Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[LeighLoyal]

Saw this on the AFC chat site.


Alex Thomson's latest blog - titled " Threats and silence, The intimidation by Rangers fans

http://blogs.channel...ngers-fans/2873 (http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/threats-silence-intimidation-rangers-fans/2873)

As I’ve said before my interest in Rangers stems purely from the standpoint of it being a spectacular example of a corporate omnishambles: British mismanagement so profound and bewildering it veers between performance art and social car-crash. With the loyal Rangers fans left mugged in the middle.

It’s still happening. Past mismanagement matched by the odious behaviour of a no-doubt small minority of Rangers fans apparently hellbent on proving the new Rangers will be like the old.

An element of the Rangers customer base remains out of order and neither Rangers, nor Scotland’s football authorities, nor the police appear willing or able to do much about it.

I’m talking intimidation.

Of the legal profession. Of football’s governing bodies. Of football club executives. Of publishing. Of bookshops. Of newspapers. Of TV stations.

Tellingly, in Glasgow this will come as news to nobody. Which should tell anybody half awake how sick things are in this singular aspect of that great city.

Outside Scotland people may legitimately wonder how or why this is tolerated? Or simply gawp in astonishment that such things go on almost daily this year.

And it is arguably getting worse.

Consider the following brief summary of just some of what’s happened in Glasgow since Rangers’ downfall began, not a year ago.

THE LAWYERS

In April a 3 man Scottish FA Tribunal dared punish Rangers for bringing the game into disrepute (so seriously it was deemed just short of match-fixing).

Gary Allan QC, Raith Rovers director Eric Drysdale, and former commentator, Alastair Murning had their identities disclosed as well as private details with threats so serious the police advised all three on security measures.

Their identities became public after the Rangers manager no less, Ally McCoist said: “Who are these people? I want to know who these people are.”

The Scottish FA was left, not for the first time, wringing its corporate hands, saying: “We are deeply concerned that the safety and security of judicial panel members has been compromised by a wholly irresponsible betrayal of confidential information.”

And: ” all three panel members have reported intrusion into their personal and work lives, including abusive and threatening communication”.

Yet the manager of Rangers itself, a man steeped in the ways of Glasgow football, was instrumental in this chain of events, knowingly, or not.

Hardly an episode of corporate social responsibility.

It has continued. In the past few weeks Scottish Law Lord and former Supreme Court Judge Lord Nimmo-Smith actually had to put out a statement pleading for his independence to be recognised as he embarks on yet another investigation of the fallen club.

Again – the sheer weirdness of this to outsiders, passes almost without comment in Glasgow.

THE FOOTBALL AUTHORITIES

Like anybody prepared to challenge or ask questions or charged with passing judgement on Rangers, both Scottish Football Association and Scottish Premier League directors have had a torrid time of it.

In the case of SFA boss Stewart Regan, there were death threats.

The SFA have said publicly this year that private details of SFA directors have been published online.

The SFA Chief Executive Stewart Regan has said:

” At times, that does make you wonder whether it is going to impact on your family and your personal life.
But it’s never once made me think about walking from the job.”

Incredibly, to those outside the Clyde Cauldron, the SFA boss said he’d had to speak to Counter-Terrorism officers over the nature of the threats and the security response.

Yes – Counter-Terrorism police officers.

This revolting behaviour from a minority continues to spike in activity when those running the game are forced to take action to try and clear up the Ibrox mess.

Nobody, but nobody, should have to put up with this in the course of doing their job. But in Glasgow football it is dangerously close to being accepted as part of the job.

THE PUBLISHER

There has been just one book published on the Rangers. As you’d expect it’s gone through several print runs in the few weeks it has been out. But for daring to print a factual account of the Ibrox meltdown, the publisher, Bob Smith of Frontline Noir speaks of having to deal with a catalogue of abuse.

It had a potentially serious affect on customers and shops buying the book ‘Downfall’ he says:

“There was definitely pressure applied and there were certainly some wobbles along the way from shops and customers. But we got through and in the end people were supportive.”

Material was published online to identify where at least one person lived who worked on the production of ‘Downfall’.

The abuse I received for simply writing the forward to this factual account of the Ibrox debacle was routine for me – for publishers unused to it, the experience was frightening.

THE BOOKSELLERS

Those outside Scotland will find this hard to credit, but several shops including major chains like Waterstones and WHS were unable to display the book openly in some shops because of reported threats and actual abuse of staff.

For selling a work of non-fiction and journalistic enterprise!

In at least one store copies were ripped up. In another Glasgow shop an angry individual wearing a Union Jack repeatedly entered the bookshop to scream at staff to send the offending tome back to the publishers.

THE BROADCASTERS

As I write a colleague at STV in Glasgow has received threats for successfully doing his job. This person wishes to keep a low profile on police advice and is constrained to say nothing at all about it.

NUJ officials say currently around 25 journalists have been threatened recently for attempting to tell the truth about Rangers.

Understandably most feel they cannot discuss it openly. As one told me in a Glasgow hotel this summer: “I’m not paid enough and I don’t feel I have bosses who’d back me up if it came to it.”

Silence…hoping it will all go away…totally understandable when you live in Glasgow. But it isn’t going away, is it?

[LeighLoyal]

Part 2



THE FOOTBALL CLUB

Enter Raith Rovers and their redoubtable chairman Turnbull Hutton. For Turnbull it was who was somewhat thrown into the limelight this summer as a champion of sporting integrity. As the SPL set about making itself a laughing stock in its tangled efforts to defy fairness, reason and morality to try and keep Rangers up in the Premier League, it was club chairmen like Mr Hutton who said no, Rangers must be treated like any other club.

But why, exactly? Yesterday Turnbull Hutton told me: “We had to circle our wagons at Raith given what had been done to us by Rangers fans.”

And he listed the endless abusive phone calls – some from Belfast – to Raith staff, theats, heavy-breathing, silent calls and so forth.

The day Fife police passed on credible information from the Strathclyde force that two men has been paid to burn down Raith’s stadium is a day Mr Turnbull and Raith Rovers will remember.

And all of it because that Raith man Eric Drysdale had dared sit on that SFA Tribunal and pass judgement and sanction upon Rangers’ gross mismanagement.

After all that Raith and Turnbull Hutton would lead the charge to stop Rangers remaining anywhere near the SPL, whatever it took.

The would-be intimidators didn’t tame Turnbull, their cowardice only making the club bide its time and help Rangers down into the fourth tier of Scottish football.

THE NEWSPAPER

It seems an entire newspaper can be got at, when it’s Glasgow and it’s Rangers.

Recent weeks saw one of the more bizarre editorial u-turns of recent newspaper history in the UK when a Scottish Sun double-page splash promoting the author of ‘Downfall’ prior to serialising the book – suddenly became a non-serialisation.

In a somewhat embarrassed editorial The Sun admitted to receiving a large number of complaints about promoting the book, from Rangers fans.

The paper denied it was bowing to threats. Yet the publisher of the book says the threat of a Hillsborough-style boycott was real and instrumental.

It’s widely known the threats were real, nasty and yet again Strathclyde police were involved.

Many – including the book’s publisher – express real sympathy with The Scottish Sun’s dilemma. It editor and staff are known to have been shocked at the level and fury of complaints.

The difficulty here is that, whatever the paper’s reasons, in the end the mob got their way. The serialisation of a fast-selling factual book on Rangers never happened.

They couldn’t get Turnbull Hutton, Lord Nimmo-Smith, Eric Drysdale, STV and many, many more – but many believe they did get the Scottish Sun.

That should give us all pause for thought. Is this the reason why not a single Scottish newspaper has reviewed a book selling way beyond its publisher’s estimates?

What kind of power does the Ibrox mob have still, in today’s Scotland?

So against all this catalogue of attempted (and mostly failed) intimidation, the new Rangers owner Charles Green must surely take a stand and trying to kick this poison out of Ibrox and some of its support for good?

Already in his short ownership Mr Green’s referred to the football authorities as ‘the enemy’ at fans’ meeting on many occasions and he faced formal disciplinary action for saying other clubs were motivated by ‘bigotry’ towards Rangers.

Mr Green must lead from the top because if he fails to do so what chance has anyone got to stop the moronic element at the bottom of the Rangers food chain from lashing out with threats against anyone who dares speak truth unto Ibrox?

[joe breezy]

There's already a European Super League, it's called the UEFA Champions league...

[jgl07]

Is that the old football agent?

It is Agent Orange himself.

[whiskyhibby]

Fools and their money though. :rolleyes:

Just what I was thinking ...........

[Malthibby]

Reminded me to buy Downfall.

[Seveno]

I was in Manchester earlier this week and was shown photos and told stories of the day Rangers came to town. There is not a single team in England that would vote to have them in a Super League.

[WindyMiller]

It is Agent Orange himself.

Actually it's not, it's his son.

Obviously brought up the right way! :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

A wee thought. Please don't take this personally Falkirk, but why copy all of the Alex Thomson blog when you have given the link? If anybody wants to read it they can follow the link. I read it this morning and found it interesting, but I don't necessarily want to read it again.

[SurferRosa]

I was in Manchester earlier this week and was shown photos and told stories of the day Rangers came to town. There is not a single team in England that would vote to have them in a Super League.

A point conveniently ignored by the orcs when they`re discussing on their forums how much England would love to have them and not Celtic in their competition. I`m pretty sure that no league in Europe would want either of these two bigots in their leagues.

[Hibs Class]

A point conveniently ignored by the orcs when they`re discussing on their forums how much England would love to have them and not Celtic in their competition. I`m pretty sure that no league in Europe would want either of these two bigots in their leagues.

even scotland don't want them in our league, let alone any other country. It's almost as if green wakes up each day and feels he has to be more outrageous than the previous day, and so he spouts more extreme pish.

[majorhibs]

A wee thought. Please don't take this personally Falkirk, but why copy all of the Alex Thomson blog when you have given the link? If anybody wants to read it they can follow the link. I read it this morning and found it interesting, but I don't necessarily want to read it again.

Another wee thought. Not everybody follows links, especially when their server is the cheapest nastiest version possible supplied by their employers on an offshore installation, when downloading links can take what seems like forever.
Cheers, Falkirk, even if you've tried Pitlochry's patience there, I appreciated it!

[basehibby]

Thank you, your interest has now been registered. We will send you an email in due course with details of how and when you can apply to invest in Rangers Football Club.

Reference: 00000037888
Name: Mr michael mouse
Proposed Investment: £10000.00

:greengrin



HaHa - that was a laugh.....

Thank you for registering your interest. We will be in touch in due course with details of how and when you can invest in Rangers Football Club.
Your details

Name:Mr Deluded Zombie
Address:6207 LaLaLand
Greater Ulster
United Kingdom
1MAB1G0T
Proposed investment:£10000.00


:greengrin

[basehibby]

Reading responses to the likes of McMurdo's blog (see last page) it's scary, realising the actual amount of stoneage zombie bigots that exist in Scotland and the degree of the paranoid gibberish which they indulge themselves in.

Their delusion knows no bounds and the lines of "logic" they follow in trying to blame their predicament on anyone and everyone but them and their own, makes the likes of the creationists look like a bunch of hard nosed scientific rationalists.

What is every bit as alarming is the willingness of Green at their forefront to indulge them in their petty prejudices and actually encourage their increasingly paranoid and isolationist tendencies.

Personally, although I always wanted to see Rangers punished suitably for what amounted to their grand larceny subjected onto us, the taxpayers and their creditors as a whole, equally, I always firmly believed that noone should stand in the way of allowing a newly formed Rangers back into the league structure.

Nowadays, given the refusal on the part of their idiot slaver of a chief executive to acknowledge their wrongdoing and his apparent objective to STIR UP the hateful prejudices of the many knuckledraggers that follow Rangers, rather than turning over a new leaf and putting their bigotted history behind them, now I am not so sure!

So watch out Sevco/TheRangers/Zombies or whatever - if Green turns out to be half the idiot he appears to be and it all goes flying tits up once again - DON'T expect any more favours - next time I will be joining the ranks of those that will call for a total exclusion of Rangers, or any offshoot thereof, from Scottish football forevermore.

Still, one fringe benefit that does spring from the continuing odiousness of Sevco and their followers - it does make it all the sweeter on the frequent occasions when the wheels fall off and they're made to eat humble pie by the likes of mighty Stirling Albion :not worth.

[Keith_M]

......

Personally, although I always wanted to see Rangers punished suitably for what amounted to their grand larceny subjected onto us, the taxpayers and their creditors as a whole, equally, I always firmly believed that noone should stand in the way of allowing a newly formed Rangers back into the league structure.

Nowadays, given the refusal on the part of their idiot slaver of a chief executive to acknowledge their wrongdoing and his apparent objective to STIR UP the hateful prejudices of the many knuckledraggers that follow Rangers, rather than turning over a new leaf and putting their bigotted history behind them, now I am not so sure!

