Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Kato]

Strange also there's no mention of contracts & payments being funneled through Lithuania to allow Yams to avoid tax & buy players they could not otherwise afford!

Not strange at all. I would expect every Jambo on earth to ignore that aspect with every fibre of their horrible being.

There are of course hints at other scams, Skatchel's declared wages in court not quite matching up to what he was getting, the Hearts player who on applying for a mortgage telling the lender that his wages were in fact larger than was shown on the documentation he provided. Circumstantial and unprovable but if I were one of them (eeyuch) I'd be keeping my head under the parapet on this subject. They cheated Scottish football just as much as Rangers (rip) .




Now why does that sound familiar & is it sheer coincidence that Campbell (Teflon) Ogilvie was heavily involved with both Yams & Sevco at the time both clubs were flouting the rules & leaving a trail of debts?

We should approach the President of the SFA for clarification. Who holds that post these days?

[Jack]

I think there's some folk allowing their distrust, for want of a better word, to dismiss or lessen the importance of legitimate points raised by people that may be Yams, even if the ironing seems to be piling up!

If somehow the Scottish football authorities acted with integrity, follow following their own rules and precedents sevco will be hammered but importantly the blood letting is unlikely to stop there. The Yams could well be next on the hit list.

I'm quite happy for them to pepper the blog sphere, as I am for anyone with reasonable points to make, as I believe it will add to the pressure for the football authorities to do the right thing.

Aye OK it's the Scottish football authorities but even then I'm hopeful!

[Kato]

Quite an audacious solution for Scottish Football suggested by The Rangers. Let's forget it all with no questions asked.


http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-international-football-club-statement-2/


THE SPFL Board has stated they held a conference call to be given a factual update on the Court of Session EBT ruling and so it would be remiss of the Rangers Board not to state the Club’s view.

The first thing to be said is that Rangers has made it clear it wishes to reach out and work with all clubs to help revitalise Scottish football, which has also suffered in recent years. There is much to be done and Rangers wants to be part of the way forward.

Our game has to become more attractive to potential sponsors and partners if the finance levels required are to be generated but this can only be done if we present a coherent and united strategy. Therefore, a line must be drawn now if we are all to prosper.

It is our irrevocable belief that this Club’s history, including its many successes, is beyond debate. Rangers cannot countenance or accept any talk, attempts or actions designed to undermine what this Club has achieved throughout its long history.

So, as far as this Club is concerned there is no need for further SPFL consideration of court judgements or appeals. They should be saying it is time for everyone to move on and work together for the greater good of the game. Scottish football has suffered enough.

....til next time.

[EdinMike]

Wow... The audacity to come out with a statement like that, I'de hammer them twice as hard now...

[jacomo]

Quite an audacious solution for Scottish Football suggested by The Rangers. Let's forget it all with no questions asked.


http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-international-football-club-statement-2/


THE SPFL Board has stated they held a conference call to be given a factual update on the Court of Session EBT ruling and so it would be remiss of the Rangers Board not to state the Club’s view.

The first thing to be said is that Rangers has made it clear it wishes to reach out and work with all clubs to help revitalise Scottish football, which has also suffered in recent years. There is much to be done and Rangers wants to be part of the way forward.

Our game has to become more attractive to potential sponsors and partners if the finance levels required are to be generated but this can only be done if we present a coherent and united strategy. Therefore, a line must be drawn now if we are all to prosper.

It is our irrevocable belief that this Club’s history, including its many successes, is beyond debate. Rangers cannot countenance or accept any talk, attempts or actions designed to undermine what this Club has achieved throughout its long history.

So, as far as this Club is concerned there is no need for further SPFL consideration of court judgements or appeals. They should be saying it is time for everyone to move on and work together for the greater good of the game. Scottish football has suffered enough.

....til next time.

Oh dear me. They've spent the past three years bleating about the injustice of it all and making veiled threats about how other clubs are going to pay for treating Rangers so badly, but now it's all about working together for the good of Scottish football?

They are so insincere it is untrue. That history they bought for a fiver is tainted. I didn't think stripping titles is the answer but something needs to cut through their shocking arrogance.

[CropleyWasGod]

Quite an audacious solution for Scottish Football suggested by The Rangers. Let's forget it all with no questions asked.


http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-international-football-club-statement-2/


THE SPFL Board has stated they held a conference call to be given a factual update on the Court of Session EBT ruling and so it would be remiss of the Rangers Board not to state the Club’s view.

The first thing to be said is that Rangers has made it clear it wishes to reach out and work with all clubs to help revitalise Scottish football, which has also suffered in recent years. There is much to be done and Rangers wants to be part of the way forward.

Our game has to become more attractive to potential sponsors and partners if the finance levels required are to be generated but this can only be done if we present a coherent and united strategy. Therefore, a line must be drawn now if we are all to prosper.

It is our irrevocable belief that this Club’s history, including its many successes, is beyond debate. Rangers cannot countenance or accept any talk, attempts or actions designed to undermine what this Club has achieved throughout its long history.

So, as far as this Club is concerned there is no need for further SPFL consideration of court judgements or appeals. They should be saying it is time for everyone to move on and work together for the greater good of the game. Scottish football has suffered enough.

....til next time.

... including the EBT years, then? :cb

[southsider]

Wow... The audacity to come out with a statement like that, I'de hammer them twice as hard now...

I agree a 10 year ban for that club representing Scotland in European competition is in order. In addition the £250,000 fine which is overdue a 7 day penalty notice must be given whereafter a 1.5% per day charge should be imposed.

[Springbank]

The part in bold...

the quickest most sure fire way to improve the promotion of Scottish football would be, quite simply

(1) end the two horse race and get a variety of potential winners (rangers use of ebt directly went against this)

and

(2) ban every single person who enters a football stadium then sings songs of hate, that have nothing to do with football.
They are not welcome on the streets of leith and I don't want these people (of all teams) being heard on my tv in my front room either.

kick out sectarianism, and get a 5 horse race for the title and you'll see much greater interest in the product



Quite an audacious solution for Scottish Football suggested by The Rangers. Let's forget it all with no questions asked.


http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-international-football-club-statement-2/


THE SPFL Board has stated they held a conference call to be given a factual update on the Court of Session EBT ruling and so it would be remiss of the Rangers Board not to state the Club’s view.

The first thing to be said is that Rangers has made it clear it wishes to reach out and work with all clubs to help revitalise Scottish football, which has also suffered in recent years. There is much to be done and Rangers wants to be part of the way forward.

Our game has to become more attractive to potential sponsors and partners if the finance levels required are to be generated but this can only be done if we present a coherent and united strategy. Therefore, a line must be drawn now if we are all to prosper.

It is our irrevocable belief that this Club’s history, including its many successes, is beyond debate. Rangers cannot countenance or accept any talk, attempts or actions designed to undermine what this Club has achieved throughout its long history.

So, as far as this Club is concerned there is no need for further SPFL consideration of court judgements or appeals. They should be saying it is time for everyone to move on and work together for the greater good of the game. Scottish football has suffered enough.

....til next time.

[kaimendhibs]

You could almost believe a statement like that could only come from a glib and shameless liar👀👀

[Treadstone]

I would love to know who writes and/or sanctions these statements. If ever I needed a PR firm Level 5 would be at the bottom of the list.

[BroxburnHibee]

Quite an audacious solution for Scottish Football suggested by The Rangers. Let's forget it all with no questions asked.


http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-international-football-club-statement-2/


THE SPFL Board has stated they held a conference call to be given a factual update on the Court of Session EBT ruling and so it would be remiss of the Rangers Board not to state the Club’s view.

The first thing to be said is that Rangers has made it clear it wishes to reach out and work with all clubs to help revitalise Scottish football, which has also suffered in recent years. There is much to be done and Rangers wants to be part of the way forward.

Our game has to become more attractive to potential sponsors and partners if the finance levels required are to be generated but this can only be done if we present a coherent and united strategy. Therefore, a line must be drawn now if we are all to prosper.

It is our irrevocable belief that this Club’s history, including its many successes, is beyond debate. Rangers cannot countenance or accept any talk, attempts or actions designed to undermine what this Club has achieved throughout its long history.

So, as far as this Club is concerned there is no need for further SPFL consideration of court judgements or appeals. They should be saying it is time for everyone to move on and work together for the greater good of the game. Scottish football has suffered enough.

....til next time.

Putting aside the audacity of that statement it raises an important point

What would it take for the rest of Scottish football to draw a line in the sand and move on?

The continuous poison this is creating certainly makes it difficult for our game to move on and sell itself better.

Personally I'd like to see a negotiation on it - there's no way Rangers will agree to stripping of titles so what could they be willing to offer.

[Ozyhibby]

I would love to know who writes and/or sanctions these statements. If ever I needed a PR firm Level 5 would be at the bottom of the list.

Level 5 are out, too expensive. Chris Graham doing their PR now.


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[Treadstone]

Level 5 are out, too expensive. Chris Graham doing their PR now.


Not according to Grant Russell from STV. Jabba told assembled press no EBT questions before magic hats presser last week. Another wrong one for Phil.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Quite an audacious solution for Scottish Football suggested by The Rangers. Let's forget it all with no questions asked.


http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-international-football-club-statement-2/

THE SPFL Board has stated they held a conference call to be given a factual update on the Court of Session EBT ruling and so it would be remiss of the Rangers Board not to state the Club’s view.

The first thing to be said is that Rangers has made it clear it wishes to reach out and work with all clubs to help revitalise Scottish football, which has also suffered in recent years. There is much to be done and Rangers wants to be part of the way forward.

Our game has to become more attractive to potential sponsors and partners if the finance levels required are to be generated but this can only be done if we present a coherent and united strategy. Therefore, a line must be drawn now if we are all to prosper.

It is our irrevocable belief that this Club’s history, including its many successes, is beyond debate. Rangers cannot countenance or accept any talk, attempts or actions designed to undermine what this Club has achieved throughout its long history.

So, as far as this Club is concerned there is no need for further SPFL consideration of court judgements or appeals. They should be saying it is time for everyone to move on and work together for the greater good of the game. Scottish football has suffered enough.

....til next time.

Can I use the term "reach out"?

Use of the term is dependent on one question:

Are you a member of The Four Tops?
If Yes then you can use the term "reach out"
If No then unfortunately you cannot use the term "reach out" .

[MyJo]

Putting aside the audacity of that statement it raises an important point

What would it take for the rest of Scottish football to draw a line in the sand and move on?

The continuous poison this is creating certainly makes it difficult for our game to move on and sell itself better.

Personally I'd like to see a negotiation on it - there's no way Rangers will agree to stripping of titles so what could they be willing to offer.

option a - "Rangers folded and we are a new club founded in 2012 using the assets of the club formerly known as Glasgow Rangers" everyone moves on.

option b - "We are Glasgow Rangers F.C, we cheated and gained a sporting advantage through the use of a tax avoidance scheme" Rangers stripped of titles won while using EBT's and an effort made to repay money owed to HMRC.

If they did either of these things i think the majority of scottish football fans would be satisfied and move on, but its rangers and thier arrogance and sense of entitlement means they expect to walk away from all liability to the concequences of cheating and living beyond thier means (screwing creditors and taxpayers in the process) while still retaining the history of a now-defunct football club and the achievements they gained through this systematic and deliberate cheating.

[CropleyWasGod]

option a - "Rangers folded and we are a new club founded in 2012 using the assets of the club formerly known as Glasgow Rangers" everyone moves on.

option b - "We are Glasgow Rangers F.C, we cheated and gained a sporting advantage through the use of a tax avoidance scheme" Rangers stripped of titles won while using EBT's and an effort made to repay money owed to HMRC.

If they did either of these things i think the majority of scottish football fans would be satisfied and move on, but its rangers and thier arrogance and sense of entitlement means they expect to walk away from all liability to the concequences of cheating and living beyond thier means (screwing creditors and taxpayers in the process) while still retaining the history of a now-defunct football club and the achievements they gained through this systematic and deliberate cheating.

That would be illegal, as it gives preference to HMRC over all the other creditors. And RFC don't do illegal things. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Not according to Grant Russell from STV. Jabba told assembled press no EBT questions before magic hats presser last week. Another wrong one for Phil.

Yeah, I saw that. Their last couple of statements have been real amateur hour efforts though. Maybe they've scaled back the fat slug's involvement rather than got rid altogether?

[CropleyWasGod]

Can I use the term "reach out"?

Use of the term is dependent on one question:

Are you a member of The Four Tops?
If Yes then you can use the term "reach out"
If No then unfortunately you cannot use the term "reach out" .

And only the Four Tops can use the term...

Just walk away.

[JeMeSouviens]

Quite an audacious solution for Scottish Football suggested by The Rangers. Let's forget it all with no questions asked.


Just read it to the end ...



Scottish football has suffered enough.

Genuine LOLZ moment there, priceless! :faf::not worth

[CropleyWasGod]

Putting aside the audacity of that statement it raises an important point

What would it take for the rest of Scottish football to draw a line in the sand and move on?

The continuous poison this is creating certainly makes it difficult for our game to move on and sell itself better.

Personally I'd like to see a negotiation on it - there's no way Rangers will agree to stripping of titles so what could they be willing to offer.

There is merit in the argument that says RFC (old/new/whatever) have served their time. Just as many on here would have wished on Hearts, they had to start again at the bottom and play their way up. Whether they have done that in the "correct" manner, and learned the financial lessons of the past, has still to be played out.

There is also an argument that says that the lower end of Scottish football has benefited financially from the presence of the hordes, although whether the local police and communities of Peterhead, Annan et al would agree is another matter.

For me, and probably for many others, punishment is one thing, but contrition is another. Today's statement doesn't seem to indicate much of that; neither does their financial situation.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Quite an audacious solution for Scottish Football suggested by The Rangers. Let's forget it all with no questions asked.


http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-international-football-club-statement-2/


THE SPFL Board has stated they held a conference call to be given a factual update on the Court of Session EBT ruling and so it would be remiss of the Rangers Board not to state the Club’s view.

The first thing to be said is that Rangers has made it clear it wishes to reach out and work with all clubs to help revitalise Scottish football, which has also suffered in recent years. There is much to be done and Rangers wants to be part of the way forward.

Our game has to become more attractive to potential sponsors and partners if the finance levels required are to be generated but this can only be done if we present a coherent and united strategy. Therefore, a line must be drawn now if we are all to prosper.

It is our irrevocable belief that this Club’s history, including its many successes, is beyond debate. Rangers cannot countenance or accept any talk, attempts or actions designed to undermine what this Club has achieved throughout its long history.

So, as far as this Club is concerned there is no need for further SPFL consideration of court judgements or appeals. They should be saying it is time for everyone to move on and work together for the greater good of the game. Scottish football has suffered enough.

....til next time.

No shame, no remorse......Why don't you just admit you are a new Co, or Old Co but cheated the system, then shut the heck up......Arrogant bigots....

[GlesgaeHibby]

Nice balanced views on Sportscene from Steven Thompson and Stuart McCall. They both say rangers didn't cheat because the trophies were won on the park!? What does that even mean? Maybe they should take their heads out their backsides and realise the players on the park could only be afforded through EBTs.

They were quoting ex Celtic people like Martin O'Neill with the trophies were won on the park and apparently many across football agree. No mention of the majority of fans, players etc who think it was as clear a case of cheating as you can get.

Unfortunately I feel this is the type of bluff that the football authorities will hide behind and try to make out that their is no appetite for justice or that some who used to be at Celtic says it's ok so it must be.

Completely embarassing, and yet totally expected.

The argument that the trophies were won on the park is laughable. By the same logic, Lance Armstrong won his trophies on his bike so they should still stand?

BBC at their best again though refusing to challenge it. Rangers won countless trophies by cheating. Yes they had the better team on the park, but the team was only assembled by cheating therefore the results are illegitimate.

[EdinMike]

No shame, no remorse......Why don't you just admit you are a new Co, or Old Co but cheated the system, then shut the heck up......Arrogant bigots....

Like I said to someone the other day, it's a case of "You can't have your cake and eat it"

What are you !? Are you a new club with 2 division titles to your name or are and old club that accepts the debt it has to repay ?! If you are new, well those stars over your badge have to go.

[brog]

Not according to Grant Russell from STV. Jabba told assembled press no EBT questions before magic hats presser last week. Another wrong one for Phil.

