Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[hibbypostie]

According to Wiki (yeh I know!), he joined Hibs in July 1994 as a coach. He was born in July 53 so that would make him 41 when he came to us


I sure he played in the 0-7 game

[SuperAllyMcleod]

I sure he played in the 0-7 game

He did, missed a sitter at 0:0

[The_Sauz]

I think Douglas Park was also a coach :greengrin

He was also a big fan of the "Park the bus" tactic..............:offski:









































:greengrin

[Kato]

I sure he played in the 0-7 game

His Hearts debut.

[Biggie]

His Hearts debut. :tee hee:

[WhileTheChief..]

Sectarianism is the backbone of their club and, if it was ever eradicated, they would fold. Same with Celtic, to a slightly less extent.

Nonsense. They might lose a few fans of the Vanguard Bears variety but they'd still have a far bigger support than all the other clubs.

[WhileTheChief..]

It is time for all good men and women to keep voicing their concerns and anger on forums such as this. The Scottish Media

are scared of the backlash from the vile people who want to maintain vile sectarianism and religious hatred within football

here. Jim Spence and Graham Spiers are to be applauded not sacrificed by their bosses. Keep up the good work in trying to

rid our game of the evil sectarianism.

Who are these vile people you refer to? Other than some of their fans I don't see anyone else wanting to maintain sectarianism in our game?

[Smartie]

I think Rangers' first 11 is probably more effective than ours. They managed to deal with Cappielow fairly comfortably and I don't see anyone giving them much of a game at Ibrox for the rest of this season, whereas i can see us still toiling from time to time and dropping silly points in games we dominate.

It's not just about the first 11 though and their squad is paper thin. You could take Stokes and Cummings out of our team and we'd still have Keatings, Dagnall and Boyle to choose from. Where are they if they lose Waghorn and Miller? Our second 11 would absolutely wipe the floor with theirs and so whilst I think their best team is more likely to win games in the Championship than ours (note I haven't at any point said they are better) they will have to be incredibly lucky with injuries and suspensions to get a stronger team than ours out every week.

They're also a million miles away from being ready for the top league - we're far more prepared to win points off Premier League teams than they are.

[Smartie]

Nonsense. They might lose a few fans of the Vanguard Bears variety but they'd still have a far bigger support than all the other clubs.

I also know a good few "decent" Rangers supporters who won't be taking their kids to Ibrox or bringing them up as Rangers fans due to the nonsense.

If they eradicate the sizeable ugly element they open the floodgates to the decent fans.

[Ozyhibby]

https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2016/01/28/critical-thinking/


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[Moulin Yarns]

Park (of the buses) allegedly threatened the Herald with a withdrawal of advertising revenue

[CropleyWasGod]

Park (of the buses) allegedly threatened the Herald with a withdrawal of advertising revenue

Ozy, as ever, had the scoop. Post 34123.

[Smartie]

Park (of the buses) allegedly threatened the Herald with a withdrawal of advertising revenue

Shame they capitulated because that could have been a brilliant story for them to cover themselves…..

[Moulin Yarns]

Back to The Rangers, has anybody got a copy of the original Graham Spiers article from 30th December?

Found it :greengrin

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/

“My heart sank as I watched last week’s Channel Four News item about critics of Rangers FC coming in for threats or menacing intimidation from either fans or rogue elements with links to the Ibrox club. I’ve been there, had the treatment, received such threats myself. It was all highly familiar, even if I’ve never written publicly about it until now.
One of Channel 4’s interviewees was Gary Allan, the Scottish QC, who said that, after his involvement with an SFA panel which punished Rangers for bringing the game into disrepute, Strathclyde Police had summoned him to an urgent meeting due to threats being made against him. Allan spoke of the subsequent threats to himself and his family. It was obvious he regretted ever getting embroiled with Rangers in the first place.
My own story of covering Rangers – and being critical of certain aspects of the club – has incurred similar menace. It all started around 10 years ago when, as chief sports writer on The Herald, I began focusing on the bigoted singing issue over which the club was then wearyingly engaged with its supporters. After a number of pieces highlighting this blight upon Rangers, the threatening letters, the phone calls and the internet poison on Rangers fans’ sites all began to build in momentum against me.
Round about 2005, my then editor at The Herald phoned me and said: “How do you feel about this? We have a concern about it at the paper. We think we should speak to the police about your security.” I was pretty nonplussed to hear this, not least because, in truth, I had never been that bothered by it. “I don’t think we need to go that far,” I told my editor. “I really don’t think it’s that bad, is it?” In the end, we agreed to let it lie in terms of police involvement.
Yet the threats towards me grew. It seemed to me they came from a kind of rogue, angry underclass which appeared to have attached itself to the club. Any sweeping generalisations about Rangers fans, however, were both futile and inaccurate. The fact was, whenever I engaged in pub debate with Rangers fans – which was often – the conversation was normally civil, if combative.
But then came another incident, when the press bus stopped 200 yards short of the Villarreal stadium on a Champions League night with Rangers in 2006. I got fairly bumped around and was spat at as we made our way through the Rangers throngs to the arena. That was the night when the Villarreal team bus got pelted and suffered a smashed window, and just months before Uefa censured Rangers for bigoted chanting. On the latter, a few Rangers fans on the fervid message-boards blamed me for somehow “shopping” the club to Uefa via my critical editorials on the subject.
Fast forward to 2011, by which time we’d had the disturbances in Manchester involving Rangers fans, and their offensive singing at the 2011 League Cup final, both of which caused the club further headaches. Again, I’d written critically on these topics, which only kept the poison flowing in my direction.
Then, on the morning of April 21 last year (2011), colleagues began texting me about a fresh alarm. The Daily Record had published a picture of me with an accompanying story, claiming I was one of a number of people being targeted by cranks, because of my criticisms of Rangers. That particular day I had other family concerns on my mind, and I more or less ignored the Record story. But the next day I received a phone call.
“Graham, this is Detective Chief Superintendent [xxxxxxx] from the counter-terrorism unit at Strathclyde Police…”
I was incredulous. “You’re kidding me, right?” I said. “You are kidding me on, surely?”
“No, I’m not,” he said. “And we think we need to come and see you at home pretty soon.”
I duly spent two hours listening to police security specialists explaining to me that they had information about threats being made against me, and that these threats were linked to my writing and broadcasting about Rangers. And so it has gone on, the threat of intimidation rising and falling in line with my writing about this football club.
The context, I believe, is this. Rangers FC have had supporter issues to deal with over the years. Many of these issues have seen great improvement in fans’ behaviour. But among the Rangers hard core there is resentment. Their faux Protestant culture around Rangers is something many Ibrox fans want to bin but the “traditionalists” want to preserve.
It often seems to me that a modern, liberal Scotland has abandoned this section of the Rangers support; left them behind, and even actually mocked them for their out-dated beliefs. Whatever the context, in my own experience, Channel 4 got it right. You sometimes mix with Rangers at your peril.”

[Jack]

I also know a good few "decent" Rangers supporters who won't be taking their kids to Ibrox or bringing them up as Rangers fans due to the nonsense.

If they eradicate the sizeable ugly element they open the floodgates to the decent fans.

I agree.

Of the sevcovians I know most have become sickened than ever with the rise of the bigotry as well as all the off pitch shenanigans.

[cabbageandribs1875]

noticed this article the other day in the herald, not dated but the ban was taking place for the bigots v Livi game(4-1) few weeks back

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14218535.BBC_launch_new_Ibrox_boycott_as_Rangers_b an_sports_reporter_in_coverage_row/?ref=ar

THE BBC have launched a fresh Ibrox boycott after Rangers banned the public service broadcaster's senior sports reporter Chris McLaughlin from the club ground.
The BBC dropped a nearly month-long boycott of Ibrox in August after Rangers agreed to drop a ban on the reporter following talks.
But it has emerged that the BBC have reimposed the boycott after the broadcaster was told two weeks ago that the reporter was again not welcome at Ibrox.


Some fans protested to the BBC and to the communications regulator Ofcom saying the BBC actions were indicative of what they felt was a continued bias against the club.


BBC sources then insisted there would be no staff member going to Ibrox until the ban on Mr McLaughlin is lifted and they would rely on agency staff.

is the BBC ban still in effect ? :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Spiers original article retrieved from Google's cache:


Spiers on Sport: Rangers must uphold progress by resisting return of 'the old songs'

Stewart Robertson, Rangers' managing director, has so far not been convincing on the issue of ridding Ibrox of sectarian singing

Herald Scotland:
Spiers on Sport, Graham Spiers / / Sport

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93 comments
Rangers FC, in whatever guise you recognise it in the post-2012 period, has made considerable strides to eradicate bigotry around the club.

Whereas as recently as 10 years ago – and it really was excruciating – Ibrox Stadium resounded to sectarian chants, in more recent times the atmosphere has been cleaned up, with erstwhile dodgy songs adored by many Rangers fans being put on the back burner.

It would be totally wrong to ignore this progress at Rangers. I remember the summer of 2006 when Paul Le Guen arrived at the club. Ibrox was mired in “fans issues” and bigotry, and Le Guen was utterly perplexed by it all.

One of the first things the Frenchman had to do was take part in initiatives set up by the club, begging Rangers fans to stop singing these songs.

To a large degree, many of these measures worked. Rangers made significant progress in quelling its bigoted sentiment, and the club made great strides in the years ahead. Ibrox, I believe, in time became a much healthier place in which to watch your football.

The Billy Boys, an anti-Catholic anthem beloved of Ibrox, was put on mute. Indeed, for a number of seasons it seemed to disappear completely, at least at Rangers home games. This, surely, was progress.

But few of us had any illusions about it. More than once I’ve been told that, if you venture onto a Glasgow subway train with travelling Rangers fans, their old anthems can be given quite an airing. The old songs appeared to have survived and thrived, being sung with gusto whenever a more guarded context will allow.

