Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[CropleyWasGod]

Murray says if he knew the source of Whyte's funds was Ticketus "categorically we would not have done the deal"

Murray says the deal with Ticketus was "selling the future" and would be "unsubstainable"

Earlier on from this morning

On paying off the bank debt with future season ticket money Murray says "we could have done that ourselves"

So which is it SDM???

Tbf, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

However....SDM is still being set up here I feel.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

Court now being shown Share Purchase Agreement between Murray International, Wavetower ltd and Liberty Capital


Murray says he wasn't present when Share Purchase Agreement signed :confused: Shurely Shome Mishtake

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170426/0f59549c7c0822454955436097885c6d.jpg

You think? [emoji23]



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Springbank]

this is a true popcorn day, for this case.

i feel we ought to give some credit to Twitter's @jamesdoleman as well for providing a lot of source material.

looking forward to seeing where this line of questioning to SDM goes...

[JeMeSouviens]

Fair play to old mutton chops Findlay, he's made a nonsense of the masonic conspiracy theories so far. Let's see what he makes of his old boss ...

[Ozyhibby]

Fair play to old mutton chops Findlay, he's made a nonsense of the masonic conspiracy theories so far. Let's see what he makes of his old boss ...

Murray has never been his boss.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

Fair play to old mutton chops Findlay, he's made a nonsense of the masonic conspiracy theories so far. Let's see what he makes of his old boss ...

It's interesting because I'm sure there will have been a lot of powerful "Rangers men" fall out with each other over the years.

I have no idea who has it in for who.

I'm not sure respect for the law of the land lies at the top of anyone's list of priorities, let alone masonic loyalties.

It is going to be joyful watching a bunch of total b******s tear each other to pieces though.

[JeMeSouviens]

Murray has never been his boss.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

His old chairman then, you know what I meant.

[PatHead]

Does that mean they owe it to themselves. That sounds like a plan
Murray says if he knew the source of Whyte's funds was Ticketus "categorically we would not have done the deal"

Murray says the deal with Ticketus was "selling the future" and would be "unsubstainable"

Earlier on from this morning

On paying off the bank debt with future season ticket money Murray says "we could have done that ourselves"

So which is it SDM???





Murray says season tickets are "an asset to the club" and only the board could have approved transacting with season tickets

[Moulin Yarns]

Findlay asks Murray about his relationship with Whyte"I had no relationship with him" Murray replies

Even though Whyte Screwed him :wink:

Appears as though they were penpals

Witness now being shown a copy of text messages Findlay suggests are those between him and Whyte. 10 pages

[Hibernia&Alba]

Findlay asks Murray about his relationship with Whyte"I had no relationship with him" Murray replies

Even though Whyte Screwed him :wink:

Appears as though they were penpals

Witness now being shown a copy of text messages Findlay suggests are those between him and Whyte. 10 pages

Whyte: "I'll gie ye wan poon fir the Rainjurs"

Murray: "Ye drive a hard bargain. I wis hopin fir a fiver at least. Sold".

[Moulin Yarns]

11 Oct 2011 message from Whyte "Hi David I'm not going to make it up to Scotland this week"They then arrange a phone call


4 Nov 2011 Murray to Whyte "Tax tribunal starts soon, give me a call" Murray says can't recall if there was a phone call.

13 Nov Murray to Whyte "let's ensure we remain tight on HMRC situation, don't want any online/media speculation"



Aye, no relationship right enough

[Moulin Yarns]

SDM not making it easy..


Murray says "I said today I only met him 4 times, I didn't mention texts"Findlay "That's why I'm asking you"

Findlay "The rules of this place are I ask questions and if there is no objection you answer them."


edit
Murray "sorry to change the subject"Findlay "In these courts we call changing the subject not answering the question"

OUCH!

[Moulin Yarns]

Something for CWG . Big Tax Case, payable 2020?? Paid by who? TRIFC?

Findlay asks about big tax case, Murray agrees could be a £50m liability
"So who was going to pay that?" Findlay asks
Murray says they had strong legal advice they would win big tax case. Says He understands bill will be paid by recipients, payable 2020

Findlay asks if a £40m tax bill would have been a disaster for the club
"Not necessarily" he replies

Murray asked if he had ever discussed in the club going into administration "not in any detail" the witness replies

Findlay asks Murray about evidence he had settled the small tax case. Murray says "we had decided to pay it" but later Whyte took it on

Murray says "it is more than likely" he described Whyte's bid as "the only show in town"

[Moulin Yarns]

Murray notes that Paul Murray's proposal would not have taken responsibility for big tax case


OK, so that suggests he takeover b Craig Whyte included a liability to settle the BTC.

WOW

[Is It On....]

Murray says if Whyte did not have the money at the time of the transaction he would have cancelled the deal

Murray "there was some tidying up to be done" but says Rangers could have carried on.

What alot of utter nonsense.

[CropleyWasGod]

Something for CWG . Big Tax Case, payable 2020?? Paid by who? TRIFC?

Findlay asks about big tax case, Murray agrees could be a £50m liability
"So who was going to pay that?" Findlay asks
Murray says they had strong legal advice they would win big tax case. Says He understands bill will be paid by recipients, payable 2020

Findlay asks if a £40m tax bill would have been a disaster for the club
"Not necessarily" he replies

Murray asked if he had ever discussed in the club going into administration "not in any detail" the witness replies

Findlay asks Murray about evidence he had settled the small tax case. Murray says "we had decided to pay it" but later Whyte took it on

Murray says "it is more than likely" he described Whyte's bid as "the only show in town"
BTC hasn't been paid by anyone yet, if that's what you mean.

If it's going to be paid, it will be (in part ) by Oldco

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

I can hear the squirming from here

Murray agrees he would have read the Share Purchase Agreement but didn't sign it

Photo of him signing it was from a week later.

Either ye signed or ye didna!! Ya Plum!!!



Murray agrees original agreement would have made him "Lifetime President of the Club"Says "this didn't materialise for health reasons"

Murray "Mr Prentice read that this morning"Findlay "We call him the Advocate Depute in this court"



This sounds interesting

Findlay asks if Murray will comment on issues that may arise later in the case

[Moulin Yarns]

Murray was desperate.




Murray shown an email from him to David Horn from 4 May 2011 (2 days before the takeover)

we need to get this over the line...or the chance of stability is gone" there is no realistic alternative..nothing is perfect"

"Any hope of future funding is lost....our season ticket and future playing squad details will not make good reading"

[Moulin Yarns]

Referee gets involved, Findlay gets a ticking off.



Lady Stacey intervenes to say she is still unhappy about the production of documents.

Lady Stacey says agreement at pre-trial was documents be available on computer.Findlay says "I don't do electronics"

Last Stacey unhappy the court "Macer" is having to operate the overhead projector(The Macer is the person who carries in the Mace)*


Overhead Projector WTF?!! So 1970's

* who knew?? Is that in case someone attacks the judge

[Moulin Yarns]

Findlay says no prospect of finishing questioning this afternoon, Lady Stacey sends jury home, back at 10 am tomorrow


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcREMc2Hzc0xcOuBNTqrWb4CsekNB4IKi a_ARqTgBP9lnze3636SkA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FHEeG_uq5Y)

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170426/68fbe88e3ebcf5dcf584248b3cb4622f.png
I've read somewhere before that HMRC have the power to go after the recipients if they win. Certainly hope so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[greenlex]

I knew it would be good but this is exceeding expectations.

[Ozyhibby]

I knew it would be good but this is exceeding expectations.

And still 11 weeks to go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Deansy]

Absolutely, if they open investigation again the the Sevconians are going to engage in whataboutery. That's what we should hope for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Had an argument some time ago with a Muppet over the similarities between the Hun and them.

Me - "Once the dust has settled and the Hun are found guilty and all their titles are stripped, they (along with the massed-ranks of the SMSM) will leave no stone un-turned whatsoever in naming all and any other club who they think/know are just as guilty as them - and as you well know, there's only one other blatant cheating-bar-steward of a club in Scotland/SPL so if I were you I'd start saying your farewells to your beloved 5-1 now !"

Muppet - "Never happen - the circumstances between Hearts and Rangers were completely different !"

Me - "Oh well - although I'm well-chuffed you DON'T deny the fact that your club DID cheat as well, so kudos for that, pal - you're the first honest Jambo I've met"

Muppet (spluttering) - "Naw - ah didnae say that, whit ah meant wiz ...................."


Hibees 1 Charity-Thieves FC 0

[southern hibby]

Referee gets involved, Findlay gets a ticking off.



Lady Stacey intervenes to say she is still unhappy about the production of documents.

Lady Stacey says agreement at pre-trial was documents be available on computer.Findlay says "I don't do electronics"

Last Stacey unhappy the court "Macer" is having to operate the overhead projector(The Macer is the person who carries in the Mace)*


Overhead Projector WTF?!! So 1970's

* who knew?? Is that in case someone attacks the judge

Wouldn't say 1970 more 1690

GGTTH

[Kato]

Had an argument some time ago with a Muppet over the similarities between the Hun and them.

Me - "Once the dust has settled and the Hun are found guilty and all their titles are stripped, they (along with the massed-ranks of the SMSM) will leave no stone un-turned whatsoever in naming all and any other club who they think/know are just as guilty as them - and as you well know, there's only one other blatant cheating-bar-steward of a club in Scotland/SPL so if I were you I'd start saying your farewells to your beloved 5-1 now !"

Muppet - "Never happen - the circumstances between Hearts and Rangers were completely different !"

Me - "Oh well - although I'm well-chuffed you DON'T deny the fact that your club DID cheat as well, so kudos for that, pal - you're the first honest Jambo I've met"

Muppet (spluttering) - "Naw - ah didnae say that, whit ah meant wiz ...................."


Hibees 1 Charity-Thieves FC 0


Hearts ran their own Tax Evasion scheme - "loaning" players, 19 in all, from Kaunas to Hearts and paying tax in Lithuania. If Rangers are stripped of their trophies so will Hearts.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://stv.tv/news/west-central/1386802-businessman-linked-to-rangers-bid-arrested-in-singapore/

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Kavinho]

https://stv.tv/news/west-central/1386802-businessman-linked-to-rangers-bid-arrested-in-singapore/

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Coincidental....?

[Jack Hackett]

https://stv.tv/news/west-central/1386802-businessman-linked-to-rangers-bid-arrested-in-singapore/

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Goes to show that that particular pile of sh*** attracted a lot of flies

[Moulin Yarns]

Jury come into court. Judge says one juror is ill today so case cannot proceed
Proceedings adjourned until tomorrow

Oh well, suppose I'll have to work instead :greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

Jury come into court. Judge says one juror is ill today so case cannot proceed
Proceedings adjourned until tomorrow

Oh well, suppose I'll have to work instead :greengrin

Is said juror Mr William McWilliams from Larkhall? :whistle:

[GreenLake]

https://stv.tv/news/west-central/1386802-businessman-linked-to-rangers-bid-arrested-in-singapore/

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Maybe he tried to start a far east version of Rangers. "Chee Ting Bah Stars"

[Jack Hackett]

Jury come into court. Judge says one juror is ill today so case cannot proceed
Proceedings adjourned until tomorrow

Oh well, suppose I'll have to work instead :greengrin


Booooo!... on all counts :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

WE're back up and running


Findlay: "In 2009 you entrusted theclub to Mr Johnson and other members of the board" adds "RangersFootball Club was close to your heart"

Findlay "when you handed over the clubyou had a plan" Murray "it was a static plan"

Findlay asks how much investment was putinto Rangers after 2009, "Would none be the answer"? Murray "Wasvery little"

Findlay condition of sale was that the bankdebt be eliminated "It was an integral part" Adds small tax case andmoney for stadium also

Murray says his advisors "spoke to meabout the shape of the deal"

Witness shown "Share PurchaseAgreement" between Murray and Whyte, says purchaser will"attempt" to invest £20m Finday "not a commitment"

Murray says he took this as an obligation







Findlay asks if RFC board were "actingwith fiscal prudence" Murray "I assume so" Defence QC showsdocument on screen



Document is an email from Alistair JohnsonDiscussing "how to go forward with the bank" after interim results



Says divisions in the board have been"Exacerbated”



Email: Johnson talks about the necessity ofa "liquidity event" Murray "Alistair was concerned with futurerelationship with the bank"



Email: "unnoficial parties at thebehest of Craig Whyte have been contacting employees for information"



Email continues "Serious issues aboutthe maintenance and upkeep of Ibrox stadium" Murray "That's hisopinion"



Witness shown copy of a submission he gaveduring a legal case states: "I was not aware Martin Bain's notice periodwas 39 months"



Findlay: "The chairman extended theCEO's notice period to 39 months and didn't even tell you"?



Murray "The facts you have given thismorning don't make good reading (you could say!!)



Findlay "You were let down by peoplewho didn't have a clue"? Murray: The facts are there for others tojudge"



Findlay asks Murray about Dave King,witness confirms he was on the board

[Moulin Yarns]

1. Murray shownnote from Dave King to the takeover panel dated April 2011:
Kingnote to takeover panel is about Whyte's bid says King is "concerned aboutthe source of funds, mentions possible police investigation" (Dave Murray knew!!)
King note "I was approached 10 yearsago to make investment in the club" "After personal discussion withMr Murray" agreed to £5m

Later raised investment to £20m,"asked for assurances 1) Be on the board 2) Not dispose of shareholdingwithout consultation.

Murray says King had "everyopportunity" to buy the club before Whyte came along. Meeting organised inLondon "but he didn't do it"

Murray says King himself removed hisshareholding from Murray sport "signed a piece of paper" to transferto himself

King note questions "The financialstability of the business" notes Murray group in "financialdifficulty" rfc "caught up in damage control"

[Moulin Yarns]

King note to takeover panel complainsMurray has caused "value destruction" mentions meeting Murray Witnessdoesn't recall conversation


Looks like we are getting to the nittygritty----

King note expresses concern "a zerovalue exit would create value for Murray" Murray "that's just nottrue, there is no proof of that"

King note says Murray was"manipulating the bank debt" "Absolute rubbish" the witnessreplies."No truth in that at all"

King note says Murray "isolatedme" Murray says King was in next door office "he chose to walk outthe door without meeting me"

King says the Whyte takeover had "Notransparency to the Rangers board" Murray replies he wasn't on the boardat the time

Murray "Everything was open and honestas we'll find out as we go through this process"

Findlay asks Murray if King note was just"blatant lies" "It's all in the paperwork" witness replies

Letter 25 Oct 2011 Letter from Dave King toCraig Whyte. Formal letter setting out claim for damages against RangersFootball Club ltd

Letter notes investment of £20m by "atrust I am beneficiary of"

King letter of claim says company"managed in a manner that was against the interests of the company..information kept from me"

King claim was for £20m "the value ofhis investment"

[JimBHibees]

Martin Bain's notice period was extended to 39 months. Simply wow.

You just know Minty is going to come out of this without anything sticking on him.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Apologies for going back a few years and hundreds of pages on this thread :greengrin, but, can I just ask this: when Rangers were liquidated, were they expelled from the league or did they resign​ their membership? Cheers.

[CropleyWasGod]

Apologies for going back a few years and hundreds of pages on this thread :greengrin, but, can I just ask this: when Rangers were liquidated, were they expelled from the league or did they resign​ their membership? Cheers.

The company that owned the club hasn't yet been liquidated. However, when it went into liquidation, its membership (ie share) of the SPL was, first of all, sold on to the new company. This shouldn't have happened, as it should have been returned to the SPL itself. The share was then returned to the SPL, and Dundee acquired it.

To answer your question, the membership of the SPL just "ceased to be". .. which probably disny help. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Murray says of King "I cannot rememberand major issues he had during my chairmanship" adds not working for bankbut to "win trophies

Findlay asksabout King's complaint over tax scheme "We put in the accounts...Mr Kingcould have read the accounts"

In letter King says tax scheme allowedRangers to live on a"false economic basis for a long period of time"Says would have opposed

Murray notes Dave King had been on theboard since 2002, "EBT" tax scheme since 2000 not challenged

King: misled about retail deal, saystransaction "significantly weakened the club" Findlay "was thata lie"? Murray "It's not true


Murray says during transfers out Rangerswere "taking the money early" to help the club, which led to a"discount for funds at present"

Murray "I can't think of manybusiness​ plans that go 100%"

Findlay "Mr King was on the board thattook the club to a shambles of a playing squad and all the rest...now saying'not me guv'?"

Court rises for morning break (thankgoodness, goes for a pee and coffee)

[JeMeSouviens]

Apologies for going back a few years and hundreds of pages on this thread :greengrin, but, can I just ask this: when Rangers were liquidated, were they expelled from the league or did they resign​ their membership? Cheers.

Effectively the latter. When their CVA failed, Rangers gave notice to the SPL that they were ceasing to operate. Sevco Scotland applied to the SPL to have Rangers' SPL share transferred to them but the other members voted against allowing it.

https://stv.tv/sport/football/clubs/rangers/106647-spl-confirm-newco-have-applied-to-transfer-rangers-member-share/
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/18703183

Sevco Scotland then applied to the Scottish Football League and were admitted to the 3rd division after their members voted against a proposal to parachute the new club in at Div 1. Subsequently they applied to and were given a new temporary membership of the SFA, before renaming themselves "Rangers" and having the old Rangers membership of the SFA transferred to them under the conditions of the infamous 5-way agreement (basically they agreed to honour the old club's debts to other football bodies/clubs and to inherit any punishments meted out to the old Rangers).

