Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[SurferRosa]

Anyone have any idea what this is about?
(it was posted 3 pages ago but Matty has been asking questions since :greengrin)

Personally, i`m hoping it`s Duff and Phelps stood before a judge who says " you are the most incompetent, farcical excuse for administrators i`ve ever seen in all my years on the bench. In fact, you should never be allowed to administer cough medicine to a child. Get out of my sight....oh, and by the way.....yer out, fired, emptied. HMRC will now appoint an administrator to sort this mess out. Now sod off. "

That`s what i like to think it will be about.....................but i wont hold my breath.

[CropleyWasGod]

Personally, i`m hoping it`s Duff and Phelps stood before a judge who says " you are the most incompetent, farcical excuse for administrators i`ve ever seen in all my years on the bench. In fact, you should never be allowed to administer cough medicine to a child. Get out of my sight....oh, and by the way.....yer out, fired, emptied. HMRC will now appoint an administrator to sort this mess out. Now sod off. "

That`s what i like to think it will be about.....................but i wont hold my breath.

How do you think any other administrators would have done it differently?

[Brando7]

Personally, i`m hoping it`s Duff and Phelps stood before a judge who says " you are the most incompetent, farcical excuse for administrators i`ve ever seen in all my years on the bench. In fact, you should never be allowed to administer cough medicine to a child. Get out of my sight....oh, and by the way.....yer out, fired, emptied. HMRC will now appoint an administrator to sort this mess out. Now sod off. "

That`s what i like to think it will be about.....................but i wont hold my breath.

Now that would truly make my day :greengrin

[Brando7]

How do you think any other administrators would have done it differently?

administrators are there to protect the creditor yes?

Forget Rangers Football Club they are a buisness like the tens of thousands up n down the country who are in a financial mess, they owe over £100million + in debts and some yank coms n offers £11Million to pay the creditors 5p in the £ lets say so liquidate the buisness and sell ll assets which i'm sure would make more pennis in the £ than the yank is offering? YES/NO?

On a footballing front I mean come on by selling McGregor,Davis & Naismith would get you £10million NO?

[ballengeich]

I don't know whether today's announcement makes things quite as straightforward for the Huns as some think, but it looks like Rangers will be in the SPL again next season. That was always probable and I can understand the financial reasons for it, even if I don't like them.

What I would find unforgiveable would be if the Rangers Newco was voted back into the SPL without any attempt to amend future voting structures and distribution of tv and other income. I hope that the Monday meeting will take steps to reform the constitution of the SPL so that the Bigot Bros can't run it exclusively for their own benefit in future. The opportunity is there. Will the clubs take it? It would do more good in the long term than placing Rangers in division 3 and allowing them to return to an unreformed existing structure in three years.

[CropleyWasGod]

administrators are there to protect the creditor yes?

Forget Rangers Football Club they are a buisness like the tens of thousands up n down the country who are in a financial mess, they owe over £100million + in debts and some yank coms n offers £11Million to pay the creditors 5p in the £ lets say so liquidate the buisness and sell ll assets which i'm sure would make more pennis in the £ than the yank is offering? YES/NO?

On a footballing front I mean come on by selling McGregor,Davis & Naismith would get you £10million NO?

You wouldn't get that money for those players now. Not when everyone knows what state RFC are in, and how little is left on their contracts.

It's also debatable about the marketability of the properties. But that's not the admins fault. Nobody else has bid for them yet.

[SurferRosa]

How do you think any other administrators would have done it differently?

I`m no expert, i can only base my opinion on what i hear and read.
I`ve read this...from Glenn Gibbons of the Scotsman..

" the representatives of Duff & Phelps, now widely regarded as the most incompetent administrators ever to be charged with righting a listing football club.

the administrators have, since their arrival, proved about as helpful as gatecrashers. Consultation with an array of qualified people in the financial and legal professions has confirmed that none has ever heard of a period of administration that has not produced a single redundancy.What it has brought is further haemorrhaging, to the tune of £2.5 million in the first two months of the Duff & Phelps stewardship. Now the administrators, who seem not to have complied with even one of their own “final and binding” deadlines since they took the wheel on 14 February,"



and heard this..Sportsound 4 May...the interview given by D&P at the top of the show. I cant find a link to it unfortunately. Nowhere is a good deal for creditors mentioned, only the best deal for RFC. I thought creditors came before the failing business..:dunno:
Just my opinion of course.

[CropleyWasGod]

I`m no expert, i can only base my opinion on what i hear and read.
I`ve read this...from Glenn Gibbons of the Scotsman..

" the representatives of Duff & Phelps, now widely regarded as the most incompetent administrators ever to be charged with righting a listing football club.

the administrators have, since their arrival, proved about as helpful as gatecrashers. Consultation with an array of qualified people in the financial and legal professions has confirmed that none has ever heard of a period of administration that has not produced a single redundancy.What it has brought is further haemorrhaging, to the tune of £2.5 million in the first two months of the Duff & Phelps stewardship. Now the administrators, who seem not to have complied with even one of their own “final and binding” deadlines since they took the wheel on 14 February,"



and heard this..Sportsound 4 May...the interview given by D&P at the top of the show. I cant find a link to it unfortunately. Nowhere is a good deal for creditors mentioned, only the best deal for RFC. I thought creditors came before the failing business..:dunno:
Just my opinion of course.




I hear you.

However, I also hear (in the media, mainly) an awful lot of Captain Hindsights talking. Glenn Gibbons, that well-respected financial journalist for one. :greengrin That bugs the hell out of me.

About 180 pages ago, I reckoned that liquidation would prove the best deal for creditors. The Millar deal, which is effectively liquidation, may yet prove me right. However, D&P were right IMO to pursue a CVA, based on a continuing RFC with a full squad of players, as the first option.... to do otherwise would have been negligent. While they are not entirely blameless, the fact that one was not achieved was mainly down to other factors.

For the avoidance of doubt by the way, Gordon Smith and another guy were made redundant. :greengrin

[ehf]

[/U][/B]


That's the question I would like answered !
If this is true it adds up to a total " whitewash" and the demise of justice, fairness and integrity in Scottish football.
It is almost a cheats charter !
The big question still is what part are HMR&C going to play in the final chapter ?
As I have posted before a friend is a senior official in that organisation , and while he refuses point blank to discuss RFC debt , he makes the point that after the Harry Redknapp/Portsmouth fiasco HMR&C will not be " caught out a second time " !!!
Do UEFA have any part to play in what " punishment" is dealt out to RFC ?
As for Mr Miller . Is he the true " White Knight in Shining Armour " ? If what we read tonight is correct his sporting business track record is somewhat dodgy to say the least.
There is also the problem with loss of European football revenue to take into consideration. I understand a sizeable figure was added to the
" estimated income" every season based on participation in group stages .

I for one think there is a lot more to happen /come out of this before season 2012/13 K.O :greengrin :rolleyes:

I'm hearing that HMRC know that Oldco/Any New owner are a dead duck and are planning on pursuing SDM/CW/other RRC directors personally for wrongful/fraudulent trading under the Insolvency Act, pursunat to which they could be made personally liable for RFC's debts. Good for the taxpayer if they succeed but would be far better if they blocked this cheat's charter.

[Brando7]

You wouldn't get that money for those players now. Not when everyone knows what state RFC are in, and how little is left on their contracts.

It's also debatable about the marketability of the properties. But that's not the admins fault. Nobody else has bid for them yet.

all assets through liqudation would generate more money no? the squad itself be worth £11million no? just to name a few

Allan McGregor contracted to 2017 £2.5m
Dorin Goian contracted to 2014 £0.5m
Kirk Broadfoot contracted to 2017 £0.5m
Lee McCulloch contracted to 2013 £0.5m
Maurice Edu contracted to 2013 £0.5m
Steven Davis contracted to 2016 £2.5m
John Fleck contracted to 2013 £0.5m
Kyle Lafferty contracted to 2013 £0.5m
Lee Wallace contracted to 2016 £1.0m
Steven Naismith contracted to 2015 £2.5m
Steven Whittaker contracted to 2016 £2.5m
Carlos Bocanegra contracted to 2014 £0.5m
Alejandro Bedoya contracted to 2014 £0.5m

all average prices imo n that £14million before they even look at the sale of ibrox n murray park

[CropleyWasGod]

all assets through liqudation would generate more money no? the squad itself be worth £11million no? just to name a few

Allan McGregor contracted to 2017 £2.5m
Dorin Goian contracted to 2014 £0.5m
Kirk Broadfoot contracted to 2017 £0.5m
Lee McCulloch contracted to 2013 £0.5m
Maurice Edu contracted to 2013 £0.5m
Steven Davis contracted to 2016 £2.5m
John Fleck contracted to 2013 £0.5m
Kyle Lafferty contracted to 2013 £0.5m
Lee Wallace contracted to 2016 £1.0m
Steven Naismith contracted to 2015 £2.5m
Steven Whittaker contracted to 2016 £2.5m
Carlos Bocanegra contracted to 2014 £0.5m
Alejandro Bedoya contracted to 2014 £0.5m

all average prices imo n that £14million before they even look at the sale of ibrox n murray park

In a liquidation, I understand that all players become free agents. Either that, or their contracts revert to the SFA. In other words, they are worthless.

Even without liquidation, many of those whose contracts were re-negotiated recently will have clauses which enable them to walk away cheaply or for free in certain events.

[hibs0666]

You wouldn't get that money for those players now. Not when everyone knows what state RFC are in, and how little is left on their contracts.

It's also debatable about the marketability of the properties. But that's not the admins fault. Nobody else has bid for them yet.

Has anyone been given the opportunity to buy the properties as yet?

[HibeeMG]

In a liquidation, I understand that all players become free agents. Either that, or their contracts revert to the SFA. In other words, they are worthless.

Even without liquidation, many of those whose contracts were re-negotiated recently will have clauses which enable them to walk away cheaply or for free in certain events.

Yes, that may be. I think, though, that the point Brando and myself (earlier) are making, is that the administrators have not tried to sell off the assets (property, land and players) to maximum effect. This is purely to enable the club to continue as a going concern in some shape or form. £11m, in my uneducated and ill-informed opinion, is a pittance for all these assets.

[HibeeMG]

Has anyone been given the opportunity to buy the properties as yet?

My point exactly. They've not exactly, actively, tried to find buyers for them have they? Where's the big 'For Sale' sign outside Ibrox!?

[CropleyWasGod]

Has anyone been given the opportunity to buy the properties as yet?

Not that I'm aware of. However, now that they are "for sale", you might see someone come in with a better offer. That would really set the cat amongst the masons. :greengrin

[Brando7]

Yes, that may be. I think, though, that the point Brando and myself (earlier) are making, is that the administrators have not tried to sell off the assets (property, land and players) to maximum effect. This is purely to enable the club to continue as a going concern in some shape or form. £11m, in my uneducated and ill-informed opinion, is a pittance for all these assets.

spot on m8

so BM has effectively bought the squad with ibrox & murray pask thrown in for free, 14th Feb soon as the were in admin all players should have been up for sale with money due 1st July, that would have created more income before conditions were added to contracts

[jgl07]

all assets through liqudation would generate more money no? the squad itself be worth £11million no? just to name a few

Allan McGregor contracted to 2017 £2.5m
Dorin Goian contracted to 2014 £0.5m
Kirk Broadfoot contracted to 2017 £0.5m
Lee McCulloch contracted to 2013 £0.5m
Maurice Edu contracted to 2013 £0.5m
Steven Davis contracted to 2016 £2.5m
John Fleck contracted to 2013 £0.5m
Kyle Lafferty contracted to 2013 £0.5m
Lee Wallace contracted to 2016 £1.0m
Steven Naismith contracted to 2015 £2.5m
Steven Whittaker contracted to 2016 £2.5m
Carlos Bocanegra contracted to 2014 £0.5m
Alejandro Bedoya contracted to 2014 £0.5m

all average prices imo n that £14million before they even look at the sale of ibrox n murray park

That squad would raise diddly squat. The only ones with an real transfer value could easily engineer 'free-agent' status if they wish to. Why pay Rangers a transfer fee when you can pick them up for nothing a month later? In the event of liquidation the contracts would revert to the SPL anyway.

Whittakaker and Naismith may be in demand but there would be nothing more than nominal fees forthcoming for the entire squad. None of the other players would be of the slightest interest to anyone else on Scotland or a EPL or Championship team.

Murray Park and Ibrox only have any real value to a football club operating in that area. The real estate values are next to zero given planning contraints and listed building status.

[Seveno]

I wonder what the SFA intend doing, if anything, to assure themselves that Wild Bill is a fit and proper person ? :cb

[down-the-slope]

If NewCo has OldCo (Rangers) league share...surely they would have their 12 month signing ban...so they could not even 'sign' the players the currently has contracts for OldCo :confused:

[ehf]

I wonder what the SFA intend doing, if anything, to assure themselves that Wild Bill is a fit and proper person ? :cb

Think we all know the answer to that: about the same as if Osama Bin Laden, or Carlos The Jackal or that Norweigan nutjob were the preferred bidder.

[jgl07]

spot on m8

so BM has effectively bought the squad with ibrox & murray pask thrown in for free, 14th Feb soon as the were in admin all players should have been up for sale with money due 1st July, that would have created more income before conditions were added to contracts

He has bought nothing. He is the preferred bidder for the Oldco and presumably will have established or be in the process of setting up a Newco.

The players will be remain with Oldco Rangers until a CVA can be agreed. He can buy the fixed assets (Murray Park and Ibrox) for his proposed Newco.

In two weeks time the players will be demanding full wages and effectively those any with value will have to be released. That is unless Miller is prepared to give cash to the administrators to keep paying their wages in the hope that a CVA will be agreed.

[Twa Cairpets]

How do you think any other administrators would have done it differently?

Having been through an administration situation myself (no redundancies, by the way, and sold as going concern), I think different administrators would have solely (publicly at least) have stated their only concern is to recover as much money for creditors. The preservation of Rangers as an insitution is not, and should not, be any of their business.

That plum standing in front of cameras and say "its not a tax dodge" is the same as Bill Clintons "I did not have sexual relations", except with D+P there is actually a proper shafting going on.

[Brando7]

He has bought nothing. He is the preferred bidder for the Oldco and presumably will have established or be in the process of setting up a Newco.

The players will be remain with Oldco Rangers until a CVA can be agreed. He can buy the fixed assets (Murray Park and Ibrox) for his proposed Newco.

In two weeks time the players will be demanding full wages and effectively those any with value will have to be released. That is unless Miller is prepared to give cash to the administrators to keep paying their wages in the hope that a CVA will be agreed.

What i've read n heard the players be moved to the newco as they are part of the assets only thing left with the old co will be debts

[CropleyWasGod]

Having been through an administration situation myself (no redundancies, by the way, and sold as going concern), I think dofferen tadministrators woul dhave solely (publicly at least) have stated their only concern is to recover as much money for creditors. The preservation of Rangers as an insitution is not, and should not, be any of their business.

That plum standing in front of cameras and say "its not a tax dodge" is the same as Bill Clintons "I did not have sexual relations", except with D+P there is actually a proper shafting going on.

To be fair, they did say that at the very first press conference. (without the typos :greengrin)

I agree with what you say about the preservation of the "institution", but preservation of the going concern was always their stated first choice.

As for the tax dodge.... there never was any prospect of HMRC getting anything other than shafted, not without a nutjob with £150m rocking up. If that's a tax dodge, so is every other administration and liquidation where HMRC don't get paid in full.

[Jim44]

I wonder what the SFA intend doing, if anything, to assure themselves that Wild Bill is a fit and proper person ? :cb

Peter Clark in his interview with Alex Thomson said they had completed due diligence on Miller. I wonder how thorough that was. His alleged murky past doesn't seem to have worried the administrators. Can the SFA put a spanner in the works by declaring him not 'fit and proper'?

[CropleyWasGod]

Peter Clark in his interview with Alex Thomson said they had completed due diligence on Miller. I wonder how thorough that was. His alleged murky past doesn't seem to have worried the administrators. Can the SFA put a spanner in the works by declaring him not 'fit and proper'?

I think the system is still one of self-assessment. IIRC, Regan said a couple of months ago that the SFA would be more proactive in future, but I am not sure the new regime is in place yet.

[Brando7]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17947695?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=sportsound

Administrators told Blue Knights to go for newco - Paul Murray

[Twa Cairpets]

To be fair, they did say that at the very first press conference. (without the typos :greengrin)

I agree with what you say about the preservation of the "institution", but preservation of the going concern was always their stated first choice.

As for the tax dodge.... there never was any prospect of HMRC getting anything other than shafted, not without a nutjob with £150m rocking up. If that's a tax dodge, so is every other administration and liquidation where HMRC don't get paid in full.

Yep. sorry about the typos...
For them to state anything about preserving Rangers/maintaining their history etc was outwith their remit, and for me shows that they do not have the single minded dedication to their creditors that they should. It's the specific way of shafting everyone while seeking to preserve these vile amoral F***tards, while giving one minute of their time or consideration to preserving their repugnant past that really makes my blood boil. If they get away with it - and I agree this is still by no means certain - they will have achieved the previously considered impossible task of making them even more reviled and loathed by everyone else than previously.

