Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[LeighLoyal]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would say Jabba slandered this company in his rant so maybe grounds for damages against the sevs. I'd be instructing my lawyers to sue them for full payment, damages and costs.

[WindyMiller]

So, some of us thinks he was being serious and others think it was sarcasm. In other words a large section of the readership got precisely the wrong message - an indication of just how useless a journalist Traynor was.


Maybe I was being sarcastic.

:cb

[Caversham Green]

Maybe I was being sarcastic.

:cb

Of course you were.

[green glory]

@TomEnglishSport: So Ally McCoist welcomes scrutiny of the club's finances. Sensible approach. Somebody should alert the thunderer JT, though...


Cracks appearing behind the scenes at Sevco?

[Jack Hackett]

@TomEnglishSport: So Ally McCoist welcomes scrutiny of the club's finances. Sensible approach. Somebody should alert the thunderer JT, though...


Cracks appearing behind the scenes at Sevco?

Looks like a typo from Tom there....surely that should read chunderer :greengrin

[Mr White]

Looks like a typo from Tom there....surely that should read chunderer :greengrin

Or thunder****

[Jonnyboy]

Today, in front of 46,000 fans this abortion of a club faced an outfit 145 years older than it. That club has 15 Scottish Cups which by my reckoning is 15 more than their hosts hold :wink:

[CentreLine]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21403331

The Scottish Football Association is suing former Rangers owner Craig Whyte over a £200,000 unpaid fine for bringing the game into disrepute.

Whyte, who was banned for life from any involvement in Scottish football, has ignored requests to pay the penalty that was imposed in April.

He had failed to notify the SFA that he had been disqualified as a director for seven years in 2000.

Whyte was initially fined £50,000, with three identical penalties added.

The additional fines were for separate counts of failing to follow directions from an SFA tribunal, while a charge of acting in an improper manner and against the interests of football was not proven.

At the time of the verdict, Whyte dismissed the fine as "a joke" and said any notion of him being impelled to pay up was "farcical".

And he has previously suggested taking legal action against the SFA on the issue.

Whyte bought Rangers from Sir David Murray for just £1 in May 2011 and was at the helm when the club plunged into administration almost a year ago.

[PatHead]

Need to wash my mouth out with soap but excellent article in the Sunday Mail today. They can't finally be twigging whats happening with The Rangers

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gordon-waddell-rangers-are-being-run-1647459#.URemjdmvmqE.twitter

[lapsedhibee]

Need to wash my mouth out with soap but excellent article in the Sunday Mail today. They can't finally be twigging whats happening with The Rangers

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/gordon-waddell-rangers-are-being-run-1647459#.URemjdmvmqE.twitter

It's almost as if the poisonous fat gnome who used to determine what The Rancid spewed out about the the huns is no longer there!

[greenlex]

It's almost as if the poisonous fat gnome who used to determine what The Rancid spewed out about the the huns is no longer there!
Waddell will be assistant communications Director at Ibrox within a month and have forgotten he wrote that. :greengrin

[PatHead]

Just noticed that near the bottom he has a go at Hearts as well. Must be a fenian conspiracy. Nothing to see here move along!

[Just Alf]

:greengrin

[Jonnyboy]

:greengrin

:faf: :top marks

[Saorsa]

:hilarious

[LeighLoyal]

That is a masterpiece. :thumbsup:

[jgl07]

That is a masterpiece. :thumbsup:

Better than this one:


Thanks to complete absence of Paramilitary influence.

[Hibrandenburg]

:greengrin

:not worth

[Jack Hackett]

:greengrin

Doesn't show up on my phone :-(

[jonty]

Was discussing the video with a celtic supporting account manager. he mentioned the following are among his favourites.

Made for, and aimed at, Celtic fans, the guy clearly has too much time on his hands (and a bit of talent)

You Are Dead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Bj3OnPoIM&feature=player_detailpage

Stadium of Silence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ylucI-soxJ4

Yes We Will Survive
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZMR3Xt1NIY&feature=player_detailpage

Sir Minty
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=X-4s-P8-2Rk

More Than A Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4xe6FtM-AQ

[Off the bar]

alex thomson ‏@alextomo (https://twitter.com/alextomo) #c4news (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23c4news&src=hash) TOMOBLOG - revelations later concerning Craig Whyte and a senior current Rangers official

hearts imploding and more dirt on whytey and the current buns, could be a fun if unproductive day!

[green glory]

alex thomson ‏@alextomo (https://twitter.com/alextomo) #c4news (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23c4news&src=hash) TOMOBLOG - revelations later concerning Craig Whyte and a senior current Rangers official

hearts imploding and more dirt on whytey and the current buns, could be a fun if unproductive day!

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/succulent-lamb-rack/4144

There ya go.

[Treadstone]

Can't wait for Jabbas 'blog'.

[lapsedhibee]

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/succulent-lamb-rack/4144

There ya go.

Delightful to see Traynor publicly pilloried. But why no mention of the many times he must have touted himself for a job with Airdrie United? Shirley he wasn't simply LYING when he claimed to be an Airdrie fan? :confused:

[Hank Schrader]

I find it difficult to put into words just how much I loathe Jim Traynor.

[Saorsa]

I find it difficult to put into words just how much I loathe Jim Traynor.I think you should try though :wink: :greengrin


might come out something like this though

***** ******* ******** ****** *********** :greengrin

[green glory]

I find it difficult to put into words just how much I loathe Jim Traynor.

I cannot wait to see the official zombie reply to this blog.

[Hank Schrader]

I think you should try though :wink: :greengrin


might come out something like this though

***** ******* ******** ****** *********** :greengrin

Didn't want to get a row for bypassing the old swear filter. :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Quite incredible really and given that Traynor was head of the Sports bit of the DR then little doubt in my mind that his underlings were very much in the pocket as well. Stinks to high heaven so it does, completely corrupt.

[Off the bar]

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/succulent-lamb-rack/4144

There ya go.

thanks GG,

what an utter, utter classles fud traynor is, he embodies everything that is wrong with Scottish football

[Seveno]

After reading this,I have lost all respect for Jim Traynor.

Oh wait a minute, I never had any respect for him in the first place.

[Treadstone]

After picking up his baw and taking it home, Rangers Tax Case is back, Oldco mark 3 must be on the horizon.

[JeMeSouviens]

Chuckles meets some supporters down under:

http://www.sydneytrueblues.com/2013/02/12/charles-green-qa-report/

The first 2 questions? :hmmm:


Q – Hi Charles, what school did you go to?


Q – When are you going to invite Linfield to Ibrox?

:rolleyes:

[green glory]

Chuckles meets some supporters down under:

http://www.sydneytrueblues.com/2013/02/12/charles-green-qa-report/

The first 2 questions? :hmmm:

:rolleyes:

"We need to be able to control the media".

Speaks volumes.

[littleplum]

Chuckles meets some supporters down under:

http://www.sydneytrueblues.com/2013/02/12/charles-green-qa-report/

The first 2 questions? :hmmm:



:rolleyes:

"In Feb 2012, just 2 weeks after the club went into administration we held the ORSA AGM in Perth"

Funny, I had something similar at the time too.

[silverhibee]

Craig Whyte on SSN now.

Saying he has done nothing wrong regarding The rangers and has no fear of being arrested, jim White asked him how he slept at night, "very well Jim". was the response.

[green glory]

Craig Whyte on SSN now.

Keep us updated.

[silverhibee]

Keep us updated.


Exclusive interview coming up on SSN shortly. :aok:

[LeighLoyal]

Exclusive interview coming up on SSN shortly. :aok:



Hopefully to say he still has fingers in zombie pies.


Whytey deserevs a knighthood more than dodgy Dave did. Sir Craig of Whyte, arise a knight! :aok:

[silverhibee]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11781/8499461/Rangers-chairman-Malcolm-Murray-backing-Ally-McCoist-after-turbulent-year


Still waiting for Whyte interview.

[Dan Sarf]

Whyte innocent of all charges! Fact. (According to him on SSN). "Even if I was a wide boy or a crook, do you think I would be stupid enough to attempt anything dishonest with such a high profile company?"

Em, yes.

[green glory]

Whyte innocent of all charges! Fact. (According to him on SSN). "Even if I was a wide boy or a crook, do you think I would be stupid enough to attempt anything dishonest with such a high profile company?"

Em, yes.

Stop it, I won't hear a word against Craigie. :-D

[silverhibee]

Stop it, I won't hear a word against Craigie. :-D


http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,,12606_8500131,00.html

[green glory]

http://www.skysports.com/video/inline/0,,12606_8500131,00.html

No worthwhile questions asked, Jim White playing the enraged zombie.

[Baldy Foghorn]

No worthwhile questions asked, Jim White playing the enraged zombie.

His impartiality shines through:rolleyes:

[Baldy Foghorn]

Heard fat Sally on radio, saying he is hoping for a return to top flight, with European Football coming back????

Thought Greene did not want to be involved in the top flight?? Differing messages ladies:cb

[Since90+2]

Craig Whyte's a legend.

[greenginger]

Heard fat Sally on radio, saying he is hoping for a return to top flight, with European Football coming back????

Thought Greene did not want to be involved in the top flight?? Differing messages ladies:cb

Did the sleekit little creep say WHEN he thought European Football would comeback ?

Sevco F C have put off the date of their first accounts until 2014 and EUFA rules state new clubs must have 3 years audited accounts to be admitted to European competition, making itseason 2016 - 17 before they are eligible.

Of course, they could claim they have been punished enough !

[Jim44]

Heard fat Sally on radio, saying he is hoping for a return to top flight, with European Football coming back????

Thought Greene did not want to be involved in the top flight?? Differing messages ladies:cb

If I were Green, I'd get rid of Sally for not towing the party line. I've never understood their diametrically opposing views of where their club is heading but the boss is the boss ( even if he is a bampot ) and if he has decided their future is abroad who is Fat Sally to disagree?

[LeighLoyal]

I see the BBC censored the Question Time broadcast last night when George Galloway made a demand that if the Rangers newco claim they are the same club as Rangers oldco then they pay their tax debts, the show is produced in Glasgow so it seems certain somebody there, either a Sev fan or succulent lamb wannabe, doesn't want any heat on Sevco. :confused:

[jacomo]

Did the sleekit little creep say WHEN he thought European Football would comeback ?

Sevco F C have put off the date of their first accounts until 2014 and EUFA rules state new clubs must have 3 years audited accounts to be admitted to European competition, making itseason 2016 - 17 before they are eligible.

Of course, they could claim they have been punished enough !

Ha ha ha - oops!

[Bostonhibby]

I see the BBC censored the Question Time broadcast last night when George Galloway made a demand that if the Rangers newco claim they are the same club as Rangers oldco then they pay their tax debts, the show is produced in Glasgow so it seems certain somebody there, either a Sev fan or succulent lamb wannabe, doesn't want any heat on Sevco. :confused:

Masons in high places? surely not.

[s.a.m]

Martin Williams ‏@Martin1Williams#Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/search?q=%23Rangers&src=hash) CEO Charles Green says he has written to Prime Minister David Cameron in a bid to move the Ibrox club out of Scottish football

[Bostonhibby]

Martin Williams ‏@Martin1Williams#Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/search?q=%23Rangers&src=hash) CEO Charles Green says he has written to Prime Minister David Cameron in a bid to move the Ibrox club out of Scottish football

Wonder if he attached a cheque for Dave and their majesties tax money? Doubt dodgy Dave knows where Glasgow is or cares about Cheeky Charlies mumping.