[Hibernia&Alba]

The company that owned the club hasn't yet been liquidated. However, when it went into liquidation, its membership (ie share) of the SPL was, first of all, sold on to the new company. This shouldn't have happened, as it should have been returned to the SPL itself. The share was then returned to the SPL, and Dundee acquired it.

To answer your question, the membership of the SPL just "ceased to be". .. which probably disny help. :greengrin


Effectively the latter. When their CVA failed, Rangers gave notice to the SPL that they were ceasing to operate. Sevco Scotland applied to the SPL to have Rangers' SPL share transferred to them but the other members voted against allowing it.

https://stv.tv/sport/football/clubs/rangers/106647-spl-confirm-newco-have-applied-to-transfer-rangers-member-share/
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/18703183

Sevco Scotland then applied to the Scottish Football League and were admitted to the 3rd division after their members voted against a proposal to parachute the new club in at Div 1. Subsequently they applied to and were given a new temporary membership of the SFA, before renaming themselves "Rangers" and having the old Rangers membership of the SFA transferred to them under the conditions of the infamous 5-way agreement (basically they agreed to honour the old club's debts to other football bodies/clubs and to inherit any punishments meted out to the old Rangers).

Cheers guys. That's a help :aok:

So much has happened, it's hard to see the wood for the trees.

[CropleyWasGod]

Cheers guys. That's a help :aok:

So much has happened, it's hard to see the wood for the trees.

What ****ing trees?

[CropleyWasGod]

Murray says of King "I cannot rememberand major issues he had during my chairmanship" adds not working for bankbut to "win trophies

Findlay asksabout King's complaint over tax scheme "We put in the accounts...Mr Kingcould have read the accounts"

In letter King says tax scheme allowedRangers to live on a"false economic basis for a long period of time"Says would have opposed

Murray notes Dave King had been on theboard since 2002, "EBT" tax scheme since 2000 not challenged

King: misled about retail deal, saystransaction "significantly weakened the club" Findlay "was thata lie"? Murray "It's not true


Murray says during transfers out Rangerswere "taking the money early" to help the club, which led to a"discount for funds at present"

Murray "I can't think of manybusiness​ plans that go 100%"

Findlay "Mr King was on the board thattook the club to a shambles of a playing squad and all the rest...now saying'not me guv'?"

Court rises for morning break (thankgoodness, goes for a pee and coffee)



Cheers for the updates.

I can't help thinking..... WTF has this to do with the case against CW? Thus far, it sounds like blood-letting between SDM, CW, DK and DF.... which is all lovely, of course.

[Ozyhibby]

Cheers for the updates.

I can't help thinking..... WTF has this to do with the case against CW? Thus far, it sounds like blood-letting between SDM, CW, DK and DF.... which is all lovely, of course.

Craig Whyte will be trying to prove that Rangers were in a far worse state than he had been led to believe by Murray when he bought them and that's why he had to borrow from ticketus and stop paying HMRC.
I think. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Cheers for the updates.

I can't help thinking..... WTF has this to do with the case against CW? Thus far, it sounds like blood-letting between SDM, CW, DK and DF.... which is all lovely, of course.

I was wondering as well, but DK is the only one still 'involved' in the institution, which might be relevant.

[CropleyWasGod]

Craig Whyte will be trying to prove that Rangers were in a far wait se state than he had been led to believe by Murray when he bought them and that's why he had to borrow from ticketus and stop paying HMRC.
I think. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe.

But the fact remains he defrauded the club. The Crown have an open goal here, and DF seems to be doing his best to obscure that by making it into a soap opera.

[Moulin Yarns]

Craig Whyte will be trying to prove that Rangers were in a far worse state than he had been led to believe by Murray when he bought them and that's why he had to borrow from ticketus and stop paying HMRC.
I think. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good thinking Oz

[Moulin Yarns]

Witness shown new document: email 18 April2011 from Alistair Johnson to the board, mentions "mutual understandingand respect" with Whyte

Email says D Murray "Threatened PaulMurray he was going to contact press association over board blockingtakeover."

Murray says he was careful talking to themedia

Murray denies "threatening email fromone of his staff to Johnson" bankers just lay out facts he notes

Findlay notes Rangers were in more debtthan bank allowed Murray: "that would seem to be the case"

Findlay says Paul Murray takeover bid hadno chance "There was no proof of funds" witness replies Findlay"mysterious underwriter"

1. Witness saysPaul Murray bid "was never taken seriously"
Findlay moves on to contact between Murrayand Whyte after takeover

Murray says he made a mistake when hetestified that he found out about Ticketus deal in December 2012, was Dec2011/Jan 2012

17 Nov 2011 Murray letter to Whyte. Witnesssays "That's prior to me knowing about Ticketus"

SMS messages between Murray and Whyte 26November 2011, Whyte to Murray arranging lunch in Monaco. Was to discuss letterwitness says

Murray letter to Whyte notes he had said hewould "consider administration, but only as a last resort"

Murray says he received proof of fundsletter from Whyte's solicitors, but it was "unsigned"

Murray letter asks Whyte to release £2.8mfor tax case and £5m for playing squad

Findlay notes letter says administration"was not a route you [Whyte] would want to pursue"

Murray asked about pre-trial dispositionabout dinner with Walter Smith in Edinburgh. Murray can't recall if theydiscussed administration

Findlay "you have no memory ofdiscussion the administration of Rangers with anyone prior to thetakeover"? "Yes"

Findlay "There was a discussion on theboard about pre-pack administration"? Murray "I remember thatyes"

Findlay to Murray "I have a copy ofeverything" puts to him he told Crown "I did consider pre-packadministration" "I dismissed it"

Murray "I'm not playing tricks"Judge "I'm not playing tricks either but did you consider it"? Murrayagrees he has given it thought *had*

Findlay asks Murray if at any point in timedid anyone tell him Whyte was looking at outside finance "I don't recallthat"

Findlay shows Murray an email 7 April 2011to him , states "DG firm writing CW to advise HMRC will considerpayability" DG, David Grier

Email "DG let slip that this opinionwas required for CW other investors" Findlay "clear indication Whytehad other investors"

Findlay "you knew" Murray "Idon't recall the details"

Witness shown notes by a David Horn from3/11/2010 States: "Octopus meeting discussing CW £15m possiblefacility" "CW may be looking for a partner"

Findlay notes Octopus was Ticketus"one of your closest advisors was aware Whyte was looking at finance"Murray says not aware of that

Murray adds "I can't comment I haven'tseen the note" says Horn never told him

More notes from Horn re "projectCharlotte" "HMRC aware not going to get any money, wantprecedent"

[Keith_M]

Murray and Smith have both had an amazingly similar loss of memory about any (uncomfortable) details as regards their beloved Rangers.


"I don't recall"

"I don't remember"


They don't want to tell the truth but they also don't want to perjure themselves in court.

[Ozyhibby]

Murray and Smith have both had an amazingly similar loss of memory about any (uncomfortable) details as regards their beloved Rangers.


"I don't recall"

"I don't remember"


They don't want to tell the truth but they also don't want to perjure themselves in court.

The more they say it the better it gets for Craig Whyte.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AndyM_1875]

Apologies for going back a few years and hundreds of pages on this thread :greengrin, but, can I just ask this: when Rangers were liquidated, were they expelled from the league or did they resign​ their membership? Cheers.

I recall the words of the great moustache himself our very own Rod when I asked him a similar question.
"Rangers were placed beyond football and it was all their own fault".

Rod in March 2012 http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/rod-petrie-accuses-rangers-of-damaging-spl-integrity-1-2156674

and again http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/hibernian/rod-petrie-insists-spl-must-maintain-integrity-despite-financial-cost-1-2294135

[Seveno]

The letter from Whyte's Solicitors confirming that he had funds was unsigned!

What fun, wish I was there.

[Keith_M]

The letter from Whyte's Solicitors confirming that he had funds was unsigned!

What fun, wish I was there.


I would love to hear the justification for accepting such 'proof'.



Any mention of him having 'wealth off the radar' yet?

:greengrin

[lord bunberry]

The letter from Whyte's Solicitors confirming that he had funds was unsigned!

What fun, wish I was there.
I wonder if Whyte's solicitor is a Nigerian prince.

[Kato]

Pretty good so far. Wonder Findlay has any tastier docs.

[Moulin Yarns]

Murray repeats he has never seen the noteFindlay notes "one of your closest advisors is contemplatingadministration "Did nobody tell you

Murray: I wasn't aware of the note..is aninternal note he wrote for himself..you can ask him" Findlay "Iappreciate loyalty Sir David"

Murray shown letter to takeover panel frontMurray's lawyers​, meeting between David Murray and Craig Whyte Oct 2010

Murray says meeting was "at my housein the South of France"

Letter confirms to takeover panel no-onewas "working in concert" was an informal meeting to buildrapport"

Lunch break

[Moulin Yarns]

Findlay Asks Murray about statement"categorically we would not have done deal" if knew about Ticketus

In pre-trial deposition Murray said "Icannot comment what my reaction would have been as is hypotheticalquestion"

Murray asks about Jack Irvine. Murray saysworked on newspaper together, one of his staff, Ramsey Smith, worked on PR forRangers'

Murray shown email from Jack Irvine to GaryWithey, Whyte's lawyer, 25 May 2011 "For your eyes only "

Email appears to be a business pitch toCraig Whyte Findlay says

"Business side of Glasgow footballclubs is a snake pit"

My 15 year association with Craig has beenon an on and off relationship"

Offers to be personal adviser to Whyte

Then lists various work he had done

"I have learned one thing fromfootball, normal rules of business dies not apply"

Says Murray briefed the press daily,briefed behind managers back

Murray says he had supported managers Whatprice loyality over money Findlay asks?

Findlay says he is finishing off. Asks ifMurray group if he received any benefit from sale of Rangers? "No director immediate benefit"

[Moulin Yarns]

11 Jan 2011letter to Lloyd's bank from Murray "In terms of restructuring, we havemade progress" Requests "release" of metals business
Lloyd's reply: We do not regard metalsbusiness as work in progress re sale of RFC in April" Findlay asked iflinked?

1. Murray says hisaim was to protect 3000 jobs, rejects any suggestion him buying back metalbusiness was linked to Rangers sale
Findlayasks if any staff got bonus for sale of Rangers, Murray says two people did,Horn and Martin Bain.
Mike McGill email to Murray, says AlistairJohnson did not want board minutes to be given to prospective purchaser as"too sensitive"

Adds might have to "clear out theboard" Murray describes this as "shadow boxing"

Murray "A board of directors can belike a family, there can be splits and disagreements"

5 April 11 email from McGill "I don't think thepurchaser has the resources...we have no idea if they have the funds to run theclub"

[Is It On....]

Maybe.

But the fact remains he defrauded the club. The Crown have an open goal here, and DF seems to be doing his best to obscure that by making it into a soap opera.

What is the case for Craig Whyte defrauding the club?

[Keith_M]

As a previous poster has already said, the revelations, and the embarrassment of Murray et-al, is great fun... but I still don't see how any of it helps Whyte's case.

[Moulin Yarns]

Email continues "Don't think the dealis perfect.. uncertain what alternative exists..bank attitude hardening afterpress coverage"

Findlay suggests "even if the Whytemodel was wrong, it was a plan" Murray "it wasn't our plan"Findlay "But it was a plan"

Findlay "You left the club to a groupof men who sat around waiting for the Sultan of Brunia to decide to buy aScottish football club"

Findlay "loyalty is admirable, butwhat had these men done to your football club, our football club" Endscross-examination

Murray tells Advocate Depute that he wouldnot have sold the club of he knew about Ticketus


Lady Stacey rules too late for a newwitness today. Jury sent home until Tuesday morning, court adjourns.


Over to the experts to untangle the web. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

What is the case for Craig Whyte defrauding the club?

That he used the club's money to pay off the bank, when the deal was to use his own. In round terms, the club got way less than half of what they were expecting.

Those facts are not in doubt, IMO. There has already been a civil case (Ticketus v Whyte) to support that. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/scottish/former-rangers-owner-craig-whyte-loses-177m-court-case-with-ticketus-8567084.html

However, whether the Crown are able to convince a jury (who, of course, should have no prior knowledge of Rangers, football or business issues) of that is another matter. Thus far, they haven't been doing that for me. Findlay is playing a blinder in dancing around the politics of it all, which will confuse the jury.

It's a long trial, though, and there will be plenty prosecution witnesses yet who should play their part. The Ticketus guys, the bank, Gary Withey and the Duff & Phelps guys.... they should be fun :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

As a previous poster has already said, the revelations, and the embarrassment of Murray et-al, is great fun... but I still don't see how any of it helps Whyte's case.

I think it boils down to:

SDM, the Old Huns etc claim they had a solid club and were carefully planning succession to secure the legacy of all things Hunnish but were hoodwinked by that nasty man Craig who fraudulently claimed off the radar wealth but turned out to be potless.

vs

Whyte will claim that SDM and the Old Huns were right up **** creek sans paddle and knew fine well he didn't have 2 beans to rub together but were so desperate they turned a blind eye and passed the parcel sharpish.

[ancient hibee]

Whyte's evidence will be that Murray knew all along but was desperate to get shot of Rangers so that he could rescue a banking relationship with Lloyds for his main business which was also in soapy.He may also try the line that he and Murray had discussed Murray still being involved if the club went into admin.which would get rid of King and his debt and Murray coming to the rescue.

[Brunswickbill]

Thanks Golden Fleece. Keep up the good work.

[Keith_M]

I think it boils down to:

SDM, the Old Huns etc claim they had a solid club and were carefully planning succession to secure the legacy of all things Hunnish but were hoodwinked by that nasty man Craig who fraudulently claimed off the radar wealth but turned out to be potless.

vs

Whyte will claim that SDM and the Old Huns were right up **** creek sans paddle and knew fine well he didn't have 2 beans to rub together but were so desperate they turned a blind eye and passed the parcel sharpish.



Cheers.


Only thing is, I thought the trial was about whether or not Whyte defrauded Ticketus. Although I have to agree to being a bit confused by the whole thing by now :-)

[Jack Hackett]

Thanks Golden Fleece. Keep up the good work.

:agree:

Seconded

[jabis]

:agree:

Seconded

Thirded,cheers:aok:

[jacomo]

I think it boils down to:

SDM, the Old Huns etc claim they had a solid club and were carefully planning succession to secure the legacy of all things Hunnish but were hoodwinked by that nasty man Craig who fraudulently claimed off the radar wealth but turned out to be potless.

vs

Whyte will claim that SDM and the Old Huns were right up **** creek sans paddle and knew fine well he didn't have 2 beans to rub together but were so desperate they turned a blind eye and passed the parcel sharpish.


Nice summary!

[snooky]

I think it boils down to:

SDM, the Old Huns etc claim they had a solid club and were carefully planning succession to secure the legacy of all things Hunnish but were hoodwinked by that nasty man Craig who fraudulently claimed off the radar wealth but turned out to be potless.

vs

Whyte will claim that SDM and the Old Huns were right up **** creek sans paddle and knew fine well he didn't have 2 beans to rub together but were so desperate they turned a blind eye and passed the parcel sharpish.

I'll go with option 2

[Seveno]

Findlay's cross examination of Murray suggests that he might be suggesting that Whyte was defrauded by Rangers !

[CropleyWasGod]

Findlay's cross examination of Murray suggests that he might be suggesting that Whyte was defrauded by Rangers !
Yup.

He's blowing blue smoke all over the place.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Kato]

Findlay's cross examination of Murray suggests that he might be suggesting that Whyte was defrauded by Rangers !

Vipers nest that place, built on bile.

[CathroMustStay]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/topic/306844-utter-****/?page=1

"Dinnae dare bring up racism, whit are ye a taig bead rattler, we arra peepo!"

Vile, cretinous, bigoted sub-human scuum.

[660]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/topic/306844-utter-****/?page=1

"Dinnae dare bring up racism, whit are ye a taig bead rattler, we arra peepo!"

Vile, cretinous, bigoted sub-human scuum.


Apparently according to the other thread about the boy who ran on the pitch, it's our fault for invading the pitch after the cup final last year which encouraged people it was ok and it was the Celtic players fault for....yep "goading" them. Delicious Hun tears.

[cookin_on_gaz]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/topic/306844-utter-****/?page=1

"Dinnae dare bring up racism, whit are ye a taig bead rattler, we arra peepo!"

Vile, cretinous, bigoted sub-human scuum.
The entire site is nothing but poison and I am pretty sure at least half the posters could be charged with the hateful vile they come out with.

Sent from my VF-1397 using Tapatalk

[cookin_on_gaz]

The entire site is nothing but poison and I am pretty sure at least half the posters could be charged with the hateful vile they come out with.

Sent from my VF-1397 using Tapatalk
But I guess to be fair a large number of people have liked the post that says racism is out of order.

Sent from my VF-1397 using Tapatalk

[CathroMustStay]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/topic/306873-tiffany-the-offensive-cover-song/

The responses to this thread, and the song in question, are those from sewer rats.

