Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Spike Mandela]

Hopefully Mr. Doncaster has his telly tuned to this tonight, if the Beeb can find damning evidence of dual contracts, then how in his right mind can he justify letting a new Rangers back in to the SPL when they have quite clearly cheated? Tonight will hopefully be the final nail in the coffin of that vile and loathsome club.

Wouldn't hold your breath. Many programme's like this have been eagerly anticipated in the past only to be a damp squib when aired. I am sure Mr Murray and the football authorities will have staements already prepared to refute any allegations in tomorrow's press.

[bighairyfaeleith]

[email protected]

Just sent


Dear Mr Doncaster,

It is with great concern that I have read your recent comments regarding allowing Rangers newco straight back into the SPL.

As a small businessmen that has spent a great deal of my companies money on advertising at a Scottish football ground I am appalled that you would feel it appropriate to back a company running up huge debts with local businesses and then being able to effectively walk away from those debts.

This shows a momentous arrogance towards business, how you can think that businesses will continue to support Scottish football when you allow your clubs to treat business in such a manner is beyond me.

You threaten the ability of clubs to borrow and to gain advertising revenue by going down this path. I sincerely hope you will take these comments seriously, sporting integrity and business integrity are vital to Scottish football, I for one will not sit idly by if you choose to ride roughshod over these founding principles of Scottish football.

There is a growing movement of fans and businesses beginning to discuss what action will be taken against the SFA, SPL and a rangers newco if this is to happen, it will most certainly outweigh any lost revenue if rangers where to drop out of the SPL. I would urge you to put the needs of scottish football long term ahead of a perceived short term gain by bowing to Rangers newco.

[Just Alf]

Just sent


Dear Mr Doncaster,

It is with great concern that I have read your recent comments regarding allowing Rangers newco straight back into the SPL.

As a small businessmen that has spent a great deal of my companies money on advertising at a Scottish football ground I am appalled that you would feel it appropriate to back a company running up huge debts with local businesses and then being able to effectively walk away from those debts.

This shows a momentous arrogance towards business, how you can think that businesses will continue to support Scottish football when you allow your clubs to treat business in such a manner is beyond me.

You threaten the ability of clubs to borrow and to gain advertising revenue by going down this path. I sincerely hope you will take these comments seriously, sporting integrity and business integrity are vital to Scottish football, I for one will not sit idly by if you choose to ride roughshod over these founding principles of Scottish football.

There is a growing movement of fans and businesses beginning to discuss what action will be taken against the SFA, SPL and a rangers newco if this is to happen, it will most certainly outweigh any lost revenue if rangers where to drop out of the SPL. I would urge you to put the needs of scottish football long term ahead of a perceived short term gain by bowing to Rangers newco.

Very well said .... :top marks

[stokesmessiah]

@STVRaman: SPL statement over ''investigation into the EBT payments made by Rangers''.Still waiting for info

This was tweeted a couple of hours ago. I guess nothing was released?

[Part/Time Supporter]

Wouldn't hold your breath. Many programme's like this have been eagerly anticipated in the past only to be a damp squib when aired. I am sure Mr Murray and the football authorities will have staements already prepared to refute any allegations in tomorrow's press.

The last BBC investigation into Rangers revealed the fact that Whyte had been disqualified from running companies. That in turn led to the SFA investigation (as Rangers hadn't disclosed this to them) which resulted in the transfer embargo they've been bumping their gums about for the last month.

[TheEastTerrace]

Yes, short statement released - to paraphrase 'it's not our fault the EBT & dual contracts investigation has over-run. Speak to Duff and Duffer'

[Mon Dieu4]

According to the bbc they have evidence that 53 players and staff benefited from EBTs and that Ferguson and Klos got about £2.5M each out of them, roll on 8pm and the full show

[TheEastTerrace]

Tony McKelvie on Twitter saying a huge conflict of interest has been uncovered. Apparently, D&P people involved in Ticketus deal.

[shagpile]

Tony McKelvie on Twitter saying a huge conflict of interest has been uncovered. Apparently, D&P people involved in Ticketus deal.

Surprise ,surprise.

This is the end for the huns.

[camhibby1]

According to the bbc they have evidence that 53 players and staff benefited from EBTs and that Ferguson and Klos got about £2.5M each out of them, roll on 8pm and the full show


Hope we can now expect media revision of SDM and the previous board after the snippet on the news. I see Johnston, previous chairman getting his 'defence' in early accusing SDM of dictatorship - as a director along with Bain and others, what about corporate responsibility. I have a feeling this will further strengthen other clubs determination(Kilmarnock excepted) to go for the jugular next week and knock Doncaster for six as a side show. I think too this is going to rebound on Green also and now I am convinced liquidation is the only course of action. Alleged criminality becoming more apparent by the day.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Very well said .... :top marks

I'm quite astounded, I got a phone call back from Mr Doncaster, about ten minutes after I emailed it. Short on time just now but will post the jist of what he said later

[stokesmessiah]

Surprise ,surprise.

This is the end for the huns.

Don't be silly. We have seen a clear and sustained campaign from the powers that be. No matter how much we all want it to happen a huge amount of this is going to be swept under the carpet and i am willing to bet in a years time RFC (or whatever they are called then) will still be in 2nd place in the league.

[Benny Brazil]

I'm quite astounded, I got a phone call back from Mr Doncaster, about ten minutes after I emailed it. Short on time just now but will post the jist of what he said later

Looking forward to hearing about this call more than the programme at 8pm tonight :greengrin

[stokesmessiah]

Tony McKelvie on Twitter saying a huge conflict of interest has been uncovered. Apparently, D&P people involved in Ticketus deal.

That has not really been uncovered though, it is common knowledge that D&P were involved in Whyte's takeover so they will of course known where the funds were coming from? Unless wait, they might of been duped?

[stokesmessiah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/scottish/

BBC page is breaking the stories now.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Looking forward to hearing about this call more than the programme at 8pm tonight :greengrin

not that exciting I'm afraid.

Basically he was saying that the SPL can only enforce the rules as they exist. He clearly believes, or at least says he does, that there is no rule to stop a newco from taking rangers place in the league. I haven't checked yet but he reckoned SPL rules 11 & 13 means they can do a newco and get straight back in and that 14 which is the ones the club vote on would not come into play in this scenario.

I basically said that as a business I would not be happy at the SPL condoning one of there clubs running up debts with small businesses and then walking away from those debts. For that reason I was reconsidering my support to scottish football (which is fairly minimal but none the less). he gave the right noises about understanding but said again that they can only enforce the rules as they currently stand. I didn't have a copy of the rules so just said that I sincerely hoped they would be and that a lot of people would be watching to make sure they where.

He mentioned english clubs doing newcos a lot and I just said thats England, this is Scotland and i don't no of any newco examples in Scotland which sets a precedent. he didn't either.

hats off to him for phoning me, and he was at least prepared to give his position and point of view, however I'm not sure he yet gets what is about to happen.

Wish I had been better prepared but TBH never expected an email reply never mind a phone call so quickly.

[silverhibee]

BBC1. Rangers-Men Who Sold the jerseys. 8 o'clock tonight. :aok:

[TheEastTerrace]

That has not really been uncovered though, it is common knowledge that D&P were involved in Whyte's takeover so they will of course known where the funds were coming from? Unless wait, they might of been duped?

Sounds like it relates more to the timing - senior partner of D&P said he knew nothing of the deal at a time in which it is apparent he did.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I'm looking forward to this, not smiled since about 1500 on Saturday.

[Barney McGrew]

Beers and popcorn at the ready.

This could be good :greengrin

[DarrenSQH]

Why is the show starting with a troll in his rangers cave.

[SteveHFC]

11 - The Taxman :faf::faf:

[SteveHFC]

Murray

whyte ellis withey johnston

baxendale-walker - d&p - grier - ticketus

lloyds - taxman

[SteveHFC]

tax advisor / porn star

what a job
:faf::faf:

[CropleyWasGod]

tax advisor / porn star

what a job
:faf::faf:

What's your point? :confused:









:cb

[TheGreenMan]

May be interesting for anyone who cant be arsed reading through the 14,678 page Huns in Admin thread :greengrin

[blackpoolhibs]

Souness in alleged dodgy payments for Tudguy. I hope there's more to come on this, hate that smug git.

[joe breezy]

Hilarious already, 'one of the greatest institutions on the planet' ha, and Craig Whyte always cracks me up..,

Comedy gold and surely this all has to be taken further, so dodgy

[Barney McGrew]

£6.3m for Minty Moonbeams himself and Souness taking illegal backhanders for buying Tugay :greengrin

[Saorsa]

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b168/jamie1971/SPL.jpg
Don't be silly. We have seen a clear and sustained campaign from the powers that be. No matter how much we all want it to happen a huge amount of this is going to be swept under the carpet and i am willing to bet in a years time RFC (or whatever they are called then) will still be in 2nd place in the league.

[TheGreenMan]

Souness in alleged dodgy payments for Tudguy. I hope there's more to come on this, hate that smug git.

David Murray denies it and Souness refuses to respond at all :hmmm:

[Cabbage East]

Disgusting cheating filth.

[Saorsa]

not that exciting I'm afraid.

Basically he was saying that the SPL can only enforce the rules as they exist. He clearly believes, or at least says he does, that there is no rule to stop a newco from taking rangers place in the league. I haven't checked yet but he reckoned SPL rules 11 & 13 means they can do a newco and get straight back in and that 14 which is the ones the club vote on would not come into play in this scenario.

I basically said that as a business I would not be happy at the SPL condoning one of there clubs running up debts with small businesses and then walking away from those debts. For that reason I was reconsidering my support to scottish football (which is fairly minimal but none the less). he gave the right noises about understanding but said again that they can only enforce the rules as they currently stand. I didn't have a copy of the rules so just said that I sincerely hoped they would be and that a lot of people would be watching to make sure they where.

He mentioned english clubs doing newcos a lot and I just said thats England, this is Scotland and i don't no of any newco examples in Scotland which sets a precedent. he didn't either.

hats off to him for phoning me, and he was at least prepared to give his position and point of view, however I'm not sure he yet gets what is about to happen.

Wish I had been better prepared but TBH never expected an email reply never mind a phone call so quickly.He's full of bull****

[SteveHFC]

Come on then Rangers fans. Please defend your disgusting little club now. I dare you

[The_Todd]

If Doncaster and Co continue to defend this pile of **** then the game's up as far as Scottish football is concerned. We knew they were at it, but this is astonishing. Every title and cup must and should be expunged.

[joe breezy]

Alex McLeish did no bad too huh, HMRC have to destroy them for this...

[down-the-slope]

No wonder SDM wanted this programmed stopped - wonder who has given the beeb all this paper work....Hector will be enjoying his viewing....

I know I am.....how can they wriggle out of all this :rolleyes:

[The_Todd]

Come on then Rangers fans. Please defend your disgusting little club now. I dare you

You defo stole that from me on P&B :wink:

[SteveHFC]

You defo stole that from me on P&B :wink:

:greengrin

[Cabbage East]

This is damning stuff.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Vlad must be bricking it if the stories about low salaries for players from Lithuania are to be believed!

[silverhibee]

Alex McLeish did no bad too huh, HMRC have to destroy them for this...

He seems good at hiding things. :wink:

[Part/Time Supporter]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818

[lucky]

They are all at it. If even half of this is true. They are doomed

[Saorsa]

No wonder SDM wanted this programmed stopped - wonder who has given the beeb all this paper work....Hector will be enjoying his viewing....

I know I am.....how can they wriggle out of all this :rolleyes:I'm sure Neil Huncaster will try and find a way.

