Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[JimBHibees]

I think UEFA/FIFA needs to be brought in on this one too. If the SFA needs to seek clarification over player's contracts and the New Football Club they can can enquire about the fraudulent players contracts at the same time.

Completely agree as the longer this goes on it is becoming clearer by the day that the Authorities in this country are petrified to make a decision which might punish Rangers appropriately.

[StevieC]

Wish they would just wave them back into the SPL so that I can buy a season ticket for St James Park and be done with it all.

Buy one anyway, that's what I've done.
Looking forward to some European football, which is more than any hun can do at the moment.

[JimBHibees]

Update on BBC blog by Chrismac - puts a different slant on things:


http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/2179094491/chrisNEW_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug)

#SPL source: Part of newco application for membership could depend on them taking responsibility for possible past transgressions. #Rangers @BBCchrismclaug (http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug) 32 minutes ago






Newco - Yes we will take responsibility.
SPL/SFA - No evidence of dual contracts.
Newco - Yippee, who do we play on Saturday.

[HibbySpurs]

Come on now fellas, we're all getting a bit pessimistic arent we:confused:

Any application to obtain a "share" in the SPL needs to be carried by an 8-4 majority as we know.....

IMVHO - the likelhood of clubs voting "NO" are this:

Hibs - 99.999999999%
Celtic - 95%
Aberdeen - 95%
Dundee Utd - 90%
Motherwell - 80%
Inverness - 65%
Hearts - 50%
St Mirren -50%
St Johnstone - 40%
Ross County - 20%
Kilmarnock - 10%
Rangers 1872 - 0.00000001% (always a chance)

With various fan groups from even the lower fancied teams on my list now ramping up support for a "no" vote (Hearts) my personal opinion is that "fan power" is going to hammer the nail in The Rangers Football Club 2012 coffin.

The punters on the side of right dont even need a majority here, just 5 of them to say bye bye, I think the top 4 will say "no" so it only takes a bout of conscience from one other chairman on the day to send them packing.

Keep the faith:aok:

[Twa Cairpets]

Exactly, absolutely no reason for this decision at this stage as it could effectively make the vote null and void in that if they are clearly found guilty then it would make the decision alot easier. That this hasnt happened means to me that the Authorities dont want a clear mandate to vote them out. Only in Scotland.

I think there is a flip of this though.

Any anti-Hun decision while there is still a lot of uncertainty is clearly going to be appealed by Mordor. While the appeal process trundles on - legal or administrative - you cant hoy the manky ******** off the cliff. Letting the non-football legalities play out is pretty important I'd sayto avoid making a decision although morally correct is legally challengeable.
That said, I think Doncaster is fud off the first water so maybe I'm giving him/them too much credit.

[Bighoose]

Chris McLaughlin‏@BBCchrismclaug#SPL (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23SPL) investigation into possible dual contracts at #Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23Rangers) to be put on hold until there's clarity over newco accountability. #BBCSport (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23BBCSport)

We're all going to be long in our graves before this is resolved :rolleyes:
Hopefully our great-grandchildren will keep the the thread alive until justice is served.

Sad but no one will be surprised by this annoucement. Spineless the lot of them.

[Terrymac]

Smith, the SFA, Everton and EBTs (http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=9568)Posted on 15 June, 2012 (http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=9568) by Paul67 (http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?author=2)
318 (http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=9568#comments)
Walter Smith was not named by BBC’s Mark Daly as a recipient of an Employee Benefit Trust in the recent documentary, however, before this matter is put to bed I expect more names to emerge. As soon as Smith makes himself available to a proper journalist he will be asked:

Did he receive EBT loan payments from Rangers?

If so:

Did he repay those loans or hold his cash while the club ran out of money and died?

Was he in receipt of a letter from Rangers confirming he was not required to repay?

Did his then employers, the Scottish FA, know he was perhaps receiving money from a member club while employed by them?

Are SFA employees contractually inhibited from taking payments from a member club or required to inform the SFA board of any payments received by a member club?

Did his earlier employers, Everton FC, know if he was receiving money from another club while employed by them?

Was Smith contractually inhibited from taking payments from another club or required to inform Everton of any payments received from another club?

As manager of Rangers, was he involved negotiations with players who had EBTs or was he another one who concentrated on administrative and legislative duties?

Was he one of the men SFA president, Campbell Ogilvie, suggested failed to reveal side contracts to the Rangers board?

Rangers’ liquidators, BDO, will forensically pour over most of these questions, so Smith’s answers will be verifiable.

No one who played an active part in Rangers EBT scandal will come out of this clean. The ramifications multiply if Rangers were discretely paying any senior employee of another club.

I simply cannot imagine the justification for a member club discretely paying a senior employee of the SFA.

[HibbySpurs]

I think there is a flip of this though.

Any anti-Hun decision while there is still a lot of uncertainty is clearly going to be appealed by Mordor. While the appeal process trundles on - legal or administrative - you cant hoy the manky ******** off the cliff. Letting the non-football legalities play out is pretty important I'd sayto avoid making a decision although morally correct is legally challengeable.
That said, I think Doncaster is fud off the first water so maybe I'm giving him/them too much credit.

Hang on, have I missed something? We are talking about the vote to admit The Rangers Football Club into the SPL?

The share that Rangers 1872 owns is effectively useless as that organisation is going to be liquidated, all the wrong doings were by this organisation. The Rangers Fottbal Club 2012 is applying for membership to the SPL organisation as NEW COMPANY. The SPL as a private organisation have the right to either grant membership OR refuse it.

The Rangers Football Club can not appeal this decision on the grounds that Rangers 1872 were later found "not guilty" as they are two completely sperate entities.

BTW - If I've jumped in on anothe rissue and through my laziness of not being bothered to read the relevant comments I apologise and accept my egg on face :greengrin

[BarneyK]

Update on BBC blog by Chrismac - puts a different slant on things:


http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/2179094491/chrisNEW_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug)

#SPL source: Part of newco application for membership could depend on them taking responsibility for possible past transgressions. #Rangers @BBCchrismclaug (http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug) 32 minutes ago






I find it remarkable that this even has to be said. So they are to be asked permission for a potential punishment?

[Paisley Hibby]

Come on now fellas, we're all getting a bit pessimistic arent we:confused:

Any application to obtain a "share" in the SPL needs to be carried by an 8-4 majority as we know.....

IMVHO - the likelhood of clubs voting "NO" are this:

Hibs - 99.999999999%
Celtic - 95%
Aberdeen - 95%
Dundee Utd - 90%
Motherwell - 80%
Inverness - 65%
Hearts - 50%
St Mirren -50%
St Johnstone - 40%
Ross County - 20%
Kilmarnock - 10%
Rangers 1872 - 0.00000001% (always a chance)

With various fan groups from even the lower fancied teams on my list now ramping up support for a "no" vote (Hearts) my personal opinion is that "fan power" is going to hammer the nail in The Rangers Football Club 2012 coffin.

The punters on the side of right dont even need a majority here, just 5 of them to say bye bye, I think the top 4 will say "no" so it only takes a bout of conscience from one other chairman on the day to send them packing.

Keep the faith:aok:

Hope you'rte right. However, I think there's more chance of the Oldco voting no than there is of Kilmarnock voting no :greengrin

[Caversham Green]

Chris McLaughlin‏@BBCchrismclaug#SPL (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23SPL) investigation into possible dual contracts at #Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23Rangers) to be put on hold until there's clarity over newco accountability. #BBCSport (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23BBCSport)

We're all going to be long in our graves before this is resolved :rolleyes:
Hopefully our great-grandchildren will keep the the thread alive until justice is served.


Update on BBC blog by Chrismac - puts a different slant on things:

http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/2179094491/chrisNEW_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug)
#SPL source: Part of newco application for membership could depend on them taking responsibility for possible past transgressions. #Rangers @BBCchrismclaug (http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug) 32 minutes ago




Right, looking for a better slant on this. Newco are within their legal rights to shed all responsibilities attached to oldco and if they do the SPL is wasting time and resources investigating the matter since there would be no-one to punish. If they can first establish that newco will accept the responsibilities of oldco as a condition of application for SPL membership they can then continue with the investigation and punish newco if oldco is found guilty. If newco won't accept those responsibilities they should have no chance of SPL membership. As I've said several times previously a guilty verdict on this matter should result in nothing less than expulsion from Scottish football so newco may not accept the conditions.

[BarneyK]

Right, looking for a better slant on this. Newco are within their legal rights to shed all responsibilities attached to oldco and if they do the SPL is wasting time and resources investigating the matter since there would be no-one to punish. If they can first establish that newco will accept the responsibilities of oldco as a condition of application for SPL membership they can then continue with the investigation and punish newco if oldco is found guilty. If newco won't accept those responsibilities they should have no chance of SPL membership. As I've said several times previously a guilty verdict on this matter should result in nothing less than expulsion from Scottish football so newco may not accept the conditions.

It absolutely has to be the primary condition on any application. The idea that The Rangers would be allowed to waive responsibility is frankly ludicrous. I'm sure they'll try, mind.

[Paisley Hibby]

Update on BBC blog by Chrismac - puts a different slant on things:


http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/2179094491/chrisNEW_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug)

#SPL source: Part of newco application for membership could depend on them taking responsibility for possible past transgressions. #Rangers @BBCchrismclaug (http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug) 32 minutes ago






If the source is right then this just shows that the SPL hasn't got a scooby about what it's doing. How can the Newco possibly agree to accept unknown punishments for something it has not been responsible for? The SPL sounds desperate to find a way they can keep the huns on board while having some kind of fig leaf that says they are being tough. They just need to man up and do the right thing.

[BarneyK]

If the source is right then this just shows that the SPL hasn't got a scooby about what it's doing. How can the Newco possibly agree to accept unknown punishments for something it has not been responsible for? The SPL sounds desperate to find a way they can keep the huns on board while having some kind of fig leaf that says they are being tough. They just need to man up and do the right thing.

It doesn't mean that they have to accept the punishment, it just means that they have to acknowledge that they are still under investigation. In other words, they cannae turn round and say it wuznae is, it was that Davie Murray and Craigie Whyte that did it...we're a brand new company you see! If they get found guilty, They can be punished, whilst they retain the right to greet, moan, and appeal until someone finally listens.

[Caversham Green]

It absolutely has to be the primary condition on any application. The idea that The Rangers would be allowed to waive responsibility is frankly ludicrous. I'm sure they'll try, mind.

I agree, but in strict legal terms they don't have to accept the burdens of the oldco - that's what the newco procedure is all about. We've already seen that this bunch of shysters aren't afraid to go to the civil courts after the event so the SPL needs to stitch up the responsibility tight right now. Remember, Rangers FC are already out of Europe for three, maybe four years now so they've got nothing to lose by playing silly buggers.

[BarneyK]

I agree, but in strict legal terms they don't have to accept the burdens of the oldco - that's what the newco procedure is all about. We've already seen that this bunch of shysters aren't afraid to go to the civil courts after the event so the SPL needs to stitch up the responsibility tight right now. Remember, Rangers FC are already out of Europe for three, maybe four years now so they've got nothing to lose by playing silly buggers.

Aye well it's simple enough, no agreement - no vote. I cannae see them seriously failing to agree with this. It just makes the floating voters job easier come the SPL share vote.

[PatHead]

What I can't understand is that decision shouldn't affect newco/oldco sanctions and no reason to hold up their enquiry. Whether they can be imposed on newco is the question but surely the investigation can carry on regardless in order they can set a procedure in place for Hearts/Celtic. Whoever is next.

[Spike Mandela]

Chris McLaughlin‏@BBCchrismclaug#SPL (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23SPL) investigation into possible dual contracts at #Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23Rangers) to be put on hold until there's clarity over newco accountability. #BBCSport (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23BBCSport)

We're all going to be long in our graves before this is resolved :rolleyes:
Hopefully our great-grandchildren will keep the the thread alive until justice is served.

Basically they are making it up as they go along and if Doncaster gets his wish it will be business as usal for the SPL with no fuss. It is shameful and incompetent that the SFA and SPL don't have ready made rules in place for the eventuality of a newco. UEFA have had rules in place for years and the template should be a straightforward copy.

Abdication of their responsibilities.

[PatHead]

I agree, but in strict legal terms they don't have to accept the burdens of the oldco - that's what the newco procedure is all about. We've already seen that this bunch of shysters aren't afraid to go to the civil courts after the event so the SPL needs to stitch up the responsibility tight right now. Remember, Rangers FC are already out of Europe for three, maybe four years now so they've got nothing to lose by playing silly buggers.

Rangers could also argue that if they accept the punishment then they should be entitled to their history back. We often say they can't pick and choose that they keep their history but don't accept punishment for Oldco. Suppose the reverse could be argued.

Only paying Devils advocate and these views do not represent my own.

[BarneyK]

Rangers could also argue that if they accept the punishment then they should be entitled to their history back. We often say they can't pick and choose that they keep their history but don't accept punishment for Oldco. Suppose the reverse could be argued.

Only paying Devils advocate and these views do not represent my own.

To be honest I would say fair enough to that. Sod their history, no obligation to accept a Newco back into the SPL, off to an SFL application with them. For me, this would be enough of a punishment for the club.

[Offside Trap]

What I can't understand is that decision shouldn't affect newco/oldco sanctions and no reason to hold up their enquiry. Whether they can be imposed on newco is the question but surely the investigation can carry on regardless in order they can set a procedure in place for Hearts/Celtic. Whoever is next.

:agree:
Agreed. Complete abdication of responsibility from SPL/Doncaster. For the sake of sporting integrity (irrespective of whether related to NewCo or OldCo), the SPL should be establishing whether the rules were broken and have a duty to tell the fans of every other SPL club whether they have been getting shafted by Huns for years on end. Zero accountability, corporate governance or leadership being shown.

The only hope is that the SPL have taken this decision in the knowledge that the NewCo Huns are going to get punted anyway through SFA...so it is all academic.

[PatHead]

To be honest I would say fair enough to that. Sod their history, no obligation to accept a Newco back into the SPL, off to an SFL application with them. For me, this would be enough of a punishment for the club.

Thats what should happen but this is Rangers we are talking about.

[Kaiser1962]

I'm actually saying the opposite of that. The Estimated Outcome Statement shows very clearly that the property is not included in the sale to newco, but the document as a whole and subsequent comments by D&P and others give the impression that the property is included. If the EOS part is not a mistake then D&P have been working very hard to convince creditors that a CVA was the best possible outcome whilst not revealing the whole story - that the properties were not a part of the Newco settlement.

The EOS was the document that was lodged the Court of Session was it not? I would not imagine they would take kindly to an explanaton of "oops, what are we like! (while laughing out loudly)?

[CropleyWasGod]

The EOS was the document that was lodged the Court of Session was it not? I would not imagine they would take kindly to an explanaton of "oops, what are we like! (while laughing out loudly)?

It was indeed.... the scamps. :rolleyes:

[Alan62]

Oldco. Newco. Legal this, rulebook that. Accuse, appeal. Claim, counter claim. This is all going to rumble on for years. Meanwhile, we'll have a football competition to get started in August. For me, it's completely inconceivable that this will be anything like sorted by the first Saturday of the season.