So watch out Sevco/TheRangers/Zombies or whatever - if Green turns out to be half the idiot he appears to be and it all goes flying tits up once again - DON'T expect any more favours - next time I will be joining the ranks of those that will call for a total exclusion of Rangers, or any offshoot thereof, from Scottish football forevermore.........

You mirror my feelings exactly.

I thought there was a remote possibility that the new club taking their place would just take their punishment, with at least some humility, and get on with working their way up the leagues to the SPL. In view of the attitude taken by the Hun Hordes since then and their attack on anything and anybody they view as anti-Rangers, I now wish them entirely out of existence.


Note: I updated the Wikipedia Page of Former Scottish Football Clubs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_Scotland#Defunct_clubs). Does telling the truth make me a Bigot as well? :dunno:

[Caversham Green]

Reading responses to the likes of McMurdo's blog (see last page) it's scary, realising the actual amount of stoneage zombie bigots that exist in Scotland and the degree of the paranoid gibberish which they indulge themselves in.

Their delusion knows no bounds and the lines of "logic" they follow in trying to blame their predicament on anyone and everyone but them and their own, makes the likes of the creationists look like a bunch of hard nosed scientific rationalists.

What is every bit as alarming is the willingness of Green at their forefront to indulge them in their petty prejudices and actually encourage their increasingly paranoid and isolationist tendencies.

Personally, although I always wanted to see Rangers punished suitably for what amounted to their grand larceny subjected onto us, the taxpayers and their creditors as a whole, equally, I always firmly believed that noone should stand in the way of allowing a newly formed Rangers back into the league structure.

Nowadays, given the refusal on the part of their idiot slaver of a chief executive to acknowledge their wrongdoing and his apparent objective to STIR UP the hateful prejudices of the many knuckledraggers that follow Rangers, rather than turning over a new leaf and putting their bigotted history behind them, now I am not so sure!

So watch out Sevco/TheRangers/Zombies or whatever - if Green turns out to be half the idiot he appears to be and it all goes flying tits up once again - DON'T expect any more favours - next time I will be joining the ranks of those that will call for a total exclusion of Rangers, or any offshoot thereof, from Scottish football forevermore.

Still, one fringe benefit that does spring from the continuing odiousness of Sevco and their followers - it does make it all the sweeter on the frequent occasions when the wheels fall off and they're made to eat humble pie by the likes of mighty Stirling Albion :not worth.

That's pretty much where I am too.

Because of the size of Rangers fan base I think the current position is a reasonable compromise, although the way we got here was a disgrace, but their consistent failure to recognise that they have been treated extremely favourably and Green's constant spite towards the top clubs in the country means that IMO there should be no favours next time - they start at the bottom.

[Caversham Green]

Keechbag has its uses - I picked this up from it. It's long and written by a Celtc supporter but spot on in most respects.

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/the-green-eyed-monster/

[CropleyWasGod]

Keechbag has its uses - I picked this up from it. It's long and written by a Celtc supporter but spot on in most respects.

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/the-green-eyed-monster/

I have been away for a couple of weeks, in a country where fitba colours are not in abundance, but they are mostly green. Internet connections are *****, hence I am needing a tutorial on wha's 'appenin.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Charles Green on sky sports news saying money raised from stockmarket will be used to create a massive superstore and a CAFE ha ha ha.

Burger King Billy's?

[SurferRosa]

Charles Green on sky sports news saying money raised from stockmarket will be used to create a massive superstore and a cafe ha ha ha.

:faf: i remember listening tae that. It sounds like he`s going tae build a city......what part of cloud cuckoo land does this idiot live in?

[Jack Hackett]

Keechbag has its uses - I picked this up from it. It's long and written by a Celtc supporter but spot on in most respects.

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/the-green-eyed-monster/

A very good read, and 'nail on the head' insightful. TY

[The Green Goblin]

I love the fact that "Downfall" immediately makes me think of the (excellent) film about the last days of Hitler's life. Great choice of title. I wonder if it crossed the author's mind :greengrin

[LeighLoyal]

Green is like a belated parasite on a dried out turd that's past its sell by date.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Oh my god....what did I just read?! And have you seen the comments underneath???

It would be laughable except these halfwits actually believe the pish they are posting.

[LeighLoyal]

You mirror my feelings exactly.

I thought there was a remote possibility that the new club taking their place would just take their punishment, with at least some humility, and get on with working their way up the leagues to the SPL. In view of the attitude taken by the Hun Hordes since then and their attack on anything and anybody they view as anti-Rangers, I now wish them entirely out of existence.


Note: I updated the Wikipedia Page of Former Scottish Football Clubs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_football_clubs_in_Scotland#Defunct_clubs). Does telling the truth make me a Bigot as well? :dunno:


They've somehow commandeered and changed all Wiki pages relating to them. Not sure how, but I'll guess that the same threats and intimidation detailed out by Alex Thompson are keeping the outright lie that T'Rangers/Sevco = Rangers Football Club. Their bigoted club died by any definition, and you can't buy a dead/bankrupt entity's corporate history.

[SurferRosa]

More garbage from someone who will not accept that Rangers are responsible for their own demise. Conspiracy and revenge are the cause of SevCos plight apparently. Pay particular attention to the comments after the blog.......this is the attitude that is being fed and encouraged by these irresponsible idiots. Comments full of sectarian bile and unionist fervour proving that SevCo FC are little more than a focus for hatred and intolerance and very little to do with supporting a football club.

http://billmcmurdo.wordpress.com/2012/10/13/the-propaganda-war-on-rangers-fc/

[Keith_M]

They've somehow commandeered and changed all Wiki pages relating to them. Not sure how, but I'll guess that the same threats and intimidation detailed out by Alex Thompson are keeping the outright lie that T'Rangers/Sevco = Rangers Football Club. Their bigoted club died by any definition, and you can't buy a dead/bankrupt entity's corporate history.


I noticed that. It looks like they're determined to rewrite history and control all media references to them.

I've tried changing it back again but I imagine it won't be long before it's re-edited.


Anyway, here's how the Wikipedia page on Former Scottish Clubs currently looks.

[CropleyWasGod]

I noticed that. It looks like they're determined to rewrite history and control all media references to them.

I've tried changing it back again but I imagine it won't be long before it's re-edited.


Anyway, here's how the Wikipedia page on Former Scottish Clubs currently looks.

No Leith Athletic? :confused:

http://www.leithathleticfc.com/index.php/history/

[WindyMiller]

More garbage from someone who will not accept that Rangers are responsible for their own demise. Conspiracy and revenge are the cause of SevCos plight apparently. Pay particular attention to the comments after the blog.......this is the attitude that is being fed and encouraged by these irresponsible idiots. Comments full of sectarian bile and unionist fervour proving that SevCo FC are little more than a focus for hatred and intolerance and very little to do with supporting a football club.

http://billmcmurdo.wordpress.com/2012/10/13/the-propaganda-war-on-rangers-fc/

I only read the first few lines, but this stood out.

""The answer again is yes, I believe there may indeed be a religious element involved in the Rangers-hating activity that takes place.
Even although Rangers is not a religion – nor does it promote one.
Some people say that religion and politics should be kept out of football.
That is a forlorn hope in Scotland.""


Makes you weep.

[Caversham Green]

I have been away for a couple of weeks, in a country where fitba colours are not in abundance, but they are mostly green. Internet connections are *****, hence I am needing a tutorial on wha's 'appenin.

I don't think a great deal has happened tbh. Charlie has spouted some nonsense at various meetings with hun groups, I don't think the liquidation process has started yet and as far as I know nothing has emerged about the conflict of interest inquiry yet.

CG (Charlie Green, not me) said that 22m+ shares had been issued, but neglected to say what their nominal value was, so some people are assuming £22m was raised (22m shares at 25p gives us a familiar figure, but that may just be coincidence). He did say (according to the minutes of one of the meetings) that the shares had "traded" at 50p and latterly £1, but I can't see how that's possible while they're still a consortium-owned private company. He also said they were seeking to issue another 22m share on AIM.

He has also said that around half of the SPL chairmen didn't want to vote Sevco out of the SPL but were browbeaten into it. Apart from Motherwell when they were due to play them he hasn't named any of those chairmen, which leads me to think he's a coward as well as a liar. He also said Rangers would never play in the SPL.

His latest rant on the prospects of the new Rangers - in which he insults Aston Villa, Southampton and the reader's intelligence - is beyond parody, you really should read it for yourself.

Oh, and they lost to the bottom team in the SFL.

[Tynie01011973]

Found these on Pie & Bovril thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-HyPCe73fdw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4zt06w1eEOs

:greengrin

[SurferRosa]

I don't think a great deal has happened tbh. Charlie has spouted some nonsense at various meetings with hun groups, I don't think the liquidation process has started yet and as far as I know nothing has emerged about the conflict of interest inquiry yet.

CG (Charlie Green, not me) said that 22m+ shares had been issued, but neglected to say what their nominal value was, so some people are assuming £22m was raised (22m shares at 25p gives us a familiar figure, but that may just be coincidence). He did say (according to the minutes of one of the meetings) that the shares had "traded" at 50p and latterly £1, but I can't see how that's possible while they're still a consortium-owned private company. He also said they were seeking to issue another 22m share on AIM.

He has also said that around half of the SPL chairmen didn't want to vote Sevco out of the SPL but were browbeaten into it. Apart from Motherwell when they were due to play them he hasn't named any of those chairmen, which leads me to think he's a coward as well as a liar. He also said Rangers would never play in the SPL.

His latest rant on the prospects of the new Rangers - in which he insults Aston Villa, Southampton and the reader's intelligence - is beyond parody, you really should read it for yourself.

Oh, and they lost to the bottom team in the SFL.

:top marks an eloquent summary of Charlie boys latest comedy gold CG.

[HH81]

:faf: i remember listening tae that. It sounds like he`s going tae build a city......what part of cloud cuckoo land does this idiot live in?

If I had been asking the questions I would have moved into the more important things like, what you going to sell in the cafe......

He sounded like a right clown who was taking piss.

[steviehibsleith]

I have always been interested to see the running costs of Sevco - Murray park and the stadium and all back room staff PR etc . CG may have reduced the wage bill but its still probably the 2nd/3rd biggest in Scotland for a team in the 3rd division. Bill Millar had full access to all this and has maintened it was a no brainer and doomed to failure.

CG knows this and as far as I can see no one has up to date figures on how Sevco finances are doing - he jut states we are debt free i wonder in the short space of time since the takeover if that is still true hence why they are now asking for a share issue to raise money for his cafe and players etc , oh and WORKING CAPITAL !!

It is blatantly obvious that CG is hoping to get the £20 million - take his £11 million (doubling his 5.5 million loan) and say thanks i saved you now run yourself im off back to Yorkshire happy as larry.

Genuinely believe reporters,politicians are afraid to ask questions as those that do are threatened

Wish they would just go ...

[calmac12000]

Its rather sad to se that the events of the summer have in no way encouraged SEVCO or their fans to be in any way a tad humbler let alone consider entering the 21st Century.
It appears that evry second week down Govan way seems to be an excuse for an Orangefest with thet raditional songs of hate and intolerance. Whats more Green and Fat Sally are fairly blatantly playing the orange card, perhaps as much to distract the Hordes of Mordor from their dodgy start to the season as anything else.
Elsewhere, we havee Hun apologists such as Chick Dung trying to bring Rangers absence into the debate about the continued poor performance of the national team. So its very much a case of the old maxim that the more things change the more they remain the same. All the same there has been no Armageddon or funnily enough social disorder and as of yet no SPL or SFL club going to the wall. And bet of all, Hibs are looking almost decent and we all get a laugh at Rangers' away record.

[Kaiser1962]

I have always been interested to see the running costs of Sevco - Murray park and the stadium and all back room staff PR etc . CG may have reduced the wage bill but its still probably the 2nd/3rd biggest in Scotland for a team in the 3rd division. Bill Millar had full access to all this and has maintened it was a no brainer and doomed to failure. ...

Prior to Rangers going belly up they had an income of £568m over the previous ten seasons and a wage bill of £329m for the same period. As you say this leaves substantial running costs of nearly £240m, or £24m per season. I dont know exactly what the £24m includes that might no longer be there (EBT payments? Interest on loans?) but this is probably cancelled out by the non payment of taxes which would leave the overall running costs pretty similar to what they where. If the wage bill is now around £6m (as CBM claims) then it will likely be at least equal to that of Hearts, but probably behind them.

Green's utterances, however, are taking on a more desperate tone as every day passes which leads me to believe that it is their running costs, not the wage bill, that is crippling them.



Genuinely believe reporters,politicians are afraid to ask questions as those that do are threatened.


Totally agree. I am told a substantial number of journalists have reported threats to the NUJ.

[jgl07]

The question is: why is Green going for the share issue?

Is he planning some capital spending? The stadium doesn't really need expanding. 50,000 is more than adequate for Division Three. They don't need a training ground as they already have one.

Is he wanting to strengthen the team? Hardly as they have a transfer embargo in place for the next 15 months.

So why dilute his ownership with a share issue?