[leither17]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818

Ian murray on it for 95 grand

[Barney McGrew]

This is like a bbc radio commentary.
Could someone say what is being discussed for those that can't see the it?

Ta

53 players had EBTs, plus numerous staff and directors.

[Mikey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818

I see the President of the SFA is in that list.

[joe breezy]

For those not watching

They're showing the success of the Gers but it's clear it was all built on mass dodginess

EBTs are only allowed if its a loan - they were never loans and there's documents to prove it

Now looking at Murray's career and how much he borrowed...

Loads of evidence, recipients of EBTs include Murray, Souness and Ogilvy (Souness even 10 years after he left as a bung for signing Tugay at Blackburn)

Murray group borrowed money from bank to pay Rangers loans

Look like all the money invested in Huns was actually loans not Murray's cash

[hibsbollah]

The most damning revelation (coming up shortly) surely is that the D&P partner, Grier, lied about what he knew about the Ticketus deal. So the independent arbiter of the administration, charged with getting money back for the creditors, is essentially in bed with Whyte.

The whole process has been a farce.

[Barney McGrew]

Ellis claiming Craig Whyte told him that Prince Albert of Monaco was one of his backers :greengrin

[Westie1875]

Prince Albert of Monaco :hilarious

[green glory]

Prince Albert of Monaco FFS! Lol.

[cabbageandribs1875]

whyte to ellis 'prince albert of monaco wanted to invest in the huns' :faf:

[One Day Soon]

Jesus, this is dynamite.

Either they are finished or the SPL is finished in my view. Doncaster cannot finesse or spin this. It is gargantuanly corrupt.

[Matty_Jack04]

The most damning revelation (coming up shortly) surely is that the D&P partner, Grier, lied about what he knew about the Ticketus deal. So the independent arbiter of the administration, charged with getting money back for the creditors, is essentially in bed with Whyte.

The whole process has been a farce.

Didn't whyte appoint these guys as administrators? Hardly independent and IMO shows how mickey mouse the whole farce has been from day one

[BEEJ]

Ian murray on it for 95 grand
Billy Dodds on that list for twice that amount - £190,000.

So BBC, as a party with a vested interest in a particular outcome, he should not be involved in any future on-air dialogue about Rangers' financial troubles.

[SBoyd79]

It's actually quiet funny too watch. Every single thing that's happened reeks of dodgyness

[Barney McGrew]

The financial institution that wrote the 'Proof of Funds' letter for the takeover was written by a company of which Whyte was actually a director. Said company has now gone bust.

[One Day Soon]

For those not watching

They're showing the success of the Gers but it's clear it was all built on mass dodginess

EBTs are only allowed if its a loan - they were never loans and there's documents to prove it

Now looking at Murray's career and how much he borrowed...

Loads of evidence, recipients of EBTs include Murray, Souness and Ogilvy (Souness even 10 years after he left as a bung for signing Tugay at Blackburn)

Murray group borrowed money from bank to pay Rangers loans

Look like all the money invested in Hubs was actually loans not Murray's cash


That essentially means the money Murray used to fund rangers, via the bank, was ours. Every mortgage payer or borrower paid for this.

[semaj64]

3rd division is too good for them.

[hibsbollah]

Didn't whyte appoint these guys as administrators? Hardly independent

Exactly the point.

[joe breezy]

I've been laughing since it started, Sammy the Hun and Craig Whyte...back to the data room

[leither17]

Billy Dodds on that list for twice that amount - £190,000.

So BBC, as a party with a vested interest in a particular outcome, he should not be involved in any future on-air dialogue about Rangers' financial troubles.

Murray had no side note so think that means he had no idea about it

[One Day Soon]

Surely we are at the stage where the boys in blue start to take an interest? Some of this seems clearly criminal.

[Eyrie]

I'm reading it that Murray got his loan from an EBT funded by Murray International Holdings rather than from one funded by the Huns.

But given the sheer number of cases where there is side letter evidence, it's about time that tax tribunal made its verdict public.

[HibbySpurs]

Seeing as how hun fans are bound to not like this does this mean we can expect to see mass boycotts of the BBC and protest marches on their HQ in Glasgow....

They would maybe suggest refusing to pay the licence fee but as most of them are conning, scrounging gits who will be dodging it as it is it wont have much effect:greengrin

[The_Todd]

Jesus, this is dynamite.

Either they are finished or the SPL is finished in my view. Doncaster cannot finesse or spin this. It is gargantuanly corrupt.

Absolutely. This is sickening and the worst part is they will get away with it.

[joe breezy]

Duff & Phelps appointed by Craig Whyte - and they arranged for Whyte to buy the club

Expert says they should never have accepted the job

Ha ha ha

[VickMackie]

Interesting that nearly all of the huge earners have evidence against them in form of the side letters.

They've not been paid back so how can they say that it wasn't an avoidance scheme?

Why is the decision taking so long? I can read that and tell you they're guilty of abusing the system!

[cabbageandribs1875]

get all they titles back of the ****s, dirty cheating f*****s every title they have won in the last decade is tainted, and the huns have the cheek to call this seasons championship tainted tae GTF CHEATS

[joe breezy]

Emails in BBC hands that prove Duff & Phelps were involved in the Ticketus deal

[One Day Soon]

This is completely mental

[joe breezy]

They should be stripped of every honour they won under this time, before they are liquidated completely

[Matty_Jack04]

Absolutely. This is sickening and the worst part is they will get away with it.

I'm struggling to see how they can get away with it now there all up to there eyeballs in the brown stuff

[One Day Soon]

The expression on that boy's face is priceless. He cannot believe what they have been up to.

[hibsbollah]

British Board of Catholics...
We Dont Do Walking Away...
No Change in The Big House.
Nothing to See Here.

[The_Todd]

I'm struggling to see how they can get away with it now there all up to there eyeballs in the brown stuff

Because this slimy little man is determined that a "New Rangers" will just join the SPL with no ties to the shambles which is about to implode:

8295

[silverhibee]

For Sammy the bear. :faf:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8x_59EjZOs


:faf::faf::faf::faf::faf::faf::faf::faf:


Death of a giant. :faf:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Wow! That is all!

[blackpoolhibs]

We are witnessing the death of a giant, yes please, although if you ask me its more of a dinosaur.:top marks:top marks:top marks

[cabbageandribs1875]

i do hope every chairman of every SPL club watched that

[Billy Whizz]

I had a hun friend who text me after the match on Saturday "Rangers are not the only club with problems'"
Ours will last for a few months, there's may be terminal

[Matty_Jack04]

@alextomo: Craig Whyte tonight: "thereks no way I duped David Murray. He fooled me if anything. I've been made the fall guy for all this."


Haha this Craig whyte is genius

[SMAXXA]

Wowwww simply Wowwww!

If all is true on what the documentery said expect to se Duffer and Duffer removed as administrators in the comming days.

Had to laugh "So that means Duff and Phelps are trying to sue themselves" hahahaha :greengrin, now that would put the icing on the cake, sums up this whole mess!

Its even more crooked and corupt than I ever realised. If they squirm out of this if beggers belief

[DarrenSQH]

Surely no one can defend rangers after that. It's worse than match fixing.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The starkest conflict of interests I've ever seen - that boy was quality!

[down-the-slope]

shame the season is over (maybe Beeb wanted it that way :rolleyes:) as I would love a phone in where Dodds gets asked when he is paying the £65k tax hes dodged :greengrin

[Part/Time Supporter]

Ellis claiming Craig Whyte told him that Prince Albert of Monaco was one of his backers :greengrin

Same Prince Albert who pulled his funding from AS Monaco a few years back (hence why they are now in Ligue 2 and owned by Russians).

[The_Todd]

Surely no one can defend rangers after that. It's worse than match fixing.

Its match fixing over 10 years essentially. And think of the knock on effect this has had on the SPL. If Rangers hadn't managed to pay players by cheating tax then Celtic wouldn't have spent as much to keep up with them, and who knows how healthy the SPL might be right now.

[One Day Soon]

HMRC should be applying right now for removal of the Duff & Phelps and their being replaced with properly independent administrators. The interests of every taxpayer demand that this charade of a 'mates rates' administration is blown wide open.

[cabbageandribs1875]

warner brothers, or disney film studios will have to make a film about that 'proud institution'

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Its even more crooked and corupt than I ever realised. If they squirm out of this if beggers belief

On the back of that programme, it'll be game over for football in Scotland if they do.

[Saorsa]

We are witnessing the death of a giant, yes please, although if you ask me its more of a dinosaur.:top marks:top marks:top marksIt's a giant dinosaur :wink:

[Barney McGrew]

After Duff and Duffer get their jotters the next question should be asked of the current SFA president, who took £95k out tax free.

Campbell Ogilvie did know. He must tender his resignation immediately.

[Ryan91]

Hopefully someone will come up with a picture of that Sammy bloke looking glum right at the very end.

Made me smile

:faf:

[Beefster]

Murray had no side note so think that means he had no idea about it

I think that the BBC doesn't have evidence of a side letter. It doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. It's highly unlikely that anyone applied from a 'loan' from a trust that they had no idea about.

[Mon Dieu4]

not that exciting I'm afraid.

Basically he was saying that the SPL can only enforce the rules as they exist. He clearly believes, or at least says he does, that there is no rule to stop a newco from taking rangers place in the league. I haven't checked yet but he reckoned SPL rules 11 & 13 means they can do a newco and get straight back in and that 14 which is the ones the club vote on would not come into play in this scenario.

I basically said that as a business I would not be happy at the SPL condoning one of there clubs running up debts with small businesses and then walking away from those debts. For that reason I was reconsidering my support to scottish football (which is fairly minimal but none the less). he gave the right noises about understanding but said again that they can only enforce the rules as they currently stand. I didn't have a copy of the rules so just said that I sincerely hoped they would be and that a lot of people would be watching to make sure they where.

He mentioned english clubs doing newcos a lot and I just said thats England, this is Scotland and i don't no of any newco examples in Scotland which sets a precedent. he didn't either.

hats off to him for phoning me, and he was at least prepared to give his position and point of view, however I'm not sure he yet gets what is about to happen.

Wish I had been better prepared but TBH never expected an email reply never mind a phone call so quickly.


you should 1471 him after that program and see what he has to say now

[semaj64]

I've been saying as much for months.
Craig whyte was allowed to think he was brokering the deal of a lifetime. Thought he was smart but murray is no fool. He has saved himself a small fortune.




Probably was the plan from the start

[silverhibee]

Have the fraud squad knocked down the front door of RFC yet.

And i bet a lot of these folk mentioned in that programme are all out the country by now. :cb

[SMAXXA]

After Duff and Duffer get their jotters the next question should be asked of the current SFA president, who took £95k out tax free.

Campbell Ogilvie did know. He must tender his resignation immediately.

I tend to agree.

It was probably only a matter of time before a member of the ESTABLISHMENT got rummbled for something crooked in this, get rid of them and the SFA. The SFA must be losing further credability in this. Scotland for change :agree:

[Www1875hfc]

After Duff and Duffer get their jotters the next question should be asked of the current SFA president, who took £95k out tax free.

Campbell Ogilvie did know. He must tender his resignation immediately.

And he is guilty of the same at Heart Of Midlothian. :agree:

Most,if not all the Liths are on double contracts.

Just wait and see,once Rangers are well out the road,HMRC have a list of clubs,and HOMFC are 1.

[3pm]

Does anyone know if this affects their invite to the Premiership?!

