Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[PatHead]

Funny how the English press can see what is happening without Rangers coloured glasses. They state the honourable thing to happen. I do however wonder if they would be quite so honourable if this was one of the big English clubs such as Chelsea/Man Utd/ Arsenal.

Yesterday's Guardian had a great article which included references to Warrington/Cheshire's survey.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/apr/30/scottish-football-needs-rangers?newsfeed=true

[cabbageandribs1875]

Ralph topping has apparently resigned from the SFA


SPL chairman Ralph Topping has resigned his SFA board commitments due to pressure of work. The 60-year-old, who is chief executive of bookmakers William Hill, will continue in his non-executive role with the SPL which he has held since 2009.

[EuanH78]

The frustrating thing for me is that the 'right' thing to do is clear and obvious, and the legal mechanism for doing it is already in place. It just needs leadership, competence and sheer guts to carry it out and the SPL as a body is showing that it has none of those things. I agree that they and the SFA are in a difficult position, but that's how they earn their corn and if they find it impossible they must indeed make way for UEFA to make the decision. The feeling right now is that the whole thing is being engineered towards RFC escaping the consequences of their actions while the other clubs suffer purely because RFC are making all the noise.

If Scottish football is really as dependent on a strong Rangers as many would have us believe then Scottish football is in a very bad way. Now is a perfect time to start changing that but as always, the powers that be seem to be intent on pepetuating the illness. Whether that is through cowardice or corruption is up for debate but the wrong decisions now could make the illness terminal. Like many others on this and other non-OF forums I believe that the game would actually benefit rather than suffer from a weakened Rangers at least in the long term but whether I'm right or wrong is irrelevant, they MUST act without fear or favour (to quote Mr Regan).

I just sent this email to the SFA, SPL and any club email address's I could find (funnily enough the SPL one bounced :greengrin - anyone got a contact address) I'm taking the claim for Toppings resignation :greengrin

Dear Sir/ Madam,

Hopefully this email will find itself to the most appropriate person from each of the address's listed above.

I, for my troubles am a lifelong Hibs supporter. My Father, originally from London came to study in Edinburgh and became a Hibs supporter and season ticket holder for nearly 45 years until his death. In my time, I have seen Hibs win two league cups. I can proudly say I was present at both occasions with him. I have never expected Hibs to consistently challenge for honours every season, I am aware that the financial gulf between Rangers and Celtic and the rest would make this an unrealistic expectation, I do, however continue to support my club as many other fans of other clubs choose to do so.

Recently, Rangers have went into administration - despite all the talk of new ownership etc.. it seems likely to those who can see things with some clarity that liquidation and NewCo would be the most obvious solution (no pun intended) to this clubs crisis.

This is the reason I write to you all now. You may have noticed that the board of Hibs is not listed as part of this email. I have already had correspondence from them in the first instance and would be re-treading old ground with them to include them again.

I was young, but aware what was happening to Hibs circa 1989 when we almost went out of existence. I am aware that Sir Tom Farmer is not a 'football' man and what his reasons for saving Hibs at that time were. I can see that he has ensured Hibs are there for generations to come. In this time I have watched our best talent leave so that we could 'balance' the books. I have heard Rod Petrie saying we can spend 1 penny less than we earn. I have also seen the complete redevelopement of Easter Road and the fruition of a training complex come to pass. Of these achievements I take great pride in the club I support. At times though I wish the product on the park was better, that we would have been able pay more in wages to keep our best players but some things cannot be and such is the path the board of Hibs has chosen to follow.

It is with great dismay I read and hear even the option that a liquidated club could somehow be 'parachuted' back into the top flight. I ask, what would be the point of following Scottish football if there are rules for some and rules for others? Football is a sport first and a business second. I direct you to UEFA's own financial fair play values number 1 of 11 quoted

"In everything that we do, football must always be the first and most important element that we take into consideration. Football is a game before being a product, a sport before being a market, a show before being a business. (http://www.uefa.com/uefa/elevenvalues/index.html)"

I have watched the painful times with Hibs to abide by this very value before it was even mooted at UEFA level. Why then, are there even questions to be asked at this point about a club that in this tax year has negated to pay its tax liabilities that exceed the turnover of all but one other of the member clubs of the SPL just for starters?

Big Tax case as yet unruled upon. Double contract issues? I would assume that if double contracts are proven then the players involved were illegally registered with the SFA and illegitimately fielded - I would think this counts as cheating against every club that played against a player with a 'double contract'- Think about this in greater detail for a moment, players who may have had one chance in their career at a cup final winners medal, cheated. Clubs cheated out of league positions, revenue, honours, are more examples required?

This is a greater deal than simply a club being liquidated, this has been outright financial cheating for over a decade - Rangers, part of the fabric that makes up the SPL tv and sponsorship deals may very well be a fact, and money coming into Scottish football may very well be reduced, however given that Rangers financial doping created part of the product i.e. Sky's requirement for 4 Old Firm games a season. Does it not strike anyone as more than slightly incestous that this requirement for a product that has been borne out of illegal activities from a club should be of such high regard?

Sporting integrity cannot be bought. It can, however be sold. A recent fans survey showed the opinion of the fans - they are, in case you forget the life blood of all clubs. All I can do is state my case, I do not feel I would be able to support Scottish football anymore if our league has been 'rigged' and mismanagement of one club allowed to be 'whitewashed' because of their potential value.

In sport, I ask you all to consider carefully the choices you will make, this I feel is a seminal moment in Scottish football and implore you all to make the 'right' decisions.

Regards,

[calmac12000]

IF a newco are admitted into the SPL i wont be back to another game and will find something else to do with my time and money! I wont support a club that participates in a league with no integrity. What is the point in that?

I love hibs with my heart and soul but i wont kid myself on by watching them compete in a league that is only there to serve the old firm.

Couldn't agree more, the entire concept of Scottish Football will be shown to have been predicated on a myth of fair play and sporting integrity. Furthermore what would a decision of this sort do for the financial reputation of football. if I was a small business I would not exactly be falling over myself to trade with a foootball club.

[Geo_1875]

I just sent this email to the SFA, SPL and any club email address's I could find (funnily enough the SPL one bounced :greengrin - anyone got a contact address) I'm taking the claim for Toppings resignation :greengrin

Dear Sir/ Madam,

Hopefully this email will find itself to the most appropriate person from each of the address's listed above.

I, for my troubles am a lifelong Hibs supporter. My Father, originally from London came to study in Edinburgh and became a Hibs supporter and season ticket holder for nearly 45 years until his death. In my time, I have seen Hibs win two league cups. I can proudly say I was present at both occasions with him. I have never expected Hibs to consistently challenge for honours every season, I am aware that the financial gulf between Rangers and Celtic and the rest would make this an unrealistic expectation, I do, however continue to support my club as many other fans of other clubs choose to do so.

Recently, Rangers have went into administration - despite all the talk of new ownership etc.. it seems likely to those who can see things with some clarity that liquidation and NewCo would be the most obvious solution (no pun intended) to this clubs crisis.

This is the reason I write to you all now. You may have noticed that the board of Hibs is not listed as part of this email. I have already had correspondence from them in the first instance and would be re-treading old ground with them to include them again.

I was young, but aware what was happening to Hibs circa 1989 when we almost went out of existence. I am aware that Sir Tom Farmer is not a 'football' man and what his reasons for saving Hibs at that time were. I can see that he has ensured Hibs are there for generations to come. In this time I have watched our best talent leave so that we could 'balance' the books. I have heard Rod Petrie saying we can spend 1 penny less than we earn. I have also seen the complete redevelopement of Easter Road and the fruition of a training complex come to pass. Of these achievements I take great pride in the club I support. At times though I wish the product on the park was better, that we would have been able pay more in wages to keep our best players but some things cannot be and such is the path the board of Hibs has chosen to follow.

It is with great dismay I read and hear even the option that a liquidated club could somehow be 'parachuted' back into the top flight. I ask, what would be the point of following Scottish football if there are rules for some and rules for others? Football is a sport first and a business second. I direct you to UEFA's own financial fair play values number 1 of 11 quoted

"In everything that we do, football must always be the first and most important element that we take into consideration. Football is a game before being a product, a sport before being a market, a show before being a business. (http://www.uefa.com/uefa/elevenvalues/index.html)"

I have watched the painful times with Hibs to abide by this very value before it was even mooted at UEFA level. Why then, are there even questions to be asked at this point about a club that in this tax year has negated to pay its tax liabilities that exceed the turnover of all but one other of the member clubs of the SPL just for starters?

Big Tax case as yet unruled upon. Double contract issues? I would assume that if double contracts are proven then the players involved were illegally registered with the SFA and illegitimately fielded - I would think this counts as cheating against every club that played against a player with a 'double contract'- Think about this in greater detail for a moment, players who may have had one chance in their career at a cup final winners medal, cheated. Clubs cheated out of league positions, revenue, honours, are more examples required?

This is a greater deal than simply a club being liquidated, this has been outright financial cheating for over a decade - Rangers, part of the fabric that makes up the SPL tv and sponsorship deals may very well be a fact, and money coming into Scottish football may very well be reduced, however given that Rangers financial doping created part of the product i.e. Sky's requirement for 4 Old Firm games a season. Does it not strike anyone as more than slightly incestous that this requirement for a product that has been borne out of illegal activities from a club should be of such high regard?

Sporting integrity cannot be bought. It can, however be sold. A recent fans survey showed the opinion of the fans - they are, in case you forget the life blood of all clubs. All I can do is state my case, I do not feel I would be able to support Scottish football anymore if our league has been 'rigged' and mismanagement of one club allowed to be 'whitewashed' because of their potential value.

In sport, I ask you all to consider carefully the choices you will make, this I feel is a seminal moment in Scottish football and implore you all to make the 'right' decisions.

Regards,

I considered sending something similar but decided upon the slightly shorter:

They've cheated for years, get ****ing rid.

[EuanH78]

I considered sending something similar but decided upon the slightly shorter:

They've cheated for years, get ****ing rid.

Yip, thats the jist of it :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

Ralph topping has apparently resigned from the SFA


SPL chairman Ralph Topping has resigned his SFA board commitments due to pressure of work. The 60-year-old, who is chief executive of bookmakers William Hill, will continue in his non-executive role with the SPL which he has held since 2009.

Pressure of work.....

http://www.toppingandbutch.com/

[down the slope]

Super Ally thinks the preferred bidder will be a Newco !.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17907977

[CropleyWasGod]

Super Ally thinks the preferred bidder will be a Newco !.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17907977

But of course it will be a new company. :confused:

SuperA is showing his ignorance there, I think.

[JeMeSouviens]

Just had a quick dig into the examples cited by Doncaster: Plymouth Argyle and Crystal Palace. Both clubs exited administration via a successful CVA. So wtf is Doncaster on about? Is he just flat out, barefaced lying?

[Saorsa]

Just had a quick dig into the examples cited by Doncaster: Plymouth Argyle and Crystal Palace. Both clubs exited administration via a successful CVA. So wtf is Doncaster on about? Is he just flat out, barefaced lying?I'd have nae difficulty believing that.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b168/jamie1971/huncaster.jpg

[PatHead]

Super Ally thinks the preferred bidder will be a Newco !.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17907977

Love how the Fat One states that Rangers will need to decide whether they carry on in the SPL with sanctions or go down to the 3rd Division. Arrogance beyond belief.

[JimBHibees]

I just sent this email to the SFA, SPL and any club email address's I could find (funnily enough the SPL one bounced :greengrin - anyone got a contact address) I'm taking the claim for Toppings resignation :greengrin

Dear Sir/ Madam,

Hopefully this email will find itself to the most appropriate person from each of the address's listed above.

I, for my troubles am a lifelong Hibs supporter. My Father, originally from London came to study in Edinburgh and became a Hibs supporter and season ticket holder for nearly 45 years until his death. In my time, I have seen Hibs win two league cups. I can proudly say I was present at both occasions with him. I have never expected Hibs to consistently challenge for honours every season, I am aware that the financial gulf between Rangers and Celtic and the rest would make this an unrealistic expectation, I do, however continue to support my club as many other fans of other clubs choose to do so.

Recently, Rangers have went into administration - despite all the talk of new ownership etc.. it seems likely to those who can see things with some clarity that liquidation and NewCo would be the most obvious solution (no pun intended) to this clubs crisis.

This is the reason I write to you all now. You may have noticed that the board of Hibs is not listed as part of this email. I have already had correspondence from them in the first instance and would be re-treading old ground with them to include them again.

I was young, but aware what was happening to Hibs circa 1989 when we almost went out of existence. I am aware that Sir Tom Farmer is not a 'football' man and what his reasons for saving Hibs at that time were. I can see that he has ensured Hibs are there for generations to come. In this time I have watched our best talent leave so that we could 'balance' the books. I have heard Rod Petrie saying we can spend 1 penny less than we earn. I have also seen the complete redevelopement of Easter Road and the fruition of a training complex come to pass. Of these achievements I take great pride in the club I support. At times though I wish the product on the park was better, that we would have been able pay more in wages to keep our best players but some things cannot be and such is the path the board of Hibs has chosen to follow.

It is with great dismay I read and hear even the option that a liquidated club could somehow be 'parachuted' back into the top flight. I ask, what would be the point of following Scottish football if there are rules for some and rules for others? Football is a sport first and a business second. I direct you to UEFA's own financial fair play values number 1 of 11 quoted

"In everything that we do, football must always be the first and most important element that we take into consideration. Football is a game before being a product, a sport before being a market, a show before being a business. (http://www.uefa.com/uefa/elevenvalues/index.html)"

I have watched the painful times with Hibs to abide by this very value before it was even mooted at UEFA level. Why then, are there even questions to be asked at this point about a club that in this tax year has negated to pay its tax liabilities that exceed the turnover of all but one other of the member clubs of the SPL just for starters?

Big Tax case as yet unruled upon. Double contract issues? I would assume that if double contracts are proven then the players involved were illegally registered with the SFA and illegitimately fielded - I would think this counts as cheating against every club that played against a player with a 'double contract'- Think about this in greater detail for a moment, players who may have had one chance in their career at a cup final winners medal, cheated. Clubs cheated out of league positions, revenue, honours, are more examples required?

This is a greater deal than simply a club being liquidated, this has been outright financial cheating for over a decade - Rangers, part of the fabric that makes up the SPL tv and sponsorship deals may very well be a fact, and money coming into Scottish football may very well be reduced, however given that Rangers financial doping created part of the product i.e. Sky's requirement for 4 Old Firm games a season. Does it not strike anyone as more than slightly incestous that this requirement for a product that has been borne out of illegal activities from a club should be of such high regard?