[green glory]

Martin Williams ‏@Martin1Williams#Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/search?q=%23Rangers&src=hash) CEO Charles Green says he has written to Prime Minister David Cameron in a bid to move the Ibrox club out of Scottish football

What a ****ing ********. But then what Chuckie says and does rarely corresponds. As the Orc fuds will find to their cost soon enough I'm sure.

[Gettin' Auld]

"In Feb 2012, just 2 weeks after the club went into administration we held the ORSA AGM in Perth"

Funny, I had something similar at the time too.

Ha Ha Ha!! :thumbsup:

[green glory]

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/378049/Rangers-keeper-can-t-deal-with-wage-cut

Despite Chuckle's claims that his newco Govan start-up are "cash rich".

There may be trouble ahead.

[Jack Hackett]

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/378049/Rangers-keeper-can-t-deal-with-wage-cut

Despite Chuckle's claims that his newco Govan start-up are "cash rich".

There may be trouble ahead.

Every pound in a players pocket is a pound out of Charlie's

[Billy Whizz]

Ridiculous amount of money being spent. £10k per week on an ave goalie in 3d or is that D3. If he moves on where is he likely to get that sort of wage

[green glory]

http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/tribunals/tax-and-chancery-upper-tribunal-/hearings-register.pdf

[Keith_M]

.....apparently (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/charles-green-threatens-walk-unless-1717127)


apologies for the DR link

[Spike Mandela]

Every time I glance at the DR lying about at my work it has a Rangers or Charles Green story on back page or quite often the front, it really is turning into a Rangers fanzine and is largely an irrelevant newspaper imo.

A quick look at this article and I had to laugh at the "whopping" £22m raised in particular reminding me of the "wealth off the radar" piece on Craig Whyte.

These days, honestly, who cares what happens in the Sevco boardroom?

[basehibby]

I can't stand the DR either - a paper which has consistently defied the laws of physics by plumeting lower and lower than the absolute zero of balance and objectivity in sports reporting.

But amazingly they are outdone by the ultimate trumpet Charles Green - a "personality" so grating he almost makes me feel physically sick just reading about him! Things like truth and integrity seem to be complete anathema to this guy and, frustrated at his inability to force his fantasy world down the throats of most of the population (Naive Loyal excepted) he seems to be taking out his frustrations on his boardroom colleagues now - toys out of pram is his style and this story is no exception :blah::yawn2::crazy:

[M6hibee]

Hands up, used tae get the daily record as its also really the only scots newspaper you can get doon here. No any mair. Absolute rubbish and it has quite literally turned tae a sevco fanzine.

[steakbake]

Hands up, used tae get the daily record as its also really the only scots newspaper you can get doon here. No any mair. Absolute rubbish and it has quite literally turned tae a sevco fanzine.

"turned in to..." is an interesting choice of words...

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/rangers-league-move-plans-could-get-russian-help-1-2802802

That would be a league that brok up when the Soviet Union broke up, and they are talking about merging, again. Although i like the idea of The Rangers playing in Siberia.

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21532450

:greengrin

[EuanH78]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21532450

:greengrin

This documentary won last night. Alex Thomson also won Television Journalist of the year. Royal Television Society.....Must be a papist conspiracy :greengrin

[Since90+2]

Anyone know why there is a delay in announcing the findings of the panel regarding Rangers use of dual contracts?

Pretty sure they announced they had came to a verdict about 3 weeks ago but not heard anything since.

[green glory]

Anyone know why there is a delay in announcing the findings of the panel regarding Rangers use of dual contracts?

Pretty sure they announced they had came to a verdict about 3 weeks ago but not heard anything since.

Charles Green is telling people the verdict will come on the 28th. If true, not long now.

[hibs0666]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/rangers-league-move-plans-could-get-russian-help-1-2802802

That would be a league that brok up when the Soviet Union broke up, and they are talking about merging, again. Although i like the idea of The Rangers playing in Siberia.

I hate to say it but I'm with Green - a Scottish league has had its day and we need to amalgamate to save the game.

[Since90+2]

I hate to say it but I'm with Green - a Scottish league has had its day and we need to amalgamate to save the game.

With who? The Irish League? Welsh?

England will have no interest in a merger with us so as usual Green is talking nonsense.

[JimBHibees]

I hate to say it but I'm with Green - a Scottish league has had its day and we need to amalgamate to save the game. Yeah because Hibs v Rochdale would be a real moneyspinner. No disrespect to any Rochdalians reading the board. :greengrin

[LancashireHibby]

Yeah because Hibs v Rochdale would be a real moneyspinner. No disrespect to any Rochdalians reading the board. :greengrin
I'd be delighted with it, personally :greengrin

[MrSmith]

With who? The Irish League? Welsh?

England will have no interest in a merger with us so as usual Green is talking nonsense.

Even the mere thought of that merger is a fabulous contradiction! :wink:

[JimBHibees]

I'd be delighted with it, personally :greengrin

No doubt given your travelling. :greengrin

[hibs0666]

Yeah because Hibs v Rochdale would be a real moneyspinner. No disrespect to any Rochdalians reading the board. :greengrin

It's all about TV and commercial revenues I'm afraid. Hibs will make more money if playing against Rochdale in a UK league than playing against Dundee united in a Scottish League.

[jgl07]

It's all about TV and commercial revenues I'm afraid. Hibs will make more money if playing against Rochdale in a UK league than playing against Dundee united in a Scottish League.

Maybe Hibs would be better off financially in League One or League Two. They would certainly be vastly better off in the Championship.

However there is very little in it for the English Clubs. There would be next to no additional TV revenue, certainly for the lower divisions. Scottish Clubs would bring few visiting supporters (apart from Rangers and Celtic and we know what happened the last time the former played in Manchester!).

Only around 15 Scottish clubs would have the support to hack it in the Football League. The PL clubs are not particularly keen on Celtic (or even Sevco) coming in. The likes of Hibs, Aberdeen, and the future Sevco West might have something to add but the travelling costs would increase. Even travelling within England is a strain for some League Two clubs and more so for Conference Clubs.

How about Exeter or Plymouth travelling to a mid-week match in Inverness? There are a lot of mid-week matches in the English lower divisions (46 League matches to fit in!).

[JeMeSouviens]

I hate to say it but I'm with Green - a Scottish league has had its day and we need to amalgamate to save the game.

Me too. There is now no way anyone but the NewHuns could ever bridge the gap to Celtic. Their wage budget is at least 6 times that of any other SPL club. Yet they can't compete in Europe because the Scottish tv audience is tiny. UEFA need to realise that the small countries can't compete and merge things into regional leagues: Germany-Austria-Switzerland, France-Holland-Belgium, Spain-Portugal, Scotland-England-Wales-Ireland with an appropriate regional pyramid underneath each top league.

Edinburgh's sole representative in a GB&I premier league could do quite well. :wink:

[hibs0666]

Maybe Hibs would be better off financially in League One or League Two. They would certainly be vastly better off in the Championship.

However there is very little in it for the English Clubs. There would be next to no additional TV revenue, certainly for the lower divisions. Scottish Clubs would bring few visiting supporters (apart from Rangers and Celtic and we know what happened the last time the former played in Manchester!).

Only around 15 Scottish clubs would have the support to hack it in the Football League. The PL clubs are not particularly keen on Celtic (or even Sevco) coming in. The likes of Hibs, Aberdeen, and the future Sevco West might have something to add but the travelling costs would increase. Even travelling within England is a strain for some League Two clubs and more so for Conference Clubs.

How about Exeter or Plymouth travelling to a mid-week match in Inverness? There are a lot of mid-week matches in the English lower divisions (46 League matches to fit in!).

The English leagues are under severe political scrutiny at the moment, and so are vulnerable to a politically-motivated deal to create a national league (if the demand were to come from Scottish clubs).

Make no bones about it, Scottish football is close to bankruptcy. Youth development is not proving to be the answer either and our league is not attracting any investment. The status quo will not sustain a professional league of any quality for very much longer. Radical change will come, and Chuckie might just be the catalyst to make it happen.

[CropleyWasGod]

The English leagues are under severe political scrutiny at the moment, and so are vulnerable to a politically-motivated deal to create a national league (if the demand were to come from Scottish clubs).

Make no bones about it, Scottish football is close to bankruptcy. Youth development is not proving to be the answer either and our league is not attracting any investment. The status quo will not sustain a professional league of any quality for very much longer. Radical change will come, and Chuckie might just be the catalyst to make it happen.

Can you expand on that?

[hibs0666]

Can you expand on that?

All it takes is a couple of clubs to fold during the season and the game's a bogey.

No club in Scotland is running on a sustainable basis and, as we've seen with the zombies, there is only one possible outcome.

[CropleyWasGod]

All it takes is a couple of clubs to fold during the season and the game's a bogey.

No club in Scotland is running on a sustainable basis and, as we've seen with the zombies, there is only one possible outcome.

That is certainly not true. Hibs, for one.

If a couple of clubs fold, so what? They will find their level, and every other club will adjust accordingly. That's what has happened with the RFC debacle.... all other clubs will cut their cloth, or suffer the consequences.

[hibs0666]

That is certainly not true. Hibs, for one.

If a couple of clubs fold, so what? They will find their level, and every other club will adjust accordingly. That's what has happened with the RFC debacle.... all other clubs will cut their cloth, or suffer the consequences.

Hibs are consistently losing £1 million a year and need to flog at least a player a season to balance the books! If the SPL started with 12 teams and 2 folded, the league would become a total farce.

[CropleyWasGod]

Hibs are consistently losing £1 million a year and need to flog at least a player a season to balance the books! If the SPL started with 12 teams and 2 folded, the league would become a total farce.

No they're not. The loss in the accounts was £900k, the majority of which was depreciation. The club operates a break-even policy, which means we spend what we take in. That is sustainable, in my book.

[greenginger]

If Scottish and English leagues amalgamated I think we could all kiss goodbye to ever seeing European Football at Easter Road or winning a national cup again.

It would also be the end of the Scottish national side, we would have to support a UK side with 3 lions on the shirt and probably the Lion Rempant on the Subs tracksuits.

If Green thinks its a good idea its because there is money in it for Rangers, and ,most importantly, for himself.

Touch nothing Green advocates, he is poison. Ask any Sheffield United fan !

[hibs0666]

No they're not. The loss in the accounts was £900k, the majority of which was depreciation. The club operates a break-even policy, which means we spend what we take in. That is sustainable, in my book.

Well, over the last five years, I'm seeing a club with an operating loss of £7.7 million (that has been offset by £8.7 million in player sales) and a debt that has increased by £3.6 million as a result. I still don't see that as a sustainable situation.

[CropleyWasGod]

Well, over the last five years, I'm seeing a club with an operating loss of £7.7 million (that has been offset by £8.7 million in player sales) and a debt that has increased by £3.6 million as a result. I still don't see that as a sustainable situation.

So we have actually made £1m in that period?

Hibs have been a selling club for as long as I've watched them. That is how they, and many others, sustain themselves. It's worked for that length of time, and will continue to do so.

[M6hibee]

Green doesn't seem to comprehend that any chance of a league merger down south went when the cretins he plays up to made a mess of Manchester city centre a few years back. That's the average confusion of the Hun. Make a shame of themselves when playing in England and then expect the English leagues to welcome them with open arms

[hibs0666]

So we have actually made £1m in that period?

