Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Pretty Boy]

I would doubt that very much. If this was done pre-administration, it would be very easy to strike down as an unfair preference. If it is done in administration, given the size of the unsecured creditors, I'd be pretty confident that the administrator would quickly find himself before the Court of Session to explain his actions. Cannot see that a pre-pack would work here as it would quickly be seen as an attempt to defraud HMRC.

Apart from anything else, the SPL membership is not a liquid asset that could be so easily transferred....

This.

As i see it appointing their own administrator would be an advantage but not a get out of jail free card.

[jonty]

duff and phelps appointed.

[cabbageandribs1875]

duff and phelps appointed.


didn't see that one coming




:fibber:

[ehf]

I would doubt that very much. If this was done pre-administration, it would be very easy to strike down as an unfair preference. If it is done in administration, given the size of the unsecured creditors, I'd be pretty confident that the administrator would quickly find himself before the Court of Session to explain his actions. Cannot see that a pre-pack would work here as it would quickly be seen as an attempt to defraud HMRC.

Apart from anything else, the SPL membership is not a liquid asset that could be so easily transferred....

Pre-packs are invariably attempts to defraud unsecured creditors and they have been given the seal of approval of the courts, even though seeming to fly in the face of the insolvency legislation, which obliges administrators to have regard to the interests of all creditors.

You may have a point re the SPL membership but sure Whyte and his advisers will have thought of a way round this.

[jonty]

HMRC withdraw their application

[truehibernian]

On a day when Hearts paid their tax bill, they are now effectively hit with a 'yer no getting yer cash' post-it note from Duff and Phelps......the soap opera is great, and Vlad hasn't even taken the stage yet.

Rangers will come out of this......the knock on effect to other clubs however could be bigger. Let's see who Rangers owe money to now.

[s.a.m]

It's quite exciting, almost like transfer deadline day thread.:wink::hibees


So it is!

While I'm sure they'll eventually emerge from this smelling of roses, and we - as taxpayers - are possibly going to get fleeced, it's like watching a playground bully getting their come-uppance. In front of assembly.

[Newry Hibs]

This.

As i see it appointing their own administrator would be an advantage but not a get out of jail free card.

I can't the administrator doing anything that hasn't been OKed or suggested by Whyte though. One big easy ride coming up for RFC and one big shafting for the rest of us.

[YehButNoBut]

So they have now gone into administration and will automatically be deducted 10 points.

[CropleyWasGod]

I can't the administrator doing anything that hasn't been OKed or suggested by Whyte though. One big easy ride coming up for RFC and one big shafting for the rest of us.

The administrator is Court-appointed, and duty-bound to act on behalf of ALL creditors, including HMRC. Any suggestion of bias will not be looked upon favourably by the Court.

[Smidge]

I can't the administrator doing anything that hasn't been OKed or suggested by Whyte though. One big easy ride coming up for RFC and one big shafting for the rest of us.

That may will be the case, but they will need to be very very very careful not to do anything that is challengeable by HMRC and other unsecured creditors.

[NOLA]

feels like a huge anti-climax, so the hunns bring in duff/phelps, stinks.

[jonty]

And they have to pay HMRCs expenses. big deal.

[iwasthere1972]

It's quite exciting, almost like transfer deadline day thread.:wink::hibees

:thumbsup:

Anything of value transferred from the HUNS to HMRC.

When are the Hearts wages due to be paid? Is it the 16th?#

Would be convenient if the Big Huns and the Mini Huns could appear in the same court on the same day. The same allocation to each of them and home and away ends. I would buy a ticket to see that match.

[Exiled Hibby]

So it is!

While I'm sure they'll eventually emerge from this smelling of roses, and we - as taxpayers - are possibly going to get fleeced, it's like watching a playground bully getting their come-uppance. In front of assembly.

:agree: Let's just keep enjoying their pain - who knows, we may still get the best possible ending.

[Spike Mandela]

So they have now gone into administration and will automatically be deducted 10 points.

What a weak and ineffectual sanction. Teams should be put 10 points behind bottom club but SPL is hamstrung by the 11-1 voting system.

[Smidge]

Pre-packs are invariably attempts to defraud unsecured creditors and they have been given the seal of approval of the courts, even though seeming to fly in the face of the insolvency legislation, which obliges administrators to have regard to the interests of all creditors.

You may have a point re the SPL membership but sure Whyte and his advisers will have thought of a way round this.

I've been involved (mainly as an observer) on a couple of pre-packs, so I am aware that they are normally waved through by the courts. However, the extent of the unsecured creditors was a fraction of the secured creditors' rights. Given the scale of the unsecured creditors here, it is highly likely that the court would want to have a very close look at any proposals. If HMRC get a sniff of something that will do them out of a decent settlement, then I am sure that we would be running to the court to get an interim interdict to prevent anything being executed.

[YehButNoBut]

What a weak and ineffectual sanction. Teams should be put 10 points behind bottom club but SPL is hamstrung by the 11-1 voting system.

So what was different about Dundee's situation (they were deducted 25 points) or Livingston who had to start in Div 3.

[HibbyAndy]

http://www.hibs.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7917&d=1329229267


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


:wink:

[Peevemor]

So what was different about Dundee's situation (they were deducted 25 points) or Livingston who had to start in Div 3.

They were governed by Scottsh League and not SPL rules.

[jgl07]

So what was different about Dundee's situation (they were deducted 25 points) or Livingston who had to start in Div 3.

That was SFL rules.

[SteveHFC]

We're having a party when the Huns die!

[Spike Mandela]

Get your hankies ready for the media stories of the 'plucky' players struggling on through difficult times.:boo hoo:

[StevieC]

SPL is hamstrung by the 11-1 voting system.

That 11-1 voting system might see Rangers (or whatever the resurrected team are called) refused entry to the SPL.
Whilst most clubs will want them back in, due to gates and TV money, all it takes is 2 teams to vote against it and they will be left floundering in the lower divisions.
The bottom team would retain SPL status so it's in their benefit to do so. Mad Vlad might well vote them out after getting shafted for the Lee Wallace money (and the huns being part of the "mafia"). No love lost between Rangers and Aberdeen. Even Celtic might be against them for fear of a fans backlash (or just for SPL domination).

[iwasthere1972]

http://www.hibs.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7917&d=1329229267


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


:wink:

:greengrin

One with Ally McCoist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4&feature=youtube_gdata

[ehf]

I've been involved (mainly as an observer) on a couple of pre-packs, so I am aware that they are normally waved through by the courts. However, the extent of the unsecured creditors was a fraction of the secured creditors' rights. Given the scale of the unsecured creditors here, it is highly likely that the court would want to have a very close look at any proposals. If HMRC get a sniff of something that will do them out of a decent settlement, then I am sure that we would be running to the court to get an interim interdict to prevent anything being executed.

Let's hope so: it would be great if, as well scuppering Whyte's scheme, this resulted in a test-case that will prevent the widespread abuse of the administration system that has been allowed to develop by the sanctioning of pre-packs.

In the meantime, here's hoping Celtic take their foot off the gas on Sunday!

[Golden Bear]

Get your hankies ready for the media stories of the 'plucky' players struggling on through difficult times.:boo hoo:

If the mighty hawrts lose out on the Lee Wallace saga then good - the chickens have come home to roost in their case.

However I do feel sorry for Dundee Utd if they are left floundering for the £100,000 in gate money which they're still due for the Cup Tie at Ibrox. That seems grossly unfair and I would hope that the SFA have some sort of emergency contingency fund to cover scenarios like this one.

[GloryGlory]

If the mighty hawrts lose out on the Lee Wallace saga then good - the chickens have come home to roost in their case.

However I do feel sorry for Dundee Utd if they are left floundering for the £100,000 in gate money which they're still due for the Cup Tie at Ibrox. That seems grossly unfair and I would hope that the SFA have some sort of emergency contingency fund to cover scenarios like this one.

Deduct Rangers' sponsorship money?

[jgl07]

That 11-1 voting system might see Rangers (or whatever the resurrected team are called) refused entry to the SPL.
Whilst most clubs will want them back in, due to gates and TV money, all it takes is 2 teams to vote against it and they will be left floundering in the lower divisions.
The bottom team would retain SPL status so it's in their benefit to do so. Mad Vlad might well vote them out after getting shafted for the Lee Wallace money (and the huns being part of the "mafia"). No love lost between Rangers and Aberdeen. Even Celtic might be against them for fear of a fans backlash (or just for SPL domination).

Any club voting to readmit RFC would have to answer to their own fans.

I am not sure if the 11-1 voting rule will apply to this sort of issue. That is restricted to financial matters as far as I understand things.

[Billy Whizz]

In the meantime, here's hoping Celtic take their foot off the gas on Sunday!

Lets hope they send out their reserves

[CRAZYHIBBY]

Gazza gazza wheres yer rod...

[NOLA]

strathclyde polis saying that they need guarentee they get paid or they wont police anymore gers games :faf:

[GloryGlory]

Strathclyde Polis saying they will not police Rangers game unless they are assured they will be paid!

Wonder what money will be required to police the next OF game at Ibrox? You can't see the Celtc fans avoiding the chance to extract the urine. :greengrin :greengrin

PS If games are cancelled because the police refuse to turn up, would Rangers forfeit the points?

[PeeKay]

strathclyde polis saying that they need guarentee they get paid or they wont police anymore gers games :faf:

Surely this means that they cannot fulfill their fixtures, in which case may they not face further sanctions beyond the 10 points?

[StevieC]

I am not sure if the 11-1 voting rule will apply to this sort of issue. That is restricted to financial matters as far as I understand things.

You're right, 11-1 is for financial issues. For league issues it requires 10-2. For all other (minor) issues it requires an 8-4 majority.

"Any change to the size in the top flight, whether an expansion or reduction, requires a 10-2 majority, ie 83 per cent. Any change to the distribution of income needs an 11-1 vote (92 per cent). Most other resolutions, such as an earlier start to the season, play-offs and winter shut-down, can be passed with 67 per cent backing, an 8-4 majority."

I'm guessing that Rangers getting into the SPL would need 10 teams to back it (or 2 teams to block it, assuming that Rangers wont be allowed to vote).

If it's still us and Dunfermline fighting it out for relegation when the vote comes around then that could be 2 teams right there.
I'm also tempted to think Mad Vlad would vote against them (unless he gets a "back-hander").
Hard to say what way Celtic would vote.
It's quite possible that their SPL status would not be a "given".

[Cropley10]

Any club voting to readmit RFC would have to answer to their own fans.

I am not sure if the 11-1 voting rule will apply to this sort of issue. That is restricted to financial matters as far as I understand things.

Only 6 Clubs are required to change the conditions of entry to the SPL.

Rangers will frig the Admin, not pay HMRC, pre-pack liquidation and re-emerge as Glasgow Rangers FC where it will only need 6 Clubs to allow them straight back in.

This will be done for the good of the game in Scotland i.e to satisfy Murdoch/Sky.

Hearts will then do exactly the same.

[GloryGlory]

strathclyde polis saying that they need guarentee they get paid or they wont police anymore gers games :faf:

Ouch! Beat me to it! :wink: :not worth

[HibbyAndy]

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/420620_10150594963659351_666619350_8796609_1268827 780_n.jpg

[Paisley Hibby]

feels like a huge anti-climax, so the hunns bring in duff/phelps, stinks.

Sorrybut I'm trying to catch up with this. Can someone explain why appointment of Duff Phelps is an issue? I'm guessing too close to Whyte but in what way?

[Cropley10]

You're right, 11-1 is for financial issues. For league issues it requires 10-2. For all other (minor) issues it requires an 8-4 majority.

"Any change to the size in the top flight, whether an expansion or reduction, requires a 10-2 majority, ie 83 per cent. Any change to the distribution of income needs an 11-1 vote (92 per cent). Most other resolutions, such as an earlier start to the season, play-offs and winter shut-down, can be passed with 67 per cent backing, an 8-4 majority."

I'm guessing that Rangers getting into the SPL would need 10 teams to back it (or 3 teams to block it).

If it's still us and Dunfermline fighting it out for relegation when the vote comes around then that could be 2 of the 3 teams voting against them to ensure SPL survival.
I'm tempted to think Mad Vlad would vote against them (unless he gets a "back-hander").
Hard to say what way Celtic would vote.
It's quite possible that their SPL status would not be a "given".

But admitting |"Glasgow Rangers" would be neither an expansion nor a reduction, rather a continuation of the status quo.

[GloryGlory]

Sorrybut I'm trying to catch up with this. Can someone explain why appointment of Duff Phelps is an issue? I'm guessing too close to Whyte but in what way?

I think they acted as his advisors when he took over Rangers. Maybe have previous with his other companies, too.

So not entirely impartial or disinterested.

[Leithenhibby]

Strathclyde Polis saying they will not police Rangers game unless they are assured they will be paid!

Wonder what money will be required to police the next OF game at Ibrox? You can't see the Celtc fans avoiding the chance to extract the urine. :greengrin :greengrin

PS If games are cancelled because the police refuse to turn up, would Rangers forfeit the points?


Would hope that the SPL would hammer them with another 10 point deduction .. At least ...

[Big Frank]

Only 6 Clubs are required to change the conditions of entry to the SPL.

Rangers will frig the Admin, not pay HMRC, pre-pack liquidation and re-emerge as Glasgow Rangers FC where it will only need 6 Clubs to allow them straight back in.

This will be done for the good of the game in Scotland i.e to satisfy Murdoch/Sky.

Hearts will then do exactly the same.



Can't see any way Scottish Football could continue if this was the case.

Ridiculous.

[Paisley Hibby]

I think they acted as his advisors when he took over Rangers. Maybe have previous with his other companies, too.

So not entirely impartial or disinterested.