Sporting integrity cannot be bought. It can, however be sold. A recent fans survey showed the opinion of the fans - they are, in case you forget the life blood of all clubs. All I can do is state my case, I do not feel I would be able to support Scottish football anymore if our league has been 'rigged' and mismanagement of one club allowed to be 'whitewashed' because of their potential value.

In sport, I ask you all to consider carefully the choices you will make, this I feel is a seminal moment in Scottish football and implore you all to make the 'right' decisions.

Regards,

Excellent email. Well done. :thumbsup:

[Spike Mandela]

Love how the Fat One states that Rangers will need to decide whether they carry on in the SPL with sanctions or go down to the 3rd Division. Arrogance beyond belief.

Hope they 'choose' the third division. Despite his bluster McCoist won't fancy 3 years of his fledgling, failure of a managerial career in the wilderness.

[greenginger]

Just had a quick dig into the examples cited by Doncaster: Plymouth Argyle and Crystal Palace. Both clubs exited administration via a successful CVA. So wtf is Doncaster on about? Is he just flat out, barefaced lying?


That about sums-up the little toad. Its time somebody put him on the spot to make him explain his down right dishonesty. On the same program he dismissed the lads who carried the SPL survey as misinformed and added that they were happy now that he ( Doncaster ) had explained things to them.

Has anyone heard how that meeting went and were they given the same bulls**t that Doncaster spouted on BBC radio.

[brydekirk]

Excellent email. Well done. :thumbsup:

Agree. Brilliant stuff.

[green glory]

Looking forward to the (alleged) dual contract **** hitting the fan when the big tax case verdict is announced. No timescale yet, but probably not far away. The Rangers Tax Case blog folks are keeping their powder dry at the moment.

I wonder if Sally McMoist and Wally Schmidt benefited?

[Spike Mandela]

Looking forward to the (alleged) dual contract **** hitting the fan when the big tax case verdict is announced. No timescale yet, but probably not far away. The Rangers Tax Case blog folks are keeping their powder dry at the moment.

I wonder if Sally McMoist and Wally Schmidt benefited?

I have a funny feeling all that 'toxic' stuff will be washed away with the oldco in Bill Miller's scenario.

[PaulSmith]

"My reading of the situation is that there is no liquidation with either of the parties who are involved.
"One offer certainly involves a newco situation and very probably the other as well. I believe they both follow the incubation plan."

From McCoist today, basically they want to preserve their timeline and remain Rangers FC, therefore any retrospective punishment must be made against the 'existing' Rangers FC surely, otherwise the NewCo starts in Div 3

[Jim44]

Just had a quick dig into the examples cited by Doncaster: Plymouth Argyle and Crystal Palace. Both clubs exited administration via a successful CVA. So wtf is Doncaster on about? Is he just flat out, barefaced lying?

What did he say about these English clubs?

[PaulSmith]

Chic Young 100% convinced that rangers will be liquidated 'very shortly'.

[hibsbollah]

Sportsound tonight.is a.disgrace. Kim Il Sung would blush at the propaganda on show.

[down the slope]

Preston " we must have a Rangers in the SPL ". they don't care if the vast majority of fans are against them getting back in the SPL, why does nobody ask what if the OF had managed to get into the English league ? :confused: .

[SneakersO'Toole]

Steve Lomas, Chick Young and Alan Preston - hold your heads in shame!

Narrow minded drivel.

[Maroonsaballoon]

Apologies for yet another thread on this but can anyone tell me whether the Glasgow mafia would retain their ridiculous 11-1 voting split should Rangers reform as a newco, or are liquidated but reform and retain their SPL status incredible as that might seem, or would that "privilege" be automatically null and void ?
This was a major topic a few weeks back but haven't heard anything about this recently or have I missed something ?

[Jim44]

Apologies for yet another thread on this but can anyone tell me whether the Glasgow mafia would retain their ridiculous 11-1 voting split should Rangers reform as a newco, or are liquidated but reform and retain their SPL status incredible as that might seem, or would that "privilege" be automatically null and void ?
This was a major topic a few weeks back but haven't heard anything about this recently or have I missed something ?

I wrote a response to this a few minutes ago but the Admins moved your post to here and mine got lost in cyberspace somewhere. Can't be @rsed re-writing it but the jist of my reply was 'why not' considering how servile the other 10 clubs are proving to be. :rolleyes:

[snooky]

There will be so many twists and turns between now and the resolution of the Hun's problems that the SPL & SFA are simply damned if they do damned if they don't. On the one hand they are being castigated by the Huns for killing their club with sanctions and 'not helping them'... on the other they must be fully aware that non-OF fans and clubs will only tollerate any more crap from the penniless Huns and their aplogists. Whichever way this turns out, the SPL & SFA are going to upset a lot of people and it may even kill the game in Scotland. It would be no bad thing if UEFA were to step in to help sort out the Huns sorry mess as 1. it would get the SPL & SFA out of having to make the decisions they clearly don't want to, 2. any decision would have to be respected (like a foreign referee) and 3. would help the SFA & SPL retain some form of relationship with their members post Hun.

In fact, I'd go as far to say that the SFA & SPL position is untenable at this point. They cannot win and risk being fatally damaged by the outcome. I would be amazed if they haven't had the good sense to pick up the phone to UEFA ... but then again, this is the SFA/SPL we're talking about.

Agreed. Time to move up the ladder for a ruling. The SFA/SPL are between a rock and a hard place. EUFA (or FIFA?) should take this whole thing over, look at the facts and make a FAIR judgement. The Scottish authorative bodies are in it way over their heads.

It's like the Titanic movie .....
Cast:
RFC as the "unsinkable" Titanic
SDM as the captain "Full steam ahead & forget those weather reports"
CW as first mate (takes over the helm as soon as the captain spots the iceberg)
HMRC as the iceberg
Celtic as the Britannic (Titanic's sister ship who would later sink just like her sibling)
Other SPL clubs as all the other ships in the Atlantic (who were totally blameless but scorned for not helping Titanic)
Duff and Phelps as the band, playing on and on and on and on and .... as the ship goes down
The Blue Knights/Kennedy/Miller as the lifeboats trying to save the cream and leaving the rest to go down with the ship.

Any more? :dunno:

[PatHead]

Agreed. Time to move up the ladder for a ruling. The SFA/SPL are between a rock and a hard place. EUFA (or FIFA?) should take this whole thing over, look at the facts and make a FAIR judgement. The Scottish authorative bodies are in it way over their heads.

It's like the Titanic movie .....
Cast:
RFC as the "unsinkable" Titanic
SDM as the captain "Full steam ahead & forget those weather reports"
CW as first mate (takes over the helm as soon as the captain spots the iceberg)
HMRC as the iceberg
Celtic as the Britannic (Titanic's sister ship who would later sink just like her sibling)
Other SPL clubs as all the other ships in the Atlantic (who were totally blameless but scorned for not helping Titanic)
Duff and Phelps as the band, playing on and on and on and on and .... as the ship goes down
The Blue Knights/Kennedy/Miller as the lifeboats trying to save the cream and leaving the rest to go down with the ship.

Any more? :dunno:

SDM is more like the captain of that Italian cruise liner who jumped on the first lifeboat after putting on a disguise

[CropleyWasGod]

I wrote a response to this a few minutes ago but the Admins moved your post to here and mine got lost in cyberspace somewhere. Can't be @rsed re-writing it but the jist of my reply was 'why not' considering how servile the other 10 clubs are proving to be. :rolleyes:

Are they? I thought the relevant decisions had been deferred.

[jgl07]

Agreed. Time to move up the ladder for a ruling. The SFA/SPL are between a rock and a hard place. EUFA (or FIFA?) should take this whole thing over, look at the facts and make a FAIR judgement. The Scottish authorative bodies are in it way over their heads.

It's like the Titanic movie .....
Cast:
RFC as the "unsinkable" Titanic
SDM as the captain "Full steam ahead & forget those weather reports"
CW as first mate (takes over the helm as soon as the captain spots the iceberg)
HMRC as the iceberg
Celtic as the Britannic (Titanic's sister ship who would later sink just like her sibling)
Other SPL clubs as all the other ships in the Atlantic (who were totally blameless but scorned for not helping Titanic)
Duff and Phelps as the band, playing on and on and on and on and .... as the ship goes down
The Blue Knights/Kennedy/Miller as the lifeboats trying to save the cream and leaving the rest to go down with the ship.

Any more? :dunno:

Ticketus as the bankers who were conned into financing the whole venture.

[Jim44]

Are they? I thought the relevant decisions had been deferred.

Judging by your input to this thread you are clearly more knowledgeable and au fait about procedures, legalities and so on, but my cynicism tells me that this deferral is a ploy to accommodate the safe and unscathed parachuting of Rangers back in to the SPL and until I see anything to change my mind I'll stick with my mistrust of the 'other ten'. Don't bombard me with technical blurb in order to prove me wrong, just leave me smoldering in ignorant disgust. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Judging by your input to this thread you are clearly more knowledgeable and au fait about procedures, legalities and so on, but my cynicism tells me that this deferral is a ploy to accommodate the safe and unscathed parachuting of Rangers back in to the SPL and until I see anything to change my mind I'll stick with my mistrust of the 'other ten'. Don't bombard me with technical blurb in order to prove me wrong, just leave me smoldering in ignorant disgust. :greengrin

Smoulder away....:greengrin

Nah, I feel your pain. But read some of Cav's recent postings. The powers to dump RFC are already there.... deferring a decision to remove those powers could be a good thing.

Man, you're giving off a good heat....:greengrin

[Just Alf]

What did he say about these English clubs?


Here is a resume of what Doncaster said on radio Scotland.

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=8839&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

There you go Jim... a good read

[Jim44]

There you go Jim... a good read

Thanks. Very interesting and succinct................... I hope Rangers fail to get their 75% agreement.

[Winston Ingram]

One thing this whole thing has taught me is never to buy a Glasgow based newspaper ever again. The dozy bassa's don't even realise they are doing themselves out of a job. Why is anyone going to buy a paper when they know minutes after buying it the stories are *****?

I knew they were biased to the OF but they aren't even trying to hide it now. Thank for new Media. :agree:

[Winston Ingram]

Ticketus as the bankers who were conned into financing the whole venture.

I'm hoping Ticketus snaffle Ibrox out of the liquidation. Instead of having a 3 yr ticket deal they get a lifetime deal:greengrin

[Northernhibee]

Agreed. Time to move up the ladder for a ruling. The SFA/SPL are between a rock and a hard place. EUFA (or FIFA?) should take this whole thing over, look at the facts and make a FAIR judgement. The Scottish authorative bodies are in it way over their heads.

It's like the Titanic movie .....
Cast:
RFC as the "unsinkable" Titanic
SDM as the captain "Full steam ahead & forget those weather reports"
CW as first mate (takes over the helm as soon as the captain spots the iceberg)
HMRC as the iceberg
Celtic as the Britannic (Titanic's sister ship who would later sink just like her sibling)
Other SPL clubs as all the other ships in the Atlantic (who were totally blameless but scorned for not helping Titanic)
Duff and Phelps as the band, playing on and on and on and on and .... as the ship goes down
The Blue Knights/Kennedy/Miller as the lifeboats trying to save the cream and leaving the rest to go down with the ship.

Any more? :dunno:

Ally McCoist - a whale

EDIT: And all the Hibees heading past on a pedalo laughing at RFC sinking without a trace :giruy:

[Jim44]

Agreed. Time to move up the ladder for a ruling. The SFA/SPL are between a rock and a hard place. EUFA (or FIFA?) should take this whole thing over, look at the facts and make a FAIR judgement. The Scottish authorative bodies are in it way over their heads.

It's like the Titanic movie .....
Cast:
RFC as the "unsinkable" Titanic
SDM as the captain "Full steam ahead & forget those weather reports"
CW as first mate (takes over the helm as soon as the captain spots the iceberg)
HMRC as the iceberg
Celtic as the Britannic (Titanic's sister ship who would later sink just like her sibling)
Other SPL clubs as all the other ships in the Atlantic (who were totally blameless but scorned for not helping Titanic)
Duff and Phelps as the band, playing on and on and on and on and .... as the ship goes down
The Blue Knights/Kennedy/Miller as the lifeboats trying to save the cream and leaving the rest to go down with the ship.

Any more? :dunno:

Brian Kennedy as a stowaway

[Hibrandenburg]

What if CW, Murray and the SPL high command have all been in collusion with each other from the off? I've no real clue about the finance world but I just can't shake the feeling that all is going to plan.

[Jack]

Brian Kennedy as a stowaway

Don't forget Seaman Staines and that Tom the cabin bhoy just smiled :-)

[down the slope]

Don't forget Seaman Staines and that Tom the cabin bhoy just smiled :-)

No No , you are thinking off master bates !.

[jgl07]

Don't forget Seaman Staines and that Tom the cabin bhoy just smiled :-)

Roger the Cabin bhoy surely?

[seanshow]

Another good article summing up the Dilemma facing the SPL and the laughing-stock it could become.

http://hereisthecity.com/2012/05/01/scottish-football-needs-rangers-it-needs-the-name-it-needs-the-f/

[SteveHFC]

Is it just me or are my the only one that is getting pissed off about the solution. Can they just not go ****ing bust already :aok:

[snooky]

Another good article summing up the Dilemma facing the SPL and the laughing-stock it could become.

http://hereisthecity.com/2012/05/01/scottish-football-needs-rangers-it-needs-the-name-it-needs-the-f/

"Football's bureaucrats know this but in their love of hard cash and self-preservation they chose to ignore it. Fans don't allow themselves the luxury of amorality."

Take heed Mr Doncaster, and yer cronies.

(Good article, BTW)

[Jack]

Agreed. Time to move up the ladder for a ruling. The SFA/SPL are between a rock and a hard place. EUFA (or FIFA?) should take this whole thing over, look at the facts and make a FAIR judgement. The Scottish authorative bodies are in it way over their heads.

It's like the Titanic movie .....
Cast:
RFC as the "unsinkable" Titanic
SDM as the captain "Full steam ahead & forget those weather reports"
CW as first mate (takes over the helm as soon as the captain spots the iceberg)
HMRC as the iceberg
Celtic as the Britannic (Titanic's sister ship who would later sink just like her sibling)
Other SPL clubs as all the other ships in the Atlantic (who were totally blameless but scorned for not helping Titanic)
Duff and Phelps as the band, playing on and on and on and on and .... as the ship goes down
The Blue Knights/Kennedy/Miller as the lifeboats trying to save the cream and leaving the rest to go down with the ship.

Any more? :dunno:

Meanwhile back on tack.