[Greentinted]

If someone presented this narrative as a TV/Film drama, it'd get laughed out for its lack of feasibility. :lolrangers:

Prince Albert of Monaco (and his PA looking bewildered when asked about Berts secret financing of Rangers), wee Sammy of Govan, Sir Davie doing a ****gy, and advice to the administrators re the conflict of interests - "Maybe Duff and Phelps should sue themselves" :hilarious

Arguably the best documentary on TV this year.

[GreenPJ]

Did anything come out about phone tapping?

[down-the-slope]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818

That is a great list :greengrin

Some on there got a loan equivelant to £30,000 per game played :faf:

After an enjoyable hour sped past watching that...surely a series must be possible with the speed of :******:at the moment...would make the football free summer better and go well with our thread :greengrin

[bighairyfaeleith]

you should 1471 him after that program and see what he has to say now

strangely enough he called from an unknown number, however he has my mobile so i'm sure he will call me to tell me I was right:greengrin

[semaj64]

Did anything come out about phone tapping?


That will be next weeks as they listen in on all the calls tonight

[SMAXXA]

Did anything come out about phone tapping?

Na but theres certainly been some ASS tapping going on

[Dalianwanda]

I just had a quick look on rangersmedia as can't get the programme in cork...apparently nothing new and nothing to worry about

[bighairyfaeleith]

I think that the BBC doesn't have evidence of a side letter. It doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. It's highly unlikely that anyone applied from a 'loan' from a trust that they had no idea about.

exactly, why would you apply for a loan, that doesn't need to be repaid, and only apply for 30k, surely you would want at least a million:cb

[One Day Soon]

Probably was the plan from the start

Clever lad. Follow the money....:wink:

[Part/Time Supporter]

After Duff and Duffer get their jotters the next question should be asked of the current SFA president, who took £95k out tax free.

Campbell Ogilvie did know. He must tender his resignation immediately.

Chick Dung was spinning the line a few months back, when it was revealed that Ogilvie had received EBT payments, that Ogilvie's payments would only pay for a "good night out". Well, either Campbell was telling him porkies, or Chick's idea of a night out is slightly different from most.

[Mon Dieu4]

Just checked a Hun forum for a chuckle and the consensus is

who is Sammy I've never seen him at Ibrox
BBC have no evidence its a sham
Sammy deserves a kicking
Graham Spiers new name is Britney( which did actually make me laugh)
If there was that much evidence we would have a ruling by now
Sammy is like an only excuse character(don't think they get irony)
the BBC is run by taigs
Sammy is a Celtic plant


don't think they like poor old Sammy much Haha

[One Day Soon]

exactly, why would you apply for a loan, that doesn't need to be repaid, and only apply for 30k, surely you would want at least a million:cb

Bollocks. That's unfair. By the way BHFL, can I ask you for loan of 100k? I don't know if you do loans, or even if you exist but I just thought I would completely randomly ask you for a loan that I'm hoping you might say yes to on the basis of my never having to repay it. That ok for you?

[bighairyfaeleith]

Bollocks. That's unfair. By the way BHFL, can I ask you for loan of 100k? I don't know if you do loans, or even if you exist but I just thought I would completely randomly ask you for a loan that I'm hoping you might say yes to on the basis of my never having to repay it. That ok for you?

no worries I'll just borrow it from another BHFL scheme anyways so it's all cool

[Sylar]

Other than the complicity of Duff and Phelps in the administration and takeover, it didn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

Perhaps the extent of the EBT scheme (which is staggering) but when one of the recipients is the president of the SFA, do you really see any damning outcomes from their investigation?

Self preservation has always been the order of the day with the SPL and undoubtedly, they'll sweep most of this under the Hampden turf.

What happens on a legal front is another matter - I would fully expect that Duff and Phelps need to come out and quickly make a statement in response to all of this or they'll swiftly be removed and proceedings perhaps started against them.

What they say may not even have a bearing actually - I'd expect they simply MUST be taken out of the process and investigated.

[snooky]

Surely we are at the stage where the boys in blue start to take an interest? Some of this seems clearly criminal.

Doubt it - Probably the same scenario as Duff and Duffer suing themselves, IMO

[bighairyfaeleith]

Other than the complicity of Duff and Phelps in the administration and takeover, it didn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

Perhaps the extent of the EBT scheme (which is staggering) but when one of the recipients is the president of the SFA, do you really see any damning outcomes from their investigation?

Self preservation has always been the order of the day with the SPL and undoubtedly, they'll sweep most of this under the Hampden turf.

What happens on a legal front is another matter - I would fully expect that Duff and Phelps need to come out and quickly make a statement in response to all of this or they'll swiftly be removed and proceedings perhaps started against them.

What they say may not even have a bearing actually - I'd expect they simply MUST be taken out of the process and investigated.

one for CWG or caversham i suspect, but who can remove an administrator, the courts?

Who would then investigate them, the police?

[Sylar]

I would fully expect that Duff and Phelps need to come out and quickly make a statement in response to all of this or they'll swiftly be removed and proceedings perhaps started against them.



Statement quickly released from Duff and Phelps, ignoring all accusations leveled at them:


Paul Clark, joint administrator, said: "The use of EBTs at Rangers goes back many years and was a matter of public record in the annual accounts. Our primary focus has been ensuring the survival of Rangers Football Club and attracting a new buyer for the business as well as investigating the financial situation at the Club since the takeover in May 2011. We and the Club will continue to give every assistance to the football authorities on issues affecting the Club. It should, however, be noted that the First Tier Tax tribunal has yet to publish its findings in relation to the use of EBTs."

[One Day Soon]

no worries I'll just borrow it from another BHFL scheme anyways so it's all cool

I don't know anything about that. I don't know where your money comes from. I don't care where your money comes from. I just take it and spend it and never pay it back. To me you are a giant fruit machine that pays out the jackpot every time I play it. And I don't even have to put any coins into it. You're such a good fruit machine that you pay out to all my mates on every play too.

[bighairyfaeleith]

Statement quickly released from Duff and Phelps, ignoring all accusations leveled at them:

that statement completely ignores there knowledge of the ticketus deal during the buyout

[One Day Soon]

that statement completely ignores there knowledge of the ticketus deal during the buyout

Yep. The dog that is spectacularly not barking right now.

[CropleyWasGod]

one for CWG or caversham i suspect, but who can remove an administrator, the courts?

Who would then investigate them, the police?

The Court can remove an Administrator, but I think there would have to be a petition from some other interested party, eg a creditor.

As for investigation, unless there was a suggestion of fraud, the only one I could see would be one by D & P's professional body for the alleged conflict of interest.

A side note.... it rips my knitting that people constantly refer to , in this case the forensic accountant, the Institute of Chartered Accountants.There ain't no such beast. There is the ICA of Scotland, the ICA of Ireland, and the ICA in England and Wales. Rant done.

[Sylar]

one for CWG or caversham i suspect, but who can remove an administrator, the courts?

Who would then investigate them, the police?

If the courts can appoint the administrator, I'm pretty sure they would have recourse to remove an administrator, particularly if the major creditor appealed in light of what we've seen tonight. Clearly with conflicting interests such as those highlight suggest they aren't fit for purpose.

I dare say legal investigation is one route open - there'll undoubtedly be a regulatory body for accountants who could probably also investigate them (maybe even the FSA, but I don't know if that extends beyond the banking industry) but I agree, probably one of the more knowledgeable chaps to answer.

[One Day Soon]

The Court can remove an Administrator, but I think there would have to be a petition from some other interested party, eg a creditor.

As for investigation, unless there was a suggestion of fraud, the only one I could see would be one by D & P's professional body for the conflict of interest.

A side note.... it rips my knitting that people constantly refer to , in this case the forensic accountant, the Institute of Chartered Accountants.There ain't no such beast. There is the ICA of Scotland, the ICA of Ireland, and the ICA in England and Wales. Rant done.

Or CIMA, or ACCA...

Do HMRC really just sit on the sidelines with D&P still in place given the clear conflict of interest revealed tonight? Surely they must petition?

[Sylar]

The Court can remove an Administrator, but I think there would have to be a petition from some other interested party, eg a creditor.

As for investigation, unless there was a suggestion of fraud, the only one I could see would be one by D & P's professional body for the alleged conflict of interest.

A side note.... it rips my knitting that people constantly refer to , in this case the forensic accountant, the Institute of Chartered Accountants.There ain't no such beast. There is the ICA of Scotland, the ICA of Ireland, and the ICA in England and Wales. Rant done.

Are the regulatory differences between the ICA of Scotland/England and Wales likely to be substantially different to permit the type of behaviour we've seen from this evening though?

I'd imagine the "fit and proper" test would be transferable across all UK/Irish accountancy firms, within the structure of British finance law?

[snooky]

Yep. The dog that is spectacularly not barking right now.

Is it a Golden Receiver?

[CropleyWasGod]

Or CIMA, or ACCA...

Do HMRC really just sit on the sidelines with D&P still in place given the clear conflict of interest revealed tonight? Surely they must petition?

It's only an allegation at the moment. The BBC have been wrong before.

I suspect that HMRC will want to consider their position carefully, and get as much of the "evidence" that the BBC seem to have, before thy hit the Court.

D&P could, of course, resign.

[stokesmessiah]

I just had a quick look on rangersmedia as can't get the programme in cork...apparently nothing new and nothing to worry about

Sadly i think they are almost right....That will not change a thing.

[CropleyWasGod]

Are the regulatory differences between the ICA of Scotland/England and Wales likely to be substantially different to permit the type of behaviour we've seen from this evening though?

I'd imagine the "fit and proper" test would be transferable across all UK/Irish accountancy firms, within the structure of British finance law?

They will be exactly the same. My point was one of pedantry, that the forensic chap was introduced as a member of a body that doesn't freaking exist.... :greengrin

[grunt]

A side note.... it rips my knitting that people constantly refer to , in this case the forensic accountant, the Institute of Chartered Accountants.There ain't no such beast. There is the ICA of Scotland, the ICA of Ireland, and the ICA in England and Wales. Rant done.
Heh heh. I think we all know that when people talk about THE Institute of Chartered Accountants, they are referring to ICAEW. :stirrer:

[green glory]

I'm guessing the likelihood of HMRC petitioning the Court of Session to have their own admins appointed, as per the original intention will become increasingly likely now?

A buyer in place and CVA agreed by 6th June, and a newco formed in time for next season are looking like utter fantasy now.

Looking at that bottle of single malt on the sideboard I'm saving for liquidation day. Shouldn't be long now till I get to open it.

[hibsbollah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818

That is a great list :greengrin

Some on there got a loan equivelant to £30,000 per game played :faf:

After an enjoyable hour sped past watching that...surely a series must be possible with the speed of :******:at the moment...would make the football free summer better and go well with our thread :greengrin

Alex Rae £569,000??? The boy done well :greengrin

[Kaiser1962]

It did, however, provide evidence of what we all thought.

A wee bit surprised to see George Adams on that list.




Other than the complicity of Duff and Phelps in the administration and takeover, it didn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

Perhaps the extent of the EBT scheme (which is staggering) but when one of the recipients is the president of the SFA, do you really see any damning outcomes from their investigation?

Self preservation has always been the order of the day with the SPL and undoubtedly, they'll sweep most of this under the Hampden turf.

What happens on a legal front is another matter - I would fully expect that Duff and Phelps need to come out and quickly make a statement in response to all of this or they'll swiftly be removed and proceedings perhaps started against them.

What they say may not even have a bearing actually - I'd expect they simply MUST be taken out of the process and investigated.

[CropleyWasGod]

Heh heh. I think we all know that when people talk about THE Institute of Chartered Accountants, they are referring to ICAEW. :stirrer:

F R O :greengrin

There is a senior employee at ICAS, part of whose job it is to come down heavily on anybody who follows the branding of ICAEW as THE ICA.

