Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[SteveHFC]

http://www.celticminded.com/forums/images/smilies/frozen.gif

[Arch Stanton]

Nah.

Murray's other companies are in too much deep doo-doo to allow him to even contemplate that!

But a debt free Rangers would be pretty profitable and risk free.

[PaulSmith]

Rangers current debts to the big guys:

HMRC - quoted now £75m
Ticketus - £20m
Craig Whyte - £18m

Over £100m, just hold that thought. £100m and Whyte is the only secured creditor.

If I'm reading this right then the CVA requires HMRC to agree a settlement of Xp in the £? Isn't the CVA wholy dependant on HMRC accepting this offer?

[ancienthibby]

They seem to be forgetting about the millions he pumped into the club out his own pocket

More likely he stripped companies in the group of any cash to fund his Rankgers ambitions.

As in the case of acquiring one Paul Gasgoine.

Oh how the mighty are fallen!

[Bostonhibby]

Could be. They'll start next season with a clean slate, same name, same stadium and much much more money to spend than the ten below them.

Highly likely and the SFA / League would no doubt be keen to accomodate the Hun surviving in some form or other.

Hopefully both bodies will recognise that the club that was Glasgow Rangers FC has voluntarily run itself down, and as such when they do emerge, with a nod and a wink and maybe even a pat on the back from the footballing establishment to help them along, the bodies that adminster Scottish Football will feel that all the honours won by the now defunct club pass with it and the new entity starts from year Zero - clean start eh?, the price of parking all that debt / shafting everyone they leave behind, including their very own Majesties Revenue and Customs.

[jgl07]

They seem to be forgetting about the millions he pumped into the club out his own pocket

Murray tended to pump other peoples money into Rangers rather than his own. He conned his wealthy friends into 'investing' in Rangers and they ended up losing the lot.

[neilmartinrocks]

Not sure about that - Whyte is in no position to gain from this.

I actually suspect that it is Murray's plan - to get Whyte to take the club into administration so that he can come back in and buy the club from the administrator.

DAVID MURRAY KNEW?
i think he did as you say. get out and come back on a big white horse after the smoke settles.

[greenginger]

What does the typical hun think of David Murray?

Find out here................http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=210511&view=findpost&p=1059764274


Obviously no swear filter on that site !!! I wonder what the poster who got removed actually said. :confused:

[BroxburnHibee]

Don't know why so many people are getting so excited by all this. The likes of Motherwell and Dundee have shown that administration means nothing and even with a 10 point deduction Rangers will still walk 2nd place. Forget administration, it's liquidation that we want.

They didn't have a £50 million court case around their necks.

I actually agree though - todays move was about calling HMRC's bluff - if they don't blink first then liquidation is a distinct possibility.

Believe it when I see it. :greengrin

[Hermit Crab]

Andy Gray on Talksport saying the league wont exist without Rangers or Celtic?? Thoughts.

[SteveHFC]

Andy Gray on Talksport saying the league wont exist without Rangers or Celtic?? Thoughts.

Andy Gray is a prick :aok:

[Saorsa]

Andy Gray on Talksport saying the league wont exist without Rangers or Celtic?? Thoughts.Just one, who gives a toss what that tit says.

[PaulSmith]

They didn't have a £50 million court case around their necks.

I actually agree though - todays move was about calling HMRC's bluff - if they don't blink first then liquidation is a distinct possibility.

Believe it when I see it. :greengrin

I thik your spot on here, it'a about upping the ante to HMRC. Will the 'cold hearted taxman' really not have the expertise to see through this?

Whyte when asked if he will continue to fund Rangers ' to a limit' obviously not a billionaire then :)

[ancienthibby]

Andy Gray on Talksport saying the league wont exist without Rangers or Celtic?? Thoughts.

Refer him to Mr Lawwell of Cfc.:greengrin

[robinp]

I've always thought the taxman took precedence over all other creditors including secured ? ??:confused:

Crown preference was abolished years ago.

[Westie1875]

Andy Gray on Talksport saying the league wont exist without Rangers or Celtic?? Thoughts.

Where are Celtic going?

And, that is rubbish, it will exist. A tv deal wouldn't be worth nearly as much but with most clubs having the chance to win the league attendances would go up for all other teams and the folk who support the bigots would need to find another team to support.

[Aldo]

Andy Gray on Talksport saying the league wont exist without Rangers or Celtic?? Thoughts.

Pants. When we were in the 1st Div we reg got crowds if 9 to 10 thousand maybe a bit more. That's cos we were winning.

That's more than double the likes of St Johnstone and St Mirren get now. Yeah we would loss income from the OF but would like to think we could compensate for that should we get a half decent team??

[SteveHFC]

http://i.imgur.com/EWN5B.gif

[Dashing Bob S]

I thik your spot on here, it'a about upping the ante to HMRC. Will the 'cold hearted taxman' really not have the expertise to see through this?

Whyte when asked if he will continue to fund Rangers ' to a limit' obviously not a billionaire then :)

Exactly what it is. Whyte is using the administration process to say to HMRC 'negotiate a lower settlement with us, or risk getting nothing.'

The HMRC will probably challenge the administration process and insist on liquidation.

This will drag on, but it will put the Huns current creditors in a very difficult position. It should also deter (a la the Jambos) any sane party doing credit with the Huns.

[neilmartinrocks]

Andy Gray on Talksport saying the league wont exist without Rangers or Celtic?? Thoughts.

Hmmmmmmmm.........andy gray is a complete ****ing twat who makes a living talking out of his arse?

[Hermit Crab]

Where are Celtic going?

And, that is rubbish, it will exist. A tv deal wouldn't be worth nearly as much but with most clubs having the chance to win the league attendances would go up for all other teams and the folk who support the bigots would need to find another team to support.


This :agree:

[SteveHFC]

http://www.afc-chat.co.uk/ :faf:

[Dashing Bob S]

Hmmmmmmmm.........andy gray is a complete ****ing twat who makes a living talking out of his arse?

As I understand it Andy Gray is an articulate, non-sexist, tax and finance expert.

[Bostonhibby]

Andy Gray is a prick :aok:

Wasn't he the one that was a sexist prick? Otherwise keep up the good work:wink:

[Arch Stanton]

They didn't have a £50 million court case around their necks.

I actually agree though - todays move was about calling HMRC's bluff - if they don't blink first then liquidation is a distinct possibility.

Believe it when I see it. :greengrin

Whether they forgo the debt or Rangers go into administration, HMRC won't get their money - I can't see any reason why they wouldn't continue to play hardball.

[s.a.m]

Genuine question here, for those who look in on FF / know huns; what is the general mood regarding Whyte? Are the doing the Jambo head-in-the-sand, blind support thing, or have they gone off him?

[loanheadhibby]

Yup! The huns are playing a blinder with this one! Trying to force HMRC into a much reduced tax bill rather than the nowt they would get if they were in administration. Genius!

Something's got to be done about debt levels in football. It's nothing short of cheating.

I agree and hope the XXns dont get away with it. They have cheated their way to the last 3 titles. How many clubs are going to get away with it? Motherwell into admin, spent hee haw on their stadium but get good players, hearts enough said, take in 8 million and spend 12 million, livi won the league cup whilst paying players around £5k a week on crowds of about 3k.

RFC will be back in some shape or other after administration and they dont win the leage this year (which they possibly would not have anyway). The whole set up stinks. I would demote them to 3rd division and ban them from signing anyone on more than £500 per week.

[SteveHFC]

"Scottish football would die without rangers" Get it up yea you wee ****. :aok:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17015624

[neilmartinrocks]

As I understand it Andy Gray is an articulate, non-sexist, tax and finance expert.
:confused:
in the absence of a SARCASM smiley i will just assume that is.:wink:

[Spike Mandela]

What does the typical hun think of David Murray?

Find out here................http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=210511&view=findpost&p=1059764274

Absolutely disgusting people.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The face of Ibrox is a grade B listed building, so can not be sold off, Murray Park is in the hands of a holding company and can not be touched...only assests is on the pitch

Is it not the case that MP could be sold off, but, Glasgow Council wont allow the land to be developed for residential use, therefor greatly reducing the value of the land?

[neilmartinrocks]

Genuine question here, for those who look in on FF / know huns; what is the general mood regarding Whyte? Are the doing the Jambo head-in-the-sand, blind support thing, or have they gone off him?

the way i see it they are split between blaming whyte and blaming murray half a dozen of them in the grill last week about fighting each other.

[Winston Ingram]

Gazza has just turned up at Ibrox with a 6 pack, some chicken and a fishing rod:flying:

[carnoustiehibee]

http://www.afc-chat.co.uk/ :faf:

They seem to be enjoying it. Guy on there suggesting all other fans singing "the Huns are going bust" song at the weekend. Would be great hearing it on open all mics and the whole of Easter road on Sunday

[s.a.m]

Gazza has just turned up at Ibrox with a 6 pack, some chicken and a fishing rod:flying:

:greengrin

[StevieC]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17015624

The young laddie at the end of that clip is more insightful than he probably realises ..

"you wouldnay want to go and watch it because it would just be the same team winning year after year ..."

Errr, you mean like the rest of us have to put up with just now?? :rolleyes:

[Prawn Sandwich]

Is it not the case that MP could be sold off, but, Glasgow Council wont allow the land to be developed for residential use, therefor greatly reducing the value of the land?

I might be wrong, but I understand that David Murray still owns Murray Park and much of the land surrounding Ibrox? Whyte bought the Club and the stadium along with £20 million debt for £1.

[Ship Hibs]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17020610
Check out his eyeballs, he looks like a coked up patsy thats been put in place to take the rap then someone rides in and picks up the club for peanuts after the admin process. The whole thing stinks to me.

[ironmike]

http://www.afc-chat.co.uk/ :faf:

some interesting posts on there, especially the ones about hearts not getting the money they're owed for wallace! :thumbsup:

[Moulin Yarns]

The face of Ibrox is a grade B listed building, so can not be sold off, Murray Park is in the hands of a holding company and can not be touched...only assests is on the pitch

Just because Ibrox is a listed building doesn't stop it being sold and developed. Check out Highbury

[Elephant Stone]

Gazza has just turned up at Ibrox with a 6 pack, some chicken and a fishing rod:flying:

:top marks

[3pm]

Anyone know if the EPL have called the Ibrox hotline today? Cannae be long til SKY give them the call. Honestly.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Looks like Murray has left Rangers without a leg to stand on!

[Albion Hibs]

I am not in the know about these situations, but it would appear that they go into adminstration, loose 10 points in a season they are not winning anything anyway, keep their stadium, keep their players, keep their training ground. Have to get a new name, have just signed a new player yet as tax payers we are footing the bill that they will leave for walking away from their tax obligations....****.....and all done at the expense of honest football fans who have seen they buy leagues and trophies over the years.