[hibbyfrankie]

Taken from Rangers tax case so it isn't my writing, However i thought it quite interesting although i dont know the accuracy. :greengrin

James Forrest (http://www.facebook.com/james.forrest.712) says:
15/06/2012 at 4:07 pm (http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/what-now-for-rangers/comment-page-40/#comment-111899)


82


1



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From the very beginning of the process the people who have been trying to keep the name of Rangers alive have been arguing three things:
1) The company which owns the club dies, not the club itself.
2) Therefore the club maintains its history, its players, its management team, its stadium, its colours … all of it.
3) The transfer of the SPL share is between one corporate entity and another … not a share being granted to a wholly new footballing entity.
Today the SPL is consulting its legal department – and I would presume for the first time since all this started – to ask that legal department if Rangers 2012 is eligible for punishments due to Rangers 1872.
For the first time ever, the SPL appears to be trying to ascertain, legally, whether one really can adopt the identity of the other. It is clear to me that if they come back and say yes then Rangers 2012 retains the history of Rangers 1872, and thereby has to take on board whichever punishments are open to that club. This would allow the SPL to strip them of trophies, relegate them etc, in keeping with their constitution should Rangers 2012 be allowed in the league in the first place. It would also mean SFA punishments would fall on the club for the same reasons.
If however, as I expect, the SPL legal team tells the league that the club which was formed in 1872 has expired, then we are in a whole new arena friends.
First, the club which won 54 titles (some tainted) and has the two Buckfast bottles on the jersey in honour of their two European final riots, is no more. History, club, name, goodwill, all of it will be erased the second the liquidation is official, and all of it dies.
It means Charles Green yesterday bought a training ground, a football ground, a name, the rights to Ally McCoist and Lee McCulloch’s contracts and …. nothing else.
The arguments over whether or not the History of Rangers can continue will be over.
Charles Green today confirmed that as of this moment the club he owns is not a member of the SPL or SFA, which is the first acknowledgment from inside Rangers that they are not one in the same … and if you thought the above was good, this is where the fun REALLY starts ….
Neil Doncaster has maintained the reason the SPL vote can allow a new Rangers is because this is nothing more than a transfer of shareholding between one corporate entity and another. It is clear that this will not be the case; that vote will NOT be about a “transfer” of share between corporate bodies at all … it will be an “allocation of share” to a completely new football club, founded less than a month before.
There is NO precedent for this happening … anywhere.
Right now he claims it requires an 8 – 4 vote for this to be accepted. Yes, maybe, in the context of a share transfer between companies, but we are talking about something requiring a “qualified resolution” here, a brand new club being allowed into the top league without any history of playing football … and this requires an 11 – 1 vote.
You cannot be a bit dead, any more than you can be a bit pregnant – thanks Phil Mac Giolla Bhain of that the other day – you are either one or you are the other. The SPL’s decision to discontinue this investigation until the proper facts of what Rangers 2012 REALLY is cannot have come at a worse time for the club. They cannot have the history and escape the punishment. If they are not entitled to the punishment they are technically, legally, commercially and utterly DEAD, DEAD, DEAD and Dundee AUTOMATICALLY should have been granted the place in the SPL yesterday as, and CHarles Green has confirmed this today, that league now has only 11 teams left in it.
Yes, someone will say that OldCo Rangers still holds the license, and are therefore in the league. Take a look at he SPL, SFA, UEFA and FIFA licensing criteria for a moment before you take that position.
OldCo Rangers does not meet the criteria for corporate structure, staff, facilities or financial to get ANY level of license at all. It owns nothing. It employs no-one. It, therefore, is not eligible for any license at all …
Today the SPL is an 11 team league; FACT.
All that remains is the final clarification of that, which, thanks to Neil Doncaster, we will have soon.

[blackpoolhibs]

Taken from Rangers tax case so it isn't my writing, However i thought it quite interesting although i dont know the accuracy. :greengrin

James Forrest (http://www.facebook.com/james.forrest.712) says:
15/06/2012 at 4:07 pm (http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/what-now-for-rangers/comment-page-40/#comment-111899)


82


1



Rate This

From the very beginning of the process the people who have been trying to keep the name of Rangers alive have been arguing three things:
1) The company which owns the club dies, not the club itself.
2) Therefore the club maintains its history, its players, its management team, its stadium, its colours … all of it.
3) The transfer of the SPL share is between one corporate entity and another … not a share being granted to a wholly new footballing entity.
Today the SPL is consulting its legal department – and I would presume for the first time since all this started – to ask that legal department if Rangers 2012 is eligible for punishments due to Rangers 1872.
For the first time ever, the SPL appears to be trying to ascertain, legally, whether one really can adopt the identity of the other. It is clear to me that if they come back and say yes then Rangers 2012 retains the history of Rangers 1872, and thereby has to take on board whichever punishments are open to that club. This would allow the SPL to strip them of trophies, relegate them etc, in keeping with their constitution should Rangers 2012 be allowed in the league in the first place. It would also mean SFA punishments would fall on the club for the same reasons.
If however, as I expect, the SPL legal team tells the league that the club which was formed in 1872 has expired, then we are in a whole new arena friends.
First, the club which won 54 titles (some tainted) and has the two Buckfast bottles on the jersey in honour of their two European final riots, is no more. History, club, name, goodwill, all of it will be erased the second the liquidation is official, and all of it dies.
It means Charles Green yesterday bought a training ground, a football ground, a name, the rights to Ally McCoist and Lee McCulloch’s contracts and …. nothing else.
The arguments over whether or not the History of Rangers can continue will be over.
Charles Green today confirmed that as of this moment the club he owns is not a member of the SPL or SFA, which is the first acknowledgment from inside Rangers that they are not one in the same … and if you thought the above was good, this is where the fun REALLY starts ….
Neil Doncaster has maintained the reason the SPL vote can allow a new Rangers is because this is nothing more than a transfer of shareholding between one corporate entity and another. It is clear that this will not be the case; that vote will NOT be about a “transfer” of share between corporate bodies at all … it will be an “allocation of share” to a completely new football club, founded less than a month before.
There is NO precedent for this happening … anywhere.
Right now he claims it requires an 8 – 4 vote for this to be accepted. Yes, maybe, in the context of a share transfer between companies, but we are talking about something requiring a “qualified resolution” here, a brand new club being allowed into the top league without any history of playing football … and this requires an 11 – 1 vote.
You cannot be a bit dead, any more than you can be a bit pregnant – thanks Phil Mac Giolla Bhain of that the other day – you are either one or you are the other. The SPL’s decision to discontinue this investigation until the proper facts of what Rangers 2012 REALLY is cannot have come at a worse time for the club. They cannot have the history and escape the punishment. If they are not entitled to the punishment they are technically, legally, commercially and utterly DEAD, DEAD, DEAD and Dundee AUTOMATICALLY should have been granted the place in the SPL yesterday as, and CHarles Green has confirmed this today, that league now has only 11 teams left in it.
Yes, someone will say that OldCo Rangers still holds the license, and are therefore in the league. Take a look at he SPL, SFA, UEFA and FIFA licensing criteria for a moment before you take that position.
OldCo Rangers does not meet the criteria for corporate structure, staff, facilities or financial to get ANY level of license at all. It owns nothing. It employs no-one. It, therefore, is not eligible for any license at all …
Today the SPL is an 11 team league; FACT.
All that remains is the final clarification of that, which, thanks to Neil Doncaster, we will have soon.


:top marks:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Alan62]

Pretty much what I've been saying all along. They can't survive because they're already dead.

[Offside Trap]

News re SPL fixtures. Team X to be included. Surely Team Ex would have been better?

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/106461-spl-considering-replacing-rangers-with-team-x-on-201213-fixture-list/

:greengrin

[hibs0666]

News re SPL fixtures. Team X to be included. Surely Team Ex would have been better?

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/106461-spl-considering-replacing-rangers-with-team-x-on-201213-fixture-list/

:greengrin

Team X is an anagram of Tax Me apparently. :wink:

[Paisley Hibby]

Here's what I think SHOULD happen

New Rangers application for place in SPL is rejected on grounds of sporting integrity and to act as a deterrent to other clubs trying to do the same in future.

SPL gives their place to Dunfermline (or maybe Dundee)

New Rangers apply for the vacant place in SFL Division 3

They almost certainly get accepted and start there as a completely new entity - with no history and no punishments

SPL continues its investigation of Old Rangers double contracts

SPL finds Old Rangers guilty and the record books are amended to strip Old Rangers of all titles that they won when cheating.

SFA and SFL use the findings from the SPL investigation to do the same regarding any Old Rangers Scottish Cup and League Cup wins during those seasons.

Simple.

[snooky]

Team X is an anagram of Tax Me apparently. :wink:

.....or Tax? Em? :hmmm:

[greenlex]

News re SPL fixtures. Team X to be included. Surely Team Ex would have been better?

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/106461-spl-considering-replacing-rangers-with-team-x-on-201213-fixture-list/

:greengrin

I want to know what SKY are saying to this. I mean how can they arrange TV schedules not knowing what's going on. Disgraceful.

[HibeeDave]

The SPL are complete idiots.

If Rangers do not get into the SPL then Dundee get promoted.
Dundee and Dundee United in the same league will mean the season fixtures need to keep them opposite each other in terms of when Dundee are at home, United are away, the same rule happens to us and hertz and also Celtic and Rangers.
The SPL cannot simply put Team X in as it'll cause chaos if the wrong team turns out to be Team X.

Unless of course it's pre-determined.

[tamig]

Team X is an anagram of Tax Me apparently. :wink:

And Charles Green is a Rangers Leech.

Apologies if already posted.

[Offside Trap]

The SPL are complete idiots.

If Rangers do not get into the SPL then Dundee get promoted.
Dundee and Dundee United in the same league will mean the season fixtures need to keep them opposite each other in terms of when Dundee are at home, United are away, the same rule happens to us and hertz and also Celtic and Rangers.
The SPL cannot simply put Team X in as it'll cause chaos if the wrong team turns out to be Team X.

Unless of course it's pre-determined.

I would expect every time Team X are at home in the fixtures, both Celtic and Dundee United will be shown away from home. That way you can swap in either the Huns or Dundee for Team X. :dunno:

[HibeeDave]

I would expect every time Team X are at home in the fixtures, both Celtic and Dundee United will be shown away from home. That way you can swap in either the Huns or Dundee for Team X. :dunno:

Pretty simple when explained like that

[Brando7]

Anyone know if Duff and Phelps submitted the overdue accounts in order to fulfill membership criteria for next season. was suppose to be today

[hibbyfrankie]

Anyone know if Duff and Phelps submitted the overdue accounts in order to fulfill membership criteria for next season. was suppose to be today


Not really sure that it matters as rangers have sold the stadium and brand. They can no longer fulfill membership criteria and can no longer field a team for next year. :thumbsup:

[Don Giovanni]

Question:

As RFC will soon cease to exist are the terms Old Firm / Auld Firm / OF / OFGTF (that yins my personal favourite by the way) now redundant?

And, what collective term should be used to describe Celtcfootballclub and THE Rangers FC?

[greenginger]

Not really sure that it matters as rangers have sold the stadium and brand. They can no longer fulfill membership criteria and can no longer field a team for next year. :thumbsup:


It could matter if the rules were properly enforced. The dead Rangers should lose their SPL share before they have a chance to transfer it to the New Club.

[hibbyfrankie]

It could matter if the rules were properly enforced. The dead Rangers should lose their SPL share before they have a chance to transfer it to the New Club.

If the rules were properly enforced then it is already clear Rangers don't meet the rest of the criteria accounts or not.

[CropleyWasGod]

If the rules were properly enforced then it is already clear Rangers don't meet the rest of the criteria accounts or not.

Unfortunately, there is precedent, in that Hearts have also been granted their license, without meeting the criteria.

[hibbyfrankie]

Unfortunately, there is precedent, in that Hearts have also been granted their license, without meeting the criteria.

Bloody Yams :greengrin

[franck sauzee]

My mate works at The Hilton at Edinburgh Airport and said that Rangers had booked out a meeting room, Charles Green and Andrew Ellis turned up shortly followed by our Rod . Seriously doubt that he's at the windup as he doesn't support a Scottish team. Wonder what they discussed? Hope Rod sent them packing!

[johnbc70]

My mate works at The Hilton at Edinburgh Airport and said that Rangers had booked out a meeting room, Charles Green and Andrew Ellis turned up shortly followed by our Rod . Seriously doubt that he's at the windup as he doesn't support a Scottish team. Wonder what they discussed? Hope Rod sent them packing!

I can see this being true as Greene will no doubt be making his way around all SPL clubs to plead his case and meet each chairmen face to face. He would be silly not to meet each and every one of them. I think of all the SPL chairmen Rod has been the most vocal about the need for sporting integrity so they have probably started with the hardest nut to crack first.

[Andy Bee]

I can see this being true as Greene will no doubt be making his way around all SPL clubs to plead his case and meet each chairmen face to face. He would be silly not to meet each and every one of them. I think of all the SPL chairmen Rod has been the most vocal about the need for sporting integrity so they have probably started with the hardest nut to crack first.

Rod was only there to stock up on towels and toiletries :agree:

[Andy74]

Rod is at the Euros is he not?

[jgl07]

I can see this being true as Greene will no doubt be making his way around all SPL clubs to plead his case and meet each chairmen face to face. He would be silly not to meet each and every one of them. I think of all the SPL chairmen Rod has been the most vocal about the need for sporting integrity so they have probably started with the hardest nut to crack first.

His name is Green and not Greene.

[VickMackie]

Good tactic if true. It's easier to convince them individually than as a collective.

[franck sauzee]

His name is Green and not Greene.

Does it really matter? we knew who he meant

[johnbc70]

His name is Green and not Greene.

Please forgive me, what a terrible blunder I made!:rolleyes:

[BEEJ]

Please forgive me, what a terrible blunder I made!:rolleyes:
:slipper:

[Brando7]

Not really sure that it matters as rangers have sold the stadium and brand. They can no longer fulfill membership criteria and can no longer field a team for next year. :thumbsup:

Im sure it will as this is the membership they are trying to transfer is it not?

[tamsonsbairn]

My mate works at The Hilton at Edinburgh Airport and said that Rangers had booked out a meeting room, Charles Green and Andrew Ellis turned up shortly followed by our Rod . Seriously doubt that he's at the windup as he doesn't support a Scottish team. Wonder what they discussed? Hope Rod sent them packing!

Nice try Yak, Oor Rod is at the Euro finals with the SFA/SPL ? is he no. :giruy:

[hibbyfrankie]

Im sure it will as this is the membership they are trying to transfer is it not?

Yes it is.
I guess what i mean is that if your already overlooking the fact that Rangers have no staff, no youth system, no stadium and can't fulfill next seasons fixtures then why worry about there accounts being filed.
Its just another rule to break.

[greenginger]

Thinking about it a bit more, it was the Dead Rangers Accounts to June 2011 that had not been provided and that was the reason for the extension to 15th June to allow time for these accounts to be submitted and permission for the club to be in the SPL if the CVA had been successful.

If the accounts have not been submitted by the deadline there should be no SPL share available for Dead Hun to transfer to the New Hun Club.

There is no excuse whatsoever for the club accounts to June 2011 not to be provided.

[SurferRosa]

Thinking about it a bit more, it was the Dead Rangers Accounts to June 2011 that had not been provided and that was the reason for the extension to 15th June to allow time for these accounts to be submitted and permission for the club to be in the SPL if the CVA had been successful.

If the accounts have not been submitted by the deadline there should be no SPL share available for Dead Hun to transfer to the New Hun Club.

There is no excuse whatsoever for the club accounts to June 2011 not to be provided.

So Old Cheats have no share to transfer to NewCo.....hmm, let me guess....will this be conveniently ignored by our media and football authorities? :agree:

If i was the Dundee chairman i would already be consulting my clubs lawyers...

[jgl07]

Does it really matter? we knew who he meant

Too true Valter Smythe will be in control very soon.

[monktonharp]

Please forgive me, what a terrible blunder I made!:rolleyes: terrible grammar. should it not be what a terrible blunder I've made!:rolleyes:

[hibbyfrankie]

So Old Cheats have no share to transfer to NewCo.....hmm, let me guess....will this be conveniently ignored by our media and football authorities? :agree:

If i was the Dundee chairman i would already be consulting my clubs lawyers...


Not really because this rules state at article:
A2.7 The Board may in its absolute discretion waive, relax or grant a period of grace in respect of any Club's or Candidate Club’s requirement to comply with any part of the Membership Criteria and/or Rules A2.6 and H6.1.

so basically the SPL can do what it likes.

It also states that members must be members of the SFA although then further says membership confers SFA membership. :confused:

SFA membership cant be transferred and to be eligible for membership you need 3 years accounts which newco don't have. So the only way into the SFA is by the SPL.

The whole affair is rather confusing and i wonder how many rules will be bent or interpreted in the hope of performing necromancy.

[franck sauzee]

Nice try Yak, Oor Rod is at the Euro finals with the SFA/SPL ? is he no. :giruy:

Can assure you I'm no yak! You don't seem so sure Rod is at the Euro Finals. I actually have no idea where he is, my mate text me saying Rangers had booked a meeting room out and Rod turned up. He might be talking pish but I doubt he would as he has no motive to do so. Anyway isn't there an SPL vote coming up on Monday? Surely Rod would be at that? No?

[Geo_1875]

Team X is an anagram of Tax Me apparently. :wink:

Should that not be, Tax? Me?

[Lungo--Drom]

Yesterday, Friday, at 0455 in the morning, I turned off the motorway to get some grub out of Asda Govan. To get back on the M8 you have to then go along Edmiston Drive to the south west corner of Greyskull, then take a right at the roundabout and cut over to the slip road back onto the motorway.

Anyway, at the west end of the Greyskull buildings there were about 25 to 30 guys in what looked like G4S high visibility yellow coats, going in and out doorways carrying stuff and there were at least five unmarked white Ford Transit vans parked near to the building. As I was driving I couldn't see whether they were carrying stuff in or out of the building but so many people at that time in the morning was a bit strange. Anyone any idea what might have been going on?

[Dave-O]

Yesterday, Friday, at 0455 in the morning, I turned off the motorway to get some grub out of Asda Govan. To get back on the M8 you have to then go along Edmiston Drive to the south west corner of Greyskull, then take a right at the roundabout and cut over to the slip road back onto the motorway.