I honestly don't think UEFA, or FIFA, would get involved at that level.

They will expect the SFA, as the governing association, to make the right decisions and if the don't then they will punish the SFA [and all who sail in her].

[Spike Mandela]

McCoist is an arrogant Fud.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2138164/Rangers-look-set-newco-option.html


"If there is a team in blue playing at Ibrox it's Rangers"

"rangers are Rangers and that's the opinion of the vast majority of people"

I hope these quotes are repeated to him endlessly when the Newco are washing their hands of any of Rangers debts or punishments.

[grunt]

Another good article summing up the Dilemma facing the SPL and the laughing-stock it could become.

http://hereisthecity.com/2012/05/01/scottish-football-needs-rangers-it-needs-the-name-it-needs-the-f/
That article seemed familiar when I read it - its the same as this one


Yesterday's Guardian had a great article which included references to Warrington/Cheshire's survey.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/apr/30/scottish-football-needs-rangers?newsfeed=true

[poolman]

More interesting stuff from Paul McConville

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/05/01/why-did-rangers-administrator-say-that-a-newco-with-cva-side-route-could-be-done-by-11th-may/



And more


http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/

[JeMeSouviens]

McCoist is thick as pig**** and an arrogant Fud.


FTFY.

Of course the situation isn't helped by the fact that 99% of the people interviewing him or reporting on this are also thick Huns. :rolleyes:

Here is a simple analogy if anyone needs one for a passing Hun:

- Administration and exit via CVA is like your car breaking down and getting repaired. It's the same car.

- Liquidation and a newco is like your car breaking down and getting scrapped. You get a new car but take the CDs and the furry dice with you. It's not the same car.

- Bill Miller's plan is as liquidation but instead of scrapping the old one, you hide the wreck in a lock up somewhere. The new car is still a new car.

[green glory]

Meant to be an important announcement regarding the preferred bidder this morning.

Is the admins court case against CW not due today, to try and get a hold of the shares?

SFL (not SPL) making an important announcement tomorrow regarding possibly the league structure?

[Jim44]

Meant to be an important announcement regarding the preferred bidder this morning.

Is the admins court case against CW not due today, to try and get a hold of the shares?

SFL (not SPL) making an important announcement tomorrow regarding possibly the league structure?

How about the establishment of two leagues with Rangers in the second and back 'where they belong' in one season.

[brydekirk]

How about the establishment of two leagues with Rangers in the second and back 'where they belong' in one season.

Every chance of that happening

[green glory]

How about the establishment of two leagues with Rangers in the second and back 'where they belong' in one season.

How about the establishment of 2 leagues with 6 feet of dirt shovelled over the bigots?

[hibs0666]

Looks like the American will be the preferred bidder and I like the cut of his jib...

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2004/03/01/daily36.html

[TheEastTerrace]

And more


http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/

Read the comments section - if 'TonyD' is accurate in any of his predictions of how this will play out, I think we can all safely say that Scottish football is deid.

[Jim44]

Looks like the American will be the preferred bidder and I like the cut of his jib...

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2004/03/01/daily36.html

They deserve each other.

[JeMeSouviens]

Looks like the American will be the preferred bidder and I like the cut of his jib...

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2004/03/01/daily36.html

There are various rumours he has links to Ellis and/or Whyte. Probably pish but you'd think the Hun might be thinking a touch of due diligence was in order this time, no? :rolleyes:

[PatHead]

Another Craigie White company (or 2) eventually declares how bad things are

The special administrators of Pritchard Stockbrokers has estimated a £3.4m shortfall of cash in Pritchard’s client accounts.
In a letter sent to clients last week, administrators Mazars warned it is “highly likely” there will be a shortfall in their share (http://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/investments/12000-pritchard-clients-warned-over-cash-asset-shortfall/1050244.article) of Pritchard Stockbrokers’ cash assets which were recently frozen by the FSA. A creditor report says Mazars has identified £23.7m of client cash against £27.1m of client claims, creating a shortfall of £3.4m. A total of £6m of Merchant Capital client cash is currently frozen with Pritchard.
The Financial Services Compensation Scheme says it treats stockbroking as an investment activity and would pay a maximum of £50,000 to clients if the firm is declared in default.
A Mazars spokesman says only five Merchant Capital clients have over £50,000 of cash assets with Pritchard, although it will not give figures for the individual sums involved. Around 1 per cent of Pritchard’s 5,600 direct client have cash assets over £50,000.
Pritchard had a total of 11,100 clients, including direct and Merchant Capital clients.
Mazars was appointed special administrator on March 9 after the FSA suspended Pritchard’s permissions due to concerns about the way it handled client assets and monies.
On the same day, structured product provider Merchant Capital said it would transfer all £350m of clients’ non-cash assets from Pritchard to new custodian Reyker Securities but cash assets were frozen by the regulator.
As a result of the Pritchard suspension, Merchant Capital admitted on March 8 that some income payments to clients may be delayed.
Parent company Merchant House Group’s shares are currently suspended pending a review of its finances (http://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/investments/client-anger-over-new-merchant-cap-fees-as-group-suspends-shares/1048963.article) to determine whether or not it has sufficient working capital for its present requirements.
Earlier this month, Merchant House Group announced (http://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/investments/merchant-house-group-awaits-payment-for-shares/1049644.article) it was awaiting payment for shares worth £150,000 after it issued £761,500-worth of shares in February. A spokesman says: “Merchant Capital is separately capitalised and the directors of Merchant Capital are happy with the capital situation.”
Former Glasgow Rangers owner Craig Whyte was company secretary of Pritchard and is also director of Liberty Capital, a British Virgin Islands-based company which owns 18.32 per cent of Merchant House Group.
Merchant House Group has an IFA arm, Merchant House Financial Services, which was established in December 2010 after the acquisition (http://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/adviser-news/merchant-house-takes-on-120-clarkson-hill-advisers/1027605.article) of the assets of Clarkson Hill which is in default with the FSCS.

[green glory]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/92073643/MG02

CWG help!!!

Does this mean assets being moved to a newco?

[proud_and_green]

Another good article summing up the Dilemma facing the SPL and the laughing-stock it could become.

http://hereisthecity.com/2012/05/01/scottish-football-needs-rangers-it-needs-the-name-it-needs-the-f/

Excellent article and particularly this part:

"A recent survey of Scottish football fans revealed the depth of opposition to the idea of parachuting a newco Rangers back into the SPL. Heaven knows football has a long history of ignoring what fans think, but for any sport to thrive or at least survive there must be a core belief in the fairness of competition. Without that trust there is nothing. Football's bureaucrats know this but in their love of hard cash and self-preservation they chose to ignore it. Fans don't allow themselves the luxury of amorality.

If that sounds like a romanticised view from the terraces then ask yourself this: what would be the point in watching Scottish football if you knew that no matter how badly Rangers (or Celtic for that matter) behaved or how recklessly they conducted their business they could never be thrown out of the league? There would be no point. That isn't romance, it is reality. A reality that would corrupt and erode what little trust is left in Scottish football after these last few months."

I could add to that, if they do parachute them back in - what of fines handed out by SFA/SPL, what of action against fans, what of fair play leagues (Hah - don't make me laugh!), what of lessons to our young people about working hard and trusting the system, what about trusting competition and the survival of the fittest!

I honestly think that what this journo has hit the nail on the head for me and whilst i will always support Hibs and will more than likely keep on going to ER, this will have undermined the whole ethos of Scottish Football for me. This is no different from bribes and other corrupt practices and should be dealt with in exactly the same way!

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/92073643/MG02

CWG help!!!

Does this mean assets being moved to a newco?

I think this is just housekeeping.

When a company takes out a loan secured on its assets, that security should be registered with Companies House as a charge. Similarly, when that charge is "satisfied" (ie normally when the loan is paid off), that should be notified to CH also.

To me, the document you posted is the "satisfaction" of the charge that Bank of Scotland (before they were taken over by Lloyds) had over the assets. That debt was paid off, of course, by Mr. Whyte.

This should have been registered last May, when the debt was paid off.

[ehf]

Read the comments section - if 'TonyD' is accurate in any of his predictions of how this will play out, I think we can all safely say that Scottish football is deid.

Let's hope the bit about Dunfermline getting relegated is accurate, though...

[Just Alf]

oh dear... what a shame...... :-)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-17930851

[Spike Mandela]

Read the comments section - if 'TonyD' is accurate in any of his predictions of how this will play out, I think we can all safely say that Scottish football is deid.

TonyDs version is a fleshed out version of what I always suspected and I think what most people expected would happen. How this can be done though beggars belief and as usual the creditors are shafted.

Rangers newco will wriggle out of any debt or sanctions while the media will hail all concerned. They will discuss the 'crisi' and 'pain' that Rangers have been through. Yes, so painful that instead of finising second they finished errrm second, they lost none of their high earning players and will not lose any property or indeed history and will probably end up richest club in Scotland.

Then we will have to suffer stories of the dignity of McCoist, the fighting spirit of Sandy Jardine and the untarnished reputation of SDM.

Anybody ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

[Leithenhibby]

TonyDs version is a fleshed out version of what I always suspected and I think what most people expected would happen. How this can be done though beggars belief and as usual the creditors are shafted.

Rangers newco will wriggle out of any debt or sanctions while the media will hail all concerned. They will discuss the 'crisi' and 'pain' that Rangers have been through. Yes, so painful that instead of finising second they finished errrm second, they lost none of their high earning players and will not lose any property or indeed history and will probably end up richest club in Scotland.

Then we will have to suffer stories of the dignity of McCoist, the fighting spirit of Sandy Jardine and the untarnished reputation of SDM.

Anybody ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

No yet, we shall see what happens, still a good few twists & turns for them to trip-up on :agree: :wink:

[magpie1892]

TonyDs version is a fleshed out version of what I always suspected and I think what most people expected would happen. How this can be done though beggars belief and as usual the creditors are shafted.

Rangers newco will wriggle out of any debt or sanctions while the media will hail all concerned. They will discuss the 'crisi' and 'pain' that Rangers have been through. Yes, so painful that instead of finising second they finished errrm second, they lost none of their high earning players and will not lose any property or indeed history and will probably end up richest club in Scotland.

Then we will have to suffer stories of the dignity of McCoist, the fighting spirit of Sandy Jardine and the untarnished reputation of SDM.

Anybody ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

Nowhere near as cut and dried as this. Many eyes on this one.

[Minder]

If Miler buys them they can sing one of their favourites albeit with some slightly different words to make it legal. ....We are billys boys... up to our eyes in murrays debt ....agree a cva or we die.

[EuanH78]

Nowhere near as cut and dried as this. Many eyes on this one.

Agreed, there has been an incredible amount of bluster from all and sundry since day 1. Topping's resignation is significant I think - May have to give him some credit for being able to see which way the winds blowing and ducking out, think Doncaster is hanging himself out to dry.

Wont be surprised if UEFA step in though I actually think the SFA will finally do their job, no matter what the SPL (Doncaster) tries.

Just have to wait and see, plenty left to run in this though

[The Green Goblin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz9stPeGbn4


:top marks

[TrickyNicky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz9stPeGbn4


:top marks

Here's the bam with the bairns organ to add to the collection.:greengrin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pDk75Y1SZ4&feature=related

[EuanH78]

Here's the bam with the bairns organ to add to the collection.:greengrin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pDk75Y1SZ4&feature=related

Available for download apparently :greengrin £1 proceeds to rangers fighting fund...surprised I havent heard any ringtones with it tho :hahaha:

[magpie1892]

Here's the bam with the bairns organ to add to the collection.:greengrin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pDk75Y1SZ4&feature=related

That clip is the gift that keeps giving. Epitomises the utter lack of self-awareness that so many huns have in their DNA.

[JeMeSouviens]

Nowhere near as cut and dried as this. Many eyes on this one.

Hopefully Miller will get preferred bidder, drag it out for a few more weeks before failing to pony up the cash. The longer this drags on, the worse things look for the Hun. Still hopeful the BTC verdict will be in soon and lead to yet another slew of damaging revelations. The big boy did it and ran away defence could be left looking even more ****** stupid than it does just now. :wink:

[stokesmessiah]

You know when the dust has settled on this and the words have all been written and life gets back to normal...I will always remember the first time i seen this guy on the news and i will feel a little more complete and think it was all worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpImJxXg7K0

GIRFUY

[MountcastleHibs]

Via Graham Spiers on Twitter. A midday press conference has been called.

[dangermouse]

Hope they 'choose' the third division. Despite his bluster McCoist won't fancy 3 years of his fledgling, failure of a managerial career in the wilderness.

I think that's exactly why he wants to go to the 3rd dividion as they'll romp each league in turn with no pressure to beat ra sellic (unless drawn together in one of the cups) plus he'd win the B&Q cup (or whatever it's called) 3 times, something Celtic will never do. :greengrin

[TheEastTerrace]

Miller is the preferred bidder

[dangermouse]

Agreed. Time to move up the ladder for a ruling. The SFA/SPL are between a rock and a hard place. EUFA (or FIFA?) should take this whole thing over, look at the facts and make a FAIR judgement. The Scottish authorative bodies are in it way over their heads.

It's like the Titanic movie .....
Cast:
RFC as the "unsinkable" Titanic
SDM as the captain "Full steam ahead & forget those weather reports"
CW as first mate (takes over the helm as soon as the captain spots the iceberg)
HMRC as the iceberg
Celtic as the Britannic (Titanic's sister ship who would later sink just like her sibling)
Other SPL clubs as all the other ships in the Atlantic (who were totally blameless but scorned for not helping Titanic)
Duff and Phelps as the band, playing on and on and on and on and .... as the ship goes down
The Blue Knights/Kennedy/Miller as the lifeboats trying to save the cream and leaving the rest to go down with the ship.

Any more? :dunno:

Neil Doncaster as Carpathia - The ship that sailed in to rescue them

[H18sry]

Bill Miller has been granted preferred bidder status by administrators Duff & Phelp sky news

[dangermouse]

‘If it happened, we would still have the history of the club, absolutely. I have done a bit of homework on it and newcos have happened at clubs like Plymouth and Crystal Palace.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2138164/Rangers-look-set-newco-option.html#ixzz1tnixyGtW

McCoist is an arrogant Fud.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2138164/Rangers-look-set-newco-option.html


"If there is a team in blue playing at Ibrox it's Rangers"

"rangers are Rangers and that's the opinion of the vast majority of people"

I hope these quotes are repeated to him endlessly when the Newco are washing their hands of any of Rangers debts or punishments."

