Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[sadtom]

I think the tape itself is inadmissible i.e. it couldn't be played, but the conversation could be be discussed and because the contents have now become public knowledge D&P would look pretty foolish if they tried to deny it took place or dispute what was said. They could claim the tape was a mock-up and the BBC was 'duped' by CW, but the BBC claim to have used a voice recognition expert so I think they'd be on a sticky wicket.

Cheers again. Thats pretty much what i though the situ would be.

[sadtom]

The Sheridan tape was hardly inadmissable was it. It got him charged with perjury.

It wasn't the tape that got him charged with perjury. It was lying in court that did that. :wink:

I may be wrong but i'm not sure that the jury even heard the tape in court, i cant remember. In fact, IIRC, they were unable to prove that it was TS on the tape. That would mean it was even less likely to have been used as evidence in a perjury trial.
To be honest, i know a couple of people on the 'pro' and 'anti' TS side within the SSP and had heard the truth within days of the actual SSP meeting, long before the trial. As such i didn't pay as much attention to the actual court details.
However like yourself, i do seem to think i have heard of trials where illicit recordings had been made of people, which had been used as evidence in court. So i'm still unclear what the legal position is. I'm sure there is something regarding using subterfuge to record people, but dont know what.

[LeighLoyal]

It wasn't the tape that got him charged with perjury. It was lying in court that did that. :wink:

I may be wrong but i'm not sure that the jury even heard the tape in court, i cant remember. In fact, IIRC, they were unable to prove that it was TS on the tape. That would mean it was even less likely to have been used as evidence in a perjury trial.
To be honest, i know a couple of people on the 'pro' and 'anti' TS side within the SSP and had heard the truth within days of the actual SSP meeting, long before the trial. As such i didn't pay as much attention to the actual court details.
However like yourself, i do seem to think i have heard of trials where illicit recordings had been made of people, which had been used as evidence in court. So i'm still unclear what the legal position is. I'm sure there is something regarding using subterfuge to record people, but dont know what.



This is a similar debate to whether Whyte can be pursued by Ticketus, I suspect he can be. Comrade Tommy, I think the tape surfacing after his initial court win (the Gretna vs Real Madrid fiasco :greengrin) was key in forcing the perjury charges. If it was wholly inadmissable he wouldn't have made such a big fuss claiming the CIA and Murdoch had hired Rory Bremner and John Culshaw. :faf:

[green glory]

https://twitter.com/markdaly2/status/261495766491754496

More goodies tonight.

[grunt]

https://twitter.com/markdaly2/status/261495766491754496

More goodies tonight.Can someone please post tonight's news on here for those of us away from BBC Scotland? Thanks

[Mon Dieu4]

Can someone please post tonight's news on here for those of us away from BBC Scotland? Thanks

D and P are recorded telling Whyte to lie and say they where not aware of the ticketus deal as if HMRC found out they would remove them

there are also emails telling him the same

[LeighLoyal]

Zombies seem to think BDO cannot unwind this dodgy Sevco deal but surely it has to be done now.

[Jack Hackett]

D and P are recorded telling Whyte to lie and say they where not aware of the ticketus deal as if HMRC found out they would remove them

there are also emails telling him the same

Looks like Craig has been covering his derriere since Day 1. Charlie must be ordering his toilet paper from a wholesaler :greengrin

[greenginger]

Presumably, though, his claim was adjudicated by D&P and rejected.

And I think it was a floating charge too.


What value could be put on any of the Duffers adjudications now ? :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

What value could be put on any of the Duffers adjudications now ? :greengrin

£5.5 m? :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Is it possible that bdo could say the sale of oldco rangers assets was unlawful and seize them back and if so how likely is this to happen

[CropleyWasGod]

Is it possible that bdo could say the sale of oldco rangers assets was unlawful and seize them back and if so how likely is this to happen

Not so much that it was unlawful, but they do have the power to force D&P to justify the deal.

If BDO aren't satisfied with that, they can have the sale reversed.... which is complicated and expensive..... or they can sue the Newco for the "fair value".

However, if they think that there has been collusion (ie with intent to defraud the creditors), that would be a police matter.

[s.a.m]

So.....for those of you who understand how the various regulatory players involved here work (like liquidators, HMRC, polis etc...): are the revelations of the last two nights likely to come under consideration, or can they be brushed under the carpet?




Edit: you may just have answered that for me!:greengrin Although I'm wondering about the likelihood of investigation.?

[ballengeich]

Not so much that it was unlawful, but they do have the power to force D&P to justify the deal.

If BDO aren't satisfied with that, they can have the sale reversed.... which is complicated and expensive..... or they can sue the Newco for the "fair value".

However, if they think that there has been collusion (ie with intent to defraud the creditors), that would be a police matter.

As BDO would have no chance of getting "fair value" out of Newco or a sale reversal, could they sue D&P? They'd surely have more chance of recovering something for the creditors that way.

If D&P have sold too cheaply, why should the purchaser suffer if there's been no collusion? If all Green and his group have done is spot a bargain, it seems unjust that they should have to cough up more money later simply because the seller undervalued an asset.

[ancient hibee]

I have a feeling that administrators are appointed as individuals and not as representatives of the firm.If so this will be the defence-that the two administrators knew nothing about Ticketus.

[CropleyWasGod]

As BDO would have no chance of getting "fair value" out of Newco or a sale reversal, could they sue D&P? They'd surely have more chance of recovering something for the creditors that way.

If D&P have sold too cheaply, why should the purchaser suffer if there's been no collusion? If all Green and his group have done is spot a bargain, it seems unjust that they should have to cough up more money later simply because the seller undervalued an asset.


In my view, something is worth what somebody is prepared to pay for it. That will be D and P's defence, of course.... but then the extendable noses of the Green empire told us last week that the assets were worth £80m. :greengrin

You're right, though..... D&P had better make sure that their Professional Indemnity Insurance is up to scratch, in case BDO go that way.

[green glory]

In my view, something is worth what somebody is prepared to pay for it. That will be D and P's defence, of course.... but then the extendable noses of the Green empire told us last week that the assets were worth £80m. :greengrin

You're right, though..... D&P had better make sure that their Professional Indemnity Insurance is up to scratch, in case BDO go that way.

Is it not the case there were offers higher than Greeny's at the time?

[shagpile]

Is it not the case there were offers higher than Greeny's at the time?

The answer to that question is most probably found between pages 1 & 706 of this thread!
Which is why i will not be trawling for it, but did not the Blue Knights have an offer of around the same as Greens? Kennedys offer tooIIRC? The Blue Knights & Kennedy together?
The Millar offer was double that of Greens , but i think he saw sense before it was too late & he seemed too honest for der hun anyway.[Maybe i should say he was not on the same corruption level as the rest:rolleyes:]

[StevieC]

i will not be trawling for it, but did not the Blue Knights have an offer of around the same as Greens? Kennedys offer tooIIRC? The Blue Knights & Kennedy together?


IIRC the Blue Nights (or whatever consortium was on the go at the time) were proposing £8m after the CVA failed, but by that time D&P were stating that they were tied into the Green proposal.

To be fair, the £8m offer was verbal (via the papers) so it could have been taken with a pinch of salt.

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4609931/EBTs-ended-by-buyout-claims-Whyte.html


CRAIG Whyte claims Rangers were STILL using the controversial EBT scheme when he came on the scene last year.


i hope that **** murray ends up in jail :agree: hopefully he hasn't got a leg to stand on and they can whip that stupid knighthood off him to start with, and hopefully that sniveling little creepy crook whyte ends up in the adjoining cell

[sadtom]

IIRC the Blue Nights (or whatever consortium was on the go at the time) were proposing £8m after the CVA failed, but by that time D&P were stating that they were tied into the Green proposal.

To be fair, the £8m offer was verbal (via the papers) so it could have been taken with a pinch of salt.

That kinda rings a bell but i thought it was even dodgier.
Were they not looking for bids to take them on as a going concern which didnt see too many bidders. Only when they announced that the club was to be liquidated did more potential buyers start to show interest but D&P claimed that a deal had already been struck with best bid to that point.
It was almost as if they stopped the bidding as soon as potential interest started to increase when in effect it became a fire sale.

[Haymaker]

Catching up on the last few days worth of news has defo put a smile on my face! I hope this is the start of the end... Again! :greengrin

[Part/Time Supporter]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4609931/EBTs-ended-by-buyout-claims-Whyte.html


CRAIG Whyte claims Rangers were STILL using the controversial EBT scheme when he came on the scene last year.


i hope that **** murray ends up in jail :agree: hopefully he hasn't got a leg to stand on and they can whip that stupid knighthood off him to start with, and hopefully that sniveling little creepy crook whyte ends up in the adjoining cell

Unfortunate choice of phrase...

:wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

Unfortunate choice of phrase...

:wink:


well spotted :greengrin

[down-the-slope]

just when you think there is little more to wring out of this story you find another chapter.....:greengrin

what I want next is the tape of Whyte & Green

Whyte - whats the plan Chuckie

Chuckie - you sell shares to me and i'll get the monkey of your back

Whyte - whats in it for me, not losing my wedge

Chuckie - keep yer heid down for a few months and you will get your wedge & more

Whyte - hows that going to happen

Chuckie - we will buy the scraps for a pittance, polish the turd with some help from our friends at the SFA / SPL...when the hordes of gullible eejits lap it up we will sell it to them...and hey presto...big bucks that we can split..

Whyte - genius...its yours for a quid.

Chuckie - tell you what i'm no crook...i'll give you double that

[Kaiser1962]

Alex Thomson's blog about tonights news

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/piercing-wall-silence-surrounding-rangers-fans/2891

[johnbc70]

Alex Thomson's blog about tonights news

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/piercing-wall-silence-surrounding-rangers-fans/2891

I wonder why this is not being reported by the mainstream Scottish media. I still think the McCoist "I want to know who these people are' rant has been brushed under the carpet. I wonder if he really cares what his comments did to this man and his family? How would he feel if it was his family. No Scottish journalist seems to follow it up.

[LeighLoyal]

I wonder why this is not being reported by the mainstream Scottish media. I still think the McCoist "I want to know who these people are' rant has been brushed under the carpet. I wonder if he really cares what his comments did to this man and his family? How would he feel if it was his family. No Scottish journalist seems to follow it up.


It takes someone like Thompson outside the pro Sevco Glasgow media up here to tell the truth - the same truth that hun hacks claim Zombies want to hear! :confused: It does show the hypsocrisy of them in full, the way they put the boot into Romanov but were silent on Whyte, except to claim he was a billionaire, until the English press published the Ticketus funding facts, and then let Sally and Green off lightly with outrageous and inflammatory outbursts while failing to look into D&P. They even published the full names of the panel after the malicious Sally demand, furthering them to more threats of hun thuggery. These poodles are a disgrace to their profession.

[johnrebus]

It takes someone like Thompson outside the pro Sevco Glasgow media up here to tell the truth - the same truth that hun hacks claim Zombies want to hear! :confused: It does show the hypsocrisy of them in full, the way they put the boot into Romanov but were silent on Whyte, except to claim he was a billionaire, until the English press published the Ticketus funding facts, and then let Sally and Green off lightly with outrageous and inflammatory outbursts while failing to look into D&P. They even published the full names of the panel after the malicious Sally demand, furthering them to more threats of hun thuggery. These poodles are a disgrace to their profession.


I think, as will become apparent tonight on C4, that a good few of these Journos are not in the Hun camp, but are too **** scared to write about the truth.........,

[Caversham Green]

It seems Sevco were after the add-on for the sale of Charlie Adam - Green reckons they bought the right to it along with all the other stuff for £5.5m

A bit of detail about gratuitous alienation in there as well.

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/10/26/succulent-lamb-still-alive-and-well-green-wont-leave-rangers-till-they-reach-champions-league/

[poolman]

It seems Sevco were after the add-on for the sale of Charlie Adam - Green reckons they bought the right to it along with all the other stuff for £5.5m

A bit of detail about gratuitous alienation in there as well.

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/10/26/succulent-lamb-still-alive-and-well-green-wont-leave-rangers-till-they-reach-champions-league/


I'd love to see a televised dabate on the Huns debacle between Paul McConville and that fat twat Traynor :agree:

[jonty]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/10/26/silvio-berlusconi-sentenced-to-four-years-in-prison_n_2023142.html?1351260933

Berlusconi is sentenced to 4 years for tax evasion......

[s.a.m]

I'd love to see a televised dabate on the Huns debacle between Paul McConville and that fat twat Traynor :agree:

Not quite what you had in mind, but:
Brian Ferguson‏@brianjaffa One for #oldfirm (http://www.hibs.net/search?q=%23oldfirm&src=hash) fans: @alextomo (http://www.hibs.net/alextomo) & @markdaly2 (http://www.hibs.net/markdaly2) will be discussing media coverage of the #Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/search?q=%23Rangers&src=hash) story at @edinburghnapier (http://www.hibs.net/EdinburghNapier) on 19 Nov

[green glory]

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/

One for Cav and CWG?