Anyway, at the west end of the Greyskull buildings there were about 25 to 30 guys in what looked like G4S high visibility yellow coats, going in and out doorways carrying stuff and there were at least five unmarked white Ford Transit vans parked near to the building. As I was driving I couldn't see whether they were carrying stuff in or out of the building but so many people at that time in the morning was a bit strange. Anyone any idea what might have been going on?

Fat Sally McMoist was having a meeting with Green yesterday, could just be delivering his pies.

[Alan62]

Yesterday, Friday, at 0455 in the morning, I turned off the motorway to get some grub out of Asda Govan. To get back on the M8 you have to then go along Edmiston Drive to the south west corner of Greyskull, then take a right at the roundabout and cut over to the slip road back onto the motorway.

Anyway, at the west end of the Greyskull buildings there were about 25 to 30 guys in what looked like G4S high visibility yellow coats, going in and out doorways carrying stuff and there were at least five unmarked white Ford Transit vans parked near to the building. As I was driving I couldn't see whether they were carrying stuff in or out of the building but so many people at that time in the morning was a bit strange. Anyone any idea what might have been going on?

Maybe Charlie Boy's doing a wee bit of midnight asset stripping while he's still in charge ...

[Just Alf]

Getting rid of the evidence!

[Kaiser1962]

I agree, but in strict legal terms they don't have to accept the burdens of the oldco - that's what the newco procedure is all about. We've already seen that this bunch of shysters aren't afraid to go to the civil courts after the event so the SPL needs to stitch up the responsibility tight right now. Remember, Rangers FC are already out of Europe for three, maybe four years now so they've got nothing to lose by playing silly buggers.


Of course you are correct Cav but it appears, to me at least, that Newhun are applying a mish mash of rules, regulations and laws as they see fit, or as it suits their criteria. While Newhun are applying the Law of the land to their debt situation, they are ignoring it and applying football regulations in other areas, such as their Newhun status with the SPL.

There are a number of anomalies between football's governing bodies rules and regulations and the Law and all clubs sign up to adhere to the rules, laws and decisions of their respective governing bodies. Its about time someone reminded the huns of this and FIFA should get a grip on it or it is danger of runnning away from them.

[Part/Time Supporter]

News re SPL fixtures. Team X to be included. Surely Team Ex would have been better?

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/106461-spl-considering-replacing-rangers-with-team-x-on-201213-fixture-list/

:greengrin

I think this is significant and will be connected to what that Rangers Tax Case commenter said, posted above.

If the SPL have had legal advice that Green's "The Rangers" is a completely new entity and is not a continuation of "Rangers", then the "Rangers" share in the SPL will have lapsed, leaving the SPL with 11 clubs (Dunfermline having already been relegated). Therefore they have to put "Team X" in the fixture list, because there are only 11 SPL clubs. This then means that the SPL will have to have vote(s) on who to allocate the 12th share to, which will require 11-1 majority as a qualified resolution. Presumably then it would be far more likely for Dundee to get a 11-1 vote passed (no real reason for anyone to object to them) than "The Rangers".

If the legal advice was that "The Rangers" is a continuity of Rangers, then they would have just left Rangers in the fixture list.

[Ozyhibby]

Were any of them carrying a bike?

[Part/Time Supporter]

The SPL are complete idiots.

If Rangers do not get into the SPL then Dundee get promoted.
Dundee and Dundee United in the same league will mean the season fixtures need to keep them opposite each other in terms of when Dundee are at home, United are away, the same rule happens to us and hertz and also Celtic and Rangers.
The SPL cannot simply put Team X in as it'll cause chaos if the wrong team turns out to be Team X.

Unless of course it's pre-determined.

Dundee and Dundee United have quite often played at home on the same weekend in recent years, because the SPL and SFL don't co-operate on fixture lists. They then take it turn about to play at 3pm on the Sunday.

[Kaiser1962]

And in order to play in the SPL a club must have a UEFA club licence.

From the SFA's own rules on club licensing;

"3.1.1 The Licence Applicant may only be a football club, that is the legal entity fully responsible for the football team participating in national and international competitions and which is the legal entity member of the Scottish Football Association (Full or Associate Member). The licence applicant is responsible for the fulfillment of the club licensing criteria. This membership must have been in place at the start of the licence season for a minimum period of three consecutive years.

AND

3.3.1 UEFA Licence Awards for Scottish Premier League Clubs (SPL)
A Licence cannot be transferred from one legal entity to another."

AND

as the SFA websit explains http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football_document_libraries.cfm?page=2570

"National Club Licensing applies to Scottish FA member clubs and UEFA Club Licensing applies to Scottish Premier League clubs."



Rangers set the precedent by going to court over an SFA decision they didnt agree with, in my book they cant complain if Dundee decide to do the same.



Not really because this rules state at article:
A2.7 The Board may in its absolute discretion waive, relax or grant a period of grace in respect of any Club's or Candidate Club’s requirement to comply with any part of the Membership Criteria and/or Rules A2.6 and H6.1.

so basically the SPL can do what it likes.

It also states that members must be members of the SFA although then further says membership confers SFA membership. :confused:

SFA membership cant be transferred and to be eligible for membership you need 3 years accounts which newco don't have. So the only way into the SFA is by the SPL.

The whole affair is rather confusing and i wonder how many rules will be bent or interpreted in the hope of performing necromancy.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think this is significant and will be connected to what that Rangers Tax Case commenter said, posted above.

If the SPL have had legal advice that Green's "The Rangers" is a completely new entity and is not a continuation of "Rangers", then the "Rangers" share in the SPL will have lapsed, leaving the SPL with 11 clubs (Dunfermline having already been relegated). Therefore they have to put "Team X" in the fixture list, because there are only 11 SPL clubs. This then means that the SPL will have to have vote(s) on who to allocate the 12th share to, which will require 11-1 majority as a qualified resolution. Presumably then it would be far more likely for Dundee to get a 11-1 vote passed (no real reason for anyone to object to them) than "The Rangers".

If the legal advice was that "The Rangers" is a continuity of Rangers, then they would have just left Rangers in the fixture list.

An interesting thing on the SPL website. http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s2&newsid=11396

Preseason fixtures already announced for each club including....

Rangers
Thursday July 12 - Le Havre (A)
Saturday July 14 - Southampton/Arsenal
(Markus Liebherr Memorial Cup - Southampton)
Friday July 20 - Eintracht Braunschweig (A)
Sunday July 22 - SV Rodinghausen (A)
Wednesday July 25 - Armenia Bielefeld (A)

This is the fixtures of a football club, that according to CG no longer has any players, as they all transferred to The Rangers.

[Part/Time Supporter]

An interesting thing on the SPL website. http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s2&newsid=11396

Preseason fixtures already announced for each club including....

Rangers
Thursday July 12 - Le Havre (A)
Saturday July 14 - Southampton/Arsenal
(Markus Liebherr Memorial Cup - Southampton)
Friday July 20 - Eintracht Braunschweig (A)
Sunday July 22 - SV Rodinghausen (A)
Wednesday July 25 - Armenia Bielefeld (A)

This is the fixtures of a football club, that according to CG no longer has any players, as they all transferred to The Rangers.

All of those fixtures were announced before the CVA failed.

[Leithenhibby]

Dundee and Dundee United have quite often played at home on the same weekend in recent years, because the SPL and SFL don't co-operate on fixture lists. They then take it turn about to play at 3pm on the Sunday.



It's just a pity that the "big-wigs" can't use their initiative in such a simple way!! :rolleyes:

[Andy74]

The new Chairman saying in press today that as they are a new club they should not be linked with any previous issues or punishments and that we should all just forget about it.

I hope all the SPL Chairmen are getting as pissed off at this behaviour as the rest of us.

[Mon Dieu4]

The new Chairman saying in press today that as they are a new club they should not be linked with any previous issues or punishments and that we should all just forget about it.

I hope all the SPL Chairmen are getting as pissed off at this behaviour as the rest of us.

Do they get the rights to the likes of the club badge etc, surely if its a new club they can't put their self appointed 5 stars etc on things as they haven't won anything?

[PatHead]

Yesterday, Friday, at 0455 in the morning, I turned off the motorway to get some grub out of Asda Govan. To get back on the M8 you have to then go along Edmiston Drive to the south west corner of Greyskull, then take a right at the roundabout and cut over to the slip road back onto the motorway.

Anyway, at the west end of the Greyskull buildings there were about 25 to 30 guys in what looked like G4S high visibility yellow coats, going in and out doorways carrying stuff and there were at least five unmarked white Ford Transit vans parked near to the building. As I was driving I couldn't see whether they were carrying stuff in or out of the building but so many people at that time in the morning was a bit strange. Anyone any idea what might have been going on?

G4S have one of their main Scottish offices in Ibrox and would be going about their own work. Doubt there is anything sinister in it. (Unfortunately)

[joe breezy]

Do they get the rights to the likes of the club badge etc, surely if its a new club they can't put their self appointed 5 stars etc on things as they haven't won anything?

They can't have it both ways - if new club they are a new club - just like FCUM or AFC Wimbledon

New badge - no history - start at the very bottom and that is the juniors not the SFL

[Andy74]

Do they get the rights to the likes of the club badge etc, surely if its a new club they can't put their self appointed 5 stars etc on things as they haven't won anything?

I think they will carry on exactly as before. They all seem to have the same club ties. The strip has already been launched and on sale.

They seem to be selling season tickets.

Interesting that as the transfer of assets is said to have taken place we've heard nothing of any players saying no thanks.

[hibbyfrankie]

I think they will carry on exactly as before. They all seem to have the same club ties. The strip has already been launched and on sale.

They seem to be selling season tickets.

Interesting that as the transfer of assets is said to have taken place we've heard nothing of any players saying no thanks.


I don't think they can sign players until they have SFA licence as Newco are not a football club yet.

[Don Giovanni]

And in order to play in the SPL a club must have a UEFA club licence.

From the SFA's own rules on club licensing;

"3.1.1 The Licence Applicant may only be a football club, that is the legal entity fully responsible for the football team participating in national and international competitions and which is the legal entity member of the Scottish Football Association (Full or Associate Member). The licence applicant is responsible for the fulfillment of the club licensing criteria. This membership must have been in place at the start of the licence season for a minimum period of three consecutive years.

AND

3.3.1 UEFA Licence Awards for Scottish Premier League Clubs (SPL)
A Licence cannot be transferred from one legal entity to another."

AND

as the SFA websit explains http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/football_document_libraries.cfm?page=2570

"National Club Licensing applies to Scottish FA member clubs and UEFA Club Licensing applies to Scottish Premier League clubs."



Rangers set the precedent by going to court over an SFA decision they didnt agree with, in my book they cant complain if Dundee decide to do the same.

So regardless of the financial implications or the arguement for sporting integrity the SPL cannot admit THE Rangers without breaking their own rules.

You're right Kaiser, Dundee should kick up a stink if this is allowed to go ahead. The SPL should not even require a vote on the share transfer. THE Rangers do not meet the SPL entry criteria - its as simple as that.

The more I read / learn about this whole farce the more convinced I am that the only correct action is to throw THE Rangers out and let them meet whatever fate awaits them (applying for SFL 3, surely).

But I wonder where is Doncaster in all this mess?
He's chief of the SPL, right?
The scenario he did not wish to discuss is now reality (RFC to be liquidated) so where is his leadership when his organisation is in disarray?
Surely the SPL administrators were making some contingency plans for such a scenario even if they did not wish to publicly discuss it?

But so far, not a peep. Doncaster, chief administrator, apply-er of rules, is not fit for purpose.

(i know this ain't twiter but this seems appropriate #DoncasterOut)

[ancienthibby]

So regardless of the financial implications or the arguement for sporting integrity the SPL cannot admit THE Rangers without breaking their own rules.

You're right Kaiser, Dundee should kick up a stink if this is allowed to go ahead. The SPL should not even require a vote on the share transfer. THE Rangers do not meet the SPL entry criteria - its as simple as that.

The more I read / learn about this whole farce the more convinced I am that the only correct action is to throw THE Rangers out and let them meet whatever fate awaits them (applying for SFL 3, surely).

But I wonder where is Doncaster in all this mess?
He's chief of the SPL, right?
The scenario he did not wish to discuss is now reality (RFC to be liquidated) so where is his leadership when his organisation is in disarray?
Surely the SPL administrators were making some contingency plans for such a scenario even if they did not wish to publicly discuss it?

But so far, not a peep. Doncaster, chief administrator, apply-er of rules, is not fit for purpose.

(i know this ain't twiter but this seems appropriate #DoncasterOut)

From today's BBC Gossip page:

A newco Rangers could be offered a route into the First Division next season as part of a radical overhaul of the Scottish game. (Daily Record)
The Walter Smith-led consortium will launch a takeover bid for the new Rangers in the next 48 hours. (Sun)
Mike McDonald, a business partner of new Rangers chief executive Charles Green, says the Walter Smith-led consortium is just one of three parties to express an interest in buying out the assets of the club. (Daily Mail)

[Eyrie]

The new Chairman saying in press today that as they are a new club they should not be linked with any previous issues or punishments and that we should all just forget about it.

I hope all the SPL Chairmen are getting as pissed off at this behaviour as the rest of us.

I'd agree with him, providing New Huns start life in Division Three. If they expect to pick up where Huns RIP left off in the SPL, then they have accept the punishment that their extinct predecessor would have incurred.


From today's BBC Gossip page:

A newco Rangers could be offered a route into the First Division next season as part of a radical overhaul of the Scottish game. (Daily Record)
The Walter Smith-led consortium will launch a takeover bid for the new Rangers in the next 48 hours. (Sun)
Mike McDonald, a business partner of new Rangers chief executive Charles Green, says the Walter Smith-led consortium is just one of three parties to express an interest in buying out the assets of the club. (Daily Mail)
That would only be acceptable if they could not be promoted for two seasons. This would achieve the same result as making them start over in Division Three, but without the problems caused by a few thousand New Huns fans turning up at Third Division grounds which couldn't cope.

[Onion]

From today's BBC Gossip page:

A newco Rangers could be offered a route into the First Division next season as part of a radical overhaul of the Scottish game. (Daily Record)
The Walter Smith-led consortium will launch a takeover bid for the new Rangers in the next 48 hours. (Sun)
Mike McDonald, a business partner of new Rangers chief executive Charles Green, says the Walter Smith-led consortium is just one of three parties to express an interest in buying out the assets of the club. (Daily Mail)

Probably been said before , but if others are now prepared to pay Green substantially more than £5.5m for the assets why the hell did D&P sell it to him for so little ? I thought their principle aim and legal obligation was to get as much as possible value for the CREDITORS? Yet, Greene will pocket a tidy profit for doing nothing. This cannot possibly be legal and, if it is, then D&P has not done their job and should be sued by the creditors for the diff between the the paltry £5.5m and the true market value (i.e. whatever others are prepared to pay now).

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

I'd agree with him, providing New Huns start life in Division Three. If they expect to pick up where Huns RIP left off in the SPL, then they have accept the punishment that their extinct predecessor would have incurred.


That would only be acceptable if they could not be promoted for two seasons. This would achieve the same result as making them start over in Division Three, but without the problems caused by a few thousand New Huns fans turning up at Third Division grounds which couldn't cope.

If they can only take 500 fans to an away match, so be it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Why is all the talk of EITHER the SPL or SFL 3??

Surely, as a new football club, formed on Thursday 14 June 2012, they need to apply to join the West of Scotland League first, so they can get their licence. As it stands the Central District Second Div. has 11 clubs, so by admitting The Rangers would even up the Leage structure.


I'd agree with him, providing New Huns start life in Division Three. If they expect to pick up where Huns RIP left off in the SPL, then they have accept the punishment that their extinct predecessor would have incurred.


That would only be acceptable if there was a minimum of one and preferably two seasons where they could not be promoted. It would achieve the same result as making them start over in Division Three, but without the problems caused by a few thousand New Huns fans turning up at Third Division grounds which couldn't cope.

[Caversham Green]

Of course you are correct Cav but it appears, to me at least, that Newhun are applying a mish mash of rules, regulations and laws as they see fit, or as it suits their criteria. While Newhun are applying the Law of the land to their debt situation, they are ignoring it and applying football regulations in other areas, such as their Newhun status with the SPL.

There are a number of anomalies between football's governing bodies rules and regulations and the Law and all clubs sign up to adhere to the rules, laws and decisions of their respective governing bodies. Its about time someone reminded the huns of this and FIFA should get a grip on it or it is danger of runnning away from them.