Actually no, that's very offensive to sewer rats.

[Ozyhibby]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/topic/306873-tiffany-the-offensive-cover-song/

The responses to this thread, and the song in question, are those from sewer rats.

Actually no, that's very offensive to sewer rats.

There is a good chance that Saturday will not be the worst day in 2017 for Sevco fans. And it's no less than they deserve. [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Since90+2]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/topic/306873-tiffany-the-offensive-cover-song/

The responses to this thread, and the song in question, are those from sewer rats.

Actually no, that's very offensive to sewer rats.

Even by Sevco standards that thread is unbelievable. I've genuinely never read such open hatred of a religious group on the internet before.

[brog]

Even by Sevco standards that thread is unbelievable. I've genuinely never read such open hatred of a religious group on the internet before.

They're so clever, they actually ask for the link to be put up! To think, these people have a vote!

[Hibernia&Alba]

Even by Sevco standards that thread is unbelievable. I've genuinely never read such open hatred of a religious group on the internet before.

I kind of regret clicking on the link; I've never seen anything like it. It's hard to believe actually.

[CropleyWasGod]

I had a "discussion" recently with a friend about the club scene in Trainspotting2.

Her view was "well, it was funny, but hardly true to life, is it?"

Can't wait to show her this.....

[Is It On....]

Even by Sevco standards that thread is unbelievable. I've genuinely never read such open hatred of a religious group on the internet before.

They are probably proud of the scene in T2.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170430/b07fff4f54bebd73956d71257b6bf595.gif
Pic of the fan having a dash at Scott brown on sat. Those new volunteer stewards they have at Ibrox seem a bit scarce?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Celtc unveil their new shirt sponsors


https://btmail.bt.com/cp/applink/mail/Downloader?dhid=attachmentDownloader&messageId=32375&accountName=DefaultMailAccount&folderPath=INBOX&contentDisposition=inline&attachmentIndex=0&contentId=image002.jpg%4001D2C02B.83D9EE30&contentSeed=d1353&pct=1886d&d=btinternet.com&u=davidw.kinnaird#

[Captain Trips]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170430/b07fff4f54bebd73956d71257b6bf595.gif
Pic of the fan having a dash at Scott brown on sat. Those new volunteer stewards they have at Ibrox seem a bit scarce?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just protecting the The Rangers players is all.

[Is It On....]

Some on The Den think that Murray is coming back to save the day 😂. Now worth £150m again apparently...after ditching >£200m of debt when Murray International went bust.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/topic/306836-the-bear-that-got-on-the-park/?page=8

The legendary words of 'goaded' and 'great restraint' appear. And I'm pretty sure someone was wanting Griffiths booked for pushing the fan?!?

[Heisenberg]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/topic/306836-the-bear-that-got-on-the-park/?page=8

The legendary words of 'goaded' and 'great restraint' appear. And I'm pretty sure someone was wanting Griffiths booked for pushing the fan?!?

What a hilarious read that is. They seriously think because someone has celebrated in front of them on the pitch it's ok to go and try to attack them. Extremely sore losers. I liked the part where some of them have the audacity to call the guy out for being a total weapon but the rest shout them down because "he was the only bear on the pitch to show any fight". Utter ****.

[Hibby70]

21st May has truly broken them.

[connerg]

21st May has truly broken them.

and Hearts. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

I can't do the full updates today, but next witness is
Ian Shanks says that in 2009 he was a"relationship director" in Lloyd's "business support unit."Dealt with firms with financial issues


Witness says in 2009 Rangers had a term loan of £18m an overdraft of £15m, asset finance facility of £4m and an "interest rate hedge"

Shanks says Lloyd's group were "keen to reduce our exposure to the Murray group, which included Rangers"

[ancient hibee]

Seems BofS banked with Murray rather than the other way round.

[Moulin Yarns]

Shanks confirms Rangers had previously used Ticketus for short term working capital

[Moulin Yarns]

Donald Findlay now cross examining 'Shanks the banks'



Shanks agrees Murray group owed "hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds" to the bank

[Moulin Yarns]

Beginning to get interesting.

Donald Findlay cross examining


Findlay asks how the bank viewed decline ofRangers playing squad due to lower wages. Shanks says is about "Workingwithin your means"

Findlay "we have all sorts ofdocuments that people thought would never see the light of day" "Wewere keen board grant approval"

Shanks "We were keen the independentboard would grant approval or we would look at their banking facilities"Email

"We would could call in the debt ifJohnson does not agree..could lead to to him being disqualified as adirector" Shanks doesn't recognise

LUNCH!!

[Moulin Yarns]

Email "Martin Bain has sent letter toboard asking for £1m to go" adds "we believe contract is invalid asnever ratified by board"

Email continues on Martin Bain; "I'msure the Rangers fans would be interested in what he'd been up to when club infinancial difficulties "

Email continues "Been in contact witha few selected journalists yesterday.. attention turned away from BMGboard"

Findlay "The bank was going to themedia to protect its image"? Shanks "We didn't trust the Rangersboard"

Findlay "This was the mess Mr Whytewas going into

Email "If Craig does not put in thecash he will be hounded by the fans, not Murray" Findlay "what doesthat have to do with the bank?"

Findlay "All the wotsit would fall onhis [Whyte's] head not the banks. Murray knew there were no guarantees"Shanks "Correct"

Shanks agrees Murray knew there was noguarantee on spending. Findlay "No-one cared because it was just going tofall on him."

Findlay: "The image conscious Lloyd'sbank" Shankd" "All about managing our exposure to the club"Findlay "It always comes down to that"

Findlay "None of you gave a thought tothe institution that was Rangers Football Club, nobody cared."

Findlay "Lloyds bank were onlyinterested in two things, their money and their image" Shanks "Wewere interested in getting our debt repaid"

[Hibrandenburg]

Thanks GF.

[Keith_M]

Findlay sounds a bit too obsessed with his beloved Rangers 'institution'.


I get the feeling he's engaged more in a personal crusade than just defending his client.

[Just Alf]

Starting to think that also... Disnae make it anyess enjoyable tho!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[HoboHarry]

Findlay sounds a bit too obsessed with his beloved Rangers 'institution'.


I get the feeling he's engaged more in a personal crusade than just defending his client.
Personally I couldn't care less, as long as the end result is that the Ibrox goose is thoroughly cooked at the end.....

[Eyrie]

Findlay "Lloyds bank were onlyinterested in two things, their money and their image" Shanks "Wewere interested in getting our debt repaid"


As opposed to bending over backwards for Murray and chucking ever more cash at Huns RIP, which was the case when Findlay was a director.

[greenginger]

As opposed to bending over backwards for Murray and chucking ever more cash at Huns RIP, which was the case when Findlay was a director.

I think it was the Bank of Scotland that kissed the blue-noses ass and became insolvent in the process, forcing Gordon Brown to beg Lloyds to launch a rescue deal for the bank.

I doubt the Lloyds guys knew much about Rangers before they got the Murray Cluster-F*** dumped on their desk.

[Eyrie]

I think it was the Bank of Scotland that kissed the blue-noses ass and became insolvent in the process, forcing Gordon Brown to beg Lloyds to launch a rescue deal for the bank.

I doubt the Lloyds guys knew much about Rangers before they got the Murray Cluster-F*** dumped on their desk.

My apologies to Lloyds.

Sounds like they helped bring about Huns RIP's demise by informing Murray that bank loans need to be repaid, not increased, hence his panic to sell.

[Phil MaGlass]

So whats everyones thoughts of an outcome. Keep it simple,please ☺

[jacomo]

So whats everyones thoughts of an outcome. Keep it simple,please ☺


It's all Craig Whyte's fault. He duped a Knight of the Realm whose only crime was loving Rangers too much.

[Phil MaGlass]

It's all Craig Whyte's fault. He duped a Knight of the Realm whose only crime was loving Rangers too much.

Kiss and make up

[ancient hibee]

Not Proven.

[Hibby Kay-Yay]

So whats everyones thoughts of an outcome. Keep it simple,please ☺

Very public, very painful demise

[Phil MaGlass]

Very public, very painful demise

That would be nice, we can love in hope

[CropleyWasGod]

So whats everyones thoughts of an outcome. Keep it simple,please ☺
Too early to say. There's weeks of it yet.

The verdict will probably be secondary, though, compared to the sub-plots that are being played out.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Kato]

My apologies to Lloyds.

Sounds like they helped bring about Huns RIP's demise by informing Murray that bank loans need to be repaid, not increased, hence his panic to sell.

That was the catalyst for the house of cards starting to crumble. EBT's became public knowledge around that time too.

[ancient hibee]

BofS used to bankroll every club in the top division except Celtic and also a good few further down.They also sponsored the SPL for a while.Lloyds couldn't believe their eyes.

[Billy Whizz]

Too early to say. There's weeks of it yet.

The verdict will probably be secondary, though, compared to the sub-plots that are being played out.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Whatever the verdict, you can be sure there will be an appeal

[CropleyWasGod]

Whatever the verdict, you can be sure there will be an appeal
Can there be an appeal if he is found not guilty? I'm not sure.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Deansy]

So whats everyones thoughts of an outcome. Keep it simple,please ☺

Until the 'verdict's announced, it's a comforting thought that 95-97% of the Scottish football-media will probably be s******g themselves senseless in case any blame whatsoever is laid at Murray's door - the thought of having to say/broadcast/print truths about him will be pushing many 'journalists/editors' close to the edge !

Imho, this is just the closing-stages of their scam - Whyte to get 100% of the blame and Murray to get off scot-free as was planned from the start. After the farce with Nimmo Smith I've little faith in the Scottish-courts delivering justice where the Hun are concerned !

[Dashing Bob S]

Until the 'verdict's announced, it's a comforting thought that 95-97% of the Scottish football-media will probably be s******g themselves senseless in case any blame whatsoever is laid at Murray's door - the thought of having to say/broadcast/print truths about him will be pushing many 'journalists/editors' close to the edge !

Imho, this is just the closing-stages of their scam - Whyte to get 100% of the blame and Murray to get off scot-free as was planned from the start. After the farce with Nimmo Smith I've little faith in the Scottish-courts delivering justice where the Hun are concerned !

Agree with this sadly. More chance of Hitler being done for the Reichstag fire in 30's Germany than the Huns figurehead Murray taking his share of blame in present day Scotland.

[Keith_M]

Until the 'verdict's announced, it's a comforting thought that 95-97% of the Scottish football-media will probably be s******g themselves senseless in case any blame whatsoever is laid at Murray's door - the thought of having to say/broadcast/print truths about him will be pushing many 'journalists/editors' close to the edge !

Imho, this is just the closing-stages of their scam - Whyte to get 100% of the blame and Murray to get off scot-free as was planned from the start. After the farce with Nimmo Smith I've little faith in the Scottish-courts delivering justice where the Hun are concerned !


The DR has already started.

They have an article in today's issue explaining why none of it is Murray's fault.

[Deansy]

The DR has already started.

They have an article in today's issue explaining why none of it is Murray's fault.

Had a quick look (not had my breakfast yet so didn't read too much) they've also got a nostalgic piece on when the Hun 'won' their 'Nine-in-a-row' - making it worse, the 1st line claims it 'Equalled Celtic's record' ??. I'm no lover of Septic but I do believe their achievement was won without any dubiosity or underhanded methods being used or even anyone questioning it but hey - anything to to try and keep the knuckle-scraping hordes morale up, eh !

Just further confirmation of how insidious, odious and ludicrous the 'Daily Rectum' is - it's now well-documented exactly HOW the Hun 'won' their titles/trophies yet this rag continues to pay homage to them as if they achieved admirable/honourable feats ??. If I ever win the lottery the first thing I'm going to do is pay well over the odds for a full-page advert in the 'Rectum' and it'll just say -

THEY F*****G CHEATED YA PATHETIC EXCUSE FOR A PAPER !!

(after it's printed I'll bounce the cheque !)

[JeMeSouviens]

Had a quick look (not had my breakfast yet so didn't read too much) they've also got a nostalgic piece on when the Hun 'won' their 'Nine-in-a-row' - making it worse, the 1st line claims it 'Equalled Celtic's record' ??. I'm no lover of Septic but I do believe their achievement was won without any dubiosity or underhanded methods being used or even anyone questioning it but hey - anything to to try and keep the knuckle-scraping hordes morale up, eh !

Just further confirmation of how insidious, odious and ludicrous the 'Daily Rectum' is - it's now well-documented exactly HOW the Hun 'won' their titles/trophies yet this rag continues to pay homage to them as if they achieved admirable/honourable feats ??. If I ever win the lottery the first thing I'm going to do is pay well over the odds for a full-page advert in the 'Rectum' and it'll just say -

THEY F*****G CHEATED YA PATHETIC EXCUSE FOR A PAPER !!

(after it's printed I'll bounce the cheque !)

Quality rant but the Old Huns' 9 IAR actually preceded the EBT scheme by a few years. :wink:

[Deansy]

Quality rant but the Old Huns' 9 IAR actually preceded the EBT scheme by a few years. :wink:

I'm of the view that whilst Murray was in charge, anything was possible - the only reason they're not being done for his entire time there is because - ahem - paperwork went missing.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm of the view that whilst Murray was in charge, anything was possible - the only reason they're not being done for his entire time there is because - ahem - paperwork went missing.

HMRC have the right to go back 20 years or more.

In situations where they are of the opinion that underdeclaration of tax has occurred in a particular year, they are allowed to assume the same took place in earlier years. The onus then switches to the taxpayer to prove innocence, rather than the HMRC proving guilt.

In that light, "missing paperwork" would not help RFC at all.

The contributions to the EBT are easily proven as starting on a specific date.

[Moulin Yarns]

Back in court.

will try and post what I can from James Doleman.





Shanks agrees after takeover Whyte's company "Wavetower" became the "owner of the debt and could treat it how they wished"

[Ozyhibby]

Quality rant but the Old Huns' 9 IAR actually preceded the EBT scheme by a few years. :wink:

Te overspending didn't. That years Rangers were on financial steroids. Murray then moved the debt over to his metals group and it was never repaid as it collapsed with nearly £1bn of debt.
Murray then bought all the good assets on the cheap using money he had spirited away in his family trust. That's why he is able to fund big property developments on the outskirts of Edinburgh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CyberSauzee]

Until the 'verdict's announced, it's a comforting thought that 95-97% of the Scottish football-media will probably be s******g themselves senseless in case any blame whatsoever is laid at Murray's door - the thought of having to say/broadcast/print truths about him will be pushing many 'journalists/editors' close to the edge !

Imho, this is just the closing-stages of their scam - Whyte to get 100% of the blame and Murray to get off scot-free as was planned from the start. After the farce with Nimmo Smith I've little faith in the Scottish-courts delivering justice where the Hun are concerned !

My head tells me you're spot on with this, however it's superb stuff Findlay is serving up.

Whatever happens the current incarnation of the team playing at Ibrox will have a very, very hard time of ever finding decent funding again.

Perhaps the reason that no-one other than Whyte would buy them and they were subsequently liquidated shows that no-one will touch them, principally due to the vast majority of their supporters extolling bigoted and centuries old views of the world. What rich individual/business would want to get involved with this and risk alienating their existing customers?

The only person I can see getting involved is Ashley - long term as a means of advertising Sports Direct across Europe if the The Rangers ever get that far again. Thankfully, however, Ashley is regarded as a pariah by the bigoted peepul so this is unlikely to happen. Enjoy the slow lingering death of an outdated culture and its focal point institution.

[Moulin Yarns]

some stuff from this morning



Shanks agrees after takeover Whyte'scompany "Wavetower" became the "owner of the debt and couldtreat it how they wished"

Email states "the bank wants to chargea termination fee of £1.5m" on the term loan.

Shanks tells court he cannot explain thetermination fee comment, "it's the first time I've seen this" Judgeintervenes

Shanks says there was no discussion of atermination fee, but there was a £1m cost to close the interest rate"hedge" facility

moves on to 13 April 2011, witness to hisboss "Martin Bain is seeking compensation for losing his job"

Continues Alistair Johnson is happy to paythis, other board members not so supportive

Email continues "Johnson and some ofhis board members are delaying the deal to put their own bid in..we arefrustrated.." "we will withdraw our finance.. Johnson may bepersonally​ liable" "We were playing tough" witness says

Email "If Craig wanted to put the clubinto administration..the process would be quick.. hopefully allow Craig to keepcontrol of club"

Findlay:if insolvency event occured a major creditor could put club into administrationtax debt becomes inconsequential" Shanks "correct"

Shanks "This was written in context of having a dealwith Craig," says board could have put club into administration.