[jonty]

So, what do our resident accountants etc make of this?

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/


I have a Heads of Terms document for the sale and leaseback of Ibrox, Murray Park and the Albion Car Park.

The purchase price for all three assets is £7.285m. In addition to this there is a £6.55m loan provision with 15% interest payable monthly (£985.5k annually). Initial rent for all three properties is £1.8m. The 20-year lease provides for upwards-only reviews every five years by either 2% p.a. or RPI, whatever is greater (so assuming RPI is less than 2% each year, after five years, rent would be £1.987m).

Annual costs for rent and interest would be £2.785m. Current season ticket sales are reported to be approximately 36,000 with a standard adult price of £286, income net of vat will be around £8.5m.

Although the top line figure for both sale and loan is £13.835, “the initial payment will be less 3 years rent [£5.4m] to compensate for the lack of guarantee covering the rental payments”, so monies paid would be £8.435m as the first three years rent is deducted from the total.

Crucially, rent is to be securitised against ticket receipts and the new landlord is to be granted “first charge on the season tickets”, so, just as Craig Whyte planned with Rangers, Sports Direct FC would collect ticket money before passing it on to the security holder.

If the buyer attains planning permission for residential properties at Murray Park, a provision releases the seller from having to repay the £6.55m loan and cancels future interest payments. This speculative clause would release the club from punitive interest repayments but would require them to find a reasonably priced ash park to train on. Perhaps the Albion Car and Training Park.

“The tenant” will be able to buyback the stadium. In year one the price would be £10m (they would still owe the £6.55m loan). The set price increases by 12% p.a. for 10 years, so the year-10 price would be £27.7m. Thereafter “price will revert to Market Value but will not be less than £20m”. The market value of Celtic Park is around £50m. There is no buyback provision for Murray Park or the Albion Car Park.

The deal is on the table but will not be signed before the share issue, or if “the tenant” wins the Euromillions Jackpot (that’s not a euphemism for Champions League money, I mean the actual lottery), or finds some magic beans.

[ballengeich]

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/

One for Cav and CWG?

If true, I'd find it one of the less unexpected events in the whole saga. When Green's group took over I suspected they'd try to make their money by owning the property and renting it to the football club and that the multi-company Sevco structure was in part to facilitate this. I think he did something similar at Sheffield United.

There are rumours that Ibrox needs a lot of expensive work done. If that's true, will the rent be enough to maintain the structure in a usable condition?

[Ozyhibby]

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/

Sale and rent back. Ha ha.

[Ozyhibby]

If true, I'd find it one of the less unexpected events in the whole saga. When Green's group took over I suspected they'd try to make their money by owning the property and renting it to the football club and that the multi-company Sevco structure was in part to facilitate this. I think he did something similar at Sheffield United.

There are rumours that Ibrox needs a lot of expensive work done. If that's true, will the rent be enough to maintain the structure in a usable condition?

In commercial deals the tenant is responsible for maintenance.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Looks like Green et al covering their backside in case the share issue doesn't fly.

[greenginger]

If true, I'd find it one of the less unexpected events in the whole saga. When Green's group took over I suspected they'd try to make their money by owning the property and renting it to the football club and that the multi-company Sevco structure was in part to facilitate this. I think he did something similar at Sheffield United.

There are rumours that Ibrox needs a lot of expensive work done. If that's true, will the rent be enough to maintain the structure in a usable condition?

I am sure it will be a full insuring and REPAIRING lease. :greengrin

[ballengeich]

In commercial deals the tenant is responsible for maintenance.

Thanks. That should cripple them nicely.

[RyeSloan]

I wonder why this is not being reported by the mainstream Scottish media. I still think the McCoist "I want to know who these people are' rant has been brushed under the carpet. I wonder if he really cares what his comments did to this man and his family? How would he feel if it was his family. No Scottish journalist seems to follow it up.

Was a disgusting action from Mccoist and so was the pathetic response from the SFA and the Scottish media. The man clearly put others lifes at risk through a pre determined action, sadly he was happy to take that action safe in the knowledge his position would ensure he faced little retribution for it.

Still it didn't pass everyone's attention and you safely say that one action showed the cheeky chappy to be a cretinous little man that he is....

[RyeSloan]

Looks like Green et al covering their backside in case the share issue doesn't fly.

Am I the only one that read this a spoof :confused:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I think, as will become apparent tonight on C4, that a good few of these Journos are not in the Hun camp, but are too **** scared to write about the truth.........,

What programme will this be on? Is it the C4 News?

[CropleyWasGod]

Am I the only one that read this a spoof :confused:

Was my first thought, but I think it's a mixture of facts and the writer's comments.

[SurferRosa]

What programme will this be on? Is it the C4 News?

:agree: it is.

[ancient hibee]

It's obviously a joke.

[green glory]

It's obviously a joke.

I don't know. This is being passed about by some of the people who have been leading lights in the whole Hun fiasco.

If it's true it means Bomber Brown was right.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Nae mention of Sally demanding to know who the 3 guys on the panel were, thought that would be at the forefront of the report.

[Pinkie]

Was a disgusting action from Mccoist and so was the pathetic response from the SFA and the Scottish media. The man clearly put others lifes at risk through a pre determined action, sadly he was happy to take that action safe in the knowledge his position would ensure he faced little retribution for it.

Still it didn't pass everyone's attention and you safely say that one action showed the cheeky chappy to be a cretinous little man that he is....

Yip. Couldn't agree more. This wasn't an off-the-cuff remark as he was climbing into his car, or a post-match interview when the adrenaline was running. This was a pre-recorded interview released via the Rangers website. I note in Alex Thomson's blog that the QC gives McCoist some benefit of the doubt, suggesting that McCoist was perhaps unaware that plenty people at Sevco knew exactly who the panel members were. If the QC's remarks are to be taken at face value, he's being pretty magnanimous. Even if that is what actually happened, somebody at Rangers should have been smart enough to realise that McCoist was a bit out of the loop, and stopped the broadcast going out.

For my part, I don't think there was any misunderstanding or miscalculation. I think this was a deliberate and premeditated action from Rangers, done in full knowledge of the likely repercussions. Misinformation and intimidation; two of the standard tools in use by this disgusting organisation, whether oldco or newco.

[SJNB Hibby]

http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?p=18401055&posted=1#post18401055

Been on FollowFollow for the last few months(I lasted 6 months with an email address of Hibs4evr if you can believe it)
Couldnt take it any longer, had to come out of the closet

[Jack Hackett]

http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?p=18401055&posted=1#post18401055

Been on FollowFollow for the last few months(I lasted 6 months with an email address of Hibs4evr if you can believe it)
Couldnt take it any longer, had to come out of the closet


They've locked the front door. :greengrin

[Part/Time Supporter]

Am I the only one that read this a spoof :confused:


Was my first thought, but I think it's a mixture of facts and the writer's comments.


It's obviously a joke.

Yer man at CQN doesn't do humour.

[theleith hibby]

sorry but why do thuns think there first win away in the 3RD div should be a reason to celebrate , they are even on facebook

[Hibercelona]

Games like that are massive for them now. :greengrin

[Jonnyboy]

Games like that are massive for them now. :greengrin

Exactly. Overcoming the mighty ten man Clyde outfit was mega impressive :agree:

[Hibercelona]

Exactly. Overcoming the mighty ten man Clyde outfit was mega impressive :agree:

Stanley knives and buckie bottles in full force in the centre of Glasgow city tonight.

[Ozyhibby]

This thread almost seems like old hat now that we have a Hearts one as well.

[Eyrie]

The Hearts thread is 666 pages and one liquidation behind this one.

But there's plenty of time .... :thumbsup:

[Baldy Foghorn]

The Hearts thread is 666 pages and one liquidation behind this one.

But there's plenty of time .... :thumbsup:

676 pages, pedant alert:greengrin

[jonty]

676 pages, pedant alert:greengrin
Yamamathics :agree:

[Jack Hackett]

676 pages, pedant alert:greengrin

I preferred 666. A more fitting number considering the subjects :greengrin

[hibs0666]

I preferred 666. A more fitting number considering the subjects :greengrin

You called? :wink:

[Jack Hackett]

You called? :wink:

Not yet mate. I've still got a few good years in me....besides, the deal was after we won the Scottish Cup :devil:

[Eyrie]

676 pages, pedant alert:greengrin
Bleep! Good spot.


Yamamathics :agree:
Low blow!


I preferred 666. A more fitting number considering the subjects :greengrin
:D

[s.a.m]

Not yet mate. I've still got a few good years in me....besides, the deal was after we won the Scottish Cup :devil:

:greengrin

[jonty]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11788/8204811/Charles-Green-has-ruled-out-Rangers-returning-to-the-Scottish-Premier-League-while-he-is-at-the-club

So - when is he leaving? just after the share issues and he's collected his loot? :greengrin

[Vini1875]

This clown just makes the noises that the huns want to hear. It is easy to say at this moment, but I'd be delighted to hear it if they gain promotion from Div. 1.

The huns are just sick that the rest of the SPL has just got on without them. If they don't come back they won't be missed, not by me anyway.

[J-C]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11788/8204811/Charles-Green-has-ruled-out-Rangers-returning-to-the-Scottish-Premier-League-while-he-is-at-the-club

So - when is he leaving? just after the share issues and he's collected his loot? :greengrin

So he's basically in the huff and doesn't want Rangers to be part of a league which threw them out for breaking the rules.

Does that mean when they get their promotion to the SPL eventually, they're going to knock it back and stay in the SFL Div 1, or will the promise of more money and European football be to big to turn down. This man is making a mockery of himself and Rangers, they seem to attract the weird and wonderful to their boards and they're welcome to each other, quicker this half of the old firm disappeared without trace, the better for the whole of Scottish football.

[hibsmad]

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11788/8204811/Charles-Green-has-ruled-out-Rangers-returning-to-the-Scottish-Premier-League-while-he-is-at-the-club

So - when is he leaving? just after the share issues and he's collected his loot? :greengrin

Well all I can say is that I hope Green is around for a long long time.

[VickMackie]

Well all I can say is that I hope Green is around for a long long time.

It's great that he's said the assets he paid 1.5 million are worth 80 million.

Biggest stitch up ever.

[MrSmith]

Stupidity at its best!

I will reiterate 100's of posts past: Newco where not thrown out, they became Sevco666 or something and, like any other new team; had to start off in the third division. He was even lucky enough to be granted a license!

Clown!

[PatHead]

It's great that he's said the assets he paid 1.5 million are worth 80 million.

Biggest stitch up ever.

Pretty sure he didn't pay anything according to recent papers. He will get 10% of shares raised at a share issue though

[LeighLoyal]

Pretty sure he didn't pay anything according to recent papers. He will get 10% of shares raised at a share issue though



Guaranteed the share issue is going to cover the joke £5.5m that the disgraced D&P 'sold' the oldcorpse assets for. According to them the huns were worth £2m less less than the combined fees Hibs got for Scott Brown and Steve Fletcher. Time for BDO to step in and wipe that cheshire cat grin from Green's drivel hole.

[green glory]

There's a statement on the official Sevco site about the big tax case. Pre-emptive for the result being VERY VERY imminent methinks.

[green glory]

There's a statement on the official Sevco site about the big tax case. Pre-emptive for the result being VERY VERY imminent methinks.

I'll reiterate a week past Friday, Rangerstaxcase were reporting the result was with MIH and Hector with a max 2 weeks before the verdict was made public.

What's that coming over the hill?
Can't be sure yet but it might be a bowler hat.

[Newry Hibs]

I'll reiterate a week past Friday, Rangerstaxcase were reporting the result was with MIH and Hector with a max 2 weeks before the verdict was made public.

What's that coming over the hill?
Can't be sure yet but it might be a bowler hat.

To be fair, that could either be Hector or a lot of orange clad supporters from over here in NI.

[green glory]

To be fair, that could either be Hector or a lot of orange clad supporters from over here in NI.

Can't hear any flutes.

[Newry Hibs]

Can't hear any flutes.

:agree:

[PatHead]

Someone told me BDO are meeting Lord Hodge tomorrow re their initial findings on the Petition. Wonder if they will indicate it appears there have been dodgy dealings and the club may have been sold at undervalue?

Anyone else heard about this?

[CropleyWasGod]

Someone told me BDO are meeting Lord Hodge tomorrow re their initial findings on the Petition. Wonder if they will indicate it appears there have been dodgy dealings and the club may have been sold at undervalue?

Anyone else heard about this?

I hae ma doots. I don't think that they have been appointed yet.

[PatHead]

I hae ma doots. I don't think that they have been appointed yet.

Darn! Any idea when this could happen or is there still a lot of shredding being done?

[green glory]

Someone told me BDO are meeting Lord Hodge tomorrow re their initial findings on the Petition. Wonder if they will indicate it appears there have been dodgy dealings and the club may have been sold at undervalue?

Anyone else heard about this?

https://twitter.com/tonymckelvie/status/263290573287456769

D+P meeting Lord Hodge tomorrow.

[poolman]

Can't hear any flutes.