I hope each and every one of them is sitting in the corner of their govan slum hugging their picture of "mum" aka the queen.

[Part/Time Supporter]

Just because Ibrox is a listed building doesn't stop it being sold and developed. Check out Highbury

Makes it far more difficult. Ibrox isn't exactly prime location either.

[Albion Hibs]

Makes it far more difficult. Ibrox isn't exactly prime location either.

Regardless it is easily done, perhaps retaining the facade of the dump. Re location agree completely, a dump and apparently the development of affordable housing is on the fall as well.....unlucky teddies!

[sixtwo]

http://i.imgur.com/fRchs.gif

[Gatecrasher]

http://www.change.org/petitions/her-majestys-revenue-and-customs-drop-their-legal-action-against-rangers-fc-regarding-the-clubs-ebt

:hilarious

[heartbreaker]

Let's be honest Shame FC are a truly disgusting football club which it is great to see turned into a basket case needing official charity.

[John_the_angus_hibby]

The sickening thing (after I have spent the last 2 hours dancing and singing and watching as much news items on it as u can) is that if any semblance if a Rangers team comes out of this; all of us have subsidised their last 10 years of success(!) without much payback from that bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals!


Sent from another universe!

[NOLA]

Looks like Murray has left Rangers without a leg to stand on!
:not worth

[PaulSmith]

I am not in the know about these situations, but it would appear that they go into adminstration, loose 10 points in a season they are not winning anything anyway, keep their stadium, keep their players, keep their training ground. Have to get a new name, have just signed a new player yet as tax payers we are footing the bill that they will leave for walking away from their tax obligations....****.....and all done at the expense of honest football fans who have seen they buy leagues and trophies over the years.

I hope each and every one of them is sitting in the corner of their govan slum hugging their picture of "mum" aka the queen.


It's not as cut and dried as it would appear IMO.

Some further Q&A's in here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17018226

[ggth]

the tax man has lodged several winding up orders for the hertz recently, i am sure they will do the same to rangers, if they loose the tax case

[heartbreaker]

The sickening thing (after I have spent the last 2 hours dancing and singing and watching as much news items on it as u can) is that if any semblance if a Rangers team comes out of this; all of us have subsidised their last 10 years of success(!) without much payback from that bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals!


Sent from another universe!

Correst. There is a real question to be asked here. Scottish clubs which are properly run have been denied European competition essentially by a failed charity case enjoying financial doping by the taxpayer.

[Winston Ingram]

the tax man has lodged several winding up orders for the hertz recently, i am sure they will do the same to rangers, if they loose the tax case

From what I understand Hertz have never topped a million. The one lodged against the Huns is £49m and Criag Whyte has tonight said it could rise to £75m which is a tad different


On top of that the HMRC made a very public erse of themselves last week with the Redknapp/Mandaric trial. They're unlikely to be to keen to be seen to do the same again

[PaulSmith]

The only bit to focus on in regards the CVA is if the UNsecured creditors agree to the CVA, in essence this is the wholly down to HMRC.

In previous situations with 'Well, Livi and Dundee was HMRC involved up to that level of liability?

In fact read this, better than trying to 2nd guess anything..seems pretty factual but not sure how balanced it is.

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/rangers-administration-cva-nae-chance/

[BSEJVT]

If they lose the HMRC case, Administration will not save them. They will be liquidated and have to start all over again with applications to the league. Ibrox will become public property (probably owned by HMRC - i.e. you and me - so we could in theory go for a kick about on a weekday :greengrin

Much as I would love this to be the case, it has next to no chance of happening.

Whatever Whyte is he is no-one's fool.

Wouldnt be surprised if they have no assets at all barr their playing staff with all the "bricks and mortar assets" held separately for "tax reasons".

A few token numpties will be sold / freed as a gesture of contrition.

No way would Whyte have taken on Inland Revenue gamble without master plan behind it, his advisers would get sued to hell and back if he had.

Rangers will go into Admin

Whyte will buy them at xp in the pound. Inland Revenue will get severely stiffed, Murray and Whyte will walk away relatively unscathed

They will have a share issue which the Rangers supporters will back in their thousands, giving Whyte all the costs back for buying them out of Admin.

He will then either rent them or sell them Ipox and walk away minted, having done you and I over like a kipper and no doubt have acquired some other tangible reward from David Murray for hauling his arse out the fire.

[PaulSmith]

Much as I would love this to be the case, it has next to no chance of happening.

Whatever Whyte is he is no-one's fool.

Wouldnt be surprised if they have no assets at all barr their playing staff with all the "bricks and mortar assets" held separately for "tax reasons".

A few token numpties will be sold / freed as a gesture of contrition.

No way would Whyte have taken on Inland Revenue gamble without master plan behind it, his advisers would get sued to hell and back if he had.

Rangers will go into Admin

Whyte will buy them at xp in the pound. Inland Revenue will get severely stiffed, Murray and Whyte will walk away relatively unscathed

They will have a share issue which the Rangers supporters will back in their thousands, giving Whyte all the costs back for buying them out of Admin.

He will then either rent them or sell them Ipox and walk away minted, having done you and I over like a kipper and no doubt have acquired some other tangible reward from David Murray for hauling his arse out the fire.

With respect I'd say he was a chancer who has been caught previously and proved unworthy in two courts now.

Do you believe that the taxman is just going to walk away from this and give a green light for tax evasion on a grand scale, it just doesn't happen and never will do. He's tried it once with HMRC and got caught hence his 7 years disqualification.

[CropleyWasGod]

Much as I would love this to be the case, it has next to no chance of happening.

Whatever Whyte is he is no-one's fool.

Wouldnt be surprised if they have no assets at all barr their playing staff with all the "bricks and mortar assets" held separately for "tax reasons".

A few token numpties will be sold / freed as a gesture of contrition.

No way would Whyte have taken on Inland Revenue gamble without master plan behind it, his advisers would get sued to hell and back if he had.

Rangers will go into Admin

Whyte will buy them at xp in the pound. Inland Revenue will get severely stiffed, Murray and Whyte will walk away relatively unscathed

They will have a share issue which the Rangers supporters will back in their thousands, giving Whyte all the costs back for buying them out of Admin.

He will then either rent them or sell them Ipox and walk away minted, having done you and I over like a kipper and no doubt have acquired some other tangible reward from David Murray for hauling his arse out the fire.

RFC own the properties. CW has security for his loan over them.

[frazeHFC]

Sorry if already posted, but:

:rotflmao:

http://i.imgur.com/EWN5B.gif

http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff362/chapstick9/kjijhijhn.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PbMYI.jpg

[Eyrie]

Sadly it's too much to hope that they will drag the whinging tims down with them.

However given that Whyte knew that the tax case could go against the Huns, I find it hard to believe that this administration is not part of his cunning plan to avoid having to pay out.

[Dr Jimmy]

Sorry if already posted, but:

:rotflmao:

http://i.imgur.com/EWN5B.gif

http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff362/chapstick9/kjijhijhn.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PbMYI.jpg

The only item in Chubby's trolley is a ****in lettuce! Who is she trying to kid.

[BSEJVT]

With respect I'd say he was a chancer who has been caught previously and proved unworthy in two courts now.

Do you believe that the taxman is just going to walk away from this and give a green light for tax evasion on a grand scale, it just doesn't happen and never will do. He's tried it once with HMRC and got caught hence his 7 years disqualification.

With equal respect to you it is not impossible to be no-one's fool and a chancer, they quite often go hand in hand.

If I read Whyte correctly his 7 year disqualification would mean nothing to him, this is his ticket to the big money game.

No I dont believe the taxman will willingly walk away far from it, but even the taxman cannot get blood from a stone.

Whyte has had a long time to plan this before even committing to purchase Rangers, Do you think he was going to play heads or tails over a tax liability that could stretch to £75m+

[Cropley10]

I "believe" HMRC will need to agree to a CVA. Meaning it's not a done deal.

[I'm_cabbaged]

The only item in Chubby's trolley is a ****in lettuce! Who is she trying to kid.

That's to go on the half dozen boxes of frozen doner kebabs that going to get ;)

[SunshineOnLeith]

With equal respect to you it is not impossible to be no-one's fool and a chancer, they quite often go hand in hand.

If I read Whyte correctly his 7 year disqualification would mean nothing to him, this is his ticket to the big money game.

No I dont believe the taxman will willingly walk away far from it, but even the taxman cannot get blood from a stone.

Whyte has had a long time to plan this before even committing to purchase Rangers, Do you think he was going to play heads or tails over a tax liability that could stretch to £75m+

Whyte will get paid whatever happens, he has the only secured debt. The issue is what happens to RFC. It's extremely unlikely that HMRC will get the full £50/75m (depending on what reports you read), so the plan is to force HMRC into taking a settlement now rather than get little/nothing in a liquidation. Thankfully, it's extremely unlikely that HMRC will go for such a deal, as it would set a horrible precedent in their practice.

[grunt]

It's not as cut and dried as it would appear IMO.
Some further Q&A's in here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17018226

Clearly lots of thought and preparation put into this article by the BBC...

"Administrators are then in charge of the company and, while they're in charge, creditors cannot expect to get payments they expected."

[PaulSmith]

With equal respect to you it is not impossible to be no-one's fool and a chancer, they quite often go hand in hand.

If I read Whyte correctly his 7 year disqualification would mean nothing to him, this is his ticket to the big money game.

No I dont believe the taxman will willingly walk away far from it, but even the taxman cannot get blood from a stone.

Whyte has had a long time to plan this before even committing to purchase Rangers, Do you think he was going to play heads or tails over a tax liability that could stretch to £75m+

Depends on what you believe he personally has to lose (or gain) on the likely scenario that HMRC do not agree to the CVA. Is it not feasible to see him own Ibrox, Murray Park and start up a new co Rangers 2012 and sell it for several millions of pounds to an ex director such as Paul Murray or float the club on the stock exchange, all in exchange for £1 in hard cash that he used to buy from MIM.

Rangers are re-founded and start debt free agreed and Whyte gets his £££ but the old Rangers are no more, no Europe for 3 years and it would take a lot to convince the other clubs that Rangers should automatically be granted entrance back into the SPL as we know it via first gaining a new SFA licence.

This I would argue would be Whyte's ultimate end game.

[BurghHibby]

The only item in Chubby's trolley is a ****in lettuce! Who is she trying to kid.

Its no a lettuce, its one of the guys gangrene infected he haws!

[CropleyWasGod]

Depends on what you believe he personally has to lose (or gain) on the likely scenario that HMRC do not agree to the CVA. Is it not feasible to see him own Ibrox, Murray Park and start up a new co Rangers 2012 and sell it for several millions of pounds to an ex director such as Paul Murray or float the club on the stock exchange, all in exchange for £1 in hard cash that he used to buy from MIM.

Rangers are re-founded and start debt free agreed and Whyte gets his £££ but the old Rangers are no more, no Europe for 3 years and it would take a lot to convince the other clubs that Rangers should automatically be granted entrance back into the SPL as we know it via first gaining a new SFA licence.

This I would argue would be Whyte's ultimate end game.

Slightly confused here. What about the £18m he paid to Lloyd's TSB? He would have to sell the properties for more than that to be ahead, no?

[Capt Mainwaring]

Apologies if someone has already called this out, but Rangers going into Administration presents a massive opportunity for the other non Old Firm clubs.

If Administration means they have to re-apply for SPL membership then it's a must that in return for this membership has to come with the following conditions:

Removal of the 11 - 1 voting rule (effectively giving the Old Firm a veto on change)

Re-distribution of TV and commercial income to provide better even spread across all SPL clubs

Might also involve a points deduction penalty for next 3 seasons and certainly make sure that they were no allowed to take a European slot regardless of where they finished in the league - again say for next 3 years

Time for the SPL clubs to grow some balls and take collective advantage

[PaulSmith]

Slightly confused here. What about the £18m he paid to Lloyd's TSB? He would have to sell the properties for more than that to be ahead, no?

lol, of course. Sorry any monies raised over the initial £18m he used to pay Lloyds would be 'his' with a new co Rangers. :aok:

[Cameron1875]

Real radios first two songs of the hour have been i gotta feeling by black eyed peas then keep the faith by bon jovi. Dj is surely at it!

[PaulSmith]

Apologies if someone has already called this out, but Rangers going into Administration presents a massive opportunity for the other non Old Firm clubs.

If Administration means they have to re-apply for SPL membership then it's a must that in return for this membership has to come with the following conditions:

Removal of the 11 - 1 voting rule (effectively giving the Old Firm a veto on change)

Re-distribution of TV and commercial income to provide better even spread across all SPL clubs

Might also involve a points deduction penalty for next 3 seasons and certainly make sure that they were no allowed to take a European slot regardless of where they finished in the league - again say for next 3 years

Time for the SPL clubs to grow some balls and take collective advantage

It doesn't.

[Abbeyhill41]

It would be great to have more human stories behind the financial crisis like this one.

Perhaps we should be giving away free rope in the Hibs shop.....

[CropleyWasGod]

lol, of course. Sorry any monies raised over the initial £18m he used to pay Lloyds would be 'his' with a new co Rangers. :aok:

...okay.

As someone else said... somewhere in the many threads.....a lot hinges on the values of Ibrox and Murray Park.

More than £18m?? Nae idea....

[PaulSmith]

...okay.

As someone else said... somewhere in the many threads.....a lot hinges on the values of Ibrox and Murray Park.

More than £18m?? Nae idea....

Also did he actually use his own cash to buy the club through Wavetower or did he use the Ticketus money? (this is secured by one of his other companies but if this were to tragically fail as well Ticketus would see £18m doon the swanny?!)

[Twa Cairpets]

If Whyte mortgaged the ST for 4 years to raise the money to pay Lloyds (which I think is broadly right but may be entirely wrong), and this money is secured against another of Whytes companies, then am I right in thinking that Rangers will make no money from the sale of ST's for the next 4 years? If this is the case then NewHun Co will effectively have no money from this source for this time period, which even if they start with a clean slate means they're still in the deep keech.

Please feel free to point out where I'm hopelessly confused on this.

[CropleyWasGod]

Also did he actually use his own cash to buy the club through Wavetower or did he use the Ticketus money? (this is secured by one of his other companies but if this were to tragically fail as well Ticketus would see £18m doon the swanny?!)

The Ticketus money belongs to Rangers, and should have gone to them. If he used that to fund his purchase, then his debt is (depending on the amount) partly or fully wiped out.

For their part, Ticketus.... is their debt secured? I thought I read that it was secured against future season ticket sales. If it is, they then have first dibs in an administration. If not, then their debt goes into the pot with everybody else.

[Capt Mainwaring]

It doesn't.

Let's hope for full Liquidation then!

[Lofarl]

Saw this gem on the raingurz forum

I'll be there.

I'll have no ticket (probably), no cash to buy one, and I'll have to travel 3 hours to get there.

But I'll be singing from outside the stadium if I have to, to show my support for this club.

Thats called being a drunk skint jakey, you drunk skint jakey.

[PaulSmith]

GrandmasterSuck from FF forum himself now on stv

[Cropley10]

Nope. They have to get the agreement of 75% of Creditors (by value) before they can do this. HMRC's policy is not to agree to such arrangements, so that scenario isn't likely to happen.

So a pre-pack liquidation - shift it all over and start again. Bargaining on the SPL letting them?


If he does that, HMRC will get a liquidator appointed, and he/she will recover those assets. That's a big no-no in insolvencies.

Nothing to do with the SPL, just the law.

But can he pre-pack?


This article from SoS explains all the possible consequences.....

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/sport/why_tax_case_casts_long_shadow_over_rangers_and_be yond_1_2112897


If Hibs went in to administration today it would be embarrassing in a business sense but I would have absolutely no fear of us going out of business. Administration is a cheats charter, a situation used by businesses sometime almost as a business tool. Rangers aren't ****ed their creditors are.

:agree:


I don't understand all the glee.

Huns are about to become debt free in return for accepting 2nd place in the league this year.

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick again?

No don't think you have - on the basis that the SPL let them come straight back in.


If they lose the HMRC case, Administration will not save them. They will be liquidated and have to start all over again with applications to the league. Ibrox will become public property (probably owned by HMRC - i.e. you and me - so we could in theory go for a kick about on a weekday :greengrin

So they can't pre-pack? Shift the assets and start a newco?


Eh ? this isn't the SPL, SFA or TV panel they're dealing with ... it the HMRC. They'll squeeze them until the orange pips squeak :greengrin

So they come after the newco, post liquidation?


I have suspicions that Whyte is implementing a plan, a well thought out plan at that.

I think you might be right:greengrin


I have been trying to follow the Rangers recent financial woes but I am confused. As I understood it Whyte is now the major creditor, even though he appears to have paid off the bank (who were the biggest creditor) with season ticket "futures". If the tax bill comes in and they go into liquidation, the HMRC don't have first dibs- as one would assume- but Mr Whyte. In his position a less honourable man might welcome that outcome as now he could trouser any mullah that can be realised by sale of the assets i.e. Ibrox and environs, Murray Park etc. And since he paid nothing for the club and bought the debt with the clubs own future income, anything he gets is pure profit.

Administration, I would have thought, could scupper this perfect scam.

Where have I gone wrong here?

I don't think you have. He leveraged the buy out and paid a quid. He isn't going to sell the assets he plans to emerge at the other side debt free and with all the assets.

There is absolutely no room for any glee or rejoicing whatsoever. Rangers are about to pull off the biggest con in football.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't think you have. He leveraged the buy out and paid a quid. He isn't going to sell the assets he plans to emerge at the other side debt free and with all the assets.

There is absolutely no room for any glee or rejoicing whatsoever. Rangers are about to pull off the biggest con in football.

You are forgetting that he paid £18,000,001.

[Cropley10]

You are forgetting that he paid £18,000,001.

And who walks off with Ticketus' money? Do you think he might have leveraged the buy-out using them?

Maybe they don't have the right security?

[CropleyWasGod]

And who walks off with Ticketus' money? Do you think he might have leveraged the buy-out using them?

Maybe they don't have the right security?

See my earlier post on this (think it's on this page :greengrin

[grunt]

Pat Nevin interviewed on Newsnight Scotland about Rangers.
Was he being interviewed in the car park at Easter Road?

[SonOfTortolano]

Does anyone think what Whyte is doing for Rangers Petrie did for Hibs?

BTW, I could not give a toss about Rangers....

[R'Albin]

Sorry if already posted, but:

:rotflmao:





http://i.imgur.com/PbMYI.jpg

:faf:

[CropleyWasGod]

Does anyone think what Whyte is doing for Rangers Petrie did for Hibs?

BTW, I could not give a toss about Rangers....

It's more like Whyte doing for Rangers what Romanov...etc etc....:na na:

[SonOfTortolano]

It's more like Whyte doing for Rangers what Romanov...etc etc....:na na:

Let's hope so.....

[Kaiser1962]

...okay.

As someone else said... somewhere in the many threads.....a lot hinges on the values of Ibrox and Murray Park.

More than £18m?? Nae idea....

At the moment the HMRC "debt" is not even in play is it? It may come into play in the near future but, at the moment, the administration process (and any CVA) will only deal with the debts currently on the books will it not?

[Haymaker]

At the moment the HMRC "debt" is not even in play is it? It may come into play in the near future but, at the moment, the administration process (and any CVA) will only deal with the debts currently on the books will it not?


Thats how I see it... the HMRC money isnt debt yet because it is being contested in the courts as to whether or not they owe it - Rangers say naw, Her Maj says aye.

Going into administration before the case is settled would just mean their current debts surely?

I dunno, its all too confusing to me!

[Newry Hibs]

Thats how I see it... the HMRC money isnt debt yet because it is being contested in the courts as to whether or not they owe it - Rangers say naw, Her Maj says aye.

Going into administration before the case is settled would just mean their current debts surely?

I dunno, its all too confusing to me!

Listening to the Pompey situation - it said they are going to the High Court to apply for administration - I presume RFC need to also apply. I would like to think that it could be refused or HMRC may object or at least have their two pennies worth (or £49m) considered.

[macca70]

At the moment the HMRC "debt" is not even in play is it? It may come into play in the near future but, at the moment, the administration process (and any CVA) will only deal with the debts currently on the books will it not?

I think this is whytes plan.

He can now say to HMRC that as they are now entering into admin, when HMRC win the court case, it's unlikely HMRC will get the full amount.

Rangers will try to make them an offer now for a much reduced amount before the 10 days are up, try and come to an out of court settlement for a fraction of the full amount.

Once they settle out of court for a lesser amount before 10 days, Rangers then pull the plug on the adminastration.

They then have a much discounted HMRC payment and don't have to follow through with the adminastration.

I reckon it all depends on HMRC, they should be acting on behalf of the Public and doing there best to get what they can.

When HMRC win and already knocked back an out of court settlement, Rangers will already be in adminastration and they'll probably not get the full amount due.

Rangers are attempting to blackmail HMRC by saying take the lesser amount now, if you don't, we go ahead with the adminastration and you don't get the full amount when you win anyway.

[alfie]

I think this is whytes plan.

He can now say to HMRC that as they are now entering into admin, when HMRC win the court case, it's unlikely HMRC will get the full amount.

Rangers will try to make them an offer now for a much reduced amount before the 10 days are up, try and come to an out of court settlement for a fraction of the full amount.

Once they settle out of court for a lesser amount before 10 days, Rangers then pull the plug on the adminastration.

They then have a much discounted HMRC payment and don't have to follow through with the adminastration.

I reckon it all depends on HMRC, they should be acting on behalf of the Public and doing there best to get what they can.

When HMRC win and already knocked back an out of court settlement, Rangers will already be in adminastration and they'll probably not get the full amount due.

Rangers are attempting to blackmail HMRC by saying take the lesser amount now, if you don't, we go ahead with the adminastration and you don't get the full amount when you win anyway.

If HMRC win the case and ask for their money and RFC cant pay, cant the HMRC just call for them to be liquidated? Like they do all the time to HoMFC? :confused:

[Ozyhibby]

I think this is whytes plan.

He can now say to HMRC that as they are now entering into admin, when HMRC win the court case, it's unlikely HMRC will get the full amount.

Rangers will try to make them an offer now for a much reduced amount before the 10 days are up, try and come to an out of court settlement for a fraction of the full amount.

Once they settle out of court for a lesser amount before 10 days, Rangers then pull the plug on the adminastration.

They then have a much discounted HMRC payment and don't have to follow through with the adminastration.

I reckon it all depends on HMRC, they should be acting on behalf of the Public and doing there best to get what they can.

When HMRC win and already knocked back an out of court settlement, Rangers will already be in adminastration and they'll probably not get the full amount due.

Rangers are attempting to blackmail HMRC by saying take the lesser amount now, if you don't, we go ahead with the adminastration and you don't get the full amount when you win anyway.

The problem with this strategy is that HMRC's hand are tied. They can't go accepting pence in the pound deals without setting a precedent they can't afford to set. It's like trying to persuade a blackjack dealer to twist on 18 on his own hand. He is not allowed to do it. It's the rules.

[Caversham Green]

So a pre-pack liquidation - shift it all over and start again. Bargaining on the SPL letting them?



But can he pre-pack?





:agree:



No don't think you have - on the basis that the SPL let them come straight back in.



So they can't pre-pack? Shift the assets and start a newco?



So they come after the newco, post liquidation?



I think you might be right:greengrin



I don't think you have. He leveraged the buy out and paid a quid. He isn't going to sell the assets he plans to emerge at the other side debt free and with all the assets.

There is absolutely no room for any glee or rejoicing whatsoever. Rangers are about to pull off the biggest con in football.

I think a version of pre-pack administration is the route they are likely to take. There are some obstacles, but none seem insurmountable to me.

Financially the IP is duty-bound to get the best possible price from Newhun for the assets of Oldhun. That is all subjective, but usefully their accounts value freehold property at a "recoverable amount" of £112m. That would cover pretty much all of their debts, and HMRC would be justified in questioning why that amount isn't recovered by the administrator. Sadly, there are plenty of legitimate answers to that. Newhun however, would still have to find a fair chunk of cash to buy those assets.

On the footballing front Newhun would have neither a UEFA licence nor membership of the SPL (as I understand it the single share is non-transferable) which would mean no European football for the next three years and a requirement for the other clubs to vote for their membership. The UEFA thing could be remedied by Newhun actually being an existing club (as in Airdrie/Clydebank), the SPL membership could see a serious split between clubs and their fans, since I imagine the majority of clubs would vote for, while most fans would almost certainly be against. I could see Celtc fans in particular mounting a campaign, and it's one time I would back them all the way.

[Haymaker]

I think a version of pre-pack administration is the route they are likely to take. There are some obstacles, but none seem insurmountable to me.

Financially the IP is duty-bound to get the best possible price from Newhun for the assets of Oldhun. That is all subjective, but usefully their accounts value freehold property at a "recoverable amount" of £112m. That would cover pretty much all of their debts, and HMRC would be justified in questioning why that amount isn't recovered by the administrator. Sadly, there are plenty of legitimate answers to that. Newhun however, would still have to find a fair chunk of cash to buy those assets.

On the footballing front Newhun would have neither a UEFA licence nor membership of the SPL (as I understand it the single share is non-transferable) which would mean no European football for the next three years and a requirement for the other clubs to vote for their membership. The UEFA thing could be remedied by Newhun actually being an existing club (as in Airdrie/Clydebank), the SPL membership could see a serious split between clubs and their fans, since I imagine the majority of clubs would vote for, while most fans would almost certainly be against. I could see Celtc fans in particular mounting a campaign, and it's one time I would back them all the way.

With out a doubt. Probably already writing to their board...

[YehButNoBut]

Looks to me like Rangers are doing this purely to force HMRC to reduce their tax bill or get next to hee haw.

So Rangers are trying to cheat the country out of the money it's due and why should they get away with it when others have paid in full, cheating barstewards. :fuming::furious:

[Steve20]

Looks to me like Rangers are doing this purely to force HMRC to reduce their tax bill or get next to hee haw.

So Rangers are trying to cheat the country out of the money it's due and why should they get away with it when others have paid in full, cheating barstewards. :fuming::furious:

Surely any club in big debt could do this then? Is it really as simple as go into administration and they get away with not paying the full tax bill?

[mjhibby]

SSN suggesting that Huns FC going into Adnim now to deny us law-abiding taxpayers from first creditor rights. Whyte would get first bite.

I really hope the HMRC go gunning for the Huns and pursure them to the grave :green grin Close that odious institution and remove the smell that has hung over Scottish football and society for decades :greengrin

Whyte certainly seems to know what he is doing and like mad vlad has pulled the wool over the gers fans eyes and manouvered himself into a situation in where it seems he used their money to buy the club and yet he will be the main beneficiary if they go into administration.It sticks in my throat how anybody has any sympathy for them and hertz and well and dundee before them.They have spent beyond their means for years and now he thinks lets go into admin,write off a league title they werent going to win anyway and them come back with far less debt then no doubt they will invest in the team.So we now have well in 3rd having sacked so many players and staff due to boyle spending so much money and having wiped off £11m debt at a stroke and have come back stronger than ever.Now rangers will look to do the same and no doubt the mad one is looking on with interest the only difference with hertz is that he is the one owed the money.
Clubs like celtic and ourselves have looked after the pennies and while i dislike both of the infirm equally at least the leasser greens are run properly.The only good thing that may come out of this is hertz not getting the wallace money owed and put them in ever more brown stuff.Feel sorry for the other clubs owed money but surely gate money has to be ring fenced to other clubs as they cant get away with taking in the gate money and not paying utd.As usual the spl will no doubt bend over backwards to help rangers and we will see the worst of scottish football in the next few months.Sad times for scottish football when those that waste the most money still profit and small businessmen get shafted by them.sums up modern life does it not.

[Caversham Green]

Surely any club in big debt could do this then? Is it really as simple as go into administration and they get away with not paying the full tax bill?

It's debatable whether the £50m debt is officially due yet since the tribunal's findings are not known. This administration could be seen as an attempt to pre-empt the debt, in which case it would not fall under the administrator's jurisdiction and a pre-pack as suggested above would potentially avoid it completely.

If this is the case, expect a robust response from HMRC.

[hibs0666]

The sale agreement between Murray and Whyte has been published on the rangers tax case website.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's debatable whether the £50m debt is officially due yet since the tribunal's findings are not known. This administration could be seen as an attempt to pre-empt the debt, in which case it would not fall under the administrator's jurisdiction and a pre-pack as suggested above would potentially avoid it completely.

If this is the case, expect a robust response from HMRC.

THis is the bit that confuses me, Cav. If the pre-pack takes place before the HMRC debt is established, would HMRC challenge it (or the coming-out of it) in Court? Is that what happened at Portsmouth, the first time?

[TornadoHibby]

Surely any club in big debt could do this then? Is it really as simple as go into administration and they get away with not paying the full tax bill?

Not really as it critically depends upon who has the debt to the (insolvent) company and what security the creditor(s) hold in respect of that debt and that in relation to the priority of theirs and other creditors' debts in relation to their respective debts! :wink:

On the face of it, in this case, it looks like the principal (first priority) debt due here is due to the owner or one (or more) of his companies and that may be why it appears that administration will enable the club assets to be retained within a new vehicle owned by the current owner with the pre administration liabilities being left in the old vehicle where they arose and for RFC (under the new vehicle) to "continue" to operate in the SPL (assuming they get the dispensations that have been highlighted in this and other threads as if it is a right). :agree:

[Caversham Green]

THis is the bit that confuses me, Cav. If the pre-pack takes place before the HMRC debt is established, would HMRC challenge it (or the coming-out of it) in Court? Is that what happened at Portsmouth, the first time?

I think HMRC can oppose the granting of an administration order - pretty sure they tried but failed with Pompey and they also unsuccessfully opposed the appointment of the specific IP who eventually acted. I would imagine they have stronger grounds this time, given the high profile the case has received and the reported amount of the contested debt.

[Smidge]

It's debatable whether the £50m debt is officially due yet since the tribunal's findings are not known. This administration could be seen as an attempt to pre-empt the debt, in which case it would not fall under the administrator's jurisdiction and a pre-pack as suggested above would potentially avoid it completely.

If this is the case, expect a robust response from HMRC.


I might be wrong, and my source for this is the excellent rangerstaxcase.com, but the c£50m debt to HMRC has already been assessed and established. They have served a demand for that amount - being tax due and interest. The First Tier Tribunal is Rangers' first attempt to appeal that demand on the basis that the scheme is legitimate within the legislation that applied at the time. The FTT will then rule on that appeal and potentially assess a further penalty on top of the c£50m - which is where, I think, Craig Whyte gets the potential total liability of £75m.

For all intents and purposes, HMRC will strongly argue that this can be taken into account when Rangers are trying to get a CVA agreed and their standard policy is not to agree. They might even be in a position to object to administration and, in fact, could potentially persuade a court to proceed straight to liquidation. In that circumstance, Rangers' SPL membership could effectively be put up for sale by the IP, which is where a Newco Huns may come into the picture, the only problem being that they wouldn't necessarily have a stadium to play in!

If there is any hint that HMRC could be potentially be excluded from the process, then I would expect a protracted legal battle to take place. This would not provide the certainty that Whyte is clearly pleading for and I wouldn't expect HMRC or the courts to take much notice of the 31st March deadline to have their financial affairs in order.

[GloryGlory]

Listening to the Pompey situation - it said they are going to the High Court to apply for administration - I presume RFC need to also apply. I would like to think that it could be refused or HMRC may object or at least have their two pennies worth (or £49m) considered.

Not by any means an expert, but if Whyte is pre-empting the tax bill by trying to shield whatever assets Rangers have (and they are surely considerable - Ibrox and Murray Park not least), then surely HMRC have a case to put to Court that the administration is purely a ploy to prevent the collection of tax due.

It seems that Whyte has paid £1 for the club and may yet walk away with £Ms as secured creditor, while depriving the public purse of its due (as well as other smaller creditors having to accept either nothing or at best peanuts). Meanwhile New Gers Ltd gets resurrected under new ownership with assets mostly intact and debt free to carry on as if nothing happened.

What a bunch of shysters if that is what transpires!

Any new club should be relegated to the juniors, with a 50 point handicap for the next 10 seasons!!!! :greengrin

[Caversham Green]

I might be wrong, and my source for this is the excellent rangerstaxcase.com, but the c£50m debt to HMRC has already been assessed and established. They have served a demand for that amount - being tax due and interest. The First Tier Tribunal is Rangers' first attempt to appeal that demand on the basis that the scheme is legitimate within the legislation that applied at the time. The FTT will then rule on that appeal and potentially assess a further penalty on top of the c£50m - which is where, I think, Craig Whyte gets the potential total liability of £75m.

For all intents and purposes, HMRC will strongly argue that this can be taken into account when Rangers are trying to get a CVA agreed and their standard policy is not to agree. They might even be in a position to object to administration and, in fact, could potentially persuade a court to proceed straight to liquidation. In that circumstance, Rangers' SPL membership could effectively be put up for sale by the IP, which is where a Newco Huns may come into the picture, the only problem being that they wouldn't necessarily have a stadium to play in!

If there is any hint that HMRC could be potentially be excluded from the process, then I would expect a protracted legal battle to take place. This would not provide the certainty that Whyte is clearly pleading for and I wouldn't expect HMRC or the courts to take much notice of the 31st March deadline to have their financial affairs in order.

If you're right (and I think you probably are) that strengthens HMRC's case immeasurably but RFC may be hanging on to the argument that the debt is still in dispute (hence the appeal).

Re the stadium, if Newhun can afford to pay more than a developer then they will get it. The £112m valuation is for current use and the market of large Glasgow-based football clubs in need of a stadium is not huge. I do wonder if Whyte really is a front man and his mission was to get rid of the debt and investigation problems before the real buyer steps up to save the day....

I didn't think I'd ever say this, but I'd love HMRC to win their case.

[Gatecrasher]

I like how they are sayig its Scottish Football in Crisis on the Radio when 11 out of the 12 top flight clubs fans are pissing themselves :greengrin

[MacBean]

If you're right (and I think you probably are) that strengthens HMRC's case immeasurably but RFC may be hanging on to the argument that the debt is still in dispute (hence the appeal).

Re the stadium, if Newhun can afford to pay more than a developer then they will get it. The £112m valuation is for current use and the market of large Glasgow-based football clubs in need of a stadium is not huge. I do wonder if Whyte really is a front man and his mission was to get rid of the debt and investigation problems before the real buyer steps up to save the day....

I didn't think I'd ever say this, but I'd love HMRC to win their case.

Thats the stumbling block. The main stand at Ibrox is a registered building therefore any developer or would be buyer would need include a stand in their development

[marinello59]

Thats the stumbling block. The main stand at Ibrox is a registered building therefore any developer or would be buyer would need include a stand in their development

Is it the entire stand or just the front of it that is listed?

[Smidge]

Is it the entire stand or just the front of it that is listed?

I think it's just the stand, in which case, any developer would be having a close look at what Arsenal did at Highbury :-)

Of course, the demand for deluxe apartments is a little bit higher in North London than Govan....

[Caversham Green]

Thats the stumbling block. The main stand at Ibrox is a registered building therefore any developer or would be buyer would need include a stand in their development

It's a stumbling block for a developer because they would have to incorporate the building into any proposed development. That would reduce the amount they would be willing to pay, which is actually beneficial to a buyer proposing to use the place as a football stadium since the offer they have to beat becomes lower.

[cabbageandribs1875]

how the **** can a business take on a new employee (daniel cousin) and pay him between 5-7K/week, then apply for administration a couple of days later :confused: surely a director(or whoever sanctioned said purchase) has to be held accountable for this ? or do the huns not have any directors left nowadays due to being booted out by the crooked dwarf

[GreenCastle]

I like how they are sayig its Scottish Football in Crisis on the Radio when 11 out of the 12 top flight clubs fans are pissing themselves :greengrin

:agree::thumbsup:

[NorthNorfolkHFC]

Derek Johnstone just on SSN, decent hun to be honest.
He agreed that rangers cheated their way to glory and that all SPL clubs would say rangers are getting what they deserved!

[jgl07]

I think a version of pre-pack administration is the route they are likely to take. There are some obstacles, but none seem insurmountable to me.

Financially the IP is duty-bound to get the best possible price from Newhun for the assets of Oldhun. That is all subjective, but usefully their accounts value freehold property at a "recoverable amount" of £112m. That would cover pretty much all of their debts, and HMRC would be justified in questioning why that amount isn't recovered by the administrator. Sadly, there are plenty of legitimate answers to that. Newhun however, would still have to find a fair chunk of cash to buy those assets.

On the footballing front Newhun would have neither a UEFA licence nor membership of the SPL (as I understand it the single share is non-transferable) which would mean no European football for the next three years and a requirement for the other clubs to vote for their membership. The UEFA thing could be remedied by Newhun actually being an existing club (as in Airdrie/Clydebank), the SPL membership could see a serious split between clubs and their fans, since I imagine the majority of clubs would vote for, while most fans would almost certainly be against. I could see Celtc fans in particular mounting a campaign, and it's one time I would back them all the way.

There were suggestions in the Herald today along the lines of "Scottish Football needs Rangers" and hence they (or a Pheonix) would be readmitted to the SPL after being liquidated.

This would be a very dangerous course of action for SPL clubs to take as the resentment caused within the support could cause mass boycotts. It will be bad enough if they are readmitted to the SFL but if they come straight back there would be open warfare and the SPL would lose what remains of its credibility.

The fiasco of the failed attempt to go back to a 10-team SPL caused enough bad feeling. This would top that by far. The clubs need to be reminded of this forcefully.

[marinello59]

Derek Johnstone just on SSN, decent hun to be honest.
He agreed that rangers cheated their way to glory and that all SPL clubs would say rangers are getting what they deserved!

He gave a very balanced assessment of things as he saw it. Surprised me to be honest.

[GloryGlory]

Thats the stumbling block. The main stand at Ibrox is a registered building therefore any developer or would be buyer would need include a stand in their development

The developers of the old Arsenal Stadium managed just fine! :greengrin

http://www.highburysquare.com/

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

After the dust has settled on this a little bit and the initial euphoria of the situation has died down, its hard to believe that Whyte hasn't come into this with his eyes wide open.
Unfortunately, I would imagine he has as Baldrick of Blackadder fame was fond of saying "A cunning plan", I wouldnae be surprised to see him walk away from this with a right few quid after tidying up the mess and selling on to whoever he has been acting as a frontman for.

[marinello59]

After the dust has settled on this a little bit and the initial euphoria of the situation has died down, its hard to believe that Whyte hasn't come into this with his eyes wide open.
Unfortunately, I would imagine he has as Baldrick of Blackadder fame was fond of saying "A cunning plan", I wouldnae be surprised to see him walk away from this with a right few quid after tidying up the mess and selling on to whoever he has been acting as a frontman for.

Whyte is in the business of making a profit from basket case firms. He won't be a loser and in the long term Rangers won't be either. The rest of us will pick up the bill for this mess.

[MacBean]

The developers of the old Arsenal Stadium managed just fine! :greengrin

http://www.highburysquare.com/

That is awesome!!! :top marks

[Andy74]

They do believe this would shield them from the HMRC demand.

It's a real fault in the whole system where they can come out the other end and spend money again that is due to the tax payer.

The whole of the UK went a bit mental when a bank Chief Exec got offered less than a million for doing what he was asked to do. Will there be a similar amount of time spent on something far more damaging to the tax payer?

[Spike Mandela]

how the **** can a business take on a new employee (daniel cousin) and pay him between 5-7K/week, then apply for administration a couple of days later :confused: surely a director(or whoever sanctioned said purchase) has to be held accountable for this ? or do the huns not have any directors left nowadays due to being booted out by the crooked dwarf

Surely people are waking up to the fact that ALL sectors of big business, banking, politics, establishment and indeed football are morally bankrupt. Their efforts and money are all safeguarded by dodges and loopholes cleverly created over the years and made perfectly legal. With the aid of their fellow gaurdians of corruption the media and the slavish ignorant masses Rangers' phoenix like rise from tha ashes will be hailed as good business by whichever 'white knight' turns up to join the gravy train.

Cynical, moi?:greengrin

[alfie]

That is awesome!!! :top marks

Indeed it is, unfortunately I cant see the same business opportunity for Ibrox. I'm sure Phil Spencer could try calling it 'an up and coming area' but no building developer is going to fall for it in the current economic climate. Which, as has already been stated means that the phoenix company/new investor could pick it up for less than the value that it is currently claimed. In a way it means that HMRC could end up not getting all the money due, and the phoenix company pays less in total terms than it would if it didnt go down this route. They will still be massively out of pocket, but not to the extent of £50-75M that they could be facing now. I wouldn't be surprised if Whyte is not part of the phoenix company, he will have taken his profit from the Ticketus deal, minus the money paid the Lloyds and moved on to another opporchancity!

[YehButNoBut]

Breaking News....................................seemingly

HMRC moves to put Rangers into administration

HM Revenue and Customs have lodged an application to put Rangers into administration.The club had lodged a notice of intent to appoint an administrator.
However, on Tuesday HMRC lodged an order with the Court of Session in Edinburgh calling for the court to appoint an administrator.
It will be heard before a judge at midday and HMRC are due to make a statement afterwards.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/297509-hmrc-moves-to-put-rangers-into-administration/

[Haymaker]

Breaking News....................................seemingly

HMRC moves to put Rangers into administration

HM Revenue and Customs have lodged an application to put Rangers into administration.The club had lodged a notice of intent to appoint an administrator.
However, on Tuesday HMRC lodged an order with the Court of Session in Edinburgh calling for the court to appoint an administrator.
It will be heard before a judge at midday and HMRC are due to make a statement afterwards.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/297509-hmrc-moves-to-put-rangers-into-administration/


So... this makes what difference?

[stokesmessiah]

Breaking News....................................seemingly

HMRC moves to put Rangers into administration

HM Revenue and Customs have lodged an application to put Rangers into administration.The club had lodged a notice of intent to appoint an administrator.
However, on Tuesday HMRC lodged an order with the Court of Session in Edinburgh calling for the court to appoint an administrator.
It will be heard before a judge at midday and HMRC are due to make a statement afterwards.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/297509-hmrc-moves-to-put-rangers-into-administration/

Not sure what difference if any this makes ?

[YehButNoBut]

Not sure either but I would imagine it would benefit HMRC rather than Rangers. :dunno:

[Haymaker]

Not sure either but I would imagine it would benefit HMRC rather than Rangers. :dunno:

I am guessing that if they put themselves in admin, they can organise and pick an administrator (who might be kinder?)

By HMRC forcing them into it then it is court appointed Admin?

[surreyhibbie]

Not sure either but I would imagine it would benefit HMRC rather than Rangers. :dunno:

Has to be a bad thing for the Hun, taken out of their hands now. HMRC running the show.

:greengrin

[Hibby Hippy]

Not sure what difference if any this makes ?

I think it means that an administrator would be appointed by the court instead of one of craig whytes choosing.

[Andy74]

Not sure either but I would imagine it would benefit HMRC rather than Rangers. :dunno:

An administrator should be independent. Dont really know. I see Whyte was talking about appointing a restructuring firm.

I'd think if HMRC had their choice they would be looking for sales of anything that could be sold first and foremost.

[marinello59]

I think it means that an administrator would be appointed by the court instead of one of craig whytes choosing.

Craig Whyte was going to appoint Duff and Phelps, the same firm that advised Whyte on the takeover. I would guess they would have been much more kindly disposed to Whyte and Rangers than a court appointed administrator will be.

[lapsedhibee]

The developers of the old Arsenal Stadium managed just fine! :greengrin

http://www.highburysquare.com/

And the Huns' site would have a marketing advantage over Highbury in that it has historically had "Castle" in its name.

Would a concierge really be necessary in Govan? :hmmm:

[Haymaker]

Where's Caversham when you need him?! :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Where's Caversham when you need him?! :greengrin

Like me, he is probably waiting for HMRC's statement after the hearing.

IMO, this is about control of the process.

Remember that RFC have filed notice of their INTENT to go into administration. It appears that HMRC are trying to make it happen NOW.

It will be clearer later today. Maybe:greengrin

[magpie1892]

Apologies if already posted, but this will swing it the huns' way for sure:

http://www.change.org/petitions/her-majestys-revenue-and-customs-drop-their-legal-action-against-rangers-fc-regarding-the-clubs-ebt

[green&left]

A bloggers view on Administration and CVA http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/rangers-administration-cva-nae-chance/

[Haymaker]

Like me, he is probably waiting for HMRC's statement after the hearing.

IMO, this is about control of the process.

Remember that RFC have filed notice of their INTENT to go into administration. It appears that HMRC are trying to make it happen NOW.

It will be clearer later today. Maybe:greengrin

Cool, cheers CWG. Am I right in saying that by being forced into admin they cant pick their own? I got the feeling from RFC speech that is what they intended?

Yesterday and today have been an education!

[tamig]

Apologies if already posted, but this will swing it the huns' way for sure:

http://www.change.org/petitions/her-majestys-revenue-and-customs-drop-their-legal-action-against-rangers-fc-regarding-the-clubs-ebt

A Hun begging letter. Aye, that'll do it all right!

[CropleyWasGod]

Cool, cheers CWG. Am I right in saying that by being forced into admin they cant pick their own? I got the feeling from RFC speech that is what they intended?

Yesterday and today have been an education!

Yeah... the Court will appoint someone. Chances are HMRC have already identified them.

[Haymaker]

Yeah... the Court will appoint someone. Chances are HMRC have already identified them.

This sounds good :agree:

[PaulSmith]

Court 7 at court of session in edinburgh at 12 bells will decide if Rangers exist or put into liquidation.

That's how serious I see this now.

[green glory]

Basically HMRC are trying to put them in administration before Craig Whyte is able to. That being the case if administrators other than those appointed by Whyte are appointed, his pre-packed administration plan could be screwed. The process will be more transparent and would likely result in the taxpayer re-couping as much as is possible.

Looks like HMRC is going to skull-***** them into oblivion. :cb mmmm yes.

[Smidge]

I think this is a clear sign from HMRC to Craig Whyte that they believe they hold all the aces here and won't be dicked around. If CW thought yesterday's move was a good tactical ploy to bring HMRC to the negotiating table, he is clearly wrong. The gamble that Rangers' self-appointment of an administrator is more likely to lead to a phoenix club could be CW's biggest mistake yet. A court-appointed administrator is far more likely to judge that liquidation is the best means by which the return to creditors and shareholders can be maximised.

[Haymaker]

Looks like HMRC is going to skull-***** them into oblivion. :cb mmmm yes.

:thumbsup:
:top marks

[cabbageandribs1875]

Basically HMRC are trying to put them in administration before Craig Whyte is able to. That being the case if administrators other than those appointed by Whyte are appointed, his pre-packed administration plan could be screwed. The process will be more transparent and would likely result in the taxpayer re-couping as much as is possible.

Looks like HMRC is going to skull-***** them into oblivion. :cb mmmm yes.



i imagine craig whyte will have already planned for both scenarios, i hope this little fly gets a serious swatting :agree: but i'm still convinced he knows exactly what he's doing

[Pretty Boy]

Ha ****ing Ha.

Bye huns.

[Spike Mandela]

Court 7 at court of session in edinburgh at 12 bells will decide if Rangers exist or put into liquidation.

That's how serious I see this now.

It's quite exciting, almost like transfer deadline day thread.:wink::hibees

[ardecos]

It's possible Craig Whyte may not get his preferred creditor status:

http://leggoland2.blogspot.com/

[stokesmessiah]

This quote from the bears den is hilarious. I have blanked out the last word but i am sure you can guess.

"As a taxpayer, I'm not happy with the way HMRC are willing to **** about with my money.

As a Rangers fan, I despise the c***'s"

[Hibstrooper]

This quote from the bears den is hilarious. I have blanked out the last word but i am sure you can guess.

"As a taxpayer, I'm not happy with the way HMRC are willing to **** about with my money.

As a Rangers fan, I despise the c***'s"




Celt's :agree:

[TornadoHibby]

Yeah... the Court will appoint someone. Chances are HMRC have already identified them.

....and held a meeting with them to examine possible strategies for the administration and as to whether the "chosen" administrator would accept the appointment! :cb

[CropleyWasGod]

It's possible Craig Whyte may not get his preferred creditor status:

http://leggoland2.blogspot.com/

He will only get it if he is actually owed the £18m by RFC. That blog suggests that he isn't. Indeed, he may owe them £6m.

[Spike Mandela]

Oh happy days........

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/sport/hearts_could_lose_500_000_if_rangers_go_into_admin istration_1_2115642

[GloryGlory]

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/sport/hearts_could_lose_500_000_if_rangers_go_into_admin istration_1_2115642

Ha ha Hearts!

Nae luck!


Could be BOGOF on the Currants/Yams administration front!

:greengrin :flag: :na na:

[Haymaker]

Today has been brilliant!

[Dashing Bob S]

It's quite exciting, almost like transfer deadline day thread.:wink::hibees

It's better. With the transfer deadline you're not sure to get the players you want, but with this one you're going to get at least some kind of result the Huns/Yams don't want.

[proud_and_green]

If he does that, HMRC will get a liquidator appointed, and he/she will recover those assets. That's a big no-no in insolvencies.

Nothing to do with the SPL, just the law.

I reckon the whole thing about mortgaging the future seasons income is slightly dodgy and presumably HMRC will want to know what happened to the cash that generated and could presumably seek to recover it as again presumably RFC were technically insolvent at the time of the alienation of the asset.

[frazeHFC]

Apologies if already posted, but this will swing it the huns' way for sure:

http://www.change.org/petitions/her-majestys-revenue-and-customs-drop-their-legal-action-against-rangers-fc-regarding-the-clubs-ebt


In response, i bet i can get more people signing a petition called 'Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs: Let them die' :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

Oh happy days........

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/sport/hearts_could_lose_500_000_if_rangers_go_into_admin istration_1_2115642


i would seriously be scunnered if hertz got these payments :( mon the HRMC men

[GloryGlory]

I reckon the whole thing about mortgaging the future seasons income is slightly dodgy and presumably HMRC will want to know what happened to the cash that generated and could presumably seek to recover it as again presumably RFC were technically insolvent at the time of the alienation of the asset.

I thought this was used to pay off the Lloyds TSB debt? Effectively, Whyte used the fans' money to buy the club, as he paid a peppercorn £1 to Murray Group for the privilege.

[pogo]

Just been reported on Sky news about the latest moves from HMRC. Report was done from outside Ibrox, and I'm sure the reporter (James Mathews I think), was having trouble containing the odd smirk, and finished off with a 'very serious' face:greengrin

Must be very hard to find an unbiased voice one way or the other, but I'm loving it!!!!
:flag:

[Andy74]

i would seriously be scunnered if hertz got these payments :( mon the HRMC men

I bet that Hearts fans attitudes to debt and non payment of monies due is about to change dramatically.

They are already looking to get them charged by the SPL!

[Smidge]

I thought this was used to pay off the Lloyds TSB debt? Effectively, Whyte used the fans' money to buy the club, as he paid a peppercorn £1 to Murray Group for the privilege.

I think he has insisted that this is not the case. However, Whyte has a history of claiming something and it turning out to be the complete opposite. If it wasn't used to repay the bank, then he still hasn't provided any details of what was used. HMRC will definitely be interested in what happened to the cash if it wasn't used to repay the bank debt, as would an administrator in the event that it has mysteriously disappeared from Rangers' accounts.

[alfie]

Cracking cartoon in today's Herald.

A punter is looking up at the RFC badge on one of the stands at Ibrox.

The motto reads "Nae Readies" :greengrin

[robinp]

I bet that Hearts fans attitudes to debt and non payment of monies due is about to change dramatically.

They are already looking to get them charged by the SPL!

Pot Kettle Black comes to mind.......remember this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/h/heart_of_midlothian/7764721.stm

[Bad Martini]

I seem to recall joyously stating months ago it was a race to extinction for hertz and rangers.

I dont care which of them goes first. Imagine a world with neither? Can you imagine the plesant aura and deep joy this wid bring? Oyaa.

ENDOF

[CallumLaidlaw]

Court has taken a 10 minute break to instruct lawyers. News expected shortly. How exciting!!!

[Caversham Green]

Not much I can add to what CWGod and others have said. One point to make though, the administrator is an officer of the court not HMRC or Craig Whyte and he is expected to act in the best interests of the company, not the successful applicant for administration. I think HMRC have just said the legal equivalent of "Aye, right to that b*ll*cks".

Quite a few on here have said they thought there was a plan behind what Whyte was doing. Now if us humble Hobos can see that it's odd-on that the Revenue would have spotted it as well.

[hibs0666]

Court has taken a 10 minute break to instruct lawyers. News expected shortly. How exciting!!!

Is this to do with the huns, the wee huns or something else entirely? :wink:

[Sylar]

If they wind up our Club I'll seriously consider leaving this country so they never get another penny from me.

Taken from FF :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Taken from FF :greengrin

Well, that's a good start....:greengrin

[CallumLaidlaw]

Is this to do with the huns, the wee huns or something else entirely? :wink:

The huns

[Pretty Boy]

Taken from FF :greengrin

Only another few hundred thousand to go then!

[magpie1892]

Just been reported on Sky news about the latest moves from HMRC. Report was done from outside Ibrox, and I'm sure the reporter (James Mathews I think), was having trouble containing the odd smirk, and finished off with a 'very serious' face:greengrin

Must be very hard to find an unbiased voice one way or the other, but I'm loving it!!!!
:flag:

I know James a bit. He's a hibby.

[tamig]

Oh happy days........

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/sport/hearts_could_lose_500_000_if_rangers_go_into_admin istration_1_2115642

Some of the comment son that story are beyond belief. Some folk are oblivious to the reality of the situation.

[happiehibbie]

Has any noticed that mr whtye is a SECURED CREDITOR which means he got rangers for a pound raised money from Ticket us to pay of the bank 18 million and guess what he is the first to be paid even befor HMRC should they go into Administration so for his pound he will get £18 million return

in other words not a bad bit of Business

[ScottB]

It's amazing that they don't seem to realise that this is money that has, in effect, been stolen from them, the Rangers fans, both in terms of their season ticket money, and money that should have been available to government / local authorities to spend improving the dump that is Govan or wherever they happen to be. This isn't the big bad HMRC trying to shut down an innocent club, this is HMRC fighting for all of us to get a substantial amount of cash that WE are due.

Let them and any other club guilty of the same burn for it. Especially in these times, such wilful cheating of the taxpayer must be punished to the maximum.

[silverhibee]

It's possible Craig Whyte may not get his preferred creditor status:

http://leggoland2.blogspot.com/


Good reading


"Hibs kingpin Rod Petrie" :greengrin

Its amazing what the press dont report, celtc fans fighting amongst them selfs up in Inverness where one fan was slashed across the face with a knife over songs being sung about the IRA. :rolleyes:

And some folk want to have a sing song with this **** on Sunday.

[Hibby Bairn]

I wonder how many _________ (fill in blank with nurses, teachers, schools, hospitals, pot holes etc) £75m would pay for?

I fully expect the Glasgow press to start campaigning in this vein immediately so the taxpayer has surety that full value is extracted from the tax avoiders in Govan.There again maybe not.

Why is no Scottish journo interviewing the taxpayers alliance on this?

:cb

[bingo70]

Court has taken a 10 minute break to instruct lawyers. News expected shortly. How exciting!!!

Don't think there would be any 'exciting news' coming out today will there?

I'd have thought the exciting times would come after the administrator, whoever appoints them, gets a look at their books and makes a decision on their future, surely there won't be any real significant news today, other than the fact they will go in administration but we knew that was likely to happen yesterday.

BTW, not sure if everyone else is the same but the huns have completely dissapeared off my facebook page, nothing about them saying they will be ok, none ****ing themselves and none biting back, where have they all gone? they surely cannae be supporting someone else already can they?

[IndieHibby]

It's amazing that they don't seem to realise that this is money that has, in effect, been stolen from them, the Rangers fans, both in terms of their season ticket money, and money that should have been available to government / local authorities to spend improving the dump that is Govan or wherever they happen to be. This isn't the big bad HMRC trying to shut down an innocent club, this is HMRC fighting for all of us to get a substantial amount of cash that WE are due.

Let them and any other club guilty of the same burn for it. Especially in these times, such wilful cheating of the taxpayer must be punished to the maximum.

:agree: Well said. There are plenty innocent people with diminished services or no services at all, who would no doubt be livid if RFC were allowed to cheat them out of their basic needs in this way.

[Sylar]

According to one of the STV journalists, Court papers are on their way to appoint administrators:

Lawyer for #Rangers (https://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Rangers) told court paperwork on its way to appoint administrators. HMRC questioned the validity of this move.

[Sylar]

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/297531-rangers-appointing-administrators-today/

[GloryGlory]

According to one of the STV journalists, Court papers are on their way to appoint administrators:

Lawyer for #Rangers (https://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Rangers) told court paperwork on its way to appoint administrators. HMRC questioned the validity of this move.

This looks like Whyte trying to forestall HMRC by appointing his administrators now, instead of next week.

[TornadoHibby]

Don't think there would be any 'exciting news' coming out today will there?

I'd have thought the exciting times would come after the administrator, whoever appoints them, gets a look at their books and makes a decision on their future, surely there won't be any real significant news today, other than the fact they will go in administration but we knew that was likely to happen yesterday.

BTW, not sure if everyone else is the same but the huns have completely dissapeared off my facebook page, nothing about them saying they will be ok, none ****ing themselves and none biting back, where have they all gone? they surely cannae be supporting someone else already can they?

Can't imagine that all of that has not already been done, i.e. the establishing of the RFC financial position! :rolleyes:

[Haymaker]

... So... It's on! :thumbsup:

[Part/Time Supporter]

This looks like Whyte trying to forestall HMRC by appointing his administrators now, instead of next week.

HMRC's legal argument is they Rangers can't appoint an administrator for five days, ie after the period specified in yesterday's legal filing. The Huns will need a sympathetic judge...

[stokesmessiah]

Don't think there would be any 'exciting news' coming out today will there?

I'd have thought the exciting times would come after the administrator, whoever appoints them, gets a look at their books and makes a decision on their future, surely there won't be any real significant news today, other than the fact they will go in administration but we knew that was likely to happen yesterday.

BTW, not sure if everyone else is the same but the huns have completely dissapeared off my facebook page, nothing about them saying they will be ok, none ****ing themselves and none biting back, where have they all gone? they surely cannae be supporting someone else already can they?

I just posted a message on my FB saying exactly the same.....very quiet.

[TornadoHibby]

Has any noticed that mr whtye is a SECURED CREDITOR which means he got rangers for a pound raised money from Ticket us to pay of the bank 18 million and guess what he is the first to be paid even befor HMRC should they go into Administration so for his pound he will get £18 million return

in other words not a bad bit of Business

Whether he ends up as a preferred creditor will, amongst other matters including those of a "technical" nature, depend upon the actual circumstances of how the Lloyds loan was repaid and by whom and, if by CW or a company owned and controlled by him, whether the security to the lender for that advance to RFC to allow repayment of the Lloyds £18million was properly constituted, executed and registered! :cb

[GloryGlory]

HMRC's legal argument is they can't do this because they filed the papers yesterday giving them a five day window to negotiate with creditors. The Huns will need a sympathetic judge...

:agree: And as Whyte admitted on TV last night that Rangers cannot afford to pay the tax bill, I would think HMRC's counsel would be highlighting this to the judge (not to mention Whyte's previous as an unreliable witness and unfit company director). It would be a brave judge that took Rangers' side, because I would imagine HMRC would appeal immediately to the Inner House.

Looks like Whyte's last, desperate throw of the dice, IMO!

[CropleyWasGod]

Has any noticed that mr whtye is a SECURED CREDITOR which means he got rangers for a pound raised money from Ticket us to pay of the bank 18 million and guess what he is the first to be paid even befor HMRC should they go into Administration so for his pound he will get £18 million return

in other words not a bad bit of Business

No he won't.

He paid off the bank with £18m, and at that stage was a secured c reditor.

IF (and that's not clear yet) he used the Ticketus money, then he is no longer a creditor. Indeed, he owes RFC £6m.

[Hibby Bairn]

HMRC's legal argument is they Rangers can't appoint an administrator for five days, ie after the period specified in yesterday's legal filing. The Huns will need a sympathetic judge...

:rolleyes: which is very likely.

[cabbageandribs1875]

it appears sellick have just won the league today

[alfie]

So if it is proved the Ticketus deal was done prior to the purchase of RFC, that throws his whole secured creditor status out the windae?

[stokesmessiah]

it appears sellick have just won the league today

I think they won it the day they overtook a 15pt difference.

[Danderhall Hibs]

This quote from the bears den is hilarious. I have blanked out the last word but i am sure you can guess.

"As a taxpayer, I'm not happy with the way HMRC are willing to **** about with my money.

As a Rangers fan, I despise the c***'s"




Catholics?

[Seveno]

No he won't.

He paid off the bank with £18m, and at that stage was a secured c reditor.

IF (and that's not clear yet) he used the Ticketus money, then he is no longer a creditor. Indeed, he owes RFC £6m.

If that happened, it would be an even better result than the day that Ivan put 3 passed them ! :na na:

[MCameron]

Heard some chat on the radio this morning that suggested HMRC may accept a reduced settlement to reduce their risk as unsecured creditors. If this was to happen I (and many other law abiding tax payers - and probably some lesser greens too) would be furious as effectively we'd be getting shafted as a consequence of Rangers deciet.

Does anyone know whether there would be any means for a large enough protest group to force the HMRC to press for full repayment (I'm sure I heard that there is a means of gathering 100,000 signatures and getting a topic discussed in parliament). If that's true is this the opportunity for Football fans fed up of teams living beyond their means to buy success to force them into line?

[stokesmessiah]

Court is just resuming now.

[cabbageandribs1875]

HMRC's legal argument is they Rangers can't appoint an administrator for five days, ie after the period specified in yesterday's legal filing. The Huns will need a sympathetic judge...


and if he's not sympathetic he will then become a 'taig/tarrier/paedo/kiddie-fiddling kafflik by the hunnish filth

[grunt]

it appears sellick have just won the league todayI think it's a sad comment on the SPL that Rangers can potentially suffer a 10 point penalty and remain in the same league position.

[jgl07]

Heard some chat on the radio this morning that suggested HMRC may accept a reduced settlement to reduce their risk as unsecured creditors. If this was to happen I (and many other law abiding tax payers - and probably some lesser greens too) would be furious as effectively we'd be getting shafted as a consequence of Rangers deciet.

Does anyone know whether there would be any means for a large enough protest group to force the HMRC to press for full repayment (I'm sure I heard that there is a means of gathering 100,000 signatures and getting a topic discussed in parliament). If that's true is this the opportunity for Football fans fed up of teams living beyond their means to buy success to force them into line?

Not a hope in hell that HMRC will accept a reduced sum. They will go for liquidation even if they get zero money as a result.

They want a major scalp. And Rangers will be as big as they are likely to get. The liquidation of Rangers would send out a message to clubs elsewhere not to mess with HMRC.

[Spike Mandela]

And in other news.......