Hibs have been a selling club for as long as I've watched them. That is how they, and many others, sustain themselves. It's worked for that length of time, and will continue to do so.

Unfortunately that model doesn't work any more.

[CropleyWasGod]

Unfortunately that model doesn't work any more.

So if it doesn't work (and I'm not sure I agree with you) we will adjust accordingly. Smaller and cheaper squads, just as any commercial organisation has to do in the face of decreasing income. That's not nice for the punter, of course, but if all of our competitors are doing it then Hibs are well-placed to be relatively successful.

[jgl07]

Well, over the last five years, I'm seeing a club with an operating loss of £7.7 million (that has been offset by £8.7 million in player sales) and a debt that has increased by £3.6 million as a result. I still don't see that as a sustainable situation.

So Hibs will be building a new training ground and a new stand every five years then?

[EuanH78]

So Hibs will be building a new training ground and a new stand every five years then?

Excellent point. Goes to highlight just how well the model does work.

[Malthibby]

We need to get our own house in order, in Scotland.
Cannot be ersed with folk wanting to run away to Engerland or anywhere else as a non-answer to our problems.
Finances are tight, so we deal with it, we need alternative models, let's find them here.
I simply do not believe that we don't have the wherewithal to find an answer to our footie issues ourselves; we are
not the only wee country with professional football leagues.
GG

[hibs0666]

So if it doesn't work (and I'm not sure I agree with you) we will adjust accordingly. Smaller and cheaper squads, just as any commercial organisation has to do in the face of decreasing income. That's not nice for the punter, of course, but if all of our competitors are doing it then Hibs are well-placed to be relatively successful.

All that would mean is that we end up being successful in the baldy-guys-fighting-over-comb competition. We need to think bigger and that means being radical.

[green glory]

This thread is getting too quiet. We're all so engrossed at imminent Jambogeddon we're forgetting about the funny nuclear winter at Ibroke.

Chucky was telling the Australian supporters the other week the SPL commission would deliver it's findings on the 28th ie tomorrow. He usually vomits lie after lie, but this date may not be far off reality.

Looking forward to this immensely.

[Newry Hibs]

This thread is getting too quiet. We're all so engrossed at imminent Jambogeddon we're forgetting about the funny nuclear winter at Ibroke.

Chucky was telling the Australian supporters the other week the SPL commission would deliver it's findings on the 28th ie tomorrow. He usually vomits lie after lie, but this date may not be far off reality.

Looking forward to this immensely.

It has been very queit about this decision. Makes me think CG knows what the result is and it's favourable to them (i.e. a bit of a telling off, but no trophy loss) - otherwise I'm sure he would have been mouthing off about them being victims etc etc ad nauseam.

[Keith_M]

All that would mean is that we end up being successful in the baldy-guys-fighting-over-comb competition. We need to think bigger and that means being radical.

You're right, we need to employ a more ambitious financial model. We could splash out on a few World Cup winning stars and we'd be competing with the likes of Bayern, ManU, Barcelona et al before you know it. We'll be CL winners within five years


Wonder why no-one's though of it before :greengrin

[s.a.m]

STV Sport‏@STVSportThe SPL will announce the verdict of Lord Nimmo Smith's investigation into Rangers at 12pm on Thursday, February 28 http://sport.stv.tv (http://t.co/Cq1deXcbVO)

[LeighLoyal]

Had a peak at Sevco media and saw a thread about why ESPN should aplogise to THEM (I.E the sectarian newco sc um) and anti Irish/Catholic chants are acceptable when the Catholic church has problems. :confused:

These Sevco Orcs will never get it. They shame Scotland all over the globe.

[LeighLoyal]

STV Sport‏@STVSportThe SPL will announce the verdict of Lord Nimmo Smith's investigation into Rangers at 12pm on Thursday, February 28 http://sport.stv.tv (http://t.co/Cq1deXcbVO)



Investigation into Oldco. They are not Sevco's titles.

[StevieC]

Investigation into Oldco. They are not Sevco's titles.

Don't tell Chuckie that, he'll go into meltdown! :wink:

[green glory]

Investigation into Oldco. They are not Sevco's titles.

Of course that's true, so they won't mind if the titles are stripped from the Oldco. Oh erm wait.

:-D

[Moulin Yarns]

STV Sport‏@STVSportThe SPL will announce the verdict of Lord Nimmo Smith's investigation into Rangers at 12pm on Thursday, February 28 http://sport.stv.tv (http://t.co/Cq1deXcbVO)


Just seen Chris McLaughlin say the same.

(Arma)geddon with it, will ya???

[LeighLoyal]

Will be fab to watch the bigot horde and Traynor in fury mode IF oldco's gong's are stripped. It could open a can of worms regards compensation for other spl teams cheated out of prize money, European qualification and in the Euro competitions themselves, plus the relegation of spl clubs if every false player registration means a 0-3 result... makes me think it'll be a whitewash, but wait nobody can sue newco because .... they're NOT their titles or the same club.

[AndyM_1875]

Will be fab to watch the bigot horde and Traynor in fury mode IF oldco's gong's are stripped. It could open a can of worms regards compensation for other spl teams cheated out of prize money, European qualification and in the Euro competitions themselves, plus the relegation of spl clubs if every false player registration means a 0-3 result... makes me think it'll be a whitewash, but wait nobody can sue newco because .... they're NOT their titles or the same club.

There will be some language about 'learning lessons' and 'tightening up procedures' etc but I think you're right. Nothing will really happen.

[hibs0666]

STV Sport‏@STVSportThe SPL will announce the verdict of Lord Nimmo Smith's investigation into Rangers at 12pm on Thursday, February 28 http://sport.stv.tv (http://t.co/Cq1deXcbVO)

I'm hearing that it's an open-and-shut case against them, they will be found guilty and Strathclyde's finest have been involved in the preparation leading up to the announcement.

Could be right laugh tomorrow. :thumbsup:

[Jack]

I'm hearing that it's an open-and-shut case against them, they will be found guilty and Strathclyde's finest have been involved in the preparation leading up to the announcement.

Could be right laugh tomorrow. :thumbsup:

Do you mean they’ve posted armed guards outside everyone's home who has been part of the investigation, reads the report, supplied the paper, printing and postage – and I suppose the posties who have delivered them.

I suspect PapalGoogle will be accused of all sorts for listing the report within the first 140 pages.

[green glory]

I'm hearing that it's an open-and-shut case against them, they will be found guilty and Strathclyde's finest have been involved in the preparation leading up to the announcement.

Could be right laugh tomorrow. :thumbsup:

Apparently Nimmo Smith also has the legal authority to apply sanctions against BOTH Oldco and Newco.

http://m.stv.tv/sport/football/clubs/rangers/215653-rangers-to-learn-spl-title-stripping-investigation-fate-on-thursday/

[green glory]

Let it begin.

9404

[LeighLoyal]

I'm hearing that it's an open-and-shut case against them, they will be found guilty and Strathclyde's finest have been involved in the preparation leading up to the announcement.

Could be right laugh tomorrow. :thumbsup:


Please be true. The Daily Sevcord will have to put out a black issue. :aok:

[grunt]

Chick Young and Billy Dodds both very annoying on Sportsound.
Young - "we need to draw a line under this, the players have said they did nothing wrong".
So that's it, is it Chick? If the players say so, we should just drop it?
He seems to fail to understand the meaning of the word "investigation".

[Hibernia Na Eir]

there's simply no reason why huns shouldn't be stripped of titles tomorrow. they breached rules. simples!

[Hibernia Na Eir]

Please be true. The Daily Sevcord will have to put out a black issue. :aok:

it can only have one outcome.

the dirty, manky, cheating teady bears. Ready, aye. (Ready for a stripping!!!)

[Spike Mandela]

I'm surprised we haven't had any leaks of the decision so far. Hope it's not a damp squib like the tax case.

[marti1875]

I'm surprised we haven't had any leaks of the decision so far. Hope it's not a damp squib like the tax case.

:agree: I'm much the same.....waiting on the outcome more in hope than expectation unfortunately.
You never know, they could surprise us and strip them bare of those titles then we can sit back and watch as the orcs go off their heids....again! :greengrin

[hibs0666]

there's simply no reason why huns shouldn't be stripped of titles tomorrow. they breached rules. simples!

I reckon they'll be found guilty and oldco will receive a token fine.

[WindyMiller]

I'm surprised we haven't had any leaks of the decision so far. Hope it's not a damp squib like the tax case.


Radio Scotland just mentioned that there will be leaks, as Sevco and the SFA will get the report earlier than 12 noon.

[Jack]

Chick Young and Billy Dodds both very annoying on Sportsound.
Young - "we need to draw a line under this, the players have said they did nothing wrong".
So that's it, is it Chick? If the players say so, we should just drop it?
He seems to fail to understand the meaning of the word "investigation".

I don't see the problem with that.

The players are only hired by the club and IMO its not up to them to fathom out whether the wages they get are legitimate.

IMO its upto the club to be working within the rules and regulations they are bound by and, at a push, their handsomely paid advisers/agents* to pay due diligence.

No, the players can keep what they won on the pitch but the club has to be severely dealt with for systematically breaking the rules.

*If not that then WTF are they paid for? They have to provide a service which is more than lining their own pockets.

[jonty]

Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaug
(http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug)#Rangers (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Rangers) will not be stripped of league titles. More to follow... #BBCSport (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23BBCSport)

WTF!

[Saorsa]

Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaug
(http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug)#Rangers (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Rangers) will not be stripped of league titles. More to follow... #BBCSport (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23BBCSport)

WTF!Really! What a bunch of mealy mouthed gutless ****in' cowards.

[jonty]

Really! What a bunch of mealy mouthed gutless ****in' cowards.
To be fair, it wouldn't be so bad if Green, McCoist and the fans etc admitted the FACT that The Rangers don't have any titles.

[s.a.m]

RT @STVSport (http://www.hibs.net/STVSport): Rangers oldco fined £250,000 but will keep their SPL titles http://bit.ly/YBw0WK (http://t.co/phzjiyKxYs)

[Saorsa]

RT @STVSport (http://www.hibs.net/STVSport): Rangers oldco fined £250,000 but will keep their SPL titles http://bit.ly/YBw0WK (http://t.co/phzjiyKxYs)



The commission has ruled it was necessary for Rangers to declare the payments and, as such, has declared players improperly registered were ineligible to participate in league matches.So they played players that were improperly registerd (cheated) but they get tae keep the titles they cheated! :bitchy: gutless ****in' ***** bags and cowards.

[HibbyDave]

RT @STVSport (http://www.hibs.net/STVSport): Rangers oldco fined £250,000 but will keep their SPL titles http://bit.ly/YBw0WK (http://t.co/phzjiyKxYs)

Which firm would pay the fine? More importantly......where will the funds go to?

[adhibs]

Joke of a decisision. completely unsurprised.

[JeMeSouviens]

So Spartans can get thrown out of the Cup for fielding a player ineligible because his registration lacked a second signature but the Huns get to keep league titles gained through years of fielding payers ineligible because they were getting huge extra off the books payments in the name of aggressive tax avoidance?

Welcome to Scottish football - where the rules* are applied with a great big dose of fear and a massive dollop of favour. :rolleyes:



* just as soon as we've made them up.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaug
(http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug)#Rangers (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23Rangers) will not be stripped of league titles. More to follow... #BBCSport (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23BBCSport)

WTF!

Better get the padded room ready for FalkirkHibby!