[DaveF]

The Court can remove an Administrator, but I think there would have to be a petition from some other interested party, eg a creditor.

As for investigation, unless there was a suggestion of fraud, the only one I could see would be one by D & P's professional body for the alleged conflict of interest.

A side note.... it rips my knitting that people constantly refer to , in this case the forensic accountant, the Institute of Chartered Accountants.There ain't no such beast. There is the ICA of Scotland, the ICA of Ireland, and the ICA in England and Wales. Rant done.

:nerd:

[CropleyWasGod]

:nerd:

Yeah, but I can assure you that the guys at D&P won't be members of ICAS. :wink:

[Sylar]

Interesting to note that there is also evidence that Celtic used an EBT which they did not declare to the SPL to aid in the payment of Juninho when he was with the club - granted, the amount is paltry by comparison to Rangers but nonetheless, they're clearly not alone in using the system and failing to declare:


Celtic confirmed that it established one EBT scheme in April 2005, which BBC Scotland understands was for the benefit of the Brazilian midfielder Juninho Paulista. The scheme was worth £765,000 but the club did not declare the trust payment to the Scottish Football Association or the Scottish Premier League.

[camhibby1]

The Court can remove an Administrator, but I think there would have to be a petition from some other interested party, eg a creditor.

As for investigation, unless there was a suggestion of fraud, the only one I could see would be one by D & P's professional body for the alleged conflict of interest.

A side note.... it rips my knitting that people constantly refer to , in this case the forensic accountant, the Institute of Chartered Accountants.There ain't no such beast. There is the ICA of Scotland, the ICA of Ireland, and the ICA in England and Wales. Rant done.

Didn't HMRC originally apply to have an administrator appointed and Whyte furiously argued for D&P in the court? My guess is that a great deal of the EBT content has been leaked from within HMRC and that this may actually be a prelude for HMRC, as the major creditor, to go back to the court, have D&P kicked out and then have their own administrators appointed leading to eventual liquidation. What is now obvious is the inadequacy of the SPL's rules and Doncaster's disingenuous attempts to justify the newco route without penalties. I doubt when the rules were first drawn up that anyone thought that 'we are the people' would embark upon a cheating and alleged criminal route. Close them down and expel them which we were told last week after the appeal was an option available to the committee originally appointed.

[JimBHibees]

I thought there were going to be allegations of phone hacking in this programme.

[Jack]

Is it a Golden Receiver?

Called Rusty!

[Sergey]

The Court can remove an Administrator, but I think there would have to be a petition from some other interested party, eg a creditor.

As for investigation, unless there was a suggestion of fraud, the only one I could see would be one by D & P's professional body for the alleged conflict of interest.

A side note.... it rips my knitting that people constantly refer to , in this case the forensic accountant, the Institute of Chartered Accountants.There ain't no such beast. There is the ICA of Scotland, the ICA of Ireland, and the ICA in England and Wales. Rant done.

Surely this is where the HMRC come into their own, considering they tried an 11th hour injunction to get a different administrator appointed prior to Whyte appointing Duff & Phelps.

Who is sitting on the forthcoming creditors panel? The ones who have to agree any pence to the pound settlement?

Is there even a definitive creditors list?

[down-the-slope]

Highlights...(or lowlights if a Rangers Fan)

David Murrays wealth put into Rangers was in fact circular bank loans via his companies

There were 111 (yes thats ONE HUNDRED & ELEVEN) induvudual EBT's within the main Trust and Beeb claim to have side letters (proving it was contractural) in a good number of these

President of SFA was an EBT beneficiary while at Rangers

At least one (Souness) receiving EBT payments after leaving (that just happen to co-incide with Tugay going from Gers to his new club)

Partner of Duff & Phelps (David Grier)appears to have lied about knowing of Ticketas Deal to Fund Whytes Take over

Forensic accountant reckons if true the Administartors are guilty of the worst case of conflict of interest he has seen

The letter from David Grier to Rangers confirming funds for take over were in place..was recycled info from a company Whyte owned (and is now bust)...and no one checked this.

The guy negotiating for SDM to find new buyer believed Whyte wehen he told him Prince Albert of Monaco was investing in Whytes take over...:not worth


etc etc

[Paisley Hibby]

I thought there were going to be allegations of phone hacking in this programme.

Good point - so did I. Maybe the BBC is keeping that for the sequel :wink:

[McSwanky]

So are the BBC still regarded as being pro Rangers?

[GordonHFC]

Didn't HMRC originally apply to have an administrator appointed and Whyte furiously argued for D&P in the court? My guess is that a great deal of the EBT content has been leaked from within HMRC and that this may actually be a prelude for HMRC, as the major creditor, to go back to the court, have D&P kicked out and then have their own administrators appointed leading to eventual liquidation. What is now obvious is the inadequacy of the SPL's rules and Doncaster's disingenuous attempts to justify the newco route without penalties. I doubt when the rules were first drawn up that anyone thought that 'we are the people' would embark upon a cheating and alleged criminal route. Close them down and expel them which we were told last week after the appeal was an option available to the committee originally appointed.

If the SPL/SFA find them guilty of double contracts, which I believe they will, then surely them being expelled is the only course of action they can make?

[Ryan91]

If the SPL/SFA find them guilty of double contracts, which I believe they will, then surely them being expelled is the only course of action they can make?

According to the rule book, that is probably the case. However, as we know, the rulebook is never taken into account when dealing with the OF.

[forthhibby]

So are the BBC still regarded as being pro Rangers?

Well I'd imagine they'll have one less rangers pundit after billy 'my wages were paid normally' Dodds resigns his job

[TheEastTerrace]

http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/football-news/article/2786614

http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/football-news/article/2786598

Who's tellin the fibs then? I feel asleep reading them!

[Www1875hfc]

Well I'd imagine they'll have one less rangers pundit after billy 'my wages were paid normally' Dodds resigns his job

‎2 March Billy Dodds stated categorically on BBC Sportsound he 'did not have an EBT'

Yet that list states he recieved 190,000 ?

Also Campbell Ogilvie 95,000.

Time for Ogilvie to stand down.
Scottish football is rotten to the core,and its just jobs for the boys.

[down-the-slope]

Newsnight Scotland on Beeb 2 .... Paul Murray apparently a guest....

[shagpile]

It did, however, provide evidence of what we all thought.

A wee bit surprised to see George Adams on that list.

Missed the prog so haven't watched it yet[sky+]. Father of ex assistant manager Derek Adams?

[HibbyDave]

Don't suppose any referees appeared on the list or "Super ar*ehole"?

[HibbyDave]

Interesting to note that there is also evidence that Celtic used an EBT which they did not declare to the SPL to aid in the payment of Juninho when he was with the club - granted, the amount is paltry by comparison to Rangers but nonetheless, they're clearly not alone in using the system and failing to declare:

Cracks appearing? what other clubs are currently bricking it?

[Bighoose]

Bob Malcolm had an EBT ..... perhaps someone can ask him to explain how that worked then.

"Err err err dunno like" :confused:

If Big Tax Case goes against RFC then surely what they have done is tantamount to match fixing by playing players they otherwise couldn't have afforded.

[ehf]

Sadly i think they are almost right....That will not change a thing.

No mate, this changes everything. That programme will have been in production for months and the BBC's lawyers will have been all over it. So what we got tonight is only the material they can 100% go public with.

They have evidence that Papac was on a double contract:so every game the Huns played last season (save for any when Papac wasn't in the squad) they lost 0-3. Slimecaster can equivocate all he likes but EUFA will call the shots now: this isn't some dodgy blog, it's the BBC. So, yay - we finished 10 last season and all that worry about relegation was a waste of time! And the Huns will be stripped of the hounours that we, the honest taxpayers, kindly bought for them in the 3 preceding seasons.

Never been a great fan of the BBC before, but I am proud of them tonight!

[sadtom]

It did, however, provide evidence of what we all thought.

A wee bit surprised to see Gerry Adams on that list.


Fixed that for you. :greengrin


Now THAT would have been a surprise!!

[stokesmessiah]

By the way....I have a new favourite moment in this whole debacle.

Cue Paul Baxendale-Walker......"Porn doesn't make you blind, running EBT's badly does"

Side splitting, pant wettingly funny.

[H18sry]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818

[stokesmessiah]

No mate, this changes everything. That programme will have been in production for months and the BBC's lawyers will have been all over it. So what we got tonight is only the material they can 100% go public with.

They have evidence that Papac was on a double contract:so every game the Huns played last season (save for any when Papac wasn't in the squad) they lost 0-3. Slimecaster can equivocate all he likes but EUFA will call the shots now: this isn't some dodgy blog, it's the BBC. So, yay - we finished 10 last season and all that worry about relegation was a waste of time! And the Huns will be stripped of the hounours that we, the honest taxpayers, kindly bought for them in the 3 preceding seasons.

Never been a great fan of the BBC before, but I am proud of them tonight!

I am not disagreeing with you at all, it still wont change anything though.

[ehf]

Yeah, but I can assure you that the guys at D&P won't be members of ICAS. :wink:

They will be licensed Insolvency Practitioners - but certain to be struck off now!

[clerriehibs]

No mate, this changes everything. That programme will have been in production for months and the BBC's lawyers will have been all over it. So what we got tonight is only the material they can 100% go public with.

They have evidence that Papac was on a double contract:so every game the Huns played last season (save for any when Papac wasn't in the squad) they lost 0-3. Slimecaster can equivocate all he likes but EUFA will call the shots now: this isn't some dodgy blog, it's the BBC. So, yay - we finished 10 last season and all that worry about relegation was a waste of time! And the Huns will be stripped of the hounours that we, the honest taxpayers, kindly bought for them in the 3 preceding seasons.

Never been a great fan of the BBC before, but I am proud of them tonight!

Unfortunately, those sanctions would apply to Rangers ... not newco Rangers.

[ehf]

I am not disagreeing with you at all, it still wont change anything though.

Er, you said it would't change anything, I said it changes everything, you say you're not disagreeing with me but it still won't chane anything??? Maybe you should apply to join Duff + Phelps...

[CropleyWasGod]

They will be licensed Insolvency Practitioners - but certain to be struck off now!

...only if the allegations are proved correct. :wink:

[stokesmessiah]

Er, you said it would't change anything, I said it changes everything, you say you're not disagreeing with me but it still won't chane anything??? Maybe you should apply to join Duff + Phelps...

My apologies, allow me to be clearer.

I agree with everything you said which should happen however this program is going to change nothing, as much as we all want them to suffer properly it wont happen.

[ehf]

Unfortunately, those sanctions would apply to Rangers ... not newco Rangers.

But the newco inherits the oldco's history: which will be minus the honours they "won" during the cheating years.

[Part/Time Supporter]

My apologies, allow me to be clearer.

I agree with everything you said which should happen however this program is going to change nothing, as much as we all want them to suffer properly it wont happen.

People said that about the first documentary. It directly led to the SFA investigation, which resulted in the 12 month transfer embargo.

[snooky]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18148818

Smile Nid, you're on Candid Camera. :wink:

[clerriehibs]

But the newco inherits the oldco's history: which will be minus the honours they "won" during the cheating years.

I don't think it does; it's a completely blank sheet, regardless of honest practise or cheating. And whatever the newco's history is or isn't, the Rangers fans will count whatever has gone before as their history, whatever anyone else, including the law, says. But Doncaster and the other SPL members who have no conscience won't bother about that, they just want Rangers in whatever form in the SPL.

[ehf]

My apologies, allow me to be clearer.