John James recently said that due to the embarrassing recent statements that Level 5 were back in. That went well then! :greengrin

[Jim44]

Nice balanced views on Sportscene from Steven Thompson and Stuart McCall. They both say rangers didn't cheat because the trophies were won on the park!? What does that even mean? Maybe they should take their heads out their backsides and realise the players on the park could only be afforded through EBTs.

They were quoting ex Celtic people like Martin O'Neill with the trophies were won on the park and apparently many across football agree. No mention of the majority of fans, players etc who think it was as clear a case of cheating as you can get.

Unfortunately I feel this is the type of bluff that the football authorities will hide behind and try to make out that their is no appetite for justice or that some who used to be at Celtic says it's ok so it must be.

Thompson and McCall are Huns, so you wouldn't expect anything else from them. The likes of Martin O'Neill and other apologists will have some vested interest in keeping the Old Firm incest alive.

[JeMeSouviens]

Thompson and McCall are Huns, so you wouldn't expect anything else from them. The likes of Martin O'Neill and other apologists will have some vested interest in keeping the Old Firm incest alive.

Even better than that, Thompson is a Hun who had an EBT and stands to lose a "winner's" medal from his 3 domestic honours with the old Huns. Pretty impartial viewpoint there ... :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-ibrox-code/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Baldy Foghorn]

Like I said to someone the other day, it's a case of "You can't have your cake and eat it"

What are you !? Are you a new club with 2 division titles to your name or are and old club that accepts the debt it has to repay ?! If you are new, well those stars over your badge have to go.

Exactly, time for them to decide who they really are?

[Jack]

There is merit in the argument that says RFC (old/new/whatever) have served their time. Just as many on here would have wished on Hearts, they had to start again at the bottom and play their way up. Whether they have done that in the "correct" manner, and learned the financial lessons of the past, has still to be played out.

There is also an argument that says that the lower end of Scottish football has benefited financially from the presence of the hordes, although whether the local police and communities of Peterhead, Annan et al would agree is another matter.

For me, and probably for many others, punishment is one thing, but contrition is another. Today's statement doesn't seem to indicate much of that; neither does their financial situation.

But they haven’t served their time on the new charges.

If a murderer is in jail and other murders come to light he's back in court!

[chinaman]

wow... The audacity to come out with a statement like that, i'de hammer them twice as hard now...
i demand the death penalty
shameless hun filth

[CropleyWasGod]

But they haven’t served their time on the new charges.

If a murderer is in jail and other murders come to light he's back in court!

The charges aren't new, though. This case has been around since before admin. It's only the fact that they continue to deny the charges, that keeps the case going.

I'm not disagreeing, BTW, I'm just exploring what kind of compromise, if any, might be reached.

[PatHead]

He actually, IMO, makes many good points but unfortunately much of it is undone by the guff in bold below. Maxing out the overdraft & credit card doesn't really account for stiffing creditors to the tune of £30m, including more than £2million to UK taxpayers. Strange also there's no mention of contracts & payments being funneled through Lithuania to allow Yams to avoid tax & buy players they could not otherwise afford! Now why does that sound familiar & is it sheer coincidence that Campbell (Teflon) Ogilvie was heavily involved with both Yams & Sevco at the time both clubs were flouting the rules & leaving a trail of debts?

Hearts, like many others, did (on a larger scale admittedly - and they shouldn't have) maxed out both overdraft and credit card.

They paid for it. They went into administration, took the massive points deduction that went with it, accepted their culpability and managed to appeal to the good grace of their creditors to negotiate a CVA that allowed them to get something back.

Far from ideal, and you would be hard-pressed to find a Hearts fan who is proud of what happened.

Every Hearts supporter I know is proud of their Scottish Cup cheating win so it isn't that hard to find.

[jacomo]

There is merit in the argument that says RFC (old/new/whatever) have served their time. Just as many on here would have wished on Hearts, they had to start again at the bottom and play their way up. Whether they have done that in the "correct" manner, and learned the financial lessons of the past, has still to be played out.

There is also an argument that says that the lower end of Scottish football has benefited financially from the presence of the hordes, although whether the local police and communities of Peterhead, Annan et al would agree is another matter.

For me, and probably for many others, punishment is one thing, but contrition is another. Today's statement doesn't seem to indicate much of that; neither does their financial situation.

They haven't been serving their time. They weren't 'relegated' or 'demoted' as a punishment for anything.

They folded, they went bust, and caused an almighty crisis for Scottish football. They were then given help to get back on their feat by immediate re admission to the League.

This issue is not about Rangers becoming bankrupt. It's about cheating.

[jacomo]

[/I]
Every Hearts supporter I know is proud of their Scottish Cup cheating win so it isn't that hard to find.

:agree:

They couldn't give a toss. Nae shame.

[ancient hibee]

Nothing will happen.

When they set up the EBTs they like lots of companies thought they were OK withe Revenue-the Revenue eventually didn't think so and for the time being have won their case.

As far as the side letters are concerned Rangers have been fined but have not paid the fine.The independent commission ridiculously decided that Rangers obtained no advantage on the playing field from their actions.That will not be revisited.

[Kato]

Don't think this has been heard before - the evidence of The Mysterious "Mr Black".

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rangers-cheated-football-fraudulent-silverware/10066

[CropleyWasGod]

Don't think this has been heard before - the evidence of The Mysterious "Mr Black".

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rangers-cheated-football-fraudulent-silverware/10066

Sitting on the fence as usual :greengrin

One little moan, though....."the former Rangers owners now face at last paying the British state the tax and NI they dodged for all those years."

No they won't.

[JeMeSouviens]

Don't think this has been heard before - the evidence of The Mysterious "Mr Black".

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rangers-cheated-football-fraudulent-silverware/10066

I'm sure it'll be mentioned a few hundred or so pages ago. :wink:

The FTT findings were anonymised (when published, they didn't give their evidence wearing paper bags), colours for the management (Murray was Black, McLeish - Violet, Martin Bain, Scarlet, etc) and the players were towns (Barry Ferguson - Ipswich is the only one I remember for some reason).

[JeMeSouviens]

Btw, guess who said ... ? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2161850/Rangers-crisis-Dave-King-apologises.htm)


Clearly, that is not for Charles Green to do. But I am happy to say that I really believe we should be saying sorry and I think there is something to be sorry about.
And as a former director when these things were going on, I am minded to do so.
With regard to EBTs, I was on the board so I have to take some responsibility.
And I follow the logic of the argument that if we lose the tax case then we probably gained some competitive advantage.
I believe that, on behalf of myself and most of the board members who were with me and probably agree with me, that we should apologise for that.

[Onceinawhile]

Btw, guess who said ... ? (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2161850/Rangers-crisis-Dave-King-apologises.htm)

What a find. Looking forward to the reparations!

[grunt]

One little moan, though....."the former Rangers owners now face at last paying the British state the tax and NI they dodged for all those years."

No they won't.
Er, why not? Surely if the HMRC have won the case and BDO don't appeal again, then HMRC have a claim against RFC(IL)? I realise they won't get all of it back, but won't they get a bigger payout from the Ticketus money which BDO obtained?

Or have I got it all wrong again?

[CropleyWasGod]

Er, why not? Surely if the HMRC have won the case and BDO don't appeal again, then HMRC have a claim against RFC(IL)? I realise they won't get all of it back, but won't they get a bigger payout from the Ticketus money which BDO obtained?

Or have I got it all wrong again?
Like you say, they won't get it all back. Last I saw, it was something like 13p in the £.

That blog seems to think they will. That's my only quibble with it.

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[Jim44]

Thompson and McCall are Huns, so you wouldn't expect anything else from them. The likes of Martin O'Neill and other apologists will have some vested interest in keeping the Old Firm incest alive.

Not all Celtic players, as they would have us believe, think that Sevco won fairly and squarely on the pitch. Ex-Celt, Darren O'Dea has said that they should be stripped of every tainted title.

[Spike Mandela]

Rangers apologists out in force tonight on Sportsound with Graham Spiers of all people being the only one to even consider that Rangers did anything wrong.

Stuart McCall sounding like a typical thick Gers pub bore.

[Sammy7nil]

I am a bit stupid so can someone please explain why The Rangers are talking about being stripped of THIER titles. Surely they are 2 different clubs. If they are the same club why will they not be liable for the big tax debt if they are found guilty. Why dont the press / media highlight this simple point. As i say i maybe missing the point please explain.

[greenginger]

I am a bit stupid so can someone please explain why The Rangers are talking about being stripped of THIER titles. Surely they are 2 different clubs. If they are the same club why will they not be liable for the big tax debt if they are found guilty. Why dont the press / media highlight this simple point. As i say i maybe missing the point please explain.


Because the new club bought the history and titles of the old club.

They didn't bother buying the debts which were left with the old club.

[jacomo]

Because the new club bought the history and titles of the old club.

They didn't bother buying the debts which were left with the old club.

They are the same club when it suits them. And a totally separate entity when it doesn't. Obviously. :wink:

[Sammy7nil]

Because the new club bought the history and titles of the old club.

They didn't bother buying the debts which were left with the old club.

Really, i did not know that, obviously they are well within their rights to be miffed :wink:

[Libby Hibby]

Campbell Ogilvie is the link between this filthy, organised, dishonest and cheating behaiviour from Oldco and the SFA...proving that our national organisation set up to protect the game is directly involved in this illegal behaiviour...mark my words, the SFA do not want this EBT saga to be proven once and for all due to the spiders web of deciet caused by Ogilvie will unveil

[Ronniekirk]

There is merit in the argument that says RFC (old/new/whatever) have served their time. Just as many on here would have wished on Hearts, they had to start again at the bottom and play their way up. Whether they have done that in the "correct" manner, and learned the financial lessons of the past, has still to be played out.

There is also an argument that says that the lower end of Scottish football has benefited financially from the presence of the hordes, although whether the local police and communities of Peterhead, Annan et al would agree is another matter.

For me, and probably for many others, punishment is one thing, but contrition is another. Today's statement doesn't seem to indicate much of that; neither does their financial situation.

This is spot on for me ,There is absolutely no contrition in that statement ,and their arrogance knows no bounds
The fact they put out such a statement is telling everyone else you won't take our titles off us and it's time to move on They want to dictate to everyone else a position that suits them Why not just keep thier traps shut and leave the authorities to decide what if anything should be done
They will buy in the January Transfer window if they see us as a threat and yet again try and buy another title .The football authorities have no intention of taking them on and just wish Ashley would force their hand
But he is biding his time .
It's difficult for me to draw a line under it when they go on acting like this .
No doubt they will find money to strengthen their squad in January as well despite everything that's going on



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[GreenLake]

Campbell Ogilvie is the link between this filthy, organised, dishonest and cheating behaiviour from Oldco and the SFA...proving that our national organisation set up to protect the game is directly involved in this illegal behaiviour...mark my words, the SFA do not want this EBT saga to be proven once and for all due to the spiders web of deciet caused by Ogilvie will unveil

I wonder if Ogilvie has ambitions to take over from Sepp Blatter at FIFA.

[emerald green]

Nice balanced views on Sportscene from Steven Thompson and Stuart McCall. They both say rangers didn't cheat because the trophies were won on the park!? What does that even mean? Maybe they should take their heads out their backsides and realise the players on the park could only be afforded through EBTs.

They were quoting ex Celtic people like Martin O'Neill with the trophies were won on the park and apparently many across football agree. No mention of the majority of fans, players etc who think it was as clear a case of cheating as you can get.

Unfortunately I feel this is the type of bluff that the football authorities will hide behind and try to make out that their is no appetite for justice or that some who used to be at Celtic says it's ok so it must be.

:agree: Yep McCall was slavering something about Rangers were winning on the "playing surface" I think he said. Nothing said about the club having an unfair financial advantage.


Well Thompson would he had an EBT for 475k when at Rangers.

Thompson looked to me to be quite uncomfortable (embarrassed or annoyed perhaps?) when the point was put to him and Dodds that many fans of other clubs are saying the Ibrox club should be stripped of titles won during the EBT years.

Thompson of course did not agree. As Mandy Rice Davies famously said..."he would say that, wouldn't he?"

[Hibbyradge]

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rangers-cheated-football-fraudulent-silverware/10066

[greenginger]

Campbell Ogilvie is the link between this filthy, organised, dishonest and cheating behaiviour from Oldco and the SFA...proving that our national organisation set up to protect the game is directly involved in this illegal behaiviour...mark my words, the SFA do not want this EBT saga to be proven once and for all due to the spiders web of deciet caused by Ogilvie will unveil


Ogilvie was also operations director with Hearts during the tax dodging loan players from Kaunas FC period and the Rudi Skacel special deal with Vlad that we won't register with the SPL fraud.

[Deansy]

Quite an audacious solution for Scottish Football suggested by The Rangers. Let's forget it all with no questions asked.


http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/rangers-international-football-club-statement-2/


THE SPFL Board has stated they held a conference call to be given a factual update on the Court of Session EBT ruling and so it would be remiss of the Rangers Board not to state the Club’s view.

The first thing to be said is that Rangers has made it clear it wishes to reach out and work with all clubs to help revitalise Scottish football, which has also suffered in recent years. There is much to be done and Rangers wants to be part of the way forward.

Our game has to become more attractive to potential sponsors and partners if the finance levels required are to be generated but this can only be done if we present a coherent and united strategy. Therefore, a line must be drawn now if we are all to prosper.

It is our irrevocable belief that this Club’s history, including its many successes, is beyond debate. Rangers cannot countenance or accept any talk, attempts or actions designed to undermine what this Club has achieved throughout its long history.

So, as far as this Club is concerned there is no need for further SPFL consideration of court judgements or appeals. They should be saying it is time for everyone to move on and work together for the greater good of the game. Scottish football has suffered enough.

....til next time.


Proof that they've no remorse of the damage they've done to Scottish Football - SFA should use it as reason for either stripping their titles or just voiding the trophies.

[greenlex]

Ogilvie was also operations director with Hearts during the tax dodging loan players from Kaunas FC period and the Rudi Skacel special deal with Vlad that we won't register with the SPL fraud.

If the eventually do erase the trophy haul from Rangers then they have to strip at the very least the last Hearts cup win as it is on record in a court somewhere that Rudi was being paid a sum from Lithuania that the SFA/ SPL had no record of. This is exactly what Rangers received their £350k fine for. This would be pleasing as they could then "officially " ram their 5-1 caper.👍👍👍

[Ozyhibby]

If the eventually do erase the trophy haul from Rangers then they have to strip at the very least the last Hearts cup win as it is on record in a court somewhere that Rudi was being paid a sum from Lithuania that the SFA/ SPL had no record of. This is exactly what Rangers received their £350k fine for. This would be pleasing as they could then "officially " ram their 5-1 caper.[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

That's why we chase Sevco. [emoji23]
You then let Sevco whataboutery do the rest. The SFA only listen to old firm fans.


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[Jim44]

Sevco are saying that they simply won't accept any stripping of their titles. Now we know that the blazers are frightened of them, but, if they ever grow a pair and take action, do Sevco have any say in the matter?

[CropleyWasGod]

Sevco are saying that they simply won't accept any stripping of their titles. Now we know that the blazers are frightened of them, but, if they ever grow a pair and take action, do Sevco have any say in the matter?

As the owner of a member of the SPFL and SFA, yep.

[greenginger]

That's why we chase Sevco. [emoji23]
You then let Sevco whataboutery do the rest. The SFA only listen to old firm fans.


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If the SFA announce they are going to revisit Rangers EBT cheating we have to supply chapter and verse on Hearts's Kaunas loan players and the Rudi Skacel special deal so it gets investigated at the same time.

These issues seem to have passed under the radar of the rest of Scottish football.

[Treadstone]

BBC Bluenose correspondent Richard Wilson with the "we've been punished enough" line. Starts getting tasty quarter of an hour in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p037m4h7

[Jim44]

As the owner of a member of the SPFL and SFA, yep.

I can see that they will have member power and rights, but, if the other members unanimously vote for action against them, can they refuse to accept it?

[CropleyWasGod]

I can see that they will have member power and rights, but, if the other members unanimously vote for action against them, can they refuse to accept it?

I would doubt it.

It would be in character for them to take things to Court but, IIRC, the SFA rules forbid that as well.