[jonty]

Alasdair Lamont @BBCAlLamont
The judgement from Lord Nimmo Smith's independent commission will say no unfair competitive advantage was gained on the field.


I'm not sure how they can judge that?


Alasdair Lamont @BBCAlLamont
The fine has been imposed for an "administrative error" as non-disclosure had effect of rendering all the registered players ineligible.

[Saorsa]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--RXH94zcwXI/Tb4PwivfW6I/AAAAAAAAAH4/l66uSMrAeAI/s1600/pkfz-whitewash-070926.jpg
I'm not sure how they can judge that?

[EuanH78]

Unjust decision IMO, administrative error?

Is this a joke?

[LeighLoyal]

Better get the padded room ready for FalkirkHibby!



A white wash was to be expected of course, but they're not Sevco's titles, they belong to a dead club. Total joke though! :confused:

[Saorsa]

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b168/jamie1971/SPL.jpg

[Hibernia&Alba]

The establishment closes ranks. Masonic handshakes for all, Brother Nimmo to end the reading of the inquiry's findings with the phrase 'we are the people'. :wink:

It will be interesting to hear the reasons given for this decision.

[JimBHibees]

Quite incredible.

Rangers oldco has been fined £250,000 by an independent commission investigating allegations of failing to correctly register players. Full details of the judgement are to be published at noon, but it had earlier emerged that Rangers would not be stripped of league titles.

"The judgement states that side letters should have been disclosed, but oldco management failed to do this. But the commission found no unfair competitive advantage was gained on the field. Non-disclosure had effect of rendering all the registered players ineligible, so a fine was imposed for an administrative error.

"Rangers won the league five times in the period under investigation 2001-2011, in 2003, 2005, 2009, 2010 and 2011."

This bit is incredible how are they calling it an administrative error when it was failure to disclose payments which render the players ineligible. How they can say they gained no competitive advantage makes no logical sense whatsoever. Quite unbelievable.

[LeighLoyal]

the whole thing should have been handled by UEFA. Nobody is going to accept this farce except deadco fans, but bottom line it's hugely damaging to the remaining credibility of Scottish football.

[Sweet Left Peg]

So Spartans can get thrown out of the Cup for fielding a player ineligible because his registration lacked a second signature but the Huns get to keep league titles gained through years of fielding payers ineligible because they were getting huge extra off the books payments in the name of aggressive tax avoidance?

Welcome to Scottish football - where the rules* are applied with a great big dose of fear and a massive dollop of favour. :rolleyes
* just as soon as we've made them up.


This puts things into a rather interesting perspective. Looking forward to hearing the reasons for this decision.

[jonty]

Quite incredible.

Rangers oldco has been fined £250,000 by an independent commission investigating allegations of failing to correctly register players. Full details of the judgement are to be published at noon, but it had earlier emerged that Rangers would not be stripped of league titles.

"The judgement states that side letters should have been disclosed, but oldco management failed to do this. But the commission found no unfair competitive advantage was gained on the field. Non-disclosure had effect of rendering all the registered players ineligible, so a fine was imposed for an administrative error.

"Rangers won the league five times in the period under investigation 2001-2011, in 2003, 2005, 2009, 2010 and 2011."

This bit is incredible how are they calling it an administrative error when it was failure to disclose payments which render the players ineligible. How they can say they gained no competitive advantage makes no logical sense whatsoever. Quite unbelievable.

I guess what they're saying is that if the side letters had been disclosed then it would have been ok and not against the rules. In its simplest and most innocent form, it was an admin error.

[jonty]

full verdict http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/Commission%20Decision%2028%2002%202013.pdf

[Peevemor]

I guess what they're saying is that if the side letters had been disclosed then it would have been ok and not against the rules. In its simplest and most innocent form, it was an admin error.

Except it wasn't innocent - it was fraud.

[jonty]

Except it wasn't innocent - it was fraud.

I agree with that - it was far from innocent. They knowingly withheld the information.

Surely the fact that it was an admin error makes them ineligible to play.

[Dan Sarf]

(6) Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL Rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed upon Rangers FC;

I think we all know what those other reasons were **offers funny handshake**

[LeighLoyal]

I agree with that - it was far from innocent. They knowingly withheld the information.

Surely the fact that it was an admin error makes them ineligible to play.


I beleive the SPL have to vote to accept this ludicrous Brother Nimmo outcome. Anybody clarify this?

[VickMackie]

I'm not a lord but basic financial knowledge tells me that if you pay through a vehicle that means you pay less tax and hide it you have more money to purchase other players you wouldn't otherwise be able to afford you gain an advantage on two fronts because you have two players instead of one.

Also breaching the rules by not disclosing them.

It's all just a ploy so they don't lose their world record and keep the orcs from going mental.

[Lucius Apuleius]

(6) Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL Rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed upon Rangers FC;

I think we all know what those other reasons were **offers funny handshake**

<------ Just like that one :wink:

[Hibs Class]

Quite incredible.

Rangers oldco has been fined £250,000 by an independent commission investigating allegations of failing to correctly register players. Full details of the judgement are to be published at noon, but it had earlier emerged that Rangers would not be stripped of league titles.

"The judgement states that side letters should have been disclosed, but oldco management failed to do this. But the commission found no unfair competitive advantage was gained on the field. Non-disclosure had effect of rendering all the registered players ineligible, so a fine was imposed for an administrative error.

"Rangers won the league five times in the period under investigation 2001-2011, in 2003, 2005, 2009, 2010 and 2011."

This bit is incredible how are they calling it an administrative error when it was failure to disclose payments which render the players ineligible. How they can say they gained no competitive advantage makes no logical sense whatsoever. Quite unbelievable.

In contrast, noted this story yesterday:

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/youth-football-club-thrown-out-of-cup-over-error-1-2811747

Impossible to fathom today's decision without considering corruption.

[lapsedhibee]

So Spartans can get thrown out of the Cup for fielding a player ineligible because his registration lacked a second signature but the Huns get to keep league titles gained through years of fielding payers ineligible because they were getting huge extra off the books payments in the name of aggressive tax avoidance?

Welcome to Scottish football - where the rules* are applied with a great big dose of fear and a massive dollop of favour. :rolleyes:

* just as soon as we've made them up.

Indeed.

One club gets eliminated from a competition for an administrative error affecting a single player in a single match.

A second club gets fined £250,000. If you divide that by the number of games played by ineligible players over the period, it probably works out at about £20 per player per match.

So - elimination from a competition, or a £20 fine, for the same offence. And yet people say Scottish Fitba's corrupt!

[SteveHFC]

****ing Joke.

[jonty]

http://fspeirs.wordpress.com/2012/07/21/why-rangers-must-lose-their-titles/

So, if you don't declare the side letters (contracts) then the player registration is invalid, leading the player ineligible to play.

Admin error or not, it wasn't a one off.
Who was in charge of player registrations?
Was it the same person over the period?
Did they have prior experience of registering players?

[CropleyWasGod]

Indeed.

One club gets eliminated from a competition for an administrative error affecting a single player in a single match.

A second club gets fined £250,000. If you divide that by the number of games played by ineligible players over the period, it probably works out at about £20 per player per match.

So - elimination from a competition, or a £20 fine, for the same offence. And yet people say Scottish Fitba's corrupt!

The final payment will be much less than that. If the liquidator accepts the debt, then it will be paid at xpence in the £.

[LeighLoyal]

From the SPL Rules...

D1.13 A Club must, as a condition of Registration and for a Player to be eligible to Play in Official Matches, deliver the executed originals of all Contracts of Service and amendments and/or extensions to Contracts of Service and all other agreements providing for payment, other than for reimbursement of expenses actually incurred, between that Club and Player, to the Secretary, within fourteen days of such Contract of Service or other agreement being entered into, amended and/or, as the case may be, extended.



:confused::confused::confused:

[carnoustiehibee]

Who pays the fine?

[lapsedhibee]

The final payment will be much less than that. If the liquidator accepts the debt, then it will be paid at xpence in the £.

Ok then call it fourpence, against being thrown out of a competition. Farquing outrageous!

[CropleyWasGod]

Who pays the fine?

It comes out of the proceeds of the liquidation.

[MrSmith]

Scottish Football is dead! Today seen the final nail being hammered in with integrity burned, buried, scattered and delivered to all those who brought the game into disrepute!

Is it worth it any more? No! I hope all club chairman recognise the seriousness of today's outcome!

[Geo_1875]

I'm not sure about the references to Rangers, oldco and newco. He seems to imply that they were Rangers oldco and are now Rangers newco, in some way suggesting a continuity which we keep hearing about from their supporters. If he is stating that there was a line drawn in the sand which means Rangers won 54 titles, ceased to exist as a football club and can not add to that total, that's fine with me. If Green's Rangers insist that there is some form of continuity the SPL should demand immediate payment of the £250,000 fine and HMRC should fire off a letter requesting prompt payment of the huge sums outstanding.

[Saorsa]

And tae think somebody suggested tae me on the yams cup thread that there is nae corruption in Scottish fitba. These ***** are that twisted they couldnae lie straight in bed.

[Sudds_1]

(6) Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL Rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed upon Rangers FC;I think we all know what those other reasons were **offers funny handshake**Nimmo Smith - Hun or Goat molester.Or both? Discuss.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm not sure about the references to Rangers, oldco and newco. He seems to imply that they were Rangers oldco and are now Rangers newco, in some way suggesting a continuity which we keep hearing about from their supporters. If he is stating that there was a line drawn in the sand which means Rangers won 54 titles, ceased to exist as a football club and can not add to that total, that's fine with me. If Green's Rangers insist that there is some form of continuity the SPL should demand immediate payment of the £250,000 fine and HMRC should fire off a letter requesting prompt payment of the huge sums outstanding.

IMO, he is not saying anything about continuity or otherwise. Neither should he be, since that wasn't his remit.

He has decided that OldCo broke the rules. He has decided that NewCo didn't.

That's it, as far as his responsibilities are concerned.

[Gatecrasher]

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b168/jamie1971/SPL.jpg
says it all for me, I'm completely disgusted by the people who run Scottish football.

[Dan Sarf]

<------ Just like that one :wink:

Sorry, Lucius, don't get it. Please enlighten.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Sorry, Lucius, don't get it. Please enlighten.

I cannae, its a secret. :wink:

[rubber mal]

I guess what they're saying is that if the side letters had been disclosed then it would have been ok and not against the rules. In its simplest and most innocent form, it was an admin error.

But having dual contracts is against the rules though. What they're saying is that it's OK to break them (if you're Rangers).

Absolute disgrace.

[CropleyWasGod]

But having dual contracts is against the rules though. What they're saying is that it's OK to break them (if you're Rangers).

Absolute disgrace.

No they're not. They have found them guilty of breaking the rules.

It's the punishment that is the issue.

[Dan Sarf]

I cannae, its a secret. :wink:

Don't want to know anyway.

[green glory]

The last year has established the football governing authorities in Scotland are simply not up to the task. Without raking over all the detail again, I think it's fair to say everyone has to take stock after today's SPL enquiry findings.

Guilt was established but the punishment embarrassingly lenient. 250k fine for a company now in liquidation.

Rangers in whatever form are clearly untouchable, when you consider the punishments doled out to amateur and pitifully boys clubs for rule transgressions.

A way has to be found for football in this country to leave the SFA, the SPL and The Rangers behind.

[onionman]

The Russian oil magnates are already greasing the UEFA wheel for cross-national leagues we will soon become a part of something like this.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Don't want to know anyway.