Thanks for that. I know nothing about Company Law but surely the Court should appoint the administators? If that's not the law just now then it should be.

[GloryGlory]

Would hope that the SPL would hammer them with another 10 point deduction .. At least ...

Would actually think (hope) relegation to a lower division may be in order for failing to fulfill fixtures! :greengrin

PS A 10 point deduction per each unfulfilled fixture could do it. Would expect Strathclyde Loyal Polis to somehow find a way of policing matches if this were the case!

[iwasthere1972]

strathclyde polis saying that they need guarentee they get paid or they wont police anymore gers games :faf:

Quite right. They have enough unpaid old bills :wink: already.

[blackpoolhibs]

I think they acted as his advisors when he took over Rangers. Maybe have previous with his other companies, too.

So not entirely impartial or disinterested.

I'd imagine HMRC will be taking a close look at every decision they take, while i expect Duff and Phelps to try and help the huns, they are still bound by the rules. If D&F's try it on, i'd expect HMRC to appeal anything dodgy? They want paying and will be doing their best to get it.

[LancashireHibby]

Would actually think (hope) relegation to a lower division may be in order for failing to fulfill fixtures! :greengrin

PS A 10 point deduction per each unfulfilled fixture could do it. Would expect Strathclyde Loyal Polis to somehow find a way of policing matches if this were the case!

Not out of the question considering that was the reasoning for Livi being dropped to Division Three (albeit by the SFL rather than SPL).

[jgl07]

Can't see any way Scottish Football could continue if this was the case.

Ridiculous.

I have only just started to go back to Easter Road after the 10-team SPL fiasco last year.

If Rangers were admitted straight back into the SPL it would finish me off for good with Scottish Football.

[StevieC]

Would actually think (hope) relegation to a lower division may be in order for failing to fulfill fixtures!

Is that not what happened to Gretna? Or was it Livi?
They were unable to give guarantees that they could fulfill their fixtures, so they were dropped to the bottom division?

[jgl07]

Is that not what happened to Gretna?
They were unable to give guarantees that they could fulfill their fixtures, so they were dropped to the bottom division?

They were liquidated anyway after Mileson withdrew his financial guarantee.

They reformed but did not apply for readmission to the SPL.

[Paisley Hibby]

I'd imagine HMRC will be taking a close look at every decision they take, while i expect Duff and Phelps to try and help the huns, they are still bound by the rules. If D&F's try it on, i'd expect HMRC to appeal anything dodgy? They want paying and will be doing their best to get it.

I think this quote from the Scottish Government suggest the Hunz will get away with this

Sport Minister Shona Robison said Rangers current plight was "a concerning situation for everyone involved in Scottish football".

She said: "Football is our national game and it is now for the administrators to take forward the process of assessing the business and securing an outcome in the best interests of the club, its staff, supporters and the game of football as a whole in Scotland."

...and here was thinking that one of the main roles of the Administrators is actually to try to sort out a fair deal for creditors - including us as taxpayers in this case?

[GloryGlory]

Is that not what happened to Gretna? Or was it Livi?
They were unable to give guarantees that they could fulfill their fixtures, so they were dropped to the bottom division?

We could have the polis going round Ibrox on match day displaying sponsors' logos, as the establishment found a way to help out the good old 'Gers by paying their police bills! :greengrin

[Leithenhibby]

Is that not what happened to Gretna? Or was it Livi?
They were unable to give guarantees that they could fulfill their fixtures, so they were dropped to the bottom division?


It was the SFL, this is SPL. No the same, which is a real shame.... :rolleyes:

[PeeKay]

I think this quote from the Scottish Government suggest the Hunz will get away with this

Sport Minister Shona Robison said Rangers current plight was "a concerning situation for everyone involved in Scottish football".

She said: "Football is our national game and it is now for the administrators to take forward the process of assessing the business and securing an outcome in the best interests of the club, its staff, supporters and the game of football as a whole in Scotland."

...and here was thinking that one of the main roles of the Administrators is actually to try to sort out a fair deal for creditors - including us as taxpayers in this case?

Isn't Nicola Sturgeon the MSP for Govan? I can see a rescue package looming.

[happiehibbie]

What will happen is Mr whyte will start a new company called Huns Fc for example no debt aquire all assests BUT the big question is will they be allowed into the SPL

[TornadoHibby]

That may will be the case, but they will need to be very very very careful not to do anything that is challengeable by HMRC and other unsecured creditors.

Can't imagine that they would do any such thing and that the process will be carried out in line with current Insolvency legislation and practice! :wink:

As I said earlier, if CW's advisors in the plan to set the club up for such a move as has now happened are now to act as Administrators to RFC, then they will have been very involved in the deal structure and, presumably, in achieving a structure which served the ambitions of their client in maintaining control over RFC and its assets no matter what! Whether they would be able to manipulate financial elements of the administration which was to the legal detriment of other groups of creditors whose (unsecured) interests must be looked after along with those of the more protected secured creditors such as CW or the lending (to RFC) company by way of a bond and floating charge or some form of fixed security secured over specific property is questionable within the legal constraints that they will be working within I imagine! :cb

[Lofarl]

How could there be a 10-2 vote or 11-1 vote if Rangers are bust? There would only be 11 teams in the SPL.

[blackpoolhibs]

I think this quote from the Scottish Government suggest the Hunz will get away with this

Sport Minister Shona Robison said Rangers current plight was "a concerning situation for everyone involved in Scottish football".

She said: "Football is our national game and it is now for the administrators to take forward the process of assessing the business and securing an outcome in the best interests of the club, its staff, supporters and the game of football as a whole in Scotland."

...and here was thinking that one of the main roles of the Administrators is actually to try to sort out a fair deal for creditors - including us as taxpayers in this case?

I'm not quite so sure its that clear cut? This is a huge case, even by british standards. And the right thing has to be seen to be done. Gone are the days of running roughshod over folk. Tax payers are keen these days to see companies pay just what they owe, and the law is the law. I dont think this can just be swept under the carpet, they might get away with paying less, but it will be transparent, and there for everyone to see.

[Billy Whizz]

On a serious note a lot of people are now going to lose their job over this and I don't mean the highly paid top players. When an administrator goes into a business they quite quickly make people redundant.
Expect youth players and non day to day essential personnel to lose their jobs this week. This is the real tragedy in all this

[SlickShoes]

Rangers will be back to normal in 1-2 years, playing in the same stadium but with all the debt wiped out.

[Smidge]

How could there be a 10-2 vote or 11-1 vote if Rangers are bust? There would only be 11 teams in the SPL.

While they are in administration, I am sure that the administrator will wield their vote.

[Pete]

I think this quote from the Scottish Government suggest the Hunz will get away with this

Sport Minister Shona Robison said Rangers current plight was "a concerning situation for everyone involved in Scottish football".

She said: "Football is our national game and it is now for the administrators to take forward the process of assessing the business and securing an outcome in the best interests of the club, its staff, supporters and the game of football as a whole in Scotland."

...and here was thinking that one of the main roles of the Administrators is actually to try to sort out a fair deal for creditors - including us as taxpayers in this case?

I think people forget how entrenched Rangers are in every nook and cranny of scottish society. I think they will somehow get out of this relatively unscathed due to people in supposedly impartial positions who will look after them. Even people with no interests in football will be worried about being traceable as an individual who helped pull the trigger. Most of the media are already in tears and not once has anyone mentioned that this is their own fault.
This is a dark day all right but not for the reasons they are all stating.

[SteveHFC]

I would like to thank Glasgow Rangers Football Club for some wonderful memories over the years.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40735000/jpg/_40735988_ivansproule203.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41294000/jpg/_41294520_oconnor270.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Football/Pix/pictures/2010/11/10/1289428184833/Hibernians-Francis-Dickoh-005.jpg

[TornadoHibby]

I'm not quite so sure its that clear cut? This is a huge case, even by british standards. And the right thing has to be seen to be done. Gone are the days of running roughshod over folk. Tax payers are keen these days to see companies pay just what they owe, and the law is the law. I dont think this can just be swept under the carpet, they might get away with paying less, but it will be transparent, and there for everyone to see.

In PR terms I agree, in £ terms not so! :cb

[CropleyWasGod]

Rangers will be back to normal in 1-2 years, playing in the same stadium but with all the debt wiped out.

How so?

[blackpoolhibs]

In PR terms I agree, in £ terms not so! :cb

:agree: Thats what i was meaning to say, and every media person in the land will be looking in on it. The BRITISH :greengrin tax payer wants to see things done right, not everyone in the uk is a hun apologist, they will need to do things by the book, there are a lot of people out there who will try their hardest to make sure thats the case. :greengrin

[Gatecrasher]

Anyone else hear the rubbish being spouted on talk sport just now? Scottish football should help rangers in their time of need :rolleyes:

[poolman]

I would like to thank Glasgow Rangers Football Club for some wonderful memories over the years.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40735000/jpg/_40735988_ivansproule203.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41294000/jpg/_41294520_oconnor270.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Football/Pix/pictures/2010/11/10/1289428184833/Hibernians-Francis-Dickoh-005.jpg


I concur :agree:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLV-DCTD2OA

[easty]

Rangers will be back to normal in 1-2 years, playing in the same stadium but with all the debt wiped out.

I agree, more or less, I can't see much changing in Scottish football due to this. Celtic will have the next few leagues won with Rangers second, then it'll be back to the way it's been for years.

And I don't believe they'll have 'learnt thier lesson' either, in 5 years time they'll live outwith thier means, knowing that the consequences aren't all that terrible.

I'd love to be wrong though.

[HibeeDave]

While they are in administration, I am sure that the administrator will wield their vote.

Would the administrators job not be finished by the time to vote on the newly created Rangers looking for entry? Therefore they would not have a vote.

Don't count on Hearts voting for them either, do they not stand to lose out on the balance from Lee Wallaces transfer fee?

[soupy]

Anyone else hear the rubbish being spouted on talk sport just now? Scottish football should help rangers in their time of need :rolleyes:

Aye, thum, a load o tripe...

[Smidge]

Would the administrators job not be finished by the time to vote on the newly created Rangers looking for entry? Therefore they would not have a vote.

Don't count on Hearts voting for them either, do they not stand to lose out on the balance from Lee Wallaces transfer fee?

No, don't think so as it is likely to be a condition of any deal to bring them out of administration or for someone acquiring the assets in liquidation that there is a continuation of SPL membership.

[Twa Cairpets]

Would the administrators job not be finished by the time to vote on the newly created Rangers looking for entry? Therefore they would not have a vote.

Don't count on Hearts voting for them either, do they not stand to lose out on the balance from Lee Wallaces transfer fee?

The administration doesnt affect their league status - that'll only happen if they're liquidated.

Liquidated

Rangers

Sounds so nice when you say it together.

Liq-uid-ated

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

If Rangers were admitted straight back into the SPL it would finish me off for good with Scottish Football.

Even though I only attend very rarely these days I sent my mate a txt saying exactly the same thing about an hour ago. You would seriously have to ask "Whats the point?"

[.Sean.]

This is giving me the Valentines Day horn.

[cwilliamson85]

What is the punishment for not being able to fulfil games?

Is it like the SFA discipline fines were it gets doubled every time the person / team offends?

[Mikey]

If Rangers fold and re-emerge as a new company they should be hoofed down to the 3rd division.

It would be absolutely ludicrous for them to kick off next season in the SPL with no debts.

[ScottB]

What is the punishment for not being able to fulfil games?

Is it like the SFA discipline fines were it gets doubled every time the person / team offends?

Livi got punted to the 3rd division for it, but that was the SFL.

I'd think certainly the opposing team would be awarded set 3 nil wins perhaps? But then you could argue that's unfair on the other clubs.

I guess it depends if it's 1 or 2 games, or if they can't guarantee fulfilling any games, in the later case they'd surely have to be booted out of the league. Can any one remember any plans that were made when Gretna were clinging on? Certainly expect Rangers to be forwarded TV / Prize money ahead of schedule to try and keep them going till seasons end.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

This is giving me the Valentines Day horn.

I get the feeling that a few people could end up shooting prematurely about this situation.

[KeithTheHibby]

Anyone else hear the rubbish being spouted on talk sport just now? Scottish football should help rangers in their time of need :rolleyes:

Those english ****s were saying exactly the same yesterday, ****in morons.

For a start they are not close enough to scottish football to form such an opinion and secondly the huns would have been offski down to the EPL if they had been allowed.

They don't give a **** about scottish football so why should scottish football give a **** about them?

I hope it's a slow painful death.

[Paisley Hibby]

If Rangers fold and re-emerge as a new company they should be hoofed down to the 3rd division.

It would be absolutely ludicrous for them to kick off next season in the SPL with no debts.

I agree - but that is exactly what is going to happen. It's probably been Craig *****'s plan all along. And to add insult to injury, it's going to be funded by we taxpayers.

[Spike Mandela]

I get the feeling that a few people could end up shooting prematurely about this situation.

We are looking at Motherwell on a slightly bigger scale. A few players and office staff will sadly lose their jobs and creditors will get shafted. Meanwhile Motherwell look likely to qualify for Europe this year.:rolleyes:

[HFC 0-7]

Livi got punted to the 3rd division for it, but that was the SFL.

I'd think certainly the opposing team would be awarded set 3 nil wins perhaps? But then you could argue that's unfair on the other clubs.

I guess it depends if it's 1 or 2 games, or if they can't guarantee fulfilling any games, in the later case they'd surely have to be booted out of the league. Can any one remember any plans that were made when Gretna were clinging on? Certainly expect Rangers to be forwarded TV / Prize money ahead of schedule to try and keep them going till seasons end.

Think they would still be able to fulfil their games, it would just be behind closed doors but obviously that would cause other issues as there would be a lack of income and ST holders would not be happy.

