Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Leithenhibby]

The PR machine is moving up the gears. Here's an article from "Walter" which makes my blood boil.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/gutless-greedy-gullible.17182292

Interesting headline, too. It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the article, so it is not clear who said it, annd who is referenced.
And another point, this is the guy who was manager during all the EBT cheating. Why does he still have a voice in this?


It stinks, and is rotten to the core ......

End-Game is not too far away me thinks.... I can see this getting so messy :wink: If not already....

[Keith_M]

The PR machine is moving up the gears. Here's an article from "Walter" which makes my blood boil.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/gutless-greedy-gullible.17182292

Interesting headline, too. It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the article, so it is not clear who said it, annd who is referenced.
And another point, this is the guy who was manager during all the EBT cheating. Why does he still have a voice in this?

"Gutless. Greedy. Gullible."

As that's the headline, but it's never once mentioned in the article, I can only assume that it's the official view of the Herald.

No chance of the article mentioning what the other ten actually want, just continual bleeting that they want to wreck Rantic's chances of success in Europe. No mention of Rantic's attempts to leave the SPL, or any of the reasons Rangers are in the mess they're in (presumably it's still everybody else's fault)

All this from the man in charge of Rangers during the years they were breaking the rules.

[matty_f]

Walter Smih can GTF as well. Rangers and Celtc have had cosy wee secret meetings behind the backs of the other SPL clubs for years, ensuring the status quo and their dominance in the process. They've not given the wider aspects of Scottish football a second's thought
The OF would happily have shafted us all if the Premiership had entertained the notion of them joining but now we're supposed to be sympathetic because Scotland needs them? GTF you stupid auld welt.
I hope Rangers die soon and I hope the rest of Scottish football takes a moment to pish on its rotten, cheating corpse.

[James70]

To try and simplify there would now appear to be two possible outcomes to the whole situation.

1) Rangers or whatever they may be called in future have to start life in the 3rd division, the smaller SPL clubs are then seen as turkeys voting for Christmas because of the loss of Sky tv money and no visiting Rangers fans twice a season.

OR

2) The other SPL chairmen who make up the management committee decide to sell their souls for 30 pieces of silver, Rangers stay in the SPL debt free and in a stronger financial position than they have been in for several years and the rest of the SPL clubs outwith the OF lose fans in their thousands who have completely lost respect for their own clubs stance in the matter.

It would be fantastic if the other SPL clubs were to tender a mass resignation from the SPL leaving the OF to play each other every week because no other leagues want them. Scottish football must be the laughing stock of Europe and if Rangers are allowed to remain in the SPL after being liquidated we will never be taken seriously again.

[BroxburnHibee]

I still think that there will be some form of sanction - there has to be.

As has been mentioned before, SPL2 seems to be the likely solution.

No way will NewCo Gers end up in the 3rd division IMO.

[DaveF]

I still think that there will be some form of sanction - there has to be.

I would not be so certain. They have already taken the 10 point penalty and IIRC Motherwell got by with only that sanction being applied. OK, they were not contemplating liquidation, but I think there is every chance a Newco Huns will find plenty of open doors should they need them.

[Caversham Green]

I still think that there will be some form of sanction - there has to be.

As has been mentioned before, SPL2 seems to be the likely solution.

No way will NewCo Gers end up in the 3rd division IMO.


I would not be so certain. They have already taken the 10 point penalty and IIRC Motherwell got by with only that sanction being applied. OK, they were not contemplating liquidation, but I think there is every chance a Newco Huns will find plenty of open doors should they need them.

It's not actually a sanction though. There are two issues here - RFC going bust and RFC breaking the rules. If RFC go bust - i.e. are liquidated it is the concept of a new and different club being allowed to take their place in the top league because they have affiliated themselves to the old huns. Morally they have less right to that place than Stirling Albion or Brechin Cty for example.

The other issue - breaking the rules goes away if Newhun is formed but IMO should still be considered because Newhun have affiliated themselves to the Oldhun cheats. If RFC stay afloat then they still have the cheating accusations to answer. There's also the matter of an officer of RFC dishonestly gaining access to confidential information in St Mirren's books. I think that is bigger than it first appears and I hope the Buddies take it further.

[Onion]

If Brown has one of six votes, who holds the other five? His attitude sums up everything that is wrong with scottish football.


:agree: Those clubs that Do vote in favour of the newHuns getting straight back into the SPL MUST be named and shamed !! There is simply no place for self interest over sporting integrity in ANY SPORT.

If that's the way it goes, then a lot of clubs will STILL go down the tubes, as honest supporters of non-OF clubs would simply refuse to go back. WHY give your money to these self-serving guardians of our game (like this ST J muppet) when all they are interested in keeping themselves in jobs ?? Scottish Football would finally bring itself into disrepute throughout the footballing world - we would be a laughing stock - and would die a slow death over the next few months & years.

[BroxburnHibee]

I would not be so certain. They have already taken the 10 point penalty and IIRC Motherwell got by with only that sanction being applied. OK, they were not contemplating liquidation, but I think there is every chance a Newco Huns will find plenty of open doors should they need them.

I meant if they are liquidated which I have always felt was the most likely outcome.

[Onion]

It's not actually a sanction though. There are two issues here - RFC going bust and RFC breaking the rules. If RFC go bust - i.e. are liquidated it is the concept of a new and different club being allowed to take their place in the top league because they have affiliated themselves to the old huns. Morally they have less right to that place than Stirling Albion or Brechin Cty for example.

The other issue - breaking the rules goes away if Newhun is formed but IMO should still be considered because Newhun have affiliated themselves to the Oldhun cheats. If RFC stay afloat then they still have the cheating accusations to answer. There's also the matter of an officer of RFC dishonestly gaining access to confidential information in St Mirren's books. I think that is bigger than it first appears and I hope the Buddies take it further.


:agree:

[Onion]

:agree: Sadly true....

So what if we go back (in some natural way) to the time of late 70's / early 80's when the OF were not very good winning everything and 15,000 crowds were not unusual for the OF.....are we going to just make up the rules so they win/ keep big crowds / have happy SKY :rolleyes:

YES we should run clubs in a business like way...BUT they are sporting clubs firstly and without sporting integrity they are nothing.

All this cobblers about money = good football / better standard. Scotland will never compete with England on our door step for best players...so why pay such huge wages to get mediocre players...

A season of Watching our double winning U19's shows you can have great football / entertainment / competition.....and very little money involved....there are now players on the dole due to shrinking squads...we need to find a level of sustainable wage, for which there will always be players willing to play for as it will still be better than blokes grafting on building sites (as example) are earning...of course the best will move on...but they do anyway now...

Simple put, 100% correct. So why are people like this blustering St J idiot allowed anywhere near a Scottish Football club. The guy is a complete idiot.

[KazHibby]

If Brown has one of six votes, who holds the other five? His attitude sums up everything that is wrong with scottish football.

The current SPL Board is made up of Ralph Topping (SPL Chairman), Neil Doncaster (SPL Chief Executive), Eric Riley (Celtic FC), Stephen Thompson (Dundee United FC), Derek Weir (Motherwell FC) and Steven Brown (St Johnstone FC).

If it comes down to a vote of these folk, I would foresee a welcome party at SPL HQ!!!

For a lighter view of the situation re the currant buns plight, taken from the excellent RTC thread,

'Is Channel 4′s report of document shredding relevant to Rangers’ tax cases? I do not know. That would be for Rangers FC and its former directors to comment.

There must be some kind of remedial teaching award available to anyone who is able to explain any of this to a Scottish sports journalist.'

[matty_f]

If nowt gets done, or a token gesture is made then the SPL will carry about as much integrity as wrestling.

[CentreLine]

STEVE Brown, the St Johnstone chairman, has warned that if Rangers go into liquidation and are not permitted to re-enter the SPL as a new company, several top-flight clubs would go out of business.
One of the six members of the SPL board whose job it would be to consider an application by the “new” Rangers, Brown stressed that he had yet to make up his mind as to what would be the most appropriate course of action.
He said that he hoped never to be faced with the decision but, if he was, he would have to weigh sporting integrity against the cost to clubs such as his own. Refusing to grant the Glasgow club an SPL licence would, in his view, lead to a financial “disaster”.
Asked if he meant that some clubs would go to the wall, Brown replied: “I think they would. I think a lot of them are kidding themselves on. One or two of them are on the brink as it is. If they’re on the brink as it is, and they’re getting support financially from Rangers and Sky, there can only be one thing [that would happen].”
In an exclusive interview with Scotland on Sunday, Brown also called for a more conciliatory approach by the SPL’s non-Old Firm clubs to the current row over voting rights. Some have said that they would consider resigning from the top flight in protest.
He says that only the best-run clubs would survive in a league without the Old Firm. “Would you get by without the Old Firm? We [at St Johnstone] would get by. We’ve demonstrated that because we’ve been in the First Division for seven years, but you certainly wouldn’t have the same calibre of player at your club. Could the other teams get by without the Old Firm? I think three or four of them would go out of business. Careful what you wish for.”
Brown says that, if a newco Rangers were to be excluded from the SPL, the economic impact would outweigh any other benefits. “You probably would get more supporters because your team would be likely to be more competitive, but in financial terms, it would be a disaster, an absolute disaster.
“In financial terms, I can’t see how [the other clubs] could possibly fill the gap. The revenue they [Rangers] bring with them equates to probably three or four games against teams from the bottom six. It’s a huge void, both in gate revenue and TV money because it is my understanding that the Sky contract would fall through.”


Bit in bold for me......we want a league with well run (living within means) clubs...if other go bust then so be it...time for the SPL to be run on a different basis where clubs like ours who have invested in infastructure and youth programms get the benefit of that and are not 'cheated' by others. Brown has done a great job with St J...but they need to get more of their own fans in their ground and not rely on filling it a few times a season with bigger teams fans.

I also think if he is on panel that will stand in judgement then he should not really be doing interviews like this .....

Does the man not realise that it is this very attitude that is chasing thousands of fans away every week from MacDairmid Park and down the A9/A8 to Glasgow. If we show ourselves to be at the stage where the OF do not have to play to the same rules as everyone else, I have said it before, I am off and I do not think I will be alone

[NAE NOOKIE]

I still think that there will be some form of sanction - there has to be.

As has been mentioned before, SPL2 seems to be the likely solution.

No way will NewCo Gers end up in the 3rd division IMO.

Thats the solution for me too Broxburn. I would settle for an SPL 1 and 2 with newco huns starting in 2 with a points deduction.

Its a solution for everybody. To allow them back into the SPL after liquidation would be a death knell for Scottish football with thousands of fans giving up.

As for the Walter Smith interview. The man was a good manager for Scotland and I suppose his beloved rangers too. But when it comes to his opinion in that article he cant be very intelligent if he cant see the irony of what he is saying. Basically the rest of the SPL are gutless because they didnt do anything before, when it would have been impossible for them to do so.

The SPL clubs have simply seen an opportunity to stand up to a bully and taken it, surely even a biased individual like Watty can see and understand that. Like a lot of old firm apologists he just cant see that the supporters of every other club in Scotland dont give a flying one about whats best for the OF.

As he says the OF will continue to dominate Scottish football ..... But what we want is for them to do it fairly from a level playing field.

[Bostonhibby]

Have been right on the money for a while now, also throw in the odd related interesting tale.

Planet Football - Rangers

Rangers directors were assured by solicitor Gary Withey, then (but no longer) of Collyer Bristow, that his client Craig Whyte had the funds not just to repay BOS £18M but also to provide working capital of £5m.

Collyer Bristow had been provided with "written assurances from a UK financial institution".

It is now suggested that the institution may have been none other than Merchant House Group (MHG), where Whyte was a major shareholder with influence on the board. Furthermore, Whyte was said by MHG to have more than £30m available to spend. If this is true,then clearly MHG as well as Withey were misled. BOS was paid from the sale of Rangers future ticket revenue.

After Whyte had been disqualified as a director in 2000 he came to the attention of the Companies Investigation Branch (CIB) when he started making moves on financially troubled shoe firm FII Group, where his old pal Aidan Earley was a player. By September 2002 Monaco company Lebron Holdings Services had acquired a more than 5% stake. Lebron and Whyte were previously linked at failed Re-Tex Plastic Technology.

The CIB was contacted by the FII pension fund trustees, who were concerned about Whyte and Earley's intentions. The CIB monitored Whyte's telephone calls from Monaco, with the help of the security services. Any deal fell through, so the CIB took no further action.

FII collapsed in 2004, largely due to its pension fund deficit.

[Kaiser1962]

The current SPL Board is made up of Ralph Topping (SPL Chairman), Neil Doncaster (SPL Chief Executive), Eric Riley (Celtic FC), Stephen Thompson (Dundee United FC), Derek Weir (Motherwell FC) and Steven Brown (St Johnstone FC).

If it comes down to a vote of these folk, I would foresee a welcome party at SPL HQ!!!

For a lighter view of the situation re the currant buns plight, taken from the excellent RTC thread,

'Is Channel 4′s report of document shredding relevant to Rangers’ tax cases? I do not know. That would be for Rangers FC and its former directors to comment.

There must be some kind of remedial teaching award available to anyone who is able to explain any of this to a Scottish sports journalist.'


As RTC pointed out it is quite alarming, though not surprising, that C4 seems to have uncovered more in a fortnight that the entire Scottish media managed in over a year.

There is a danger that all sorts of precedents are being set and the next club, which may well be our neighbours, can rightly point to the impotence of the authorities in the Rangers case, and use it to safeguard their own position within the SPL.

Rangers are totally different from Motherwell in that Motherwell owed the vast proportion of their debt to John Boyle, who subsequently waived it to ensure the survival of Motherwell. Rangers have taken part in a calculated tax avoidance plan and *******ised it to the extent that it now very much looks like a tax evasion scheme and, in any other circumstance, I would be expecting HMRC to prosecute, or at least attempt to.