He's not done his homework very well as neither of them are newco's

[lapsedhibee]

‘If it happened, we would still have the history of the club, absolutely. I have done a bit of homework on it and newcos have happened at clubs like Plymouth and Crystal Palace.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2138164/Rangers-look-set-newco-option.html#ixzz1tnixyGtW


He's not done his homework very well as neither of them are newco's

Shirley he hasn't cheated on his homework? It would be only himself he was cheating, etc.

[BarneyK]

‘If it happened, we would still have the history of the club, absolutely. I have done a bit of homework on it and newcos have happened at clubs like Plymouth and Crystal Palace.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2138164/Rangers-look-set-newco-option.html#ixzz1tnixyGtW


He's not done his homework very well as neither of them are newco's

Both emerged from Administration through CVA's, albeit with some corporate restructuring. The one they really should be quoting is Leeds United, they were proper liquidated whilst retaining a league place. :bitchy:

[H18sry]

Doncaster will now be bending over and taking it up the rear, Newco straight back into the SPL, Fans views mean nothing to that clown. The SPL is tainted a cheats charter has just been created. :agree:

[green glory]

Doncaster will now be bending over and taking it up the rear, Newco straight back into the SPL, Fans views mean nothing to that clown. The SPL is tainted a cheats charter has just been created. :agree:

His bum must be a gaping Rangers-shaped chasm.

[ancienthibby]

Preferred bidder!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17921616

[ScottB]

So the biggest stitch up in the history of Scottish football begins.

I am now convinced that the endgame has begun, and Rangers will get off scot free.


We will look back on this as the day the SPL died.

[TheEastTerrace]

So the biggest stitch up in the history of Scottish football begins.

I am now convinced that the endgame has begun, and Rangers will get off scot free.


We will look back on this as the day the SPL died.

After hearing Doncaster earlier this week and the press statement today from D&P, I'm afraid you just might be right. There will possibly be a token gesture punishment but if Miller wants the takeover done and dusted BEFORE end of season, then the new financial fair play rules that the SPL will vote on next week will not affect them. The SPL board will have the discretion to accept a newco and transfer of membership, which during the statement by D&P, they made perfectly clear would not be a newco as a result of liquidation.


I feel this is back in the SFA's court and the appeal on the judicial panel sanctions will be now very interesting,

[JeMeSouviens]

alex thomson ‏ @alextomo

This looks like backdoor liquidation, smells like it, walks like it, sings like it


No ****?! :cb

[ScottB]

After hearing Doncaster earlier this week and the press statement today from D&P, I'm afraid you just might be right. There will possibly be a token gesture punishment but if Miller wants the takeover done and dusted BEFORE end of season, then the new financial fair play rules that the SPL will vote on next week will not affect them. The SPL board will have the discretion to accept a newco and transfer of membership, which during the statement by D&P, they made perfectly clear would not be a newco as a result of liquidation.


I feel this is back in the SFA's court and the appeal on the judicial panel sanctions will be now very interesting,

Well they won't matter, as they will presumably try and saddle any and all punishments on to the old club. I'd have thought penalties would be attached to the license rather than the company, but I can see that happening.

So old Rangers will have its fines added to the creditors list, and a totally meaningless 12 month transfer ban, plus whatever gets added on for the dual contracts, while new Rangers carry on where they left off, in fact, stronger than where they left off, buying players and splashing the cash as they like.


It reeks, and I for one won't go near the SPL again.

[Jack]

You know when the dust has settled on this and the words have all been written and life gets back to normal...I will always remember the first time i seen this guy on the news and i will feel a little more complete and think it was all worth it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpImJxXg7K0

GIRFUY

I think an magical part of the timeline was when Hibs signed Claros after they failed to meet his [his agent/club whatevers] demands.

I think that was a huge wake up call for the follow followers who believed before that they were invicible.

I’m still not too concerned that they’ll be in the SPL next season.

Its all too obvious they have cheated everyone and everything they’ve touched. UEFA will be over this like a rash. Assuming Wild Bill Pickup even gets as far as shelling out a dime.

[greenginger]

May'be Vlad is the one creditor who could interdict Huns 1872 from shifting the Club assets away from the debts.

Come on Vlad, here is your chance to boot the Monkeys where it hurts. :agree:

[Spike Mandela]

It's a swindle!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHjKNVvN6ZA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Killiehibbie]

What's the point in having any kind of law if these ***** are allowed to do whatever they like?

[TheEastTerrace]

What's the point in having any kind of law if these ***** are allowed to do whatever they like?

Don't worry the new financial fair play laws will stop it....but only when RFC is saved. :cb

[Beefster]

Agreed, there has been an incredible amount of bluster from all and sundry since day 1. Topping's resignation is significant I think - May have to give him some credit for being able to see which way the winds blowing and ducking out, think Doncaster is hanging himself out to dry.

Wont be surprised if UEFA step in though I actually think the SFA will finally do their job, no matter what the SPL (Doncaster) tries.

Just have to wait and see, plenty left to run in this though

Am I missing something? I thought that Topping remains as SPL Chairman and so has a substantial say in what happens to Rangers?

[JeMeSouviens]

What's the point in having any kind of law if these ***** are allowed to do whatever they like?

They can only do what they like with the complicity of the other clubs, including ours. :rolleyes:

[JeMeSouviens]

Am I missing something? I thought that Topping remains as SPL Chairman and so has a substantial say in what happens to Rangers?

Correct. He resigned a non-exec position within the SFA, but afaik is still the chairman of the SPL.

[jgl07]

The situation at Darlington has some comparisons with Rangers:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17926586

[Moulin Yarns]

The situation at Darlington has some comparisons with Rangers:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17926586

The difference appears to be automatic expulsion with their eventual place being determined by the FA.

I would like to see the same here with Rangers, but the rules are not in place to do that, as far as I know.

[Spike Mandela]

They can only do what they like with the complicity of the other clubs, including ours. :rolleyes:

Clearly Bill Miller has been given back room assurances. Any notion that the SFA and SPL are continuing discussions with Miller is a pretence for media spin.

It also gives the SFA the chance to 'act tough' and keep the transfer embargo in place for the old company but let them transfer their share to the newco. It's like the bank repossessing your house but giving you a shiny new one mortgage free to live in.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Clearly Bill Miller has been given back room assurances. Any notion that the SFA and SPL are continuing discussions with Miller is a pretence for media spin.

It also gives the SFA the chance to 'act tough' and keep the transfer embargo in place for the old company but let them transfer their share to the newco. It's like the bank repossessing your house but giving you a shiny new one mortgage free to live in.

D&P say he hasn't. The reason they were able to nominate him was because he dropped his demand for assurances.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think an magical part of the timeline was when Hibs signed Claros after they failed to meet his [his agent/club whatevers] demands.

I think that was a huge wake up call for the follow followers who believed before that they were invicible.

I’m still not too concerned that they’ll be in the SPL next season.

Its all too obvious they have cheated everyone and everything they’ve touched. UEFA will be over this like a rash. Assuming Wild Bill Pickup even gets as far as shelling out a dime.

That's just it, Bill Miller has won the right for exclusive access to documents relating to the finances of Rangers FC, he then has to decide if he goes ahead with that knowledge gained.
The Old Co has to have a CVA agreed or go bust
The New Co has to compete with the players that agree to stay or with under 18's
The New Co has to gain access to the SPL
The New Co can't qualify for european football for three years
Creditors will be out of pocket

Really simple

And all the time a clock is ticking.....

[down the slope]

If wild Bill goes ahead and buys Rangers what happens to the big tax case especially if the findings go against Rangers, does it matter if is announced before or after he commits to buy ?.

[Spike Mandela]

D&P say he hasn't. The reason they were able to nominate him was because he dropped his demand for assurances.

Yeah right PTS................and in other news D&P announce that Elvis is alive and well living in a tenament in Constitution St.:greengrin

[down the slope]

This from the BBC website just now.

1406:
BBC Scotland correspondent James Cook"The administrators say they understand Bill Miller has assurances that #Rangers will continue in the SPL with no further points deductions

[johnbc70]

This from the BBC website just now.

1406:
BBC Scotland correspondent James Cook"The administrators say they understand Bill Miller has assurances that #Rangers will continue in the SPL with no further points deductions





Scandalous if true. Death of Scottish football, proves the league is rigged to benefit only 2 clubs.

[JeMeSouviens]

If wild Bill goes ahead and buys Rangers what happens to the big tax case especially if the findings go against Rangers, does it matter if is announced before or after he commits to buy ?.

2 answers to that.


1. Legally, no, it matters not a jot.

Wild Bill's Newco is buying the assets of Rangers Oldco. Wild Bill's Newco will get Rangers Oldco's SPL share (unless the rest of the clubs, including ours, suddenly grow a backbone). Wild Bill's Newco will be playing football next year.

Rangers Oldco (the current entity) will be left in administration with either a large debt or a ****** massive debt (depending on BTC), no stadium, no players, no league place, not playing football or indeed, doing anything.

Wild Bill claims he will attempt to get Rangers Oldco out of admin at some unspecified future time by agreeing a CVA and then merge them with Newco.

Everybody and their auntie knows this is next to impossible and when the fuss dies down, Newco are ticking along in the SPL and everyone is looking the other way, Rangers Oldco will be quietly liquidated.



2. Politically, on the other hand, the BTC coming in before Miller takes over might just be enough to rouse public opinion firmly against a stitch up. Faced with the public outcry over the Huns being found guilty of 10+ years of cheating, it's conceivable somebody in a position of power in Scottish football or within the SPL clubs might actually do the right thing and stop this travesty in its tracks. Not holding my breath but you never know.

[Judas Iscariot]

Well they won't matter, as they will presumably try and saddle any and all punishments on to the old club. I'd have thought penalties would be attached to the license rather than the company, but I can see that happening.

So old Rangers will have its fines added to the creditors list, and a totally meaningless 12 month transfer ban, plus whatever gets added on for the dual contracts, while new Rangers carry on where they left off, in fact, stronger than where they left off, buying players and splashing the cash as they like.


It reeks, and I for one won't go near the SPL again.

Why punish Hibs for this?

I dont know why so many people are willing to walk away from the SPL then in turn Hibs due to this shambles!

Our club hasn't done anything wrong, every single Scottish football fan outside the Hun should be walking out on the SFA, Scottish national team etc etc not their own clubs..

[hibsbollah]

Rangers will continue in the SPL with no further points deductions



[/COLOR]

In other news; a scientific study has found that bears search out woodland areas for the purpose of defecating.

[Beefster]

Why punish Hibs for this?

I dont know why so many people are willing to walk away from the SPL then in turn Hibs due to this shambles!

Our club hasn't done anything wrong, every single Scottish football fan outside the Hun should be walking out on the SFA, Scottish national team etc etc not their own clubs..

The club need to speak out on this when it is certain that a newco will happen. By staying silent, they're as complicit as the rest of the SPL.

[green glory]

I think this is pretty much a gamble. Without RFC Doncaster's SPL is finished. Trying to call everyone's bluff now I think. Time for the other clubs to walk from the SPL. Time for Hector to push that big red button.

[JeMeSouviens]

Why punish Hibs for this?

I dont know why so many people are willing to walk away from the SPL then in turn Hibs due to this shambles!

Our club hasn't done anything wrong, every single Scottish football fan outside the Hun should be walking out on the SFA, Scottish national team etc etc not their own clubs..


Our club could put a stop to this. Issue a rallying cry for sporting integrity and guarantee that we will vote against a stitch up at every turn. Challenge other clubs to do the same. The support would be right behind them. Other clubs supports would demand that their club followed suit.

[JeMeSouviens]

The club need to speak out on this when it is certain that a newco will happen. By staying silent, they're as complicit as the rest of the SPL.

There is a concrete preferred bid on the table. Therefore, there is something to comment on right now.

[jgl07]

It appears to be time to put Scottish Football out of its misery.

[green is good]

I really don't get how they can start a newco AND keep the oldco going but still be in the SPL with no points deduction. :confused:

[ScottB]

Why punish Hibs for this?

I dont know why so many people are willing to walk away from the SPL then in turn Hibs due to this shambles!

Our club hasn't done anything wrong, every single Scottish football fan outside the Hun should be walking out on the SFA, Scottish national team etc etc not their own clubs..

Well we shall see, if Hibs vote with the herd and welcome Rangers back with open arms, then yes they have done something wrong.

At this juncture, merely particpating in this farce, and the 'rebel 10' continuing to play in the SPL is very much particpating, is, for me, wrong. It is the will full support of a company that has cheated us all out of £100million, in a league that is, without a shadow of a doubt, rigged. It won't be sport anymore, it will have all the integrity of WWE and I will have no interest.

At the least I expect a Hibs statement decrying it, but we will no doubt be as silent and subservient as the rest.

[Judas Iscariot]

Why isn't there such a call for a "boycott" of all things SFA then?!

National Team(s), Cup Competetions etc etc

[green glory]

Our club could put a stop to this. Issue a rallying cry for sporting integrity and guarantee that we will vote against a stitch up at every turn. Challenge other clubs to do the same. The support would be right behind them. Other clubs supports would demand that their club followed suit.

We'll see if the SPL chairmen have big enough balls on Monday. Remember them talking about starting a new league as part of the SFL with anyone wanting to join being welcome? Remember also the SFA talking about setting up a new Scottish National League? The SFL are meant to be announcing something today.

SFA and all clubs other than Rangers v SPL/Rangers battle looming?

I hope so.

[Spike Mandela]

Why punish Hibs for this?

I dont know why so many people are willing to walk away from the SPL then in turn Hibs due to this shambles!

Our club hasn't done anything wrong, every single Scottish football fan outside the Hun should be walking out on the SFA, Scottish national team etc etc not their own clubs..

Because the league is dead, sporting integrity is dead, there is absolutely no point in watching our club frugally living within their means while cheats prosper. I for one couldn't stomach watching Rangers become the wealthiest, debt free club in the SPL then continue to watch our journeymen overturned by their latest high profile new signings. it is already heavily weighted in their favour without this fiasco. Unless RP announces a policy of financial reckless abandon for Hibs in the hopes of acheiving a Hibs Newco what is the bloody point.

Sooner or later every single one of us has to reach a point where it is a matter of principle and a case of doing the right thing. If Rangers come out of this unscathed I no longer will want anything to do with the SPL and will take steps to cancel my season ticket and if it can't be done I will take the hit for one year but certainly won't be back.

[jgl07]

I really don't get how they can start a newco AND keep the oldco going but still be in the SPL with no points deduction. :confused:

They start the Newco and transfer all the assets to the that entity. The debts remain with the Oldco under the control of the administrators.

They get the nod from the SPL.

Meanwhile they try to organize a CVA with the creditors and get hold of Whyte's shares.