[jgl07]

What i've read n heard the players be moved to the newco as they are part of the assets only thing left with the old co will be debts

But how can that be done?

It may be wishful thinking on the part of Miller.

I am not convinced that it can happen.

[seanshow]

Do you think when they were in selective payment mode, that these type of fines got paid? April2011 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/13218273) Fined by UEFA
I didn't see UEFA on their creditor list :greengrin

Speaking of which, If they are granted a place in the SPL next season surely UEFA must step in? as clearly the governing bodies and the clubs in Scotland cannot be trusted.
.......and it should be the duty of the fans of the other 11 clubs to make this happen.

[SteveHFC]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4296411/Fans-worth-the-jersey.html:faf::faf:

[Jim44]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4296411/Fans-worth-the-jersey.html:faf::faf:

That would bring a tear to glass eye.

[TrickyNicky]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4296411/Fans-worth-the-jersey.html:faf::faf:

Let's take the jersey off the guy we haven't paid for yet !

I'd be surprised if they've even paid for the jersey!

There is no end to this BS!

That "great institution" deserves to be bought by an American who doesn't even know what football is.

I can just see Wild Bill in the technical area booming at McMoist : ' For Gawdsake Alsdair, will you tell that damn negro player to pick the baawl up and hurl it in the direction of our offense, I didn't pay 11 million to watch them kick it allaaawng the turf all day " !

[JohnStephens91]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4296411/Fans-worth-the-jersey.html:faf::faf:

Where are they getting the money to print out about 50,000 e-cards?

[StevieC]

Where are they getting the money to print out about 50,000 e-cards?

They're not ... it will just be added to their list of creditors!

[hibbill2002]

Let's take the jersey off the guy we haven't paid for yet !

I'd be surprised if they've even paid for the jersey!

There is no end to this BS!

That "great institution" deserves to be bought by an American who doesn't even know what football is.

I can just see Wild Bill in the technical area booming at McMoist : ' For Gawdsake Alsdair, will you tell that damn negro player to pick the baawl up and hurl it in the direction of our offense, I didn't pay 11 million to watch them kick it allaaawng the turf all day " !

:greengrin

[BarneyK]

You wouldn't get that money for those players now. Not when everyone knows what state RFC are in, and how little is left on their contracts.

It's also debatable about the marketability of the properties. But that's not the admins fault. Nobody else has bid for them yet.

When the Administrators were trying to negotiate the massive wage reductions, did they not argue that they had to do so because they were valuable assets that would be lost during the process of redundancy; Now we're saying they're not assets at all and are worthless? :dunno:

[poolman]

Extract from James Traynor in todays rag



There is no doubt in my mind this club has suffered from the mock interest of too many who may have seen ways of making a fast buck. Opportunists all, trying to gain out of Rangers' woes.
And as a sideshow there's been the pious pap of cyberspace's nonentities. All in all this entire sorry episode hasn't exactly showcased the best of Scottish pride and spirit.
Crimes have been commited here, I suspect. Crimes against honour and against morality. Crimes, also, against Rangers and their fans.

Well, that has to be the biggest brown nosing piece of ****** I've read yet in the saga of what is the circus that is Rangers FC

[random sub]

Yep. sorry about the typos...
For them to state anything about preserving Rangers/maintaining their history etc was outwith their remit, and for me shows that they do not have the single minded dedication to their creditors that they should. It's the specific way of shafting everyone while seeking to preserve these vile amoral F***tards, while giving one minute of their time or consideration to preserving their repugnant past that really makes my blood boil. If they get away with it - and I agree this is still by no means certain - they will have achieved the previously considered impossible task of making them even more reviled and loathed by everyone else than previously.

Well said Two Carpets, my feelings exactly. Their vileness is growing day by day.

[Geo_1875]

Extract from James Traynor in todays rag



There is no doubt in my mind this club has suffered from the mock interest of too many who may have seen ways of making a fast buck. Opportunists all, trying to gain out of Rangers' woes.
And as a sideshow there's been the pious pap of cyberspace's nonentities. All in all this entire sorry episode hasn't exactly showcased the best of Scottish pride and spirit.
Crimes have been commited here, I suspect. Crimes against honour and against morality. Crimes, also, against Rangers and their fans.

Well, that has to be the biggest brown nosing piece of ****** I've read yet in the saga of what is the circus that is Rangers FC

There may have been crimes committed during this "sorry episode" but I'm certain only those committed by RFC and their various owners and employees would result in a conviction in a court of law. And as for internet nonentities, they're only nonentities in the opinion of a nonentity with a very public platform. Being an employee of a public corporation he should be held to account for his obvious partisanship.

[ScottB]

Extract from James Traynor in todays rag



There is no doubt in my mind this club has suffered from the mock interest of too many who may have seen ways of making a fast buck. Opportunists all, trying to gain out of Rangers' woes.
And as a sideshow there's been the pious pap of cyberspace's nonentities. All in all this entire sorry episode hasn't exactly showcased the best of Scottish pride and spirit.
Crimes have been commited here, I suspect. Crimes against honour and against morality. Crimes, also, against Rangers and their fans.

Well, that has to be the biggest brown nosing piece of ****** I've read yet in the saga of what is the circus that is Rangers FC

Ignoring the crimes committed by Rangers...

[Spike Mandela]

As for the tax dodge.... there never was any prospect of HMRC getting anything other than shafted, not without a nutjob with £150m rocking up. If that's a tax dodge, so is every other administration and liquidation where HMRC don't get paid in full.

That's just it though it is. This 'law' is an ass and especially in football it is being used as a financial tool to bail out crooks.

No offence CWG, but these financial types are taking the general public for mugs and along with MPs and their expenses followed by the bankers creating our financial crisis but stiill giving themselves huge bonuses the public is just getting fed up of all this financial chicanery.

They hide behind terms like 'legal', 'legitamate' and 'administration' but any way you dress it up it is just a way to con people out of money.

[Scorrie]

[QUOTE=poolman;3209159]Extract from James Traynor in todays rag



There is no doubt in my mind this club has suffered from the mock interest of too many who may have seen ways of making a fast buck. Opportunists all, trying to gain out of Rangers' woes.
And as a sideshow there's been the pious pap of cyberspace's nonentities. All in all this entire sorry episode hasn't exactly showcased the best of Scottish pride and spirit.
Crimes have been commited here, I suspect. Crimes against honour and against morality. Crimes, also, against Rangers and their fans.

What aboot the crime of Traynor impersonating a journalist? Should have been lifted years ago.

On a related them, all this about Rangers (and indeed the OF) being essential for the commercial well being of Scottish football. If they are serious about that, how about going back to the days of splitting the gate money? that way when we play in Glasgow we actually do get some financial benefit?

[green glory]

Maybe a bit hasty to assume this Miller deal is going to work out. The admins have lied about SPL assurances and HMRC blessing of the deal. They are at the court of session today, and the SPL meeting is Monday. The chess pieces are only now beginning to move.

Ignore the weegie media, it has a biased biewpoint, and as has been demonstrated all the way throughout this saga, a poor understanding of what's actually happening.

[JeMeSouviens]

Scotsman article:

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/rangers-takeover-rangers-squad-could-move-straight-to-newco-1-2273459

Couple of interesting things.

1. Transfer of players. D&P seem to have told Bill Miller he'll get all the players included in his £11.2M:



“The registration rests with the club, not a limited company,” said the source. “There is a question how you define a club but, if a newco acquired the league share, it would be the club.”

The source also insisted that such a share transfer would also preserve the history of Rangers.

He said: “The football club is all important, with the actual registered company number and effective name not as important. As long as a football club stays together so does the football share, players and titles.”


In my completely unlearned amateur opinion this is major league bull****. They might get away with the titles just by repeating it often enough, they might get away with the football share in the face of craven authorities and complicit spineless "competitors", (including us). However, in a world of player power and sharp agents they have next to **** all chance of making that stick with regard to the players.

2. UEFA


The Uefa stance is clear and unequivocal on how it treats any newco created to shield a football team from any financial or regulatory ills experienced by the organisation from which it sprang.

“If a club sets up a new company simply to avoid paying its debts or obligations then they would almost certainly fail the three-year rule [for obtaining the required Uefa licence],” a spokesperson for Uefa told The Scotsman.

“This is to ensure clubs do not simply create a ‘newco’ and leave the previous entity in charge of dealing with debts.”

Previously, Uefa have made the following statement pertaining to newcos: “Clubs are not allowed to change their legal form or structure in order to obtain a licence, simply by ‘cleaning up’ their balance sheet while offloading debts – thus harming creditors (including employees and social/tax authorities) as well as threatening the integrity of sporting competition. Any

such alteration of a club’s legal form or structure is deemed to be an interruption to its membership of a UEFA member association and, consequently, three years must pass before a club can apply again for a UEFA licence. In other words, the three-year rule is designed basically to avoid circumvention of the club licensing system.”

Haven't these Johnny Foreigners heard they have to do everything possible to keep "The Rainjurs" in business? :rolleyes:

Seriously, how refreshing to read some quotes from a football governing body that actually seems capable of doing some governance!

[Caversham Green]

I certainly recommend that those interested in this topic should listen to Thomson's interview of the administrator Paul Clark.
Again he refers to monies coming to the oldco from litigation, so he is again hyping up the court case gainst Collyer Bristow.

Plus he implies that there may be additional court proceedings relating "possibly prior to the takeover". Does he mean SDM?

"No one should be under any illusion that the tax man will be paid in full [well I never!] but Miller's offer represents the best solution."

Dodges the questions about sporting integrity - effectively, "not my job".

"Give and take in discussions with the footballing authorities" - I wonder what the SPL took from the discussions.

I do feel rather dirty having watched that.

To be fair it really is not his job. He was appointed to achieve the best possible deal for creditors (whether he's doing that or not is highly debatable) and sporting integrity is actually something of an impediment to him - his job is to be interested only in the financial and commercial side. The sporting integrity issue lies squarely with the SPL and SFA and I've yet to see either of them show any interest in it. Cutting a deal with the administrators that compromises sporting integrity is a breach of their duties, but from the administrator's point of view he is acting in accordance with his duties.

Having said that, the interview did turn my stomach. His attitude is what gives accountants a bad name, but we're really not all like that.

[CropleyWasGod]

When the Administrators were trying to negotiate the massive wage reductions, did they not argue that they had to do so because they were valuable assets that would be lost during the process of redundancy; Now we're saying they're not assets at all and are worthless? :dunno:

In the CVA process that they were trying to achieve, the players were valuable. That was where the value of the business lay.

That was the administration process. In a liquidation, they do seem to be worthless.

[CropleyWasGod]

To be fair it really is not his job. He was appointed to achieve the best possible deal for creditors (whether he's doing that or not is highly debatable) and sporting integrity is actually something of an impediment to him - his job is to be interested only in the financial and commercial side. The sporting integrity issue lies squarely with the SPL and SFA and I've yet to see either of them show any interest in it. Cutting a deal with the administrators that compromises sporting integrity is a breach of their duties, but from the administrator's point of view he is acting in accordance with his duties.

Having said that, the interview did turn my stomach. His attitude is what gives accountants a bad name, but we're really not all like that.

Speak for yourself :na na:

[EuanH78]

Extract from James Traynor in todays rag



There is no doubt in my mind this club has suffered from the mock interest of too many who may have seen ways of making a fast buck. Opportunists all, trying to gain out of Rangers' woes.
And as a sideshow there's been the pious pap of cyberspace's nonentities. All in all this entire sorry episode hasn't exactly showcased the best of Scottish pride and spirit.
Crimes have been commited here, I suspect. Crimes against honour and against morality. Crimes, also, against Rangers and their fans.

Well, that has to be the biggest brown nosing piece of ****** I've read yet in the saga of what is the circus that is Rangers FC

Think Traynor might have shot his bolt a little early on this one..

[Caversham Green]

Speak for yourself :na na:

I was going to add 'CWG seems like a decent sort' but I'm glad I didn't now.

[CropleyWasGod]

Think Traynor might have shot his bolt a little early on this one..

As one of cyberspace's nonentities, I take great offence at some of what he says.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Extract from James Traynor in todays rag



There is no doubt in my mind this club has suffered from the mock interest of too many who may have seen ways of making a fast buck. Opportunists all, trying to gain out of Rangers' woes.
And as a sideshow there's been the pious pap of cyberspace's nonentities. All in all this entire sorry episode hasn't exactly showcased the best of Scottish pride and spirit.
Crimes have been commited here, I suspect. Crimes against honour and against morality. Crimes, also, against Rangers and their fans.

Well, that has to be the biggest brown nosing piece of ****** I've read yet in the saga of what is the circus that is Rangers FC

The only way football supporters can get to express their opinion is through the medium of the internet. I presume therefore that Mr Traynor is referring to the messageboards of non rangers fans and the odd blogger. Given that the vast majority of opinion on these sites is that a newco current buns should have to apply for a place in the SFL and should not be allowed straight in to the SPL, which is against what he wants, we are all "pious nonentities".

If wanting to see cheats punished makes me a "pious nonentity" James, then guilty as charged.

Better a pious nonentity than a biased journalist who has allowed years of sucking on the teat of the old firm to terminally cloud his journalistic integrity and judgement .......... The first stop for any sports journalist should be to identify cheats wherever possible and bring them to the attention of the public, in the hope that they will be stopped and punished .... Without sporting fair play and integrity sport, be it professional or amatuer is NOTHING !

The amount of money the cheat concerned generates for the sport involved should be of absolutely no consequence whatsoever !!!

"Pious nonentities" is it ? At least we now know what he thinks of his non rangers readers. As if we hadnt worked it out anyway.

[Caversham Green]

Scotsman article:

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/rangers-takeover-rangers-squad-could-move-straight-to-newco-1-2273459

Couple of interesting things.

1. Transfer of players. D&P seem to have told Bill Miller he'll get all the players included in his £11.2M:



In my completely unlearned amateur opinion this is major league bull****. They might get away with the titles just by repeating it often enough, they might get away with the football share in the face of craven authorities and complicit spineless "competitors", (including us). However, in a world of player power and sharp agents they have next to **** all chance of making that stick with regard to the players.

2. UEFA



Haven't these Johnny Foreigners heard they have to do everything possible to keep "The Rainjurs" in business? :rolleyes:

Seriously, how refreshing to read some quotes from a football governing body that actually seems capable of doing some governance!

:agree: The club has no legal identity beyond the limited company, so it can't legally employ anyone. If you do carry on with that approach though, the club is currently under a 12 month signing embargo; the club has been fined £160k plus £200k levied on an officer of the club; the club stands accused of hidden contracts with players and the club was guilty of defrauding the tax authorities. The limited company is only accountable for the last of these because that's the only one it actually gained from.

[Newry Hibs]

Does this all not boil down to whether RFC get to play in the SPL next year (aside from the trivial matter of fleecing people of 10s of millions of pounds)?
Millers NewCo need the OldCo licence - is this a given that they get it?
If they get it, can they just play again next year in the SPL?
Does someone need to grant the NewCo permission to play in SPL. Despite Doncasters view and recommendation will it actually be voted on?
UEFAs 3 year rule - I imagine any new owners have accepted no Euro football for 3 years. I would like to think that if UEFA impose this 3 year rule as it deems a newco is dodging liabilities, then they would also not be happy with a newco sitting at the top end of a domestic league and act on it.

[BarneyK]

So what would be everyones most memorable buzzword (or phrase) throughout this whole process? Mine would have to be "For the avoidance of doubt..." You can pretty much guarantee that any sentence that has started with this over the past 12 weeks has lead to anything but clarity.

[CropleyWasGod]

Does this all not boil down to whether RFC get to play in the SPL next year (aside from the trivial matter of fleecing people of 10s of millions of pounds)?
Millers NewCo need the OldCo licence - is this a given that they get it?
If they get it, can they just play again next year in the SPL?
Does someone need to grant the NewCo permission to play in SPL. Despite Doncasters view and recommendation will it actually be voted on?
UEFAs 3 year rule - I imagine any new owners have accepted no Euro football for 3 years. I would like to think that if UEFA impose this 3 year rule as it deems a newco is dodging liabilities, then they would also not be happy with a newco sitting at the top end of a domestic league and act on it.

It's also the opinion of Fraser Wishart that the players' contracts cannot be transferred to a new company that easily.

[EuanH78]

As one of cyberspace's nonentities, I take great offence at some of what he says.

I wouldnt CWG, maybe a cyberspace nonentity but he's a fat, corpulent hack...nonentity.

[JeMeSouviens]

English BBC journo who appears to specialise in football administration:


Matt Slater ‏ @mattslaterbbc

Been making calls re SPL/SFA promises to BM. There weren't any. It's posturing & an attempt to force the other clubs' hands #RFC

[EuanH78]

English BBC journo who appears to specialise in football administration:

Yup, this is a poker game now.. Wonder if Duff and Duffer and the Sherman Tank know about our Rod's poker face? :cb

[Mon Dieu4]

It's also the opinion of Fraser Wishart that the players' contracts cannot be transferred to a new company that easily.