I agree with everything you said which should happen however this program is going to change nothing, as much as we all want them to suffer properly it wont happen.

OK, if I understand correctly, you are saying that the SPL and the SFL won't let it happen? I agree that those self-serving cowards would love to, and have tried their best, but my point is that it is out of their hands, now. The BBC, this nation's public service broadcaster, have pinned their colours to the mast: the sporting integrity mast. Which changes everything. To the extent that Sky/ESPN, sponsors etc will now have to change their tune and support sporting integrity as well.

[clerriehibs]

OK, if I understand correctly, you are saying that the SPL and the SFL won't let it happen? I agree that those self-serving cowards would love to, and have tried their best, but my point is that it is out of their hands, now. The BBC, this nation's public service broadcaster, have pinned their colours to the mast: the sporting integrity mast. Which changes everything. To the extent that Sky/ESPN, sponsors etc will now have to change their tune and support sporting integrity as well.

Umm, Sky - Murdoch - News International - integrity??? Where've you been for the past few months?

None of them will support an SPL without an Old Firm. So, plus ca change.

Edit; them being Sky/ESPN, sponsors ...

[stokesmessiah]

OK, if I understand correctly, you are saying that the SPL and the SFL won't let it happen? I agree that those self-serving cowards would love to, and have tried their best, but my point is that it is out of their hands, now. The BBC, this nation's public service broadcaster, have pinned their colours to the mast: the sporting integrity mast. Which changes everything. To the extent that Sky/ESPN, sponsors etc will now have to change their tune and support sporting integrity as well.

I hope you are right with that and i would like to see nothing more than RFC getting their comeuppance. But yes the cynic in me thinks that despite the programme tonight we will still have donkeys like Doncaster coming out and defending them and doing everything in their power to preserve their status.

[Hank Schrader]

I hope you are right with that and i would like to see nothing more than RFC getting their comeuppance. But yes the cynic in me thinks that despite the programme tonight we will still have donkeys like Doncaster coming out and defending them and doing everything in their power to preserve their status.

If anyone at the SFA or SPL brushes tonight's revelations under the carpet and continue to spout more rubbish about how Scottish football needs Rangers then the organisations that run our game are just as corrupt as the shower of cheating bassas that were shamed in tonight's programme.

If tonight's documentary and it's allegations make no significant change to the current administration setup at RFC then I'll be totally and utterly shocked. The conflict of interest is so blatantly obvious I see no other outcome but the removal of D&P.

I also can't see how this can't affect the current proposal to buy RFC. The whole deal was agreed with D&P therefore would a new administration team not have to renegotiate? Also, RFC don't have time on their side. Tonight's findings might just blow a huge hole in their bid to remain as a club under the current corporate structure.

Interesting days ahead I think.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm seriously considering paying my license fee!

[brythehibby]

Anyone know when its on the iplayer? Missed it. judging by the comments its a must see!

[ehf]

Umm, Sky - Murdoch - News International - integrity??? Where've you been for the past few months?

None of them will support an SPL without an Old Firm. So, plus ca change.

Edit; them being Sky/ESPN, sponsors ...

That's exactly the point! A year ago they wouldn't have cared about integrity, but now they have to be seen to do the right thing. At this point in time, reputation means far more than revenue: it's a golden opportunity for them to say "we're supporting Scottish football and sprting integrity, etc, etc".

[ehf]

If anyone at the SFA or SPL brushes tonight's revelations under the carpet and continue to spout more rubbish about how Scottish football needs Rangers then the organisations that run our game are just as corrupt as the shower of cheating bassas that were shamed in tonight's programme.

If tonight's documentary and it's allegations make no significant change to the current administration setup at RFC then I'll be totally and utterly shocked. The conflict of interest is so blatantly obvious I see no other outcome but the removal of D&P.

I also can't see how this can't affect the current proposal to buy RFC. The whole deal was agreed with D&P therefore would a new administration team not have to renegotiate? Also, RFC don't have time on their side. Tonight's findings might just blow a huge hole in their bid to remain as a club under the current corporate structure.

Interesting days ahead I think.

D+P's pathetic attempt at defending their position is that they were vaguely aware of Ticketus being involved, but only as a source of short-term working capital. As anyone involved in M+A work will know, that is complete b ollocks. It is inconceivable that Grier did not know how his client (Whyte) was funding the acquisition,

[Ryan91]

If anyone at the SFA or SPL brushes tonight's revelations under the carpet and continue to spout more rubbish about how Scottish football needs Rangers then the organisations that run our game are just as corrupt as the shower of cheating bassas that were shamed in tonight's programme.

If tonight's documentary and it's allegations make no significant change to the current administration setup at RFC then I'll be totally and utterly shocked. The conflict of interest is so blatantly obvious I see no other outcome but the removal of D&P.

I also can't see how this can't affect the current proposal to buy RFC. The whole deal was agreed with D&P therefore would a new administration team not have to renegotiate? Also, RFC don't have time on their side. Tonight's findings might just blow a huge hole in their bid to remain as a club under the current corporate structure.

Interesting days ahead I think.

Would expect HMRC to petition CoS tomorrow to get D&P removed as administrators, given the evidence of conflict of interest is now in the public domain.

[magpie1892]

Anyone know when its on the iplayer? Missed it. judging by the comments its a must see!

Just back in from Gary Numan in Glasgow (yes, I know) and looking for a link to this.

Can anyone help me and Bry?

[Saorsa]

Just back in from Gary Numan in Glasgow (yes, I know) and looking for a link to this.

Can anyone help me and Bry?It's no up yet, it's listed as coming soon

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01j0k6k/BBC_Scotland_Investigates_2012_Rangers_The_Men_Who _Sold_the_Jerseys/

[ScottB]

They always take forever to put up Scottish stuff, well, forever compared to stuff like Top Gear anyway, which pops up on iPlayer minutes after the show ends...

[magpie1892]

It's no up yet, it's listed as coming soon

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01j0k6k/BBC_Scotland_Investigates_2012_Rangers_The_Men_Who _Sold_the_Jerseys/

Cheers. If you see a link elsewhere, please let me know.

p.s. Brian from Doha says you look like Desperate Dan.

[Saorsa]

Cheers. If you see a link elsewhere, please let me know.

p.s. Brian from Doha says you look like Desperate Dan.:greengrin

[magpie1892]

From swallowswallow:

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3wA9hzGQGs&sns=em

Part - 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy0ZEBiShRA&sns=em

Part - 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKQtYiC9rG8&sns=em

Part - 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYOuKPwe-ow&sns=em

[crewetollhibee]

Just back in from Gary Numan in Glasgow (yes, I know) and looking for a link to this.

Can anyone help me and Bry?

Gary Numan ? Think your already beyond help tbh. :wink:

[Supraninja]

From swallowswallow:

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3wA9hzGQGs&sns=em

Part - 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy0ZEBiShRA&sns=em

Part - 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKQtYiC9rG8&sns=em

Part - 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYOuKPwe-ow&sns=em

Ta for the links! Whoever recorded this.. ASPECT RATIO WTF

[magpie1892]

Gary Numan ? Think your already beyond help tbh. :wink:

I did put a caveat in there.

Each to their own - I was too young to see him when he was in his pomp...

[crewetollhibee]

I did put a caveat in there.

Each to their own - I was too young to see him when he was in his pomp...

:aok:

[The Harp Awakes]

Is this not the worry?
Rangers go into liquidation an form a new company, areallowed to continue to play in the spl.
The revelations then apply to the old compny therefore, no action and the spl is rebranded as the rangers league.
The spl is dead.

I think the moral justification for the SPL allowing newco Rangers back into the SPL is waning fast. This whole saga is being shown to be a mess of mammoth proportions. The previous viewpoint which Doncaster and his SPL chums were banking on was along the lines that Rangers were the victims of one man, Mr Whyte, and therefore the Club were not totally culpable. Tonight's BBC allegations shift most of that blame onto David Murray and question the role of the administrators.

How the SPL ultimately deal with newco Rangers will be very much under the spotlight, more so than ever. If they re-instate newco Rangers they may not be able to fall back on the wegie press to defend their position:wink:

[Ryan91]

Is this not the worry?
Rangers go into liquidation an form a new company, areallowed to continue to play in the spl.
The revelations then apply to the old compny therefore, no action and the spl is rebranded as the rangers league.
The spl is dead.

If the club currently known as Rangers is liquidated and thus form a new club and should said new club be given Rangers place in the SPL expect to see several of clubs resigning from the SPL, ourselves and Celtic would probably be two of the first to leave.

[silverhibee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P0aVDo_498&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9ZtS64j2ks&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4vc_NPPt4A&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CYexPxRpFw&feature=related

[Drummer]

Is there a time period that the British goverment could go after these people who got EBT's for back taxesnot paid. Here in Canada it's 7years.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Is there a time period that the British goverment could go after these people who got EBT's for back taxesnot paid. Here in Canada it's 7years.

Different tax system for employees. In US + Canada, individual gets his salary from employer then has to account to tax authorities. Most people in UK don't have to do that because the employer is responsible for deducting the appropriate amount of tax. If the employer operates an incorrect scheme or fails to declare something, then the payment is grossed up and the employer is liable for the difference.

[IWasThere2016]

UEFA must be interested in this.

The level of incompetence/dishonesty in Duff and Duffer is staggeringly hilarious.

If they're no punted, I am finished with the SPL forever.

If SKY/ESPN walk, in support of these crooks, then I'll cancel ma subs - I suggest we all do and tell them exactly why.

Billy Dudds and Dick Dung are lying bassas - and both should join Campbell O in the dole queue this week.

I look forward to the latest guff from Neil Dungcaster - should be some new guff to bemuse us soon.

[flash]

Unfashionable as it is i feel sorry for the Rangers fans. I remember when we were shafted by a similar group of corrupt shysters and it's a horrible feeling.

The vast majority of punters at Ibrox are just normal guys who love their fitba albeit with a dodgy songbook thrown in.

I actually find the lust for blood amongst fans of other clubs, including ours, slightly distasteful and am thankful we didn't have to suffer anything like the same degree of scorn and vindictiveness back in the dark days of Duff, Gray Rowland et al.

[DaveF]

Unfashionable as it is i feel sorry for the Rangers fans. I remember when we were shafted by a similar group of corrupt shysters and it's a horrible feeling.

The vast majority of punters at Ibrox are just normal guys who love their fitba albeit with a dodgy songbook thrown in.

I actually find the lust for blood amongst fans of other clubs, including ours, slightly distasteful and am thankful we didn't have to suffer anything like the same degree of scorn and vindictiveness back in the dark days of Duff, Gray Rowland et al.

As dodgy as our shysters were, they were piss poor amatuers compared to what seems to have gone on at the huns.

And the lust for blood? Well, that might have something to do with the sackful of trophies garnered by the club as the cheating gathered pace. Who wouldn't feel bitter about that?

[Part/Time Supporter]

Unfashionable as it is i feel sorry for the Rangers fans. I remember when we were shafted by a similar group of corrupt shysters and it's a horrible feeling.

The vast majority of punters at Ibrox are just normal guys who love their fitba albeit with a dodgy songbook thrown in.

I actually find the lust for blood amongst fans of other clubs, including ours, slightly distasteful and am thankful we didn't have to suffer anything like the same degree of scorn and vindictiveness back in the dark days of Duff, Gray Rowland et al.

Huns were more than happy to lord it over everyone. Don't want to do the time? Don't do the crime. To compare systematic cheating over a prolonged period with the incompetence of Duff & Gray is laughable.

[marinello59]

Unfashionable as it is i feel sorry for the Rangers fans. I remember when we were shafted by a similar group of corrupt shysters and it's a horrible feeling.