[Kaiser1962]

What price sporting integrity?
People like Brown need to realise that failing to dothe right thing will drive fans away in their droves. Why would I or anyone else shell out £400 on a season ticket knowing full well we've been cheated for years and now the league isn't even pretending it's a level playing field? The SPL can GTF if they bend over to Rangers.


Sporting integrity went years ago Matty. There are no rewards in the modern game for honesty. The opposite in fact.

[cabbageandribs1875]

It's not actually a sanction though. There are two issues here - RFC going bust and RFC breaking the rules. If RFC go bust - i.e. are liquidated it is the concept of a new and different club being allowed to take their place in the top league because they have affiliated themselves to the old huns. Morally they have less right to that place than Stirling Albion or Brechin Cty for example.

The other issue - breaking the rules goes away if Newhun is formed but IMO should still be considered because Newhun have affiliated themselves to the Oldhun cheats. If RFC stay afloat then they still have the cheating accusations to answer. There's also the matter of an officer of RFC dishonestly gaining access to confidential information in St Mirren's books. I think that is bigger than it first appears and I hope the Buddies take it further.


the st.mirren director that allowed that to happen has been asked to leave the club

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17575289

St Mirren have told takeover hopeful Ken McGeoch to resign from the board by end of business on Monday or they will call an extraordinary meeting.

The club had claimed that McGeoch had shown confidential information to Rangers' company secretary.

[Spike Mandela]

I think it's fair to say now that Liquidation is out in the open that the Scottish Media's campaign to ease Rangers re-entry to the SPL is officially in full swing.:rolleyes:

[Caversham Green]

the st.mirren director that allowed that to happen has been asked to leave the club

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17575289

St Mirren have told takeover hopeful Ken McGeoch to resign from the board by end of business on Monday or they will call an extraordinary meeting.

The club had claimed that McGeoch had shown confidential information to Rangers' company secretary.

I know, but I think St Mirren should also be making a complaint to the SPL - Withey should have been nowhere near those negotiations as he had a clear conflict of interest.

If you've ventured over to the dark side recently you'll know that Hearts were charged with failing to act in the utmost good faith towards the league and its members - this is a far more blatant example of that than the yams paying their players late. In fact it looks to me like there was a Plan B that involved the remnants of RFC buying out St Mirren.

[greenginger]

The fans will drift away faster than a "blink of an eye" if Mr Brown get's is way :rolleyes: It's just sad to see the game we love get in this mess, with people like him bending over with such ease.. IT'S WRONG..

Sunday Herald warns them to take the "Brace Position" :wink:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/rangers-time-to-rip-it-up-and-start-again.17193773

If Rangers start fielding 12 players in matches will Brown rush to their defence and excuse them by insisting the SPL needs a strong Rangers and playing an extra player helps to achieve this.

Rangers punishment should be the same as any other Club and the question asked should be " How would we have dealt with a Partick Thistle or an East Fife in similar circumstances ? "

[jgl07]

Thats the solution for me too Broxburn. I would settle for an SPL 1 and 2 with newco huns starting in 2 with a points deduction.

Its a solution for everybody. To allow them back into the SPL after liquidation would be a death knell for Scottish football with thousands of fans giving up.



I can't see how SPL2 can be set up before the 2013-14 season.

Mind you the technical and legal issues in setting up a NewCo Rangers playing at Ibrox could mean that they would not be in a position to compete before that season.

[PatHead]

Think it is likely we will have a 14 team SPL next year with Rangers, Ross County and Dunfermline all being in it along with one other. Pay off will be SPL2 following season.

[Bostonhibby]

the st.mirren director that allowed that to happen has been asked to leave the club

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17575289

St Mirren have told takeover hopeful Ken McGeoch to resign from the board by end of business on Monday or they will call an extraordinary meeting.

The club had claimed that McGeoch had shown confidential information to Rangers' company secretary.

:agree: and see my post above - same names keep cropping up, surely there's more than one firm of solicitors in the country? all a bit masonic sounding to me. The "Knights" doing there bit however they can...........

[ancient hibee]

Latest conspiracy theory(mine).

The bidding Yanks are a company specialising in company reconstruction;
Duff and Phelps,the liquidators, are an American company specialising in company reconstruction;
Craig Whyte is a company director who has done nothing but company reconstruction and was advised by Duff and Phelps on his takeover.
Anyone see a common thread by any chance.

If Rangers are liquidated I think they should stay in the SPL but under a penalty of starting at minus 40 points for each of the next 5 seasons.

[Hibs Class]

Latest conspiracy theory(mine).

The bidding Yanks are a company specialising in company reconstruction;
Duff and Phelps,the liquidators, are an American company specialising in company reconstruction;
Craig Whyte is a company director who has done nothing but company reconstruction and was advised by Duff and Phelps on his takeover.
Anyone see a common thread by any chance.

If Rangers are liquidated I think they should stay in the SPL but under a penalty of starting at minus 40 points for each of the next 5 seasons.


All that would do is hand five titles to the other OF cheek. Minus 140 on the other hand, I'd maybe accept that.

[calmac12000]

This whole saga is a textbook case where a supine(being charitable) media constructs a reality for consumption by an uneducated(even more charitable here) public i.e. Huns. This created fantasy or orthodoxy changes and develops over time, eventually containing so many logical inconsistencies that it should in a normal society be exposed for what it is. However, being Scotland with its morally bankrupt media, each development is treated as if its the result of alien intervention. The end result for the more discerning amongst us, is to disbelieve every Scottish media outlet and rely on this forum as a "true" source for information on this story.

[CropleyWasGod]

This whole saga is a textbook case where a supine(being charitable) media constructs a reality for consumption by an uneducated(even more charitable here) public i.e. Huns. This created fantasy or orthodoxy changes and develops over time, eventually containing so many logical inconsistencies that it should in a normal society be exposed for what it is. However, being Scotland with its morally bankrupt media, each development is treated as if its the result of alien intervention. The end result for the more discerning amongst us, is to disbelieve every Scottish media outlet and rely on this forum as a "true" source for information on this story.

Oh, you are so gullible :greengrin

[dangermouse]

:agree: The implication is that it was any of the other 10 clubs in the huns' place - including his own St Johnstone - they would suffer the consequences, but because it's one of the old firm special concessions should be made.

Probably the most depressing comment I've read so far on the matter (Edit: I mean Brown's comment, not yours Jim).

Too true. I'm surprised no journalist has picked up on this but then who in the weegie press would. A case of everyone is equal but some are more equal than others :grr:

If this had been SJ going to the wall there would be a lot less pages on this thread and a good few trees would still be standing as we wouldn't have had the reams of guff we've had to put up with for a month and a half.

[grunt]

http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-long-good-friday/#more-2373

[PatHead]

If this happened I assume Rangers could not see out the season and our win in Inverness wasn't worth a sook. I also assume it would mean 5 teams in the bottom half of the league and all their (Rangers) results wiped out.

Oh God please I promise to be good if they shut down! (Prayer type smiley if there was one)

[CropleyWasGod]

If this happened I assume Rangers could not see out the season and our win in Inverness wasn't worth a sook. I also assume it would mean 5 teams in the bottom half of the league and all their (Rangers) results wiped out.

Oh God please I promise to be good if they shut down! (Prayer type smiley if there was one)

I think P MacG is raising (to continue with the Easter theme) false hopes in his article. The admins will have budgeted on making it to the end of the season. That was the whole point of the player negotiations.

[lapsedhibee]

(Prayer type smiley if there was one)

Think this might be one. :pray:

[PatHead]

I think P MacG is raising (to continue with the Easter theme) false hopes in his article. The admins will have budgeted on making it to the end of the season. That was the whole point of the player negotiations.

Jobbies

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2012/04/02/rangers-in-crisis-ibrox-fans-warned-to-be-cautious-over-club-9-sports-bid-for-administration-hit-club-86908-23810233/

Caution.... like they used with Craigy :agree:

[PatHead]

I think this might be one. :pray:

Thanks. Hope you use it wisely.

[CropleyWasGod]

Jobbies

Patience. It just extends the period of pain :greengrin

[jgl07]

If this happened I assume Rangers could not see out the season and our win in Inverness wasn't worth a sook. I also assume it would mean 5 teams in the bottom half of the league and all their (Rangers) results wiped out.


Not if they complete the pre-split fixtures. The Results involving Rangers could stand.

The the bottom-six would presumably play out the season. The top-six (now five) would play one less match.

Rangers will be liquidated but not before the end of the season.

[Peevemor]

I think P MacG is raising (to continue with the Easter theme) false hopes in his article. The admins will have budgeted on making it to the end of the season. That was the whole point of the player negotiations.

But if they lose the tax case, when might they be forced into liquidation? If they're still losing money despite the pay cuts, surely HMRC won't allow this to continue.

[CropleyWasGod]

But if they lose the tax case, when might they be forced into liquidation? If they're still losing money despite the pay cuts, surely HMRC won't allow this to continue.

If they lose the tax case, then you might see HMRC petitioning for their winding-up. However, that wouldn't happen overnight. HMRC would issue a demand for the cash. Then a reminder. Then a letter threatening legal action. Then legal action.

However, as things stand, they can continue with the cash they have.

[PatHead]

If they lose the tax case, then you might see HMRC petitioning for their winding-up. However, that wouldn't happen overnight. HMRC would issue a demand for the cash. Then a reminder. Then a letter threatening legal action. Then legal action.

However, as things stand, they can continue with the cash they have.

Would have thought administrators would be struggling to justify they could trade out administration and liquidation would be only option? Could the court not force their hand. By the way can you confirm if a firm is liquidated do they cease trading straight away or can they see out the season?

[Hibs Class]

I think P MacG is raising (to continue with the Easter theme) false hopes in his article. The admins will have budgeted on making it to the end of the season. That was the whole point of the player negotiations.

Did they budget on making it to the end of the season in a scenario which was based on a CVA being the longer term outcome? If that changes and liquidation becomes the obvious outcome then all their planning is up in the air.

[CropleyWasGod]

Would have thought administrators would be struggling to justify they could trade out administration and liquidation would be only option? Could the court not force their hand. By the way can you confirm if a firm is liquidated do they cease trading straight away or can they see out the season?

If a company is deemed by its directors to be insolvent, ie its debts exceed its assets or it can't meet its liabilities as they fall due, then it has to cease trading and take the appropriate steps to enter an insolvency process....in this case, that would be liquidation. Any debts incurred by the directors after that point can be held to be the directors' own personal liability.

So, if the BTC verdict comes in this week, and it's bad for RFC, then the admins have a decision to make. If the bids on the table are insufficient to cover the liability, then the only appropriate action is liquidation.


However, as things stand, the only thing the admins can do is continue on the course they set out in February and keep trading.

[CropleyWasGod]

Did they budget on making it to the end of the season in a scenario which was based on a CVA being the longer term outcome? If that changes and liquidation becomes the obvious outcome then all their planning is up in the air.

Yes, I think they did. That was the appropriate approach to adopt at the time and, IMO, is still the only approach they can take until the bidding process has been exhausted and/or the Tribunal decision is in.

[Seveno]

I think P MacG is raising (to continue with the Easter theme) false hopes in his article. The admins will have budgeted on making it to the end of the season. That was the whole point of the player negotiations.

I worry about you, Crops. This misplaced trust in Duff & Duffer is endearing but somewhat concerning for a man of your stature.

I think you need a holiday.

[CropleyWasGod]

I worry about you, Crops. This misplaced trust in Duff & Duffer is endearing but somewhat concerning for a man of your stature.

I think you need a holiday.

... now there's a thought.... :greengrin

[jgl07]

Yes, I think they did. That was the appropriate approach to adopt at the time and, IMO, is still the only approach they can take until the bidding process has been exhausted and/or the Tribunal decision is in.

Also by continuing till the end of the season, Rangers will be eligible for payouts from the SPL which I presume would be lost if they liquidated prior to completing their fixtures.

[Seveno]

As Rangers continue to unravel, the same situation could follow at their ex-Parent company, MIH. Once those carpets are lifted, we could yet see David Murray being disbarred as a Company Director.

Or is that just wishful thinking on my part ?

[ScottB]

As Rangers continue to unravel, the same situation could follow at their ex-Parent company, MIH. Once those carpets are lifted, we could yet see David Murray being disbarred as a Company Director.

Or is that just wishful thinking on my part ?

Presumably MIH were using the same EBT scheme? Considering various ex Gers directors seem to be suggesting that MIH were entirely responsible for deciding Rangers tax policies...

[Andy74]

Have I misses something on Europe?

Motherwell v Rangers the other day there was still the premise that motherweel needed to beat them to try and get this champions League place.

Did I imagine a few weeks ago that the club had to be out of admin by 31 March to have any chance of Europe?

There seems to have been no word after that deadline having been passed that Rangers are now officially out of Europe next year?

[PatHead]

Have I misses something on Europe?

Motherwell v Rangers the other day there was still the premise that motherweel needed to beat them to try and get this champions League place.

Did I imagine a few weeks ago that the club had to be out of admin by 31 March to have any chance of Europe?

There seems to have been no word after that deadline having been passed that Rangers are now officially out of Europe next year?

That is the case though I think they can still appeal if special circumstances are in place. These could include not being able to read or write due to them being knuckle draggers, the big house must stay open and they arra peepil.

[JeMeSouviens]

They gave up on Europe ages ago:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17287929

... and it was mentioned in the lead up to their game v the Huns that 3rd would do for CL:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17532237

Fancy United to catch them anyway.

[JeMeSouviens]

As Rangers continue to unravel, the same situation could follow at their ex-Parent company, MIH. Once those carpets are lifted, we could yet see David Murray being disbarred as a Company Director.

Or is that just wishful thinking on my part ?

If the post-FTT revelations are as juicy as RTC hints, Murray could be joining Fred Goodwin in the ex-knights' club.