Once the Oldco is out of administration they merger the two companies thus retaining Rangers' 'history'.

If they can't arrange a CVA the Oldco is liquidated but they are still in the SPL.

The Newco will gain entry to the SPL before the FFP regulations have been voted through so they will be exempt from any of them.

[green glory]

They start the Newco and transfer all the assets to the that entity. The debts remain with the Oldco under the control of the administrators.

They get the nod from the SPL.

Meanwhile they try to organize a CVA with the creditors and get hold of Whyte's shares.

Once the Oldco is out of administration they merger the two companies thus retaining Rangers' 'history'.

If they can't arrange a CVA the Oldco is liquidated but they are still in the SPL.

The Newco will gain entry to the SPL before the FFP regulations have been voted through so they will be exempt from any of them.

But how can you transfer the assets of the club when CW still has 85% of the shares?

[Gingertosser]

BBC Scotland correspondent James Cook
"Administrators say they understand #Rangers will retain all previous titles and continue in SPL with no points deductions."

I think Spartans better start building a new stand for next season, I still need my football fix, but it won't be with the SPL.

[johnbc70]

#RIPScottishfootball

[JeMeSouviens]

But how can you transfer the assets of the club when CW still has 85% of the shares?

It's not a transfer, it's a sale. The admins have the power to sell the company's assets.

[jgl07]

But how can you transfer the assets of the club when CW still has 85% of the shares?

They 'persuade' him by leaving the Oldco as a shell which is totally worthless. They can slip him a few quid for his shares as an alternative to liquidation where he would get nought.

[Andy74]

Just the other week the majority of Hibs.net was trying to pesuade Hibs to vote against measures which would have led to real sanctions for any Newco...

Well, Rangers walking straight back in is what you then get.

[Haymaker]

A new company should start at the bottom.

[jgl07]

Just the other week the majority of Hibs.net was trying to pesuade Hibs to vote against measures which would have led to real sanctions for any Newco...

Well, Rangers walking straight back in is what you then get.

You would not need to impose sanctions against a Newco if you tell the Newco to apply to Division 3 of the SFL.

I don't much care if a Rangers Newco are in the SPL with or without sanctions.

Either way I am out of here!

[Houchy]

Just the other week the majority of Hibs.net was trying to pesuade Hibs to vote against measures which would have led to real sanctions for any Newco...

Well, Rangers walking straight back in is what you then get.

Not getting at you Andy but can you elaborate on your comment?

[Beefster]

Just the other week the majority of Hibs.net was trying to pesuade Hibs to vote against measures which would have led to real sanctions for any Newco...

Well, Rangers walking straight back in is what you then get.

That's up there with "its the fans' fault that we're mince". I'm not sure about the rest of the 'majority of Hibs.net' but I wasn't invited to vote on the proposals.

[ScottB]

Just the other week the majority of Hibs.net was trying to pesuade Hibs to vote against measures which would have led to real sanctions for any Newco...

Well, Rangers walking straight back in is what you then get.

I believe the objections were either that it wasn't harsh enough, that no newco should be anywhere near the SPL, and in general the proposals were flawed and ill thought out.

Hardly equivalent to support of what is happening.

[green is good]

They start the Newco and transfer all the assets to the that entity. The debts remain with the Oldco under the control of the administrators.

They get the nod from the SPL.

Meanwhile they try to organize a CVA with the creditors and get hold of Whyte's shares.

Once the Oldco is out of administration they merger the two companies thus retaining Rangers' 'history'.

If they can't arrange a CVA the Oldco is liquidated but they are still in the SPL.

The Newco will gain entry to the SPL before the FFP regulations have been voted through so they will be exempt from any of them.

That much I understand, what I mean is how can they get away with this? Why should they be allowed to have a newco take the good bits and carry on as if nothing has happened while the oldco is left to sort out later?

[talking_wiss]

Just the other week the majority of Hibs.net was trying to pesuade Hibs to vote against measures which would have led to real sanctions for any Newco...

Well, Rangers walking straight back in is what you then get.

I would suggest that's a little unfair as most folk really don't know (including the media!) what is going on at Ibrox with little transparancy of the affect the SPL vote would have had. It's clear most non-Rangers fans want to see the appropriate sanctions against the club, it's a total minefield now as to how this can be achieved and by the sounds of things if it can be achieved.

I emailed Hibs weeks ago regarding this matter to which i have yet to get a response but I would agree with many of the comments earlier where I would find it hard to justify forking time and money out on a sport that has lost all integrity (in the event a Newco goes straight back in to the SPL with no sanctions against it). For a club like Hibs, which we have all had to 'buy in' to a policy of prudency and long-term sustainabiliy this is especially galling. Really, what is the point if a newco Rangers comes in and starts cherry-picking the best of the SPL yet again weakening every other team season after season after a decade of cheating the taxman and scottish football in general.

[Caversham Green]

BBC Scotland correspondent James Cook
"Administrators say they understand #Rangers will retain all previous titles and continue in SPL with no points deductions."

I think Spartans better start building a new stand for next season, I still need my football fix, but it won't be with the SPL.

I hope he's wrong. If Rangers retain their history that history includes a 12 month signing embargo, unpaid fines of £160k (plus £200k levied on their owner and director which he is refusing to pay - that should be pursued through the club) and as yet unanswered charges of double contracts/falsified records. They can't be allowed to cherry-pick which bits of their history they'd like to keep.

Is there any scope for an on-line vote of no confidence in the SPL board - along the same lines as the Newco survey?

[green glory]

I hope he's wrong. If Rangers retain their history that history includes a 12 month signing embargo, unpaid fines of £160k (plus £200k levied on their owner and director which he is refusing to pay - that should be pursued through the club) and as yet unanswered charges of double contracts/falsified records. They can't be allowed to cherry-pick which bits of their history they'd like to keep.

Is there any scope for an on-line vote of no confidence in the SPL board - along the same lines as the Newco survey?

Hopefully that no confidence vote will happen on. Monday at the meeting of the SPL chairman.

[SurferRosa]

I really don't get how they can start a newco AND keep the oldco going but still be in the SPL with no points deduction. :confused:

Because HMRC, Ticketus, other football clubs owed money, every SPL club and its supporters and every small creditor is about to get totally stiffed.........with the help of Doncaster, the SPL board and the SFA.

[Paisley Hibby]

I would suggest that's a little unfair as most folk really don't know (including the media!) what is going on at Ibrox with little transparancy of the affect the SPL vote would have had. It's clear most non-Rangers fans want to see the appropriate sanctions against the club, it's a total minefield now as to how this can be achieved and by the sounds of things if it can be achieved.

I emailed Hibs weeks ago regarding this matter to which i have yet to get a response but I would agree with many of the comments earlier where I would find it hard to justify forking time and money out on a sport that has lost all integrity (in the event a Newco goes straight back in to the SPL with no sanctions against it). For a club like Hibs, which we have all had to 'buy in' to a policy of prudency and long-term sustainabiliy this is especially galling. Really, what is the point if a newco Rangers comes in and starts cherry-picking the best of the SPL yet again weakening every other team season after season after a decade of cheating the taxman and scottish football in general.

There is no point whatsoever. The position according to the BBC is a follows

"Bill Miller has got sufficiently comfortable in terms of the football authorities to go unconditional with his bid, and on that basis we can proceed," said Rangers joint administrator David Whitehouse.

If that means what it seems to mean then I've got a problem. I will always be a Hibs fan but I just can't stomach this. I guess I'll end up following an English team. Scottish football is already dire anyway.

[jonty]

Rangers administrators in court tomorrow
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/rangers-adminstrators-in-court-friday-4th-may-before-lord-hodge/

for a 1 hr session.

[Paisley Hibby]

Because HMRC, Ticketus, other football clubs owed money, every SPL club and its supporters and every small creditor is about to get totally stiffed.........with the help of Doncaster, the SPL board and the SFA.

And don't forget - HMRC collects money owed to you, me and all other taxpayers. So at a time when public sector jobs are being slashed and services cut, SPL is helping rob us all blind.

[HibeeMG]

If Rangers become a NewCo and all the creditors get stiffed, what happens to Duff & Phelps?

Aren't they supposed to get the best deal for the creditors? This seems to be the worst deal possible.

[jgl07]

If Rangers become a NewCo and all the creditors get stiffed, what happens to Duff & Phelps?

Aren't they supposed to get the best deal for the creditors? This seems to be the worst deal possible.

They will sell Rangers' assets to the Newco to put into the pot either for liquidation or for a CVA.

[greenginger]

They start the Newco and transfer all the assets to the that entity. The debts remain with the Oldco under the control of the administrators.

They get the nod from the SPL.

Meanwhile they try to organize a CVA with the creditors and get hold of Whyte's shares.

Once the Oldco is out of administration they merger the two companies thus retaining Rangers' 'history'.

If they can't arrange a CVA the Oldco is liquidated but they are still in the SPL.

The Newco will gain entry to the SPL before the FFP regulations have been voted through so they will be exempt from any of them.

When is this Oldco to Newco transfer meant to happen ? Don't they know the transfer window is shut. Players are stuck at Oldco until the window opens. :confused:

[Paisley Hibby]

If Rangers become a NewCo and all the creditors get stiffed, what happens to Duff & Phelps?

Aren't they supposed to get the best deal for the creditors? This seems to be the worst deal possible.

Good point. There's something very odd about all this. Also, why is the BTC taking so long? A decision has been "imminent" since February. You would be forgiven for thinking that the powers that be are waiting for Rangers to get their "get out of jail free" card sorted before issuing a decision.

[greenginger]

Good point. There's something very odd about all this. Also, why is the BTC taking so long? A decision has been "imminent" since February. You would be forgiven for thinking that the powers that be are waiting for Rangers to get their "get out of jail free" card sorted before issuing a decision.

Hopefully they will find a way of landing the BTC mega-bill on the Newco if it has'nt been presented in its final text to the Oldco. :greengrin

[SurferRosa]

Good point. There's something very odd about all this. Also, why is the BTC taking so long? A decision has been "imminent" since February. You would be forgiven for thinking that the powers that be are waiting for Rangers to get their "get out of jail free" card sorted before issuing a decision.

Yes, you have to wonder about this. What`s the holdup.

This decision was expected around Easter so why is everyone still waiting?

[jgl07]

When is this Oldco to Newco transfer meant to happen ? Don't they know the transfer window is shut. Players are stuck at Oldco until the window opens. :confused:

After the final match of the season will do.

The transfer window does not prevent players moving but stops their new club playing them.

[Just Alf]

Chris McLaughlin, BBC Sport
"SPL source tells me that Bill Miller has been given no assurances about possible sanctions for a newco #Rangers"

[Spike Mandela]

Chris McLaughlin, BBC Sport
"SPL source tells me that Bill Miller has been given no assurances about possible sanctions for a newco #Rangers"

JusT a nod and a wink from a strange man with a funny handshake and his trouser rolled up.:greengrin

I wouldn't believe an SPL source if he told me Sunday followed Saturday.

[greenginger]

Has anyone asked Mr William G Miller which foot he kicks with ? :wink:

[Just Alf]

JusT a nod and a wink from a strange man with a funny handshake and his trouser rolled up.:greengrin

I wouldn't believe an SPL source if he told me Sunday followed Saturday.

Ah...... fair point!

:hmmm:

[TheEastTerrace]

After the final match of the season will do.

The transfer window does not prevent players moving but stops their new club playing them.

I think they want it done before season ends

[ScottB]

I think they want it done before season ends

The player issue is a point, how can they do it? I know FIFA / UEFA can give special dispensation for a player to join a new club after being made redundant, but note that boy from Rangers still hasn't been cleared to join Bolton. It aint gonna happen overnight.

Which would suggest to me that UEFA would be able to stop that plan in its tracks. To be honest I don't think it's required, the SPL will likely vote them back in anyway, there isn't the need for the elaborate overnight swap between companies I suspect...

[jgl07]

I think they want it done before season ends

To be honest there are so many holes in the scheme that it can only go through with extreme corruption from the authorities.

There isn't a chance in hell of getting a CVA approved before the end of the season if at all. I will be surprised if Craig Whyte can be totally overlooked as Miller is arguing.

That leaves the Oldco facing liquidation which means that all the players contracts revert to the SPL and effectively all become free agents if they so wish.

So the Newco will be there without any history or any players. Miller has argued that he will curb excessive spending so they are going to be hard pressed to put together a competitive team even assuming that the SFA transfer embargo is not applied to the Newco.

My suspicion is that the whole 'incubator' company thing is a ploy to try and keep the fans on board and convince them that their history will be retained.

He will buy the assets from the admins for a knock down price and be looking to sell the Newco on as soon as possible.

[HibeeMG]

They will sell Rangers' assets to the Newco to put into the pot either for liquidation or for a CVA.

In that case then, I presume they will have to justify the price they get for those assets with the courts?

[SetonClapper]

If the solution to Rangers predicament was so simple, why didn't all the bidders come up with it. There has to be more to it, with not quite so simple a solution for Rangers.

[Spike Mandela]

Duff and Phelps saying HMRC and Ticketus have agreed the deal and creditors support the proposal:confused:

[poolman]

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/fans-buy-millers-bid-rangers/1376

[TowerHibs]

All over BBC that they will be no further sanctions and they will waltz straight back into the league.

When will the people in power not understand that this is nothing to do about money??? After this final, I won't be back to another game. Literally throwing money away! Happilygo to more games down south and abroad. Most people won't be like me, but it's making a mockery of the passion other fans invest in the Scottish game

[CropleyWasGod]

If the solution to Rangers predicament was so simple, why didn't all the bidders come up with it. There has to be more to it, with not quite so simple a solution for Rangers.

It is liquidation/asset stripping by any other name, which was not on the agenda (of the prospective buyers, at least) until relatively recently. At the outset, the admins and buyers were more confident about a CVA and trade-out situation, and the L word was never mentioned. I think a healthy dose of reality, and a ticking clock, have concentrated minds somewhat.

[PaulSmith]

To be honest there are so many holes in the scheme that it can only go through with extreme corruption from the authorities.

There isn't a chance in hell of getting a CVA approved before the end of the season if at all. I will be surprised if Craig Whyte can be totally overlooked as Miller is arguing.

That leaves the Oldco facing liquidation which means that all the players contracts revert to the SPL and effectively all become free agents if they so wish.

So the Newco will be there without any history or any players. Miller has argued that he will curb excessive spending so they are going to be hard pressed to put together a competitive team even assuming that the SFA transfer embargo is not applied to the Newco.

My suspicion is that the whole 'incubator' company thing is a ploy to try and keep the fans on board and convince them that their history will be retained.