The only explanation is that he is running out of cash. If he is short in mid-October after 36,000 season ticket sales and playing to full houses at home, this suggests that his financial model is flawed.

The income will be way down on last season due to the discounted prices and high number of concessionary tickets not to mention the near collapse of TV income. The wages bill is almost certainly the highest in Scotland bar Celtic. The running costs of Ibrox and Murray Park will be as high as previous years.

David Murray couldn't balance the books even with SPL TV cash, regular Champions' League group stage appearances and tax dodging on an industrial scale. Bill Miller and his financial advisers had full access to the books and concluded that there was no way Rangers could be run (in the SPL) without losing in excess of £10 million a year or more.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't think a great deal has happened tbh. Charlie has spouted some nonsense at various meetings with hun groups, I don't think the liquidation process has started yet and as far as I know nothing has emerged about the conflict of interest inquiry yet.

CG (Charlie Green, not me) said that 22m+ shares had been issued, but neglected to say what their nominal value was, so some people are assuming £22m was raised (22m shares at 25p gives us a familiar figure, but that may just be coincidence). He did say (according to the minutes of one of the meetings) that the shares had "traded" at 50p and latterly £1, but I can't see how that's possible while they're still a consortium-owned private company. He also said they were seeking to issue another 22m share on AIM.

He has also said that around half of the SPL chairmen didn't want to vote Sevco out of the SPL but were browbeaten into it. Apart from Motherwell when they were due to play them he hasn't named any of those chairmen, which leads me to think he's a coward as well as a liar. He also said Rangers would never play in the SPL.

His latest rant on the prospects of the new Rangers - in which he insults Aston Villa, Southampton and the reader's intelligence - is beyond parody, you really should read it for yourself.

Oh, and they lost to the bottom team in the SFL.

Thank you :aok:

[Jim44]

A very good read, and 'nail on the head' insightful. TY

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/the-green-eyed-monster/



Just flagging this back up as it really is worth reading.

[EuanH78]

The question is: why is Green going for the share issue?

Is he planning some capital spending? The stadium doesn't really need expanding. 50,000 is more than adequate for Division Three. They don't need a training ground as they already have one.

Is he wanting to strengthen the team? Hardly as they have a transfer embargo in place for the next 15 months.

So why dilute his ownership with a share issue?

The only explanation is that he is running out of cash. If he is short in mid-October after 36,000 season ticket sales and playing to full houses at home, this suggests that his financial model is flawed.

The income will be way down on last season due to the discounted prices and high number of concessionary tickets not to mention the near collapse of TV income. The wages bill is almost certainly the highest in Scotland bar Celtic. The running costs of Ibrox and Murray Park will be as high as previous years.

David Murray couldn't balance the books even with SPL TV cash, regular Champions' League group stage appearances and tax dodging on an industrial scale. Bill Miller and his financial advisers had full access to the books and concluded that there was no way Rangers could be run (in the SPL) without losing in excess of £10 million a year or more.

Personally I dont think Green cares very much whether the Huns are sustainable or not. Just my opinion, but the share issue is to make him some money in short time and he can get the hell out of dodge before it goes tits up again. At least thats what I hope is happening :greengrin

The thread that keeps on giving!

[CropleyWasGod]

Personally I dont think Green cares very much whether the Huns are sustainable or not. Just my opinion, but the share issue is to make him some money in short time and he can get the hell out of dodge before it goes tits up again. At least thats what I hope is happening :greengrin

The thread that keeps on giving!

If I have read recent reports correctly, he says that he will underwrite the issue, and take up any unsold shares himself. Hardly a strategy to make any money....:greengrin

[Seveno]

If I have read recent reports correctly, he says that he will underwrite the issue, and take up any unsold shares himself. Hardly a strategy to make any money....:greengrin

Well I don't think he's ever knowingly told the truth to date so no need to expect him to change that habit now.

[Jim44]

Green has publicly apologised to Aston Villa, claiming he meant no offense. Since when did calling someone 'useless' not constitute offence? His apology is even more offensive than his original remark.

[green glory]

Green is a hero. He's going drag them to hell.

I notice Verminmedia is down, pity because I love a Sunday evening ****ting my trousers in laughter at their delusional cretinism.

[LeighLoyal]

Green has publicly apologised to Aston Villa, claiming he meant no offense. Since when did calling someone 'useless' not constitute offence? His apology is even more offensive than his original remark.



If he didn't mean any offence, then what the xxxx did he mean? :confused: I can just about buy he's whipping the Orcs into a frenzy, or trying to, but the guy is totally off his dial, and not in a nice way. Sinister creep of a guy.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Green is a dangerous character, Ibrox will be even more unpleasant whenever Hibs or Celtic have got to play at Ibrox next.

[Hibercelona]

Green is a dangerous character, Ibrox will be even more unpleasant whenever Hibs or Celtic have got to play at Ibrox next.

He's more of a danger to himself than anybody else, the man should be locked up in a padded cell.

I can't see Ibrox being more unpleasant than it has been before, surely it just isn't possible?

[EuanH78]

If I have read recent reports correctly, he says that he will underwrite the issue, and take up any unsold shares himself. Hardly a strategy to make any money....:greengrin

Does Green have that kind of money?

Anyway, stop spoiling it for me with things like reports and facts :greengrin

[ballengeich]

If I have read recent reports correctly, he says that he will underwrite the issue, and take up any unsold shares himself. Hardly a strategy to make any money....:greengrin

The issue isn't going to be underwritten. While he's said he'll buy the unsold shares, he hasn't committed himself to a price for them:greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

The issue isn't going to be underwritten. While he's said he'll buy the unsold shares, he hasn't committed himself to a price for them:greengrin

Fair point :greengrin

I am not an expert on share issues.... but if they are offered at a certain price, is he not bound to buy them at that price? Or, if he then waits until they are listed on the AIM, would he buy them at the market rate.....which would be diddley-squat by then? :rolleyes:

[jgl07]

Fair point :greengrin

I am not an expert on share issues.... but if they are offered at a certain price, is he not bound to buy them at that price? Or, if he then waits until they are listed on the AIM, would he buy them at the market rate.....which would be diddley-squat by then? :rolleyes:

You clearly don't understand Yameconomics. He would be buying them from himself!

[ballengeich]

Fair point :greengrin

I am not an expert on share issues.... but if they are offered at a certain price, is he not bound to buy them at that price? Or, if he then waits until they are listed on the AIM, would he buy them at the market rate.....which would be diddley-squat by then? :rolleyes:

I'm not trained in this either. It would be educational if someone who is an authority can tell us what happens to the unsold shares when an issue which is not underwritten falls short of its target.

Surely the lack of underwriting can't be a result of an inability to find anyone willing to take on the risk.

[PatHead]

Villa's fans take on Green. Don't think they are too impressed.

http://www.astonvilla.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=7513660

[Seveno]

If Chuckie is 'underwriting' the IPO, then he has to retain all the shares that are not purchased and pay for these at the full price.

The biggest mystery is that an IPO requires a significant amount of financial details including historical and projections. The utterances of an escaped lunatic from lalaland would not normally meet these qualifications.

[jgl07]

I understand that the IPO floatation will be conducted in Euros.

Rangers can't deal with Stirling!

[Killiehibbie]

He's more of a danger to himself than anybody else, the man should be locked up in a padded cell.

I can't see Ibrox being more unpleasant than it has been before, surely it just isn't possible?
Ibrox of the last few years was a pleasant day out compared to 30 odd years ago.

[Wheat Hound]

Can someone give me a brief account of why the Hibs 'stopping' and then 'reforming' in circa 1891 is different to the sevco scenario i.e. why we remained the same club and not a completely new company/club? Would be Mich appreciated so i can girfu a few Gorgie tramps.

[green glory]

Can someone give me a brief account of why the Hibs 'stopping' and then 'reforming' in circa 1891 is different to the sevco scenario i.e. why we remained the same club and not a completely new company/club? Would be Mich appreciated so i can girfu a few Gorgie tramps.

I'm pretty sure it was legal at the time but company law has changed since then, hence the difference.

[StevieC]

Can someone give me a brief account of why the Hibs 'stopping' and then 'reforming' in circa 1891 is different to the sevco scenario i.e. why we remained the same club and not a completely new company/club? Would be Mich appreciated so i can girfu a few Gorgie tramps.

I wasn't around at the time .. but I suspect that it would be down to debt owed and modern day changes regarding administration and liquidation.

I suppose you could liken it to an amatuer football club folding because there were no funds, or enthusiastic people to run it. A season later a couple of former players decide to start the team up again and get the funds together for league entry.

Totally different to being thrown out of a league for not paying your dues and having the local butcher chasing you round the park with a meat cleaver over unpaid bills for the pies.

[PatHead]

Think this was covered a few thousand pages ago. Can you not read the whole thread!!!!!

Sure Hibs never actually folded we just didn't have a team or the funds to compete for a couple of years before the original "Grandpa " Farmer and his mates helped reconstitute the club, got a team together and helped us return to the leagues.

Jonnyboy might tell you if you ask him nicely.

[LeighLoyal]

I see Zombie Media is still foo ked. A big thumbs up to whatever good guy put a trojan in the Orc works. :thumbsup:

[VickMackie]

Villa's fans take on Green. Don't think they are too impressed.

http://www.astonvilla.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=7513660

I liked bobthebuilders comment. They'd only like two Scottish teams who are relevant. Hibs and Celtic. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Can someone give me a brief account of why the Hibs 'stopping' and then 'reforming' in circa 1891 is different to the sevco scenario i.e. why we remained the same club and not a completely new company/club? Would be Mich appreciated so i can girfu a few Gorgie tramps.

The Hibs "pause" came pre-incorporation, ie. the club hadn't formed a limited company. It never went out of business as such so it was possible for it to resume as the same entity. Hibs incorporated as a limited company in 1903 and the club has existed as that legal entity to the present day.

The Original Huns incorporated in 1899 and that legal entity still exists but will shortly be liquidated. When it failed to exit administration, the death of the Huns became an inevitability. It cannot continue to exist as that entity without satisfying its creditors.

[RyeSloan]

The Hibs "pause" came pre-incorporation, ie. the club hadn't formed a limited company. It never went out of business as such so it was possible for it to resume as the same entity. Hibs incorporated as a limited company in 1903 and the club has existed as that legal entity to the present day.

The Original Huns incorporated in 1899 and that legal entity still exists but will shortly be liquidated. When it failed to exit administration, the death of the Huns became an inevitability. It cannot continue to exist as that entity without satisfying its creditors.

Sure Hearts had something similar at the start of their history as well did they not?

[Eyrie]

Sure Hearts had something similar at the start of their history as well did they not?

I think they took over a club called St Andrews. Can't remember why though - anyone know?

[green glory]

http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/hurricane-craigie-set-to-hit-ibrox/#more-3237

Phil is usually on the money. The Ministry of Justice are also saying the FTTT verdict will be announced this/next week.

Joyous!!!

[PatHead]

Sad thing is that even if everything Craigie Bhoy says is true the Scottish press will just ignore the truth and pump out more about Craigie being to blame for everything.

Chuckie, Walter (Teflon) Smith, Fat Swally and Mintybags Murray have never and never will do anything wrong if you believe these rags and the Beeb.

[PatHead]

http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/hurricane-craigie-set-to-hit-ibrox/#more-3237

Phil is usually on the money. The Ministry of Justice are also saying the FTTT verdict will be announced this/next week.

Joyous!!!

Hope CWG and Cav G are resting up to interpret the verdict for us as I suspect it will not be in words of one syllable which we will understand!

[green glory]

Alex Thomson tweeting D+P making a statement later today, possibly about Craigie Boy's links to Charles Green. Hee hee.

[JeMeSouviens]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19976991 :wink:

[LeighLoyal]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19976991 :wink:





Crazy Chuck: 1st day at ibrox: ''I have never met Craig Whyte in my life''



Pants on fire ya mouthy old jakey! :thumbsup:

[PatHead]

Is this interview with the same BBC that Whyte is suing for saying horrible things about him?

[CropleyWasGod]

Hope CWG and Cav G are resting up to interpret the verdict for us as I suspect it will not be in words of one syllable which we will understand!

TBH, it's not really that relevant now. It has no bearing on the current club.

Perversely, if it goes "against" the old company, it's the smaller creditors that will suffer.

[Speedway]

I was walking past Ibrox the other week when the 'faithful' appeared from everywhere munching on fairy cakes for some strange reason.

Has anyone else suddenly been surround by HUNdreds and thousands?

[PatHead]

BBC are milking this more that Hibs marketing on the new tiles.

2nd story of the day

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19979004

[southsider]

Perhaps Green may use the cash raised by a share issue to pay back all the people the oldco stole from........lol or perhaps he may not

[PatHead]

Whyte says that he introduced Green to D&P.

In view of the fact that Rangers were sold to Servco for such a low price with no attempt to sell off the assets first. Are the liquidators likely to look more closely at the deal now they are aware Whyte assisted in brokering the deal or would this be flogging a dead horse?

[CropleyWasGod]

Whyte says that he introduced Green to D&P.