:greengrin


http://i45.tinypic.com/149wpqe.jpg

[CropleyWasGod]

https://twitter.com/tonymckelvie/status/263290573287456769

D+P meeting Lord Hodge tomorrow.

That would be more likely.

[green glory]

That would be more likely.

https://twitter.com/bbcdouglsfraser/status/263570051599327232

https://twitter.com/carasulieman/status/263583183075954688

[LeighLoyal]

https://twitter.com/tonymckelvie/status/263290573287456769

D+P meeting Lord Hodge tomorrow.




I don't think there is any doubt oldco was undervalued. Question is will BDO have the bottle to act and see financial justice is done.

[green glory]

@Paulmcc12: Collyer Bristow - lawyers for oldco #rangers oppose administration ending

[jonty]

@Jonokeydokey: #rangerstaxcase @Paulmcc12 #rangers Craig Whyte speaking at CoS liquidation hearing. reported as saying "Trick or Treat"!

[green glory]

@carasulieman: Right. Duff & Phelps are applying to end administration and hand over to BDO for liquidation.

@carasulieman: The "estate" handed over would include £1.7bn in cash plus "other assets". #Rangers

[green glory]

@carasulieman: However, Collyer Bristow, one of the creditors, are opposing the petition.

@carasulieman: It's technically two petitions - one to end administration and another to appoint liquidators. Lord Hodge being asked to consider both.

[green glory]

@carasulieman: D&P say the main purpose of the administration - "to maintain the company as a going concern" - was not achieved. #Rangers

@carasulieman: But they maintain they achieved another "minor objective" of "getting a better return". #Rangers

[green glory]

@carasulieman: We haven't heard from Collyer Bristow yet so not heard detail of their objection. #Rangers

@carasulieman: D&P told Lord Hodge Collyer Bristow did not vote on latest round of resolutions, which included today's action.

[green glory]

@Paulmcc12: Oldco #Rangers Liquidation Petition Heading for Extra Time? http://t.co/bbIHEOpO

Oldco #Rangers Liquidation Petition Heading for Extra Time?


Some info regarding the progress of the Rangers liquidation hearing before Lord Hodge today.

As with everything in this saga, it is not straightforward.

Three of the issues so far –

Collyer Bristow, lawyers for oldco under Craig Whyte and also defendants in court actions raised for millions of pounds by Duff & Phelps as administrators, have opposed the ending of administration. Tactically this may be designed to help them with the court actions, but the grounds for objecting are not yet clear.

Lord Hodge has asked for a transcript of the Craig Whyte tape, as heard on the BBC recently. It appears that it might be necessary for a court order to be granted before the transcript would be handed over.

There is a challenge to Duff & Phelps’ claimed remuneration of in excess of £3 million.

If Lord Hodge needs the transcript to finalise administration, then there will be a delay. Whether or not his Lordship was satisfied by the earlier report given to the court by D&P, the alleged conversation between Mr Grier and Mr Whyte clearly has raised concerns in the judge’s mind, as is understandable.

D&P, as their response to the BBC, said they did not comment on matters taken out of context. The whole transcript would put matters very much into context.

Hopefully that would not show up any inconsistencies with the report already lodged with the court!

The matter is adjourned for lunch.

Posted by Paul McConville

[green glory]

@carasulieman: Lord Hodge also mentioned he is "very concerned" about recent allegations & has asked BBC for DVD and transcript. #Rangers

Oh dear.

[grunt]

@carasulieman: The "estate" handed over would include £1.7bn in cash plus "other assets". #RangersNow that would be newsworthy!

[green glory]

Now that would be newsworthy!

I had a wee word with her. Quickly corrected lol.

[green glory]

@Paulmcc12: Not a Live Blog of the Oldco #Rangers Liquidation Hearing http://t.co/BmazJ4yP

Not a Live Blog of the Oldco #Rangers Liquidation Hearing
Some additional thoughts arising from the reports so far from this morning’s case at the Court of Session before Lord Hodge.

As long as no one wonders about the sound of the laptop coming from the cupboard in the courtroom, I hope to keep the updates going this afternoon. I would ask any of the counsel appearing in the case to ensure they speak up, as the cupboard door makes it difficult sometimes to hear.

Counsel for Duff + Phelps told the court that there were £1.7 million of cash and “other assets” to be handed over by the administrators to the liquidators.

Bearing in mind that Sevco paid £5.5 million for all of the assets, how is the balance so reduced?

One reason – Duff & Phelps fees are in excess of £1 million and the costs incurred by them for various matters, but especially legal expenses regarding the English court actions against Collyer Bristow are over £1 million.

And of course, should the there liquidators not recover any more money, they will be paid out of the £1.7 million. The creditors will do well to see a penny, it appears.

However the costs sought by Duff & Phelps are being challenged in this hearing, and they are required to justify their position regarding them to the court.

What “other assets” are there?

This would seem to comprise the various claims ongoing, such as the cases against Collyer Bristow, Prichard Stockbrokers re the Arsenal Shares and potentially Mr Betts, although the last one seems to have dropped off D&P’s radar, at least from the reports they have produced. In addition, D&P were looking at one stage at pursuing return of the £250,000 paid, supposedly, to Banstead Athletic, the English non-league team with whom Aidan Earley is alleged to be connected, Mr Earley being a long time associate of Mr Whyte’s.

Other than that, it is hard to see what other assets there might be, as Sevco bought “the whole assets” of Rangers.

Collyer Bristow are objecting to the end of administration. I wondered what locus they had to argue this but, on checking the creditors list in the April proposal by D+P, Collyer Bristow is listed as a creditor to the sum of just over £40,000. As a creditor it can participate in the court proceedings regarding the administration process. However, as counsel for Collyer Bristow has not yet addressed the court, the precise terms of their objection are not clear.

It was indicated that, whilst Lord Hodge wanted to see the transcript of the BBC tape of Mr Whyte’s conversation with Mr Grier, this was not “relevant” to the issue before the court today.

This could well be recognition that, as the assets have been sold, there is no reason for the liquidators not to be in place now, but that would not preclude action against Duff & Phelps should the courts or regulatory authorities determine that rules have been broken.

It strikes me that lengthy hearings of evidence might be needed to determine if D&P have erred or not, and it would be prejudicial to the creditors to tie the issue up together.

I suspect that Duff & Phelps, even if administration ends today, will not have seen the last of Lord Hodge’s courtroom!

Posted by Paul McConville (desperate to sneak out of the cupboard to stretch his legs)

[green glory]

More to read sorry lol.


@Paulmcc12: The Tweeted Report by @mdkster on This Morning's #Rangers Hearing http://t.co/xfKBu8Hv

The Tweeted Report by @mdkster on This Morning’s #Rangers Hearing
I’m not in the CoS afternoon I’m afraid. It seems that Collyer Bristow are challenging D&P’s application to end the admin and appoint BDO.

CB’s lawyer hasn’t spoken yet, but it seems that they want nothing further to happen on the admin until the ‘MCR’ issue has been clarified.

Ticketus emailed D&P that, “for entirely commercial reasons”, they don’t currently intend to challenge D&P’s decision to reject their claim>

<but Ticketus reserve all rights (e.g. to press their claim against the liquidators). Ticketus voted against D&P fees, but vote was ignored.

D&P&rsquo;s lawyer argued that, if no creditor challenges (and none has so far), the Court has no power to interfere with accounts or their fees.

HMRC proposed amendments to the resolutions at the last creditors&rsquo; meeting, which &ldquo;slightly reduced&rdquo; D&P&rsquo;s fees, and they&rsquo;ve been accepted

HMRC claim was accepted in full (£94m) for voting purposes because the tax assessments are effectively unless & until FTT decides otherwise.

The FTT proceedings ended in January. D&P&rsquo;s lawyer told Lord Hodge that they do not know when the FTT decision will be issued.

D&P provided a report on the &lsquo;conflict&rsquo; allegations to the Court and the IPA. There&rsquo;s no update on the IPA investigation. LH asked whether>

<the IPA had been alerted to the subsequent allegations made by the BBC (i.e. the CW tape). LH has asked the BBC for DVDs of the May & Oct>

<broadcasts and for a transcript of the conversation. The BBC has &ldquo;not volunteered&rdquo; a transcript & LH may need to take steps to compel this.

LH is &ldquo;very concerned&rdquo; by the allegations, which call into question the probity of the proceedings. D&P are officers of the Court, and so>

<the Court has an interest in ensuring that the allegations are properly aired. LH said that the comments may have been taken out of context

LH will hold a hearing at which the BBC can make representations before making any Court Order for the production of the transcript/evidence

LH was cross that D&P had not given him any documents until this morning, and contained errors. D&P&rsquo;s lawyer (Wolff QC) seemed ill-prepared.

I expect that the hearing will last all day (LH is busy the rest of the week). Suspect that D&P&rsquo;s petition will not be granted today but >

< difficult to predict given that CB&rsquo;s lawyer had not spoken yet. LH was being very thorough in that all matters are dealt with properly.

[Hibee87]

so whats the current situation in leymans terms? im finding it hard to follow the tweet updates

[CropleyWasGod]

so whats the current situation in leymans terms? im finding it hard to follow the tweet updates

Lord Hodge seems reluctant to finish the administration. Collyer Bristow seem to be unwilling to let it go either.

My guess is that a decision will be deferred for the moment. Which delay will cost money, which will restrict the amount of cash available to BDO, or the creditors.

It's not ideal, but I can understand LH's position.

[Hibee87]

Lord Hodge seems reluctant to finish the administration. Collyer Bristow seem to be unwilling to let it go either.

My guess is that a decision will be deferred for the moment. Which delay will cost money, which will restrict the amount of cash available to BDO, or the creditors.

It's not ideal, but I can understand LH's position.

cheers :aok:

[jonty]

officially now in liquidation.

[green glory]

@carasulieman: Lord Hodge granted the petitions and oldco #Rangers are now in liquidation.

Deadhun.

[CropleyWasGod]

cheers :aok:

Ignore my wise words. :greengrin

[LeighLoyal]

@carasulieman: Lord Hodge granted the petitions and oldco #Rangers are now in liquidation.

Deadhun.



RIP Rangers FC 1872-2012


Sevco to be toast next!

[CropleyWasGod]

@carasulieman: Lord Hodge granted the petitions and oldco #Rangers are now in liquidation.

Deadhun.

A Pedant writes.... They're no deid until the liquidation has ended. That could take years.

To paraphrase Winnie... "this is not the end, nor even the beginning of the end....but, **** me, we're getting close."

[JimBHibees]

A Pedant writes.... They're no deid until the liquidation has ended. That could take years.

To paraphrase Winnie... "this is not the end, nor even the beginning of the end....but, **** me, we're getting close."

So what happens now?

[Moulin Yarns]

So what happens now?

The hammer and nails are laid on the coffin lid in readiness.

[CropleyWasGod]

So what happens now?

BDO are now in place as liquidators. It is their job to wind the company up, to the benefit of creditors.

Normally, that would just be a simple case of pulling in all the cash that is available, and doling it out to the creditors. However, they may take the view that there is mileage (and money) to be had in reviewing the conduct of the administration, and challenging the transaction that valued the assets of the company at £5.5m.

That's a gamble, I reckon. Such a move would cost money, and there is no guarantee of success. So, it may result in creditors receiving even less than they are currently entitled to.

They may decide to sue D&P for the amount of that alleged undervalue. Again, no guarantee of success.

Also, D&P were suing Collyer Bristow for £25?m. BDO will need to take a view on whether they continue with that.

The most immediate event will be the FTT verdict, which will affect the amount available to creditors. Once that verdict is in, BDO may take a view on the culpability (and hence the liability) of the directors of RFC at the time the EBT's were being used. That might be fun.

However, we have to bear in mind that BDO only have £1.7m to play with now. They have to get their own fees out of that, and there may not be enough in the pot to enable them to do all of the above.

All in all, there is plenty to keep this thread going over the winter.:greengrin

[Spike Mandela]

So what happens now?


Unfortunately in the sham fantasy world of Scottish football Rangers carry on regardless and attempt to get into the Semi Final of a national tournament of which we are out. In the real world creditors continue to get royally shafted.

[ballengeich]

However, we have to bear in mind that BDO only have £1.7m to play with now. They have to get their own fees out of that, and there may not be enough in the pot to enable them to do all of the above.


I've a question for you about this. You're saying that the extent of BDO's activities is restricted by the amount in the company's pot. I can see that in a situation where a business failure has resulted from bad, but well-intentioned, management decisions. However, is there any way that they can access other funds (perhaps from HMRC) if initial investigations indicate potential criminal activity?

If there isn't, then the implication would be that a swindler's chance of getting away with things would be greater the more efficient he was in removing resources from a business. That doesn't sound right.

[CropleyWasGod]

I've a question for you about this. You're saying that the extent of BDO's activities is restricted by the amount in the company's pot. I can see that in a situation where a business failure has resulted from bad, but well-intentioned, management decisions. However, is there any way that they can access other funds (perhaps from HMRC) if initial investigations indicate potential criminal activity?