[Andy74]

They gave up on Europe ages ago:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17287929

... and it was mentioned in the lead up to their game v the Huns that 3rd would do for CL:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17532237

Fancy United to catch them anyway.

There's still a few 'ifs' in there and I am surprised not to have seen some official confirmation with the date having passed.

[CropleyWasGod]

There's still a few 'ifs' in there and I am surprised not to have seen some official confirmation with the date having passed.

To be fair, the deadline was only on Saturday.

Given that that was the deadline for every club in Scotland to get their appropriate licence submissions in, I'd imagine that the SFA will be very busy today.

[jgl07]

To be fair, the deadline was only on Saturday.

Given that that was the deadline for every club in Scotland to get their appropriate licence submissions in, I'd imagine that the SFA will be very busy today.

More to the point, did Hearts get their accounts in on time?

[CropleyWasGod]

More to the point, did Hearts get their accounts in on time?

We can but hope.

Not.

[blindsummit]

notice that Rangerstaxcase has been down all day. Under cyber attack from the Loyal and their chums in the MSM perhaps?

:whistle:

[TheEastTerrace]

notice that Rangerstaxcase has been down all day. Under cyber attack from the Loyal and their chums in the MSM perhaps?

:whistle:

Same happened to Phil Mac's website a while back when some of the more interesting revelations began to emerge. Some big-wig current bun wrote to the hosting company and complained that the website was full of libelous claims about Rangers that were devaluing the club. Safe to say the website was back up and running not long after.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Have I misses something on Europe?

Motherwell v Rangers the other day there was still the premise that motherweel needed to beat them to try and get this champions League place.

Did I imagine a few weeks ago that the club had to be out of admin by 31 March to have any chance of Europe?

There seems to have been no word after that deadline having been passed that Rangers are now officially out of Europe next year?

I think it was more on the basis that Motherwell need points to stay ahead of Dundee United, St. Johnstone and possibly Hearts. The administrators have already accepted that Rangers won't be in compliance with the UEFA requirements.

[blindsummit]

Same happened to Phil Mac's website a while back when some of the more interesting revelations began to emerge. Some big-wig current bun wrote to the hosting company and complained that the website was full of libelous claims about Rangers that were devaluing the club. Safe to say the website was back up and running not long after.

If this is the case, I hope Rangerstaxcase is back up and running soon. And if they were shut down in this way, then I hope rtc gives us the scoop.

[Andy74]

I think it was more on the basis that Motherwell need points to stay ahead of Dundee United, St. Johnstone and possibly Hearts. The administrators have already accepted that Rangers won't be in compliance with the UEFA requirements.

Good. Just checking! :greengrin

[grunt]

notice that Rangerstaxcase has been down all day. Under cyber attack from the Loyal and their chums in the MSM perhaps?

:whistle:

Rangers Tax-Case‏@rangerstaxcase (Tax-Case‏@rangerstaxcase)Looks like DoS attack on the blog. Will prob take a few days to fix. Coincidental timing I am sure! :-)

[blindsummit]

Rangers Tax-Case‏@rangerstaxcase (Tax-Case‏@rangerstaxcase)Looks like DoS attack on the blog. Will prob take a few days to fix. Coincidental timing I am sure! :-)

I would just love to know who has coordinated this attack. That knowledge could be explosive if uncovered.

[Eyrie]

Nice quote from Duff and Duffer in today's Scotsman about the possibility of liquidation :pray: that "... there is an amount of toxicity in there ...". Just surprised that it was in reference to their past financial decisions and not to their support.

[Granton Stanton]

Question for those with the accountancy hats on - CavG & CWG come to mind.

If these EBT's were loans than cant the club or creditors pursue those who got the loans for repayment?

Now that would be good, can you imagine the squealing.

[Eyrie]

My understanding is that an EBT is a separate legal entity to the club and so is not affected by the current administration.

[CropleyWasGod]

Question for those with the accountancy hats on - CavG & CWG come to mind.

If these EBT's were loans than cant the club or creditors pursue those who got the loans for repayment?

Now that would be good, can you imagine the squealing.

I was thinking about this yesterday, actually....

As I understand it, the "loans" were from the Trust... which was set up, I believe, in Jersey or Guernsey. The Trust was funded by contributions from the Club.

So, it's only the Trust that can recover the loans from it. Once the money left the Club, the Club no longer has control.



Which is a shame. It would have been good to see Amoruso, Laudrup, Albertz et al having their days in Court.

[greenginger]

Just getting round to reading the back pages of this morning's rag.

Martin Bain's excuse for the EBT scandal is now ,

" I acted in strict accordance with the tax and legal instructions given by the Murray Group "

" At Rangers, we had no in-house legal and tax advice. This all came from the head office of the Murray Group "

Is Bain trying to cut some slack for the Huns with the HMRC, or simply trying to save his own neck from the Govan lynch-mob when Armageddon arrives.

[CropleyWasGod]

Just getting round to reading the back pages of this morning's rag.

Martin Bain's excuse for the EBT scandal is now ,

" I acted in strict accordance with the tax and legal instructions given by the Murray Group "

" At Rangers, we had no in-house legal and tax advice. This all came from the head office of the Murray Group "

Is Bain trying to cut some slack for the Huns with the HMRC, or simply trying to save his own neck from the Govan lynch-mob when Armageddon arrives.

Ass-saving, I reckon. No more, no less. There will be a lot of that in the near future.

It's irrelevant to HMRC who was giving the advice. RFC took it, or didn't take it, and had their finger on the trigger.

[banchoryhibs]

I was thinking about this yesterday, actually....

As I understand it, the "loans" were from the Trust... which was set up, I believe, in Jersey or Guernsey. The Trust was funded by contributions from the Club.

So, it's only the Trust that can recover the loans from it. Once the money left the Club, the Club no longer has control

I guess that there may be a little mileage in this. On the C4 news story last week a guy called Paul Baxendale-Walker (Google him!) was interviewed. He suggested that Der Hun would have received advice from his "bible" on EBTs and offshore tax guidance but then "did something different". He clearly distanced himself from their actions and, by doing so, appeared to suggest that they were fairly well screwed.

If no discretionary payments were made into the trust then Der Hun retained de facto control over the funds. If this was indeed the case Duff & Duffer may well then have some right of recovery....... now that would be far too good to be true. :greengrin

Although I think that there is probably enough distance between the loans and the club for such a recovery to be fairly unlikely. Shame.

[CropleyWasGod]

I guess that there may be a little mileage in this. On the C4 news story last week a guy called Paul Baxendale-Walker (Google him!) was interviewed. He suggested that Der Hun would have received advice from his "bible" on EBTs and offshore tax guidance but then "did something different". He clearly distanced himself from their actions and, by doing so, appeared to suggest that they were fairly well screwed.

If no discretionary payments were made into the trust then Der Hun retained de facto control over the funds. If this was indeed the case Duff & Duffer may well then have some right of recovery....... now that would be far too good to be true. :greengrin

Although I think that there is probably enough distance between the loans and the club for such a recovery to be fairly unlikely. Shame.

Is it such a shame, though? If the admins thought they had a case for recovery of the payments, they could be here for years taking the legal actions. The amounts involved might be enough to keep them solvent.

We dinny want that....

Nah, on reflection.... it's clutching at straws in cloud cuckoo land. :greengrin

[banchoryhibs]

We dinny want that....



Absolutely agreed::aok::greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

There is no way they can reclaim the money as all the players have letters saying they don't have to pay back the loans. That's why they are in so much trouble in the first place.

[Dashing Bob S]

Just getting round to reading the back pages of this morning's rag.

Martin Bain's excuse for the EBT scandal is now ,

" I acted in strict accordance with the tax and legal instructions given by the Murray Group "

" At Rangers, we had no in-house legal and tax advice. This all came from the head office of the Murray Group "

Is Bain trying to cut some slack for the Huns with the HMRC, or simply trying to save his own neck from the Govan lynch-mob when Armageddon arrives.

It's really sad to see such a loyal and steadfast group of people turning on each other. :fibber::fibber::fibber::fibber::fibber:

[Hibernia&Alba]

http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmnw/ticketus_debt_smashed_by_17m_in_stunning_paul_murr ay_deal_737890/index.shtml



Over to CWG and our other financial yins......

[WindyMiller]

http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmnw/ticketus_debt_smashed_by_17m_in_stunning_paul_murr ay_deal_737890/index.shtml



Over to CWG and our other financial yins......


So there is a Santa Claus!

[lucky]

http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmnw/ticketus_debt_smashed_by_17m_in_stunning_paul_murr ay_deal_737890/index.shtml



Over to CWG and our other financial yins......

Why would Ticketus wipe out £17m? Unless they are getting a major shareholding in the Blue Knights deal which they sell on at a later date.

[Kaiser1962]

So there is a Santa Claus!


Whatever deal they have done, or think they have done, with Ticketus is immaterial if the BTC goes against them. They wont find HMRC as accomodating. Theres also the small matter of CW's 85% shareholding to overcome.

[Ozyhibby]

Why would Ticketus wipe out £17m? Unless they are getting a major shareholding in the Blue Knights deal which they sell on at a later date.

Because a debt free rangers after a CVA (it won't happen) or liquidation would be worth a lot more.
A CVA is even less likely if HMRC feel that tickets is moving up the Q of creditors. Their rules for granting one state that all creditors are treated equally.

[ancienthibby]

Because a debt free rangers after a CVA (it won't happen) or liquidation would be worth a lot more.
A CVA is even less likely if HMRC feel that tickets is moving up the Q of creditors. Their rules for granting one state that all creditors are treated equally.

'End game in sight' (from today's Herald)


They are calling a creditors meeting for Friday, April 20 at Ibrox, when they will present their proposals for taking Rangers out of administration. This will involve two possible scenarios: exiting via a Company Voluntary Arrangement, or the assets being sold to a newco. The creditors will, effectively, be voting for which of the two outcomes suits them best, but by then the likely future of the club will have been determined.
As administrators, Duff & Phelps have three priorities, in order: first, to try to rescue the company as a going concern; second, to achieve a better result for the creditors than winding the company up; then lastly, selling assets to raise funds to be distributed to the secured or preferred creditors. In their proposal, Duff & Phelps must explain any reasons why they would consider either or both of the first two objectives to be impossible to meet.
The three remaining interested parties – the Blue Knights consortium, Club 9 Sports and a Singapore-based consortium – must submit their best and final offers by tomorrow, with proof of funding. Duff & Phelps will then decide upon their preferred bidder. They can offer a period of exclusivity, during which the administrators cannot enter in negotiations with any other potential buyers, in return for a non-refundable fee, thought to be in the region of £1m.
The deposit acts as further proof of intention, and provides an element of security for the winning offer. It also establishes how much money Duff & Phelps can utilise in a CVA, allowing them to then begin negotiations between the dominant creditors and their preferred bidder. The likelihood or otherwise of a CVA will have, in effect, been determined before the creditors meeting is held, since Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs already represent a large percentage of Rangers' debt.
For a CVA to be passed, creditors holding 75% or more of the debt must vote in favour, and if the first tier tax tribunal finds in HMRC's favour – landing Rangers with another tax bill of up to £50m – they alone could determine the outcome of the CVA. The votes of the other creditors would then essentially be irrelevant.
Yet it seems unlikely that any of the interested parties other than the Blue Knights could pull together a workable CVA. Paul Murray's move to bring Ticketus – the company that lent Craig Whyte £24.4m in return for future season ticket sales – into his consortium means that if the Knights are successful in their bid to buy the club, Ticketus will not be among the creditors.
Murray, the former Rangers director, is also thought to have negotiated better repayment terms and conditions from Ticketus, freeing up more revenue in the short-term and allowing the club to re-stabilise more quickly. Ticketus would also effectively act as the club's bank, providing a bridging loan for working capital until a share issue is held, with the proceeds being split between CVA payments – HMRC often agree to CVAs that involve a lump sum payment then further installments form future revenue – and investment.
Under the Knights' plans, the rest of the creditors would receive more money from the CVA, and their deal with Ticketus also avoids further legal battles. In a court judgment last week, Lord Hodge declared that Ticketus's claim on future season ticket sales cannot be enforced – because it is not recognised in Scots Law – but they do have a contractual entitlement.
"Although Lord Hodge's decision has, if you like, got rid of the Ticketus rights to future income, Ticketus will almost certainly have an unsecured claim against the football club," says Maureen Leslie of MLM Solutions, the insolvency practitioners. "Lord Hodge left it open just a tiny bit by not precluding Ticketus taking their case to a higher court. If you're going to have months of horrendous litigation, that's going to prevent you from taking a CVA forward within a realistic time frame. You need to get that litigation out of the way."
Club 9 Sports, the Chicago-based investment fund, are believed to have made the highest indicative offer for the club – around £25m – but this is thought to contain several clauses that could see it reduced to become closer to the other bids. Herald Sport has also received a firm denial from the owners of the New York Yankees that they are among the backers. Club 9 Sports are also not thought to have carried out due diligence on Rangers, even though Duff & Phelps set up a website with secured access to a data vault of all the relevant financial and legal information.
"One of the reasons you do diligence is to understand the obligations you're taking on," says Neil Patey, a partner with Ernst and Young. "That all disappears if you're just buying the assets. The other part is understanding the revenue generation of what you're buying, the wage structure, what the historical expenses are. But in a distressed scenario you're just buying the assets so there's less diligence done.
"Why go down the liquidation route? It is cleaner. A CVA is about preserving history. You could see why a Paul Murray consortium would be much more aligned to the history than an American investor."
Duff & Phelps are duty bound to accept the highest offer, but they must also be certain the bidders can deliver. Liquidation and starting the club under a newco is the simplest route out of administration – so still the most likely – while a CVA requires the new owners to submit business plans, cost and future revenue projections for creditors to scrutinise. Yet the Blue Knights' bid has been constructed in such a way as to make it favourable for both the club and the prospects of gaining a CVA.
With Duff & Phelps planning to name their preferred bidder on Thursday, the coming days will be critical to the shape of Rangers' future.