In view of the fact that Rangers were sold to Servco for such a low price with no attempt to sell off the assets first. Are the liquidators likely to look more closely at the deal now they are aware Whyte assisted in brokering the deal or would this be flogging a dead horse?

I don't think that Whyte's involvement will affect the liquidators' attitude much. They will (or should) be looking at the asset sale closely in any event.

Now that Whyte has resurfaced, I can't help thinking that this is some sort of attempt at revenge on D&P. He appointed them, in the hope that they would be easy to deal with, particulalry on the question of the security that he claimed to have. However, I think their attitude changed subtly in the Spring.... easy to say in hindsight, of course. That change was, IMO, due to their realising just how high-profile the case was, and that they couldn't get away with doing Whyte's bidding. So, effectively, they shafted him.

The problem is, though, that Whyte probably knows where a few bodies are buried....:greengrin

[Stevie Reid]

I don't think that Whyte's involvement will affect the liquidators' attitude much. They will (or should) be looking at the asset sale closely in any event.

Now that Whyte has resurfaced, I can't help thinking that this is some sort of attempt at revenge on D&P. He appointed them, in the hope that they would be easy to deal with, particulalry on the question of the security that he claimed to have. However, I think their attitude changed subtly in the Spring.... easy to say in hindsight, of course. That change was, IMO, due to their realising just how high-profile the case was, and that they couldn't get away with doing Whyte's bidding. So, effectively, they shafted him.

The problem is, though, that Whyte probably knows where a few bodies are buried....:greengrin

Liking the sound of this :greengrin

[Caversham Green]

TBH, it's not really that relevant now. It has no bearing on the current club.

Perversely, if it goes "against" the old company, it's the smaller creditors that will suffer.

:agree: The creditors won't get a lot in any case after D&P and BDO have had their whack. Unless D&P win their case against Collyer Bristow/Gary Withey which is bubbling away quietly in the background.

[CropleyWasGod]

:agree: The creditors won't get a lot in any case after D&P and BDO have had their whack. Unless D&P win their case against Collyer Bristow/Gary Withey which is bubbling away quietly in the background.

I had forgotten about that. Do BDO take that over, or will it fall as a result of D&P being removed?

[Caversham Green]

I don't think that Whyte's involvement will affect the liquidators' attitude much. They will (or should) be looking at the asset sale closely in any event.

Now that Whyte has resurfaced, I can't help thinking that this is some sort of attempt at revenge on D&P. He appointed them, in the hope that they would be easy to deal with, particulalry on the question of the security that he claimed to have. However, I think their attitude changed subtly in the Spring.... easy to say in hindsight, of course. That change was, IMO, due to their realising just how high-profile the case was, and that they couldn't get away with doing Whyte's bidding. So, effectively, they shafted him.

The problem is, though, that Whyte probably knows where a few bodies are buried....:greengrin

There's a distinct smell about it all though. I'm sure Green mentioned that he had been working with D&P around the time Bill Miller put his bid in. And the whole Ticketus thing still doen't hang right, although maybe Craigie's getting his defences up in this interview.

[Caversham Green]

I had forgotten about that. Do BDO take that over, or will it fall as a result of D&P being removed?

I think BDO still have a duty to recover as much as possible for the creditors, so they will need to take a view on whether the case is likely to succeed or not. The CVA proposal said that the claim 'could be' more than £25m, but without knowing all the details that seems unlikely to me.

I would guess that BDO will instruct the same legal team to pursue the matter if they think it might succeed.

[greenginger]

:agree: The creditors won't get a lot in any case after D&P and BDO have had their whack. Unless D&P win their case against Collyer Bristow/Gary Withey which is bubbling away quietly in the background.

http://www.thelawyer.com/withey-exits-rangers-trial-as-intervener-application-dropped/1014897.article

Withey was doing a bit of maneuvering in the case the other day. No idea if it is significant. :confused:

[joe breezy]

This guy reckons admin again may be looming now that Craig Whyte has revealed his links to Green

http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/33778354458/newco-whats-in-black-and-whyte

Full interview here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19975957#?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=sportsound

:lolrangers:

[greenginger]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19981266

I can't see how Duff and Duffer can get away with this bullsh*t.

"The Liquidation will not affect the new Rangers as it is a completely separate entity" --------------fair enough,

but he goes on to say " as administrators our primary statutory function was to ensure Rangers continued as a business and this was achieved " and then he says,

" Secondly, we were tasked with finding a buyer for the club and this too was achieved " :confused:


That's not the way I see things, what was sold was the old club assets and everyone else got shafted except the Duffers who got their
£ 3million fees, losing the creditors £ 4 million by trading the company for 4 months.

[Seveno]

What odds are the bookies giving on Glasgow's second club winning the Third Division ?




By that I mean Queen's Park.

[YehButNoBut]

What odds are the bookies giving on Glasgow's second club winning the Third Division ?




By that I mean Queen's Park.

Surely Queens Park are only the 3rd club in Glasgow.










Partick Thistle are the 2nd. :greengrin

[LeighLoyal]

If Whyte can back up his claims then it definitely muddies the waters regards Green. Methinks part of this rushed AIM share issue is to try and avoid BDO unwinding the Sevco asset purchase. You have a tainted and conflicted administrator in D&P, a shady newco front man in Green, Whyte lurking in the background, and an ongoing process regards oldco liquidation, along with the EBT and dual contract verdicts to come. Plus the useless carrot Sally in charge of getting the Orcs out of sfl3. Green is obviously making a dash for the cash winning line before these chickens come home to roost.

[steakbake]

If Whyte can back up his claims then it definitely muddies the waters regards Green. Methinks part of this rushed AIM share issue is to try and avoid BDO unwinding the Sevco asset purchase. You have a tainted and conflicted administrator in D&P, a shady newco front man in Green, Whyte lurking in the background, and an ongoing process regards oldco liquidation, along with the EBT and dual contract verdicts to come. Plus the useless carrot Sally in charge of getting the Orcs out of sfl3. Green is obviously making a dash for the cash winning line before these chickens come home to roost.

It's interesting. Is it really possible that Whyte and Green are somehow in cahoots?

Bill Miller ran a mile from Rangers when he looked further into it. The whole thing stinks.

Here's Traynor on Newsnight by the way, wishing Whyte back into his box.

[jgl07]

What odds are the bookies giving on Glasgow's second club winning the Third Division ?

By that I mean Queen's Park.

But Partick Thistle are in the First Division.

[grunt]

Anyone see the Green interview on STV tonight?
Ibrox recently valued at £80m.
It seems perfectly clear that D&P didn't get the best deal for the creditors....

[Caversham Green]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19981266

I can't see how Duff and Duffer can get away with this bullsh*t.

"The Liquidation will not affect the new Rangers as it is a completely separate entity" --------------fair enough,

but he goes on to say " as administrators our primary statutory function was to ensure Rangers continued as a business and this was achieved " and then he says,

" Secondly, we were tasked with finding a buyer for the club and this too was achieved " :confused:


That's not the way I see things, what was sold was the old club assets and everyone else got shafted except the Duffers who got their
£ 3million fees, losing the creditors £ 4 million by trading the company for 4 months.

Hmm. Their objectives (and the objectives of any Administration) were:

a) Rescue the Company as a going concern;
b) Achieving a better result for the Company's creditors as a whole than would be likely if the Company were wound up without first being in administration;
c) Realising property for the benefit of secured or preferential creditors.

They failed in the first objective, so their statutory function became objective b). That in no way involves ensuring Rangers FC continued as a business, nor were they "tasked with finding a buyer for the club", their duties were simply to realise as much from the assets as possible for the benefit of the creditors.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it was widely predicted that they would fail with a) because of HMRC's stated policy regarding administrations. The CVA failure surprised no-one apart from them and Charles Green. That being the case (with hindsight) they should have pursued objective b) from the outset - that would at least have saved a significant chunk of their fees. I don't believe objective b) was satisfied by the signing of an apparently irrevocable agreement to sell all of the company's assets for £5.5m during the pursuit of a CVA. Objective c) is not relevant in this case.

My view is that Duff & Phelps spectacularly failed to achieve the purpose of their appointment.

[StevieC]

My view is that Duff & Phelps spectacularly failed to achieve the purpose of their appointment.

And what are the potential repurcussions of such a failure?

Could they have their fees slashed, and the savings added to the pot, or are those fees safe?

There argument is obviously going to be that selling Rangers as a going concern (rather than splitting assets) would realise the largest amount of money for creditors, but was this achieved (given the breakdown of what was sold for £5.5m)?

[joe breezy]

But Partick Thistle are in the First Division.

Partick Thistle are Glasgow's number one club :)

[Caversham Green]

And what are the potential repurcussions of such a failure?

Could they have their fees slashed, and the savings added to the pot, or are those fees safe?

There argument is obviously going to be that selling Rangers as a going concern (rather than splitting assets) would realise the largest amount of money for creditors, but was this achieved (given the breakdown of what was sold for £5.5m)?

Sadly, I think the repercussions are likely to be minimal. BDO might question some of their actions which could lead to a lawsuit to recover some of the losses suffered by creditors, but these things are always difficult to prove and expensive to pursue. The creditors have to approve their fees, but I think that has already been done.

I would agree that selling the club (rather than the company) as a going concern should have realised more than a break-up, but it appears that they tied themselves into the £5.5m deal without properly testing the market. The valuation of all the assets strikes me as ridiculously low and the going concern part - 36,000 ST holders and what Green is now describing as a worldwide brand - was valued at £1.

I also wish someone would challenge Green's contention that he bought the titles and trophies within that purchase price.

[Moulin Yarns]

Sadly, I think the repercussions are likely to be minimal. BDO might question some of their actions which could lead to a lawsuit to recover some of the losses suffered by creditors, but these things are always difficult to prove and expensive to pursue. The creditors have to approve their fees, but I think that has already been done.

I would agree that selling the club (rather than the company) as a going concern should have realised more than a break-up, but it appears that they tied themselves into the £5.5m deal without properly testing the market. The valuation of all the assets strikes me as ridiculously low and the going concern part - 36,000 ST holders and what Green is now describing as a worldwide brand - was valued at £1.

I also wish someone would challenge Green's contention that he bought the titles and trophies within that purchase price.

"The Liquidation will not affect the new Rangers as it is a completely separate entity" From D&P.

Separate Entity = No titles and trophies, surely.

[CropleyWasGod]

"The Liquidation will not affect the new Rangers as it is a completely separate entity" From D&P.

Separate Entity = No titles and trophies, surely.

Think I have said it before.... but this is an argument that will rage back and forth for a long time, and probably without resolution.

On one hand, there is the legal position, and I am with Cav on that. However, as we all know, football isn't just about legalities, it's about emotion as well. Imagine if we were in the same position, with a phoenix-type situation, I am sure that most of us would be arguing that "we are still, and always have been, the Hibs; no matter what the law says".


(this is what is so good about Hibs.net. I have just posted this thought-provoking nonsense, whilst two minutes ago I was praising Sylvia Kristel's tits.)

[Caversham Green]

Think I have said it before.... but this is an argument that will rage back and forth for a long time, and probably without resolution.

On one hand, there is the legal position, and I am with Cav on that. However, as we all know, football isn't just about legalities, it's about emotion as well. Imagine if we were in the same position, with a phoenix-type situation, I am sure that most of us would be arguing that "we are still, and always have been, the Hibs; no matter what the law says".


(this is what is so good about Hibs.net. I have just posted this thought-provoking nonsense, whilst two minutes ago I was praising Sylvia Kristel's tits.)

I agree with the gist of that, but my objection is Green cherry-picking the bits he wants to keep. On the one hand he claims his club have never played in the SPL and so can't be subject to SPL sanctions, but on the other hand he claims his club hold numerous SPL titles that mustn't be taken away - he can't have it both ways. And the breakdown of the sale price shows very clearly that he did not buy those titles.

[Moulin Yarns]

21000 poat

[steakbake]

21001

Is anyone else reminiscing about bygone days of yore?

Specifically Christmas 07?

[SMAXXA]

21001

Is anyone else reminiscing about bygone days of yore?

Specifically Christmas 07?

I wish this thread would be as meltdown as the huns but its got a perverse curiosity about it I keep looking for further good news

[LeighLoyal]

Would like to know what that repugnant oaf Salmond was doing contacting HMRC on Whyte's behalf. The same Whyte who robbed hundreds of small creditors blind as well as the tax man. The same Salmond who wants to tear up the 1707 Act of Union that Orcs cherish.

[green glory]

Would like to know what that repugnant oaf Salmond was doing contacting HMRC on Whyte's behalf. The same Whyte who robbed hundreds of small creditors blind as well as the tax man. The same Salmond who wants to tear up the 1707 Act of Union that Orcs cherish.

Would it have been a problem if he'd made enquiries regarding any other major employer in a similar position?

[The Green Goblin]

21001

Is anyone else reminiscing about bygone days of yore?

Specifically Christmas 07?


I remember someone spilled something...and there was a Chelsea game on around then, but I couldn't for the life of me tell you at what time it started...