The vast majority of punters at Ibrox are just normal guys who love their fitba albeit with a dodgy songbook thrown in.

I actually find the lust for blood amongst fans of other clubs, including ours, slightly distasteful and am thankful we didn't have to suffer anything like the same degree of scorn and vindictiveness back in the dark days of Duff, Gray Rowland et al.

Fair play to you for giving a view at odd with the majority on here.
The more we hear about what went on at Rangers the angrier I get. Last nights programme laid waste to the 'Craig Whyte did it and ran away' argument. Murray is as big a shyster as Whyte. The removal of SPL status and titles won during their years of cheating should be the minimum punishment.

[s.a.m]

Unfashionable as it is i feel sorry for the Rangers fans. I remember when we were shafted by a similar group of corrupt shysters and it's a horrible feeling.

The vast majority of punters at Ibrox are just normal guys who love their fitba albeit with a dodgy songbook thrown in.

I actually find the lust for blood amongst fans of other clubs, including ours, slightly distasteful and am thankful we didn't have to suffer anything like the same degree of scorn and vindictiveness back in the dark days of Duff, Gray Rowland et al.

I agree with you that their fans have been wronged. As said above, though, Rangers have massive achievements to their name on the back of their dodgy financial dealings - at the expense of others, and in a way which distorted the financial outlook on the game in Scotland. A lot of the anger is about the fact that Rangers, the footballing authorities, and Chairmen of some other clubs appear to value Rangers' presence in the SPL ahead of sporting integrity, and the sporting interests of the other teams.

I don't think the current crisis has much in common with our dark days. We had to dig ourselves out of that, with the help of STF, and would almost certainly have not been offered the kind of assistance that Rangers, Doncaster et al are looking for. We would have been left to rot.

[Peevemor]

Huns were more than happy to lord it over everyone. Don't want to do the time? Don't do the crime. To compare systematic cheating over a prolonged period with the incompetence of Duff & Gray is laughable.

Exactly. Shyster no. 1 in our affair was David Rowland who simply wanted to sell the assets - football wasn't even a consideration. Rangers, on the other hand, have cheated to attract the best possible players to the club (often to the detriment of other Scottish teams) - their recent domestic and European "success" has extremely dodgy foundations.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Fair play to you for giving a view at odd with the majority on here.
The more we hear about what went on at Rangers the angrier I get. Last nights programme laid waste to the 'Craig Whyte did it and ran away' argument. Murray is as big a shyster as Whyte. The removal of SPL status and titles won during their years of cheating should be the minimum punishment.

I tended to have a little sympathy with Flash's view up until previous, what I thought were decent Rangers supporters way above the usual sectarian crap, posted on my son's FB before the final that we were just mini Tims and they hoped we get humped. Said decent huns have now received emails from me telling them that I hope their club just dies.

[erskine-hibby]

Fair play to you for giving a view at odd with the majority on here.
The more we hear about what went on at Rangers the angrier I get. Last nights programme laid waste to the 'Craig Whyte did it and ran away' argument. Murray is as big a shyster as Whyte. The removal of SPL status and titles won during their years of cheating should be the minimum punishment.

This , plus they chased the big money from Europe to help fund this...it didn't work. They were willing to shaft every other club in the SPL, along with their cousins in the east end, by trying to join the EPL/ atlantic league, or any other league they could possibly get in bar Scotland and their fans backed them all the way. So i'm sorry if I can't feel anything for them or their fans except contempt.

[flash]

Cheers for the replies- i agree with the gist of them.
I suppose what i am trying to say is rather than risk losing thousands of fans to the game at a particularly bad time i would much rather see those directly responsible held to account in a court of law.
There is no doubt that a newco should have to start from the bottom.
As ever though the fans will be the ones who suffer most.

[H18sry]

George Adams, previous head of youth development at Ibrox, received a little over £30,000 through his EBT. Many of you may not have heard of this man (after all, he is hardly a household name), however, Mr Adams is the director of football at newly promoted Ross County, one of the teams who would theoretically have a vote in any decision to allow (or not allow) any NewCo Rangers back into the SPL. This is a conflict of interest. :agree:

[blackpoolhibs]

Unfashionable as it is i feel sorry for the Rangers fans. I remember when we were shafted by a similar group of corrupt shysters and it's a horrible feeling.

The vast majority of punters at Ibrox are just normal guys who love their fitba albeit with a dodgy songbook thrown in.

I actually find the lust for blood amongst fans of other clubs, including ours, slightly distasteful and am thankful we didn't have to suffer anything like the same degree of scorn and vindictiveness back in the dark days of Duff, Gray Rowland et al.

I understand what you are saying, but there's one question you should ask every hun you know. And thats would you change all that glory, and quality signings they made if you knew what was going to happen now?

Each and every hun i know has said no, they wouldn't change a thing. These were the best days of their lives supporting them they tell me.

Well they need that balanced out now imo, and perhaps their opinion might be different the next time?

[down-the-slope]

George Adams, previous head of youth development at Ibrox, received a little over £30,000 through his EBT. Many of you may not have heard of this man (after all, he is hardly a household name), however, Mr Adams is the director of football at newly promoted Ross County, one of the teams who would theoretically have a vote in any decision to allow (or not allow) any NewCo Rangers back into the SPL. This is a conflict of interest. :agree:

Yup....but compared to Campbell O who is head honcho at SFA who will be appeals body should SPL find against Rangers in 'double contracts'.....that is almost irrelevent.


There is going to be a lot more of this to come

8296


Any photo shop experts stick Doncasters head on this :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

This , plus they chased the big money from Europe to help fund this...it didn't work. They were willing to shaft every other club in the SPL, along with their cousins in the east end, by trying to join the EPL/ atlantic league, or any other league they could possibly get in bar Scotland and their fans backed them all the way. So i'm sorry if I can't feel anything for them or their fans except contempt.

This! They were more than happy to enjoy the good times, no questions asked. Payback!

[HFC 0-7]

Fair play to you for giving a view at odd with the majority on here.
The more we hear about what went on at Rangers the angrier I get. Last nights programme laid waste to the 'Craig Whyte did it and ran away' argument. Murray is as big a shyster as Whyte. The removal of SPL status and titles won during their years of cheating should be the minimum punishment.

I can see them getting punished, but I still think they will get away with it. The SPL seem to be taking their time with the investigation. IMO, I think it will be concluded shortly after Ranges have reformed as a Newco and therefore the SPL will take the stance of, 'they are a new company now and by law we cant punish them for something another company has done'. Rangers continue in the SPL.

If the SPL concluded their investigation now, and handed out the punishment and demoted them to division 3, the newco would have to start there. Doncaster is pushing this Newco being allowed straight back in. The SPL will say at the end of all this that they would have punished Old Rangers severely but their hands were tied as its now a different company.

[WindyMiller]

I can see them getting punished, but I still think they will get away with it. The SPL seem to be taking their time with the investigation. IMO, I think it will be concluded shortly after Ranges have reformed as a Newco and therefore the SPL will take the stance of, 'they are a new company now and by law we cant punish them for something another company has done'. Rangers continue in the SPL.

If the SPL concluded their investigation now, and handed out the punishment and demoted them to division 3, the newco would have to start there. Doncaster is pushing this Newco being allowed straight back in. The SPL will say at the end of all this that they would have punished Old Rangers severely but their hands were tied as its now a different company.


These EBT's have broken the SFA rules and the club should have it's membership withdrawn.

Takes the decision out of the SPL's hands.

If they're such a big club they can reform in the Juniors and work their way up.

[D7 Bohs]

Gary Numan ? Think your already beyond help tbh. :wink:

Difficult choice - Tubeway Army or (Down the) Tube(s)way Army?

[StevieC]

Yup....but compared to Campbell O who is head honcho at SFA who will be appeals body should SPL find against Rangers in 'double contracts'.....that is almost irrelevent.

Ogilvie should resign .. and if not he should be TOLD to step down.

Remember that Ogilvie also took this EBT scheme to Hearts when he left Rangers, so to say he knew nothing about players and side contracts must prove him to be an out and out liar.

[Kaiser1962]

An Observation;

Given that Celtic have now admitted that they used an EBT will those that are defending Rangers (SPL, Sportsound et al) use this to try to drag Celtic into this mess and argue that the quantity dosent matter but the fact that they did it should attract the same punishment. Albeit Celtic used it once and, when advised, they stopped it.

Furthermore this would be a good time for Hearts to admit theirs and it would make it difficult/awkward for firm penalties to be enforced against Rangers. and allow their own misdemeanours to slip under the radar.


As I said, just a thought.

[joe breezy]

An Observation;

Given that Celtic have now admitted that they used an EBT will those that are defending Rangers (SPL, Sportsound et al) use this to try to drag Celtic into this mess and argue that the quantity dosent matter but the fact that they did it should attract the same punishment. Albeit Celtic used it once and, when advised, they stopped it.

Furthermore this would be a good time for Hearts to admit theirs and it would make it difficult/awkward for firm penalties to be enforced against Rangers. and allow their own misdemeanours to slip under the radar.


As I said, just a thought.

I don't know the full details but think it was with Juninho and it was an inherited situation, perhaps Boro had been using an EBT on advice of an agent? As above as soon as Celtic knew it was dodgy they stopped it

Interestingly some Celtic fans are saying they would be happy to be stripped of their title that year.

[HFC 0-7]

These EBT's have broken the SFA rules and the club should have it's membership withdrawn.

Takes the decision out of the SPL's hands.

If they're such a big club they can reform in the Juniors and work their way up.

The SFA arent involved just now, if rangers reform into a newco and the SPL allow them back into the SPL, then the SPl announce their findings I am not sure if they can then do anything legally to punish the newco.

[Kaiser1962]

I don't know the full details but think it was with Juninho and it was an inherited situation, perhaps Boro had been using an EBT on advice of an agent? As above as soon as Celtic knew it was dodgy they stopped it

Interestingly some Celtic fans are saying they would be happy to be stripped of their title that year.

Totally agree but if I was of a mind to try to ensure that Rangers remained in the SPL the argument would be that they did it. Dosent matter how long or how many.


Of course this is nonsense and Celtic's EBT dosent even register when compared to others but, as I said, if you are trying to assist Rangers I can see how someone (Doncaster) might argue this point.


Incidentally ragerstaxcase.com won the 2012 Orwell Blog prize so a big well done to those guys for refusing to be silenced.

[greenginger]

An Observation;

Given that Celtic have now admitted that they used an EBT will those that are defending Rangers (SPL, Sportsound et al) use this to try to drag Celtic into this mess and argue that the quantity dosent matter but the fact that they did it should attract the same punishment. Albeit Celtic used it once and, when advised, they stopped it.

Furthermore this would be a good time for Hearts to admit theirs and it would make it difficult/awkward for firm penalties to be enforced against Rangers. and allow their own misdemeanours to slip under the radar.


As I said, just a thought.

Trouble with the Yams tax scam is the side letters were all in Lithuanian and coded by the Enigma Fax Machine. :greengrin

However, I still think Skacel court case with his agent, due to return to Court next month will prove the player was getting a lot more cash for playing for Hearts than the amount recorded in is Hearts Contract.

His Contract, according to press reports was for 190,000 Euros per year, thats about £ 3000 per week. I don't think he came back for that considering what others were on at the PBS.

[ScottB]

An Observation;

Given that Celtic have now admitted that they used an EBT will those that are defending Rangers (SPL, Sportsound et al) use this to try to drag Celtic into this mess and argue that the quantity dosent matter but the fact that they did it should attract the same punishment. Albeit Celtic used it once and, when advised, they stopped it.