[grunt]

If the SFA announce they are going to revisit Rangers EBT cheating we have to supply chapter and verse on Hearts's Kaunas loan players and the Rudi Skacel special deal so it gets investigated at the same time. These issues seem to have passed under the radar of the rest of Scottish football.
In fact one major blog is saying that the issues don't compare at all - I disagree with him. https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2015/11/08/dick-dastardly-he-never-stood-a-chance/

[CropleyWasGod]

In fact one major blog is saying that the issues don't compare at all - I disagree with him. https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2015/11/08/dick-dastardly-he-never-stood-a-chance/

This bit:-

Hearts spent big, but they didn’t systematically avoid paying their social taxes. They didn’t leave themselves in a position where they were beyond the understanding of their creditors. And they didn’t get themselves into a postion where the validity of many of their player registrations for the best part of a decade is open to question.

In technical terms, kack.

He does, though, start pulling on a thread which, ultimately, may put the authorities off digging too deeply. If Hearts can be punished, aren't the others guilty as well? Livi (LC 04), Dundee (D1 wins), Gretna. ......

[greenginger]

In fact one major blog is saying that the issues don't compare at all - I disagree with him. https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2015/11/08/dick-dastardly-he-never-stood-a-chance/



That's what I was saying a few posts back. Scottish football is oblivious to what the Yams got up to.

Post on the Clumpany site and put them right or they'll get away with it again.

[Kato]

Hearts sought to "avoid" UK Tax by registering players with Kaunas then "loaning" them to Hearts even though the players might never have set foot in Lithuania. The players paid smoe UK tax and some in Lithuania. A court hearing on appeal from HMRC found this to be tax avoidance and claimed the back-dated legal taxes due to them from Hearts. Hearts were given time to pay this in installments but went into administration before the payments were finished.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's pretty simple, similar to the way Rangers avoided tax but the mechanism was different.

[jacomo]

BBC Bluenose correspondent Richard Wilson with the "we've been punished enough" line. Starts getting tasty quarter of an hour in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p037m4h7

Again, what punishment have they received to date?

[Bostonhibby]

Again, what punishment have they received to date?

People call them names, like Cheats, the now defunct Glasgow rangers, sevco, zombies, the team formerly known as Glasgow rangers, the rangers, the the huns etc. Feel free to add..............

That's in addition to all of the pre existing names that belong to the old liquidated club.

It's a bloody shame as they exemplify all that's good about our country, in the seventeenth century anyway.

[Dan Sarf]

It's time to call a halt to all these false accusations and name calling. Honestly, the new Rangers are really nice...

“The first thing to be said is that Rangers has made it clear it wishes to reach out and work with all clubs to help revitalise Scottish football, which has also suffered in recent years. There is much to be done and Rangers wants to be part of the way forward.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/rangers-we-won-t-stand-for-stripping-of-ebt-titles-1-3941704#ixzz3r5dP8pZA

[JeMeSouviens]

Again, what punishment have they received to date?

I think these are the penalties accumulated due to the Old Huns' cheating:

- 10 pt penalty for entering admin
- £160K fines in total for how they ended up in admin
- 12 month registration ban
- £250K fine for EBT registration dodginess

Of those, the 160K and 12 month signing ban were taken on by the New Huns in exchange for being allowed to transfer the SFA membership of the Old Huns (the infamous 5 way agreement). Of course, the SFA then rolled over and bent their own rules by shifting the signing ban until after the transfer window. :rolleyes:

The SPL share of the Old Huns wasn't transferred (note, this was not a punishment) but the New Huns were fast tracked into the SFL.

The £250K fine is disputed by the New Huns (nowt to do with us, we're just the same club :rolleyes: ).

[Dan Sarf]

... and anyway, they're not having it. Hope that is clear?


“It is our irrevocable belief that this club’s history, including its many successes, is beyond debate. Rangers cannot countenance or accept any talk, attempts or actions designed to undermine what this club has achieved throughout its long history."

[ballengeich]

I would doubt it.

It would be in character for them to take things to Court but, IIRC, the SFA rules forbid that as well.

I think the rules state that the Court of Arbitration for Sport should be the appeal body before the law is brought in.

However, they've ignored that rule once before and weren't punished for it. It was a disgrace that when they went to Court and overturned their transfer embargo the SFA tribunal never reconvened to suspend or expel them.

[Ozyhibby]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/20105317

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/hearts/204009-hearts-settle-big-tax-case-with-hmrc-to-pay-15m-bill-over-three-years/

Not a single penny of this tax was paid.
HMRC ruled the scheme illegal just like they have done with Rangers use of EBT's.
Most Rangers fans are too stupid to do the research though.


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[Treadstone]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/20105317

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/hearts/204009-hearts-settle-big-tax-case-with-hmrc-to-pay-15m-bill-over-three-years/

Not a single penny of this tax was paid.
HMRC ruled the scheme illegal just like they have done with Rangers use of EBT's.
Most Rangers fans are too stupid to do the research though.


Not just Rangers fans. Doesn't fit the narrative of "The Clumpany" so they just disregard.

[Hibs Class]

... and anyway, they're not having it. Hope that is clear?


“It is our irrevocable belief that this club’s history, including its many successes, is beyond debate. Rangers cannot countenance or accept any talk, attempts or actions designed to undermine what this club has achieved throughout its long history."


A level of certainty reminiscent of the founding members of the Flat Earth Society.

[GreenOnions]

BBC Bluenose correspondent Richard Wilson with the "we've been punished enough" line. Starts getting tasty quarter of an hour in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p037m4h7

Interesting. I think one issue that wasn't covered is that relating to what was the ultimate purpose behind the use of EBTs.

They established the fact that EBTs themselves are not illegal and that the way Rangers used them was. There was then chat about the fact that it may not be considered to be cheating if, at the time the schemes were set up, Rangers believed there actions to be within the law. The argument was made that this is different from, say, doping in athletics where those involved are fully aware that they are operating outside the rules to improve their performance.

I think a more important point - and one that HMRC are allowed to take into account - is what was the ultimate purpose behind the scheme. If the ultimate purpose was essentially to avoid the payment of taxes it is not deemed to be a legitimate business transaction. In the eyes of HMRC ignorance is not a valid defence either. This principle was in place long before RFC used EBTs and professional advisers would be expected to have known this.

The appeal established that use of the EBTs by RFC gained them a sporting advantage which, by definition, penalises other competitors.

IF RFC engaged in transactions - the main purpose of which was to avoid paying tax - what would be their motivation for doing that? I can't see how it can be claimed that it was anything other than to gain an advantage over their competitors by facilitating the employment of better players than they would otherwise have been possible.

[Ozyhibby]

Not just Rangers fans. Doesn't fit the narrative of "The Clumpany" so they just disregard.

Of course. If you post this on Scottish Football Monitor etc they totally ignore. They are only interested in hammering Rangers or Sevco.
If we want this taken up it will have to be Rangers fans hoping that it saves them.


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[greenginger]

Of course. If you post this on Scottish Football Monitor etc they totally ignore. They are only interested in hammering Rangers or Sevco.
If we want this taken up it will have to be Rangers fans hoping that it saves them.


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Or feed the Sevco press the facts on Hearts tax cheating.

Gavin Barry in the Daily Record mentioned the yams tax bill but according to him it was just overspending and running out of money.

I'm sure they will start highlighting the Hearts tax business if we give them the info.

[JeMeSouviens]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/20105317

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/hearts/204009-hearts-settle-big-tax-case-with-hmrc-to-pay-15m-bill-over-three-years/

Not a single penny of this tax was paid.
HMRC ruled the scheme illegal just like they have done with Rangers use of EBT's.
Most Rangers fans are too stupid to do the research though.


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p in £ CVA must have paid a tiny proportion?

[Ozyhibby]

p in £ CVA must have paid a tiny proportion?

As will the liquidation of old Rangers.


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[greenginger]

p in £ CVA must have paid a tiny proportion?


Not a cent went to HMRC. Ukio Bankas as secured creditor got the lot.

[Glesgahibby]

BBC Bluenose correspondent Richard Wilson with the "we've been punished enough" line. Starts getting tasty quarter of an hour in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p037m4h7
Sporting integratey,cheating,unfair advantage,breaking the law and punished enough.
All of the above statements are clouding the real issue and creating debate that is not necessary.
1)players wages declared with the SFA were false.
2)these players(acording to SFA rules)then become ineligible.
3)SFA rules state,if a player is ineligible then the game played in is awarded to the opposing team 3-0.
As it stands at the moment,the courts have declared that EBT loans were earnings,so none of the above points I have made are indispute.
no investigations,no meetings and no voting.
apply the rules,end of!!!!

[greenginger]

Sporting integratey,cheating,unfair advantage,breaking the law and punished enough.
All of the above statements are clouding the real issue and creating debate that is not necessary.
1)players wages declared with the SFA were false.
2)these players(acording to SFA rules)then become ineligible.
3)SFA rules state,if a player is ineligible then the game played in is awarded to the opposing team 3-0.
As it stands at the moment,the courts have declared that EBT loans were earnings,so none of the above points I have made are indisputable.
no investigations,no meetings and no voting.
apply the rules,end of!!!!


Similarly with Rudi Skacel. His registered contract was for 190,000 Euro/year ( about £ 3000/week probably one of the lowest in the Yam squad )

His agent claimed his 10 % fee on wage of 290,000 Euro/year.

[jacomo]

I think these are the penalties accumulated due to the Old Huns' cheating:

- 10 pt penalty for entering admin
- £160K fines in total for how they ended up in admin
- 12 month registration ban
- £250K fine for EBT registration dodginess

Of those, the 160K and 12 month signing ban were taken on by the New Huns in exchange for being allowed to transfer the SFA membership of the Old Huns (the infamous 5 way agreement). Of course, the SFA then rolled over and bent their own rules by shifting the signing ban until after the transfer window. :rolleyes:

The SPL share of the Old Huns wasn't transferred (note, this was not a punishment) but the New Huns were fast tracked into the SFL.

The £250K fine is disputed by the New Huns (nowt to do with us, we're just the same club :rolleyes: ).

Thanks for summary. The Rangers will presumably argue that £250k fine covers everything related to EBTs.

The rest is all about the club going bust, and nothing to do with EBTs.

So, as they haven't paid the £250k fine, and it is now common sense that they gained an unfair sporting advantage through the EBTs, now it is time for a punishment to be enforced. The precedent had been set.

[lapsedhibee]

Sporting integratey,cheating,unfair advantage,breaking the law and punished enough.
All of the above statements are clouding the real issue and creating debate that is not necessary.
1)players wages declared with the SFA were false.
2)these players(acording to SFA rules)then become ineligible.
3)SFA rules state,if a player is ineligible then the game played in is awarded to the opposing team 3-0.
As it stands at the moment,the courts have declared that EBT loans were earnings,so none of the above points I have made are indisputable.
no investigations,no meetings and no voting.
apply the rules,end of!!!!

That's completely wrong.
All of the above points you have made are indisputable. :wink:

[Glesgahibby]

Similarly with Rudi Skacel. His registered contract was for 190,000 Euro/year ( about £ 3000/week probably one of the lowest in the Yam squad )

His agent claimed his 10 % fee on wage of 290,000 Euro/year.
Good point GG:aok:
the problem is,someone has to complain to the SFA(with written factual proof)sounds like a job for Sergey:greengrin
the Rangers case differs because the proof is highlited every day this debate continues.
As I have said before,the SFA has to protect itself against legal action from basically anyone who feels they were financially disadvantaged.

[Glesgahibby]

That's completely wrong.
All of the above points you have made are indisputable. :wink:
just noticed that:greengrin
cheers!!

[southsider]

So want punishment do people want our club to tell the SFA to impose on the rangers for "improper conduct" ? I would suggest void all titles/cups won and a 10 year European ban. Thoughts ?

[jacomo]

So want punishment do people want our club to tell the SFA to impose on the rangers for "improper conduct" ? I would suggest void all titles/cups won and a 10 year European ban. Thoughts ?

Sure. Plus a points deduction, say, 20 points. Just because.

EDIT: Seeing as The Rangers are refusing to countenance any stripping of their titles, how about a points deduction for every season they cheated through EBTs? This should be meaningful, so probably more than 20 points, this season and every season for the next decade, regardless of which division they are in?

[Deansy]

Sadly, imho, all this talk of the Hun being punished, titles\trophies stripped etc, etc is just that - talk !!, As we all KNOW - the GFA will NOT do anything !!. Like the last time, there was no appetite\bottle from them or the chairmen of the SPL clubs to properly punish the Hun UNTIL it was made clear to them by US - the fans - that if they didn't, the game was f××××d !!

What's needed now is a repeat, for all of the fans to get together once again, and demand that the Hun are properly punished for cheating !!. If we don't, then once again, the Hun walk away laughing !.

[Jack]

So want punishment do people want our club to tell the SFA to impose on the rangers for "improper conduct" ? I would suggest void all titles/cups won and a 10 year European ban. Thoughts ?

With regard to the league they should follow the precedent they set with Livingston with a fine and points deduction. They could go the whole hog and use the international precedents where ineligible players, as that is what the EBT players have become, are played the results are amended to a 3 nil defeat. They should also be fined the difference of what they received, in terms of prize money, and what they should have received with the revised league placing.

With regard to cup competitions they should follow the precedents set in numerous cases where the offending club has been thrown out. Again they should be fined all prize money received.

There should also be an additional fine, or percentage added to these fines, for punitive damages.

The players can keep their medals, the club would lose its honours.

A ban from future cups in Scotland and European competition should also be considered for a similar period to their cheating seems appropriate.

[steakbake]

Not seen anything that indicates the SFA are moving on this at all - which is unsurprising as the guy at the top is the same one who was in the room when the tax/sport cheating plan was put into place.

Ogilvie has to go.

Wonder what the HFC official position is on this?

Have to say that Clumpany was bang on: oh for a Turnbull Hutton character to step forward and represent the views publicly of the many fans who have seen the last 10+ years as a charade of a competition. Somehow, I feel the blazers will close ranks and the calls for action will be left for people on the internet, whose view of this will be written off as them having an agenda or simply that they're obsessed.

[PatHead]

With regard to the league they should follow the precedent they set with Livingston with a fine and points deduction. They could go the whole hog and use the international precedents where ineligible players, as that is what the EBT players have become, are played the results are amended to a 3 nil defeat. They should also be fined the difference of what they received, in terms of prize money, and what they should have received with the revised league placing.

With regard to cup competitions they should follow the precedents set in numerous cases where the offending club has been thrown out. Again they should be fined all prize money received.

There should also be an additional fine, or percentage added to these fines, for punitive damages.

The players can keep their medals, the club would lose its honours.

A ban from future cups in Scotland and European competition should also be considered for a similar period to their cheating seems appropriate.

Big difference was that Livingston brought their transgressions to the attention of the SPFL and were dealt with leniently because of this.

Shut them down for not paying footballing debts in the form of the fine as had been agreed. Sod this deduct points and fines malarkey.

Also don't see what The Rangers are getting upset about as it wasn't them - it was the old, deceased club that are affected.

[Ozyhibby]

Not seen anything that indicates the SFA are moving on this at all - which is unsurprising as the guy at the top is the same one who was in the room when the tax/sport cheating plan was put into place.

Ogilvie has to go.

Wonder what the HFC official position is on this?

Have to say that Clumpany was bang on: oh for a Turnbull Hutton character to step forward and represent the views publicly of the many fans who have seen the last 10+ years as a charade of a competition. Somehow, I feel the blazers will close ranks and the calls for action will be left for people on the internet, whose view of this will be written off as them having an agenda or simply that they're obsessed.

Ogilvie has gone.


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[MrSmith]

Ogilvie has gone.


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Yip as of the 9th June, replaced by Alan McRae of Cove Rangers. Our own RP reelected as Vice-President.

wonder why CO left so quietly??? Hmmm impending Sevco doom? I'll bet he knew what was coming and did one ............ >>>>>>>>>>>>>

[JeMeSouviens]

Not a cent went to HMRC. Ukio Bankas as secured creditor got the lot.

****, course they did. I've gone rusty on the details of Yam dodginess. :embarrass

[steakbake]

Yip as of the 9th June, replaced by Alan McRae of Cove Rangers. Our own RP reelected as Vice-President.

wonder why CO left so quietly??? Hmmm impending Sevco doom? I'll bet he knew what was coming and did one ............ >>>>>>>>>>>>>

He left very quietly! Had no idea.