Could have swore i read at the time that the players renegotiated contracts meant if a newco was set up they could leave with no or a nominal fee

[CropleyWasGod]

Could have swore i read at the time that the players renegotiated contracts meant if a newco was set up they could leave with no or a nominal fee

There were a lot of speculative assumptions at the time, such as the one you mention, the right to walk away if they didn't like the new owner, and the right to walk away at the end of the season. I don't think anything was ever actually disclosed, and rightly so. My assumption is that each renegotiated contract was different.

[Jim44]

Does this all not boil down to whether RFC get to play in the SPL next year (aside from the trivial matter of fleecing people of 10s of millions of pounds)?
Millers NewCo need the OldCo licence - is this a given that they get it?
If they get it, can they just play again next year in the SPL?
Does someone need to grant the NewCo permission to play in SPL. Despite Doncasters view and recommendation will it actually be voted on?
UEFAs 3 year rule - I imagine any new owners have accepted no Euro football for 3 years. I would like to think that if UEFA impose this 3 year rule as it deems a newco is dodging liabilities, then they would also not be happy with a newco sitting at the top end of a domestic league and act on it.

UEFA's moral and direct policy of refusing licences to play in European competiions to clubs which have 'dodged the bullet' of paying debts and taxes, theft, in any other language, is commendable and logical. However I suspect that that is where their active involvement in this case will stop. While the SPL and SFA have, fudgingly, not played their final cards, I think that even the wildest exponent of fair play, decency and honesty expects them to eventually roll over and have their bellies tickled by the lure of financial security and continuity of the status quo (corrupt and servile as it seems,when it comes to the final crunch, most clubs will unfortunately and cowardly admit to a dependence on the presence of a 'successful Old Firm' in the SPL). If and when these cowards open the door to welcome back the 'cleansed' Govan newco,) nothing would please me more if UEFA came down on our football authorities like a ton of bricks and took drastic measures to make an example of them and warn other countries that this sort of chicanery will not be tolerated. But, somehow, we all know they probably wont.

[cad]

Yup, this is a poker game now.. Wonder if Duff and Duffer and the Sherman Tank know about our Rod's poker face? :cb





Rods pair off 2`s will way to much for the Huns .:cb

[green glory]

With the admin's willingness to tell a load of porkies to the compliant weegie media yesterday. You have to wonder what fantasy assurances Bill Miller has been given. Player contracts to a newco, rules on newco in Europe, SPL and Hector lying down etc etc etc.

The balloon is going to go pop soon I hope. I think today at the court of session and Monday's SPL meeting are pivotal.

[greenginger]

http://www.journallive.co.uk/newcastle-sports/football-news/non-league-football/2012/05/04/quakers-saved-but-future-is-in-the-air-61634-30897946/

So much for Doncaster's blatant lies about there being no difference in exiting admin. with a CVA in place or not and how in England clubs just stay in the same league.

Darlington are heading for the Evo-Stick premiership but not through a SOLVENT reconstruction. :greengrin

Has any Learned Hacks suggested how, if the switch to Newco Hun is to be done before the end of the season, the Newco can't have any players cleared to play their last game with the transfer window shut ?

[ScottB]

Yup, this is a poker game now.. Wonder if Duff and Duffer and the Sherman Tank know about our Rod's poker face? :cb

The tache will be twitching in anticipation at the opportunity to fleece them good. I'd hope.


Could have swore i read at the time that the players renegotiated contracts meant if a newco was set up they could leave with no or a nominal fee


There were a lot of speculative assumptions at the time, such as the one you mention, the right to walk away if they didn't like the new owner, and the right to walk away at the end of the season. I don't think anything was ever actually disclosed, and rightly so. My assumption is that each renegotiated contract was different.

It was reported at the time that some / all the players had clauses allowing them to leave if Whyte was still involved with the club. He still owns his shares...


With the admin's willingness to tell a load of porkies to the compliant weegie media yesterday. You have to wonder what fantasy assurances Bill Miller has been given. Player contracts to a newco, rules on newco in Europe, SPL and Hector lying down etc etc etc.

The balloon is going to go pop soon I hope. I think today at the court of session and Monday's SPL meeting are pivotal.

Surely the Court will call them out on the apparent bare faced lies they spouted yesterday...

[BarneyK]

http://www.journallive.co.uk/newcastle-sports/football-news/non-league-football/2012/05/04/quakers-saved-but-future-is-in-the-air-61634-30897946/

So much for Doncaster's blatant lies about there being no difference in exiting admin. with a CVA in place or not and how in England clubs just stay in the same league.

Darlington are heading for the Evo-Stick premiership but not through a SOLVENT reconstruction. :greengrin

Has any Learned Hacks suggested how, if the switch to Newco Hun is to be done before the end of the season, the Newco can't have any players cleared to play their last game with the transfer window shut ?

The clubs he mentioned exited through a CVA. He really needs to work a bit harder on his research. The one he really should have quoted was Leeds United. They had no CVA, were (I think) liquidated, and yet they retained their league share, the league quoting an "exceptional circumstances rule".

[JeMeSouviens]

http://www.journallive.co.uk/newcastle-sports/football-news/non-league-football/2012/05/04/quakers-saved-but-future-is-in-the-air-61634-30897946/

So much for Doncaster's blatant lies about there being no difference in exiting admin. with a CVA in place or not and how in England clubs just stay in the same league.

Darlington are heading for the Evo-Stick premiership but not through a SOLVENT reconstruction. :greengrin

Has any Learned Hacks suggested how, if the switch to Newco Hun is to be done before the end of the season, the Newco can't have any players cleared to play their last game with the transfer window shut ?


So while liquidation has been avoided, the absence of a company voluntary agreement to pay off creditors means further FA sanctions are likely, in the shape of demotion to Evo-Stik Premier or North, and a possible points penalty.

Nails Doncaster's blatant lying. Quelle surprise. :rolleyes:

[Killiehibbie]

As one of cyberspace's nonentities, I take great offence at some of what he says.All these nonentities add up to more than he thinks.

[Velma Dinkley]

So everyone employed by Rangers is lying, everyone previously employed by Rangers is lying, the administrators are lying, this Doncaster chap is lying, 99.9 per cent of the Scottish media are lying. :coffee:

[JeMeSouviens]

The clubs he mentioned exited through a CVA. He really needs to work a bit harder on his research. The one he really should have quoted was Leeds United. They had no CVA, were (I think) liquidated, and yet they retained their league share, the league quoting an "exceptional circumstances rule".

Leeds actually had a CVA agreed but it was later challenged at the last minute (by the mighty Hector) as there were some dubious shenanigans going on which may have inflated the %age of debts owed to opaque offshore companies with alleged links to Ken Bates. All very murky.

I agree it is the only available precedent which comes close to applying but I'm not sure it's one they really want to be comparing themselves to!

[joe breezy]

"Leaving Glasgow, am stunned that tax-dodging Rangers' latest Big Idea is....a tax dodge. Glasgow papers report this as some kind of triumph!"

Alex Thomson - Channel 4 News (twitter account)

[JeMeSouviens]

Nicked this from a Sheffield Wednesday forum. It was written by one of the guys behind Club 9 sports and may inform on Miller's motivation (note reference to Der Hun so they were obviously keeping tabs on Scotland as well). Accountancy comments welcome ... :wink:



A Case In Favor of English Football Investment

The recent smattering of insolvencies and financially distressed situations in English football has once again placed the spotlight on the current football league model as well as the financial management of clubs in the top four leagues of the FA. The resulting financial disarray has not only caused many clubs as well as their financial partners to seek the restructuring of existing bank loans but those same clubs to seek additional equity capital or outright sale of the club.

The Perfect Storm
English clubs from a period beginning in 2003 through 2009 relied increasingly on leverage to fund club acquisitions as well as to fund football operations and ongoing earnings deficits. English football was awash in bank liquidity from their major financial institutions including but not limited to RBS, Lloyds Bank, Barclays and other middle market players such as Co-Operative Bank plc. In many circumstances, these loans were structured and secured by first mortgage facilities on club grounds and extended on an overdraft or demand basis. Even foreign competition entered the markets with Wachovia Bank’s syndicated financing in concert with RBS on the refinancing of Liverpool FC’s debt in 2008.

While the loans were secured by first mortgages and so called hard collateral, in effect, most of the secured by the enterprise value of the clubs typically modeled after some multiple of EBITDA or turnover. As a result, many of the banks were extending credit with the assumption that the club would be a going concern and turnover from television revenues and higher attendance figure would drive increases in value for the foreseeable future.

Starting with the 2008 credit crisis, the party ended for many football clubs and the punch bowl taken away by the banks. The years of calling the club’s banker to increase as well as extend the club’s credit facility were over. All of a sudden, senior credit officers and credit committees were taking an increasingly critical eye of their loan portfolios including those extended to football concerns. Most, if not all banks were tightening their credit policies and balked at any additional facility increases and in many cases requiring that clubs raise substantial equity to reduce the bank’s exposure. Between the years 2001 and 2009, the FA typically has experienced between 1 and 3 clubs filing for administration/CVA per year. Entering the 2010 season, Crystal Palace has already filed administration in January and it appears that several more clubs may soon follow by April. Notts County and Cardiff City are also face a winding-up petition from HM Revenue & Customs over unpaid tax bills, while Watford has warned that it could go into administration. On the same day that Cardiff City has a winding up hearing (February 10, 2010); Portsmouth FC will also have a hearing conducted with HMRC. Portsmouth, currently in the relegation zone in the Premiership, is feared to have debts in excess of £40-50 million. Currently on many fans’ watch list are: West Ham United as well as Hull City. It is well within the realm of possibilities that the Premiership may see the first side ever to file for administration. Two of the largest clubs facing major refinancing of their debt in 2010 are Manchester United and Liverpool FC which have a total amount of funded debt in excess of £900 million.

Valuations

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs…… Rudyard Kipling

The dearth in new bank financings as well as the overall economic malaise has caused a withering of football club values in the last 1-2 years. New investment funds have sought a respite from the current market volatility and moved to more traditional bond and equity investments as well as cash. Additional concerns over football spending by supporters in the form of season tickets, merchandise and concessions has spooked many an experienced investor. Finally, the latest extension of Sky Sports television contract through the 2012/13 season provided little to be encouraged by in terms of a significant uptick in revenues.

Southampton FC who competed in the EPL as late as the 2004-05 season filed for administration in April of 2009. As a result of this administration, the club was relegated to League One status for the 2009-10 season. The sale of the club out of administration provides an interesting data point in terms of valuation. Southampton Soccer News Topics, who had spent 25 years in England’s top division, was reportedly sold at a valuation metric (assuming turnover of £13 million) of approximately 1x. This is a significant departure from previous sales multiples for Championship level clubs in recent years (Coventry 2007 for 6.0x, Ipswich 2007 – 4.2x, Birmingham City 2007 – 2.0x, Wolverhampton 2007 – 2.52x). The only club acquisition approaching that of Southampton’s was Derby County in 2008 following its relegation to the Championship where previous turnover was inflated from the Premiership.

Recent equity raises and outright sales of Championship clubs have met with continued tepid response, at best, over the past two years with no new sales of clubs occurring in the 2009 calendar year. Clubs such as Crystal Palace Soccer News Topics, Watford, Charlton Athletic, Sheffield Wednesday and Reading had reportedly tested the markets for new investors and were met with little success.

The Specter of Administration
Administration has a significant cost associated with it in English Football. League rules specify that any club filing for administration will be assessed a 10-point penalty in the league tables. As a result of Crystal Palace’s recent filing, the club went from a potential playoff contender for promotion to 21st place just above the drop zone. While administration may appear at first blush as a viable financial alternative, the penalties associated with it can force a club into relegation into the next lower football division and diminish the overall value of the club. Due to this hefty penalty, clubs as well as banks are reluctant to force a club into administration. Many banks have chosen instead to work cooperatively with the banks in terms of finding new equity investors to repay debt (causing dilution in the existing equity holdings), increased supervision by the bank (as has been reported in the case of Scottish FA giant Glasgow Rangers) or an overall restructuring and forgiveness of debt (‘cram-down’ in American parlance).

Due to the above intervening factors, the FA has turned into a relative treasure trove for the experienced sports entrepreneur or investor. Banks and equity stakeholders as of late have shown a greater propensity to be more flexible in their negotiations with potential investors and purchasers. This new-found flexibility will result in clubs emerging from restructurings without having to go through the process of administration while providing reasonable purchase multiples which were non-existent as recent as two years ago.

Evaluating Opportunities
Financial analysis of football clubs is not terribly onerous and focuses on a number potential value drivers:

1. The grounds must be owned by the club;
2. Size of grounds must be in upper quartile of its respective league;
3. Fan support (as defined by average attendance) in top quartile of its respective league;
4. The club must maintain a well-respected academy;
5. Positive EBITDA (exc. Player transfers);
6. Pro-Forma debt less than £10 million post acquisition;
7. Must be in Championship or Premiership; and
8. Wages/Turnover must be maintained at 60% or less and be competitive in its respective league.

Adhering to the above screening criteria provides a strong foundation in order to build a financially viable club long-term. Many of us will look back upon this time in this space and realize that this was a once in a lifetime change in an industry where some will capitalize and reap huge rewards.

Joseph M. Kosich is the founder of Dornoch Capital Advisors LLC, a merchant banking and advisory firm specializing in professional sports finance and located in Pinehurst, NC. Previously, Joe founded and served as a managing director and head of originations and syndications for Wachovia’s Structured Finance Group which specialized in sports and entertainment finance. Joe was responsible for structuring and syndicating complex corporate finance transactions in the United States, Canada and U.K for ultra high net worth families and individual sponsor groups. Joe’s primary focus was on enterprise value lending, preferred, mezzanine and other subordinated debt structures. Prior to joining Wachovia in 2005, Joe spent 16 years, in various structured finance and corporate/private banking positions, with Citigroup, UBS, AG and Bank of America Soccer News Topics.

[CropleyWasGod]

Just had a thought, and it's probably one for the lawyers out there.

BM wants to buy the property of RFC, and presumably his solicitors will do their due diligence and checking of title etc. CW's company still have a charge lodged with Companies House, over the whole of RFC's assets. I think, as do the administrators, that that charge is worthless.

Here's the questions.:-

1. does that charge, even though it may be worthless, have to be lifted before a sale happens? How easy is that?

2. what are CW's rights in blocking the sale?

Flies... ointment.. now.

[hibs0666]

Apparently there is a UEFA statement doing the rounds stating that any transfer to a newco would constitute an interruption of membership and an automatic three-year ban would from Europe would ensure.

[joe breezy]

Michel Platini was going to get UEFA involved but has changed his mind now that he's seen this heartfelt masterpiece

http://youtu.be/ek7SfViBvJs


:thumbsup::greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

[D7 Bohs]

Apparently there is a UEFA statement doing the rounds stating that any transfer to a newco would constitute an interruption of membership and an automatic three-year ban would from Europe would ensure.

That rule was invoked to stop Derry City playing in Europe this year, their third year as a reborn entity - and this despite the FAI petitioning to have it waived. We got their place :wink:

[EuanH78]

Michel Platini was going to get UEFA involved but has changed his mind now that he's seen this heartfelt masterpiece

http://youtu.be/ek7SfViBvJs


:thumbsup::greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

:faf: not sure if it's better or worse than the one with the bairns keyboard but hysterical all the same :faf:

The Huns... Dont do er.. Dignity.

[PatHead]

Michel Platini was going to get UEFA involved but has changed his mind now that he's seen this heartfelt masterpiece

http://youtu.be/ek7SfViBvJs


:thumbsup::greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

What a sad inbreed with his wife/daughter/lover. Hope they don't have more children

[calmac12000]

Despite the collective sigh's of relief from those of a Rangers persuasion, I feel honour bound to point out that except from Bill Millar achieving preferred bidder status in the fight(?) to take ownership of the clubd in administration, the material facts are exactly the same as they were when the process started. I won't dignify organs like the Daily Ranger who are lauding the arrrival of Mr. Millar, in a similar manner to which they would mark the second coming by pointing this out or the fact that considering the background to this drama, no money has actually changed hands yet. Being, totally honest the chances of the Millar deal coming to fruition are not high.:flag:

[green glory]

Is there any word on the outcome of today's visit to the Court of Session by Duff and Duffer?

[Just Alf]

Michel Platini was going to get UEFA involved but has changed his mind now that he's seen this heartfelt masterpiece

http://youtu.be/ek7SfViBvJs


:thumbsup::greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

comedy gold :not worth ..... some of the comments are brill as well! :top marks ....... I'm scooshed tho..... do I score it up or down?! :Ummm:

[Saorsa]

Michel Platini was going to get UEFA involved but has changed his mind now that he's seen this heartfelt masterpiece

http://youtu.be/ek7SfViBvJs


:thumbsup::greengrin:greengrin:greengrinhttp://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b168/jamie1971/smilies%202/fall_off_chair_laughing.gif

[Just Alf]

Oh God... NOOOOOOOOOOOO

http://t.co/MPECfApd

:rolleyes:

[CropleyWasGod]

Is there any word on the outcome of today's visit to the Court of Session by Duff and Duffer?

They got six months

[greenlex]

Michel Platini was going to get UEFA involved but has changed his mind now that he's seen this heartfelt masterpiece

http://youtu.be/ek7SfViBvJs


:thumbsup::greengrin:greengrin:greengrin
Deary ****ing me!!!! What a sad hun ******. All thats missing is the spaghetti hoops sauce stain on the shirt.