[Caversham Green]

I know, but I think St Mirren should also be making a complaint to the SPL - Withey should have been nowhere near those negotiations as he had a clear conflict of interest.

If you've ventured over to the dark side recently you'll know that Hearts were charged with failing to act in the utmost good faith towards the league and its members - this is a far more blatant example of that than the yams paying their players late. In fact it looks to me like there was a Plan B that involved the remnants of RFC buying out St Mirren.

Now, I'm not one to say I told you so but.....

http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=11540

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmnw/ticketus_debt_smashed_by_17m_in_stunning_paul_murr ay_deal_737890/index.shtml



Over to CWG and our other financial yins......

I'm loath to believe anything I read on Follow Follow, but I see Keith Jackson is saying a similar thing.

It all seems to good to be true, which for me normally means it probably is.

I would rather wait until Ticketus themselves say what the truth is.

Edit....The BBC's report suggests things aren't as final as PM claims. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17592209

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17588695


Rangers owner Craig Whyte has been warned by police that he is an "increased security risk".
Officers believe the businessman could be in danger of being targeted by fans for his part in the financial collapse of the club, which has been placed in administration


och, leave the poor wee man alone :( he was only trying his best :cb

[green glory]

I'm loath to believe anything I read on Follow Follow, but I see Keith Jackson is saying a similar thing.

It all seems to good to be true, which for me normally means it probably is.

I would rather wait until Ticketus themselves say what the truth is.

Edit....The BBC's report suggests things aren't as final as PM claims. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17592209

Talks are still ongoing. Nothing has been signed between PM and Ticketus yet. Tabloids feed Orc hordes positive news to keep selling their sh*tey newspapers shock.

[CropleyWasGod]

Talks are still ongoing. Nothing has been signed between PM and Ticketus yet. Tabloids feed Orc hordes positive news to keep selling their sh*tey newspapers shock.

The talks:-

Murray, P. "Ok, guys. You write off £17m. We pay back the rest when we can, with no interest. You also give us another £10m. Is that ok?"

Ticketus "Beat it."

The end.

[SurferRosa]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17588695


Rangers owner Craig Whyte has been warned by police that he is an "increased security risk".
Officers believe the businessman could be in danger of being targeted by fans for his part in the financial collapse of the club, which has been placed in administration


och, leave the poor wee man alone :( he was only trying his best :cb

These will be the same fantastic, wonderful supporters who,we keep getting told, dont deserve to be in this mess.......

Hurry up and die Rangers....

[PatHead]

BBC now reporting deal

The Blue Knights consortium believe a deal has been broadly agreed with Ticketus to wipe £17m off the debt they are owed by Rangers.
The two parties plan to mount their bid for the club on Wednesday.
Details of the proposals are still to be finalised, but it would mean Rangers owe Ticketus just £10m if the Blue Knights take over.
That sum would be paid back interest-free over seven years, with nothing repaid in the first two years.
If the agreement is concluded, the Blue Knights-controlled Rangers would also benefit from £10m in working capital from Ticketus prior to a fans share issue.

The rest of the article is just padding.

[Caversham Green]

I'm loath to believe anything I read on Follow Follow, but I see Keith Jackson is saying a similar thing.

It all seems to good to be true, which for me normally means it probably is.

I would rather wait until Ticketus themselves say what the truth is.

Edit....The BBC's report suggests things aren't as final as PM claims. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17592209

:agree: It's always worth bearing in mind that Ticketus are in business to make money for their clients, not to rescue destitute football clubs. Unless there's something we're not being told this deal will cost them more money rather than recovering what they've already sunk. With Whyte now saying he's willing to sell to Murray it feels like a concerted attempt to put pressure on the administrators ahead of tomorrow's deadline.

[CropleyWasGod]

BBC now reporting deal

The Blue Knights consortium believe a deal has been broadly agreed with Ticketus to wipe £17m off the debt they are owed by Rangers.
The two parties plan to mount their bid for the club on Wednesday.
Details of the proposals are still to be finalised, but it would mean Rangers owe Ticketus just £10m if the Blue Knights take over.
That sum would be paid back interest-free over seven years, with nothing repaid in the first two years.
If the agreement is concluded, the Blue Knights-controlled Rangers would also benefit from £10m in working capital from Ticketus prior to a fans share issue.

The rest of the article is just padding.

Pat... I have underlined what I think are the key words here.

Are your clients not a bit nervous?

[cabbageandribs1875]

These will be the same fantastic, wonderful supporters who,we keep getting told, dont deserve to be in this mess.......

Hurry up and die Rangers....


my(and thousands of others) sentiments exactly :greengrin but it aint gonna happen unfortunately :(

[CropleyWasGod]

my(and thousands of others) sentiments exactly :greengrin but it aint gonna happen unfortunately :(

Courage, mon brave. Hector still has his cards to play.

[Bristolhibby]

Oh dear.

The tax case explained.

http://www.channel4.com/news/revealed-the-payments-that-may-lead-to-rangers-downfall

When is the ruling on the £50m tax case going to happen. Surely that will destroy Rangers and force them into liquidation?

J

[Andy74]

BBC now reporting deal

The Blue Knights consortium believe a deal has been broadly agreed with Ticketus to wipe £17m off the debt they are owed by Rangers.
The two parties plan to mount their bid for the club on Wednesday.
Details of the proposals are still to be finalised, but it would mean Rangers owe Ticketus just £10m if the Blue Knights take over.
That sum would be paid back interest-free over seven years, with nothing repaid in the first two years.
If the agreement is concluded, the Blue Knights-controlled Rangers would also benefit from £10m in working capital from Ticketus prior to a fans share issue.

The rest of the article is just padding.

And Ticketus take money out of Ranger for ever more.

There's no danger Ticketus will agree to anything unless it provides them with at least their money back.

[PatHead]

And Ticketus take money out of Ranger for ever more.

There's no danger Ticketus will agree to anything unless it provides them with at least their money back.

Think they would be looking for more than they can expect from liquidation and them becoming a "normal" creditor. The old "half of something is better than all of nothing" would be their take. Don't think it will be as straightforward as is being reported though.

[PatHead]

Pat... I have underlined what I think are the key words here.

Are your clients not a bit nervous?

Don't have any clients invested in their VCT/EISs which are affected by this investment. As these are high risk investment vehicles by nature clients would have to expect a risk of their investment going belly up. They will, more then likely, have already received 40% tax relief which will be a cushion and the funds will have been invested in more than Rangers in the first case. By the sounds of it though this has become a very illiquid investment unless Ticketus have a 3 year exit strategy.

[hibs0666]

Huns have applied to the SFA for a European club licence apparently.

[ancienthibby]

Huns have applied to the SFA for a European club licence apparently.

More breaking news from the Beeb:

Brian Kennedy expected to be among up to five bidders for Rangershttp://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/57774000/jpg/_57774072_chrismc.jpgBy Chris McLaughlinSenior Football Reporter, BBC Scotland
Rangers' administrator is expecting four or five final bids for the club - and BBC Scotland understands Brian Kennedy will be one of them.
It is believed the owner of Sale Sharks rugby club has tabled a fresh offer.
BBC Scotland also understands that owner Craig Whyte has agreed to transfer his shares to the Blue Knights consortium led by Paul Murray.
Meanwhile, Duff and Phelps is investigating the consequences of liquidation with football authorities.
The administrator has confirmed that it has started negotiations with both the Scottish Premier League and the Scottish Football Association over the formation of a so-called newco Rangers should that course of action be followed by a new prospective owner.
More to follow...

[Leithenhibby]

More breaking news from the Beeb:

Brian Kennedy expected to be among up to five bidders for Rangershttp://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/57774000/jpg/_57774072_chrismc.jpgBy Chris McLaughlinSenior Football Reporter, BBC Scotland
Rangers' administrator is expecting four or five final bids for the club - and BBC Scotland understands Brian Kennedy will be one of them.
It is believed the owner of Sale Sharks rugby club has tabled a fresh offer.
BBC Scotland also understands that owner Craig Whyte has agreed to transfer his shares to the Blue Knights consortium led by Paul Murray.
Meanwhile, Duff and Phelps is investigating the consequences of liquidation with football authorities.
The administrator has confirmed that it has started negotiations with both the Scottish Premier League and the Scottish Football Association over the formation of a so-called newco Rangers should that course of action be followed by a new prospective owner.
More to follow...


:rolleyes: Nothing like trying to drum up business :wink:

[Andy74]

Think they would be looking for more than they can expect from liquidation and them becoming a "normal" creditor. The old "half of something is better than all of nothing" would be their take. Don't think it will be as straightforward as is being reported though.

Sticking another £10m in working capital on top of what they've already given over? Seems like they will be extracting what they can as joint owners of the club for as long as they can if they get in.

[Caversham Green]

Think they would be looking for more than they can expect from liquidation and them becoming a "normal" creditor. The old "half of something is better than all of nothing" would be their take. Don't think it will be as straightforward as is being reported though.

It strikes me that Ticketus are the one concern that would benefit financially from RFC surviving in its current form, because they could then enforce their original contract - or a diluted version of it. The arrangement that's being reported seems to me to destroy that advantage to the extent that they'd probably be better off in a liquidation. There has to be more behind this deal than meets the eye (or at least more than meets my eye).

[Andy74]

Huns have applied to the SFA for a European club licence apparently.

I thought it had been a bit quiet on that front. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

Meanwhile, alex thomson has been chatting to Craig Whyte today, from his twitter:



CW reiterated his point that he is due £30 million and wants his £30 million
CW tells me " I've now spoken to all the bidders except Club 9 and none of them wants to seel liquidation"
CW tells me "so far as I understand Paul Murray isn't putting in any of his own money" into RFC bid
CW tells me liquidation of RFC is "absolutely unnecessary" all RFC needs "is to live within its means in future"
Says he's not for walking away and wants to see CVA to exit administration
Craig Whyte tells me any notion he's selling his shares to PM is " absolute nonsense."

[Caversham Green]

Huns have applied to the SFA for a European club licence apparently.

I think I would have done the same in the administrators' position - they have to make the application even if they know it will be refused. If they do get the licence though........:timebomb::furious::worms:

[hibs0666]

I think I would have done the same in the administrators' position - they have to make the application even if they know it will be refused. If they do get the licence though........:timebomb::furious::worms:

Their argument seems to be that the UEFA deadline is not until June and so there is plenty of time to get things sorted out.

[jgl07]

Their argument seems to be that the UEFA deadline is not until June and so there is plenty of time to get things sorted out.

Just like it was with Portsmouth two or three years back. Not!

In any event the draw for the 1st and 2nd Qualifying Rounds is to be held on 25 June. It will need to be resolved well before then.

[Jack]

It strikes me that Ticketus are the one concern that would benefit financially from RFC surviving in its current form, because they could then enforce their original contract - or a diluted version of it. The arrangement that's being reported seems to me to destroy that advantage to the extent that they'd probably be better off in a liquidation. There has to be more behind this deal than meets the eye (or at least more than meets my eye).


Meanwhile, alex thomson has been chatting to Craig Whyte today, from his twitter:


CW reiterated his point that he is due £30 million and wants his £30 million
CW tells me " I've now spoken to all the bidders except Club 9 and none of them wants to seel liquidation"
CW tells me "so far as I understand Paul Murray isn't putting in any of his own money" into RFC bid
CW tells me liquidation of RFC is "absolutely unnecessary" all RFC needs "is to live within its means in future"
Says he's not for walking away and wants to see CVA to exit administration
Craig Whyte tells me any notion he's selling his shares to PM is " absolute nonsense."

Could these two be related?

Ticketus know they will get the money from CW, or at least stand a good chance, through the courts, or some such thing … which is why CW wants £30m. Enough to pay off Ticketus and a few million in his tail for his troubles.

[PaulSmith]

http://bit.ly/Hi1ooy

Interesting as BBC were reporting only minutes previously that Whyte had agreed to sell to Blue Knights.

He, Whyte, wants his 30m back as well :)

[smurf]

The story today is confirmation that the administrators are speaking to the footalling authorities about the consequences of liquidation.

Why isn't the BBC reporting that?

[ancienthibby]

The story today is confirmation that the administrators are speaking to the footalling authorities about the consequences of liquidation.

Why isn't the BBC reporting that?

They have been, Mr Smurf - see post at 2.39pm today!

[jgl07]

Could these two be related?

Ticketus know they will get the money from CW, or at least stand a good chance, through the courts, or some such thing … which is why CW wants £30m. Enough to pay off Ticketus and a few million in his tail for his troubles.

Get £30 million from Whyte?

You have got to be joking.

Whyte will get no more than a nominal price for his shares.

The club is insolvent and the Big Tax case will flatten what is left once the Tribunal reports.

[Keith_M]

"I have £30m in cash and guarantees on the line but I would walk away if it is best for Rangers."


What???? He bought the club with a pound and paid off the Lloyds debt with somebody else's money. Exactly when has he put any money into rangers???

[Dan Sarf]

From today's Scotsman:

"... Kennedy is thought to have upped his interest in Rangers as he is keen to avoid the club being liquidised."

:faf:

[Jim44]

From today's Scotsman:

"... Kennedy is thought to have upped his interest in Rangers as he is keen to avoid the club being liquidised."

:faf:

That would be a 'solution' to please us all.:agree:

[PaulSmith]

And now Kennedy says he will not bid.
A bad day for the pr machine of rangers?

[green glory]

5...4...3...2... Cannae be long now!!!!!!

[lapsedhibee]

From today's Scotsman:

"... Kennedy is thought to have upped his interest in Rangers as he is keen to avoid the club being liquidised."

:faf:

They'll be up to their knees in bodily fluids!