That's kinda my point - although I was offering an alternative interpretation rather than arguing the case. Newhun are in a position that they can refuse to accept punishment for the transgressions of Oldhun - they've already shown that they're not above going to the civil courts for a ruling on football matters - so the SPL would be wasting time and money investigating the hidden contracts issue if there's no-one there to take the punishment. They, and the SFA, need to have an acceptance by Newhun of Oldhun's liabilities (moral rather than financial) wrapped up tight before they can continue with the investigation.

I see from Andy74's post that Newhun seem unwilling to accept responsibility, so that should make the SPL's decision for them. No hidden contracts investigation unless they want to charge individuals, the Rangers FC that played in the SPL last season is no longer a football club so there's a vacancy in the SPL for another club. The new Rangers FC do not meet the criteria required for the SPL because they're a brand new company that has yet to play any football, so they should not be considered and other applicants should be considered on their merits.

I bet they don't make it that simple though.

[Bishop Hibee]

From today's Scotsman:

"(Malcolm) Murray is hopeful, however, and believes that because it is a newco, it should not be punished for old misdemeanours.

“At the moment the biggest issue is what league we’ll play in. I’d much rather we were playing in the SPL.

“I think Rangers have had giant punishments already – a European ban, a ten-point deduction, the emotional trauma everyone has suffered.

“I think for the good of Scottish football it’s much better that Rangers are in the SPL. For everyone’s sake we should forget the sins of a few people in the past and move on.”

Oldco or newco, these lowlifes know no shame. July 2nd could be the date for the SPL newco vote. Bombard Petrie and the board telling him that only a NO vote will mean you return to Easter Road.

[HFC 0-7]

That's kinda my point - although I was offering an alternative interpretation rather than arguing the case. Newhun are in a position that they can refuse to accept punishment for the transgressions of Oldhun - they've already shown that they're not above going to the civil courts for a ruling on football matters - so the SPL would be wasting time and money investigating the hidden contracts issue if there's no-one there to take the punishment. They, and the SFA, need to have an acceptance by Newhun of Oldhun's liabilities (moral rather than financial) wrapped up tight before they can continue with the investigation.

I see from Andy74's post that Newhun seem unwilling to accept responsibility, so that should make the SPL's decision for them. No hidden contracts investigation unless they want to charge individuals, the Rangers FC that played in the SPL last season is no longer a football club so there's a vacancy in the SPL for another club. The new Rangers FC do not meet the criteria required for the SPL because they're a brand new company that has yet to play any football, so they should not be considered and other applicants should be considered on their merits.

I bet they don't make it that simple though.

I agree, the spl won't want to waste money on an investigation if they can't do anything with the findings. HMRC look like they want to go after people individually so they will probably pick up the investigation.

[BarneyK]

Probably been said before , but if others are now prepared to pay Green substantially more than £5.5m for the assets why the hell did D&P sell it to him for so little ? I thought their principle aim and legal obligation was to get as much as possible value for the CREDITORS? Yet, Greene will pocket a tidy profit for doing nothing. This cannot possibly be legal and, if it is, then D&P has not done their job and should be sued by the creditors for the diff between the the paltry £5.5m and the true market value (i.e. whatever others are prepared to pay now).

Waldo and Co. made no offer for the Club, so D+P cannot be blamed here imho. It's just the old/new Rangers way, happy to plough money into the club, unhappy to use that money to pay for tax debts.

[Lungo--Drom]

Cheers PH, that solves that question. Another Rangers sell off from the last few years I guess. Wonder how much rent they get although I suppose it just goes towards the stewarding bill. It would be amusing if G4S were moving to new premises...


G4S have one of their main Scottish offices in Ibrox and would be going about their own work. Doubt there is anything sinister in it. (Unfortunately)

[Moulin Yarns]

From today's Scotsman:

"(Malcolm) Murray is hopeful, however, and believes that because it is a newco, it should not be punished for old misdemeanours.

“At the moment the biggest issue is what league we’ll play in. I’d much rather we were playing in the SPL.

“I think Rangers have had giant punishments already – a European ban, a ten-point deduction, the emotional trauma everyone has suffered.

“I think for the good of Scottish football it’s much better that Rangers are in the SPL. For everyone’s sake we should forget the sins of a few people in the past and move on.”

Oldco or newco, these lowlifes know no shame. July 2nd could be the date for the SPL newco vote. Bombard Petrie and the board telling him that only a NO vote will mean you return to Easter Road.

Bombard the SFA telling them that THE Rangers, as a new, 2 day old, club, need to be admitted, as all clubs, at the very bottom, in the West of Scotland League Central District Second Div. alongside Royal Albert, Blantyre Vics, Newmains Utd, Rossvale, Wishaw Juniors, Johnstone Burgh, Forth Wanderers, Maryhill, Lesmahagow Juniors and St Roch's.

IMHO of course.

[hibbyfrankie]

From today's Scotsman:

"(Malcolm) Murray is hopeful, however, and believes that because it is a newco, it should not be punished for old misdemeanours.

“At the moment the biggest issue is what league we’ll play in. I’d much rather we were playing in the SPL.

“I think Rangers have had giant punishments already – a European ban, a ten-point deduction, the emotional trauma everyone has suffered.

“I think for the good of Scottish football it’s much better that Rangers are in the SPL. For everyone’s sake we should forget the sins of a few people in the past and move on.”

Oldco or newco, these lowlifes know no shame. July 2nd could be the date for the SPL newco vote. Bombard Petrie and the board telling him that only a NO vote will mean you return to Easter Road.

Ok MR Murray thats your legal right but now you cant transfer any SPL share.

You cant play in the SPL you don't qualify.

What punishment you don't meet EUFA License criteria it's not a ban. You haven't won any points to be deducted. Your a week old there is no turmoil.

We have moved on as per my previous answers but again you don't qualify for SPL.

IMHO of course :greengrin

[Dave-O]

Probably been said before , but if others are now prepared to pay Green substantially more than £5.5m for the assets why the hell did D&P sell it to him for so little ? I thought their principle aim and legal obligation was to get as much as possible value for the CREDITORS? Yet, Greene will pocket a tidy profit for doing nothing. This cannot possibly be legal and, if it is, then D&P has not done their job and should be sued by the creditors for the diff between the the paltry £5.5m and the true market value (i.e. whatever others are prepared to pay now).

I could be wrong but this has puzzled me too, could it be as simple as nobody realising that all the properties where included in the 5.5mil , I'm sure cav said they weren't on the original paperwork.

[Jack]

I really can't see what all the chat is about - they're deed!

The court of session referred back the the appeal lot basically saying if its not in black and white you can't do it. The Scottish Cup punishment has been done to death - its not an option. That leaves suspension for a year or kicked into touch. Mair deed.

Its only the zombiehuns that exist as a 'football' entity. SPL rules and I think SFA rules too, state a Euro licence must be in place or able to be in place for a local licence to be granted. The zombiehuns don't have any accounts, never mind the 3 years that are required - loadsa deed.

Would someone in authority just stand up and ****ing tell them. THEY CANNOT BE IN THE SPL NEXT SEASON.

And if we're lucky, no not lucky. If they get what they deserve never mind about keeping their history, they will be history, they will be banned sine die.

[Lungo--Drom]

They should make 'The Rangers Football Club' sit down in the Countdown TV studio and ask them, "What do you want, old silverware and stars on shirts and old accountability and consequent punishment OR no accountability or punishment related to the old club and you lose the silverware and the stars on the shirts?" Then they should start the big Countdown clock ticking. They could have Green, McCoist and Jabba Bighoose as the panel to decide an answer. It would make for priceless TV.

[Jim44]

The longer this drags on the more I think somehow there going to escape this and it stinks

Of course they're going to escape it. This new born 'love in ' for come-back kid Smith has strengthened their resolve and their attitude now is ' we're putting all the cr@p and bad guys behind us; our and your old pal Watty has ridden into town with the cavalry so let bygones be bygones and welcome us back with open arms.' My fear is that all the weak, greedy and wavering CEO's will fall off the fence on the Rangers's side.

[BarneyK]

Of course they're going to escape it. This new born 'love in ' for come-back kid Smith has strengthened their resolve and their attitude now is ' we're putting all the cr@p and bad guys behind us; our and your old pal Watty has ridden into town with the cavalry so let bygones be bygones and welcome us back with open arms.' My fear is that all the weak, greedy and wavering CEO's will fall off the fence on the Rangers's side.

Some of the Tabloid coverage of the Waldo issue has been nothing short of a disgrace. Most of it reads like a Party Political Broadcast on behalf of the Good Ol' Waldo Party. It almost leaves you feeling sorry for Green. Not quite, but almost...

[CropleyWasGod]

I could be wrong but this has puzzled me too, could it be as simple as nobody realising that all the properties where included in the 5.5mil , I'm sure cav said they weren't on the original paperwork.

I am still unconvinced that they were included, and Cav is on the fence.

Wouldn't it be funny, though, if Waldo et al bought what Green has... only to find out the properties are still in RFC? :greengrin

[Leithenhibby]

Of course they're going to escape it. This new born 'love in ' for come-back kid Smith has strengthened their resolve and their attitude now is ' we're putting all the cr@p and bad guys behind us; our and your old pal Watty has ridden into town with the cavalry so let bygones be bygones and welcome us back with open arms.' My fear is that all the weak, greedy and wavering CEO's will fall off the fence on the Rangers's side.

I'm no buying that... :wink:

With FB, Twitter, Hibs.Net :aok: and the likes they can't get out this one. If Ernie Walker was still at the SFA then that would be a whole different story. It would have been brushed under the carpet in a "blink of an eye" :greengrin

[grunt]

Cheers PH, that solves that question. Another Rangers sell off from the last few years I guess. Wonder how much rent they get although I suppose it just goes towards the stewarding bill. It would be amusing if G4S were moving to new premises...G4S have lost £295k in the Rangers liquidation - I doubt they'll be on the best of terms.

[Kaiser1962]

That's kinda my point - although I was offering an alternative interpretation rather than arguing the case. Newhun are in a position that they can refuse to accept punishment for the transgressions of Oldhun - they've already shown that they're not above going to the civil courts for a ruling on football matters - so the SPL would be wasting time and money investigating the hidden contracts issue if there's no-one there to take the punishment. They, and the SFA, need to have an acceptance by Newhun of Oldhun's liabilities (moral rather than financial) wrapped up tight before they can continue with the investigation.

I see from Andy74's post that Newhun seem unwilling to accept responsibility, so that should make the SPL's decision for them. No hidden contracts investigation unless they want to charge individuals, the Rangers FC that played in the SPL last season is no longer a football club so there's a vacancy in the SPL for another club. The new Rangers FC do not meet the criteria required for the SPL because they're a brand new company that has yet to play any football, so they should not be considered and other applicants should be considered on their merits.

I bet they don't make it that simple though.


:agree:
The SFA's own rules would suggest that they cant accept Newhun in Oldhun's place particularly, as Andy pointed out, Green is having no truck with what went on before his stewardship, which he is entitled to do. However he cant then pick up where Oldhun left off, in football terms, while at the same time abdicating responsibilty, in legal terms, for what preceded him.

If he wishes to continue in the higher leagues in Scotland then he has to accept that the governing body can investigate, and punish, for past misdeeds. If he does not want to do that then he should apply to the SFA to join the league structure, starting , as already pointed out, with the West of Scotland Central District Div 2. Then other senior clubs can apply for the vacant position in th SFL, as happened when Gretna ceased to be. They are now Gretna (2008) and playing in the East of Scotland premier division. All honours start from 2008, all previous honours are wiped and remain with Gretna FC which dissolved in 2008.

Rangers can have their ground, their strip and (part of) their name but they start again at the very bottom and work their way up whilst waiting for a vacancy in the SFL. They have lost their history, their titles and their cups. They gambled and lost. IMO there is no decision to make in a football sense (they do meet any of the required criteria to remain in either the SPL or the SFL) and the only thing left is for Hector to pursue, and jail, the embezzlers who have cheated the taxpayer (and others) out of millions.

[John_the_angus_hibby]

It's beginning to sound to me that the corpse is at last dead and all we are seeing is it twitching, vultures arguing over which bit and people positioning to avoid being the one that is implicated in its death.

[Dave-O]

I still unconvinced that they were included, and Cav is on the fence.

Wouldn't it be funny, though, if Waldo et al bought what Green has... only to find out the properties are still in RFC? :greengrin

:greengrin.....I think uncle wattie and his cohorts where as stunned as we where when he seen what green got for his dough, I hope green turns it over quickly to wattie and gets out with a big wedge before BDO cotton on and say "HOLD ON A WEE MINUTE, THERE'S BEEN A CLERICAL ERROR AND THE PROPERTIES AREN'T INCLUDED IN THE SALE"....:na na:

[John_the_angus_hibby]

...and a couple of twats in blue blazers trying desperate final but too late mouth to mouth and some bloke pointing saying "its just sleeping, look it moved" as he kicks it.

Now we can just focus on signings nd pre season!

[Bighoose]

Ok MR Murray thats your legal right but now you cant transfer any SPL share.

You cant play in the SPL you don't qualify.

What punishment you don't meet EUFA License criteria it's not a ban. You haven't won any points to be deducted. Your a week old there is no turmoil.

We have moved on as per my previous answers but again you don't qualify for SPL.

IMHO of course :greengrin

Would be nice if at least one the journalists listening to this crap could put them straight on their "Euro ban".

[Caversham Green]

I could be wrong but this has puzzled me too, could it be as simple as nobody realising that all the properties where included in the 5.5mil , I'm sure cav said they weren't on the original paperwork.


I still unconvinced that they were included, and Cav is on the fence.

Wouldn't it be funny, though, if Waldo et al bought what Green has... only to find out the properties are still in RFC? :greengrin

I've had a reply from Paul McConville now - he reckons the properties are included in the £5.5m despite what the EOS says, mainly because it wouldn't make a lot of sense from Green's point of view to leave them with the Oldco. That's one of the reasons I had my doubts as well, but I'm still happy up here on the fence.

[Sylar]

Have any journalists bothered picking up on the fact that they're not eligible for a license and that any readmission would contravene the SFA rules?

Also, can anyone explain to me why this particular vote for their re-entry is not working on the 11-1 principal?

[theonlywayisup]

Is there a prize for whoever posts the 12,000th post on this thread?

[StevieC]

From today's BBC Gossip page:

A newco Rangers could be offered a route into the First Division next season as part of a radical overhaul of the Scottish game. (Daily Record)
The Walter Smith-led consortium will launch a takeover bid for the new Rangers in the next 48 hours. (Sun)
Mike McDonald, a business partner of new Rangers chief executive Charles Green, says the Walter Smith-led consortium is just one of three parties to express an interest in buying out the assets of the club. (Daily Mail)

The Daily Record will say whatever they think is the best for RFC. They're probably coming round to the fact that there is little or no chance of them getting into the SPL so will now try to implant the next best scenario into the heads of its readers.

The best way that WS can gain the upper hand is to question the D&P sale to Green through the courts.

If there are now 4 consortiums interested then the creditors should step in, overturn the original sale and auction the club off.

[poolman]

From today's Scotsman:

"(Malcolm) Murray is hopeful, however, and believes that because it is a newco, it should not be punished for old misdemeanours.

“At the moment the biggest issue is what league we’ll play in. I’d much rather we were playing in the SPL.

“I think Rangers have had giant punishments already – a European ban, a ten-point deduction, the emotional trauma everyone has suffered.

“I think for the good of Scottish football it’s much better that Rangers are in the SPL. For everyone’s sake we should forget the sins of a few people in the past and move on.”

Oldco or newco, these lowlifes know no shame. July 2nd could be the date for the SPL newco vote. Bombard Petrie and the board telling him that only a NO vote will mean you return to Easter Road.


Bloody hell

The Arrogance is mind-boggling

I'ts like getting caught commiting an armed robbery at a bank then saying "sorry, I promise if you let me off I'll not do it again"

Hate them :furious:

[Kaiser1962]

I've had a reply from Paul McConville now - he reckons the properties are included in the £5.5m despite what the EOS says, mainly because it wouldn't make a lot of sense from Green's point of view to leave them with the Oldco. That's one of the reasons I had my doubts as well, but I'm still happy up here on the fence.


If that's the case then the EOS was innacurate, does that affect its valdity? If there has been a "clerical error" that cant be reversed then can D+P be held liable? Is a coincidence that you and Charles Green have the same initials?

Three quick ones there Cav.

Whatever happens I do not imagine that Duff and Phelps have done anything other than damage their reputation and I cant imagine the two amigo's will have endeared themselves to their paymasters.

[grunt]

I'ts like getting caught commiting an armed robbery at a bank then saying "sorry, I promise if you let me off I'll not do it again" ... and complaining about the "emotional trauma" of being caught!!