If there isn't, then the implication would be that a swindler's chance of getting away with things would be greater the more efficient he was in removing resources from a business. That doesn't sound right.

Good question. Which means "no idea, mate". :greengrin

I would doubt it, especially as it would probably set a precedent. I can't see HMRC (for example) being allowed to do it..... and, from a commercial point of view, it may not be worth their while.

On your last point, there is "getting away with things" commercially, but also legally. You're probably right about the former, but if a liquidator is worth his salt, he will be able to refer things to the police and let the public pay for the swindler's come-uppance. And then, once guilt has been proven legally, it is easier to bring private cases to recover losses.

[ballengeich]

Good question. Which means "no idea, mate". :greengrin

I would doubt it, especially as it would probably set a precedent. I can't see HMRC (for example) being allowed to do it..... and, from a commercial point of view, it may not be worth their while.

On your last point, there is "getting away with things" commercially, but also legally. You're probably right about the former, but if a liquidator is worth his salt, he will be able to refer things to the police and let the public pay for the swindler's come-uppance. And then, once guilt has been proven legally, it is easier to bring private cases to recover losses.

Thanks for the reply. I'd thought it possible that HMRC might have a general "public interest" fund which would allow them to continue investigations which an individual company's residual funds couldn't support.

[CropleyWasGod]

Thanks for the reply. I'd thought it possible that HMRC might have a general "public interest" fund which would allow them to continue investigations which an individual company's residual funds couldn't support.

This might be what you're after.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/emmanual/em0367.htm

[VickMackie]

BDO are now in place as liquidators. It is their job to wind the company up, to the benefit of creditors.

Normally, that would just be a simple case of pulling in all the cash that is available, and doling it out to the creditors. However, they may take the view that there is mileage (and money) to be had in reviewing the conduct of the administration, and challenging the transaction that valued the assets of the company at £5.5m.

That's a gamble, I reckon. Such a move would cost money, and there is no guarantee of success. So, it may result in creditors receiving even less than they are currently entitled to.

They may decide to sue D&P for the amount of that alleged undervalue. Again, no guarantee of success.

Also, D&P were suing Collyer Bristow for £25?m. BDO will need to take a view on whether they continue with that.

The most immediate event will be the FTT verdict, which will affect the amount available to creditors. Once that verdict is in, BDO may take a view on the culpability (and hence the liability) of the directors of RFC at the time the EBT's were being used. That might be fun.

However, we have to bear in mind that BDO only have £1.7m to play with now. They have to get their own fees out of that, and there may not be enough in the pot to enable them to do all of the above.

All in all, there is plenty to keep this thread going over the winter.:greengrin

If I were a creditor now I'd be saying 'keep my cash and go after the corrupt *****, the whole lot'.

If BDO go hard after the same type of law firm as D&P are they likely to damage their own business in the long run by being outcast from the industry?

[CropleyWasGod]

If I were a creditor now I'd be saying 'keep my cash and go after the corrupt *****, the whole lot'.

If BDO go hard after the same type of law firm as D&P are they likely to damage their own business in the long run by being outcast from the industry?

No. That's their job.

[VickMackie]

No. That's their job.

Excellent, thanks.

[ballengeich]

This might be what you're after.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/emmanual/em0367.htm

Thanks again. Given HMRC's replacement of D&P for the liquidation procedure, I suspect these guys are keeping an eye on progress.

[Spike Mandela]

Now it's Sevco tax case. Here we go again...................

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/the-times-reports-that-key-rangers-shareholder-faces-tax-inquiry/#more-2453

[Www1875hfc]

Oh Dear. :greengrin

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/money/tax/article3587849.ece#

[Kaiser1962]

Now it's Sevco tax case. Here we go again...................

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/the-times-reports-that-key-rangers-shareholder-faces-tax-inquiry/#more-2453


Paragraph from the Dodds article in the Sunday Herald May 27 2012

"It's not that players are dodging tax, it's just that there are different avenues open to them to pay lower tax rates. There are schemes such as film partnerships that you could pay money into as an individual and so not pay higher tax rates. Image rights seem to be a more recent one that is popular in England."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/i-refuse-to-believe-major-players-evaded-paying-millions-in-tax.17704904

[CropleyWasGod]

Now it's Sevco tax case. Here we go again...................

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/the-times-reports-that-key-rangers-shareholder-faces-tax-inquiry/#more-2453

To be fair to the Huns (sorry, those two words in the same sentence:greengrin), there's nothing in there that suggests they have been up to anything.

[Spike Mandela]

To be fair to the Huns (sorry, those two words in the same sentence:greengrin), there's nothing in there that suggests they have been up to anything.

No matter what you call them Rangers, The Rangers, Oldco, Newco or just plain Huns the one word that always comes to mind these days whenever you hear them mentioned is CORRUPTION.

[VickMackie]

Oh Dear. :greengrin

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/money/tax/article3587849.ece#

Any chance of a copy and paste for non subscribers? :greengrin

Is that not the same scheme that Neil Lennon invested in? Jimmy Carr as well I think.

[s.a.m]

http://scottishfootballmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/why-the-beast-of-armageddon-failed-to-show/

Interesting piece by Stuart Cosgrove on Armageddon not happening, and the power shift from main stream media to social media etc,,,,

[PatHead]

It is a good blog however he doesn't really cover the power that the internet had on the "leaders" of SPL,SFA and co. Wish he had mentioned them as they were the ones pushing the story as much as the press. They still haven't received their penalty and continue to screw our game.

[The_Sauz]

Rangers are set to pay a final instalment of £800,000 to Rapid Vienna for former striker Nikica Jelavic, £200,000 less than the original agreed fee, to stave off the threat of a FIFA court case. (Daily Star/Daily Express)

How come Charlie boy said over 2 month ago, that all football debts were paid by servco, yet Dundee Utd said they never got paid, and now this :confused:
Is Mr Green a liar....Shirley no???

[Golden Bear]

Rangers are set to pay a final instalment of £800,000 to Rapid Vienna for former striker Nikica Jelavic, £200,000 less than the original agreed fee, to stave off the threat of a FIFA court case. (Daily Star/Daily Express)

How come Charlie boy said over 2 month ago, that all football debts were paid by servco, yet Dundee Utd said they never got paid, and now this :confused:
Is Mr Green a liar....Shirley no???

"When Rangers returned as a newco, Rapid argued that because the Ibrox Club took the money from Everton for the sale of Jelavic in January this year, his club (Rapid) were due every penny of the deal that took the Croatian from Vienna to Glasgow two years earlier"

And who can argue?

[LeighLoyal]

Rangers are set to pay a final instalment of £800,000 to Rapid Vienna for former striker Nikica Jelavic, £200,000 less than the original agreed fee, to stave off the threat of a FIFA court case. (Daily Star/Daily Express)

How come Charlie boy said over 2 month ago, that all football debts were paid by servco, yet Dundee Utd said they never got paid, and now this :confused:
Is Mr Green a liar....Shirley no???



Do Berz sh it in the woods?

[PatHead]

Due to the ongoings at Tynecastle Newco Rangers have kind of slipped out of notice. However that zombie share issue that was so 'over-subscribed' is, well,......

Not.
Now if you are a zombie with say £50 spare after giro day, you can buy shares as a 'collective purchase scheme' or a CPS as it will henceforth be known, oh wait a minute, that'll confuse them with the letters from the Crown Prosecution Service!!

Tune in next week for another fantastic idea when chuckles brings back the half penny share!!!!

If they can't raise the money from their real 400,000 bigotted support what chance have their Edinburgh cousins got?

[green glory]

https://twitter.com/paulmcc12/status/266821750363418626

Hmm.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://twitter.com/paulmcc12/status/266821750363418626

Hmm.

You've read too many John Grisham novels :greengrin

[euansdad]

Due to the ongoings at Tynecastle Newco Rangers have kind of slipped out of notice. However that zombie share issue that was so 'over-subscribed' is, well,......

Not.
Now if you are a zombie with say £50 spare after giro day, you can buy shares as a 'collective purchase scheme' or a CPS as it will henceforth be known, oh wait a minute, that'll confuse them with the letters from the Crown Prosecution Service!!

Tune in next week for another fantastic idea when chuckles brings back the half penny share!!!!

If they can't raise the money from their real 400,000 bigotted support what chance have their Edinburgh cousins got?





Indeed. Worrying signs for the jumbos

[ballengeich]

http://scottishfootballmonitor.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/why-the-beast-of-armageddon-failed-to-show/

Interesting piece by Stuart Cosgrove on Armageddon not happening, and the power shift from main stream media to social media etc,,,,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-20256232

While I don't use the word Armageddon, there are difficult financial times ahead. The worry about Rangers leaving the SPL was not the absence of their fans. That was a predictable amount, and a manageable percentage of clubs' finances. The unknown factor, and hence the cause of fear for financial managers, was the effect on sponsorship. My expectation is that sponsorship of individual clubs will hold up, but that there is likely to be a loss at the collective SPL level. That amount is not yet known and I see a level of complacency among fans.

For example, while exact figures haven't been published, I get the impression that the new Sky deal is at the same level as the previous one when an increase had been anticipated. I'm not aware of public information on how other sponsorship packages have gone.

The Clydesdale Bank's SPL sponsorship stops at the end of this season. That was going to happen anyway, but what replacement will be found?

The general financial situation means that companies would have been likely to have been cutting back anyway, but Rangers' departure may (we'll never know for sure) cause some to be less likely to contribute to Scottish football.

While the problems at Hearts and Dunfermline are not caused by Rangers' absence, there will be a requirement for clubs to be far more careful about their spending in future. That was needed anyway, but I think the requirement has become more urgent. The ones that make it should be stronger, but a few may disappear.

There's likely to be media campaigning to accelerate Rangers' return to the SPL. Imo that would be the ultimate disaster because of the number of supporters of other teams who would simply stop attending.

[s.a.m]

:thumbsup:2 million views! Who would have thought this time last year, that Rangers would have provided so many with so much entertainment?!
:cheers:

[jacomo]

:thumbsup:2 million views! Who would have thought this time last year, that Rangers would have provided so many with so much entertainment?!
:cheers:

Good to see this back on the first page after being relegated due to recent events.

The race is now on for the mini-Huns to "go Zombie" too before the end of 2012. It's been an up and down year for Hibs - or more accurately, first down, then up! :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Finally, the truth is out.

Distract yourselves for ten minutes from Yamageddon, and read the untold story about Hunageddon.....

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/09/revealed-the-conspiracy-to-sink-rangers-football-club/

[PatHead]

Finally, the truth is out.

Distract yourselves for ten minutes from Yamageddon, and read the untold story about Hunageddon.....

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/09/revealed-the-conspiracy-to-sink-rangers-football-club/

I really didn't know this had been so well planned. Does Minty get a Papal knighthood then? Will Cardinal Winning become a saint?

I knew it had nothing to do with Rangers all along.

[LeighLoyal]

I see the Sevco dobs have got a big cannon on the pitch at Mordor for their minutes silence today. The same shameless zombies that didn't pay the queen's tax and deprived the armed forces and NHS of money. Total morons.


http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/full/685271493.jpg?key=600450&Expires=1352554897&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=Jwllpldpozxet9tjaqmCVvuhOhfIEOPV~FrsRUB5 gPuySZ7aFU61~FskZbfBL1Wc1glvjnZkVFV5W3ZDwXBxcvkr~6 2p7mlV2l69kwSz1u2pQ8F6u3TFdD8ZIcB92911WDgrVjx~pImQ DCd-zJ1gclPonRLCzZD2wY4x4tvPN3A_

[StevieC]

I see the Sevco dobs have got a big cannon on the pitch at Mordor for their minutes silence today. The same shameless zombies that didn't pay the queen's tax and deprived the armed forces and NHS of money. Total morons.


http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/full/685271493.jpg?key=600450&Expires=1352554897&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=Jwllpldpozxet9tjaqmCVvuhOhfIEOPV~FrsRUB5 gPuySZ7aFU61~FskZbfBL1Wc1glvjnZkVFV5W3ZDwXBxcvkr~6 2p7mlV2l69kwSz1u2pQ8F6u3TFdD8ZIcB92911WDgrVjx~pImQ DCd-zJ1gclPonRLCzZD2wY4x4tvPN3A_

It's to stop anyone from trying to leave the ground early.

[Seveno]

I see the Sevco dobs have got a big cannon on the pitch at Mordor for their minutes silence today. The same shameless zombies that didn't pay the queen's tax and deprived the armed forces and NHS of money. Total morons.


http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/full/685271493.jpg?key=600450&Expires=1352554897&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=Jwllpldpozxet9tjaqmCVvuhOhfIEOPV~FrsRUB5 gPuySZ7aFU61~FskZbfBL1Wc1glvjnZkVFV5W3ZDwXBxcvkr~6 2p7mlV2l69kwSz1u2pQ8F6u3TFdD8ZIcB92911WDgrVjx~pImQ DCd-zJ1gclPonRLCzZD2wY4x4tvPN3A_

A big canon, did you say ? Isn't that a bishop ?