[Brando7]

Oh God... NOOOOOOOOOOOO

http://t.co/MPECfApd

:rolleyes:

Pretty much how i see all this ending up also...shocking!!!!

[CropleyWasGod]

Pretty much how i see all this ending up also...shocking!!!!

It ignores the question of the players' contracts, and the security issue that I raised earlier.

[Prof. Shaggy]

Michel Platini was going to get UEFA involved but has changed his mind now that he's seen this heartfelt masterpiece

http://youtu.be/ek7SfViBvJs


:thumbsup::greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

Very very sad indeed.
His karaoke isn't even playing the right chords.

[hibs0666]

Could have swore i read at the time that the players renegotiated contracts meant if a newco was set up they could leave with no or a nominal fee

TUPE governs the transfer of employees from one entity to another and will:


protect players existing terms and conditions when they transfer into Newco
allow the players to walk for hee haw at the time of staff transfer.

[calmac12000]

TUPE governs the transfer of employees from one entity to another and will:


protect players existing terms and conditions when they transfer into Newco
allow the players to walk for hee haw at the time of staff transfer.



Have you forgotten that normal law doesn;t apply to 'ra Rangers!:wink:

[hibs0666]

Alex Thomson implying that Lloyds Bank have been sending letters to SPL clubs. Can only assume that the letters relate to the huns administration in some way.

[Lungo--Drom]

I remember when R*****s were playing in Manchester, remember that? The night their loyal followers smashed up Manchester city centre and each other, anyway I was driving back north on the M74 after working in Carlisle that day. Gradually I started to get overtaken by big BMWs wi RFC number plates and the like. Not who I wanted to be sharing the motorway with, but then I saw an overbridge and some C****c lads must've been out, cause there was a banner hanging from the railings and it said, "Burn A Hun, Burn a Hundred" That's it. Classic. That's what it said :)


:agree: The same with the BBC interview (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17943429) where he repeatedly refers to the priority being keeping the club going.

I thought on the open market the players/Ibrox/Murray Park etc could generate more than the £11m they're talking about for creditors, unless they are guaranteed a slice of any future income (unlikely).

[Brando7]

pretty poor statement from the SFA

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=1961&newsID=9791&newsCategoryID=1

[Jim44]

pretty poor statement from the SFA

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=1961&newsID=9791&newsCategoryID=1

In other words. - 'welcome back, Rangers. What was all the fuss about.'

[greenginger]

In other words. - 'welcome back, Rangers. What was all the fuss about.'


Or, " A sustainable future for the Club " Start again in the 3 rd division and learn some humility !

Well you can always dream. :wink:

[stokesmessiah]

I am shocked :rolleyes:

An #SPL source tells me they would have no problem with #Rangers transferring players contracts to a newco company.@BBCchrismclaug (http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug) 7 hours ago

[jgl07]

I am shocked :rolleyes:

An #SPL source tells me they would have no problem with #Rangers transferring players contracts to a newco company.@BBCchrismclaug (http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug) 7 hours ago

Now let me guess, that would be Doncaster?

The SPL clubs will have to have a say on this.

Doncaster spent half of last season reporting that the SPL were on the point of agreeing to the 10-club league setup despite the fact that several clubs were not prepared to sign up.

To be honest if Doncaster reported that Hibs were to play Hearts in the Scottish Cup final I would question if this was true. He is very untrustworthy indeed.

[Stonewall]

TUPE governs the transfer of employees from one entity to another and will:

protect players existing terms and conditions when they transfer into Newco
allow the players to walk for hee haw at the time of staff transfer.


There are ways around TUPE though. eg if it's a transfer of shares then the purchasers can get around the regs. I srate this as a victim.

[TrickyNicky]

Michel Platini was going to get UEFA involved but has changed his mind now that he's seen this heartfelt masterpiece

http://youtu.be/ek7SfViBvJs


:thumbsup::greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

Thair the ones I feel sorry for in all of this, a great voice and a big heart !:wink:


:giruy:

[down-the-slope]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17947695#asset

This radio interview with Paul Murray (may have been posted already) has lots of very interesting bits...D&P not playing with straight bat if you take from what Murray says....

Also very interesting that Europe income was totaly crucial to thier business plan cash flow...and in effect he is saying any NewCo = none for 3 years (which is why they were only going for CVA) and that in effect he can't see finances working without it.....

It just gets more ridiculous....so not only do they need to be in SPL...BUT they need Champs league income for it to work....they are royaly busted if thats the sand they are built on....

[CropleyWasGod]

I am shocked :rolleyes:

An #SPL source tells me they would have no problem with #Rangers transferring players contracts to a newco company.@BBCchrismclaug (http://twitter.com/BBCchrismclaug) 7 hours ago

Is it their call? I thought it would be up to the SFA

[H18sry]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2012/05/05/rangers-in-crisis-backlash-fear-forces-11-club-vote-on-ibrox-club-s-spl-future-86908-23848533/

[Caversham Green]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2012/05/05/rangers-in-crisis-backlash-fear-forces-11-club-vote-on-ibrox-club-s-spl-future-86908-23848533/

This bit interests me:


Meanwhile, ESPN have denied they are ready to pull the plug on their contract with the SPL.
An inaccurate report suggested the uncertainty over Rangers’ future had prompted the broadcaster to ditch the agreement drawn up for the next four seasons.


In the recent radio discussion Doncaster was very evasive about whether the new contract contained a 'four OF games' clause but openly admitted that the old one did. This suggests that the new one doesn't and Doncaster has been scaremongering. I think his position is close to becoming untenable.

[down-the-slope]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17947695#asset

This radio interview with Paul Murray (may have been posted already) has lots of very interesting bits...D&P not playing with straight bat if you take from what Murray says....

Also very interesting that Europe income was totaly crucial to thier business plan cash flow...and in effect he is saying any NewCo = none for 3 years (which is why they were only going for CVA) and that in effect he can't see finances working without it.....

It just gets more ridiculous....so not only do they need to be in SPL...BUT they need Champs league income for it to work....they are royaly busted if thats the sand they are built on....

PS. So Murray reckoned they needed 'double digit million' (so 10+ million) funding to get past first year with no Euro income....and under NewCo that would be needed for 3 years...Buffalo Bill who was talking about living within their means (I take that as i'm not putting my cash in) won't wear that...so when he realises UEFA won't roll over he will either walk away....or they will be radical running cost cuts...(even if all the other hurdles can be jumped)

[ScottB]

Sorry but how can a club with 50,000 paying supporters not at the least break even without a substantial pot of European money?

So Paul Murray has learned squat from the Whyte / Leeds United plan, and he's complaining his bid wasn't chosen? What nonsense!

Post CVA / liquidation, as long wages are kept under turnover I don't see how it would be difficult to have them turning at least a small profit.

[Caversham Green]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2012/05/05/rangers-in-crisis-backlash-fear-forces-11-club-vote-on-ibrox-club-s-spl-future-86908-23848533/

Another thought on this.

The board members want the full vote because they fear reprisals against their clubs - presumably from Rangers fans. That suggests they did not intend to just rubber-stamp a newco's entry into the SPL after all. Encouraging if that is the case.

BTW, I thought there were six members on the board including someone from Celtc. The report only mentions five.

[BarneyK]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17947695#asset

This radio interview with Paul Murray (may have been posted already) has lots of very interesting bits...D&P not playing with straight bat if you take from what Murray says....

Also very interesting that Europe income was totaly crucial to thier business plan cash flow...and in effect he is saying any NewCo = none for 3 years (which is why they were only going for CVA) and that in effect he can't see finances working without it.....

It just gets more ridiculous....so not only do they need to be in SPL...BUT they need Champs league income for it to work....they are royaly busted if thats the sand they are built on....

I get the impression that Paul Murray thinks that Rangers need to be strong and competitive, whereas Bill Murray will cut back the squad to the bare bones, anything to turn a profit. The latter obviously doesnae fit in with their perceived place in the footballing world :greengrin

[greenginger]

http://www.sfo.gov.uk/fraud/what-is-fraud/corporate-fraud/asset-stripping.aspx


I think this is the exact template of what Duff and Duffer are proposing the purchaser of Rangers F C in Administration should do. Great when Officers of the Court are actively encouraging fraud.

There is a report suspected fraud Tel Number if anyone on here feels incensed enough to give them a call. :agree:

[TheEastTerrace]

Another thought on this.

The board members want the full vote because they fear reprisals against their clubs - presumably from Rangers fans. That suggests they did not intend to just rubber-stamp a newco's entry into the SPL after all. Encouraging if that is the case.

BTW, I thought there were six members on the board including someone from Celtc. The report only mentions five.

:agree:

Sandy Jardine basically threatened sanctions on the other SPL clubs who would be deemed to be 'unfair on Rangers'.

[CropleyWasGod]

Another thought on this.

The board members want the full vote because they fear reprisals against their clubs - presumably from Rangers fans. That suggests they did not intend to just rubber-stamp a newco's entry into the SPL after all. Encouraging if that is the case.

BTW, I thought there were six members on the board including someone from Celtc. The report only mentions five.

I shared your optimism when I read the article too.

Also, yeah, I thought there were six on the board... and that Butch Topping would have the casting vote if it were tied.

[Kojock]

Another thought on this.

The board members want the full vote because they fear reprisals against their clubs - presumably from Rangers fans. That suggests they did not intend to just rubber-stamp a newco's entry into the SPL after all. Encouraging if that is the case.

BTW, I thought there were six members on the board including someone from Celtc. The report only mentions five.


OR

The board members want the full vote because they fear reprisals against their clubs - presumably from other SPL Clubs Chairmen and fans. That suggests they did intend to just rubber-stamp a newco's entry into the SPL after all. Not encouraging if that is the case.

[down-the-slope]

Sorry but how can a club with 50,000 paying supporters not at the least break even without a substantial pot of European money?

So Paul Murray has learned squat from the Whyte / Leeds United plan, and he's complaining his bid wasn't chosen? What nonsense!

Post CVA / liquidation, as long wages are kept under turnover I don't see how it would be difficult to have them turning at least a small profit.

But that is the point...current spending is way beyond income (without Euro income) so either keeping this income / investing millions to cover this deficit / cutting costs (dumping most of current squad and replacing with cheaper alternatives) are the 3 options...

NewCo means can't keep income / BK admitting they dont have cash to burn to fill 3 year gap (Does will Buffalo Bill?) / third option the fans (who don't do walking away) wont stomach.....

[down-the-slope]

I get the impression that Paul Murray thinks that Rangers need to be strong and competitive, whereas Bill Murray will cut back the squad to the bare bones, anything to turn a profit. The latter obviously doesnae fit in with their perceived place in the footballing world :greengrin


:agree:....I predict Buffalo Bill won't see it through...and we will see BK back...but that would mean a long drawn out affair with Rangers suffering more sanctions etc

[Caversham Green]

OR

The board members want the full vote because they fear reprisals against their clubs - presumably from other SPL Clubs Chairmen and fans. That suggests they did intend to just rubber-stamp a newco's entry into the SPL after all. Not encouraging if that is the case.

But that would suggest that the other clubs are against newco's entry, and they are now getting a vote. And the Rangers fans (egged on by employees of the club) are the only ones who have openly threatened 'sanctions' against anyone.

At least it's going to a full vote which has to be the right thing IMO. Does anyone know what the majority needs to be? This is one area where I think it should be unanimous - i.e. 11-1.

[BEEJ]

Now let me guess, that would be Doncaster?

The SPL clubs will have to have a say on this.

Doncaster spent half of last season reporting that the SPL were on the point of agreeing to the 10-club league setup despite the fact that several clubs were not prepared to sign up.

To be honest if Doncaster reported that Hibs were to play Hearts in the Scottish Cup final I would question if this was true. He is very untrustworthy indeed.
:agree: Agreed.

Master of the positive soundbite and of making patronising, simplistic statements to the media, he always comes across as someone who hasn't the faintest grasp of the complex situations he's tasked with handling.

He does, however, appear to possess a level of confidence in his own abilities that is remarkable for someone quite so incompetent.


This bit interests me:

In the recent radio discussion Doncaster was very evasive about whether the new contract contained a 'four OF games' clause but openly admitted that the old one did. This suggests that the new one doesn't and Doncaster has been scaremongering. I think his position is close to becoming untenable.
In any normal profession, that would certainly be the case. Here's hoping the clock is ticking for him.

[down-the-slope]

OR

The board members want the full vote because they fear reprisals against their clubs - presumably from other SPL Clubs Chairmen and fans. That suggests they did intend to just rubber-stamp a newco's entry into the SPL after all. Not encouraging if that is the case.

OR....Topping & Doncaster have 'suggested' this senario...as they know they will get pelters if they are back in too easy and they are part of vote...and are relying on self interest of enough of SPL chairmen to get their way in wider vote...while they don't get blame....:rolleyes:

[cad]

When is the bell going to ring in all this ,no more answers put your pens down ,we will give you a result shortly ,whens D day .
The best way to described Rangers IMO is that they are troublesome keek that just wont go away no matter how many times you flush ,but through time eventually it does go you just got to keep battering it with the appropriate chemicals ,:agree:

[Kojock]

:agree:....I predict Buffalo Bill won't see it through...and we will see BK back


I go with this as well. :wink:

[MrSmith]

Key Criteria:

Serious Fraud Office [SFO] criteria SFO's criteria for taking on a case
By law we can investigate only those cases where there is evidence to show that serious or complex fraud, and corruption has taken place.
To determine the seriousness and complexity of a particular matter then it may be useful to ask yourself the following questions:
The key factors we consider before taking on a case:


Does the value of the alleged fraud exceed £1 million?
Is there a significant international dimension?
Is the case likely to be of widespread public concern?
Does the case require highly specialised knowledge, e.g. of financial markets?
Is there a need to use the SFO's special powers, such as Section 2 of the Criminal Justice Act?

Serious and complex: what do we look for?
In addition to the above criteria we look for factors such as:
Is it serious?


Whether the fraud will impact on the integrity of the financial market
Whether there is a wider group than shareholders or creditors who have lost money as a result of the alleged fraud
Whether the fraudsters have targeted financial institutions and government (local or central) or other public serving authorities

Is it complex?


Whether the case involves multiple countries
Whether the evidential material to be obtained during the course of the investigation will be found in multiple locations (within the UK or in other countries)
Whether the case involves multiple and complex financial transactions - e.g. involving many companies, accounts, Trusts and countries
Whether the investigation will need to involve a large accountancy analysis

If your case of fraud fits the above criteria then please submit as much information as possible, in total confidence, at:
https://report.sfo.gov.uk/sfo-confidential---provide-information-in-confidence.aspx (https://report.sfo.gov.uk/sfo-confidential---provide-information-in-confidence.aspx)
or contact us directly through our SFO Confidential hotline on 0207 239 7388.

[jgl07]

I get the impression that Paul Murray thinks that Rangers need to be strong and competitive, whereas Bill Murray will cut back the squad to the bare bones, anything to turn a profit. The latter obviously doesnae fit in with their perceived place in the footballing world :greengrin

I think you have one Murray too many?

Unless it is groundhog day?

[calmac12000]

Was just channel hopping and had the misfortune to come across ESPN's eulogy to Rangers' "history" que Bill Struth etc.. In a truly amazing inversion of reality the viewer was asked to all but pray for the suffering of poor innocent Rangers fans.. Then we move to shots of Super Ally a nice weans- Jesus I'm gonna puke!

[Eyrie]

I get the impression that Paul Murray thinks that Rangers need to be strong and competitive, whereas Bill Murray will cut back the squad to the bare bones, anything to turn a profit. The latter obviously doesnae fit in with their perceived place in the footballing world :greengrin

The rest of the SPL manages to cope without any guarantees of money for playing in Europe, so with 50,000 fans every second week the Huns would be more than competitive. Wild Bill Pickup seems to realise this even if the Barren Knights don't.

[ancienthibby]

The rest of the SPL manages to cope without any guarantees of money for playing in Europe, so with 50,000 fans every second week the Huns would be more than competitive. Wild Bill Pickup seems to realise this even if the Barren Knights don't.


Don't think so!

This is one thing 'wee bulging eyes' got right!:agree:

The overheads at Greyskull are far too high and as WBE said, there needs to be cuts of around £1 million a month to make the books balance.

Without money from Europe (critical) there will massive cuts to the wage bill (including that of Sally McWattie Junior) and hordes from the backroom staff (does a club really need 25 folks in PR??)

(Not that it has seemingly any value to all the newco RFC folks and pundits but let's remember the 100+ names on the unpaid creditors list, including you and me, the taxpayers, who might get a penny in the pound from RFC and Wild Bill made no mention of that in his statement!!:rolleyes:)

[BarneyK]

[/B]

Don't think so!

This is one thing 'wee bulging eyes' got right!:agree:

The overheads at Greyskull are far too high and as WBE said, there needs to be cuts of around £1 million a month to make the books balance.

Without money from Europe (critical) there will massive cuts to the wage bill (including that of Sally McWattie Junior) and hordes from the backroom staff (does a club really need 25 folks in PR??)