Good.

[JeMeSouviens]

Today is insult to injury but Scottish football's death as a sporting competition was confirmed last year. The SFA/SPL pursued a strategy that said nobody must ever question or threaten the Old Firm duopoly and even if one of them mismanages itself to actual extinction we will rewrite, reinterpret or just ignore our rules as necessary to pretend they haven't and ensure that their franchise is filled going forward.

We have about as much right to call ourselves a sport as wrestling now. :rolleyes:

Going forward? I would go cap in hand to the English and UEFA and beg them to include us in their pyramid with the SPL replaced by League 1 North. I think Hibs have the infrastructure and support base to get to the Championship now and the long term potential to be Edinburgh's premiership club.

European football is poised to move to supranational leagues to support the ambitions of the big clubs in small countries, possibly with a pan-European top level to replace the CL and support the ambitions of the big clubs in big countries. We should be at the forefront of this change or our lingering decline will go on and on.

[gramskiwood]

Totally disgusted at the corruption in Scottish Football. That's me finnished with it for good.:grr:

[Hibs Class]

No they're not. They have found them guilty of breaking the rules.

It's the punishment that is the issue.


If I read it right, it's not quite as simple as that.

They have found them guilty of breaking the rules in relation to non-disclosure and have punished them for that, apparently regarding it as an admin error.

They "are not satisfied that any breach of the Rules has been established" in respect of fielding ineligible players so there is no punishment for that. Reading their rationale for that part of the judgement (paras 84-89) the logic applied appears to me to be flawed, or at the very least inconsistent with previous judgements in Scotland in relation to player registrations and eligibility.

[Scottie]

Whats the BIG shock here ?

Rangers have run Scottish football for decades NOT the SFA.

Whatever guise Rangers or Newco Rangers are NOTHING will change.

The proofs been there for generations.Just ask your father,grandfather,great grandfather.

They have got away with murder and will continue to do so until the weak SFA stand up to these bigoted clowns.

RECONSTRUCTION give me a break. As long as some form of Rangers exists then Scottish football will be run and DOMINATED by these secterian/bigoted MORONS.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Don't want to know anyway.

Good. :dummytit:

[Hibbyradge]

I don't care.

It makes precisely no difference to me or Hibs whether Rangers have 50 titles or 5.

[CropleyWasGod]

If I read it right, it's not quite as simple as that.

They have found them guilty of breaking the rules in relation to non-disclosure and have punished them for that, apparently regarding it as an admin error.

They "are not satisfied that any breach of the Rules has been established" in respect of fielding ineligible players so there is no punishment for that. Reading their rationale for that part of the judgement (paras 84-89) the logic applied appears to me to be flawed, or at the very least inconsistent with previous judgements in Scotland in relation to player registrations and eligibility.

My answer was in reply to the post that said "it's okay for Rangers to break the rules".

I am saying that that wasn't the Tribunal's finding. They have found that rules were broken, whatever rules they were.

I am also saying that,like you, it's the lack of consistency in the punishment that is particularly galling. However, one must also remember that previous eligibility-related punishments were handed down by the SFA. The SFA had nothing to do with this process, IIRC.

[JimBHibees]

I don't care.

It makes precisely no difference to me or Hibs whether Rangers have 50 titles or 5.

Or whether all clubs are treated the same as per the rules?

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Oh the joys of working in Glasgow

[green glory]

Oh the joys of working in Glasgow

My commiserations.

[Dan Sarf]

Good. :dummytit:

Don't care what you think.

[matty_f]

The finding says that there was no provision to retrospective make a player ineligible, which the SPL accepted. Apparently it was 'understood' that was what would happen but there's nothing in the rules.
Amateurs.

[adhibs]

Nimmo Smith - Hun or Goat molester.Or both? Discuss.

Definately a goat molestar, probably a hun.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Don't care what you think.

Reciprocated. :wink:

[Dan Sarf]

Reciprocated. :wink:

Not listening.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Not listening.

Booger me, you my missus?

[Dan Sarf]

Booger me, you my missus?

No thanks. And no.

[Oscar T Grouch]

Totally disgusted at the corruption in Scottish Football. That's me finnished with it for good.:grr:

:agree: pile o pish, the punishment does not fit the crime, it fits the perpetrator, no further proof needed to see how far gone our national game has descended. RIP Scottish fitba :titanic:

[blindsummit]

And now the establishment will move on to the final stage of the scam. Mark my words. Rangers will be re-instated in the SPL next year. 100% guaranteed.

[Lucius Apuleius]

And now the establishment will move on to the final stage of the scam. Mark my words. Rangers will be re-instated in the SPL next year. 100% guaranteed.

OooooooooooooKay, so how is this going to be manipulated?

[BarneyK]

And now the establishment will move on to the final stage of the scam. Mark my words. Rangers will be re-instated in the SPL next year. 100% guaranteed.

Not a chance

[Pete]

OooooooooooooKay, so how is this going to be manipulated?

Funny handshakes?

[Lucius Apuleius]

Funny handshakes?

:greengrin Can't see it personally.

[Saorsa]

I wonder how much money was wasted on this sham investigation and it's 'findings'. Might as well just have said we're no going tae do anything instead of playing out this farce.

[Jack Hackett]

OooooooooooooKay, so how is this going to be manipulated?

By making sure hertz make it to the end of the season but not the beginning of next, then offering their membership to Sevco.

Call me paranoid but these chancers are capable of anything.

[Lucius Apuleius]

By making sure hertz make it to the end of the season but not the beginning of next, then offering their membership to Sevco.

Call me paranoid but these chancers are capable of anything.

Okay, you are paranoid.

[green glory]

By making sure hertz make it to the end of the season but not the beginning of next, then offering their membership to Sevco.

Call me paranoid but these chancers are capable of anything.

It's the SPL chairmen who would have to vote for that. I'd like to see them having the balls to get together and ensure a replacement single body for the three we have now. Total exclusion of a certain Govan club too.

[marinello59]

I don't care.

It makes precisely no difference to me or Hibs whether Rangers have 50 titles or 5.

:agree:
It shouldn't matter to the majority of Scottish Fans who are already happy that sevco have no titles, this is just kicking over the corpse surely?

[blindsummit]

Not a chance

There wasn't a chance they would escape administration/liquidation.
There wasn't a chance they would lose the FTT.
There wasn't a chance D&D wouldn't be proved to have a conflict of interest.
There wasn't a chance they would get caught out for alienation of assets.
There wasn't a chance the new club would get into the league over more worthy contenders
There wasn't a chance they would escape punishment for dual contracts.
and so on.

[Part/Time Supporter]

I wonder how much money was wasted on this sham investigation and it's 'findings'. Might as well just have said we're no going tae do anything instead of playing out this farce.

I think this will have been pushed forward by Celtic. I can't imagine that the other clubs were particularly bothered by it.

There was the precedent of the Livingston "amateurs" (eg Kachloul) in 2004/05 and that didn't result in anything more than a fine for improper registration.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/livingston/4602415.stm

[Saorsa]

:agree:
It shouldn't matter to the majority of Scottish Fans who are already happy that sevco have no titles, this is just kicking over the corpse surely?It matters because it shows once again that were ever possible and if they can get away with it a different set of rules will be applied by those who run the game, corrupt and rotten tae the core. Clerical/administrative errors :faf: nae advantage gained :faf: if there was nae advantage tae be gained why were the doing it in the first place? They must think folk are zipped up the back tae come out with a crock of **** like that and expect them tae accept it as fair and proper, it was complete sham.

[BarneyK]

There wasn't a chance they would escape administration/liquidation.
There wasn't a chance they would lose the FTT.
There wasn't a chance D&D wouldn't be proved to have a conflict of interest.
There wasn't a chance they would get caught out for alienation of assets.
There wasn't a chance the new club would get into the league over more worthy contenders
There wasn't a chance they would escape punishment for dual contracts.
and so on.

Did they escape administration/liquidation? I must have missed that. Anyway, as for the others, they were always highly likely, especially the entry into the league over more worthy contenders. I don't think anyone seriously thought they were likely to get knocked back for that, rightly or wrongly.

[Jack Hackett]

Okay, you are paranoid.

I know :big grin:

[Saorsa]

I think this will have been pushed forward by Celtic. I can't imagine that the other clubs were particularly bothered by it.

There was the precedent of the Livingston "amateurs" (eg Kachloul) in 2004/05 and that didn't result in anything more than a fine for improper registration.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/livingston/4602415.stmHardly on the same scale and hardly the deliberate and calculated cheating by the stickies for years. The punishment should fit the crime but clearly not in this case. In this case the punishment is being fitted tae who it has been given tae.

[Spike Mandela]

So to recap the 'punishments' dished out by the various authorities and adjudicators in Scottish football........

1. 10 point penalty for entering administration.(ineffectual)

2. £100,000 fine for bringing game into disrepute.(punishment for not paying PAYE and taxes around
£15 m render this more a business plan than a punishment)

3. One year Transfer embargo (this is a particular favourite of mine:greengrin Green negotiated this punishment to be deferred until after transfer window shut and Rangers signed more players than anyone else in Scotland)

4. £250,000 fine for 'administration error' ( Years of tax avoidance and non declared payments never gave Rangers a sporting advantage, go figure:rolleyes: to be paid for by a liquidated company in the form of pennies in the pound:cb)

If memory serves correctly then that is it(please correct if wrong)

You have to say a massive congratulations to Rangers and all establishment figures for pulling this off, one of the biggest scams in Scottish football. All so called punishments are rendered meaningless. We finally have proof that Scottish football is corrupt.

[Oscar T Grouch]

So to recap the 'punishments' dished out by the various authorities and adjudicators in Scottish football........

1. 10 point penalty for entering administration.(ineffectual)

2. £100,000 fine for bringing game into disrepute.(punishment for not paying PAYE and taxes around
£15 m render this more a business plan than a punishment)

3. One year Transfer embargo (this is a particular favourite of mine:greengrin Green negotiated this punishment to be deferred until after transfer window shut and Rangers signed more players than anyone else in Scotland)

4. £250,000 fine for 'administration error' ( Years of tax avoidance and non declared payments never gave Rangers a sporting advantage, go figure:rolleyes: to be paid for by a liquidated company in the form of pennies in the pound:cb)

If memory serves correctly then that is it(please correct if wrong)

You have to say a massive congratulations to Rangers and all establishment figures for pulling this off, one of the biggest scams in Scottish football. All so called punishments are rendered meaningless. We finally have proof that Scottish football is corrupt.


TBH Spike did we ever need any more proof that the game in this country is corrupt? Sorry day for scottish fitba' but I never really expected anything else. Total whitewash.

[SMAXXA]

Couldmt give a **** about the huns to honest but what does get right on my nerves is when I go onto the Scottish Premier League on the BEEB and the top story is anout the huns, its nowt to do with the SPL. Fair enough have it under Scottish Football and SFL but no SPL. A bit pedantic I know but just annoys me.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Hardly on the same scale and hardly the deliberate and calculated cheating by the stickies for years. The punishment should fit the crime but clearly not in this case. In this case the punishment is being fitted tae who it has been given tae.

IIRC it was deliberate - Livi thought they couldn't register Kachloul as a pro and instead registered him as an amateur while paying him for "other duties". They got off with an improper registration fine because it turned out they could have registered him as a pro and didn't need to use any subterfuge. There's no doubt that his signing enabled them to avoid relegation at Dundee's expense.