Findlay suggests that control of the club could beretained through administration Shanks "correct"

Lady Stacey asks if HMRC would not have a preferentialstatus as a creditor? Findlay says he is not a tax lawyer

Witness says secured debt to the bank would be paidbefore HMRC and "if there was no money left" they would get nothing

Shanks says Paul Murray's proposal to buy the club"involved new money but we didn't know where it was from... unacceptableto us"

Email 21 April, Shanks to his manager, term loan assignedto Whyte, Rangers board advised" Findlay: "there is nothing theycould do about it

Email 28 April, "concern about board trying to putclub into administration before Mr Whyte takes over"

Findlay on the Rangers board: "Dithering,uncertainty?" Shanks "Those are fair comments"

Findlay "negotiations appear to have been going onthrough the media"? Shanks: "Correct"

Email "David Murray is leaning on AlistairJohnson" Shanks "correct"

Shanks agrees that to keep the Rangers board"quiet" cutting of finance "was an option"

Findlay "There was a benefit to the Murray group ingetting rid of Rangers?" Shanks "Correct"

Shanks says bank had decided to "get out ofRangers" from beginning of Project Charlotte

Findlay "the bank wanted the Murray group to sellRangers to reduce the debt"


tea break

[AndyM_1875]

Te overspending didn't. That years Rangers were on financial steroids. Murray then moved the debt over to his metals group and it was never repaid as it collapsed with nearly £1bn of debt.
Murray then bought all the good assets on the cheap using money he had spirited away in his family trust. That's why he is able to fund big property developments on the outskirts of Edinburgh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It wasn't just Rangers that were overspending though pre the EBT years.
The debt levels at other clubs were skyrocketing as well. Robinson was trying to punt Tynecastle to Cala Homes and move Hearts to Tynecastle so that he could clear historic toxic debt levels to the bank of £over £20m and Rod Petrie memorably applied the spending brakes hard at Hibs in 2002 when our debt hit £18.5m.

[JeMeSouviens]

It wasn't just Rangers that were overspending though pre the EBT years.
The debt levels at other clubs were skyrocketing as well. Robinson was trying to punt Tynecastle to Cala Homes and move Hearts to Tynecastle so that he could clear historic toxic debt levels to the bank of £over £20m and Rod Petrie memorably applied the spending brakes hard at Hibs in 2002 when our debt hit £18.5m.

Yep, we did the same thing albeit on a much lesser scale. If it wasn't for the happy circumstance of Edinburgh land prices skyrocketing so we could sell the car park and the golden generation coming through and being sold for top $ we would have been in the same **** as a bunch of others.

The difference with the Huns and their EBTs (and possibly the Yams and Lith loans) is that they deliberately hid the side letters, their players weren't properly registered and were receiving payments over and above their regular contracts to cheat the taxman and the other clubs. That's what moves it on from dubious behaviour to outright cheating imo.

[Moulin Yarns]

The rest of this mornings proceedings




Shanks says after deal completed banktransferred it's floating charge to Wavetower.

Findlay "Do banks do creditchecks?" Shanks "Yes"

Findlay returns to issue of Murray Metalshe raised yesterday Witness shown his email 21 April 2011

Email "metals business could be spunout to David after he sells his shares in Rangers" Witness confirms Davidis David Murray

Witness confirms sale of metals business toDavid Murray was conditional on sale of his Rangers shares and repayment ofclubs debt

Findlay suggests metals business wasimportant to David Murray personally as it was "where he got started"

Findlay suggests board could have signedMessi and Ronaldo on "ridiculous money" and saddled new owner withthe bill.

Shanks says Murray Group could have calledan EGM to remove Rangers board members if they refused to resign.

Findlay suggests there would be a benefitto David Murray from sale of Rangers Shanks "That was always the agreementin Project Charlotte"

Findlay "the other shareholders aregetting nothing?' Shanks: "If you put it like that" Findlay: "Ijust did"

Findlay "Rangers was sold for a pound,for nothing for all practical purposes" Shanks agrees

Court now looking at agreement between thebank and Murray on sale of shares" Findlay "What's the D.R.A.G?"Shanks doesn't know

Findlay "If Murray group got rid ofRangers David Murray could get his metals business back for a pound?"Shanks agrees

Court being shown a letter David Murraysent to Shanks. Notes debt reduction at Rangers has "exceededexpectations" due to ECL participation

Letter continues with a request from Murrayto "immediately release the metals business from MIH"

Letter signed "Sir David EMurray"

Lloyd's reply to Murray letter now beingshown Is dated 21 Jan 2011. Denies request to sell metals business to Murrayunless.

Unless "RFC is sold prior to the endof April..as previously agreed"

Findlay "If the Rangers deal is donethe metals business is released for £1?" Shanks "That's one wayyes"

Findlay "only way to be sure is dodeal for Rangers before the end of April?" Shanks "Correct"

Findlay "There was no benefit tominority shareholders..they get nothing" Shanks "correct"



LUNCH

[cabbageandribs1875]

there's a song in there


:music:'Shanks' said NO, i don't think so
but i've heard of the mental hibees

[southsider]

This whole thing stinks. It's about time Direcors of Companies became personally liable for the debts their companies acrue rather then leave the taxpayer to pick up the tab whilst the said Directors wash their hands of the debt.

[CropleyWasGod]

This whole thing stinks. It's about time Direcors of Companies became personally liable for the debts their companies acrue rather then leave the taxpayer to pick up the tab whilst the said Directors wash their hands of the debt.

Directors are responsible for company debts, if they are found to be guilty of wrongful trading.

However, if you did that across the board, enterprise and business would collapse in this country. The concept of Limited Liability, which dates back to the 19th Century, underpins so much of our economy.

Taking our own back yard as an example, would we be able to attract the calibre of Board member that we have, if they were held personally liable for the club's debts? I doubt it.

On the RFC case, most of the debt thus far (pending the BTC judgement) is not borne by the taxpayer. It's borne by individuals and businesses.

[southsider]

So it's ok for D.Murray to now worth a reported £159 million when he screwed the tax payer out of hundreds of millions. The wee man pays whilst the rich Cameron, Osborne, Murray etc don't. Sorry mate, it's just how I feel about rich tax dodgers.

[southsider]

In the RFC big tax case even if Hmrc 'win' they will get zilch as that was old co who are no more.

[Moulin Yarns]

Afternoon session

Findlay asks the witness "if you havean overdraft whose money is it?' Shanks: "the bank's"

Findlay suggests that although the money isthe bank's the person with the overdraft can do what they choose with the money

Shanks says the money belongs to "whohas it at the time"

Letter "in connection with proposedsale, as far as we are concerned £1 is the sole consideration for the sale ofRFC, no benefit to Murray"

Findlay suggests "That doesn't squarewith what we heard this morning." Shanks "no benefit to MHL"Findlay "That's splitting hairs"

"If the subsidiary company gets abenefit doesnt the holding company get a benefit?" Shanks "To theMurray group there was"

Findlay says the letter "is not thewhole picture is it?" Shanks "It's what is says" Findlay "Iknow, I can read it"

Findlay says he is moving on to "Thebank's relationship with the Rangers board"

Email from Rangers Chairman AlistairJohnson to Rangers board, Jan 2011 Complains about bank "stringentapplication' of financial agreement

Findlay says he is giving the witness achance to give his position on issues that may arise later in the case

Johnson draft letter "we are allmasquerading as directors..now acting as stooges to pay back the debt..clubthrottled into submission"

Shanks says he agrees bank had a"difficult relationship" with the Rangers board

Letter goes on "The bank has prudentlywritten off the debt" Shanks "We had a legal duty to pursue themoney"

Letter continues "The carnage left byLloyd's policies and the impoverished remains of Rangers Football Club"

Letter points to "Calamitous declinein season ticket sales..bank doesn't understand.'

[Moulin Yarns]

Findlay "if the board had sold aplayer for £20m would the bank demand bet repaid?" Shanks "We werenot taking every penny'

Shanks denies club was facing a"financial catastrophy" says 'club still operating'

Johnson letter "bank has a blind spoton the methods needed to run a football club..an astonishing lack ofunderstanding"

Letter "The consequence will be theclub falling into administration" Shanks says not true

Findlay "An English bank wouldn't wantto put a Scottish institution into administration"

Letter "Board will announce publicallywe have signed credit agreement under duress"

Shanks says he doesn't recall receiving theletter but is not saying he didn't

Letter 24 Jan 2011, Martin Bain to Shanks"Another letter of complaint" Findlay describes as "it's not myfault guv it's the bank's fault"

Witness being shown transcript of interviewwith Alistair Johnson says he was told "The Murray group is heavilyincentiveised to sell club"

Johnson interview continues "The bankwanted all the money, they wouldn't let Rangers off..it would be a precedent.blah blah blah '

Johnson interview "I was told if actswould be performed on me that hadn't been performed on anyone in Scotland since15th century'

Findlay comments "The mindboggles"

Shanks says he "can't comment on the15th century thing" Lady Stacey "You can comment if you saidthat" Shanks "I never said that"

Shanks adds "I did say I wouldwithdraw the credit line" Findlay "It's fantastical nonsense isn'tit"

Findlay on Johnson "He was extendinghis chief executive's contract, giving him pay rises and talking nonsense about15th century?" Agreed

Johnson interview on bank "You haveallowed this debt to run up, you have lent Rangers more than they can payback"

Findlay notes bank's do not go"knocking on people's doors offering loans" witness agrees someonewould have to ask

Johnson interview "My view was..bankshould migrate Rangers debt to Murray group..more chance of getting itback"

Findlay says Johnson was saying "takethe debt off me and give it to David Murray" Shanks says "legally wecan't do that"

Johnson Interview "It just blew mymind they wouldn't do that" also suggests if tax case lost Murray shouldpay

Johnson interview was on the radio in 2012court told

Findlay "this is his (Johnson's)revisionist view of what happened in 2011..it was nonsense then and nonsenselater"



TEA BREAK

[CropleyWasGod]

In the RFC big tax case even if Hmrc 'win' they will get zilch as that was old co who are no more.

That's not the case.

There was over £15m in the creditors pot at the date of the last liquidator's report. (another report is due shortly.) IIRC, there is more legal action pending, which could increase that.

It's a myth that the old company "are no more". The liquidation process will be ongoing for some time yet.

[SuperAllyMcleod]

Had a quick look (not had my breakfast yet so didn't read too much) they've also got a nostalgic piece on when the Hun 'won' their 'Nine-in-a-row' - making it worse, the 1st line claims it 'Equalled Celtic's record' ??. I'm no lover of Septic but I do believe their achievement was won without any dubiosity or underhanded methods being used or even anyone questioning it but hey - anything to to try and keep the knuckle-scraping hordes morale up, eh !

Just further confirmation of how insidious, odious and ludicrous the 'Daily Rectum' is - it's now well-documented exactly HOW the Hun 'won' their titles/trophies yet this rag continues to pay homage to them as if they achieved admirable/honourable feats ??. If I ever win the lottery the first thing I'm going to do is pay well over the odds for a full-page advert in the 'Rectum' and it'll just say -

THEY F*****G CHEATED YA PATHETIC EXCUSE FOR A PAPER !!

(after it's printed I'll bounce the cheque !)

If you are going to bounce the cheque, why do you have to win the lottery first?

[Ozyhibby]

Directors are responsible for company debts, if they are found to be guilty of wrongful trading.

However, if you did that across the board, enterprise and business would collapse in this country. The concept of Limited Liability, which dates back to the 19th Century, underpins so much of our economy.

Taking our own back yard as an example, would we be able to attract the calibre of Board member that we have, if they were held personally liable for the club's debts? I doubt it.

On the RFC case, most of the debt thus far (pending the BTC judgement) is not borne by the taxpayer. It's borne by individuals and businesses.

Agree with everything you say above, limited liability is one of the reasons the west is as rich as it is.
I do think though that a director who has been involved in an insolvency should be banned from buying the assets from the company after the insolvency. They should have to walk away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

Agree with everything you say above, limited liability is one of the reasons the west is as rich as it is.
I do think though that a director who has been involved in an insolvency should be banned from buying the assets from the company after the insolvency. They should have to walk away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, I hear you. There's a lot of merit in that.

Sometimes, though, it's the only way that the creditors will get to see any cash.

It should also be remembered that a lot of insolvencies are unavoidable, ie they aren't the directors' fault. (If a major customer goes under without warning, for example).

[Moulin Yarns]

Last bit…. (my bold bits for emphasis)


Witness shown document, letter Oct 2009bank letter to RFC Directors

Letter sets our details of loan and bankingfacilities available to Rangers Football Club

Shanks says email was written by hispredecessor, is to Alistair Johnson then chairman

Email "There seems to be a belief thatthe club can operate beyond its means with impunity"

Email calls budget "not a supportablestrategy" as assumes Champions League entry every year for 3 years

"This state of affairs reflects verybadly on the executive management of the club"

"Raises considerable concerns abouttheir ability to deal with this very difficult situation" no "cultureof prudent financial management"

Findlay "We have a chairman who will blame anyoneother than himself" Shanks "Correct"

Shanks says he thinks financial situationwas "manageable" in 2011. Findlay "Thanks to the bank?"Shanks "No extra money put in"

Findlay "Rangers board were doing verylittle internally to improve their situation" Shanks "Agreed"

Findlay "My Whyte came in with theonly plausible bid?" Shanks "Agreed"

Witness shown email he sent to Martin Bain3 Sept 2010 1. Debt target for 2011 £18m 2. To secure Jelovic, Rapid Viennawant cash guarantee

Email shows Jelavic transfer backed by loan fromTicketus, "not to appear on accounts"

Findlay says hidden from shareholders? Shanks "Notin accounts' Findlay "They hid the use of Ticketus?" Shanks"Yes"

Email continues bank demand to take furthermoney from Ticketus to reduce debt

Findlay "As a matter of principleTicketus money could be used to pay back debt?" Shanks "Yes"Cross-examination ends





Advocate Depute rises to re-examine,withess confirms bank not a party to share purchase agreement Shanks"Don't believe so"

AD "Your information is thirdhand" Shanks "Correct"

Witness confirms Lloyd's had a duty to itsown shareholders and employees

Witness repeats bank was not interested insource of Whyte's funds "as long as it was legal"

Shanks says he believed the sale to CraigWhyte would lead to a favourable outcome for all parties

Shanks says he understood Rangers usedTicketus on an annual basis for working capital

AD suggests Whyte was not a director ofRangers and had no right to enter into a relationship with Ticketus on club'sbehalf

Re-examination ends. Shanks steps down fromwitness box. Court adjourns until 10 am tomorrow

[Jack Hackett]

Thanks for the days updates GF. Your bolded bits are very juicy :agree: :greengrin

[Deansy]

Findlay "if the board had sold aplayer for £20m would the bank demand bet repaid?" Shanks "We werenot taking every penny'

Shanks denies club was facing a"financial catastrophy" says 'club still operating'

Johnson letter "bank has a blind spoton the methods needed to run a football club..an astonishing lack ofunderstanding"

Letter "The consequence will be theclub falling into administration" Shanks says not true

Findlay "An English bank wouldn't wantto put a Scottish institution into administration"

Letter "Board will announce publicallywe have signed credit agreement under duress"

Shanks says he doesn't recall receiving theletter but is not saying he didn't

Letter 24 Jan 2011, Martin Bain to Shanks"Another letter of complaint" Findlay describes as "it's not myfault guv it's the bank's fault"

Witness being shown transcript of interviewwith Alistair Johnson says he was told "The Murray group is heavilyincentiveised to sell club"

Johnson interview continues "The bankwanted all the money, they wouldn't let Rangers off..it would be a precedent.blah blah blah '

Johnson interview "I was told if actswould be performed on me that hadn't been performed on anyone in Scotland since15th century'

Findlay comments "The mindboggles"

Shanks says he "can't comment on the15th century thing" Lady Stacey "You can comment if you saidthat" Shanks "I never said that"

Shanks adds "I did say I wouldwithdraw the credit line" Findlay "It's fantastical nonsense isn'tit"

Findlay on Johnson "He was extendinghis chief executive's contract, giving him pay rises and talking nonsense about15th century?" Agreed

Johnson interview on bank "You haveallowed this debt to run up, you have lent Rangers more than they can payback"

Findlay notes bank's do not go"knocking on people's doors offering loans" witness agrees someonewould have to ask

Johnson interview "My view was..bankshould migrate Rangers debt to Murray group..more chance of getting itback"

Findlay says Johnson was saying "takethe debt off me and give it to David Murray" Shanks says "legally wecan't do that"

Johnson Interview "It just blew mymind they wouldn't do that" also suggests if tax case lost Murray shouldpay

Johnson interview was on the radio in 2012court told

Findlay "this is his (Johnson's)revisionist view of what happened in 2011..it was nonsense then and nonsenselater"



TEA BREAK



No denying Johnson's a Hun, eh - reading that he genuinely seems gobsmacked that the bank wouldn't lie down to the 'Mighty Rangers' - how dare they !. Throughout Murray's time the Hun literally 'Bought' Scottish Football (and the titles/trophies that goes with it) with the bank's money but then didn't want to pay the money back !


If you are going to bounce the cheque, why do you have to win the lottery first?

Really ?? Ok, the lottery-win was just to let them think I was good for the money - the bouncing is just out of sheer devilment because it's the 'Daily Rectum' !

[HoboHarry]

If this mornings witness was correct in saying that the bank did not care that the money to repay the debt came from Ticketus and it was within the law, why is there a trial going on at all?

[CropleyWasGod]

If this mornings witness was correct in saying that the bank did not care that the money to repay the debt came from Ticketus and it was within the law, why is there a trial going on at all?
I read it as him saying they didn't care where the money came from as long as it was within the law.



Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[HoboHarry]

I read it as him saying they didn't care where the money came from as long as it was within the law.



Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
OK but if it was not within the law where does that leave them? I'm having a hard time believing there was no due diligence carried out on their part....