[HibeesLA]

It strikes me that Ticketus are the one concern that would benefit financially from RFC surviving in its current form, because they could then enforce their original contract - or a diluted version of it. The arrangement that's being reported seems to me to destroy that advantage to the extent that they'd probably be better off in a liquidation. There has to be more behind this deal than meets the eye (or at least more than meets my eye).

Since it's reported that the £10m is working capital until the share offer, any chance then Cav that this share offer will include some money being ringfenced to then pay Ticketus back, possibly both the £10m working capital, and maybe a lump sum on top? Maybe even offer then non voting stock that they can sell down the line when the price jumps enough?

[hibs0666]

"I have £30m in cash and guarantees on the line but I would walk away if it is best for Rangers."


What???? He bought the club with a pound and paid off the Lloyds debt with somebody else's money. Exactly when has he put any money into rangers???

Whyte has done a bit of jiggery pokery to try and ensure that he stays at the head of the queue when the dosh is being doled out.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/302529-rangers-owner-craig-whyte-in-move-to-protect-hold-over-club/

[JeMeSouviens]

So, does it work like this?

Whyte's RFC Group (formerly Wavetower) buys RFC for £1.

RFC sells xx thousand STs up front for £27M.

RFC Group borrows £18M from RFC, pays off Lloyds, thereby taking on the secured debt of RFC. There are now loans in both directions but one is unsecured.

Whyte takes out a debenture over RFC Group securing first dibs on any money accruing to it before its creditors (RFC).

RFC liquidises, RFC Group collects the security (Ibrox + Murray Park), Whyte shuts down RFC Group and heads for the hills.

[ancient hibee]

So, does it work like this?

Whyte's RFC Group (formerly Wavetower) buys RFC for £1.

RFC sells xx thousand STs up front for £27M.

RFC Group borrows £18M from RFC, pays off Lloyds, thereby taking on the secured debt of RFC. There are now loans in both directions but one is unsecured.

Whyte takes out a debenture over RFC Group securing first dibs on any money accruing to it before its creditors (RFC).

RFC liquidises, RFC Group collects the security (Ibrox + Murray Park), Whyte shuts down RFC Group and heads for the hills.


Pursued by large men all sounding like Dr.Paisley.

[Caversham Green]

Since it's reported that the £10m is working capital until the share offer, any chance then Cav that this share offer will include some money being ringfenced to then pay Ticketus back, possibly both the £10m working capital, and maybe a lump sum on top? Maybe even offer then non voting stock that they can sell down the line when the price jumps enough?

I dont know if they could ring-fence that money. If it comes in before exiting administration it would surely have to go into the CVA pot, and if it's a post-administration promise they would have real difficulty achieving the CVA - who's going to accept keechpence in the pound when they know there's more money to come from the new owners? I do suspect there must be a value in equity prospect, but it looks very high-risk to me. Alternatively, Ticketus could be into RFC's income for a very long time.

Now here's another thing that's got me baffled

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17601438


Originally posted by Phluff & Skelps "What we have also discussed with interest parties is the concept of a hybrid of both whereby they could buy the business into a newco but trade it through the existing company to preserve the SPL share."

How's that gonna work then? If Oldco survives the debt remains with it unless there's a CVA, and if there's a CVA there's no point in having a newco.

[stokesmessiah]

Club9 Sports have just pulled the plug on their bid.

[stokesmessiah]

Statement from CLUB 9 SPORTS
“We can confirm that representatives of Club 9 Sports have been involved with investigating, analyzing
and considering a potential purchase of Rangers Football Club, plc on behalf of a group of interested
parties from the US and UK. However, at no time has Club 9 Sports itself offered a bid to acquire the
club. Our role has been as a member of a proposed consortium. We can also confirm that we have not
met with, spoken to or otherwise been associated with Craig Whyte in any way.
Furthermore, Club 9 Sports will not be bidding for control of Rangers Football Club, plc. We understand
that it has been strongly rumored that our group planned to “liquidate” the club. It should be made
clear that any party that attempts to acquire the club, eliminate the debts, affect a turnaround, invest
monies and put the club back on solid ground is in fact “saving” the club from liquidation and preserving
its past and its future. In an asset purchase, all of the good and valuable assets (records, marks, names,
trophies, players, staff, history) are preserved and separated from the bad and harmful liabilities (tax
bills, bad contracts, creditors), which have put the club into administration and which act to force the
entirety into liquidation. By putting all of the assets into a different corporate structure, the assets are
in fact rescued from liquidation. Such a transaction would be very similar to the one that occurred at
Leeds United in 2007, which simultaneously rescued that club, maintained its proud history and allowed
the club to shed its debt burdens so that it could have the opportunity for future success.
Finally, we would like to acknowledge that any successful bidder for Rangers will indeed need to
embrace the legendary fan base of the club and communicate with openness and regularity. There is no
doubt that the remarkable record of championships won by Rangers is matched only by its equally
remarkable support from legions of fans, supporters and followers throughout the world.”

[Spike Mandela]

Statement from CLUB 9 SPORTS
“We can confirm that representatives of Club 9 Sports have been involved with investigating, analyzing
and considering a potential purchase of Rangers Football Club, plc on behalf of a group of interested
parties from the US and UK. However, at no time has Club 9 Sports itself offered a bid to acquire the
club. Our role has been as a member of a proposed consortium. We can also confirm that we have not
met with, spoken to or otherwise been associated with Craig Whyte in any way.
Furthermore, Club 9 Sports will not be bidding for control of Rangers Football Club, plc. We understand
that it has been strongly rumored that our group planned to “liquidate” the club. It should be made
clear that any party that attempts to acquire the club, eliminate the debts, affect a turnaround, invest
monies and put the club back on solid ground is in fact “saving” the club from liquidation and preserving
its past and its future. In an asset purchase, all of the good and valuable assets (records, marks, names,
trophies, players, staff, history) are preserved and separated from the bad and harmful liabilities (tax
bills, bad contracts, creditors), which have put the club into administration and which act to force the
entirety into liquidation. By putting all of the assets into a different corporate structure, the assets are
in fact rescued from liquidation. Such a transaction would be very similar to the one that occurred at
Leeds United in 2007, which simultaneously rescued that club, maintained its proud history and allowed
the club to shed its debt burdens so that it could have the opportunity for future success.
Finally, we would like to acknowledge that any successful bidder for Rangers will indeed need to
embrace the legendary fan base of the club and communicate with openness and regularity. There is no
doubt that the remarkable record of championships won by Rangers is matched only by its equally
remarkable support from legions of fans, supporters and followers throughout the world.”

WTF!!!!! Pass the ****ing sickbag.

[hibs0666]

Statement from CLUB 9 SPORTS
“We can confirm that representatives of Club 9 Sports have been involved with investigating, analyzing
and considering a potential purchase of Rangers Football Club, plc on behalf of a group of interested
parties from the US and UK. However, at no time has Club 9 Sports itself offered a bid to acquire the
club. Our role has been as a member of a proposed consortium. We can also confirm that we have not
met with, spoken to or otherwise been associated with Craig Whyte in any way.
Furthermore, Club 9 Sports will not be bidding for control of Rangers Football Club, plc. We understand
that it has been strongly rumored that our group planned to “liquidate” the club. It should be made
clear that any party that attempts to acquire the club, eliminate the debts, affect a turnaround, invest
monies and put the club back on solid ground is in fact “saving” the club from liquidation and preserving
its past and its future. In an asset purchase, all of the good and valuable assets (records, marks, names,
trophies, players, staff, history) are preserved and separated from the bad and harmful liabilities (tax
bills, bad contracts, creditors), which have put the club into administration and which act to force the
entirety into liquidation. By putting all of the assets into a different corporate structure, the assets are
in fact rescued from liquidation. Such a transaction would be very similar to the one that occurred at
Leeds United in 2007, which simultaneously rescued that club, maintained its proud history and allowed
the club to shed its debt burdens so that it could have the opportunity for future success.
Finally, we would like to acknowledge that any successful bidder for Rangers will indeed need to
embrace the legendary fan base of the club and communicate with openness and regularity. There is no
doubt that the remarkable record of championships won by Rangers is matched only by its equally
remarkable support from legions of fans, supporters and followers throughout the world.”

So what was the shimmy that Leeds pulled?

[jgl07]

So what was the shimmy that Leeds pulled?


Leeds tried to go with a CVA with Bates offering 1 pence in the pound later rising to 8 pence in the pound but this was blocked by a legal challenge from HMRC.It was a very dubious CVA as there was strong suspicion that certain of the major creditors were 'persuaded' to vote for the CVA (and this shaft HMRC) by being offered shares in the new company.

Evenually the club was sold by KPMG. This was accepted by the Football League and the Newco was allowed to remain in League One with a 15 point penalty for next seeason. There was no doubt that Ken Bates was behind the bid. It was not possible to find out who the new owners were are it was all hidden behind a holding company somewhere in the Cayman Islands.

Eventually the Football League upgraded its disclosure rules following pressure from the Premier League and the precise ownership details became public.

[hibs0666]

Leeds tried to go with a CVA with Bates offering 1 pence in the pound later rising to 8 pence in the pound but this was blocked by a legal challenge from HMRC.It was a very dubious CVA as there was strong suspicion that certain of the major creditors were 'persuaded' to vote for the CVA (and this shaft HMRC) by being offered shares in the new company.

Evenually the club was sold by KPMG. This was accepted by the Football League and the Newco was allowed to remain in League One with a 15 point penalty for next seeason. There was no doubt that Ken Bates was behind the bid. It was not possible to find out who the new owners were are it was all hidden behind a holding company somewhere in the Cayman Islands.

Eventually the Football League upgraded its disclosure rules following pressure from the Premier League and the precise ownership details became public.

OK cheers.

[CentreLine]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17588695


Rangers owner Craig Whyte has been warned by police that he is an "increased security risk".
Officers believe the businessman could be in danger of being targeted by fans for his part in the financial collapse of the club, which has been placed in administration


och, leave the poor wee man alone :( he was only trying his best :cb

Absolutely disgusting and every red-top and other news outlet in the country should be saying so and condemning this gangster and torrorist behaviour. They should then take a long hard look at the biased way many of them have reported this mess

[cabbageandribs1875]

Courage, mon brave. Hector still has his cards to play.


i have this feeling that Hector will do exactly what duff & duffer want him to do :(

[Spike Mandela]

Administrators leaning more to American takeover and liquidation by sound of if, but bun fight seems to be in full swing.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2124756/Rangers-crisis-American-Club-9-Sports-reveal-plans.html

[SteveHFC]

Administrators leaning more to American takeover and liquidation by sound of if, but bun fight seems to be in full swing.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2124756/Rangers-crisis-American-Club-9-Sports-reveal-plans.html

If a newco Rangers get back in the SPL. Then **** Scottish Football :aok:

[CentreLine]

Administrators leaning more to American takeover and liquidation by sound of if, but bun fight seems to be in full swing.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2124756/Rangers-crisis-American-Club-9-Sports-reveal-plans.html

I thought the American shower declared themselves out only yesterday. What a mess

[Peevemor]

Administrators leaning more to American takeover and liquidation by sound of if, but bun fight seems to be in full swing.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2124756/Rangers-crisis-American-Club-9-Sports-reveal-plans.html


I thought the American shower declared themselves out only yesterday. What a mess



http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17601438

:confused:

[Bobo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17601438

:confused:

The paragraph below sums it up for me, just who the F*** do Rangers think they are?! Them and the Scottish football authorities, who bend over backwards for them, are a joke and embarrassment to everyone associated with the Scottish game!


"Meanwhile, Rangers have applied to Uefa for participation in its competitions - the Champions League and Europa League - next season despite having missed the 31 March cut-off for securing a licence and being told there would no extension granted"

[Ozyhibby]

If a newco Rangers get back in the SPL. Then **** Scottish Football :aok:

Took a totally unscientific straw poll in the pub tonight and out of the 6 Hibs fans in my company ( 5season ticket holders) 5 of them said they would no longer be interested if the Huns got away With it.

[camhibby1]

Took a totally unscientific straw poll in the pub tonight and out of the 6 Hibs fans in my company ( 5season ticket holders) 5 of them said they would no longer be interested if the Huns got away With it.


I've refrained from getting in to this conversation although I've read the posts. However today's news that the admins are looking at the 'possibility of a hybrid company to preserve the SPL share' is the end for me. I am writing to the Hibernian board today and after 16 years as a ST holder will not set foot in Easter Road again if this happens. This is the lowest of the low. There was an indication in last Friday's Herald that the SPL and SFA were preparing to abdicate responsibility by saying they would need to take external legal advice on interpretation of its own rules! They make the rules - they should know how to apply them.

We are talking about alleged criminal activity on a large scale here and the authorities are looking to absolve this crowd. It's an utter disgrace and every utterance in support of Rangers in its present state is a complicit acceptance of that alleged criminal activity - media et al plus the ramblings of the chairman of St Johnstone. I would also say that I do not believe for one moment that the players down the years can be absolved either. They have been active participants in all this by accepting the possible 'double contracts. They are given legal advice like all of us if we seek it. There is a simple question - is this legal?

I cannot believe either that the Scottish government can sit back and allow this mess to play itself out to the betterment of Rangers. If that's the case then it shows how rotten to the core the whole system is and that the administrators are equally culpable in it too.

Mr Petrie and the board in order to save Hibernian FC from losing a swathe of its support I suggest you speak out publicly against this whole mess in unequivocal terms.

[7 Hills]

If a newco Rangers get back in the SPL. Then **** Scottish Football :aok:


What he said! I am lucky enough to have a relatively secure job and I have worked my way into a position where I have a decent amount of disposable income. There are plenty of other things I could be doing at the weekend (and I'm not even guaranteed Saturday games - I note that only our last game of the post-split fixtures is on a Saturday!) and I have only renewed my season ticket over the past few years through sheer blind loyalty. I should actually be seeking compensation from somewhere, as it is now apparent that at least the past ten years' "competition" has been skewed by Rangers' financial doping!