Still wonder what Hibs' position is on the saga and what might happen once the SFA start their no doubt robust and forensic evaluation of the situation.

[Smartie]

I'm quite chilled out about the stripping of titles. I don't really see what is to be gained by going back in time and taking them away.

All of the titles gained during that period are tainted in my eyes, so every boast a Rangers fan makes, ever, about the numbers of titles they have won or how many stars they have on their shirts will forever be tainted.

It didn't need to be this way for them. They could have volunteered to hand back their dodgy titles. That would have left them with the sizeable number of trophies they had won previously and then all of the ones they will win in future completely unquestionable. And investigations could be made into the trophies won by other clubs that the whataboutery loving Rangers fans - correctly - point out should also be scrapped.

The past 16 years or so will go down as one of the most shameful in Scottish football history. We haven't qualified for a major international competition and a large number of our domestic trophies have been affected by financial doping whilst our limp authorities dithered about what to do about them.

I agree with aspects of the Rangers statement yesterday. The worst thing for Scottish football to do now would be to bicker for the next 5 years about what titles should be taken away, and we SHOULD all move on. But there was not a shred of remorse in that statement and for that reason we cannot move on. There is nothing remorseful or even remotely self-aware about a club 5 points clear at the top of the league and with 4x the wage budget of their nearest challengers that needs £2.5 million extra external funding to finish the season.

Rangers remain the biggest problem in Scottish football and probably always will be.

[Ozyhibby]

And Sevco remain skint. Still no sign of over investment. [emoji23]


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[JeMeSouviens]

Not seen anything that indicates the SFA are moving on this at all - which is unsurprising as the guy at the top is the same one who was in the room when the tax/sport cheating plan was put into place.

Ogilvie has to go.

Wonder what the HFC official position is on this?

Have to say that Clumpany was bang on: oh for a Turnbull Hutton character to step forward and represent the views publicly of the many fans who have seen the last 10+ years as a charade of a competition. Somehow, I feel the blazers will close ranks and the calls for action will be left for people on the internet, whose view of this will be written off as them having an agenda or simply that they're obsessed.

Listening to the rumours and reading between the lines of what happened last time this was visited, the SPL with Aberdeen, ourselves, Celtic and Dundee United to the fore, thought that getting the LNS commission set up would do the business and the Old Huns' honours won during the EBT era would be stripped. However, they didn't reckon with the wily ways of the SFA, including actual guilty Hun Ogilvie and arch-Hun appeaser Regan who effectively neutered the whole thing by severely limiting the terms of reference and providing an extremely pro-Hun interpretation of their rules and registration procedures to LNS. :rolleyes:

Basically the whole thing was a stitch up to ward off the Hun lynch mob. It seems that the main device they used to do the stitching, the perceived legality of EBTs, may also be the device that unpicks the whole thing in light of the new Court of Session judgement. :na na:

But we need the SPL clubs to have the balls to go for a rematch. That's going to be greatly helped if we can find a way to express our support for it publically. Any ideas, anyone?

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm quite chilled out about the stripping of titles. I don't really see what is to be gained by going back in time and taking them away.

All of the titles gained during that period are tainted in my eyes, so every boast a Rangers fan makes, ever, about the numbers of titles they have won or how many stars they have on their shirts will forever be tainted.

It didn't need to be this way for them. They could have volunteered to hand back their dodgy titles. That would have left them with the sizeable number of trophies they had won previously and then all of the ones they will win in future completely unquestionable. And investigations could be made into the trophies won by other clubs that the whataboutery loving Rangers fans - correctly - point out should also be scrapped.

The past 16 years or so will go down as one of the most shameful in Scottish football history. We haven't qualified for a major international competition and a large number of our domestic trophies have been affected by financial doping whilst our limp authorities dithered about what to do about them.

I agree with aspects of the Rangers statement yesterday. The worst thing for Scottish football to do now would be to bicker for the next 5 years about what titles should be taken away, and we SHOULD all move on. But there was not a shred of remorse in that statement and for that reason we cannot move on. There is nothing remorseful or even remotely self-aware about a club 5 points clear at the top of the league and with 4x the wage budget of their nearest challengers that needs £2.5 million extra external funding to finish the season.

Rangers remain the biggest problem in Scottish football an probably always will be.

Personally I couldn't care less whether they're remorseful, contrite, humble, angry, defiant or whatever. I just want the rules applied as if it was any other club. Doesn't seem too much to ask?

[greenginger]

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/13982710.Rangers_board_moves_to_curb_Mike_Ashley_s _say_in_club_affairs/


Rangers board proposing a motion to strip Ashley of his voting rights at their AGM.

Come on Mike, take them to court again, High court in London of course with plenty very expensive legal high rollers to pay.

[Smartie]

Personally I couldn't care less whether they're remorseful, contrite, humble, angry, defiant or whatever. I just want the rules applied as if it was any other club. Doesn't seem too much to ask?

So what are the rules on retrospectively removing titles for financial doping in Scottish football?

Rangers will probably be able to point at a flimsy SFA/SPL/SPFL rule book and claim - because of the flimsiness of these rules with some justification - that they "did nothing wrong" or "were punished enough". We can then spend the next 10 years paying lawyers to sort out in legal terms whether or not this is the case.

I'd prefer for us to get a watertight set of rules in place that ALL of the clubs understand, accept and respect without trying every trick in the book to get round them. And if there was evidence of contrition from Rangers then I'd be happy to work towards that. Instead they are their moronic, belligerent old selves and that will lead to constant aggro with Scottish football constantly arguing about past indiscretions instead of everyone working together towards a better future.

I just want a fair playing field where everyone knows the rules and the best team wins.

We need to move on - their attitude will stop us from doing so.

[JeMeSouviens]

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/13982710.Rangers_board_moves_to_curb_Mike_Ashley_s _say_in_club_affairs/


Rangers board proposing a motion to strip Ashley of his voting rights at their AGM.

Come on Mike, take them to court again, High court in London of course with plenty very expensive legal high rollers to pay.

Is this a deliberate New Hun strategy to get to admin but it be Ashley's "fault"?

[Spike Mandela]

So what are the rules on retrospectively removing titles for financial doping in Scottish football?

Rangers will probably be able to point at a flimsy SFA/SPL/SPFL rule book and claim - because of the flimsiness of these rules with some justification - that they "did nothing wrong" or "were punished enough". We can then spend the next 10 years paying lawyers to sort out in legal terms whether or not this is the case.

I'd prefer for us to get a watertight set of rules in place that ALL of the clubs understand, accept and respect without trying every trick in the book to get round them. And if there was evidence of contrition from Rangers then I'd be happy to work towards that. Instead they are their moronic, belligerent old selves and that will lead to constant aggro with Scottish football constantly arguing about past indiscretions instead of everyone working together towards a better future.

I just want a fair playing field where everyone knows the rules and the best team wins.

We need to move on - their attitude will stop us from doing so.


Why do the football authorities need rules on the misuse of tax schemes when the courts reach a studied and legal conlusion of guilt or otherwise?

As for retrospective sanction or punishment or in the likely (non) punishment of the SFA or SPFL there are always areas of discretion they could use in any circumstance if they so wished or when it suits them.

[grunt]

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/13982710.Rangers_board_moves_to_curb_Mike_Ashley_s _say_in_club_affairs/

Rangers board proposing a motion to strip Ashley of his voting rights at their AGM.
Come on Mike, take them to court again, High court in London of course with plenty very expensive legal high rollers to pay.
Old news.


Notice of Rangers AGM. According to Twitter, resolution 11 seeks to remove Ashley's voting rights.

https://t.co/hHCyQkbTNT (https://t.co/hHCyQkbTNT)

[greenginger]

The SFA/SPFL rules say all players earnings and financial information have to be on their playing contracts or they are not properly registered.

Sevco have argued the EBTs were not wages but loans and did not have to be on the playing contracts.

Three high court judges have now said the EBT payments were wages.

Sevco now say its time to move on, we've all suffered enough. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

So what are the rules on retrospectively removing titles for financial doping in Scottish football?

Rangers will probably be able to point at a flimsy SFA/SPL/SPFL rule book and claim - because of the flimsiness of these rules with some justification - that they "did nothing wrong" or "were punished enough". We can then spend the next 10 years paying lawyers to sort out in legal terms whether or not this is the case.

I'd prefer for us to get a watertight set of rules in place that ALL of the clubs understand, accept and respect without trying every trick in the book to get round them. And if there was evidence of contrition from Rangers then I'd be happy to work towards that. Instead they are their moronic, belligerent old selves and that will lead to constant aggro with Scottish football constantly arguing about past indiscretions instead of everyone working together towards a better future.

I just want a fair playing field where everyone knows the rules and the best team wins.

We need to move on - their attitude will stop us from doing so.

I take your point regarding the ambivalence of the rules but when wee clubs are thrown out of the cup for having a player's registration signed once rather than twice, it doesn't seem to be that big a stretch to assume that results should not be allowed to stand when a big club has been found guilty of actually wilfully breaking registration rules to secure an advantage.

It's practically impossible to retrospectively work out what would've happened had they been disqualified on day 1, but at the very least, those competitions they won while cheating should be expunged from the record books.

They might moan about it but if justice is seen to be done, we will all eventually move on.

[Glesgahibby]

So what are the rules on retrospectively removing titles for financial doping in Scottish football?

Rangers will probably be able to point at a flimsy SFA/SPL/SPFL rule book and claim - because of the flimsiness of these rules with some justification - that they "did nothing wrong" or "were punished enough". We can then spend the next 10 years paying lawyers to sort out in legal terms whether or not this is the case.

I'd prefer for us to get a watertight set of rules in place that ALL of the clubs understand, accept and respect without trying every trick in the book to get round them. And if there was evidence of contrition from Rangers then I'd be happy to work towards that. Instead they are their moronic, belligerent old selves and that will lead to constant aggro with Scottish football constantly arguing about past indiscretions instead of everyone working together towards a better future.

I just want a fair playing field where everyone knows the rules and the best team wins.

We need to move on - their attitude will stop us from doing so.
As I said earlier,players earnings registered with the sfa at the time are now confirmed to be false(according to the courts)
This means these players were in eligible!
everything else is void of the argument,it really is that simple!
No drama,no discussion and no debate.
Rules have been PROVEN! To be broken and there is no way out.
All games these players played in will now be awarded to the other team 3-0.

[Treadstone]

The bloke who writes the waitingfortax blog is on Sportsound tonight. Currently on Twitter he is a Hun and a Fenian.

[Smartie]

Why do the football authorities need rules on the misuse of tax schemes when the courts reach a studied and legal conlusion of guilt or otherwise?

As for retrospective sanction or punishment or in the likely (non) punishment of the SFA or SPFL there are always areas of discretion they could use in any circumstance if they so wished or when it suits them.

I think they need to have rules on the misuse of tax schemes because clubs misuse tax schemes. This gives some teams an unfair advantage and some a disadvantage.

They need to clarify what this actually means within Scottish football, such as "any competitions found to have been won whilst a club operated a scheme found to be unlawful will be deleted from the record/ awarded to 2nd place in that competition" or whatever they choose to do.


I hate areas of discretion on matters like these. It is the abuse of discretion that has allowed this situation to develop, what with the cosy relationships enjoyed between the SFA and Rangers. Discretion is great if you have people with a shred of integrity but we're relying on people like Campbell Ogilvie FFS.

[JeMeSouviens]

The bloke who writes the waitingfortax blog is on Sportsound tonight. Currently on Twitter he is a Hun and a Fenian.

Guy who makes living defending tax avoidance suggests there might be a defence against this tax avoidance. Shockerooni!

[grunt]

The bloke who writes the waitingfortax blog is on Sportsound tonight. Currently on Twitter he is a Hun and a Fenian.
Oh good. That's all we need. Another Rangers apologist, only this time one who can string two words together and is completely aware of his own star qualities. "I’m a Queen’s Counsel specialising in the field of tax. Although that fact doesn’t make me right, it does make my view worth listening to."

[JeMeSouviens]

Oh good. That's all we need. Another Rangers apologist, only this time one who can string two words together and is completely aware of his own star qualities. "I’m a Queen’s Counsel specialising in the field of tax. Although that fact doesn’t make me right, it does make my view worth listening to."

It's quite unbelievable how desperate the Beeb's sports dept are to whitewash the Huns' crimes. I get why the tabloids would do it given they are dependent on the Hun pound but a public broadcaster? Wtf?

[Glesgahibby]

The SFA/SPFL rules say all players earnings and financial information have to be on their playing contracts or they are not properly registered.

Sevco have argued the EBTs were not wages but loans and did not have to be on the playing contracts.

Three high court judges have now said the EBT payments were wages.

Sevco now say its time to move on, we've all suffered enough. :greengrin
I think the penny has dropped for sevco:agree:
The facts are there now in black and white.
They will try and keep the key/main/real issue under the radar.
the players earned more than was registered,that is all that matters.

[portycabbage]

As the owner of a member of the SPFL and SFA, yep.

Pretty sure Sevco are the member and RIFC are the "owner"-

"Sevco Scotland Ltd was formed on 29 March 2012[30] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.#cite_note-30) as a means for Charles Green (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Green_%28businessman%29) to acquire the assets of Rangers FC. Sevco Scotland Ltd (subsequently renamed The Rangers Football Club Ltd) was formed to ensure that if the formation of a new company was required in the event of a CVA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trading_while_insolvent_%28UK%29#Company_voluntary _arrangement) being rejected, then the Club's corporate entity would be a Scottish registered company as it has always been. When the CVA failed the assets of The Rangers Football Club Plc (subsequently renamed RFC 2012 plc) were then sold for £5.5 million.[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.#cite_note-31)[32] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.#cite_note-32)[33] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.#cite_note-33)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.

[ekhibee]

Roger Mitchell is on sportsound and he's a jobby.

[happiehibbie]

Or is he saying what the SFA SPL etc etc are thinking


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[Treadstone]

Roger Mitchell is on sportsound and he's a jobby.

The former chief executive of the SPL "cheating happens all over the world, move on". No wonder Scottish football is in dire straits.

[magpie1892]

Not one peep of any of this on Reporting Scotland tonight.

Sickening.

[Glesgahibby]

The former chief executive of the SPL "cheating happens all over the world, move on". No wonder Scottish football is in dire straits.
Guy txt the show stating he has paid money to watch matches that were rigged.
his reply was "there's all sorts happening all over the world""look what's happening in Russia":confused:
As for x players managers saying"games were won on the park fair and square"what about the punter who paid to see this,who without,there careers would never have happened?

[ekhibee]

The former chief executive of the SPL "cheating happens all over the world, move on". No wonder Scottish football is in dire straits.
Good point. He was a useless, ineffective little numpty when he was chief executive, and that says a lot about what I think of his opinions on the state of Scottish football.

[Kato]

The former chief executive of the SPL "cheating happens all over the world, move on". No wonder Scottish football is in dire straits.

So he admits it was cheating at least.

[CropleyWasGod]

Pretty sure Sevco are the member and RIFC are the "owner"-

"Sevco Scotland Ltd was formed on 29 March 2012[30] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.#cite_note-30) as a means for Charles Green (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Green_%28businessman%29) to acquire the assets of Rangers FC. Sevco Scotland Ltd (subsequently renamed The Rangers Football Club Ltd) was formed to ensure that if the formation of a new company was required in the event of a CVA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trading_while_insolvent_%28UK%29#Company_voluntary _arrangement) being rejected, then the Club's corporate entity would be a Scottish registered company as it has always been. When the CVA failed the assets of The Rangers Football Club Plc (subsequently renamed RFC 2012 plc) were then sold for £5.5 million.[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.#cite_note-31)[32] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.#cite_note-32)[33] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.#cite_note-33)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.
Rangers are the member club. Their owner is TRFC Ltd.

Ps that Wikipedia article is written by someone with an agenda [emoji6]

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[Bostonhibby]

Good point. He was a useless, ineffective little numpty when he was chief executive, and that says a lot about what I think of his opinions on the state of Scottish football.


So he admits it was cheating at least.

So, everybody cheat, the world will be a better place for the best cheats at least. Way beyond tiny Scottish football but when it comes to defending the indefensible we definitely punch above our weight, makes you wonder about how many SFA snouts were in the FIF/EUFA trough that we are yet to hear about. Are we seeing defences being got in early?