[euansdad]

I hate rangers with a passion but one thing I have to hold my hands up to is te crowds they still get in division three. Pretty impressive

[PatHead]

They still dont get it! It was all Craigie or everyone else.............
Source Scotsman-

SANDY Jardine launched the celebrations of Rangers’ 140th anniversary yesterday with the claim that no other club could compare with their achievements. The former Rangers player, now a club ambassador, said the celebrations were a way of thanking the supporters for their backing during the financial problems of the past year.
“It’s about surviving and celebrating a fantastic history,” Jardine said. “I noticed Celtic are celebrating 125 years and they are a fantastic club. But – maybe I’m biased – they don’t come anywhere near what we’ve done in 140 years when you look back through our history.
“So it’s only right we should recognise our history and celebrate it. Celebrate that the club is now back and on it’s way to getting back on its feet.”
The recognised anniversary of the founding of Rangers in 1872 actually fell six months ago, when the club was still in turmoil after being placed in administration by former owner Craig Whyte. The commemoration will now take place at the home league game against Stirling Albion on 8 December, when a host of former players will take their bow on the pitch at half-time.
“Our 140th anniversary should have been the last week in May, but that’s when the club went into administration, so it was put on the back burner,” Jardine continued. “It’s important that we do celebrate our 140 years, because, six months ago, we might not have had a club.
“We have come through a difficult period and we have a long way to go. But we have started on a journey of rebuilding, and hopefully the club can get back on its feet and back to where we were as the leading force in 
Scottish .
Some observers continue to argue that Rangers’ history ended when the old club went into administration in February, and that the new company run by Charles Green does not have any trophies to its name. However, Jardine was adamant that, whatever the legal niceties about different company names, there is still continuity between 1872 and the present day.
“What we want to get across is that we are the same club – with the same strips, the same stadium and the same ethos. We want to give something back to the fans, because one of the biggest things to come out of all this has been their support.
“They have been nothing but fantastic. Every game is a sell-out and as long as the fans stay with us, we will get back on our feet.
“Everyone at the club is amazed at the passion and support they have given to us, and this is a thank-you to them. We will get a lot of ex-players back for the day and there will be a half-time parade to celebrate our 140 years.
“It has been hard to grasp what has happened. Being on the inside, you can understand, but other people are probably amazed that Rangers could go into administration and nearly die – all because of near enough one man: Craig Whyte.
“Now we want to put the club back on its feet. We can’t change what has happened, but we can make sure Rangers get back to the level we once were at – and we are all determined to get there.
“We are in a rebuilding process and the first year was always going to be really difficult, mainly because of the indecision of the SPL and the SFA and being so late on a decision. I think it was 12 hours before we played Brechin we got our licence [to play as a club and then we had to start to sign and re-sign players knowing an embargo was going to kick in. Had the SFA or the SPL reached an earlier decision, this club would probably have been further down the road in the recovery.
“I do know that, having witnessed everything since the start of the season, we will get back to where we were. Putting a time-scale on it, I’ve no idea.”

[euansdad]

His line on Craig whyte says it all. Nowt to do with murrays overspending then?

[Sir David Gray]

They still dont get it! It was all Craigie or everyone else.............
Source Scotsman-

SANDY Jardine launched the celebrations of Rangers’ 140th anniversary yesterday with the claim that no other club could compare with their achievements. The former Rangers player, now a club ambassador, said the celebrations were a way of thanking the supporters for their backing during the financial problems of the past year.
“It’s about surviving and celebrating a fantastic history,” Jardine said. “I noticed Celtic are celebrating 125 years and they are a fantastic club. But – maybe I’m biased – they don’t come anywhere near what we’ve done in 140 years when you look back through our history.
“So it’s only right we should recognise our history and celebrate it. Celebrate that the club is now back and on it’s way to getting back on its feet.”
The recognised anniversary of the founding of Rangers in 1872 actually fell six months ago, when the club was still in turmoil after being placed in administration by former owner Craig Whyte. The commemoration will now take place at the home league game against Stirling Albion on 8 December, when a host of former players will take their bow on the pitch at half-time.
“Our 140th anniversary should have been the last week in May, but that’s when the club went into administration, so it was put on the back burner,” Jardine continued. “It’s important that we do celebrate our 140 years, because, six months ago, we might not have had a club.
“We have come through a difficult period and we have a long way to go. But we have started on a journey of rebuilding, and hopefully the club can get back on its feet and back to where we were as the leading force in 
Scottish .
Some observers continue to argue that Rangers’ history ended when the old club went into administration in February, and that the new company run by Charles Green does not have any trophies to its name. However, Jardine was adamant that, whatever the legal niceties about different company names, there is still continuity between 1872 and the present day.
“What we want to get across is that we are the same club – with the same strips, the same stadium and the same ethos. We want to give something back to the fans, because one of the biggest things to come out of all this has been their support.
“They have been nothing but fantastic. Every game is a sell-out and as long as the fans stay with us, we will get back on our feet.
“Everyone at the club is amazed at the passion and support they have given to us, and this is a thank-you to them. We will get a lot of ex-players back for the day and there will be a half-time parade to celebrate our 140 years.
“It has been hard to grasp what has happened. Being on the inside, you can understand, but other people are probably amazed that Rangers could go into administration and nearly die – all because of near enough one man: Craig Whyte.
“Now we want to put the club back on its feet. We can’t change what has happened, but we can make sure Rangers get back to the level we once were at – and we are all determined to get there.
“We are in a rebuilding process and the first year was always going to be really difficult, mainly because of the indecision of the SPL and the SFA and being so late on a decision. I think it was 12 hours before we played Brechin we got our licence [to play as a club and then we had to start to sign and re-sign players knowing an embargo was going to kick in. Had the SFA or the SPL reached an earlier decision, this club would probably have been further down the road in the recovery.
“I do know that, having witnessed everything since the start of the season, we will get back to where we were. Putting a time-scale on it, I’ve no idea.”

Genuine question.

How can a club that was only founded 6 months ago celebrate a 140th anniversary? :confused:

[Hibs Class]

Genuine question.

How can a club that was only founded 6 months ago celebrate a 140th anniversary? :confused:

By getting an intellectual heavyweight like jardine to do the maths?

[euansdad]

I have no love for Celtic but this is why I have more of a regard for them personally than rangers. The Huns bang on about dignity but their real nature is arrogance, triumphalism and petty points scoring. You'd have thought what has happened to them would have brought them back down to earth a wee bit but obviously not so

[PatHead]

A friend's Golden Labrador he had for years died. They got another one, it looks the same to me, is his pet, its a labrador, gold, still goes for a walk with him but it isn't the same. His other dog is died and isn't coming back.

[CropleyWasGod]

A friend's Golden Labrador he had for years died. They got another one, it looks the same to me, is his pet, its a labrador, gold, still goes for a walk with him but it isn't the same. His other dog is died and isn't coming back. Still gets the same joy out it though

.... and it still craps on everyone else's garden. :rolleyes:

[PatHead]

.... and it still craps on everyone else's garden. :rolleyes:

:greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

A friend's Golden Labrador he had for years died. They got another one, it looks the same to me, is his pet, its a labrador, gold, still goes for a walk with him but it isn't the same. His other dog is died and isn't coming back.

Exactly. (Whereas if your friend had been smart enough to call his/her new dug The Fido, it would be the same dog and the previous dog wouldn't have died at all.)

[ian cruise]

I hate rangers with a passion but one thing I have to hold my hands up to is te crowds they still get in division three. Pretty impressive

I was at the game yesterday (owed it too my mate, I've made him sit through some pretty terrible Hobs games in the past including the Elfsborg tie a few years back) and though there was pretty much a full house the atmosphere was terrible. Everyone around me was just sitting chatting about everything bar the game.

[YehButNoBut]

Smith back at Ibrox

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20292601

Walter Smith has returned to Ibrox as a director of Rangers.

Smith, who has accepted a non-executive role on the board along with Ian
Hart, won 10 league titles over two spells as Rangers manager.

"It is a great privilege to serve the Club that means so much to me," he told
the club's website.

Current boss Ally McCoist, who previously served as Smith's assistant,
believes the 64-year-old's "presence will be a huge benefit to the club".

"I am delighted to see Walter involved in the Club again," McCoist said.

"He brings tremendous experience, he has done it all and is a Rangers man
through and through. I also support Ian's appointment to the board as he has
done a lot for the youth squad over the years."

Chairman Malcolm Murray and chief executive Charles Green also welcomed the
appointments with the latter commenting: "It is extremely important to have a
board that has the respect of investors and Rangers supporters.

"The consortium I led to buy the club are not Rangers people but there could
be none better than Walter and Ian to fill that void and we are delighted they
have agreed to become non-executive directors to broaden the skills and
qualifications of the board."

[ballengeich]

This is going around as CG's presentation to institutional investors :-

https://skydrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=7241D12A18C19C59!387&app=PowerPoint

I've seen more convincing documents involving Nigerian bankers. The only evidence that this is not a hoax is the standard of their presentation to the SPL meeting which didn't allow the share transfer.

[PatHead]

So the institutional investors are going to rush because St Mirren and Birmingham turned down takeovers (assume this is to make football looking like an attractive investment) How stupid do they think these people are?

BTW Openly mentions that Celtic and Rangers want out of Scottish football. Wonder how Celtic feel about being part of Rangers share offer.

[JeMeSouviens]

So the institutional investors are going to rush because St Mirren and Birmingham turned down takeovers (assume this is to make football looking like an attractive investment) How stupid do they think these people are?

BTW Openly mentions that Celtic and Rangers want out of Scottish football. Wonder how Celtic feel about being part of Rangers share offer.

It also openly mentions that that is the long term purpose of the "colt" teams. :rolleyes:

[Matty_Jack04]

It also openly mentions that that is the long term purpose of the "colt" teams. :rolleyes:

Looks like its going to be time to put our disagreements to the other member clubs AGAIN I'm certainly not willing to sit back and watch these idiots restructure Scottish football for the sole benefit of these 2 clubs especially that one of them has been found out to be cheating and is in the lower teir of Scottish football still attempting to pull the strings.
I would rather we all had a fair system and fair league without the Glasgow brothers and struggled with money rather than give them 2 sides each and then let them slip off down south or wherever and leave us with reserve sides, it's massively disrespectful to every other club and when the time came for their first teams to leave we'd all suffer reductions in everything as companies won't pay the same for coverage of e.g hibs v Celtic II

also let's not forget that it was these 2 teams that got the reserve league scrapped! Making it more difficult for the young guys to make the step to the first team now they want there young guys playing competitively every week whilst we all make do with U19 leagues

[Keith_M]

This is going around as CG's presentation to institutional investors :-

https://skydrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=7241D12A18C19C59!387&app=PowerPoint

I've seen more convincing documents involving Nigerian bankers. The only evidence that this is not a hoax is the standard of their presentation to the SPL meeting which didn't allow the share transfer.

It says that Ibrox Stadium and Murray Park were independently valued at 79M. If so, how come Chuckie got the lot for 5.5M?

[CropleyWasGod]

It says that Ibrox Stadium and Murray Park were independently valued at 79M. If so, how come Chuckie got the lot for 5.5M?

Can't see that bit. What page is it on?

[greenginger]

I heard a good story last week from a relative who works for a large Edinburgh based financial institution (who happen to sponsor a Dutch football club ).
Anyway their investment arm was holding its usual series of meetings with various people who were making their pitches ,looking for all types of funding.

Anyway an inexperienced assistant had booked a slot for the Sevco pitch but when they it was found out who they were they were sent packing, not even allowed in the room.:greengrin

[Keith_M]

Can't see that bit. What page is it on?

Sorry, just tried to look at it again and I now can't access the document. The site is asking for login details, which it didn't do earlier. Is anyone else having the same trouble?

Anyway, there's a slide in there somewhere that mentions the valuations as 65M for Ibrox and 14M for Murray Park. Possibly slide 6.

[PatHead]

Sorry, just tried to look at it again and I now can't access the document. The site is asking for login details, which it didn't do earlier. Is anyone else having the same trouble?

Anyway, there's a slide in there somewhere that mentions the valuations as 65M for Ibrox and 14M for Murray Park. Possibly slide 6.


I'm the same. One other thing I noted was that they have a list of salaries paid by SPL clubs. Firstly they should be comparing themselves to their competitors in the 3rd division and secondly they showed everyone else as 2011 figures whilst theirs were estimated for 2012. Most SPL clubs have dropped their salaries dramatically.

[joe breezy]

Celtic Quick New reaction

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk

Charles Green told TalkSport, “Scottish football effectively is Rangers and Celtic. I mean, there are many other clubs but everyone has to acknowledge that that’s a fact.”


No, no, no, no. No. This is not a fact, it is not even a credible opinion. Instead it is deeply insulting to dozens of teams who conduct their business properly year after year. I have to ask, does he want this project to fail? He is effectively saying – Vote for this plan, you are irrelevant, we are all that matters and this suits our purposes.