(Not that it has seemingly any value to all the newco RFC folks and pundits but let's remember the 100+ names on the unpaid creditors list, including you and me, the taxpayers, who might get a penny in the pound from RFC and Wild Bill made no mention of that in his statement!!:rolleyes:)

They could certainly inhabit the same planet as the rest of us fairly easily. The only problem with this is that it doesn't produce success and Rangers don't do a lack of success. They're a special case, don't you know. A debt free Rangers should theoretically manage just as well as Celtic, shouldn't it?

[BarneyK]

I think you have one Murray too many?

Unless it is groundhog day?

Groundhog Day is very likely unfortunately :greengrin Ah, you knew who I meant... :wink:

[HFC 0-7]

But that would suggest that the other clubs are against newco's entry, and they are now getting a vote. And the Rangers fans (egged on by employees of the club) are the only ones who have openly threatened 'sanctions' against anyone.

At least it's going to a full vote which has to be the right thing IMO. Does anyone know what the majority needs to be? This is one area where I think it should be unanimous - i.e. 11-1.

I read the statement as they were thinking of rubber stamping the Newco's entry back into the SPL but their own fans could be very annoyed with their own chairmen for giving it the OK. If it goes to all chairmen and its a majority wins we will probably never know who voted for what.

[Just Alf]

When is the bell going to ring in all this ,no more answers put your pens down ,we will give you a result shortly ,whens D day .
The best way to described Rangers IMO is that they are troublesome keek that just wont go away no matter how many times you flush ,but through time eventually it does go you just got to keep battering it with the appropriate chemicals ,:agree:

A big stick can work as a last resort!

[Caversham Green]

I read the statement as they were thinking of rubber stamping the Newco's entry back into the SPL but their own fans could be very annoyed with their own chairmen for giving it the OK. If it goes to all chairmen and its a majority wins we will probably never know who voted for what.

The report says they feared that their clubs 'could have been singled out'. That suggests to me that it would be other fans, not their own that would be taking 'sanctions', so it would either be Rangers fans annoyed at them taking the honourable course of action or fans of other clubs annoyed at them disgracing Scottish football even more.

[HFC 0-7]

The report says they feared that their clubs 'could have been singled out'. That suggests to me that it would be other fans, not their own that would be taking 'sanctions', so it would either be Rangers fans annoyed at them taking the honourable course of action or fans of other clubs annoyed at them disgracing Scottish football even more.

I would say probably the latter, they probably requested all clubs to be involved in the decision so that it can be seen as a combined decision by all clubs. Most of the chairmen IMO dont care that this could be a chance to move the game forward for the better, they will see it as the start of a very difficult financial period which they may need to partly fund themselves. I just dont think a lot of the chairmen fancy the posibility of a struggle financially.

[Brebners Bookie]

Dont know if this has been posted yet but Alex Thomson ( this is what a real journalist does Traynor) is saying exactly what the majority of fans in scotland feel.

The two videos are great.

http://www.channel4.com/news/miller-named-as-rangers-preferred-bidder

It feels so weird to hear a journo asking difficult, probing questions in our world of chics, jims and billys.

"I'll tell you why it looks like a massive tax dodge, because you could continue to play in the SPL much as you were before, with very few sanctions, and other clubs that have been run properly could face relegation."

[BarneyK]

Kilmarnock chairman Michael Johnston
"We need more clarity on Bill Miller's plan for Rangers and how it will it structured.

"There is a feeling that member clubs see the commercial benefits of having Rangers in SPL, even if it is a newco.

"Member clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect but the commercial benefits outweigh that."


Shockeroony :cb

[ScottB]

[/B]

Don't think so!

This is one thing 'wee bulging eyes' got right!:agree:

The overheads at Greyskull are far too high and as WBE said, there needs to be cuts of around £1 million a month to make the books balance.

Without money from Europe (critical) there will massive cuts to the wage bill (including that of Sally McWattie Junior) and hordes from the backroom staff (does a club really need 25 folks in PR??)

(Not that it has seemingly any value to all the newco RFC folks and pundits but let's remember the 100+ names on the unpaid creditors list, including you and me, the taxpayers, who might get a penny in the pound from RFC and Wild Bill made no mention of that in his statement!!:rolleyes:)

Don't tell me you seriously expect the Daily Record to write it's own stories do you? :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Kilmarnock chairman Michael Johnston
"We need more clarity on Bill Miller's plan for Rangers and how it will it structured.

"There is a feeling that member clubs see the commercial benefits of having Rangers in SPL, even if it is a newco.

"Member clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect but the commercial benefits outweigh that."


Shockeroony :cb

That is the same Kilmarnock chairman that gave over 3 stands to Celtc supporters for their League winning party. :cb


Commercial benefits only outweigh sporting integrity when you are so poorly supported that you have to whore yourself to the old firm, even if it means a newco old firm :rolleyes:

[SurferRosa]

:agree:

Sandy Jardine basically threatened sanctions on the other SPL clubs who would be deemed to be 'unfair on Rangers'.

:agree:

Threats incidentally which we are still waiting for him to be hauled up for. If calling for supporters to boycott other member clubs isn`t bringing the game into disrepute, i dont know what is....

...or it might just be something else to sweep under the carpet..

[ScottB]

Kilmarnock chairman Michael Johnston"We need more clarity on Bill Miller's plan for Rangers and how it will it structured.
"There is a feeling that member clubs see the commercial benefits of having Rangers in SPL, even if it is a newco.
"Member clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect but the commercial benefits outweigh that."


Well if that's the case the game will die.

I made this case to a couple Gers fans at work last night, to be fair, they reckon the club deserves everything it gets, but are sure it won't happen. However they wouldn't accept my point that keeping them in the SPL at all costs will kill the game dead. I think they expect us all to just forget about it and carry on.

If this happens you are basically saying Rangers and presumably Celtic can do whatever they like, duck their taxes, spend money they don't have, outright cheat, and their league status is guaranteed no matter what, while the rest of us carry on trying to put squads together on shoestrings within the same rules that everyone and everything else have to live by.

If the other chairmen follow Johnston's desire to suck on the old firm cash **** then the SPL and everything in it deserve what's coming to them. We shall see how much commercial benefit he has in the 34 games a season there's nobody in his stadium.

[Onion]

Kilmarnock chairman Michael Johnston
"We need more clarity on Bill Miller's plan for Rangers and how it will it structured.

"There is a feeling that member clubs see the commercial benefits of having Rangers in SPL, even if it is a newco.

"Member clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect but the commercial benefits outweigh that."


Shockeroony :cb

Jees, I can't believe he said that. This is like watching the Nazis walk in to Poland. If sporting integrity is no longer important (and can be bought like any commodity) WHERE do you draw the line or is there no line ? What if the Huns were paying off referees would that be a step to far for Killie ? What if the Huns insisted on Killie throwing a game for a wedge of cash - would that be ok with Mr Johnston ? This is no man of integrity and should be no where near any business let along Scottish Football.

Manic Street Preachers - If you tolerate this then your children will be next.

[Hibrandenburg]

Kilmarnock chairman Michael Johnston
"We need more clarity on Bill Miller's plan for Rangers and how it will it structured.

"There is a feeling that member clubs see the commercial benefits of having Rangers in SPL, even if it is a newco.

"Member clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect but the commercial benefits outweigh that."


Shockeroony :cb

What a spineless wart. That's another nail in the coffin of Scottish Football.

I'm so glad my son is only 3, there's still a chance to undo the brainwashing and try and get him interested in a sport with integrity. If all this comes to pass as I fear it will, then I refuse to fill the SPL's coffers with any of my cash ever again.

[Onion]

I would say probably the latter, they probably requested all clubs to be involved in the decision so that it can be seen as a combined decision by all clubs. Most of the chairmen IMO dont care that this could be a chance to move the game forward for the better, they will see it as the start of a very difficult financial period which they may need to partly fund themselves. I just dont think a lot of the chairmen fancy the posibility of a struggle financially.

Like a firing squad where there is always one blank bullet. Everyone can say, it wasn't us who did the deed :confused:

Do these chairmen and clubs actually know what they are doing and the fall out that will come their way if the Huns are given a free pass into the SPL ? Every one of them will be named and shamed as the people who effectively KILLED a national sport. Their names should be carved in stone - starting with Johnston of Kilmarnock FC.

[Spike Mandela]

Kilmarnock chairman Michael Johnston
"We need more clarity on Bill Miller's plan for Rangers and how it will it structured.

"There is a feeling that member clubs see the commercial benefits of having Rangers in SPL, even if it is a newco.

"Member clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect but the commercial benefits outweigh that."


Shockeroony :cb

If Rod Petrie said something like that I would be calling on him to resign immediately.

[matty_f]

If Rod Petrie said something like that I would be calling on him to resign immediately.

:agree: It's a horrible sentiment and if football doesn't hold sporting integrity as its fundamental priority then there's no point in any of us going. We'd be as well going to the wrestling.

Can anyone remember Petrie's wording of the point he made on the tv debate, sure that referred to a need for sporting integrity. Hope he has the baws to stand firm to that principle.

[greenginger]

:agree: It's a horrible sentiment and if football doesn't hold sporting integrity as its fundamental priority then there's no point in any of us going. We'd be as well going to the wrestling.

Can anyone remember Petrie's wording of the point he made on the tv debate, sure that referred to a need for sporting integrity. Hope he has the baws to stand firm to that principle.


The host put the question to Petrie.

" Does Scottish Football need a strong Rangers

Petrie's answer was , " What Scottish Football needs is sporting integrity "

Lets hope he sticks to it and convinces any waverers before the vote.

[Spike Mandela]

The host put the question to Petrie.

" Does Scottish Football need a strong Rangers

Petrie's answer was , " What Scottish Football needs is sporting integrity "

Lets hope he sticks to it and convinces any waverers before the vote.

The SPL need all teams in a strong financial position but without sporting integrity it isn't a sport it's just a money making machine. We'd all be as well to start supporting Tescos or Morrisons.

Sometimes it would be nice to see the authorities in this country do the RIGHT thing and not just make the commercial decision.

[Saorsa]

Kilmarnock chairman Michael Johnston
"We need more clarity on Bill Miller's plan for Rangers and how it will it structured.

"There is a feeling that member clubs see the commercial benefits of having Rangers in SPL, even if it is a newco.

"Member clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect but the commercial benefits outweigh that."


Shockeroony :cbwhat a cowardly spineless weasel. One vote in the bag from an OF http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b168/jamie1971/smilies%202/lick2.gif

Dinnae forget yer vaseline Johnston http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b168/jamie1971/smilies%202/buttsex.gif


If Rod Petrie said something like that I would be calling on him to resign immediately.:agree:

[killie-hibby]

:agree: It's a horrible sentiment and if football doesn't hold sporting integrity as its fundamental priority then there's no point in any of us going. We'd be as well going to the wrestling.

Can anyone remember Petrie's wording of the point he made on the tv debate, sure that referred to a need for sporting integrity. Hope he has the baws to stand firm to that principle.


The chairperson on the debate was going round asking "does the SPL need Rangers?). Houston replied "yes, the SPL needs a STRONG Rangers".
Petrie was asked the same question. He ignored the question and went on to say the SPL requires sporting integrity. My understanding of Petries statement was that sporting integrity was more of a priority than Rangers being in the SPL. Petrie and Pressley were the only participants in the debate who were not sycophantic towards Rangers.

[Lofarl]

It looks like we are being stitched up. If this happens I will be getting a refund for my ST. You can call me every name under the sun. I will be done with this charade of a league. Chairmen seem to think that most people will still go, it's in the blood ain't it. Wrong. I was not raised a fool and I sense a mugs game. Hibs could collapse and go bust for all I would care about them. If our club as a sporting institution back these proposals, hell even if they do not and this newco are brought back in, I'm done.

I have followed this team since 1986. I have saw some right duff games in my time and some of the best. I have spent thousands of pounds on this club, I have endured god awful cold nights up in Aberdeen, Inverness etc with nothing to show for it bar a cold. But this would be the breaking point for me.

[smurf]

As a club we need to be seen in fighting to retain sporting integrity. Otherwise we will lose fans.

[Kaiser1962]

If Rod Petrie said something like that I would be calling on him to resign immediately.


As would I Spike. :agree:


The host put the question to Petrie.

" Does Scottish Football need a strong Rangers

Petrie's answer was , " What Scottish Football needs is sporting integrity "

Lets hope he sticks to it and convinces any waverers before the vote.



Thankfully Rod does not have a history of changing his view to suit anybody other than Hibs. This is one occassion when I would welcome his bloody minded intransigence.

[Mon Dieu4]

Whoever that hack is on sportscene he is a chunt and also said that commercial aspects should out weigh integrity, i dispare

[Barney McGrew]

Can anyone remember Petrie's wording of the point he made on the tv debate, sure that referred to a need for sporting integrity. Hope he has the baws to stand firm to that principle.

I don't doubt for one second that he will stand firm.

Unfortunately, as Jonston has demonstrated already today, there will be plenty of others that will bend over and let themselves be rogered by NewHunCo for the sake of a few quid twice a season.

What the daftie won't have factored in is that they'll have another sixteen or seventeen home games to play that they'll lose even more income from if away fans decided to boycott Killie in protest to his stance.

[Beefster]

Kilmarnock chairman Michael Johnston
"We need more clarity on Bill Miller's plan for Rangers and how it will it structured.

"There is a feeling that member clubs see the commercial benefits of having Rangers in SPL, even if it is a newco.

"Member clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect but the commercial benefits outweigh that."


Shockeroony :cb

That's that then. As soon as 'the Ten' split (assuming that they don't all feel the same way), the SPL and SFA have a mandate to let Rangers off with a light tap on the hand.

Clubs like Killie should be trying to attract more of their own fans instead of relying on the Bigots to make up the shortfall.

[cabbageandribs1875]

If Rod Petrie said something like that I would be calling on him to resign immediately.



i'm quite sure that sir rod will have the same opinion as the killie chairman....every SPL chairman will be the same, i(and others) have thought all along that the buns will be in the SPL next season and will finish either 1st...or 2nd.....no change, our only hope of any serious damage to them will be the law/hector, the SPL have no f****n morals/integrity whatsoever, not where money is concerned, cash IS king END OF



'kin sickening

[Part/Time Supporter]

Thankfully Rod does not have a history of changing his view to suit anybody other than Hibs. This is one occassion when I would welcome his bloody minded intransigence.

I hope and think that Rod will stick with that line. Hibs' circumstances (debt, fanbase) are much different from Killie's. The problem he's got is if he's outvoted. How does he sell that?

[Spike Mandela]

I hope and think that Rod will stick with that line. Hibs' circumstances (debt, fanbase) are much different from Killie's. The problem he's got is if he's outvoted. How does he sell that?

He'll have to do a '12 Angry men' speech and appeal to their sense of justice and fairness. I can hear it now " gentlemen without sporting integrity we don't have a sport and we don't have integrity......."

[Eyrie]

I hope and think that Rod will stick with that line. Hibs' circumstances (debt, fanbase) are much different from Killie's. The problem he's got is if he's outvoted. How does he sell that?
Hopefully by ignoring the principle of collective responsibility and coming out with a statement that he voted against letting NewHunCo get away with it. A few thousand baying bigots boycotting Easter Road in retaliation is something we can live with.

[Jim44]

As would I Spike. :agree:





Thankfully Rod does not have a history of changing his view to suit anybody other than Hibs. This is one occassion when I would welcome his bloody minded intransigence..


........... and I hope that in due course, Petrie will tell us how he/Hibs voted. Further to the Killie chairman giving a vote of confidence, his manager, ten minutes ago, said in an interview, "Let's stop all this talk about Rangers being in the 3rd division. We all know they will definitely be in the SPL next season.". It wasn't said in a way that implied he was unhappy about it.

[LeithBoozy]

Rules for some teams, no rules for others, they are going to kill the game up here. :rolleyes:

[Just Alf]

One of my mates at work's Killie fan. He's just said

"that's no more home games then, if your lot vote against them then at least I can watch Killie there"

He went on to say he'll be a travelling supporter but only to the teams that also voted against.....

Do these directors/pundits etc not realise?

We don't bl**dy care if our team needs to recut its cloth financially, sporting integrity is most important.... I'm getting so hacked off at listening to the radio and hearing pundits going on about how other teams will lose out as if they're on our bloody side and it's just we're too stupid to realise!!!!!!

[tamig]

It looks like we are being stitched up. If this happens I will be getting a refund for my ST. You can call me every name under the sun. I will be done with this charade of a league. Chairmen seem to think that most people will still go, it's in the blood ain't it. Wrong. I was not raised a fool and I sense a mugs game. Hibs could collapse and go bust for all I would care about them. If our club as a sporting institution back these proposals, hell even if they do not and this newco are brought back in, I'm done.

I have followed this team since 1986. I have saw some right duff games in my time and some of the best. I have spent thousands of pounds on this club, I have endured god awful cold nights up in Aberdeen, Inverness etc with nothing to show for it bar a cold. But this would be the breaking point for me.

I've deliberately held off renewing until I see what the outcome of the hun fiasco is.

[KB1]

The thing I would like to see is this, Monday's game looks like it will have the largest hibs support of the season, how difficult would it be to have a member of staff at each turnstile asking the fans, "do you think rangers should be allowed back into SPL" a simple yes or no answer is all that's required, then collate the answers and Petrie votes with the majority view!