[hibernia_inn]

The former chief executive of the SPL "cheating happens all over the world, move on". No wonder Scottish football is in dire straits.

David Farrell ‏@davidfarrellfaz 8m8 minutes ago

Roger Mitchell, the man who knocked back £40m from Sky in favour of a deal with Setanta and SPL TV!

[Bostonhibby]

David Farrell ‏@davidfarrellfaz 8m8 minutes ago

Roger Mitchell, the man who knocked back £40m from Sky in favour of a deal with Setanta and SPL TV!

Is this the guy who cornered the market in Sinclair C5's with 8 track cassette players pre installed but was only willing to sell them to households who could prove they had Betamax Video players installed in every room?

[ehf]

So, everybody cheat, the world will be a better place for the best cheats at least. Way beyond tiny Scottish football but when it comes to defending the indefensible we definitely punch above our weight, makes you wonder about how many SFA snouts were in the FIF/EUFA trough that we are yet to hear about. Are we seeing defences being got in early?

:agree: there are close parallels here with the Russian athletics doping scandal, which (amongst other things) has rendered the London 2012 Olympics a hollow mockery.

On any rational analysis, the cheating Russian athletes should be stripped of their medals and Russia should be banned from Rio 2016. But it won't happen because there are too many vested interests at stake. Even Lord Coe is equivocating.

The reality is that integrity no longer counts for anything in top-level sport.

[Bostonhibby]

:agree: there are close parallels here with the Russian athletics doping scandal, which (amongst other things) has rendered the London 2012 Olympics a hollow mockery.

On any rational analysis, the cheating Russian athletes should be stripped of their medals and Russia should be banned from Rio 2016. But it won't happen because there are too many vested interests at stake. Even Lord Coe is equivocating.

The reality is that integrity no longer counts for anything in top-level sport.

:agree: It's not as if Lord Coe, and the companies associated with him and the Olympic venture have anything to hide?:greengrin

[greenginger]

JohnJames blogging again.


https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/


Gives a pretty comprehensive description of how Rangers player's registration have been compromised by the omission of EBT details and why the SFA should find them improperly registered.

Exactly the same for the Yam Skacel.

[portycabbage]

Rangers are the member club. Their owner is TRFC.

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I was about to reply with this before you changed the last bit from RIFC to TRFC!:greengrin-

"In December 2012, a company called Rangers International Plc was formed and listed on the London stock exchange and became the holding company for the The Rangers Football Club Ltd which, in turn, owns the football club."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.

So the club is the member, who is in turn owned by The Rangers FC, which is in turn owned by RIFC, which is owned by various shareholders and holding companies. Although I'm now confused as to what shares in a football club are, given there might be 2 or 3 holding companies in between! There also seems to be an extra layer of holding company post liquidation - "oldco" then v RIFC/TRFC now.

I know this was mentioned recently, but wasn't it "oldco rangers" who had the (non-transferable) membership, which was why the vote on whether to allow them to join the league happened? If the club was continuous and is the member, then how did it need to re-apply?

[Dan Sarf]

:agree: It's not as if Lord Coe, and the companies associated with him and the Olympic venture have anything to hide?:greengrin

Good point *cough cough*

[CropleyWasGod]

I was about to reply with this before you changed the last bit from RIFC to TRFC!:greengrin-

"In December 2012, a company called Rangers International Plc was formed and listed on the London stock exchange and became the holding company for the The Rangers Football Club Ltd which, in turn, owns the football club."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.

So the club is the member, who is in turn owned by The Rangers FC, which is in turn owned by RIFC, which is owned by various shareholders and holding companies. Although I'm now confused as to what shares in a football club are, given there might be 2 or 3 holding companies in between! There also seems to be an extra layer of holding company post liquidation - "oldco" then v RIFC/TRFC now.

I know this was mentioned recently, but wasn't it "oldco rangers" who had the (non-transferable) membership, which was why the vote on whether to allow them to join the league happened? If the club was continuous and is the member, then how did it need to re-apply?
Oldco had the share in the SPL. The SPL had shares rather than membership.

When Oldco 's assets were sold to Sevco, one of those assets was that share. So Sevco had a vote on whether Rangers, the club, were to be allowed to continue in the SPL. They lost the vote, and their share was transferred to Dundee.








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[greenginger]

And Sevco remain skint. Still no sign of over investment. [emoji23]


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And, looking at the fixtures they don't have a home game before their November wages day.

[portycabbage]

Oldco had the share in the SPL. The SPL had shares rather than membership.

When Oldco 's assets were sold to Sevco, one of those assets was that share. So Sevco had a vote on whether Rangers, the club, were to be allowed to continue in the SPL. They lost the vote, and their share was transferred to Dundee.








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But the vote was because of the application to transfer membership of the spl from oldco to sevco, rather than for "the club" to have continuous membership.

"registrations with the Scottish FA and SPL were terminated"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18707522

"SPL chairmen met at Hampden to vote on the new club's application to replace the old Rangers in the top flight."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18703183

"An application to transfer the Scottish Premier League membership from the 'oldco' to the 'newco' was rejected on a 10–1 vote"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.#Liquidation_and_current_ ownership

[Ozyhibby]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/10/2c514ef9b46a2e64f9a0dc162dd364c0.jpg



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[Ozyhibby]

Now every club in Scotland is going to have to pay for the SFA to defend Sevco against Mike Ashley's very expensive lawyers.


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[CropleyWasGod]

But the vote was because of the application to transfer membership of the spl from oldco to sevco, rather than for "the club" to have continuous membership.

"registrations with the Scottish FA and SPL were terminated"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18707522

"SPL chairmen met at Hampden to vote on the new club's application to replace the old Rangers in the top flight."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18703183

"An application to transfer the Scottish Premier League membership from the 'oldco' to the 'newco' was rejected on a 10–1 vote"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ownership_of_Rangers_F.C.#Liquidation_and_current_ ownership

They still legally owned a share in the company known as the SPL. As a result of that, they had a right to a vote on the membership issue. It was as a result of that vote that the share was transferred to Dundee.

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[Ozyhibby]

I cut and pasted this from a Celtic website as it provides a handy timeline of court dates for the next month. I think Scotland is going to need more judges at this rate.
------
Sports Direct v the SFA is just the latest event that seems certain to send Sevco into administration with turkeys more likely to celebrate Boxing Day in good health. December 12th.

Tomorrow Charles Green will be at the Court of Session to get the club to pay his fees for the Ibrox Fraud Case relating to the £5.5m transfer of assets in 2012.

On November 27 the company will attempt to stage an AGM with one of the proposals being to deny voting rights to anyone (Mr Ashley) with a stake in another football club.

December 2 is the final date for BDO to appeal against the verdict in the Big Tax Case, Sevco issued a statement on Monday asking everyone to move on.

On December 9 Mr Ashley will attempt to get Mr King, who was described as a glib and shameless liar by a South African judge, jailed for breaching a court order preventing him from discussing the deal between Sevco and Sports Direct.
---------


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[CropleyWasGod]

I cut and pasted this from a Celtic website as it provides a handy timeline of court dates for the next month. I think Scotland is going to need more judges at this rate.
------
Sports Direct v the SFA is just the latest event that seems certain to send Sevco into administration with turkeys more likely to celebrate Boxing Day in good health. December 12th.

Tomorrow Charles Green will be at the Court of Session to get the club to pay his fees for the Ibrox Fraud Case relating to the £5.5m transfer of assets in 2012.

On November 27 the company will attempt to stage an AGM with one of the proposals being to deny voting rights to anyone (Mr Ashley) with a stake in another football club.

December 2 is the final date for BDO to appeal against the verdict in the Big Tax Case, Sevco issued a statement on Monday asking everyone to move on.

On December 9 Mr Ashley will attempt to get Mr King, who was described as a glib and shameless liar by a South African judge, jailed for breaching a court order preventing him from discussing the deal between Sevco and Sports Direct.
---------


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Thanks Ozy.

As the keeper of the diary, it's your job to keep us reminded on a daily basis. Court reports would also be handy. Expenses will not be paid.

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[JeMeSouviens]

Oldco had the share in the SPL. The SPL had shares rather than membership.

When Oldco 's assets were sold to Sevco, one of those assets was that share. So Sevco had a vote on whether Rangers, the club, were to be allowed to continue in the SPL. They lost the vote, and their share was transferred to Dundee.








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No, that's not right. The original Rangers represented by Duff & Duffer got to vote. Sevco never got their hands on the SPL share.

They (Sevco) also got a temporary membership of the SFA before the original Rangers membership was transferred to them. If it were one club, how could it have 2 simultaneous memberships?

[Ozyhibby]

Thanks Ozy.

As the keeper of the diary, it's your job to keep us reminded on a daily basis. Court reports would also be handy. Expenses will not be paid.

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Nothing shall be missed, I have psycho Celtic fans reporting to me on every aspect of this case. [emoji23]


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[ACLeith]

Thanks Ozy.

As the keeper of the diary, it's your job to keep us reminded on a daily basis. Court reports would also be handy. Expenses will not be paid.

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And Ozy, don't even think of setting up an EBT :cb

[Ozyhibby]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/mike-ashley-challenges-sfa-over-dave-king-ruling-reports-1-3944848

For those that won't read the Sun.
I really hope the SFA have a way of passing the cost of this onto Sevco otherwise it's going to cost Hibs money we can little afford right now.


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[MrSmith]

Pretty clear now the term "sporting integrity" does not describe Scottish football at this time, if it ever did? 😕

Need a new broom!

[CropleyWasGod]

No, that's not right. The original Rangers represented by Duff & Duffer got to vote. Sevco never got their hands on the SPL share.

They (Sevco) also got a temporary membership of the SFA before the original Rangers membership was transferred to them. If it were one club, how could it have 2 simultaneous memberships?

If the vote was after liquidation, it couldn't have been D&D. They were out of office by then. The only scenario I could see that happening would be if Sevco had authorised them to appear on their behalf. Thinking aloud, that may be part of the conspiracy case.

If the vote was pre-liquidation, it would have been them.

The share was part of the asset sale. Somewhere online, there will be the relevant document. ScotsLawThoughts say this:-

He has paid a total of £5.5 million. Therefore he has acquired everything else for £750,000:-

The Player Contracts – the contracts of employment of those employees of the Company who are professional football players registered with the SFA;

The SFA Membership;

The Company‘s share in the SPL;

The Goodwill and intellectual property rights – the goodwill relating to the business of a professional football club carried on by the Company and the exclusive right to use the name “The Rangers Football Club”;

Stock, plant and equipment and cash at bank;

Amounts owed to the Company (other than the Player Transfer Fees).

[hibs0666]

If the vote was after liquidation, it couldn't have been D&D. They were out of office by then. The only scenario I could see that happening would be if Sevco had authorised them to appear on their behalf. Thinking aloud, that may be part of the conspiracy case.

If the vote was pre-liquidation, it would have been them.

The share was part of the asset sale. Somewhere online, there will be the relevant document. ScotsLawThoughts say this:-

He has paid a total of £5.5 million. Therefore he has acquired everything else for £750,000:-

The Player Contracts – the contracts of employment of those employees of the Company who are professional football players registered with the SFA;

The SFA Membership;

The Company‘s share in the SPL;

The Goodwill and intellectual property rights – the goodwill relating to the business of a professional football club carried on by the Company and the exclusive right to use the name “The Rangers Football Club”;

Stock, plant and equipment and cash at bank;

Amounts owed to the Company (other than the Player Transfer Fees).

Don't forget that Sevco also bought the 'History'.

[Mikey09]

Now every club in Scotland is going to have to pay for the SFA to defend Sevco against Mike Ashley's very expensive lawyers.


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The SFA are run by a bunch of fan dans and if Ashley goes through with this then I hope they are made a complete tit of in court. Passing King as fit and proper was the biggest farce of there's to date!

[JeMeSouviens]

If the vote was after liquidation, it couldn't have been D&D. They were out of office by then. The only scenario I could see that happening would be if Sevco had authorised them to appear on their behalf. Thinking aloud, that may be part of the conspiracy case.

If the vote was pre-liquidation, it would have been them.

The share was part of the asset sale. Somewhere online, there will be the relevant document. ScotsLawThoughts say this:-

He has paid a total of £5.5 million. Therefore he has acquired everything else for £750,000:-

The Player Contracts – the contracts of employment of those employees of the Company who are professional football players registered with the SFA;

The SFA Membership;

The Company‘s share in the SPL;

The Goodwill and intellectual property rights – the goodwill relating to the business of a professional football club carried on by the Company and the exclusive right to use the name “The Rangers Football Club”;

Stock, plant and equipment and cash at bank;

Amounts owed to the Company (other than the Player Transfer Fees).

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/106806-rangers-newco-vote-the-spl-powerbrokers-in-their-own-words/



The 12 Scottish Premier League member clubs will meet on July 4 to decide whether to admit a new company to the league.

The newco, currently known as Sevco 5088 but which plans to trade as The Rangers Football Club, will seek to transfer the share of Rangers FC to itself in order to compete in the SPL next season.

The Rangers Football Club PLC, which remains in administration ahead of a liquidation process while the newco is set up by businessman Charles Green, will get a vote through its existing share. This will be cast by the administrators, Duff and Phelps.

[Jim44]

The recent statement by Sevco says that a line should now be drawn under the saga and that all clubs should bond together in a concerted attempt to further the interests of Scottish football. How do they reconcile this with their supporters' open declaration of war against every club in Scotland which stood up against them over the past few years? Didn't they openly vow to destroy Scottish football on their return to the top flight?

[CropleyWasGod]

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/rangers/106806-rangers-newco-vote-the-spl-powerbrokers-in-their-own-words/

So, according to that, the vote was whilst it was in administration. If that's the case, D&D were entitled to vote on the basis that they held the share (not the "membership") in the SPL.

The share allowed them to vote on membership. The 2 are different things.

[Weststandwanab]

No, that's not right. The original Rangers represented by Duff & Duffer got to vote. Sevco never got their hands on the SPL share.

They (Sevco) also got a temporary membership of the SFA before the original Rangers membership was transferred to them. If it were one club, how could it have 2 simultaneous memberships?

That is what a lot of people, and all Sevconians, forget !


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/mike-ashley-challenges-sfa-over-dave-king-ruling-reports-1-3944848

For those that won't read the Sun.
I really hope the SFA have a way of passing the cost of this onto Sevco otherwise it's going to cost Hibs money we can little afford right now.


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Or the SFA could chose no to defend the action.

Or wait until Admin2 happens - Green in Court tomorrow !

[hibs0666]

The recent statement by Sevco says that a line should now be drawn under the saga and that all clubs should bond together in a concerted attempt to further the interests of Scottish football. How do they reconcile this with their supporters' open declaration of war against every club in Scotland which stood up against them over the past few years? Didn't they openly vow to destroy Scottish football on their return to the top flight?

There is an important point in here that we should not overlook - Scottish football is a basket case and is probably only a couple of runds up from the Maidstone United's of this world.

What proportion of effort do we want to spend kicking **** out of one another - and making the situation even worse - versus working together to try and get this shambles of a sport on a decent footing?

Right now it looks like 100% on the former and 0% on the latter.

[Jim44]

There is an important point in here that we should not overlook - Scottish football is a basket case and is probably only a couple of runds up from the Maidstone United's of this world.

What proportion of effort do we want to spend kicking **** out of one another - and making the situation even worse - versus working together to try and get this shambles of a sport on a decent footing?

Right now it looks like 100% on the former and 0% on the latter.

Would that be the decent footing of a return to Old Firm monopoly in a set up they have no desire to be in and would drop like a hot potato if the English Leagues were stupid enough to adopt them?

[JeMeSouviens]

So, according to that, the vote was whilst it was in administration. If that's the case, D&D were entitled to vote on the basis that they held the share (not the "membership") in the SPL.

The share allowed them to vote on membership. The 2 are different things.

Above I was referring to SFA membership, not the SPL share. For a very brief period, Sevco were given a temporary membership of the SFA while the old Rangers was still a member.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9432583/Rangers-in-crisis-Sevco-given-given-conditional-membership-of-SFA-as-stand-off-continues.html

[hibs0666]

Would that be the decent footing of a return to Old Firm monopoly in a set up they have no desire to be in and would drop like a hot potato if the English Leagues were stupid enough to adopt them?