And then there were these occasional public eruptions of it, such as at the infamous 2011 League Cup final at Hampden, when some of the choral stuff exhumed by the Rangers support that day took us back to a pre-Enlightenment period.

It is staggering, in this day and age, to hear stuff about Catholics, Fenians, Taigs, the Pope and the rest emanating from thousands of people. It is as baffling as it is sad.

Now this Rangers FC board – and I am not convinced by their mettle on this issue – faces a fresh test.

At Ibrox this week we heard a further eruption of what might euphemistically be called the “old songs”. It was another example, amid all the progress that Rangers have made, of the cap being blown off, and of some Rangers fans getting back into the party mood in the way they like best.

Social media was very interesting following that Rangers-Hibs game on Monday afternoon. Setting aside some preposterous stuff from the Rangers Supporters Trust, who were in full denial mode, there were a number of Rangers fans openly lamenting the re-emergence of these songs, and condemning them.

I have said this often enough: there is a new generation of Rangers supporter that the club should nurture and cultivate. They want nothing to do with this old obsession with “fenians”. They are modern, decent, football-loving fans who love the game and love their club.

Rangers need to embrace these supporters, and leave to one side those others – including some official fan groups – who said after the Hibs match (I paraphrase): “Well done, lads, terrific stuff, great atmosphere, great to hear the old songs…”

Will this Rangers FC board, as has been required in previous years, step up to the plate? I hope so, though I doubt it.

I write as a journalist who has been banned by Rangers. None of that aspect bothers me. Football clubs sometimes do these daft things. I want nothing but the best for Rangers as they ascend towards the Ladbrokes Premiership. Indeed, I want Rangers challenging for the Premiership title as quickly as their football will allow.

But when Stewart Robertson, the new Rangers managing-director, informed me of my press ban, I would say his demeanour was that of someone somewhat embarrassed by the action being taken.

I do not believe Mr Robertson is anything other than a decent man – but his pitiful reasons for my ban, which included my past criticisms of Rangers over bigotry issues, sounded distinctly unconvincing.

It also doesn’t help right now that at least one member of the current Rangers board thinks that The Billy Boys is a tremendous song. This being the case, the club may well go backwards, not forwards.

On their dreaded songs issue, I hope this Rangers board go forward, not backward. I hope they are pro-active, not passive. I hope they acknowledge a potential threat, and don’t lapse into denial.

But, frankly, I’ll believe it when I see it. Banning writers who write about the issue is an ominous start.

It is now 39 years since Willie Waddell, then the Rangers general-manager, made an on-field public declaration which signalled an end to Rangers FC’s old anti-Catholic policy. I was there that day at Ibrox as a 12-year-old kid, though the fuss then was beyond me.

It remains my belief that, taking that day as a starting point, it will take 50 years for Rangers to fully flush out its bigoted baggage. There are pitfalls along that long road, as we witnessed again this week, but at least the journey is being taken.

There has been real progress made at Rangers in recent years. Mr Robertson and your ilk, please don’t slow it down.

[chinaman]

I also know a good few "decent" Rangers supporters who won't be taking their kids to Ibrox or bringing them up as Rangers fans due to the nonsense.

If they eradicate the sizeable ugly element they open the floodgates to the decent fans."decent huns"... all of them are bigoted low life wannabe "english/ulster bacteria.
Nothing will ever change the mindset of the huge majority of there backward-thinking, banjo-playing bullies LET THE HORRIBLE CLUB DIE as painfully as possible.

[Jim44]

Nonsense. They might lose a few fans of the Vanguard Bears variety but they'd still have a far bigger support than all the other clubs.

Remove the sectarianism and you'll remove much more than a few bigoted idiots.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Spiers original article retrieved from Google's cache:



"It also doesn’t help right now that at least one member of the current Rangers board thinks that The Billy Boys is a tremendous song". This being the case, the club may well go backwards, not forwards.



absolutely astonishing....vile sectarian filth from the top downwards

[JeMeSouviens]

I actually think a lot of Huns are bigots because they're Huns rather than Huns because they're bigots. There were a couple of Huns at school with me who got into the whole ftp scene despite having no exposure to it in their youth. Remove bigotry from Ibrox and it would be a significant step towards removing it from Scottish society as a whole.

Both the Charlie Green and Lying King Sevco boards have shamefully played the "orange card" as a means of encouraging circle-the-wagons defiance among the Huns and as a distraction from how ***** they are for the most part.

[cabbageandribs1875]

"decent huns"... all of them are bigoted low life wannabe "english/ulster bacteria.
Nothing will ever change the mindset of the huge majority of there backward-thinking, banjo-playing bullies LET THE HORRIBLE CLUB DIE as painfully as possible.


only the majority of them are...:wink:

[Dashing Bob S]

"decent huns"... all of them are bigoted low life wannabe "english/ulster bacteria.
Nothing will ever change the mindset of the huge majority of there backward-thinking, banjo-playing bullies LET THE HORRIBLE CLUB DIE as painfully as possible.

The decent Huns I know are invariably all Glaswegians, who simply support the club for for family reasons. In my experience the bigots tend to be from one horse **** pits in Ayrshire, Lanarkshire and Ulster, and weirdo glory hunters from Perth and Dunfries who don't fit in with their host communities, and get their jollies singing 'the songs'.

[Moulin Yarns]

Spiers original article retrieved from Google's cache:

Cheers for that. Astonishing.

[Moulin Yarns]

The decent Huns I know are invariably all Glaswegians, who simply support the club for for family reasons. In my experience the bigots tend to be from one horse **** pits in Ayrshire, Lanarkshire and Ulster, and weirdo glory hunters from Perth and Dunfries who don't fit in with their host communities, and get their jollies singing 'the songs'.

Actually, not all of the Ayrshire ones are bigots. I am friends with a Rangers family from the Kilmarnock area, though they now live in the same one horse town as I do now and they really are nice folks. Even their 4 kids are OK :wink:

[ancient hibee]

The decent Huns I know are invariably all Glaswegians, who simply support the club for for family reasons. In my experience the bigots tend to be from one horse **** pits in Ayrshire, Lanarkshire and Ulster, and weirdo glory hunters from Perth and Dunfries who don't fit in with their host communities, and get their jollies singing 'the songs'.

Spot on.You have to ask how does somebody from outwith Glasgow choose which of the OF to follow(and follow).

[southsider]

At the turn of the year I wrote to the SFA about the personal abuse our manager, Alan Stubbs, suffered from at our recent game at Ibrox. No-one I pointed out, should be made to endue that level of abuse whilst at his work. Train drivers would walk out, the buses would stop running and schools would close if other employee's had to suffer the abuse Mr Stubbs did. Quite rightly so. The next time it happens our team just walk off the park. Black players suffering racist abuse have done it and sectarian abuse is no less vile. The SFA have yet to reply. Says it all really.

[Kato]

:tee hee:

I've seen the papers from the lead up to the game. He predicted a low scoring Hearts victory.....:cb:rolleyes:

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

There is nothing in Spiers article that should be apologised for, absolutely nothing. Shameful.
I'll never buy a copy of the Herald again. Saying that, I've never bought a copy in my puff so my protest might not hurt them too much

[Ozyhibby]

There is nothing in Spiers article that should be apologised for, absolutely nothing. Shameful.
I'll never buy a copy of the Herald again. Saying that, I've never bought a copy in my puff so my protest might not hurt them too much

It's getting to the stage where none of our papers are worth buying.
To give up its editorial independence to its advertisers makes the Herald no better than the Metro.



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[JimBHibees]

There is nothing in Spiers article that should be apologised for, absolutely nothing. Shameful.
I'll never buy a copy of the Herald again. Saying that, I've never bought a copy in my puff so my protest might not hurt them too much

I am assuming Rangers have disputed the Rangers director thought it was a tremendous song line and asked for proof on that. Difficult then to defend if the person isnt then identified and proof provided.

[southsider]

It's getting to the stage where none of our papers are worth buying.
To give up its editorial independence to its advertisers makes the Herald no better than the Metro.



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Strange that a paper with a pro yes/SNP editorial should pander to a pro-unionist agenda. Perhaps it was the threat of lost advertising revenue from Parks that did it. Shameful. S o S on Sunday from now on.

[Spike Mandela]

Strange that a paper with a pro yes/SNP editorial should pander to a pro-unionist agenda. Perhaps it was the threat of lost advertising revenue from Parks that did it. Shameful. S o S on Sunday from now on.

It doesn't have a pro independence agenda, quite the opposite in fact. You are perhaps thinking of it's sister paper the Sunday Herald. Seperate editorial altogether.

[southsider]

It doesn't have a pro independence agenda, quite the opposite in fact. You are perhaps thinking of it's sister paper the Sunday Herald. Seperate editorial altogether.
Yes, most likely as I only ever bought it on a Sunday. But I will stop buying.

[Ozyhibby]

http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/spiers-apology-heralds-in-dark-days-for-scottish-journalism/


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[Moulin Yarns]

Yes, most likely as I only ever bought it on a Sunday. But I will stop buying.

Hang on, let me get this right. You are stopping buying the Sunday Herald on the strength of the Herald capitulation to pressure from the Rangers, even though they are separate editorial beasts and their main connection is they share an owner and building they occupy.

jings, crivens, help ma boab!! Whatever next? You will never read another book by Christopher Brookmyre because he supports St Mirren.

[Ozyhibby]

https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/2016/01/28/without-fear-or-favour/


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[Spike Mandela]

Billy King has signed on loan for Sevco....no seriously!

[Ozyhibby]

Hang on, let me get this right. You are stopping buying the Sunday Herald on the strength of the Herald capitulation to pressure from the Rangers, even though they are separate editorial beasts and their main connection is they share an owner and building they occupy.

jings, crivens, help ma boab!! Whatever next? You will never read another book by Christopher Brookmyre because he supports St Mirren.

If Speirs had wrote in the Sunday Herald the same decision would have been taken. It was a business decision by the company to overrule the editor.