[Jim44]

The thing I would like to see is this, Monday's game looks like it will have the largest hibs support of the season, how difficult would it be to have a member of staff at each turnstile asking the fans, "do you think rangers should be allowed back into SPL" a simple yes or no answer is all that's required, then collate the answers and Petrie votes with the majority view!

How very civil and democratic. But don't fool yourself that club chairmen will care about the fans' views far less consult them.

[ScottB]

How very civil and democratic. But don't fool yourself that club chairmen will care about the fans' views far less consult them.

I'd say in this case it's more do the Chairman believe that the fans will walk away in disgust and never come back, or do they think they'll be angry but ultimately keep turning up.

I doubt there are any Chairman among the 11 other clubs who reckon their fans will be happy about it.

[Ozyhibby]

I think Monday could be the most important day for Scottish football ever. If the other eleven clubs vote to transfer rangers old membership to a new club without making it work it's way through the leagues like Ross county have done then any pretence at sporting integrity is gone. I can't see why anyone would bother to support any other team in the league knowing that your team are just there to make up the numbers in an old firm league.
My boy has just started playing for Spartans so I may just start taking him down to watch their senior team. Maybe the odd trip to an EPL game.
The level of cheating by Rangers over a ten year period is worthy of complete expulsion from the SFA, yet the clubs are willing to allow them to carry on without punishment. It really is shameful.
What will Hibs do? So far the silence is deafening. I personally believe that we will vote for admitting the new club directly into the SPL and if that's the case then we really will be a nothing club and withdrawing my support and that of my two sons will be an easy decision.
I'm afraid to say that Hampden may be my last game. It would at least be nice to go out on a high. GGTTH

[PatHead]

Can't believe Doncaster was blogging this in March when Hearts didn't pay wages. What a hypocrite!!!!!!!!!

CEO Blog


http://www.hibs.net/images/registerrop.gifFinancial Fair Play

Football and finance have often sat uneasily together. But with some of our clubs under intense financial pressure, it is no surprise that questions about ‘financial fair play’ have once again been raised in the context of Scottish football.

Crucial to an understanding of financial fair play, is an appreciation of why it is vital that clubs live within their means. This blog is an attempt to set out what is meant by ‘financial fair play’, and why prompt payment of players, the taxman and other member clubs is so important to football as a whole.

‘Financial fair play’ is a phrase that is often trotted out in football circles. It was one of 11 key values presented by UEFA President Michel Platini to the 2009 UEFA Congress. Its stated aim was to “restore well-being to the European club game”.

But what does ‘financial fair play’ really mean? UEFA’s explanation, in 2010, was that the concept would require clubs to balance their books over the medium term, not spend more than they earn, and operate within their financial means.

This is all seen as important for one key reason: because any club that is spending more on players than they can afford, is automatically gaining a sporting advantage over every other club it competes with. Whether the precise system of measurement used by UEFA is perfect is a moot point. But the logic behind the principle however is, I think, broadly sound. And it is this same principle that explains the position of the SPL.

To turn a blind eye, to allow clubs to continually fail to make prompt payments as they fall due, would be to allow those clubs to gain an unfair sporting advantage over all those other clubs that pay their players, the taxman and other clubs on time. That is one of the reasons why, whenever the SPL receives a request from players to adjudicate on their contracts, it has a duty to do so.

The fundamental basis of any football league is that all member clubs are treated equally. But, increasingly, leagues across the world are going further. In England, for example, the Football League routinely imposes a player embargo on clubs who fail to pay their players in full and on time. And, in League Two, clubs have accepted limits on the amounts that they can spend, relative to their income.

The whole issue of ‘financial fair play’ will no doubt continue to be developed across the whole of football. In the meantime, it is vital that the Scottish Premier League continue to treat all member clubs even-handedly.

It may put the SPL in the uncomfortable position of having to rule against member clubs in certain instances. Whenever we are requested by professional players to adjudicate on their contracts, for example, we should continue to do so. And, where appropriate, to rule in the players’ favour and to make orders for on-time payment by our member clubs.

The integrity of the entire League – and the long-term interests of all 12 member clubs within it – demands that we do just that.

More widely though, it is important that we keep the whole issue of financial fair play firmly in the spotlight. Improving our rule book (http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/SPL%20Rules%20as%20at%2019-Dec-11%20(CURRENT).pdf) and making it less likely that our member clubs end up in financial difficulty in the first place should continue to be a priority. And with this in mind, all 12 SPL member clubs will meet this Monday. On the agenda will be our existing rules on financial fair play and whether our current rule book needs improvement in the face of the financial challenges being faced by several member clubs.

If agreement in principle is reached, this could mean our clubs voting on new, tougher, rules on financial fair play at a general meeting, either in April or July this year. It will be a difficult debate. But it is vital that we do not shy away from these issues or bury our heads in the sand.

It may be uncomfortable to address these thorny problems head-on. But the long-term health and prosperity of Scottish football demands that we do just that.

Neil Doncaster
Chief Executive, Scottish Premier League

[calmac12000]

I can categorically state that after thirty five years of attending Scottish football matches and being treated like sh*t for the vast majority of that tim if the Huns are re-admitted into the SPL hopefully watching Hibernian winning the Scottish Cup will be the last time I spend any money on the SPL's sub-standard and rigged product.

[Twa Cairpets]

I think Monday could be the most important day for Scottish football ever. If the other eleven clubs vote to transfer rangers old membership to a new club without making it work it's way through the leagues like Ross county have done then any pretence at sporting integrity is gone. I can't see why anyone would bother to support any other team in the league knowing that your team are just there to make up the numbers in an old firm league.
My boy has just started playing for Spartans so I may just start taking him down to watch their senior team. Maybe the odd trip to an EPL game.
The level of cheating by Rangers over a ten year period is worthy of complete expulsion from the SFA, yet the clubs are willing to allow them to carry on without punishment. It really is shameful.
What will Hibs do? So far the silence is deafening. I personally believe that we will vote for admitting the new club directly into the SPL and if that's the case then we really will be a nothing club and withdrawing my support and that of my two sons will be an easy decision.
I'm afraid to say that Hampden may be my last game. It would at least be nice to go out on a high. GGTTH

I think its the only way they can be.The Killie guy is being a classless lickspittle, and to state a position beofre a position by the SPL is discussed is appalling.

[Wat Dabney]

I can categorically state that after thirty five years of attending Scottish football matches and being treated like sh*t for the vast majority of that tim if the Huns are re-admitted into the SPL hopefully watching Hibernian winning the Scottish Cup will be the last time I spend any money on the SPL's sub-standard and rigged product.

I feel the same. I emailed Hibs saying that I wouldn't be back if I thought Hibs were complicit in letting RFC back in. Got the standard reply saying that I'd be hurting Hibs not RFC - don't think they understand the feelings of the Hibs fans. Still haven't renewed even though I needed more tickets for cup final. Looks more and more likely that I won't be back. Shame.

[carnoustiehibee]

@michaelmcp: Great call on SSB. Caller had panel gazumped when asked them to name one relegated SPL side who went bust, afterall no OF revenue or tv cash

[Jim44]

If this farce pans out as most seem to think it will, can I suggest that as well as voting with their feet as far as SPL matches are concerned, the fans extend it also to a boycott of international matches involving the Scottish team.

[Saorsa]

I can categorically state that after thirty five years of attending Scottish football matches and being treated like sh*t for the vast majority of that tim if the Huns are re-admitted into the SPL hopefully watching Hibernian winning the Scottish Cup will be the last time I spend any money on the SPL's sub-standard and rigged product.Same here :agree: In the 30+ years I've been supporting Hibs and attending games things have always been stacked in favour of the OF and particularly so since the inception of the SPL but this is something else. If they get away with this and start as a newco in the SPL next season, that will be the end of the road for me and Scottish fitba. I have no intention of puting another penny into some so blatantly corrupt and morally bankrupt.

[Ozyhibby]

I feel the same. I emailed Hibs saying that I wouldn't be back if I thought Hibs were complicit in letting RFC back in. Got the standard reply saying that I'd be hurting Hibs not RFC - don't think they understand the feelings of the Hibs fans. Still haven't renewed even though I needed more tickets for cup final. Looks more and more likely that I won't be back. Shame.

I think this is the problem. The club have totally failed to grasp the depth of feeling amongst the fans. Statements about fans not going back 'hurt Hibs more than Rangers' totally miss the point. It is now that we are trying to send a message to the club. This decision will be made on Monday. It will not be reversible. The fans who decide not to return will be gone forever. Most will be of the opinion that it does not matter how Hibs are hurt because Hibs will have committed sporting suicide anyway.
Hibs will have become like the guy who fights Big Daddy (showing my age) at the wrestling. Allowed to win a couple of rounds but Big Daddy always wins in the end.
Not something I'll be interested in.

[HFC 0-7]

Like a firing squad where there is always one blank bullet. Everyone can say, it wasn't us who did the deed :confused:

Do these chairmen and clubs actually know what they are doing and the fall out that will come their way if the Huns are given a free pass into the SPL ? Every one of them will be named and shamed as the people who effectively KILLED a national sport. Their names should be carved in stone - starting with Johnston of Kilmarnock FC.

I just think that most chairmen these days looks at immediate ways to maximise income or at least retain what they have. I think if we punished rangers now it could be the start of a more competative league and better run league, however, there would be a shortfall in cash for the first season or two if the TV deal gets revised and no income from rangers support. What would probably happen would be an increase of support through the turnstyles but it wouldnt be instant.

Most Chairmen wont want to deal with a shortfall in income whilst waiting for more fans coming through the gates and therefore will be happy to have Rangers and the TV deal and having a better understanding of their income. IMO, they are wanting 11 chairmen there so that they cant hide behind 'it was a majority of the SPL that wanted rangers Newco voted straight back in'.

[grunt]

Can't believe Doncaster was blogging this in March when Hearts didn't pay wages. What a hypocrite!!!!!!!!!


http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s109



That's a good find - we need to remind him of those words.

[jdships]

I can categorically state that after thirty five years of attending Scottish football matches and being treated like sh*t for the vast majority of that tim if the Huns are re-admitted into the SPL hopefully watching Hibernian winning the Scottish Cup will be the last time I spend any money on the SPL's sub-standard and rigged product.

:thumbsup:
You can add my name to that list!!
As an ex player , albeit a long time ago, I was quite proud that I had, although for only a couple of years, played at a decent level and contributed to the pleasure supporters got from following their team etc.. No massive wages / transfer fees , no prima donnas just guys giving it their best shot for a decent wage .
SPL Chairmen are now close to signing a " cheats charter" plus there is no integrity or moral fibre being shown by them .
Scottish Football RIP
I will watch rugby , amateur football on the Links /Inverleith Park but not a penny to SPL teams
:confused:

[EuanH78]

I feel the same. I emailed Hibs saying that I wouldn't be back if I thought Hibs were complicit in letting RFC back in. Got the standard reply saying that I'd be hurting Hibs not RFC - don't think they understand the feelings of the Hibs fans. Still haven't renewed even though I needed more tickets for cup final. Looks more and more likely that I won't be back. Shame.

I have also emailed Hibs and to be honest the replies I have had seem perfectly clear that they understood my point of view and when I add that to Rod Petrie's statements on that farcical debate I am convinced Hibs will be doing the right thing. Yes, I got the 'only be hurting Hibs by not renewing' part of the answer as well but thats still true, whether Rangers are there or not.

Think about it another way, Rod Petrie is a money man - We've all done the fag packet calculations on here and realised that actually, Rangers and the smelly hordes they bring dont actually make us that much money. RP isnt an idiot, whatever some of us think on here, 50 -60 grand isnt worth what's being sold and I am convinced he knows that too. More than most RP knows about cutting the coat according to the cloth and reckon we (Hibs) are probably one of the teams in the best shape to be able to do that. In fact we've spent the last 20 odd years getting to the position where we are now, the ideal position to put the boot right into these ****ers.

On another track, loving Alex Thomson's work, he looked/ sounded genuinely appalled at what was unravelling at Ibrox. Good on him, bout time we got some real journalism.

Edit: I would expect Hibs not to be giving much away at this point anyway to be honest, cards close to chest and all that.

[Dalkeith]

"Member clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect but the commercial benefits outweigh that."

cant believe that statement, can the clubs not see that the only clubs that will suffer are them as it wont affect the OF.

SPL will be laughing stock of world football

[Cheshire Hibee]

Can't believe Doncaster was blogging this in March when Hearts didn't pay wages. What a hypocrite!!!!!!!!!

CEO Blog


http://www.hibs.net/images/registerrop.gifFinancial Fair Play

Football and finance have often sat uneasily together. But with some of our clubs under intense financial pressure, it is no surprise that questions about ‘financial fair play’ have once again been raised in the context of Scottish football.

Crucial to an understanding of financial fair play, is an appreciation of why it is vital that clubs live within their means. This blog is an attempt to set out what is meant by ‘financial fair play’, and why prompt payment of players, the taxman and other member clubs is so important to football as a whole.

‘Financial fair play’ is a phrase that is often trotted out in football circles. It was one of 11 key values presented by UEFA President Michel Platini to the 2009 UEFA Congress. Its stated aim was to “restore well-being to the European club game”.

But what does ‘financial fair play’ really mean? UEFA’s explanation, in 2010, was that the concept would require clubs to balance their books over the medium term, not spend more than they earn, and operate within their financial means.

This is all seen as important for one key reason: because any club that is spending more on players than they can afford, is automatically gaining a sporting advantage over every other club it competes with. Whether the precise system of measurement used by UEFA is perfect is a moot point. But the logic behind the principle however is, I think, broadly sound. And it is this same principle that explains the position of the SPL.

To turn a blind eye, to allow clubs to continually fail to make prompt payments as they fall due, would be to allow those clubs to gain an unfair sporting advantage over all those other clubs that pay their players, the taxman and other clubs on time. That is one of the reasons why, whenever the SPL receives a request from players to adjudicate on their contracts, it has a duty to do so.

The fundamental basis of any football league is that all member clubs are treated equally. But, increasingly, leagues across the world are going further. In England, for example, the Football League routinely imposes a player embargo on clubs who fail to pay their players in full and on time. And, in League Two, clubs have accepted limits on the amounts that they can spend, relative to their income.

The whole issue of ‘financial fair play’ will no doubt continue to be developed across the whole of football. In the meantime, it is vital that the Scottish Premier League continue to treat all member clubs even-handedly.

It may put the SPL in the uncomfortable position of having to rule against member clubs in certain instances. Whenever we are requested by professional players to adjudicate on their contracts, for example, we should continue to do so. And, where appropriate, to rule in the players’ favour and to make orders for on-time payment by our member clubs.

The integrity of the entire League – and the long-term interests of all 12 member clubs within it – demands that we do just that.

More widely though, it is important that we keep the whole issue of financial fair play firmly in the spotlight. Improving our rule book (http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/SPL%20Rules%20as%20at%2019-Dec-11%20(CURRENT).pdf) and making it less likely that our member clubs end up in financial difficulty in the first place should continue to be a priority. And with this in mind, all 12 SPL member clubs will meet this Monday. On the agenda will be our existing rules on financial fair play and whether our current rule book needs improvement in the face of the financial challenges being faced by several member clubs.

If agreement in principle is reached, this could mean our clubs voting on new, tougher, rules on financial fair play at a general meeting, either in April or July this year. It will be a difficult debate. But it is vital that we do not shy away from these issues or bury our heads in the sand.

It may be uncomfortable to address these thorny problems head-on. But the long-term health and prosperity of Scottish football demands that we do just that.

Neil Doncaster
Chief Executive, Scottish Premier League





Great find any chance you can direct me as to where to find the original blog, I feel a mass email to all clubs maybe in order on behalf of splfansurvey.co.uk
:thumbsup:

[grunt]

Great find any chance you can direct me as to where to find the original blog, I feel a mass email to all clubs maybe in order on behalf of splfansurvey.co.uk
:thumbsup:

See post 6966.

[Jim44]

Can't believe Doncaster was blogging this in March when Hearts didn't pay wages. What a hypocrite!!!!!!!!!

CEO Blog


http://www.hibs.net/images/registerrop.gifFinancial Fair Play

Football and finance have often sat uneasily together. But with some of our clubs under intense financial pressure, it is no surprise that questions about ‘financial fair play’ have once again been raised in the context of Scottish football.

Crucial to an understanding of financial fair play, is an appreciation of why it is vital that clubs live within their means. This blog is an attempt to set out what is meant by ‘financial fair play’, and why prompt payment of players, the taxman and other member clubs is so important to football as a whole.

‘Financial fair play’ is a phrase that is often trotted out in football circles. It was one of 11 key values presented by UEFA President Michel Platini to the 2009 UEFA Congress. Its stated aim was to “restore well-being to the European club game”.

But what does ‘financial fair play’ really mean? UEFA’s explanation, in 2010, was that the concept would require clubs to balance their books over the medium term, not spend more than they earn, and operate within their financial means.

This is all seen as important for one key reason: because any club that is spending more on players than they can afford, is automatically gaining a sporting advantage over every other club it competes with. Whether the precise system of measurement used by UEFA is perfect is a moot point. But the logic behind the principle however is, I think, broadly sound. And it is this same principle that explains the position of the SPL.