Anyone else remember that?

[LeighLoyal]

Would it have been a problem if he'd made enquiries regarding any other major employer in a similar position?



Care to list one 'major employer' dodging tax that Salmond has lobbied HMRC on? I hear crickets chirping!

[Moulin Yarns]

Care to list one 'major employer' dodging tax that Salmond has lobbied HMRC on? I hear crickets chirping!

Will this do??

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/oct/17/starbucks-tax-avoidance-hmrc-parliamentary-committees

All over the news this week, so it is obviously a 'major employer' :na na:

[grunt]

Will this do??

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/oct/17/starbucks-tax-avoidance-hmrc-parliamentary-committees

All over the news this week, so it is obviously a 'major employer' :na na:
Salmond has lobbied HMRC on behalf of Starbucks?
I didn't know that.

[Moulin Yarns]

Salmond has lobbied HMRC on behalf of Starbucks?
I didn't know that.

Awright, it's early and I'm still asleep.


I'm sure Eck did some lobbying on behalf of Ha Ha Hearts though.

[BonnieFitbaTeam]

Would it have been a problem if he'd made enquiries regarding any other major employer in a similar position?

How exactly would the Currant Buns (old or new) qualify as a 'major' employer ?

[green glory]

How exactly would the Currant Buns (old or new) qualify as a 'major' employer ?

They employ over 500 people. Don't get me wrong I hate the Huns with a vengeance and wish their club nothing but misery and pestilence, but Alex Salmond is caught between a rock and a hard place on this one.

[lapsedhibee]

They employ over 500 people. Don't get me wrong I hate the Huns with a vengeance and wish their club nothing but misery and pestilence, but Alex Salmond is caught between a rock and a hard place on this one.

That was before Duff & Duffer's drastic cost-cutting measures, after which they employed no fewer.

[LeighLoyal]

Will this do??

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/oct/17/starbucks-tax-avoidance-hmrc-parliamentary-committees

All over the news this week, so it is obviously a 'major employer' :na na:


I don't see Salmond's name anywhere here. And I doubt Starbucks were withholding their employees NI and PAYE contyributions. Oldco are subject to criminal investigation, Salmond lobbying for criminals. :rolleyes: I think Sturgeon did it before with a serial benefits cheat, so not the first time. :wink:

[Caversham Green]

They employ over 500 people. Don't get me wrong I hate the Huns with a vengeance and wish their club nothing but misery and pestilence, but Alex Salmond is caught between a rock and a hard place on this one.

Their last accounts showed only 256 employees and that has been slashed to 255.

[Ozyhibby]

To be fair to the politicians of all parties they backed right off once they knew what the old Rangers had been up to.

[Part/Time Supporter]

To be fair to the politicians of all parties they backed right off once they knew what the old Rangers had been up to.

This. When they first went into administration, all the politicians (including Cameron at PMQs) were calling for Rangers to be saved. They piped down as soon as it became public knowledge that Whyte had deliberately avoided paying PAYE and VAT.

[green glory]

I haven't seen it yet but according to Radio Scotland this morning the Herald is reporting Craigie boy is preparing to fight for his share of the assets.

Tasty.

[Ozyhibby]

I haven't seen it yet but according to Radio Scotland this morning the Herald is reporting Craigie boy is preparing to fight for his share of the assets.

Tasty.

I think he may have Tupe'd over to our side.

[s.a.m]

Would it have been a problem if he'd made enquiries regarding any other major employer in a similar position?

To be honest - and this isn't a specific dig at Salmond or anyone else - I would have a problem with politicians pleading for leniency for any company which has cynically avoided tax to gain advantage. In the case of Rangers, they sought to gain an advantage over their competitors (thus affecting their businesses), by not meeting their liabilities (our money). No problem with local representatives trying to help businesses operating honestly who have come upon difficult times, and could do with some support, in terms of repayment schedules etc..., to see them over the line.

[StevieC]

I haven't seen it yet but according to Radio Scotland this morning the Herald is reporting Craigie boy is preparing to fight for his share of the assets.
Tasty.

It was always rumoured that he had security over the assets. My suspicion is that the whole thing was a White/Green/D&P stitch up from the very start, with each party getting something decent out of the deal.

As time has gone on, and it's transpiring that they are yet again headed for disaster, and possible financial loses, I think that the "not so holy" trinity have started to look out for themselves and not averse to "shafting" the others.

I reckon it's going to culminating in a lot of mud slinging and potential court cases.

[Stevie Reid]

Will this do??

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/oct/17/starbucks-tax-avoidance-hmrc-parliamentary-committees

All over the news this week, so it is obviously a 'major employer' :na na:

I thought that Starbucks were being condemned for morally questionable but perfectly legal tax avoidance. Rangers completely evaded it.

[LeighLoyal]

It was always rumoured that he had security over the assets. My suspicion is that the whole thing was a White/Green/D&P stitch up from the very start, with each party getting something decent out of the deal.

As time has gone on, and it's transpiring that they are yet again headed for disaster, and possible financial loses, I think that the "not so holy" trinity have started to look out for themselves and not averse to "shafting" the others.

I reckon it's going to culminating in a lot of mud slinging and potential court cases.



Sounds good. Genuinely hope they die for good. Zombies are not to be encouraged.

[CropleyWasGod]

It was always rumoured that he had security over the assets. My suspicion is that the whole thing was a White/Green/D&P stitch up from the very start, with each party getting something decent out of the deal.

As time has gone on, and it's transpiring that they are yet again headed for disaster, and possible financial loses, I think that the "not so holy" trinity have started to look out for themselves and not averse to "shafting" the others.

I reckon it's going to culminating in a lot of mud slinging and potential court cases.

The security was not a rumour, Stevie. It actually existed, and was registered at Companies House. However, such a security can only be exercised if there was a debt. IMO, and in D&P's too, there was no debt due to CW or any of his companies.

I agree about the shafting bit.... that's going to be quite entertaining. :greengrin

[Jack Hackett]

Sounds good. Genuinely hope they die for good. Zombies are not to be encouraged.

You have to remove their heads.

[PatHead]

I haven't seen it yet but according to Radio Scotland this morning the Herald is reporting Craigie boy is preparing to fight for his share of the assets.

Tasty.

herald article below

FORMER Rangers owner Craig Whyte is preparing to claim millions of pounds from the remains of the old club that collapsed earlier this year. The controversial businessman is hoping for a huge payout from the sale of the assets to new owner Charles Green's Sevco consortium.
Whyte told The Herald he believes the RFC Group he used to buy the club and pay off its £18 million debt – using future season ticket sales – held a valid security over the Ibrox outfit's assets sold to Mr Green for £5.5m.
If successful he will be placed ahead of other creditors when the remaining money brought in by the liquidation of the failed Rangers company is distributed.
Whyte said: "Everyone knows there was a security there. All these things are being dealt with."
A recent progress report by administrators Duff & Phelps showed the old company had around £2.3m of funds – although a further £2.8m is estimated to be owed through outstanding transfer fees and millions more could be realised from outstanding litigation.
The administrators were also pursuing an unquantified sum held by Uefa as a result of players participating in matches for their national teams.
In their report Duff & Phelps also said they believed Whyte's company was not owed anything.
London ticket agency Ticketus bought the season ticket rights from Whyte and is pursuing him for more than £20m paid to RFC Group to help him complete his disastrous takeover of Rangers. That money was used by RFC Group to pay off Rangers' £18m debt with Lloyds Banking Group.

[stokesmessiah]

I thought that Starbucks were being condemned for morally questionable but perfectly legal tax avoidance. Rangers completely evaded it.

The EBT scheme that Der Hun used was perfectly legal, it is the way in which they abused it that has caused the problem.

[ballengeich]

Their last accounts showed only 256 employees and that has been slashed to 255.

Don't forget about the net loss of around 15 players who didn't TUPE. That's what's got the wage bill down to £6 million from £30 million and made Green's newco a financial success.

[Stevie Reid]

The EBT scheme that Der Hun used was perfectly legal, it is the way in which they abused it that has caused the problem.

I was talking about the non payment of tax that caused HMRC to put them into administration, not the EBTs.

[PatHead]

How thick are the Hun and the Daily ****** and when will they learn this is a new club?

When Third Division leaders Queen's Park visit Ibrox, it will resurrect world football's oldest rivalry - the Spiders having first played Rangers 137 years ago.
Full story: Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/)
The last time Queen's Park beat Rangers, in the semi-finals of the Glasgow Merchants' Charities Cup in 1953, the result was decided by the toss of a coin.
Full story: The Sun (http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/)

[LeighLoyal]

How thick are the Hun and the Daily ****** and when will they learn this is a new club?

When Third Division leaders Queen's Park visit Ibrox, it will resurrect world football's oldest rivalry - the Spiders having first played Rangers 137 years ago.
Full story: Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/)
The last time Queen's Park beat Rangers, in the semi-finals of the Glasgow Merchants' Charities Cup in 1953, the result was decided by the toss of a coin.
Full story: The Sun (http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/)



Wouldn't touch either of those Sevco loving rags with a barge pole.

[Ozyhibby]

How thick are the Hun and the Daily ****** and when will they learn this is a new club?

When Third Division leaders Queen's Park visit Ibrox, it will resurrect world football's oldest rivalry - the Spiders having first played Rangers 137 years ago.
Full story: Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/)
The last time Queen's Park beat Rangers, in the semi-finals of the Glasgow Merchants' Charities Cup in 1953, the result was decided by the toss of a coin.
Full story: The Sun (http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/)

When will people learn not to read those sorry excuse for newspapers?

[Part/Time Supporter]

How thick are the Hun and the Daily ****** and when will they learn this is a new club?

When Third Division leaders Queen's Park visit Ibrox, it will resurrect world football's oldest rivalry - the Spiders having first played Rangers 137 years ago.
Full story: Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/)
The last time Queen's Park beat Rangers, in the semi-finals of the Glasgow Merchants' Charities Cup in 1953, the result was decided by the toss of a coin.
Full story: The Sun (http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/)

Even if you accept the premise that it's the same Huns, QPFC v RFC isn't the oldest derby in the world. Notts Forest and Notts County first played each other in 1866.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nottingham_derby

[CropleyWasGod]

When will people learn not to read those sorry excuse for newspapers?

Probably when the likes of Keith Jackson stop breaking stories like "Craig Whyte used the Ticketus money to fund the Rangers take-over".

July 2011, according to them, but certainly before the OldCo went into administration..:wink:

http://www.scotzine.com/2012/01/rangers-debt-hits-35-4-million-after-whyte-sells-season-tickets/

They do get it right sometimes.

[LeighLoyal]

Probably when the likes of Keith Jackson stop breaking stories like "Craig Whyte used the Ticketus money to fund the Rangers take-over".

July 2011, according to them, but certainly before the OldCo went into administration..:wink:

http://www.scotzine.com/2012/01/rangers-debt-hits-35-4-million-after-whyte-sells-season-tickets/

They do get it right sometimes.



I thought it was the English Daily Mail that broke that story and they'd no choice.

[Phil MaGlass]

How thick are the Hun and the Daily ****** and when will they learn this is a new club?

When Third Division leaders Queen's Park visit Ibrox, it will resurrect world football's oldest rivalry - the Spiders having first played Rangers 137 years ago.
Full story: Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/)
The last time Queen's Park beat Rangers, in the semi-finals of the Glasgow Merchants' Charities Cup in 1953, the result was decided by the toss of a coin.
Full story: The Sun (http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/)

shouldnt it say the worlds youngest rivalry?

[green glory]

Celtic v Clyde is the oldest Glasgow derby apparently. Neither Govan nor Maryhill were in Glasgow at the time.

[joe breezy]

Celtic v Clyde is the oldest Glasgow derby apparently. Neither Govan nor Maryhill were in Glasgow at the time.

Yes but clyde haven't played in Glasgow for years - even before they played in Cumbernauld it was Rutherglen, not technically Glasgow (a lot further from Glasgow city centre than Maryhill for example)

[joe breezy]

Moan the Spiders anyway

[Seveno]

At least Queens Park, being amateurs, won't have dual contracts.

[jgl07]

Even if you accept the premise that it's the same Huns, QPFC v RFC isn't the oldest derby in the world. Notts Forest and Notts County first played each other in 1866.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nottingham_derby

Sorry to be pedantic but it is Nottm Forest and Notts County.

[jgl07]

Don't forget about the net loss of around 15 players who didn't TUPE. That's what's got the wage bill down to £6 million from £30 million and made Green's newco a financial success.

Where did you get the £6 million figure from? Don't forget the players brought in such as Francisco Sandaza, Dean Shiels, David Templeton, Ian Black, Kevin Kyle, and Sébastien Faure most of who will be on big wages that no SPL club bar Celtic could afford.

If Sevco are such a financial success, why did Green go down the IPO route?

[LeighLoyal]

Where did you get the £6 million figure from? Don't forget the players brought in such as Francisco Sandaza, Dean Shiels, David Templeton, Ian Black, Kevin Kyle, and Sébastien Faure most of who will be on big wages that no SPL club bar Celtic could afford.