Fair point, and that can become part of the dialogue for improving the Scottish game. It ain't going to get addressed if we continue on this path into the abyss.

[GreenOnions]

I think the point re the eligibility of players who received EBT payments is a strong one and does imply IMHO that all games in which they were involved should be retrospectively marked as a 3-0 defeat. I don't think cups won during this period by RFC should be awarded to other teams though - they would just have to be marked as having no winner. It's impossible to say whether or not the losing finalists would have won the cup instead of Rangers because a team RFC knocked out in an earlier round whilst RFC fielded an ineligible player could have gone on to win the cup if a 3-0 win against RFC is assumed. League championships are a different matter though as all results involving RFC fielding ineligible players could be amended and the overall result calculated.

Another main point the authorities need to take into account is that of precedent - both in the sense of taking into account historic examples of action taken where ineligible players have been fielded and of how any action they take now will set a precedent for the future should it be confirmed that players were ineligible.

[CropleyWasGod]

Above I was referring to SFA membership, not the SPL share. For a very brief period, Sevco were given a temporary membership of the SFA while the old Rangers was still a member.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9432583/Rangers-in-crisis-Sevco-given-given-conditional-membership-of-SFA-as-stand-off-continues.html

Okay, I get you. So many memberships, so many shares, so many Rangers.

The SPL stuff I can follow, and understand the process. The SFA stuff, though, is a dark place.... which would be so much lighter if the 5 Way Agreement was allowed out into the public domain.

[JeMeSouviens]

There is an important point in here that we should not overlook - Scottish football is a basket case and is probably only a couple of runds up from the Maidstone United's of this world.

What proportion of effort do we want to spend kicking **** out of one another - and making the situation even worse - versus working together to try and get this shambles of a sport on a decent footing?

Right now it looks like 100% on the former and 0% on the latter.

If the customer base believes the game is rigged, then there can be no decent footing. Bending over to appease the Huns destroys everyone else's confidence that there is a sport in there somewhere worth the bother of turning up. Better to clean up the Augean stables now, void all the competitions the Huns cheated in and then we can move on.

[HFC 0-7]

I think the point re the eligibility of players who received EBT payments is a strong one and does imply IMHO that all games in which they were involved should be retrospectively marked as a 3-0 defeat. I don't think cups won during this period by RFC should be awarded to other teams though - they would just have to be marked as having no winner. It's impossible to say whether or not the losing finalists would have won the cup instead of Rangers because a team RFC knocked out in an earlier round whilst RFC fielded an ineligible player could have gone on to win the cup if a 3-0 win against RFC is assumed. League championships are a different matter though as all results involving RFC fielding ineligible players could be amended and the overall result calculated.

Another main point the authorities need to take into account is that of precedent - both in the sense of taking into account historic examples of action taken where ineligible players have been fielded and of how any action they take now will set a precedent for the future should it be confirmed that players were ineligible.

Re the league championships, that would only work for the first season they used ebt's as all subsequent seasons they wouldn't have been in the top flight, they would have been relegated with 0 points!

[hibs0666]

If the customer base believes the game is rigged, then there can be no decent footing. Bending over to appease the Huns destroys everyone else's confidence that there is a sport in there somewhere worth the bother of turning up. Better to clean up the Augean stables now, void all the competitions the Huns cheated in and then we can move on.

It's not bending over to appease anyone, it has to be about getting all clubs to recognise their responsibilities to the wider game and starting to act appropriately. I think we have to be clear - we do not have a game worth bothering to turn up to watch as it stands just now. How is this historical discussion going to do anything to create a better future for the game?

[GreenOnions]

Re the league championships, that would only work for the first season they used ebt's as all subsequent seasons they wouldn't have been in the top flight, they would have been relegated with 0 points!

You make a good point sir (at least if we assume that ineligible players were fielded in sufficient games to imply RFC had fewer points than any other team) It's agreed though I think that, were 3-0 defeats to be awarded retrospectively for all games where ineligible players were fielded, we cannot just award cups (or probably championships either) to the team that finished second?

I think the precedent thing is quite important though. If it's confirmed at some point that EBT recipients were ineligible then the authorities will need to be aware that any action they take (or don't take) now will affect any action they can take in the future.

[MrSmith]

We need a complete reboot of our game! Until every part of the SFA/SPFL become transparent and work for the fans, not for self nor the old firm!I think we should start a petition for no confidence in the SFA/SPFL as the line needs to be drawn and all who are involved in this shocking corruption be dealt with appropriately, including those who have moved on ....

[Just Alf]

You make a good point sir (at least if we assume that ineligible players were fielded in sufficient games to imply RFC had fewer points than any other team) It's agreed though I think that, were 3-0 defeats to be awarded retrospectively for all games where ineligible players were fielded, we cannot just award cups (or probably championships either) to the team that finished second?

I think the precedent thing is quite important though. If it's confirmed at some point that EBT recipients were ineligible then the authorities will need to be aware that any action they take (or don't take) now will affect any action they can take in the future.

I keep thinking about the Spartans situation... on one of the form pages, the laddie signed in one box and missed the other at the bottom, as a result he was deemed ineligible and they were stripped of their win and effectively chucked out the competition that year..... now...... how does the EBT side letters compare to that?... in that situation they (Rangers) were paying players more than they had told the footballing authorities, thereby clearly breaking the rules.

That's purely the "Sporting" rules, the Tax stuff is on top of that.

For me, I think the titles are tainted and should be deleted, not reassigned etc, then we can all move on. :agree:

As an aside, my Dad is a Hun and he was spouting last night that because it looks like the titles wont be taken off them it proves the sporting side wasn't impacted so they won them fair and square and are still record holders in number of titles won :rolleyes:

[Hibee87]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/mike-ashley-challenges-sfa-over-dave-king-ruling-reports-1-3944848

For those that won't read the Sun.
I really hope the SFA have a way of passing the cost of this onto Sevco otherwise it's going to cost Hibs money we can little afford right now.


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I dont understand, how will any of this cost Hibs money? :confused:

[Ozyhibby]

I dont understand, how will any of this cost Hibs money? :confused:

Because the SFA is a membership organisation and any money they spend defending Sevco against Ashley will need to be paid for by the member clubs.


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[Hibee87]

Because the SFA is a membership organisation and any money they spend defending Sevco against Ashley will need to be paid for by the member clubs.


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And how much do you recon this would cost, im more thinking of the lower league teams. even a 50k contribution could put some teams in serious danger surley?

[PatHead]

Because the SFA is a membership organisation and any money they spend defending Sevco against Ashley will need to be paid for by the member clubs.


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They won't be defending The Rangers though. It is the SFA who have found them fit and proper so it will be the SFA in court.

[JeMeSouviens]

Because the SFA is a membership organisation and any money they spend defending Sevco against Ashley will need to be paid for by the member clubs.


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They also get revenue from the Scottish Cup and the national team. More likely it would be youth football etc that would lose money than the professional clubs.

[StevieC]

Because the SFA is a membership organisation and any money they spend defending Sevco against Ashley will need to be paid for by the member clubs.

I don't think they can invoice the member clubs for something they've done wrong. It's more likely to affect the budget used for the blazers to lap it up in hospitality at the cup finals and the Scotland games.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's not bending over to appease anyone, it has to be about getting all clubs to recognise their responsibilities to the wider game and starting to act appropriately. I think we have to be clear - we do not have a game worth bothering to turn up to watch as it stands just now. How is this historical discussion going to do anything to create a better future for the game?

Self evident isn't it? The same reason the Tour de France was voided for the Lance Armstrong years. Pro cycling is interesting in that the authorities spent years from Festina onwards trying to ignore blatant cheating and sweep as much as possible under the carpet in order not to harm commercial interests. Look where that got them.

[JeMeSouviens]

I keep thinking about the Spartans situation... on one of the form pages, the laddie signed in one box and missed the other at the bottom, as a result he was deemed ineligible and they were stripped of their win and effectively chucked out the competition that year..... now...... how does the EBT side letters compare to that?... in that situation they (Rangers) were paying players more than they had told the footballing authorities, thereby clearly breaking the rules.

That's purely the "Sporting" rules, the Tax stuff is on top of that.

For me, I think the titles are tainted and should be deleted, not reassigned etc, then we can all move on. :agree:

As an aside, my Dad is a Hun and he was spouting last night that because it looks like the titles wont be taken off them it proves the sporting side wasn't impacted so they won them fair and square and are still record holders in number of titles won :rolleyes:

:agree: Exactly how I feel.

[hibs0666]

Self evident isn't it? The same reason the Tour de France was voided for the Lance Armstrong years. Pro cycling is interesting in that the authorities spent years from Festina onwards trying to ignore blatant cheating and sweep as much as possible under the carpet in order not to harm commercial interests. Look where that got them.

This is not about commercial interests though. Our clubs efforts in Europe are pathetic. Interest in our game beyond Scotland is negligible. Our national team continues to bump along the bottom.

I despise the huns as much as anyone but it will be no cause for celebration to see the huns suffer more if our game turns semi professional due to neglect of the bigger picture.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think they can invoice the member clubs for something they've done wrong. It's more likely to affect the budget used for the blazers to lap it up in hospitality at the cup finals and the Scotland games.

Haha, that's the one budget that would remain untouched.
The money generated by the Scottish cup and the Scotland team should be distributed for the good of the game, not spent on lawyers defending the shocking decision to pass King fit and proper. Should the SFA lose this case, Ashley will be entitled to significant compensation. The value of his shareholding has been almost wiped out by the delisting and the the value of his commercial deals have been totally undermined by King. If Sevco go bust, you can multiply those losses.
Who would bet on the SFA being successful in defending their decision to pass King fit and proper?
This could cost the Scottish game a lot of money.


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[brog]

And, looking at the fixtures they don't have a home game before their November wages day.

John James seems to suggest, bold below, that Sevco have managed to get the £2.5 m needed to see them through to next year. Meanwhile in today's DR, half loaf states he'll have no problem asking for £1m to buy a player! I'm sure he'll have no problem asking!! Mind you he also says they've managed to get every player they went after, looks like Scotty's been airbrushed to history!

If King’s stupidity continues unchecked, his costs of litigation, when added to those of Green, could exceed the £2.5m in emergency funding that has been raised by Mr Taylor and Mr Letham.

[CropleyWasGod]

Haha, that's the one budget that would remain untouched.
The money generated by the Scottish cup and the Scotland team should be distributed for the good of the game, not spent on lawyers defending the shocking decision to pass King fit and proper. Should the SFA lose this case, Ashley will be entitled to significant compensation. The value of his shareholding has been almost wiped out by the delisting and the the value of his commercial deals have been totally undermined by King. If Sevco go bust, you can multiply those losses.
Who would bet on the SFA being successful in defending their decision to pass King fit and proper?
This could cost the Scottish game a lot of money.


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Chances are that they have insurance in place to limit any losses.

[Ozyhibby]

This is not about commercial interests though. Our clubs efforts in Europe are pathetic. Interest in our game beyond Scotland is negligible. Our national team continues to bump along the bottom.

I despise the huns as much as anyone but it will be no cause for celebration to see the huns suffer more whilst our game turns semi professional due to neglect of the bigger picture.

The completion has to be fair before anyone can rebuild it. If we are to have reconciliation then there needs to be truth first.
There has been collusion between Rangers (old and new) and the SFA to rig the game and we need to get to the bottom of it first before we can start to think about rebuilding it.
Sticking our head in the sand kidding on its not happening is what has laid our game so low in the first place.


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[Jim44]

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/mike-ashley-challenges-sfa-over-dave-king-ruling-reports-1-3944848

For those that won't read the Sun.
I really hope the SFA have a way of passing the cost of this onto Sevco otherwise it's going to cost Hibs money we can little afford right now.


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I don't see how the SFA can pass on costs to Sevco. They themselves made the judgement, Ashley is challenging their decision, so they either defend the judgement or capitulate. Presumably, either action will cost money. If King is dethroned, some may say it's money well spent. :

[Ozyhibby]

I don't see how the SFA can pass on costs to Sevco. They themselves made the judgement, Ashley is challenging their decision, so they either defend the judgement or capitulate. Presumably, either action will cost money. If King is dethroned, some may say it's money well spent. :hibees

Neither can I, it was just a forlorn hope.



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[Ozyhibby]

Chances are that they have insurance in place to limit any losses.

Let's hope so.


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[Ozyhibby]

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/whitewashing-in-the-age-of-judicial-reviews-fans-united-were-gonna-do-it-anyway/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


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[Kato]

http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/whitewashing-in-the-age-of-judicial-reviews-fans-united-were-gonna-do-it-anyway/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


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Groups of Celtic and Hearts fans are becoming unnervingly cooperative,

Someone needs to point out they are among the whitewashers.

[hibs0666]

The completion has to be fair before anyone can rebuild it. If we are to have reconciliation then there needs to be truth first.
There has been collusion between Rangers (old and new) and the SFA to rig the game and we need to get to the bottom of it first before we can start to think about rebuilding it.
Sticking our head in the sand kidding on its not happening is what has laid our game so low in the first place.


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Very lofty statements, but let's get real here. What people want to see is the huns lose titles. You'll need to explain to me how that is going to improve the game going forward in any shape or form. All I can see happening is we'll end up spending the next few years fiddling whilst Rome burns.

[Springbank]

John James seems to suggest, bold below, that Sevco have managed to get the £2.5 m needed to see them through to next year. Meanwhile in today's DR, half loaf states he'll have no problem asking for £1m to buy a player! I'm sure he'll have no problem asking!! Mind you he also says they've managed to get every player they went after, looks like Scotty's been airbrushed to history!

If King’s stupidity continues unchecked, his costs of litigation, when added to those of Green, could exceed the £2.5m in emergency funding that has been raised by Mr Taylor and Mr Letham.

What's interesting about the part in bold is that Rangers or dave kings recent statement suggested all 3 of the 3 bears including Donald Park had dipped their hand in their pocket.

Bloggers said Park was at war with king and had refused to contribute

Here Park is airbrushed

Any journos care to shed light on why no mention of park here now?

[Springbank]

Very lofty statements, but let's get real here. What people want to see is the huns lose titles. You'll need to explain to me how that is going to improve the game going forward in any shape or form. All I can see happening is we'll end up spending the next few years fiddling whilst Rome burns.

Simple

No sectarianism

No safe house for sectarianism

No visits from the violent filthy away support

More trophies going to other parts of Scotland

The last 3 years have been a pleasant armageddon

[Ozyhibby]

Groups of Celtic and Hearts fans are becoming unnervingly cooperative,

Someone needs to point out they are among the whitewashers.

I'd rather not for now. Hopefully when the SFA cave, they launch an investigation in the tax affairs of all clubs in attempt to not make it about Rangers.


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[JimBHibees]

Very lofty statements, but let's get real here. What people want to see is the huns lose titles. You'll need to explain to me how that is going to improve the game going forward in any shape or form. All I can see happening is we'll end up spending the next few years fiddling whilst Rome burns.

I think the question needs to be asked, "What would happen if it was another club". Apart from the obvious one who would be treated with kid gloves also all the rest IMO would be absolutely slaughtered and yes they would lose the titles. It is the right thing to do and should happen so that IMO the game moves on.

[southern hibby]

If we do an inquiry ( by the SFA) and titles trophies etc are removed this sets a base line that all clubs know and understand. Basically if your caught cheating then your team will suffer.

It also shows to teams that if a team is caught cheating then the SFA have the minerals to take you on and it doesn't matter how big you think you are.

Wonder what will happen if the Livingstone Owner files a complaint saying my team was docked 5 points and £10,000 after we admired our misdemeanour. The Rangers have not admitted it found in a Scottish Court to have done it and SFA do nothing about it. Will this not send out to clubs never to admit to anything which may mean getting hammered when we deny it and know nothing will happen to us.

The SFA need to act and act decisively and with a backbone for the good of our game in the long run

GGTTH

[hibs0666]

I think the question needs to be asked, "What would happen if it was another club". Apart from the obvious one who would be treated with kid gloves also all the rest IMO would be absolutely slaughtered and yes they would lose the titles. It is the right thing to do and should happen so that IMO the game moves on.

So the huns lose titles. How does that stop Hibs from getting slaughtered by Malmo? How does that help us to qualify for the next World Cup? How does that help us increase TV income so that we get the best players we possibly can into the Scottish game?