[Part/Time Supporter]

So to recap the 'punishments' dished out by the various authorities and adjudicators in Scottish football........

You have to say a massive congratulations to Rangers and all establishment figures for pulling this off, one of the biggest scams in Scottish football. All so called punishments are rendered meaningless. We finally have proof that Scottish football is corrupt.

Thanks to the vigilance of the fans, they were unable to pull off the biggest scam of all... finishing one SPL season as oldco and starting the next as newco.

The Nimmo Smith investigation was only started to appease Celtic fans, while working under the assumption that Rangers would continue in the SPL as if nothing had happened.

[greenginger]

And, on the same day reported in tonight's EEN.

Hutchison Vale U'16s ejected from Scottish Cup after it emerged a player had not been registered correctly.


The Scottish Youth Football Association, affiliated to the SFA, said the rules had to be applied !

" They have been dealt with along the SAME LINES as other clubs who have committed the same infringement " ... SYFA chief executive said.

That will be excluding Rangers, should have been added. :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

Thanks to the vigilance of the fans, they were unable to pull off the biggest scam of all... finishing one SPL season as oldco and starting the next as newco.


:agree: ... and that's all that stopped it. The "guardians" of the game tried every trick in the book to assist in the scamming (including a threatened SPL2 by invitation ... but not for those who voted against Huns in Div1). Thank **** for the internet and Turnbull Hutton (an unlikely combination, I grant you :wink:).

[SurferRosa]

Hun or Goat molester.Or both? Discuss.

Hun, but molests the odd goat in his spare time.

[marinello59]

It matters because it shows once again that were ever possible and if they can get away with it a different set of rules will be applied by those who run the game, corrupt and rotten tae the core. Clerical/administrative errors :faf: nae advantage gained :faf: if there was nae advantage tae be gained why were the doing it in the first place? They must think folk are zipped up the back tae come out with a crock of **** like that and expect them tae accept it as fair and proper, it was complete sham.

You do know they have been found to have broken the rules? They have been declared guilty by an independent commission. You may not like the punishment meted out but Oldco have been fined which given there is no money there doesn't make a blind bit of difference or as little difference as removing titles would have.
Financial sporting integrity went out the window whilst the game was still amateur and players started to receive brown envelopes. Why do we suddenly pretend otherwise? The stupid thing about what Rangers did was that they already had a massive financial advantage and would have won those titles anyway. Let's be honest here, the vast majority of Scottish fans had decided they were guilty before this investigation had taken place and had already decided on the punishment. Any penalty that did not fit in with that pre-determined outcome was always going to be denounced as a sham.

[Geo_1875]

You do know they have been found to have broken the rules? They have been declared guilty by an independent commission. You may not like the punishment meted out but Oldco have been fined which given there is no money there doesn't make a blind bit of difference or as little difference as removing titles would have.
Financial sporting integrity went out the window whilst the game was still amateur and players started to receive brown envelopes. Why do we suddenly pretend otherwise? The stupid thing about what Rangers did was that they already had a massive financial advantage and would have won those titles anyway. Let's be honest here, the vast majority of Scottish fans had decided they were guilty before this investigation had taken place and had already decided on the punishment. Any penalty that did not fit in with that pre-determined outcome was always going to be denounced as a sham.

Yes, they have been found guilty of an "administrative error" and "punished".

However, as you state the fine will not be paid, at least anywhere near the full amount, and is totally ineffective as a punishment. Removing titles from the now defunct RFC may have been as equally ineffective but would have riled up the fans of said former football club, and to other football fans would have been seen as the SPL taking their offences seriously.

As it stands the SPL can be seen as condoning their "administrative error" and the other **** they pulled over the years.

[JeMeSouviens]

You do know they have been found to have broken the rules? They have been declared guilty by an independent commission. You may not like the punishment meted out but Oldco have been fined which given there is no money there doesn't make a blind bit of difference or as little difference as removing titles would have.
Financial sporting integrity went out the window whilst the game was still amateur and players started to receive brown envelopes. Why do we suddenly pretend otherwise? The stupid thing about what Rangers did was that they already had a massive financial advantage and would have won those titles anyway. Let's be honest here, the vast majority of Scottish fans had decided they were guilty before this investigation had taken place and had already decided on the punishment. Any penalty that did not fit in with that pre-determined outcome was always going to be denounced as a sham.

They would've certainly been in the top 2, but could arguably have finished behind Celtic given a weaker squad. David Murray specifically stated in his evidence to the tax tribunal that the EBTs were to bring players to Rangers they otherwise couldn't afford:

"So far as Rangers was concerned it enabled the Club to attract players who would not otherwise have been obtainable."

Seems the very definition of a competitive advantage to me?

As far as the pre-determined outcome bit goes, I thought they'd get off with it altogether thanks to the FTT result. Throughout the Hun saga, I've just wanted the SFA/SPL/whoever to treat them in the same way as any other club by applying their rules properly. Throughout the saga, they've attempted to bend and break or just make up rules in the name of short term financial expediency.

[marinello59]

Yes, they have been found guilty of an "administrative error" and "punished".

However, as you state the fine will not be paid, at least anywhere near the full amount, and is totally ineffective as a punishment. Removing titles from the now defunct RFC may have been as equally ineffective but would have riled up the fans of said former football club, and to other football fans would have been seen as the SPL taking their offences seriously.

As it stands the SPL can be seen as condoning their "administrative error" and the other **** they pulled over the years.


There you go, that's what it's all about. Nothing to do with an over riding desire to see rules applied or sporting integerity. It's the collective hatred of all things Hun that motivates the majority really.
If it really was all about sporting integrity then we would be seeing the same uprising throughout the whole of Scottish football towards Hearts but apart from us nobody else really cares. I'll be honest, I love seeing Rangers in the lower reaches of the league and I would have loved to have seen them lose a few titles but that is because I can't stand the bigots that follow them, nowt to do with rules which were broken in ways that I don't fully understand. (And wrongdoings that actually caused a split in opinion amongst the experts who heard the big tax case.)

[ancienthibby]

They would've certainly been in the top 2, but could arguably have finished behind Celtic given a weaker squad. David Murray specifically stated in his evidence to the tax tribunal that the EBTs were to bring players to Rangers they otherwise couldn't afford:

"So far as Rangers was concerned it enabled the Club to attract players who would not otherwise have been obtainable."

Seems the very definition of a competitive advantage to me?

As far as the pre-determined outcome bit goes, I thought they'd get off with it altogether thanks to the FTT result. Throughout the Hun saga, I've just wanted the SFA/SPL/whoever to treat them in the same way as any other club by applying their rules properly. Throughout the saga, they've attempted to bend and break or just make up rules in the name of short term financial expediency.

Surely now, Campbell Ogilvie, the administrator at the time, is culpable.

To which add the entire SFA board led by Stuart Regan??

Surely!!

[blackpoolhibs]

Personally i dont give a toss now, as i don't recognise The Rangers as the old Rangers. There was no point in taking something from something that died, and they couldn't take anything from a team thats won nothing.

[Saorsa]

You do know they have been found to have broken the rules? They have been declared guilty by an independent commission. You may not like the punishment meted out but Oldco have been fined which given there is no money there doesn't make a blind bit of difference or as little difference as removing titles would have.
Financial sporting integrity went out the window whilst the game was still amateur and players started to receive brown envelopes. Why do we suddenly pretend otherwise? The stupid thing about what Rangers did was that they already had a massive financial advantage and would have won those titles anyway. Let's be honest here, the vast majority of Scottish fans had decided they were guilty before this investigation had taken place and had already decided on the punishment. Any penalty that did not fit in with that pre-determined outcome was always going to be denounced as a sham.I am well aware they have been found guilty of breaking the rules but what they have come out with is bull****. An independent commission that found them guilty of clerical errors? What a crock of ****, who the **** do they think they kidding with that garbage? If they're so independent why didn't they find them guilty of and call it what it was, blatant ****in' cheating. You wouldnae even have got odds at the bookies on the outcome of this 'investigation', it was such a ****in' stick on. Complete and utter waste of time and money. If it had been anybody else they would have been accused of cheating (which is what it was) and stripped of anything they had won and you wouldnae have got odds on that at the bookies either.

a commission full of people who use funny handshakes.

[marinello59]

I am well aware they have been found guilty of breaking the rules but what they have come out with is bull****. An independent commission that found them guilty of clerical errors? What a crock of ****, who the **** do they think they kidding with that garbage? If they're so independent why didn't they find them guilty of and call it what it was, blatant ****in' cheating. You wouldnae even have got odds at the bookies on the outcome of this 'investigation', it was such a ****in' stick on. Complete and utter wast of time and moiney. If it had been anybody else they would have been accused of cheating (which is what it was) and stripped of anything they had won and you wouldnae have got odds on that at the bookies either.

So the commision wasn't Independent? If they had agreed with your punishment would you have considered them independent then? :greengrin

If Rangers had been stripped of the titles, (and I have already said I would have loved that) then how would giving them to Celtic have made Scottish football fairer in any meaningful way?

[Hibs Class]

So the commision was Independent? If they had agreed with your punishment would you have considered them independent then? :greengrin

If Rangers had been stripped of the titles, (and I have already said I would have loved that) then how would giving them to Celtic have made Scottish football fairer in any meaningful way?

Think it's fair to say those titles (at the very least, and possibly other trophies from the same period too) are tainted. Whether left with oldhuns or awarded to e.g. Celtic no-one could take unalderated pride in owning them. Doesn't change the fact that they belong to oldhuns either, regardless of how many newhuns trot out the "54 and counting" lie today.

[LeighLoyal]

Should anybody really support the corrupt joke that is Scotttish football anymore? That's the only question left.

[Saorsa]

So the commision was Independent? If they had agreed with your punishment would you have considered them independent then? :greengrin

If Rangers had been stripped of the titles, (and I have already said I would have loved that) then how would giving them to Celtic have made Scottish football fairer in any meaningful way?If they'd found them guilty of what they had done, said it and punished them appropriately, neither of which they have done. They have been found guilty of breaking the rules but everybody including the people on that commission ken fine it was nae such thing as clerical errors and that it was a deliberate and calculated strategy tae try and gain a sporting advantage. I couldnae care less what they done with the titles in the same way that if the yams got stripped of anything they'd won at our expense I wouldnae want it either. I want tae see teams who cheat (while others struggle trying tae live within their means) punished in the severest possible way and that includes the removal of anything they had won by cheating.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--RXH94zcwXI/Tb4PwivfW6I/AAAAAAAAAH4/l66uSMrAeAI/s1600/pkfz-whitewash-070926.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b168/jamie1971/SPL.jpg

:agree:

[Eyrie]

The bit that sticks in the craw is the double standards applied when you look at what happened to Spartans for accidentally omitting a second signature. Here there was a deliberate failure to disclose that a trust funded by Huns RIP was providing monies to footballers in exchange for them playing for Huns RIP, which is hardly an "administrative oversight" - a term which in itself confirms that such payments should have been disclosed regardless of how Murray is trying to spin it tonight.

I also find it bizarre for the tribunal to claim that Huns RIP received no competitive advantage from using EBTs, which as has been pointed out even Murray admits was the whole point of them. Admittedly the competitive advantage was only really over Smeltic, since the rest of us weren't in the same league as the Ugly Sisters, but such a claim does question whether the tribunal understood the issues (and I'm aware how high powered the individual members are) if they think this is a reasonable excuse.