He will buy the assets from the admins for a knock down price and be looking to sell the Newco on as soon as possible.

It would appear from the most recent comments from D&P's that both HMRC and Ticketus are agreeable to the CVA proposed by Bill Miller.

So no sanctions from SPL, £130m debt disappears and I'm sure that the SFA will find in Rangers favour in regards the transfer ban. Start of next season with 40k ST's and no debt. Why the F bother anymore with Scottish Football?

[BarneyK]

It is liquidation/asset stripping by any other name, which was not on the agenda (of the prospective buyers, at least) until relatively recently. At the outset, the admins and buyers were more confident about a CVA and trade-out situation, and the L word was never mentioned. I think a healthy dose of reality, and a ticking clock, have concentrated minds somewhat.

This kind of thing? :wink:

What is asset stripping?

Asset stripping is taking company funds or assets of value while leaving behind the debts.

Company directors transfer only the assets of one company to another and not the liabilities. The result is a dormant company with large liabilities that cannot be met and it has to be put into liquidation

Stripping of company assets is normally done for two main reasons:

•The fraudsters deliberately target a company or companies to take ownership, move the assets and then put the stripped entity into liquidation
•"Phoenixing" - directors move assets from one limited company to another to 'secure' the benefits of their business and avoid the liabilities. Most or all the directors will usually be the same in both companies. This usually arises as a way of 'rescuing' the assets of a failing business rather than targeting a company


http://www.sfo.gov.uk/fraud/what-is-fraud/corporate-fraud/asset-stripping.aspx

Actually, how does this differ from what is being proposed? Looks well dodgy...

[CropleyWasGod]

It would appear from the most recent comments from D&P's that both HMRC and Ticketus are agreeable to the CVA proposed by Bill Miller.

?

Where are you getting this from, Paul?

[Spike Mandela]

Where are you getting this from, Paul?

BBC journalists twitter.

[BarneyK]

Where are you getting this from, Paul?

Alastair Lamont on Twitter, I believe.

[CropleyWasGod]

This kind of thing? :wink:

What is asset stripping?

Asset stripping is taking company funds or assets of value while leaving behind the debts.

Company directors transfer only the assets of one company to another and not the liabilities. The result is a dormant company with large liabilities that cannot be met and it has to be put into liquidation

Stripping of company assets is normally done for two main reasons:

•The fraudsters deliberately target a company or companies to take ownership, move the assets and then put the stripped entity into liquidation
•"Phoenixing" - directors move assets from one limited company to another to 'secure' the benefits of their business and avoid the liabilities. Most or all the directors will usually be the same in both companies. This usually arises as a way of 'rescuing' the assets of a failing business rather than targeting a company


http://www.sfo.gov.uk/fraud/what-is-fraud/corporate-fraud/asset-stripping.aspx

Something like that.

It's the following extract from D&P's statement that I find most interesting:-

"In recent weeks there has been much debate about Rangers exiting from administration through a stand-alone CVA. However, the barriers to a proposed stand-alone CVA are now too high.

"These barriers include, in particular, the absence of any bidder proposing unconditionally sufficient funds to enable a stand-alone CVA to take place.

"Crucially a stand-alone CVA would take so long now to effect, the Club could not survive in administration.

As a consequence, no party has been able to submit an unconditional bid in a stand-alone CVA scenario.

"We confirm that discussions with the two final bidding parties for the Club included the possibility, as part of the proposals, the formation of a new company in addition to the preservation of the Rangers Football Club plc.

"Mr Miller's proposal involves the use of a specially created newco in addition to the retention of the Rangers Football Club plc. The business and assets he proposes to purchase will be sheltered in a newco and returned to the plc once the plc has been 'cleaned up'.

That begs a number of questions:-

1. what is the time-scale for the whole thing? Is that important?

2. what happens if the OldCo is not "cleaned up"?

3. what value is being put on the assets that are being sold? Is that value challengable?

I will have more.

[BarneyK]

Alasdair Lamont ‏ @BBCAlLamont

David Whitehouse: "We've already been in consultation with largest creditor, HMRC and they're fully aware of and are supportive of the bid.

DW: HMRC & Ticketus are both creditors of the company and the creditors have voted in favour of the proposals which enable us to do deal

DW: They will receive the benefit pro rata with other creditors of the pool of funds which have been created for the creditors generally.

DW: That pool of funds will come from the proceeds of the litigation that have been brought..

.. the existing assets such as they are and the proceeds of the sale and purchase agreement which we are commencing now with Bill Miller."

[Andy74]

That's up there with "its the fans' fault that we're mince". I'm not sure about the rest of the 'majority of Hibs.net' but I wasn't invited to vote on the proposals.

There was a poll on here, so you were.

I said then that the current situation was that they could get voted back in with no sanctions and so couldn't get the objections to sanctions being voted in.

The proposals did not make it any more likely than we have now that a newco would be voted in, but they did at least have some decent sanctions if it happened.

[matty_f]

Just trying to get my head around this at the moment, but so far as I can see Miller wants to seperate the bad bit of Rangers (with the debt) from the good bit (the name/history etc), while getting an agreement through CVA to repay the creditors whoever much it is that they'll agree to in the pound.

I think a few football clubs have done that. In fact, didn't STF shuffle around debt and create companies (or at least another company) when he came into Hibs. The difference being that we didn't need to put a CVA in place.

The CVA is between Rangers and the creditors, and so really it's up to them what's agreeable and that doesn't then become a sporting issue per se, more a business one, (other than the football related debts, of course).

I don't understand what the SPL or SFA can do here. If Miller creates the newco and transfers the liabilities to that, while keeping the oldco intact, then there's probably nothing that the SPL can do about it.

Am I totally on the wrong track here, and if so, what have I got wrong?

[Paisley Hibby]

Where are you getting this from, Paul?

It was on Radio Scotland. They also quoted SPL as saying they had given no assurances re a Newco Rangers. That is almost certainly disingenuous of SPL - Miller is saying that his plan is not a Newco so any assurances given by SPL would not be about a Newco. However, Radio Scotland also had guy from Ernest & Young on who said that "incubator" is just another word for newco.

[BarneyK]

It was on Radio Scotland. They also quoted SPL as saying they had given no assurances re a Newco Rangers. That is almost certainly disingenuous of SPL - Miller is saying that his plan is not a Newco so any assurances given by SPL would not be about a Newco. However, Radio Scotland also had guy from Ernest & Young on who said that "incubator" is just another word for newco.

That's cleared it up then :greengrin

[BarneyK]

Just trying to get my head around this at the moment, but so far as I can see Miller wants to seperate the bad bit of Rangers (with the debt) from the good bit (the name/history etc), while getting an agreement through CVA to repay the creditors whoever much it is that they'll agree to in the pound.

I think a few football clubs have done that. In fact, didn't STF shuffle around debt and create companies (or at least another company) when he came into Hibs. The difference being that we didn't need to put a CVA in place.

The CVA is between Rangers and the creditors, and so really it's up to them what's agreeable and that doesn't then become a sporting issue per se, more a business one, (other than the football related debts, of course).

I don't understand what the SPL or SFA can do here. If Miller creates the newco and transfers the liabilities to that, while keeping the oldco intact, then there's probably nothing that the SPL can do about it.

Am I totally on the wrong track here, and if so, what have I got wrong?

I think the problem arises when the CVA is found to be unworkable and they decide to liquidate. The opinion seems to be that they will be able to do so without any real penalties.

[Spike Mandela]

Just trying to get my head around this at the moment, but so far as I can see Miller wants to seperate the bad bit of Rangers (with the debt) from the good bit (the name/history etc), while getting an agreement through CVA to repay the creditors whoever much it is that they'll agree to in the pound.

I think a few football clubs have done that. In fact, didn't STF shuffle around debt and create companies (or at least another company) when he came into Hibs. The difference being that we didn't need to put a CVA in place.

The CVA is between Rangers and the creditors, and so really it's up to them what's agreeable and that doesn't then become a sporting issue per se, more a business one, (other than the football related debts, of course).

I don't understand what the SPL or SFA can do here. If Miller creates the newco and transfers the liabilities to that, while keeping the oldco intact, then there's probably nothing that the SPL can do about it.

Am I totally on the wrong track here, and if so, what have I got wrong?

What about the sporting issue of other clubs paying their full tax for the last 15 years?

Why don't we all just go for reckless financial spending and then set up a newco. Surely this is THE business model for a modern football club.

[Paisley Hibby]

That's cleared it up then :greengrin

Just read it again and I see what you mean :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Just trying to get my head around this at the moment, but so far as I can see Miller wants to seperate the bad bit of Rangers (with the debt) from the good bit (the name/history etc), while getting an agreement through CVA to repay the creditors whoever much it is that they'll agree to in the pound.

I think a few football clubs have done that. In fact, didn't STF shuffle around debt and create companies (or at least another company) when he came into Hibs. The difference being that we didn't need to put a CVA in place.

The CVA is between Rangers and the creditors, and so really it's up to them what's agreeable and that doesn't then become a sporting issue per se, more a business one, (other than the football related debts, of course).

I don't understand what the SPL or SFA can do here. If Miller creates the newco and transfers the liabilities to that, while keeping the oldco intact, then there's probably nothing that the SPL can do about it.

Am I totally on the wrong track here, and if so, what have I got wrong?

It's the other way about.

[BarneyK]

What about the sporting issue of other clubs paying their full tax for the last 15 years?

Why don't we all just go for reckless financial spending and then set up a newco. Surely this is THE business model for a modern football club.

I think Matty means as things stand. If the end game is liquidation and they are unable to be held accountable for that, well that's another matter. If they agree a CVA, I don't think we have much to complain about. Won't stop me, mind.

[matty_f]

I think the problem arises when the CVA is found to be unworkable and they decide to liquidate. The opinion seems to be that they will be able to do so without any real penalties.

Yep, that's a big issue but nobody can do anything about that until it happens, if it happens.


What about the sporting issue of other clubs paying their full tax for the last 15 years?

Why don't we all just go for reckless financial spending and then set up a newco. Surely this is THE business model for a modern football club.

I agree, but playing devil's advocate here, if HMRC agree the CVA and Rangers repay whatever in the pound, that's the same as many businesses who find themselves in the position of having to agree structured and partial debt repayments. That's between HMRC and Rangers, rather than the SPL (though IIRC, the SPL want to make being on time and up to date with tax payments part something that's punishable if it's not adhered to - it was in the proposals that are being delayed as far as I remember).

[TheEastTerrace]

Surely not the end of the saga by any stretch but I feel dejected, depressed and cheated by the possibility of Rangers coming out of this relatively unscathed. This is not the game I fell in love with and it's an absolute outrage that the authorities could even consider facilitating it. Money has ruined any sporting integrity if there really was any in this parochial footballing nation of ours. Time to logout.

[HibbyRod]

Surely not the end of the saga by any stretch but I feel dejected, depressed and cheated by the possibility of Rangers coming out of this relatively unscathed. This is not the game I fell in love with and it's an absolute outrage that the authorities could even consider facilitating it. Money has ruined any sporting integrity if there really was any in this parochial footballing nation of ours. Time to logout.

Pretty much how I feel just now!

[stokesmessiah]

If it was as easy as this then why did the other bidders not come up with the same plan? Also, it has been clear from day 1 that Doncaster & the SPL were going to roll over like a puppy to have their bellies tickled by Rangers so how come it has taken so long for the Miller bid to be agreed?

I will be absolutely disgusted if they walk away from this, almost as disgusted as i am that the majority of Hun fans seem to be rejoicing at getting away with it. stupid B****** will still be singing god save the queen in weeks to come, god save her just dont bloody pay her the money you are due though eh?

SPL is dead if this happens.

[matty_f]

Are there not laws in place to stop companies from shafting creditors by starting newcos and moving the debt to them while keeping the assets safe?

[grunt]

DW: That pool of funds will come from the proceeds of the litigation that have been brought..
Looks like they've told HMRC that they expect to win the case against Collyer Bristow and that will provide £25m which will be split among the creditors.
I'd be surprised if HMRC swallowed that one.

[CropleyWasGod]

Are there not laws in place to stop companies from shafting creditors by starting newcos and moving the debt to them while keeping the assets safe?

They are not doing that, though. They are selling the assets to the NewCo, and keeping the liabilities in the OldCo. Those liabilities will be partly paid off by the proceeds from the sale of the assets.

[matty_f]

Looks like they've told HMRC that they expect to win the case against Collyer Bristow and that will provide £25m which will be split among the creditors.
I'd be surprised if HMRC swallowed that one.

What about Craig Whyte's shares as well - was he not after £30m for them? Surely Miller can't buy the club without buying Whyte's shares?

[JeMeSouviens]

Just trying to get my head around this at the moment, but so far as I can see Miller wants to seperate the bad bit of Rangers (with the debt) from the good bit (the name/history etc), while getting an agreement through CVA to repay the creditors whoever much it is that they'll agree to in the pound.

I think a few football clubs have done that. In fact, didn't STF shuffle around debt and create companies (or at least another company) when he came into Hibs. The difference being that we didn't need to put a CVA in place.

The CVA is between Rangers and the creditors, and so really it's up to them what's agreeable and that doesn't then become a sporting issue per se, more a business one, (other than the football related debts, of course).

I don't understand what the SPL or SFA can do here. If Miller creates the newco and transfers the liabilities to that, while keeping the oldco intact, then there's probably nothing that the SPL can do about it.

Am I totally on the wrong track here, and if so, what have I got wrong?


Firstly, you need to ignore all the pish you've read and heard from Scottish football pundits over the last weeks and months.

Professional football clubs in Scotland are companies. Rangers FC plc is Rangers, there is no legal entity other than that one. The club/company may be in turn owned by another company, eg. Hibernian Holdings owns 90% of HFC, Rangers FC Group owns 85% of RFC, but the simple fact is that the club and company are legally indistinguishable.

Now, as you say, if the company can satisfy its creditors and agree a CVA it can exit administration and go back to trading normally, nothing to see here for the SPL/SFA. This is what Motherwell did.

This is not what's being proposed for the Huns. Miller is proposing to start a new company, ie. a totally new club that has never played before. This club will buy the assets of RFC including stadium etc. and attempt to join the SPL in place of the existing club. It is up to the SFA and SPL to decide whether or not to allow this new club to take the place of the existing one. Whether or not the existing company is immediately liquidated or left to hang around as an empty shell for a while is completely irrelevant.

When Airdrieonians FC were liquidated, an attempt was made to form a newco to take their place. This was blocked and relegation from SFL Div 1 was cancelled. Gretna took the resulting free space in the league. Subsequently, an Airdrie supporting businessman bought Clydebank FC, moved them to Airdrie and changed their name, but legally Aidrie United FC is Clydebank FC, they are the same company.