It was this erroneous attitude which led to predictions of Armageddon this season. Instead, the long-suffering clubs who have paid their bills, while others put money which should have gone to the tax man towards buying fooballers, are enjoying a rebirth.

Green added, “Scottish football needs Rangers back at the top and Rangers being a vital part of European football. That’s where we’re trying to get them.”

This is a great season for the SPL. Financially responsible Hibs, who lost the Scottish Cup final to irresponsible Hearts, are top. Celtic, with their manageable, low, debt, have just beaten Barcelona in the Champions League. Aberdeen have their best team in years. Attendances are up for most clubs.

Before adding, “The Old Firm is the world’s biggest derby. That’s what world football wants, what broadcasters and sponsors wants, to see those games again. God willing we’ll see that in the years ahead.”

“The Old Firm” is not the world’s biggest derby, it’s not even Glasgow’s biggest derby. It doesn’t exist anymore. As for it being “what world football wants”! Oh dear. World football has better things to concern itself with, and don’t bring God into it!

The authenticity of the “Rangers Football Club plc” slideshow presentation which appeared last night is not confirmed, but I hope it’s genuine. It is, literally, fantastic. Notions contained therein that provide for “colts” teams and league reconstruction which “could see Rangers progress faster through the domestic league structures” bring it into perfect alignment with the Scottish Football League plans, which earlier this week Charles Green revealed would be presented today.

I also loved the first point on the summary page, “Profitable business model using prudent assumptions”, despite no mention of future costs, or revenues, in the presentation. Nice that they have confirmed revaluations of property assets at £79m, a fraction of the value the assets were disposed for in the summer.

This will not end well.

[BonnieFitbaTeam]

The £65m and £14m figures quoted by Keekaboo were indeed the figures used in the document. "...professionally valued..." was the term used. Got themselves a bargain there, eh !

The bit that made me laugh was their boast that season ticket prices had been reduced for this season and were now 33% lower than Sellick's. I should ****in' well think so, three divisions lower !

Document is risible.....if it's genuine.

[CropleyWasGod]

The £65m and £14m figures quoted by Keekaboo were indeed the figures used in the document. "...professionally valued..." was the term used. Got themselves a bargain there, eh !

The bit that made me laugh was their boast that season ticket prices had been reduced for this season and were now 33% lower than Sellick's. I should ****in' well think so, three divisions lower !

Document is risible.

Those figures weren't in the version I saw... but it has now been taken down. The CelticQuickNews piece post suggests it might not be authentic, though. :rolleyes:

[BonnieFitbaTeam]

Those figures weren't in the version I saw... but it has now been taken down. The CelticQuickNews piece post suggests it might not be authentic, though. :rolleyes:

That would be a shame :greengrin

Let's face it, the content of mostly wind and pish is entirely what we've come to expect from that utter tool, Green, so it would be easy to assume that it is genuine.

[StevieC]

I'm the same. One other thing I noted was that they have a list of salaries paid by SPL clubs. Firstly they should be comparing themselves to their competitors in the 3rd division and secondly they showed everyone else as 2011 figures whilst theirs were estimated for 2012. Most SPL clubs have dropped their salaries dramatically.

They also had, excluding TV money, Aston Villa (avg. att. 33k) generating more income than Newcastle United (avg. att. 50k). And Spurs (avg. att. 36k) generating more income than both of them combined.

I've no idea what the actual figures are but at first glance most of the bar charts seemed to be "made up". Or at worst, massaged to suit.

[VickMackie]

It says that Ibrox Stadium and Murray Park were independently valued at 79M. If so, how come Chuckie got the lot for 5.5M?

They actually got them for 1.5 million if you check the breakdown of the 5.5.

I said the same last night. Biggest stitch up ever.

[Kaiser1962]

They also had, excluding TV money, Aston Villa (avg. att. 33k) generating more income than Newcastle United (avg. att. 50k). And Spurs (avg. att. 36k) generating more income than both of them combined.

I've no idea what the actual figures are but at first glance most of the bar charts seemed to be "made up". Or at worst, massaged to suit.

What a pity he has zero chance of playing in England then :greengrin

[euansdad]

The same old arrogance remains with them. Unbelievable. Im sure they think the rest of us should be grateful for the mighty rangers existence

[YehButNoBut]

On STV news just now that Green intends to impose a stringent wage cap at Rangers so that Rangers wages will never be more than 33% of their turnover.

Much lower than current SPL clubs which is around 61% (apart from Hearts that is who are around 120%).

This would obviously mean little or no chance of glamour signings in the future.

He has said that the players and staff can forget about "crazy" wages in the future.

[green glory]

On STV news just now that Green intends to impose a stringent wage cap at Rangers so that Rangers wages will never be more than 33% of their turnover.

Much lower than current SPL clubs which is around 61%.

This would obviously mean little or no chance of glamour signings in the future.

He has said that the players and staff can forget about "crazy" wages in the future.

Too busy watching Rona Dougall to take much in lol.

[YehButNoBut]

Full details here http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/200640-rangers-plan-wage-caps-and-season-ticket-hikes-to-revive-club/

Rangers' owners are planning to impose a strict wage cap and sharply increase season ticket prices as a key part of their share offering.

Documents seen by STV's Scotland Tonight programme show that the consortium behind Rangers wants to restrict wages to 33% of turnover, barely half the average ratio for SPL clubs. The owners also plan to increase season ticket prices by 20% in 2014 followed by a further 15% hike the following year as the club is expected to climb up through the divisions.

Notes from broker Cenkos Securities, seen by STV ahead of the stock market flotation of The Rangers Football Club Ltd next month, reveal the season ticket prices would return to similar levels as last season, prior to the financial collapse of the oldco.

Cenkos’s projections state that although the company will run at a £3.5m operating loss in 2013, it could bring in an operating profit of £10.9m in 2015. Rangers chief executive Charles Green has endorsed the pre-initial public offering notes made by the brokers.


The severe constraints would put top European players beyond Rangers' reach, but the brokers believe that fiscal discipline will give the club a long-term advantage over "irrational competitors". The projections by Cenkos claim that the value of shares in the newco club could “more than double in three years”, but this has been described as unrealistic by football finance expert Neil Patey.

According to the brokers, Rangers directors are committed to a maximum ratio of players' wages to turnover of 33%, which is almost half of the 2010 Scottish Premier League average ratio of 61%, while English Premier League clubs sit at a current wage-to-turnover ratio average of 70%.

The notes state that in 2013 the first team payroll is to constitute 26% of all revenues with it currently sitting at around £7.5m, which will reduce to 18% of all revenues in the next two years as Cenkos predicts turnover to hit £46.5m by 2015.

Cenkos states that it “believe that this will be achievable with our growth revenue forecast and the current level of players wages being paid gives significant room for manoeuvre.”

The brokers also believe that the policy would be in line with UEFA’s financial fair play regulations, which stipulate that wage-to-turnover ratio should not be higher than 60%. Cenkos states: “We suggest that investors should take comfort from UEFA’s reforms which are designed to end financial instability within football clubs.

"We believe the high level of player wage inflation and transfer fees driven by irrational competitors will be significantly reduced and, as one of the 20 best supported teams in Europe, the requirement for clubs to live within their means should work towards Rangers’ competitive advantage.”

Comparisons in the document are made to Celtic and Manchester United’s share market flotations as successes, with the brokers stating: “In our view the old notion that revenues from television are the only driver of value for football clubs has proven to be incorrect and it is the potential for selling branded product on a global, multi-channel, basis that has resulted in the value of the leading football clubs appreciating significantly in the past decade.”

The forecast is based on several assumptions set out in the document, including the season ticket price increase, as well as a £1.5m reduction in unspecified overheads. According to Cenkos, non-matchday cash, including the £3m-a-year retail deal with Sports Direct, will bring in £17.5m in 2012-13 financial year, out-weighing matchday revenue of £13.5m. For the 2012/13 Third Division season, Rangers raised £8m through selling 36,000 Ibrox season tickets this year and £1m from corporate hospitality sales, according to the document.

The consortium led by Mr Green purchased the club’s assets from oldco Rangers, now RFC 2012 Ltd, in a £5.5m deal in June after administrators Duff and Phelps failed to maintain it as a going concern.

Mr Green and his group are aiming to raise around £20m through the initial public offering, with payments scheduled to be processed on the scheme by December 17.

Directors of the club are currently involved in road shows pitching the flotation to fans groups and possible investors across the UK.

In 2000, under Sir David Murray, oldco Rangers, now RFC 2012 plc, was floated on the stock market with the aim of raising £53.1m to pay off some of their debts. This resulted in £38m of investment, £32.3m of which was from Sir David's Murray Sports Ltd and the remaining £6m from around 3500 small shareholders.

Four years later Sir David oversaw another share issue which aimed to raised £57m for Rangers. It brought in £51m, only £1m of which was from the fans - the rest being underwritten by the Murray MHL Limited, one of the owner's companies.

This came after the Rangers Bond scheme in 1991, which saw 6700 fans raise £8.5m through buying debentures to construct the Club Deck at Ibrox Stadium. When Rangers went into administration, those who bought into the scheme became creditors.

[steakbake]

On STV news just now that Green intends to impose a stringent wage cap at Rangers so that Rangers wages will never be more than 33% of their turnover.

Much lower than current SPL clubs which is around 61%.

This would obviously mean little or no chance of glamour signings in the future.

He has said that the players and staff can forget about "crazy" wages in the future.

About the first thing he's said that I agree with.

[SurferRosa]

Apologies if this has already been posted. Paul McConvilles analysis of Rangers IPO....very interesting, especially page 8..


http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/the-rangers-football-club-plc-initial-public-offering-presentation-pages-1-3/

[PatHead]

One of the things that jumped out at me was the phrase "bank debt". Why only bank, iit surely hints that they will have debt elsewhere or am I being niave?

[green glory]

One of the things that jumped out at me was the phrase "bank debt". Why only bank, iit surely hints that they will have debt elsewhere or am I being niave?

Another qualifier, like the use of 'no external debt' in the initial share offer. There's debt to be sure. To the investors.

[StevieC]

Apologies if this has already been posted. Paul McConvilles analysis of Rangers IPO....very interesting, especially page 8..


http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/14/the-rangers-football-club-plc-initial-public-offering-presentation-pages-1-3/

Has it been removed??

EDIT: I see that there are strong rumours that it was a fake.

[Ozyhibby]

FTTT released? Lot of twitter chat. Anyone know?

[green glory]

FTTT released? Lot of twitter chat. Anyone know?

Who you getting it from on Twitter so I can follow follow lol?

[Ozyhibby]

@THE_TBK: FTT(T) arrived!!!!! Account going back into 'lockdown'. May post up some redacted elements!!

#ProperGander

[s.a.m]

Ewan Murray‏@mrewanmurray Green adds: "Why wouldn't Barcelona want to play Rangers home and away as opposed to playing Getafe. They would sell (those) games out."

Tom English‏@TomEnglishSport
Charles Green says Barcelona and Real Madrid would love to have Rangers in La Liga. He must be having one hell of a boozy lunch.

15m (http://www.hibs.net/TomEnglishSport/status/269477408502067202)https://twimg0-a.akamaihd.net/profile_images/1665910698/CIMG1036_normal.JPGTom English‏@TomEnglishSport (http://www.hibs.net/TomEnglishSport)
Charles Green tells Associated Press that Manchester United "not hostile" to Rangers joining Premiership. Response from Utd: "We're hostile"

[PatHead]

Excellent interview (imaginary or otherwise) in Scotland on Sunday questioning Mr Green's integrity

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/tom-english-charles-green-s-vision-in-an-exclusive-sorry-imaginary-briefing-1-2643329

[Keith_M]

Excellent interview (imaginary or otherwise) in Scotland on Sunday questioning Mr Green's integrity

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/tom-english-charles-green-s-vision-in-an-exclusive-sorry-imaginary-briefing-1-2643329


That's a fantastic article, though very well hidden on their website.

If you were a suspicous type, you might even imagine that they didn't actually want people to read it :wink:

[lapsedhibee]

Excellent interview (imaginary or otherwise) in Scotland on Sunday questioning Mr Green's integrity

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/tom-english-charles-green-s-vision-in-an-exclusive-sorry-imaginary-briefing-1-2643329

And another in The Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/the-last-word-rangers-court-the-premier-league-as-a-friend-in-greed-8326419.html

"his sales pitch for the shadow club's forthcoming share issue sounded as if it had been conceived during a particularly hectic happy hour on Sauchiehall Street"

[Part/Time Supporter]

May be interesting to note that yet another Rangers newco was set up on Friday.

"Rangers Football plc" (registered office: Ibrox Stadium)

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/dc36168db25f06a6dc27b5053cdc8fd0/compdetails

The only directors are FFW Secretaries Ltd and Edward Laurence Lumb (who is a solicitor with FFW).

[jonty]

May be interesting to note that yet another Rangers newco was set up on Friday.