[CentreLine]

On the TV post-mortem the other night the tax expert on ITV said that the name of the newco could not be Rangers anything it had to be a completely new company and that the name “The Rangers Football Club” was simply a trading name not the name of the company. A flag of convenience if you like. That being the case, do we know what the real name of the new company actually is? I am certain we might want to include it in a song after all :stirrer:

[CropleyWasGod]

I've had a reply from Paul McConville now - he reckons the properties are included in the £5.5m despite what the EOS says, mainly because it wouldn't make a lot of sense from Green's point of view to leave them with the Oldco. That's one of the reasons I had my doubts as well, but I'm still happy up here on the fence.

... which is where my previous conspiracy theory starts.

CG might have plans to buy the property separately from OldHun, and lease it to whoever he sells NewHun to. He then has a valuable asset, an assured rent, and a tidy profit from the sale of NewHun.

[Caversham Green]

If that's the case then the EOS was innacurate, does that affect its valdity? If there has been a "clerical error" that cant be reversed then can D+P be held liable? Is a coincidence that you and Charles Green have the same initials?

Three quick ones there Cav.

Whatever happens I do not imagine that Duff and Phelps have done anything other than damage their reputation and I cant imagine the two amigo's will have endeared themselves to their paymasters.

The whole CVA proposal was decidedly sloppy IMHO, but I think now that things have moved on it would be very difficult for anyone to make a claim unless they could prove that they made a decision based on erroneous information. The time to raise the issue would really have been before the CVA vote was taken.

On the initials thing, I keep seeing 'CG' being called all sorts of things and wondering what have I done now? I may have to change my user name - probably to include the word Quantum.

[lapsedhibee]

On the initials thing, I keep seeing 'CG' being called all sorts of things and wondering what have I done now? I may have to change my user name - probably to include the word Quantum.

Garage near me calls itself Quantum Mechanics.

[Caversham Green]

... which is where my previous conspiracy theory starts.

CG might have plans to buy the property separately from OldHun, and lease it to whoever he sells NewHun to. He then has a valuable asset, an assured rent, and a tidy profit from the sale of NewHun.

:rolleyes: I promise you I don't.

Seriously, that's why I can't/won't make my mind up. On the one hand there's so much underhand stuff going on (I'm more than ever convinced that D&P are treating Charles Green as their client rather than Rangers FC (IA)) that that possibility can't be dismissed. On the other hand the omission of the properties from the CVA proposal in those circumstances would be deliberately misleading and would be more likely to leave D&P open to a claim.

[Caversham Green]

Garage near me calls itself Quantum Mechanics.

I can't fix cars though.

:hmmm: Caversham Quantum or Quantum Green?

[EuanH78]

Alex Thomson still on case

Not surprised the SFA wont let Campbell Ogilvie near a real journalist but is a shame.

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/walter-smith-questions-rangers-legend/1947

"What goes around…comes around…

It is a familiar routine now at Rangers (http://www.channel4.com/news/rangers) where men come in making big promises and they are ritually hailed as ‘heroes’ and ‘saviours’ and all the rest of it and few realistic questions are asked, few real facts offered.
And if one of the men has ‘legendary’ status in the club not only are the requisite questions not asked but it causes grave offence if anybody does begin to suggest a question or two. Tragically for Rangers we have seen it all before with Sir David Murray and the Big Fat Promises and living the dream and outspending everyone and everything at Parkhead.
Then along came Craig Whyte with poor old Sir Dave suddenly ‘duped’ by Craig’s vision and ‘off the radar wealth’ and all the rest of the now-traditional Alice-In-Wonderland guff. Except most of it rather less well-written than Lewis Carroll.
But you cannot question a legend. John Greig is a legend. Or so they tell me. So when Channel 4 News revealed he was on an EBT (Employee Benefit Trust) pointing out this simple facts caused squeals of pain and derision from some Ibrox fans unable to deal in facts. Because he is a ‘legend’ he is, somehow, beyond question.
All of which is not simply stupid. It’s dangerous. Dangerous for Rangers.
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/files/2012/06/12_rangersbanner2_602.jpg (http://www.channel4.com/news/rangers)
So today, I shall be asking some questions of the latest legend/saviour/hero/Christ/delete as applicable. A man called Walter Smith who, they tell me is a legend. When legends wander in and out of Ibrox everyone should be asking questions.
So why did Walter Smith leave it so very late in the day to come over the hill like the cavalry with the backing of money-men like Jim McColl? We do not yet know. Not only that, Mr Smith’s group is already making the large promises, exactly the kind of pathology which has condemned Rangers to catastrophe in the past:
“I have been assisted by Jim McColl, Douglas Park and other prominent Scottish businessmen with a shared objective – that Rangers Football Club should be in the hands of Rangers people who will stabilise the club and protect it from future situations like we find ourselves in today”
So who or what are these ‘Rangers people’ and how are they going to be different from the Rangers people in the past which was so destructive for the club?
Well, weirdly, Walter Smith is of course one of those Rangers people of the past – hence the legend bit of course.

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/files/2012/06/15_smith_g_602.jpg (http://www.channel4.com/news/rangers)
If he really is different then he should be coming clean right now and explaining with openness, candour and honesty exactly what HIS Knowledge of or involvement in Employee Benefit Schemes Was during and after his time at Rangers.
Why?
Because candour and transparency are precisely what is still lacking from all the ‘Rangers people’.
Campbell Ogilvie, still stunningly not on gardening leave although ‘hugely conflicted’ according to his own boss at the Scottish Football Association, is eventually brought before selected, house-trained journalists in Glasgow to explain his EBT benefits.
Eventually. Will the SFA allow him to be interviewed by Channel 4 News? Unlikely.
This is the mindset, the refusal to explain or declare until it’s deemed absolutely unavoidable which continues to characterise the way things are in and around Ibrox.
The men who walk away do so and do not explain from David Murray onwards through director after director. And here’s what’s really crazy – nobody says there’s even anything wrong (yet) in getting EBT money.
Walter Smith now needs to show the courage, integrity and simple cojones so lacking in all those who’ve left Rangers. He must simply explain what his financial involvement has been, thereby proving he really is the ‘new Rangers person’ this club needs – and not simply another old retread who cannot handle the difficult issues, any more than all the previous Rangers people who walked away.
Because the club’s liquidated.
That means the HMRC boys can take the gloves off (http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rangers-taxman-walk/1899)and they will absolutely go over all the money and how it worked.
And that means you Mr Smith, No hiding behind all the ‘I’m just a football man’ claptrap with which so many Rangers fans have been insulted. He asked for and got the big money from Sir David Murray. He bought – and true he sold too. The Revenue are going to come looking. They will not just stop at Murray, Whyte et al. They will follow the money. They’ve waited a long time for this. They are not going to let any one spoil their party now.
Around 2007-8 under Walter Smith and with David Murray’s largesse, Rangers Football Club was buying big and financing massive players’ wage bill through the EBT schemes. Thanks to BBC Panorama we now know players like Mendez and Davis were being paid in this way. Perhaps Walter Smith will just plead the tired old ‘ football man’ mantra but that is not likely to convince HMRC as it should not convince any journalist in or out of Glasgow right now.
That is just one instance where Mr Smith will come under scrutiny and one could pick many more. That is the significance of liquidation as I pointed out earlier this week. It will not go away. In truth it has not even begun. All Mr Smith has to do to create real credibility now, is to answer openly all questions people wish to put about his financial arrangements with Rangers.
Instead, what are we getting at the moment? Silence on this and yet again a whole cacophony of noise about …legends…heroes…promises. As the noted Scotsman Macbeth had it:
“It is a tale told by an idiot
“Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
Have Rangers fans not had their fill of idiocy? Do they not deserve a few facts?"

Spot on, as usual IMO

[EuanH78]

I can't fix cars though.

:hmmm: Caversham Quantum or Quantum Green?

Caversham Greens Quantum Cars. :agree:

[grunt]

:hmmm: Caversham Quantum or Quantum Green?Stay as you are. I cannae take any more of this OldCo NewCo stuff.

[The Green Goblin]

From today's BBC Gossip page:

A newco Rangers could be offered a route into the First Division next season as part of a radical overhaul of the Scottish game. (Daily Record)
The Walter Smith-led consortium will launch a takeover bid for the new Rangers in the next 48 hours. (Sun)
Mike McDonald, a business partner of new Rangers chief executive Charles Green, says the Walter Smith-led consortium is just one of three parties to express an interest in buying out the assets of the club. (Daily Mail)


That DR comment "radical overhaul of the Scottish game" basically means they are trying to dress Rangers' wriggling out of a more severe punishment up as something positive which fans of other clubs want. Amazing isn't it? Maybe once the huns are deid, that rag will follow.

[CropleyWasGod]

Stay as you are. I cannae take any more of this OldCo NewCo stuff.

You can talk.... Green Runs Up No Taxes. :greengrin

[down-the-slope]

G4S have lost £295k in the Rangers liquidation - I doubt they'll be on the best of terms.

Maybe they were doing the old trick of flogging some assets to get their 295k back:faf:

[EuanH78]

Can we now change the thread title to Rangers in Liquidation?.... Admin Pr!cks :greengrin

[down-the-slope]

The Daily Record will say whatever they think is the best for RFC. They're probably coming round to the fact that there is little or no chance of them getting into the SPL so will now try to implant the next best scenario into the heads of its readers.

The best way that WS can gain the upper hand is to question the D&P sale to Green through the courts.

If there are now 4 consortiums interested then the creditors should step in, overturn the original sale and auction the club off.

Ahem do you mean RFC - in administration and soon to be liquidated - but with a bunch of players it has no money to pay until liquidation cancels contracts. But still holding an SPL share until liquidated..but no ground or training facilities

Or do you mean TRFC trading name of newley formed company that has a ground and training facility but no players and no licence to play in any league in any case

We need to be clear what we are talking about...

[H18sry]

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/walter-smith-questions-rangers-legend/1947 :wink:

[jgl07]

Is a coincidence that you and Charles Green have the same initials?


What if his full name is Charles William Green?

[CropleyWasGod]

Can we now change the thread title to Rangers in Liquidation?.... Admin Pr!cks :greengrin

No.. cos they aren't. :na na:

[Cropley10]

From today's Scotsman:

“I think Rangers have had giant punishments already –a European ban, a ten-point deduction, the emotional trauma everyone has suffered.

“I think for the good of Scottish football it’s much better that Rangers are in the SPL. For everyone’s sake we should forget the sins of a few people in the past and move on.”

As others have said, but still worth repeating, breathtaking in its arrogance.

The Euro ban isn't a punishment. It's simply what happens to every club that goes into administration. The ten point deduction still meant they finished 2nd FFS! And he adds in 'emotional trauma'.

What about the creditors Malcolm? What about the tax you avoided, tens of millions.

Never a whiff of an apology from anyone.

Oh and another thing Murray was a Man Utd shareholder.

[down-the-slope]

Can we now change the thread title to Rangers in Liquidation?.... Admin Pr!cks :greengrin

RFC (IA) are not in liquidation (yet)

[EuanH78]

No.. cos they aren't. :na na:


RFC (IA) are not in liquidation (yet)

Pr!cks :greengrin

And what better post to start page 400.

[CropleyWasGod]

Pr!cks :greengrin

And what better post to start page 400.

V V V V V

Will the admin pricks become liquid pricks eventually? :confused:

[Jim44]

Bloody hell

The Arrogance is mind-boggling

I'ts like getting caught commiting an armed robbery at a bank then saying "sorry, I promise if you let me off I'll not do it again"

Hate them :furious:H

Correct. But the mindset of the majority of clubs is that we have to let them off in order to slowly get some money out of them.

[jonty]

If the new club want, in any way,shape or form, to use the old club name, traditions, stadium or in any other way associate themselves with the old club, then they should also take the old club punishment.

So unless they have the balls to admit previous mistakes and accept it, then sporting integrity has lost. Swindling the tax payer, re-inventing the club and claiming to be 'rangers' is cheating - pure and simple.
Bringing the game into disrepute, and futher embaressing scottish football, and scotland.

And thats before we get to the dodgy contracts.

The could lease ibrox, play in grey strips (with prison-style arrows on them) and start at the bottom of the spl.
If they want to be called rangers, then they can start the next 5 seasons on -40 points and have a 5 year absence from any european or cup competitions. And throw away their songbook.

are they really, really dead yet?

[Moulin Yarns]

Did Radio Scotland just say there were moves to merge the SPL and SFL BEFORE next season??? :confused:

Sent a tweet to Sportsound, asking why 'gers are not going the way of Gretna to the Junior Leagues (Wst of Scotland League)

[Judas Iscariot]

"RFC not on SPL fixture list 2012/13"

Where is this fixture list? I can't see any link to the above?

[Lungo--Drom]

Personally I think that any club who wants to vote 'NO' should resign from the SPL on the condition that the SFL would allow a swelling of the ranks of the existing three SFL divisions and let the 'NO' clubs back into the SFL. Then the non-sporting integrity cubs who vote 'YES' to allowing to a NewHunCo FC into the SPL can rot in the maggot barrel with their manky blue friends. The SPL would quickly become unsustainable, go bust and so would the teams that voted 'YES'. Job done.

[Moulin Yarns]

"RFC not on SPL fixture list 2012/13"

Where is this fixture list? I can't see any link to the above?

Out on Monday

[Judas Iscariot]

Out on Monday

Thought it was the 18th right enough, so how do we know they aren't on the unreleased fixture list then?

[hibbyfrankie]

Correct link this time :wink:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18471197 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18471197)

[Moulin Yarns]

Thought it was the 18th right enough, so how do we know they aren't on the unreleased fixture list then?

http://sport.stv.tv/football/106461-spl-considering-replacing-rangers-with-team-x-on-201213-fixture-list/

[seanshow]

Breaking news

SFA looking to completely revamp Scottish football including taking charge and combining SFA,SPL,SFL........before the start of the season! lmao.

Source Jim Spence @ Radio Scotland

[Offside Trap]

Breaking news

SFA looking to completely revamp Scottish football including taking charge and combining SFA,SPL,SFL........before the start of the season! lmao.

Source Jim Spence @ Radio Scotland

Link here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18471197

Looks like Regan is taking charge and is clearly fed up with SPL faffing. :agree:

[Spike Mandela]

From today's Scotsman:

"(Malcolm) Murray is hopeful, however, and believes that because it is a newco, it should not be punished for old misdemeanours.

“At the moment the biggest issue is what league we’ll play in. I’d much rather we were playing in the SPL.

“I think Rangers have had giant punishments already – a European ban, a ten-point deduction, the emotional trauma everyone has suffered.

“I think for the good of Scottish football it’s much better that Rangers are in the SPL. For everyone’s sake we should forget the sins of a few people in the past and move on.”

Oldco or newco, these lowlifes know no shame. July 2nd could be the date for the SPL newco vote. Bombard Petrie and the board telling him that only a NO vote will mean you return to Easter Road.


Ha ha yes the emotional trauma of wiping upwards of £100m off their debt. What hell these nasty creditors have put them through.

Rangers fans and their various players have suffered NO trauma whatsoever and if the various authorities go light on any future sanctions they have in fact had their greatest day in history.

[Saorsa]

Link here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18471197

Looks like Regan is taking charge and is clearly fed up with SPL faffing. :agree:And whatever set up they come up with the huns must still start in the bottom league.

[Barney McGrew]

Great (balanced) discussion on Radio Scotland just now - if you're not listening to it, it's worth tuning in.

[Cropley10]

Ha ha yes the emotional trauma of wiping upwards of £100m off their debt. What hell these nasty creditors have put them through.

Rangers fans and their various players have suffered NO trauma whatsoever and if the various authorities go light on any future sanctions they have in fact had their greatest day in history.

The only trauma theyve suffered is not being 'top dog'

[cad]

One body to run Scottish football, that`ll never work :whistle:

[HibbyAndy]

And whatever set up they come up with the huns must still start in the bottom league.



Ive a feeling all this is a hidden agenda to accommodate the Huns remaining in the top flight, A mean why now?.

It reeks of hun loving *******s from top to bottom!.

[Saorsa]

Ive a feeling all this is a hidden agenda to accommodate the Huns remaining in the top flight, A mean why now?.

It reeks of hun loving *******s from top to bottom!.well whatever set up they come up with, if the stickies dinnae start at the bottom then it's :bye: :bye: Scottish fitba from me :agree:

[lapsedhibee]

And whatever set up they come up with the huns must still start in the bottom league.

:agree: And that's neither the SPL nor the SFL.

[HibbyAndy]

well whatever set up they come up with, if the stickies dinnae start at the bottom then it's :bye: :bye: Scottish fitba from me :agree:



"let's just have 2 leagues, demote Der Hun and they can get back into the top flight within a year."..... what a load of bollox.

[seanshow]

If you read between the lines of John Yorkston's comments on the situation, after having discussions with current SPL chairmen this week. The newco will not be voted into the league.