To turn a blind eye, to allow clubs to continually fail to make prompt payments as they fall due, would be to allow those clubs to gain an unfair sporting advantage over all those other clubs that pay their players, the taxman and other clubs on time. That is one of the reasons why, whenever the SPL receives a request from players to adjudicate on their contracts, it has a duty to do so.

The fundamental basis of any football league is that all member clubs are treated equally. But, increasingly, leagues across the world are going further. In England, for example, the Football League routinely imposes a player embargo on clubs who fail to pay their players in full and on time. And, in League Two, clubs have accepted limits on the amounts that they can spend, relative to their income.

The whole issue of ‘financial fair play’ will no doubt continue to be developed across the whole of football. In the meantime, it is vital that the Scottish Premier League continue to treat all member clubs even-handedly.

It may put the SPL in the uncomfortable position of having to rule against member clubs in certain instances. Whenever we are requested by professional players to adjudicate on their contracts, for example, we should continue to do so. And, where appropriate, to rule in the players’ favour and to make orders for on-time payment by our member clubs.

The integrity of the entire League – and the long-term interests of all 12 member clubs within it – demands that we do just that.

More widely though, it is important that we keep the whole issue of financial fair play firmly in the spotlight. Improving our rule book (http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/SPL%20Rules%20as%20at%2019-Dec-11%20(CURRENT).pdf) and making it less likely that our member clubs end up in financial difficulty in the first place should continue to be a priority. And with this in mind, all 12 SPL member clubs will meet this Monday. On the agenda will be our existing rules on financial fair play and whether our current rule book needs improvement in the face of the financial challenges being faced by several member clubs.

If agreement in principle is reached, this could mean our clubs voting on new, tougher, rules on financial fair play at a general meeting, either in April or July this year. It will be a difficult debate. But it is vital that we do not shy away from these issues or bury our heads in the sand.

It may be uncomfortable to address these thorny problems head-on. But the long-term health and prosperity of Scottish football demands that we do just that.

Neil Doncaster
Chief Executive, Scottish Premier League





This is breathtakingly hypocritical and the absolute antithesis of the action we all expect this yesman to take in the not too distant future .......... The clearest example of lip-service I've heard in years.

[Sexton]

this might sound like mince, and probably something that couldn't happen too quickly. But, if the huns got emptied and the league got increased, would the extra home games have any compensation on the cash that might be lost from the loss of tv monies?

Just a thought really.

[Cheshire Hibee]

See post 6966.

Cheers just emailed Mr Doncaster reminding him of his blog with the link, and asked him to make sure he reminds the chairmen of the clubs of it before they make their decisions.

[erskine-hibby]

Can't believe Doncaster was blogging this in March when Hearts didn't pay wages. What a hypocrite!!!!!!!!!

CEO Blog


http://www.hibs.net/images/registerrop.gifFinancial Fair Play

Football and finance have often sat uneasily together. But with some of our clubs under intense financial pressure, it is no surprise that questions about ‘financial fair play’ have once again been raised in the context of Scottish football.

Crucial to an understanding of financial fair play, is an appreciation of why it is vital that clubs live within their means. This blog is an attempt to set out what is meant by ‘financial fair play’, and why prompt payment of players, the taxman and other member clubs is so important to football as a whole.

‘Financial fair play’ is a phrase that is often trotted out in football circles. It was one of 11 key values presented by UEFA President Michel Platini to the 2009 UEFA Congress. Its stated aim was to “restore well-being to the European club game”.

But what does ‘financial fair play’ really mean? UEFA’s explanation, in 2010, was that the concept would require clubs to balance their books over the medium term, not spend more than they earn, and operate within their financial means.

This is all seen as important for one key reason: because any club that is spending more on players than they can afford, is automatically gaining a sporting advantage over every other club it competes with. Whether the precise system of measurement used by UEFA is perfect is a moot point. But the logic behind the principle however is, I think, broadly sound. And it is this same principle that explains the position of the SPL.

To turn a blind eye, to allow clubs to continually fail to make prompt payments as they fall due, would be to allow those clubs to gain an unfair sporting advantage over all those other clubs that pay their players, the taxman and other clubs on time. That is one of the reasons why, whenever the SPL receives a request from players to adjudicate on their contracts, it has a duty to do so.

The fundamental basis of any football league is that all member clubs are treated equally. But, increasingly, leagues across the world are going further. In England, for example, the Football League routinely imposes a player embargo on clubs who fail to pay their players in full and on time. And, in League Two, clubs have accepted limits on the amounts that they can spend, relative to their income.

The whole issue of ‘financial fair play’ will no doubt continue to be developed across the whole of football. In the meantime, it is vital that the Scottish Premier League continue to treat all member clubs even-handedly.

It may put the SPL in the uncomfortable position of having to rule against member clubs in certain instances. Whenever we are requested by professional players to adjudicate on their contracts, for example, we should continue to do so. And, where appropriate, to rule in the players’ favour and to make orders for on-time payment by our member clubs.

The integrity of the entire League – and the long-term interests of all 12 member clubs within it – demands that we do just that.

More widely though, it is important that we keep the whole issue of financial fair play firmly in the spotlight. Improving our rule book (http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/SPL%20Rules%20as%20at%2019-Dec-11%20(CURRENT).pdf) and making it less likely that our member clubs end up in financial difficulty in the first place should continue to be a priority. And with this in mind, all 12 SPL member clubs will meet this Monday. On the agenda will be our existing rules on financial fair play and whether our current rule book needs improvement in the face of the financial challenges being faced by several member clubs.

If agreement in principle is reached, this could mean our clubs voting on new, tougher, rules on financial fair play at a general meeting, either in April or July this year. It will be a difficult debate. But it is vital that we do not shy away from these issues or bury our heads in the sand.

It may be uncomfortable to address these thorny problems head-on. But the long-term health and prosperity of Scottish football demands that we do just that.


Except if your name is Rangers

Neil Doncaster
Chief Executive, Scottish Premier League





Fixed it for him.:rolleyes:

[Saorsa]

Cheers just emailed Mr Doncaster reminding him of his blog with the link, and asked him to make sure he reminds the chairmen of the clubs of it before they make their decisions.why no e-mail it tae them as well? Would you trust that slime ball tae dae it?

Doncaster = OF stooge

[jgl07]

this might sound like mince, and probably something that couldn't happen too quickly. But, if the huns got emptied and the league got increased, would the extra home games have any compensation on the cash that might be lost from the loss of tv monies?

Just a thought really.

Expansion of the League would not bring any more home games. Maybe there would be fewer matches.

A 14-team League playing each other twice before a split paying each other another two times would give 13+6 = 19 home matches (the same as at present).

A 16-team League playing each other twice would give 15 home matches.

An 18-team League playing home and away would give 17 home matches.

A 20-team League playing home and away would give 19 home matches.

If the 16-team or the 18-team option were selected there would have to be either League Cup groups and/or end of season play-offs.

[Kaiser1962]

Cheers just emailed Mr Doncaster reminding him of his blog with the link, and asked him to make sure he reminds the chairmen of the clubs of it before they make their decisions.


Rangerstaxcase.com worth a look regarding Bill Miller.

http://rangerstaxcase.wordpress.com/

[Sexton]

Expansion of the League would not bring any more home games. Maybe there would be fewer matches.

A 14-team League playing each other twice before a split paying each other another two times would give 13+6 = 19 home matches (the same as at present).

A 16-team League playing each other twice would give 15 home matches.

An 18-team League playing home and away would give 17 home matches.

A 20-team League playing home and away would give 19 home matches.

If the 16-team or the 18-team option were selected there would have to be either League Cup groups and/or end of season play-offs.

ah, right. Thanks for that. I didn't break it down really, it's probably been done on here plenty times too. I think I just went on the idea that more teams = more games.

[Seveno]

I am fed up with these constant attacks on Neil Doncaster. To me, he is clearly a man of integrity. Just like our beloved First Minister, he is always fighting for jobs. Just like our beloved First Minister, his own.

[James70]

Rangers(and Celtic) would walk out on the SPL at the drop of a hat given the opportunity.

It is obvious that the SPL now only exists to give the OF a platform to perform on until they find someone else prepared to take them.

I am now totally fed up and embarrassed with Scottish football and this will be the last straw for me.

[Moulin Yarns]

Can't believe Doncaster was blogging this in March when Hearts didn't pay wages. What a hypocrite!!!!!!!!!

CEO Blog

Well found Pathead


Cheers just emailed Mr Doncaster reminding him of his blog with the link, and asked him to make sure he reminds the chairmen of the clubs of it before they make their decisions.


Well Done you guys, you deserve a medal for all the hard work with the survey, and taking the fight to the SPL

[Bishop Hibee]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/rangers-takeover-john-yorkston-calls-on-spl-chairmen-to-relegate-newco-rangers-1-2278177

Heed John Yorkston and the vast majority of Hibs supporters Petrie.

[HibeeMG]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/rangers-takeover-john-yorkston-calls-on-spl-chairmen-to-relegate-newco-rangers-1-2278177

Heed John Yorkston and the vast majority of Hibs supporters Petrie.

Very, very interesting. Here's hoping!

[silverhibee]

FFS. http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/4300437/We-cant-kick-Rangers-out.html

[HibeeMG]

FFS. http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/4300437/We-cant-kick-Rangers-out.html

Let's hope John Yorkston has more mates around the chairman water cooler than Michael Johnston!

[Ozyhibby]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/rangers-takeover-john-yorkston-calls-on-spl-chairmen-to-relegate-newco-rangers-1-2278177

Heed John Yorkston and the vast majority of Hibs supporters Petrie.

We can only hope Petrie has as much integrity.

[ScottB]

RE that Doncaster statement relating to Hearts. I doubt he'd bat an eyelid when pointed out, he's basically following the McCoist line of 'Rangers are different.'

Hearts can't break the rules, Hibs can't, St Johnstone can't, but Rangers can. That's his position. Trying to suggest that to him is only going to get a 'yes, and your point is?' out of the spineless moron.

[joe breezy]

Scottish football is corrupt if a newco Rangers are in the SPL next season

Who wants to watch a corrupt sport?

I only go to 3 or 4 games a season due to distance but I won't go back either

Every club that allows Rangers back in becomes part of the corruption

[Onion]

IMHO this is has now got the stage where there can be no good outcome from all of this. RFC are in the process of KILLING the game in Scotland because they are not prepared to accept proper punishment or to play by the rules. It is so typical of that club.

A formal split and resignations from the SPL must now be a serious possibility. If I was a CEO of a club that had run its affairs in a proper fashion but knew that some opponents could cheat their way to success (without proper punishment), I would not want to be part of that league. We talk about principles, cutting our nose to spite our face etc etc, but this is easily the most serious issue to affect Scottish Football in my lifetime.

Normally, club chairmen do whatever they want - usually driven by financial self-interest. But Petrie and every other one of the 10 need to understand that this is DIFFERENT. If they fail in their duty to "do the right thing" then it will be the fans who will be their moral compass when they walk away from the game altogether. If Hibs fail to keep NewCo out of the SPL and do not resign in protest, then I will expect and demand a refund on my Season Ticket, and will never set foot in Easter Road again. It will not be the club I grew up with, It will not be the club I have loved.

I would much sooner pay to watch Hibs play in a clean SFL where sporting integrity lives, than in a morally corrupt SPL dominated by cheats.

[Ozyhibby]

http://henryclarson.wordpress.com/2012/05/06/commercial-benefits-outweigh-sporting-integrity-official/

Worth a read

[Ozyhibby]

IMHO this is has now got the stage where there can be no good outcome from all of this. RFC are in the process of KILLING the game in Scotland because they are not prepared to accept proper punishment or to play by the rules. It is so typical of that club.

A formal split and resignations from the SPL must now be a serious possibility. If I was a CEO of a club that had run its affairs in a proper fashion but knew that some opponents could cheat their way to success (without proper punishment), I would not want to be part of that league. We talk about principles, cutting our nose to spite our face etc etc, but this is easily the most serious issue to affect Scottish Football in my lifetime.

Normally, club chairmen do whatever they want - usually driven by financial self-interest. But Petrie and every other one of the 10 need to understand that this is DIFFERENT. If they fail in their duty to "do the right thing" then it will be the fans who will be their moral compass when they walk away from the game altogether. If Hibs fail to keep NewCo out of the SPL and do not resign in protest, then I will expect and demand a refund on my Season Ticket, and will never set foot in Easter Road again. It will not be the club I grew up with, It will not be the club I have loved.

I would much sooner pay to watch Hibs play in a clean SFL where sporting integrity lives, than in a morally corrupt SPL dominated by cheats.

As far as I'm concerned that is the only correct option for Hibs to take and one which the club would be applauded world wide. It may even benefit them commercially in the long run.
Great post.

[Col2]

Do we know exactly what is on agenda for Mondays meeting? Is it the postponed vote re sanctions or wider?

Also do we know if a 8 v 4 majority works to approve any proposals? I would guess Sheep, us, yams, pars, united and Celtic are up for booting huns in the nuts. Any other definates?

[Ozyhibby]

Do we know exactly what is on agenda for Mondays meeting? Is it the postponed vote re sanctions or wider?

Also do we know if a 8 v 4 majority works to approve any proposals? I would guess Sheep, us, yams, pars, united and Celtic are up for booting huns in the nuts. Any other definates?

I wouldn't consider Celtic definite's.

[down-the-slope]

Do we know exactly what is on agenda for Mondays meeting? Is it the postponed vote re sanctions or wider?

Also do we know if a 8 v 4 majority works to approve any proposals? I would guess Sheep, us, yams, pars, united and Celtic are up for booting huns in the nuts. Any other definates?

only needs five for the financial penalties to be agreed...the higher number for other rule changes....

The big issue is whether Old Gers still exist to punish....or has that horse bolted to be NewCo before changes are effected and therefore not punishable....

You can be sure after the dust settles and new rules in place...that the next rule breaker (Hearts ?) will get the book thrown at them

[Ozyhibby]

only needs five for the financial penalties to be agreed...the higher number for other rule changes....

The big issue is whether Old Gers still exist to punish....or has that horse bolted to be NewCo before changes are effected and therefore not punishable....

You can be sure after the dust settles and new rules in place...that the next rule breaker (Hearts ?) will get the book thrown at them

It is the license or SPL share that gets punished and that is being transferred so any punishment goes to the new club.

[Ozyhibby]

Do we know exactly what is on agenda for Mondays meeting? Is it the postponed vote re sanctions or wider?

Also do we know if a 8 v 4 majority works to approve any proposals? I would guess Sheep, us, yams, pars, united and Celtic are up for booting huns in the nuts. Any other definates?

Steven Thompson of Dundee utd has also been talking of commercial considerations recently and we are still not sure which way Hibs will vote.
I think that the only way that they will not vote for a new club to be admitted to the SPL is for those against to threaten to resign.

[Col2]

See if they all back down, then we will never hear the end of it from Chic young and Traynor about how reliant the other clubs are on RFC. And if Hibs do vote against it but the majority go the other way I hope, no DEMAND that Hibs break ranks and tell everyone our position and how disgusted we are. That way Petrie can protect some of the attendances next year (eg don't penalise us as we were against it) AND come out with some credit on an issue which makes most of us raging with anger.

[down-the-slope]

It is the license or SPL share that gets punished and that is being transferred so any punishment goes to the new club.

You are missing the point...if the NewCo is formed / share transferred BEFORE the rules take effect...then no punishment can be made

[Saorsa]

See if they all back down, then we will never hear the end of it from Chic young and Traynor about how reliant the other clubs are on RFC. And if Hibs do vote against it but the majority go the other way I hope, no DEMAND that Hibs break ranks and tell everyone our position and how disgusted we are. That way Petrie can protect some of the attendances next year (eg don't penalise us as we were against it) AND come out with some credit on an issue which makes most of us raging with anger.Whether hibs vote against it or not it'll make nae difference tae me, if Scottish fitba votes for it then I'm out, it's that simple for me. Does anybody think we'd be having all this talk of rule changes or other bull **** if it wisnae one of the OF going down the pan? Would we ****! I winnae continue tae put money in tae some as totally corrupt. What is the point of a competition in which certain teams can so blatantly cheat and get away with it? If that is the road that those running Scottish fitba choose tae go down, they'll be going down it without me and many others.

Scottish fitba run by shysters, cheats, OF stooges, bottle merchants and cowards will never see another penny from me.

[killie-hibby]

IMHO this is has now got the stage where there can be no good outcome from all of this. RFC are in the process of KILLING the game in Scotland because they are not prepared to accept proper punishment or to play by the rules. It is so typical of that club.

A formal split and resignations from the SPL must now be a serious possibility. If I was a CEO of a club that had run its affairs in a proper fashion but knew that some opponents could cheat their way to success (without proper punishment), I would not want to be part of that league. We talk about principles, cutting our nose to spite our face etc etc, but this is easily the most serious issue to affect Scottish Football in my lifetime.