[CropleyWasGod]

OK but if it was not within the law where does that leave them? I'm having a hard time believing there was no due diligence carried out on their part....
I'm sure they will.be asking themselves the same question. If CW is found guilty, they may be guilty of benefitting from the proceeds of crime.

TBH, though, they have probably relied on RFC doing their own due diligence.
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[HoboHarry]

I'm sure they will.be asking themselves the same question. If CW is found guilty, they may be guilty of benefitting from the proceeds of crime.

TBH, though, they have probably relied on RFC doing their own due diligence.
Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
Can't imagine that will excuse them in law, especially given the evidence we have heard thus far. I can see this trial collapsing fairly soon at this rate.......

Seems to me that Donald Findlay is playing a blinder here......

[CropleyWasGod]

Can't imagine that will excuse them in law, especially given the evidence we have heard thus far. I can see this trial collapsing fairly soon at this rate.......

Seems to me that Donald Findlay is playing a blinder here......
There's lots still to play for yet.

The Ticketus evidence will be crucial, and then there's the Duff & Phelps guys. I am wondering if the reason that the charges against them were dropped was to persuade them to be the star witnesses for the Crown.

You're right about DF though. 😆

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[s.a.m]

There's lots still to play for yet.

The Ticketus evidence will be crucial, and then there's the Duff & Phelps guys. I am wondering if the reason that the charges against them were dropped was to persuade them to be the star witnesses for the Crown.

You're right about DF though. 😆

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

Turning Queen's evidence...against the Queen's Eleven?:greengrin

[O'Rourke3]

Seems to me that Donald Findlay is playing a blinder here......

He'll release that album of folk songs if he wins and cash in on the publicity.

[Jack]

Two things strike me reading the transcript.

What a shower of arrogant @#£%&-+s the rangers board were.

The ongoings then could only be eclipsed by what's going on now!

[Joe6-2]

Can anyone tell me what's the worst that can happen to them?

[lapsedhibee]

Can anyone tell me what's the worst that can happen to them?

Worst thing that can happen to a hun is to have its blood analysed and discovered to be kafflick.

[ehf]

There's lots still to play for yet.

The Ticketus evidence will be crucial, and then there's the Duff & Phelps guys. I am wondering if the reason that the charges against them were dropped was to persuade them to be the star witnesses for the Crown.

You're right about DF though. 😆

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

In the pantheon of shameful trials the Scottish criminal justice system has perpetrated over the last few decades, I never thought anything would top Lockerbie but this is going to come close.

It is obvious that Whyte was the sucker/patsy in all this. A scandalous waste of public money for COPFS to proceed with these charges. Mesmerising entertainment, though:greengrin

[Skol]

Findlay's position here is intruiging.

He was a member of that board and presumably knows a lot of 'stuff'. I dont think he was still on the board at the time though having been caught on camera with some FTP type banter!

You would have thought there may be some loyalty, but maybe he wants revenge.

Add to that, for all that he is an unsavoury character, he is pretty clever and knows his stuff.

My money would be on Findlay winning

[Colr]

Seems to me that Donald Findlay is playing a blinder here......


Findlay objected to me being on a jury once. (For which I was grateful).

[jacomo]

Findlay's position here is intruiging.

He was a member of that board and presumably knows a lot of 'stuff'. I dont think he was still on the board at the time though having been caught on camera with some FTP type banter!

You would have thought there may be some loyalty, but maybe he wants revenge.

Add to that, for all that he is an unsavoury character, he is pretty clever and knows his stuff.

My money would be on Findlay winning


Maybe he felt hung out to dry by the rest of the Board when he had to resign after signing The Sash?

Maybe the whole Board liked to get together and sing songs?

The fact that an ex vice Chair of Rangers is playing such a prominent role in this case raises questions. Scotland eh?

[JeMeSouviens]

Findlay's position here is intruiging.

He was a member of that board and presumably knows a lot of 'stuff'. I dont think he was still on the board at the time though having been caught on camera with some FTP type banter!

You would have thought there may be some loyalty, but maybe he wants revenge.

Add to that, for all that he is an unsavoury character, he is pretty clever and knows his stuff.

My money would be on Findlay winning

He was long gone by 10 years or more by the time of these events. David Murray was no longer on the board either. Not sure if he overlapped with any of the board at the time of the Whyte takeover.

[Deansy]

Wonder if Donald Findlay is the first lawyer - out of all the lawyers involved in all the court-cases that've arisen from them being caught cheating, began - that hasn't received death-threats and hasn't required protection and safety-advice from the 'Special Branch' ?.

[AndyM_1875]

Findlay's position here is intruiging.

He was a member of that board and presumably knows a lot of 'stuff'. I dont think he was still on the board at the time though having been caught on camera with some FTP type banter!

You would have thought there may be some loyalty, but maybe he wants revenge.

Add to that, for all that he is an unsavoury character, he is pretty clever and knows his stuff.

My money would be on Findlay winning

Perhaps. He was dropped like a hot toley by Murray and the Rangers board after his well documented pished up sing song. So there will be an element of "afters" from him doubtlessly.

I wouldn't say he's unsavoury, he's a QC and a very experienced one. He has the reputation for taking 'unwinnable' cases and wrecking them by ripping apart the Fiscal's cases. There are a number of absolute villans walking at liberty because of him. And don't confuse his cartoon image for some halfwitted knuckle dragging FTP Orange type. He's an atheist and has no time for God botherers of any type.

[Brunswickbill]

I remember reading that CW had claimed the film rights to the takeover. I said at the time that it would be a unique movie as it would be the only one I know of where all the characters are baddies. After reading what's going on at the trial, I rest my case m'lud.

[Bostonhibby]

Perhaps. He was dropped like a hot toley by Murray and the Rangers board after his well documented pished up sing song. So there will be an element of "afters" from him doubtlessly.

I wouldn't say he's unsavoury, he's a QC and a very experienced one. He has the reputation for taking 'unwinnable' cases and wrecking them by ripping apart the Fiscal's cases. There are a number of absolute villans walking at liberty because of him. And don't confuse his cartoon image for some halfwitted knuckle dragging FTP Orange type. He's an atheist and has no time for God botherers of any type.
My friend is a lawyer in Edinburgh and he says exactly the same thing about Findlay.

That said still can't help thinking it's a giant masonic conspiracy to hang all the blame on Whyte and gloss over all the other stuff with the help of a the rangers friendly meejah.[emoji6]



Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

[AndyM_1875]

My friend is a lawyer in Edinburgh and he says exactly the same thing about Findlay.

That said still can't help thinking it's a giant masonic conspiracy to hang all the blame on Whyte and gloss over all the other stuff with the help of a the rangers friendly meejah.[emoji6]



Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

Sellik Mick from Carfin told me the same thing:greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

Sellik Mick from Carfin told me the same thing:greengrin
[emoji1]

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Star Wars Day


First witness of the day, Michael McGill


Murray GroupFinance Director

[JeMeSouviens]

Perhaps. He was dropped like a hot toley by Murray and the Rangers board after his well documented pished up sing song. So there will be an element of "afters" from him doubtlessly.

I wouldn't say he's unsavoury, he's a QC and a very experienced one. He has the reputation for taking 'unwinnable' cases and wrecking them by ripping apart the Fiscal's cases. There are a number of absolute villans walking at liberty because of him. And don't confuse his cartoon image for some halfwitted knuckle dragging FTP Orange type. He's an atheist and has no time for God botherers of any type.

According to Findlay's own account, he called Murray to resign from the board as soon as he was aware it was in the papers.

[Moulin Yarns]

And we are off and running

McGill asked to explain difference betweenadministration and liquidation. Says first is attempt to save a company, latteris end of it

McGill asked about a "pre-packadministration" Says is when a company goes into administration with abuyer arranged in advance.

McGill says no banking guarantee betweenthe football club and the wider group. Bank could not make Murray Group payclub debts

McGill: in December 2005 Murray groupinvested £57.1m in Rangers to "reduce indebtedness'

Witness says economic downturn in 2008 hada big impact on the group, Murray International Metals sold along with otherbusinesses

McGill says aim in Project Charlotte was tosell assets and reduce debt. "Rangers by its nature took adisproportionate amount of time"

McGill says Rangers generated little valuefor the group

"Not a huge amount of interest inacquiring Murray's share in the club" McGill tells the court

Withess says there was a bid from aconsortium led by Andrew Ellis in 2010.

Two individuals introduced by the brotherof an English premier league manager, said they had €50m, proof of funds letter"fraudulent"

A bid for Rangers from a Lithuanian bank was rejected asthere were fears it was linked to money laundering and organised crime

Main conditions of sale were bank debteliminated and investment into the club McGill says.

McGill says any bid for the shares thatdidn't include investment into the club; "isn't something we would haveconsidered"

Bank of Scotland funded 10 of the 12Scottish premier football clubs McGill says but after takeover by Lloyd'swanted out of sector

McGill says club was introduced to Whyte byAndrew Ellis.

TEA BREAK

[mim]

I wonder which of the many Lithuanian banks he is meaning?? :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Hearts were already 'owned' by Ukios Bankas by the time of Craig Whyte's takeover at Rangers.

Tea break over


McGill says club had performed well in2009/2010 season and gained access to the Champions League. No longer"actively seeking" to sell club

McGill says he was not aware of anypressure from Lloyds bank to sell the club, Murray group still "open tooffers" though

Bank not a party to proposed sale but dueto debt "had to be involved" McGill says

McGill says he was aware of Ticketus,agrees their parent company was called "Octopus"

McGill says Rangers could not gain aconsumer credit licence to take direct debit payments "because of one ofthe directors" (WHO?)

McGill says in 2009 club looked like wasgoing breach bank credit facility, money borrowed from Ticketus, £5-6m thatyear and again in 2010

McGill says Ticketus took control of someseats in the stadium, repayment when season tickets sold for these

McGill says Ticketus transaction did notappear on accounts as funds advanced in October and repaid in April, "norequirement to disclose"

Hence no liability when accounts produced

McGill says no desire to hide Ticketustransaction but they "recognised for some fans would be a sensitiveissue"

McGill says lawyer Gary Withey said he hadseen a proof of funds letter from a "UK financial institution" Emailconfirmation shown in court

McGill says proof of funds letter gave"comfort that the bidder had the funds to continue" allowed bidder to"kick the tyres"

Advocate Depute "Did you know the firmCollyer Bristow?" McGill "I had walked past their office"

McGill says he first met Whyte in London inlate 2010 to discuss transaction and the "Independent committee"

McGill says Independent committee was setup to represent minority shareholders. Any offer to majority shareholder mustbe made to all

McGill says "At all times My Whyteassured us the funds were coming from his personal resources" says thesewere verbal assurances not email

McGill says he has "no recollectionwhatever" of discussing a wider use of Ticketus by Whyte

McGill says initial deal was £5.5m for 100%of the shares Later reduced to a "notional pound"

"It was a £27.5m transaction, not apound" McGill tells the court

McGill says Whyte told him the £5m workingcapital for the deal was "coming from a recognised UK financialinstitution" rest from own funds

McGill says he had no knowledge Whyte wasusing 3 years of future season ticket income to finance purchase.

McGill says the Rangers board were"generally not supportive" of sale. Wanted funding for big tax caseif lost. "Not an issue for Murray"

McGill "we could have sold or walkedaway" but wanted to see investment in the club

McGill "The football club is rather anunusual asset which carries press a PR responsibilities" Murray didn'twant to just "walk away"

McGill, David Murray's sole concern was tosee investment in the club




LUNCH

[Geo_1875]

Hearts were already 'owned' by Ukios Bankas by the time of Craig Whyte's takeover at Rangers.

Maybe Vlad realised he'd bought the wee Huns by mistake and wanted to trade them in for something bigger?

[Moulin Yarns]

Afternoon session



McGill says Murray asked repeatedly forWhyte to deposit funds into a "client account" held by a solicitors

McGill says he did not think Withey letterwas sufficient proof of funds, but was enough to "open the door of thedata room"

Court shown letter from Collyer Bristow re"project Charlotte" says "Newco" will have sufficient funds

McGill says "Newco" was thecompany being set up to carry out the acquisition

Letter goes on to say Whyte's​ company wasthe beneficial owner of Liberty Capital, based in the Virgin islands

Letter "The share capital of Newcowill be owned by Andrew Ellis (tba %) Chris Akers (tba%) and Liberty Capital(75%) Tba-To be Arranged

Letter "Total financial requirementsfor Project Charlotte is £33m' "None of the finance to be secured againstthe assets of the target."

Email from Craig Whyte to McGill April 222011: "As discussed have attached update on working capital..£5m pa forplayers"

Email also mentions additional workingcapital from Ticketus

McGill reply to Whyte "We have not hadsufficient comfort on the issue of working capital"

McGill "The last thing we wanted wassomeone to buy the club on day one then go bust the next week"

Gary Withey email to McGill, says Wavetowerhas access to £5m in working capital from a "UK financialinstitution"

31 March email from Gary Withey: "I ampleased to confirm I now have access to the funds to complete thetransaction"

McGill, "that wasn't enough for us ashaving access to the funds not the same as having them." Still wanteddeposit into client account

McGill email to on same day re funds:"I think it would be helpful to know how much you have received and howmuch you are waiting on"

Witness now being asked about SharePurchase Agreement between Whyte and Murray, says in corporate terms is"concise"

McGill says under the impression "Allthe funds were resting in the account of Collyer Bristow"

Says if he had known funds came fromTicketus would not have completed transaction, not legacy Murray wanted toleave behind


McGill reading all 27 pages of SharePurchase Agreement



Afternoon Tea Break

[greenginger]

I wonder which of the many Lithuanian banks he is meaning?? :wink:

Not necessarily the Ukio.

There was another Lith. bank , the Snoras or something that was funding Portsmouth and its Lith. owner .

It went down the tubes about a year before Vlad did his disappearing act to Moscow for err , em health reasons.

[Eyrie]

Tom English jeopardising his continued employment by the BBC with an article asking awkward questions about King (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39784876). Nothing new in there, but good to see the MSM finally allowing something other than a servile attitude to Sevco.

[ancient hibee]

Unfair.ThevBBC investigations team worked hard to expose Rangers cheating.

[Bostonhibby]

Unfair.ThevBBC investigations team worked hard to expose Rangers cheating.

Indeed, pretty early on in the whole mess I am pretty sure someone tipped them off that it was them kaffliks wot dun it so they closed down all semblance of investigations there and then as you would expect from a serious national news agency.

[seanshow]

Afternoon session

Afternoon Tea Break


Thanks for all the updates :aok:

was there anymore before close of play.

[CropleyWasGod]

Thanks for all the updates :aok:

was there anymore before close of play.
McGill was reading all 27 pages of the Share Purchase Agreement. This may take some time. 😁

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[grunt]

.

[Moulin Yarns]

McGill was reading all 27 pages of the Share Purchase Agreement. This may take some time. 😁

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk


Cheers CWG, I should have made rustling of paper sounds :greengrin. The highlight was when the words couldn't be read because of hole punches and McGill missed a paragraph!!

[Oscar T Grouch]

Seen this on twitter this morning. Not sure if it's relevance to this thread but thought I'd post it anyway.

http://www.vanguardbears.co.uk/article.php?i=150&a=do-not-fund-the-scottish-press

[Moulin Yarns]

Don't expect much to happen this morning

Proceedings resume with Crown witness Michael McGill continuing to read out the Share Purchase Agreement between Craig Whyte and Murray

I'll keep an eye on it, but will be watching my local election results as well

[Bostonhibby]

Seen this on twitter this morning. Not sure if it's relevance to this thread but thought I'd post it anyway.

http://www.vanguardbears.co.uk/article.php?i=150&a=do-not-fund-the-scottish-press

Probably of zero impact as most of them can't read so the post itself will be a problem, never mind not knowing what to do with a newspaper which they previously thought was a dinner plate.

[lapsedhibee]

a newspaper which they previously thought was a dinner plate

:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Not going back over this mornings proceedings, but this confirms something


Findlay notes Lithuanian bank whose bid was rejected for links to organised crime went on to buy Portsmouth.

[Topographic Hibby]

Don't expect much to happen this morning

Proceedings resume with Crown witness Michael McGill continuing to read out the Share Purchase Agreement between Craig Whyte and Murrayl

I minimal legal training, but what is the point in asking a witness to read out a 27 page document. If I were on the jury, I would lose interest and probably, the will to live, after the second paragraph on the first page.

Or is that the point?

[Iain G]

Probably of zero impact as most of them can't read so the post itself will be a problem, never mind not knowing what to do with a newspaper which they previously thought was a dinner plate.

Talk about a skewed warped view of the world, feel like I may get in trouble at work for clicking on that link, I feel dirty now!

All they do is deflect from the inherent issues that were at the very heart of their now dead football club and its zombie clone that is masquerading in its place.

[Moulin Yarns]

McGill says they explored idea of a "fans buyout" but other Directors rejected it.Says met Dave King in London and were expecting an offer

Subsequently learned he was "unable to progress the transaction..assets in the UK were frozen"

Findlay says Paul Murray bid involved bank not getting their money back and Murray group to pay for big tax caseMcGill "Wasn't workable"

Findlay asks about £1.7m health and safety requirements for stadium. McGill says found out in 2010Findlay suggests work not being done

Findlay "Who was responsible for that?"McGill "The board"Findlay "That was you" :greengrin

Findlay says bill for small tax case was originally £2.3m, as no payments made went up to £2.8m"All you were doing was wasting money?"