[blackpoolhibs]

"let's just have 2 leagues, demote Der Hun and they can get back into the top flight within a year."..... what a load of bollox.

Are they wanting to make the top league an 18 team league, something they have battled against saying it wouldn't work?:confused:

[HibbyAndy]

Are they wanting to make the top league an 18 team league, something they have battled against saying it wouldn't work?:confused:


Precisely:agree:


Funny that now they are looking into restructuring it eh:confused:

[rcarter1]

Having spoken to a friend who has worked for HMRC for about 15 years, a few points came up.

1. Rangers could have agreed to pay back all of their debts including the big tax case (ball park 80 Million total) in about 10 years, by using 10m per year of their approximate yearly 30M turnover. This of course would have reduced their wage bills and player quality. They CHOSE not to do this.

2. Liquidation should now result in Duff and Phelps being replaced by an HMRC appointed liquidator. Apparently the liquidator can scrap the Green purchase, and auction off Rangers assets, players, Stadium etc in order to get more than the 5.5 Million. In short Green doesn't have a leg to stand on if an objective liquidator carries out his/her job correctly.

3. HMRC should be in a position after liquidation to chase up individuals - i.e. David Murray to follow up the tax bill.

4. Green states that player contracts mean they have to stay with the club. My friends understanding of this is the opposite - which is to say that the newo is obliged to offer the same contracts - but the players are under no obligation to accept them. In essence the rules are there to prevent companies laying off staff without paying redundancy by changing into a new company.

All of this and other evidence points to - Green being either completely out of his depth and heading for a rude awakening, OR there is rather worrying amount of corruption of the rules to allow his 'scam' to succeed.

As a final aside, Rangers in my view should bite the bullet and get to the third division. The alternative of 10 years handicapped operating budget has been conveniently side stepped at the expense of the tax payer.

If they slide out of this, I hope there will be not only a fans walkout (which unfortunately probably hurts us not rangers), but a serious legal enquiry into the whole situation.

[Caversham Green]

This is the problem faced by Rangers, the SPL and the SFA.
There is a real danger that this is turning into a 'we all hate Rangers so lets kill them off' while hiding behind the sporting integrity banner.
In two other threads I've asked what the crimes are that Rangers have committed and what punishments are available for these crimes, not what people want to see happen to them. I've not seen a reply to either yet.
If the SPL members have to vote on a new company entering the SPL under the circumstances that Rangers find themselves in now, and, there is no precedent set for such a set of circumstances then it has to be based on why they should not be allowed in.
This seems to be what is being said in as much as each case will be looked at on its own merit.

If Rangers are allowed to re enter the SPL it will either be with cripling sanctions or with acceptance that they will be liable for the crimes of GRFC.
If the allegations on double contracts and misuse of EBT's are proven to be correct then the outcome is likely to be expulsion from the SPL.

This does not have a 'happy ever after' endline.

That's all fair comment. To answer your question re RFC's crimes, they have been found guilty of:

Going into administration - Penalty 10 point deduction. This has been seen to be totally inadequate as RFC finished in the exact same position as they would have had the penalty not been applied. On the other hand, if Hibs had been guilty of the same crime they would have been relegated and all other non-OF clubs would have lost at least one place in the league. The inadequacy of the penalty is not RFC's fault however, and steps have been taken to change the penalties for the future.
Bringing the game into disrepute/failure to pay taxes - there were multiple crimes here but the main advantage gained by RFC was cash availability over a period of 9 months that was greater than the combined annual turnover of the third and fourth biggest clubs in the league. That is, they had more money to pay players' wages through dishonest means alone than two of their three main competitors had between them. They will not be repaying that money. Penalty £160,000 fine (just over 1% of the amount misappropriated) - unpaid, plus a further sanction yet to be determined. They chose to challenge what was a reasonably light sanction in the civil courts.
Failure to produce audited accounts by the required deadline - penalty disqualification from the forthcoming European Champions League. A further penalty of disqualification from Scottish competitions has not been applied.
The new company that is seeking to take RFC's place in Scottish football is ineligible for European competitions for three seasons - that's not a penalty it's a fact of life.
They stand accused of wilfully misleading the Scottish football authorities regarding the nature of players' payments but the new company is seeking to avoid any penalties for this, plus those at the second bullet point while retaining the old club's status within Scottish football.

Until the recent change in the rules there were no provisions for allowing a new club into the SPL - in fact there was a strong argument that the rules prohibited this - but at the very least they simply did not recognise the concept. Aside from the perception that the SFA and more particularly the SPL will be bending or breaking the rules to allow a Newco in, the real worry is that the Newco will escape the penalties incurred by the Oldco while retaining the Oldco's footballing benefits. There is a precedent for this situation, albeit not in the SPL. Gretna FC went the same way as the old Rangers FC and the club that took on their 'personality' has had to start at the bottom of the Scottish football food chain. Is there any sporting reason why the new Rangers FC should be treated any differently?

[Spike Mandela]

Link here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18471197

Looks like Regan is taking charge and is clearly fed up with SPL faffing. :agree:

So Mr Regan taking charge by errrrm organising a few meetings . Oh yeah this is the decisive action we need.

Sooner or later one or all sets of authorities will come up with the solution they need which is a punishment for Rangers that looks like a punishment but isn't really a punishment. Pat each other on the back, then carry on as normal and we'll all plod along behind like the good sheep we are.

[Caversham Green]

Are they wanting to make the top league an 18 team league, something they have battled against saying it wouldn't work?:confused:

To be fair I think that's the SPL rather than the SFA that have been saying that. The SPL management is consistently proving itself to be not fit for purpose.

[jgl07]

"let's just have 2 leagues, demote Der Hun and they can get back into the top flight within a year."..... what a load of bollox.

I would take that one.

And I claim the prize for the 12,000th post!

[The Green Goblin]

So Mr Regan taking charge by errrrm organising a few meetings . Oh yeah this is the decisive action we need.

Sooner or later one or all sets of authorities will come up with the solution they need which is a punishment for Rangers that looks like a punishment but isn't really a punishment. Pat each other on the back, then carry on as normal and we'll all plod along behind like the good sheep we are.


Judging by a lot of comments on here and from fans of other clubs, that will not be the case. And quite right too.

[The Falcon]

This is the problem faced by Rangers, the SPL and the SFA.
There is a real danger that this is turning into a 'we all hate Rangers so lets kill them off' while hiding behind the sporting integrity banner.
In two other threads I've asked what the crimes are that Rangers have committed and what punishments are available for these crimes, not what people want to see happen to them. I've not seen a reply to either yet.


Not sure about the punishments but, in football terms, they have bumped Rapid Vienna, Hearts, Dunfermline, Celtic, Dundee United, ICT, SFA and the SPL. They have also paid players through unauthorised and undeclared means which, given the testimony of B.Dodds esquire, amounts to some sort of dual contract as B.Dodds states that he recieved his wages from Rangers and from a non-EBT. While, as is frequently pointed out EBT's are legal, it is clear from Dodds statement that this was not an EBT. Dodds says he recieved his wages, after tax was deducted.

All this was done to gain an unfair advantage over their rivals.

On a more serious note I think they are in serious danger of facing tax evasion charges, given that they were warned about their particular use of EBT's back in 2008. I also think the taxman will be knocking on a number of doors of both former employees and former directors, even current employees, to ask for an explanation of their tax returns and how they came by the funds they did, as cited by Mark Daly (BBC).
They should have paperwork to accompany these payments and I suspect they will also pass the buck right back to Rangers. Campbell Ogilvie, when you consider his involvement at HMFC on top of the now defunct RFC, is in an inceasingly difficult position. As others have pointed out, by the time the liquidators/taxman are finshed I strongly suspect there will be Police involvement and someone, perhaps a number of people, will be looking at a stay in the Big Hoose.

And thats just what we know.

[Offside Trap]

So Mr Regan taking charge by errrrm organising a few meetings . Oh yeah this is the decisive action we need.

Sooner or later one or all sets of authorities will come up with the solution they need which is a punishment for Rangers that looks like a punishment but isn't really a punishment. Pat each other on the back, then carry on as normal and we'll all plod along behind like the good sheep we are.

Or alternatively Regan is fed up with Doncaster's inaction and is seeking to take accountability for sorting it out. I don't see many running to the front of the queue to grab this mess so the fact that Regan is looking to do so (and he knows is in a lose/lose situation and will get pelters whatever he does) should be welcomed. What (or more to the point who) is the alternative?

[J-C]

Having spoken to a friend who has worked for HMRC for about 15 years, a few points came up.

1. Rangers could have agreed to pay back all of their debts including the big tax case (ball park 80 Million total) in about 10 years, by using 10m per year of their approximate yearly 30M turnover. This of course would have reduced their wage bills and player quality. They CHOSE not to do this.

2. Liquidation should now result in Duff and Phelps being replaced by an HMRC appointed liquidator. Apparently the liquidator can scrap the Green purchase, and auction off Rangers assets, players, Stadium etc in order to get more than the 5.5 Million. In short Green doesn't have a leg to stand on if an objective liquidator carries out his/her job correctly.

3. HMRC should be in a position after liquidation to chase up individuals - i.e. David Murray to follow up the tax bill.

4. Green states that player contracts mean they have to stay with the club. My friends understanding of this is the opposite - which is to say that the newo is obliged to offer the same contracts - but the players are under no obligation to accept them. In essence the rules are there to prevent companies laying off staff without paying redundancy by changing into a new company.

All of this and other evidence points to - Green being either completely out of his depth and heading for a rude awakening, OR there is rather worrying amount of corruption of the rules to allow his 'scam' to succeed.

As a final aside, Rangers in my view should bite the bullet and get to the third division. The alternative of 10 years handicapped operating budget has been conveniently side stepped at the expense of the tax payer.

If they slide out of this, I hope there will be not only a fans walkout (which unfortunately probably hurts us not rangers), but a serious legal enquiry into the whole situation.


The players had a contract with Glasgow Rangers, a company which doesn't exist anymore, therefore their contracts are now null and void. Yes they can offer the same contracts but these players will now be free agents and can move when ever they like.

[lapsedhibee]

If we stick to the facts, keep the proven rule breaches in the spotlight no one can be accused of a witch hunt. The truth will out.

Turning your general question right back at ya, can you provide any specific examples of witch hunting on here or in the general media?

I see regular accusations of witch hunting directed at Alex Thomson, but judge the accusers to be knuckledraggers (on account of their generally having usernames like queenandcountryexcepthector1690, etc).

[Kato]

This should be merged into the Big Huge Zombie Hun Thread of Fun but I just wanted to ask as the question got lost in the mire of that thread.

The RTC Blog suggests W H Smith (guess what the H stands for) was being paid money illegally from an EBT as manager of Rangers, Everton and possibly Scotland it seems to me he's probably guilty of some kind of underhandedness - so if so is he a fit and proper person to own a Scottish football club?

[HFC 0-7]

The announcement about lookingto make the SPL right down to SFL3 governed by one body could be to accommodate Rangers in division 3, 2 or 1. As I see it the SPL can only say Rangers are in the SPL or they are not. They cannot make the decision to allow them into any other division, so it may be that alligning all the dvisions into one body so that the SFA can make the decision to allow rangers into one of the leagues. They may also take this opportunity to increase the top league size so that thw like of spartans, gala etc can get a spot in the leagues and not be able to complain or take action if Rangers get kicked out and immediately allowed into SFL3.

IMO, there is no route for a new rangers to be allowed into the league apart from the SPL under the current structure. With the world watching the authorties need to make sure they are doing everything by the book, they cant be seen showing favouritism, so they will change things to make everyone happy - apart from Rangers if they start in division 3.

[whiskyhibby]

The announcement about lookingto make the SPL right down to SFL3 governed by one body could be to accommodate Rangers in division 3, 2 or 1. As I see it the SPL can only say Rangers are in the SPL or they are not. They cannot make the decision to allow them into any other division, so it may be that alligning all the dvisions into one body so that the SFA can make the decision to allow rangers into one of the leagues. They may also take this opportunity to increase the top league size so that thw like of spartans, gala etc can get a spot in the leagues and not be able to complain or take action if Rangers get kicked out and immediately allowed into SFL3.

IMO, there is no route for a new rangers to be allowed into the league apart from the SPL under the current structure. With the world watching the authorties need to make sure they are doing everything by the book, they cant be seen showing favouritism, so they will change things to make everyone happy - apart from Rangers if they start in division 3.

Hopefully Uefa will be keeping an eye on what the Hun apologists in the SFA/SPL try to do

[Spike Mandela]

Or alternatively Regan is fed up with Doncaster's inaction and is seeking to take accountability for sorting it out. I don't see many running to the front of the queue to grab this mess so the fact that Regan is looking to do so (and he knows is in a lose/lose situation and will get pelters whatever he does) should be welcomed. What (or more to the point who) is the alternative?

And what if the SPL simply say no? More sabre rattling by the SFA. They talked about doing this earlier on in the administration process to try and move things along, that worked, NOT.

I like Mr Regan and feel his frustration and share his attitude to governance and the idea of one ruling body but the SPL(ie the clubs) are simply too powerful and won't roll over to get their tummy's tickled. I don't believe Mr Regan has others behind him within his organistion with the stomach or the nous to fight for this.

[NAE NOOKIE]

A restructure of the leagues with a bigger top league and newco rankgers starting off in the second tier will do for me.

I want to see der hun punished, but for better or worse they are Scotland's 1st or 2nd biggest club. Not all of their supporters are of the Billy boy knuckle dragging variety and at the end of the day should be given the chance of continuing to support their club.

What I wont accept is a newco in the top league ( whatever that consists of ) when next season kicks off.

[magpie1892]

for better or worse they are Scotland's 1st or 2nd biggest club.

Were Scotland's 1st or 2nd biggest club. I think when Hector, the SFA, the SPL, Strathclyde's finest, maybe UEFA/FIFA, etc. are finished with them, they may never return.

[DC_Hibs]

Were Scotland's 1st or 2nd biggest club. I think when Hector, the SFA, the SPL, Strathclyde's finest, maybe UEFA/FIFA, etc. are finished with them, they may never return.

I would have quoted that part of his post as well but my follow on would have been:

What the fek does that matter. Should we just lie down to them and the media because the big two have ruled the roost for 25 years.

BOVRIL, do you work in the scottish media as thats their viewpoint as well.

Ridiculous coming from a Hibs fan.

[magpie1892]

BOVRIL, do you work in the scottish media as thats their viewpoint as well.


Bit harsh, DC, as I know a great many Scottish journalists and at least half of them think all their Christmases have come at once.

[joe breezy]

Were Scotland's 1st or 2nd biggest club. I think when Hector, the SFA, the SPL, Strathclyde's finest, maybe UEFA/FIFA, etc. are finished with them, they may never return.

only if the new company can be punished for the actions of an old company, which they should seeing as they're still profiting on cheating by keeping the badge, the name and their corrupt history

Although they'll say 'we've been punished enough' especially when stripped of titles

[NAE NOOKIE]

I would have quoted that part of his post as well but my follow on would have been:

What the fek does that matter. Should we just lie down to them and the media because the big two have ruled the roost for 25 years.

BOVRIL, do you work in the scottish media as thats their viewpoint as well.

Ridiculous coming from a Hibs fan.

Who the **** !!! was talking about lying down to them !!!

Read the rest of my posts on this or any other thread devoted to this subject, my opinion on the media's part in this sorry episode is crystal clear.

I was trying to be the voice of moderation here that was all. I get the impression that some people would like to see rangers out of business for good and nothing to replace them. I for one have massively enjoyed the few times I have seen Hibs pump them and I would like the opportunity to see it happen again, after they have taken what they deserve. And yes I actually do know a few rangers fans who are decent folk and I for one dont want to see them lose their club, the same as I would hope that when Hibs were on the brink fans of other clubs would ( at the time ) hope that for me.

I would tolerate them in an SPL 2 at the start of the next season, though I would prefer the 3rd division. But that doesnt mean I dont detest rangers arrogance, the simpering media and the unfortunately massive number of idiots who follow that club and their bull**** at ER and everywhere else.

My post was a reasonable one and is not in any way "rediculous" and to suggest ( as you appear to be doing ) that I am in any way some sort of hun or weegie media apologist is quite frankly bloody insulting.

Oh ... and I wasnt suggesting either that rangers should get special treatment due to the size of the club, they should get the same treatment as any other club in the same situation. But the fact remains that they are a large part of the economy of Scottish football, like it or not and once they have been properly punished we should take advantage of that. But not by letting them take advantage of us as they have in the past with their celtic bedfellows.