[CropleyWasGod]

What about Craig Whyte's shares as well - was he not after £30m for them? Surely Miller can't buy the club without buying Whyte's shares?

He's not buying the club. He is buying the assets.

[matty_f]

They are not doing that, though. They are selling the assets to the NewCo, and keeping the liabilities in the OldCo. Those liabilities will be partly paid off by the proceeds from the sale of the assets.

Same question applies though chief - can companies be brought to task for doing that?

[blindsummit]

It seems like the machinations are coming to their conclusion now and the result the cynics always expected is to come about. Rangers will escape with a single bound and continue as if nothing has happened. I always expected that SDM, CW, the SFA, SPL D*P ect al were corrupt from the start and had this fix lined up from the start.

My one hope was that HMRC would be the spanner in their works, particularly all their talk of making an example of tax dodgers, EBT abusers etc.

Now it seems that they too are in on the fix and are compliant cogs in the Ranger support machine.

Is this then the real nub of the conspiracy (which this whole 20 year scenario has been, make no mistake)? Why would the supposedly impartial agents of our elected government do this? What is their motivation? Who do they really serve? And who can have directed or influenced them to save Rangers and why are they compliant?

This is now where our conversation will move onto, as it seems the battle for sporting integrity and a level playing field is over. R.I.P. Scottish Football, I knew you well. But no more.

I'm lucky in that I moved to Canada a few years ago so my spending on Scottish Football is now restricted to buying Hibs TV, getting stuff sent from the Hibs shop and the odd game when I'm over. but even that will be no more. I am certainly glad that i don't pay any taxes to the corrupt HMRC that's for sure.

Thankfully I got into Hockey & the Detroit Red Wings in a big way and that's where my focus will lie. It's not institutionally corrupt that's for sure and anyone can and does win, witness the surprises in this year's Stanley Cup Playoffs so far.

So after this years SCF, if anyone called Rangers is in the SPL next year, that's it for me. Sorry to be so negative but I'm so disgusted with the brazen sham in front of our eyes right now, I can hardly think straight for the anger.

[JeMeSouviens]

What about Craig Whyte's shares as well - was he not after £30m for them? Surely Miller can't buy the club without buying Whyte's shares?

He can buy the assets and his new club can use them. He can't fulfill his pie in the sky scheme to later resuscitate the old club and merge it with the new one but I don't imagine that would break his lil 'ol heart. :rolleyes:

[matty_f]

Firstly, you need to ignore all the pish you've read and heard from Scottish football pundits over the last weeks and months.

Professional football clubs in Scotland are companies. Rangers FC plc is Rangers, there is no legal entity other than that one. The club/company may be in turn owned by another company, eg. Hibernian Holdings owns 90% of HFC, Rangers FC Group owns 85% of RFC, but the simple fact is that the club and company are legally indistinguishable.

Now, as you say, if the company can satisfy its creditors and agree a CVA it can exit administration and go back to trading normally, nothing to see here for the SPL/SFA. This is what Motherwell did.

This is not what's being proposed for the Huns. Miller is proposing to start a new company, ie. a totally new club that has never played before. This club will buy the assets of RFC including stadium etc. and attempt to join the SPL in place of the existing club. It is up to the SFA and SPL to decide whether or not to allow this new club to take the place of the existing one. Whether or not the existing company is immediately liquidated or left to hang around as an empty shell for a while is completely irrelevant.

When Airdrieonians FC were liquidated, an attempt was made to form a newco to take their place. This was blocked and relegation from SFL Div 1 was cancelled. Gretna took the resulting free space in the league. Subsequently, an Airdrie supporting businessman bought Clydebank FC, moved them to Airdrie and changed their name, but legally Aidrie United FC is Clydebank FC, they are the same company.


He's not buying the club. He is buying the assets.

Cheers chaps, that makes sense to me now.

In that case, how can Miller possibly think that they can retain the history etc?

The SPL surely can't just waive Miller's club in then. That's a complete nonsense!

[CropleyWasGod]

Same question applies though chief - can companies be brought to task for doing that?

Thought you might ask that:greengrin

Basically, the assets will need to be seen to be sold at market value. What is "market value", though? RFC, the admins, Miller will argue that there is no other offer on the table, so MV basically means whatever anyone is prepared to pay for them. In this case, that's BM's £11m or whatever has been agreed.

If any creditor thinks the sale price is too low, I suppose they could apply to the Court to have the sale stopped. I am not sure that they will, though.... this is probably the best deal they are going to get.

[CropleyWasGod]

My one hope was that HMRC would be the spanner in their works, particularly all their talk of making an example of tax dodgers, EBT abusers etc.

Now it seems that they too are in on the fix and are compliant cogs in the Ranger support machine.

.

That remains to be seen. Despite the admins claims, I am not accepting that scenario until HMRC have actually spoken.

[down the slope]

Thompson interviews Paul Clark

http://www.channel4.com/news/miller-named-as-rangers-preferred-bidder

snake !.

[stokesmessiah]

It seems like the machinations are coming to their conclusion now and the result the cynics always expected is to come about. Rangers will escape with a single bound and continue as if nothing has happened. I always expected that SDM, CW, the SFA, SPL D*P ect al were corrupt from the start and had this fix lined up from the start.

My one hope was that HMRC would be the spanner in their works, particularly all their talk of making an example of tax dodgers, EBT abusers etc.

Now it seems that they too are in on the fix and are compliant cogs in the Ranger support machine.

Is this then the real nub of the conspiracy (which this whole 20 year scenario has been, make no mistake)? Why would the supposedly impartial agents of our elected government do this? What is their motivation? Who do they really serve? And who can have directed or influenced them to save Rangers and why are they compliant?

This is now where our conversation will move onto, as it seems the battle for sporting integrity and a level playing field is over. R.I.P. Scottish Football, I knew you well. But no more.

I'm lucky in that I moved to Canada a few years ago so my spending on Scottish Football is now restricted to buying Hibs TV, getting stuff sent from the Hibs shop and the odd game when I'm over. but even that will be no more. I am certainly glad that i don't pay any taxes to the corrupt HMRC that's for sure.

Thankfully I got into Hockey & the Detroit Red Wings in a big way and that's where my focus will lie. It's not institutionally corrupt that's for sure and anyone can and does win, witness the surprises in this year's Stanley Cup Playoffs so far.

So after this years SCF, if anyone called Rangers is in the SPL next year, that's it for me. Sorry to be so negative but I'm so disgusted with the brazen sham in front of our eyes right now, I can hardly think straight for the anger.

I think the they were always likely to end up back in the SPL but if they get away without sanctions then i am with you. I hope to F*** that the SFA dont buckle and stick to their fines and transfer embargo. Provided that is that the embargo goes with whatever company RFC is trading out of.

Can someone confirm or deny if that is attached to the licence or the company?

[JeMeSouviens]

That remains to be seen. Despite the admins claims, I am not accepting that scenario until HMRC have actually spoken.

Indeed ...


alex thomson ‏ @alextomo

HMRC on poss Rangers takeover "We will consider our position when any package is put to us."

[blindsummit]

That remains to be seen. Despite the admins claims, I am not accepting that scenario until HMRC have actually spoken.

I do hope you are right CWG. I'm just in such a pissy mood with the crap being spouted by the meeja and D&P etc that I'm at a low point.

[JeMeSouviens]

Cheers chaps, that makes sense to me now.

In that case, how can Miller possibly think that they can retain the history etc?

The SPL surely can't just waive Miller's club in then. That's a complete nonsense!

:top marks

[blindsummit]

Thompson interviews Paul Clark

http://www.channel4.com/news/miller-named-as-rangers-preferred-bidder

snake !.

Unfortunately the normally excellent Thommo missed an open goal. Clark stated that D&P's job was to "protect the football club by transferring it to a new company" or somsuch. If I had been Thommo I would have said "oh that's funny, because I thought your job was to protect the creditors?".

[millarco]

Unfortunately the normally excellent Thommo missed an open goal. Clark stated that D&P's job was to "protect the football club by transferring it to a new company" or somsuch. If I had been Thommo I would have said "oh that's funny, because I thought your job was to protect the creditors?".

:agree: The same with the BBC interview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17943429) where he repeatedly refers to the priority being keeping the club going.

I thought on the open market the players/Ibrox/Murray Park etc could generate more than the £11m they're talking about for creditors, unless they are guaranteed a slice of any future income (unlikely).

[CropleyWasGod]

:agree: The same with the BBC interview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17943429) where he repeatedly refers to the priority being keeping the club going.

I thought on the open market the players/Ibrox/Murray Park etc could generate more than the £11m they're talking about for creditors, unless they are guaranteed a slice of any future income (unlikely).

What is the open market, though? If Miller is the only person interested in buying those assets, the £11m is market value.

[HibeeMG]

Hopefully someone can help me here.

As I understand it, the assets will be 'sold' by the OldCo to the NewCo. The value placed on these assets are not market value but are the value placed on them by the buyer.

This doesn't get the best result for the creditors as they don't know if the assets would have brought in more cash by being placed on the open market.

Why would the creditors not ask for the assets to be placed on sale to everyone?

If the NewCo bid for each asset is the highest then so be it but who knows what building developer or supermarket chain might bid for Murray Park etc.

[johnbc70]

Time for UEFA or FIFA to step in here and take over this mess. They must have some power?

[millarco]

What is the open market, though? If Miller is the only person interested in buying those assets, the £11m is market value.

Fair enough with Ibrox and Murray Park, but what about the players?

[Seveno]

James Cook on BBC news has just quoted HMRC as saying ' We have agreed nothing '.

[speedy_gonzales]

Ach, the whole sorry affair has just jumped the shark.
A statement in the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9243389/Rangers-takeover-preferred-bidder-Bill-Miller-could-buy-Ibrox-outfit-by-end-of-the-season-say-administrators.html) by Bill Miller included the line
"I respect the club as one of the world's great sporting institutions and one of the UK's most venerable football clubs.",
NOW, being a Hibby I don't profess to be the brightest, but my understanding of the word venerable is something akin to someone or something that commands respect through wisdom or by virtue of character. Rangers, by virtue of CHARACTER, after the way they have conducted their business and the subsequent mess they have found themselves.

IS SOMEONE TAKING THE P!$$???

[Jim44]

Yep, that's a big issue but nobody can do anything about that until it happens, if it happens.



I agree, but playing devil's advocate here, if HMRC agree the CVA and Rangers repay whatever in the pound, that's the same as many businesses who find themselves in the position of having to agree structured and partial debt repayments. That's between HMRC and Rangers, rather than the SPL (though IIRC, the SPL want to make being on time and up to date with tax payments part something that's punishable if it's not adhered to - it was in the proposals that are being delayed as far as I remember).

Is this deferral not just a ploy by the SPL to allow today's events to happen, thereby allowing Rangers to slip back unscathed and not subject to any sanctions eventually voted on by the cowardly and self-interested club bosses including ours?

[CropleyWasGod]

James Cook on BBC news has just quoted HMRC as saying ' We have agreed nothing '.

I would be surprised if HMRC even said that.

[CropleyWasGod]

Fair enough with Ibrox and Murray Park, but what about the players?

What are they worth? Whatever anyone is prepared to pay a club that is struggling to pay its own bills, that's how much. Next to nowt.

[millarco]

What are they worth? Whatever anyone is prepared to pay a club that is struggling to pay its own bills, that's how much. Next to nowt.

Possibly but competition can drive up the price. I'm sure West Brom were being quoted a couple of million each for McGregor and Naismith, and Davis/Goian/Edu/Whittaker should have a few teams interested in them. I guess this would all be dependent on the valuations supposedly inserted in their revised contracts, which may render my opinion a total nonsense!

The PFA I think still believe that the contracts are only applicable to the oldco, in which case it would be a free-for-all and we'd see how many players 'don't do walking away'.

[Mon Dieu4]

Having just seen it all on the news sounds like d&p are waffling nonsense and all that has happened is a preferred bidder has been named

[blindsummit]

James Cook on BBC news has just quoted HMRC as saying ' We have agreed nothing '.

So D&P are lying. jeezus h cristos, what a parcel of rouges. They do have brazen balls of brass though I'll give them that.

[blindsummit]

Ach, the whole sorry affair has just jumped the shark.
A statement in the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9243389/Rangers-takeover-preferred-bidder-Bill-Miller-could-buy-Ibrox-outfit-by-end-of-the-season-say-administrators.html) by Bill Miller included the line
"I respect the club as one of the world's great sporting institutions and one of the UK's most venerable football clubs.",
NOW, being a Hibby I don't profess to be the brightest, but my understanding of the word venerable is something akin to someone or something that commands respect through wisdom or by virtue of character. Rangers, by virtue of CHARACTER, after the way they have conducted their business and the subsequent mess they have found themselves.

IS SOMEONE TAKING THE P!$$???

Doesn't he mean "venereal" ?

[jgl07]

What are they worth? Whatever anyone is prepared to pay a club that is struggling to pay its own bills, that's how much. Next to nowt.

Most of the players will probably be able to walk when the transfer window opens and the wage cut deal ends.

Even if they are not technically able to become free agents they could refuse and transfers until they were freed.

Miller is hinting at cost cutting so any of the players with a value on the transfer market will have to be released as they are on high wages.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Having just seen it all on the news sounds like d&p are waffling nonsense and all that has happened is a preferred bidder has been named

:agree:

The only disturbing thing is this alleged assurance that Rangers will stay in the SPL no matter what. Most likely it was Neil Doncaster who gave that assurance. Under what authority did he give it?

[Jim44]

In the BBC report 'portrait' of Miller, they failed to mention the dodgy and IIRC possibly illegal ( allegedly) episode with an American sports institution about 8 years ago ( I'm sure there's a link to the story not far back on this thread).

[grunt]

:agree: The same with the BBC interview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17943429) where he repeatedly refers to the priority being keeping the club going.

I thought on the open market the players/Ibrox/Murray Park etc could generate more than the £11m they're talking about for creditors, unless they are guaranteed a slice of any future income (unlikely).


What is the open market, though? If Miller is the only person interested in buying those assets, the £11m is market value.

I agree with millarco; how can the £11m - and it won't be £11m by the time D&P get their paws on their cash - be the best deal for creditors, when the administrators have not even tried to look at selling the club on a breakup basis? Surely the players and Moray Park between them would attract more than that? The D&P guy said twice that the key imperative was to keep the club going. Heartily fed up tonight. Both as a taxpayer and a football fan. A black day.

[HibeeMG]

Hopefully someone can help me here.