And the fine is a token gesture when everyone is fully aware that it has been imposed on an entity that is already in liquidation because it has no money.

[Sir David Gray]

What I find totally absurd is the outlook of anyone who is of a Sevco persuasion.

They were utterly disgusted at the thought that the oldco may be stripped of titles because apparently that has some significance on this new club. But as soon as the decision was announced and they learned that the oldco was to be fined £250,000 instead, that's suddenly ok because that doesn't affect them because they're a new club now and the club that's been handed that fine is now dead.

This is what really gets me about this whole situation, they're happy to accept the fact that they're a new club when it suits them but are quick to jump down anyone's throat who dares to suggest that the club they now support has not won 54 titles or won 33 Scottish Cups.

[LeighLoyal]

At least we now know the sfa has a dual rule book: a hun rule book and another for the rest including hibs.

[Bostonhibby]

Should anybody really support the corrupt joke that is Scotttish football anymore? That's the only question left.

This is how i feel, I have just returned from trying to explain this to 3 English Fans all of whom have us as their second club and enjoy coming up for games. They never have understod how der Hun could get away with this and all expected much harsher penalties...........upshot of it all is that Scottish football looks like a slightly bigger joke than it did a few weeks ago and we were bouncing back slightly having punted Potter.

There will be plenty suits in the football estabishment keeping their head down and smiling smugly thinking that they have done their bit by their lodges team.

I will carry on supporting Hibs in the face of all of this but its not a great day for the overall brand and image of Scottish football.

[VickMackie]

What I find totally absurd is the outlook of anyone who is of a Sevco persuasion.

They were utterly disgusted at the thought that the oldco may be stripped of titles because apparently that has some significance on this new club. But as soon as the decision was announced and they learned that the oldco was to be fined £250,000 instead, that's suddenly ok because that doesn't affect them because they're a new club now and the club that's been handed that fine is now dead.

This is what really gets me about this whole situation, they're happy to accept the fact that they're a new club when it suits them but are quick to jump down anyone's throat who dares to suggest that the club they now support has not won 54 titles or won 33 Scottish Cups.

I found it hilarious that green said its not time to draw a line under the issue. Doubt he'd have said that if five titles were stripped. ****

[Bishop Hibee]

This is how i feel, I have just returned from trying to explain this to 3 English Fans all of whom have us as their second club and enjoy coming up for games. They never have understod how der Hun could get away with this and all expected much harsher penalties...........upshot of it all is that Scottish football looks like a slightly bigger joke than it did a few weeks ago and we were bouncing back slightly having punted Potter.

There will be plenty suits in the football estabishment keeping their head down and smiling smugly thinking that they have done their bit by their lodges team.

I will carry on supporting Hibs in the face of all of this but its not a great day for the overall brand and image of Scottish football.

:top marks Thanks for saving me thinking out a reply.

[lapsedhibee]

At least we now know the sfa has a dual rule book: a hun rule book and another for the rest including hibs.

I feel bad now for dissing Jack Regan when he used to try to illustrate on here the systematic bias in favour of the huns. Oh how we laughed when he suggested that everything was rigged in their favour.

[jgl07]

I have come close to giving up on Scottish Football a few times in recent years. The whole responce to the Huns collapse was one issue as was the attempt to railroad through a 10-team SPL. I have also been stretched by the way that Hearts have bent the rules to their advantage and been allowed to get away with it over the past five years right down to the recent removal of the transfer embargo.

I will stay around for the moment but will review this decision when (or if) Sevco arrive back in the top flight.

[grunt]

Clearly she's a Celtic supporter, but I found this blog post to make a lot of sense

http://angelahaggerty.com/rangers-broke-the-rules-but-get-to-keep-the-trophies-scottish-football-needs-a-revolution/

[matty_f]

Has anyone read the ruling? I think if you take a step back from the emotional want to see Rangers punished, the findings and decision do actually make sense, however annoying that is.

The first thing is about there being no rule or provision in place for players to be retrospectively made ineligible - apparently there was an 'understanding' but that didn't stand up to scrutiny against the rules. Therefore, on a technicality Rangers players over that period were eligible.

The second thing was about there being no sporting advantage gained in not disclosing the side letters. This is the case - the advantage was gained through attracting the players and paying them through the legal EBT scheme. The decision to not disclose the side-letters was because (IMHO) Rangers weren't certain that what they were doing was at all above board and so they kept it quiet. However, EBT's were legal and it was how they were used that attracted the players and gave the advantage rather than not disclosing the payments. So I can see the justification in not placing a sporting sanction there.

I think the galling thing is that it's loopholes that have seen Rangers (RIP) keep the titles rather than any vindication of their actions. It was wrong, we know it was wrong, they know it was wrong, and Nimmo knows it was wrong, but the rules weren't there to deal with the situation and you can't re-write the rules retrospectively.

The decision to fine them is a complete waste of time, what is the point in that?

There is also the question of equality and fairness in the cases cited like Spartans, where they've been punished by expulsion for seemingly trivial mistakes. I don't know enough of what happened to Spartans, but I suspect if they'd had the will and the means, they'd have been able to get a legal team to challenge the decision to expel them as well, on the same grounds as Rangers.

I don't think this is about corruption or a will to see Rangers get off with anything, I think it highlights incompetence in the system and flaws in the rules which I would hope are being addressed on the back of all this.

[Wee Scottie Dug]

Has anyone read the ruling? I think if you take a step back from the emotional want to see Rangers punished, the findings and decision do actually make sense, however annoying that is.

The first thing is about there being no rule or provision in place for players to be retrospectively made ineligible - apparently there was an 'understanding' but that didn't stand up to scrutiny against the rules. Therefore, on a technicality Rangers players over that period were eligible.

The second thing was about there being no sporting advantage gained in not disclosing the side letters. This is the case - the advantage was gained through attracting the players and paying them through the legal EBT scheme. The decision to not disclose the side-letters was because (IMHO) Rangers weren't certain that what they were doing was at all above board and so they kept it quiet. However, EBT's were legal and it was how they were used that attracted the players and gave the advantage rather than not disclosing the payments. So I can see the justification in not placing a sporting sanction there.

I think the galling thing is that it's loopholes that have seen Rangers (RIP) keep the titles rather than any vindication of their actions. It was wrong, we know it was wrong, they know it was wrong, and Nimmo knows it was wrong, but the rules weren't there to deal with the situation and you can't re-write the rules retrospectively.

The decision to fine them is a complete waste of time, what is the point in that?

There is also the question of equality and fairness in the cases cited like Spartans, where they've been punished by expulsion for seemingly trivial mistakes. I don't know enough of what happened to Spartans, but I suspect if they'd had the will and the means, they'd have been able to get a legal team to challenge the decision to expel them as well, on the same grounds as Rangers.

I don't think this is about corruption or a will to see Rangers get off with anything, I think it highlights incompetence in the system and flaws in the rules which I would hope are being addressed on the back of all this.

I know what offence I feel is a more serious one .......

A Spartans official failing to spot that one of his players had only signed the registration document in 1 place instead of the required 2 vs the previous Hun board deciding not to disclose the side letters regarding the EBT payments and knowingly breaking the SPL rules in the process.

One is a genuine admin error punishable with expulsion from the tournament and the other is a conscious decision to break the rules as detailed in lord nimmo's findings with minimal punitive results.

:cb

[matty_f]

I know what offence I feel is a more serious one .......

A Spartans official failing to spot that one of his players had only signed the registration document in 1 place instead of the required 2 vs the previous Hun board deciding not to disclose the side letters regarding the EBT payments and knowingly breaking the SPL rules in the process.

One is a genuine admin error punishable with expulsion from the tournament and the other is a conscious decision to break the rules as detailed in lord nimmo's findings with minimal punitive results.

:cb

I totally agree, and Spartans have been terribly hard done by. The thing is though, because Spartans appear to have been treated incorrectly, you can't then compound the issue by continuing to treat others incorrectly. If there wasn't anything to say that if a player was found to be ineligible after a game (having previously been considered eligible) then they'd be retrospectively made ineligible, then you can't make that rule up now because it suits.

It sticks in my craw as much as anyone, but you can't strip titles for fielding ineligible players if there's nothing in the rules to say that these players are now ineligible. As such, there's no grounds to take the titles away.

[Wee Scottie Dug]

I totally agree, and Spartans have been terribly hard done by. The thing is though, because Spartans appear to have been treated incorrectly, you can't then compound the issue by continuing to treat others incorrectly. If there wasn't anything to say that if a player was found to be ineligible after a game (having previously been considered eligible) then they'd be retrospectively made ineligible, then you can't make that rule up now because it suits.

It sticks in my craw as much as anyone, but you can't strip titles for fielding ineligible players if there's nothing in the rules to say that these players are now ineligible. As such, there's no grounds to take the titles away.

Agree , guilty is guilty in my book ........ And nimmo's report was pretty damning and clear on that front at least ...... Anyway they don't have a vote never mind titles to strip away this new 3rd div team :hibee:greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

The first thing is about there being no rule or provision in place for players to be retrospectively made ineligible - apparently there was an 'understanding' but that didn't stand up to scrutiny against the rules. Therefore, on a technicality Rangers players over that period were eligible.

In some areas of law (example, rights of way) custom and practice counts for plenty. If for a hundred years everyone has believed X to be the case and peeps have always previously been punished for doing Y and no-one's ever challenged this punishment, there's often a legal case to be made that X holds irrespective of what's written down.

On this historical basis the oldhuns were ineligibubble.

[AndyM_1875]

Clearly she's a Celtic supporter, but I found this blog post to make a lot of sense

http://angelahaggerty.com/rangers-broke-the-rules-but-get-to-keep-the-trophies-scottish-football-needs-a-revolution/


Sorry but no, it's just another reactive outburst. Angela Haggerty is just another bitter, myopic, Sellik-minded dweller of the lunatic fringe who does not understand the judgement and has pre-judged the whole affair and got it spectacularly wrong. She is howling her outrage because she doesn't like it.

Whilst I think Rangers behaviour was arrogant and morally questionable, I'll take the judgement of the FTTT and LNS as they have been handed down by uncompromised, qualified people who have reviewed the evidence in the cold light of day without prejudice. Certainly more so than I would accept as fact anything from the mouth of some some bitter agenda driven troll like her.

Angela was wrong about LNS and wrong about the outcome of the FTTT and she herself is guilty by association with the lunatic/bigoted fringe of Sellik axe grinders like Phil McGhiollabhain. Having read many of her outbursts before she is typical of a lot of the so-called online "in the knows" with that pop up on Twitter and the online Blogging world. You'd be as well saying " A bloke down the pub told me ....."

LNS and his 2 QCs have handed down their judgement and that is that. Well boo-hoo, Angela..

[Spike Mandela]

Sorry but no, it's just another reactive outburst. Angela Haggerty is just another bitter, myopic, Sellik-minded dweller of the lunatic fringe who does not understand the judgement and has pre-judged the whole affair and got it spectacularly wrong. She is howling her outrage because she doesn't like it.

Whilst I think Rangers behaviour was arrogant and morally questionable, I'll take the judgement of the FTTT and LNS as they have been handed down by uncompromised, qualified people who have reviewed the evidence in the cold light of day without prejudice. Certainly more so than I would accept as fact anything from the mouth of some some bitter agenda driven troll like her.