Normally, club chairmen do whatever they want - usually driven by financial self-interest. But Petrie and every other one of the 10 need to understand that this is DIFFERENT. If they fail in their duty to "do the right thing" then it will be the fans who will be their moral compass when they walk away from the game altogether. If Hibs fail to keep NewCo out of the SPL and do not resign in protest, then I will expect and demand a refund on my Season Ticket, and will never set foot in Easter Road again. It will not be the club I grew up with, It will not be the club I have loved.

I would much sooner pay to watch Hibs play in a clean SFL where sporting integrity lives, than in a morally corrupt SPL dominated by cheats.




Agree with and understand all of your points. In my case I would not ask for a ST refund, but instead would write to Hibs four days before every home game with an explanation of why my seat in row cc of the West Stand will be empty.

[Eyrie]

You are missing the point...if the NewCo is formed / share transferred BEFORE the rules take effect...then no punishment can be made

I thought the SPL had to approve any share transfer? So it could be approved subject to the sanctions being applied, although i'm not holding my breath that the punishment will fit the crime.

[PaulSmith]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/05/06/rangers-in-crisis-spl-don-t-have-power-to-issue-penalties-if-newco-gets-into-top-flight-86908-23849612/


has this been posted yet, if not then those of a nervous disposition better not read it

[hibsbollah]

I didnt see a reply to my question last week, i may have missed it. Will the identity of which teams voted yes and no in tomorrows vote will be made public?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Am I being over dramatic or could this meeting tomorrow signal the death throes for Scottish league football as we know it?

[Moulin Yarns]

I didnt see a reply to my question last week, i may have missed it. Will the identity of which teams voted yes and no in tomorrows vote will be made public?

Only if Ally McCoist demands it. :cb

[Caversham Green]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/05/06/rangers-in-crisis-spl-don-t-have-power-to-issue-penalties-if-newco-gets-into-top-flight-86908-23849612/


has this been posted yet, if not then those of a nervous disposition better not read it

That should make the decision much easier then. There was previously the option of a compromise 'yes' vote so long as there were penalties attached. Now that that has apparently gone (according to the Record at least) there can only be a right and wrong decision. If the comments from the weak and greedy Michael Johnston are anything to go by, my money's on the latter.

As a side issue, Hibs attract bigger crowds than Dunfermline and are probably a bigger commercial attraction. I wonder if Mr Johnston would agree to the SPL awarding us a point tomorrow for commercial benefits rather than bothering with a game of football.

[Barney McGrew]

I didnt see a reply to my question last week, i may have missed it. Will the identity of which teams voted yes and no in tomorrows vote will be made public?

Only if the vote doesn't go the way that Rangers want it to :wink:

[Jack]

Club chairmen have a stark choice to make.

Lose the money from rangers being in the league and all the commercial stuff that goes with it, or

rangers stay in the SPL. All clubs with the exception of them and possibly celtc lose up to half their supporters.

In scenario 1 sporting integrity is maintained and possibly with increased and fair competition crowds slowly increase. Clubs playing within the rules triumph over evil.

In scenario 2 the medium term outlook is bleak. It could lead to the demise of professional club football in Scotland with any clubs remaining joining the English leagues.

In the long term the OF get what they've been after all along, playing down south.

Anyone into conspiracy theories might think to two of them had planned this whole thing from the very beginning.

[Jim44]

I didnt see a reply to my question last week, i may have missed it. Will the identity of which teams voted yes and no in tomorrows vote will be made public?

Who's to say there will be a vote tomorrow? They ajourned the last meeting saying they would reconvene but not necessarily vote. Rangers ally, Michael Johnstone, in his pro Rangers utterence said that they should delay hasty votes until they have more information ........ What he really means is. ........ Let's give Rangers time to get their newco foot in the door before any new sanctions can be applied.

[Onion]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/football/spl/2012/05/06/rangers-in-crisis-spl-don-t-have-power-to-issue-penalties-if-newco-gets-into-top-flight-86908-23849612/


has this been posted yet, if not then those of a nervous disposition better not read it

Basically says that few in any of the sanctions will be approved on Monday and if they do vote to let the NewCo into the SPL then it will have to without punishment - oh joy !

SPL heading towards meltdown - caused by the Huns - whichever way this goes.

[Onion]

That should make the decision much easier then. There was previously the option of a compromise 'yes' vote so long as there were penalties attached. Now that that has apparently gone (according to the Record at least) there can only be a right and wrong decision. If the comments from the weak and greedy Michael Johnston are anything to go by, my money's on the latter.

As a side issue, Hibs attract bigger crowds than Dunfermline and are probably a bigger commercial attraction. I wonder if Mr Johnston would agree to the SPL awarding us a point tomorrow for commercial benefits rather than bothering with a game of football.

I like it ! And that's the problem with Johnston and his like - where the hell do you stop ?

On a serious note, if it was the Huns or Tic playing DAFC tomorrow for their SPL lives, what the SPL is saying is that they would not allow the Huns or Tic to lose. Or if NewHuns do go
straight into the SPL and have to play 18 year olds, they are immune from relegation.

The biggest problem Rangers have got in this whole sorry mess is that they can't rely on a load of dodgy ref decisions to sort out their finances and law-breaking which is the biggest irony of all.

[Seveno]

I'm getting a bit weary of the doom mongers and 'I'll never go back again' brigade. Sporting integrity is just as important to me but I am not going to punish my club for the misdemeanours of others.

What some people seem to forget is that the main charges against Rangers have still to be proven or confirmed. The inquiry into dual contracts is still under way and the Tribunal has still to deliver its verdict on the appeal under the BTC. Until Rangers have been found guilty of breaking SFA rules and cheating the tax man for 10 years, then I think the SPL Chairmen should keep their powder dry.

As things stand, a newco Rangers are already facing hefty penalties :

1) The 12 months transfer embargo
2) A 3 year ban from Europe
3) A 2 year penalty deduction.

Plus all the litigation over the various points at issue. ( I can't be bothered listing them ).

If these stick then it well it will take them a long time to recover.

If the dual contract inquiry finds against them, then the SFA will have to act and impose a far more stringent punishment than the transfer embargo. Suspension of their licence surely has to be a real possibility.

This story has a long way to go and we should be sticking by our club at this time and showing some faith in our Chairman.

[Jim44]

If there is a vote tomorrow, I think the details will be kept secret. Johnstone and Yorkston are the only ones who have shown their hands so far. The others will want things kept quiet but there will almost certainly be a leak and then the 'revenge' party begins.

[Just Alf]

@Paulmcc12: Rangers and the Incubator – Part 2 – Who Could Stop the Deal?

http://t.co/zbkMDeJF

[Barney McGrew]

As things stand, a newco Rangers are already facing hefty penalties :

1) The 12 months transfer embargo
2) A 3 year ban from Europe
3) A 2 year penalty deduction.

Plus all the litigation over the various points at issue. ( I can't be bothered listing them )

The whole point is though, the way thing appear to be going then points (1) and (3) won't apply because they'll have been sanctioned against the OldCo. Likewise, the litigation will be against the old version.

[hibsbollah]

If you were a SPL bigwig who had just voted to force huns into the third division, the last thing youd want is your identity publicised so the buckfast and lidl loyal could send you bullets in the post and haraass your kids at school.

[hibs0666]

The whole point is though, the way thing appear to be going then points (1) and (3) won't apply because they'll have been sanctioned against the OldCo. Likewise, the litigation will be against the old version.

I'm not sure about that The SFA does not talk in terms of companies but instead talks about clubs. The huns are claiming that a transfer to newco allows the club to continue i.e. it does not need to re-apply to join the SFA etc. Given that (1) was imposed on the club by the SFA then the punishment might well stay in place on transfer.

There is no 2 year penalty deduction yet agreed.

[Jim44]

The whole point is though, the way thing appear to be going then points (1) and (3) won't apply because they'll have been sanctioned against the OldCo. Likewise, the litigation will be against the old version.

Points 1 and 3 might very well apply as I think that the sanctions are against the SPL licence and not the actual 'oldco' or 'newco'. Surely the newco will hold the licence and therefore are hit.

[Barney McGrew]

I'm not sure about that The SFA does not talk in terms of companies but instead talks about clubs. The huns are claiming that a transfer to newco allows the club to continue i.e. it does not need to re-apply to join the SFA etc. Given that (1) was imposed on the club by the SFA then the punishment might well stay in place on transfer.

There is no 2 year penalty deduction yet agreed.


Points 1 and 3 might very well apply as I think that the sanctions are against the SPL licence and not the actual 'oldco' or 'newco'. Surely the newco will hold the licence and therefore are hit.

I think their argument appears to be that the assets will be moved to NewCo while the 'history' remains in OldCo until it comes out of administration (aye right). In that case, they could argue that OldCo still exists and therefore should carry the punishment. You can bet that's what they'll try and get everyone to swallow anyway.

Shall we place bets on the sanctions remaining in place against a NewCo or reduced/removed on appeal for the OldCo?

I think we can guess which way it will go unfortunately.

[PeeKay]

I think their argument appears to be that the assets will be moved to NewCo while the 'history' remains in OldCo until it comes out of administration (aye right). In that case, they could argue that OldCo still exists and therefore should carry the punishment. You can bet that's what they'll try and get everyone to swallow anyway.

Shall we place bets on the sanctions remaining in place against a NewCo or reduced/removed on appeal for the OldCo?

I think we can guess which way it will go unfortunately.

But only one can hold the licence and the punishment goes with the licence. If the licence (and punishment) stay with the oldco, then the newco cannot play a team in the SPL.

[Seveno]

Points 1 and 3 might very well apply as I think that the sanctions are against the SPL licence and not the actual 'oldco' or 'newco'. Surely the newco will hold the licence and therefore are hit.

I agree that, if Rangers walk away with out any penalty at all, then it is scandalous and a good reason to try to organise some form of protest by all non-Old Firm fans. Although I really do think that UEFA would step in at that stage.

In the meantime, stay calm but write lots of letters toRod, Neil Doncaster and Stewart Regan. Moaning on here will do nothing. Walking away will achieve nothing either other than hurting the Club you love and making it even easier for the Ugly Sisters to dominate.

[carnoustiehibee]

I agree that, if Rangers walk away with out any penalty at all, then it is scandalous and a good reason to try to organise some form of protest by all non-Old Firm fans. Although I really do think that UEFA would step in at that stage.

In the meantime, stay calm but write lots of letters toRod, Neil Doncaster and Stewart Regan. Moaning on here will do nothing. Walking away will achieve nothing either other than hurting the Club you love and making it even easier for the Ugly Sisters to dominate.

why not wait and see how many clubs want the punishment. i.e only st mirren and aberdeen want a newco rangers relagated, then all other fans of the spl clubs only go to support those two teams for 1 season.

[Just Alf]

why not wait and see how many clubs want the punishment. i.e only st mirren and aberdeen want a newco rangers relagated, then all other fans of the spl clubs only go to support those two teams for 1 season.

That's what my Killie mate's doing next season, he's gonna be at the Hibs games, Hibs end, unless Killie are playing when he'll be an away supporter! Assuming RP votes the way we want him to of course.

[TheEastTerrace]

Utd's Stephen Thomson on Rangers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17975013

[Lungo--Drom]

Who says three years? :D :D :D
Aye it could be three years but they might end up like FC United of Manchester, formed by rebel fans after Glazer bought them out, doing not badly but basically stuck forever in the 6th level of the English competition. Not quite a direct comparison I know but how many of the blue monkey brigade will stop following the team (or using it as an excuse for being sectarian thugs) and if the support base falls away so will the money and so will the level of player etc. etc. downwards ever downwards...... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . <gone>

Ach dreamin as usual :D


....It would do more good in the long term than placing Rangers in division 3 and allowing them to return to an unreformed existing structure in three years.

[sambajustice]

Personally, for various reasons, I'd fall into the "never go back brigade"

What could possibly be an idea is for all the estranged fans of all the SPL clubs to somehow get together and "support" another team. A fairly central, unoffensive team such as Stirling Albion. What a hoot that would be if they started getting 15k+ fans attending their games! Apart from not everyone being able to get in it would be making some statement!

[Beefster]

Utd's Stephen Thomson on Rangers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17975013

I reckon this (and Johnston's chat) is the SPL PR campaign to get the fans to understand why the SPL 'just had to' let a Rangers newco stay in the league.

[TheEastTerrace]

I reckon this (and Johnston's chat) is the SPL PR campaign to get the fans to understand why the SPL 'just had to' let a Rangers newco stay in the league.

Sure is :agree:

'Our hands were tied'.

[grunt]

I reckon this (and Johnston's chat) is the SPL PR campaign to get the fans to understand why the SPL 'just had to' let a Rangers newco stay in the league.
I think you're right. On Sportsound this afternoon, Chick Young saying that all the Chairmen know what the right thing to do is, but they are swayed by the commercial benefits. What sort of message does this send to the youth of Scotland today? Surely if you know what the "right thing to do" is, you do it? There's no debate.

[jgl07]

Ach I'm fine with this balance sheet over sporting integrity. It'll be interesting to see the price list showing how much it'll cost a club to buy points from another club.

How do you think it'll go?

£2000 for a point
£5000 for a win

or will it be based on league position?

May the richest team win

How much would Hibs get to sell their cup final place to Celtic?

[Hibrandenburg]

Hope that our chairman decides for integrity and Rangers end up having to field this team-

Naismith, Naifuture, Naiclass, Naimoney, Naistadium, Naihope, Naitrophies, Naiprospects, Naifans, Naimanager, Naiplayers.

[grunt]

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/time-leadership-scottish-football/1392

[Seveno]

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/time-leadership-scottish-football/1392

Can we have him as Chief Exec of the SPL or, better still, as First Minister. :not worth

[PatHead]

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/time-leadership-scottish-football/1392

That man is the only good thing to come out of the whole episode.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The Glasgow media should be bowing their heads in shame. Why does it take an outsider ie Mr Thomson to ask the questions non-Rangers fans want and need answered?

I know I'm just a keyboard nonentity, but, I'd still like to know.

[JCHibby]

What is the ******g point, all of scottish fitbae shee-hiting themselves on the thought of losing of Rangers and the TV money that brings.

Tell you what, lets get back to basics, start looking after and playing good scottish talent, every team will be closer and you will have a more competitive league, more people coming through the door wanting to watch closer and more entertaining games!

Football is about coaching talent and working with it and growing it, not spending as much money as you dont have and buying title after title...

Rod - Please stand up and be counted and tell the SFA and Rangers to do one, start in the 3rd Division I for one couldn't give a monkeys if sky leave. Trust the coaching and infrastructure of the club you support!

(just read Steven Thomsons comments hence the rant!)

[joe breezy]

I know, how unusual it is to have a serious intelligent journalist report on a Scottish football issue, just shows how it should be done and what a disgrace the Glasgow media are..

[HibbyDave]

Come on Rod... Stand up and be counted. Fans don't care about sky tv/espn or other televison "Superdeals". Once the tele companies are finished with football it will be as popular as darts and snooker on TV and just like those sports NOBODY WILL BE LEFT TO ATTEND live matches in the league.


Let's get it together and continue to Grow our own talent to compete in a FAIR LEAGUE.



If Newco Rankgers are allowed to walk back into the SPL every shred of integrity within the boards of the other SPL clubs disappears. All the posturing of your recent television appearance will be exactly that POSTURING.

I will never attend an SPL match again.

[TheEastTerrace]

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/time-leadership-scottish-football/1392

:top marks:rules::applause:

[stokesmessiah]

I think RP should walk into that meeting tomorrow, connect his laptop up to a projector and beam "Sport celebrates competition – business seeks to eliminate it" on to the wall and say "this gentlemen is why we are where we are at today, it's time we started a new era, who is ready?"

[MrSmith]

I feel sick to the stomach!

We now have a glimpse of how our club and the other nine will vote tomorrow. Rangers old/newco will remain in the SPL without formal punishment!

I feel sick in my stomach!

Whether folk see me as a doom and gloomer or a drama queen this is the end or the end is nigh dependent on your stance! Remember this sentiment:

"The clubs are mindful of a sporting integrity aspect but the commercial benefits may outweigh that." Michael Johnston Kilmarnock FC Director.

And:

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am finding it very stressful, as are most of the board. "We are in a very, very difficult situation and at a crossroads for Scottish football.
"I understand how all the fans feel and I have great sympathy for them.
"But I have a legal responsibility to run Dundee United and a legal responsibility as a director of the SPL.
"We've got to think about our own clubs and about the whole of Scottish football.
"It is impossible." Stephen Thompson Dundee Utd. Director.

This disgusts me! A cloak and dagger affair of the most despicable nature is about to be unleashed upon the good people who support Scottish Football!

I echo all those who have said they will not return to Easter Road nor any other SPL match. I most definitely will not return and whether this hurts hibs or not? I'm sorry Mr Petrie, I do not recognise Hibernian FC at this point.

Mr Petrie if you do not do the right thing and vote for integrity over balancing the books, then you will have, in one foul swoop, disgraced our heritage and all the hard work in creating Hibernian FC.

[Onion]

Utd's Stephen Thomson on Rangers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17975013

This is bull****. If he feels compromised by his position as an SPL board member, then simple - resign from the SPL Board. Then you vote along with all the others as Chair of DUFC on behalf of the club and their fans. Hiding behind some temporary SPL position is just a load of crap.

This Hun situation is going to tear Scottish Football apart.