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[Baldy Foghorn]

Billy King has signed on loan for Sevco....no seriously!

King Billy surely?:dunno:

[CallumLaidlaw]

Billy King has signed on loan for Sevco....no seriously!

Written in the stars that one!!! :rolleyes:

[kaimendhibs]

Strange hearts let him go. He is a regular starter in the first team

[marinello59]

Hang on, let me get this right. You are stopping buying the Sunday Herald on the strength of the Herald capitulation to pressure from the Rangers, even though they are separate editorial beasts and their main connection is they share an owner and building they occupy.

jings, crivens, help ma boab!! Whatever next? You will never read another book by Christopher Brookmyre because he supports St Mirren.

It was the newspaper owners that capitulated, not the editors. It wouldn't have mattered which title Spiers wrote for, the same thing would have happened.

[greenginger]

Strange hearts let him go. He is a regular starter in the first team


Budge tells Leveine to get the wage bill down to cover the extra security costs.

Budge tells fans the bampots are costing the club , get them sorted.

[doddsy]

The decent Huns I know are invariably all Glaswegians, who simply support the club for for family reasons. In my experience the bigots tend to be from one horse **** pits in Ayrshire, Lanarkshire and Ulster, and weirdo glory hunters from Perth and Dunfries who don't fit in with their host communities, and get their jollies singing 'the songs'.

I agree with you bud. It's simply not fair or helpful to taint all of the Rangers fans as bigots or slag them all of. We are a far more intelligent community than simple branding all of them with the same brush. We can't see this from an inward looking viewpoint. We must remember that it sometimes takes generations to change attitudes. But change it must, so keep up the good work of highlighting it at every opportunity and it will change due to forums like this and others.

There are plenty of decent Rangers fans but plenty of vile bigoted bampots as well unfortunately. Can't wait for Saturday.
Got my ticket today. If you're looking in Ben, thank you so very much bud!
:aok: :flag:

[Iain G]

Even their 4 kids are OK :wink:

William, Bill, Billie and Wilhelmina? :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

https://robbiedinwoodie.wordpress.com/2016/01/28/whos-next-in-line-for-the-bully-boys/


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[Prof. Shaggy]

If Speirs had wrote in the Sunday Herald the same decision would have been taken. It was a business decision by the company to overrule the editor.


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If the editor has remained in his job, he has not been over-ruled.

[Deansy]

Billy King has signed on loan for Sevco....no seriously!

Just the 'Charity Thieves FC' helping out their big-brothers in times of their dire, desparate need !!

[jacomo]

Both the Charlie Green and Lying King Sevco boards have shamefully played the "orange card" as a means of encouraging circle-the-wagons defiance among the Huns and as a distraction from how ***** they are for the most part.

:agree:

And Swally 'I demand to know who these people are' McCoist.

They exploit the support's base instincts when it suits them.

[Deansy]

I agree with you bud. It's simply not fair or helpful to taint all of the Rangers fans as bigots or slag them all of. We are a far more intelligent community than simple branding all of them with the same brush. We can't see this from an inward looking viewpoint. We must remember that it sometimes takes generations to change attitudes. But change it must, so keep up the good work of highlighting it at every opportunity and it will change due to forums like this and others.

There are plenty of decent Rangers fans but plenty of vile bigoted bampots as well unfortunately. Can't wait for Saturday.
Got my ticket today. If you're looking in Ben, thank you so very much bud!
:aok: :flag:

I kind of agree but, IMHO, the Hun-support is 80-20 in favour of the bigoted-bampot - although that IS an improvement from the 100% of years ago.

[greenginger]

James Doleman in town for the Chuckie v RIFC expenses appeal.


https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman?lang=en

[magpie1892]

If the editor has remained in his job, he has not been over-ruled.

How so?

[Spike Mandela]

James Doleman in town for the Chuckie v RIFC expenses appeal.


https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman?lang=en

Rangers appear to be on a winning streak in court these days as well.

[Ozyhibby]

Rangers appear to be on a winning streak in court these days as well.

I'm not expecting that to change today either. From what I remember of the first hearing, there was a lot of old club/ new club chat but not much substance from Greens lawyer although the substantial bit could have been heard privately. Hopefully I'm pleasantly surprised.


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[Benny Brazil]

Rangers appear to be on a winning streak in court these days as well.

Yep - all the predictions of their demise seem to have no foundation - they keep coming up smelling of roses.

[Spike Mandela]

Yep - all the predictions of their demise seem to have no foundation - they keep coming up smelling of roses.

Hardly 'no foundation' and roses. More like clinging on like a rancid corpse.:wink:

[MrSmith]

I may be missing something in this old/new/old/sevco/sevco588/the Rangers circus but if the entity now - known as The Rangers - was the same as when chucky left? Surely his contract is legal and binding in terms of court expenses and related finance?

[greenginger]

Green has had to cough up £ 50,000 up front to get this appeal heard so he must think he has a case.

The way I see it is , that if the Judges say he can't be funded, they are saying they consider him guilty of the charges before the case even starts.

[Spike Mandela]

Green has had to cough up £ 50,000 up front to get this appeal heard so he must think he has a case.

The way I see it is , that if the Judges say he can't be funded, they are saying they consider him guilty of the charges before the case even starts.

Establishment looking after the establishment club?

[CropleyWasGod]

James Doleman in town for the Chuckie v RIFC expenses appeal.


https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman?lang=en

This is the big one, IMO.

If RIFC lose................... :cb

[Ozyhibby]

Made it through the storm and now at the Court of Session for Charles Green v Rangers International Football Club.

1/2


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[Ozyhibby]

Green is appealing the ruling by Lord Doherty that Rangers are not liable for his legal bills in the current fraud proceedings against him.


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[Ozyhibby]

Due to ongoing fraud proceedings I expect there will be restrictions on what we can report but will post out what I can


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[grunt]

The way I see it is , that if the Judges say he can't be funded, they are saying they consider him guilty of the charges before the case even starts.I don't see it quite that way. It seems to be a technical legal discussion about how Green's contract terms should be interpreted. Doesn't really go anywhere near the substance of the wider fraud allegations IMO. But I could well be wrong.

[CropleyWasGod]

Green has had to cough up £ 50,000 up front to get this appeal heard so he must think he has a case.

The way I see it is , that if the Judges say he can't be funded, they are saying they consider him guilty of the charges before the case even starts.

Think it's more to prove that he can pay the costs of THIS case if it goes against him. Otherwise, it would be a frivolous appeal.

Don't think the fraud case will/should have any impact on the decision made in this one.

[Ozyhibby]

Lord Doherty has allowed us to tweet from court as long as we stay within reporting restrictions.


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[Ozyhibby]

Charles Green is represented by Alan Dewar QC and Jonathan Brown


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[Ozyhibby]

Rangers are represented by Mr Walker. company secretary James Blair is also in attendance.


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[Ozyhibby]

One unusual factor in today's case is that Lord Doherty "sealed" his original judgment so we don't know the grounds of his decision


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[Ozyhibby]

The 3 judges enter court and proceedings commence


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[Ozyhibby]

Alan Dewar QC for Green rises to open the hearing.


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar asks for the "reclaiming motion to be upheld.


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar says case rests on how the court defines the phrase "Rangers football club"


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar said the only possible way to interpret the phrase "Rangers football club" is as the company formally known as " Sevco Scotland."


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[grunt]

Dewar says case rests on how the court defines the phrase "Rangers football club"


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Haha!

[Ozyhibby]

Dewar invites the court to consider Lord Doherty ruled that the definition of "Rangers football club" was ambiguous


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar mentions appeal court ruled in favour of former News of the World editor Andy Coulson in a similar case


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar reminds court that previous judge called notion that Rangers should pay Greens legal bills in a criminal matter "absurd"


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[Bostonhibby]

Dewar says case rests on how the court defines the phrase "Rangers football club"


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No swearing in court sadly it's contempt!

[Ozyhibby]

Dewar now referring to criminal indictment against Charles Green, notes they allege a conspiracy pre-dating the purchase of RFC assets


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar argues that previous judge misunderstood nature of conspiracy charges against Green


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar says previous judge "showed no appreciation" that future jury could convict Green of criminal acts but acquit him of conspiracy


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar says Green bought " the business and assets of the Rangers entity" then acted on behalf of, and for the benefit of the shareholders


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar says he has spoken to Charles Green and there may be a 'third indictment" in the criminal trial.


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar says Green criminal trial is "some way off."


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[Ozyhibby]

Judge asks Dewar "why is it so important that Rangers football club is Sevco Scotland rather than an institution going back 100 years?"


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar says Green is only facing charges through his role as chief executive of Rangers football club


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[Ozyhibby]

Judge says to Dewar "that's not an answer to my question"


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar replies that Green was chairman of Sevco Scotland before being CEO of "the entity now known as Rangers Football club"


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar says if court accepts RFC is Sevco Scotland Green was in "continuous employment" from June 2012


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar argues the club only exists legally "in some amorphous way" and only the "corporate entity" matters to the court


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[Ozyhibby]

On a side note, if you had picked the word "entity" for your court drinking game you would be very drunk by now

:)


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[Deansy]

One unusual factor in today's case is that Lord Doherty "sealed" his original judgment so we don't know the grounds of his decision


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So, along with the infamous '5 way agreement', the Hun are involved in yet another 'Secret/private arrangement' - wonder if there's any other football club in the world with similar history (or need) ??

[Ozyhibby]

Moving into issues covered by reporting restrictions.


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[Ozyhibby]

So, along with the infamous '5 way agreement', the Hun are involved in yet another 'Secret/private arrangement' - wonder if there's any other football club in the world with similar history (or need) ??

That is more to do with Greens right to a fair trial in the upcoming fraud case.


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[greenginger]

Dewar says if court accepts RFC is Sevco Scotland Green was in "continuous employment" from June 2012


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How could they consider anything else ?