It is a sideshow and, as we can see from this site, attracts way more interest and input than its importance merits.

[hibs0666]

Simple

No sectarianism

No safe house for sectarianism

No visits from the violent filthy away support

More trophies going to other parts of Scotland

The last 3 years have been a pleasant armageddon

Docking titles will not fix sectarianism or a filthy away support - dialogue and deeds will.

Dunno what you've enjoyed most about the last three years - huns getting shafted? the Malmo tie? the relegation? national team ongoing failures?

[JimBHibees]

So the huns lose titles. How does that stop Hibs from getting slaughtered by Malmo? How does that help us to qualify for the next World Cup? How does that help us increase TV income so that we get the best players we possibly can into the Scottish game?

It is a sideshow and, as we can see from this site, attracts way more interest and input than its importance merits.

Some attempt at cleansing the game of the waft of cheating thereby hopefully allowing the game a fresh start to be taken which will allow the game to improve and achieve some of the things you listed.

[hibs0666]

Some attempt at cleansing the game of the waft of cheating thereby hopefully allowing the game a fresh start to be taken which will allow the game to improve and achieve some of the things you listed.

Removing the waft of cheating will not make us play better in Europe or make us qualify for the world cup. Seriously, we need to collectively start addressing those issues with the same energy and vigour as we pursue company tax laws.

[AndyM_1875]

I'd rather not for now. Hopefully when the SFA cave, they launch an investigation in the tax affairs of all clubs in attempt to not make it about Rangers.


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That would include Hearts shameful behavior where the tax man was done out of 1.75m due to the Lithuanian player registration shenanigans. On top of this you have a number of Celtic players and officials reducing their tax bills through avoidance mechanisms where "investments" in film companies worked for them etc. Neil Lennon is one mentioned in the article below but he is one of several figures from Celtic involved including it seems Peter Lawell and Chris Sutton.

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/308290-high-profile-scottish-football-figures-in-sweat-over-tax-avoidance-scheme/

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/23/footballers-tax-demands-hmrc

[Ozyhibby]

So the huns lose titles. How does that stop Hibs from getting slaughtered by Malmo? How does that help us to qualify for the next World Cup? How does that help us increase TV income so that we get the best players we possibly can into the Scottish game?

It is a sideshow and, as we can see from this site, attracts way more interest and input than its importance merits.

It doesn't help any of those things. It's completely separate. We have separate threads on those subjects. Lots of them.
Your wishing this would all just go away. It's too late for that no matter how much you wish it.


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[Ozyhibby]

That would include Hearts shameful behavior where the tax man was done out of 1.75m due to the Lithuanian player registration shenanigans. On top of this you have a number of Celtic players and officials reducing their tax bills through avoidance mechanisms where "investments" in film companies worked for them etc. Neil Lennon is one mentioned in the article below but he is one of several figures from Celtic involved including it seems Peter Lawell and Chris Sutton.

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/308290-high-profile-scottish-football-figures-in-sweat-over-tax-avoidance-scheme/

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/23/footballers-tax-demands-hmrc

Those schemes are down to the individuals concerned. They will be responsible. Celtic and the other clubs involved paid the tax.


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[Ozyhibby]

Removing the waft of cheating will not make us play better in Europe or make us qualify for the world cup. Seriously, we need to collectively start addressing those issues with the same energy and vigour as we pursue company tax laws.

If we don't remove the cheating then I don't much care about how successful we are. The game needs to be clean first and foremost.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Docking titles will not fix sectarianism or a filthy away support - dialogue and deeds will.

Dunno what you've enjoyed most about the last three years - huns getting shafted? the Malmo tie? the relegation? national team ongoing failures?

And how will turning a blind eye to cheating and sweeping any wrongdoing under the carpet help any of that? Make even more fans drift away from a corrupt game? How does that help?

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

That would include Hearts shameful behavior where the tax man was done out of 1.75m due to the Lithuanian player registration shenanigans. On top of this you have a number of Celtic players and officials reducing their tax bills through avoidance mechanisms where "investments" in film companies worked for them etc. Neil Lennon is one mentioned in the article below but he is one of several figures from Celtic involved including it seems Peter Lawell and Chris Sutton.

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/308290-high-profile-scottish-football-figures-in-sweat-over-tax-avoidance-scheme/

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jan/23/footballers-tax-demands-hmrc

How come the media sweep this under the carpet all the time when it comes to the yams? just how do they get away with it? If they cheated the Taxman surely they must pursue it (apologies if I've missed any answer previously)

[AndyM_1875]

Those schemes are down to the individuals concerned. They will be responsible. Celtic and the other clubs involved paid the tax.


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Hang on...
Representatives on the SFA or SPFL board whom themselves as individuals have engaged in tax avoidance are then expected to get carte blanche to hammer a club who engaged in Tax Avoidance....:cb

Well that will work out well.
:greengrin

[Dashing Bob S]

Docking titles will not fix sectarianism or a filthy away support - dialogue and deeds will.

Dunno what you've enjoyed most about the last three years - huns getting shafted? the Malmo tie? the relegation? national team ongoing failures?

Of course not - but it will help. Sectarianism has thrived because the Huns (and Celtic) have come to feel they could get away with anything, and are untouchable. If the titles were stripped it would go some way at least to undermining that sense of arrogance that allows that behaviour to thrive.

[CropleyWasGod]

Hang on...
Representatives on the SFA or SPFL board whom themselves as individuals have engaged in tax avoidance are then expected to get carte blanche to hammer a club who engaged in Tax Avoidance....:cb

Well that will work out well.
:greengrin

If they have engaged in tax avoidance, and HMRC have been sent away with their tail between their legs, then so be it.

However, a can of worms is now being opened up with such phrases as "innocent until proven guilty", "grey area", "legal vs moral" and "Gary freaking Barlow".

My own take on it is that, whilst Celtic have their alleged current issues, any reps from them (or Hearts/Livi/Dundee/Airdrie) shouldn't be involved in any judgement.

[Onion]

And how will turning a blind eye to cheating and sweeping any wrongdoing under the carpet help any of that? Make even more fans drift away from a corrupt game? How does that help?

Corruption, doping and cheating can never be condoned in sport. Plain and simple. Anyone with any influence or power in the game, who sits back and reluctantly accepts it needs to be challenged and removed. There are plenty of capable, honest folk who'll take their place.

[Ozyhibby]

Hang on...
Representatives on the SFA or SPFL board whom themselves as individuals have engaged in tax avoidance are then expected to get carte blanche to hammer a club who engaged in Tax Avoidance....:cb

Well that will work out well.
:greengrin

If it was left to the individuals at the SFA then, your right, nothing would be done. Luckily we are in different times now where people have far more access to different sources of information and easier means of organising themselves to push for change.
That has happened now are we are not going back to the old way.


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[AndyM_1875]

If they have engaged in tax avoidance, and HMRC have been sent away with their tail between their legs, then so be it.

However, a can of worms is now being opened up with such phrases as "innocent until proven guilty", "grey area", "legal vs moral" and "Gary freaking Barlow".

My own take on it is that, whilst Celtic have their alleged current issues, any reps from them (or Hearts/Livi/Dundee/Airdrie) shouldn't be involved in any judgement.

Aberdeen too. Stewart Milne was involved in the Tax Avoidance film wheeze.

[JeMeSouviens]

How come the media sweep this under the carpet all the time when it comes to the yams? just how do they get away with it? If they cheated the Taxman surely they must pursue it (apologies if I've missed any answer previously)

Simple - they couldn't GAF. The Scottish Football "authorities" don't want any mention of cheating heard in public as they want the New Huns ushered into the top flight asap so they have OF derbies to sell. The media is almost entirely complicit in this. The only thing that's kept them from doing this is grassroots fan pressure. If ordinary fans hadn't made it clear they wouldn't accept it, the New Huns would've started life in the SPL, no questions asked. However, it took a united effort from fans of every other club to achieve this.

When it comes to Hearts, the registration jiggery pokery is beneath the radar of everybody except us. Everyone thinks they overspent and were rightly punished and the resultant relegation was more or less proportionate. Only Hibbys want it taken any further and we can be dismissed as small-time bitter rivals.

Our only hope on this, as Ozy has pointed out, is the Huns getting hammered and then coming looking for anyone else they think they have a chance of lashing out at.

[Steve20]

Let's also remove titles/cups from teams that bought players they couldn't afford. Hardly anyone would have anything left.

They got sent to the Third Division since everyone was going to take their dummy and not attend matches if they didn't. Now, people are going to get upset if titles and cups aren't stripped. I would seriously doubt as many people would be like this if it was another club, including Celtic.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

Simple - they couldn't GAF. The Scottish Football "authorities" don't want any mention of cheating heard in public as they want the New Huns ushered into the top flight asap so they have OF derbies to sell. The media is almost entirely complicit in this. The only thing that's kept them from doing this is grassroots fan pressure. If ordinary fans hadn't made it clear they wouldn't accept it, the New Huns would've started life in the SPL, no questions asked. However, it took a united effort from fans of every other club to achieve this.

When it comes to Hearts, the registration jiggery pokery is beneath the radar of everybody except us. Everyone thinks they overspent and were rightly punished and the resultant relegation was more or less proportionate. Only Hibbys want it taken any further and we can be dismissed as small-time bitter rivals.

Our only hope on this, as Ozy has pointed out, is the Huns getting hammered and then coming looking for anyone else they think they have a chance of lashing out at.

:aok:

[JeMeSouviens]

Aberdeen too. Stewart Milne was involved in the Tax Avoidance film wheeze.

Thankfully, the rug has already been pulled from under him (well, more over him). :wink:

15638

[Ozyhibby]

Let's also remove titles/cups from teams that bought players they couldn't afford. Hardly anyone would have anything left.

They got sent to the Third Division since everyone was going to take their dummy and not attend matches if they didn't. Now, people are going to get upset if titles and cups aren't stripped. I would seriously doubt as many people would be like this if it was another club, including Celtic.

Nobody is suggesting taking titles away from clubs who overspent?


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[RoxburghHibs]

They got sent to the Third Division since everyone was going to take their dummy and not attend matches if they didn't. .

Utter nonsense! They were a BRAND NEW CLUB and had to apply to be permitted into the leagues. Why should a new club enter into the top flight and not start of in the lowest league? When Elgin City, Ross County and Inverness CT joined the football league they all had to start in the lowest level and work their way up.

[MrSmith]

Let's also remove titles/cups from teams that bought players they couldn't afford. Hardly anyone would have anything left.They got sent to the Third Division since everyone was going to take their dummy and not attend matches if they didn't. Now, people are going to get upset if titles and cups aren't stripped. I would seriously doubt as many people would be like this if it was another club, including Celtic. At first I didn't care about the titles but the more information becoming available has heightened the level of cheating significantly! This really needs sorted and losing the titles will be small compared to the fact they should be kicked out of football permanently! Rangers or whatever, have seriously brought the game in disrepute and made us all a complete laughing stock! Heads must roll and the line drawn for future participation. If this includes the jambos and it should, then so be it as every club must be held accountable for their participation in a sport where sporting integrity must be held paramount to ensure fair competition.

[Ozyhibby]

Change of dates for Ashley v SFA

New calendar

Charles Green v RIFC – 11/12 November @ Court of Session – re legal costs
HMA v Whyte, Withey, Grier, Whitehouse, Clark, Green, (maybe Ahmad?) – 7-11 December @ High Court – further preliminary hearings
Sports Direct v Dave King – 9 December @ Chancery Court, London – Contempt of court re disclosure of contract details.
MASH Holdings v SFA – 4 February 2016 @ Court of Session – Request for judicial review of the SFA’s FPP decision on Dave King.


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[Spike Mandela]

Let's also remove titles/cups from teams that bought players they couldn't afford. Hardly anyone would have anything left.

They got sent to the Third Division since everyone was going to take their dummy and not attend matches if they didn't. Now, people are going to get upset if titles and cups aren't stripped. I would seriously doubt as many people would be like this if it was another club, including Celtic.

Maybe just get them to pay the tax they are due then like all other clubs had to, you try not paying your tax.

.......and they weren't SENT anywhere, Jeez, we should be getting that bit right after about 1.5 million views :greengrin

[portycabbage]

Okay, I get you. So many memberships, so many shares, so many Rangers.

The SPL stuff I can follow, and understand the process. The SFA stuff, though, is a dark place.... which would be so much lighter if the 5 Way Agreement was allowed out into the public domain.

Even with the SPL stuff, I'm confused! You said that sevco/TRFC owns a member of the SPFL, but later said that the SPFL has shares rather than membership. But the statements at the time were in terms of the company (sevco) applying for membership of the league, rather than shares in it. If the shares or membership were simply assets, then they clearly weren't transferred/sold between oldco/newco, or there wouldn't have been a vote to decide whether sevco's application would be granted. IIRC this is because they revert to the league body when the member leaves (by going out of business or getting relegated). So if "the club" are the same entity as it was pre-admin, then it didn't have an SPL share (as it's owner olcdo had that) OR SPL membership (as its new owner sevco/TRFC had to apply for it).

You say there are many Rangers, but only one continuing club, which is the "goodwill", badge, history and so on. My issue with that continues to be how do we make sense of statements like "the club is in admin", "the club employs people", "the club is a league member"? The history isn't an employer and the badge isn't a league member!

I don't think a definition of "club" can coherently exclude the company side of things, unless we assume that people really mean two completely different things by "Rangers" when we talk about eg "who pays the players" (TRFC) versus "who the players play for" ("the club"). I haven't seen anything to suggest that this kind of "doublethink" existed pre-admin, or to suggest that the assets/goodwill/etc could actually be "the club" itself (given that we are used to saying that clubs have board members, sign players, issue accounts, have financial problems and so on).

[jacomo]

Let's also remove titles/cups from teams that bought players they couldn't afford. Hardly anyone would have anything left.

They got sent to the Third Division since everyone was going to take their dummy and not attend matches if they didn't. Now, people are going to get upset if titles and cups aren't stripped. I would seriously doubt as many people would be like this if it was another club, including Celtic.

Let's be clear.

They did not get sent anywhere. They went bust, and ceased to be a football club.

Sevco, new owners of the Rangers, were then allowed back into the League to start again. Logically, they had to start at the bottom.

There is precedence for this, in Scotland, England and across Europe. Hereford, Fiorentina just 2 examples that come to mind.

Separately, they've been found guilty of not registering players properly - not once or twice, but systematically over a decade.

The accepted punishment for failing to register a player properly is to be thrown out of a competition - or, if historic, to have those results expunged.

Again, there is precedent for this.

[portycabbage]

Let's also remove titles/cups from teams that bought players they couldn't afford. Hardly anyone would have anything left.

They didn't just buy players they couldn't afford - they got liquidated as a result, rather than having to make savings and cut costs like we did for example. And title stripping is being talked about because rules on declaring player contracts were broken, which clubs have been punished for previously.

[southsider]

Well said Jaco I 100% agree. All titles & cups they "won" using EBT's stripped and made void. This story has legs and may end up back in court. Speaking of courts Dodgy Dave has picked a fight with Big Mike. Now we are not talking about the 3 bear puppets or the saps in Sons of Struth. This is a real self-made billionaire and this guy don't dance.

[JeMeSouviens]

Even with the SPL stuff, I'm confused! You said that sevco/TRFC owns a member of the SPFL, but later said that the SPFL has shares rather than membership. But the statements at the time were in terms of the company (sevco) applying for membership of the league, rather than shares in it. If the shares or membership were simply assets, then they clearly weren't transferred/sold between oldco/newco, or there wouldn't have been a vote to decide whether sevco's application would be granted. IIRC this is because they revert to the league body when the member leaves (by going out of business or getting relegated). So if "the club" are the same entity as it was pre-admin, then it didn't have an SPL share (as it's owner olcdo had that) OR SPL membership (as its new owner sevco/TRFC had to apply for it).

You say there are many Rangers, but only one continuing club, which is the "goodwill", badge, history and so on. My issue with that continues to be how do we make sense of statements like "the club is in admin", "the club employs people", "the club is a league member"? The history isn't an employer and the badge isn't a league member!