[frazeHFC]

officialpompey: @RFC_Official All the best to all the staff and fans. We are thinking of you in these tough times. Good luck. #togetherwearestronger


'together we are stronger' - cos financially they can help each other right enough. :cool2:

[the_ginger_hibee]

I agree - but that is exactly what is going to happen. It's probably been Craig *****'s plan all along. And to add insult to injury, it's going to be funded by we taxpayers.

So essentially, we, the taxpayer have funded years of overspending and dominance by the most odious, corrupt, backward organisation ever? While clubs who 'play the game' the right way are left behind scrimping cash and offering pittance in comparison? And at the end of it all, the only real damage is minus 10 points in a essentially 'dead' title race?

What a mad world we live in....Makes you wonder who the real mugs actually are...

[TheEastTerrace]

If Rangers fold and re-emerge as a new company they should be hoofed down to the 3rd division.

It would be absolutely ludicrous for them to kick off next season in the SPL with no debts.

If this happened, that would be it for me and Scottish football - would be saying 'spend your way to oblivion, but hey it's ok, liquidate, dump the debt and rise from the ashes as a phoenix club and we'll ratify you.'

Disgusting.

[nonshinyfinish]

officialpompey: @RFC_Official All the best to all the staff and fans. We are thinking of you in these tough times. Good luck. #togetherwearestronger


'together we are stronger' - cos financially they can help each other right enough. :cool2:

All of these thieving pricks can GTF.

[sambajustice]

Surely though the Huns are going to have to lay off players, if they lay off so many surely they are not a shoe in for 2nd place. How can they be allowed to keep guys like McGregor, McCulloch, Naismith, Lafferty, ie the bigger earners?

People keep going on about Motherwell but look at Portsmouth down south, they've gone into Administration again!! I dont think it will be easy for the huns. Surely they are going to have to cut their cloth accordingly and pay wages more in line with the rest of the SPL clubs??

[Matty_Jack04]

Surely it can't be as easy to rack up massive debts then call in admin and pay 10p for every pound due?? If that's the case it's no wonder the country is screwed

[Kaiser1962]

Would the administrators job not be finished by the time to vote on the newly created Rangers looking for entry? Therefore they would not have a vote.

Don't count on Hearts voting for them either, do they not stand to lose out on the balance from Lee Wallaces transfer fee?


No. The SPL will pay Hearts with money deducted from Rangers share of prize money/TV money should it become necessary.

[HFC 0-7]

Did I just hear on Sky Sports that Rangers also owe 9 million to HMRC to do with the takeover of the club and PAYE since the takeover? If thats the case, where has the money been going? The ticketus money?

[SteveHFC]

I've just heard Rangers have entered administration and been docked 10 points, truly a sad day for anti-football.

[Hibrandenburg]

If this happened, that would be it for me and Scottish football - would be saying 'spend your way to oblivion, but hey it's ok, liquidate, dump the debt and rise from the ashes as a phoenix club and we'll ratify you.'

Disgusting.
Only if you're one of the mankies though. If the tax payer is left holding the baby here and the sum total of Rangers' punishment is a 10 point reduction, then I've had it with Scottish football.

If the rest of the SPL members let this happen then **** them too.

"Oh what a parcel of rogues in a nation".

[blindsummit]

So essentially, we, the taxpayer have funded years of overspending and dominance by the most odious, corrupt, backward organisation ever? While clubs who 'play the game' the right way are left behind scrimping cash and offering pittance in comparison? And at the end of it all, the only real damage is minus 10 points in a essentially 'dead' title race?

What a mad world we live in....Makes you wonder who the real mugs actually are...

Pretty much hammer meets head of nail there. Scottish football is a joke. Cheats prosper and will continue to do so.

After my initial glee at Ranger's plight wore off I'm actually quite angry and depressed at what's about to happen.

The political, legal, financial and media establishment will close ranks around their beloved Rangers. Lots of hand signals and aprons helping out there too.
Our football "authorities" will bend over backwards to break what little feeble rules they have, to accomodate Rangers.
Celtic will have a good laugh, but will then close ranks as they need their Ugly Sisters partners to feed off in that bigoted, symbiotic parasitical way they have developed.
Many other SPHell clubs will follow suit as well, fearing the loss of the crumbs from the table.

The outome will be:
A club called Rangers will still be in the SPL next season and competing in Europe.
They will have no debt and will continue to spend way over the odds, stealing players from well run clubs as they go.
Their fans will continue to be moronic, cretinous, bigoted glory hunters.
The existing creditors, especially the taxpayer, will be told to go pound sand and will lose everything.
Cheats and bullies will continue to prosper in Scotland.
Those who play by the moral rules will continue to struggle.

I hope to gawd I'm wrong and that some semblance of payback and natural justice will prevail, but knowing the history of Scottish Football and the Scottish establishment, I won't hold my breath.

[Part/Time Supporter]

We are looking at Motherwell on a slightly bigger scale. A few players and office staff will sadly lose their jobs and creditors will get shafted. Meanwhile Motherwell look likely to qualify for Europe this year.:rolleyes:

It's different from Motherwell. Most of their debt was owed to John Boyle, who eventually decided to write off that debt. Whyte can't do that with HMRC.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Surely it can't be as easy to rack up massive debts then call in admin and pay 10p for every pound due?? If that's the case it's no wonder the country is screwed

It isn't. The creditors would need to vote to accept that.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Did I just hear on Sky Sports that Rangers also owe 9 million to HMRC to do with the takeover of the club and PAYE since the takeover? If thats the case, where has the money been going? The ticketus money?

Confirmed by the administrator

http://www.mcr.uk.com/duff-amp-phelps-appointed-administrators-of-rangers-football-club.html

[blindsummit]

Anyone else hear the rubbish being spouted on talk sport just now? Scottish football should help rangers in their time of need :rolleyes:

Help them! Frackin help them! What crack pipe are they smoking! After they have bled the rest of the game dry, and cheated and shafted their way to trophy after trophy!

I have to go lie down now as my blood pressure is peaking!

[heretoday]

Rangers are now some distance behind Celtic and the title would appear to be sown up but didn't they overcome a similar margin earlier in the season?

[Hibrandenburg]

Pretty much hammer meets head of nail there. Scottish football is a joke. Cheats prosper and will continue to do so.

After my initial glee at Ranger's plight wore off I'm actually quite angry and depressed at what's about to happen.

The political, legal, financial and media establishment will close ranks around their beloved Rangers. Lots of hand signals and aprons helping out there too.
Our football "authorities" will bend over backwards to break what little feeble rules they have, to accomodate Rangers.
Celtic will have a good laugh, but will then close ranks as they need their Ugly Sisters partners to feed off in that bigoted, symbiotic parasitical way they have developed.
Many other SPHell clubs will follow suit as well, fearing the loss of the crumbs from the table.

The outome will be:
A club called Rangers will still be in the SPL next season and competing in Europe.
They will have no debt and will continue to spend way over the odds, stealing players from well run clubs as they go.
Their fans will continue to be moronic, cretinous, bigoted glory hunters.
The existing creditors, especially the taxpayer, will be told to go pound sand and will lose everything.
Cheats and bullies will continue to prosper in Scotland.
Those who play by the moral rules will continue to struggle.

I hope to gawd I'm wrong and that some semblance of payback and natural justice will prevail, but knowing the history of Scottish Football and the Scottish establishment, I won't hold my breath.

That sums up the situation and my feelings perfectly.

The smaller clubs in the league now need to make sure these crooked leeches never get to bleed them dry again. However I'd bet my house that they'll just roll over let themselves get shafted again.

[Part/Time Supporter]

That sums up the situation and my feelings perfectly.

The smaller clubs in the league now need to make sure these crooked leeches never get to bleed them dry again. However I'd bet my house that they'll just roll over let themselves get shafted again.

Email Hibs and the SFA and tell them what's you think.

[Elephant Stone]

It looks like they're due £9m in unpaid VAT from after Craig Whyte took over.

Excellent.

http://www.mcr.uk.com/duff-amp-phelps-appointed-administrators-of-rangers-football-club.html

[blindsummit]

Pretty much hammer meets head of nail there. Scottish football is a joke. Cheats prosper and will continue to do so.

After my initial glee at Ranger's plight wore off I'm actually quite angry and depressed at what's about to happen.

The political, legal, financial and media establishment will close ranks around their beloved Rangers. Lots of hand signals and aprons helping out there too.
Our football "authorities" will bend over backwards to break what little feeble rules they have, to accomodate Rangers.
Celtic will have a good laugh, but will then close ranks as they need their Ugly Sisters partners to feed off in that bigoted, symbiotic parasitical way they have developed.
Many other SPHell clubs will follow suit as well, fearing the loss of the crumbs from the table.

The outome will be:
A club called Rangers will still be in the SPL next season and competing in Europe.
They will have no debt and will continue to spend way over the odds, stealing players from well run clubs as they go.
Their fans will continue to be moronic, cretinous, bigoted glory hunters.
The existing creditors, especially the taxpayer, will be told to go pound sand and will lose everything.
Cheats and bullies will continue to prosper in Scotland.
Those who play by the moral rules will continue to struggle.

I hope to gawd I'm wrong and that some semblance of payback and natural justice will prevail, but knowing the history of Scottish Football and the Scottish establishment, I won't hold my breath.

and I forgpt to add, they'll still be playing at Ibrox, still have Murray Park and will still be playing in the same colours. I bet.

[Smidge]

It looks like they're due £9m in unpaid VAT from after Craig Whyte took over.

Excellent.

http://www.mcr.uk.com/duff-amp-phelps-appointed-administrators-of-rangers-football-club.html


Whyte has often trumpeted in the last few weeks that there is a £10m working capital shortfall on an annual basis for Rangers. Therefore, if they are also due £9m to HMRC - over and above the big tax case - then there must be a cash shortfall of £19m currently on an annual basis. Stunning mismanagement if that is the case.

[Twa Cairpets]

Pretty much hammer meets head of nail there. Scottish football is a joke. Cheats prosper and will continue to do so.

After my initial glee at Ranger's plight wore off I'm actually quite angry and depressed at what's about to happen.

The political, legal, financial and media establishment will close ranks around their beloved Rangers. Lots of hand signals and aprons helping out there too.
Our football "authorities" will bend over backwards to break what little feeble rules they have, to accomodate Rangers.
Celtic will have a good laugh, but will then close ranks as they need their Ugly Sisters partners to feed off in that bigoted, symbiotic parasitical way they have developed.
Many other SPHell clubs will follow suit as well, fearing the loss of the crumbs from the table.

The outome will be:
A club called Rangers will still be in the SPL next season and competing in Europe.
They will have no debt and will continue to spend way over the odds, stealing players from well run clubs as they go.
Their fans will continue to be moronic, cretinous, bigoted glory hunters.
The existing creditors, especially the taxpayer, will be told to go pound sand and will lose everything.
Cheats and bullies will continue to prosper in Scotland.
Those who play by the moral rules will continue to struggle.

I hope to gawd I'm wrong and that some semblance of payback and natural justice will prevail, but knowing the history of Scottish Football and the Scottish establishment, I won't hold my breath.

Defining period for Scottish football.

IF they are managed out of administration and carry on, then they've played by the rules, such as they are, and we can wail and gnash our teeth but ultimately they've been treated the same as Motherwell.

IF, as I fervently hope, they are liquidated, they MUST start at th ebottom of the pile and come up through the divisions. Anything less will mean the total ruination of any trust football fans have in the administration of thegame in this country. I think club owners/chairman MUST understand the depth of feeling that their customers - us - have on this matter. If Hibs voted to re-instate Rangers, I really dont believe I could stomach that. It would be a betrayal of my support for my club, and I think it would be a tipping point for me to say - nah, enoughs enough, I'll get involved with an amateur team or go and watch Linlithgow Rose more often.

[truehibernian]

Whyte has often trumpeted in the last few weeks that there is a £10m working capital shortfall on an annual basis for Rangers. Therefore, if they are also due £9m to HMRC - over and above the big tax case - then there must be a cash shortfall of £19m currently on an annual basis. Stunning mismanagement if that is the case.

Makes the signing of Cousin all the more criminal. A morally and financially corrupt football club in my opinion, with quite disgusting fans. They shame the country abroad and at home. FIFA, UEFA, the SFA and SPL have stood back for too long and allowed them to extract the urine. Just a horrible football club at the end of the day who I would happily see disappear without a trace.

[Hibrandenburg]

Defining period for Scottish football.

IF they are managed out of administration and carry on, then they've played by the rules, such as they are, and we can wail and gnash our teeth but ultimately they've been treated the same as Motherwell.

IF, as I fervently hope, they are liquidated, they MUST start at th ebottom of the pile and come up through the divisions. Anything less will mean the total ruination of any trust football fans have in the administration of thegame in this country. I think club owners/chairman MUST understand the depth of feeling that their customers - us - have on this matter. If Hibs voted to re-instate Rangers, I really dont believe I could stomach that. It would be a betrayal of my support for my club, and I think it would be a tipping point for me to say - nah, enoughs enough, I'll get involved with an amateur team or go and watch Linlithgow Rose more often.
Yep, that's the case with me too. Why should I ever buy another ticket for Easter Road again when I know fine and well that any decent young players coming up through our system will end up getting splinters in their arse through in Glasgow. They have consistently destroyed our teams over decades by buying up our talent and as it would appear, they've been using our money to do so.

The SPL and Scottish football can get to **** if they let the Huns off the hook in any way.

[HFC 0-7]

Whyte has often trumpeted in the last few weeks that there is a £10m working capital shortfall on an annual basis for Rangers. Therefore, if they are also due £9m to HMRC - over and above the big tax case - then there must be a cash shortfall of £19m currently on an annual basis. Stunning mismanagement if that is the case.

Not to mentioned the 24.4 million from ticketus which has been eaten up somewhere. Personally I think the money has been saved and transferred to another company so that Rangers will immediately have 'investment' when they exit administration or a phoenix company is born. What is interesting is that HMRC did not want to put rangers into administration over the big tax case but for the sum of 9 million in unpaid taxes. I wonder what will happen if Rangers exit administration and then the big tax case hits?

[GloryGlory]

Just a thought - maybe Ra Sellik should apply for administration, too, and both OF clubs will go forward with no debt. One could be reconstituted as Soap Dodge City FC, the other as Tax Dodge City FC.

You heard it here first! :greengrin

[Twa Cairpets]

Yep, that's the case with me too. Why should I ever buy another ticket for Easter Road again when I know fine and well that any decent young players coming up through our system will end up getting splinters in their arse through in Glasgow. They have consistently destroyed our teams over decades by buying up our talent and as it would appear, they've been using our money to do so.

The SPL and Scottish football can get to **** if they let the Huns off the hook in any way.

Despite the wailings from the likes of Talk Sport and Hun journos, the real danger for Scottish Football is if (on liquidation) they are allowed back in to the SPL unharmed, NOT if they go away to div 3. The haemorrhaging of fans from everywhere else would be massive. If they think attendances are dropping at the minute, wait till you see how many are interested in going to watch a league where FC Newhun have been instantly re-admitted.

[LeithBoozy]

Defining period for Scottish football.

IF they are managed out of administration and carry on, then they've played by the rules, such as they are, and we can wail and gnash our teeth but ultimately they've been treated the same as Motherwell.

IF, as I fervently hope, they are liquidated, they MUST start at th ebottom of the pile and come up through the divisions. Anything less will mean the total ruination of any trust football fans have in the administration of thegame in this country. I think club owners/chairman MUST understand the depth of feeling that their customers - us - have on this matter. If Hibs voted to re-instate Rangers, I really dont believe I could stomach that. It would be a betrayal of my support for my club, and I think it would be a tipping point for me to say - nah, enoughs enough, I'll get involved with an amateur team or go and watch Linlithgow Rose more often. Settle, do they not play in maroon?.Anyway what are me going to do without our feeder team. :greengrin

[col02]

At least Hearts with Romanov in charge eventually pay their bills. Rangers it would appear with their Rik Mayall lookalike chairman are going to screw anyone and everyone they owe money to! Self employed people get hounded by the taxman to pay their bills in full completion so I do not see why a morally bankrupt club like Rangers should try manipulate the system to avoid paying what they are owe!

[Twa Cairpets]

Settle, do they not play in maroon?.Anyway what are me going to do without our feeder team. :greengrin

They play in what I believe to be deep red. I dont use the "M" word. Good football in the juniors though, and the grounds 500 yards from my front door.

[GloryGlory]

At least Hearts with Romanov in charge eventually pay their bills. Rangers it would appear with their Rik Mayall lookalike chairman are going to screw anyone and everyone they owe money to! Self employed people get hounded by the taxman to pay their bills in full completion so I do not see why a morally bankrupt club like Rangers should try manipulate the system to avoid paying what they are owe!

Yes, and nurses or low paid families on tax credits or any other ordinary working person will get hounded to pay back a few hundred quid if HMRC happen to undercharge.

[GloryGlory]

They play in what I believe to be deep red. I dont use the "M" word. Good football in the juniors though, and the grounds 500 yards from my front door.

Pantone 666. The diabolical bloodied turd! :greengrin

[stokesmessiah]

It looks like they're due £9m in unpaid VAT from after Craig Whyte took over.

Excellent.

http://www.mcr.uk.com/duff-amp-phelps-appointed-administrators-of-rangers-football-club.html

Is that the same Craig Whyte who denied it in his Scotsman interview only 9 days ago.

"Q: There is also talk, on top of everything else, of £5m owed in VAT. Are you sitting on a Mount Everest of debt?A: There’s a lot of media hostility towards myself and Rangers. It irks me sometimes. The VAT thing is rubbish. I have regular dialogue with HMRC about a number of issues, in particular the Employment Benefit Trust case. All sorts of things. I talk to them often, I know exactly what they’re doing and what they’re thinking and there’s no issue on that front."

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/sport/interview_craig_whyte_chairman_of_rangers_fc_1_209 8205

[EuanH78]

Yep, that's the case with me too. Why should I ever buy another ticket for Easter Road again when I know fine and well that any decent young players coming up through our system will end up getting splinters in their arse through in Glasgow. They have consistently destroyed our teams over decades by buying up our talent and as it would appear, they've been using our money to do so.

The SPL and Scottish football can get to **** if they let the Huns off the hook in any way.

Agree completely, no point in anyone else even taking to the pitch if the Huns get away with this. I think it might be the end for me and Scottish football. I think the saddest thing about that is, Hibs (the team I love and support) hasnt done anything to make me feel that way. It's those that run the game and those odious cretins at Ipox. Cancerous horrible club.

[Pretty Boy]

Defining period for Scottish football.

IF they are managed out of administration and carry on, then they've played by the rules, such as they are, and we can wail and gnash our teeth but ultimately they've been treated the same as Motherwell.

IF, as I fervently hope, they are liquidated, they MUST start at th ebottom of the pile and come up through the divisions. Anything less will mean the total ruination of any trust football fans have in the administration of thegame in this country. I think club owners/chairman MUST understand the depth of feeling that their customers - us - have on this matter. If Hibs voted to re-instate Rangers, I really dont believe I could stomach that. It would be a betrayal of my support for my club, and I think it would be a tipping point for me to say - nah, enoughs enough, I'll get involved with an amateur team or go and watch Linlithgow Rose more often.

Excellent post and sums up my feelings well.

If Rangers were liquidated and Hibs voted to allow them to retain SPL status I'd be finished. There isn't a lot that would make me say that bit such a scenario would do it.

I'm sure i wouldn't be the only one either.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

It looks like they're due £9m in unpaid VAT from after Craig Whyte took over.

Excellent.

http://www.mcr.uk.com/duff-amp-phelps-appointed-administrators-of-rangers-football-club.html

According to STV News the latest HMRC Case is nothing to do with the big tax case, but, PAYE etc since Whyte took over, that makes me feel a lot happier about the situation (I think!).

[YehButNoBut]

Details below of what HMRC charge individuals if late with their self assessment returns, it really p's me off that the Huns could get away with paying what they are due, they are cheating every one of us...................................scu*bags.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From April 2011, if a Self Assessment Tax Return is filed late or tax paid late, then the following penalties will apply:

Penalties for filing late

One day late and you will be charged an initial penalty of £100 (even if you have no tax to pay or you have already paid all the tax you owe).

Three months late and you will be charged an automatic daily penalty of £10 per day, up to a maximum of £900.

Six months late and you will be charged further penalties, which are the greater of 5% of tax due or £300.

Twelve months late and you will be charged yet more penalties, which are the greater of 5% of tax due or £300. In particularly serious cases you face a higher penalty of up to 100% of the tax due.

Penalties for paying late

Thirty days late and you will be charged an initial penalty of 5% of the tax unpaid at that date.

Six months late and you will be charged a further penalty of 5% of the tax that is still paid unpaid.

Twelve months late and you will be charged a further penalty of 5% of the tax that is still unpaid.

...in addition to interest being charged.

[Paisley Hibby]

Just a thought - maybe Ra Sellik should apply for administration, too, and both OF clubs will go forward with no debt. One could be reconstituted as Soap Dodge City FC, the other as Tax Dodge City FC.

You heard it here first! :greengrin

:top marks

[green glory]

All is still well. Today's shenanigans were only concerned with the current debt INCLUDING 9 million in unpaid tax since Whyte took over. The thermonuclear scenario is still to come. HMRC have made it very plain they're pursueing all monies which with today's revelations about the 9 mil may total 86.5 million. They're badly badly ******. Best case scenario is liquidation with The land at Ibrox sold.

[Makaveli]

I'll be more than a bit annoyed if they get away without paying the full tax bill (given how individuals and small business are treated), but there's nowt we can do on that front.

If the club "re-organises" and the SPL/SFA/whoever else let them weasel their way back in then I'm finished with Scottish football.

[PaulSmith]

http://radioplayer.clyde1.com/

Could be interesting

[JoeTortolanoFanClub]

This is about more than football. It involves theft from the general public on a grand scale. Just think how many schools and hospitals, teachers and doctors and nurses £49m could fund.

I do feel a wee bit sorry for the ordinary decent Rangers fans though. So here is a wee bit advice for the pair of them for next season's league campaign...if your opening fixture is away to East Stirlingshire, please remember that they are currently groundsharing at Stenhousemuir. :devil:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Excellent post and sums up my feelings well.

If Rangers were liquidated and Hibs voted to allow them to retain SPL status I'd be finished. There isn't a lot that would make me say that bit such a scenario would do it.

I'm sure i wouldn't be the only one either.

I'd have to agree with this.

[GloryGlory]

Details below of what HMRC charge individuals if late with their self assessment returns, it really p's me off that the Huns could get away with paying what they are due, they are cheating every one of us...................................scu*bags.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From April 2011, if a Self Assessment Tax Return is filed late or tax paid late, then the following penalties will apply:

Penalties for filing late

One day late and you will be charged an initial penalty of £100 (even if you have no tax to pay or you have already paid all the tax you owe).

Three months late and you will be charged an automatic daily penalty of £10 per day, up to a maximum of £900.

Six months late and you will be charged further penalties, which are the greater of 5% of tax due or £300.

Twelve months late and you will be charged yet more penalties, which are the greater of 5% of tax due or £300. In particularly serious cases you face a higher penalty of up to 100% of the tax due.

Penalties for paying late

Thirty days late and you will be charged an initial penalty of 5% of the tax unpaid at that date.

Six months late and you will be charged a further penalty of 5% of the tax that is still paid unpaid.

Twelve months late and you will be charged a further penalty of 5% of the tax that is still unpaid.

...in addition to interest being charged.


The wee-er you are, the smaller the amount due the harder they hit you!

[PaulSmith]

I'll be more than a bit annoyed if they get away without paying the full tax bill (given how individuals and small business are treated), but there's nowt we can do on that front.

If the club "re-organises" and the SPL/SFA/whoever else let them weasel their way back in then I'm finished with Scottish football.

I feel that way right now, it might fade but another kick in the hee haws.

[Northernhibee]

I'd have to agree with this.

Yep, I'd have to question my loyalty to Hibs if we were to vote Rangers back into the SPL.

[CyberSauzee]

I like the Daily Mash's insightful journalism on this. Really puts things into perspective I feel.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4892&Itemid=26



Rangers pledges sectarianism as usual
14-02-12
MURDEROUS chant enabler Rangers last night pledged financial meltdown will not interfere with all the hating.

Going into administration could cost the Glasgow giants 10 points in the Scottish 'Premier' League, putting them within 25 points of everyone apart from Celtic, but the club urged fans to remain positive and continue thinking up new rhymes for 'Ratzinger'.

A spokesman said: "As long as there's a Rangers, there will always be one half of Glasgow wishing the other half dead. Everyone should carry on with their sectarian grudges and post-match domestic abuse as normal."

The club faces a potentially fatal £49m tax bill while season ticket sales have dropped since a ban on singing songs about being 'up to one's knees in Fenian blood'.

Now Rangers officials are to meet with UK Jihad 'tsar' Abu Qatada to discuss new ways of making religious hatred more revenue dynamic.
Ideas include blackmailing priests, **** the Pope Bingo and an iPhone app that can identify Catholics by measuring the width of their skulls.

Meanwhile, Celtic fans have set up a Rangers rescue fund after realising that without their Old Firm rivals their lives would be utterly hollow. Celtic fan Bill McKay said: "You've seen the football. No-one is coming here for the football."

The Rangers spokesman added: "It would be very easy to play the blame game, but the unavoidable truth is that the inland revenue is now a wholly-owned subsidiary of Opus Dei."

The club also pledged to continue buying carpet-baggers who couldn't hack it in a proper league and getting its arse handed to it in Europe by teams with names like Vlodzy Kravnaj.

[Hibrandenburg]

Email Hibs and the SFA and tell them what's you think.

Would be the proper thing to do. However I'm a "Just nipping out for a pack of fags" type guy. ;-)

[Ozyhibby]

If rangers can come through this unscathed then I will no longer be supporting Hibs or Scottish football in general.
I can just about handle a crap league, but a corrupt league which turns a blind eye to blatant cheating is not for me.
I don't just mean not going back, I mean no longer supporting the club at all, no strips for the kids etc.
I'm certain I'm not alone in thinking like this and Hibs will have to take this into account in their actions towards a new rangers entity.

[beensaidbefore]

I like the Daily Mash's insightful journalism on this. Really puts things into perspective I feel.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4892&Itemid=26


:faf:

[blackpoolhibs]

If rangers can come through this unscathed then I will no longer be supporting Hibs or Scottish football in general.
I can just about handle a crap league, but a corrupt league which turns a blind eye to blatant cheating is not for me.
I don't just mean not going back, I mean no longer supporting the club at all, no strips for the kids etc.
I'm certain I'm not alone in thinking like this and Hibs will have to take this into account in their actions towards a new rangers entity.

:agree:
I think there might be a few more like you thinking this. This could be the straw that breaks the camels back for some?

[Gatecrasher]

If rangers can come through this unscathed then I will no longer be supporting Hibs or Scottish football in general.
I can just about handle a crap league, but a corrupt league which turns a blind eye to blatant cheating is not for me.
I don't just mean not going back, I mean no longer supporting the club at all, no strips for the kids etc.
I'm certain I'm not alone in thinking like this and Hibs will have to take this into account in their actions towards a new rangers entity.
Why should Hibs suffer? Its not Hibs fault if they get away with it.

[Pete]

Why would anyone stop supporting hibs over this?

Mental!

[TornadoHibby]

Sorrybut I'm trying to catch up with this. Can someone explain why appointment of Duff Phelps is an issue? I'm guessing too close to Whyte but in what way?

It's not uncommon for restructuring consultants to work with struggling businesses to assist them assess their current financial position and the options for turning the business around from an operating level that is unsustainable or from markets that are uneconomic for them!

It's also not uncommon following such a period of working together with a struggling business for that same restructuring practice to then act as administrator through one or more of its partners who are suitably qualified to carry out such work!

[Ozyhibby]

Why should Hibs suffer? Its not Hibs fault if they get away with it.

It will be up to the rest of the teams in the SPL to approve the re-entry of a new Hun FC. If they do so without extracting a considerable pound of flesh then it will be Hibs fault.

[Spike Mandela]

Why would anyone stop supporting hibs over this?

Mental!

It's called disillusionment.

If the establishment contrive to cynically ease Rangers through their troubles to the point a white knight comes through when admin is over, with creditors shafted, and starts outspending us all and nicking our players many of us who have seen it all before will be saying " what is the point" of supporting a frugal responsible team in a corrupt league weighed in the OFs favour.

[I'm_cabbaged]

It will be up to the rest of the teams in the SPL to approve the re-entry of a new Hun FC. If they do so without extracting a considerable pound of flesh then it will be Hibs fault.

But there's no going to be a new hun fc?

[erskine-hibby]

Bottom line...new team should start from the bottom.

[Ozyhibby]

It's called disillusionment.

If the establishment contrive to cynically ease Rangers through their troubles to the point a white knight comes through when admin is over, with creditors shafted, and starts outspending us all and nicking our players many of us who have seen it all before will be saying " what is the point" of supporting a frugal responsible team in a corrupt league weighed in the OFs favour.

Exactly

[CyberSauzee]

And buried amongst the news from yesterday is this snippet about one of Whyte's companies. Can't pay his taxes and now he's got his hand in the biscuit tin as well...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-17021584


Pritchard Stockbrokers banned from trading

A stockbroking company which has Rangers owner Craig Whyte as board secretary has been banned from further trading by the financial regulator.

The Financial Services Authority has ruled that Pritchard Stockbrokers had used client money for its own expenses, "thereby putting client money at risk".

[greenginger]

What the SFA, the football media, and all the rest are saying is Scottish Football revolves around and exists for the sole purpose of providing four Bigot- Fests per season.

These games are little more than circus freak shows and depend for there "entertainment" value displays of raw hatred and songs about murdering members of the opposition.

If Scottish Football is no more than this they might as well shut up shop now.

[erskine-hibby]

They will next season. bottom of the SPL. Had we had a SPL2 that might have been different but we don't. We have the SPL which Rangers are a part of and the SFL, which they are not.
That I understand, but as the SPL I feel that it should be that ANY club that goes into administration/liquidation should no longer be part of the SPL. If this is allowed to stand, and rangers are allowed to get away with it, what is the the point of a SPL???? After all SPL clubs get relegated every season, so whats the difference???

[Bristolhibby]

Interesting post in the TAMB from some guy who seems to know what he is talking about.

Bad times for the Huns. We MUST *** them at every opportunity if this scenario comes to pass.


Here's the deal:

Rangers has to go bust - liquidated - for CW's plan to work. They know they will lose the big tax case. If that happens, HMRC are biggest creditor (even allowing for being unsecured), and their application to appoint an administrator would likelyhave been successful

Because they are currently 'only' owed £9m, they did not have enough sway to convince judge. So, CW gets his guys in. They will be professional, but will also have pre-discussed what to do next.

A quick CVA, and exit from administration is useless to rangers/CW because it would happen before big tax bill hits. That is not currently a debt, so can't be included in any settlement. RFC 1873 would exit admin and last about a month before being back in, with HMRC in far stronger position.

In any case, HMrC will never agree to CVA - it meets none if the criteria, and lack of current PAyE/VAT payments is nail in coffin for that. CW must know this, but will blame HMRC intransigence for eventual liquidation.

If the club goes completely bust, (liquidated, not admin), the assets can be sold to secured creditor's newco if no-one else loses out - which they won't if assets are worth same or less than secured credit. Then, RFC 2012 will own the assets, and will potentially be a football club. ( if there is any excess it will be distributed to unsecured creditors proportionately.)

When the tax case goes against oldco, it will have no impact, as RFC 1873 is already gone, and RFC2012 is a completely new entity. This only works with a liquidation.

RFC 2012 will then only be able to pick up RFC 1873's league role if the SPL agrees. There is a committee which decides if licences can be transferred. This means that all the clubs which have been burned by oldco (eg Hearts) and who have lost put on the pitch to big spending, will have two choices: 1) apply full sanctions and RfC2012 has to apply to rejoin at bottom of the league 2) swallow it, and agree a compromise in exchange for allowing playing licence to transfer (eg 15 points off for next three years). Hobson's choice for them, and The 10pt penalty is not applicable when liquidation occurs.

Rangers won't be in Europe for a number of years, even if 'successful' in liquidation strategy.

I think Whyte recycled his cash immediately, with Ticketus etc. They possibly have step-in rights to his securities to cover their payment. If not, they must be happy with cover - they're not daft. Whyte probably has £1 at risk, and a day 1 plan to abandon old Rangers, and their debts, transfer assets into newco, negotiate something short of new league application, and emerge with Ticketus getting revenues, and him owning a debt free RFC2012 for **** all. It's actually a reasonable and audacious plan if you've got the balls/morals for it.

Where i think he'll fall down is that creditors may have been alienated by his goings on, and will take legal action to tie it up for a long time. The profile is going to be higher than he anticpated, and also there's little chance that he'll pass director's qualifications now! Maybe his mate Ellis will..?

My bet is that because of legal actions, the liquidation and Phoenix co will struggle to happen in time, and RFC will not be in the league next year in any form.

Murray will not buy club back, even if he wanted to, for simple reason that he is allegedly skint. Also, from what I am understand, MIH also administered an EBT in similar fashion, and will be a victim of hMRC win at tribunal. The reason HMRC is so keen, is that RFC is tip of iceberg and is the test case which will establish precedent in many more cases with hundreds of millions at stake.

[jgl07]

If rangers can come through this unscathed then I will no longer be supporting Hibs or Scottish football in general.
I can just about handle a crap league, but a corrupt league which turns a blind eye to blatant cheating is not for me.
I don't just mean not going back, I mean no longer supporting the club at all, no strips for the kids etc.
I'm certain I'm not alone in thinking like this and Hibs will have to take this into account in their actions towards a new rangers entity.

We need an open letter to Hibs to inform them of this opinion.

I am sure that supporters of other clubs will feel the same. Maybe not Hearts as their turn will soon come.

[SteveHFC]

Click on the link and look at the bottom left of your screen :faf:

http://www.afc-chat....00 (http://www.afc-chat.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=28983&pid=709665&st=300&#entry709665)

[Gus Fring]

Just seen on Twitter that Cousin hasn't been registered with the SPL yet! Does that mean they can't sign him as they now have a transfer embargo in place?

[Cropley10]

Interesting post in the TAMB from some guy who seems to know what he is talking about.

Bad times for the Huns. We MUST *** them at every opportunity if this scenario comes to pass.


Here's the deal:

Rangers has to go bust - liquidated - for CW's plan to work. They know they will lose the big tax case. If that happens, HMRC are biggest creditor (even allowing for being unsecured), and their application to appoint an administrator would likelyhave been successful

Because they are currently 'only' owed £9m, they did not have enough sway to convince judge. So, CW gets his guys in. They will be professional, but will also have pre-discussed what to do next.

A quick CVA, and exit from administration is useless to rangers/CW because it would happen before big tax bill hits. That is not currently a debt, so can't be included in any settlement. RFC 1873 would exit admin and last about a month before being back in, with HMRC in far stronger position.

In any case, HMrC will never agree to CVA - it meets none if the criteria, and lack of current PAyE/VAT payments is nail in coffin for that. CW must know this, but will blame HMRC intransigence for eventual liquidation.

If the club goes completely bust, (liquidated, not admin), the assets can be sold to secured creditor's newco if no-one else loses out - which they won't if assets are worth same or less than secured credit. Then, RFC 2012 will own the assets, and will potentially be a football club. ( if there is any excess it will be distributed to unsecured creditors proportionately.)

When the tax case goes against oldco, it will have no impact, as RFC 1873 is already gone, and RFC2012 is a completely new entity. This only works with a liquidation.

RFC 2012 will then only be able to pick up RFC 1873's league role if the SPL agrees. There is a committee which decides if licences can be transferred. This means that all the clubs which have been burned by oldco (eg Hearts) and who have lost put on the pitch to big spending, will have two choices: 1) apply full sanctions and RfC2012 has to apply to rejoin at bottom of the league 2) swallow it, and agree a compromise in exchange for allowing playing licence to transfer (eg 15 points off for next three years). Hobson's choice for them, and The 10pt penalty is not applicable when liquidation occurs.

Rangers won't be in Europe for a number of years, even if 'successful' in liquidation strategy.

I think Whyte recycled his cash immediately, with Ticketus etc. They possibly have step-in rights to his securities to cover their payment. If not, they must be happy with cover - they're not daft. Whyte probably has £1 at risk, and a day 1 plan to abandon old Rangers, and their debts, transfer assets into newco, negotiate something short of new league application, and emerge with Ticketus getting revenues, and him owning a debt free RFC2012 for **** all. It's actually a reasonable and audacious plan if you've got the balls/morals for it.

Where i think he'll fall down is that creditors may have been alienated by his goings on, and will take legal action to tie it up for a long time. The profile is going to be higher than he anticpated, and also there's little chance that he'll pass director's qualifications now! Maybe his mate Ellis will..?

My bet is that because of legal actions, the liquidation and Phoenix co will struggle to happen in time, and RFC will not be in the league next year in any form.

Murray will not buy club back, even if he wanted to, for simple reason that he is allegedly skint. Also, from what I am understand, MIH also administered an EBT in similar fashion, and will be a victim of hMRC win at tribunal. The reason HMRC is so keen, is that RFC is tip of iceberg and is the test case which will establish precedent in many more cases with hundreds of millions at stake.

Interesting PoV but incorrect in a number of areas.

RFC 1873 do owe the tax man - the Big Tax Case is Rangers' appeal. Therefore it must appear as a liability, contingent or otherwise as I understand it.

Reforming as a phoenix with the same assets and league position as Rangers 1873 would present an interesting situation and one that HMRC wouldn't look favourably upon.

That being said - the very fact that the same people who walked in with Whyte when he took over are now Administering RFC 1873 stinks. There's a pre-agreed plan and we will just to have wait and see.

[SteveHFC]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=210806 :rotflmao:

[jst1875]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110825629217


:greengrin

[Since90+2]

Sorry if already posted but this is hilarious! (stolen from the sheep forum)

http://i.imgur.com/77DJY.gif

[John_the_angus_hibby]

This story will never be played straight in the Scottish media. This story will remain a Scottish football at risk story rather than what it is, a story about a fraudulent and corrupt organisation that is trying to steal public money. Why? Look at the pages and the % of airtime they get in our press. Journalists and pundits jobs are at risk here as 90% of every Scottish football story has an OF slant.

We will never get the unbiased view from the established media. Thank god for independent bloggers who dig and just tell it like it is.

The Scottish establishment WILL fight tooth and nail to have Rangers survive in some format. I hope they fail. As the posters on here have wonderfully expressed, it is the future of Scottish Football that is at stake...just not in the way our lapdog media is spinning it.

Death to RFC as a club , institution and memory.


Sent from another universe!

[ScottB]

Despite the wailings from the likes of Talk Sport and Hun journos, the real danger for Scottish Football is if (on liquidation) they are allowed back in to the SPL unharmed, NOT if they go away to div 3. The haemorrhaging of fans from everywhere else would be massive. If they think attendances are dropping at the minute, wait till you see how many are interested in going to watch a league where FC Newhun have been instantly re-admitted.

More than that, think of the precedent it sets.

In the future, what will any club that gets itself into a mess do? Follow the Hibs method of years of cut backs and debt repayment, or pull a Rangers, wiping out their debt and staying in the exact seem league they were in? Because of Rangers get to do that, everyone else will too!

It will, to my mind at least, be far more damaging for the game in this country if they get back into the SPL as a new side straight away than a few years of them being out of the SPL could ever do.

[Gala Foxes]

Not paying PAYE & VAT - in effect funding transfers & high living by not making these mandatory payments

They should be up on court on criminal charges for stealing this money

[HiBremian]

It will be up to the rest of the teams in the SPL to approve the re-entry of a new Hun FC. If they do so without extracting a considerable pound of flesh then it will be Hibs fault.

Just to let you know, if re-entry isn't appoved, they WON'T be welcome in the Bundesliga. );

[MCameron]

I think we need to try to get the Hibs Board to comment on their stance here. We need our support to make it clear to them that we do not want Rangers to walk back into the SPL.

How can we best make this known to the board?

We also need to join up with other SPL team fans to get them to do similar.

[Since90+2]

I think we need to try to get the Hibs Board to comment on their stance here. We need our support to make it clear to them that we do not want Rangers to walk back into the SPL.

How can we best make this known to the board?

We also need to join up with other SPL team fans to get them to do similar.


Hibs wont comment on something that is hypothetical, though looking likely , at the moment.

[BonnieFitbaTeam]

Not to mentioned the 24.4 million from ticketus which has been eaten up somewhere. Personally I think the money has been saved and transferred to another company so that Rangers will immediately have 'investment' when they exit administration or a phoenix company is born. What is interesting is that HMRC did not want to put rangers into administration over the big tax case but for the sum of 9 million in unpaid taxes. I wonder what will happen if Rangers exit administration and then the big tax case hits?