Make no mistake - if these b******s are admitted straight back into the league as a debt-free newco, I, a Hibernian season ticket holder every year since season 1992 - 1993, will have no hesitation in walking away from this corrupt game. Leave the f*****s with nobody to play.

[John_the_angus_hibby]

I've refrained from getting in to this conversation although I've read the posts. However today's news that the admins are looking at the 'possibility of a hybrid company to preserve the SPL share' is the end for me. I am writing to the Hibernian board today and after 16 years as a ST holder will not set foot in Easter Road again if this happens. This is the lowest of the low. There was an indication in last Friday's Herald that the SPL and SFA were preparing to abdicate responsibility by saying they would need to take external legal advice on interpretation of its own rules! They make the rules - they should know how to apply them.

We are talking about alleged criminal activity on a large scale here and the authorities are looking to absolve this crowd. It's an utter disgrace and every utterance in support of Rangers in its present state is a complicit acceptance of that alleged criminal activity - media et al plus the ramblings of the chairman of St Johnstone. I would also say that I do not believe for one moment that the players down the years can be absolved either. They have been active participants in all this by accepting the possible 'double contracts. They are given legal advice like all of us if we seek it. There is a simple question - is this legal?

I cannot believe either that the Scottish government can sit back and allow this mess to play itself out to the betterment of Rangers. If that's the case then it shows how rotten to the core the whole system is and that the administrators are equally culpable in it too.

Mr Petrie and the board in order to save Hibernian FC from losing a swathe of its support I suggest you speak out publicly against this whole mess in unequivocal terms.

This for me also. I wish someone would conduct a pole into non OF fans re leaving the game if that cancerous mob gets back in in the way it is looking like. There needs to be some light put on this story in the press as those west of Scotland press ar$eholes are just ignoring it. Anyone has that C4 reporters contact derails? They are the only media outlet I can think who would do this.


Sent from another universe!

[Moulin Yarns]

11 years ago Fiorentina went bust, and had to start in Serie C2. the following is taken from Wiki, and shows the way things should happen in the case of the current Failed Rangers football club. With the exception of the double promotion, because there has never been anything like the Catania situatuin in Scottish Football, yet.




2001 heralded major changes for Fiorentina, as the terrible state of the club's finances was revealed: they were unable to pay wages and had debts of around USD 50 million. The club's owner, Vittorio Cecchi Gori, was able to raise some more money, but even this soon proved to be insufficient resources to sustain the club. Fiorentina were relegated at the end of the 2001-02 season and went into judicially controlled administration in June 2002. This form of bankruptcy meant that the club was refused a place in Serie B for the 2002-03 season, and as a result effectively ceased to exist.

The club was promptly re-established in August 2002 as Associazione Calcio Fiorentina e Florentia Viola with shoe and leather entrepreneur Diego Della Valle as new owner, and was admitted into Serie C2, the fourth tier of Italian football. The only player to remain at the club in its new incarnation was Angelo Di Livio , whose commitment to club's cause further endeared him to the fans. Helped by Di Livio and 30-goal striker Christianl Rigano, the club won its Serie C2 group with considerable ease, which would normally have led to a promotion to Serie C1. However, due to the bizarre Catania Case the club skipped Serie C1 and was admitted into Serie B, something that was only made possible by the Italian Football Federation's decision to resolve the Catania situation by increasing the number of teams in Serie B from 20 to 24 and promoting Fiorentina for "sports merits". In the 2003 off-season, the club also bought back the right to use the Fiorentina name and the famous shirt design, and re-incorporated itself as ACF Fiorentina.





The club's unusual double promotion was controversial, with some suggesting that Fiorentina did not deserve it. However, the club remained in Serie B and managed to finish the2003-04 season in sixth place.

[JeMeSouviens]

Hun sources are attempting to bandy Leeds around as a precedent for a newco phoenix being allowed to continue in their league. The Leeds situation is incredibly murky and Ken Bates seems to operate on a level of dodginess that makes Whyte seem like a rank amateur but it would appear that Leeds United AFC Ltd, the actual football club, has continued as the same company. Its old parent, Leeds United FC Ltd was liquidated and it was eventually bought by a new parent, which also seems to be called Leeds United FC Ltd but has a different company number.

The good news for the current situation is that the main reason Bates got away with his stunt is that HMRC were a <25% creditor so tried but failed to block the sale. The Huns don't have this luxury, even without the BTC, HMRC will be comfortably above 25%.

[cad]

I've refrained from getting in to this conversation although I've read the posts. However today's news that the admins are looking at the 'possibility of a hybrid company to preserve the SPL share' is the end for me. I am writing to the Hibernian board today and after 16 years as a ST holder will not set foot in Easter Road again if this happens. This is the lowest of the low. There was an indication in last Friday's Herald that the SPL and SFA were preparing to abdicate responsibility by saying they would need to take external legal advice on interpretation of its own rules! They make the rules - they should know how to apply them.

We are talking about alleged criminal activity on a large scale here and the authorities are looking to absolve this crowd. It's an utter disgrace and every utterance in support of Rangers in its present state is a complicit acceptance of that alleged criminal activity - media et al plus the ramblings of the chairman of St Johnstone. I would also say that I do not believe for one moment that the players down the years can be absolved either. They have been active participants in all this by accepting the possible 'double contracts. They are given legal advice like all of us if we seek it. There is a simple question - is this legal?

I cannot believe either that the Scottish government can sit back and allow this mess to play itself out to the betterment of Rangers. If that's the case then it shows how rotten to the core the whole system is and that the administrators are equally culpable in it too.

Mr Petrie and the board in order to save Hibernian FC from losing a swathe of its support I suggest you speak out publicly against this whole mess in unequivocal terms.




People say Rods a shrewd cookie, a tough businessman to deal with ," we couldn't do any better as STF said at our last AGM"
so with the expertise of STF in the background here's the big question as I see it.


Rangers, Celtic , Sky, SFA and the SPL keep or ditch , then its a number game how many walk away ,against a new enterprise and what that brings through the turnstiles ,the bigots tried and tested for 140 years feeding for the scraps ,or a new future .
I honestly dont know what would be the bigger crime regarding Scottish Football carrying on as is ,or The Rebels missing this opportunity to change what we watch every week .


Ask the fans Rod ,here's a starter for 10 , if it carries on as is, even with a better voting system ,Im no interested .
Its got to be without the baggage of The Old Firm the Suits and Sky

[lapsedhibee]

I wish someone would conduct a pole into non OF fans re leaving the game
Funny, I was just wishing that someone would conduct a pole into Ralph Topping's jacksie.

[ancienthibby]

People say Rods a shrewd cookie, a tough businessman to deal with ," we couldn't do any better as STF said at our last AGM"
so with the expertise of STF in the background here's the big question as I see it.


Rangers, Celtic , Sky, SFA and the SPL keep or ditch , then its a number game how many walk away ,against a new enterprise and what that brings through the turnstiles ,the bigots tried and tested for 140 years feeding for the scraps ,or a new future .
I honestly dont know what would be the bigger crime regarding Scottish Football carrying on as is ,or The Rebels missing this opportunity to change what we watch every week .


Ask the fans Rod ,here's a starter for 10 , if it carries on as is, even with a better voting system ,Im no interested .
Its got to be without the baggage of The Old Firm the Suits and Sky

Talk about vested interests!!

http://www.ralphtopping.com/about-me/

:grr:

[PaulSmith]

Sfa take £35k that was due to Rangers and use it to pay Dundee United for Scottish cup tie

[greenginger]

Talk about vested interests!!

http://www.ralphtopping.com/about-me/

:grr:

Exactly, I wonder what percentage of William Hills betting business is based on Old Firm fixtures and Rangers matches in general.

Toppings position is obviously compromised and should take no further part in Rangers situation or better still resign immediately.

[Kojock]

Mr Petrie and the board in order to save Hibernian FC from losing a swathe of its support I suggest you speak out publicly against this whole mess in unequivocal terms.

What do you want Rod to say. He can't / won't speak out about something that has not or maybe will not happen. Up till now all that is happening is the media speculating what the outcome MIGHT be , so until the Rangers situation is confirmed one way or the other Rod will stay quiet.

It is well known that Hibs / Rod won't comment until there is actually something to comment on.

[hibs0666]

What do you want Rod to say. He can't / won't speak out about something that has not or maybe will not happen. Up till now all that is happening is the media speculating what the outcome MIGHT be , so until the Rangers situation is confirmed one way or the other Rod will stay quiet.

It is well known that Hibs / Rod won't comment until there is actually something to comment on.

It seems to me that there's lots and lots that could be commented on given the various events of the last few weeks.

[hibs0666]

I don't think the huns will enjoy being known as Continuity Rangers somehow.

[greenginger]

Talk about vested interests!!

http://www.ralphtopping.com/about-me/

:grr:

Check that Ralph Topping site . There is a direct link to his William Hill E-Mail and he is asking for peoples opinions.

Well he just got mine. Feel free to follow up and let him know what football supporters think of his biased ,self interest, and how he is an embarrassment to all things Hibernian.

[Saorsa]

Exactly, I wonder what percentage of William Hills betting business is based on Old Firm fixtures and Rangers matches in general.

Toppings position is obviously compromised and should take no further part in Rangers situation or better still resign immediately.Even if he did you could put yer shirt on him being replaced by another OF stooge.

[The Falcon]

It seems to me that there's lots and lots that could be commented on given the various events of the last few weeks.


What do you think he should be commenting on?

[Hibs Class]

I don't think the huns will enjoy being known as Continuity Rangers somehow.

I think it would be shortened to Rangers Conts. Or something like that.

[Leithenhibby]

I think it would be shortened to Rangers Conts. Or something like that.


:greengrin Now that I could live with.....

[PaulSmith]

What do you want Rod to say. He can't / won't speak out about something that has not or maybe will not happen. Up till now all that is happening is the media speculating what the outcome MIGHT be , so until the Rangers situation is confirmed one way or the other Rod will stay quiet.

It is well known that Hibs / Rod won't comment until there is actually something to comment on.

Unfortunately then they lose the power to influence and are only seen as reactive.

[JeMeSouviens]

What do you want Rod to say. He can't / won't speak out about something that has not or maybe will not happen. Up till now all that is happening is the media speculating what the outcome MIGHT be , so until the Rangers situation is confirmed one way or the other Rod will stay quiet.

It is well known that Hibs / Rod won't comment until there is actually something to comment on.

I take your point, but on the other hand it's not stopping the Hun stooges Neil Doncaster, Ralph Topping, Steve Brown et al having their say and building momentum behind the NewHun railroad. Here's what I would say:

"Hibernian FC notes recent reports and press speculation regarding possible outcomes of the current administration process at Rangers. It is our hope* that they can exit administration by satisfying their creditors and agreeing a CVA, thereby taking their place in next season's SPL as normal. However, we wish to make clear our position that sporting integrity should be paramount in any potential outcome. In particular, if any club in the current SPL should undergo a liquidation event and therefore cease to exist, Hibernian will only support transfer of its SPL share to either the club finishing bottom of this season's SPL or the club finishing second in this season's SFL."


* an obviously transparent lie, but PR is PR. :wink:

[PatHead]

Up until last weekend we were in severe danger of going down. The risk is still there. If our Rod had come out demanding no relegation he would have been accused of protecting Hibs interests and not carried the same weight. The time to comment is when either Rangers go into liquidation or Hibs are mathematically safe.

Still see a 14 team SPL being in place if (Rangers) require though.

[Part/Time Supporter]

The problem Hibs have got is that (according to some sources) the decision on whether to let newco Huns in is up to the SPL board, which Hibs aren't on presently.

[Leithenhibby]

Up until last weekend we were in severe danger of going down. The risk is still there. If our Rod had come out demanding no relegation he would have been accused of protecting Hibs interests and not carried the same weight. The time to comment is when either Rangers go into liquidation or Hibs are mathematically safe.

Still see a 14 team SPL being in place if (Rangers) require though.


Got to be said, that we still have too many - "If, but's & Maybe's" for my liking.

Until everything is sorted with the Huns, RP keeps it shut. :agree:

His time will come, and by the sounds of it it will be real soon :wink:

[down-the-slope]

my hope for today is that there a total sense of being underwhelmed by D&P when they open the brown envelopes come 5pm......:greengrin

And that the 'best' offer is from one of those with a plan for liquidation :aok:

[jgl07]

The problem Hibs have got is that (according to some sources) the decision on whether to let newco Huns in is up to the SPL board, which Hibs aren't on presently.

According to SPL rules it will require an 11-1 vote to allow a Newco in.

This SPL Board stuff is wishful thinks from the Tabloids (and the SPL Board?).

[grunt]

So how is this going to work, then?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17614317?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Surely if he waits until D&P announce preferred bidder, he'll have missed his opportunity? Unless he proposes to get into bed with the preferred bidder. In which case it won't be "his" bid, will it?
Doesn't the BBC ask these obvious questions before posting stories on the website?

[Leithenhibby]

So how is this going to work, then?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17614317?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Surely if he waits until D&P announce preferred bidder, he'll have missed his opportunity? Unless he proposes to get into bed with the preferred bidder. In which case it won't be "his" bid, will it?
Doesn't the BBC ask these obvious questions before posting stories on the website?


Enough to drive you crackers :rolleyes:

"Administrators Duff & Phelps are expecting four or five final and best offers for the Scottish champions by 1700 BST."

[jgl07]

Enough to drive you crackers :rolleyes:

"Administrators Duff & Phelps are expecting four or five final and best offers for the Scottish champions by 1700 BST."

All the bidding is an exercise in futility.

Nothing is going to happen until the Big Tax Case is resolved.

[down-the-slope]

Duff & Phelps has confirmed it is investigating the consequences of liquidation and has started negotiations with the Scottish Premier League, the Scottish Football Association and Uefa in anticipation of the formation of a so-called newco Rangers, should that course of action be followed by a new prospective owner.