McGill says they were negotiating with the bankFindlay "the bank wouldn't pay that, we've heard evidence to that"

Findlay "Let me put this bluntly, as the jury now know is my way" you just left it hoping someone else would pay." :greengrin

McGill agrees neither the group or the club could have paid. Findlay "that would be the end of Rangers?" :greengrin

AND HERE IT IS

McGill "If they came out if insolvency that would have preserved the old club."Findlay "Let's not go into all that" :wink:

[HoboHarry]

McGill says they explored idea of a "fans buyout" but other Directors rejected it.Says met Dave King in London and were expecting an offer

Subsequently learned he was "unable to progress the transaction..assets in the UK were frozen"

Findlay says Paul Murray bid involved bank not getting their money back and Murray group to pay for big tax caseMcGill "Wasn't workable"

Findlay asks about £1.7m health and safety requirements for stadium. McGill says found out in 2010Findlay suggests work not being done

Findlay "Who was responsible for that?"McGill "The board"Findlay "That was you" :greengrin

Findlay says bill for small tax case was originally £2.3m, as no payments made went up to £2.8m"All you were doing was wasting money?"

McGill says they were negotiating with the bankFindlay "the bank wouldn't pay that, we've heard evidence to that"

Findlay "Let me put this bluntly, as the jury now know is my way" you just left it hoping someone else would pay." :greengrin

McGill agrees neither the group or the club could have paid. Findlay "that would be the end of Rangers?" :greengrin

AND HERE IT IS

McGill "If they came out if insolvency that would have preserved the old club."Findlay "Let's not go into all that" :wink:
I don't really understand the statement in bold? What is that meant to mean?

[Moulin Yarns]

I minimal legal training, but what is the point in asking a witness to read out a 27 page document. If I were on the jury, I would lose interest and probably, the will to live, after the second paragraph on the first page.

Or is that the point?

I didn't think there would be anything juicy in it, but there were one or two interesting bits about transfer of liability and the like. The Jury all got a copy so they could follow what was being said.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't really understand the statement in bold? What is that meant to mean?

Remember, they are STILL in insolvency. Cue CWG :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

McGill says he didn't know about the small tax caseFindlay "The financial director didn't know about a tax avoidance scheme?"

McGill says he was told by a QC the case could be fought, until side letters discovered when he said "you have to pay"

Court being shown email from McGill Nov 2010. Asks for info on discount option scheme 1 who introduced it? 2 who administered it?

McGill says scheme was introduced by a firm of accountants, was only ever used in RFC from 1999

Findlay "Who was chairman of Rangers in 1999!"McGill "I believe that was Sir David Murray" :top marks

[HoboHarry]

Remember, they are STILL in insolvency. Cue CWG :wink:
Exactly - that would take years no? CWG - get oot yer bed ya lazy git and explain to the masses :)

[Moulin Yarns]

Exactly - that would take years no? CWG - get oot yer bed ya lazy git and explain to the masses :)

Old Club + insolvent = DEID. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Squirm time :greengrin

McGill, "I don't believe David Murray introduced the scheme"Findlay "Loyalty is commendable but the chairman is responsible"

McGill says he found out about Employee Benefit Trusts (EBT) when he joined the company. Was implemented across Murray Group. ("wisnae me")

Findlay asks who was chairman of the board when EBT's introduced at Rangers?McGill "That would be Mr Murray"Findlay "It's the same people

McGill, "If the big tax case was lost the club would have entered insolvency, that's my view" Findlay "what price the legacy then?"

McGill says Murray was clear a buyer would have to invest in team, pay bank £18m and repair the stadiumNot yet aware of small tax case

Findlay suggests in business negotiations people will keep cards close to chest and "lie to each other, but you call it negotiation"

Findlay suggests "if you were buying a company you wouldn't disclose your business plan", the other person might take it

Findlay "Why does it matter where the money comes from, as long as it's legal?_

[Moulin Yarns]

McGill agrees only "very limited due diligence on Mr Whyte"Findlay "who did you hire to do it"McGill "We didn't"

McGill says Whyte's name was in the public domain and "the press" would be investigating him.

Findlay "Can you answer the question, that's the way it works normally"Suggests there are firms who investigate people, "did you hire one?

McGill, "No"

Findlay asks "what if I just told you" money was mine. McGill That would be your own resourcesFindlay "can we stop going off on tangents"

Findlay reminds McGill he has a law degree yet l "jumped to his own conclusions"McGill, "That's your view"Findlay "My view doesnt matter"

Findlay suggests "once I own the asset I can do what I like"?McGill "Subject to company law, yes"

Findlay "Were you at the Dorchester when it all went wrong"McGill, "I don't understand the question"

Findlay explains he is discussing abortive sale of Rangers, "The fiasco"McGill Denies fiasco, but was aware of meeting

McGill Says documents were not ready to signFindlay "That's not the impression Murray gave"

Findlay "If you are talking to a property developer worth asking if he is planning to put flats on Ibrox, did you ask him?"McGill No

Findlay, if you were selling something so precious to so many people you would look in every corner

McGill "We had no reason to doubt what he (Whyte) was telling us

Court adjourns for the day. No sitting on Monday as judge has another committment.Case to resume Tuesday at 10ak

[CropleyWasGod]

I minimal legal training, but what is the point in asking a witness to read out a 27 page document. If I were on the jury, I would lose interest and probably, the will to live, after the second paragraph on the first page.

Or is that the point?
Remember that this is the prosecution case.

They're trying to demonstrate that there is nothing in the SPA that would justify CW doing what he (allegedly) did.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

On Mcgills comment about the insolvency.....

I read it as his expressing an opinion on the old club / new club debate. Nothing more.

Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

[Deansy]

Seen this on twitter this morning. Not sure if it's relevance to this thread but thought I'd post it anyway.

http://www.vanguardbears.co.uk/article.php?i=150&a=do-not-fund-the-scottish-press

(on they gut making monkey-gestures and they gut who tried to attack Brown)

'While there is much anger in the Rangers community at those who have let us down'

Hmm, doesn't read that way in Hun-media -

'These ****s doing what they want at Ibrox has caused this, **** *******s, and not a Rangers player challenging it. ****ing disgraceful

- and that's one of the milder posts on that that (now well-known on .net) particular thread !

[Fuzzywuzzy]

http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/topic/305242-rashid-sumaila/?page=1

Needless to say the question of religion is immediate. And these ****ers wonder why they are hated

[Keith_M]

Whether you consider the current incumbents of Ibrox to be the same or a new club, one thing we surely can agree on is that the club and its followers are worthy successors to the hideous Rangers FC.


Two people arrested for obscene racism, no mention of the obscene religious bigotry from the majority

[Moulin Yarns]

Back in court today.

Findlay cross examining McGill.

I'll post what I think relevant when they break.

[Ozyhibby]

McGill, HMRC produced "letters" in March which made appeal over small tax case impossible
#WhyteTrial

Stewart Regan has now been shown to have lied about the wee tax case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

so far this morning



Continues

Jury come into court, case resumes withcontinuation of cross-examination of former Murray group director Mike McGill

McGill confirms this is re "Thesmall tax case" Total due £2,238,559.91p (including interest)

Letter also points out interest isaccruing, suggests making a payment to stop interest growing

Findlay asks if Whyte bid was underway atthis date? McGill It was underway, Whyte not informed until later asappeal underway

McGill, HMRC produced "letters" inMarch which made appeal over small tax case impossible

Findlay on the tax scheme: "The way itwas being run was incompetent?" McGill: "Yes"

McGill says Whyte was not told aboutpotential tax liability until "later" in the process

Findlay asks about the "dataroom" set up for Whyte's​ takeover McGill says aware "sensitiveinformation" not put in,player and exec wages

Findlay notes correspondence with HMRC wasvia the Murray' group not Rangers. McGill says was being managed "onbehalf of Rangers"

Findlay notes that a buyer would be unlikelyto ask "Out of interest do you have any unpaid liabilities with HMRC youhaven't mentioned"

Findlay suggests Whyte was not giveninformation on big tax case as "commercially sensitive" for MurrayGroup McGill, "I couldn't comment"

Findlay asks if Whyte and Murray had any"informal chats" about the takeover McGill: "That may havehappened"

McGill now being shown email from MrHorn of Murray Group from 5 April 2011, a month before sale to Whyte

Email says "I dont believe thepurchaser has the resources" McGill, there was discussion aboutring-fencing season ticket money

Continues "We have no idea if thepurchaser has the funds to run the club after purchase" McGill saysthere was a "solicitors undertaking"

Findlay "Was that it"?McGill "Yes"

Findlay turns to the Share PurchaseAgreement between Murray and Whyte

McGill agrees is important SharePurchase Agreement is clear to all parties. Attached "solicitorsundertaking" should also be "unequivocal"

Findlay "Did you read this before yousigned it?" McGill "Yes

Findlay notes Share Purchase Agreement saysabout funds: "It has immediately available from its own, and third partysources"

Findlay "The purchaser is saying notall the money is coming from him and you signed?" McGill: "Yes"

Findlay "You would expect the lawyersto get this right" as is sale of a "major Scottish institution"

Continues "Was anyone seriouslyexpecting Mr Whyte to turn up with £20m in a suitcase"

McGill agrees that in terms of the SharePurchase Agreement the word "third party" could be singular or plural

Findlay to McGill "Why on earth wouldyou sign a Share Purchase Agreement you could drive a coach and horsesthrough?"

McGill Says he knew about third partyfunding for working capital.

Findlay asks does the agreement limit thirdparty funding to working capital McGill, 'No it does not"

Findlay on £20m investment "What'spoint of putting that in..is just PR window dressing" McGill "you maycall it that Findlay "I just did"

Findlay on £5m investment "Were onearth was £5m going to get them in the Champions League.."Wouldn't havegot them Messi's left foot"

McGill "Was more than Murray groupcould put in" Findlay "Exactly" McGill "We found nobenefactor"

If Murray Group had carried on runningRangers would not have been investment McGill says

Findlay returns to small tax case, McGillsays Share Purchase Agreement still gave Whyte right to appeal it. Findlay"no obligation"

Findlay notes Share Purchase Agreementguarantees £5m to be available to Rangers for players "Who was the ownerof Rangers?" Mr Whyte

Findlay a "Pointless undertaking"as Whyte as owner could just not ask for the money McGill "I hear what youare saying"

McGill Taking over the club and notinvesting would be "odd" Findlay "We are not interested in whatyou think is odd.."

Continues "What amateur drew this up?'

Findlay "Did none of your advisors notnotice this and say 'dont sign this" McGill "no"

McGill agrees there was a major"health and safety issue" at Ibrox. Cites problem with Public Addresssystem, £1.7m within 12 months

Findlay notes "your telling the newowner he can shut half the stadium and you can't do anything about it"

Findlay: "The obligations arequalified McGill "They are qualified by time" Findlay "Aroundhere we call that a qualification"

Findlay:"If there is a health andsafety issue that is something you have to address" yet agreement gives 12months for money to be released

McGill "we sold the club on the basishe had the £5m, he still had flexibility when to put funds in."

Court takes it's morning break

[brog]

so far this morning



Continues

Jury come into court, case resumes withcontinuation of cross-examination of former Murray group director Mike McGill

McGill confirms this is re "Thesmall tax case" Total due £2,238,559.91p (including interest)

Letter also points out interest isaccruing, suggests making a payment to stop interest growing

Findlay asks if Whyte bid was underway atthis date? McGill It was underway, Whyte not informed until later asappeal underway

McGill, HMRC produced "letters" inMarch which made appeal over small tax case impossible

Findlay on the tax scheme: "The way itwas being run was incompetent?" McGill: "Yes"

McGill says Whyte was not told aboutpotential tax liability until "later" in the process

Findlay asks about the "dataroom" set up for Whyte's​ takeover McGill says aware "sensitiveinformation" not put in,player and exec wages

Findlay notes correspondence with HMRC wasvia the Murray' group not Rangers. McGill says was being managed "onbehalf of Rangers"

Findlay notes that a buyer would be unlikelyto ask "Out of interest do you have any unpaid liabilities with HMRC youhaven't mentioned"

Findlay suggests Whyte was not giveninformation on big tax case as "commercially sensitive" for MurrayGroup McGill, "I couldn't comment"

Findlay asks if Whyte and Murray had any"informal chats" about the takeover McGill: "That may havehappened"

McGill now being shown email from MrHorn of Murray Group from 5 April 2011, a month before sale to Whyte

Email says "I dont believe thepurchaser has the resources" McGill, there was discussion aboutring-fencing season ticket money

Continues "We have no idea if thepurchaser has the funds to run the club after purchase" McGill saysthere was a "solicitors undertaking"

Findlay "Was that it"?McGill "Yes"

Findlay turns to the Share PurchaseAgreement between Murray and Whyte

McGill agrees is important SharePurchase Agreement is clear to all parties. Attached "solicitorsundertaking" should also be "unequivocal"

Findlay "Did you read this before yousigned it?" McGill "Yes

Findlay notes Share Purchase Agreement saysabout funds: "It has immediately available from its own, and third partysources"

Findlay "The purchaser is saying notall the money is coming from him and you signed?" McGill: "Yes"

Findlay "You would expect the lawyersto get this right" as is sale of a "major Scottish institution"

Continues "Was anyone seriouslyexpecting Mr Whyte to turn up with £20m in a suitcase"

McGill agrees that in terms of the SharePurchase Agreement the word "third party" could be singular or plural

Findlay to McGill "Why on earth wouldyou sign a Share Purchase Agreement you could drive a coach and horsesthrough?"

McGill Says he knew about third partyfunding for working capital.

Findlay asks does the agreement limit thirdparty funding to working capital McGill, 'No it does not"

Findlay on £20m investment "What'spoint of putting that in..is just PR window dressing" McGill "you maycall it that Findlay "I just did"

Findlay on £5m investment "Were onearth was £5m going to get them in the Champions League.."Wouldn't havegot them Messi's left foot"

McGill "Was more than Murray groupcould put in" Findlay "Exactly" McGill "We found nobenefactor"

If Murray Group had carried on runningRangers would not have been investment McGill says

Findlay returns to small tax case, McGillsays Share Purchase Agreement still gave Whyte right to appeal it. Findlay"no obligation"

Findlay notes Share Purchase Agreementguarantees £5m to be available to Rangers for players "Who was the ownerof Rangers?" Mr Whyte

Findlay a "Pointless undertaking"as Whyte as owner could just not ask for the money McGill "I hear what youare saying"

McGill Taking over the club and notinvesting would be "odd" Findlay "We are not interested in whatyou think is odd.."

Continues "What amateur drew this up?'

Findlay "Did none of your advisors notnotice this and say 'dont sign this" McGill "no"

McGill agrees there was a major"health and safety issue" at Ibrox. Cites problem with Public Addresssystem, £1.7m within 12 months

Findlay notes "your telling the newowner he can shut half the stadium and you can't do anything about it"

Findlay: "The obligations arequalified McGill "They are qualified by time" Findlay "Aroundhere we call that a qualification"

Findlay:"If there is a health andsafety issue that is something you have to address" yet agreement gives 12months for money to be released

McGill "we sold the club on the basishe had the £5m, he still had flexibility when to put funds in."

Court takes it's morning break

To quote Rabbie, what a parcel of rogues!

[Moulin Yarns]

And we are back up and running, can openerat the ready

Findlay opens by asking McGill aboutTicketus. He confirms he was aware of them and that Rangers had an arrangementwith the company

McGill says he spoke to someone at Ticketusin 2010, Martin Bain was person who dealt with them generally

McGill says he did write an email saying"The Whyte team would be mad not too look at Ticketus" adds onlyreferring to "working capital"

Document "Agreement in principle"Ticketus 28 Oct 2010 £20m to be borrowed to fund takeover Rangers,3 yearsseason ticket

Deal requires 45% of club's"inventory" of season tickets.

Findlay "There are Rangers supporterson every corner of the globe, albiet globes don't have corners"

Findlay says Ticketus employees would knowabout deal and purpose of it.

McGill shown handwritten note dated11/23/2010 (American style) By then Rangers Chairman Alistair Johnson re"Mike McGill conversation"

Continues re CW "concerns history ofwalking away from debt.RFC can't be pawn..nb Octopus £ maybe £15m attempt toborrow" (we don’t do ‘walking away ! J )

McGill now being shown email, 6 April 2011,from him to lawyer David Horn and David Murray. "Should be £30m in accounttomorrow"

McGill says doesn't recall email. Continues"Revenue will look at affordability" re big tax case

"Opinion required for CW's otherinvestors" McGill "I do not recall conversation but don't denyit"

Findlsy "you knew on 6 April Whyte hadother investors," asks if he investigated further? McGill "I don'trecall why I didn't do that"

Next document a handwritten note by DavidHorn, a Murray group lawyer, from Nov 2010

Note says in part "Octopus meetingdiscussing with CW re £15m possible facility"

McGill suggests may just be for"working capital" Findlay "What discussions had you had aboutworking capital at that time"? Doesn't recall

Findlay notes Johnson memo also mentions£15m "Just a coincidence?"