They have the same Company Number. Also Sevco changed its name to The Rangers Football Club in July 2012. So June or July what's the difference.

[Ozyhibby]

https://rangerssupportersloyal.wordpress.com/2016/01/28/new-club-blues/


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[Ozyhibby]

How could they consider anything else ?

They have the same Company Number. Also Sevco changed its name to The Rangers Football Club in July 2012. So June or July what's the difference.

Think some of the charges relate to the purchase of the assets so Green has to prove he was director of Sevco Scotland at the time


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar now moving on to Appeal court judgment in Andy Coulson case


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[Ozyhibby]

Judge asks if a hypothetical was embezzling funds from a company would that be seen as having occurred "in the course of his duties"?


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar says his case is very different as Green was acting "in the interests of the company" and not just for personal gain


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[grunt]

Blogger and columnist Angela Haggerty sacked by the Herald for supporting Spiers?

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/01/29/scottish-media-failure-exposed/

[JeMeSouviens]

Think some of the charges relate to the purchase of the assets so Green has to prove he was director of Sevco Scotland at the time


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Green has a clause in his severance agreement saying the club will pay his legal bills for actions related to his time as "chief executive of Rangers Football Club". The New Huns are trying to argue this doesn't apply to his time as Chief Exec of the company when it was called Sevco Scotland but only to the time after it changed its name.

[Ozyhibby]

Dewar says again Green would "never have been in this position if he had never been CEO of the two entities."


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[Ozyhibby]

Much shaking of heads on the Rangers side of the court at that last comment.


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar says a legal idemnity would be pointless unless it also covered criminal charges.


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar said that when agreement signed "it was known that legal proceedings were likely" asks court "what was in the mind of the parties"?


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar says there is more to running a football club than putting a team on a pitch "it's a multi-million pound business"


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[Ozyhibby]

"Football is a business unlike any other" Dewar says "but still needs a successful corporate entity" to raise funds etc,


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[greenginger]

Green has a clause in his severance agreement saying the club will pay his legal bills for actions related to his time as "chief executive of Rangers Football Club". The New Huns are trying to argue this doesn't apply to his time as Chief Exec of the company when it was called Sevco Scotland but only to the time after it changed its name.


Sevco Scotland was only Sevco Scotland from 29/5/2012 until 31/7/2012.

Besides when does a contract with a company ever list all the names that the company has ever had.

[Ozyhibby]

Charles Green was "The face of the entity" his counsel tells the court


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[Peevemor]

Green has a clause in his severance agreement saying the club will pay his legal bills for actions related to his time as "chief executive of Rangers Football Club". The New Huns are trying to argue this doesn't apply to his time as Chief Exec of the company when it was called Sevco Scotland but only to the time after it changed its name.

Is it not about time they decided whether they're the same club or not?

[Ozyhibby]

Dewar notes appeal court ruled in favour of News International paying Andy Coulson's legal bills during his criminal trial for phone hacking


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[Ozyhibby]

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/01/29/scottish-media-failure-exposed/


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[Geo_1875]

Is it not about time they decided whether they're the same club or not?

This could be embarrassing for New Hun having to argue in court that they are nothing to do with Old Hun.

[Ozyhibby]

Dewar notes appeal court ruling in Coulson case made no distinction between civil an criminal cases over legal idemnity clause


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar says there is no moral issue over paying legal bills in a criminal case, adds "The legal aid board does it every day"


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[Ozyhibby]

Judge on Green "He was the chief executive of Rangers football club, the question is, what does that mean?"


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[Ozyhibby]

Court now discussing structure of Rangers group of companies


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[Newry Hibs]

Is it just me, or is this the first of the many cases so far against sevco (by MASH etc) that seem to have a reasonable argument?

[Ozyhibby]

Judge notes Green's indemnity agreement does not mention "associated companies"


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[Ozyhibby]

Is it just me, or is this the first of the many cases so far against sevco (by MASH etc) that seem to have a reasonable argument?

This isn't MASH but this lawyer does appear to be presenting a much better case.


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar " you can only be chairman of an entity that has a legal personality:


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar "No-one knows what the Rangers football club is, but it has no legal personality"


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[Ozyhibby]

Dewar " the Rangers football club does not exist, it is an idea in people's minds, a myth of continuity"


LOL


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[Ozyhibby]

Rangers football club is the "trading arm" of Rangers football club Ltd judge suggests


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[Smartie]

Dewar " the Rangers football club does not exist, it is an idea in people's minds, a myth of continuity"


LOL


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Oooft.


I take it they'll be upping security at the Dewar residence then?

[Ozyhibby]

Dewar notes that the corporate entity is the body recognised by SFA, contrary arguments "exist only on the minds of die hard supporters"


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[DaveSo]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;4563761]Dewar " the Rangers football club does not exist, it is an idea in people's minds, a myth of continuity"


Bang !
Nail hit firmly on the head.

[Brightside]

Dewar notes that the corporate entity is the body recognised by SFA, contrary arguments "exist only on the minds of die hard supporters"


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Who are you tweeting from Ozy?

[Ozyhibby]

Dewar "Sevco Scotland and it alone bought the assets and carried on the business"


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[Ozyhibby]

Who are you tweeting from Ozy?

James Doleman again


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[DaveSo]

Who are you tweeting from Ozy?

James Doleman is tweeting from the Court.

[Ozyhibby]

Counsel for Charles Green ends his submissions, Rangers Advocate will respond after lunch at 1.55


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[Brightside]

Counsel for Charles Green ends his submissions, Rangers Advocate will respond after lunch at 1.55


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Excellent work from Green lawyer. You would think MASH would sign this guy up.

[AndyM_1875]

Blogger and columnist Angela Haggerty sacked by the Sunday Herald for supporting Spiers?

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/01/29/scottish-media-failure-exposed/

This story is way bigger than the court case that's running just now. It's a really worrying development in terms of freedom of the press.

The Herald have been "leant on" and two problematic journalists have been dumped.
Now I am first to admit Haggerty's association with the horrible Phil McGhiollabain is something I find personally distasteful but that does not alter the fact that she is a decent journalist and her Sunday columns were generally well crafted pieces.

This smacks of Rangers flexing their muscles and taking out a journalist who with good reason after many personal attacks from their troglodyte fans, holds them in contempt.

It is one thing journalists being biased to a football club as with the weegie tabloids but it's quite another the directors of a football team exerting influence on a paper's editorial decisions. The fact that one football club can wield this sort of power and influence over a media outlet is something I find deeply troubling.

[Radium]

Oooft.





I take it they'll be upping security at the Dewar residence then?


Take it he doesn't have a column at the Herald 😁

[johnbc70]

What exactly was she sacked for? Surely she has some kind of unfair dismissal case.

[Winston Ingram]

This could be embarrassing for New Hun having to argue in court that they are nothing to do with Old Hun.

It's standard practice. They switch between either depending on the situation. The new Rangers still haven't paid the £250k fine for the 2nd letters involved in the EBT situation because they're a new club.

[marinello59]

This story is way bigger than the court case that's running just now. It's a really worrying development in terms of freedom of the press.

The Herald have been "leant on" and two problematic journalists have been dumped.
Now I am first to admit Haggerty's association with the horrible Phil McGhiollabain is something I find personally distasteful but that does not alter the fact that she is a decent journalist and her Sunday columns were generally well crafted pieces.

This smacks of Rangers flexing their muscles and taking out a journalist who with good reason after many personal attacks from their troglodyte fans, holds them in contempt.

It is one thing journalists being biased to a football club as with the weegie tabloids but it's quite another the directors of a football team exerting influence on a paper's editorial decisions. The fact that one football club can wield this sort of power and influence over a media outlet is something I find deeply troubling.

:agree:

[Prof. Shaggy]

How so?

Responsibility for the content of the paper is integral to the definition of editor. If it's published in the paper it is either endorsed by the editor or he/she resigns (in circumstances like this).

The fact that the editor has not resigned indicates he endorses the apology.

[Treadstone]

Judge asks if a hypothetical was embezzling funds from a company would that be seen as having occurred "in the course of his duties.

That line from the judge was funnier than a whole series of Miranda.

[CropleyWasGod]

What exactly was she sacked for? Surely she has some kind of unfair dismissal case.

Pretty sure she'll be freelance, so there won't be an unfair dismissal case. She may have a claim for breach of contract, though.

[Ozyhibby]

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2016/jan/29/two-columnists-depart-from-glasgow-herald-in-row-with-rangers


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[Ozyhibby]

Apologies, can't copy tweets this afternoon. Sounds like a better day for Green so far though.


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[s.a.m]

https://www.nuj.org.uk/news/herald-condemned-for-axing-of-columnist/

[Bostonhibby]

This could be embarrassing for New Hun having to argue in court that they are nothing to do with Old Hun.

Scotland and its football needs this one on record in a court so it can finally decide what to do with this national embarrassment hiding behind a football club, got to be easier if the old one is formally dead and the relevant history is voided.

[CropleyWasGod]

Walker (for RIFC) says court must distinguish between crimes carried out for personal gain as opposed to seeking an advantage for his employers.

Walker says Green's case is "not even close to the line" of consideration. Notes alleged crimes happened before he became CEO

Lord Malcolm asks if Green was not the "embodiment" of Rangers as CEO.
Walker disagrees

Walker says he disagrees Rangers knew legal action was likely to be taken against Green when agreement signed

Walker says "no-one could have contemplated picking up the tab for this sort of crime."

Charles Green used the same firm of solicitors as Andy Coulson to draw up indemnity agreement court hears

[grunt]

Apologies, can't copy tweets this afternoon. Sounds like a better day for Green so far though.