[magpie1892]

only if the new company can be punished for the actions of an old company, which they should seeing as they're still profiting on cheating by keeping the badge, the name and their corrupt history

Although they'll say 'we've been punished enough' especially when stripped of titles

1) Which they can - and, I agree, most likely will. The titles are gone though. They can keep the badge, and put 40 stars on their shirt if it pleases them, but the history died with the club.
2) They've been saying this for a while, but the surface hasn't been scratched (as has been discussed further up this thread and elswhere in the land of 'internet bampottery')

[joe breezy]

1) Which they can - and, I agree, most likely will. The titles are gone though. They can keep the badge, and put 40 stars on their shisrt if it pleases them, but the history died with the club.
2) They've been saying this for a while, but the surface hasn't been scratched (as has been discussed further up this thread and elswhere in the land of 'internet bampottery'

I hope you're right - there is a chance that Murray and Whyte go on trial for tax evasion whilst new 'the Rangers' are back quite soon but I think they will be severely weakened as transfer ban will be the least of their worries

It looks like the league may get restructured to accommodate them but at the moment they are losing all their players and running out of time to have a football team in place for whatever league they're going to be in

[magpie1892]

It looks like the league may get restructured to accommodate them but at the moment they are losing all their players and running out of time to have a football team in place for whatever league they're going to be in

I know. And it's deeply, deeply worrying.:agree:

[cabbageandribs1875]

I would take that one.

And I claim the prize for the 12,000th post!

yer one oot

CG has that distinction :wink:

[jgl07]

yer one oot

CG has that distinction :wink:

Someone slipped a extra post in. It was 12000 when I posted it.

I blame the mods!

[Kaiser1962]

Were Scotland's 1st or 2nd biggest club. I think when Hector, the SFA, the SPL, Strathclyde's finest, maybe UEFA/FIFA, etc. are finished with them, they may never return.

UEFA/FIFA will only get involved if the others dont do their job properly.

I have always felt that we were watching a well laid plan unfold but I am beginning to think Hector has thrown an almighty spanner in the works. And he's not finished yet. Hopefully.

[ScottB]

I came to a conclusion while arguing with a St Johnstone fan, who was adamant they must be kept in the SPL because anything else meant doom for us all (don't get me started).

This country is a joke.

Nowhere else would this even be a discussion point. The Italians relegated Juventus and hammer Milan for match fixing and relegated Fiorentina for going the newco route, the French relegated Monaco and the Swiss relegated 4 clubs from their top league for financial issues.

Yet here we are, with our media, politicians and other assorted hangers on clambering for a club that is, for me, guilty of FAR worse actions then I have read about ANY other club having committed, anywhere, ever, to get to carry on as if nothing has happened, and that we, apparently petty, small minded 'others' should be grateful?

I've crossed fully into being totally and utterly disgusted. Even if they end up in SFL3, the fact that we've even had this, as a discussion, is bad enough.

[Onion]

Anyone thought about writing directly to UEFA and FIFA about this situation, and the general feelings of Scottish fans about what is going on and the strong possibility of NewHuns being invited straight into the top league - having left a shameful legacy of debt, crime, tax-evasion and cheating. Not saying they'll sit up and take note of one letter, but anything that throws a spotlight what is going on here and the fears we all have for s stitch up (clearly against UEFA's mantra of "Fair Play") can't do any harm.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Someone slipped a extra post in. It was 12000 when I posted it.

I blame the mods!



just like THE rangers, always blaming someone else :agree::greengrin

[jgl07]

I came to a conclusion while arguing with a St Johnstone fan, who was adamant they must be kept in the SPL because anything else meant doom for us all (don't get me started).

This country is a joke.

Nowhere else would this even be a discussion point. The Italians relegated Juventus and hammer Milan for match fixing and relegated Fiorentina for going the newco route, the French relegated Monaco and the Swiss relegated 4 clubs from their top league for financial issues.


Remember that the French bust Marseilles to the Second Division in 1994 following match fixing allegations. They were the holders of the Champions' League the season before and by far the biggest club in France.

They won promotion but got relegated again when further allegations came out and did not return to the top flight until 1996.

[jonty]

This is the problem faced by Rangers, the SPL and the SFA.
There is a real danger that this is turning into a 'we all hate Rangers so lets kill them off' while hiding behind the sporting integrity banner.
In two other threads I've asked what the crimes are that Rangers have committed and what punishments are available for these crimes, not what people want to see happen to them. I've not seen a reply to either yet.
If the SPL members have to vote on a new company entering the SPL under the circumstances that Rangers find themselves in now, and, there is no precedent set for such a set of circumstances then it has to be based on why they should not be allowed in.
This seems to be what is being said in as much as each case will be looked at on its own merit.

If Rangers are allowed to re enter the SPL it will either be with cripling sanctions or with acceptance that they will be liable for the crimes of GRFC.
If the allegations on double contracts and misuse of EBT's are proven to be correct then the outcome is likely to be expulsion from the SPL.

This does not have a 'happy ever after' endline.
your questions regarding the crimes committed have been answered, so I don't need to repeat them.
my post isn't a which hunt, and it's not hiding behind sporting integrity. It's about doing the right thing, and playing by the rules - pure and simple.

If the new owners want the history of the club then that's all well and good - but have to accept the good with the bad.

[Eyrie]

The players had a contract with Glasgow Rangers, a company which doesn't exist anymore, therefore their contracts are now null and void. Yes they can offer the same contracts but these players will now be free agents and can move when ever they like.
On the other hand, all the normal background employees at Huns RIP will have the right to transfer over to New Huns on the same conditions which will create a problem as, unless they are in the SPL , they won't be able to afford to pay all the admin staff, cleaners, groundstaff, youth coaches etc. Very few jobs out there at the moment, so those background employees on normal wages would be daft not to move over, even if only to secure redundancy payments.

[CropleyWasGod]

The players had a contract with Glasgow Rangers, a company which doesn't exist anymore, therefore their contracts are now null and void. Yes they can offer the same contracts but these players will now be free agents and can move when ever they like.

1. the old company does still exist.

2. the employments can be transferred. The players are not free agents.

[jgl07]

1. the old company does still exist.

2. the employments can be transferred. The players are not free agents.

The contracts do transfer on the same terms but as it followed an insolvency event, the employees have to right to opt out.

They can become free agents if they wish.

[CropleyWasGod]

The contracts do transfer on the same terms but as it followed an insolvency event, the employees have to right to opt out.

They can become free agents if they wish.

Yes, I agree. The default position is transfer, which is what I was disagreeing with the previous poster on. At present, they are not "free agents".

On that point, have the SPFA said anything?

[Bighoose]

On twitter...
Tom English ‏@TomEnglishSport (https://twitter.com/#!/TomEnglishSport)
Malcolm Murray in the Sunday papers talking about SPL clubs having a "suicide pact" if they keep Rangers out. Not one for mincing his words

Newco. New Chairman. Same old pi$h.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Yes, I agree. The default position is transfer, which is what I was disagreeing with the previous poster on. At present, they are not "free agents".

On that point, have the SPFA said anything?

http://pfascotland.co.uk/2012/news/pfa-scotland-explains-tupe-position/

[jgl07]

Yes, I agree. The default position is transfer, which is what I was disagreeing with the previous poster on. At present, they are not "free agents".

On that point, have the SPFA said anything?

They have certainly put out a statement that confirms the players rights to opt out. They clearly consulted employment lawyers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18446597

[CropleyWasGod]

http://pfascotland.co.uk/2012/news/pfa-scotland-explains-tupe-position/

Cheers for that.

So no fait accompli yet. The players won't be sure they want to move until they know what League they're in. Seems sensible to me.

And the longer the uncertainty remains, the more likely they are to take an offer from someone else.

Lovely :greengrin

[magpie1892]

Source for latest bracketed info in headline? (fixture list)

[CentreLine]

On the TV post-mortem the other night the tax expert on ITV said that the name of the newco could not be Rangers anything it had to be a completely new company and that the name “The Rangers Football Club” was simply a trading name not the name of the company. A flag of convenience if you like. That being the case, do we know what the real name of the new company actually is? I am certain we might want to include it in a song after all :stirrer:

So does nobody know what the real name of the new company is?

[Nuitdelune]

Yes, I agree. The default position is transfer, which is what I was disagreeing with the previous poster on. At present, they are not "free agents".

On that point, have the SPFA said anything?

TUPE was designed to stop new owners getting rid of the old staff, to protect them and make sure the new owners inherited them, their terms, length of service etc. This is the reverse situation. They cannot be forced to transfer but will have to opt out though don't know when/how they do it without reading the legislation. Odd thing is--how does Charles Green not know this

[CropleyWasGod]

TUPE was designed to stop new owners getting rid of the old staff, to protect them and make sure the new owners inherited them, their terms, length of service etc. This is the reverse situation. They cannot be forced to transfer but will have to opt out though don't know when/how they do it without reading the legislation. Odd thing is--how does Charles Green not know this

I'm sure he does know it, and will be doing his best to get the high-value players to stay. If he IS an asset-stripper, then it would make sense to offer those players inducements to transfer, with a promise to accept the first £xm offer that is made.

2-3 situations like that, and he's made money.

[down-the-slope]

So does nobody know what the real name of the new company is?

SEVCO...come on man keep up..that was about 100 pages ago :greengrin

[Nuitdelune]

I'm sure he does know it, and will be doing his best to get the high-value players to stay. If he IS an asset-stripper, then it would make sense to offer those players inducements to transfer, with a promise to accept the first £xm offer that is made.

2-3 situations like that, and he's made money.

That is true but why go on the telly making statements that are not correct, might fool the player but not the agent. I wondered whether fixed term employees/football players are different, though surely can't be so.

[CropleyWasGod]

That is true but why go on the telly making statements that are not correct, might fool the player but not the agent. I wondered whether fixed term employees/football players are different, though surely can't be so.

Not according to the SPFA's statement.

[Nuitdelune]

Not according to the SPFA's statement.

And of course must factor in that some of them would be 'feart' not to go in case they were not still with Rangers, The Rangers, Any Rangers...

[jgl07]

I'm sure he does know it, and will be doing his best to get the high-value players to stay. If he IS an asset-stripper, then it would make sense to offer those players inducements to transfer, with a promise to accept the first £xm offer that is made.

2-3 situations like that, and he's made money.

But why would a high value player who was aware that he was going to be punted ofr a profit not simply opt out and negotiate as a free agent and have the transfer sum as a signing on fee.

The players who will be keen to move are those who would have problems finding a new club, at least on their current wages.

Let's face it the likes of Naismith, Whittakar, Wallace, and McGregor are not going to play Division Three. I expect they will be away as soon as the position is more clear.

If Rangers are due to be bumped they need to pretty well clear out most of the senior staff and will be reliant on the youth team.

Until such time as Green sells out, cash will be very short as there will be next to no season ticket money forthcoming so there may be no option.

[jgl07]

That is true but why go on the telly making statements that are not correct, might fool the player but not the agent. I wondered whether fixed term employees/football players are different, though surely can't be so.

Because he is an ignorant Yorkshire buffoon?

[Nuitdelune]

Because he is an ignorant Yorkshire buffoon?

:greengrin

[HFC 0-7]

Reading the article on the Bbc website about the sfa getting involved to restructure the leagues, they say they are doing it to distribute wealth better and stop the rangers situation happening again. Seems strange that because the rangers situation was sheer greed on their part, they weren't happy spending on par with Celtic and considerably more than the rest, so distributing wealth more fairly wont stop a team insisting to spend more than they can afford. I think they are just doing it to make sure they can let rangers back into one of the leagues.

[Col2]

I can't be the only person is sick and tired of the whole saga.

Yes Rangers are no more and they are replaced by The Rangers. This will run and run and run.

The thing that gets me in all of this and is rarely mentioned on here, by pundits, the media etc etc..... Is.....Rangers FC CAUSED this, they are FULLY ACCOUNTABLE for the mess and the disruption to the league, the other clubs, supporters and the image of Scottish Football.

Despite all this I have seen ZERO humility shown by anyone with any kind of association with RFC. David Murray, Craig Whyte, Charles Green, Ally McCoist, Sandy Jardine, Gordon Smith, Rangers Supporters Assxociations and every single rangers fan I have spoken to.

At best you get a 'I know we were in the wrong BUT *insert 101 excuse and blame of someone else*.

The irony for us is that we have run a tight ship for last 7 years or so much to the pain on the park. Now we need to rebuild our squad and I can't think anything other than Fenlons budget will be restricted by those fans including me who refuse to renew for next season while this rumbles on.

Really sad sad state of affairs when only two people who fans are giving credit to over last 4 months is Channel 4 journalist and blogger and BBC Panarama journalist.

[Jack]

So does nobody know what the real name of the new company is?

Zombiehuns, for goodness sake keep up here;-)

[Hibby Hippy]

Source for latest bracketed info in headline? (fixture list)

Only thing i can find is this.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/106461-spl-considering-replacing-rangers-with-team-x-on-201213-fixture-list/

[Dashing Bob S]

On twitter...
Tom English ‏@TomEnglishSport (https://twitter.com/#!/TomEnglishSport)
Malcolm Murray in the Sunday papers talking about SPL clubs having a "suicide pact" if they keep Rangers out. Not one for mincing his words

Newco. New Chairman. Same old pi$h.

Which we're a lot less inclined to put up with now. So this tiresome arrogant chest-beating/threatening, might just be a gross miscalculation. I only hope that the SPL chairmen's responses are as unequivocal.

[iwasthere1972]

So does nobody know what the real name of the new company is?

Rumour is that it will


Taxus Rangers

[HibbyRod]

TUPE was designed to stop new owners getting rid of the old staff, to protect them and make sure the new owners inherited them, their terms, length of service etc. This is the reverse situation. They cannot be forced to transfer but will have to opt out though don't know when/how they do it without reading the legislation. Odd thing is--how does Charles Green not know this
Crazy really!!!

[Lungo--Drom]

It was the Daily Telegraph I read it in. Quite a long article.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9335076/Rangers-to-be-excluded-from-SPL-fixture-list.html

I was gonna drive up there and pee on the top but my missus wouldn't lend me her car :(



Only thing i can find is this.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/106461-spl-considering-replacing-rangers-with-team-x-on-201213-fixture-list/

[Jim44]

This sums up where they all think they are at -

"The club didn't die - it simply shed itself of all sorts of debts it could never pay in one fell swoop. The club is now debt free and will probably end up playing in the SPL next year: the club is stronger now than it has been for some time."

Laughable, but, sadly, the last two statements aren't too far off the mark.

[blackpoolhibs]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/rangers/2009/10/16/walter-smith-scottish-football-will-die-if-old-firm-are-denied-move-elsewhere-86908-21751069/

Which is it Walter, Scottish football will die with or without you, i'm a little confused? :confused:

[hibbyfrankie]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/rangers-liquidation-sfa-league-merger-could-drop-rangers-just-one-division-1-2359952

So we don't get a larger league and the newco drop 1 division debt free. Somehow it doesn't feel right.

[ScottB]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/rangers-liquidation-sfa-league-merger-could-drop-rangers-just-one-division-1-2359952

So we don't get a larger league and the newco drop 1 division debt free. Somehow it doesn't feel right.

At which point Livingston and the clubs that lost the SFL2 and 3 playoffs immediately launch legal action.

Honestly, they have just about found a gap in the rules to justify weaselling them back into the SPL, but how the hell do they find a reason to put them in the first division? It's an utter nonsense.

[ac1]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/rangers-liquidation-sfa-league-merger-could-drop-rangers-just-one-division-1-2359952

So we don't get a larger league and the newco drop 1 division debt free. Somehow it doesn't feel right.


That is embarassing. Is there no end to the SFA/SPL corruption??

If they do this its just for Rangers to come back within a year - bending, completely changing rules for a dead football team

Sickening - every fan in Scotland (Sevco FC apart) need to stick together on this or the Scottish game is finished.

[Sunny1875]

Have been Hearing strong Rumours that a consortium led by someone only identified as MR White, is to table a bid to buy Greece from majority shareholder Germany, Administrators Fudds an Helps have been put in place to take Greece into administration shortly after the sale. Greece will then be Liquidated. But a holding country, The Greece 2012 will buy the Acropolis, the Greek mainland and associated Islands. The Greek Citizens will then be able to Tupe Transfer to the new nation which will be debt free, and face no further sanctions. It is believed Mr Whites consortium have financed the deal by selling options on future Greek holidays to Tricketus travel and sports organizers.

[IWasThere2016]

I heard FaceBook is worth billions and Greece has sent a Friend Request.

[Hibs07p]

I posted this on another thread on 13th June.

I would go a step further and suspend them for a minimum of 3, 4, 5, years for any newco, to close a loophole, that might exist, if they are be able to negotiate an entry into the SFL at division 1. They would stoop to any level to try and secure an early return to the SPL, by trying to "buy" a place in the first division. A fixed term suspension would prevent that.