Findlay "You Sir David and others hada clear indication Whyte had other investors" McGill, "Yes"Findlay Ever aware of Octopus loan No

Findlay on £15m Johnson knew, Horn knewMcGill agrees Murray group knew via Horn Findlay "Why didn't you put it inShare Purchase Agreement?

Findlay "Did you ever ask the Whyteteam?" McGill "We didn't seek that clarification" Findlay didyou ever ask Octopus? "no we did not"

[Moulin Yarns]

McGill confirms agreement with bank thatthe metals business would "handed over" to David Murray with Lloyd'sstill holding a share

Findlay notes bank only agreed to look atmetals deal after Rangers was resolved

Next document note to takeover panel byMurray group re takeover. "payment of nominal sum and bank debt cleared,£9.5m funding to club"

Continues "problems in the past tryingto sell the club...bank debt to be repaid as part of Murray Grouprestructuring"

Findlay who received a bonus for sellingRangers ? McGill Bain £360,000 Horn £160,000 Before tax

McGill says Martin Bain had a long standingarrangement with Murray Group Findlay "Did he help with sale" McGill"Limited"

McGill says book value of Rangers at timeof sale for £1 was £70m. Stadium "not at market value but replacementvalue"

Findlay notes that there is no value to afootball stadium unless you have a team playing there

Findlay asks if there was any discussionabout the metals deal being reported to takeover panel? McGill says he was notinvolved

Findlay shows email, April 2011 highlightsneed for "immediate capital" for business to remain"viable" McGill, "things not getting easier"

Court adjourns for lunch Back at 2pm

[Iain G]

McGill confirms agreement with bank thatthe metals business would "handed over" to David Murray with Lloyd'sstill holding a share

Findlay notes bank only agreed to look atmetals deal after Rangers was resolved

Next document note to takeover panel byMurray group re takeover. "payment of nominal sum and bank debt cleared,£9.5m funding to club"

Continues "problems in the past tryingto sell the club...bank debt to be repaid as part of Murray Grouprestructuring"

Findlay who received a bonus for sellingRangers ? McGill Bain £360,000 Horn £160,000 Before tax

McGill says Martin Bain had a long standingarrangement with Murray Group Findlay "Did he help with sale" McGill"Limited"

McGill says book value of Rangers at timeof sale for £1 was £70m. Stadium "not at market value but replacementvalue"

Findlay notes that there is no value to afootball stadium unless you have a team playing there

Findlay asks if there was any discussionabout the metals deal being reported to takeover panel? McGill says he was notinvolved

Findlay shows email, April 2011 highlightsneed for "immediate capital" for business to remain"viable" McGill, "things not getting easier"

Court adjourns for lunch Back at 2pm

Reading this as it develops suggests to me that this is Murray trying to offload the blue elephant that is the football club and all of it's issues to the first patsy/fantasist that seemed to (who, on the surface at least looks respectable so they can say that they did due diligence) tick the boxes that they could dupe (we don't ask him too many hard questions in case he doesn't ask us any back!) so that he could get his hands back on the MIM business?

Or is that just the spin that Findlay is putting on it? :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Findlay notes Share Purchase Agreement guarantees £5m to be available to Rangers for players. "Who was the ownerof Rangers?" Mr Whyte.

Findlay: a "Pointless undertaking" as Whyte as owner could just not ask for the money. McGill: "I hear what you are saying"

Not asking yourself for money is very reminiscent of The Famous Diets' owing/borrowing money to/from yourself. And this was all well before the era of fake news and post-truth - Campbell Ogilvie was so far ahead of his time.

[Deansy]

Reading this as it develops suggests to me that this is Murray trying to offload the blue elephant that is the football club and all of it's issues to the first patsy/fantasist that seemed to (who, on the surface at least looks respectable so they can say that they did due diligence) tick the boxes that they could dupe (we don't ask him too many hard questions in case he doesn't ask us any back!) so that he could get his hands back on the MIM business?

Or is that just the spin that Findlay is putting on it? :greengrin

That's how I'm seeing it as well. I just wonder how our poor SMSM will be able to continue with the myth that their Lord & Master - knighted for his services to business - Sir David Murray was 'Duped'

[CraigHibee]

McGill confirms agreement with bank thatthe metals business would "handed over" to David Murray with Lloyd'sstill holding a share
/FONT]


looks to me like mr murray was only concerned about his own financial status, murray international was his baby, he had to bin "the rangers" to get murray metals back.... tut tut

[Moulin Yarns]

looks to me like mr murray was only concerned about his own financial status, murray international was his baby, he had to bin "the rangers" to get murray metals back.... tut tut

Indeed.

Afternoon session

Case continues with defence Advocate DonaldFindlay QC cross-examining Crown witness Michael McGill

Findlay opens by asking McGill about DaveKing and Murray Sports. McGill says King's company owned a stake in MurraySports

McGill says Murray Sports was"eliminated" in conjunction with King. Witness says can't recall ifthere was an issue between Murray and King

McGill shown email from King 11 Jan 2011 toHorn "this sounds irregular to me..David Murray is aware I haveconcerns"

Continues "There may also be taxissues" says has not been consulted "Metlika shares frozen"

Horn email on Dave King: "The lion hasawoken from its slumber" McGill replied he recalls receiving the email

McGill says Dave King had a"contractual right" to sit on the Rangers board.

Court now being shown a report"removal of RFC directors" created by Murray Lawyer Horn in 2010

Continues "This procedure could beused for the removal of Dave King and Paul Murray"

Findlay "was there a desire to removeMr King" McGill agrees "thought was given to it"

Email Dave King to David Horn, May 2011"Has the Murray group informed ' Craig Whyte of their undertaking to keepme on the board?"

Horn to McGill, "No obligation"to keep King on Board. Responds to King by email telling him this

McGill agrees King was "not overlyhappy about all this"

Findlay says he is on his "finalchapter"

Email: McGill to Horn, January 2011"Are we concerned if purchaser increases debt?...not really this would beworking capital"

McGill says debt fluctuated over the courseof the season

to be continued....

[Moulin Yarns]

Findlay: "The Independent boardcommittee had no power to block the deal?" McGill, yes, adds they were"unhelpful" at times

Email" the process would now slowdown..the battle lines are being drawn" discusses "clearing out theboard" McGill, "last resort"

Findlay "So you were consideringit"? McGill accepts was "possible"

McGill email "While we are all stillstriving to find a benefactor with unlimited funds to take the clubforward...this has not happened"

Findlay "The club was not beingactively marketed as there was no-one to market it to?" McGill"Yes"

Email 27 March 2011, McGill to Johnson"Debt to be converted to equity with no value..would allow club to borrowas no debt"

McGill email "We need to ensure thepurchaser doesnt get any surprises..I think we need to front up on the smalltax case"

McGill says the case had only recently wentfrom a potential liability and had not "crystallised" until recentlyDated 17 March 2011

Findlay "Murray was anxious that whenclub sold nothing bad would happen that would reflect badly" McGill"Yes"

McGill agrees looked to see where thingscould go wrong Shown handwritten note from Horn the lawyer. Discussion ofseason ticket marketing

Continues: The aim of engaging withIndependent committee is for PR reasons"

Findlay "The Independent committeeonly have to be on board for PR reasons?" McGill says was encouragingWhyte to engage

Email to witness from Lawyers, 20 April2011. "Independent committee anxious to find out no benefits to Murraythey didn't know about"

McGill says "That may relate to thedemerger" (of the metals business)

McGill confirms agreement​ between Lloydsand Murray over metals business pre-dated Craig Whyte bid (think this was denied earlier?)

Email says Lloyds worried about thisbecoming public as could lead to bad publicity,

McGill says Murray metals split into three,Murray got a section, another steel group took a part, rest wound down

Court takes a break

[Moulin Yarns]

Proceedings resume

Donald Findlay QC asks McGill if demergerof Murray metals was "connected with the sale of Rangers FootballClub?" Reply "yes"

December 2009 memo re "ProjectCharlotte" McGill says is a "teaser document" over sale ofRangers

Says "club has a sustainable businessplan to retain its competitiveness" Findlay "is this true"McGill "You could debate competitiveness"

McGill "Is a marketing document asmuch as anything else."

Document goes on to say Rangers not"reliant on Champions League revenue" Findlay "Hmm"

Continues "no capital spendingrequired" McGill repeats is a "marketing document"

Findlay "What is the point of puttingsomething in a document that isn't true" McGill "It's a marketingdocument"

Findlay "That's like saying the houseneeds an extension but you'll get it without spending money" (I was thinking of a car analogy based onemmissions = VW)

Letter from Bank of Scotland to Rangersfrom 2009, mentions £34m credit facility agreed in 2004.

Document goes on to say bank limited anyborrowing from Ticketus over £5m and must be repaid by June

Findlay says in any deal a time comes whenit should be set down in a "clear and unambiguous" way

McGill agrees the Share Purchase Agreement"is the bargain"

Findlay "the owner wanted to preservehis legacy...was his genuine desire..but no realistic buyer had camealong" Whyte "only show in town"

McGill "The only realistic show"

Horn Email "Despite process I am notsure Whyte is right for legacy..isn't it a shame there wasn't anyone else."

Continues that Murray had texted back"funny you should say that" suggests Martin Bain use "insiderinformation" for his own bid

Mail is dated 14 April 2011

Findlay says Bain never came forward with abid, "but got an pay benefit" Douglas Park also approached

Email 21 April 2011, discussed sale ofEdmiston house to "Acorn" McGill says may have been code name

McGill replies: ""Given that theuseless twits dont have the funds it appears somewhat academic"

Findlay "Murray was determined to sellRangers" McGill "no" Findlay "You sold the club to uselesstwits with no funds" Ends





LOL J :greengrin







Advocate Depute rises to re-examine thewitness

[Moulin Yarns]

AD "What this case is about is theacquisition of the club by Mr Whyte" McGill says aim of sale was to clearbank debt and secure investment

McGill: "We were not interested inselling the club based on an IOU"

Advocate Depute notes Share PurchaseAgreement says purchaser must have funds "immediately available"McGill agrees

Advocate Depute shows agreement betweenTicketus and Whyte to sell £20m worth of season tickets, notes in previousseason RFC borrowed £8m

Agreement "Craig Whyte has private,but publically verifiable wealth" No release of funds until sharespurchased

McGill says season tickets were an asset ofthe club, and could only be sold by the owner.

McGill says Ticketus deal"inconsistent" with Share Purchase Agreement. Would also need boardapproval

McGill says you cannot use assets you donot own or control to purchase shares

McGill says he did not expect Whyte toarrive with a suitcase full of cash but expected him to have the funds

McGill says relied on Solicitorsundertaking that money laundering checks had been carried out on Whyte

McGill says Ticketus funds were only usedfor short term capital needs, would not have agreed to sale if he knew scale ofWhyte's borrowing

Advocate Depute Deal involved "Not asingle penny of Whyte's personal funds" McGill denies "he didn'tcare" about club

Advocate Depute ends, Lady Stacey tellswitness he can leave the court tells jury No sitting on Friday. Court adjourns

[CropleyWasGod]

AD "What this case is about is theacquisition of the club by Mr Whyte" McGill says aim of sale was to clearbank debt and secure investment

McGill: "We were not interested inselling the club based on an IOU"

Advocate Depute notes Share PurchaseAgreement says purchaser must have funds "immediately available"McGill agrees

Advocate Depute shows agreement betweenTicketus and Whyte to sell £20m worth of season tickets, notes in previousseason RFC borrowed £8m

Agreement "Craig Whyte has private,but publically verifiable wealth" No release of funds until sharespurchased

McGill says season tickets were an asset ofthe club, and could only be sold by the owner.

McGill says Ticketus deal"inconsistent" with Share Purchase Agreement. Would also need boardapproval

McGill says you cannot use assets you donot own or control to purchase shares

McGill says he did not expect Whyte toarrive with a suitcase full of cash but expected him to have the funds

McGill says relied on Solicitorsundertaking that money laundering checks had been carried out on Whyte

McGill says Ticketus funds were only usedfor short term capital needs, would not have agreed to sale if he knew scale ofWhyte's borrowing

Advocate Depute Deal involved "Not asingle penny of Whyte's personal funds" McGill denies "he didn'tcare" about club

Advocate Depute ends, Lady Stacey tellswitness he can leave the court tells jury No sitting on Friday. Court adjourns



Thanks for the updates :aok:

Despite Findlay's smoke-blowing exercise, this particular exchange is actually what the case is about.

[Moulin Yarns]

Thanks for the updates :aok:

Despite Findlay's smoke-blowing exercise, this particular exchange is actually what the case is about.

It is indeed about how Whyte 'bought' the football club, but I think something more might come out of it as the defence digs at the prosecution witnesses. No?

[CropleyWasGod]

It is indeed about how Whyte 'bought' the football club, but I think something more might come out of it as the defence digs at the prosecution witnesses. No?

Yeah, hopefully.....

I'm still thinking that the Duff & Phelps guys (and Gary Withey) will be the most interesting witnesses. They'll likely have the smoking gun to bring CW down, but DF will hammer them for their part in it all... and that's where we might see some popcorn stuff. :greengrin

[Jack Hackett]

It is indeed about how Whyte 'bought' the football club, but I think something more might come out of it as the defence digs at the prosecution witnesses. No?

:pray:

... but not holding breath.

Updates appreciated :aok:

[Seveno]

Why can't this be on Netflix?

[PatHead]

Murray not coming out of this well. Still won't matter to man though.

[Ozyhibby]

So far it's only been witnesses for the prosecution. The real fun might come when the witnesses for the defence are called.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[seanshow]

"David Murray sacrificed Rangers to save his own skin!" expect to see headlines like this in all your local newspapers























.............possibly, If you live in Vanuatu :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Proceedings resume, the Advocate Deputesays agreement has been reached on a new "joint minute"
A "joint minute of agreement"contains facts agreed by both sides as proved, these are read out so evidencedoes not need to be called
Joint minute now being read out, consistsof a list of financial transactions, ie £24m transferred to Whyte's company byTicketus etc

(Might shorten proceedings)



Crown now calls next witness, Gary Withey

[Iain G]

Proceedings resume, the Advocate Deputesays agreement has been reached on a new "joint minute"
A "joint minute of agreement"contains facts agreed by both sides as proved, these are read out so evidencedoes not need to be called
Joint minute now being read out, consistsof a list of financial transactions, ie £24m transferred to Whyte's company byTicketus etc

(Might shorten proceedings)



Crown now calls next witness, Gary Withey



Who is this Gary Withey character?

[Moulin Yarns]

Who is this Gary Withey character?

Ex solicitor, Collyer Bristow. Represented Whyte in the 'purchase' of SEVCO

[CropleyWasGod]

Who is this Gary Withey character?

Allegedly one of the co-conspirators. Was originally charged, but the charges were dropped.

One wonders if he has been flipped. :cb

[Moulin Yarns]

Allegedly one of the co-conspirators. Was originally charged, but the charges were dropped.

One wonders if he has been flipped. :cb

Cheers, CWG, might put some answers in context :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Withey says he was introduced to Whyte inlate summer in 2010 by a long term client, "because Craig Whyte waslooking to do deals"

Withey, "I'm not sure where we aregoing, what do you want me to say?"

Withey says there was an awards dinner inLondon at which he could invite 10 guests. Invited Craig Whyte

Advocate Depute, "What happened afterthe dinner" Withey "nothing" He later found out Whyte's plan forRangers and phoned offering services

Withey says Whyte was "reallyvague" about the takeover during first phone call. Called him again afterholiday in Majorca.

Withey "football Clubs are always anightmare, you never know what is there until you start picking away"

Withey says there was confusion in October2010 over which legal firm was handling the takeover for Whyte.

Says he called Whyte to as "What wasgoing on, I thought I was handling this deal"

Withey says he was told to "backoff" by another company, "All Swains" They told him "justdo your little bit" (All Swains, did they have a hit with “Never ever”)

Withey says a few weeks later All Swains"walked away" from the deal and Colloyer Bristow where theninstructed to act for Whyte

Advocate Depute to Withey, "What didyou do?" Lady Stacey "That's a colossal question" asks him tobreak it up into sections

Withey: "I'm not trying to be dim, butI don't know what you are asking me." Agrees he helped negotiate the SharePurchase Agreement.

Withey says wasn't happy that Craig Whyte​had set up a company in Guernsey, didn't like "offshore tax havens"used UK company instead

Withey says "many many people wereworking on this transaction" says he can't pronounce the second name ofone

Withey says he had no information on howdeal was to be financed Total was "28 million ish"

Withey was a "blue book takeover"as before computers came in a blue book. Lady Stacey thanks witness"That's the sort of detail we need"

Withey accuses Advocate Depute of being"too simplistic" Donald Findlay objects to line of questioning onsame grounds, says AD is confusing

Last Stacey tells AD this is not a Scottishconveyancing case,

Withey says people in the city thoughtWhyte had funding , at one point he thought he was part of Whyte and Mackay(LOL)

Withey insists he was not instructed byWhyte but by the company Wavetower. Agrees Whyte was sole-shareholder and itwas him he spoke to

[

[Moulin Yarns]

Withey asked about "proof offunds" letter if his name was on a letter "you should look at theletter" says he didn't even draft it

AD "It was signed by you" Withey"I saw it as a comfort letter" Asks to see the letter, AD says he iscoming to it

Withey says a "comfort letter givesthe other party a degree of comfort" AD "Can you expand onthat?"