If Sevco are such a financial success, why did Green go down the IPO route?



It's a lot more than 6m, hence why Crazy Chuck needs the Orc piggy banks emptied. I would guess the real wage bill is double that £6m Hertz had a wage bill at around £12m for several seasons, I imagine Sevco is similar. Sally and McCulloch alone will be 2m.

[green glory]

The FTTT verdict is apparently with both concerned parties.

[jgl07]

Probably when the likes of Keith Jackson stop breaking stories like "Craig Whyte used the Ticketus money to fund the Rangers take-over".

July 2011, according to them, but certainly before the OldCo went into administration..:wink:

http://www.scotzine.com/2012/01/rangers-debt-hits-35-4-million-after-whyte-sells-season-tickets/

They do get it right sometimes.

Just like a stopped clock!

[grunt]

Where did you get the £6 million figure from? Don't forget the players brought in such as Francisco Sandaza, Dean Shiels, David Templeton, Ian Black, Kevin Kyle, and Sébastien Faure most of who will be on big wages that no SPL club bar Celtic could afford.


Green was quoted from a meeting with Rangers supporters saying that the wage bill had been redcued from £30m to £6m. If you google Charles Green £6m wages you get a bunch of stories. No one believes it for a second, even Rangers supporters, and even if true, it's still possibly the third highest wage bill in the Scottish leagues - depending on how Hearts' cost cutting is going.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/leaguedivision3/4576955/.html

[Ozyhibby]

The old Rangers, MIH and HMRC all have the FTT decision according to Rangers Tax Case.
If it has gone well for them then I expect David Murray will be shouting it from the rooftops before the end of the weekend.
Silence probably means it has gone as expected.

[Caversham Green]

Where did you get the £6 million figure from? Don't forget the players brought in such as Francisco Sandaza, Dean Shiels, David Templeton, Ian Black, Kevin Kyle, and Sébastien Faure most of who will be on big wages that no SPL club bar Celtic could afford.

If Sevco are such a financial success, why did Green go down the IPO route?

While not wishing to speak for Ballengeich, I think there may have been a degree of sarcasm in his post. He was replying to my comment about staff numbers being slashed from 256 to 255.

[ballengeich]

Where did you get the £6 million figure from? Don't forget the players brought in such as Francisco Sandaza, Dean Shiels, David Templeton, Ian Black, Kevin Kyle, and Sébastien Faure most of who will be on big wages that no SPL club bar Celtic could afford.

If Sevco are such a financial success, why did Green go down the IPO route?

The reduction from £30 to £6 million was in one of Green's statements about the share issue. Surely you don't doubt him? Charles is an honourable man. :greengrin

[ballengeich]

While not wishing to speak for Ballengeich, I think there may have been a degree of sarcasm in his post. He was replying to my comment about staff numbers being slashed from 256 to 255.

Indeed. Charlie's claim is that wages have been reduced by £24 million since last season. There's been a net reduction of 15-20 in the playing staff. Has a single MSM outlet expressed the slightest scepticism about these figures?

[grunt]

Has a single MSM outlet expressed the slightest scepticism about these figures?I have to say that with every week which passes, it is this aspect which is becoming more annoying. The only people to point out the contradictions and blatant lies coming from Rangers are the forums and twitter folk. The BBC online and on the radio continue to provide outright support for Rangers, and the newspapers repeat every utterance verbatim with nary a quizzical comment.

[Moulin Yarns]

The reduction from £30 to £6 million was in one of Green's statements about the share issue. Surely you don't doubt him? Charles is an honourable man. :greengrin

Don't forget, th £6m is just the wage bill. There is still the £24 in trust funds to take account of.

[Jack Hackett]

Maybe Green actually meant to say £6m so far this season :greengrin

[grunt]

I thought this was quite good:

http://www.twohundredpercent.net/?p=20932

[Seveno]

I thought this was quite good:

http://www.twohundredpercent.net/?p=20932

Yes, an enjoyable read. You would be hard pressed though to decide who, from their current owner back to the previous two, had told the most lies.

I find it somewhat appropriate that such a vile institution attracts so many crooks.

[magpie1892]

When will people learn not to read those sorry excuse for newspapers?

When will people learn that this is how papers (especially those published in Glasgow) retain a readership?

Naive much?

[LeighLoyal]

Lance Armstrong statement:


"Those races were won on the track, I want to know the names of these people..."



Another cup bites the dust!

[greenginger]

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/10/22/the-rangers-shareholder-list/


The list of share holders in The Rangers/ Zombie Huns. Got a feeling I know who a couple of the mugs, sorry minor investors. :greengrin

[LeighLoyal]

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/10/22/the-rangers-shareholder-list/


The list of share holders in The Rangers/ Zombie Huns. Got a feeling I know who a couple of the mugs, sorry minor investors. :greengrin



Sally, £1m in newcorpse shares. Would like to know if he paid fair value and if not if tax will be applied when newcorpse float like a turd on the AIM. Tax dodging turds.

[Caversham Green]

Sally, £1m in newcorpse shares. Would like to know if he paid fair value and if not if tax will be applied when newcorpse float like a turd on the AIM. Tax dodging turds.

It might be £1m or it might not - The list only gives the number of shares, not the value. It's quite common for shares to be issed with a nominal value that is less than £1 - for example Hibs shares are 2p each while the Oldhun's shares were 10p (as are the Yams).

As I said earlier, it may be coincidence, but 22m shares at 25p gives us £5.5m - now where have we seen that number before....

[Kaiser1962]

It might be £1m or it might not - The list only gives the number of shares, not the value. It's quite common for shares to be issed with a nominal value that is less than £1 - for example Hibs shares are 2p each while the Oldhun's shares were 10p (as are the Yams).

As I said earlier, it may be coincidence, but 22m shares at 25p gives us £5.5m - now where have we seen that number before....


And Chico has nil shares which means despite his phenoemenol claims regarding Newhun's financial future he has not been prepared to forward one penny of his own money.

[CropleyWasGod]

And Chico has nil shares which means despite his phenoemenol claims regarding Newhun's financial future he has not been prepared to forward one penny of his own money.

He lent the company £5.5m for the asset purchase, which (as Cav suggests) may be paid off by the shares issued thus far.

The last line, though, says that he is due a 10% bonus for a successful float. It doesn't specify "10% of what?".

[LeighLoyal]

He lent the company £5.5m for the asset purchase, which (as Cav suggests) may be paid off by the shares issued thus far.

The last line, though, says that he is due a 10% bonus for a successful float. It doesn't specify "10% of what?".




We can assume when he collects this mysterious Sevcorpse percentage he exits stage left with a suitcase of zombie cash.

[CropleyWasGod]

We can assume when he collects this mysterious Sevcorpse percentage he exits stage left with a suitcase of zombie cash.

I think it's more of an "if", given that a successful flotation is by no means a certainty.

[PatHead]

Uefa list of registered clubs....................

http://www.uefa.com/teamsandplayers/teams/atoz/letter=R/index.html


At least they haven't fallen into the same trap as Scottish Press and say it is the same old Rangers

[Part/Time Supporter]

Uefa list of registered clubs....................

http://www.uefa.com/teamsandplayers/teams/atoz/letter=R/index.html


At least they haven't fallen into the same trap as Scottish Press and say it is the same old Rangers

The Rangers "men's" team has been deleted because they aren't in the SPL. There aren't any SFL teams in that link.

[LeighLoyal]

The Rangers "men's" team has been deleted because they aren't in the SPL. There aren't any SFL teams in that link.


If and when a Zombie huns team is in the spl, T'Rangers 2012 at best on UEFA list!

[jgl07]

The Rangers "men's" team has been deleted because they aren't in the SPL. There aren't any SFL teams in that link.

Why the womens team and the futsal teams then?

:confused:

[Part/Time Supporter]

Why the womens team and the futsal teams then?

:confused:

They play in the top division of those competitions.

[Kaiser1962]

He lent the company £5.5m for the asset purchase, which (as Cav suggests) may be paid off by the shares issued thus far.

The last line, though, says that he is due a 10% bonus for a successful float. It doesn't specify "10% of what?".


Are we sure it was "his" money? I always thought he was the frontman for some sort of coalition of the stupid who had put up the cash, hence the shareholdings.

[CropleyWasGod]

Are we sure it was "his" money? I always thought he was the frontman for some sort of coalition of the stupid who had put up the cash, hence the shareholdings.

Fair point. When I say "him", I meant him/one of his companies/him and his mates.

The main point was, though, to say that "he" etc had lent the cash to NewCo, rather than actually bought shares in the company with it.

[Jack Hackett]

It's beginning to get on my thruppeny's how long it's taking for the FTT verdict to be released. They said on Sept 12th it would be in October, but they appear to be hanging on to the very end of the month to do it. Why? What possible purpose does it serve dragging it out like this?

....and have the Duffers handed over the leavings to BDO for liquidation yet? The lack of any 'official' clarification is frustrating. I want to see action, and I want to see it NOW

[jonty]

Uefa list of registered clubs....................

http://www.uefa.com/teamsandplayers/teams/atoz/letter=R/index.html


At least they haven't fallen into the same trap as Scottish Press and say it is the same old Rangers

Admit it - who clicked on S looking for Sevco FC :greengrin

[Jack Hackett]

Admit it - who clicked on S looking for Sevco FC :greengrin

I looked under 'T' for 'THE' Rangers, but the closest I could find was 'The Glen Bar' :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

Admit it - who clicked on S looking for Sevco FC :greengrin

Guilty! :agree:

:greengrin

[green glory]

It's beginning to get on my thruppeny's how long it's taking for the FTT verdict to be released. They said on Sept 12th it would be in October, but they appear to be hanging on to the very end of the month to do it. Why? What possible purpose does it serve dragging it out like this?

....and have the Duffers handed over the leavings to BDO for liquidation yet? The lack of any 'official' clarification is frustrating. I want to see action, and I want to see it NOW

Have no fear. Mere days to go. The verdict was with Murray and Hector as of Friday. Maximum two weeks before it's public. Rumour is it's what we all expected . Guilty guilty guilty!!!

[lapsedhibee]

Have no fear. Mere days to go. The verdict was with Murray and Hector as of Friday. Maximum two weeks before it's public. Rumour is it's what we all expected . Guilty guilty guilty!!!

:tsk tsk: Quite, quite wrong to pre-empt the official announcement.

But just in case, I'm adopting this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6INVAMAMoc) rightaway as an earworm.

[monktonharp]

Have no fear. Mere days to go. The verdict was with Murray and Hector as of Friday. Maximum two weeks before it's public. Rumour is it's what we all expected . Guilty guilty guilty!!!If I was a betting man, and I'm not, I wouldnae bet on that. but I like the way your thinking:wink:

[steakbake]

Have no fear. Mere days to go. The verdict was with Murray and Hector as of Friday. Maximum two weeks before it's public. Rumour is it's what we all expected . Guilty guilty guilty!!!

What would be the consequence of that result? Who is responsible for it - the original RFC or Sevco?

[HoboHarry]

What would be the consequence of that result? Who is responsible for it - the original RFC or Sevco?
That's my question too. If the verdict is guilty, what then?

[CropleyWasGod]

What would be the consequence of that result? Who is responsible for it - the original RFC or Sevco?

The original.

The only real effect a "guilty" verdict would have would be to dilute the dividend to the other creditors.

It is possible that HMRC might then take action against the directors of the Oldco. However, there should be no implications for the new company.

[greenginger]

The original.

The only real effect a "guilty" verdict would have would be to dilute the dividend to the other creditors.

It is possible that HMRC might then take action against the directors of the Oldco. However, there should be no implications for the new company.

Except for the shame and humiliation because after all, they are the same club as they bought ALL their history. :greengrin

The notion that Scottish clubs did the right thing in banishing the Govan football institution to the bottom league might just sink in to footballing pundits on Sky Sports etc. and to a few more politicians nearer home.

[Kaiser1962]

Fair point. When I say "him", I meant him/one of his companies/him and his mates.

The main point was, though, to say that "he" etc had lent the cash to NewCo, rather than actually bought shares in the company with it.


I know that this is what we are told happened the bit I am having trouble with his public utterances stating that Newhun "have no debt". Surely it cant be both? Also there now appears to be a list of 19.8m shares that has miraculously appeared despite there having been no notification to CoHo of this, and I understand that there has to be notification within 30 days. He may be a Mr. Super Salesman but like most of his breed, the ends justify the means but I can only imagine the carnage that is left in his wake.

My understanding of the £5.5m, however, is that he borrowed the money as a short term loan on the promise of quick and hugely profitable returns and now, as the lenders are asking for their money back, we are having a public share issue. It may be that the lenders are getting a bit jittery given the attention Green is attracting or, it may be as others have pointed out, they need to get their money back and scatter the company ownership far and wide before BDO begin seriously digging. After all he bought Rangers assetts for £1.5m and (claims) he now has a valuation of those assetts of £80m. Obviously not the same valuers that D+P used, unfortunately.