As I understand it, the assets will be 'sold' by the OldCo to the NewCo. The value placed on these assets are not market value but are the value placed on them by the buyer.

This doesn't get the best result for the creditors as they don't know if the assets would have brought in more cash by being placed on the open market.

Why would the creditors not ask for the assets to be placed on sale to everyone? :confused:

If the NewCo bid for each asset is the highest then so be it but who knows what building developer or supermarket chain might bid for Murray Park etc.

Nobody?

[grunt]

Most of the players will probably be able to walk when the transfer window opens and the wage cut deal ends.
Even if they are not technically able to become free agents they could refuse and transfers until they were freed.

Well that torpedoes my plan.

[grunt]

Nobody?
I agree with you. Seems like a stitch up.

[grunt]

alex thomson‏@alextomo
At least one key player say to me the Miller deal won't happen. It's desperate administrators trying to flush Miller out.

[ancienthibby]

Nobody?


Mr HibeeMG,

You have answered your own question!

If there are no other bidders, then the value is determined by that best bid.

There has been a huge amount of time for bidders to come out of the woodwork.

If they don't (as has been the case) then the market value has been established.:agree:

[CropleyWasGod]

Nobody?

About 100 pages ago the marketability of the properties was discussed . Ibrox is partly listed and Murray Park has restrictions on its use.

[HibeeMG]

Mr HibeeMG,

You have answered your own question!

If there are no other bidders, then the value is determined by that best bid.

There has been a huge amount of time for bidders to come out of the woodwork.

If they don't (as has been the case) then the market value has been established.:agree:

The assets haven't been put up for sale though. If they had been then the market value would be established.

Bidders have only been bidding for the club not the assets. Interested parties haven't had a chance to bid on the assets as they didn't know they were up for sale!

[grunt]

Can the creditors block this sale to Miller?

[ancienthibby]

Nobody?

To add to what I said before, Murray Park does not have the value you might think, as has been said a number of times before on this thread!

The land on which on which it has been built does not have planning permission for houses, so therefore it's best suited for a footie club or a fairground!!:greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

In the BBC report 'portrait' of Miller, they failed to mention the dodgy and IIRC possibly illegal ( allegedly) episode with an American sports institution about 8 years ago ( I'm sure there's a link to the story not far back on this thread).

Yeah I heard the same on the radio. . Unfit and improper ?

[HibeeMG]

About 100 pages ago the marketability of the properties was discussed . Ibrox is partly listed and Murray Park has restrictions on its use.

I may have missed that as I'm sure I've slept since! :wink:

At the time though, the marketability of the assets wasn't as important as it is now. As it is, the 'sale' of these assets to the NewCo is the only cash that creditors will see through a CVA. Wouldn't it be prudent to maximise this cash-pot by putting the assets on the open market?

Like I said earlier, if the NewCo bid is the highest bidder then so be it. If, however, competition from supermarket chains or property developers push up the market value then that is better for the creditors (you and me included).

[HibeeMG]

To add to what I said before, Murray Park does not have the value you might think, as has been said a number of times before on this thread!

The land on which on which it has been built does not have planning permission for houses, so therefore it's best suited for a footie club or a fairground!!:greengrin

So, it is just assumed that nobody would want to put a bid in for that land then?

[blindsummit]

I am starting to feel a wee bit better after seeing some of the statements coming out on rangerstaxcase and from Alex Thomson. Perhaps HMRC are still going to be the saviours of scottish football after all....

[ScottB]

alex thomson‏@alextomo

So, he (the only normal media source with listening to on this) seems to be suggesting this is already dead in the water...

If we assume that happens, Duff & Dumbass have already said liquidation is worth more than the BK bid. Would we see Rangers liquidated with no newco standing by to pick at the carcass?

[Matty_Jack04]

@alextomo: HMRC (taxman) on Rangers - we have had no involvement at all in this takeover to date

There's maybe a lot of hot air being blown here but if this happens I'm done with it the SPL can rot in its own **** as far as I'm concerned

[ancienthibby]

So, it is just assumed that nobody would want to put a bid in for that land then?


Not assumed.

I have not seen a bus queue outside Govan full of bidders for Murray Park or anywhere else.

They have had more than eight weeks to show their faces.

They are still posted missing.:agree:

[Twa Cairpets]

alex thomson‏@alextomo

More from Tomo:


alex thomson ‏ @alextomo
Am told Bill Miller has no passport and has never seen a soccerball game, let alone one played by the Glasgow of Rangers


alex thomson ‏ @alextomo
... suffice to say nobody in Scottish football should bet a Tennessee cent on this happening as planned


alex thomson ‏ @alextomo
HMRC (taxman) on Rangers - we have had no involvement at all in this takeover to date...
...That was direct quote from HMRC cleared via their lead officer on Rangers

D+P pretty much shown to have been lying through their teeth then.

[Matty_Jack04]

So, he (the only normal media source with listening to on this) seems to be suggesting this is already dead in the water...

If we assume that happens, Duff & Dumbass have already said liquidation is worth more than the BK bid. Would we see Rangers liquidated with no newco standing by to pick at the carcass?

BK would snap or attempt to snap up the oldco license and begin from div 3? debt free punishment free but with no history and an auction style race for stadium and training ground? not a professional opinion just a guess

[HibeeMG]

Not assumed.

I have not seen a bus queue outside Govan full of bidders for Murray Park or anywhere else.

They have had more than eight weeks to show their faces.

They are still posted missing.:agree:

The land/properties haven't been up for sale though. As soon as they are, you might see some showing their faces. Just the possibility that there may be competition for these assets should be enough to put them on public sale.

[down-the-slope]

This (Bill Miller) wont happen...

Way too many hurdles - he is just looking for assets at a knock down...HMRC won't dance to his tune..

IF he were to get along the road - buying assets - do Rangers stupid fans not realise that there is no chance of 'cleaning up' Old Co.....and he would just give it ....sorry I tried ...not my fault....others wouldn't play....

Meanwhile NewCo is playing and generating money for his £11m investment and making a nice return thank you very much (thanks to an easy passage back into SPL)....Bang goes history etc etc....no skin of his nose.

I do wonder whether UEFA will view this as liquidation by back door and exclude for 3 years anyway...

As I said never going to happen - but why would they (fans) think there was any pure motive.....

[ancienthibby]

The land/properties haven't been up for sale though. As soon as they are, you might see some showing their faces. Just the possibility that there may be competition for these assets should be enough to put them on public sale.

If I properly understand today's developments re Bill Millar, then the assets you refer to will not be available for sale, as they will have already been sold to one Wild Bill M!!

In all the warm words of WBM re Rangers, not a single word about the huge number of creditors being stuffed!.

(Then, of course, there's the vast number of redundancies necessary to meet his programme of fiscal prudence!!)

[Dashing Bob S]

About 100 pages ago the marketability of the properties was discussed . Ibrox is partly listed and Murray Park has restrictions on its use.

Highbury Stadium had a similar designation, but it is now flats. The retention of the older part of the stadium as the entrance to the new housing development proved popular with buyers. Islington is obviously a million miles away from Govan in terms of marketability. However, the Govan area now has BBC and several independent film production and other blue-chip creative companies based in the town hall and around. One of the obstacles to the continued gentrification of the area, however, is the presence of the football club. That obstacle would be removed if the club no longer played there.

I would be very surprised if several property development companies weren't looking at Ibrox Stadium with interest, and I've no doubt that some of them would be in a position to put in a better offer for those particular assets that Millers shabby newco.

There is also the HMRC to consider. They haven't expressed any view on those pathetic shenanigans yet, but I've a feeling they will, and they will be far less inclined to roll over than the Scottish governmental and footballing authorities.

[greenginger]

The land/properties haven't been up for sale though. As soon as they are, you might see some showing their faces. Just the possibility that there may be competition for these assets should be enough to put them on public sale.


What does scrap steel fetch per tonne just now ? There must be a good few hundred tonnes of the stuff in the Ibrox stands. Murray Metals could get in a bidding war with Daltons and force the price up for the creditors.

See Duff and Duffer, this administration business is easy if you act on behalf of the creditors rather than your own glory.

[ScottB]

Can you imagine the reaction to buying Ibrox or Murray Park? The morons would probably start suicide bombing!

[Jim44]

In the BBC report 'portrait' of Miller, they failed to mention the dodgy and IIRC possibly illegal ( allegedly) episode with an American sports institution about 8 years ago ( I'm sure there's a link to the story not far back on this thread).


Yeah I heard the same on the radio. . Unfit and improper ?

And here it is. http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte...1/daily36.html Would this not come to light during due diligence?

PS link not working will try again

[Jim44]

And here it is. http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte...1/daily36.html Would this not come to light during due diligence?

PS link not working will try again

Hope this works http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stories/2004/03/01/daily36.html

[TheEastTerrace]

Having just scrolled the rangerstaxcase and Alex Thomson twitter accounts, I feel slightly more reassured that Wild Bill won't get this plan through. Thomo's interview with Paul Clark made my blood boil; sporting integrity? Ach who cares as long as the football club is saved.

However, my immediate concern is Neil Doncaster. Appears this guy wants Rangers admonished and playing in the SPL no matter what. This is where we need to put pressure on the football authorities. After listening to him interviewed on sportsound this week, I'm pretty sure he would be delighted if Wild Bill's plan got through, albeit with a token slap on the wrist. This incompetent rode into the country declaring how he would change the game for the better of everyone who wanted to follow football in Scotland and encourage new groups of supporters to attend. Well, his true colours have been pinned to the mast for everyone to see now.

[Jim44]

Having just scrolled the rangerstaxcase and Alex Thomson twitter accounts, I feel slightly more reassured that Wild Bill won't get this plan through. Thomo's interview with Paul Clark made my blood boil; sporting integrity? Ach who cares as long as the football club is saved.

However, my immediate concern is Neil Doncaster. Appears this guy wants Rangers admonished and playing in the SPL no matter what. This is where we need to put pressure on the football authorities. After listening to him interviewed on sportsound this week, I'm pretty sure he would be delighted if Wild Bill's plan got through, albeit with a token slap on the wrist. This incompetent rode into the country declaring how he would change the game for the better of everyone who wanted to follow football in Scotland and encourage new groups of supporters to attend. Well, his true colours have been pinned to the mast for everyone to see now.

His true colours have been quite clear for some time and the problem IMHO is not Doncaster but the other sheep in the SPL who seem unwilling to do anything about his 'would-be steamrollering' approach. These same sheep however also have their own greedy, self-interested motives which don't include justice, fairness and sporting integrity.

[TheEastTerrace]

His true colours have been quite clear for some time and the problem IMHO is not Doncaster but the other sheep in the SPL who seem unwilling to do anything about his 'would-be steamrollering' approach. These same sheep however also have their own greedy, self-interested motives which don't include justice, fairness and sporting integrity.

Wholeheartedly agree. The clubs cannot self-police themselves (as the SPL), and be trusted to keep the good of the game as paramount above their shareholder/owners' self interest. The sooner we adopt supporters' trusts or fan representation groups into positions of influence the better ala German model.

Tuesday was the first time I'd really heard Doncaster speak on the issue of RFC administration since the SPL went into hiding to start investigating the dual contracts and concoct these financial fair play proposals. It just rankled with me more than in previous times.

[grunt]

Thompson interviews Paul Clark

http://www.channel4.com/news/miller-named-as-rangers-preferred-bidder

snake !.
I certainly recommend that those interested in this topic should listen to Thomson's interview of the administrator Paul Clark.
Again he refers to monies coming to the oldco from litigation, so he is again hyping up the court case gainst Collyer Bristow.

Plus he implies that there may be additional court proceedings relating "possibly prior to the takeover". Does he mean SDM?

"No one should be under any illusion that the tax man will be paid in full [well I never!] but Miller's offer represents the best solution."

Dodges the questions about sporting integrity - effectively, "not my job".

"Give and take in discussions with the footballing authorities" - I wonder what the SPL took from the discussions.

I do feel rather dirty having watched that.

[jdships]

:agree:

The only disturbing thing is this alleged assurance that Rangers will stay in the SPL no matter what. Most likely it was Neil Doncaster who gave that assurance. Under what authority did he give it?


That's the question I would like answered !
If this is true it adds up to a total " whitewash" and the demise of justice, fairness and integrity in Scottish football.
It is almost a cheats charter !
The big question still is what part are HMR&C going to play in the final chapter ?
As I have posted before a friend is a senior official in that organisation , and while he refuses point blank to discuss RFC debt , he makes the point that after the Harry Redknapp/Portsmouth fiasco HMR&C will not be " caught out a second time " !!!
Do UEFA have any part to play in what " punishment" is dealt out to RFC ?
As for Mr Miller . Is he the true " White Knight in Shining Armour " ? If what we read tonight is correct his sporting business track record is somewhat dodgy to say the least.
There is also the problem with loss of European football revenue to take into consideration. I understand a sizeable figure was added to the
" estimated income" every season based on participation in group stages .

I for one think there is a lot more to happen /come out of this before season 2012/13 K.O :greengrin :rolleyes:

[jonty]

Rangers administrators in court tomorrow
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/05/03/rangers-adminstrators-in-court-friday-4th-may-before-lord-hodge/

for a 1 hr session.

Anyone have any idea what this is about?
(it was posted 3 pages ago but Matty has been asking questions since :greengrin)

[Jim44]

I certainly recommend that those interested in this topic should listen to Thomson's interview of the administrator Paul Clark.
Again he refers to monies coming to the oldco from litigation, so he is again hyping up the court case gainst Collyer Bristow.

Plus he implies that there may be additional court proceedings relating "possibly prior to the takeover". Does he mean SDM?

"No one should be under any illusion that the tax man will be paid in full [well I never!] but Miller's offer represents the best solution."

Dodges the questions about sporting integrity - effectively, "not my job".

"Give and take in discussions with the footballing authorities" - I wonder what the SPL took from the discussions.

I do feel rather dirty having watched that.


Would you buy a second hand car from Paul Clark? He comes across as being as dodgy as any of the other Govan charlatans.

[Brando7]

RIR Scottish Football :bye:

So let me ask this if there is a newco created, all assets moved over (players, murray park & ibrox) and are alloed to play next season in SPL that 3 years expulsion from europe ? yes? old co with debts & history do nothing until a CVA is agreed then if agreed BM moves old & new together to keep rangers history BUT would it not be the case of old joining new rather that new joining old, would they not require SPL apporoval to allow an old football club to keep it history mid season?

Assets are apparantly valued at £104 million + market value but BM can buy it all for £11million how that a good deal for the creditors? I hope they all reject a CVA n demand a fire sale of assets that bound to rake in more than £11 million?????