This type of sanction must be included in any form of punishment. If there is a fast track merger of SPL and SFL, there must also be a fast track change of rules allowing a fixed term suspension if it does not exist already.

[Lungo--Drom]

I found the following on the UK Government legislation website so this is an actual quote from The Law Of The Land:

(8) Subject to paragraphs (9) and (11), where an employee so objects, the relevant transfer shall operate so as to terminate his contract of employment with the transferor but he shall not be treated, for any purpose, as having been dismissed by the transferor.

[stokesmessiah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/18460193

Has anyone seen this clip, two point i would like to make.

1) He looks like a drunk tramp.
2) He is your typical hun f***, arrogant, rude and stupid.

[BroxburnHibee]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/rangers-liquidation-sfa-league-merger-could-drop-rangers-just-one-division-1-2359952

So we don't get a larger league and the newco drop 1 division debt free. Somehow it doesn't feel right.

Nicked this from the comments but it sums everything up perfectly - email it to the club :agree:

The simple fact is that RFC (rip) were clearly guilty of a huge array of offences from willful avoidance of tax to the state, and what increasingly look like "illegal "parallel" contracts, failure to submit acc'ts etc etc...the list is a long one. In addition, as the aggrieved parties in all of this, other SPL clubs have been openly threatened with sanctions and boycotts (clearly supported by RFC and headed up by a well-known former player). Whatever else, the other SPL clubs DID NOT cause rangers demise, in spite of a voting system leaning heavily in the favour of the OF. In addition, we see on a daily basis many Rangers fans telling us in all manner of outlets that we in fact are the one's who are at Armageddon's door, with a "we can't survive without them" stance with varying degrees of bullishness and arrogance. Bottom line however is that, like a whole swaithe of Scottish fans I LOVE my football, but I DON'T love it enough that I'd be willing to overlook these Rangers offences, nor would I be prepared to continue to support MY club were it to show such invisible backbone and lack of any sense of fair play and integrity that would allow them to even CONSIDER voting other than to see any "newco" in the leagues at anything above the third division...which frankly i see as a truly miniscule sentence in the circumstances. We then get to "what will SPL chairmen do??". Well, that's a matter for them of course, and they will surely do what THEY think is best for THEIR clubs,,,,,,but it is encumbent on EVERY SPL fan outside the defunct RFC to lobby HIS club and make HIS views known, as I have already done...and frankly I simply will NEVER return to the club I LOVE if they surrender any pretence to integrity. We ALL have to come through hard economic times on occasions, but it's a very moot point indeed whether any SPL chairman will consider that, in order to have ONE Rangers fan attend his home match, he might (and often WILL) lose a number of his OWN core fans who attend EVERY game...and that's why the simple "we'll lose the money from Rangers fans" simply isn't credible. What IS the point of pandering to a Rangers fan group who visit once (at best twice) a year??? ...which incidentally (I've looked at the figures) means that a home visit by Rangers means an increase in the average gate of some 2,000 additional (presumably Rangers) fans , and while it's true that the club would not WISH to lose that revenue, it's hardly terminal, as the Ibrox spin would have it. Finally, even Rangers fans must query the system whereby the "accused"is allowed to effectively sit in the jury room with the jury as they deliberate a verdict, and are EVEN ALLOWED A VOTE ON THAT VERDICT. The whole CONCEPT of such a system is more redolent of the ideas of democracy in the old Soviet bloc or in Mugabe's Zimbabwe rather than in the modern, progressive democrac that we all hope to be. Time for Rangers fans to cast off the denial...the Armageddon is HERE...they need to face the TRUTH in all it's painful ...and shameful...aspects and it is only through such conversion that there is ANY CHANCE WHATEVER that their rehabilitation can even begin.

[Caversham Green]

Good reply, Thanks for that.
The first bullet point really ends after the bit in bold. The impact of the points deduction has never been taken into account so it is correct as things stand. Agreed, the second bit is just my commentary on the issue
The second bullet point, the bringing the game into disrepute charge was poorly judged but it needed hindsight to recognise this. The issue now will be can the disrepute charge be applied to the new company. If Rangers are allowed to continue in the SPL I would hope the charges would then be able to be applied which may result in expulsion. I don't think the charge was poorly judged - they were found guilty by two independent panels and the civil court in no way criticised it. The decision by the civil court that the punishment was not available remains debatable in the absence of an appeal, but the fact that RFC chose to take the matter outwith the sport attacks the basic principle that all sports should be self-regulating.
The failure to pay taxes resulted in the appointment of administrators as a penalty. I would argue that administration and non-payment of taxes are two separate (albeit connected) issues. In any case, iy RFC themselves who eventually appointed the administrators - their choice to seek to avoid their debts.
Third bullet point, I wasn't aware of the possible Scottish sanctions, cheers for the heads up, their should be an explanation on how the decision was reached.
Fourth bullet point:aok:

Fifth, A major headache for the SPL but they will have to work out a black and white answer, Sanctions against old company cannot be applied to new company = No route into SPL as with any other new application. I've said a few times now that the issue is not as complicated as some are determined to make it appear - either newco is a continuation of oldco or it isn't. RFC must take all the consequences from whichever way it is construed.
Sanctions against old company can be applied to new company, Allow new company to join SPL but expel as a result of past crimes.
This has implications for any other club facing financial problems and liquidation in particular.

The last bit? There is no sporting reason, or other reason, to treat Rangers differently. This is an absolute major point and we have to make sure we aren't making things up to punish them differently because they will challenge again and win if we stray from the facts and work outwith the bounds of what the SPL can do, that would be a breach of sporting integrity.

If we stick to the facts, keep the proven rule breaches in the spotlight no one can be accused of a witch hunt. The truth will out.

A few comments in green up there.

I think you're right that we need to separate the wheat from the chaff in these debates. There's a lot of bluster emanating from both sides now and some on here now appear to be arguing that Rangers should be punished purely for being Rangers. That's not helped by them attempting to avoid responsibilities for their crimes, but it could become counter-productive because it provides them with a blanket defence.

On the other hand we must not allow second-rate journalists such as Traynor and Young to cloud the issue with their campaign of misinformation either.

[grunt]

Apologies if this has been posted before, but I've not seen it mentioned in any other news media. It seems that Ally McCoist has some questions to answer:

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/327062?


...it was disclosed that the SFA are going to charge him over his outburst in April when he demanded to know the names of the members of the SFA’s Independent Judicial Panel.

[Hibs Class]

A few comments in green up there.

I think you're right that we need to separate the wheat from the chaff in these debates. There's a lot of bluster emanating from both sides now and some on here now appear to be arguing that Rangers should be punished purely for being Rangers. That's not helped by them attempting to avoid responsibilities for their crimes, but it could become counter-productive because it provides them with a blanket defence.

On the other hand we must not allow second-rate journalists such as Traynor and Young to cloud the issue with their campaign of misinformation either.


One thing this episode has done is show the likes of traynor their true light, and they are nowhere near being as good as second rate. They are found wanting in almost every aspect of journalistic expertise; a better description would be to call them ignorant arrogant bigots with a keyboard who sadly got lucky due to them living in a country where there is an unlimited demand for the dross they supply.

[down-the-slope]

I've said a few times now that the issue is not as complicated as some are determined to make it appear - either newco is a continuation of oldco or it isn't. RFC must take all the consequences from whichever way it is construed.


Cav this is they key and something i have argued...make it complicated..bit of smoke and mirrors and everyone loses sight of core simple issue...

Is it Rangers FC...with all its history (good and bad) in which case the appelaite tribunal needs to conclude and issue punishment (suspension / removal of licence) and SPL need to conclude dual contract investigation and act on that

or is it SEVCO FC (trading as TRFC) a brand new new football club and company, in which case there is no route to SPL other than by starting at bottong (like Gretna) and working your way up the structure).


what those in Govan are trying to do is like a career criminal changing their name by deed poll and then claiming they have no previous convictions:rolleyes:

[Darth Hibbie]

I've said a few times now that the issue is not as complicated as some are determined to make it appear - either newco is a continuation of oldco or it isn't. RFC must take all the consequences from whichever way it is construed.


Cav this is they key and something i have argued...make it complicated..bit of smoke and mirrors and everyone loses sight of core simple issue...

Is it Rangers FC...with all its history (good and bad) in which case the appelaite tribunal needs to conclude and issue punishment (suspension / removal of licence) and SPL need to conclude dual contract investigation and act on that

or is it SEVCO FC (trading as TRFC) a brand new new football club and company, in which case there is no route to SPL other than by starting at bottong (like Gretna) and working your way up the structure).


what those in Govan are trying to do is like a career criminal changing their name by deed poll and then claiming they have no previous convictions:rolleyes:

I think thats a pretty fair assessment to be honest. The outcomes of the various investigations are where things get slightly muddy for me. I am not sure I trust the SFA/SPL to dish out the appropriate punishment. Hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised.

[CentreLine]

SEVCO...come on man keep up..that was about 100 pages ago :greengrin

:aok:

We hate Se..eh..eh..eh..ev.co
We hate Cel.........................nope, it doesn't really work. We need a few new songs

[Tom Hart RIP]

According to the sunday mail Rod Petrie
met Green in an Edinburgh hotel on Friday?
I thought Rod was at Euro 2012 as he couldn't attend fans meeting at the Hibs club on Saturday?
Someone is wrong.
How dud meeting go by the way?

[CentreLine]

As of now can we please stop referring to "Newco" and "Rangers" but simply refer to the new company that wishes entry to the SPL as SEVCO?

Clearly there is no such football club as Rangers or The Rangers. We are all aware of how important it was for the club that was Rangers to stick strictly to the rules. So it has to be SEVCO from now on. Or at best "SEVCO trading as The Rangers"

Pedantic outburst over

[Mon Dieu4]

According to the sunday mail Rod Petrie
met Green in an Edinburgh hotel on Friday?
I thought Rod was at Euro 2012 as he couldn't attend fans meeting at the Hibs club on Saturday?
Someone is wrong.
How dud meeting go by the way?

Rod is omnipresent, on Friday he was meeting Green, at Stewart Milnes house in Gleneagles and at Euro 2012, he was probably at Easter Road signing new players too, also Rod rhymes with God which could account for his supernatural powers

[Eyrie]

Being precisely pedantic, you mean Sevco 5088 (http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/37d29bbb26f936c7ceadb082a60b4821/compdetails)? There are a lot of Sevcos.

As an aside, I'm slightly surprised this wasn't registered as a Scottish company.

[grunt]

Chris McLaughlin‏@BBCchrismclaug#SPL (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23SPL) investigation into possible dual contracts at #Rangers (http://www.hibs.net/#!/search/%23Rangers) to be put on hold until there's clarity over newco accountability. #BBCSport


Funny that. I thought that when they started their investigation into contract irregularities that they wrote to all teams in the Scottish leagues in an attempt to indicate that this was not just about R*ngers but was an investigation across all clubs?

Now all of a sudden they've halted the investigation because there's uncertainty about the status of one of the clubs?

They seem to change their tune according to which way the wind is blowing...

[Hal Jordan]

:aok:

We hate Se..eh..eh..eh..ev.co
We hate Cel.........................nope, it doesn't really work. We need a few new songs

We hated Glasgow Rangers
We will hate Sevco too
And we hate Hearts and Celtic
But the Hibees we love you.
Altogether now...

:flag:

[Col2]

Funny that. I thought that when they started their investigation into contract irregularities that they wrote to all teams in the Scottish leagues in an attempt to indicate that this was not just about R*ngers but was an investigation across all clubs?

Now all of a sudden they've halted the investigation because there's uncertainty about the status of one of the clubs?

They seem to change their tune according to which way the wind is blowing...

When this sorry sorry mess is resolved and the punishment comes out, Doncaster has to go. Zero leadership, zero consistency, zero confidence.

[Phil D. Rolls]

A suicide pact? Surely that's the existing arrangement? A league that exists to give two teams somewhere to play until the English see sense and let them into the Premiership.

Suicide is to keep going the way we are.

[jane_says]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/18460193

Has anyone seen this clip, two point i would like to make.

1) He looks like a drunk tramp.
2) He is your typical hun f***, arrogant, rude and stupid.

Would love to have a body language expert analyse that, fidgeting, looking away, touching his face, is that not all the classic traits of someone who's lying through his teeth

[grunt]

This doesn't seem to have been posted here yet. Looks like the rumours of Rod meeting Green are true. Also it says that the Gang of 10 had a meeting on Friday. Pressure's building...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2012/06/17/rangers-in-crisis-charles-green-starts-his-charm-offensive-to-win-the-votes-for-spl-survival-86908-23897099/

(Sorry about linking to the DR). Here's the text:


Rangers in crisis: Charles Green starts his charm offensive to win the votes for SPL survival
CHARLES GREEN has started his charm offensive to win the votes Rangers need to stay in the SPL.
MailSport can reveal the new Ibrox owner met with Hibs supremo Rod Petrie at an Edinburgh hotel on Friday afternoon.
Petrie is a powerful player in the SPL’s “Gang of 10” and a major influence on the other clubs. That is why Green was advised to kick off his campaign by meeting the Hibees chairman.
Green, who will have a vote himself on Gers’ future SPL status at a general meeting next month, requires seven votes from the 11 other clubs to keep their top-flight status.
But MailSport understands he would fall short of that number at the moment.
It’s also believed that, as of last night, Rangers have not yet submitted a formal application to the SPL for a transfer of share to the newco.
That’s something the SPL board must have in their hands by the time they meet on Monday before they can call a general meeting, giving 14 days’ notice, for all clubs to vote.
They are now expecting Green to rush this through tomorrow morning – at which point the Yorkshireman will step up his bid to win over the other teams.
Those negotiations will include the potential of adding Rangers’ weight to a change of the SPL voting structure – away from the Old Firm-dominated 11-1 set-up – and a fairer distribution of TV, sponsorship and bonus money.
Rangers’ desperation to remain in the SPL looks certain to end the 14-year, hand-in-hand arrangement they’ve had with Celtic to dominate the SPL and veto plans which didn’t suit their agendas.
It’s understood Green has met with Hoops chief executive Peter Lawwell but there are no plans for further discussions at this stage.
The Gang of 10 also met on Friday to discuss the best way forward for them.
MailSport can reveal that representatives of all the clubs – except Celtic, who did know about the meeting – convened at Aberdeen owner Stewart Milne’s home in Gleneagles to discuss the Rangers situation.
There will be at least one more meeting between them before the vote on a newco Rangers takes place next month.
Meanwhile, claims that the SFA are set to railroad through an immediate merger between the SPL and SFL in time for next season look far-fetched.
The SFA have always been in favour of one league set-up – as well as a better distribution of income and a pyramid system – since their Professional Game Board started looking at plans for reconstruction a year ago.
However, our sources insist that the likelihood of them finding a solution to suit all parties within the next month are unlikely.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Only in Scotland could 10 clubs out of 12 be made to sound like a minority. "The Gang of 10", that's not a faction that's the top division. The longer this goes on, the more I am convinced we must break away from the Glasgow dominated hegemony.

[Hibs Class]

I really don't understand why sevco should think them supporting a change to the 11:1 voting structure is a card they have to play. Given that it is only the OF who now support 11:1, any decision which sees sevco not allowed into the SPL can quickly be followed by another vote of SPL members in which celtc can vote to retain it and the rest of the clubs can support the change to e.g. 8:4

[TrickyNicky]

Only in Scotland could 10 clubs out of 12 be made to sound like a minority. "The Gang of 10", that's not a faction that's the top division. The longer this goes on, the more I am convinced we must break away from the Glasgow dominated hegemony.


I agree, China has nearly 1.5 billion people and they only had a " gang of four"!

[Moody Mulder]

According to the sunday mail Rod Petrie
met Green in an Edinburgh hotel on Friday?
I thought Rod was at Euro 2012 as he couldn't attend fans meeting at the Hibs club on Saturday?
Someone is wrong.
How dud meeting go by the way?

Theres no ******g danger Greeny boy would be allowed anywhere near the Capital with the 80s style suits he wears

[magpie1892]

http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?t=878312

Football club defunct, so we now have this as an (renewed) alternative. It's a wee bit creepy.

[The Green Goblin]

Only in Scotland could 10 clubs out of 12 be made to sound like a minority. "The Gang of 10", that's not a faction that's the top division. The longer this goes on, the more I am convinced we must break away from the Glasgow dominated hegemony.

That's how I saw it too. The word "gang" also has various negative implications: unruly, disorganised, rebellious, a threat, lacking in structure and quality, unpredictable, outside the law/rules and so on.

How dare they meet up without the big two's permission/blessing etc.

[hibs0666]

http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php?t=878312

Football club defunct, so we now have this as an (renewed) alternative. It's a wee bit creepy.

What does it say?