"Rangers Football plc" (registered office: Ibrox Stadium)

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/dc36168db25f06a6dc27b5053cdc8fd0/compdetails

The only directors are FFW Secretaries Ltd and Edward Laurence Lumb (who is a solicitor with FFW).

hmmm - Edward Laurence 'Succulent' Lumb :hmmm:

[Hibrandenburg]

On STV news just now that Green intends to impose a stringent wage cap at Rangers so that Rangers wages will never be more than 33% of their turnover.

Much lower than current SPL clubs which is around 61% (apart from Hearts that is who are around 120%).

This would obviously mean little or no chance of glamour signings in the future.

He has said that the players and staff can forget about "crazy" wages in the future.


About the first thing he's said that I agree with.

Reading between the lines it means they'll be stealing more of our team in the future.

[Spike Mandela]

FTT result in, Rangers win of sorts. Not due tax but former directors, players etc liable as EBTs considered a loan. Oh dear.

Surely this opens a whole new can of worms. Could loans be called in by liquidators?

[CropleyWasGod]

FTT result in, Rangers win of sorts. Not due tax but former directors, players etc liable as EBTs considered a loan. Oh dear.

Result is here....

http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/judgmentfiles/j6851/TC02372.pdf

I'll be a while :greengrin

[Peevemor]

Result is here....

http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/judgmentfiles/j6851/TC02372.pdf

I'll be a while :greengrin

It reads like the script of Reservoir Dogs. :greengrin

[HoboHarry]

Reading that would give an Aspirin a headache. I gave up...

[The Green Goblin]

First sentence reads: "We have been unable to reach a unanimous view".

[CropleyWasGod]

It's bloody hard going.

At first sight, this is the most significant paragraph:-

Accordingly, the assessments made fall to be reduced substantially. It was
conceded that advances in favour of certain players are taxable and liable to NIC, and
35 we have found that in certain other limited instances, there may be a similar liability.
To that extent the assessments should stand. In these circumstances we expect that it
is sufficient that we allow the Appeal in principle

That suggests that some of the payments from the EBT are indeed taxable. Given the curious way of naming the witnesses, one can't tell who got what, and what is taxable. That may be significant when the SPL make their decision.

For the most part, though, it looks as if the payments have been treated as loans. That means they are recoverable. I am not sure, though, whether that is recoverable by the Trust(s), or by the company. If the latter, that will have a positive effect on the dividend to creditors.

However, the recovery of the loans is not straightforward, IMO. Given that we are talking about some foreign-based players, as well as events that happened some years ago, there will be resistance. Expect long Court cases.

[green glory]

From what I've read it summarises as club in the clear, individuals liable and possibly to be pursued. So it's still guilty, as the tax should have been paid, albeit the individuals responsibility to repay the loan or pay the tax.

For the period it was used an unfair advantage was still gained through it's use though.

[TheEastTerrace]

Blow me, if I was Stewart Regan and Neil Doncaster, I'd be running for the hills.

[Stevie Reid]

Result is here....

http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/judgmentfiles/j6851/TC02372.pdf

I'll be a while :greengrin

Can we speculate on what may happen with regards to the Hearts case based on this verdict? I appreciate that Hearts didn't use EBTs.

[CropleyWasGod]

From what I've read it summarises as club in the clear, individuals liable and possibly to be pursued. So it's still guilty, as the tax should have been paid, albeit the individuals responsibility to repay the loan or pay the tax.

For the period it was used an unfair advantage was still gained through it's use though.

Not how I read it, GG. It does say that the assessments have to be reduced substantially... not removed.

[CropleyWasGod]

Can we speculate on what may happen with regards to the Hearts case based on this verdict? I appreciate that Hearts didn't use EBTs.

Naw :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

HMRC on Rangers tax case

"We are disappointed that we have lost this stage of the court process and we are considering an appeal."

Good-oh.

[Stevie Reid]

Naw :greengrin

:greengrin

[Stevie Reid]

Does this mean that they can't be considered to have used dual contracts by the SPL?

[TheEastTerrace]

Does this mean that they can't be considered to have used dual contracts by the SPL?

That's my question - even though the EBTs were loans and not payments, did Rangers still use dual contracts and therefore illegally register players or does this even matter any more?

[CropleyWasGod]

Does this mean that they can't be considered to have used dual contracts by the SPL?

That's not clear.

The Tribunal say that there are some payments that are liable to PAYE & NI. Unfortunately, though, it's not clear who received those payments.

That will have to be clarified before the SPL can go any further.

[cabbageandribs1875]

On STV news just now that Green intends to impose a stringent wage cap at Rangers so that Rangers wages will never be more than 33% of their turnover.

Much lower than current SPL clubs which is around 61% (apart from Hearts that is who are around 120%).

This would obviously mean little or no chance of glamour signings in the future.

He has said that the players and staff can forget about "crazy" wages in the future.


charles greene kills me he really does, the boy that just couldn't stop lying, comical charlie

:fibber:

[Part/Time Supporter]

It's bloody hard going.

At first sight, this is the most significant paragraph:-

Accordingly, the assessments made fall to be reduced substantially. It was
conceded that advances in favour of certain players are taxable and liable to NIC, and
35 we have found that in certain other limited instances, there may be a similar liability.
To that extent the assessments should stand. In these circumstances we expect that it
is sufficient that we allow the Appeal in principle

That suggests that some of the payments from the EBT are indeed taxable. Given the curious way of naming the witnesses, one can't tell who got what, and what is taxable. That may be significant when the SPL make their decision.

For the most part, though, it looks as if the payments have been treated as loans. That means they are recoverable. I am not sure, though, whether that is recoverable by the Trust(s), or by the company. If the latter, that will have a positive effect on the dividend to creditors.

However, the recovery of the loans is not straightforward, IMO. Given that we are talking about some foreign-based players, as well as events that happened some years ago, there will be resistance. Expect long Court cases.

Good luck getting Billy Dodds to pay up.

:greengrin

[euansdad]

Glamour signings in Scottish division three was never feasible any way!

[LeighLoyal]

Edited: due to reading more. Titles still to be stripped fae oldco.

[PatHead]

Suppose the good thing is that no-one would touch Rangers whilst the Big Tax Case was outstanding. There is every likelihood that they could have been saved rather than sold to Whytie. Shame eh! :faf:

[CropleyWasGod]

Not a good result for justice and fair play. You can bet the ex Rangers FC 1872-2012 (rip) players and office bearers won't have to pay back the loans and will have clauses inserted in their dodgy deals, and the dual contracts will be shelved.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?

If they had such clauses in the loan agreements, then they wouldn't be classed as loans. That is what the FTT has been deliberating this past two years.

[TheEastTerrace]

Whatever happens, Scottish football has permanently been disfigured by this episode.

Gutted is the wrong adjective but safe to say that it's going to be hard to stomach the club and their fans for the forseeable future.

[JeMeSouviens]

A potentially significant section?:


161. Side-letters, of course, had not been registered with the football authorities, the SFA and SPL. The spirit of their rules was that the whole contract terms should be registered. Suspiciously, no evidence was led as to who decided that the benefits in terms of the side-letters should not be registered. Non-registration of side-letters was
40 incompatible with both authorities’ policing and disciplinary powers. For example any fines imposed on players would customarily reflect the disclosed wage. Non- disclosure would thwart the authorities’ powers.
162. Mr Grey had indicated correctly that payments from promotional and other
commercial bodies need not be registered, but the side-letter payments, Mr Thomson 45 argued, were not from such a third party but from the Club and for playing football.
38
The Rules required the widest declaration of benefits, he submitted. It seemed that Mr Grey was unaware of the trust being used for “appearance money”, he observed.
163. On any view, Mr Thomson argued, Rangers could have sought a ruling from
the SFA or SPL about disclosure of side-letters but, clearly, they had chosen not to do 5 so. There was a conscious decision to conceal their existence, and that extended even to the Club’s auditors. The nature and arrangements under the Remuneration Trust had not been disclosed in full to the auditors. In the “key issues document” for 2004 they indicate that they have not reviewed the Trust’s operation and receipts in detail. Mr Thomson noted in particular payments made relating to Mr Purple’s contract in 10 relation to disclosure. Significantly, while Rangers granted numerous indemnities in respect of players’ potential tax liabilities, these documents did not refer expressly to
side-letters, Mr Thomson added.

[CropleyWasGod]

A potentially significant section?:

Could be very damaging, if they are talking about payments that were ultimately deemed to be earnings rather than loans.

[ballengeich]

Given what was in public I'm surprised by the verdict. Could we see court cases where HMRC try to recover 100% of loans from ex-players while these ex-players argue that the EBT money was contractual despite the FTTT verdict so only liable to 40% tax?

I had a brief look at a few pages on RM. The usual triumphalism and vitriol. Predictably lacking was any sign of concern about their former heroes who're likely to find very large tax demands in the mail some day. Perhaps Sportsound will ask Billy Dodds when he plans to repay his loan.

[CropleyWasGod]

Given what was in public I'm surprised by the verdict. Could we see court cases where HMRC try to recover 100% of loans from ex-players while these ex-players argue that the EBT money was contractual despite the FTTT verdict so only liable to 40% tax?

I had a brief look at a few pages on RM. The usual triumphalism and vitriol. Predictably lacking was any sign of concern about their former heroes who're likely to find very large tax demands in the mail some day. Perhaps Sportsound will ask Billy Dodds when he plans to repay his loan.

It's not up to HMRC to try and recover the loans. The loans were from the trust(s), and so the Trustees will have to do it.

Good luck with that, though :greengrin.... there will, as you say, be many Court cases.

You raise an interesting point about the 100% vs 40%. Indeed, if the recipients claim the latter, they might be liable for interest and penalties on the tax that should have been paid years ago...... :cb

[ballengeich]

It's not up to HMRC to try and recover the loans. The loans were from the trust(s), and so the Trustees will have to do it.



Is the trust a part of the liquidated company? If not, can the trustees simply continue the present arrangement that no money will be recovered during the recipient's lifetime? What could HMRC do?

[CropleyWasGod]

Is the trust a part of the liquidated company? If not, can the trustees simply continue the present arrangement that no money will be recovered during the recipient's lifetime? What could HMRC do?

The trust is separate.

This is where my lack of Trust tax law shows its ugly head. I know that, in a Limited Company situation, where a loan to a "participator" is written off or remains unpaid for more than 9 months, HMRC deem that to be a taxable advance. They then recover the tax from the company.

I don't know if that applies in a Trust situation, though. Indeed, it's likely that the Trust(s) won't have any cash anyway, so it would be a futile exercise. Having said that, they were never going to get much cash out of OldHun anyway; it was more about the principle.

HMRC have the option of an appeal, of course. I think they will consider that as their first step. If that fails, you may see them issuing tax assessments on all of those who haven't repaid the loans. That would twist Dodds' melon :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Whatever happens, Scottish football has permanently been disfigured by this episode.

Gutted is the wrong adjective but safe to say that it's going to be hard to stomach the club and their fans for the forseeable future.

I'm not sure why you're gutted (or whatever adjective you decide to use) . It was never going to affect the new club. Any feeling of triumphalism amongst the hordes is misguided and, indeed, may be short-lived. The double-contracts have still to be investigated, and that was always going to be more important for the new club.

[VickMackie]

CWG, if the trust doesn't call in the loan will the loan need to be repaid upon death and be counted in their assets and liabilities?

[VickMackie]

Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that the BTC figure was used in the liabilities total that gave HMRC 75%+ of the total debt and used it to force them into liquidation?

:faf:

[TheEastTerrace]

I'm not sure why you're gutted (or whatever adjective you decide to use) . It was never going to affect the new club. Any feeling of triumphalism amongst the hordes is misguided and, indeed, may be short-lived. The double-contracts have still to be investigated, and that was always going to be more important for the new club.

Yep fully aware that the contract issue remains.

Gutted (or whatever) because I've been sparring in online debates with a current bun mate of mine since this kicked off! If the joy is short lived, tomorrow is a new day haha

[ballengeich]

Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that the BTC figure was used in the liabilities total that gave HMRC 75%+ of the total debt and used it to force them into liquidation?

:faf:

I think that the small tax case and the withheld PAYE and VAT gave HMRC the 25% they needed to block the cva regardless.

[VickMackie]

I think that the small tax case and the withheld PAYE and VAT gave HMRC the 25% they needed to block the cva regardless.

Aw well. Cheers

[EuanH78]

Suppose the good thing is that no-one would touch Rangers whilst the Big Tax Case was outstanding. There is every likelihood that they could have been saved rather than sold to Whytie. Shame eh! :faf:

****in hilarious by my reckoning :greengrin

[ballengeich]

The trust is separate.

This is where my lack of Trust tax law shows its ugly head. I know that, in a Limited Company situation, where a loan to a "participator" is written off or remains unpaid for more than 9 months, HMRC deem that to be a taxable advance. They then recover the tax from the company.

I don't know if that applies in a Trust situation, though. Indeed, it's likely that the Trust(s) won't have any cash anyway, so it would be a futile exercise. Having said that, they were never going to get much cash out of OldHun anyway; it was more about the principle.