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/2012/02/14/tommy-sheridan-wins-first-round-in-battle-to-claim-200k-damages-from-defunct-news-of-the-world-86908-23748610/

What a day:cb

[cabbageandribs1875]

I think they won it the day they overtook a 15pt difference.


it's just official now though :)

[CallumLaidlaw]

Lawyer for #Rangers told court paperwork on its way to appoint administrators. HMRC questioned the validity of this move.

Case taken 20 min break for lawyers to get more instruction. #Rangers

HMRC said they were on way to hand in their petition yesterday when they found out #Rangers had handed in theirs.

HMRC then adapted their petition before handing in. #Rangers

Arguments on each side will start when case resumes at 1.30pm #Rangers

Roddy Dunlop, #Rangers lawyer, say they can appoint administrators because floating charge holder has approved it.

HMRC argued neither club nor directors were allowed to appoint administrators for five days. #Rangers

Rangers tell Court they will go into administration today - if they can appoint own administator. HMRC want their own.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I think it's a sad comment on the SPL that Rangers can potentially suffer a 10 point penalty and remain in the same league position.


something just not right :agree:

[Leithenhibby]

:rolleyes: which is very likely.


Really, and why would that be the case?? ... :rolleyes:

[cabbageandribs1875]

taken from swallow swallow


Roddy Dunlop QC, representing the Ibrox club, claimed that Rangers could appoint administrators as the floating charge holder, owner Craig Whyte, had approved it. HMRC has disputed this, claiming Rangers could not call in administrators for five working days from lodging their notice of intent to appoint insolvency experts.


Under the Insolvency Act 1986, companies have at least five and a maximum of ten working days in which to try and agree terms with creditors before appointing administrators.


Whether Rangers are allowed to appoint their own administrator, or one will be brought in after HMRC applied to the court remains to be seen and the court case will resume for legal argument at the Court of Session on Tuesday.


As a result of the move, the club have automatically been docked ten points in the SPL, leaving them 14 points behind Celtic in second place.

[stokesmessiah]

#Rangers (https://twitter.com/#!/search?q=%23Rangers) given until 3.30pm to appoint administrators. If they do HMRC's application will no longer stand.

[Spike Mandela]

And so it begins, the cheats start to wriggle out of their debt. HMRC shafted again.

[H18sry]

Rangers have been given until 3.30pm to appoint their own administrator or court will make appointment http://bit.ly/xVoFHP

[IWasThere2016]

They do believe this would shield them from the HMRC demand.

It's a real fault in the whole system where they can come out the other end and spend money again that is due to the tax payer.

The whole of the UK went a bit mental when a bank Chief Exec got offered less than a million for doing what he was asked to do. Will there be a similar amount of time spent on something far more damaging to the tax payer?

Did his bank not fail to meet lending targets?

[cabbageandribs1875]

#Rangers (https://twitter.com/#!/search?q=%23Rangers)given until 3.30pm to appoint administrators. If they do HMRC's application will no longer stand.i have a funny feeling they are sitting in a car outside the court at this very moment :wink:





a bit like the jumbo jeffries case 'i just happened to be in the club shop when i got the call' :greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

Funny feeling that "we" the taxpayers are about to be shafted big time by this disgrace of a so-called national institution.

[Spike Mandela]

i have a funny feeling they are sitting in a car outside the court at this very moment :wink:





a bit like the jumbo jeffries case 'i just happened to be in the club shop when i got the call' :greengrin

So basically, correct me if I'm wrong, but the court has just given Rangers two hours to make a phone call. Rough justice my arse:rolleyes:

[Hibby Bairn]

Good Twitter source for what is going on from inside the court @carasulieman (https://twitter.com/#!/carasulieman)

[MCameron]

Funny feeling that "we" the taxpayers are about to be shafted big time by this disgrace of a so-called national institution.

If that turns out to be the case "we" the Scottish football supporters need to act to force a change in the rules of our game to ensure teams are not able to cheat their way to success without having the sound financials in place to sustain this.

[SaudiHibby]

Think we may find that there is a 'grand master' plan at play here and that they will come out of this with limited damage. Shocking but he knows the system and is playing it to the letter. I am not getting too excited.

[Spike Mandela]

Wonder if they will use the Vlad defence if appointment is a few hours late:greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

If that turns out to be the case "we" the Scottish football supporters need to act to force a change in the rules of our game to ensure teams are not able to cheat their way to success without having the sound financials in place to sustain this.

Sounds great in theory but the ugly sisters run the show and IMO the SFA/SPL/SFL will bend over backwards to keep their cash cow happy.

Outrageous if they get away with this and yet another nail in the coffin of Scottish football.

[patlowe]

It will be sickening when it happens, but you can't help but feel Rangers are going to come out of this relatively unscathed. Their reputation will be in tatters and they will be skint, but survival in the SPL, a clean slate debt-wise and a points deduction that will have no impact on them whatsoever would be a great result for them. :grr:

[nonshinyfinish]

If that turns out to be the case "we" the Scottish football supporters need to act to force a change in the rules of our game to ensure teams are not able to cheat their way to success without having the sound financials in place to sustain this.

Time to have a close look at the Bundesliga model - every club's books are open to the DFB, and if you can't demonstrate a realistic aim to break even at least, then you don't get a licence.

The current system of buy success/administration/reappear debt-free shafts both the guilty clubs' creditors and competing clubs who live within their means.

[NYHibby]

Not sure if anyone else has posted this, but the judge in the case, Lord Menzies, was once the Tory candidate in Leith.

[lucky]

This whole saga is embarrassing for Scottish football. Whyte is making a mockery of the Huns HMRC and SPL. They get docked 10 points but will finish second in the table. 10 points is not a big enough punishment. Bump their bills and carry on. It's also s farce that the Huns have been reduced to this.

[Sodje_18]

http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/rangers/297529-football-talk-rangers-crisis-latest/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Hearts could lose 500K from the Wallace deal :faf:

[tamig]

Did his bank not fail to meet lending targets?

Just short - but they still loaned more to SMEs almost as much as the other banks combined.

[YehButNoBut]

The administrators will be Duff & Phelps


HMRC initially objected to Duff & Phelps - said there were concerns of "public perception" if they were appointed.

[Pretty Boy]

Really, and why would that be the case?? ... :rolleyes:

A few funny handshakes and code words?

[NYHibby]

http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/rangers/297529-football-talk-rangers-crisis-latest/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Hearts could lose 500K from the Wallace deal :faf:

Its actually £800,000. £500,000 this summer and another £300,000 next.

[steakbake]

Sounds great in theory but the ugly sisters run the show and IMO the SFA/SPL/SFL will bend over backwards to keep their cash cow happy.

Outrageous if they get away with this and yet another nail in the coffin of Scottish football.

Sorry, but Scottish football has more nails in its coffin than I think any other corpse in the history of humanity.

[BurghHibby]

"HMRC said its representatives were on their way to the court to appoint an administrator on Monday when they found out that Rangers had made their move."

Someone tipped the huns off?

[Spike Mandela]

A week after a judge issues a withering comment on Whytes character how can they allow this lot in, staggering.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/02/14/rangers-in-crisis-administrator-in-waiting-david-grier-will-be-faced-with-biggest-decisions-in-club-s-history-86908-23748131/

[GloryGlory]

It will be sickening when it happens, but you can't help but feel Rangers are going to come out of this relatively unscathed. Their reputation will be in tatters and they will be skint, but survival in the SPL, a clean slate debt-wise and a points deduction that will have no impact on them whatsoever would be a great result for them. :grr:

If HMRC get their way, I doubt that Rangers will be out of administration by the end of March. This means they cannot take part in Europe next year, regardless of where they finish in the league. That's a £10M hole in the budget right away! :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

If that turns out to be the case "we" the Scottish football supporters need to act to force a change in the rules of our game to ensure teams are not able to cheat their way to success without having the sound financials in place to sustain this.


i disagree(for the moment) i think every club in the SPL should now take turns at building up huge debts, getting everything in place, making sure they are at least 10 points clear of possible relegation after the 10 point reduction...then call in the administrators, no reward for having morals in football :agree:

[Hibby Bairn]

Not sure if anyone else has posted this, but the judge in the case, Lord Menzies, was once the Tory candidate in Leith.

Anyone know if he has any football "allegiancies"? :cool2:

[Hibby cal]

You just kinda know that these hun weasels
Are going to wriggle there way out of this
:brickwall:brickwall:brickwall

[ehf]

A week after a judge issues a withering comment on Whytes character how can they allow this lot in, staggering.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/02/14/rangers-in-crisis-administrator-in-waiting-david-grier-will-be-faced-with-biggest-decisions-in-club-s-history-86908-23748131/

Lord Menzies has just given the Court of Session's seal of approval to outright fraud and chicanery:fuming:

[neilmartinrocks]

A week after a judge issues a withering comment on Whytes character how can they allow this lot in, staggering.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/02/14/rangers-in-crisis-administrator-in-waiting-david-grier-will-be-faced-with-biggest-decisions-in-club-s-history-86908-23748131/

starting to look more and more like this is what was planned from the start.

[Steve20]

You just kinda know that these hun weasels
Are going to wriggle there way out of this
:brickwall:brickwall:brickwall

Surely they will still need to pay back all their debts, including the huge amount to the HMRC. Maybe they got their own way on getting to appoint own administrator, but they're still ****ed.

[HibbyAndy]

http://www.hibs.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7917&d=1329229267

[Saorsa]

:greengrin

http://www.hibs.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7917&d=1329229267

[silverhibee]

Rangers Vs Kilmarnock game in doubt this weekend due to Huns being unable to pay Strathclyde Polis.

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4128390/Will-the-last-person-to-leave-Ibrox-please-BRlock-the-gateBR.html

[ehf]

Surely they will still need to pay back all their debts, including the huge amount to the HMRC. Maybe they got their own way on getting to appoint own administrator, but they're still ****ed.

Fraid not: the business and assets will have been transferred to a NewCo owned by Whyte by close of business today and HMRC plus all the other unsecured creditors will be left high and dry. Only hope of avoiding this was if a proper administrator was appointed rather than Whyte's sidekick.

[hibs0666]

Court being called back in. Huns will be in administration within the hour I guess.

[Smidge]

Fraid not: the business and assets will have been transferred to a NewCo owned by Whyte by close of business today and HMRC plus all the other unsecured creditors will be left high and dry. Only hope of avoiding this was if a proper administrator was appointed rather than Whyte's sidekick.

I would doubt that very much. If this was done pre-administration, it would be very easy to strike down as an unfair preference. If it is done in administration, given the size of the unsecured creditors, I'd be pretty confident that the administrator would quickly find himself before the Court of Session to explain his actions. Cannot see that a pre-pack would work here as it would quickly be seen as an attempt to defraud HMRC.

Apart from anything else, the SPL membership is not a liquid asset that could be so easily transferred....