However, they insist liquidation would not mean the closure of the club, which would simply continue to operate as a new entity.


Well I hope those organisations are going to consult their respective members before changing rules / bending over

[Hibs Class]

So how is this going to work, then?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17614317?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Surely if he waits until D&P announce preferred bidder, he'll have missed his opportunity? Unless he proposes to get into bed with the preferred bidder. In which case it won't be "his" bid, will it?
Doesn't the BBC ask these obvious questions before posting stories on the website?


You would think that would be the case, but after the previous deadline for potential bidders had passed D&P made it clear they would continue to receive bids so it may be the same again this time around.

[down-the-slope]

remember the preffered bidder has to lodge £1 million non-refundable fee with D&P to then continue negotiations :greengrin

[HibernianBohs]

I don't really understand a lot of what is being said here,mostly due to the fact I started reading this thread at page 149 :wink:
I could only think that the Huns going bust would be a bad thing for Scottish Football as a whole, attendances would drop, Celtic would dominate?
Could someone please explain to me what is actually happening with rangers? :confused:

[Ozyhibby]

I don't really understand a lot of what is being said here,mostly due to the fact I started reading this thread at page 149 :wink:
I could only think that the Huns going bust would be a bad thing for Scottish Football as a whole, attendances would drop, Celtic would dominate?
Could someone please explain to me what is actually happening with rangers? :confused:

They're Donald ducked.

[ancienthibby]

remember the preffered bidder has to lodge £1 million non-refundable fee with D&P to then continue negotiations :greengrin

Mr Slopey, it will all be done with a nod and a wink from Duffest and Duffest - to the winner go the spoils, or in this case, the remnants!:cb

[HibernianBohs]

They're Donald ducked.
Thanks mate :aok:

[greenginger]

I was having a look at whats been happening with Rangers parent company, the Rangers FC Group Ltd aka. Wavetower.

Last week they transferred all property fixed charges, assets, goodwill and anything to become due to Liberty Corporate Ltd.

A strange move for Whyte to make if he intends to Walk Away and hand over his shares. :confused:

[PatHead]

I don't really understand a lot of what is being said here,mostly due to the fact I started reading this thread at page 149 :wink:
I could only think that the Huns going bust would be a bad thing for Scottish Football as a whole, attendances would drop, Celtic would dominate?
Could someone please explain to me what is actually happening with rangers? :confused:

Hopefully you aren't fishing and I'm diving right in.

I think that whilst some clubs will lose out finacially and the Sky TV deal would be under threat the general feeling on here is that the integrity of the game is under threat. This would be because

a) Rangers have effectively been cheating and would get off Scot Free. Why should they be allowed to stay in a league when Dunfermline or Hibs get relegated for playing the game with players they could afford and Hearts don't get the transfer fee they are due for Wallace? and
b) Sky would be dictating who could be in the SPL due to their need for 4 Old Firm games a season meaning the whole game doesn't have any credibility. (BTW Don't know what would happen if either Rangers or Celtic finished in bottom 6.)

If Rangers did get demoted to the bottom league they could make all the teams in the lower league financially secure for 10 years through the travelling support they would take and the novelty factor of having them in town. Surely that isn't bad for all of Scottish football.

Whilst they were paying their punishment this would give the other clubs the opportunity to vote in a new division of any tv money, prize money and get rid of the ridiculous need for an 11 to 1 majority for change which means the Bigot Brothers will no longer hold all the cards. (Currently top 2 get over 33% of any tv or prize money making the league even more uncompetitive). In the long term most of the other clubs will benefit. Rangers would be back in ,hopefully a more competitive SPL, in 3 years.

What no-one outwith the Old Firm or Glasgow press seem to forget is that there are 10 other clubs in the SPL who combined are more important than those two.

(I haven't covered everything but you can't summarise 149 pages in 149 words)

[HibernianBohs]

Hopefully you aren't fishing and I'm diving right in.

I think that whilst some clubs will lose out financially and the Sky TV deal would be under threat the general feeling on here is that the integrity of the game is under threat. This would be because

a) Rangers have effectively been cheating and would get off Scot Free. Why should they be allowed to stay in a league when Dunfermline or Hibs get relegated for playing the game with players they could afford and Hearts don't get the transfer fee they are due for Wallace? and
b) Sky would be dictating who could be in the SPL due to their need for 4 Old Firm games a season meaning the whole game doesn't have any credibility. (BTW Don't know what would happen if either Rangers or Celtic finished in bottom 6.)

If Rangers did get demoted to the bottom league they could make all the teams in the lower league financially secure for 10 years through the travelling support they would take and the novelty factor of having them in town. Surely that isn't bad for all of Scottish football.

Whilst they were paying their punishment this would give the other clubs the opportunity to vote in a new division of any tv money, prize money and get rid of the ridiculous need for an 11 to 1 majority for change which means the Bigot Brothers will no longer hold all the cards. (Currently top 2 get over 33% of any tv or prize money making the league even more uncompetitive). In the long term most of the other clubs will benefit. Rangers would be back in ,hopefully a more competitive SPL, in 3 years.

What no-one outwith the Old Firm or Glasgow press seem to forget is that there are 10 other clubs in the SPL who combined are more important than those two.

(I haven't covered everything but you can't summarise 149 pages in 149 words)
You managed to get everything that I was unsure about in there :top marks
Thanks mate, I understand you and agree with you now:thumbsup:

[Golden Bear]

There is still ten minutes to submit a bid on behalf of Hibs Net. Chances like this are not to be missed.

:lolrangers:

[Haymaker]

There is still ten minutes to submit a bid on behalf of Hibs Net. Chances like this are not to be missed.

:lolrangers:


:greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

Right, deadline passed. Where are we?

[Haymaker]

Right, deadline passed. Where are we?

What happens if no one bid?

[1875godsgift]

What happens if no one bid?Stick 'em on ebay?

[Brando7]

As far as i can see there 2 main bidders

1. Blue knight so are bidding for the good of the club
2. Club 9 sports so are bidding more money

Administrator Duff & Phelps are there to get the best deal to pay of the creditors are they not? so it a no brainer for me really

Ranger FC are a business so should be treated like so

[At The Edge]

Right, deadline passed. Where are we?

they'll probably 'extend' the deadline......
hopefully no one has bid and they'll go pop or that American mob have bid and they'll make RFC go pop
:thumbsup:

[HFC 0-7]

Right, deadline passed. Where are we?

Well judging by whats been happening, they will issue another deadline for final, final bids.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Fudd & Phelps are saying they've had four bids - The Blue Knights, an American bid, a Singapore bid and a German bid (Huns :greengrin)

[ancient hibee]

So that's the numpties with no dosh and three foreign companies who have read "How to make money from Scottish football" author V.Romanov.

[down-the-slope]

So thats Blue Nuns..and 3 overseas bidders that have not stuck their head above parapit yet....

Nuns will want a CVA...Guessing other 3 want Liquidation.....

Wonder if any of the 3 overseas bidders have seen highlights of the clubs great moments...such as against Manchesters Police service...:rolleyes:

Blue Nuns will need Whytes 85% and he won't sell that without a big wedge..and they will struggle with CVA..and thats before BTC outcome....:greengrin

The farce continues....As long as Platini / UEFA tell them to ram it...its all good..If they get liquidated its 3 years where there is at the very least a Champs league spot up for grabs

[Part/Time Supporter]

So thats Blue Nuns..and 3 overseas bidders that have not stuck their head above parapit yet....

Nuns will want a CVA...Guessing other 3 want Liquidation.....

Wonder if any of the 3 overseas bidders have seen highlights of the clubs great moments...such as against Manchesters Police service...:rolleyes:

Blue Nuns will need Whytes 85% and he won't sell that without a big wedge..and they will struggle with CVA..and thats before BTC outcome....:greengrin

The farce continues....As long as Platini / UEFA tell them to ram it...its all good..If they get liquidated its 3 years where there is at the very least a Champs league spot up for grabs

Assuming Celtc don't keel over, there won't be. The co-efficient has fallen to the point where there will be only one CL place. That will take effect the season after next. It's only next season that the second CL place will be available, unless the European results improve dramatically (unlikely).

[Hibrandenburg]

Fudd & Phelps are saying they've had four bids - The Blue Knights, an American bid, a Singapore bid and a German bid (Huns :greengrin)

That last one was me. They'll have found a Bratwurst and some cyanide capsules in my envelope. About 50000 of them.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The American bid is surely the Club 9 Sports mob who put Tranmere Rovers on e-bay. Asset strippers who see a killing via liquidation. It will be interesting to find out who the Singapore and German groups are, what their plans are and what's in it for them. The Germans will probably be a neo-Nazi group who have fallen in love with the cuddly Teddy Bears' rioting and 'red hand' salutes. Expect an annual pre-season friendly in Nuremberg with lots of 'we are the people' type singing.

[Spike Mandela]

Alex Thomson tweeting a lot about Alex Salmond phoning HMRC and discussing RFC information only obtained using freedom of information. Holyrood refusing to discuss what was said as 'it would prejudice relations between London/Edin govts' hmmmmmm.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Alex Thomson tweeting a lot about Alex Salmond phoning HMRC and discussing RFC information only obtained using freedom of information. Holyrood refusing to discuss what was said as 'it would prejudice relations between London/Edin govts' hmmmmmm.

Salmond said that he had been in meetings with HMRC asking them to do a deal at the same time he said that Celtic couldn't prosper without Rangers. The (Scottish) media focused on the second part.

[Dashing Bob S]

Salmond said that he had been in meetings with HMRC asking them to do a deal at the same time he said that Celtic couldn't prosper without Rangers. The (Scottish) media focused on the second part.

Every time I start to tolerate Salmond, he makes a proper *rse of himself by trying to save vile, spoiled, selfish, mismanaged, fascist footballing organizations.

Leave well alone, Eck.

[grunt]

Salmond said that he had been in meetings with HMRC asking them to do a deal ...So is this our First Minister actively supporting the non-payment of PAYE/NI and VAT, and the avoidance of tax on EBTs and associated penalties?

[marinello59]

So is this our First Minister actively supporting the non-payment of PAYE/NI and VAT, and the avoidance of tax on EBTs and associated penalties?

I wouldn't be surprised if he was. He has nothing to lose by letting the Westminster coffers take a hit and there are votes to be gained.

[Hibrandenburg]

I wouldn't be surprised if he was. He has nothing to lose by letting the Westminster coffers take a hit and there are votes to be gained.

And lost.

[Keith_M]

So is this our First Minister actively supporting the non-payment of PAYE/NI and VAT, and the avoidance of tax on EBTs and associated penalties?


He probably sees this as an opportunity to win over some of the Unionist vote. He's a politcian, I'm surprised anybody expects anything better.

[Keith_M]

And lost.

are you not at work either, ya lazy b*gger?



:greengrin

[Part/Time Supporter]

So is this our First Minister actively supporting the non-payment of PAYE/NI and VAT, and the avoidance of tax on EBTs and associated penalties?

The meeting would have been before everyone became aware that Rangers had dodged their monthly contributions under Whyte. The EBT issue is still contested.

[marinello59]

And lost.

True. But love him or loathe the smug Yam loving tumshie heided git* he is one of the smartest polical operators around. He will know if he faces a net gain or loss of votes.

* I won't say which camp I fall in to. :greengrin

[Part/Time Supporter]

True. But love him or loathe the smug Yam loving tumshie heided git* he is one of the smartest polical operators around. He will know if he faces a net gain or loss of votes.

* I won't say which camp I fall in to. :greengrin

Hence why he has gone quiet on the issue since the full scale of Whyte's mismanagement has become plain to see. The state can't do deals with businesses that treat their ongoing contributions as an optional extra. The EBT issue is more open to negotiation because of its complexity. HMRC previously did an EBT deal with Arsenal, who (unlike Rangers) had enough free cashflow to satisfy them.

(source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/sep/09/newsstory.sport9)

[Hibrandenburg]

are you not at work either, ya lazy b*gger?



:greengrin
Cheeky ****er! I'll have you know I'm sat at home by the phone waiting to spring into action in the name of the proletariat should my capitalist pig of an employer seek to oppress them.

;-)

[Keith_M]

Cheeky ****er! I'll have you know I'm sat at home by the phone waiting to spring into action in the name of the proletariat should my capitalist pig of an employer seek to oppress them.

;-)


Fair enough.


I'm taking a sickie, so not as impressive as your excuse. http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/greengrin2.gif


In the words of Winston from Still Game, "Arse oan the Pan, Hied ower the sink, baith ends gaun full tilt".

Too much detail perhaps? :dunno:

[Hibrandenburg]

Fair enough.


I'm taking a sickie, so not as impressive as your excuse. http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/greengrin2.gif


In the words of Winston from Still Game, "Arse oan the Pan, Hied ower the sink, baith ends gaun full tilt".

Too much detail perhaps? :dunno:

Arrrgh, Kopfkino! Gute Besserung :-)

[Keith_M]

Arrrgh, Kopfkino! Gute Besserung :-)


Vielen Dank :wink:

[StevieC]

The EBT issue is more open to negotiation because of its complexity. HMRC previously did an EBT deal with Arsenal, who (unlike Rangers) had enough free cashflow to satisfy them.

(source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2005/sep/09/newsstory.sport9)

I never clicked the link, but from seeing this previously I kinda got the impression that HMRC were happy to take a reduced lump sum rather than take an untested case through the courts.

In the case of Rangers though it seems that they have opted to finally use this as the test case which will set the precedence for all future EBT claims.

[grunt]

The meeting would have been before everyone became aware that Rangers had dodged their monthly contributions under Whyte. The EBT issue is still contested.Good points, both.

[Part/Time Supporter]

I never clicked the link, but from seeing this previously I kinda got the impression that HMRC were happy to take a reduced lump sum rather than take an untested case through the courts.