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Further discussion of the criminal charges by Rangers' QC relating to the scope of the indemnity clause.
Rangers QC says the clause must require more than Green simply to have been in office at club in order to cover him.
Rangers QC argues the clause has not been designed to cover indemnity for criminal acts.
Judge continuing point on Green perhaps being "embodiment" of Rangers. For example, he would represent club at SFA.
Judge "thinking aloud" asks if there is distinction between alleged crimes to benefit company or to benefit individual with regards clause
Judge: Suppose he had tried to bribe an opposition goalkeeper. That wouldn't fall within duties of a chief executive of a football club.
Rangers QC advancing point of distinction between committing a crime for a person's own benefit or for benefit of company in his duties.
Plenty hypothetical back and forth now between judges and Rangers QC over situations where indemnity would or wouldn't apply.
Rangers QC now discussing elements of the criminal allegations.
Rangers QC argues that it is too simplistic simply to look at the alleged crime. It is important to take all conduct into consideration.
Rangers QC now debating the construction of the clause in the compromise agreement.
Court resumes. QC for Rangers now outlining the position of the defendants in the Charles Green legal fees appeal

[CropleyWasGod]

Why would anyone want to take on a liability for someone elses negligence? Walker asks the court.

Walker says that the indemnity clause "does not use clear words"

Walker moves on to an area covered by reporting restrictions.


Over to you, Grunt.... I have a last-minute Tax Return to do :)

[jacomo]

What exactly was she sacked for? Surely she has some kind of unfair dismissal case.

If she was freelance she's f***ed.

[CropleyWasGod]

Scotland and its football needs this one on record in a court so it can finally decide what to do with this national embarrassment hiding behind a football club, got to be easier if the old one is formally dead and the relevant history is voided.

Careful what you wish for. The company that owns Hibs was incorporated in 1905. :cb

[Bostonhibby]

Why would anyone want to take on a liability for someone elses negligence? Walker asks the court.

Walker says that the indemnity clause "does not use clear words"

Walker moves on to an area covered by reporting restrictions.

:confused: Interesting one, this is what businesses normally have professional Indemnity, Fidelity guarantee and Directors & Officers insurance cover for - I suspect in this case no underwriter would touch it, or the the rangers couldn't afford or didn't arrange the cover.

[Bostonhibby]

Careful what you wish for. The company that owns Hibs was incorporated in 1905. :cb

Fully aware, also left not much debt and no sectarian whiff:aok:

[CropleyWasGod]

Fully aware, also left not much debt and no sectarian whiff:aok:

My point being... does that mean we have never won the wee Cup? :cb

[grunt]

Wilson says Rangers football club is a "different entity" from the company.
Wilson now moves on to the nature of Rangers football club
Lord Malcolm notes that the original judgment "does not agonise on the nature of Rangers football club"
Lord Malcolm asks Walker if he is not concentrating too much on cronology rather than principle?

[grunt]

"I don't think this is going to work Mr Walker" judge tells RFC advocate
Walker says the club is the "trading entity"
Judge notes that the agreement says Green was CEO of "Rangers football club" not "Rangers football club ltd"
Lord Malcolm tells Walker "he cant have it both ways" leading to laughter in court
Wilson "in common parlance people do not talk about Rangers football club meaning Sevco Scotland"
Wilson says he does not accept "Rangers football club is a myth" but adds that "it doesnt matter" in this case.
Wilson 'there is a danger in lawyers trying to decide what a football club is" even though "this might he of great interest to the press"

[CropleyWasGod]

"I don't think this is going to work Mr Walker" judge tells RFC advocate
Walker says the club is the "trading entity"
Judge notes that the agreement says Green was CEO of "Rangers football club" not "Rangers football club ltd"
Lord Malcolm tells Walker "he cant have it both ways" leading to laughter in court
Wilson "in common parlance people do not talk about Rangers football club meaning Sevco Scotland"
Wilson says he does not accept "Rangers football club is a myth" but adds that "it doesnt matter" in this case.
Wilson 'there is a danger in lawyers trying to decide what a football club is" even though "this might he of great interest to the press"



Good work, sir.

For those reading, though, these Tweets should be read in reverse order.

[grunt]

Please note these tweet posts need to be read bottom up. (Damn!)

[Deansy]

Blogger and columnist Angela Haggerty sacked by the Herald for supporting Spiers?

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/01/29/scottish-media-failure-exposed/


'It will be interesting to see what the SPFL, the NUJ, Scottish PEN and the wider Scottish football community’s response is to this'


What the SPFL will do about it ??? Aha .... ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha - probably the same as they've done with EVERYTHING since the Hun were caught cheating - SFA !!

[Brightside]

Rangers QC refers to Wikipedia.... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[grunt]

Walker says that when Green was CEO he made a "distinction between club and company" cites Wikipedia, Judge says they can accept that
Lady Dorrian asks "why would they do that?" I can't answer that, Walker says, there are different people in charge now.
Lord Malcolm says Rangers only talked about two different entities 'so they could still say they won the league"

[Ozyhibby]

Just catching up. Does not appear to be going well for Sevco but judges are funny sorts.


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[CropleyWasGod]

Just catching up. Does not appear to be going well for Sevco but judges are funny sorts.


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I agree.

I've ditched the Tax Return. This is great entertainment.

Is it due to be decided today?

[grunt]

Notes- these are now in order so can be read top down. Also I have changed to quoting Grant Russell - he seems to be clearer in his reporting.
----------------------

Rangers QC now moves on to argument over the interpretation of the term "Rangers" in this case

Rangers QC says there has been a consistent approach that reference to Rangers FC is a football entity and not a limited company

Rangers QC says there is a danger over lawyers trying to prove whether a club "exists"

Judge asks, for purposes of clause, whether it matters whether intention was Green was chief exec of "club" or "company"

Judge asks if club was owned by an individual person, you would talk about Rangers FC, not Joe Bloggs

Rangers QC says when people say Rangers, they aren't referring to a limited company

Rangers QC says he would not accept previous submission a club is a "myth"

Rangers QC says claimant position is Green was never chief exec of "club" as it never existed

Rangers QC says neither party claims Green was ever chief exec of the "club"

Judge says Rangers' argument over club v company indemnity coverage "isn't going to work"

Argument from Rangers here is that if "club" didn't exist, how could clause cover time prior to Green being an officer of a company?

Judge asks if Rangers ask if they should "just put a red pen through that part of the clause?"

Rangers QC argues indemnity intention did not define the limited company so that it covered Green in any action taken by a governing body

Rangers QC says Green, while in power, saw clear need to continually draw distinction between club and company

Rangers QC makes reference to ASA decision & LNS

Rangers argument therefore is that the indemnity clause did not make club v company distinction so frequently made in public statements

Judge says club didn't "spring to existence" on date of transfer in June

Rangers QC says it is important what parties who wrote clause defined Rangers as

Rangers QC again highlights the constant club v company distinctions made by club under Green, yet made no such distinction in clause

Rangers QC suggests a proof should be called so those who created clause can explain why they didn't make the distinction as per usual

Rangers QC says if court doesn't want proof, it is clear what those in charge meant

[Ozyhibby]

I agree.

I've ditched the Tax Return. This is great entertainment.

Is it due to be decided today?

Not sure. Last time it took a couple of days.


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[greenlex]

I agree.

I've ditched the Tax Return. This is great entertainment.

Is it due to be decided today?
Bugger I just read that bottom to top and it made no sense.:greengrin

[ancient hibee]

Just to digress-this shows clearly the difficulty in the proposals for "fans" to own "clubs".

[grunt]

Rangers secretary James Blair interrupts QC to urge clarification that compromise agreement signed after Green stopped being chief of TRFCL.
Green, Rangers QC claims, stepped down as "Sevco" chief exec at same time he became RIFC chief exec in December 2013.
Judge hypothetically floats idea clause may not specifically state "limited" because Sevco company existed before it acquired "the club".
Judge says he doesn't like prospect of sending clause definition argument to a proof. Says they should be able to settle it themselves.
Judge says they seek definite confirmation of dates Green became/stopped being director, chief exec etc. To be supplied at later date.
Rangers QC concludes. Green QC requests to be able to make further comment.

[grunt]

Bugger I just read that bottom to top and it made no sense.:greengrin

:greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Bugger I just read that bottom to top and it made no sense.:greengrin

:greengrin

[grunt]

Dewar making submission on area covered by reporting restrictions.

[Ozyhibby]

Court rises, submissions concluded. Decision will come in due course.


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[grunt]

Court rises, submissions concluded. Decision will come in due course.


(Game over for today).

[GreenLake]

I agree.

I've ditched the Tax Return. This is great entertainment.

Is it due to be decided today?

If it makes you feel any less guilty, I have ditched two CPA firms in two years. :greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

My point being... does that mean we have never won the wee Cup? :cb

M'lud, I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.:greengrin

[Weststandwanab]

Why would anyone want to take on a liability for someone elses negligence? Walker asks the court.

Walker says that the indemnity clause "does not use clear words"

Walker moves on to an area covered by reporting restrictions.


Over to you, Grunt.... I have a last-minute Tax Return to do :)

Not your own I hope !

[greenginger]

Rangers secretary James Blair interrupts QC to urge clarification that compromise agreement signed after Green stopped being chief of TRFCL.
Green, Rangers QC claims, stepped down as "Sevco" chief exec at same time he became RIFC chief exec in December 2013.
Judge hypothetically floats idea clause may not specifically state "limited" because Sevco company existed before it acquired "the club".
Judge says he doesn't like prospect of sending clause definition argument to a proof. Says they should be able to settle it themselves.
Judge says they seek definite confirmation of dates Green became/stopped being director, chief exec etc. To be supplied at later date.
Rangers QC concludes. Green QC requests to be able to make further comment.



According to Companies House, Green was chief exec. of Sevco/TRFC from 29/5/2012 until 31/5/2013 .

He was chief exec. of RIFC from 4/12/2012 until 31/5/2013.

Where does this leaving one to join the other, or December 2013 come from.