Withey says proof of funds can only comefrom a corporate adviser adds "anyone can write a comfort letter"

Court now being shown "letter offunding availability" signed by Merchant Capital ltd Withey says he hasnever seen this

Letter says £33m available for funding.Withey says he saw a later version of this letter and emailed

Email from Withey to Dundas Wilson 17 Oct2010 shown. Says £33m funds available at Liberty Capital

Was also copied into Mike McGill at MurrayGroup

Says funding comes from a "UKfinancial group"

Findlay objects and asks to address judgeon a matter of law. Witness and jury leave court

For those who don't know, we are notallowed to tweet what happens when jury not present


to be continued

[Moulin Yarns]

Advocate Depute continues his examinationin chief of Crown witness Gary Withey

AD begins by showing the court a letter onColloyer Bristow headed paper. Witness says he doesn't recall sending butagrees is his letter

Dated 21 Oct 2010, headed ProjectCharlotte. Was sent to solicitors representing Murray

Letter says Withey would be forming a"Newco" to carry through the transaction

Withey confirms "Newco" would beWavetower, a "bidding vehicle" for the proposed transaction.

Withey says letter was an expression ofinterest "we only want to have a look under the bonnet"

Continues Andrew Ellis Chris Akers andCraig Whyte directors of Newco Withey says he was only acting as a"conduit"

Continues "Liberty Capital has £33m tocontinue transaction"

Withey says deal had to be keptconfidential so as not to drive up share price "We had to keep ittight"

AD asks about "insider dealing"Lady Stacey intervenes asking "do we really need to know about this?"AD moves on.

Withey says position on offer was"slightly odd" due to Rangers being a listed company.

Another letter shown on court screens,Withey confirms is his signature and was sent to Murray 8 Nov 2010

In part "Funds are available tocomplete the transaction" AD "Was that truthful" "Shouldsay funds will be available" AD "But it doesn't"

AD "Was it true" Withey "Itwas true we had a letter saying that" Were you personally satisfied Yes,by the letter

Letter now goes on to details of who isrepresenting which company in the proposed transaction

[Moulin Yarns]

Withey confirms that, at this point, theestimated cost of the takeover would be £33m "That was what would beavailable"

Withey agrees repayment of money owed to thebank was a "key element" of the takeover deal.

Withey says he did believe Whyte had thefunds or he wouldn't have said so in the letter adds: "I don't lie"

Letter "This cash is immediatelyavailable..nothing to prevent release of funds.."

"none of the finance provided will besecured against the assets of target" (Rangers)

Witness given copy of 27 page SharePurchase Agreement. Says deal was "almost over-negotiated" adds he"didn't trust" Murray Group

Adds there was a lot of discussion aboutclub going into administration, which he had never seen in an agreement before

AD shows clause in Share Purchase Agreementwhich states funds "immediately available" Withey says ColloyerBristow held the funds

AD "Were the immediately available tosettle on the Friday?" Withey "Subject to completion" came from"Ticketus, Merchant and some pension"

AD "Was money in a client account or adeposit account?" Withey: "At the time I thought they were thesame" AD "You were a partner"

AD "This was not money you could useon the 6th May" Withey "I believed I could"

AD "who could draw on the money priorto 6 May?" Withey, "No-one" AD "Surely Ticketuscould?" Withey: "Possibly"

Withey "The Ticketus contracts weremostly dealt with by my assistant"

AD "The SPA says funds have to beimmediately available' Withey "no it's not, if you read it again sayssubject to completion"

Adds "All there would to be would be aquick board meeting would take a scintilla of time"


Court rises for lunch, witness asked toreturn at 2pm

[CropleyWasGod]

Withey confirms that, at this point, theestimated cost of the takeover would be £33m "That was what would beavailable"

Withey agrees repayment of money owed to thebank was a "key element" of the takeover deal.

Withey says he did believe Whyte had thefunds or he wouldn't have said so in the letter adds: "I don't lie"

Letter "This cash is immediatelyavailable..nothing to prevent release of funds.."

"none of the finance provided will besecured against the assets of target" (Rangers)

Witness given copy of 27 page SharePurchase Agreement. Says deal was "almost over-negotiated" adds he"didn't trust" Murray Group

Adds there was a lot of discussion aboutclub going into administration, which he had never seen in an agreement before

AD shows clause in Share Purchase Agreementwhich states funds "immediately available" Withey says ColloyerBristow held the funds

AD "Were the immediately available tosettle on the Friday?" Withey "Subject to completion" came from"Ticketus, Merchant and some pension"

AD "Was money in a client account or adeposit account?" Withey: "At the time I thought they were thesame" AD "You were a partner"

AD "This was not money you could useon the 6th May" Withey "I believed I could"

AD "who could draw on the money priorto 6 May?" Withey, "No-one" AD "Surely Ticketuscould?" Withey: "Possibly"

Withey "The Ticketus contracts weremostly dealt with by my assistant"

AD "The SPA says funds have to beimmediately available' Withey "no it's not, if you read it again sayssubject to completion"

Adds "All there would to be would be aquick board meeting would take a scintilla of time"


Court rises for lunch, witness asked toreturn at 2pm

Oh, **** off. There's no need for lunch. Get on with it.

So...GW knew that some of the money came from Ticketus. Go for him, Donald.:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Oh, **** off. There's no need for lunch. Get on with it.

So...GW knew that some of the money came from Ticketus. Go for him, Donald.:greengrin


Thank goodness for lunch, I can get some work done :wink:

Yes seems a bit strange that one. It is much more fun when the Donald is cross examining :agree:

[Moulin Yarns]

Afternoon

The Advocate Depute, Alex Prentice QCbegins the afternoon by showing the court a "deposit account mandate"21 April 2011

Asks bank to open an account called"project Charlotte"

Authorised signatories for Colloyer Bristowis Gary Withey and Paul Sillis,

Bank is C Hoare and Co

Withey confirms account is "for theTicketus money"

Withey confirms both he and Ticketus'lawyers would have to agree before funds taken from account​

Next document, email from James Earl(Ticketus lawyer) to Withey CC'd to Craig Whyte. 9 May 2011,l. AuthorisesWithey to "use funds"

Advocate Depute notes that before this 9May email funds were not available to be used. Withey agrees

Court now being shown "agreement forsale and purchase of season tickets" between RFC "Ticketus LLP"and "Ticketus 2 LLP"

Agreement lists all season tickets to besold by stand and seat number. Signed by Paul Latham of Ticketus and CraigWhyte.

Advocate Depute notes Whyte had noauthority over the season ticket money until takeover complete. Lady Stacey"Season tickets"

Advocate Depute now going through detailsof season ticket sale document. Mr Findlay objects only 45% of season ticketsfor sale.

Lady Stacey says clear only some of seasontickets. Withey "they already had some anyway" AD "That's aseparate matter"

AD, money could only be released aftertakeover? Withey: "Not quite, deal was signed earlier' AD but only clubowner could sell tickets

Findlay objects, notes this is a 275 pagedocument but "execution pages are undated"

AD agrees to rephrase the question.

AD notes date is 9 May asks is that rightLady Stacey "That's a bit unfair on the witness" notes he had not hadopportunity to read document

Document is dated 9 May on front cover butno date on Craig Whyte signature.

Withey asked if he was holding the money,Responds "is that a question for me?" Confirms was held in jointaccount.

AD asks about other sources of funds"Merchant Capital and Jerome pensions" Withey replies Can't recall ifhe held the Merchant money

Merchant contributed £1m to takeover courttold


Findlay raises an objection, jury andwitness leave the court

[Moulin Yarns]

Advocate Depute resumes questioning of GaryWithey. Asks about £1m from Merchant Turnaround. Withey says can't recallconditions

AD "You have a million pounds, whatwere you going to do with it?" Withey "Can't recall conditions"

AD "Who were Merchant TurnaroundWithey "Part of the Merchant Group" AD "what happened to themoney?" Withey "It just sat there"

AD "Did you know of any connectionbetween Whyte and Merchant ?" Withey "At the time no' found out laterhe had been company secretary

Withey "All I recall is being told themoney would arrive and it arrived"

Withey, "Merchant were not myclient" on ownership of the £1m "I don't know whose money itwas"

AD "Who would you take instructionsfrom on what to do with the money" Withey "Craig Whyte" AD: Wasit still there in December? "Don't know"

AD shows letter to Merchant Turnaround,witness says it looks like his signature but doesn't think he wrote it as"too clumsy"

AD "Who would have signed it otherthan you?" Withey "I'm not 100% certain that's my signature"

Withey agrees letter is accurate in partswhile still not accepting he wrote it

AD "Did you cause that to betyped" Withey "I don't recall it, I wouldn't start a [bullet] pointwith a lower case t"

AD "is it your letter or not?"Withey "I can't be sure" AD notes his initial are on it

Lady Stacey notes reference on this letteris in a different form from others shown to the court

Withey "It just seems odd to ask meabout something that may not be mine" AD moves on

AD "on 7 April £2.7m received from apension company, Jerome" Withey says he remembers the money but can'trecall if put in client account

Withey, "I'm not trying to be evasive'AD "When were you told you were going to get the money?" Withey:"Before

AD: Any conditions on the money Withey"can I refer to a precognition I made" AD "No" " Ifyou'd asked me two days ago answer would be no"

AD "You've lost me there"

Withey "I accept now there wereconditions" AD "Were you aware at the time" Withey "Notsure when conditions were attached"

AD "What happened to the money?"Withey "It just sat there, I think for over a year"

Withey mentions "rollover" AD"What does that means" Withey thinks something to do with previousTicketus deal not being repaid.

Withey "It's terribly complicated butthe money went out then came right back in"

Withey "£6m had to be repaid toOctopus, was an odd arrangement"

Withey "So much was happening with thedeal I took my eye off it."

Withey "I was slightly surprised theycould influence a pension fund" Didn't realise it was a pension fund untilmuch later


Findlay objects to question as"hearsay" judge agrees

Withey "I only recalled it two daysago so my recollection is two days old"

[Moulin Yarns]

Withey "Is that not the same questionjust asked in a different way" Lady Stacey "Can you help usout?"

AD shows court an email from Withey to asolicitor representing Jerome pensions Reads in part "at this moment intime no monies can be sent


Donald Findlay rises to object to thedocument, Lady Stacey sends jury home "Experience tells me this is goingto take more than 5 mins.








If I had realised that woud happen I wouldn’t have sent theafternoon in two blocks :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Withey "Is that not the same questionjust asked in a different way" Lady Stacey "Can you help usout?"

AD shows court an email from Withey to asolicitor representing Jerome pensions Reads in part "at this moment intime no monies can be sent


Donald Findlay rises to object to thedocument, Lady Stacey sends jury home "Experience tells me this is goingto take more than 5 mins.








If I had realised that woud happen I wouldn’t have sent theafternoon in two blocks :greengrin



As ever, thanks for the updates.

My reading (and, without being in the Court, it's difficult to know) is that the AD is being harder on GW than he has been on the earlier witnesses. Maybe because, in different circumstances, GW himself would have been in the dock.... and therefore has some of the evidence to sink CW.

DF's cross-examination is going to be fun.

[Moulin Yarns]

As ever, thanks for the updates.

My reading (and, without being in the Court, it's difficult to know) is that the AD is being harder on GW than he has been on the earlier witnesses. Maybe because, in different circumstances, GW himself would have been in the dock.... and therefore has some of the evidence to sink CW.

DF's cross-examination is going to be fun.

Agreed, I have not always bothered with the AD questioning, but this felt different. Still a lot of memory loss though. I particularly like the "I don't remember signing, it doesn't look like my signature" line from GW. What, you don't read the papers before you sign them, surely that is what you are paid for!!

[Ozyhibby]

https://thecelticblog.com/2017/05/blogs/regan-whyte-and-resolution-12-let-justice-be-done-though-the-heavens-fall/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Catch22]

Advocate deputy A(lex) Prentice. Small chuckle at that

[Moulin Yarns]

No live tweeting of Craig Whyte trialtoday.

For legal reasons can't comment on why nolive tweets Will post updates during breaks




Won't affect us to much as that is what I've been doing anyway.

[Hibrandenburg]

No live tweeting of Craig Whyte trialtoday.

For legal reasons can't comment on why nolive tweets Will post updates during breaks




Won't affect us to much as that is what I've been doing anyway.




Security measures?????

[jacomo]

https://thecelticblog.com/2017/05/blogs/regan-whyte-and-resolution-12-let-justice-be-done-though-the-heavens-fall/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Some Celtc minded people have disappeared down the Resolution 12 rabbit hole. I've followed this quite closely and yet I am struggling to make sense of this latest blog.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Advocate Depute is questioning formerlawyer Gary Withey

Withey: "I thought of something oddlast night can I explain

AD: let's stick to the traditionalstructure, I ask the questions and you answer"

AD Asks about Jerome group "retirementbenefits plan"

Withey email shown to court "the loanhas been to the club" £2,925,000.

Withey: "The surprising thing is thatthe money arrived in the first place

I can't think of any deal where the moneyarrived before the legal documents"

Advocate Depute "Did you anticipatemoney was going to have to be paid to the seller?" Withey "It was apound"

AD "Are there such things assolicitors account rules?" Withey: "Yes, but ask me if I've ever readthem?"

AD "Did you ever receive writteninstructions to move the money, think carefully you are under oath" Withey"I'm not sure"

AD "Did you know of any connectionbetween Mr Whyte and the Jerome group?

Withey says he had never heard of theJerome group, adds "Mr Whyte had significant power..I'd never seen thisbefore"

Withey asked about engaging with Scottishlaw, replies "It's like another language"

Withey on dealing with Murray Group"They were concerned, didn't want to suffer embarrassment

Says was unusual Mike McGill was writingdirectly to him rather than through his lawyer.

Adds "He wanted comfort that thiswouldn't turn into an embarrassing mess for everyone"

Withey on Murray "They never asked whowas financing the deal, they didn't seem to care

Continues: "Only deal I've ever workedon where the vendor was pushing so hard, they were desperate to get the dealover the line"

AD asks if any mention of Ticketus Withey "The answer is no but there is abigger story behind it, but you ask the questions"

Withey: "My personal view is that the Ticketus money was known about."

Withey "I was told by Mr Whyte not to show the Ticketus money...but theydidn't ask."

Court takes morning break

(My bold for emphasis)

[CropleyWasGod]

The Advocate Depute is questioning formerlawyer Gary Withey

Withey: "I thought of something oddlast night can I explain

AD: let's stick to the traditionalstructure, I ask the questions and you answer"

AD Asks about Jerome group "retirementbenefits plan"

Withey email shown to court "the loanhas been to the club" £2,925,000.

Withey: "The surprising thing is thatthe money arrived in the first place

I can't think of any deal where the moneyarrived before the legal documents"

Advocate Depute "Did you anticipatemoney was going to have to be paid to the seller?" Withey "It was apound"

AD "Are there such things assolicitors account rules?" Withey: "Yes, but ask me if I've ever readthem?"

AD "Did you ever receive writteninstructions to move the money, think carefully you are under oath" Withey"I'm not sure"

AD "Did you know of any connectionbetween Mr Whyte and the Jerome group?

Withey says he had never heard of theJerome group, adds "Mr Whyte had significant power..I'd never seen thisbefore"

Withey asked about engaging with Scottishlaw, replies "It's like another language"

Withey on dealing with Murray Group"They were concerned, didn't want to suffer embarrassment

Says was unusual Mike McGill was writingdirectly to him rather than through his lawyer.

Adds "He wanted comfort that thiswouldn't turn into an embarrassing mess for everyone"

Withey on Murray "They never asked whowas financing the deal, they didn't seem to care

Continues: "Only deal I've ever workedon where the vendor was pushing so hard, they were desperate to get the dealover the line"

AD asks if any mention of Ticketus Withey "The answer is no but there is abigger story behind it, but you ask the questions"

Withey: "My personal view is that the Ticketus money was known about."

Withey "I was told by Mr Whyte not to show the Ticketus money...but theydidn't ask."

Court takes morning break

(My bold for emphasis)




He's never read the Solicitors' Accounts Rules?

:rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

He's never read the Solicitors' Accounts Rules?

:rolleyes:

Maybe there's a reason he is an Ex solicitor :wink:

[alfie]

No live tweeting of Craig Whyte trialtoday.

For legal reasons can't comment on why nolive tweets Will post updates during breaks




Won't affect us to much as that is what I've been doing anyway.




Whatever the reason they are twitchy around the high court today, during my lunchtime stroll there were the usual 2 coppers standing outside and there was a paparazzi car parked opposite, there were 3 cop cars milling around and a bike cop parked on the corner of Clyde St facing the wrong way, the polis helicopter has being doing circuits in the area for no apparent reason, as well as the usual mounties going for a stroll around Glasgow Green.

I think I almost bumped into CW walking back to court, but he was on his own so I assume it wasnt him, as he wouldnt be out walking the streets of the weej on his own for fear of a lynching.