Furthermore this would be a good time for Hearts to admit theirs and it would make it difficult/awkward for firm penalties to be enforced against Rangers. and allow their own misdemeanours to slip under the radar.


As I said, just a thought.

Celtic should also have every game the hidden EBT was used chalked off as 3-0 defeats as well. So in 2006, Aberdeen won the league and we finished second :greengrin

Use of EBT's isn't illegal, not declaring it / using hidden contracts is as far as the SFA / SPL are concerned, that's the issue.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Besides everything else, the programme claimed to have evidence connecting this whole thing directly to the team that was put on the pitch via EBT payments to players as salary top ups.

Ergo players who were otherwise unaffordable became affordable

Better players who brought more success

CHEATING



If this is proven, they're goners.

[calmac12000]

An Observation;

Given that Celtic have now admitted that they used an EBT will those that are defending Rangers (SPL, Sportsound et al) use this to try to drag Celtic into this mess and argue that the quantity dosent matter but the fact that they did it should attract the same punishment. Albeit Celtic used it once and, when advised, they stopped it.

Furthermore this would be a good time for Hearts to admit theirs and it would make it difficult/awkward for firm penalties to be enforced against Rangers. and allow their own misdemeanours to slip under the radar.


As I said, just a thought.

That's a good point as it shows that another club went down this path, but on reflection (and presumably more competent financial advice than the Huns recieved) realised the error of their ways. The Yams case as always with them is difficult to comment on, simply as not enough of their finacial information is readible acessible. I have to say that as icreasing light is shed upon the goings on at Castle Greyskull, one can't avoid the impression that the finaacial advice they recieved was analagous to that proffered by someone after they've spent a lengthy period imbibibng alcohol!

[lapsedhibee]

Interestingly some Celtic fans are saying they would be happy to be stripped of their title that year.

Hearts have been very farsighted in all this. It's now apparent that the reason that they didn't bother going for the CL title that year they were in it (because they would surely have won it, if they'd wanted to) was that they knew they'd eventually be stripped of it when their EBTs came to light. Previously I'd thought that the yams were living from one dodgy short-term fix to the next with players' wages and that, but here they've shown real vision. :agree:

[MyJo]

Celtic should also have every game the hidden EBT was used chalked off as 3-0 defeats as well. So in 2006, Aberdeen won the league and we finished second :greengrin

Use of EBT's isn't illegal, not declaring it / using hidden contracts is as far as the SFA / SPL are concerned, that's the issue.

An EBT itself is not illegal, however using one to provide pre-agreed payments as part of an employment (supplementing wages basically) is tax evasion and this is why the taxman is after them.
The hidden contracts given to players make this illegal from a tax point of view and also against the rules of the sfa/spl.

[Caversham Green]

not that exciting I'm afraid.

Basically he was saying that the SPL can only enforce the rules as they exist. He clearly believes, or at least says he does, that there is no rule to stop a newco from taking rangers place in the league. I haven't checked yet but he reckoned SPL rules 11 & 13 means they can do a newco and get straight back in and that 14 which is the ones the club vote on would not come into play in this scenario.

I basically said that as a business I would not be happy at the SPL condoning one of there clubs running up debts with small businesses and then walking away from those debts. For that reason I was reconsidering my support to scottish football (which is fairly minimal but none the less). he gave the right noises about understanding but said again that they can only enforce the rules as they currently stand. I didn't have a copy of the rules so just said that I sincerely hoped they would be and that a lot of people would be watching to make sure they where.

He mentioned english clubs doing newcos a lot and I just said thats England, this is Scotland and i don't no of any newco examples in Scotland which sets a precedent. he didn't either.

hats off to him for phoning me, and he was at least prepared to give his position and point of view, however I'm not sure he yet gets what is about to happen.

Wish I had been better prepared but TBH never expected an email reply never mind a phone call so quickly.

I have a copy of the rules (I can email it to you if you want) and there are no rules 11, 13 or 14 - the rule are annotated by letter/number/sub-number like A1.1 and the sections that go up to number 11 and above don't bear much relationship to this issue. I think he must be referring to the Articles of Association which I don't have - I'll see if I can get a copy.

From what I can see of the rules though, there is absolutely no provision for a newco, but there are a number of rules that could be read as specifically prohibiting one from joining the SPL.

If you or anyone else has any further dealings with Doncaster it might be worth asking him to forward copies of any documents he quotes.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Hearts have been very farsighted in all this. It's now apparent that the reason that they didn't bother going for the CL title that year they were in it (because they would surely have won it, if they'd wanted to) was that they knew they'd eventually be stripped of it when their EBTs came to light. Previously I'd thought that the yams were living from one dodgy short-term fix to the next with players' wages and that, but here they've shown real vision. :agree:

Ah, the big cup they are always going on about. Only right for a giant like Hearts.

[joe breezy]

Unfashionable as it is i feel sorry for the Rangers fans. I remember when we were shafted by a similar group of corrupt shysters and it's a horrible feeling.

The vast majority of punters at Ibrox are just normal guys who love their fitba albeit with a dodgy songbook thrown in.

I actually find the lust for blood amongst fans of other clubs, including ours, slightly distasteful and am thankful we didn't have to suffer anything like the same degree of scorn and vindictiveness back in the dark days of Duff, Gray Rowland et al.

We are the people?

There's a few alright ones but not many..

[big-mo]

Following the statement from the Killie chairman, Michael Johnston, who thinks that Rangers have been punished enough and no more sanctions should be taken against them, I think that supporters of all other clubs who oppose this view should boycott all matches at Rugby Park, and any other clubs that take Johnston's and Rangers side. If Johnston thinks that Rangers are key to his clubs existence, they may lose out on TV money and one or two visits of the current buns per season, but how much more would they lose if they played all season with no visiting supporters.

Tell me if you think this idea is rubbish or if you think that it might be a goer?

[PeeJay]

From swallowswallow:

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3wA9hzGQGs&sns=em

Part - 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy0ZEBiShRA&sns=em

Part - 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKQtYiC9rG8&sns=em

Part - 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYOuKPwe-ow&sns=em

Big thank you to you for posting the links - some amazing "revelations" in there :top marks

[Kojock]

I have a copy of the rules (I can email it to you if you want) and there are no rules 11, 13 or 14 - the rule are annotated by letter/number/sub-number like A1.1 and the sections that go up to number 11 and above don't bear much relationship to this issue. I think he must be referring to the Articles of Association which I don't have - I'll see if I can get a copy.

From what I can see of the rules though, there is absolutely no provision for a newco, but there are a number of rules that could be read as specifically prohibiting one from joining the SPL.

If you or anyone else has any further dealings with Doncaster it might be worth asking him to forward copies of any documents he quotes.

SPL Rules Effective 14th May 2012

http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/RULES%20EFFECTIVE%2014%20MAY%202012.pdf

SFA Articles of Association

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/SFAHandbook/09Articles.pdf

12.1 The Board may arrange for an inspection of all such books, records and details for
any purpose, including but not limited to, National Club Licensing. Such inspection
may be conducted by the Board, such authorised employees of the Association, the
Association’s auditors or other professional advisers duly appointed by the Board
on giving to any club or recognised football body reasonable notice of its intention
to do so.

Furthermore, all payments, whether made by the club or otherwise, which are to
be made to a player solely relating to his playing activities must be fully recorded
within the relevant written agreement with the player prior to submission to this
Association and/or the recognised football body of which his club is in membership.

[Kaiser1962]

An EBT itself is not illegal, however using one to provide pre-agreed payments as part of an employment (supplementing wages basically) is tax evasion and this is why the taxman is after them.
The hidden contracts given to players make this illegal from a tax point of view and also against the rules of the sfa/spl.

No EBT's are not illegal but if everything was above board and, more importantly, Rangers were supremely confident of their position, why the subterfuge, why the lack of cooperation? And if Billy Dodds is so sure that everything was legal and proper why did he lie on sportsound?

There is a definite incongruence between words and actions.

[Caversham Green]

SPL Rules Effective 14th May 2012

http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/RULES EFFECTIVE 14 MAY 2012.pdf

Articles of Association

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/SFAHandbook/09Articles.pdf

That's the articles of the SFA rather than the SPL, but the SPL rules are a newer version than I've got.

I've just ordered a copy of the SPL articles - I'll give my thoughts once I've had a chance to look at them.

[joe breezy]

A Sellick fans post but true

A short history of Rangers...
1872-1920 Normal Scottish club
1920-1989 Bigoted, sectarian institution, built on the hate pound
1988-2012 Buying trophies with money they didn't have. Officially multi-cultural but flirting with bigotry to retain the hate pound.


Financial doping/theft
1999-2012 Theft of money from Scottish clubs and tax authorities £500M+
2012-2015 Money expected to be lost from TV deal £50M


Scottish football verdict: Scotland needs Rangers.

[Kojock]

That's the articles of the SFA rather than the SPL, but the SPL rules are a newer version than I've got.

I've just ordered a copy of the SPL articles - I'll give my thoughts once I've had a chance to look at them.


Articles of Association of The Scottish Premier League Limited
As at 15 April 2010


http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/SPL%20Articles%20as%20at%2015-Apr-10%20(CURRENT).pdf

[JeMeSouviens]

I think they've removed these from the SPL website (wonder why? :rolleyes:):


11. Except where such transfer is occasioned by the promotion of an association football club from and relegation of a Club to the SFL the consent of the Board shall be required before the transfer of any Share shall be registered.

13. The Board shall refuse to register the transfer of a Share:-
(i) to a person who is not the owner and operator of a Club;
(ii) unless the instrument of transfer is lodged at the Office or at such other place as the Board may appoint and is accompanied by the certificate for the Share to which it relates;
(iii) except where the transfer arises on promotion of an association football club from and relegation of a Club to the SFL, the consent of the Board has not been given to the transfer;
(iv) if the transferor and/or transferee shall fail to provide such evidence as the Board may require to show the respective rights of the transferor to make the transfer and the transferee to become a Member;
(v) if the instrument of such transfer is in respect of more than one Share; or
(vi) if the transferee or an Associate of the transferee shall own or have an interest in any other Share.


14. If:-
(i) a Member shall cease to be entitled to hold a Share; or
(ii) a trustee in sequestration, manager, receiver or administrative receiver shall be appointed in respect of a Member or any property of a Member, or an administration order shall be made in respect of a Member or any property of a Member or an order shall be made or an
effective resolution passed for the winding up of a Member otherwise than for the purpose of reconstruction or amalgamation;
then that Member or its manager, receiver, administrative receiver, administrator or liquidator or any other person entitled to the Share shall, on receiving notice in writing from the Board following the Company in General Meeting passing a Qualified Resolution that such notice should be issued by the Board and confirming the identity of the proposed transferee, transfer its Share to such other person as the Board shall direct at the price of £1 and the Club owned and operated by such Member shall forthwith cease to be a member of the League and the Club owned and operated by the transferee shall become a member of the League in its place.

[Iain G]

Following the statement from the Killie chairman, Michael Johnston, who thinks that Rangers have been punished enough and no more sanctions should be taken against them, I think that supporters of all other clubs who oppose this view should boycott all matches at Rugby Park, and any other clubs that take Johnston's and Rangers side. If Johnston thinks that Rangers are key to his clubs existence, they may lose out on TV money and one or two visits of the current buns per season, but how much more would they lose if they played all season with no visiting supporters.

Tell me if you think this idea is rubbish or if you think that it might be a goer?