My point was really that if this was such a sure thing them why did Green choose to borrow the money from investors and not use his own which would have enabled him, personally, to make the killing?

[ballengeich]

Except for the shame and humiliation because after all, they are the same club as they bought ALL their history. :greengrin

The notion that Scottish clubs did the right thing in banishing the Govan football institution to the bottom league might just sink in to footballing pundits on Sky Sports etc. and to a few more politicians nearer home.

If Newco has bought all of Rangers' history then they must surely accept liability for any football penalties due for misconduct by previous owners of the club. I'm interested in just what Green has signed up for when the SFA licence was transferred.

If the SPL investigation into dual contracts decides that results in past years should be amended, then I would expect the owners of the history to be liable for the return of any dishonestly earned prize money. Will Sevco agree to this?

[CropleyWasGod]

If Newco has bought all of Rangers' history then they must surely accept liability for any football penalties due for misconduct by previous owners of the club. I'm interested in just what Green has signed up for when the SFA licence was transferred.

If the SPL investigation into dual contracts decides that results in past years should be amended, then I would expect the owners of the history to be liable for the return of any dishonestly earned prize money. Will Sevco agree to this?

Are these football penalties, though? (devil's advocate smiley..)

[ballengeich]

Are these football penalties, though? (devil's advocate smiley..)

I suspect that's a subject which lawyers will investigate at great length, for appropriate remuneration of course.:cb

[CropleyWasGod]

I suspect that's a subject which lawyers will investigate at great length, for appropriate remuneration of course.:cb

IMO, it's not really relevant.

Unless the SFA/SPL have come to an agreement with the NewCo that all football debts have to be paid off, AND that amounts due to HMRC are classed as such,.... all of which is unlikely.... the tax debts stay with the old company.

[ballengeich]

IMO, it's not really relevant.

Unless the SFA/SPL have come to an agreement with the NewCo that all football debts have to be paid off, AND that amounts due to HMRC are classed as such,.... all of which is unlikely.... the tax debts stay with the old company.

I agree with you about the money due to HMRC. What isn't clear to me is the extent to which the SFA licence agreement allows any future penalties to be imposed by the SFA/SPL for past offences. NewCo have agreed to pay some outstanding transfer fees. They accepted a reduced form of the player registration embargo. I've no doubt that title stripping can be done, but what else? I just don't know what the details are and that's where I see a possible future legal battle.

[mim]

The Rangers "men's" team has been deleted because they aren't in the SPL. There aren't any SFL teams in that link.

Nah they're still there. Just got the country wrong (http://www.uefa.com/teamsandplayers/teams/club=80409/profile/index.html) :wink:

[s.a.m]

24 October 2012 Last updated at 18:07 Craig Whyte recorded Rangers Ticketus deal talks with David Grier
By Mark Daly BBC Scotland Investigations Correspondent http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/63687000/jpg/_63687762_17537db5-699c-4cac-b98d-0652b76b7f37.jpg Mr Grier has said he was only aware of the Ticketus deal in August 2011
Continue reading the main story (http://www.hibs.net/#story_continues_1) Related Stories

Whyte makes Ticketus deal claims (http://www.hibs.net/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19920930)
Whyte: I found buyer for Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19976991)
Murray 'to blame' for Gers' woes (http://www.hibs.net/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19923442)

BBC Scotland has uncovered new evidence showing Rangers administrators Duff and Phelps knew Craig Whyte had sold season tickets to buy the club.
It indicates they were intent on denying it because they thought they could get away with it.
In May, the BBC suggested Duff and Phelps partner, David Grier, may have known about the £25m Ticketus deal last April, before Mr Whyte's takeover.
Mr Grier denied any knowledge of the deal until August 2011.
The BBC has obtained a recording of a meeting between Mr Whyte and Mr Grier, which show Duff and Phelps did know.
Mr Whyte bought Rangers from Sir David Murray for £1 and paid an £18m debt to Lloyds Bank by selling three years of season tickets to finance firm Ticketus for £25m.
As well as being involved in Mr Whyte's takeover, Duff and Phelps were appointed as Rangers' administrators after the club plunged into insolvency in February 2012.
In May, a BBC Scotland investigation suggested that Mr Grier may have known that about the controversial Ticketus deal before the Whyte takeover was complete.
Mr Grier, and Duff and Phelps, denied the claims and said he was unaware of this particular Ticketus deal until August 2011.
Last week, in a BBC interview, Mr Whyte said that "everybody who was involved in the deal team at the time knew about" the Ticketus deal.
He added: "They (Duff and Phelps) knew everything, they attended meetings, they were copied into all the emails, they were there on the day of completion. They knew from the start."
That claim prompted Rangers' joint administrator Paul Clark, of Duff and Phelps, to respond: "The allegations against the administrators, who are officers of the court, are false, malicious and without foundation.
"In addition, as administrators, we instigated legal proceedings against Mr Whyte's solicitors (Collyer Bristow) in the High Court in London and those proceedings are centred round the very serious allegation that Mr Whyte was involved in a conspiracy which deprived Rangers of many millions of pounds.
"Our conduct of the Rangers administration has been the subject of intense public scrutiny and we are wholly satisfied it was carried out to the highest professional standards."
BBC Scotland has now received a secret recording that Mr Whyte says he made at a meeting between him and Mr Grier in a private members' club in London on 31 May, after its investigation was broadcast.
The recording, which is to be used in a forthcoming court case involving Duff and Phelps and Mr Whyte's former lawyers Collyer Bristow, has been obtained legitimately by BBC Scotland.
During the exchange, Mr Grier said: "I'll tell you what we're doing with that just so you…
Mr Whyte: "Yeah.
Mr Grier: "We, we went to see counsel yesterday and had a full sort of debrief of all the email correspondence.
Mr Whyte: "Yep.
Mr Grier: "Now, the fact is that we probably did know what was going on with Ticketus. There's no email traffic whatsoever.
Mr Whyte: "That says that you did?"
Mr Grier: "That says that we did.
Mr White: "But we all know that you did and f****** hell.
Mr Grier: "Yeah, yeah. There's no…we were not involved in dealing with Ticketus directly.
Mr Whyte: "Yeah. So you knew the structures of the deal. You were dealing with Lloyds.
Mr Grier: "Absolutely.
Mr Whyte: "And the Ticketus part was Saffreys.
Mr Grier "Yeah. So we've maintained that line quite rigorously."
BBC Scotland has been able to confirm with a voice recognition expert that the recording is of Mr Grier.
Duff and Phelps have yet to respond to the publication of the 31 May conversation.
Regarding previous allegations they said: "Our conduct of the Rangers administration has been the subject of intense public scrutiny and we are wholly satisfied it was carried out to the highest professional standards

[Spike Mandela]

24 October 2012 Last updated at 18:07 Craig Whyte recorded Rangers Ticketus deal talks with David Grier
By Mark Daly BBC Scotland Investigations Correspondent http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/63687000/jpg/_63687762_17537db5-699c-4cac-b98d-0652b76b7f37.jpg Mr Grier has said he was only aware of the Ticketus deal in August 2011
Continue reading the main story (http://www.hibs.net/#story_continues_1) Related Stories

Whyte makes Ticketus deal claims (http://www.hibs.net/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19920930)
Whyte: I found buyer for Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19976991)
Murray 'to blame' for Gers' woes (http://www.hibs.net/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-19923442)

BBC Scotland has uncovered new evidence showing Rangers administrators Duff and Phelps knew Craig Whyte had sold season tickets to buy the club.
It indicates they were intent on denying it because they thought they could get away with it.
In May, the BBC suggested Duff and Phelps partner, David Grier, may have known about the £25m Ticketus deal last April, before Mr Whyte's takeover.
Mr Grier denied any knowledge of the deal until August 2011.
The BBC has obtained a recording of a meeting between Mr Whyte and Mr Grier, which show Duff and Phelps did know.
Mr Whyte bought Rangers from Sir David Murray for £1 and paid an £18m debt to Lloyds Bank by selling three years of season tickets to finance firm Ticketus for £25m.
As well as being involved in Mr Whyte's takeover, Duff and Phelps were appointed as Rangers' administrators after the club plunged into insolvency in February 2012.
In May, a BBC Scotland investigation suggested that Mr Grier may have known that about the controversial Ticketus deal before the Whyte takeover was complete.
Mr Grier, and Duff and Phelps, denied the claims and said he was unaware of this particular Ticketus deal until August 2011.
Last week, in a BBC interview, Mr Whyte said that "everybody who was involved in the deal team at the time knew about" the Ticketus deal.
He added: "They (Duff and Phelps) knew everything, they attended meetings, they were copied into all the emails, they were there on the day of completion. They knew from the start."
That claim prompted Rangers' joint administrator Paul Clark, of Duff and Phelps, to respond: "The allegations against the administrators, who are officers of the court, are false, malicious and without foundation.
"In addition, as administrators, we instigated legal proceedings against Mr Whyte's solicitors (Collyer Bristow) in the High Court in London and those proceedings are centred round the very serious allegation that Mr Whyte was involved in a conspiracy which deprived Rangers of many millions of pounds.
"Our conduct of the Rangers administration has been the subject of intense public scrutiny and we are wholly satisfied it was carried out to the highest professional standards."
BBC Scotland has now received a secret recording that Mr Whyte says he made at a meeting between him and Mr Grier in a private members' club in London on 31 May, after its investigation was broadcast.
The recording, which is to be used in a forthcoming court case involving Duff and Phelps and Mr Whyte's former lawyers Collyer Bristow, has been obtained legitimately by BBC Scotland.
During the exchange, Mr Grier said: "I'll tell you what we're doing with that just so you…
Mr Whyte: "Yeah.
Mr Grier: "We, we went to see counsel yesterday and had a full sort of debrief of all the email correspondence.
Mr Whyte: "Yep.
Mr Grier: "Now, the fact is that we probably did know what was going on with Ticketus. There's no email traffic whatsoever.
Mr Whyte: "That says that you did?"
Mr Grier: "That says that we did.
Mr White: "But we all know that you did and f****** hell.
Mr Grier: "Yeah, yeah. There's no…we were not involved in dealing with Ticketus directly.
Mr Whyte: "Yeah. So you knew the structures of the deal. You were dealing with Lloyds.
Mr Grier: "Absolutely.
Mr Whyte: "And the Ticketus part was Saffreys.
Mr Grier "Yeah. So we've maintained that line quite rigorously."
BBC Scotland has been able to confirm with a voice recognition expert that the recording is of Mr Grier.
Duff and Phelps have yet to respond to the publication of the 31 May conversation.
Regarding previous allegations they said: "Our conduct of the Rangers administration has been the subject of intense public scrutiny and we are wholly satisfied it was carried out to the highest professional standards

Ha ha. You've been framed.

[down-the-slope]

D&P now well and truly in the Pooh :greengrin

[grunt]

D&P now well and truly in the Pooh :greengrinHaha what a guy Craigie Whyte is!
He tapes private conversations with his advisers!
Nice one.

[greenginger]

I wonder if he has any more tapes up his sleeve , David Murray, SFA, Chuckie Green ? this could run and run. :greengrin

[s.a.m]

Haha what a guy Craigie Whyte is!
He tapes private conversations with his advisers!
Nice one.

:agree:
FootballFutbolFitba‏@footbfutblfitba (FootballFutbolFitba‏@footbfutblfitba) Craig Whyte. As Jim White would have said in his Scotsport days, "what a character."

[LeighLoyal]

I wonder if he has any more tapes up his sleeve , David Murray, SFA, Chuckie Green ? this could run and run. :greengrin




This should unravel the whole Sevco purchase, if I was an oldcorpse creditor I would be instructing my lawyer to sew both Sevco and D&P.

[shagpile]

This should unravel the whole Sevco purchase, if I was an oldcorpse creditor I would be instructing my lawyer to sew both Sevco and D&P.

Together?

[LeighLoyal]

Together?


Two for the price of one! :aok: Grier might employ the Tommy Sheridan "out to get me" line. It was a Murdoch/CIA conspiracy to frame him! :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

sew away









might even sue them as well

[CropleyWasGod]

Haha what a guy Craigie Whyte is!
He tapes private conversations with his advisers!
Nice one.

We touched on this last week. Every one of them will be stitching each other up now. :greengrin

[Bishop Hibee]

Haha what a guy Craigie Whyte is!
He tapes private conversations with his advisers!
Nice one.

Legend :not worth Arise Sir Craig, slayer of the hun dragon:greengrin

This shows the utter travesty of Duff and Phelps being appointed administrators.

[grunt]

Recording is on the BBC site here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-20075671#?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The story that just keeps giving!
Have the hordes started gathering at Greyskull yet?

[blackpoolhibs]

This should unravel the whole Sevco purchase, if I was an oldcorpse creditor I would be instructing my lawyer to sew both Sevco and D&P.

That would probably need a thread of its own?

[CropleyWasGod]

That would probably need a thread of its own?

Nah.. this one just keeps bobbin along.