Might explain Whyte's claim that he'd 'provide' £25m for investment in the team over the next five years ?

I hope they get precisely what's coming to them.

[Ozyhibby]

This story will never be played straight in the Scottish media. This story will remain a Scottish football at risk story rather than what it is, a story about a fraudulent and corrupt organisation that is trying to steal public money. Why? Look at the pages and the % of airtime they get in our press. Journalists and pundits jobs are at risk here as 90% of every Scottish football story has an OF slant.

We will never get the unbiased view from the established media. Thank god for independent bloggers who dig and just tell it like it is.

The Scottish establishment WILL fight tooth and nail to have Rangers survive in some format. I hope they fail. As the posters on here have wonderfully expressed, it is the future of Scottish Football that is at stake...just not in the way our lapdog media is spinning it.

Death to RFC as a club , institution and memory.


Sent from another universe!

100% agree.

[John_the_angus_hibby]

Won't happen as the organisation would be a 'mare, but it would be cool if a weekend boycott could be organised across the board in the SPL. Would be great if virtually only Rangers fans turned up for the weekend. Empty stadiums up and down the country. Would send a big message but only a dream alas!


Sent from another universe!

[semaj64]

Why should we bother about the old firm, they would not hesitate going down to England now, maybe the huns will reform in the English leagues. Local team may benefit from new supporters.

[Ozyhibby]

We just need to make clear on forums such as this as the board almost certainly read what the fans think.
Next time you see Rod walking about behind the goals tell him what you expect of him on this matter.
This is probably the only chance we will be able to change the Scottish game for the better and for the Hibs board not to take it would be unforgivable.

[MCameron]

Hibs wont comment on something that is hypothetical, though looking likely , at the moment.

Fair enough SO but surely they should be made aware of the strength of Hibs fans feelings on the matter which will help shape their position should it come to pass?

[Twa Cairpets]

Fair enough SO but surely they should be made aware of the strength of Hibs fans feelings on the matter which will help shape their position should it come to pass?

The time to do that is when there is a specific thing upon which Hibs have to decide - when the SPL vote on NewHun coming into the league if they go into liquidation. If they go into and come out of administration unscathed - which seems increasingly unlikely I think - then there is no sanction Hibs/the SPL can legally take other than what they have done so far as far as I am aware. If Hibs have an option to consign them to division three (which would be the right thing to do for RFC2012) THAT's when we have to say "have the cahoonas to do the necessary or be aware of the consequences"

[Ozyhibby]

The time to do that is when there is a specific thing upon which Hibs have to decide - when the SPL vote on NewHun coming into the league if they go into liquidation. If they go into and come out of administration unscathed - which seems increasingly unlikely I think - then there is no sanction Hibs/the SPL can legally take other than what they have done so far as far as I am aware. If Hibs have an option to consign them to division three (which would be the right thing to do for RFC2012) THAT's when we have to say "have the cahoonas to do the necessary or be aware of the consequences"

Spot on.

[PaulSmith]

This is terrifying, the ICF against HMRC. No seriously.

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/429283_217479301681816_125115594251521_403740_1841 791642_n.jpg

[green glory]

Someone over on hunmedia saying there are rumours Whyte is on a plane to London en-route to Australia. Might not be true but if it is. The Hibees salute you!!

[At The Edge]

This is terrifying, the ICF against HMRC. No seriously.

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/429283_217479301681816_125115594251521_403740_1841 791642_n.jpg

I'm sure Danny Dyer will be there to record all events as its going to be pwopper nauwtie.
Got some big top boys the HMRC mob

[Cropley10]

This is terrifying, the ICF against HMRC. No seriously.

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/429283_217479301681816_125115594251521_403740_1841 791642_n.jpg

Classic OF spelling problem.

But is this a threat or a promise? I'm confused are they going to fight the Taxman?

[Cropley10]

We just need to make clear on forums such as this as the board almost certainly read what the fans think.
Next time you see Rod walking about behind the goals tell him what you expect of him on this matter.
This is probably the only chance we will be able to change the Scottish game for the better and for the Hibs board not to take it would be unforgivable.

The BBC just meekly doing everything they can to sell the idea that (somehow) Celtic, and 'Scottish Football' need Rangers!

Says who??

[greenginger]

Classic OF spelling problem.

But is this a threat or a promise? I'm confused are they going to fight the Taxman?


No, they are going to refuse to cash their benefit cheques in protest. :agree:

[matty_f]

While undoubtedly my heart says that it would be brilliant to have no Rangers in Scottish football, and that 100% they should face the consequences of their mis-management, I think the SPL have a huge dilemma to face up to if they do go into liquidation.

For one, re-instating them sets a very dangerous precedent because it paves the way for any number of clubs to emerge from financial mis-management almost unscathed.

Then the risk alienating the fans of all other clubs, most of whom would be keen to see Rangers get their cumuppance.

The problem is, financially the SPL and it's clubs are much better off with Rangers in the league. TV rights are more valuable and lucrative, as well as easier to sell with the OF derby, and the fact that the title race is generally close between the two of them.

Rangers bring a huge travelling support that boosts the coffers of the rest of the SPL twice a season, not to mention cup games.

By not allowing Rangers an SPL place, the SPL risks forcing all clubs to downsize as there is significantly lower income available, therefore everyone would have to cut their cloth accordingly. For us, where we lost almost a million pounds last season and are facing a poor financial year again this year, dropping the income further could be catastrophic and result in a significant change in the way the club is run.

Would clubs vote for a situation that would potentially put their own existence in jeopardy? I don't think so.

Ultimately, would we want to see a Hibs side far poorer than the one we've got just now as a result of having to downsize? I'm not sure I would, to be honest.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

What's wrong with well-implemented reparations?

Like a student loan - you pay on a sliding scale with transparency to prove no shady dealings.

And they're not allowed to annex Govan or march in groups of more than 3 at a time.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

While undoubtedly my heart says that it would be brilliant to have no Rangers in Scottish football, and that 100% they should face the consequences of their mis-management, I think the SPL have a huge dilemma to face up to if they do go into liquidation.

For one, re-instating them sets a very dangerous precedent because it paves the way for any number of clubs to emerge from financial mis-management almost unscathed.

Then the risk alienating the fans of all other clubs, most of whom would be keen to see Rangers get their cumuppance.

The problem is, financially the SPL and it's clubs are much better off with Rangers in the league. TV rights are more valuable and lucrative, as well as easier to sell with the OF derby, and the fact that the title race is generally close between the two of them.

Rangers bring a huge travelling support that boosts the coffers of the rest of the SPL twice a season, not to mention cup games.

By not allowing Rangers an SPL place, the SPL risks forcing all clubs to downsize as there is significantly lower income available, therefore everyone would have to cut their cloth accordingly. For us, where we lost almost a million pounds last season and are facing a poor financial year again this year, dropping the income further could be catastrophic and result in a significant change in the way the club is run.

Would clubs vote for a situation that would potentially put their own existence in jeopardy? I don't think so.

Ultimately, would we want to see a Hibs side far poorer than the one we've got just now as a result of having to downsize? I'm not sure I would, to be honest.

Thoughtful analysis as ever Matty rock and a hard place - what would you do?

Something will need to be done but I suspect behind closed doors to save face.
Will we get to know about it? I wonder. It's a &£@@ state of affairs as Renton said.

[Saorsa]

Thoughtful analysis as ever Matty rock and a hard place - what would you do?

Something will need to be done but I suspect behind closed doors to save face.
Will we get to know about it? I wonder. It's a &£@@ state of affairs as Renton said.I'd vote for them tae get tae ****

[matty_f]

I'd vote for them tae get tae ****

Think I would too, on reflection.:greengrin

[GreenCastle]

While undoubtedly my heart says that it would be brilliant to have no Rangers in Scottish football, and that 100% they should face the consequences of their mis-management, I think the SPL have a huge dilemma to face up to if they do go into liquidation.

For one, re-instating them sets a very dangerous precedent because it paves the way for any number of clubs to emerge from financial mis-management almost unscathed.

Then the risk alienating the fans of all other clubs, most of whom would be keen to see Rangers get their cumuppance.

The problem is, financially the SPL and it's clubs are much better off with Rangers in the league. TV rights are more valuable and lucrative, as well as easier to sell with the OF derby, and the fact that the title race is generally close between the two of them.

Rangers bring a huge travelling support that boosts the coffers of the rest of the SPL twice a season, not to mention cup games.

By not allowing Rangers an SPL place, the SPL risks forcing all clubs to downsize as there is significantly lower income available, therefore everyone would have to cut their cloth accordingly. For us, where we lost almost a million pounds last season and are facing a poor financial year again this year, dropping the income further could be catastrophic and result in a significant change in the way the club is run.

Would clubs vote for a situation that would potentially put their own existence in jeopardy? I don't think so.

Ultimately, would we want to see a Hibs side far poorer than the one we've got just now as a result of having to downsize? I'm not sure I would, to be honest.

I don't think Rangers will get to that stage - if they do they have to face the consequences. If the clubs let them away with it -it would be the end for the game in Scotland.

At Hibs at least we run our club pretty well compared to others so we would maybe come out better than some - yes it may damage SPL short term but long term - Hibs and the SPL would be more competitive.

Too long teams have been sucking up to the Old Firm and it's time that changed :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2101279/A-new-Rangers-emerge--dont-expect-SPL-rivals-agree-deal-them.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[lapsedhibee]

Thoughtful analysis as ever Matty rock and a hard place - what would you do?

Lock the gates at Ibrox for good. Preferably during a home game with a full house, so that at least some of the bigoted hordes are removed from civilised society for a while.

[Spike Mandela]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2101279/A-new-Rangers-emerge--dont-expect-SPL-rivals-agree-deal-them.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Good to read. Hopefully if Rangers try to not pay their debts and carry on regardless the other 11 teams will collectively refuse tp play in the league. Our chairmen need to grow a set.

[blackpoolhibs]

Good to read. Hopefully if Rangers try to not pay their debts and carry on regardless the other 11 teams will collectively refuse tp play in the league. Our chairmen need to grow a set.

:agree: They have to be brought to book for their actions, or it really is the end game for Scottish football. If they get away with it, what is the point of carrying on anymore?:confused:

[greenginger]

While undoubtedly my heart says that it would be brilliant to have no Rangers in Scottish football, and that 100% they should face the consequences of their mis-management, I think the SPL have a huge dilemma to face up to if they do go into liquidation.



Rangers bring a huge travelling support that boosts the coffers of the rest of the SPL twice a season, not to mention cup games.

By not allowing Rangers an SPL place, the SPL risks forcing all clubs to downsize as there is significantly lower income available, therefore everyone would have to cut their cloth accordingly. For us, where we lost almost a million pounds last season and are facing a poor financial year again this year, dropping the income further could be catastrophic and result in a significant change in the way the club is run.

Would clubs vote for a situation that would potentially put their own existence in jeopardy? I don't think so.

Ultimately, would we want to see a Hibs side far poorer than the one we've got just now as a result of having to downsize? I'm not sure I would, to be honest.


I think your believing what pundits are spouting. We will only play the Huns once at home this season, and the gate that day was 11,380.Thats only 1200 more than Saturdays gate against the Dons which incurred far less costs than hosting the Huns.

For a Rangers game the police costs are about double and stewarding about 50% more than a run of the mill SPL fixture therefor they are not profitable unless we get 16,000 + supporters through the turnstiles.

Where it would cost clubs would be in the T V deal but a more even share of a smaller deal might be not that much of a loss to make up for life without the Blue Turds.

[NAE NOOKIE]

If the huns do go into liquidation theres only one way to stop the other half of the manky mob running away with the league every year.


The remaining SPL clubs ( excluding celtic of course ) vote for a wage cap of £5,000 and win bonuses capped to £1,000

This would prevent any club being able to dominate the league ever again, including the new huns when they finally claw their way back out of the 3rd division.

The clubs could also vote in an even split of any TV deal. Yeh the TV money would be less, but with an even split the only clubs who would really suffer would be the OF coz they get the majority of the money just now anyway.

Also the rest of the SPL clubs would hopefully benefit from a rise in home crowds due to the more competative league.

This is a golden chance for Scottish football in my opinion.

Yes it would reduce our chances of doing well in Europe, but .... A ) we aint exactly doing that well just now anyway and .... B ) whats the point of worrying about the new extension when the rest of your bloody house is burning down ?

[London Hibs FC]

I think your believing what pundits are spouting. We will only play the Huns once at home this season, and the gate that day was 11,380.Thats only 1200 more than Saturdays gate against the Dons which incurred far less costs than hosting the Huns.

For a Rangers game the police costs are about double and stewarding about 50% more than a run of the mill SPL fixture therefor they are not profitable unless we get 16,000 + supporters through the turnstiles.

Where it would cost clubs would be in the T V deal but a more even share of a smaller deal might be not that much of a loss to make up for life without the Blue Turds.

This. :agree:

[TRC]

I don't see how the TV money would change surely it's just like them getting relegated?:confused:

[ScottB]

I don't see how the TV money would change surely it's just like them getting relegated?:confused:

If Sky were smart, and you have to assume they are, they would have seen that Rangers hitting the skids was a distinct possibility, and inserted some sort of clause to protect themselves.

[SteveHFC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=n-Eop3SDT1U

[Ozyhibby]

Hibs share of tv money last year was £715000 rangers was £2.3m.
If tv money were to drop then that could be made up with a more equal share of a smaller pie.
With the Sunday lunchtime kick off, the crowds for old firm games are no longer much higher than standard league games.
I really don't think that Scottish football needs rangers as much as we need a return to sporting integrity.

[basehibby]

First post on this thread so allow me to open by saying YAAA - - HOO :thumbsup:

It seems to me that Whyte has been expecting admin/liquidation all along and is counting on exactly what's being mooted - ie a debt free New Huns FC being welcomed back by the good ole SPL with penalties imposed which they will vigorously fight to minimise - all the while sticking two fingers up at the tax payer and any other creditors unlucky enough to find themselves stooges in their (grand) master plan.

Would love to see Scottish football call his bluff and send them packing to be re-elected to the third division in the event of liquidation. This afterall would be the naturally just way to deal with the situation - they have effectively been cheating all the other teams blind for years and in all fairness should reap the whirlwind they have sewn in the same way any other club would.

Of course though the other SPL clubs are scared that they will effectively be cutting off their noses to spite their faces - and it cannot be denied that all SPL clubs could expect a hit in revenue through loss of gate receipts as well as possible reductions in TV and sponsorship money.

But is the scale of this "catastrophy" as it is being painted being overblown? I believe it is.

For a start, we could fully expect a new Ranger's absence from the SPL to be temporary as they would most likely march through the leagues in short order and be back in the SPL in time for 2015 season. Also there are significant potential benefits to many clubs which should not be ignored.

Firstly, a number of SPL clubs would have an increased oportunity to qualify for European football at a higher level and for a number of years.

Also, the OF power duopoly which has been allowed to develop in top tier Scottish Football would be broken - providing an opportunity to change the rule book in a manner which is not perpetually warped for their benefit.

Lastly and certainly not least, there would be a great boost to the lower levels of Scottish Football - with each team in each division in succession enjoying a couple of home sellouts vs the huns along with possible TV income etc.

These factors, along with straightforward concepts of fairness which should be paramount in any sporting competition, should not be ignored in the big "what will we do with Rangers" equation - sadly, they more than likely will. Ach well, in the meantime I'll just enjoy the moment. So...

GIRFUY ya Greetin faced Hun Barstewards!!!
:na na::faf::dummytit::bye::boo hoo::cool2::party::hibees

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=n-Eop3SDT1U


lol

[Dinkydoo]

:agree: They have to be brought to book for their actions, or it really is the end game for Scottish football. If they get away with it, what is the point of carrying on anymore?:confused:

For once Blackpool :wink: I wholeheartedly agree with you.

What would be the point in carrying on?

What would be the point of any team operating financially within their means if certain clubs can cheat their way to title after title, whilst actually stealing from HMRC, just to have their slate wiped clean and be voted back into the league.

The tv deals would be revised if Rangers weren't in the SPL , so what, it's not as if there is a fair split of the money between clubs in the league anyway.

**** Rangers, let them die.

[bingo70]

It's not just tv money that would effect us, it'd be sponsorship money, player sales, attendences and hospitality would likely go down too.

That said, I actually agree, IF rangers reform as a new company then they have to start at the bottom

[Saorsa]

If the huns do go down the tubes and a new company is formed and allowed straight in tae the SPL that will be it for me. It will prove once and for all that the rest of the SPL exist for nae other reason than tae give some sort of legitimacy tae the OF league campaign and their qualification for Europe every year. It will prove beyond all doubt that Scottish fitba is rotten tae the core and run by crooks, shysters and OF sycophants and that everything and everybody else is irrelevant other than for the reason in bold above. If our board have any part in that decision tae let them back in it will be sheer hypocrisy on their part IMO. For years under their guidance we have paid hundreds of pounds a season while suffering dire fitba (some of the worst I've seen in my 30+ years of watching Hibs) while trying tae live within our means. If this club under whatever guise who have done exactly the opposite spending/stealing millions out of other peoples pockets buying cups, league titles and Euro qualification are allowed back in it will be an absolute disgrace and prove that cheats prosper. We could get relegated and they can stay in the top division? What's the point of trying tae do things the right way if cheats get away with doing it the wrong way and come out better off?


And before anybody says it, I'm not for a second suggesting we should have gone down the same road as the huns, merely pointing out what sheer hypocrisy IMO it would be on the part of our board if they were tae vote this lot back in, should the go defunct.

[Ozyhibby]

They should not just have to start at the bottom. They are offloading £100m of debt. They will no doubt look at starting at the bottom as a bargain. They would be back in the SPL by 2015.
There should also be a surcharge put on them of £5m per year for the next ten years to go towards youth development.
Even then they are still getting a bargain.

[PeeKay]

We could get relegated and they can stay in the top division? What's the point of trying tae do things the right way if cheats get away with doing it the wrong way and come out better off?
:agree:

That's it in a nutshell for me. If they get away with a slap on the wrist, then the pain that Hibs have sufferred in recent years to balance the books has been pointless. I have always felt it has perhaps been worth it to ensure that Hibs survive for future generations. But if they can do the exact opposite and still get to survive, then what has been the point?

[Disc O'Dave]

:agree:

That's it in a nutshell for me. If they get away with a slap on the wrist, then the pain that Hibs have sufferred in recent years to balance the books has been pointless. I have always felt it has perhaps been worth it to ensure that Hibs survive for future generations. But if they can do the exact opposite and still get to survive, then what has been the point?

Yup, if they get away with it, it's like a message to all the other clubs to just spend, spend, spend, dont bother paying taxes, and not to worry about the consequences. In fact, we could all orchestrate it to apply for administration at exactly the same time every 10 years, we all get docked 10 points, thus not affecting league placings, wipe the debt then start over.....

Just a shame der Hun have scuppererd any chance of the banks etc lending to SPL clubs ever again.

[greenginger]

League reconstruction is on its way.

Listen to what Regan, Doncaster ,the Sports Pundits are saying; A fresh look at the whole Scottish set-up/ An over whelming desire for change in the game/ crap about the necessity for the Huns to be included etc.

It will be a larger league next year ,maybe SPL 1 and SPL 2 but Rangers will be part of it.

What clubs must demand is fair distribution of of income, an end the the Old Firm veto, and the Huns starting in SPL 2 with suitable financial penalties in place to compensate their Football Victims (Yams excluded :greengrin )

This is one chance to level the playing field that cannot be missed.

It is vital everyone on here lets our Board know our position and will not tolerate them rolling over like they did when they supported a ten team SPL 2 years ago.:grr:

[jodjam]

Could Sir David Murray suffer same fate as Fred Goodwin? :wink:

[Betty Boop]

Phone-in on Five Live now,'Should the taxman go easy on Rangers ?'. Margaret Curran seems to think so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/5live/

[Smidge]

A few random thoughts this morning.....

Rangers have been forced into administration by HMRC on the basis of the £9m of VAT and PAYE withheld since Whyte took over in May 2011. Even if they managed to get a CVA agreed and exit administation while this is the only formal debt to £9m, on the basis that Whyte has managed to construct >£27m of other unsecured creditors - reducing HMRC <25% by value, then the £50-75m bill from the big tax case will simply force them back into administration once the judgement from the First Tier Tribunal is handed down.

However, I am fairly sure that c£50m has already been assessed and a demand issued so that it will be taken into account for a CVA. This is because this is the principal (quoted elsewhere as c£35m) of tax outstanding plus interest of c£15m. Assuming that the judgement from the FTT goes against Rangers - and I have read nothing to indicate that it's really going in their favour, apart from blue-tinged spin - then there is also the penalty to be determined. It is this latter part that may be excluded from the unsecured creditors in administration because it has definitely not yet been incurred as a liability.

I am alarmed by the noises coming from the mouths of politicians about the request for HMRC to look favourably on Rangers. Community impact, Scottish football, yadda yadda yadda. Therefore, I think that anyone truly alarmed by the possibility that a vast amount of taxpayers' money could be lost should begin lobbying their own elected representatives. I will be writing to my MP, MSP and one of the Lothians' list MSPs (I'm sure you could guess which one!), with copies going to the SPL, SFA and Hibs. It needs to be reasoned and articulate, not a partisan rant.

They cannot be allowed to get away with this. Either from the perspective of the public purse or from a football perspective. If nothing else, there needs to be a discussion about what Scottish football would look like without Rangers FC. I don't think there is any doubt that a version of the club will exist in years to come. At the very least, wealthy bluenoses will do an Airdrie Utd/Clydebank thing with another club, my guess being someone like East Stirling. However, it cannot be the case that any phoenix simply takes the place of the current RFC without a substantial shift in their position within the Scottish football establishment.

[Saorsa]

League reconstruction is on its way.

Listen to what Regan, Doncaster ,the Sports Pundits are saying; A fresh look at the whole Scottish set-up/ An over whelming desire for change in the game/ crap about the necessity for the Huns to be included etc.

It will be a larger league next year ,maybe SPL 1 and SPL 2 but Rangers will be part of it.

What clubs must demand is fair distribution of of income, an end the the Old Firm veto, and the Huns starting in SPL 2 with suitable financial penalties in place to compensate their Football Victims (Yams excluded :greengrin )

This is one chance to level the playing field that cannot be missed.

It is vital everyone on here lets our Board know our position and will not tolerate them rolling over like they did when they supported a ten team SPL 2 years ago.:grr:Spot on.

The perfect opportunity could arise from this situation tae break the OF duopoly. What we need for once is for those outwith the OF tae stop being a bunch of self interested mealy mouthed baw bags fighting over scraps from the OF table. Sadly I dinnae see that happening.

[CallumLaidlaw]

Yep, let's get -

A 16/18 team league

Fair split of tv revenue

A reasonable wage/bonus cap

A look at introducing colt teams to the lower leagues

[Betty Boop]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDZLIaFVUPE&feature=player_embedded

[Gatecrasher]

Yep, let's get -

A 16/18 team league

Fair split of tv revenue

A reasonable wage/bonus cap

A look at introducing colt teams to the lower leagues
:top marks

[Bighoose]

Phone-in on Five Live now,'Should the taxman go easy on Rangers ?'. Margaret Curran seems to think so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/5live/

Errr,.....No

I have no problems in them paying back their £50M+ to HMRC over a period e.g. £5M a year over 10 years.

However they are a going concern (at the moment) so there is no reason why they should be let off with not paying the full amount they owe.

[bighairyfaeleith]

A few random thoughts this morning.....

Rangers have been forced into administration by HMRC on the basis of the £9m of VAT and PAYE withheld since Whyte took over in May 2011. Even if they managed to get a CVA agreed and exit administation while this is the only formal debt to £9m, on the basis that Whyte has managed to construct >£27m of other unsecured creditors - reducing HMRC <25% by value, then the £50-75m bill from the big tax case will simply force them back into administration once the judgement from the First Tier Tribunal is handed down.

However, I am fairly sure that c£50m has already been assessed and a demand issued so that it will be taken into account for a CVA. This is because this is the principal (quoted elsewhere as c£35m) of tax outstanding plus interest of c£15m. Assuming that the judgement from the FTT goes against Rangers - and I have read nothing to indicate that it's really going in their favour, apart from blue-tinged spin - then there is also the penalty to be determined. It is this latter part that may be excluded from the unsecured creditors in administration because it has definitely not yet been incurred as a liability.

I am alarmed by the noises coming from the mouths of politicians about the request for HMRC to look favourably on Rangers. Community impact, Scottish football, yadda yadda yadda. Therefore, I think that anyone truly alarmed by the possibility that a vast amount of taxpayers' money could be lost should begin lobbying their own elected representatives. I will be writing to my MP, MSP and one of the Lothians' list MSPs (I'm sure you could guess which one!), with copies going to the SPL, SFA and Hibs. It needs to be reasoned and articulate, not a partisan rant.

They cannot be allowed to get away with this. Either from the perspective of the public purse or from a football perspective. If nothing else, there needs to be a discussion about what Scottish football would look like without Rangers FC. I don't think there is any doubt that a version of the club will exist in years to come. At the very least, wealthy bluenoses will do an Airdrie Utd/Clydebank thing with another club, my guess being someone like East Stirling. However, it cannot be the case that any phoenix simply takes the place of the current RFC without a substantial shift in their position within the Scottish football establishment.

I agree, think I might type a wee letter myself this afternoon, don't want any politician misunderstanding how important it is that taxpayers money is not allowed to disappear into craig whytes pockets.

[carnoustiehibee]

Brian Moore speaking alot of sense on talksport

[s.a.m]

Hibs share of tv money last year was £715000 rangers was £2.3m.
If tv money were to drop then that could be made up with a more equal share of a smaller pie.
With the Sunday lunchtime kick off, the crowds for old firm games are no longer much higher than standard league games.
I really don't think that Scottish football needs rangers as much as we need a return to sporting integrity.

Couldn't agree more. The SPL, and Scottish football, may not survive in its current form, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think perhaps it's going to take something seismic to force clubs and administrators to work towards a sustainable future for the game, as opposed to pursuing short-term vested interest. Perhaps this is it.


Sorry if already posted but this is hilarious! (stolen from the sheep forum)

http://i.imgur.com/77DJY.gif

:greengrin

[jonty]

Classic OF spelling problem.

But is this a threat or a promise? I'm confused are they going to fight the Taxman?

And whats with the british rail logo at the bottom?

another fail
http://twitter.com/#!/SkyScot/status/169726119044595712/photo/1

[HIBEETILLIDIE]

Sorry if already posted but this is hilarious! (stolen from the sheep forum)

http://i.imgur.com/77DJY.gif

That is brilliant, can you tell me how do you copy that so it can be sent on via e-mail, there are a few Huns i would love to send it to. :top marks:aok::thumbsup:

[HIBEETILLIDIE]

Hibs share of tv money last year was £715000 rangers was £2.3m.
If tv money were to drop then that could be made up with a more equal share of a smaller pie.
With the Sunday lunchtime kick off, the crowds for old firm games are no longer much higher than standard league games.
I really don't think that Scottish football needs rangers as much as we need a return to sporting integrity.