In the case of Rangers though it seems that they have opted to finally use this as the test case which will set the precedence for all future EBT claims.

I think the precedent idea with EBTs is a myth, because no two organisations will have operated their schemes in exactly the same way. If Rangers had operated their scheme appropriately, there wouldn't be a tribunal. HMRC are trying to claw back the amount of PAYE they think should have been due on certain payments. It's a substantial amount (tens of millions), which Rangers can't afford. That's all.

[Peevemor]

I think the precedent idea with EBTs is a myth, because no two organisations will have operated their schemes in exactly the same way. If Rangers had operated their scheme appropriately, there wouldn't be a tribunal. HMRC are trying to claw back the amount of PAYE they think should have been due on certain payments. It's a substantial amount (tens of millions), which Rangers can't afford. That's all.

From what I gather, if there is paperwork/contracts guaranteeing people payments from the EBT (as opposed to discretionary open-ended loans) then the huns are goosed.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think the precedent idea with EBTs is a myth, because no two organisations will have operated their schemes in exactly the same way. If Rangers had operated their scheme appropriately, there wouldn't be a tribunal. HMRC are trying to claw back the amount of PAYE they think should have been due on certain payments. It's a substantial amount (tens of millions), which Rangers can't afford. That's all.

The Arsenal case is a red (with fetching white sleeves) herring I think. Arsenal made provision to pay backdated tax to HMRC based on EBT related rulings versus other companies. In particular this one I think: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/practitioners/macdonald-v-dextra.htm

The Hun case stretches back to 2001, HMRC reckon they underpaid by £24M. With interest and penalties this is likely to be north of £50M now.

[ScottB]

I want HMRC to do a deal and so should we all!

If they don't, Rangers liquidate, HMRC get squat and Rangers return as a newco.

If HMRC do a deal, say £5million a year back over a decade, the taxpayer is reimbursed and Rangers weakened for a long time.


I know which one I'm routing for.

[green glory]

I want HMRC to do a deal and so should we all!

If they don't, Rangers liquidate, HMRC get squat and Rangers return as a newco.

If HMRC do a deal, say £5million a year back over a decade, the taxpayer is reimbursed and Rangers weakened for a long time.

I know which one I'm routing for.

Complete extinction is my preference. May they burn in hell.

[dangermouse]

I want HMRC to do a deal and so should we all!

If they don't, Rangers liquidate, HMRC get squat and Rangers return as a newco.

If HMRC do a deal, say £5million a year back over a decade, the taxpayer is reimbursed and Rangers weakened for a long time.

I know which one I'm routing for.


Nice idea but then nothing can be done about the SPL voting structure


Complete extinction is my preference. May they burn in hell.

Best option, Ross County become the 12th member and join with the other 10 for an 11-1 vote in favour of changing the status quo. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Rangers liquidate, HMRC get squat and Rangers return as a newco.


Another popular media myth.

HMRC get whatever can be realised from selling the Huns' assets (after CW gets his secured mitts up to the level of whatever debt he can legally make stick).

[jgl07]

He probably sees this as an opportunity to win over some of the Unionist vote. He's a politcian, I'm surprised anybody expects anything better.

That will certainly win over the union flag waving, Rule Brittania singing hoards to the 'Independence' platform.

[Green Man]

Chris McLaughlin just put a couple of tweets out:


#Rangers administrators confirm HMRC bill could be £75m

#Rangers owe £55m to unsecured creditors. Looks like final creditors bill could be as high as £135m.

[blackpoolhibs]

Chris McLaughlin just put a couple of tweets out:

Thats terrible news if true. :faf:

[Green Man]

And another one:


#Rangers bill for administrators so far is £1.2m.

Keep up the good work D&P :greengrin

[Andy74]

Send her victorious....!

Mon the HMRC!

[StevieC]

I want HMRC to do a deal and so should we all!
If they don't, Rangers liquidate, HMRC get squat and Rangers return as a newco.
If HMRC do a deal, say £5million a year back over a decade, the taxpayer is reimbursed and Rangers weakened for a long time.

If "the deal" involved paying the full amount back over time then yes it would benefit everyone.

The problem is that "the deal" being pushed is not one for repayment in full but a full repayment of a minimal amount, ie only paying 5% of total owed.

It's this that the Blue Knights are basing their business plan around. If they are forced to pay the full amount, even over time, they will take the liquidation route.

[robinp]

The proposal document has been on the website since early afternoon. Makes interesting reading!

[WindyMiller]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17628749

http://www.rangers.co.uk/staticFiles/fe/a8/0,,5~174334,00.pdf

http://www.rangers.co.uk/AdministratorsInformation

[StevieC]

The proposal document has been on the website since early afternoon. Makes interesting reading!

Which website? Where?

[robinp]

Which website? Where?

See Windy Millers post above, it's on the Rangers site but hidden away!

[Spike Mandela]

These debt figures being quoted are absolutely staggering. The £3m or so owed in footballing debts is chicken feed compared to the rest of it. They are Scotland's disgrace.

[The_Exile]

That's a sare yin, 143 mil in debt? Makes oor pink pals across the toon look minted. Who in their right mind would want to take that lot over? They are screwed, clearly.

[WindyMiller]

These debt figures being quoted are absolutely staggering. The £3m or so owed in footballing debts is chicken feed compared to the rest of it. They are Scotland's disgrace.


It's the football debts that will interest Uefa though.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/rangers/302780-rangers-owe-over-33m-to-football-clubs/

[Peevemor]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17628749

http://www.rangers.co.uk/staticFiles/fe/a8/0,,5~174334,00.pdf (http://www.rangers.co.uk/staticFiles/fe/a8/0,,5%7E174334,00.pdf)

http://www.rangers.co.uk/AdministratorsInformation

That's some list of Creditors (p48-50).

Yams £800k :thumbsup:

[Saorsa]

It's the football debts that will interest Uefa though.and hopefully they'll get involved with that and if the stickies are found tae have been fielding ineligible players, as there is absolutely nae will on the part of the fitba authorities in this country tae dae the right thing. When it comes tae the OF they'll dae everything they an tae let them wriggle off the hook.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Rangers total income since going into administration: £1.0M

Duff & Phelps time costs for Rangers work: £1.2M

What is wrong with this picture?

[WindyMiller]

That's some list of Creditors (p48-50).

Yams £800k :thumbsup:


Gives one a warm fuzzy glow.

:smug:

[jgl07]

I want HMRC to do a deal and so should we all!

If they don't, Rangers liquidate, HMRC get squat and Rangers return as a newco.

If HMRC do a deal, say £5million a year back over a decade, the taxpayer is reimbursed and Rangers weakened for a long time.


This all explains why liquidation is the only option.

Rangers cannot live within their means even when they spend next to nothing.

How the hell are then going to be able to pay HMRC an extra £5 million a year (on top of the current tax liabilities which they have not been paying)?

Rangers will not pull in 45,000 for each home match with a team built on a Motherwell/Dundee United type budget. We saw that in the early 1980s when Rangers often had crowds below 10,000.

Then Ticketus will be wanting their cash back.

Rangers turnover without a significant Champions' League run is around £40 million and their wage bill around £30 million. There is no way they could run carry that sort of liability to HMRC let alone Ticketus.

Liquidation is inevitable. Paul Murry (and Ticketus?) are the only ones who appear not to have realized this.

[ancienthibby]

These debt figures being quoted are absolutely staggering. The £3m or so owed in footballing debts is chicken feed compared to the rest of it. They are Scotland's disgrace.

I struggle to find these massive figures believable.

The key matter is the level of wages paid through EBT, so avoiding HMRC PAYE and NIC contributions. So to get to the quoted number, then RFC UNDER SDM MUST HAVE BEEN PAYING MASSIVE UNDISCLOSED WAGES FOR YEARS AND YEARS,

If that is so, then he will be just DM and in court awaiting judgment!:cb

[ScottB]

Apparently they never coughed up the money they collected for the Poppy Appeal.

Shameful, especially considering the stink they kicked up about Celtic at the time...

[cabbageandribs1875]

£134 million squid :shocked::shocked::shocked: fer the luv o ****




DIRTY CHEATING BUNS

[WindyMiller]

and hopefully they'll get involved with that and if the stickies are found tae have been fielding ineligible players, as there is absolutely nae will on the part of the fitba authorities in the country tae dae the right thing. When it comes tae the OF they'll dae everything they an tae let them wriggle off the hook.


It may well be the £1m due to Rapid Vienna that makes Uefa take notice.

[SteveHFC]

£134 million squid :shocked::shocked::shocked: fer the luv o ****




DIRTY CHEATING BUNS

Good Let's hope they go bust :aok:

[SteveHFC]

Public bodies The largest estimated amount is to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC).
Debenture owners - fans who loaned money to the club - are owed £7.7m
And taxpayer-funded bodies also owed money include: Strathclyde Police (£51,882), Scottish Ambulance Service (£8,438), Culture and Sport Glasgow (£10,338), Glasgow City Council (£7,000), Argyll and Bute Council (£406), and Edinburgh City Council (£90).
The report also reveals that Rangers owe more than £2.3m to 12 football clubs in Scotland, England and throughout Europe.
Domestically, Rangers owe: Hearts (£800,000), Dunfermline Athletic (£83,370), Dundee United (£65,981), Celtic (£40,337) and Inverness Caledonian Thistle (£39,805).
English clubs are also owed more than £700,000. This breaks down as: Manchester City (£328,248), Chelsea (£238,345) and Arsenal (£136,560).
European clubs are also owed more than £1.6m, including Rapid Vienna (£1,011,763), St Etienne (£252,212), Palermo (£205,513) and Orebro (£150,000).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17628749

They're ****ed :lolrangers:

[Jack]

and hopefully they'll get involved with that and if the stickies are found tae have been fielding ineligible players, as there is absolutely nae will on the part of the fitba authorities in this country tae dae the right thing. When it comes tae the OF they'll dae everything they an tae let them wriggle off the hook.

The Swiss FA went as far as taking UEFA to court to try and save Sion. The Swiss FA lost, the precident was set. The SFA would lose too :-)

[StevieC]

Rangers total income since going into administration: £1.0M

Duff & Phelps time costs for Rangers work: £1.2M

What is wrong with this picture?

The thing that jumped out at me .. Duff & Phelps time - £400 an hour!!!

I'm in the wrong business.

[Leithenhibby]

The thing that jumped out at me .. Duff & Phelps time - £400 an hour!!!

I'm in the wrong business.

£400 an hour aside, how sweet would it be to put the lights out for the last time ... :greengrin

The plot thickens by the second, very enjoyable :wink:

[Prof. Shaggy]

The thing that jumped out at me .. Duff & Phelps time - £400 an hour!!!

I'm in the wrong business.

I'd do their job for free.

[ancienthibby]

Public bodies The largest estimated amount is to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC).
Debenture owners - fans who loaned money to the club - are owed £7.7m
And taxpayer-funded bodies also owed money include: Strathclyde Police (£51,882), Scottish Ambulance Service (£8,438), Culture and Sport Glasgow (£10,338), Glasgow City Council (£7,000), Argyll and Bute Council (£406), and Edinburgh City Council (£90).
The report also reveals that Rangers owe more than £2.3m to 12 football clubs in Scotland, England and throughout Europe.
Domestically, Rangers owe: Hearts (£800,000), Dunfermline Athletic (£83,370), Dundee United (£65,981), Celtic (£40,337) and Inverness Caledonian Thistle (£39,805).
English clubs are also owed more than £700,000. This breaks down as: Manchester City (£328,248), Chelsea (£238,345) and Arsenal (£136,560).
European clubs are also owed more than £1.6m, including Rapid Vienna (£1,011,763), St Etienne (£252,212), Palermo (£205,513) and Orebro (£150,000).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17628749

They're ****ed :lolrangers:


The really staggering sums are the monies owed to players in their own business.

For this alone, they should be relegated to the third division for no less than ten years!!:agree:

All the clubs owed monies by RFC should have the RFC players' contracts cancelled and the players returned to their original clubs!

[Part/Time Supporter]

The thing that jumped out at me .. Duff & Phelps time - £400 an hour!!!

I'm in the wrong business.

The partner rates (~£500 ph) for a London firm aren't surprising. £300 ph for seniors (trained staff) is.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

And so supposedly to liquidation ?
Does t this make the debts involved irrelevant (football authorities ahem aside?)

Is it a case of Blue Knights in particular the King-makers and Kennedy the unnecessary goodwill that will never be put to the test (but curry favours a-plenty) ?

[hibs0666]

So it would appear that the huns need to wrap £134 million into the CVA to avoid liquidation. The best-possible bid seems to be coming in at around £20 million, making an offer to creditors of around 10p in the pound possible.

Surely creditors will be better-served by liquidating the club and selling off the assets??

[JeMeSouviens]

Debenture owners - fans who loaned money to the club - are owed £7.7m


Happy days in the club deck then. They might want to think about putting a net up there. :wink:

[Dan Sarf]

Shouldn't we be having a celebration party or something?

[Kojock]

That's some list of Creditors (p48-50).

Yams £800k :thumbsup:

Had a look through it and the list is incredible, they owe money for Gas, Electricity, Telephone they even owe £567 to the local newsagent shop.

They owe the Police, Ambulance, G4S, Glasgow City Council (Council Tax) etc, how on earth are they still allowed to continue. If that were you and I we would have been dead and buried a long time ago.

I know being a member of the Lodge has some advantages but this is taking the P155

[Onion]

Happy days in the club deck then. They might want to think about putting a net up there. :wink:

What possesses ANY company to run up £134m in debts just to win a few football trophies in Scotland :confused: Utter madness :rolleyes:

[Mon Dieu4]

If they owe that much to the police and ambulance services then how the hell are they still allowed to hold games at ibrox, surely the strayhclyde force should be refusing to police games until they are paid, can't see this happening anywhere else or in any other sector, it stinks