[grunt]

That would probably need a thread of its own?At first I didn't understand your post, but now I've cottoned on.

[blackpoolhibs]

Nah.. this one just keeps bobbin along.


At first I didn't understand your post, but now I've cottoned on.

I can see Whyte stitching a few of these up. :wink:

[Jonnyboy]

Just one big stitch up really

Aaaarg G you got there first :greengrin

[blackpoolhibs]

Just one big stitch up really

So close. :greengrin

[Jonnyboy]

So close. :greengrin

Interlaced even :greengrin

[blackpoolhibs]

Interlaced even :greengrin

I can sense a bit of needle in the ibrox camp now John. :wink:

[Jonnyboy]

I can sense a bit of needle in the ibrox camp now John. :wink:

Yip. A few erses knitting button holes :agree:

[Thecat23]

You really couldn't make this up. Mr Whyte is a sly dog!

[Biggie]

Think this was covered a few thousand pages ago. Can you not read the whole thread!!!!!

Sure Hibs never actually folded we just didn't have a team or the funds to compete for a couple of years before the original "Grandpa " Farmer and his mates helped reconstitute the club, got a team together and helped us return to the leagues.

Jonnyboy might tell you if you ask him nicely.

It's all beginning to unravel....

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Glasgow press will be struggling to put a cheery slant on this for the great unwashed tomorrow! I'm sure they'll try though.

[ballengeich]

Yip. A few erses knitting button holes :agree:

It's a purler. A few knitted brows around.

[LeighLoyal]

D&P are toast and as a result Sevco are clinging to life rafts, but who else has Craigy Bhoy taped? I bet a number of erses are going in and out tonight. No doubt Jabba Traynor will wheel onto Newsnight tonight to give the newcorpse line, or maybe he'll turn like Lazarus! :agree: 'I always knew Craig Whyte was telling the truth!'

:greengrin

[s.a.m]

Did one of the tabloids not have a front page splash last week on Craigie's "tissue of lies" or summat like that, following his interview??

[grunt]

D&P are toast and as a result Sevco are clinging to life rafts...
Sadly I doubt this revelation will have any impact on Sevco.

[HoboHarry]

Sadly I doubt this revelation will have any impact on Sevco.
Oh I think you are quite wrong there. The way this whole mess is coming unglued makes me wonder if they will even last the season. There must be at the very least half a dozen squeaky bums out there lol. Not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that some people are staring jail time in the face. Can you imagine being involved in the downfall of Rangers and then having to spend time in Shotts or Barlinnie? Lol and lol again......

[grunt]

Oh I think you are quite wrong there.....I'd love to be proved wrong, but I fear that Sevco are sufficiently distant from this event to avoid fallout. If Whyte releases tapes of discussions with Green from before May, well that would be something else.

[LeighLoyal]

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I fear that Sevco are sufficiently distant from this event to avoid fallout. If Whyte releases tapes of discussions with Green from before May, well that would be something else.


Aside from D&P's now proven conflict of interest, if Whyte can prove he did have a floating charge it could unwind the whole deal or at the very least mean litigation and uncertainty for a hamstrung Sevco. So let the zombie horde buy the shares. Fools and their money (giro's). :thumbsup:

[PatHead]

Wouldn't bet against Whyte having Green tapes and just ensuring he gets his money from a private arrangement by taking someone else down.

[CropleyWasGod]

Aside from D&P's now proven conflict of interest, if Whyte can prove he did have a floating charge it could unwind the whole deal or at the very least mean litigation and uncertainty for a hamstrung Sevco. So let the zombie horde buy the shares. Fools and their money (giro's). :thumbsup:

Whyte did have a floating charge. That is not in dispute; it was registered at Companies House.

However, for a charge to have any value, there has to be a debt. Whyte was not owed anything by the Oldco. Therefore the charge is worthless.

[LeighLoyal]

Whyte did have a floating charge. That is not in dispute; it was registered at Companies House.

However, for a charge to have any value, there has to be a debt. Whyte was not owed anything by the Oldco. Therefore the charge is worthless.



My understanding was in the event of insolvency the assets would be sold and he as the secure creditor would be paid first. D&P ignored his claim.

I suspect BDO would unwind this dodgy deal on day one if we were dealing with any regular public company with similar shenanigans, but we have to factor in the Orc violence and intimidation, plus the compliant/complicit Glasgow media. We'll see. Popcorn is back on the stove!

[steviehibsleith]

Im not legally trained but if this is true and Grier is a partner in Duff and Phelps then surelly they must be found guilty of some form of criminal negligence/charges
And if so then all decisions including selling Rangers to the yorkshireman are null and void?

Administration again:greengrin

[grunt]

My understanding was in the event of insolvency the assets would be sold and he as the secure creditor would be paid first. D&P ignored his claim. CWG's point is that Whyte wasn't a creditor, so he had no claim. He may or may not have held a floating charge or security, but if he's not due any money then the security is worthless. (At least, I think that's what he's saying).

[The Green Goblin]

Together?

:greengrin

[shagpile]

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I fear that Sevco are sufficiently distant from this event to avoid fallout. If Whyte releases tapes of discussions with Green from before May, well that would be something else.

I don't see how they can be THAT distant? Green 'buys' the assets from D&P, now pretty much proven to be dodgy---something everyone kinda knew ----at a knock down price. Green is up to his forehead in this too. Didn't he attempt to buy property from Murray a while back?
They are all a bunch of crooks. They have now fallen out. Could be fun.

[CropleyWasGod]

My understanding was in the event of insolvency the assets would be sold and he as the secure creditor would be paid first. D&P ignored his claim.

I suspect BDO would unwind this dodgy deal on day one if we were dealing with any regular public company with similar shenanigans, but we have to factor in the Orc violence and intimidation, plus the compliant/complicit Glasgow media. We'll see. Popcorn is back on the stove!

They ignored the claim because he wasn't due anything.

[LeighLoyal]

They ignored the claim because he wasn't due anything.


Not sure you can be sure of that though when this is the same discredited mob who denied knowledge of the Ticketus deal and are sewing Whyte's solicitors on oldcorpse's behalf. Whyte did state he was secured on the Ticketus deal. D&P just wanted to run up a big fee and get their own bag of loot. Whyte seems to think he has money due anyway.

[CropleyWasGod]

Not sure you can be sure of that though when this is the same discredited mob who denied knowledge of the Ticketus deal and are sewing Whyte's solicitors on oldcorpse's behalf. Whyte did state he was secured on the Ticketus deal. D&P just wanted to run up a big fee and get their own bag of loot. Whyte seems to think he has money due anyway.

Go back to about page 5 on this thread :greengrin

Whyte's original position was that he had used his/his company's money to pay off Lloyds TSB. Accordingly RFC owed him that cash, and he took out a charge to secure the debt. So far, so good.

However, as we later discovered, he had actually used the Ticketus money (which was due to RFC) to fund the purchase. I can't remember the numbers, but the money he took from Ticketus was more than the money RFC owed the bank.

Net effect... RFC owed Whyte nothing, indeed he owed them.

[LeighLoyal]

Go back to about page 5 on this thread :greengrin

Whyte's original position was that he had used his/his company's money to pay off Lloyds TSB. Accordingly RFC owed him that cash, and he took out a charge to secure the debt. So far, so good.

However, as we later discovered, he had actually used the Ticketus money (which was due to RFC) to fund the purchase. I can't remember the numbers, but the money he took from Ticketus was more than the money RFC owed the bank.

Net effect... RFC owed Whyte nothing, indeed he owed them.


yeah, I know that, but if the Ticketus money was secured to Whyte personally and not oldcorpse as he claimed it was ... We have the the Collyer Bristow case that's outcome will reveal more I assume.

[Seveno]

We also have to go back to the time when Chuckie went north to meet Craigie to get him to sell his shares in Hunco for £1, and Chuckie gave him £2.

What was the real deal behind that ? Craigie must have been told that he was in for a cut later on. I'll bet he taped that converstaion.

[CropleyWasGod]

yeah, I know that, but if the Ticketus money was secured to Whyte personally and not oldcorpse as he claimed it was ... We have the the Collyer Bristow case that's outcome will reveal more I assume.

The Ticketus money wasn't secured, it was the money that Whyte paid off the bank with that was. And that security was lodged with Companies House.

[LeighLoyal]

The Ticketus money wasn't secured, it was the money that Whyte paid off the bank with that was. And that security was lodged with Companies House.


He gave them personal gaurantees.




Anyway, Channel 4 (Alex Thomson) are running a segment on hun intimidation on their news tomorrow.

[CropleyWasGod]

He gave them personal gaurantees.




Anyway, Channel 4 (Alex Thomson) are running a segment on hun intimidation on their news tomorrow.

CW gave Ticketus a personal guarantee, but that's not relevant to his security over RFC.

[sadtom]

Mibbae you legal peeps can enlighten me. I was always under the impression that recording somebody without their consent was illegal, or at least 'inadmissable' in court.

[LeighLoyal]

Mibbae you legal peeps can enlighten me. I was always under the impression that recording somebody without their consent was illegal, or at least 'inadmissable' in court.



No chance there. Nobody would be allowed a wire tap or undercover surveillance in that case.

[s.a.m]

Mibbae you legal peeps can enlighten me. I was always under the impression that recording somebody without their consent was illegal, or at least 'inadmissable' in court.

I was wondering about that myself....

[sadtom]

No chance there. Nobody would be allowed a wire tap or undercover surveillance in that case.

Don't the cops need to apply for legal permission to do so?

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure you can be sure of that though when this is the same discredited mob who denied knowledge of the Ticketus deal and are sewing Whyte's solicitors on oldcorpse's behalf. Whyte did state he was secured on the Ticketus deal. D&P just wanted to run up a big fee and get their own bag of loot. Whyte seems to think he has money due anyway.


Are you implying that there was a stich up somewhere? :na na:

[Caversham Green]

CW gave Ticketus a personal guarantee, but that's not relevant to his security over RFC.

I suppose it's possible that Rangers (RIH) provided an indemnity over CW's personal liability in relation to the Ticketus money and that makes him think he has a claim under the security. Given his role in the whole affair I doubt it would be enforceable, but he may think it is.

BTW, I thought the security was a floating charge. If so that means it was over all the assets of the company, not just Ibrox and Murray Park.

[Caversham Green]

Mibbae you legal peeps can enlighten me. I was always under the impression that recording somebody without their consent was illegal, or at least 'inadmissable' in court.

It is inadmissible in court - i.e. it can't be used as evidence, but I don't think it's actually illegal - journalists have recorded and broadcast many undercover recordings and not been charged with anything. Remember Bruce Grobelaar talking about match fixing?

[CropleyWasGod]

I suppose it's possible that Rangers (RIH) provided an indemnity over CW's personal liability in relation to the Ticketus money and that makes him think he has a claim under the security. Given his role in the whole affair I doubt it would be enforceable, but he may think it is.

BTW, I thought the security was a floating charge. If so that means it was over all the assets of the company, not just Ibrox and Murray Park.

Presumably, though, his claim was adjudicated by D&P and rejected.

And I think it was a floating charge too.

[The Green Goblin]

It is inadmissible in court - i.e. it can't be used as evidence, but I don't think it's actually illegal - journalists have recorded and broadcast many undercover recordings and not been charged with anything. Remember Bruce Grobelaar talking about match fixing?

Legal or not, once the cat is out of the bag, I would have thought it can still negatively affect the person concerned in the future.

[The Green Goblin]

He gave them personal gaurantees.

Anyway, Channel 4 (Alex Thomson) are running a segment on hun intimidation on their news tomorrow.

Good! Because our mob certainly dont have the guts or desire to do it, do they? They are too busy intalling cameras and microphones in all the 3rd division grounds and loving them up. What an embarrassment they are....

Thanks for the heads up. I will catch the piece via the Channel 4 News app.

[Caversham Green]

Legal or not, once the cat is out of the bag, I would have thought it can still negatively affect the person concerned in the future.

Indeed. That's why barristers will often say something inadmissible in court and the judge directs the jury to disregard that remark - do they? Do they f***.

[LeighLoyal]

Don't the cops need to apply for legal permission to do so?


The Sheridan tape was hardly inadmissable was it. It got him charged with perjury.

[sadtom]

It is inadmissible in court - i.e. it can't be used as evidence, but I don't think it's actually illegal - journalists have recorded and broadcast many undercover recordings and not been charged with anything. Remember Bruce Grobelaar talking about match fixing?

Cheers.
Would this mean that other than it becoming public knowledge, there will be no legal 'come back' on D&P?

[Caversham Green]

Cheers.
Would this mean that other than it becoming public knowledge, there will be no legal 'come back' on D&P?

I think the tape itself is inadmissible i.e. it couldn't be played, but the conversation could be be discussed and because the contents have now become public knowledge D&P would look pretty foolish if they tried to deny it took place or dispute what was said. They could claim the tape was a mock-up and the BBC was 'duped' by CW, but the BBC claim to have used a voice recognition expert so I think they'd be on a sticky wicket.