He does seem to be an old firm appologist doesn't he, might be do with the geography of Lanarkshire but more likely his club are spending more than they should be and are dependant on the Old Firm fans coming to Rugby Park to keep his club in profit. Money talks for some clubs, especially those in the immediate shadow of the Old Firm.

What he can't see is that Rangers and Celtic are what is wrong with Scottish football and they are strangling the life out of the game in Scotland.

Hopefully the East Coast clubs won't cave in to the financial arguement and stand firm and bring down the cheating Hun. :agree:

[SouthamptonHibs]

Not a bad idea. Always enjoyed the trip to Ayrshire but there fans are diet huns. Im sure theres more cream buns leave from Killie each Sat to go to Ibrox than actually attend a Killie game.
Hit them were it hurts and don't gee them the cash

[Caversham Green]

Articles of Association of The Scottish Premier League Limited
As at 15 April 2010


http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/SPL Articles as at 15-Apr-10 (CURRENT).pdf

Thanks Hamish - I could have saved myself a quid there...


I think they've removed these from the SPL website (wonder why? :rolleyes:):


11. Except where such transfer is occasioned by the promotion of an association football club from and relegation of a Club to the SFL the consent of the Board shall be required before the transfer of any Share shall be registered.

13. The Board shall refuse to register the transfer of a Share:-
(i) to a person who is not the owner and operator of a Club;
(ii) unless the instrument of transfer is lodged at the Office or at such other place as the Board may appoint and is accompanied by the certificate for the Share to which it relates;
(iii) except where the transfer arises on promotion of an association football club from and relegation of a Club to the SFL, the consent of the Board has not been given to the transfer;
(iv) if the transferor and/or transferee shall fail to provide such evidence as the Board may require to show the respective rights of the transferor to make the transfer and the transferee to become a Member;
(v) if the instrument of such transfer is in respect of more than one Share; or
(vi) if the transferee or an Associate of the transferee shall own or have an interest in any other Share.


14. If:-
(i) a Member shall cease to be entitled to hold a Share; or
(ii) a trustee in sequestration, manager, receiver or administrative receiver shall be appointed in respect of a Member or any property of a Member, or an administration order shall be made in respect of a Member or any property of a Member or an order shall be made or an
effective resolution passed for the winding up of a Member otherwise than for the purpose of reconstruction or amalgamation;
then that Member or its manager, receiver, administrative receiver, administrator or liquidator or any other person entitled to the Share shall, on receiving notice in writing from the Board following the Company in General Meeting passing a Qualified Resolution that such notice should be issued by the Board and confirming the identity of the proposed transferee, transfer its Share to such other person as the Board shall direct at the price of £1 and the Club owned and operated by such Member shall forthwith cease to be a member of the League and the Club owned and operated by the transferee shall become a member of the League in its place.

That says that admission is entirely at the board's discretion, which is not the impression Doncaster seems to have given BHFL. In any case, 13(i) could be argued to prohibit a newco since it is not the owner and operator of a club.

[Gez1875]

He does seem to be an old firm appologist doesn't he, might be do with the geography of Lanarkshire but more likely his club are spending more than they should be and are dependant on the Old Firm fans coming to Rugby Park to keep his club in profit. Money talks for some clubs, especially those in the immediate shadow of the Old Firm.

What he can't see is that Rangers and Celtic are what is wrong with Scottish football and they are strangling the life out of the game in Scotland.

Hopefully the East Coast clubs won't cave in to the financial arguement and stand firm and bring down the cheating Hun. :agree:

excellently put!!!!!

[PeterboroHibee]

Following the statement from the Killie chairman, Michael Johnston, who thinks that Rangers have been punished enough and no more sanctions should be taken against them, I think that supporters of all other clubs who oppose this view should boycott all matches at Rugby Park, and any other clubs that take Johnston's and Rangers side. If Johnston thinks that Rangers are key to his clubs existence, they may lose out on TV money and one or two visits of the current buns per season, but how much more would they lose if they played all season with no visiting supporters.

Tell me if you think this idea is rubbish or if you think that it might be a goer?

Are Killie not one of the clubs in real financial mess? It does appear to be a very short term view by him, but if theres a risk of his, or any club going bust due to a loss of revenue from Rangers not being in the SPL, you cant really blame them.

Not the stance I take mind you, Id be totally against a newco Rangers team being allowed back in, but I can understand where some of the smaller clubs are coming from in terms of a financial point of view.

[LancashireHibby]

Not a bad idea. Always enjoyed the trip to Ayrshire but there fans are diet huns. Im sure theres more cream buns leave from Killie each Sat to go to Ibrox than actually attend a Killie game.
Hit them were it hurts and don't gee them the cash
Bit of a contradiction in terms, surely? I've got plenty of respect for Killie/Motherwell/St Mirren/Ayr fans etc who stick by their local team instead of following Rantic. That said, this is isn't a question about the fans of those clubs and all to do with the stance of each club - if they support a NewCo staying in the SPL then I think it's only fair that they face some sort of backlash from fans of other clubs (and maybe even their own?)

[ancienthibby]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01j0k6k/BBC_Scotland_Investigates_2012_Rangers_The_Men_Who _Sold_the_Jerseys/

[greenginger]

I think they've removed these from the SPL website (wonder why? :rolleyes:):


11. Except where such transfer is occasioned by the promotion of an association football club from and relegation of a Club to the SFL the consent of the Board shall be required before the transfer of any Share shall be registered.

13. The Board shall refuse to register the transfer of a Share:-
(i) to a person who is not the owner and operator of a Club;
(ii) unless the instrument of transfer is lodged at the Office or at such other place as the Board may appoint and is accompanied by the certificate for the Share to which it relates;
(iii) except where the transfer arises on promotion of an association football club from and relegation of a Club to the SFL, the consent of the Board has not been given to the transfer;
(iv) if the transferor and/or transferee shall fail to provide such evidence as the Board may require to show the respective rights of the transferor to make the transfer and the transferee to become a Member;
(v) if the instrument of such transfer is in respect of more than one Share; or
(vi) if the transferee or an Associate of the transferee shall own or have an interest in any other Share.


14. If:-
(i) a Member shall cease to be entitled to hold a Share; or
(ii) a trustee in sequestration, manager, receiver or administrative receiver shall be appointed in respect of a Member or any property of a Member, or an administration order shall be made in respect of a Member or any property of a Member or an order shall be made or an
effective resolution passed for the winding up of a Member otherwise than for the purpose of reconstruction or amalgamation;
then that Member or its manager, receiver, administrative receiver, administrator or liquidator or any other person entitled to the Share shall, on receiving notice in writing from the Board following the Company in General Meeting passing a Qualified Resolution that such notice should be issued by the Board and confirming the identity of the proposed transferee, transfer its Share to such other person as the Board shall direct at the price of £1 and the Club owned and operated by such Member shall forthwith cease to be a member of the League and the Club owned and operated by the transferee shall become a member of the League in its place.

This is where Doncaster has been bullsh*tting ever since the Huns went into administration. He has stated that the Huns share transfer should be dealt with by the SPL Board under Clause 11 when the correct treatment under SPL Rules would be Clause 14 (2).

"----an administration order shall be made in repect of a Member ----" the share transfer has to be approved by " theCompany in general meeting passing a qualified resolution "
That is all SPL members voting 90 % in favour of Rangers SPL share going to the new football club which will replace Tax Dodging F C in the SPL. It could be Dundee, Dunfermline, or even a new Rangers F C . but that is what the SPL Rules state and Doncaster should be removed if he can't stomach the prospect of applying the rules correctly.

[Brooster]

Not a bad idea. Always enjoyed the trip to Ayrshire but there fans are diet huns. Im sure theres more cream buns leave from Killie each Sat to go to Ibrox than actually attend a Killie game.
Hit them were it hurts and don't gee them the cash

I think you are way off the mark with that one SH. I have friends who are season ticket holders at Killie, Ive spent a lot of time in the company of Killie fans and I can assure you they hate Rangers just as much as us. I was speaking to a Killie fan yesterday and he is raging at Jonston's stance on the newco situation.

[PatHead]

13. The Board shall refuse to register the transfer of a Share:-
(i) to a person who is not the owner and operator of a Club;
(ii) unless the instrument of transfer is lodged at the Office or at such other place as the Board may appoint and is accompanied by the certificate for the Share to which it relates;
(iii) except where the transfer arises on promotion of an association football club from and relegation of a Club to the SFL, the consent of the Board has not been given to the transfer;

BHFL- I understand Mr Doncaster has said there are no rules relating to a newco within SPL Articles. Any chance you could email him asking him to clarify Article 13(iii)? Only reason I am asking is you will probably have a better chance of a reply.

BTW Hearts shareholders meeting today. I have asked a friend to ask what Hearts view on the newco route would be? Doubt he will have the gonads so if anyone else knows someone going to the meeting give them a call and ask them to do the same?

[PatHead]

Hearts AGM at lunchtime today. I have asked a friend to ask what Hearts take is on a newco getting straight into SPL. Don't think he will have balls to ask the question. Anyone else got a friend going who might ask and if they do can you call them? Would love to know their thoughts as they have never said a word.

Ta

[doddsy]

It is my humble but honest opinion that thousand s of fair minded fans of lots of clubs in scotland will be lost to the game forever if rangers are not properly punished for financial suicide. I don t know what that punishment should be but it must be fair and must be seen to be fair. i think the time for sweeping under the carpet is gone and if there is to be a broom involved it should be used to clean up the sfa, with a good clearout of the blazers behind the scenes who must have known what was going on. If not then the good men still in scottish football should let the fans know who these people are. i hope i make sense and think the questions must be asked and answered properly. what do you think.

[cad]

Not a bad idea. Always enjoyed the trip to Ayrshire but there fans are diet huns. Im sure theres more cream buns leave from Killie each Sat to go to Ibrox than actually attend a Killie game.
Hit them were it hurts and don't gee them the cash



Cant say Ive found that Davy ,always got on well with the Killie supporters ,but its up to themselves to get shot of that bellend Johnston,
if they dont I cant see many going to Rugby Park .

[Expecting Rain]

It is my humble but honest opinion that thousand s of fair minded fans of lots of clubs in scotland will be lost to the game forever if rangers are not properly punished for financial suicide. I don t know what that punishment should be but it must be fair and must be seen to be fair. i think the time for sweeping under the carpet is gone and if there is to be a broom involved it should be used to clean up the sfa, with a good clearout of the blazers behind the scenes who must have known what was going on. If not then the good men still in scottish football should let the fans know who these people are. i hope i make sense and think the questions must be asked and answered properly. what do you think.

Agree, if the cheating goes unpunished then the implication is that the rest of us only exist to prop up a successful Rangers, ta ta SPL.

[Cropley10]

We should all remember as this unfolds that not that long ago Rangers (and Celt c) were desperate to get out of Scottish Football.

For anyone to tell us that we 'need' Rangers or any New Club called something like Rangers is ridiculous. If they could have gone they would, now they want us to save them!!

[TrinityHibs]

Trouble with the Yams tax scam is the side letters were all in Lithuanian and coded by the Enigma Fax Machine. :greengrin

However, I still think Skacel court case with his agent, due to return to Court next month will prove the player was getting a lot more cash for playing for Hearts than the amount recorded in is Hearts Contract.

His Contract, according to press reports was for 190,000 Euros per year, thats about £ 3000 per week. I don't think he came back for that considering what others were on at the PBS.

You saying that Satchel might be on the take and so would have been ineligible for the cup final? Now that has the potential to be the best news ever.

[Derek Dougan]

With the lengths Mark Daly went to get his information, I'm just wondering if Mr Charles Green is maybe having second thoughts? Somehow I don't think he is squeaky clean :hmmm: