Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Seveno]

Happy days in the club deck then. They might want to think about putting a net up there. :wink:

Oh, you bad person. :rotflmao:

[Onion]

Had a look through it and the list is incredible, they owe money for Gas, Electricity, Telephone they even owe £567 to the local newsagent shop.

They owe the Police, Ambulance, G4S, Glasgow City Council (Council Tax) etc, how on earth are they still allowed to continue. If that were you and I we would have been dead and buried a long time ago.

I know being a member of the Lodge has some advantages but this is taking the P155

:agree: what's for sure is that every penny anyone spends from now on RFC is dead money. No chance of winning the SPL, no chance of getting into Europe. Suppose they get their weekly opportunity to sign their bigoted songs without any chance of the authorities clamping down :green grin

Will enjoy dancing on their grave :thumbsup:

[Onion]

If they owe that much to the police and ambulance services then how the hell are they still allowed to hold games at ibrox, surely the strayhclyde force should be refusing to police games until they are paid, can't see this happening anywhere else or in any other sector, it stinks

:agree: over the next few days, this and many more questions will be asked about RFC still being in business.

Nothing to do with the £400 an hour rate the Admins are getting, like :greengrin

[Saorsa]

Happy days in the club deck then. They might want to think about putting a net up there. :wink::greengrin

[Brando7]

That report is the best thing I have ever read :aok:

[Seveno]

This is my favourite bit :

The Joint Administrators‟ agents, Lambert Smith, were appointed to provide an indicative valuation of Ibrox Stadium on an existing use and alternative use basis.


:lolrangers:

[IWasThere2016]

The end is nigh :thumbsup:

Like Onion, my thoughts on hearing this was how I want to dance of the filthy badstars' grave! We are the corpses! :faf:

[Hibs7]

£135m !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who the **** is going to buy them.?

[ancienthibby]

This is my favourite bit :

The Joint Administrators‟ agents, Lambert Smith, were appointed to provide an indicative valuation of Ibrox Stadium on an existing use and alternative use basis.


:lolrangers:

That instruction to the valuing agents is completely normal - nothing to see here!:wink:

[Hibs7]

Nobody in their right mind would take on that amount of debt, can't see any way they can just write this off and still stay the same Rangers.

[Brando7]

On Reading the report is says Duff & Phelps been having dealing with the club since January 2011 so must me well aware of the background of the club before going into administration?

[Kojock]

Even without the monies owed to the Big Tax Case, The Small Tax Case and the Employees they still owe £55,415,632. They're doomed a tell ya, they're doomed

Creditor -Claim (£)

Trade & Expense Creditors - £5,544,508

Ticketus (amount of claim to be confirmed) - £26,700,000

HM Revenue & Customs – Excluding Big and Small Tax Cases - £14,372,042

HM Revenue & Customs – Small Tax Case TBC

HM Revenue & Customs – Big Tax Case TBC

Supporter Debenture Holders - £7,736,000

Football Related Creditors - £1,063,082

Employees TBC

Total - £55,415,632

[Seveno]

That instruction to the valuing agents is completely normal - nothing to see here!:wink:

Yes, I know but stop spoiling the fun.

[Gala Foxes]

Rangers & New Rangers / Rangers 2012 or whatever they call themselves should be banned from signing any players / S Forms etc until every last penny owed to other football clubs is repaid

[Hibernia&Alba]

Before I permit myself a stauner here, let's look at worse case scenario; that is worst case for the rest of the world.

Circa £75 million, may be less, is HMRC big tax case which hasn't yet been resolved. Rangers might win the case.

£26 million or so is Ticketus deal which was done by Craig Whyte and which Rangers are disputing the legality of. The might win that case, too.


Hence their two biggest potential debts might not come into play at all.

I'm still keeping the jelly and ice-cream in the fridge. So many twists and turns with this.

[JeMeSouviens]

Before I permit myself a stauner here, let's look at worse case scenario; that is worst case for the rest of the world.

Circa £75 million, may be less, is HMRC big tax case which hasn't yet been resolved. Rangers might win the case.

£26 million or so is Ticketus deal which was done by Craig Whyte and which Rangers are disputing the legality of. The might win that case, too.


Hence their two biggest potential debts might not come into play at all.

I'm still keeping the jelly and ice-cream in the fridge. So many twists and turns with this.

They're not disputing that Ticketus had a valid deal, that's uncontested. What they're disputing is whether the Huns coming out of admin would have to honour the deal or whether they could just say, ok Ticketus, you're not getting the tickets so we owe you £27M instead. Join the queue of shaftees and get your p/£.

[Hibernia&Alba]

They're not disputing that Ticketus had a valid deal, that's uncontested. What they're disputing is whether the Huns coming out of admin would have to honour the deal or whether they could just say, ok Ticketus, you're not getting the tickets so we owe you £27M instead. Join the queue of shaftees and get your p/£.

It's the big tax case that will decide all of this really. Win it and they get their CVA, paying their creditors a few pence in the pound, as you say. Lose it and we then have to hope HMRC refuse any kind of CVA deal.

[Onion]

Nobody in their right mind would take on that amount of debt, can't see any way they can just write this off and still stay the same Rangers.

All the bids will be on the basis the company can agree a CVA. If the main creditor (HMRC) decides against a CVA then the Huns are dust. Then probably one of the bidders will start the 1690Huns FC from scratch and look to rent Hunbrox for a quid.

[Brando7]

My ideal scenario would be rangers to get bought over come out of administration then get hit for the £75M from HMRC and have to go back into administration :thumbsup:

That would make my year!!

[JeMeSouviens]

It's the big tax case that will decide all of this really. Win it and they get their CVA, paying their creditors a few pence in the pound, as you say. Lose it and we then have to hope HMRC refuse any kind of CVA deal.

On the figures quoted by D&P, HMRC are over 25% even without the BTC. So Hector can block a CVA whatever. A quick glance over other football administrations shows they've not voted in favour of one yet (that I can find anyway).

Also, you have to think the Salmond thing is going to count against Der Hun. The very last thing Cameron & the Tories will want is his smug pus claiming his part in saving The Rangers. :rolleyes:

[Bighoose]

Excerpt from BBC report reads - The report reveals that since Rangers went into administration - some six weeks ago - the club has lost more than £2.5m

How the **** then haven't some more players been let go?

Reserve keeper, Neil Alexander is still getting £7K (£28K reduced by 75%) for sitting on the bench each week. There's £42K min that could have been saved.
same for Davis, Whittaker, McGregor, etc, etc...

It is so they can get the cash for finishing second by paying players that the Admin's admit they cant afford? Whole thing stinks.

[Iggy Pope]

Edinburgh City Council - £90 !!!!

Parking fines? Lee Wallace' Ridacard? Kevin Thomson's Mammy's rent?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Just watched the story re Rangers debt on STV News which finishes off with them offering Aluko a new contract, how does that work then?

[NAE NOOKIE]

The surprise is the amount they owe the newsagent ... I'm just impressed somebody at the new Govan TESCO can read.

But seriously folks:

For as long as they owe money to other clubs for what I presume are transfer fees, is it the case that they will not be allowed to sign players until that debt is paid?

How can they be allowed to participate in next seasons League cup or Scottish cup, if when the draws are made they still owe money to other clubs ( principally to Dundee Utd ) from the previous seasons Scottish cup?

From the look of the possible final debt total, how can any of the 4 ( now 3 I understand ) bidders have any way of dealing with such a huge deficit? As far as I am aware even the largest bid comes nowhere near offering to put that kind of money into the club.

It looks like liquidation as far as a total layman like me can see.

When that happens then we will see just how much integrity Scottish football has left ........... if any.

Anything less than newco huns starting again at the bottom of SPL2 with or without a points deduction will be totally unacceptable to fans of every club in Scotland. Especially Livingston, Dundee and Gretna. Not to mention clubs who fear getting to the top of the first division coz they cant afford the thousands of pounds required to bring their grounds up to scratch.

I say SPL2 because if the current buns do re start as a new club the other clubs will put SPL2 into place in order to avoid sending newco huns into the 3rd division, giving them the chance to get back into SPL1 in at the most 2 seasons.

[Hibrandenburg]

Damn, my bid of bratwurst and cyanide capsules has been turned down.

[Hibernia&Alba]

On the figures quoted by D&P, HMRC are over 25% even without the BTC. So Hector can block a CVA whatever. A quick glance over other football administrations shows they've not voted in favour of one yet (that I can find anyway).

Also, you have to think the Salmond thing is going to count against Der Hun. The very last thing Cameron & the Tories will want is his smug pus claiming his part in saving The Rangers. :rolleyes:


Another 'small tax case' has been listed which invloves payments to a couple of players. Interesting.

[StevieC]

So it would appear that the huns need to wrap £134 million into the CVA to avoid liquidation. The best-possible bid seems to be coming in at around £20 million, making an offer to creditors of around 10p in the pound possible.

Remember that CW is still trying to claim that he is secured creditor and due £30m.
If he can confirm this in the courts then there's nothing left in the pot for unsecured creditors.

[bingo70]

Would have been better if the debt was lower imo so they would have spent years trading out of it, with the debt being as it is it seems inevitable they'll go into liquidation and back debt free in the SPL in no time, even if it is with a slightly different name

[heretoday]

It's imperative that Rangers are saved.

We don't want thousands of morons wandering about the West of Scotland with nothing to do on a Saturday afternoon.

No more than usual that is.

[CentreLine]

Public bodies The largest estimated amount is to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC).
Debenture owners - fans who loaned money to the club - are owed £7.7m
And taxpayer-funded bodies also owed money include: Strathclyde Police (£51,882), Scottish Ambulance Service (£8,438), Culture and Sport Glasgow (£10,338), Glasgow City Council (£7,000), Argyll and Bute Council (£406), and Edinburgh City Council (£90).
The report also reveals that Rangers owe more than £2.3m to 12 football clubs in Scotland, England and throughout Europe.
Domestically, Rangers owe: Hearts (£800,000), Dunfermline Athletic (£83,370), Dundee United (£65,981), Celtic (£40,337) and Inverness Caledonian Thistle (£39,805).
English clubs are also owed more than £700,000. This breaks down as: Manchester City (£328,248), Chelsea (£238,345) and Arsenal (£136,560).
European clubs are also owed more than £1.6m, including Rapid Vienna (£1,011,763), St Etienne (£252,212), Palermo (£205,513) and Orebro (£150,000).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17628749

They're ****ed :lolrangers:

Perhaps CavG or CWG can explain if these figures ensure that HMRS can vito a CVA. Also how are they counting such a big figure for Ticketus if their deal doesn't kick in until tickets are due for sale? Finally, where is CW in all this?

[jgl07]

Perhaps CavG or CWG can explain if these figures ensure that HMRS can vito a CVA. Also how are they counting such a big figure for Ticketus if their deal doesn't kick in until tickets are due for sale? Finally, where is CW in all this?


If HMRC have at least 25% of the debts they can veto a CVA.

There have been suggestions in the past that clubs have over-stated their non-HMRC debts to dilute the shared owed in taxes. This appears to have happened at Portsmouth whereone company was put down as a creditor when they were in fact a debtor.

[HFC 0-7]

Perhaps CavG or CWG can explain if these figures ensure that HMRS can vito a CVA. Also how are they counting such a big figure for Ticketus if their deal doesn't kick in until tickets are due for sale? Finally, where is CW in all this?

I think the admins have basically said that they can tear up the contract that allows ticketus to have first dibs on future ST sales and stick them into the pot with unsecured creditors with a debt of 27 million meaning they have to accept x amount of pence in the pound.

[MrSmith]

The Great Rock n Roll Swindle!

[Keith_M]

If HMRC have at least 25% of the debts they can veto a CVA.

There have been suggestions in the past that clubs have over-stated their non-HMRC debts to dilute the shared owed in taxes. This appears to have happened at Portsmouth whereone company was put down as a creditor when they were in fact a debtor.

So, it's actually been in the interests of Duff and Phelps for Rangers to have racked up more non-tax debt during their stewardship. This would also help explain the sudden dramatic increase in the declared debt. The more non-HMRC debt they can claim to have, the less likely that HMRC can block any CVA.


I wonder if the bills for their own services are added to the debt or is that one particular expenditure (1.2M and counting) that's guaranteed to be paid in full :hmmm:

[grunt]

I wonder if the bills for their own services are added to the debt or is that one particular expenditure (1.2M and counting) that's guaranteed to be paid in full :hmmm:Ask yourself who is in charge of the cheque book at Ibrox at the moment...

[hibs0666]

If HMRC have at least 25% of the debts they can veto a CVA.

There have been suggestions in the past that clubs have over-stated their non-HMRC debts to dilute the shared owed in taxes. This appears to have happened at Portsmouth whereone company was put down as a creditor when they were in fact a debtor.

I think HMRC already have 25% of the debt with the confirmed debt figure of £55 million.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

It's imperative that Rangers are saved.

We don't want thousands of morons wandering about the West of Scotland with nothing to do on a Saturday afternoon.





It would be like being surrounded by "walkers" from The Walking Dead!

[grunt]

Para 5.4 Due diligence in relation to the acquisition was undertaken for Liberty Capital by Saffery ChampnessThat would be an interesting read...

[Edit] And it seems that they weren't even paid for the work.

[Bostonhibby]

It's imperative that Rangers are saved.

We don't want thousands of morons wandering about the West of Scotland with nothing to do on a Saturday afternoon.

No more than usual that is.

:agree: Isn't that what we have out of town shopping centres for?

[CropleyWasGod]

Perhaps CavG or CWG can explain if these figures ensure that HMRS can vito a CVA. Also how are they counting such a big figure for Ticketus if their deal doesn't kick in until tickets are due for sale? Finally, where is CW in all this?

Hi. I'm on ma holidays, so haven't read the last few pages in great detail. Pyramids take preference over Hibs.net :greengrin

1. yes, HMRC could veto the CVA on those numbers.

2. Ticketus will have made a claim to the admins, so they have to be included. I think, though, that all claims have to be "adjudicated" before any payment, under a CVA, could be made.

3. CW is not in there because he is not an unsecured creditor. In his opinion, he is a secured one... although, in the admins opinion (and mine) he isn't. If, by some fluke, he is proven to be secured, then he gets paid before any unsecureds.

There are plenty other posters on here who have a decent handle on what's happening..... so dinny bother me again, eh? :greengrin

[Kaiser1962]

I struggle to find these massive figures believable.

The key matter is the level of wages paid through EBT, so avoiding HMRC PAYE and NIC contributions. So to get to the quoted number, then RFC UNDER SDM MUST HAVE BEEN PAYING MASSIVE UNDISCLOSED WAGES FOR YEARS AND YEARS,

If that is so, then he will be just DM and in court awaiting judgment!:cb


Rangers FC (official) figures over the last ten years (2000-2001 till 2009-2010) amount to ;

Income £454.8m

Wages £307m

P/L (87.7m)


Given that they also raised £51.4m in a share issue in 2004 it beggars belief as to what has been going on.

It is also worth noting that these are all prior to Craig Whyte's involvement.

[CentreLine]

Hi. I'm on ma holidays, so haven't read the last few pages in great detail. Pyramids take preference over Hibs.net :greengrin

1. yes, HMRC could veto the CVA on those numbers.

2. Ticketus will have made a claim to the admins, so they have to be included. I think, though, that all claims have to be "adjudicated" before any payment, under a CVA, could be made.

3. CW is not in there because he is not an unsecured creditor. In his opinion, he is a secured one... although, in the admins opinion (and mine) he isn't. If, by some fluke, he is proven to be secured, then he gets paid before any unsecureds.

There are plenty other posters on here who have a decent handle on what's happening..... so dinny bother me again, eh? :greengrin

Aye good point. Wecome back though and so very glad my fears are unfounded

[CropleyWasGod]

So, it's actually been in the interests of Duff and Phelps for Rangers to have racked up more non-tax debt during their stewardship. This would also help explain the sudden dramatic increase in the declared debt. The more non-HMRC debt they can claim to have, the less likely that HMRC can block any CVA.


I wonder if the bills for their own services are added to the debt or is that one particular expenditure (1.2M and counting) that's guaranteed to be paid in full :hmmm:

It's guaranteed.

[hibs0666]

Finance professor reckons a CVA is feasible...

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/302806-finance-professor-claims-rangers-debt-could-be-cleared-through-cva/

[fatbloke]

I have checked every British and European newspaper and I can find no trace of the headline Huns bid for Huns. This I feel should be raised at the Leveson Inquiry and the journos and editors who so shamefully and negligently failed to spot this opportunityshould be hauled over the coals.:greengrin

[Spike Mandela]

Finance professor reckons a CVA is feasible...

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/302806-finance-professor-claims-rangers-debt-could-be-cleared-through-cva/

He doesn't explain why this low level of repayment would be accepted. Wouldn't surprise me if he was correct however.

I have thought for many years that administration is just a convenient financial tool used consistently by football clubs to get out of large debt. Let's face it Motherwell have had a pretty good run since the 'pain' of administration.

Every football club should do it. Makes our prudence even more ****ing ridiculous.

[jgl07]

Finance professor reckons a CVA is feasible...

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-central/302806-finance-professor-claims-rangers-debt-could-be-cleared-through-cva/

What a load of tosh!

Like HMRC are going to accept 8 pence in the pound on a CVA for their £75 million debts (after the big tax case tribunal reports).

[Part/Time Supporter]

He doesn't explain why this low level of repayment would be accepted. Wouldn't surprise me if he was correct however.

I have thought for many years that administration is just a convenient financial tool used consistently by football clubs to get out of large debt. Let's face it Motherwell have had a pretty good run since the 'pain' of administration.

Every football club should do it. Makes our prudence even more ****ing ridiculous.

I think Motherwell is an unusual case in that the vast majority of their debts were owed to John Boyle. When he wrote his share off, which allowed them to exit administration through a deal with the other creditors, they were debt free. They've ran their club well since then.

Most other clubs that have gone into administration are in a worse state now than before - eg Dundee, Gretna, Livingston, several English examples.

[Part/Time Supporter]

What a load of tosh!

Like HMRC are going to accept 8 pence in the pound on a CVA for their £75 million debts (after the big tax case tribunal reports).

If the alternative is getting 5p in the £ through a liquidation fire sale, they might.

[essexhibee]

Erm so.... Is it likely or not rangers are gonna go bust or not? :greengrin :greengrin

[jgl07]

If the alternative is getting 5p in the £ through a liquidation fire sale, they might.

HMRC are not interested in clawing back a few quid from a CVA.

They want a big scalp. Making Rangers insolvent would send out a message to all and sundry that they mean business and they will take no **** from anyone. As the French used to say: kill a general from time to time 'pour encourager les autres'.

If HMRC accept a CVA of around 10 pence in the pound, this will send out a message to the effect that you do not need to pay tax as you can do a deal to pay less than 10% of that owed.

There are few bigger scalps on offer in British Football than Rangers. HMRC will not less this one pass.

[Hibernia&Alba]

HMRC are not interested in clawing back a few quid from a CVA.

They want a big scalp. Making Rangers insolvent would send out a message to all and sundry that they mean business and they will take no **** from anyone. As the French used to say: kill a general from time to time 'pour encourager les autres'.

If HMRC accept a CVA of around 10 pence in the pound, this will send out a message to the effect that you do not need to pay tax as you can do a deal to pay less than 10% of that owed.

There are few bigger scalps on offer in British Football than Rangers. HMRC will not less this one pass.

Who do you have in mind? Not many clubs are bigger than Rangers. Man United, Liverpool, maybe Arsenal and Celtic. Richer clubs than Rangers is another matter, of course, with the EPL having been awash with money for years.

[Andy74]

If the alternative is getting 5p in the £ through a liquidation fire sale, they might.

From the valuation figures given liquidation looks like it would net about 80p in the £. The values for the land assets look a bit fanciful though.

[Jack]

Of course all these figures are dwarfed by the amount they are morally due the supporters of all the other clubs they have played, at least over the last 10 years, as they have cheated from match to match. And not for just matches against them but all matches in all competitions they have participated in.

Maybe someone with a legal and accountants background could put together a case so that we can all make a claim.


PS I do see the problem with the first bit where morals are mentioned.

[greenginger]

From the valuation figures given liquidation looks like it would net about 80p in the £. The values for the land assets look a bit fanciful though.


The valuation will be based on replacement costs not what Ibrox and Murray Park would fetch on the open market.

Perhaps if they assets would offered for sale individually it would force a better bid from the likes of David Murray who would have to do something to at least save Ibrox for the club.

[lapsedhibee]

Of course all these figures are dwarfed by the amount they are morally due the supporters of all the other clubs they have played, at least over the last 10 years, as they have cheated from match to match. And not for just matches against them but all matches in all competitions they have participated in.

Not just the last ten years. I'm positive I saw Henry Kissinger coming out of the Hibs dressing room just before the 1993 LC Final. :agree:

[John_the_angus_hibby]

On Sportsound last night. In amongst a quite interesting discussion including his evident discomfort when the other panellists started talking about the lamb diners and lap dog media.

When they were talking about the fact that Rankers would be facing the same problem even if CW had not bought the company, Chic claimed the last audited accounts shown they were making a profit but was corrected by the others. His ignorance, bias and lack of interest in detail is quite amazing.

This fabrication about him being a St Mirren fan has to laid to rest now I think.


Sent from another universe!

[lapsedhibee]

On Sportsound last night. In amongst a quite interesting discussion including his evident discomfort when the other panellists started talking about the lamb diners and lap dog media.

When they were talking about the fact that Rankers would be facing the same problem even if CW had not bought the company, Chic claimed the last audited accounts shown they were making a profit but was corrected by the others. His ignorance, bias and lack of interest in detail is quite amazing.



Instead of that excuse for a comedy show that he does at NY, Jonathan Watson should have a go at doing Chic's job for a year. Guaranteed to be a better investigative journalist than (a) comedian and (b) Chic.

[Part/Time Supporter]

On Sportsound last night. In amongst a quite interesting discussion including his evident discomfort when the other panellists started talking about the lamb diners and lap dog media.

When they were talking about the fact that Rankers would be facing the same problem even if CW had not bought the company, Chic claimed the last audited accounts shown they were making a profit but was corrected by the others. His ignorance, bias and lack of interest in detail is quite amazing.

This fabrication about him being a St Mirren fan has to laid to rest now I think.


Sent from another universe!

They did make a (small) profit last year. The problem is that it was totally dependent on them qualifying for a CL group. Without that (or even a EL group) they are losing £10m+ in a year.

[green glory]

Instead of that excuse for a comedy show that he does at NY, Jonathan Watson should have a go at doing Chic's job for a year. Guaranteed to be a better investigative journalist than (a) comedian and (b) Chic.

If Jimmy Krankie did Chick's job for a year, would we notice?

[green glory]

Re a p/£ deal. DM offered HMRC £10m before selling to CW. Bearing in mind the tax debt has increased by £14m during CW's tenure. Why would Hector accept less for more now?

[Kaiser1962]

They did make a (small) profit last year. The problem is that it was totally dependent on them qualifying for a CL group. Without that (or even a EL group) they are losing £10m+ in a year.

£4.2m profit for 2009-2010.

That said they lost £87.7m in the ten seasons up to and including that one. They have been profitable in 3 out the last ten seasons but, nonetheless, spent £139.1m more than they brought in during that period. Wages to turnover for the ten year period was a reasonably healthy 67.5%.

[Part/Time Supporter]

The valuation will be based on replacement costs not what Ibrox and Murray Park would fetch on the open market.

Perhaps if they assets would offered for sale individually it would force a better bid from the likes of David Murray who would have to do something to at least save Ibrox for the club.

And from reading the report there appear to be all sorts of problems in respect of using the land owned by Rangers for other purposes.

eg1 Para 9.18 Albion Road Car Park is subject to a finance agreement and Rangers won't have full title until 2023.

eg2 Para 14.3 to 14.11 Kelvinside Academy had a security over Murray Park that meant they would cut of any sale or change of use, which lapsed in October 2009. The Sports Council also provided secured funding of £505K for Murray Park.

eg3 Para 14.14 to 14.17 PPG (a Murray company) has two standard securities over the land occupied by the away end at Ibrox.

[SurferRosa]

£4.2m profit for 2009-2010.

That said they lost £87.7m in the ten seasons up to and including that one. They have been profitable in 3 out the last ten seasons but, nonetheless, spent £139.1m more than they brought in during that period. Wages to turnover for the ten year period was a reasonably healthy 67.5%.

:agree:..and that`s just the wages we know aboot.........:wink:

[Caversham Green]

What a load of tosh!

Like HMRC are going to accept 8 pence in the pound on a CVA for their £75 million debts (after the big tax case tribunal reports).

While I wouldn't go as far as calling it a load of tosh it does look like the good professor has been either very selectively quoted or recruited into the propaganda machine. To make these statements without any sort of caveat about HMRC's (and other creditors') attitude to a CVA strikes me as highly irresponsible. There's a growing anti-liquidation movement (which feels like it's being orchestrated by Duff & Phelps) that just ignores any inconvenient facts.

I would say there's a possibilty of a CVA, but it requires the goodwill of HMRC and others so liquidation still looks the most likely outcome.

The double contract investigation appears to have gone very quiet, as has the apparent attempted buy-out of St. Mirren - I'm surprised Buddies fan Chic Young hasn't been all over that :fibber:.

[JeMeSouviens]

Curiously, the SPL's articles of association seem to have mysteriously gone missing from their website. :confused:

Is it just me, can anyone else find them?

[...WentToMowAnSPL]

From the thread so far it sounds like the tickitus deal was all about inflating the amount of non HMRC debt to force a CVA prior to the big and small cases being settled... Relying on a lot of political pressure on Hector to stop the tax man 'destroying the club'... .... Interesting times

[AlbertK86]

PLAIN and SIMPLE

They have been cheating the system for years.

Just spend whatever you want and don't pay yer dues. Incredible that they think that ain't cheating

Hope they get suitably punished by SFA and SPL

Cannae see it tho.... They will bottle it !!!!

[WhileTheChief..]

as has the apparent attempted buy-out of St. Mirren - I'm surprised Buddies fan Chic Young hasn't been all over that :fibber:.

There was a big bit about this on Sportsound the other night with St Mirren director Ken McGeough, the guy that was accused of cooking up a deal with CW. The whole thing about a ploy to buy St Mirren in case the Huns get liquidated was a piece of nonsence. It did sound a bit murky because he was using Collier & Bristow as his lawyers but there was nothing in it at all according to McGeough. His busainess partner , Paul Davies i think, was involved with Rangers though but that was something to do with building a community gym and a separate issue.

I think the media just put 2 + 2 and came up with some random number because it was a good story.

In fairness to Chick he was all over it.

You can listen to the podcast here ....http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot#playepisode3

[JeMeSouviens]

From the thread so far it sounds like the tickitus deal was all about inflating the amount of non HMRC debt to force a CVA prior to the big and small cases being settled... Relying on a lot of political pressure on Hector to stop the tax man 'destroying the club'... .... Interesting times

Don't think so. There would be no point in agreeing a CVA, coming out of admin and just going straight back in when the BTC hits.

Personally, I think all the chat about a CVA is just posturing to be seen as the true saviours who heroically did all they could. Liquidation and an asset sale to a PhoenixHuns still seems by far the most likely option. The Blue Knights seem unlikely to be the highest bidders for the assets if an asset sale were held now, so it's in their interest to keep the CVA option alive as long as possible so they're seen as the only game in town.

[JeMeSouviens]

There was a big bit about this on Sportsound the other night with St Mirren director Ken McGeough, the guy that was accused of cooking up a deal with CW. The whole thing about a ploy to buy St Mirren in case the Huns get liquidated was a piece of nonsence. It did sound a bit murky because he was using Collier & Bristow as his lawyers but there was nothing in it at all according to McGeough. His busainess partner , Paul Davies i think, was involved with Rangers though but that was something to do with building a community gym and a separate issue.

I think the media just put 2 + 2 and came up with some random number because it was a good story.

In fairness to Chick he was all over it.

You can listen to the podcast here ....http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot#playepisode3

I heard that as well. You're being too fair to Chick. He attempted to skate over it all and any mention of the elephantine Rangers in the room was glossed over before Jim Spence butted in and asked the bleeding obvious. Ken McGeough may have been an innocent party in it all, if not he's a damn good liar, but the meetings between his partner and Withey and Whyte of the Hun sounded distinctly dubious. The idea of Whyte spending on a community gym when he was hunkered down withholding the Huns' PAYE seems just a bit ludicrous.

[Caversham Green]

There was a big bit about this on Sportsound the other night with St Mirren director Ken McGeough, the guy that was accused of cooking up a deal with CW. The whole thing about a ploy to buy St Mirren in case the Huns get liquidated was a piece of nonsence. It did sound a bit murky because he was using Collier & Bristow as his lawyers but there was nothing in it at all according to McGeough. His busainess partner , Paul Davies i think, was involved with Rangers though but that was something to do with building a community gym and a separate issue.

I think the media just put 2 + 2 and came up with some random number because it was a good story.

In fairness to Chick he was all over it.

You can listen to the podcast here ....http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot#playepisode3

I missed that - don't get Sportsound in the depths of Berkshire. It wasn't just the media though, the link with Whyte was mentioned in the second club statement on the St Mirren site. I'll listen to the podcast when I get the chance (off for pre-match refreshments before Reading v Leeds shortly) but for the moment I remain cynical about the whole thing. As I said earlier in the thread, at the very least Gary Withey should have been nowhere near the deal because of his conflict if interest.

[WhileTheChief..]

I heard that as well. You're being too fair to Chick. He attempted to skate over it all and any mention of the elephantine Rangers in the room was glossed over before Jim Spence butted in and asked the bleeding obvious. Ken McGeough may have been an innocent party in it all, if not he's a damn good liar, but the meetings between his partner and Withey and Whyte of the Hun sounded distinctly dubious. The idea of Whyte spending on a community gym when he was hunkered down withholding the Huns' PAYE seems just a bit ludicrous.

Agree with most of what you say here and it definately appears dubious and underhand. I just think that the main crux of the story that St MIrren were being lined up for Rangers to take their place is one conspiracy theory too far.

I probably was being too fair on Chick Young but somebody's got to!! I know its not a fashionable position to hold on here but I like listening to most of the Sportsound team even when I might disagree with everything they are saying.

[MrSmith]

Interesting times:

http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=11540

[IWasThere2016]

Interesting times:

http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=11540

The boy sounds as white as Whyte! They'll have to punt him!

[IWasThere2016]

Interesting times:

http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=11540

The boy sounds as white as Whyte! They'll have to punt him!

[Bishop Hibee]

On Sportsound last night. In amongst a quite interesting discussion including his evident discomfort when the other panellists started talking about the lamb diners and lap dog media.

When they were talking about the fact that Rankers would be facing the same problem even if CW had not bought the company, Chic claimed the last audited accounts shown they were making a profit but was corrected by the others. His ignorance, bias and lack of interest in detail is quite amazing.

This fabrication about him being a St Mirren fan has to laid to rest now I think.


Sent from another universe!

It was frankly embarrassing when the 'succulent lamb' issue was raised by Jim Spence. Chic more or less said he and Murray were hand in glove but it is no more than good media practice to have sources you can get a story from. No problem with that but when the stories are so obviously one sided it's going to come back to bite the journalist. Roddy Forsyth said how he'd been black-balled by Murray for raising the Joe Lewis/ENIC issue when Lewis cautioned Murray about overspending. Forsyth quoted Murray after speaking to him and Murray said he'd spoken off the record and took the hump.


While I wouldn't go as far as calling it a load of tosh it does look like the good professor has been either very selectively quoted or recruited into the propaganda machine. To make these statements without any sort of caveat about HMRC's (and other creditors') attitude to a CVA strikes me as highly irresponsible. There's a growing anti-liquidation movement (which feels like it's being orchestrated by Duff & Phelps) that just ignores any inconvenient facts.

I would say there's a possibilty of a CVA, but it requires the goodwill of HMRC and others so liquidation still looks the most likely outcome.

The double contract investigation appears to have gone very quiet, as has the apparent attempted buy-out of St. Mirren - I'm surprised Buddies fan Chic Young hasn't been all over that :fibber:.

Newsnight Scotland last night had an expert in insolvency on the program who reckoned 12p in the pound would probably be enough to satisfy HMRC. This would mean any prospective buyer would need £25m to bring the huns out of administration. This is before the money needed to buy Craig Whyte's shares presumably :confused:

Shame I can't pay 12p in the £ on my credit card bill :grr:

[Spike Mandela]

Newsnight Scotland last night had an expert in insolvency on the program who reckoned 12p in the pound would probably be enough to satisfy HMRC. This would mean any prospective buyer would need £25m to bring the huns out of administration. This is before the money needed to buy Craig Whyte's shares presumably :confused:

Shame I can't pay 12p in the £ on my credit card bill :grr:

Yip 12p in the pound to all creditors including the small businesses. Yet within weeks,nay, days the new owners will be negotiating million pound deals on wages and signings. Nothing is quite as corrupt as this legal corruption.

[ancienthibby]

Yip 12p in the pound to all creditors including the small businesses. Yet within weeks,nay, days the new owners will be negotiating million pound deals on wages and signings. Nothing is quite as corrupt as this legal corruption.

I would very much 'hae ma doots' on that, Mr. Spike!

There is no bidder on the scene who has the resources to continue the overspending on wages and players that has got RFC into this state. I would foresee redundancies flowing very quickly. Wages will not go back to current levels for years to come and what other football club will now deal with RFC when their most recent dealings yielded 12p in the £?:cb

[Spike Mandela]

I would very much 'hae ma doots' on that, Mr. Spike!

There is no bidder on the scene who has the resources to continue the overspending on wages and players that has got RFC into this state. I would foresee redundancies flowing very quickly. Wages will not go back to current levels for years to come and what other football club will now deal with RFC when their most recent dealings yielded 12p in the £?:cb

Remember this isn't the real business world we are talking about Mr Ancient. The fans will very quickly be demanding CL glory and with a blank slate to work from hitherto unseen wealth of the buyers will be discovered and duly invested. Business as usual.

[calmac12000]

Like many people I see the possibility of a CVA as mere wishful thinking on the part of various pro-Hun figures. For one I don't think HMRC are likely to accept such a paltry settlement as the one on offer. Indeed, if they did it would undermine public confidence in the integrity of the system. Of course one would not expect such concerns to figure prominently amongst the concerns of the Laptop Loyal. Perhaps, if our media were to concentrate on serious investigative journalism instead of sycophantically pandering to what they perceive to be the sectarian majority in this country, we would have a country fit for the Twenty First century: as opposed to one stuck in the Seventeenth.

[Dashing Bob S]

Like many people I see the possibility of a CVA as mere wishful thinking on the part of various pro-Hun figures. For one I don't think HMRC are likely to accept such a paltry settlement as the one on offer. Indeed, if they did it would undermine public confidence in the integrity of the system. Of course one would not expect such concerns to figure prominently amongst the concerns of the Laptop Loyal. Perhaps, if our media were to concentrate on serious investigative journalism instead of sycophantically pandering to what they perceive to be the sectarian majority in this country, we would have a country fit for the Twenty First century: as opposed to one stuck in the Seventeenth.

:top marks

[jgl07]

Who do you have in mind? Not many clubs are bigger than Rangers. Man United, Liverpool, maybe Arsenal and Celtic. Richer clubs than Rangers is another matter, of course, with the EPL having been awash with money for years.

They are bigger than Rangers but not realistic targets as they run in a league which makes it worthwhile for a sale to go through if they get into difficulties. Liverpool (in the past) and Man United have dodgy business models and the likes of Chelsea and Man City have been spending prolifically.

The Premier League cubs down south are insulated by TV money. The dangers comes if they are relegated and when the parachute payments run out. Hence most of the clubs that HMRC have targetted are a tier below, the likes of Leeds United, Portsmouth, etc plus the lesser teams such as Port Vale and Darlington.

Rangers are a big name. Why else would there be so much media coverage down south. Did Channel Four news cover the problems of Dundee and Livingston? If Rangers are liquidated it will be a big news item on national media.

[greenginger]

I don't think HMRC have been working at this case for years, employing top legal advice and their own senior staff to walk away with 10p in the pound.

This case is all about establishing ground rules for EBT's which have been operated by approximately 5,000 UK companies and setting precedents for future dealings with those companies.

It would be crazy for them to accept a minimal settlement with Rangers which would set the bench-mark for all the other company settlements.

I'm sure they will force liquidation on Rangers as a big stick to wave at the other miscreants.

[grunt]

Craig Whyte interview

http://www.clyde1.com/news/local/jim-interview-craig-whyte/

[Keith_M]

As a Contractor, I was offered a similar sounding scheme to this EBT business. I would be paid 60% of my fee directly and the other 40% would be paid as a loan, from somewhere in the Channel Islands. This would mean that the 40% would not be subject to taxation. My worries were along the lines of 1) How could I trust them to ever pay something that is described as "discretionary", or to never ask for repayment if it's legally a loan? 2) How could it possibly be legal to avoid tax for payment that is quite clearly provided for work that I'd undertaken, and would be given to me for no other reason?

My immediate thought was that it sounded dodgy and if something sounds too good to be true, it normally is, so I declined. Now, I don't claim to be any expert on these things so surely if someone as thick as pig sh*t like myself can see through this, how come nobody at Rangers ever questioned it?



In saying that, if a court in England can decide that a payment to a football manager's pet doesn't sound in the least bit suspicious, maybe I should have gone ahead and said yes.....

[Keith_M]

Craig Whyte interview

http://www.clyde1.com/news/local/jim-interview-craig-whyte/


Wow! That guy is unbelievable!

[Seveno]

Having the day off, I decided to exercise my mind to see if I could come up with Duff & Duffer's master plan that doesn't involve THE MIGHTY GLASGOOOOO RRRRRRANGERS going into liquidation. Here's my wizard wheeze.

An American VC, let's call them SClub7, set up two companies - let's call these Towering Wave 1 and Towering Wave 2.

TW1 buys Rangers for £1.15. It then sells the Rangers brand, player contracts and physical assets for say £25m to TW2, leaving all liabilities including major creditors, Ticketless and Hector, in TW1. With this £25m, they liquidate TW1 giving all creditors about 25p in the pound. A better deal than they could get if there is immediate liquidation.

Meanwhile, TW2 change their name to Rangers Football Club Ltd and reach an agreement with the SPL, SFA and Uefa that they are essentially the same entity as the football club ( or cheating tax dodgers as we know them ) as before and that their existing licence, status and trophy record remain.

Now, you may ask ' How do they get Craigie to agree to this ? ' . Well, go on then, ask.

Okay, they have given him £1.15 which equates to a 15% return on his original investment. They also give him a one way airline ticket to a South American country that does not have an extradition treaty with the UK. For good measure, they also give him a change of identity kit and lessons in Spanish/ Portuguese.

With CWG gone AWOL, I invite CavG to pick holes in this. :cb

[greenginger]

I loved the " I could'nt pay HMRC for the VAT and Tax etc because the Clubs bank accounts had been frozen "

There had been money due from May 2011 to January 2012 that was not paid and it was the tax man's fault for freezing the accounts in February 2012. :confused:

[Seveno]

Wow! That guy is unbelievable!

He has the never to ask what planet HMRC are on ! Well clearly a different planet from you Craig but, coincidentally, they are on the same planet as the rest of us.

[blindsummit]

Wow! That guy is unbelievable!

What a pile of steaming ordure! The non-excuse for not paying their tax has to be the most repellent thing I have heard in this whole sorry saga.

[johnrebus]

I think I love Craig Whyte.

:embarrass

[grunt]

Thought this was an interesting interview

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01fm5k6/Newsnight_Scotland_05_04_2012/

[grunt]

I loved the " I could'nt pay HMRC for the VAT and Tax etc because the Clubs bank accounts had been frozen "

There had been money due from May 2011 to January 2012 that was not paid and it was the tax man's fault for freezing the accounts in February 2012. :confused:I think he's talking about the two arrestment orders in September and October 2011 by Bain and McIntyre for £900k. Not being able to pay £900k doesn't impact much on the debt of £14.3m. It's very annoying when interviewers just let these comments pass without calling them for the rubbish they are.

[WindyMiller]

Thought this was an interesting interview

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01fm5k6/Newsnight_Scotland_05_04_2012/


Probably the most relevant interview I've heard during this drama.

[ScottB]

I think he's talking about the two arrestment orders in September and October 2011 by Bain and McIntyre for £900k. Not being able to pay £900k doesn't impact much on the debt of £14.3m. It's very annoying when interviewers just let these comments pass without calling them for the rubbish they are.

When they insist on sending the most ardent Gers fans going to ask the questions it defeats the purpose.

Saying that, surely of all of us, they'd be wanting answers? Guess it just goes to show the sports journos up here are bought and paid for.

[ancienthibby]

Probably the most relevant interview I've heard during this drama.

IMHO, just been superseded by the former chairman of Leeds United, on BBC Radio Sportsound (check the RS website, it should be up just after 7 p.m.)

He says that the RFC problem will not be solved by well-meaning millionaires, but by a billionaire where total money does not matter.:greengrin

He also says RFC will take years to escape from this operationally and added that issues like the double contracts will not go away.

He's of the view as well that any Newco will face huge cashflow issues with the payroll as high as it is and that will mean significant depletion of the squad.:thumbsup:

[green glory]

CW was supposed to appear in front of the SFA today. He didn't turn up apparently.

[Velma Dinkley]

When they insist on sending the most ardent Gers fans going to ask the questions it defeats the purpose.

Saying that, surely of all of us, they'd be wanting answers? Guess it just goes to show the sports journos up here are bought and paid for.

Sports journalism is even worse than celebrity journalism these days. It's a bit of a stretch to even call it journalism. Generally speaking, the sports journalists just don't have a clue about any of this (they struggle with football!), so any stories regarding Rangers should be covered by financial journalists at the moment. I suspect this is the main reason we are getting very little in the way of revealing or thought-provoking stories.

[Stonewall]

Sports journalism is even worse than celebrity journalism these days. It's a bit of a stretch to even call it journalism. Generally speaking, the sports journalists just don't have a clue about any of this (they struggle with football!), so any stories regarding Rangers should be covered by financial journalists at the moment. I suspect this is the main reason we are getting very little in the way of revealing or thought-provoking stories.

That's because it isn't journalism it's PR. Chic Young has admitted as much.

There's a great quote from Lord Beaverbrook on the subject which I can't find. If anyone knows it please post.

[PatHead]

That's because it isn't journalism it's PR. Chic Young has admitted as much.

There's a great quote from Lord Beaverbrook on the subject which I can't find. If anyone knows it please post.

I think the one you are looking for was when he said he ran the paper "purely for the purposes of making propaganda and for no other purpose"

[stoneyburn hibs]

Love this thread and posts on it , i know squat about the ins and outs , but are the huns going into the blender ?, and is CW a patsy ?

[TrinityHibs]

Love this thread and posts on it , i know squat about the ins and outs , but are the huns going into the blender ?, and is CW a patsy ?

£10 from me if I can press the button

[lapsedhibee]

£10 from me if I can press the button

Think you might have started something there.

£15 from me if I can do it.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Think you might have started something there.

£15 from me if I can do it.

£16.90 and it's yours

[McD]

As a Contractor, I was offered a similar sounding scheme to this EBT business. I would be paid 60% of my fee directly and the other 40% would be paid as a loan, from somewhere in the Channel Islands. This would mean that the 40% would not be subject to taxation. My worries were along the lines of 1) How could I trust them to ever pay something that is described as "discretionary", or to never ask for repayment if it's legally a loan? 2) How could it possibly be legal to avoid tax for payment that is quite clearly provided for work that I'd undertaken, and would be given to me for no other reason?

My immediate thought was that it sounded dodgy and if something sounds too good to be true, it normally is, so I declined. Now, I don't claim to be any expert on these things so surely if someone as thick as pig sh*t like myself can see through this, how come nobody at Rangers ever questioned it?



In saying that, if a court in England can decide that a payment to a football manager's pet doesn't sound in the least bit suspicious, maybe I should have gone ahead and said yes.....


I'm hoping this will actually work against Rangers. HMRC got their fingers burnt with the Harry Redknapp case, where they obviously thought they had a solid case, so I think they will now be pursuing Rangers with even more zeal to show the UK football community that they can't take the piss out the tax man. HMRC lose this one (or lose the public battle by conceding to a CVA with a few pence in the pound), and it'll be open season in sticking 2 fingers up the taxation laws.

[jgl07]

I'm hoping this will actually work against Rangers. HMRC got their fingers burnt with the Harry Redknapp case, where they obviously thought they had a solid case, so I think they will now be pursuing Rangers with even more zeal to show the UK football community that they can't take the piss out the tax man. HMRC lose this one (or lose the public battle by conceding to a CVA with a few pence in the pound), and it'll be open season in sticking 2 fingers up the taxation laws.

Exactly.

The whole thing was started by the Big Tax Case (now estimated at £75 million) and the Wee Tax Case (4 million).

Since the takeover a further £14 million has been acrued in unpaid income tax, national insurance and VAT.

Out of a total debt estimated at £93 million, HMRC would get around £11 million from a 13 pence in the pound CVA. Thast would not even cover the £14 million upaid tax since the Whyte takeover which would not have happened but for the two tax cases.

So chasing Rangers for tax fiddling would lose them around £3 million if they accept a CVA! They would become a laughing stock (especially following the dodgy 'Arry case).

[Hongkong Phooey]

Sorry if posted earlier in the thread - think I've read most of it but you never know! I just got this from an Admin.FC supporting mate. Dunno the truth in it......

START
Some of these are crazy; we owe over a grand to a wee pub in Bearsden and £400 to a mini market in Milngavie! Also, over £300k owed to Man City- is that still us paying off the Weiss loan? Plus, I'm sure Whyte said we had paid Rapid the Jelavic money...we still owe them over a million!