Angela was wrong about LNS and wrong about the outcome of the FTTT and she herself is guilty by association with the lunatic/bigoted fringe of Sellik axe grinders like Phil McGhiollabhain. Having read many of her outbursts before she is typical of a lot of the so-called online "in the knows" with that pop up on Twitter and the online Blogging world. You'd be as well saying " A bloke down the pub told me ....."

LNS and his 2 QCs have handed down their judgement and that is that. Well boo-hoo, Angela..

The more I read from all the various establishment figures, commissions, tribunals, media and footballing authorities it is becoming clear that Rangers haven't been guilty of anything, desrve no punishment and it's a huge miscarriage of justice.:rolleyes:

[lapsedhibee]

The more I read from all the various establishment figures, commissions, tribunals, media and footballing authorities it is becoming clear that Rangers haven't been guilty of anything, desrve no punishment and it's a huge miscarriage of justice.:rolleyes:

:agree: A knight of the realm has patiently explained that it's been a witch hunt from the outset. The the huns should be invited to join the SPL right away and be paid compensation for all the anguish they've suffered. Not only should they not have old titles stripped, they should be awarded this season's SPL title on the grounds that they are the people.

[Saorsa]

The more I read from all the various establishment figures, commissions, tribunals, media and footballing authorities it is becoming clear that Rangers haven't been guilty of anything, desrve no punishment and it's a huge miscarriage of justice.:rolleyes::agree: Totally innocent.

Just shows the incompetence of the people who run the game that allows them tae get away with this because there is noting in their rules tae punish them for what they have done. The EBT schemes they were using may not all have been illegal but they must have thought they were doing something wrong if they deliberately chose tae hide those contracts from the governing bodies knowing full well they were breaking the rules by doing so. They intended tae use those schemes whether legal or not, they intended cheat. The thing that actually pisses me off mair than their non-punishment is that still naebody, no even this independent inquiry has the balls tae call them for what they were, cheats. They thought they were doing something dodgy, they chose tae hide it. The intent was there tae cheat by hiding those side notes, yet we get crap about clerical errors when it was nae such thing of the sort, their actions were deliberate and calculated. Why even bother coming out with garbage like that when everybody kens fine well their intention was tae cheat, who do they think they are kidding by puting out crap like that, they must think folk are zipped up the back.

Clerical errors :faf:

[blackpoolhibs]

The strange but funny thing in all this is, Rangers could have stopped all this years ago from happening. All they needed to do was hand over the paperwork the authorities wanted to see, but they refused to cooperate.

In my opinion it was because they thought they were guilty, and were hiding the evidence. What has happened since then has been a result of their actions, their actions alone.

[EuanH78]

:agree: Totally innocent.

Just shows the incompetence of the people who run the game that allows them tae get away with this because there is noting in their rules tae punish them for what they have done. The EBT schemes they were using may not all have been illegal but they must have thought they were doing something wrong if they deliberately chose tae hide those contracts from the governing bodies knowing full well they were breaking the rules by doing so, they intended tae cheat. The thing that actually pisses me off mair than their non-punishment is that still naebody, no even this independent inquiry has the balls tae call them for what they were, cheats. They thought they were doing something dodgy, they chose tae hide it. The intent was there tae cheat by hiding those side notes, yet we get crap about clerical errors when it was nae such thing of the sort, their actions were deliberate and calculated. Why even bother coming out with garbage like that when everybody kens fine well their intention was tae cheat, who do they think they are kidding by puting out crap like that.

To be fair DD, it was Fat Sally that said clerical or admin errors not LNS.

LNS has been pretty unequivocal about what he has judged and that is Rangers were at it. Guilty on nearly every count - they have escaped major punishment on a technicality only.

I was speaking to a Hun at work and he doesnt care that they are guilty, only cares that their titles have not been stripped. Shows you the mentality of them but dont let them forget they are guilty - Somehow they feel exonerated despite being found guilty - laughably thick Huns. Certainly not going to bother me though I agree it gives you the boak.

We should all now concentrate on Hibs, laughing at Hearts and trying to get a change in the governing bodies. Most important things going forward IMO.

[jonty]

Has anyone read the ruling? I think if you take a step back from the emotional want to see Rangers punished, the findings and decision do actually make sense, however annoying that is.

The first thing is about there being no rule or provision in place for players to be retrospectively made ineligible - apparently there was an 'understanding' but that didn't stand up to scrutiny against the rules. Therefore, on a technicality Rangers players over that period were eligible.

The second thing was about there being no sporting advantage gained in not disclosing the side letters. This is the case - the advantage was gained through attracting the players and paying them through the legal EBT scheme. The decision to not disclose the side-letters was because (IMHO) Rangers weren't certain that what they were doing was at all above board and so they kept it quiet. However, EBT's were legal and it was how they were used that attracted the players and gave the advantage rather than not disclosing the payments. So I can see the justification in not placing a sporting sanction there.

I think the galling thing is that it's loopholes that have seen Rangers (RIP) keep the titles rather than any vindication of their actions. It was wrong, we know it was wrong, they know it was wrong, and Nimmo knows it was wrong, but the rules weren't there to deal with the situation and you can't re-write the rules retrospectively.

The decision to fine them is a complete waste of time, what is the point in that?

There is also the question of equality and fairness in the cases cited like Spartans, where they've been punished by expulsion for seemingly trivial mistakes. I don't know enough of what happened to Spartans, but I suspect if they'd had the will and the means, they'd have been able to get a legal team to challenge the decision to expel them as well, on the same grounds as Rangers.

I don't think this is about corruption or a will to see Rangers get off with anything, I think it highlights incompetence in the system and flaws in the rules which I would hope are being addressed on the back of all this.

I agree with most of that Matty, except the highlighted part.

If there was no sporting advantage to be gained, then why do it?

To save money? No. Because the money wasn't saved it was then spent on more players. We know this due to the increasing debt that the Huns had. If it was simply to save, then they could have been debt free.

They used the scheme to pay salaries to players they would otherwise not have been able to pay. In some cases, World Class player that no-one else in the league could afford (bar Celtic). This gave them an on-field advantage over every other team in the league.

Not only players, but managers and other staff also. IIRC the timing of these was questionable and related in some cases to transfer of players. Money that would have otherwise gone to clubs, players, agents. If so it's not just HMRC they've been cheating.

[StevieC]

They used the scheme to pay salaries to players they would otherwise not have been able to pay.

I agree Jonty, but the problem is that it is speculation rather than hard fact.

I think that, as Matty mentions, the whole episode was tied down with outdated rules and a blinkered SPL/SFA proven to be totally incompetent.

I also think the chaos that would have occured, had the titles been stripped, would have been weighing at the backs of the minds of those investigating. History books, lawsuits, compensation, etc. etc. .. it would have dragged on for years!

I think we have to draw a line under it, forget about it, and look to the next hurdle .. how the SFA actually log it when they eventually win something. :rolleyes:

[matty_f]

I agree with most of that Matty, except the highlighted part.

If there was no sporting advantage to be gained, then why do it?

To save money? No. Because the money wasn't saved it was then spent on more players. We know this due to the increasing debt that the Huns had. If it was simply to save, then they could have been debt free.

They used the scheme to pay salaries to players they would otherwise not have been able to pay. In some cases, World Class player that no-one else in the league could afford (bar Celtic). This gave them an on-field advantage over every other team in the league.

Not only players, but managers and other staff also. IIRC the timing of these was questionable and related in some cases to transfer of players. Money that would have otherwise gone to clubs, players, agents. If so it's not just HMRC they've been cheating.

I think it's about not clouding the issue - the sporting advantage was gained through using the EBT's, rather than in not declaring the extra payments. I think Rangers knew they were on dodgy ground with the EBT's which is why they never declared them, however it's been found that in a large number of cases the EBT's were used lawfully.

With that in mind, there is no sporting advantage gained from the specific action of not declaring the side letter. The players would have been playing for them if it had been declared or not.

[jonty]

I agree Jonty, but the problem is that it is speculation rather than hard fact.

I think that, as Matty mentions, the whole episode was tied down with outdated rules and a blinkered SPL/SFA proven to be totally incompetent.

I also think the chaos that would have occured, had the titles been stripped, would have been weighing at the backs of the minds of those investigating. History books, lawsuits, compensation, etc. etc. .. it would have dragged on for years!

I think we have to draw a line under it, forget about it, and look to the next hurdle .. how the SFA actually log it when they eventually win something. :rolleyes:


I think it's about not clouding the issue - the sporting advantage was gained through using the EBT's, rather than in not declaring the extra payments. I think Rangers knew they were on dodgy ground with the EBT's which is why they never declared them, however it's been found that in a large number of cases the EBT's were used lawfully.

With that in mind, there is no sporting advantage gained from the specific action of not declaring the side letter. The players would have been playing for them if it had been declared or not.
OK. Given that they knew EBTs were wrong and those payments/conditions were registered, does that leave Hector free to pursue the tax which should have been paid on these salaries?

Now that's its been identified that these were salaries and should have been registered but just an "admin error". And will that fine be dumped on oldco and/or directors at the time.

Shame LNS didn't end it with "And it should be noted that these titles were won by, and remain with, OldCo." We all know that, of course, but sometimes its nice to see these things in black and white. :greengrin

[StevieC]

OK. Given that they knew EBTs were wrong and those payments/conditions were registered, does that leave Hector free to pursue the tax which should have been paid on these salaries?

Isn't Hector still doing that? I was sure they'd appealed the FTTT ruling?

I think the huns were pretty much stuck in a hole with the EBT/side letter issue. They couldn't declare to the SFA as that would have invalidated the EBT scheme. There was just too much at stake otherwise. It was also a time when everyone (SPL, SFA, TV, newspapers, even other teams) were all bending over to accomodate Murray, Rangers and their "superstar" players, so a "small" admin error was the least of their worries.

Totally wrong, but that's Scottish football for you. :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

how the SFA actually log it when they eventually win something. :rolleyes:

Already been decided. When they did the transfer of membership, the SFA officially decreed that NewHuns are OldHuns. Unless of course they're talking about anything bad for Huns of either vintage in which case they have to trot out the "company that owns the club" or other such made up bull****. It really is laughable reading articles by Hun apologists like Traynor, Roddy Forsyth, Richard Wilson etc. they repeatedly tie themselves in knots of inconsistency whenever they talk about "the club". If these ***** can't even be bothered to try and maintain farcical pretence, why should the rest of us bother?

[Hibrandenburg]

Already been decided. When they did the transfer of membership, the SFA officially decreed that NewHuns are OldHuns. Unless of course they're talking about anything bad for Huns of either vintage in which case they have to trot out the "company that owns the club" or other such made up bull****. It really is laughable reading articles by Hun apologists like Traynor, Roddy Forsyth, Richard Wilson etc. they repeatedly tie themselves in knots of inconsistency whenever they talk about "the club". If these ***** can't even be bothered to try and maintain farcical pretence, why should the rest of us bother?

You couldn't make it up. Oh wait a minute! Oscar Wilde did with his Dorian Gray. :rolleyes:

[green glory]

You couldn't make it up. Oh wait a minute! Oscar Wilde did with his Dorian Gray. :rolleyes:

A trip to Ibrox confirms they all look like the picture in the attic.

And their 'club' is as selfish and corrupt as said protagonist.

[easty]

Dunno if this has already been posted but just saw this comment from Lorenzo Amoruso -

"I don't understand why they couldn't be put back in the SPL? After the dual-contract verdict, I just presumed it would happen."

What's the Italian for 'how about naw, you clueless fud'