[Bishop Hibee]

The Herald and Sunday Herald newspaper are worse than The Sun or the Record. The latter do not pretend to be serious newspapers. Total disgrace to drop Spiers and Haggerty due to bluenose pressure.

I'd love Spiers to come out with the name of the Director who said that "The Billy Boys" is a great song. His word against the Hun board though so I doubt he will.

[lapsedhibee]

I have changed to quoting Grant Russell - he seems to be clearer in his reporting.

Though he seems to have missed the bit where Lord Bob Malcolm suggested that the Huns were manipulating the number of entities involved to ensure that they kept their old league titles. Wonder if Grant feared for his job if he tweeted that? :dunno:

[lapsedhibee]

According to Companies House, Green was chief exec. of Sevco/TRFC from 29/5/2012 until 31/5/2013 .

He was chief exec. of RIFC from 4/12/2012 until 31/5/2013.

Where does this leaving one to join the other, or December 2013 come from.

Hun counsel giving wrong information to the court - shirley not?

[Velma Dinkley]

some more info re. the journalists: http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/sunday-herald-columnist-sacked-backing-journalist-who-questioned-rangers-mettle-stop-offensive

[grunt]

Though he seems to have missed the bit where Lord Bob Malcolm suggested that the Huns were manipulating the number of entities involved to ensure that they kept their old league titles. Wonder if Grant feared for his job if he tweeted that? :dunno:

Per James Doleman: Lord Malcolm says Rangers only talked about two different entities 'so they could still say they won the league".

[GreenLake]

The Herald and Sunday Herald newspaper are worse than The Sun or the Record. The latter do not pretend to be serious newspapers. Total disgrace to drop Spiers and Haggerty due to bluenose pressure.

I'd love Spiers to come out with the name of the Director who said that "The Billy Boys" is a great song. His word against the Hun board though so I doubt he will.

I would love him to have hit the button on his voice recorder. Maybe he is waiting for the right moment to upload to youtube.

[JeMeSouviens]

My point being... does that mean we have never won the wee Cup? :cb

Whatever way you slice it we've won it at least once:

Hibs - club formed 1875, <win cup>, disbanded 1891, reformed 1892, <win cup>, incorporated 1905, continues to present

So the legal entity from 1892 to present is the same and has 1 cup win in that period. Whether you view the 1892 Hibs as the same as the 1875-1891 Hibs is murky but there isn't a definite end as per a liquidation.

cf the Huns - club formed 1873 (or some claim 1872), incorporated 1899, consigned to liquidation 2012

[robinp]

Rangers QC refers to Wikipedia.... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You're on the windup.....right?:aok:

[Ozyhibby]

You're on the windup.....right?:aok:

Nope [emoji23]


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[greenginger]

You're on the windup.....right?:aok:



https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/693092170513936384?lang=en

[grunt]

https://twitter.com/jamesdoleman/status/693092170513936384?lang=enAlternatively

https://twitter.com/STVGrant/status/693091978767159296

[Springbank]

Just to digress-this shows clearly the difficulty in the proposals for "fans" to own "clubs".

Different tangent, but I'm beginning to see why Andy Goram was so important to Rangers

one andy goram for the company and another Andy Goram for the club

#TwoAndyGorams

[O'Rourke3]

The Herald and Sunday Herald newspaper are worse than The Sun or the Record. The latter do not pretend to be serious newspapers. Total disgrace to drop Spiers and Haggerty due to bluenose pressure.

I'd love Spiers to come out with the name of the Director who said that "The Billy Boys" is a great song. His word against the Hun board though so I doubt he will.

What are the odds it's Park. Why would you risk a business reputation and try and blackmail a paper into a retraction for a friend? Pretty sure they get no business from the Celtic minded but there will be many others where they do, this is the type of move Ratner made......

[grunt]

I'd love Spiers to come out with the name of the Director who said that "The Billy Boys" is a great song. His word against the Hun board though so I doubt he will.


What are the odds it's Park.
There seems to be Twitter speculation that the Director is John Gilligan?

As a matter of interest, there seems to be a concerted campaign to ensure that any tweet which backs Spiers is met with a barrage of replies saying that he is lying about the quote from the Rangers Director. Appears too consistent to be random responses.

[grunt]

Michael Gray ‏@GrayInGlasgow 31m31 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/693122683597406210) Herald deputy editor @BarclayMcBain (https://twitter.com/BarclayMcBain) has warned staff not to comment on sacking @AngelaHaggerty (https://twitter.com/AngelaHaggerty)/@GrahamSpiers (https://twitter.com/GrahamSpiers) to protect papers' "integrity".

https://twitter.com/GrayInGlasgow/status/693129422338134016

[magpie1892]

Responsibility for the content of the paper is integral to the definition of editor. If it's published in the paper it is either endorsed by the editor or he/she resigns (in circumstances like this).

The fact that the editor has not resigned indicates he endorses the apology.

No, not at all. Try editing a newspaper or magazine in the Middle East - copy gets changed by the owners on a regular basis and in my extensive experience, editorial resignations do not follow as a matter of course. I've never seen it happen, and I've been about.

Here in Scotland, when I was working at the Scotsman, then editor Iain Martin had a piece pulled by the editorial director. Martin was furious, but he didn't walk and he didn't endorse the decision.

'The fact that the editor has not resigned indicates he endorses the apology' is a total non sequitur, certainly in the 18 years I've been involved in journalism in about ten markets on three continents.

[s.a.m]

Charlotte Fakeovers ‏@CharIotteFakes 46m46 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/CharIotteFakes/status/693168360620687360) I am in possession of incriminating emails from the Sevco board member, regarding views on singing of The Billy Boys. @Herald_Editor (https://twitter.com/Herald_Editor)

[Hibee87]

Charlotte Fakeovers ‏@CharIotteFakes 46m46 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/CharIotteFakes/status/693168360620687360) I am in possession of incriminating emails from the Sevco board member, regarding views on singing of The Billy Boys. @Herald_Editor (https://twitter.com/Herald_Editor)

That's interesting, I googled that Charlotte fakes and first thing was a daily record article saying this account leaked tapes and documents a year or 2 back which is being used as evidence in some cases against rangers.

If it's the same Twitter account they may actually have the name

[may 21/05/2016]

Douglas park

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[CropleyWasGod]

Douglas park

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In view of the new club/old club debate, that'll be New Douglas Park.

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[CropleyWasGod]

That's interesting, I googled that Charlotte fakes and first thing was a daily record article saying this account leaked tapes and documents a year or 2 back which is being used as evidence in some cases against rangers.

If it's the same Twitter account they may actually have the name
IIRC, Charlotte Fakes is due in Court himself soon.

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[portycabbage]

Whatever way you slice it we've won it at least once:

Hibs - club formed 1875, <win cup>, disbanded 1891, reformed 1892, <win cup>, incorporated 1905, continues to present

So the legal entity from 1892 to present is the same and has 1 cup win in that period. Whether you view the 1892 Hibs as the same as the 1875-1891 Hibs is murky but there isn't a definite end as per a liquidation.

cf the Huns - club formed 1873 (or some claim 1872), incorporated 1899, consigned to liquidation 2012

I'm not sure Hibs were "disbanded" in 1891 (that would also imply a "definite end"), but they couldn't have been liquidated as they weren't a company then. I think the term "legal entity" itself is murky (to me anyway!), but Hibs were essentially a Church team in the early days, so perhaps they were an "entity" which later became a "legal entity".

[Moulin Yarns]

I agree.

I've ditched the Tax Return. This is great entertainment.

Is it due to be decided today?

Hope you didn't forget to go to the O2 tonight. Good gig and I am wondering where the dhol drummer got those shoes.

[Radium]

IIRC, Charlotte Fakes is due in Court himself soon.

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'The' CharlotteFakes account is suspended. This account in use now seems to use a capital 'i' for the l. Time will no doubt tell if it is a phoenix or a dud.

[mca]

In view of the new club/old club debate, that'll be New Douglas Park.



That's the one... :wink:

[Prof. Shaggy]

No, not at all. Try editing a newspaper or magazine in the Middle East - copy gets changed by the owners on a regular basis and in my extensive experience, editorial resignations do not follow as a matter of course. I've never seen it happen, and I've been about.

Here in Scotland, when I was working at the Scotsman, then editor Iain Martin had a piece pulled by the editorial director. Martin was furious, but he didn't walk and he didn't endorse the decision.

'The fact that the editor has not resigned indicates he endorses the apology' is a total non sequitur, certainly in the 18 years I've been involved in journalism in about ten markets on three continents.

If Martin didn't walk in your example then, de facto, he endorsed the decision.
He's the editor.

[CropleyWasGod]

Hope you didn't forget to go to the O2 tonight. Good gig and I am wondering where the dhol drummer got those shoes.
Was barry, eh? :-)


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[magpie1892]

If Martin didn't walk in your example then, de facto, he endorsed the decision.
He's the editor.

Like I say, your argument simply doesn't follow.

[andyf5]

The Herald and Sunday Herald newspaper are worse than The Sun or the Record. The latter do not pretend to be serious newspapers. Total disgrace to drop Spiers and Haggerty due to bluenose pressure.


"Subscription cancelled
Your subscription has been cancelled. You will continue to have access until Wednesday 24th February 2016."

no longer a Herald subscriber

[Geo_1875]

Like I say, your argument simply doesn't follow.

I think he's harking back to the days of 100% employment and personal integrity.

[magpie1892]

I think he's harking back to the days of 100% employment and personal integrity.

That's a reasonable point. The editor of The Herald is already overseeing a paper which, like The Scotsman, is dying on its arse. He gets a call from upstairs on an editorial point, complies with it and doesn't walk? That somehow means he 'endorses' the decision? Today, it's a non-argument. Fantasy stuff.

[lapsedhibee]

That's a reasonable point. The editor of The Herald is already overseeing a paper which, like The Scotsman, is dying on its arse. He gets a call from upstairs on an editorial point, complies with it and doesn't walk? That somehow means he 'endorses' the decision? Today, it's a non-argument. Fantasy stuff.