I don't think a definition of "club" can coherently exclude the company side of things, unless we assume that people really mean two completely different things by "Rangers" when we talk about eg "who pays the players" (TRFC) versus "who the players play for" ("the club"). I haven't seen anything to suggest that this kind of "doublethink" existed pre-admin, or to suggest that the assets/goodwill/etc could actually be "the club" itself (given that we are used to saying that clubs have board members, sign players, issue accounts, have financial problems and so on).

It's almost as if the distinction between "club" and "company" was invented and magically retrofitted to the rules to attempt to justify shoehorning the New Huns in as a direct continuing replacement Rangers. :wink:

In reality, pre-2012 the terms were synonymous.

Rangers FC was founded in 1873 (or possibly 1872), incorporated as a limited company in 1899 (SC004276), changed its name in July 2012 to RFC 2012 plc and is currently in liquidation.

Sevco Scotland (SC425159) was incorporated in May 2012 and changed its name to The Rangers Football Club Limited in July 2012 following its purchase of the business and assets of Rangers FC.

Rangers International Football Club plc (SC437060) was incorporated in November 2012 as a holding company for TRFC Ltd.


Rangers and the SFA would have you believe that some magic unincorporation happened to suck the ethereal rancid spirit of the Old Huns out of the company and deposit it alive and well into the new one. Whether you choose to believe that or not, up to you. :wink:

[southsider]

I heard that idiot Stuart McCall on Monday night's Sportsound say if EBT's were legal why not use them. Well Stuart it is ok for the Postie or the girl in the bank or the bloke in the call centre to pay tax and n/I on their wages of £250 a week in order to keep the schools open, to pay for our NHS, to pay benefits so people don't stave or freeze to death but for the superstars of rangers f.c (IL) it is ok to pay zitch ? The armed forces one is the biggest brass neck ever as they profess an undying love for the troops whilst robbing them of much needed income. These people may have caused death injury to these brave men and women by the theft of funding. Make every player pay back to HMRC what they defrauded them (and us off.

[Weststandwanab]

I heard that idiot Stuart McCall on Monday night's Sportsound say if EBT's were legal why not use them. Well Stuart it is ok for the Postie or the girl in the bank or the bloke in the call centre to pay tax and n/I on their wages of £250 a week in order to keep the schools open, to pay for our NHS, to pay benefits so people don't stave or freeze to death but for the superstars of rangers f.c (IL) it is ok to pay zitch ? The armed forces one is the biggest brass neck ever as they profess an undying love for the troops whilst robbing them of much needed income. These people may have caused death injury to these brave men and women by the theft of funding. Make every player pay back to HMRC what they defrauded them (and us off.

Spot on

[CallumLaidlaw]

I heard that idiot Stuart McCall on Monday night's Sportsound say if EBT's were legal why not use them. Well Stuart it is ok for the Postie or the girl in the bank or the bloke in the call centre to pay tax and n/I on their wages of £250 a week in order to keep the schools open, to pay for our NHS, to pay benefits so people don't stave or freeze to death but for the superstars of rangers f.c (IL) it is ok to pay zitch ? The armed forces one is the biggest brass neck ever as they profess an undying love for the troops whilst robbing them of much needed income. These people may have caused death injury to these brave men and women by the theft of funding. Make every player pay back to HMRC what they defrauded them (and us off.

I totally agreed with Darren O'Dea on the show. Leave the medals with the players as they went onto the field and earned them, but the club should be stripped of the titles as they deliberately gained a advantage on the field through their actions. Graham Spiers said that David Murray even said in a court hearing that had it not been for the EBT's the club would have been unlikelt to attract certain players to the club. Surely that says it all. The attitude from Lambert & McCall was everything I would expect from an Old Firm love in. They almost sneered when they said that fans viewed things differently from players. Yes, these fans that pay a good portion of their wages every week/month to follow a tournament only to find out their opponents cheated. How dare we have an issue!!

[Sergey]

There is an important point in here that we should not overlook - Scottish football is a basket case and is probably only a couple of rungs up from the Maidstone United's of this world.

What proportion of effort do we want to spend kicking **** out of one another - and making the situation even worse - versus working together to try and get this shambles of a sport on a decent footing?

Right now it looks like 100% on the former and 0% on the latter.

:top marks

I wish I had come up with this statement :greengrin

[jacomo]

Well said Jaco I 100% agree. All titles & cups they "won" using EBT's stripped and made void. This story has legs and may end up back in court. Speaking of courts Dodgy Dave has picked a fight with Big Mike. Now we are not talking about the 3 bear puppets or the saps in Sons of Struth. This is a real self-made billionaire and this guy don't dance.

:agree:

If you're gonna pick a fight with Big Mike, best make sure you've got very deep pockets yourself.

Dave King's hardman posturing with Sports Direct looks more and more ill-advised with each passing day.

[MrSmith]

:agree:

If you're gonna pick a fight with Big Mike, best make sure you've got very deep pockets yourself.

Dave King's hardman posturing with Sports Direct looks more and more ill-advised with each passing day.

Don't you think mr King is deliberately doing this to get out of rangers in order to save money and face? This way he looks like the victim of the nasty tyrant. Bet King can't wait to get out of dodge!

[jgl07]

There is an important point in here that we should not overlook - Scottish football is a basket case and is probably only a couple of runds up from the Maidstone United's of this world.

What proportion of effort do we want to spend kicking **** out of one another - and making the situation even worse - versus working together to try and get this shambles of a sport on a decent footing?

Right now it looks like 100% on the former and 0% on the latter.
I hate to say this but Scittish Football has been a basket case for twenty or thirty years. This is ever since first Rangers (with the arrival of Souness) and later Celtic (Fergus McCann) started to flex their financial muscle and comprehensively outspend everyone else.

It has been consistent decline since then.

The League is totally uncompetitive and this has percolated down to all levels.

Allowing Rangers to 'move on' will not solve that problem.

[Hibeesforever]

I heard that idiot Stuart McCall on Monday night's Sportsound say if EBT's were legal why not use them. Well Stuart it is ok for the Postie or the girl in the bank or the bloke in the call centre to pay tax and n/I on their wages of £250 a week in order to keep the schools open, to pay for our NHS, to pay benefits so people don't stave or freeze to death but for the superstars of rangers f.c (IL) it is ok to pay zitch ? The armed forces one is the biggest brass neck ever as they profess an undying love for the troops whilst robbing them of much needed income. These people may have caused death injury to these brave men and women by the theft of funding. Make every player pay back to HMRC what they defrauded them (and us off.
Totally agree.
If our politicians are too incompetent to draft proper legislation to force payment, there could at least be a crowdfunding type movement encouraging named EBT individuals to donate an amount, say 40% to an HMRC approved charity.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Sporting integrity?

[brog]

I hate to say this but Scittish Football has been a basket case for twenty or thirty years. This is ever since first Rangers (with the arrival of Souness) and later Celtic (Fergus McCann) started to flex their financial muscle and comprehensively outspend everyone else.

It has been consistent decline since then.

The League is totally uncompetitive and this has percolated down to all levels.

Allowing Rangers to 'move on' will not solve that problem.

With the exception of the 20 years after WW2 when Hibs, Yams, Dundee, Aberdeen & Killie all won the league & the brief New Firm period in the 80's, Scottish football has always been uncompetitive. The fact that there was full employment & huge crowds after WW2 basically took away much of the OF economic advantage at that time. Celtc only won 1 league in those 20 years & their crowds were tiny until Stein arrived. To put it in perspective, IIRC there was only one year between the wars when the league wasn't won by the OF. I agree it's now a dreadful & totally uncompetitive situation but unfortunately this is not really anything new.

[wills]

Just a thought, if UEFA take a dim view on the actions of the SFA with regards to "fit and proper person" and all issues relating to this saga, could they ban all Scottish clubs from European competitions until sporting integrity is achieved?

[CraigHibee]

Im hoping that Mike Ashley wins his case against the sfa so it can highlight just how corrupt they are, there is absolutely no way that dave king could be passed as "fit and proper" given his previous convictions

[Ozyhibby]

Just a thought, if UEFA take a dim view on the actions of the SFA with regards to "fit and proper person" and all issues relating to this saga, could they ban all Scottish clubs from European competitions until sporting integrity is achieved?

They can although they have their own problems just now given that their president is banned from all football for allegedly taking bribes.


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[Ozyhibby]

Im hoping that Mike Ashley wins his case against the sfa so it can highlight just how corrupt they are, there is absolutely no way that dave king could be passed as "fit and proper" given his previous convictions

Whatever the outcome, the decision will now have to be explained in open court. Transparency is the best disinfectant.


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[Halifaxhibby]

If rangers/sevco/govan zombies/glesga shame boys get away with rhis scheme, does it not set a precedent?, will it hypothetically mean we could sign world class players win a league, possibly a treble then not pay them or the income tax and then claim it as our own in our history?. I wish i could buy a ferrari on my credit card. Change my name. Declare myself bankrupt and keep the car!!!!!!
Happy days eh???!!!! FTSFA

[Dashing Bob S]

He's awful and completely self serving but I think Scottish football ultimately may owe Ashley a great deal. The taking the SFA to court over King FFP is a nightmare and could have massive potential ramifications.

[truehibernian]

He's awful and completely self serving but I think Scottish football ultimately may owe Ashley a great deal. The taking the SFA to court over King FFP is a nightmare and could have massive potential ramifications.

It's a great move by Ashley and will force the SFA to reveal their process for assessment, who made the decisions and what due diligence was done and in what timescales. I'm sure a journalist on the radio yesterday said there had been an unusual process used by them that whilst not wrong in procedure had rarely been used previously hence he thought there was cause for the SFA to have a genuine concern.

Could as you say be good for Scottish football and also force moves and change - hopefully see Regan leave too. He's been awful.

[Hibee87]

I know next to nothing on legal things, but did King not get some sort of court approval to become a director of a company again? Would the SFA defense agaisnt Ashley not be based on the court approval for that? Wether this is right or wrong in ours and many other people eyes

[Glesgahibby]

Whatever the outcome, the decision will now have to be explained in open court. Transparency is the best disinfectant.


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I think the decision on ineligible/eligible players will also have to be explained in open court one day.
If the SFA don't deal with this properly,they could leave themselves exposed to all sorts.

[jacomo]

Don't you think mr King is deliberately doing this to get out of rangers in order to save money and face? This way he looks like the victim of the nasty tyrant. Bet King can't wait to get out of dodge!

Possibly. Does King know what he's doing? In all honesty, I just think he's a bit thick. Makes it all the more galling that he has scooped up so much wealth - but I suppose if you've got no scruples, that is a lot easier.

[MrSmith]

Possibly. Does King know what he's doing? In all honesty, I just think he's a bit thick. Makes it all the more galling that he has scooped up so much wealth - but I suppose if you've got no scruples, that is a lot easier.

He certainly appears to display sociopathic tendencies.

He does though, know how to appeal to the ignorant within the newco support, almost as though inciting nationalism!

[steakbake]

It's a great move by Ashley and will force the SFA to reveal their process for assessment, who made the decisions and what due diligence was done and in what timescales. I'm sure a journalist on the radio yesterday said there had been an unusual process used by them that whilst not wrong in procedure had rarely been used previously hence he thought there was cause for the SFA to have a genuine concern.

Could as you say be good for Scottish football and also force moves and change - hopefully see Regan leave too. He's been awful.

He's a rich man so can afford legal assistance no problems. Equally, he's a busy man so why would Ashley make a move like this if he was not convinced that he had an excellent chance of getting what he wants? And why now? Personally, I think it's because he's got the opportunity to take down King and he's got something on the SFA that is going to come back to haunt them.

[AndyM_1875]

Possibly. Does King know what he's doing? In all honesty, I just think he's a bit thick. Makes it all the more galling that he has scooped up so much wealth - but I suppose if you've got no scruples, that is a lot easier.

King is incredibly arrogant and self assured and expects to get his own way at all times.
Unluckily for him he's done the worst think possible in angering Mike Ashley, a man who could buy and sell him many times over. It's the equivalent of punching an angry grizzly bear.

Ashley will put Dave King in his place. Why? Because he can. And because he feels like it..

[jacomo]

I heard that idiot Stuart McCall on Monday night's Sportsound say if EBT's were legal why not use them. Well Stuart it is ok for the Postie or the girl in the bank or the bloke in the call centre to pay tax and n/I on their wages of £250 a week in order to keep the schools open, to pay for our NHS, to pay benefits so people don't stave or freeze to death but for the superstars of rangers f.c (IL) it is ok to pay zitch ? The armed forces one is the biggest brass neck ever as they profess an undying love for the troops whilst robbing them of much needed income. These people may have caused death injury to these brave men and women by the theft of funding. Make every player pay back to HMRC what they defrauded them (and us off.

For me the issue is very straightforward.

For a decade, Rangers failed to register their players properly. This is because they didn't disclose full details of player contracts to the SFA and SPL - a clear breach of regulations.

The sanction for failing to register a player properly - let alone lots of players over a 10 year period - is clear. All those titles should be expunged.

However... It seems entirely possible that the infamous 5 way agreement includes some sort of immunity against this sort of retrospective punishment.

So what does the SFA do now?

[hibs0666]

For me the issue is very straightforward.

For a decade, Rangers failed to register their players properly. This is because they didn't disclose full details of player contracts to the SFA and SPL - a clear breach of regulations.

The sanction for failing to register a player properly - let alone lots of players over a 10 year period - is clear. All those titles should be expunged.

However... It seems entirely possible that the infamous 5 way agreement includes some sort of immunity against this sort of retrospective punishment.

So what does the SFA do now?

The registration question has already been dealt with...

"Although the payments in this case were not themselves irregular and were not in breach of SPL or SFA Rules, the scale and extent of the proven contraventions of the disclosure rules require a substantial penalty to be imposed.

"Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed upon Rangers FC."

[Geo_1875]

The registration question has already been dealt with...

"Although the payments in this case were not themselves irregular and were not in breach of SPL or SFA Rules, the scale and extent of the proven contraventions of the disclosure rules require a substantial penalty to be imposed.

"Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed upon Rangers FC."

Those other reasons being what?

[Bostonhibby]

The registration question has already been dealt with...

"Although the payments in this case were not themselves irregular and were not in breach of SPL or SFA Rules, the scale and extent of the proven contraventions of the disclosure rules require a substantial penalty to be imposed.

"Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed upon Rangers FC."

When you look at some of the players they were able to sign in this period, the success that immediately followed and the true cost / financial impact all these years later this statement really does ram home how disdainful the football authorities are of the commonsense of the fans of all the other clubs on Scotland whilst at the same time looking to issue as statement that helps the team who gained from cheating here.

[ano hibby]

I wonder where 'all' Kings money is?
If it's in SA he will have taken a fair hit.
5 years ago 10 Rand to £1
Now over 20 Rand to £1
50% hit to £ wealth on paper at least.
Guess wealthy businessmen should deploy money managers who would diversify outside SA. No idea whether he's done this.

[Nazz]

The registration question has already been dealt with...

"Although the payments in this case were not themselves irregular and were not in breach of SPL or SFA Rules, the scale and extent of the proven contraventions of the disclosure rules require a substantial penalty to be imposed.

"Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed upon Rangers FC."

Where are you quoting from?

[MrSmith]

The registration question has already been dealt with...

"Although the payments in this case were not themselves irregular and were not in breach of SPL or SFA Rules, the scale and extent of the proven contraventions of the disclosure rules require a substantial penalty to be imposed.

"Rangers FC did not gain any unfair competitive advantage from the contraventions of the SPL rules in failing to make proper disclosure of the side-letter arrangements, nor did the non-disclosure have the effect that any of the registered players were ineligible to play, and for this and other reasons no sporting sanction or penalty should be imposed upon Rangers FC."


If above correct - no reason to doubt - the recent court ruling (subject to SC appeal) has blown it out the water and is now open to scrutiny and legal process.

Its out now and every one involved will be running for cover. The severest penalty must be imposed and until then, there is no way I'm moving on and forgetting the antics of Rangers Football Club!

[Ozyhibby]

I wonder where 'all' Kings money is?
If it's in SA he will have taken a fair hit.
5 years ago 10 Rand to £1
Now over 20 Rand to £1
50% hit to £ wealth on paper at least.
Guess wealthy businessmen should deploy money managers who would diversify outside SA. No idea whether he's done this.

He is not allowed to take money out of SA. It was part of his settlement with the revenue that all his money was brought back to SA and it stays there.


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