Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Viva_Palmeiras]

:agree: Once the non Hun fans have sorted Rangers out surely its possible to then get an effective campaign going to cancel Sky subscriptions in response? You never know this might make them think about it. I'd certainly cancel mine.

The problem for the gers fans and beauty for Sky is Sky has bundled Spl in with other leagues as far as I'm aware you can't say EPL, Serie A, La Liga and Bundesliga only but no SPL. So it's all or nothig

[Phil D. Rolls]

No i dont think, would the same rules apply if we were talking about Hibs?

Would the same rules apply if Newcastle or Sunderland were trying to get in?

[Hibercelona]

Aye ... right enough ... one things for sure, admittance to the SFL has got nothing to do with how long a club has waited to get in.

Let me think ... a handfull of clubs with seating for 200 and standing room for 2,000 more, with no prospect of ever growing their fanbase or ever having a hope of changing the demographics of Scottish football.

Lets look at some the clubs who have been admitted recently:

Annan Athetic ....... doing what ?

Peterhead .... what impact have they made ?

Inverness Caledonian Thistle .... most disappointing of all IMO ... there was a club from a town where you were guaranteed a good crowd for Scottish cup ties when it had only Highland league clubs. I thought it was brilliant when ICT joined the league .. heres a club who can be the next Dundee Utd and really bring something to the table was my thinking.

Instead of that they have a rubbish stadium and home crowds of about 4,000.

So lets be realistic .... newco current buns should be a shoe in for SFL membership. Its one thing cutting off your nose to spite you face. Its quite another cutting off your whole bloody head.

Dont ya think ?

Thats besides the point.

They are a new club, therefore they should start at the very bottom of it all like any other new club.

[magpie1892]

Would the same rules apply if Newcastle or Sunderland were trying to get in?

Get in where? The SPL?

Using a cross-border comparison makes no sense in this context.

[blackpoolhibs]

Would the same rules apply if Newcastle or Sunderland were trying to get in?

Why, have they gone bust, have they moved the boundaries, and do they fit the right criteria needed to join the SFL?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Get in where? The SPL?

Using a cross-border comparison makes no sense in this context.

I used them as an example because they applied to the Scottish League in the 30s.


Why, have they gone bust, have they moved the boundaries, and do they fit the right criteria needed to join the SFL?

No, hypothetical question. What I'm really asking is would the leagues turn away any club that could bring a big fan base to the competition?

[blackpoolhibs]

I used them as an example because they applied to the Scottish League in the 30s.



No, hypothetical question. What I'm really asking is would the leagues turn away any club that could bring a big fan base to the competition?

Your question is really, could Newcastle or Sunderland buy a place in the SPL or the division below?

[Brando7]

Audi have just pulled the plug on their sponsorship deal with oldrangers, 45 motors to be handed back tomorrow.

On yir bikes boys :na na:

[Phil D. Rolls]

Your question is really, could Newcastle or Sunderland buy a place in the SPL or the division below?

Yes, because that's what Rangers are trying to do. The point has been made about smaller clubs who should get a chance in front of them.

Someone else said would you allow a club with a 2000 seat stadium, and hard core fan base of 500 into the league in front of a club with a 50,000 seat stadium and fan base of, well, quite a lot.

The question we need to answer is this, is the league set up so teams can generate revenue through regular fixtures that bring big crowds. Or, is it set up purely as a sporting competition.

Personally, I'd rather see the second, because the theory that big clubs are good for our game has been shown to be flawed. However, it's only right to consider the original reason football leagues were set up - to generate cash.

[jgl07]

Your question is really, could Newcastle or Sunderland buy a place in the SPL or the division below?

Why would they want to?

[Kaiser1962]

Your from Gala Bovril so you should be aware that Fairydean have made a number of applications to join the football league and are far more worthy of involvement than the Hun.

They had their go and blew it, so someone else should be given the opportunity.




Aye ... right enough ... one things for sure, admittance to the SFL has got nothing to do with how long a club has waited to get in.

Let me think ... a handfull of clubs with seating for 200 and standing room for 2,000 more, with no prospect of ever growing their fanbase or ever having a hope of changing the demographics of Scottish football.

Lets look at some the clubs who have been admitted recently:

Annan Athetic ....... doing what ?

Peterhead .... what impact have they made ?

Inverness Caledonian Thistle .... most disappointing of all IMO ... there was a club from a town where you were guaranteed a good crowd for Scottish cup ties when it had only Highland league clubs. I thought it was brilliant when ICT joined the league .. heres a club who can be the next Dundee Utd and really bring something to the table was my thinking.

Instead of that they have a rubbish stadium and home crowds of about 4,000.

So lets be realistic .... newco current buns should be a shoe in for SFL membership. Its one thing cutting off your nose to spite you face. Its quite another cutting off your whole bloody head.

Dont ya think ?

[blackpoolhibs]

Why would they want to?

No idea, it was FH's question? :wink: I just want whoever it is thats wanting to apply, just apply using the rules that are in place. Its a simple as that for me, any changing of these rules as they stand now, is buying a place at a tier you have no right to play at.

Why were Hibs allowed to be relegated, when we have a support much bigger than most? Why was there no restructuring of leagues to try and save us? Why Mr Doncaster, why?

What if New Rangers struggle in Division 1, and are relegated? Will we see this again next season?

What happens to the next team to go bust, where do they apply to on the way back to Scottish football?

There's a million other questions too, when the rules are in place now to quash them.

CORRUPTION IS ALIVE AND WELL IN SCOTTISH FOOTBALL.

[Bostonhibby]

The problem for the gers fans and beauty for Sky is Sky has bundled Spl in with other leagues as far as I'm aware you can't say EPL, Serie A, La Liga and Bundesliga only but no SPL. So it's all or nothig

Yep, quite happy with nothing if I believe they are a factor in whatever shady deal is landed on.

[jgl07]

Oh I dont know. If its 4000, that's about 7% of Inverness's population.


Ross County get similar crowds. What proportion of the population of Dingwall is that?

This may be a consequence of the forced merger of Caledonian and Thistle. I was told by an Inverness resident that a lot of supporters (from both Caledonian and Thistle) defected to Ross County after the merger.

[Kaiser1962]

Oh I dont know. If its 4000, that's about 7% of Inverness's population. Arabs at say 7000 is 4.5%. We run at about 2.5%
But I do agree with you about huns coming into div 3. Thats the right place.

ICT average home gate for 2011-2012 was 4023. United was 7482. ICT's highest 6623 (v. Rangers) and lowest 3035 (v. St. Johnstone) United's highest was 11471 (v. Aberdeen) and lowest was 5232 (v. Killie)

Ross County had an average of 2874 (up 21.9% on the previous season) with a high attendance of 4737 (v. hamilton) with a low of 2047 (v.Livi)

Work is underway to make Victoria Park a 6000 seater stadium. Interestingly the population of Dingwall itself is less than that.

So Fairydean in front of Sevco it is then.

Given my previous post about Gala Fairydean I would like to point out that Galashiels has a population three times that of Dingwall and Netherdale has an all weather 3G artificial surface.

[down-the-slope]

Good to see where the Fife clubs stand. :aok:

Good ol' Fifers. :greengrin

Us fifers have balls and a refusal to to bend to pressure to change our views......stubborn buggers...

[SurferRosa]

With friends like this, who needs enemies?

Giovanni di Stefano writes to UEFA demanding that Rangers newco should be admitted to SPL. (http://www.studiolegaleinternazionale.com/blogHome2.php)

:greengrin

That`ll be the crooked lawyer that helped to practically finish off Dundee and the same shyster that was spouting some guff about being involved in a consortium, containing some royal family from Qatar (:faf:), that wanted to buy Cheats FC?

Dearie me......what part of cloud cuckoo land does this buffoon live on..

[jgl07]

Us fifers have balls and a refusal to to bend to pressure to change our views......stubborn buggers...

Any news on which way Cowdenbeath are going to vote?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Us fifers have balls and a refusal to to bend to pressure to change our views......stubborn buggers...

"Thrawn" is the word yahoor! :greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

This proposal, if it's as I understand it, is actually worse than the proposal to reinstate the new Rangers into the SPL.

The idea that the new company would be admitted into the SFL and put into the highest division within that organisation is ludicrous in itself. Then the idea that the SPL would then pay the SFL around £1 million to be able to screen the new Rangers' matches beggars belief.

There is absolutely no way that this should be allowed to happen and all the clubs in the SFL should be uniting to ensure that it doesn't happen.

Anyone who is behind this proposal should be hanging their heads in shame and should be hounded out of Scottish football.

If there is going to be a new club coming into the Scottish leagues, it must be made to start in the lowest division.

If I was an Alloa fan just now, having just watched my team play a full season's worth of matches in the third division and getting promoted, on merit, to the second division, I would be absolutely disgusted at the thought of a brand new club being admitted into the SFL structure one division higher than my own team, without even kicking a single ball.

[zlatan]

The Sky thing is scaremongering at its worst. They have just paid £3 billion for Premiership rights, why risk the bad publicity and cancellations from Scotland by pulling the plug on a deal that costs them chicken feed?

[Saorsa]

This proposal, if it's as I understand it, is actually worse than the proposal to reinstate the new Rangers into the SPL.

The idea that the new company would be admitted into the SFL and put into the highest division within that organisation is ludicrous in itself. Then the idea that the SPL would then pay the SFL around £1 million to be able to screen the new Rangers' matches beggars belief.

There is absolutely no way that this should be allowed to happen and all the clubs in the SFL should be uniting to ensure that it doesn't happen.

Anyone who is behind this proposal should be hanging their heads in shame and should be hounded out of Scottish football.

If there is going to be a new club coming into the Scottish leagues, it must be made to start in the lowest division.

If I was an Alloa fan just now, having just watched my team play a full season's worth of matches in the third division and getting promoted, on merit, to the second division, I would be absolutely disgusted at the thought of a brand new club being admitted into the SFL structure one division higher than my own team, without even kicking a single ball.Trouble is they have nae shame so you'll be waiting a long time for that.

[HibbyAndy]

This proposal, if it's as I understand it, is actually worse than the proposal to reinstate the new Rangers into the SPL.

The idea that the new company would be admitted into the SFL and put into the highest division within that organisation is ludicrous in itself. Then the idea that the SPL would then pay the SFL around £1 million to be able to screen the new Rangers' matches beggars belief.

There is absolutely no way that this should be allowed to happen and all the clubs in the SFL should be uniting to ensure that it doesn't happen.

Anyone who is behind this proposal should be hanging their heads in shame and should be hounded out of Scottish football.

If there is going to be a new club coming into the Scottish leagues, it must be made to start in the lowest division.

If I was an Alloa fan just now, having just watched my team play a full season's worth of matches in the third division and getting promoted, on merit, to the second division, I would be absolutely disgusted at the thought of a brand new club being admitted into the SFL structure one division higher than my own team, without even kicking a single ball.




Your just sayin that cause Alloa is near you.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Your from Gala Bovril so you should be aware that Fairydean have made a number of applications to join the football league and are far more worthy of involvement than the Hun.

They had their go and blew it, so someone else should be given the opportunity.

I'm well aware of the Fairydean's efforts to get into the SFL in the past. But they are a classic example of what my post was about.

In what possible context could the Fairydean bring anything to the table which would set them apart from Annan, Peterhead, Elgin etc. In football terms they would be as worthy of entry to the SFL as any other club. But the point is that we are talking about professional football and like it or not a decision to allow a club with 200 fans into a league in front of a club with a stadium fit to host International football and the ability, in time, to fill that stadium would be just stupid.

I want to see Scottish football back on an even keel, with fair play and fair finances. Part of that is to have as many big games as possible and historically Hibs v Rangers has been a match to look forward to. Do you think Hibs v Gala Fairydean is a suitable replacement for that?

Yes ... we could do without the bigotry, the arrogance and a few other things that Rangers have historically carried with them, but I want to see football working towards stamping that stuff out .... sure getting rid of Rangers ( in any form ) would go a long way to ending all that, but I would rather we did it through education and zero tolerance.

My final part of this argument is this ....... Rangers have cheated for 20 years, not 120 years .... yes I fkng hate them ... always have and always will, but watching Hibs beat a club 10 times bigger than us, on the few times we are able to do it, gives me a hell of a lot more pleasure than beating Motherwell or Aberdeen, or dare I say it ..... Gala Fairydean ... God bless em.

[HibbyAndy]

I'm well aware of the Fairydean's efforts to get into the SFL in the past. But they are a classic example of what my post was about.

In what possible context could the Fairydean bring anything to the table which would set them apart from Annan, Peterhead, Elgin etc. In football terms they would be as worthy of entry to the SFL as any other club. But the point is that we are talking about professional football and like it or not a decision to allow a club with 200 fans into a league in front of a club with a stadium fit to host International football and the ability, in time, to fill that stadium would be just stupid.

I want to see Scottish football back on an even keel, with fair play and fair finances. Part of that is to have as many big games as possible and historically Hibs v Rangers has been a match to look forward to. Do you think Hibs v Gala Fairydean is a suitable replacement for that?

Yes ... we could do without the bigotry, the arrogance and a few other things that Rangers have historically carried with them, but I want to see football working towards stamping that stuff out .... sure getting rid of Rangers ( in any form ) would go a long way to ending all that, but I would rather we did it through education and zero tolerance.

My final part of this argument is this ....... Rangers have cheated for 20 years, not 120 years .... yes I fkng hate them ... always have and always will, but watching Hibs beat a club 10 times bigger than us, on the few times we are able to do it, gives me a hell of a lot more pleasure than beating Motherwell or Aberdeen, or dare I say it ..... Gala Fairydean ... God bless em.



Akent Gala's goaly a few years back...Gary Loutit, Bit radge like.

[Saorsa]

I'm well aware of the Fairydean's efforts to get into the SFL in the past. But they are a classic example of what my post was about.

In what possible context could the Fairydean bring anything to the table which would set them apart from Annan, Peterhead, Elgin etc. In football terms they would be as worthy of entry to the SFL as any other club. But the point is that we are talking about professional football and like it or not a decision to allow a club with 200 fans into a league in front of a club with a stadium fit to host International football and the ability, in time, to fill that stadium would be just stupid.

I want to see Scottish football back on an even keel, with fair play and fair finances. Part of that is to have as many big games as possible and historically Hibs v Rangers has been a match to look forward to. Do you think Hibs v Gala Fairydean is a suitable replacement for that?

Yes ... we could do without the bigotry, the arrogance and a few other things that Rangers have historically carried with them, but I want to see football working towards stamping that stuff out .... sure getting rid of Rangers ( in any form ) would go a long way to ending all that, but I would rather we did it through education and zero tolerance.

My final part of this argument is this ....... Rangers have cheated for 20 years, not 120 years .... yes I fkng hate them ... always have and always will, but watching Hibs beat a club 10 times bigger than us, on the few times we are able to do it, gives me a hell of a lot more pleasure than beating Motherwell or Aberdeen, or dare I say it ..... Gala Fairydean ... God bless em.So we should keep small teams that dae things properly out in favour of big teams that cheat just because they are big teams?

[Twa Cairpets]

So we should keep small teams that dae things properly out in favour of big teams that cheat just because they are big teams?

No, of course not. But the fact is that the legal entity notwithstanding, newhun is clearly a continuation of oldhun in on-the-pitch footballing terms. Same manager, some of the same players, probably same stadium. If it looks like the huns and smells like the huns, it probably the huns. Whether or not they have "their history" I dont care beyond taking the p!ss.

I agree with Bovril, they should be punished for what they have done and our entirely rational loathing of them as an institution shouldnt blind us to the sporting element. It is more fun to beat the Hun than it is to beat, say, Raith.

They are beneath contempt and deserve what should happen to them, but what should happen to them is div 3.

[Kaiser1962]

My point was really made in my post after the one you quoted when I pointed out that Dingwall, with a population one third of Gala's, are preparing their club for the SPL having achieved that status fair and square. The big club, on the other hand, are going to be lucky if their custodians avoid prison.

Had we followed your argument Ross County should never have been allowed to enter the SFL, never mind the SPL.



I'm well aware of the Fairydean's efforts to get into the SFL in the past. But they are a classic example of what my post was about.

In what possible context could the Fairydean bring anything to the table which would set them apart from Annan, Peterhead, Elgin etc. In football terms they would be as worthy of entry to the SFL as any other club. But the point is that we are talking about professional football and like it or not a decision to allow a club with 200 fans into a league in front of a club with a stadium fit to host International football and the ability, in time, to fill that stadium would be just stupid.

I want to see Scottish football back on an even keel, with fair play and fair finances. Part of that is to have as many big games as possible and historically Hibs v Rangers has been a match to look forward to. Do you think Hibs v Gala Fairydean is a suitable replacement for that?

Yes ... we could do without the bigotry, the arrogance and a few other things that Rangers have historically carried with them, but I want to see football working towards stamping that stuff out .... sure getting rid of Rangers ( in any form ) would go a long way to ending all that, but I would rather we did it through education and zero tolerance.

My final part of this argument is this ....... Rangers have cheated for 20 years, not 120 years .... yes I fkng hate them ... always have and always will, but watching Hibs beat a club 10 times bigger than us, on the few times we are able to do it, gives me a hell of a lot more pleasure than beating Motherwell or Aberdeen, or dare I say it ..... Gala Fairydean ... God bless em.

[Kato]

My final part of this argument is this ....... Rangers have cheated for 20 years, not 120 years ....


Errm. Think about that for a second.

[jgl07]

My final part of this argument is this ....... Rangers have cheated for 20 years, not 120 years .... yes I fkng hate them ... always have and always will, but watching Hibs beat a club 10 times bigger than us, on the few times we are able to do it, gives me a hell of a lot more pleasure than beating Motherwell or Aberdeen, or dare I say it ..... Gala Fairydean ... God bless em.

I think that the jury is still out on how much cheating Rangers have been responsible for. And I don't think that it is restricted to the last 20 years.

The dominance of Rangers and Celtic in Scottish football from the 1900s through to the Souness era cannot be explained other than by systematic corruption. Financial muscle was not really an issue until the pre-Souness era. Yet they monopolised most of the trophies bar a few spells of hegemony by other clubs - Hibs in the late 1940s early 1950s, Hearts in the late 1950s, Aberdeen and Dundee United in the early 1980s.

The situation saw Rangers and Celtic take every League Championship between 1904 and 1947 apart from Motherwell's win in 1931-32. I suspect that the wage rates were much the same for all clubs over this period. The only explanation is systematic corruption covering everything from referees to player registrations.

Over the same period in England, the trophies were shared around a lot more. The dominance of the big clubs only started after the end of the maximum wage. It only became marked in the Premier League era from the 1990s onwards.

[sadtom]

In the 15 years, from 1971 to the start of the 'money' era in the 1986 season with souness/holmes and soon after minty moonbeams. When the start of spending money they never had began
The huns average attendance was 24,465.
During this time they won the league 3 times - r/u 3 times - third 4 times - 4th 3 times - 5th - 2 times.
They still won the european cup winners cup, 5 scottish cups, 6 league cups - which included 2 trebles.

In the same period Hibernians average was 10,352 (this included a season in the 1st div - if you excluded the attendance that season then the average for the other 14 seasons is 10,772)
During this time of course we won solitary 1 league cup, and a 1st division title because we were also relegated.
We finished the league 2nd x2 - 3rd x2 - 4th x2 - 5th x1 - 6th x2 - 7th x2 - 8th x2 - 10th(R) x1 & 1st div winners x1.
Despite that their atendances are not even 1.4 x our gates.

How did we ever survive!?!?!?

Any financial argument that insist der stickies must be back in the SPL asap is not based on them being in the league. It is only based on them having massive success and being absolutely dominant. They have only been able to manage this by cheating. ie spending money they never had, running up a bill, then running away from the said bill.
So if we are to find salvation in the 'orange pound' then we have to let them win with monotonous regularity.
The whole notion that we need their financial support for survival is based on the giant they became only because they were inflated with stolen hot air.
A pi$$ poor or even average rankers has no where near the same financial importance.
So do we roll over and let them tickle our bellies when they do get in the spl just so their supporters turn up.
Or do we take this opportunity to see exactly what we need to do to not have to rely on letting them win.

[grunt]

The welcome return of RangersTaxCase:

http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/never-a-penalty-19-2/

[Pete]

In the 15 years, from 1971 to the start of the 'money' era in the 1986 season with souness/holmes and soon after minty moonbeams. When the start of spending money they never had began
The huns average attendance was 24,465.
During this time they won the league 3 times - r/u 3 times - third 4 times - 4th 3 times - 5th - 2 times.
They still won the european cup winners cup, 5 scottish cups, 6 league cups - which included 2 trebles.

In the same period Hibernians average was 10,352 (this included a season in the 1st div - if you excluded the attendance that season then the average for the other 14 seasons is 10,772)
During this time of course we won solitary 1 league cup, and a 1st division title because we were also relegated.
We finished the league 2nd x2 - 3rd x2 - 4th x2 - 5th x1 - 6th x2 - 7th x2 - 8th x2 - 10th(R) x1 & 1st div winners x1.
Despite that their atendances are not even 1.4 x our gates.

How did we ever survive!?!?!?

Any financial argument that insist der stickies must be back in the SPL asap is not based on them being in the league. It is only based on them having massive success and being absolutely dominant. They have only been able to manage this by cheating. ie spending money they never had, running up a bill, then running away from the said bill.
So if we are to find salvation in the 'orange pound' then we have to let them win with monotonous regularity.
The whole notion that we need their financial support for survival is based on the giant they became only because they were inflated with stolen hot air.
A pi$$ poor or even average rankers has no where near the same financial importance.
So do we roll over and let them tickle our bellies when they do get in the spl just so their supporters turn up.
Or do we take this opportunity to see exactly what we need to do to not have to rely on letting them win.

Good post reminding people about the way things were but this is now far removed from the combined strategy for "the good of the game".

Since the mid-nineties they authorities have encouraged a strategy of letting the old firm spearhead the Scottish game. They will become the big forces and bring success in Europe. This will have a knock-on/ trickle down effect for the other clubs...they will improve due to the financial benefits of the old-firm success and while they might not win trophies on a regular basis, they will be of a sufficient quality for the fans to stick with.

I'm sorry but it hasn't worked. Fans of the other clubs now realise that all the authorities are doing is trying to protect this model. It wouldn't suit the individuals in charge to really change football and distribute wealth around the clubs. They have the nerve to release documents telling people they are afraid of change yet the purpose of the document is to frighten clubs into thinking that any other way apart from the old, old-firm focused way is unacceptable!

Rangers are at the mercy of the rest of the clubs in Scotland, as are Celtic to an extent. I'm sure everyone would love a more "socialist" style of wealth distribution in the game which would result in more competition. Everyone apart from the old firm and the governing bodies of course!

The percentage of our population who attend football is one of the highest in Europe yet something like 70% of them go to see either one of two clubs! The crowds flock to Glasgow from cities and towns whose clubs are dying because people want to see purchased glory or revel in bigotry. The old firm and their media go mad at any concept of "unfair" wealth distribution but they should consider where their fans are from and who they are weakening by robbing their customer base. These issues should have been foreseen and addressed years ago and they are suddenly panicking now one of the behemoths has collapsed.
We're not a big enough country to artificially inflate two clubs and still expect others to maintain any level of competition. Apart from La Liga, how many other leagues have only two clubs who could ever dream about winning the top prize and the others have been ground down and conditioned to accept third place as top prize?

[joe breezy]

The welcome return of RangersTaxCase:

http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/never-a-penalty-19-2/

Good article but it's so frustrating as he is just stating the downright obvious yet we have the mainstream media, bar one channel 4 journalist and at times Jim Spence, continually spout pro Rangers propaganda.

[Hibrandenburg]

In the 15 years, from 1971 to the start of the 'money' era in the 1986 season with souness/holmes and soon after minty moonbeams. When the start of spending money they never had began
The huns average attendance was 24,465.
During this time they won the league 3 times - r/u 3 times - third 4 times - 4th 3 times - 5th - 2 times.
They still won the european cup winners cup, 5 scottish cups, 6 league cups - which included 2 trebles.

In the same period Hibernians average was 10,352 (this included a season in the 1st div - if you excluded the attendance that season then the average for the other 14 seasons is 10,772)
During this time of course we won solitary 1 league cup, and a 1st division title because we were also relegated.
We finished the league 2nd x2 - 3rd x2 - 4th x2 - 5th x1 - 6th x2 - 7th x2 - 8th x2 - 10th(R) x1 & 1st div winners x1.
Despite that their atendances are not even 1.4 x our gates.

How did we ever survive!?!?!?

Any financial argument that insist der stickies must be back in the SPL asap is not based on them being in the league. It is only based on them having massive success and being absolutely dominant. They have only been able to manage this by cheating. ie spending money they never had, running up a bill, then running away from the said bill.
So if we are to find salvation in the 'orange pound' then we have to let them win with monotonous regularity.
The whole notion that we need their financial support for survival is based on the giant they became only because they were inflated with stolen hot air.
A pi$$ poor or even average rankers has no where near the same financial importance.
So do we roll over and let them tickle our bellies when they do get in the spl just so their supporters turn up.
Or do we take this opportunity to see exactly what we need to do to not have to rely on letting them win.
10/10

[Hibrandenburg]

Good post reminding people about the way things were but this is now far removed from the combined strategy for "the good of the game".

Since the mid-nineties they authorities have encouraged a strategy of letting the old firm spearhead the Scottish game. They will become the big forces and bring success in Europe. This will have a knock-on/ trickle down effect for the other clubs...they will improve due to the financial benefits of the old-firm success and while they might not win trophies on a regular basis, they will be of a sufficient quality for the fans to stick with.

I'm sorry but it hasn't worked. Fans of the other clubs now realise that all the authorities are doing is trying to protect this model. It wouldn't suit the individuals in charge to really change football and distribute wealth around the clubs. They have the nerve to release documents telling people they are afraid of change yet the purpose of the document is to frighten clubs into thinking that any other way apart from the old, old-firm focused way is unacceptable!

Rangers are at the mercy of the rest of the clubs in Scotland, as are Celtic to an extent. I'm sure everyone would love a more "socialist" style of wealth distribution in the game which would result in more competition. Everyone apart from the old firm and the governing bodies of course!

The percentage of our population who attend football is one of the highest in Europe yet something like 70% of them go to see either one of two clubs! The crowds flock to Glasgow from cities and towns whose clubs are dying because people want to see purchased glory or revel in bigotry. The old firm and their media go mad at any concept of "unfair" wealth distribution but they should consider where their fans are from and who they are weakening by robbing their customer base. These issues should have been foreseen and addressed years ago and they are suddenly panicking now one of the behemoths has collapsed.
We're not a big enough country to artificially inflate two clubs and still expect others to maintain any level of competition. Apart from La Liga, how many other leagues have only two clubs who could ever dream about winning the top prize and the others have been ground down and conditioned to accept third place as top prize?

10.5/10

[NAE NOOKIE]

My point was really made in my post after the one you quoted when I pointed out that Dingwall, with a population one third of Gala's, are preparing their club for the SPL having achieved that status fair and square. The big club, on the other hand, are going to be lucky if their custodians avoid prison.

Had we followed your argument Ross County should never have been allowed to enter the SFL, never mind the SPL.

I have no problem with Ross County or any other club getting into the league. But this situation is different. If at the time the Staggies applied they had been up against a huge club and County had been let in over them we would all have thought the SFL had lost their minds.

Yes in this instance the club concerned are a bunch of cheating barstewards, but it would be economic insanity to deny them entry to the SFL. Like it or not the SPL cubs have taken a huge financial hit over this.

To turn this on its head if it was any other club apart from rangers we wouldnt even be having this argument on this board.

[Saorsa]

No going tae quote both posts as they are long but :top marks tae sadtom & peterdouglas

[Saorsa]

To turn this on its head if it was any other club apart from rangers we wouldnt even be having this argument on this board.We wouldnae be having it because any other club would have been punished properly by the authorities by now and kicked out and made tae start like Gretna in the east of Scotland league or equivalent. There's be nae bribery or blackmail threats tae let any other club back in at SFL 1, they wouldnae even get in at SFL 3.

[Kaiser1962]

I have no problem with Ross County or any other club getting into the league. But this situation is different. If at the time the Staggies applied they had been up against a huge club and County had been let in over them we would all have thought the SFL had lost their minds.

Yes in this instance the club concerned are a bunch of cheating barstewards, but it would be economic insanity to deny them entry to the SFL. Like it or not the SPL cubs have taken a huge financial hit over this.

To turn this on its head if it was any other club apart from rangers we wouldnt even be having this argument on this board.

It appears, to me at least, that you are arguing that Rangers are "too big to fail". If it is "economic insanity" not to let them into the SFL why kick them out the SPL in the first place? It would be a bit like banning a drink driver except on a Friday because you need a lift home.

Rangers, by failing to live by the same financial rules as the rest of us, have CHOSEN this route. They could have agreed to pay their creditors out the average £50m per year they bring in, but they didnt. it is worth remembering that if they had they allocated 50% of their income they would still have had more than three times the funds of any other club outwith Celtic, with their debts cleared in about 5 years. Realistically they could have set aside around 12.5% and continued but they CHOSE not to. Rather they have decided exactly what you are arguing, despite repeated attempts to leave the Scottish Football over the years, that Scottish football cannot survive without them and they have calculated that they can bump the taxman, the taxpayer, their fellow members, their european colleagues and local businesses and we will all accept this.

Remember that Rangers pushed Airdrie out of business for £30k. No one seemed to care about them. As Dan has already said there is precedent and that is Gretna and I dont recall anybody really fighting their corner, least of all Rangers.

They have gambled that we are are all buying their propoganda when I, for one, have zero sympathy for them. We will survive perfectly well so hell mend them.

[marinello59]

We wouldnae be having it because any other club would have been punished properly by the authorities by now and kicked out and made tae start like Gretna in the east of Scotland league or equivalent. There's be nae bribery or blackmail threats tae let any other club back in at SFL 1, they wouldnae even get in at SFL 3.

Has the argument now become that newco shouldn't even get in to SFL3? The Newco gretna didn't get made to start in the East of Scotland league. Their lack of ground, support etc meant that they applied to the league that they were most suited to. Bovril may be drawing attention to some highly unpopular realities but there is merit in what he says. If a Newco rangers come up against the likes of Cove Rangers for entry to SFL3 then there is no doubt Newco Rangers would get the nod. The argument from many has that they should start at the bottom as they are a competely new team. We can't have it both ways by then claiming that they are the same team who cheated and shouldn't be considered for league membership on that basis. I would love it if they became totally extinct but given the massive size of their support that simply ain't gonna happen.

[Part/Time Supporter]

We wouldnae be having it because any other club would have been punished properly by the authorities by now and kicked out and made tae start like Gretna in the east of Scotland league or equivalent. There's be nae bribery or blackmail threats tae let any other club back in at SFL 1, they wouldnae even get in at SFL 3.

Airdrie United were allowed to apply for the vacancy in SFL3 when Airdrieonians went bust. They lost the vote to Gretna and then bought out Clydebank instead. Gretna 2008 didn't apply for the vacancy in SFL3 caused by Gretna going bust, but they could have.

Excluding "new Rangers" from any SFL vote for a vacancy in SFL3 would be going beyond fair justice and precedent.

[Caversham Green]

Has the argument now become that newco shouldn't even get in to SFL3? The Newco gretna didn't get made to start in the East of Scotland league. Their lack of ground, support etc meant that they applied to the league that they were most suited to. Bovril may be drawing attention to some highly unpopular realities but there is merit in what he says. If a Newco rangers come up against the likes of Cove Rangers for entry to SFL3 then there is no doubt Newco Rangers would get the nod. The argument from many has that they should start at the bottom as they are a competely new team. We can't have it both ways by then claiming that they are the same team who cheated and shouldn't be considered for league membership on that basis. I would love it if they became totally extinct but given the massive size of their support that simply ain't gonna happen.

As I understand it a club applying for entry into the SFL is required to provide business plans and projections - that can only be so that the League can assess its suitability and compare it with other applicants. On that basis Sevco would easily gain admission ahead of Cove, Gala or any other applicant club.

There is also a fixed entry point into the SFL, and that's the bottom division so no rules need to be broken.

[Saorsa]

Has the argument now become that newco shouldn't even get in to SFL3? The Newco gretna didn't get made to start in the East of Scotland league. Their lack of ground, support etc meant that they applied to the league that they were most suited to. Bovril may be drawing attention to some highly unpopular realities but there is merit in what he says. If a Newco rangers come up against the likes of Cove Rangers for entry to SFL3 then there is no doubt Newco Rangers would get the nod. The argument from many has that they should start at the bottom as they are a competely new team. We can't have it both ways by then claiming that they are the same team who cheated and shouldn't be considered for league membership on that basis. I would love it if they became totally extinct but given the massive size of their support that simply ain't gonna happen.SFL 3 is the only place they should be getting considered for and if they apply there I think there is little doubt they'll get it if they actually have a team tae put on the park. The behaviour of those running the game trying tae get them in anywhere else is a disgrace, they may be a new club with a new name but tae those running the game that is all the difference there is and it wouldnae be happening for any other club bar their ugly sister, had they gone down the pan, that's what's wrong here. Like you'd I'd like them tae disappear but I'm no daft enough tae think that will happen but they're a new club as per the rules that exist and they start at the bottom , end of IMO.

[StevieC]

SFL 3 is the only place they should be getting considered for and if they apply there I think there is little doubt they'll get it if they actually have a team tae put on the park.

This is one of the reasons I think that SFL3 is even beyond them at the moment. There is so much doubt just now over players, stadium ownership, available funding, financial backers, liquidation, court cases, etc. that even if Sevco were permitted into the league I have my doubts that they could survive a full season.

Of course, all of these points would be overlooked because "it's Rangers" but if their application was on merit there is no way they'd get entry.

Remember that Gretna got priority over the long serving Airdrionians when they reapplied. At the time Airdrie had similar issues over stadium ownership, players and funding and they never received any special treatment.

[Hibercelona]

I have no problem with Ross County or any other club getting into the league. But this situation is different. If at the time the Staggies applied they had been up against a huge club and County had been let in over them we would all have thought the SFL had lost their minds.

Yes in this instance the club concerned are a bunch of cheating barstewards, but it would be economic insanity to deny them entry to the SFL. Like it or not the SPL cubs have taken a huge financial hit over this.

To turn this on its head if it was any other club apart from rangers we wouldnt even be having this argument on this board.

Allowing Newco straight back into the SFL without the need for registration could effectively kill the game off for every other club, barr the OF.

I already know a huge number of people who have stated that they won't be back now to watch their teams, regardless of the outcome now.

Rangers won't save the game, they will save it for 2 clubs, while the rest are left to rot because their fanbases have simply had enough of this s***e.

Football is nothing without its fans, no matter how much money is pumped into it.

The game is effectively dead.

[alexedwards]

Any news on which way Cowdenbeath are going to vote?


The man from Cowdenbeath - he say "Yes". :tsk tsk:

[cabbageandribs1875]

i believe that official bigot findlay has been in talks over the weekend with bomber 'ned' brown, wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the hunbrox boardroom is once again filled with the smell of pipe tobacco smoke :agree:


http://www.rangerspedia.org/images/e/eb/Donald_Findlay_QC.JPG

[marinello59]

As I understand it a club applying for entry into the SFL is required to provide business plans and projections - that can only be so that the League can assess its suitability and compare it with other applicants. On that basis Sevco would easily gain admission ahead of Cove, Gala or any other applicant club.

There is also a fixed entry point into the SFL, and that's the bottom division so no rules need to be broken.

Which is the point I was making but not doing a very good job of it .:greengrin

[StevieC]

The game is effectively dead.

I view it as critically ill, but a slow recovery might be possible depending on the fast actions of the doctors.

You currently have the interns and junior doctors squabbling over the treatment they think is best and it needs Nick Jordan to step in with a scalpel, push aside everyone else and cut out the major clot that is causing the problem.

[Caversham Green]

Which is the point I was making but not doing a very good job of it .:greengrin

Not at all - I was supporting your comment rather than disputing it, but not doing a very good job of it.

My 300th post on this thread - I'm off out to look for a life.

[StevieC]

As I understand it a club applying for entry into the SFL is required to provide business plans and projections - that can only be so that the League can assess its suitability and compare it with other applicants. On that basis Sevco would easily gain admission ahead of Cove, Gala or any other applicant club.

You think?

What would it cost to run Rangers for a season and how much capital does Green have?
Who are Sevco's financial backers?
Who owns the stadium and could this be taken back by the liquidators if D&P are deemed to have acted incorrectly?
How many players do they have signed?
What guarantee can they provide that Green will continue to stay in charge and fund any financial short-falls?
Will FIFA intervene regarding the outstanding football debts?

I would suggest that there are so many unknown quantities that an application from a better run non-league club would actually look better on paper.

[leggeto]

Aye ... right enough ... one things for sure, admittance to the SFL has got nothing to do with how long a club has waited to get in.

Let me think ... a handfull of clubs with seating for 200 and standing room for 2,000 more, with no prospect of ever growing their fanbase or ever having a hope of changing the demographics of Scottish football.

Lets look at some the clubs who have been admitted recently:

Annan Athetic ....... doing what ?

Peterhead .... what impact have they made ?

Inverness Caledonian Thistle .... most disappointing of all IMO ... there was a club from a town where you were guaranteed a good crowd for Scottish cup ties when it had only Highland league clubs. I thought it was brilliant when ICT joined the league .. heres a club who can be the next Dundee Utd and really bring something to the table was my thinking.

Instead of that they have a rubbish stadium and home crowds of about 4,000.

So lets be realistic .... newco current buns should be a shoe in for SFL membership. Its one thing cutting off your nose to spite you face. Its quite another cutting off your whole bloody head.

Dont ya think ?

fair point,you wont get a club anywhere near the fanbase of the newco but you have to start somewhere, what about lithgie rose better crowds than most for a junior team:flag:

[Twa Cairpets]

Allowing Newco straight back into the SFL without the need for registration could effectively kill the game off for every other club, barr the OF.

I already know a huge number of people who have stated that they won't be back now to watch their teams, regardless of the outcome now.

Rangers won't save the game, they will save it for 2 clubs, while the rest are left to rot because their fanbases have simply had enough of this s***e.

Football is nothing without its fans, no matter how much money is pumped into it.

The game is effectively dead.

I think this is overly melodramatic, at least at the moment.
What appears to be the most likely outcome is that newzombiehun will be in SFL3, and that for me is the just footballing punishment, if not morally appropriate.

What is very encouraging is that despite the clear direction given from one, some or all of the games administrators (yet to be confirmed who) for somwhow fudging a hun-friendly compromise, the outrage from fans at the injustice of it seems likely to have resulted in what the vast majority view as the right outcome.

I don think the game is dead at all. Its in a difficult place, and the ripples of fallout will happen for a long time, but fundamentally football is just too good a game not to find its level.

[joe breezy]

I think this is overly melodramatic, at least at the moment.
What appears to be the most likely outcome is that newzombiehun will be in SFL3, and that for me is the just footballing punishment, if not morally appropriate.

What is very encouraging is that despite the clear direction given from one, some or all of the games administrators (yet to be confirmed who) for somwhow fudging a hun-friendly compromise, the outrage from fans at the injustice of it seems likely to have resulted in what the vast majority view as the right outcome.

I don think the game is dead at all. Its in a difficult place, and the ripples of fallout will happen for a long time, but fundamentally football is just too good a game not to find its level.


If they get into Division 3 that is not a punishment. it is a consequence of the club being liquidated and them having to start a new one.

Don't want to be pedantic but it's important we don't start using the hunspeak of the media.

[lapsedhibee]

If they get into Division 3 that is not a punishment. it is a consequence of the club being liquidated and them having to start a new one.

Don't want to be pedantic but it's important we don't start using the hunspeak of the media.

:agree: Very good point.

[Twa Cairpets]

If they get into Division 3 that is not a punishment. it is a consequence of the club being liquidated and them having to start a new one.

Don't want to be pedantic but it's important we don't start using the hunspeak of the media.

I agree - thats why I very specifically said "in footballing terms".

It's not being the slightest an apologist for the Hun (the mere thought makes me want to vomit my own pancreas up), but if the reality of the situation is that (as posted a few pages back) if it looks like a hun and smells like a hun it is likely to be, to all intents and purposes, a hun.

If they relinquish the link with the past from a footballing point of view that is entirely window dressing, if not fun to poke huns with (We've won the Scottish Cup more recently than you is one that springs to mind), but in practical terms it is meaningless. The punishment will be meted out on oldhun. The morality of it is entirely questionable, sure, but the legal side of it (non-footballing) is going through the process it needs to go through. From a football point of view, SFL3 feels about right.

I hasten to add if they were to disappear forever I would lose not a jot of sleep, but dont see that happening.

[jonty]

If they get into Division 3 that is not a punishment. it is a consequence of the club being liquidated and them having to start a new one.

Don't want to be pedantic but it's important we don't start using the hunspeak of the media.

Correct - I sometimes forget that we're still awaiting the outcomes of EBTs etc

Since theyve gone into administration, I assume that means that oldco wont be chased for the money, but SDM and CW will be pursued by Hector?
And (it's been a while) the BTC was part of the tax dodging in the EBTs?:confused:

Is there a list of outstanding charges (and resolved ones) since the start of this mess? :dizzy:

[ScottB]

Yes indeed, this isn't any sort of punishment at all and needs to be stop being thought of that way.

It is deciding how to treat a brand new club.

Now, I can appreciate the point of view that they should start in some Junior league, however as others have said, in practical terms keeping the newco, which in a legal sense is not the same cheating club it has replaced, out of the SFL completely is next to impossible. I'd rather dump them into SFL3 than have them instead try and pull an Airdrie and put some other club to the sword to get back in that way: Rangers wouldn't be content to stay in a Junior set up I suspect! This of course assumes that the SFL clubs choose them, or that any other clubs would apply along with them.

Hopefully the Pyramid system comes in soon and gives those other clubs a chance to get in too.

[Caversham Green]

You think?

What would it cost to run Rangers for a season and how much capital does Green have?
Who are Sevco's financial backers?
Who owns the stadium and could this be taken back by the liquidators if D&P are deemed to have acted incorrectly?
How many players do they have signed?
What guarantee can they provide that Green will continue to stay in charge and fund any financial short-falls?
Will FIFA intervene regarding the outstanding football debts?

I would suggest that there are so many unknown quantities that an application from a better run non-league club would actually look better on paper.

The point of the business plan is to answer the basic financial questions you ask, but Rangers are guaranteed a much bigger fan base (and therefore income) than any other likely applicant and that in itself would put them at the head of the queue. To answer your questions in order:

The business plan would outline the running costs and source of funds - if it didn't work they wouldn't be admitted - but Green has made no bones about being in this to make money, so you wouldn't expect the business plan to show a shortfall.
Sevco's financial backers would have to be identified as part of the application, same as any other club.
Obviously the club would have to show they had the right to use the stadium either by freehold or lease. If the SFL felt there was a threat of the stadium being reclaimed they would have to seek assurances, but I haven't actually seen anything to suggest this might happen other than speculation on forums like this. Personally I think it's unlikely and a more likely outcome would be D&P being sued for any under-recovery.
I doubt if they would have much difficulty signing SFL3 (or slightly higher) standard players given their name and probable financial clout.
Again, Green is in this for the money - the business plan would show them making money rather than losing it, otherwise he wouldn't be there.
The football debts are with the Oldco - being a new club means the new Rangers have no footballing debts, that's why they should be applying at the bottom end of the league.

Anyway, nice going - you've got me arguing the huns' corner here :grr:.

[Northernhibee]

This thread is utter comedy.

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=224820&st=0

All of a sudden the Sevco 'supporters' have dosh to buy (and then cancel) orders on Audis.

Let's face it, those fuds couldn't afford a Domino's pizza takeaway to phone up and cancel, let alone a sports car.

:lolrangers:

[PatHead]

This thread is utter comedy.

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=224820&st=0

All of a sudden the Sevco 'supporters' have dosh to buy (and then cancel) orders on Audis.

Let's face it, those fuds couldn't afford a Domino's pizza takeaway to phone up and cancel, let alone a sports car.

:lolrangers:

Take it that will be Volkswagens/Seats/Skodas as well. Got to remember they are already not buying Vauxhall's due to their association with SFA. If Uefa take sanctions that will be Ford and Hyundia gone. I'm really scared they will bring the whole of Europe down with these threats!

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes indeed, this isn't any sort of punishment at all and needs to be stop being thought of that way.

It is deciding how to treat a brand new club.

Now, I can appreciate the point of view that they should start in some Junior league, however as others have said, in practical terms keeping the newco, which in a legal sense is not the same cheating club it has replaced, out of the SFL completely is next to impossible. I'd rather dump them into SFL3 than have them instead try and pull an Airdrie and put some other club to the sword to get back in that way: Rangers wouldn't be content to stay in a Junior set up I suspect! This of course assumes that the SFL clubs choose them, or that any other clubs would apply along with them.

Hopefully the Pyramid system comes in soon and gives those other clubs a chance to get in too.

:agree:

I'd love to see them kept out of Div3, but there is precedent for letting a brand new club in at that level. Inverness CT were formed and immediately admitted to the SFL for economic reasons in 1994.

[pogo]

Take it that will be Volkswagens/Seats/Skodas as well. Got to remember they are already not buying Vauxhall's due to their association with SFA. If Uefa take sanctions that will be Ford and Hyundia gone. I'm really scared they will bring the whole of Europe down with these threats!

They'll have to do walking away, as there'll be no car manufacturers left that they'll be able to buy!
Will they start refusing taxis if they are any of these brands?
I've got a 2001 Renault Scenic for sale, maybe I should put it up on FF or RM, may get some interest? Or is that on the list as well? Wish they'd do a proper list, updated hourly, so we can keep up!

[jgl07]

:agree:

I'd love to see them kept out of Div3, but there is precedent for letting a brand new club in at that level. Inverness CT were formed and immediately admitted to the SFL for economic reasons in 1994.

But they were not a new club. They have the history of Caledonian FC who dated back to 1885. OK they merged with Inverness Thistle who date back to 1893. No Newco there.

[Northernhibee]

Morals and integrity are fine but we must all be sure we can cope with the fall out, which would be considerable.

Clubs will cut right back on numbers as we're already seeing with Hibernian who have just paid off Pat Fenlon's deputy Billy Brown.

Players and wages will be next, although the first real casualty is more likely to be youth development.

Another delightful quote from Jim Traynor.

No mention that BB was out of contract.

Or that we've just signed James McPake.

Or anything to back up his youth development statement.

Or figures about what the size of the fallout would be.

[PatHead]

Are the SFL taking a vote tomorrow or is it just a meeting to discuss Servco?

[jgl07]

Another delightful quote from Jim Traynor.

No mention that BB was out of contract.

Or that we've just signed James McPake.

Or anything to back up his youth development statement.

Or figures about what the size of the fallout would be.

'Paid off' Billy Brown?

His one year contract ran out and was not renewed. That is hardly the same thing.

[StevieC]

The point of the business plan is to answer the basic financial questions you ask, but Rangers are guaranteed a much bigger fan base (and therefore income) than any other likely applicant and that in itself would put them at the head of the queue. To answer your questions in order:

The business plan would outline the running costs and source of funds - if it didn't work they wouldn't be admitted - but Green has made no bones about being in this to make money, so you wouldn't expect the business plan to show a shortfall.
Sevco's financial backers would have to be identified as part of the application, same as any other club.
Obviously the club would have to show they had the right to use the stadium either by freehold or lease. If the SFL felt there was a threat of the stadium being reclaimed they would have to seek assurances, but I haven't actually seen anything to suggest this might happen other than speculation on forums like this. Personally I think it's unlikely and a more likely outcome would be D&P being sued for any under-recovery.
I doubt if they would have much difficulty signing SFL3 (or slightly higher) standard players given their name and probable financial clout.
Again, Green is in this for the money - the business plan would show them making money rather than losing it, otherwise he wouldn't be there.
The football debts are with the Oldco - being a new club means the new Rangers have no footballing debts, that's why they should be applying at the bottom end of the league.

Anyway, nice going - you've got me arguing the huns' corner here :grr:.

All fair assumptions .. But they are still assumptions.

You are assuming that supporters back Green with season tickets and attending games, nobody knows how many so how can you forecast expected income.

They could sign players but as yet they haven't, so how much will this business plan have set out for player wages?

The debts are with oldco but FIFA intervention on footballing debts might still be possible with NewCo, especially given that they are intending to take footballing credits from Everton.

As I say, any business plan is based on a lot of assumptions rather than actual figures.

And for that reason .. I'm out!

[lapsedhibee]

Another delightful quote from Jim Traynor.

No mention that BB was out of contract.

Or that we've just signed James McPake.

Or anything to back up his youth development statement.

Or figures about what the size of the fallout would be.

If the BBC are going to continue to spend licencepayers' money on airhead cheerleaders, Shirley they could get people with better thrupennies than Traynor? :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

But they were not a new club. They have the history of Caledonian FC who dated back to 1885. OK they merged with Inverness Thistle who date back to 1893. No Newco there.

Don't know precisely how the merger happened but there is a new company registered as of 1994:

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/SC149117

[Andy74]

Can this newco sign new players?

They seem to have signed a 20 year old who was out of contract at the old Rangers.

[McSwanky]

Another delightful quote from Jim Traynor.

No mention that BB was out of contract.

Or that we've just signed James McPake.

Or anything to back up his youth development statement.

Or figures about what the size of the fallout would be.

Just read that entire article. The man is unbelievable. Traynor should take a look at himself and start to realise that he and his ilk are a massive (and I don't mean just physically massive, Jim) part of the problem.

[Northernhibee]

Just read that entire article. The man is unbelievable. Traynor should take a look at himself and start to realise that he and his ilk are a massive (and I don't mean just physically massive, Jim) part of the problem.

And yet the numpties over on Sevcomedia think he's a **** as he referred to The Rangers as a 'new club' and would like a totally unbiased and fair article in support of them.

The mind boggles.

[jgl07]

Don't know precisely how the merger happened but there is a new company registered as of 1994:

http://companycheck.co.uk/company/SC149117

Yes but the club as an entity were not new. It was no different from the current Hibs who were formed as a new company by Tom Farmer when he spun the club off from the holding company.

The merger was basically forced by the Enterprise Agency and the SFL who said they not be financed or admitted unless the three Inverness clubs merged (Clachnacuddin later pulled out and stayed in the Highland League).

Caledonian were keen to go it alone in the SFL. I suspect that they would have progressed faster than the merged club did.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes but the club as an entity were not new. It was no different from the current Hibs who were formed as a new company by Tom Farmer when he spun the club off from the holding company.

The merger was basically forced by the Enterprise Agency and the SFL who said they not be financed or admitted unless the three Inverness clubs merged (Clachnacuddin later pulled out and stayed in the Highland League).

Caledonian were keen to go it alone in the SFL. I suspect that they would have progressed faster than the merged club did.

I take your point on ICT but you don't want to go around saying things like the above about Hibs in case any Huns are around. It's not true anyway. Hibernian FC is the same company that was incorporated in 1903. Its shares have been owned by other companies including Farmer's holding company but there has never been a Hibs newco!

[degenerated]

good attempt at scare mongering in the daily ****** today, this will be getting cranked up a notch or two on a daily basis i would imagine.


RANGERS are unwanted by clubs in the lower leagues.

But unless one of the three divisions gives them a home in time for the start of next season the SFL itself faces the prospect of going bust.

And the survival of as many as 20 clubs is feared to be hanging in the balance.

Former Rangers manager Walter Smith has publicly voiced his fears for a Scottish game that gives every indication of being in meltdown.

“Everyone is going to start to have a fear now about the very future of Scottish football,” he said at the weekend.

“If Rangers go to the Third Division – or even the First and are not competitive – it’s going to affect the whole of Scottish football in a drastic way.”

But last night the worry for a lot of SFL clubs was what might happen if Rangers aren’t admitted to one of the three leagues outside of the SPL.

The full extent of the chaos within Scottish football was laid bare yesterday by one vastly experienced club official, who requested anonymity in the currently toxic atmosphere which can pollute sensitive issues within the game.

And he put forward the case for and against Rangers being admitted to the SFL in stark financial terms before getting to the emotional argument that has prompted a series of clubs to raise objections to having Ibrox on their fixture list sometime soon.

The club official said: “Each year the SFL receives £1.8million under the terms of the settlement agreement drawn up when the SPL was started up.

“It’s like a divorce settlement and that money works out at roughly £60,000 per SFL club.

“If the payment wasn’t there some clubs could struggle by without it – but others would go to the wall.

“It’s not just Rangers and their supporters who have been affected by the crisis engulfing the game in this country. This goes to the doorstep of all 42 clubs in Scotland.

“That’s why the teams in the SFL have to be pragmatic on this issue. Club 12 in the SPL fixture list is Rangers for the moment but the top-flight clubs will vote no to a newco when they meet at Hampden on Wednesday. Club 12 will then become Dundee unless the SPL goes for the nuclear option. That is to have an 11-team league while Rangers sit it out for a year and come back to ask if they can have a share in the SPL back again.

“It is possible the SPL could decide not to fill the vacancy they would have after Wednesday’s vote to exclude Rangers.

“But they appear to be on a charm offensive to get the SFL to take on Rangers.”

An onlooker might wonder why the lower-league clubs would be resistant to the idea of having the Rangers support swell their income for the season by playing in their division, whichever one it turns out to be.

Particularly when the sum of £60,000 might be enough to tip some of them over the edge if it’s no longer there.

The answer is that the lower orders might be poor but they’re principled, according to the club official with years of experience in the hand-to-mouth business.

He said: “Rangers are regarded as pariahs, or social outcasts if you like. They have flouted every rule and attempted to get away with it while not showing any sign of contrition whatsoever.

“The reality, however, is that we don’t want them but one of our leagues is going to have to take them under sufferance.

“You can understand why clubs like Falkirk, Dunfermline and Morton have raised objections to having them in the First.

“They are paying good money to players and don’t want to see their promotion prospects dashed before a ball is kicked. But there are other clubs who have no pretensions towards promotion. “They simply don’t want the newco to be admitted to their league because they think Rangers have broken too many rules to be acceptable.”

There’s also resentment within the clubs outwith the SPL that the top 12 have collectively ducked their responsibilities and passed them on to somebody else to put up with the inconvenience.

Our insider said: “The SFL clubs feel they’re being bounced into this marriage of convenience. Turnbull Hutton, the Raith Rovers director, said at the weekend that he felt SFL clubs were being blackmailed and bullied into allowing a Rangers newco into the First Division.

“There has also been a veiled threat that if the clubs in the First Division don’t play ball then an SPL 2 will be formed and some of them will get left behind in a way that leaves their very futures in the game uncertain.

“Put it this way, Rangers have become a real problem and the affair has turned the game in general into an absolute mess.

“The SPL are taking their banana skin and throwing it into the SFL’s garden for them to deal with.

“But what guarantee do we have that Rangers could fulfil all of their fixtures in the season ahead? There has been talk of a million pound bond being put up by them against the First Division being thrown into chaos.

“Livingston were asked for £970,000 in bond money when they were in the First Division and facing liquidation.

“But then Livingston were ordered to be relegated to the Third Division and that idea was made redundant.”

All of these matters may or may not be discussed at an SFL meeting that is scheduled to take place tomorrow.

Now it transpires two clubs, Stenhousemuir and Alloa Athletic, think that meeting should be called off and the banana skin thrown back into the SPL’s garden.

The SFL season, meanwhile, kicks off on July 28 with the first round of the Ramsdens Cup and the clock is ticking.

In more ways than one it would seem.

[blackpoolhibs]

good attempt at scare mongering in the daily ****** today, this will be getting cranked up a notch or two on a daily basis i would imagine.

Exactly, how have they managed to stay afloat without Rangers all this time?:confused:

[Twa Cairpets]

good attempt at scare mongering in the daily ****** today, this will be getting cranked up a notch or two on a daily basis i would imagine.

The article contains direct quotes from Walter Smith. Im assuming this is the same Walter Smith who was cheerleading how greatit would be for Scotland if OldHun went south?

Vile.

[Andy74]

Exactly, how have they managed to stay afloat without Rangers all this time?:confused:

Aye, didn't quite follow that myself.

A quick look at the Sunday papers at my in laws at the weekend just made me feel ill to be honest with the absolute garbage written on this whole thing.

[Caversham Green]

All fair assumptions .. But they are still assumptions.

You are assuming that supporters back Green with season tickets and attending games, nobody knows how many so how can you forecast expected income.

They could sign players but as yet they haven't, so how much will this business plan have set out for player wages?

The debts are with oldco but FIFA intervention on footballing debts might still be possible with NewCo, especially given that they are intending to take footballing credits from Everton.

As I say, any business plan is based on a lot of assumptions rather than actual figures.

And for that reason .. I'm out!

Hang on, we're getting way beyond the point of my original comment here. All I was saying is Rangers will almost certainly be able to produce a business plan that shows them to be far better candidates for admission to the SFL than any other club that's likely to apply. Like it or not, they will bring more fans, attract more media interest and sponsorship and be able to sign a higher standard of player. That doesn't mean they should be allowed to bypass the correct process by entering at a higher level than Div 3 though.

[lapsedhibee]

Exactly, how have they managed to stay afloat without Rangers all this time?:confused:

Up until now, their stands have been filled to bursting with locals who've been seduced by the glamour which has attached to the whole of Scottish fitba as a result of the hugely successful spearheading of our game in Europe year in year out by the OF. :agree:

[grunt]

good attempt at scare mongering in the daily ****** today...


...unless one of the three divisions gives them a home in time for the start of next season the SFL itself faces the prospect of going bust.

The sky is falling.

[Andy74]

Hang on, we're getting way beyond the point of my original comment here. All I was saying is Rangers will almost certainly be able to produce a business plan that shows them to be far better candidates for admission to the SFL than any other club that's likely to apply. Like it or not, they will bring more fans, attract more media interest and sponsorship and be able to sign a higher standard of player. That doesn't mean they should be allowed to bypass the correct process by entering at a higher level than Div 3 though.

Is the crux of the whole thing though that no-one is looking for current rules to be bypassed?

What is being suggested is a complete re-write of the football structure that would bring with it a totally new set up with new rules.

Much like the SPL being membership based this new league could take the opportunity to invite whoever they want to start in a particular new structure so long as everyone signing up to set this up agree.

You can argue that this shouldn't just have been done now and it looks like it is just to accomodate Rangers but that's for the members to decide if they want to or not.

[Bishop Hibee]

Paul McConville writes an excellent article on the current state of play:

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/scottish-football-in-chaos-what-must-spl-sfa-sfl-do-to-start-season/

There is no leadership at the moment and the SFA et al need to get a grip and force the issue with sevco Rangers not wait to see what Green and co do.

Also the silence from Celtc is deafening and it is about time Lowell played his cards.

[JeMeSouviens]

Just read the Traynor article. **** me, it's the written equivalent of a Bomber Brown rallying cry. :rolleyes:

[Paisley Hibby]

If they get into Division 3 that is not a punishment. it is a consequence of the club being liquidated and them having to start a new one.

Don't want to be pedantic but it's important we don't start using the hunspeak of the media.

Exactly - and for that reason no other punishments (fines, transfer embargoes etc). Also, no history.

However, the investigations about what the Oldco did should continue. If, as seems likely, these disclose years of cheating, then Scottish football records for the relevant period should be changed. Every championship and cup win by Rangers should be amended to say something like "award withdrawn".

[jgl07]

Hang on, we're getting way beyond the point of my original comment here. All I was saying is Rangers will almost certainly be able to produce a business plan that shows them to be far better candidates for admission to the SFL than any other club that's likely to apply. Like it or not, they will bring more fans, attract more media interest and sponsorship and be able to sign a higher standard of player. That doesn't mean they should be allowed to bypass the correct process by entering at a higher level than Div 3 though.

Would the overheads involved with running at Ibrox be covered by the support likely to be generated in Division Three?

If things are as hands to mouth with Sevco as has been suggested by press reports, there may be doubts.

I assume that the player who have transferred over have done so because their contracts with Rangers are worth far more than they are likely to attract elsewhere even as free agents. Thus Rangers could be left with the deadwood as the salable assets have walked.

If the supporters groups and sponsors continue to play chicken with Green in the hope of forcing him to sell out, there could be problems.

The fact that none of the mainstram bankers would touch Green with a bargepole is indicative of problems.

[adhibs]

is it true what was in the scotsman article a few pages back that they only need 16 votes instead of 22 from sfl clubs tpo gain entry? havent seen that mentiond anywhere else

not that there certain to get 16 anyway but if it was still 22 id be sleeping a lot easier

[jgl07]

is it true what was in the scotsman article a few pages back that they only need 16 votes instead of 22 from sfl clubs tpo gain entry? havent seen that mentiond anywhere else

not that there certain to get 16 anyway but if it was still 22 id be sleeping a lot easier

I don't think it will make any difference whatsoever.

[Caversham Green]

Is the crux of the whole thing though that no-one is looking for current rules to be bypassed?

What is being suggested is a complete re-write of the football structure that would bring with it a totally new set up with new rules.

Much like the SPL being membership based this new league could take the opportunity to invite whoever they want to start in a particular new structure so long as everyone signing up to set this up agree.

You can argue that this shouldn't just have been done now and it looks like it is just to accomodate Rangers but that's for the members to decide if they want to or not.

Yes, my original point was that Sevco could legitimately leapfrog the likes of Cove and Gala into SFL 3 because their business plan would show them to be a more attractive candidate both from a financial and football point of view. My debate with StevieC was a side-issue from that. The problem we're seeing now is that certain people want Sevco in SFL1 and are prepare to restructure the whole game purely to satisfy their greed. The game undoubtedly needs to be restructured but to attempt that for a season that starts in less than five weeks is absolute lunacy IMO.

[Kaiser1962]

good attempt at scare mongering in the daily ****** today, this will be getting cranked up a notch or two on a daily basis i would imagine.

Hold on guys the Record article certainly has a point when it says 20 clubs could go bust.


One already has and that was with Rangers in the league :cb

[cabbageandribs1875]

is it true what was in the scotsman article a few pages back that they only need 16 votes instead of 22 from sfl clubs tpo gain entry? havent seen that mentiond anywhere else

not that there certain to get 16 anyway but if it was still 22 id be sleeping a lot easier


they moved the goalposts, if it then looks like they wont reach the 16 it will then become 14 etc etc

[Caversham Green]

Would the overheads involved with running at Ibrox be covered by the support likely to be generated in Division Three?

If things are as hands to mouth with Sevco as has been suggested by press reports, there may be doubts.

I assume that the player who have transferred over have done so because their contracts with Rangers are worth far more than they are likely to attract elsewhere even as free agents. Thus Rangers could be left with the deadwood as the salable assets have walked.

If the supporters groups and sponsors continue to play chicken with Green in the hope of forcing him to sell out, there could be problems.

The fact that none of the mainstram bankers would touch Green with a bargepole is indicative of problems.

If Green and his investors didn't think there was money to be made they would pull the plug - they may do so in the next few days, but for the moment they seem to be pushing ahead with their project. Whether it works or not remains to be seen, but we can probably assume they have a business plan that produces a positive end result for them.

My own opinion FWIW is that Sevco will be very lucky to be playing football at the end of the forthcoming season and there's a strong possibility that they might not see the start of it.

[adhibs]

they moved the goalposts, if it then looks like they wont reach the 16 it will then become 14 etc etc
wouldnt realy expect anything else from those that run scottish football. after the mess with rangers is finished i hope the same fan power continues to force changes in the sfa

[Jim44]

Just read the Traynor article. **** me, it's the written equivalent of a Bomber Brown rallying cry. :rolleyes:

Traynor bends with the wind. It's not so long since he was having a go at Rangers with Tom English. This week someone has farted in the direction of Ibrox and he's wafting in that direction because he sees the effect a Rangerless league will have on his career. Where is Tom English by the way? Talking of journos, I was pleasently surprised to see Stuart Bathgate say unequivocally that Rangers must be put down to Div.3. He had to spoil it 'tho by giving a negative, as is his wont, spin to Hibs signing McPake. Typical Jambo barsteward. :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

alexthomson twittering that SFL President and Airdrie Chairman Jim Ballantyne is saying Airdrie won't vote on any Rangers Newco issue because of conflicts of interest

Wonder what that's all about?

[Part/Time Supporter]

alexthomson twittering that SFL President and Airdrie Chairman Jim Ballantyne is saying Airdrie won't vote on any Rangers Newco issue because of conflicts of interest

Wonder what that's all about?

Ballantyne is a Rangers fan. He's been photographed on trips to their games.

[alexedwards]

is it true what was in the scotsman article a few pages back that they only need 16 votes instead of 22 from sfl clubs tpo gain entry? havent seen that mentiond anywhere else

not that there certain to get 16 anyway but if it was still 22 id be sleeping a lot easier

Link below indicates they have voted on restructure before and rejected it in 2007 - can't believe they conveniently forgot what the voting structure was on this occasion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_div_1/6573379.stm

You would have to assume someone, somewhere was trying to set up a smokescreen.

[lapsedhibee]

Ballantyne is a Rangers fan. He's been photographed on trips to their games.

So Cowdenbeath should do same. Wonder where DodoFC are going to get the votes now for admission to div 3?

[ballengeich]

alexthomson twittering that SFL President and Airdrie Chairman Jim Ballantyne is saying Airdrie won't vote on any Rangers Newco issue because of conflicts of interest

Wonder what that's all about?

The innocent explanation is that Airdrie, having lost the playoff final, would be likely to move up to division 1 if Sevco are voted into division 3. Other explanations are possible.

[--------]

Traynor bends with the wind. It's not so long since he was having a go at Rangers with Tom English. This week someone has farted in the direction of Ibrox and he's wafting in that direction because he sees the effect a Rangerless league will have on his career. Where is Tom English by the way? Talking of journos, I was pleasently surprised to see Stuart Bathgate say unequivocally that Rangers must be put down to Div.3. He had to spoil it 'tho by giving a negative, as is his wont, spin to Hibs signing McPake. Typical Jambo barsteward. :greengrin


This one, Jim?

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/it-will-take-more-than-james-mcpake-to-revive-hibs-1-2387336

Just telling it as it is, IMO. We need at least another 4 or 5 players (I'd say 6), and we won't know what we have until the team starts playing at the beginning of the season.

Jury's still out as far as I'm concerned.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Ballantyne is a Rangers fan. He's been photographed on trips to their games.



he was also at the friendly with Linfield


Tue, May 1, 2012

TICKETS for the Linfield v Rangers game at Windsor Park, Belfast on Monday May 7 remain on sale at Ibrox and at various outlets across Northern Ireland.

The game is organised as a gesture by Linfield to financially help Rangers and is expected to attract a near capacity crowd to the Northern Ireland international stadium

[lapsedhibee]

The innocent explanation is that Airdrie, having lost the playoff final, would be likely to move up to division 1 if Sevco are voted into division 3. Other explanations are possible.

So play-off losers in div 3 should do same and abstain. Wonder where DodoFC are going to get the votes now for admission to the SFL?

[cabbageandribs1875]

wouldnt realy expect anything else from those that run scottish football. after the mess with rangers is finished i hope the same fan power continues to force changes in the sfa



the SFA still have to answer why craig whyte managed to pass the 'fit and proper person' p@sh when he first took over, or is it the spl that do that :rolleyes: cannae mind

[Jim44]

This one, Jim?

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/it-will-take-more-than-james-mcpake-to-revive-hibs-1-2387336

Just telling it as it is, IMO. We need at least another 4 or 5 players (I'd say 6), and we won't know what we have until the team starts playing at the beginning of the season.

Jury's still out as far as I'm concerned.

I agree, Doddie, but he always takes the opportunity to have a wee dig at us. Why not approach the article from the point of view that he is great signing and we could be going in the right direction? Why also push the 'humiliation' of the CF down our throats at the same time. Nah, not my idea of balanced reporting.

[degenerated]

Just read the Traynor article. **** me, it's the written equivalent of a Bomber Brown rallying cry. :rolleyes:

Just read it myself, Jesus wept. All that was missing was the last sentence stating "this was a party political broadcast for the SEVCO party"
I wonder how many pieces of silver his fat sweaty palms were crossed with by green to get the fat tit to write that :hilarious

[ScottB]

Loving this nonsense now, so the SFL, 3 leagues that have survived quite happily without any Rangers money, face going bust, all 30 clubs, without them, even though they've never had them...

Jesus wept as others have said haha

[Brando7]

alexthomson twittering that SFL President and Airdrie Chairman Jim Ballantyne is saying Airdrie won't vote on any Rangers Newco issue because of conflicts of interest

Wonder what that's all about?

A no vote is as good as a yes vote I bet

[StevieC]

Hang on, we're getting way beyond the point of my original comment here. All I was saying is Rangers will almost certainly be able to produce a business plan that shows them to be far better candidates for admission to the SFL than any other club that's likely to apply.

That's the point I'm making though, would it?

I suspect the running costs of Rangers are quite substantial. Without knowing how much they will be paying in wages, and how many supporters are going to turn up, any business plan is pure guess-work.
They may be able to produce a business plan on projected figures that gives a £5m profit, in reality it might end up a £5m loss.

At the moment ex-players and ex-managers are whipping the support into a frenzy and telling them not to buy season tickets and to oust Green. If, for example, Brown and Smith start up a new company and ask the fans to back them instead of Green there is every chance that Green goes bust and Sevco are unable to complete their fixtures. There is also the July 31st date that was banded about that Green could pull out of the proposed deal. This date may well have been based on the CVA but if there are any faults in the agreement that a lawyer could pick up on then it may still be a get-out date that Green could utilise.

This is purely conjecture of course, and may not happen, but the total uncertaintity of the Rangers situation I think needs to be taken into account, and on that basis I cant see how a business plan from Sevco could be viewed any better than a business plan from a well run, well organised, profitable football team.

[green glory]

Anyone got a link to the JT article? It's ok I've got my diamond jubilee sickbag, so I'm prepared.

[garlic]

The article contains direct quotes from Walter Smith. Im assuming this is the same Walter Smith who was cheerleading how greatit would be for Scotland if OldHun went south?

Vile.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/rangers/2009/10/16/walter-smith-scottish-football-will-die-if-old-firm-are-denied-move-elsewhere-86908-21751069/

[alexedwards]

A no vote is as good as a yes vote I bet

My understanding is abstention = a "no" vote. :cb

[JohnStephens91]

I tried reading the Jim Traynor article, I gave up from sheer anger.

[dangermouse]

A lot of discussion has gone around Sevco entering the SFL at either league 1 or 3. At present it looks like the entry to SFL 1 will be rejected but the blackmail document sent out stated that if SFL 1 was rejected then SPL 2 would be set up (and IMHO would be a disaster for Scottish Football).

Little has been discussed on this board about the likelihood of SPL 2 and I was wondering what the consensus of opinion was around this actually happening. I'd hate to think that this option was allowed to go forward allowing Sevco back door entry to SPL 1 in only 1 season.

[StevieC]

alexthomson twittering that SFL President and Airdrie Chairman Jim Ballantyne is saying Airdrie won't vote on any Rangers Newco issue because of conflicts of interest

So if the vote is to bend the rules to allow Rangers in, does an abstention effectively make it a NO vote?

:dunno:

[Spike Mandela]

I tried reading the Jim Traynor article, I gave up from sheer anger.

Social media has made people like Traynor an irrelevance and he's hating it. Previously he and his ilk could dictate the agenda but now the fans of clubs are forcing the agenda and influencing club chairmen themselves.

Traynor will keep banging on but empty vessels make the most noise.:cb

[Spike Mandela]

The innocent explanation is that Airdrie, having lost the playoff final, would be likely to move up to division 1 if Sevco are voted into division 3. Other explanations are possible.

Is it not because Ballantyne is Vice President of the SFL?

[ScottB]

Interestingly, it's in the SFL Rules that abstentions are not allowed at General Meetings.

So either one of the SFL Chairmen don't know their own rules (perish the thought) or more making it up as we go along...

[alexedwards]

So if the vote is to bend the rules to allow Rangers in, does an abstention effectively make it a NO vote?

:dunno:

Ballantyne has a dual interest - abstention is only option for him and it would be a "no" vote - although post above suggesting
abstentions not allowed - puts him in a pickle then.

[Matty_Jack04]

A lot of discussion has gone around Sevco entering the SFL at either league 1 or 3. At present it looks like the entry to SFL 1 will be rejected but the blackmail document sent out stated that if SFL 1 was rejected then SPL 2 would be set up (and IMHO would be a disaster for Scottish Football).

Little has been discussed on this board about the likelihood of SPL 2 and I was wondering what the consensus of opinion was around this actually happening. I'd hate to think that this option was allowed to go forward allowing Sevco back door entry to SPL 1 in only 1 season.

Creating an SPL2 means nothing if there's no fans going to the games
The men in charge here need to waken up to that fact fast or you'l be correct with it being a disaster. The paying punter wants change not more corruption and changes to suit agendas if they push that through the games dead.

[Caversham Green]

That's the point I'm making though, would it?

I suspect the running costs of Rangers are quite substantial. Without knowing how much they will be paying in wages, and how many supporters are going to turn up, any business plan is pure guess-work.
They may be able to produce a business plan on projected figures that gives a £5m profit, in reality it might end up a £5m loss.

At the moment ex-players and ex-managers are whipping the support into a frenzy and telling them not to buy season tickets and to oust Green. If, for example, Brown and Smith start up a new company and ask the fans to back them instead of Green there is every chance that Green goes bust and Sevco are unable to complete their fixtures. There is also the July 31st date that was banded about that Green could pull out of the proposed deal. This date may well have been based on the CVA but if there are any faults in the agreement that a lawyer could pick up on then it may still be a get-out date that Green could utilise.

This is purely conjecture of course, and may not happen, but the total uncertaintity of the Rangers situation I think needs to be taken into account, and on that basis I cant see how a business plan from Sevco could be viewed any better than a business plan from a well run, well organised, profitable football team.

It seems Rangers have sold about 1000 season tickets - that's appalling as far as they're concerned, but probably four or five times as many as any competing club could offer and they have a potential fan base of 40,000+ (the emphasis on potential) and their name alone means they are likely to attract a higher standard of player than other SFL3 clubs or candidates. It's not difficult to show that Rangers are a more attractive candidate for SFL membership than Gala Fairydean, so if Green can show that the costs can be covered then they are a shoe-in. As Green is only in it for the money he will be able to show the costs can be covered otherwise he'd just pull out.

Maybe that's exactly what will happen unless RFC are sneaked in to SFL1 and that's why they're all so keen to get them there. Time will tell.

[Green Reaper]

Creating an SPL2 means nothing if there's no fans going to the games
The men in charge here need to waken up to that factd fast or you'l be correct with it being a disaster. The paying punter wants change not more corruption and changes to suit agendas if they push that through the games dead.


The SPL2 proposal is a fiasco. If the transfer of SPL share from dodo to newco is rejected, as expected, then newco should not be able to enter the SPL,whether that be 1,2 or12. If the creation of an SPL2 means more SPL shares then they should go to current SFL teams and not to a team that,at present, only exists in the sycophantic delusions of journalistic hacks an hun sympathetic officials

[jgl07]

It seems Rangers have sold about 1000 season tickets - that's appalling as far as they're concerned, but probably four or five times as many as any competing club could offer and they have a potential fan base of 40,000+ (the emphasis on potential) and their name alone means they are likely to attract a higher standard of player than other SFL3 clubs or candidates. It's not difficult to show that Rangers are a more attractive candidate for SFL membership than Gala Fairydean, so if Green can show that the costs can be covered then they are a shoe-in. As Green is only in it for the money he will be able to show the costs can be covered otherwise he'd just pull out.


I wonder if the Green bid was based on the assumption that Naismith, Whittakar, and Davies could be sold with nominal transfer fees on to generate a couple of million pounds.

As a condition of an SFA license they may have to pick up the football related debts to the likes of Rapid and Hearts. If not FIFA will be on the case of the SFA.

Green may be able to argue that Rangers will generate revenue but that will not be demonstrable until the boycott by supporters and sponsors is ended. Judging by the ham fisted way that he has gone about even getting a bank account to deposit the season ticket money does not fill me with confidence. Also his failure to recruit any of the numerous Rangers' "legends" to his cause was a major blunder.

[Onion]

A lot of discussion has gone around Sevco entering the SFL at either league 1 or 3. At present it looks like the entry to SFL 1 will be rejected but the blackmail document sent out stated that if SFL 1 was rejected then SPL 2 would be set up (and IMHO would be a disaster for Scottish Football).

Little has been discussed on this board about the likelihood of SPL 2 and I was wondering what the consensus of opinion was around this actually happening. I'd hate to think that this option was allowed to go forward allowing Sevco back door entry to SPL 1 in only 1 season.

If the SFL reject the Div 1 con for obvious good reasons, then I'd be astonished in the SPL went ahead with an SPL 2. They will have pissed off the SPL fans, the SFL fans and the SFL Chairmen - not exactly a great backdrop for forcing through a change for the benefit of ONE bankrupt club. It would be suicide for the SFA/SPL to even try it.

So, IMHO, if the SFL reject the Newco proposal, then Newco will have to apply to join the SFL in the proper way - as it should have ben from day one. And all those who tried to circumvent the rules will have to carry the shame.

[cabbageandribs1875]

apparently green was on SSN thanking the players for being 'morally upstanding' WTF does he know about morals ffs :bitchy:

[Baba O'riley]

If the SFL reject the Div 1 con for obvious good reasons, then I'd be astonished in the SPL went ahead with an SPL 2. They will have pissed off the SPL fans, the SFL fans and the SFL Chairmen - not exactly a great backdrop for forcing through a change for the benefit of ONE bankrupt club. It would be suicide for the SFA/SPL to even try it.

So, IMHO, if the SFL reject the Newco proposal, then Newco will have to apply to join the SFL in the proper way - as it should have ben from day one. And all those who tried to circumvent the rules will have to carry the shame.

Pissing off the fans doesn't seem to concern the SPL/SPL/SFL. They seem to come up with more inventive ways of making us more angry and disgusted with the game. Agree it would be suicide, but part of me thinks they're that determined to do whatever they can to save "newco", that they'll steamroll ahead with SPL2 regardless. I just hope that all other SPL clubs resign in protest, and leave SPL1 and SPL2 with "newco" in it. Or with a bit of luck, "newco" and celtc. Then the SPL/Sky deal will get what they want; infirm games every week and they can leave the rest of Scottish football to get on with it; without the needless corruption.

Happy to be proved wrong with their insistance of an SPL2, but every time a light appears in the tunnel that this will work out for the good of Scottish football, the bulb seems to blow!

[StevieC]

It's not difficult to show that Rangers are a more attractive candidate for SFL membership than Gala Fairydean, so if Green can show that the costs can be covered then they are a shoe-in. As Green is only in it for the money he will be able to show the costs can be covered otherwise he'd just pull out.

But with no guaranteed income (all you can do is guess) then Green would need to be guaranteeing that he has funds to cover the shortfall. As you say though, he's in it for the money and would walk if he couldn't cover costs. If the week before the season kicks off the supporters decide that they are going to boycott the games till he leaves (and they are not shy about throwing boycotts around) then Sevco will fold, Green will walk, and there will once again be fixture chaos.

My point is, that all this uncertaintity and potential fixture chaos leads me to believe that other applications (if looked at objectively) could be a better proposition than the Rangers one .. at the moment.

[Lungo--Drom]

Maybe the clown could get a job somewhere like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea? The general populace would have no choice but to listen to him as he read out the scores of the King Il-Sung Glorious Leader 5-a-sides league.

Actually now I feel bad for even thinking of forcing the bullsh***ing pest on anyone, although the DPRK would be an ideal place for him to peddle his drivel.


Social media has made people like Traynor an irrelevance and he's hating it. Previously he and his ilk could dictate the agenda but now the fans of clubs are forcing the agenda and influencing club chairmen themselves.

Traynor will keep banging on but empty vessels make the most noise.:cb

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Social media has made people like Traynor an irrelevance and he's hating it. Previously he and his ilk could dictate the agenda but now the fans of clubs are forcing the agenda and influencing club chairmen themselves.

Traynor will keep banging on but empty vessels make the most noise.:cb

Very true. We are no longer limited to where we get our "News" from. Just like the dinosaurs these guys will become extinct.

[StevieC]

that they'll steamroll ahead with SPL2 regardless

For this to happen the current SPL teams would have to agree to share the SPL money with another 10 teams.

Given that the SKY deal is already in doubt and there is reduced income, with no Rangers in the SPL, I very much doubt that an SPL2 will even get beyond the fantasy stage in the pages of the Daily Record.

[Baba O'riley]

For this to happen the current SPL teams would have to agree to share the SPL money with another 10 teams.

Given that the SKY deal is already in doubt and there is reduced income, with no Rangers in the SPL, I very much doubt that an SPL2 will even get beyond the fantasy stage in the pages of the Daily Record.

good point; here's hoping you're right :agree:

[NAE NOOKIE]

We wouldnae be having it because any other club would have been punished properly by the authorities by now and kicked out and made tae start like Gretna in the east of Scotland league or equivalent. There's be nae bribery or blackmail threats tae let any other club back in at SFL 1, they wouldnae even get in at SFL 3.

Gretna resigned from the league of their own accord, they would have stayed in SFL3 if they had been able to guarantee playing their fixtures.

[Hibercelona]

Pissing off the fans doesn't seem to concern the SPL/SPL/SFL. They seem to come up with more inventive ways of making us more angry and disgusted with the game. Agree it would be suicide, but part of me thinks they're that determined to do whatever they can to save "newco", that they'll steamroll ahead with SPL2 regardless. I just hope that all other SPL clubs resign in protest, and leave SPL1 and SPL2 with "newco" in it. Or with a bit of luck, "newco" and celtc. Then the SPL/Sky deal will get what they want; infirm games every week and they can leave the rest of Scottish football to get on with it; without the needless corruption.

Happy to be proved wrong with their insistance of an SPL2, but every time a light appears in the tunnel that this will work out for the good of Scottish football, the bulb seems to blow!

Thats exactly what clubs should do if this farce is allowed to happen.

Every other club should just tell the SFA to shove it and form their own temporal league until the corruption is put to an end.

Seems like an extreme idea, but it will take extreme measures to stamp out this level of corruption.

Then they'll learn just how powerless they are in a 2 team league.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Allowing Newco straight back into the SFL without the need for registration could effectively kill the game off for every other club, barr the OF.

I already know a huge number of people who have stated that they won't be back now to watch their teams, regardless of the outcome now.

Rangers won't save the game, they will save it for 2 clubs, while the rest are left to rot because their fanbases have simply had enough of this s***e.

Football is nothing without its fans, no matter how much money is pumped into it.

The game is effectively dead.

Unbelievable !!!

So just because the game has entered a crisis, the final outcome of which has yet to materialise "huge numbers" of folk have decided to give up. I would guess that that is a gross exaggeration, I find it hard to accept that my fellow football supporters are so bloody spineless.

[Keith_M]

As it says on the tin. Could anyone who is familiar with these matters help explain.

As the CVA wasn't succesful, why are Duff and Phelps still in charge of Rangers and they are still in Admininstration, instead of being liquidated? The CVA decision was quite a while back, so I don't understand why they're still there, presumably charging fees, and the liquidators have not yet replaced them. Is there any genuine reason why this should be the case?


:confused:

[ancient hibee]

Statutory timescales.

[Keith_M]

Statutory timescales.

Ehm, thanks, I think...... :greengrin


Could you maybe expand on that a wee bit?

[leggeto]

because they are rangers

[Hibercelona]

Unbelievable !!!

So just because the game has entered a crisis, the final outcome of which has yet to materialise "huge numbers" of folk have decided to give up. I would guess that that is a gross exaggeration, I find it hard to accept that my fellow football supporters are so bloody spineless.

What crisis?

Rangers are in crisis, thats it.

All of this talk about other clubs going bust if the new Rangers don't get a free bus pass back up the league is complete and utter drivel.

The only spineless people are the people that actually believe this crap.

[erskine-hibby]

Speshul case...n'nat!

[ancient hibee]

Ehm, thanks, I think...... :greengrin


Could you maybe expand on that a wee bit?

Nope,actually I'm not sure of all the dates but it might be 14 or 21 days from date of liquidation until liquidators take over.Duff and Duffer have to square off the administration accounts and do something with dosh from Green whenever he pays it.There are also legal matters outstanding which Old Rangers are involved in and there will be the official transfer of assets.

[lapsedhibee]

If the transfer of SPL share from dodo to newco is rejected, as expected, then newco should not be able to enter the SPL,whether that be 1,2 or12.

DodoFC seems appropriate for referring to the old hun club, but I fear Newco is insufficient to embrace the largely mythical nature of the 'new club' - no bank account, no league to play in, mibbe no ground, mibbe not enough players to form a team, etc, etc. UnicornFC, SnarkFC might be more appropriate, though both of these are insufficiently vile to be entirely apposite. :dunno:

[NAE NOOKIE]

What crisis?

Rangers are in crisis, thats it.

All of this talk about other clubs going bust if the new Rangers don't get a free bus pass back up the league is complete and utter drivel.

The only spineless people are the people that actually believe this crap.

Of which I am not one. I have never bought into the we need the OF to survive rubbish. In fact Scottish football would be a better place without them .... but it has to be both. As it is I have no problem having them around because you cant beat a win against the OF.

The biggest disgrace to emerge from this situation is that it seems clear that far too many clubs in this country hitched their financial wagons to the OF a long time ago, without ever stopping to think what would happen if one, or both, of them went bust or got relegated.

Having said that. If you think its just Rangers who are in crisis then you havnt been reading the posts on this board properly. You yourself have already stated that you know "huge numbers" of people who wont be back no matter how the Rangers newco situation pans out. If that statement is true and its not a crisis then exactly what is?

I love football and I love my club and I'm buggered if I will just give up. Unlike all these hundreds, or is it thousands, of folk you know who have quit already.

Like I said ......... spineless!

[Bostonhibby]

alexthomson twittering that SFL President and Airdrie Chairman Jim Ballantyne is saying Airdrie won't vote on any Rangers Newco issue because of conflicts of interest

Wonder what that's all about?

:confused: Same Lodge , allegedly :wink:

[ancient hibee]

The people that run clubs have no idea how the average fan detests the OF.Directors mix in the boardroom and see the OF as a boost to the club coffers when they play.They realise rightly that the smaller clubs will never have the money for a sustained challenge and so are happy with a third place or a good cup run or even better are ecstatic if they can sell the OF a player or in our case half a team.They really do not understand how we hate this and consider us irrational because we play down the money side.And they're right because we are fans and will always be like that.So they better get used to it.Power to the people

[lapsedhibee]

The people that run clubs have no idea how the average fan detests the OF.Directors mix in the boardroom and see the OF as a boost to the club coffers when they play.They realise rightly that the smaller clubs will never have the money for a sustained challenge and so are happy with a third place or a good cup run or even better are ecstatic if they can sell the OF a player or in our case half a team.They really do not understand how we hate this and consider us irrational because we play down the money side.And they're right because we are fans and will always be like that.So they better get used to it.Power to the people

Right on, Wolfie!

[ScottB]

The people that run clubs have no idea how the average fan detests the OF.Directors mix in the boardroom and see the OF as a boost to the club coffers when they play.They realise rightly that the smaller clubs will never have the money for a sustained challenge and so are happy with a third place or a good cup run or even better are ecstatic if they can sell the OF a player or in our case half a team.They really do not understand how we hate this and consider us irrational because we play down the money side.And they're right because we are fans and will always be like that.So they better get used to it.Power to the people

On the other hand, the clubs have clearly listened to their supports when across the country we declared it was very much a case of us or them. From a purely business point of view, it makes sense to listen to us and they appear to have done so, at least to an extent.

[Hibercelona]

Of which I am not one. I have never bought into the we need the OF to survive rubbish. In fact Scottish football would be a better place without them .... but it has to be both. As it is I have no problem having them around because you cant beat a win against the OF.

The biggest disgrace to emerge from this situation is that it seems clear that far too many clubs in this country hitched their financial wagons to the OF a long time ago, without ever stopping to think what would happen if one, or both, of them went bust or got relegated.

Having said that. If you think its just Rangers who are in crisis then you havnt been reading the posts on this board properly. You yourself have already stated that you know "huge numbers" of people who wont be back no matter how the Rangers newco situation pans out. If that statement is true and its not a crisis then exactly what is?

I love football and I love my club and I'm buggered if I will just give up. Unlike all these hundreds, or is it thousands, of folk you know who have quit already.

Like I said ......... spineless!

Which is my point.

Fans of other clubs have had enough of this bending over for the OF at every given opportunity.

Right now, only Rangers are in crisis, but the entire game will fall into crisis if Rangers are allowed to just waltz straight back in again, because people have had enough of the blatant favouritism of the OF.

If the new Rangers get the special treatment and are allowed to just walk straight into the SFL next season, then other clubs are going to suffer, because fans will just stop going.

[Green Reaper]

DodoFC seems appropriate for referring to the old hun club, but I fear Newco is insufficient to embrace the largely mythical nature of the 'new club' - no bank account, no league to play in, mibbe no ground, mibbe not enough players to form a team, etc, etc. UnicornFC, SnarkFC might be more appropriate, though both of these are insufficiently vile to be entirely apposite. :dunno:


Maybe 'Bhuta FC', seems like an appropriate mythical beast

[JeMeSouviens]

Gretna resigned from the league of their own accord, they would have stayed in SFL3 if they had been able to guarantee playing their fixtures.

They were nominally in SFL3 before being liquidated (desperately still trying to find a new owner for the original club). There was never any suggestion that a successor club "newco" would be in SFL3.

[tamig]

This may be a consequence of the forced merger of Caledonian and Thistle. I was told by an Inverness resident that a lot of supporters (from both Caledonian and Thistle) defected to Ross County after the merger.
And there were a lot of Caley and Thistle fans who walked away from the game for good.

[Bostonhibby]

And there were a lot of Caley and Thistle fans who walked away from the game for good.

:agree: Actually met one when we played St Mirren 2 seasons ago in Paisley - he switched to St Mirren way back then and travels down for games when he can. He had to leave earlier than the rest for the journey hame - Must have been pretty pissed of to make that switch but fair play to him for not becoming a glory hunter..

[greenginger]

What I never see properly explained by the MSM is how a couple of visits a season from the ugly sisters is some sort of manna from heaven for all other clubs in the Scottish game.

No account is taken of the massive numbers of football fans lost to their local clubs support because they are boarding buses to where ever their choice of bigotry is being celebrated or as is more likely, they spend their Saturdays in a pub, dressed in O. F. tops bragging how great their "team" is without ever seeing any live football from one year to the next.

It is bad enough in Edinburgh with the limited number of glory hunters in our population but a visit to the likes of Dunfermline, Falkirk, Dundee or Kilmarnock to name a few, shows the extent of this cancer in our game and how it kills any meaningful competition to the uglies.

Any neutering of the O. F. can only be to the benefit of Scottish Football in the long term, but this view is considered a heresy by the MSM in our sick little Country.

[Hibercelona]

What I never see properly explained by the MSM is how a couple of visits a season from the ugly sisters is some sort of manna from heaven for all other clubs in the Scottish game.

No account is taken of the massive numbers of football fans lost to their local clubs support because they are boarding buses to where ever their choice of bigotry is being celebrated or as is more likely, they spend their Saturdays in a pub, dressed in O. F. tops bragging how great their "team" is without ever seeing any live football from one year to the next.

It is bad enough in Edinburgh with the limited number of glory hunters in our population but a visit to the likes of Dunfermline, Falkirk, Dundee or Kilmarnock to name a few, shows the extent of this cancer in our game and how it kills any meaningful competition to the uglies.

Any neutering of the O. F. can only be to the benefit of Scottish Football in the long term, but this view is considered a heresy by the MSM in our sick little Country.

:top marks

You're right about Dunfermline. :boo hoo:

[RyeSloan]

:agree: Actually met one when we played St Mirren 2 seasons ago in Paisley - he switched to St Mirren way back then and travels down for games when he can. He had to leave earlier than the rest for the journey hame - Must have been pretty pissed of to make that switch but fair play to him for not becoming a glory hunter..


Missing the logic here...so he was a Caley or a Thisle fan and when they merged instead of supporting the new entity he chose to support St Mirren? And this proves what exactly?

[greenginger]

:top marks

You're right about Dunfermline. :boo hoo:

I was over in Dunfermline on a Saturday during the close season last summer ( Wife wanted to see some different shops ) and I had a stroll along the High Street. It was wall to wall Hun tops with a few Hoops and English Premiership tops for variety but not one single Pars top to be seen and they had just been promoted.

What chance does local clubs have when all media outlets praise this perversion of football as a great asset in Scotland.

We need a new Media once the Huns have been put where they belong. :greengrin

[Hibercelona]

I was over in Dunfermline on a Saturday during the close season last summer ( Wife wanted to see some different shops ) and I had a stroll along the High Street. It was wall to wall Hun tops with a few Hoops and English Premiership tops for variety but not one single Pars top to be seen and they had just been promoted.

What chance does local clubs have when all media outlets praise this perversion of football as a great asset in Scotland.

We need a new Media once the Huns have been put where they belong. :greengrin

A newco media sounds like a smashing idea. :aok:

A media group that actually tells it as it is for a change.

One can dream eh.

[jgl07]

Missing the logic here...so he was a Caley or a Thisle fan and when they merged instead of supporting the new entity he chose to support St Mirren? And this proves what exactly?

It proves that football supporters are not like supermarket customers.

When Morrisons bought Safeway a large proportion of Safeway customers switched to Morrisons although a small proportion went to Asda or Tesco or Sainsbury. The same would not be true of merger between football teams.

If Hibs had merged with Hearts I would not have supported the new club regardless if it was called Hearts, Edinburgh United or whatever.

Inverness are probably the only example of football clubs merging. It took the club a long time to recover from that and Ross County were probably the main beneficiary.

[HFC_1875]

@alextomo: #c4news tomorrow story on interests, conflicts, Campbell Ogilvie, Donald Findlay and Jim Ballantyne - Airdrie, Cowdenbeath, Hearts - and RFC

[greenginger]

A newco media sounds like a smashing idea. :aok:

A media group that actually tells it as it is for a change.

One can dream eh.


I doubt even Martin Luther King would have been optimistic enough to dream that. :greengrin

[NAE NOOKIE]

Which is my point.

Fans of other clubs have had enough of this bending over for the OF at every given opportunity.

Right now, only Rangers are in crisis, but the entire game will fall into crisis if Rangers are allowed to just waltz straight back in again, because people have had enough of the blatant favouritism of the OF.

If the new Rangers get the special treatment and are allowed to just walk straight into the SFL next season, then other clubs are going to suffer, because fans will just stop going.


Not picking on you mate ... I know other folk have said this.

As far as I am aware they will have to apply for election as a brand new club. So it will not be just walking in. If they have the ground and fan base and a team even a 10th of what they have now then they fit the bill perfectly and will be miles ahead of any other candidates.

We all know that theres a hell of a lot more to it than just longevity. And correct me if I'm wrong, is it not an open secret that one of the clubs who voted agains Gala Fairydean getting elected to the SFL many years ago was Hibs. The case being that we didnt want any chance of the Fairydean attracting fans from the Borders who's natural gravitation was towards ER. Not much thought about purely football matters or deserving cases there methinks.

Nae newco in the SPL ......... Oh OK then.

Nae newco in SFL1 ...... Oh OK then.

Nae newco in SFL3 ...... ?

Its starting to look like mob justice to me ..... I prefer mine tempered with mercy and delivered by an auld guy in a funny wig in a fancy building ..... not by a load of people with an axe to grind a lamp post and a dirty rope.

[Part/Time Supporter]

If the SFL reject the Div 1 con for obvious good reasons, then I'd be astonished in the SPL went ahead with an SPL 2. They will have pissed off the SPL fans, the SFL fans and the SFL Chairmen - not exactly a great backdrop for forcing through a change for the benefit of ONE bankrupt club. It would be suicide for the SFA/SPL to even try it.

So, IMHO, if the SFL reject the Newco proposal, then Newco will have to apply to join the SFL in the proper way - as it should have ben from day one. And all those who tried to circumvent the rules will have to carry the shame.

:agree:

SPL2 is a bluff.

[HFC 0-7]

[/B]Not picking on you mate ... I know other folk have said this.

As far as I am aware they will have to apply for election as a brand new club. So it will not be just walking in. If they have the ground and fan base and a team even a 10th of what they have now then they fit the bill perfectly and will be miles ahead of any other candidates.

We all know that theres a hell of a lot more to it than just longevity. And correct me if I'm wrong, is it not an open secret that one of the clubs who voted agains Gala Fairydean getting elected to the SFL many years ago was Hibs. The case being that we didnt want any chance of the Fairydean attracting fans from the Borders who's natural gravitation was towards ER. Not much thought about purely football matters or deserving cases there methinks.

Nae newco in the SPL ......... Oh OK then.

Nae newco in SFL1 ...... Oh OK then.

Nae newco in SFL3 ...... ?

Its starting to look like mob justice to me ..... I prefer mine tempered with mercy and delivered by an auld guy in a funny wig in a fancy building ..... not by a load of people with an axe to grind a lamp post and a dirty rope.

The only preferential treatment they may get is if there is a rule in the SFL applications that they need x amount years of audited accounts. I am not sure if they have a rulle like that or not. If there is not a rule like that then Rangers applying for SFL3 and getting accepted is not preferential treatment because they are rangers, its because they tick more boxes than other clubs that may apply.

The grey area for me is are they or are they not the same club as the old co. If they are the same (same history etc) and they have to deal with the punishments for the investigations still to come, then I would say that allowing that team into the SFL with those potential punishments hanging over them could be risky. If they are still to be punished for dual contracts etc, then they would be running the risk of getting launched out of any league they are in and the SFL would be in atricky position if they accept them then the punishment is announced mid season.

FWIW, I think they wont be classed as the same club as before and therefore wont carry the punishments of old co, therefore they would probably be accepted into the SFL3 and rightly so, although I would still like for them to be wiped off the face of the planet!

[Eyrie]

If the SPL then attempts to introduce SPL where will it find the teams to play there? The bigger First Division clubs have already come out against Sevco 5088 getting direct entry to their league, so I can't see them deserting their principles and succumbing to blackmail.

[Saorsa]

If the SPL then attempts to introduce SPL where will it find the teams to play there? The bigger First Division clubs have already come out against Sevco 5088 getting direct entry to their league, so I can't see them deserting their principles and succumbing to blackmail.For a while we were conned in tae thinking some in the SPL had principles, what a sham that turned out tae be. :wink:

[jgl07]

If the SPL then attempts to introduce SPL where will it find the teams to play there? The bigger First Division clubs have already come out against Sevco 5088 getting direct entry to their league, so I can't see them deserting their principles and succumbing to blackmail.

Well SPL2 is not going to happen before 2013-14 and will presumably require an 11-1 majority from the SPL and a 22-8 majority in the SFL. It will also have to be sanctioned by the SFA. The fixtures are out (well sort of out) and the season kicks off in four weeks time.

If the two SPL Divisions have at least 30 clubs between them, I would have no objection to 'Rangers' coming into SPL2 provided that they come top of SFL3 in 2012-13.

[RyeSloan]

It proves that football supporters are not like supermarket customers.

When Morrisons bought Safeway a large proportion of Safeway customers switched to Morrisons although a small proportion went to Asda or Tesco or Sainsbury. The same would not be true of merger between football teams.

If Hibs had merged with Hearts I would not have supported the new club regardless if it was called Hearts, Edinburgh United or whatever.

Inverness are probably the only example of football clubs merging. It took the club a long time to recover from that and Ross County were probably the main beneficiary.

Surely supporting Ross county instead of the merged club would be like supporting Hearts if Hibs had merged with Meadowbank Thistle!!

iirc the merger was exactly that, a merger not a takeover. Hibs will never voluntarily merge with Hearts so the two scenarios can't really be compared although I'm sure there was plenty angst at the time!

If the dude didn't fancy supporting the merged entity then that's his choice although to be honest if he felt that strongly about his support for either Thistle or Caley then I'm unsure how he could just switch that allegiance to another club...using your example it's like supporting Kilmarnock because Hibs and Hearts have merged.

Anyway I digress and it's hardly relevant to the OP :greengrin

[Hibercelona]

Surely supporting Ross county instead of the merged club would be like supporting Hearts if Hibs had merged with Meadowbank Thistle!!

iirc the merger was exactly that, a merger not a takeover. Hibs will never voluntarily merge with Hearts so the two scenarios can't really be compared although I'm sure there was plenty angst at the time!

If the dude didn't fancy supporting the merged entity then that's his choice although to be honest if he felt that strongly about his support for either Thistle or Caley then I'm unsure how he could just switch that allegiance to another club...using your example it's like supporting Kilmarnock because Hibs and Hearts have merged.

Anyway I digress and it's hardly relevant to the OP :greengrin

I would support the pars if Hibs done the unthinkable. :wink:

[Sergey]

Well SPL2 is not going to happen before 2013-14 and will presumably require an 11-1 majority from the SPL and a 22-8 majority in the SFL. It will also have to be sanctioned by the SFA. The fixtures are out (well sort of out) and the season kicks off in four weeks time.

If the two SPL Divisions have at least 30 clubs between them, I would have no objection to 'Rangers' coming into SPL2 provided that they come top of SFL3 in 2012-13.

I think that that would be the consensus amongst the fans of all clubs in Scotland.

This has probably been stated umpteen hundred pages ago, but anything else to promote Newco sooner would simply be a fudge.

I still wouldn't wager money on how this will go, though.

[HibbySpurs]

Henry McLeish on SSN saying:

"I go along with the need for integrity in the game and it's absoloutely vital that Rangers are punished but we have to step back and think of the greater good of the game, far too few people do this. We can not continue for another six months to be discussing Rangers, find a home for them, move onto the important things"

On straight interprretation thats a cracking statement and one that the football authorities and chairmen of clubs would do well to listen to. This ***** has gone on long enough and the danger of it actually afectin thestrt of the new season is now all too real.

The only caveat that should be put in there (IMO) is that "home" should be SFL3 end of debate. Of course he is a politician and has covered his bases as the always do by not nailing his colours (hardly going to be blue :greengrin) to the mast...

[jgl07]

Surely supporting Ross County instead of the merged club would be like supporting Hearts if Hibs had merged with Meadowbank Thistle!!


It is more like supporting Meadowbank (or Dunfermline ir Raith) if Hearts merged with Hibs.

However the most likely scenario in the event of the Mercer takeover would have been a Newco Leith Hibernian applying for the SFL2 and picking up the bulk of the Hibs support.

[cabbageandribs1875]

see, savings already

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4405139/Cops-save-1m-in-Old-Firm-KO.html


COPS could save more than £1million next season because there are no Old Firm games are scheduled

Each of the four clashes between Rangers and Celtic costs taxpayers around £280,000 for extra officers


not that the buns bother about decent law-abiding tax payers right enough :rolleyes:

[Part/Time Supporter]

Proves the man is a tit.
It's not about punishing rangers.
rangers are soon to be liquidated, a new company wishes to have the old compny's place in the SPL.
It appears that wont happen so the new company have to apply within the structure of the foorball association.
It's that simple yet people want to make it difficult.

I now don't care either way, what ever division they are in I'm going to continue to support Hibs.
So what if it's a waste of money, it'll be mine I'm wasting.

In fairness to him, his perfectly reasonable report has been gathering dust for the last two years. Now some of the league and SFA executives are picking it up and using it as a means of getting newco in at the highest level possible. I think he can be forgiven for being a wee bit excited that something might actually come of his report after all.

[Bostonhibby]

Missing the logic here...so he was a Caley or a Thisle fan and when they merged instead of supporting the new entity he chose to support St Mirren? And this proves what exactly?

:confused: Never appreciated any proof of anything was required, The merger of the 2 highland clubs was mentioned as was the reaction of some of the fans, I was just sharing what I knew an actual fan chose to do rather than pack up altogether, in response to the merger which he wasn't happy about, he switched to St Mirren, odd but true.

[Eyrie]

For a while we were conned in tae thinking some in the SPL had principles, what a sham that turned out tae be. :wink:

Conceded, and I'm still raging about Petrie's duplicity in the matter. Your scepticism turned out to be well founded.

[Saorsa]

Conceded, and I'm still raging about Petrie's duplicity in the matter. Your scepticism turned out to be well founded.I wisnae specifically referring just tae him. As we've had naebody from the SPL criticise the document containing the bribery and threats I can only assume they're all in it up tae their necks.

[IWasThere2016]

Henry McLeish on SSN saying:

"I go along with the need for integrity in the game and it's absoloutely vital that Rangers are punished but we have to step back and think of the greater good of the game, far too few people do this. We can not continue for another six months to be discussing Rangers, find a home for them, move onto the important things"

On straight interprretation thats a cracking statement and one that the football authorities and chairmen of clubs would do well to listen to. This ***** has gone on long enough and the danger of it actually afectin thestrt of the new season is now all too real.

The only caveat that should be put in there (IMO) is that "home" should be SFL3 end of debate. Of course he is a politician and has covered his bases as the always do by not nailing his colours (hardly going to be blue :greengrin) to the mast...

Where was his integrity when he was cheating the taxpayer through his expenses claims??? Best ignored.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/scotland/2001/mcleish_resignation/1644816.stm

[Spike Mandela]

More utterances from Green. Noticed the second last paragraph where it's IF they go back to tribunal, as if it's his choice.:confused:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18683697

[CropleyWasGod]

More utterances from Green. Noticed the second last paragraph where it's IF they go back to tribunal, as if it's his choice.:confused:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18683697

He also fails to answer John Brown's question about the properties. I don't see why he has to wait seven days for that....

[jgl07]

In fairness to him, his perfectly reasonable report has been gathering dust for the last two years. Now some of the league and SFA executives are picking it up and using it as a means of getting newco in at the highest level possible. I think he can be forgiven for being a wee bit excited that something might actually come of his report after all.

For me the problem with the McLeish report was that it was associated with a return to a 10-team SPL. The vast majority of supporters did not want that and last year was a complete stand-off with Doncaster forever issuing press statements that agreement had been reached. Fortunately Dundee United and other stood firm and the propsal was blocked.

That really prevented any implementation of the bulk of the McLeish report which most agree on.

[StevieC]

He also fails to answer John Brown's question about the properties. I don't see why he has to wait seven days for that....

Because if they don't get entry to SPL or SFL1 he is going to walk away and won't need to answer any awkward questions.

:wink:

[rcarter1]

Should this saga end with Rangers/Sevco starting life in the third division, it appears that SPL clubs will be out of pocket from lost gate receipts and in time, reduced TV money. I am certain that most clubs should be able to navigate through this but extra revenue would be welcome.

I wonder if the SPL clubs could organise a joint event for the close season (2013) to raise a few bob. The clubs could participate in a 7-a-side tournament using a number of stadiums over a few days throughout Scotland during the preseason period. Fans of all clubs could come along to each of the stadiums without segregation and watch their teams in a light hearted family orientated kind of event. After costs were covered, all gate receipts could be split equally by all of the clubs. If it were promoted early enough, and took advantage of summer holidays etc, it might generate enough interest to provide all our Rangers starved clubs with a wee cash boost, while serving as a preseason training exercise for the players and a first hand look at new signings etc.

Or is this pie in the sky nonsense?

[grunt]

More utterances from Green. Noticed the second last paragraph where it's IF they go back to tribunal, as if it's his choice.:confused:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18683697


"There are some big decisions and none are more material than Rangers being excluded from the league and the financial incomes this club drives for the benefit of all Scottish clubs." We've obviously got this all wrong. Rangers "drives" income "for the benefit of all Scottish clubs". Whatever that means. Sounds good, though!

And he's continuing with his threat to seek compensation for something to do with players who weren't in his club not transferring to his club to allow Green to make a profit on their sale. He's nothing if not bold!

Honestly, if you made this up, no one would believe you.

[calmac12000]

As it says on the tin. Could anyone who is familiar with these matters help explain.

As the CVA wasn't succesful, why are Duff and Phelps still in charge of Rangers and they are still in Admininstration, instead of being liquidated? The CVA decision was quite a while back, so I don't understand why they're still there, presumably charging fees, and the liquidators have not yet replaced them. Is there any genuine reason why this should be the case?


:confused:

Couldn't liquidate them afore the Twelth now could they?

[calmac12000]

Proves the man is a tit.
It's not about punishing rangers.
rangers are soon to be liquidated, a new company wishes to have the old compny's place in the SPL.
It appears that wont happen so the new company have to apply within the structure of the foorball association.
It's that simple yet people want to make it difficult.

I now don't care either way, what ever division they are in I'm going to continue to support Hibs.
So what if it's a waste of money, it'll be mine I'm wasting.

It might be the drink affecting the old grey matter finally, but was the kernel of his plan not a return to a ten team SPL! WTF then are the blazers even associating their monstrosity with McLeish's ?
And why oh why MUST we accommodate Rangers as a sine quo non of Scottish football?
:flag:

[cabbageandribs1875]

looks like the hamilton accies will vote for the buns

http://www.acciesfc.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1885:chairmans-statement&catid=44:news&Itemid=140


We would urge all clubs to work together to reshape the leagues in a fair and equitable manner and to make decisions purely for the long term prosperity of our game and the enjoyment of the supporters of all clubs.
Harmony must be restored between all clubs for the good of our game and the continued existence of all Scotland’s Clubs.


not a single mention of any sporting integrity :(

[Saorsa]

not a single mention of any sporting integrity :(the rest of them shouldnae have bothered mentioning it either :wink: probably wouldnae ken what it wis if it slapped them in the coupon.

[degenerated]

Story in the ****** tomorrow that at least 3 spl chairman in secret talks to get sevco into spl.

Wonder which chairmen that will be, assuming traynor hasn't just made it up of course.

[Saorsa]

Story in the ****** tomorrow that at least 3 spl chairman in secret talks to get sevco into spl.

Wonder which chairmen that will be, assuming traynor hasn't just made it up of course.Lawwell, Johnston and ?........















































......Petrie?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Lawwell, Johnston and ?........















































......Petrie?


wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, i hope sally McCoist asks for the names to be revealed:cb

[grunt]

......Petrie?Hope not.

[ScottB]

A serious question here.

Why does anyone, certainly any of us, still read the Daily Record?

I mean come on, it's a total rag that still just mindlessly churns out whatever Rangers PR is required. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 'Rangers invited to join new Euro Super League' story any day now.


Come on people, every paper bought, every click on their website puts money in muppets like Traynor's pockets. Just don't!

[Saorsa]

A serious question here.

Why does anyone, certainly any of us, still read the Daily Record?

I mean come on, it's a total rag that still just mindlessly churns out whatever Rangers PR is required. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 'Rangers invited to join new Euro Super League' story any day now.


Come on people, every paper bought, every click on their website puts money in muppets like Traynor's pockets. Just don't!I neither buy it nor read it, I just comment on what is posted on here. It maybe *****, it maybe true, what this situation has proven as far as I'm concerned is that none of them can be trusted so I wouldnae put it past them tae be up tae something underhand, most of them would sell their granny for thirty bob. I wouldnae trust any of them as far as I could throw a grand pianae.

[greenginger]

Even if the required number of chairmen could be convinced to change their mind and vote Sevco into the SPL there is still EUFA who will insist on them being relegated.

The chairmen and even Doncaster must know this, so why would they even consider starting a mutiny by their own fans to save the Huns from the consequences of their own actions.

[matty_f]

Seems there are some SPL chairmen who are desperate to kill the game dead.

[gramskiwood]

It's starting to look like Petrie's up to his neck in all the machinations going on to preserve Rangers(RIP).
Why:confused:?

I think he's not alone. The SPL is just another cartell.

Viva la revolution!!!

[Iain G]

Seems there are some SPL chairmen who are desperate to kill the game dead.

Maybe they will all happily move their clubs to Division 3 so they can stay in the same league with their beloved Rangers...:confused:

[cabbageandribs1875]

CHARLES GREEN has hatched a last-ditch plan to keep crisis-torn Rangers in the SPL.

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4407410/Charles-Green-offers-an-escape-plan.html

1. Back SPL voting reform and slash the Old Firm’s influence

2. Agree a fairer split of revenue and cut payments to the Old Firm

3. Accept the transfer embargo given by the SFA appeals body

4. Pay all Gers’ football debts at home and abroad

5. Take a points deduction for at least one, possibly more seasons

6. Issue a public apologise for Gers’ past wrongdoing


i think that should be enough to kick the 'sporting integrity' p@sh right into touch


petrie will be twirling both ends of his tache into a wee knot in the middle


have to laugh at this, speaking about whittakers move to norwich - “I don’t accept that this is a career move — it’s for financial gain, no other reason.”

******* hypocrite

[easteroad]

CHARLES GREEN has hatched a last-ditch plan to keep crisis-torn Rangers in the SPL.

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4407410/Charles-Green-offers-an-escape-plan.html

1. Back SPL voting reform and slash the Old Firm’s influence

2. Agree a fairer split of revenue and cut payments to the Old Firm

3. Accept the transfer embargo given by the SFA appeals body

4. Pay all Gers’ football debts at home and abroad

5. Take a points deduction for at least one, possibly more seasons

6. Issue a public apologise for Gers’ past wrongdoing


i think that should be enough to kick the 'sporting integrity' p@sh right into touch


petrie will be twirling both ends of his tache into a wee knot in the middle


have to laugh at this, speaking about whittakers move to norwich - “I don’t accept that this is a career move — it’s for financial gain, no other reason.”

******* hypocrite



So for what reason does he want other chairmen to vote them anywhere :confused:

[1875godsgift]

CHARLES GREEN has hatched a last-ditch plan to keep crisis-torn Rangers in the SPL.

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4407410/Charles-Green-offers-an-escape-plan.html

1. Back SPL voting reform and slash the Old Firm’s influence

Rangers are dead, you have no influence.

2. Agree a fairer split of revenue and cut payments to the Old Firm

Too late mate, you aren't entitled to any money at all, in fact you owe us £130 million

3. Accept the transfer embargo given by the SFA appeals body

That's not up to you to accept now, hopefully the punishment will be increased. Personally, I think a 3 year transfer embargo would be fair.

4. Pay all Gers’ football debts at home and abroad

It's a bit late for that, you should have offered that in the first place.

5. Take a points deduction for at least one, possibly more seasons

Oh really? How about 60 points deduction every season for the amount of seasons you have cheated Scottish football? That should handicap you till the year 2032, seems fair to me.

6. Issue a public apologise for Gers’ past wrongdoing

Far to late for that, should have been the first thing on the agenda. Instead, all we have had is " It's not our fault, everybody hates us, you'll all die without our sectarian business model. "

**** off to the gutter were you belong, if you can rise through the ranks and at the same time shake yourself free from the bigotry that shames our game, then I would accept your re-admittance into Scottish football.


i think that should be enough to kick the 'sporting integrity' p@sh right into touch


petrie will be twirling both ends of his tache into a wee knot in the middle


have to laugh at this, speaking about whittakers move to norwich - “I don’t accept that this is a career move — it’s for financial gain, no other reason.”

******* hypocrite





Exactly, so it's ok for Green to buy and sell rangers for financial gain, but it's immoral for Whittaker to seek financial security elsewhere?
The man is a complete tw*t and extremely well suited to the extinct club that he's trying to get a mortgage on.

[Peevemor]

Story in the ****** tomorrow that at least 3 spl chairman in secret talks to get sevco into spl.

Wonder which chairmen that will be, assuming traynor hasn't just made it up of course.

The thing is, once Newhun are rejected, the other chairmen can gang up on Celtic and vote through whatever changes they want 11-1 (assumling there are 12 teams). They don't need to make deals with anyone.

[John_the_angus_hibby]

This is depressing. Last week I was so positive about the games direction. If this results in anything that does not smell to me as justice, I am totally done. I was getting ****ing excited, good initial signings, thinking what the post OF Atmos would be like at DU etc.

I may not be able to state what justice is, D3 or death etc...but I will know in my heart whether it's been served or not. I will feel its right or not. And now I am beginning to have grave doubts.

I have supported the board, even though I think Petrie has been more of a lucky Chairman that a great one. But this. If he is tainted by this then I will not be back to a league that stinks. To a league that only exists provides oxygen so two of the most vile institutions can play each other 4 times pa.

People, if somehow they work out a way for the Huns then it will prove once and for our game is rigged. There is no other word. Rigged. Who wants to watch a rigged game?

If you vote or are supporting this Petrie then damn you, you have helped kill this game and sporting club.

[IWasThere2016]

looks like the hamilton accies will vote for the buns

http://www.acciesfc.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1885:chairmans-statement&catid=44:news&Itemid=140


We would urge all clubs to work together to reshape the leagues in a fair and equitable manner and to make decisions purely for the long term prosperity of our game and the enjoyment of the supporters of all clubs.
Harmony must be restored between all clubs for the good of our game and the continued existence of all Scotland’s Clubs.


not a single mention of any sporting integrity :(

Integrity and the Accies :faf:

Many rumours of cash payments in broon envelopes :wink:

[Phil D. Rolls]

This is depressing. Last week I was so positive about the games direction. If this results in anything that does not smell to me as justice, I am totally done. I was getting ****ing excited, good initial signings, thinking what the post OF Atmos would be like at DU etc.

I may not be able to state what justice is, D3 or death etc...but I will know in my heart whether it's been served or not. I will feel its right or not. And now I am beginning to have grave doubts.

I have supported the board, even though I think Petrie has been more of a lucky Chairman that a great one. But this. If he is tainted by this then I will not be back to a league that stinks. To a league that only exists provides oxygen so two of the most vile institutions can play each other 4 times pa.

People, if somehow they work out a way for the Huns then it will prove once and for our game is rigged. There is no other word. Rigged. Who wants to watch a rigged game?

If you vote or are supporting this Petrie then damn you, you have helped kill this game and sporting club.

Talk about a bullet in the skull just to make sure they ared dead. This is getting more Tarantinoesque by the hour.

[MCameron]

Should fans of SPL clubs send a clear message to SFL that if they accept sevco into SFL1 we will boycott all away SFL cup games?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Story in the ****** tomorrow that at least 3 spl chairman in secret talks to get sevco into spl.

Wonder which chairmen that will be, assuming traynor hasn't just made it up of course.

FFS.

That ship has sailed. Any chairman stating support for that would need his bumps felt by the worlds leading bump feeling experts. Give it up lads, everybody has moved on.

[Steve20]

Then what? Blackmail SFL 3 clubs that no one will go to away cup games against them if they get into Division 3.

Rangers aren't getting into the SPL. That's what everyone wanted and that's what will happen. Whatever happens in the leagues below is upto the people in charge of they clubs, not the SPL clubs.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Should fans of SPL clubs send a clear message to SFL that if they accept sevco into SFL1 we will boycott all away SFL cup games?

One of these days surely folks bluff will be called.
If there are threats to boycott everything it just loses impact no?
Besides threating all SFL clubs seems harsh on those voting against. If you think Green is unreasonable what about your proposal?

[Saorsa]

Then what? Blackmail SFL 3 clubs that no one will go to away cup games against them if they get into Division 3.

Rangers aren't getting into the SPL. That's what everyone wanted and that's what will happen. Whatever happens in the leagues below is upto the people in charge of they clubs, not the SPL clubs.That's not what everyone wants so just stick tae speaking for yersel! I want them out of the SPL and treated the same as any other new club would be. The SFL's rules are that new teams start in division 3 any bending of those rules is nae different tae letting them in the SPL and as far as I'm concerned, particularly if that bending of the rules comes from pressure from elswhere.

[marinello59]

Should fans of SPL clubs send a clear message to SFL that if they accept sevco into SFL1 we will boycott all away SFL cup games?

No.
This is just getting stupid now.

[Beefster]

Should fans of SPL clubs send a clear message to SFL that if they accept sevco into SFL1 we will boycott all away SFL cup games?

If Sevco5088 get into SFL1, I think the SFL clubs should be the last organisations that are held responsible after the SPL, the SPL clubs, the SFA and the SFL.

[marinello59]

If Sevco5088 get into SFL1, I think the SFL clubs should be the last organisations that are held responsible after the SPL, the SPL clubs, the SFA and the SFL.

Nonsense. We should boycott them all, plus B and Q at the weekend, the entire City of Dundee and my Mother in laws house.

[Newry Hibs]

James Traynor and East Striling chairman on R5 @ 7:15 this morning. JT could hardly get the words out about how for 'fairness' TRFC should be in SFL3, but then talked about £16m lost and compromise and how there weren't actuallt any rules to make them go to SFL3.

The East Stirling chairmen talked about how they had suffered financially but had worked hard to get on a even keel and actually made a profit and were owned by the fans. Sounded very much like a 'No' vote to me.

[Hibernia&Alba]

James Traynor and East Striling chairman on R5 @ 7:15 this morning. JT could hardly get the words out about how for 'fairness' TRFC should be in SFL3, but then talked about £16m lost and compromise and how there weren't actuallt any rules to make them go to SFL3.

The East Stirling chairmen talked about how they had suffered financially but had worked hard to get on a even keel and actually made a profit and were owned by the fans. Sounded very much like a 'No' vote to me.

Fatty nude nut Traynor has no shame at all. A consistent apologist for Rangers, he'll even go begging on their behalf to a tiny club like East Stirling. The subservient, fawning Scottish press behaviour towards the Old Firm is another part of the scandal. They would have known for years what was going on at Ibroke but didn't say a word. Succulent lamb indeed.

[bighairyfaeleith]

If Sevco5088 get into SFL1, I think the SFL clubs should be the last organisations that are held responsible after the SPL, the SPL clubs, the SFA and the SFL.

Agreed

If the SFL are forced to let them into div 1 in then we need to make it quite clear to our SPL clubs that we expect them to ban sevco from the SPL for three years so even if they win div 1 they can't come straight back up. Thats a suitable punishment for our clubs for trying to swindle us and get the huns in the back door.

The SFL clubs are the most innocent parties in all this.

[Jack]

It's starting to look like Petrie's up to his neck in all the machinations going on to preserve Rangers(RIP).
Why:confused:?

I think he's not alone. The SPL is just another cartell.

Viva la revolution!!!

How?

There's nothing definite either way; no-one from that committee has said anything about anything; their name is on nothing. My name isn't on it either, nor is yours.

No-one is even sure where the crappiest presentation document came from, other than Doncasters mitts appear to have been on it – although we have seen in the past Celtc fans haven't been beyond doctoring things to apportion blame as suits them from time to time.

[Phil D. Rolls]

How?

There's nothing definite either way; no-one from that committee has said anything about anything; their name is on nothing. My name isn't on it either, nor is yours.

No-one is even sure where the crappiest presentation document came from, other than Doncasters mitts appear to have been on it – although we have seen in the past Celtc fans haven't been beyond doctoring things to apportion blame as suits them from time to time.

Tam and Stewart said on Saturday that it was some college student's homework that ended up in the wrong hands.

[Moulin Yarns]

Has anybody else heard that Rangers (Sevco) have started rebuilding their squad for the future?

Apparently they've signed Darth Vader's son Taxi

[Kojock]

Nonsense. We should boycott them all, plus B and Q at the weekend, the entire City of Dundee and my Mother in laws house.

Is there a B&Q in Dundee ??




No but theres two D's and two E's :greengrin


I'll get ma coat. :offski:

[Viva_Palmeiras]

t.co/GH8rSLPy

Di Stefano wades in with letter to Platini.
I did wonder where the prolonged ineptitude of the SFA/SPL was going to be used as an argument for keeping rangers in the SPL.
Apols if posted already. source: Alex Thomson twitter comment from fan.

[IWasThere2016]

Nonsense. We should boycott them all, plus B and Q at the weekend, the entire City of Dundee and my Mother in laws house.

Can I please add Barclays and F1 snorefest to that list?

[marinello59]

Can I please add Barclays and F1 snorefest to that list?

Can't see why not. :greengrin

[Jones28]

Nonsense. We should boycott them all, plus B and Q at the weekend, the entire City of Dundee and my Mother in laws house.

I thought that was the done thing anyway :greengrin


But seriously...boycotting SFL clubs? For what gains? One season without Rangers/Sevco/Newco/*****co is good enough without ruining OUR enjoyment of the game by going to these old grounds and having a good day out. If Rangers are in the SFL at any level next season it's the most we could have expected.

[lucky]

If sky pull the plug on Scottish football along with commercial partners then we as consumers can do likewise to them. I also note that Celtic and their fans are very not making much noise. Two cheeks of the one arse.

[rcarter1]

Agreed

If the SFL are forced to let them into div 1 in then we need to make it quite clear to our SPL clubs that we expect them to ban sevco from the SPL for three years so even if they win div 1 they can't come straight back up. Thats a suitable punishment for our clubs for trying to swindle us and get the huns in the back door.

The SFL clubs are the most innocent parties in all this. I agree with that, perhaps they will ban clubs from the SPL from being relegated into it!!

At the risk of being banned, hung drawn and quartered, perhaps the best place for Rangers is the SPL after all. The SFL clearly want nothing of it. As much as I have looked forward to them taking their medicine in the third I would be happy for them to be readmitted into the SPL if

a) They agree to a long term (i.e. 25 years or so) financial commitment to pay back not only their football and business debts, but their tax debt - including the big tax case should this ever be disclosed. For a club with their turnover, its a disgrace that they have tried to weedle out of this. If they face that music than a lot of the injustice of the situation will be addressed.

b) The SPL thrash out a fair deal regards TV etc (not sure what that would be)

c) Accept a penalty of 25 points for next season. Should the big tax case go against them they should either forfeit all of their previous titles, scottish cup and league wins - and pay the respective clubs back pay in terms of lost win money, OR accept a 10 point penalty for future seasons for each season they operated illegal EBTs.

d) They agree to sit down with other SPL clubs, and other relevant parties to step by step address sectarian issues surrounding football and its supporters - with a view to putting into place genuine penalties for offences, and a serious commitment removing this element from their (and any other) club.

My coat is ready...

[ScottB]

So the Daily Ranger publishes more complete nonsense and folk are ready to go on a witch hunt / hang themselves...

If the story turns up in a newspaper that isn't barely worthy for use as toilet paper, written by a journalist capable of more than 'why yes Rangers PR person, I'll just copy and paste that story in for you now' then maybe I'll take an interest...


Wouldn't even trust the date on the front cover!

[CropleyWasGod]

I agree with that, perhaps they will ban clubs from the SPL from being relegated into it!!

At the risk of being banned, hung drawn and quartered, perhaps the best place for Rangers is the SPL after all. The SFL clearly want nothing of it. As much as I have looked forward to them taking their medicine in the third I would be happy for them to be readmitted into the SPL if

a) They agree to a long term (i.e. 25 years or so) financial commitment to pay back not only their football and business debts, but their tax debt - including the big tax case should this ever be disclosed. For a club with their turnover, its a disgrace that they have tried to weedle out of this. If they face that music than a lot of the injustice of the situation will be addressed.

b) The SPL thrash out a fair deal regards TV etc (not sure what that would be)

c) Accept a penalty of 25 points for next season. Should the big tax case go against them they should either forfeit all of their previous titles, scottish cup and league wins - and pay the respective clubs back pay in terms of lost win money, OR accept a 10 point penalty for future seasons for each season they operated illegal EBTs.

d) They agree to sit down with other SPL clubs, and other relevant parties to step by step address sectarian issues surrounding football and its supporters - with a view to putting into place genuine penalties for offences, and a serious commitment removing this element from their (and any other) club.

My coat is ready...

Whilst the law is the way it is, that one is a non-starter.

[matty_f]

This has been ridiculous for too long but they're pushing it now. Reagan and Doncaster are due to address the SFL clubs, one can only hope it is to announce their resignations.

Hopelessly inept throughout this saga, they have shown themselves to be massively out of touch with the people who matter most in football - the fans.

[Spike Mandela]

I agree with that, perhaps they will ban clubs from the SPL from being relegated into it!!

At the risk of being banned, hung drawn and quartered, perhaps the best place for Rangers is the SPL after all. The SFL clearly want nothing of it. As much as I have looked forward to them taking their medicine in the third I would be happy for them to be readmitted into the SPL if

a) They agree to a long term (i.e. 25 years or so) financial commitment to pay back not only their football and business debts, but their tax debt - including the big tax case should this ever be disclosed. For a club with their turnover, its a disgrace that they have tried to weedle out of this. If they face that music than a lot of the injustice of the situation will be addressed.

b) The SPL thrash out a fair deal regards TV etc (not sure what that would be)

c) Accept a penalty of 25 points for next season. Should the big tax case go against them they should either forfeit all of their previous titles, scottish cup and league wins - and pay the respective clubs back pay in terms of lost win money, OR accept a 10 point penalty for future seasons for each season they operated illegal EBTs.

d) They agree to sit down with other SPL clubs, and other relevant parties to step by step address sectarian issues surrounding football and its supporters - with a view to putting into place genuine penalties for offences, and a serious commitment removing this element from their (and any other) club.

My coat is ready...

Not going to diss you, i see your point but don't succumb to propaganda.

The constant drip drip of certain media outlets of impending doom and financial armageddon is meant to hammer you into resignation and Acceptance of their viewpoint. They will kick and scream with their agenda but this is truly Scottish football's Arab spring. The people have spoken. Rangers should be grateful to get Div 3. They and their apologist's know this.

Don't give up, sometimes you just have to do what is right.

[rcarter1]

Whilst the law is the way it is, that one is a non-starter.

Out of interest as Im not aware of the law on this, why is this not possible?

Even if the law did allow them to forgo the debts, as part of a negotiated re entry to the SPL, they could agree to make extra payments to HMRC (or help with getting the money from the individuals responsible) as a matter of principle. For me this is all contingent on the outcome of the big tax case. The fact that the HMRC have remained quiet on this does raise questions as to whether the appeal was successful. If Rangers were found to be operating legally wrt EBTs, then that side of things drops out the equation. The remaining debts to HMRC and everyone else is easily payable over a long term period and they should be forced to accept that. I know the laws the law, but the game clearly has an opportunity to ensure that one of its members takes its financial operations seriously.

[blackpoolhibs]

This has been ridiculous for too long but they're pushing it now. Reagan and Doncaster are due to address the SFL clubs, one can only hope it is to announce their resignations.

Hopelessly inept throughout this saga, they have shown themselves to be massively out of touch with the people who matter most in football - the fans.

This whole episode has for me, shown up just how corrupt those running the game at the top of Scottish football are.

The damage they have inflicted on the game is right up there on a par, with the crimes Rangers have committed over the years in my opinion.

Rangers have eventually been caught, but the SFA and the SPL leaders, have tried their hardest to brush it all under the carpet, even when all the evidence is out there to see.

No matter what the outcome of this is, i cant believe many of these people in charge can stay in their positions?

When this is over, no fan be it Rangers or Raith Rover will trust the leaders of our game anymore, and thats a direct result of their actions.

[CropleyWasGod]

Out of interest as Im not aware of the law on this, why is this not possible?

Even if the law did allow them to forgo the debts, as part of a negotiated re entry to the SPL, they could agree to make extra payments to HMRC (or help with getting the money from the individuals responsible) as a matter of principle. For me this is all contingent on the outcome of the big tax case. The fact that the HMRC have remained quiet on this does raise questions as to whether the appeal was successful. If Rangers were found to be operating legally wrt EBTs, then that side of things drops out the equation. The remaining debts to HMRC and everyone else is easily payable over a long term period and they should be forced to accept that. I know the laws the law, but the game clearly has an opportunity to ensure that one of its members takes its financial operations seriously.

What I am trying to say, in my cack-handed way, is this.... if the football authorities decreed that RFC should pay off all debts (or, do you mean just football and tax debts?) as a prerequisite to getting back into the SPL (even over many years), RFC would just go to Court and say "we are in administration/liquidation. We can walk away from our debts." The Court would say "yes, you're right. The Law trumps anything any football authority might decide."

Then UEFA might get involved... as we've seen already.

As for HMRC being quiet, that is their way. They aren't allowed to talk about any case publicly.

And, you say that RFC can easily repay their non-BTC debts. That's probably about £30-40m. :agree:

[rcarter1]

Not going to diss you, - Cheers! :green grin

The constant drip drip of certain media outlets of impending doom and financial armageddon is meant to hammer you into resignation and Acceptance of their viewpoint. They will kick and scream with their agenda but this is truly Scottish football's Arab spring. The people have spoken. Rangers should be grateful to get Div 3. They and their apologist's know this.

Don't give up, sometimes you just have to do what is right.

I agree that Rangers, Green, the Media, the SPL and Rangers apologists have been scaremongering their heads off. I am for one not in the slightest bit concerned about lost revenue from gates, or even renegotiated TV deals. Scottish football has always, and will probably always operate in much reduced financial conditions as compared with England and other countries. The Clubs if seriously pushed, could ask THEIR players just as Rangers did, to accept reductions in contracts to see them through. Players wages is the only real reason why clubs are in the position they are in. Ive had to accept for a long time that Messi, Silva, etc are not coming to Hibs anytime soon. All I want to see is a team of half decent footballers that actually give a damn on the pitch. You don't need millions to get that.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

So the Daily Ranger publishes more complete nonsense and folk are ready to go on a witch hunt / hang themselves...

If the story turns up in a newspaper that isn't barely worthy for use as toilet paper, written by a journalist capable of more than 'why yes Rangers PR person, I'll just copy and paste that story in for you now' then maybe I'll take an interest...


Wouldn't even trust the date on the front cover!

This is the "paper" that described Hugh Dallas' car printed where he lived photos of him beside car withlicense plate. Then his windows got panned (by his neighbours tho' but still).
The reported? Didn't have the b*lls to put his name to the article.
Also had a hairy baby competition!

[Caversham Green]

How?

There's nothing definite either way; no-one from that committee has said anything about anything; their name is on nothing. My name isn't on it either, nor is yours.

No-one is even sure where the crappiest presentation document came from, other than Doncasters mitts appear to have been on it – although we have seen in the past Celtc fans haven't been beyond doctoring things to apportion blame as suits them from time to time.

To be fair here, Doncaster's name was only on the properties of a Word document containing the voting structure of the SPL, which is to be expected. There was no direct link to the dodgy prospectus.

[rcarter1]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;3283135]What I am trying to say, in my cack-handed way, is this.... if the football authorities decreed that RFC should pay off all debts (or, do you mean just football and tax debts?) as a prerequisite to getting back into the SPL (even over many years), RFC would just go to Court and say "we are in administration/liquidation. We can walk away from our debts." The Court would say "yes, you're right. The Law trumps anything any football authority might decide."

I take the point, In this instance however the SPL could then return to their no vote regards SPL, and leave them to the whims of the SFL - in the hope that the SFL1 nonsense doesn't go through. I suppose what I would want to see is the SPL making a precondition of their yes vote a contracted commitment for Rangers to pay up.

Then UEFA might get involved... as we've seen already.

As for HMRC being quiet, that is their way. They aren't allowed to talk about any case publicly.

Thats fair enough, Im just concerned that they are likely to know the answer by now. If so why the silence? Its giving me the herby jeebies, as if HMRC lose the case, they will have shot themselves not so much in the foot, but in the face. This was supposed to be their big first precedent case to take on football.

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;3283135]What I am trying to say, in my cack-handed way, is this.... if the football authorities decreed that RFC should pay off all debts (or, do you mean just football and tax debts?) as a prerequisite to getting back into the SPL (even over many years), RFC would just go to Court and say "we are in administration/liquidation. We can walk away from our debts." The Court would say "yes, you're right. The Law trumps anything any football authority might decide."

I take the point, In this instance however the SPL could then return to their no vote regards SPL, and leave them to the whims of the SFL - in the hope that the SFL1 nonsense doesn't go through. I suppose what I would want to see is the SPL making a precondition of their yes vote a contracted commitment for Rangers to pay up.

Then UEFA might get involved... as we've seen already.

As for HMRC being quiet, that is their way. They aren't allowed to talk about any case publicly.

Thats fair enough, Im just concerned that they are likely to know the answer by now. If so why the silence? Its giving me the herby jeebies, as if HMRC lose the case, they will have shot themselves not so much in the foot, but in the face. This was supposed to be their big first precedent case to take on football.

I'm not sure that they do know the answer. As I understand it, every instance of alleged EBT-mismanagement had to be examined individually. That takes time.

Also, it is possible that RFC's tax advisers have stopped all work on the case, as they won't have been paid. That stops the whole process for a while. In that eventuality, HMRC will confirm the assessments.

[flash]

http://www.stranraerfc.org/

Now that's a statement.

[Caversham Green]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;3283135]What I am trying to say, in my cack-handed way, is this.... if the football authorities decreed that RFC should pay off all debts (or, do you mean just football and tax debts?) as a prerequisite to getting back into the SPL (even over many years), RFC would just go to Court and say "we are in administration/liquidation. We can walk away from our debts." The Court would say "yes, you're right. The Law trumps anything any football authority might decide."

I take the point, In this instance however the SPL could then return to their no vote regards SPL, and leave them to the whims of the SFL - in the hope that the SFL1 nonsense doesn't go through. I suppose what I would want to see is the SPL making a precondition of their yes vote a contracted commitment for Rangers to pay up.

Then UEFA might get involved... as we've seen already.

As for HMRC being quiet, that is their way. They aren't allowed to talk about any case publicly.

Thats fair enough, Im just concerned that they are likely to know the answer by now. If so why the silence? Its giving me the herby jeebies, as if HMRC lose the case, they will have shot themselves not so much in the foot, but in the face. This was supposed to be their big first precedent case to take on football.

I wonder if HMRC/Tribunal have just dropped the case. There's little point in spending time and money completing the verdict when the offending company is about to liquidate - the cost of completion could well exceed any addtional revenue from a finite liquidation pot, and they'd just be taking it from other creditors in any case. As I understand it the FTT was about examining individual detail so there's no precedent to be had either.

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.stranraerfc.org/

Now that's a statement.

Isn't half.

Sometimes, I think some of the media think that "diddy teams" are run by diddy people. They forget that those teams are run by people who often have businesses themselves, but who often do these things in their spare time, or who have "no idea how the world works". I find that patronising.

Stranraer's statement is measured, considered and couched intelligently in a way that no-one can misunderstand. It also has an underlying message that says "don't effing patronise us."

Brilliant.

[Caversham Green]

[QUOTE=rcarter1;3283142]

I'm not sure that they do know the answer. As I understand it, every instance of alleged EBT-mismanagement had to be examined individually. That takes time.

Also, it is possible that RFC's tax advisers have stopped all work on the case, as they won't have been paid. That stops the whole process for a while. In that eventuality, HMRC will confirm the assessments.

That's almost a certainty is it not? The outcome of the case is virtually irrelevant now and they'd just be incurring professional fees for no benefit.

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=rcarter1;3283142]

I wonder if HMRC/Tribunal have just dropped the case. There's little point in spending time and money completing the verdict when the offending company is about to liquidate - the cost of completion could well exceed any addtional revenue from a finite liquidation pot, and they'd just be taking it from other creditors in any case. As I understand it the FTT was about examining individual detail so there's no precedent to be had either.

You could be right.

On the precedent thing, I don't think that FTT verdicts have any precedent value in law. I think this was more about "sending a message".

That said, HMRC may keep the pot boiling for a little longer. IF the SPL/SFL both bomb Sevco out... and CG exercises his right to renege on the deal (has he paid yet? :confused:)...that changes things completely again.

[Jim44]

http://www.stranraerfc.org/

Now that's a statement.

Articulate, honest and transparent. ............ Everything that document wasn't. I think Stranraer have just become my second favourite Scottish team.

[greenginger]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;3283147]

That's almost a certainty is it not? The outcome of the case is virtually irrelevant now and they'd just be incurring professional fees for no benefit.


I thought the HMRC were getting BDO in to pursue previous directors etc. A confirmed sum for the big tax case would be essential I would have thought.

[Lincoln Green]

Saw this over on Pie and Bovril posted by DAFC (http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php/topic/179839-is-the-scottish-media-corrupt/)



For the last twenty years or so the Red Top papers and the majority of TV pundits have all had one agenda - living off the Old Firm.
If anything gets in their way they will attack it so that they can continue their easy life whereby they feed the hundreds of thousands of Old Firm 'fans' non stories about who their clubs might sign or what they are up to in training whilst massive stories like Livingston, Gretna and Hearts get no press or bad press.
The stance of Keevins, Traynor, Jackson and the gang shows just how bad it has become lately. They are all panicking at loss of income and having to do some real journalism for a change.

I wonder how many of them knew about the impending problems at Ibrox but were too busy kissing Murray's arse so that they could be spoonfed stories every week?

I have had similar feelings to this for a long time now. Does anyone one on here think that how the media treats Hibs, etc and all the other teams who went public on their opposition to Newco FC Govan will change as a result?

I'm probably being paranoid but even the BBC intially seemed to me to put a very positive spin on the survival of Newco FC Govan and have been very guilty of building up the sense of fear that the game in Scotland cannot survive without the huns. Was it me or did Jackie Bird not even show solidarity by wearing blue night after night at the height of the Duff and Phelps nonsense.

Any thoughts??

[Jack]

What I am trying to say, in my cack-handed way, is this.... if the football authorities decreed that RFC should pay off all debts (or, do you mean just football and tax debts?) as a prerequisite to getting back into the SPL (even over many years), RFC would just go to Court and say "we are in administration/liquidation. We can walk away from our debts." The Court would say "yes, you're right. The Law trumps anything any football authority might decide."

Then UEFA might get involved... as we've seen already.

As for HMRC being quiet, that is their way. They aren't allowed to talk about any case publicly.

And, you say that RFC can easily repay their non-BTC debts. That's probably about £30-40m. :agree:

At the moment the newco aren't members of anything; they are not even a football club!

If, as a condition of entry, they are only allowed to join if they accept these sanctions surely they couldn’t then go to court and have them overturned?

[Caversham Green]

[QUOTE=Caversham Green;3283154]


I thought the HMRC were getting BDO in to pursue previous directors etc. A confirmed sum for the big tax case would be essential I would have thought.

That's from the prosecution side though. The point is that RFC no longer have anything to defend as they are about to close down and they shouldn't be incurring fees when the only outcome will be a reduction of the amount available to creditors. If the directors are to be pursued it is for them to fund their defence, not the creditors of Rangers FC.

[CropleyWasGod]

At the moment the newco aren't members of anything; they are not even a football club!

If, as a condition of entry, they are only allowed to join if they accept these sanctions surely they couldn’t then go to court and have them overturned?

They would, though....:greengrin

[grunt]

Chris McLaughlin ‏@BBCchrismclaug On steps of Hampden, Raith Rovers chairman Turnbull Hutton says the game is corrupt. Says he's been lied to, threatened and bullied. #SFL (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23SFL)