Depends how strictly you look to define 'endorse'. Wider meaning is just perhaps putting your name to something (eg endorsing a cheque) which the editor has effectively done by allowing the apology to be published while staying in post.

I would argue Thommo did much the same when he continued to allow nonsense to appear under his name while taking cash from the Direly Rancid. At least Thommo had his poor mum to think about, in mitigation.

[Prof. Shaggy]

I think he's harking back to the days of 100% employment and personal integrity.

I'm thinking back to the days of not having it both ways.
Integrity is a matter of what someone does when there's a conflict between personal principles and corporate decisions. Integrity is a matter for an editor.

I once had a long, and quite fierce exchange of views with Magnus Linklater, when he was Scotsman Editor. He made it quite clear that he took responsibility for what was printed in his paper - no matter how disingenuous that was. I don't know what has changed.

If Llewelin disagrees with the publication of the apology whether he resigns or not is a matter of integrity. That's up to him. It doesn't change the fact that he is responsible for the publication of the apology because he is the editor of the newspaper. He cannot remain as editor and claim the apology is nothing to do with him.

[Ozyhibby]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/587051492786af06de8913e059f62574.jpg



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[Jim Herriot]

Good article here, including Spiers' original message.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/hullo-hullo-we-are-the-bully-boys/

It also includes an example of just how tiny that tiny minority is. [Warning: video may contain traces of Fenian blood.]
https://youtu.be/dBTsCP9zLm4


Perhaps the parties involved with The Rangers International Football Club should asked to provide the court with their definition of "tiny minority"?

[H18S NX]

What are the odds it's Park. Why would you risk a business reputation and try and blackmail a paper into a retraction for a friend? Pretty sure they get no business from the Celtic minded but there will be many others where they do, this is the type of move Ratner made.........yes,that's what i heard last night

[magpie1892]

I once had a long, and quite fierce exchange of views with Magnus Linklater, when he was Scotsman Editor. He made it quite clear that he took responsibility for what was printed in his paper - no matter how disingenuous that was. I don't know what has changed.



A very great deal has changed, especially in Scotland. You must know this.

I don't wholly reject the point you're trying to make, I'm saying it's completely anachronistic and fantastic when the current state of print media and levels (or lack of therein) of employment in journalism, especially in Scotland, are examined.

The argument you present almost comes across as a little quaint - it's at least 20 years out of date, especially when you mention Magnus Linklater (whose tenure as editor of TS ended 22 years ago); I went to school with one of his sons (not the mental one)...

[CropleyWasGod]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160130/587051492786af06de8913e059f62574.jpg



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...which, IMO, backs up the argument that the "club" continues. If it's an idea that exists in the mind of its supporters, that idea still exists, no matter the legal status of the company that operates it.

[Jim44]

Good article here, including Spiers' original message.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/hullo-hullo-we-are-the-bully-boys/

It also includes an example of just how tiny that tiny minority is. [Warning: video may contain traces of Fenian blood.]
https://youtu.be/dBTsCP9zLm4


Perhaps the parties involved with The Rangers International Football Club should asked to provide the court with their definition of "tiny minority"?

The tiny minority was so small, I couldn't see it.

[Ozyhibby]

...which, IMO, backs up the argument that the "club" continues. If it's a concept that exists in the mind of its supporters, that concept still exists, no matter the legal status of the company that operates it.

I actually don't care much about the old club new club stuff but it annoys them so much I'll never stop using the word Sevco. [emoji23]
What I do care about is the stripping of the titles for cheating. Until that happens there will never be peace for the SFA.


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[Velma Dinkley]

No, not at all. Try editing a newspaper or magazine in the Middle East - copy gets changed by the owners on a regular basis and in my extensive experience, editorial resignations do not follow as a matter of course. I've never seen it happen, and I've been about.

Here in Scotland, when I was working at the Scotsman, then editor Iain Martin had a piece pulled by the editorial director. Martin was furious, but he didn't walk and he didn't endorse the decision.

'The fact that the editor has not resigned indicates he endorses the apology' is a total non sequitur, certainly in the 18 years I've been involved in journalism in about ten markets on three continents.

To be fair, in the Middle East, it's not just common for journalists and editors to resign over such things, but they tend to leave the region. Although it's more common for them to be sacked before it gets to that stage.

[magpie1892]

To be fair, in the Middle East, it's not just common for journalists and editors to resign over such things, but they tend to leave the region. Although it's more common for them to be sacked before it gets to that stage.

I was sacked by ITP in Dubai and had a new, vastly superior job within four days - at double my ITP salary.

That's not really relevant to the central point though - an editor not resigning over editorial influence from above does not represent 'endorsement'. Not in the Middle East, and especially not in Scotland.

[Benny Brazil]

Caught Off the Ball on the radio on the way home - Cosgrove was talking about the Huns latest O Halloran bid - saying how derisory the offer was, was based on not only being paid in installments but also if the Huns qualified for the Champions League!! Hunbelievable.

[Moulin Yarns]

Let's keep this in the spotlight.


http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2016/01/29/scottish-media-failure-exposed/

[Kato]

I'm not sure Hibs were "disbanded" in 1891 (that would also imply a "definite end"), but they couldn't have been liquidated as they weren't a company then. I think the term "legal entity" itself is murky (to me anyway!), but Hibs were essentially a Church team in the early days, so perhaps they were an "entity" which later became a "legal entity".

There wasn't any thought of Hibs being disbanded back then. Hibs ran into trouble with the lease of ER, which led to the purchase of the land where the ground is now. At the same time the CYMS suspended "all sporting activity" due to political views held by it's members. As soon as that and the issue of where to play Hibs were "resuscitated" (the word used in the letters to various club members.)

[Deansy]

Caught Off the Ball on the radio on the way home - Cosgrove was talking about the Huns latest O Halloran bid - saying how derisory the offer was, was based on not only being paid in installments but also if the Huns qualified for the Champions League!! Hunbelievable.

Is it any wonder them and that lot over at the PBS are known as 'Brothers' ?? Over on 'Fudback', one of them's posted a fanciful idea to ensure they win the league ??. Can't be bothered going into details but it involves 10,000 of them paying £150 EACH so they can get a decent enough squad that will do it - simple, eh .......................

STILL the fanciful ideas, STILL the huge amounts of money and STILL 'Reality' avoids them - yup, there's absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between both !!

[greenginger]

Is it any wonder them and that lot over at the PBS are known as 'Brothers' ?? Over on 'Fudback', one of them's posted a fanciful idea to ensure they win the league ??. Can't be bothered going into details but it involves 10,000 of them paying £150 EACH so they can get a decent enough squad that will do it - simple, eh .......................

STILL the fanciful ideas, STILL the huge amounts of money and STILL 'Reality' avoids them - yup, there's absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between both !!


Try suggesting the 10,000 Fudbackers should each pay £ 10,000 each and payback the £ 100 million or so Vlad blew on them.

[GlesgaeHibby]

O'Halloran now expected to sign. Good signing, but our defence coped with him no bother at all at the weekend.

[jacomo]

Think the Yams should definitely bankrupt themselves to give Levein what he wants.

After all, if the year ends in a 6, the Double is on!

[Smartie]

O'Halloran now expected to sign. Good signing, but our defence coped with him no bother at all at the weekend.

Does it signal a thawing in relations between The Rangers and the other Scottish clubs that Paul Hanlon is allowing O'Halloran to climb out of his back pocket to go to Ibrox and sign for the Gers?

[greenginger]

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/current-business/court-rolls/court-roll?id=b1baffa6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7

The Sevco Six back in High Court in Edinburgh tomorrow. Preliminary hearing only but might find out if there is a squealer amongest them.

[Dr Jimmy]

Try suggesting the 10,000 Fudbackers should each pay £ 10,000 each and payback the £ 100 million or so Vlad blew on them.

This is the bit that really sticks in my throat with them. Two years on from their owners stealing ordinary people's savings, putting local businesses under financial strain, "borrowing" from charities all to pay players to win football matches. Despite this they do not show any shame, embarrassment or even one iota of contrition. They just get back on the "big team" bandwagon.
They really are disgusting and the media love in with them is shameful at best. can you imagine the outcry if we or the other team from the "wrong side" of the church did this?

[ACLeith]

This is the bit that really sticks in my throat with them. Two years on from their owners stealing ordinary people's savings, putting local businesses under financial strain, "borrowing" from charities all to pay players to win football matches. Despite this they do not show any shame, embarrassment or even one iota of contrition. They just get back on the "big team" bandwagon.
They really are disgusting and the media love in with them is shameful at best. can you imagine the outcry if we or the other team from the "wrong side" of the church did this?

Pathetic comment to suggest that there are sectarian reasons behind this.

[Dr Jimmy]

Pathetic comment to suggest that there are sectarian reasons behind this.

How else do u explain the media giving them pats on the back despite what they did and we get sneared and laughed at?
I would like to know your answer, but please don't make it a pathetic one.

[portycabbage]

...which, IMO, backs up the argument that the "club" continues. If it's an idea that exists in the mind of its supporters, that idea still exists, no matter the legal status of the company that operates it.

"Exists only in the mind" is not exactly great support for a clubs continuing existence! And how does a company "operate" something that is only an idea in the minds of fans? In my mind, Third Lanark have just bought Messi and Ronaldo, so it must be true that they're the Champions League winners!

[Liberal Hibby]

How else do u explain the media giving them pats on the back despite what they did and we get sneared and laughed at?
I would like to know your answer, but please don't make it a pathetic one.

You ask imagine the outcry if it was us (taking out the pathetic sectarian reference)? It would be the same as the outcry over Third Lanark, Livi, Airdrie, Motherwell or Dundee (twice) - ie none. Sports journos just aren't interested (or perhaps capable of dealing with) the intracacies of the financial fall out of football clubs going to the wall. It's seen through the frame of sporting success and failure and the impact on the fans who rally round to save the club they love. Just like the Hands Off Hibs campaign was.