1800 extra season tickets, soon replaces the TV money, i'm sure we can muster a couple of thousand extra season ticket holders if it meant goodbye to that lot! I for one would definately return to buying a season ticket.

[silverhibee]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/02/15/rangers-in-crisis-hearts-set-to-lose-out-on-800k-of-lee-wallace-transfer-fee-as-a-result-of-ibrox-club-s-cash-woes-86908-23749215/

[cabbageandribs1875]

That is brilliant, can you tell me how do you copy that so it can be sent on via e-mail, there are a few Huns i would love to send it to. :top marks:aok::thumbsup:



just right click it and save it to your desktop, type the e-mail then add the attachment(from your desktop)

[HIBEETILLIDIE]

just right click it and save it to your desktop, type the e-mail then add the attachment(from your desktop)

many thanks.:aok:

[Captain Trips]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/02/15/rangers-in-crisis-hearts-set-to-lose-out-on-800k-of-lee-wallace-transfer-fee-as-a-result-of-ibrox-club-s-cash-woes-86908-23749215/

As much as I dislike Hearts that is well out of order, if that happens then there is no doubt we all should come together 100% to make this the worst case scenario for Rangers. Could Hearts not take him back?

[marinello59]

1800 extra season tickets, soon replaces the TV money, i'm sure we can muster a couple of thousand extra season ticket holders if it meant goodbye to that lot! I for one would definately return to buying a season ticket.

With all those who said they wouldn't buy a season ticket unless Calderwood was sacked joining those who would only renew if the board backed the manager in the transfer window we should have about 15000 season ticket holders next year. With more likely to return if Rangers to exist we may need a bigger stadium. Those refusing to return until the board are sacked may find themselves locked out.:agree:

[Spike Mandela]

As much as I dislike Hearts that is well out of order, if that happens then there is no doubt we all should come together 100% to make this the worst case scenario for Rangers. Could Hearts not take him back?

I rather think Vlad will be sitting back, taking notes and planning his next step.

The real losers in all of this will be HMRC and the small creditors, Vlad likes the sound of that.

[silverhibee]

As much as I dislike Hearts that is well out of order, if that happens then there is no doubt we all should come together 100% to make this the worst case scenario for Rangers. Could Hearts not take him back?


I agree with you, and they will keep on doing this to clubs in the SPL, plain and simple, its cheating/stealing money from other clubs, the SPL/SFA should be taking some kind of action against them and the yams, if the huns continue to not pay clubs in the SPL then the other clubs should be also taking some kind of action against them.

[StevieC]

As much as I dislike Hearts that is well out of order, if that happens then there is no doubt we all should come together 100% to make this the worst case scenario for Rangers. Could Hearts not take him back?

I think that would surely be an option. The wages might be an issue, not so much Hearts would need to pay it but that Wallace will have a contract, although that contract would be with Rangers and he might need to chase it through the courts.
There certainly looks like a reasonable case for the return of goods not paid for, a bit like repossessing a car or a house if you dont keep up the payments.

[jonty]

from twitter:
How do I retract a bid on eBay? I put in a bid for a small cowboy outfit and I'm just six minutes away from owning Rangers

[Prof. Shaggy]

Hibs share of tv money last year was £715000 rangers was £2.3m.
If tv money were to drop then that could be made up with a more equal share of a smaller pie.
With the Sunday lunchtime kick off, the crowds for old firm games are no longer much higher than standard league games.
I really don't think that Scottish football needs rangers as much as we need a return to sporting integrity.

All that needs saying, really.

[PeeKay]

I think that would surely be an option. The wages might be an issue, not so much Hearts would need to pay it but that Wallace will have a contract, although that contract would be with Rangers and he might need to chase it through the courts.
There certainly looks like a reasonable case for the return of goods not paid for, a bit like repossessing a car or a house if you dont keep up the payments.

But they wouldn't be able to sell him on until the next transfer window opens, and in the meantime he would represent another of the high-earners that they are wanting to off-load. Hmm, on reflection it actually sound like a great idea. :greengrin

[s.a.m]

As much as I dislike Hearts that is well out of order, if that happens then there is no doubt we all should come together 100% to make this the worst case scenario for Rangers. Could Hearts not take him back?

Given Hearts' current financial issues, he might find they've changed the locks, if he tries turning up at Tynecastle with his fitba boots.

[Phil MaGlass]

All that needs saying, really.

exactly

[Saorsa]

As much as I dislike Hearts that is well out of order, if that happens then there is no doubt we all should come together 100% to make this the worst case scenario for Rangers. Could Hearts not take him back?Or their comeuppance for what they did tae Arbroath. What goes around........

[Part/Time Supporter]

Hearts aren't due any money for Wallace until the summer. He will either return to Hearts then or be sold on by what's left of the Huns.

[jgl07]

I think that would surely be an option. The wages might be an issue, not so much Hearts would need to pay it but that Wallace will have a contract, although that contract would be with Rangers and he might need to chase it through the courts.
There certainly looks like a reasonable case for the return of goods not paid for, a bit like repossessing a car or a house if you dont keep up the payments.

But players are not chattels that can be repossessed unless the player was prepared to return. Wallace has a contract with Rangers and not with Hearts. Hearts are owed money by Rangers. The Administrator would probably transfer list Wallace as his contract is a saleable asset. He will go south next window. Villa expressed interest.

Do you really think that Lee Wallace would agree to go back to Hearts?

[CropleyWasGod]

Rangers have paid part of the cash for LW. So, if Hearts want proper recompense, they can have part of him back.

:cb

[Spike Mandela]

Interesting legal view of Rangers administration consequences.....

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/

[Gatecrasher]

Interesting legal view of Rangers administration consequences.....

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/


Season Tickets
This is an interesting one. The administrators can effectively rip up existing contracts with suppliers etc. Season ticket holders have already paid for their seats and, for the unexpired portion of their ticket, are creditors of the club.
In smaller examples of football insolvency, and Motherwell count as a “smaller” example, the appointment of an administrator has resulted in cancellation of season tickets, and a mass rallying round by the fans, who were happy to dig into their pockets to pay at the gate, and who were willing to chuck a few pounds into the buckets and tins being used to gather up funds for the administrator.


I never knew that!

[easty]

I never knew that!

I knew a few Bradford fans who told me that had happened to them. I'm sure they said they had paid on thier credit card and got the money back from credit card company though.

[easty]

Rangers have paid part of the cash for LW. So, if Hearts want proper recompense, they can have part of him back.

:cb

His trigger finger in an envelope maybe?

[jgl07]

I never knew that!

Well if the administrators let season ticket holders in for free, each match is likely to run at a considerable loss with the high policing costs unless there is a packed stadium.

The match on Saturday will go ahead but where will the money come from? Away supporters and walk up fans will not produce that much cash.

[Leithenhibby]

Well if the administrators let season ticket holders in for free, each match is likely to run at a considerable loss with the high policing costs unless there is a packed stadium.

The match on Saturday will go ahead but where will the money come from? Away supporters and walk up fans will not produce that much cash.


I have a feeling that this mob will get right behind the team and Hunbrox will be close to full .. :rolleyes:

Every fan of football would do their bit for their club, and "the manks" are no different ... :wink:

[kennyh]

They said on the radio last night (i think it was on Real radio) that ST holders will be allowed in this weekend for free. They were pleading for the "loyal" army to turn out and fill the stadium. I am guessing that ST #'s are around 35K so 15K T's to be sold bringing in ~ 400K. I think it was left hanging in the balance as to games after that, I wasnt listening too attently but I can see them saying to fans please pay again.

Home Ticket money will be their only significant income till they go POP or come out of administration.

Surely now is the time for away fans to boycot the place.

[truehibernian]

They said on the radio last night (i think it was on Real radio) that ST holders will be allowed in this weekend for free. They were pleading for the "loyal" army to turn out and fill the stadium. I am guessing that ST #'s are around 35K so 15K T's to be sold bringing in ~ 400K. I think it was left hanging in the balance as to games after that, I wasnt listening too attently but I can see them saying to fans please pay again.

Home Ticket money will be their only significant income till they go POP or come out of administration.

Surely now is the time for away fans to boycot the place.

Why consider a boycott ? Never quite understand that logic......surely you follow the team to support Hibs and the lads, not just financially but visibly and vocally. What other clubs do, or the mess they become, is their quandry. I support Hibernian and would never 'boycott'......the lads need to see fans there urging them on.

[Lofarl]

There will be a big crowd this weekend for them. They will match Celtic fans for their grief levels. But once it's cheerio ****ger, cya Papac, thanks for the memories Flecky. These fans will suddenly find other things to do on Saturdays.

They have yet to feel the effects of administration yet. Once it kicks in it will hurt harder than those words that every weegie dreads to hear " You start Monday". They seem to think that its a 10 point deduction and hard times to bear, ken no winning pure anyhing man.

Wake up lads.

[GloryGlory]

Why should we bother about the old firm, they would not hesitate going down to England now, maybe the huns will reform in the English leagues. Local team may benefit from new supporters.

:agree: If they ever get the chance to join the EPL, they will not give a tinker's for the SPL or the rest of Scottish football.

My view - if Rangers are liquidated, the successor club cannot just be allowed back into the top tier of Scottish football, as if nothing happened. What would happen if the new organisation just started racking up debts and went into administartion again in 10 years time?

No - a strong message has to go out so that in future all clubs live within their means. Anything else is a travesty.

I realise that means the other clubs have to look at downsizing, but I'd be far happier knowing that Hibs and others were getting a fairer share of whatever is available.

It is also a good chance for Scottish football to reassess how it is structured and to find a way for the league to grow organically. Even Sky TV will get fed up eventually funding a redundant competition, just to get four OF games a season. We might as well take the chance now to effect long-overdue and necessary change, instead of continuing this long, slow downward spiral.

[StevieC]

Do you really think that Lee Wallace would agree to go back to Hearts?

Not for a second, but Hearts might have an argument that, as Rangers failed to pay them, his period at Rangers would effectively be a "loan" and they "retain" the player contractually. It would be Hearts that could then sell him on and pocket any future transfer fee.

Very complicated situation with no known precedence but I know if it had happened to us I'd be looking at every possible solution to clawing back the cash owed.

[CropleyWasGod]

Not for a second, but Hearts might have an argument that, as Rangers failed to pay them, his period at Rangers would effectively be a "loan" and they "retain" the player contractually. It would be Hearts that could then sell him on and pocket any future transfer fee.

Very complicated situation with no known precedence but I know if it had happened to us I'd be looking at every possible solution to clawing back the cash owed.

Sometimes, when goods are sold, the contract has a "retention of title" clause, which allows the purchaser to retain such title until the goods are paid for. I don't know whether that applies in the case of footballers', but the detail will be in the contract.

I have to say that, if it were the case, and Hearts demanded him back, they would also have to repay whatever they have already had from Rangers. :rolleyes:

[jgl07]

Not for a second, but Hearts might have an argument that, as Rangers failed to pay them, his period at Rangers would effectively be a "loan" and they "retain" the player contractually. It would be Hearts that could then sell him on and pocket any future transfer fee.

Very complicated situation with no known precedence but I know if it had happened to us I'd be looking at every possible solution to clawing back the cash owed.

I think the issue is similar to buying a car. If you get the car on HP and fail to make your repayments the credit company can repossess it. If you get a personal loan in the form of a second mortgage, the company cannot repossess the car but may come after your house if you fail to meet repayment terms.

So if a player went on a seasons' loan with an option to buy, then the first club could recall him in the event of default. That is similar to the car on HP deal. That would not apply after a full transfer.

[Smidge]

I think the issue is similar to buying a car. If you get the car on HP and fail to make your repayments the credit company can repossess it. If you get a personal loan in the form of a second mortgage, the company cannot repossess the car but may come after your house if you fail to meet repayment terms.

So if a player went on a seasons' loan with an option to buy, then the first club could recall him in the event of default. That is similar to the car on HP deal. That would not apply after a full transfer.


On HP, you technically don't own the goods until you have paid the final installment!

[Lofarl]

Since the news of Rangers demise I have pretty much been like this

http://z0r.de/L/z0r-de_3714.swf

I've been in such a good mood this week.

[Exiled Hibby]

I think the issue is similar to buying a car. If you get the car on HP and fail to make your repayments the credit company can repossess it. If you get a personal loan in the form of a second mortgage, the company cannot repossess the car but may come after your house if you fail to meet repayment terms.

So if a player went on a seasons' loan with an option to buy, then the first club could recall him in the event of default. That is similar to the car on HP deal. That would not apply after a full transfer.

Disagree. They would simply become creditors like all the others. There would be no Standard Security over Lee Wallace so they cannot "repossess" him. As an earlier poster said, sometimes goods are sold with a retention of title clause but cannot see that this is at all possible with a player who is under contract to his new employers.

[jgl07]

Disagree. They would simply become creditors like all the others. There would be no Standard Security over Lee Wallace so they cannot "repossess" him. As an earlier poster said, sometimes goods are sold with a retention of title clause but cannot see that this is at all possible with a player who is under contract to his new employers.

That was exactly what I said.

Had Hearts loaned Wallace for the season with an option to buy at the end of the term, it would have been different.

[CropleyWasGod]

That was exactly what I said.

Had Hearts loaned Wallace for the season with an option to buy at the end of the term, it would have been different.

.. and they wouldn't have had any cash from Rangers either.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Disagree. They would simply become creditors like all the others. There would be no Standard Security over Lee Wallace so they cannot "repossess" him. As an earlier poster said, sometimes goods are sold with a retention of title clause but cannot see that this is at all possible with a player who is under contract to his new employers.

Craig Moore was returned to Rangers in 1998/99 after Crystal Palace (who had bought him in the previous summer) went bust.