HMRC have the option of an appeal, of course. I think they will consider that as their first step. If that fails, you may see them issuing tax assessments on all of those who haven't repaid the loans. That would twist Dodds' melon :greengrin

Neil Patey of Ernst & Young on Sportsound just now has given an opinion that there's no way for HMRC to get anything out of the trust or people it's shelled out to. Dodds is safe:confused:

[Part/Time Supporter]

Neil Patey of Ernst & Young on Sportsound just now has given an opinion that there's no way for HMRC to get anything out of the trust or people it's shelled out to. Dodds is safe:confused:

Same Neil Patey who said that HMRC would vote for the CVA proposal.

:wink:

[hibs0666]

I'm not sure why you're gutted (or whatever adjective you decide to use) . It was never going to affect the new club. Any feeling of triumphalism amongst the hordes is misguided and, indeed, may be short-lived. The double-contracts have still to be investigated, and that was always going to be more important for the new club.

I think that the dual contract situation is now a given. If the tax authorities have determined that EBT payments were loans then these payments can hardly be considered by the SPL to be a contractual payment.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think that the dual contract situation is now a given. If the tax authorities have determined that EBT payments were loans then these payments can hardly be considered by the SPL to be a contractual payment.

They didn't determine that they were all loans. Some were deemed to be taxable . It's not clear which these are....and that will be important for the SPL .

See also JMS post above

[Spike Mandela]

Neil Patey of Ernst & Young on Sportsound just now has given an opinion that there's no way for HMRC to get anything out of the trust or people it's shelled out to. Dodds is safe:confused:

Surely the liquidators will take an interest in this trust and it's 'loans'.:confused:

[LeighLoyal]

This bit 100% confirms the illegal, from a football association point of view, side letters. So they are still going to be stripped, oldco that is, of the tainted titles. :agree:




Rangers Tax Result Para 161 p38:

Side-letters, of course, had not been registered with the football authorities, the SFA and SPL. The spirit of their rules was that the whole contract terms should be registered. Suspiciously, no evidence was led as to who decided that the benefits in terms of the side-letters should not be registered. Non-registration of side-letters was incompatible with both authorities’ policing and disciplinary powers. For example any fines imposed on players would customarily reflect the disclosed wage. Non- disclosure would thwart the authorities’ powers.

[matty_f]

This bit 100% confirms the illegal, from a football association point of view, side letters. So they are still going to be stripped, oldco that is, of the tainted titles. :agree:


Rangers Tax Result Para 161 p38:

Side-letters, of course, had not been registered with the football authorities, the SFA and SPL. The spirit of their rules was that the whole contract terms should be registered. Suspiciously, no evidence was led as to who decided that the benefits in terms of the side-letters should not be registered. Non-registration of side-letters was incompatible with both authorities’ policing and disciplinary powers. For example any fines imposed on players would customarily reflect the disclosed wage. Non- disclosure would thwart the authorities’ powers.

:agree:

Nae luck zombies!

[EuanH78]

This bit 100% confirms the illegal, from a football association point of view, side letters. So they are still going to be stripped, oldco that is, of the tainted titles. :agree:




Rangers Tax Result Para 161 p38:

Side-letters, of course, had not been registered with the football authorities, the SFA and SPL. The spirit of their rules was that the whole contract terms should be registered. Suspiciously, no evidence was led as to who decided that the benefits in terms of the side-letters should not be registered. Non-registration of side-letters was incompatible with both authorities’ policing and disciplinary powers. For example any fines imposed on players would customarily reflect the disclosed wage. Non- disclosure would thwart the authorities’ powers.

Whilst I agree with you, playing devils advocate here - this ruling does not give any obligation to the SPL's ruling. I would strongly suspect that they would (as they said) be taking the lead from this, but Doncaster is a slimey little basturd.

[Eyrie]

Is it worth remembering what happened with John Terry?

Although cleared in a court of law, he was still banned by the FA. Could the SPL take a similar approach and say that there is enough evidence for a conviction under their rules regarding dual contracts even if no tax is due?

[LeighLoyal]

Whilst I agree with you, playing devils advocate here - this ruling does not give any obligation to the SPL's ruling. I would strongly suspect that they would (as they said) be taking the lead from this, but Doncaster is a slimey little basturd.



I wouldn't put anything past zombie helpers Regan or Doncaster, you are correct, but it isn't their call. It's meant to be an independent tribunal. Surely they have to get on with it and apply the sanctions on oldco.

[Crazyhorse]

Is it worth remembering what happened with John Terry?

Although cleared in a court of law, he was still banned by the FA. Could the SPL take a similar approach and say that there is enough evidence for a conviction under their rules regarding dual contracts even if no tax is due?

Let us hope so. But of course McCoist, Green etc will demand to know the names of the people who make this decision so that their loyal(ist) fans can terrorise them.

[CropleyWasGod]

This bit 100% confirms the illegal, from a football association point of view, side letters. So they are still going to be stripped, oldco that is, of the tainted titles. :agree:




Rangers Tax Result Para 161 p38:

Side-letters, of course, had not been registered with the football authorities, the SFA and SPL. The spirit of their rules was that the whole contract terms should be registered. Suspiciously, no evidence was led as to who decided that the benefits in terms of the side-letters should not be registered. Non-registration of side-letters was incompatible with both authorities’ policing and disciplinary powers. For example any fines imposed on players would customarily reflect the disclosed wage. Non- disclosure would thwart the authorities’ powers.

That, for me, doesn't prove anything.

If the side-letters refer to payments that were deemed by the FTT to be loans, then there is no problem.All that is required to be lodged with the SPL/SFA is the contract that sets out the player's wages. They are not interested in anything else.

If, however, they refer to those payments that were deemed to be wages, then there is a problem.

[banchoryhibs]

This is only a First Tier tribunal decision and the BBC reports HMRC saying: "We are disappointed that we have lost this stage of the court process and we are considering an appeal. The decision was not unanimous..."

I expect that there will be many other companies with similar schemes so perhaps HMRC will not be able to leave matters as they are. If there is an appeal it goes to a Second Tier Tribunal where the result could be completely overturned. There are then further avenues of appeal so this may run and run .....

If I supported deadhun I would not get overly excited just yet.:cb

[CropleyWasGod]

This is only a First Tier tribunal decision and the BBC reports HMRC saying: "We are disappointed that we have lost this stage of the court process and we are considering an appeal. The decision was not unanimous..."

I expect that there will be many other companies with similar schemes so perhaps HMRC will not be able to leave matters as they are. If there is an appeal it goes to a Second Tier Tribunal where the result could be completely overturned. There are then further avenues of appeal so this may run and run .....

If I supported deadhun I would not get overly excited just yet.:cb

If you supported DeadHun, you'd be having a boring old season, eh no?:greengrin

Actually, Hector was asked if he would appeal, and he was heard to mumble..... "Too right.....Chucky Ar La!!!"


(our day will come)

[banchoryhibs]

If you supported DeadHun, you'd be having a boring old season, eh no?:greengrin

I'd also be doing my nut at this decision and greeting about how HMRC royally shafted the loyal ones:greengrin :greengrin Entertaining times:thumbsup:

[TheEastTerrace]

That, for me, doesn't prove anything.

If the side-letters refer to payments that were deemed by the FTT to be loans, then there is no problem.All that is required to be lodged with the SPL/SFA is the contract that sets out the player's wages. They are not interested in anything else.

If, however, they refer to those payments that were deemed to be wages, then there is a problem.

I guess this is the big frustration - we all know these loans are salary payments in disguise as the club never had any intention of seeking repayment. I just get the feeling they are going to be ok in terms of the SPL investigation

[CropleyWasGod]

I guess this is the big frustration - we all know these loans are salary payments in disguise as the club never had any intention of seeking repayment. I just get the feeling they are going to be ok in terms of the SPL investigation

The club is irrelevant. The loans were from the Trust(s).

But..... have faith. There are some shrewd legal brains on the SPL commission. :agree:

[Leithenhibby]

I can't see HMRC letting this go too easily :wink: Still a few miles left in this one, Me thinks...

[Part/Time Supporter]

They didn't determine that they were all loans. Some were deemed to be taxable . It's not clear which these are....and that will be important for the SPL .

See also JMS post above

They paid some bonuses (eg Champions League qualification) through the Trusts as well, which even the majority verdict is admitting were emoluments. Some of the detail talks about a Rangers official moaning that Barry Ferguson ("Mr Ipswich") was a greedy barsteward, demanding £25K in a trust payment for beating some Cypriot team.

[CropleyWasGod]

They paid some bonuses (eg Champions League qualification) through the Trusts as well, which even the majority verdict is admitting were emoluments. Some of the detail talks about a Rangers official moaning about how Barry Ferguson ("Mr Ipswich") is such a greedy barsteward and demanding £25K in a trust payment for beating some Cypriot team.

Is that for sure? Interesting if so.....did you pick that up somewhere in the 145 pages, or elsewhere?

Maybe you'll know this.... somewhere amongst all the Reservoir Dogs nom-de-plumes, they almost let slip someone's identity. They talked about Mr "whatever colour", and then "his son". Any clues who that might be?

[johnbc70]

I know they were not 'loans', the club when making the payment knew it was not a 'loan', the players when receiving the cash knew it was not a 'loan'. So pretty much everybody knew it was not a loan in the sense that everyone else recognises a loan i.e you take the cash and pay it back over an agreed period of time with a rate of interest.

Legally I am guessing it was classed as a loan, hence the finding in their favor. But where does someone take a look at this shambles and say "hang on a minute" and look at what was actually happening?

Seems like a total shambles. I am going to ask my employer to stop paying me my monthly salary now and just ask for a loan instead. Save a fortune on income tax and NI.

[CropleyWasGod]

I know they were not 'loans', the club when making the payment knew it was not a 'loan', the players when receiving the cash knew it was not a 'loan'. So pretty much everybody knew it was not a loan in the sense that everyone else recognises a loan i.e you take the cash and pay it back over an agreed period of time with a rate of interest.

Legally I am guessing it was classed as a loan, hence the finding in their favor. But where does someone take a look at this shambles and say "hang on a minute" and look at what was actually happening?

Seems like a total shambles. I am going to ask my employer to stop paying me my monthly salary now and just ask for a loan instead. Save a fortune on income tax and NI.

The practice has been stopped now.

BTW, the reason it "worked" was because Trusts were used. It wouldn't work between employers and employees.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Is that for sure? Interesting if so.....did you pick that up somewhere in the 145 pages, or elsewhere?

Maybe you'll know this.... somewhere amongst all the Reservoir Dogs nom-de-plumes, they almost let slip someone's identity. They talked about Mr "whatever colour", and then "his son". Any clues who that might be?

Page 85 leaves it in little doubt. It refers to "Mr Ipswich" as being Rangers captain during the 2005/06 season, which was Ferguson (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/aug/24/championsleague.rangers). "Mr Violet" is also referred to as the manager, which was McLeish.

From reading the findings, I would be amazed if HMRC don't appeal to the second tier tribunal. The dissenting opinion goes into far more detail about the payments and their nature. I think it's significant that the majority verdict comes from two qualified solicitors, whereas the dissenting opinion comes from a tax professional (CTA qualified). The two judges from a legal background have (partially) accepted the legalistic argument that these payments were loans and therefore not taxable, whereas the judge from the tax background has seen through the legal form.

ps "Mr Purple" is Neil McCann. Page 95 talks about Mr Purple being sold for £1.75M on 5 August 2003, which was the date McCann was sold to Southampton (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/3116861.stm). McCann received £500,000 in a trust payment relating to his departure.

[CropleyWasGod]

Page 85 leaves it in little doubt. It refers to "Mr Ipswich" as being Rangers captain during the 2005/06 season, which was Ferguson (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/aug/24/championsleague.rangers). "Mr Violet" is also referred to as the manager, which was McLeish.

If I'm reading that correctly, though, that was based on Mr. Scarlet's recollection of events. The judgement goes on to doubt Scarlet's reliability as a witness.

I find this the most compromising account to Mr Scarlet’s own credibility as a witness.

So... Bazza could just say.... he wiz lyin' aboot the 25 grand. The judge says so.

Or have I read it wrongly?

However, reading on a few pages:-

In the end, only 9 out of 29 players received their UEFA bonus through the trust arrangements, with some
new sub-trusts being created for this occasion.

Now that does suggest remuneration, eh no??

I agree with you about the appeal, especially given the dissenting voice and the fact that there are more cases pending, IIRC. The only thing that may stop it is cost.

[Part/Time Supporter]

"Mr Evesham" (page 103 onwards) is Stefan Klos. Signed for Rangers in 1998, left them during the 2006/07 season - findings says that Evesham signed in 1998, spent "eight and half years with Rangers", was injured during the later part of his time there (Klos broke his leg during the 2004/05 season) and the initial negotiating figures are in "DM" (German Marks). The findings note that Rangers claimed insurance on the full amount paid to Klos, including the "loans", while he was injured.