As AC said - it is pathetic to see this as a sectarian issue.

[CropleyWasGod]

"Exists only in the mind" is not exactly great support for a clubs continuing existence! And how does a company "operate" something that is only an idea in the minds of fans? In my mind, Third Lanark have just bought Messi and Ronaldo, so it must be true that they're the Champions League winners!
It ties in with my argument that a football club, unlike most businesses, is an emotional construct. None of us support Hibs for anything other than emotional reasons. To us, and most football fans, the notion of "the club" is not the stands, the balance sheet, the Board or even the current team. It's an indefinable thing which exists, as has been said, "in the mind".

I'll say it again. Had the Rangers story happened to us, I'm sure that we would have been claiming that we were the same club.

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[ACLeith]

How else do u explain the media giving them pats on the back despite what they did and we get sneared and laughed at?
I would like to know your answer, but please don't make it a pathetic one.

There are many different groups who have behaved appallingly over their demise; Edinburgh Council over Council Tax (and safety certificate), Heriot Watt over unpaid fees and yes the media - not just EEN, but national as well - who I agree, gloss over their actions. Their sympathy may be partly to do with a dodgy foreigner coming in and damaging/destroying one of our biggest clubs (let's face it they are, just like us), maybe partly they are regarded as an "Establishment" team. Not because they are a so-called "Proddy" team, as you imply.

The anti-Hibs bias in the media is more to do with seeing one of the traditional "big 4" teams in the country get into difficulty, playing-wise. And maybe also that we took a great delight (me included!) in seeing them obviously going down 2 years ago due to malpractice and then finding it happened to us for football reasons. We have started to change media comments though due to how we have performed this season, it will take a while longer with some in the media (RG).

Every fan I know, of whatever team and that includes Hearts - wants to get rid of sectarian filth from our game, trying to dredge up more of it with regard to a non-sectarian club and support like ours is wrong in so many ways.

[s.a.m]

You ask imagine the outcry if it was us (taking out the pathetic sectarian reference)? It would be the same as the outcry over Third Lanark, Livi, Airdrie, Motherwell or Dundee (twice) - ie none. Sports journos just aren't interested (or perhaps capable of dealing with) the intracacies of the financial fall out of football clubs going to the wall. It's seen through the frame of sporting success and failure and the impact on the fans who rally round to save the club they love. Just like the Hands Off Hibs campaign was.

As AC said - it is pathetic to see this as a sectarian issue.

:agree:
Hearts have marketed their revival very well, and the media have covered it uncritically. It's an easy story; likewise our implosion. Laziness and lack of interest rather than prejudice.

[worcesterhibby]

It ties in with my argument that a football club, unlike most businesses, is an emotional construct. None of us support Hibs for anything other than emotional reasons. To us, and most football fans, the notion of "the club" is not the stands, the balance sheet, the Board or even the current team. It's an indefinable thing which exists, as has been said, "in the mind".

I'll say it again. Had the Rangers story happened to us, I'm sure that we would have been claiming that we were the same club.

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Got to agree. The whole Rangers saga absolutely stinks and I hate the bigoted hate spewed by a large portion of their support. They will always be my least favourite club in Scotland. But to try to pretend that they don't exist is rather childish (quite funny sometimes) but childish none the less.

[Dr Jimmy]

[QUOTE=Liberal Hibby;4570101]You ask imagine the outcry if it was us (taking out the pathetic sectarian reference)? It would be the same as the outcry over Third Lanark, Livi, Airdrie, Motherwell or Dundee (twice) - ie none. Sports journos just aren't interested (or perhaps capable of dealing with) the intracacies of the financial fall out of football clubs going to the wall. It's seen through the frame of sporting success and failure and the impact on the fans who rally round to save the club they love. Just like the Hands Off Hibs campaign was.

As AC said - it is pathetic to see this as a sectarian issue.[/QUOTE

That's right just accept it as shoddy journos.
Just keep your ears open on Sunday to the songs being sung, then listen for the deafening silence from the media about it. No religious issues at all in Scotland or the media....aye right.
Until people start properly challenging this and ignore the liberal (I believe what I am fed) silent majority, then it will go on for ever. It's only been going on for 100s of years after all.

[Ozyhibby]

There are many different groups who have behaved appallingly over their demise; Edinburgh Council over Council Tax (and safety certificate), Heriot Watt over unpaid fees and yes the media - not just EEN, but national as well - who I agree, gloss over their actions. Their sympathy may be partly to do with a dodgy foreigner coming in and damaging/destroying one of our biggest clubs (let's face it they are, just like us), maybe partly they are regarded as an "Establishment" team. Not because they are a so-called "Proddy" team, as you imply.

The anti-Hibs bias in the media is more to do with seeing one of the traditional "big 4" teams in the country get into difficulty, playing-wise. And maybe also that we took a great delight (me included!) in seeing them obviously going down 2 years ago due to malpractice and then finding it happened to us for football reasons. We have started to change media comments though due to how we have performed this season, it will take a while longer with some in the media (RG).

Every fan I know, of whatever team and that includes Hearts - wants to get rid of sectarian filth from our game, trying to dredge up more of it with regard to a non-sectarian club and support like ours is wrong in so many ways.

A lot of the media delight in our demise is to do with Petrie and his poor public relations. He treats them like dirt so it's hardly surprising that they laughed as we tumbled.
Leeann has improved relations with the press but there is a way to go.


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[Geo_1875]

There are many different groups who have behaved appallingly over their demise; Edinburgh Council over Council Tax (and safety certificate), Heriot Watt over unpaid fees and yes the media - not just EEN, but national as well - who I agree, gloss over their actions. Their sympathy may be partly to do with a dodgy foreigner coming in and damaging/destroying one of our biggest clubs (let's face it they are, just like us), maybe partly they are regarded as an "Establishment" team. Not because they are a so-called "Proddy" team, as you imply.

The anti-Hibs bias in the media is more to do with seeing one of the traditional "big 4" teams in the country get into difficulty, playing-wise. And maybe also that we took a great delight (me included!) in seeing them obviously going down 2 years ago due to malpractice and then finding it happened to us for football reasons. We have started to change media comments though due to how we have performed this season, it will take a while longer with some in the media (RG).

Every fan I know, of whatever team and that includes Hearts - wants to get rid of sectarian filth from our game, trying to dredge up more of it with regard to a non-sectarian club and support like ours is wrong in so many ways.

Campbell Ogilvie and David Self-sufficient Southern are not dodgy foreigners. Well I know for a fact they're not foreigners. They got an easy time in the media while everybody else could see what was happening. No media outlet cried foul when self-sufficiency became insolvency the day after the season finished and Dundee were relegated in place of them. They get an easy ride for some reason and I know what I think it is.

[CropleyWasGod]

Campbell Ogilvie and David Self-sufficient Southern are not dodgy foreigners. Well I know for a fact they're not foreigners. They got an easy time in the media while everybody else could see what was happening. No media outlet cried foul when self-sufficiency became insolvency the day after the season finished and Dundee were relegated in place of them. They get an easy ride for some reason and I know what I think it is.
Hearts went into administration almost a month after the season ended, not the day after.

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[Geo_1875]

Hearts went into administration almost a month after the season ended, not the day after.

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Officially into admin. They stopped paying everybody the day after the league was completed.

[Kato]

Hearts went into administration almost a month after the season ended, not the day after.

Yes but wasn't that the cut-off date after which they could avoid relegation.

[jacomo]

It ties in with my argument that a football club, unlike most businesses, is an emotional construct. None of us support Hibs for anything other than emotional reasons. To us, and most football fans, the notion of "the club" is not the stands, the balance sheet, the Board or even the current team. It's an indefinable thing which exists, as has been said, "in the mind".

I'll say it again. Had the Rangers story happened to us, I'm sure that we would have been claiming that we were the same club.

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I totally get the argument that, emotionally, The Rangers is a continuation of all that has gone before.

Doesn't change the fact that, legally and financially, they were created in 2012. That is why their shrieks about punishment and demotion are unfounded.

[Liberal Hibby]

Just keep your ears open on Sunday to the songs being sung, then listen for the deafening silence from the media about it. No religious issues at all in Scotland or the media....aye right.


No-one's denying there aren't issues about religious sectarianism in Scotland - but it is a mighty leap to go from that to say Hearts are being protected by a compliant media because they're a protestant institution.

[Lago]

:top marks
It ties in with my argument that a football club, unlike most businesses, is an emotional construct. None of us support Hibs for anything other than emotional reasons. To us, and most football fans, the notion of "the club" is not the stands, the balance sheet, the Board or even the current team. It's an indefinable thing which exists, as has been said, "in the mind".

I'll say it again. Had the Rangers story happened to us, I'm sure that we would have been claiming that we were the same club.

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[JeMeSouviens]

It ties in with my argument that a football club, unlike most businesses, is an emotional construct. None of us support Hibs for anything other than emotional reasons. To us, and most football fans, the notion of "the club" is not the stands, the balance sheet, the Board or even the current team. It's an indefinable thing which exists, as has been said, "in the mind".

I'll say it again. Had the Rangers story happened to us, I'm sure that we would have been claiming that we were the same club.

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Well we would have been wrong. Our attachment to the club might be sentimental/emotional but a football club is still a real tangible entity, either as a sports club for members (as they almost all started out) or incorporated as a limited company. If they have incorporated and are liquidated, as per Third Lanark or the old Airdrie, they cease to be. Nobody questioned that or came up with any alternative way of looking at it until the SFA and SPFL were staring down the barrel of what they perceived as a short term black hole in their finances due to losing Rangers and with them, the Old Firm cash cow.

In the real world, the old Rangers is dead and the new Rangers is a new club, whatever fictional fudge the SFA/SPFL come up with.

[greenginger]

Today's Sevco Six hearing postponed until tomorrow.


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