A K Ray, Ross Hall Hospital, Glasgow £150
ADI UK, Preston £7620
AS St Etienne, France £252,212.39
ASL, East Sussex £2514
Acies Group, Edinburgh £2340
Adrian Coll, Balloch £1600
Alan Duncan, Glasgow £1400
Alexander West Property, Glasgow £2807
Alison Walker TV, Bearsden £600
Alliance Video, Surrey £204
Aon Limited, London £14,151
Arena Imaging, Derby £336
Argyll and Bute Council £406.80
Arsenal Football Club £136,560
Astra Hygiene Supplies, Dumbarton £61.27
Audi Stirling £396.05
Azure Support Services, Macclesfield £523,949.71
Azzurri Scotland, Burnley £34.63
BTWShiells, Belfast £2917.39
Barr Environmental Limited, Cummnock £264
Base Soccer Agency, London £52,560
Bauer Radio Ltd (Radio Clyde) £702
Beyard Services, Beith £5559.60
Bhutta’s Newsagents, Glasgow £567.45
Big Think Agency, Glasgow £14,265.60
Blooms UK Limited, Glasgow £70
Brabners, Manchester £12,999
Brentwood Estates, Manchester £42,963.06
Brian Proudfoot, Glasgow £2,802
British Gas £1,562.42
BT £1,292.13
Business Cost Consultants, Glasgow £6,240.60
Business Stream, Edinburgh £9,727.22
CNP Professional, Cheshire £719.96
CRE8, Gloucester £68,406.70
Cairn Financial, London £4,127.60
Cairns & Scott Caterhire, Glasgow £762
Cameron Presentations, Glasgow £8,795.99
Campbell Medical Supplies, Paisley £3,386.73
Camtec, Herts £552
Canniesburn Taxis, Bearsden £269.69
Capital Solutions, Edinburgh £11,423.40
Capito Ltd, Livingston £1,049.69
Carberry’s Coaches, Portadown Co Armagh £1,200
Carnival Chaos Production, Edinburgh £672
Carol Govan, Glasgow £600
Cask Productions, Glasgow £1,980
Cask Sports, Glasgow £2,919.60
Catercare Scotland, Stewarton £420
Charlton Chauffeur Drive, Glasgow £792
Chelsea FC £238,345.43
Childcare Vouchers, London £1,143.74
Chilli It, Chester £416.52
Chris Clarke, Kilmarnock £150
Christine Siebelt, Milngavie £1,100
Citrus Office Solutions, Lancashire £4,304.24
City Electrical Factors, Glasgow £215.40
Clyde Productions, Glasgow £180
Coca Cola £10,133.91
Colin Suggett, Sunderland £741.80
Collstream Limited, Derby £5,779.37
Collyer Bristow, London £40,691.22
Colours Agency Glasgow £1,980
Computer Links, Livingston £2,146.32
Computershare Investor Service, Bristol, £23,855.03
Craig Services & Access East Sussex £900
Culture & Sport Glasgow £10,338.96
Daily Record & Sunday Mail £312
DealBureau Commercial Finance, Southend £10,000
Decco Limited, Glasgow £174.72
Dell Computer Corporation, Berkshire £272.85
Direct Medical Imaging, Lancashire £230
Disclosure Scotland £372
Dominique S Byrne, Nuffield Hospital, Glasgow £160
Dr David A S Marshall, Bridge of Weir £160
Dundas & Wilson, Edinburgh £24,027.84
E.ON £8,827.14
Eagle Consulting, Inverness £40
Eagle Couriers, Bathgate £96.60
Eden Springs, Blantyre £644.64
Edinburgh Audi £5,197.08
Electrical Was te Recycling, County
Durham £18
Enterprise Rent-a-Car, Stirling £9,000
Events Audio Visual, Clydebank £300
Exchequer Corporate Finance , Surrey £4,000
Executive Hire, Harlow £1,060
FES FM, Stirling £80,874.93
FL Memo, London £116.86
FX Signs, Glasgow £15,546.56
G Media Mangement, Cheltenham £995
G4S, Surrey £295,036.24
GTG Training, Glasgow £396
Gareth Neil Design, Glasgow £3,200
Gerry McGeoch, Glasgow £150
Glasgow Audi £1,041.62
Glasgow City Council £5,000
Glasgow City Council (Council Tax) £2,008.21
Glasgow Leading Attractions (The Willow Tea Rooms) £1,525
Glasgow Taxis £TBC
Glencairn Crystal Studio, East Kilbide £354
Gordon McKay, Blackridge £150
HOBS Reprographics, Glasgow £270.15
HSS Hire Service £67.10
Hamilton Brothers, Bishopton £115.56
Hay McKerron Associates, Milngavie £3,600
Hepscott Water Systems, Morpeth £1,190.28
Hrvoje Bojanic Beethoveova, Zagreb, Croatia £2,898.42
Hutchesons Eductational Trust, Glasgow £550
ILC Media, Preston £2,040
IMG Media, Chiswick £180
Impact Signs, Cumbernauld £9,482.79
Integrated Cleaning Management, Hampshire £3,329.19
Iris Chorus Application Software, Devon £5,973.60
Iris Ticketing, Devon £37,210.42
Iron Mountain, Livingston £1,271.16
JCM Business Consulting, Paisley £2,745
JJB Sports £19,390.59
James Gordon (Engineers), Galston £1,437.68
Jewson, Glasgow £930.60
Joe Lennon Picture Framing, Bearsden £840
John Deere, Gloucester £41,191.59
K7X, Ayr, £240
Kalamazoo Secure Solutions, Birmingham £4,017
Keith Hawley, Glasgow £2,600
Kevin Cameron Radio Service, Paisley £600
Kube Networks, Glasgow £7,672.08
L & S Litho, Glasgow £17,035.04
Lothian Power Clean, Larkhall £194.34
LSK Supplies, Glasgow £178.58
Lawrie Furnishings, Paisley £607.20
Limelight Networks , Arizona £2,333.49
Link Seating Limited, Worcestershire £606.98
Loomis UK, Nottingham £2,248.08
Louis Grace Electrical, Glasgow £1,087.84
Lyco Direct Limited , Milton Keynes £2,381.27
MSM Solicitors, Paisley £420
MacGregor Industrial Supplies, Inverness £106.76
Mackinnon Partners, Gourock £200
Manchester City FC £328,248.71
Manea Florin Bucharest £37,500
Mar Hall, Bishopton £5,511.90
Marsh Ltd UK, Norwich £779.10
Martin Dawes, Warrington £654.74
Media House, Glasgow £19,200
MediaCom, Edinburgh £11,544.42
Menzies Hotels, Derbyshire £257.40
Michael Douglas, Glasgow £100
Milngavie Mini Market £413.29
Modular Property Holdings, Glasgow £20,930.22
Motif Promotional Clothing, Glasgow £27.29
Murray Group Holdings, Edinburgh £278,964.30
Nairn Brown (Glasgow) £1,492.50
National Car Rental, Leicester £162.52
Navyblue Design Group, Edinburgh £6,960
Newline Products, Glasgow £7,001
Newsquest (Herald & Times £1,500
Nexo S.A., France £1,799.37
Nicola Young, Glasgow £3,500
Noble Grossart, Edinburgh £18,612
Nordic Scouting, Oslo £20,000
North Glasgow College £11,041.80
OHSS, Edinburgh £234
OfficeFurnitureOnline.co.uk, Dumfires £338.40
Ooyala, California £733.92
Opal Telecom £169.72
Orebro SK £150,000
Oxford Hotels & Inns (Carnoustie) £3,709.96
PR Newswire Europe £300
PTS - Plumbing Trade Supplies, Leicester £30.42
Paramed, Howwood £1,050
Parklands Country Club, Glasgow £500
Parks of Hamilton £7,256
Paton Plant, York £1,450.16
Perform Group, Middlesex £346,097.43
Pineapple Aroundshot, Co Durham £2,316.96
Pineapple Photographic, Co Durham £5,875
Ping Network Solutions, Glasgow £4,020.25
Plum Films, Edinburgh £3,000
Posh Deli, Glasgow £260
Postage by Phone, Essex £510.80
Premier Cash Registers, Glasgow £12,600
Prime Commercial Properties
Management, London £10,805.53
Professional Pre-Season Tours (Libero), Glasgow £60,000
Quick Shift Tyre Service, Glasgow £48
R.F.Brown, Hamilton £1,681.44
RBS WorldPay, Cambridge £180.66
RS Components Limited, Northants £204.95
Rangers Lotteries Ltd, Glasgow £105.80
Reed Business Information, Surrey £2,764.80
Renfrewshire Council HQ £108
Restore Scotland, Paisley £579.74
Rigby Taylor Limited, Bolton £10,762.16
Rodgers Sercurity Systems, Glasgow £342.50
Ross Hall Hospital, Glasgow £770.50
Ross Promotional, Glasgow £1,022.88
Royal Mail £3,262.54
SDL Group, Glasgow £1,350
SG World, Cheshire £577.56
SIR Teknologi, West Sussex £TBC
SK Rapid, Austria £1,011,763.44
STRI, West Yorkshire £17.28
Saffery Champness, Glasgow £31,028.01
Scot-West Business Forms, Glasgow £749.60
Scotprint, Haddington £7,514
Scotrae Productions, Greenock £17,058.94
Scottish Ambulance Service £8,438.40
Scottish Hydro Electric £62,527.30
Scottish Power £302.44
Search Promotional Merchandise, Buckinghamshire £6,240
Shanks Waste Management, Southampton £122.58
Sharon Agnew, Glasgow £460
Shawfield Timber, Glasgow, £786.24
Shell UK £7,637.94
Shields Land Rover, Glasgow £246.75
Shred-it Glasgow £444
Sign Plus, Dunfermline £2,473.22
Signature Industries, London £1,507.90
Simplewaste Solutions, Clydebank £17,626.26
Sinclair Pharmacy, Glasgow £1,909.79
Slater Menswear , Glasgow £688.31
Solutions.tv, Glasgow £2,652
Sound Acoustic Productions, Glasgow £12,000
Souters Irrigation Services, Cumbernauld £456
Spike Multiedia, Giffnock £5,312.50
Sporting iD, Tyne and Wear £144.70
Sportopps.com, Belfast £150
Sports Alliance, Bury £2,006.65
Sports Revolution, London £5,034.52
Stellar Football, London £72,000
Stirling Fire Protection £1,149.30
Stockline Plastics, Glasgow £258
Strathclyde Police £51,882
Striking Imagery, Cumbernauld £113.51
Stuart MacMorran, Clydebank £422.50
Summit Asset Management, Surrey £70,555.88
Susan Thomson Your Sonsie Face, Glasgow £40
TNT £1,255.39
Tabs FM, London, £1,980
Tellcomm Limited, West Midlands £6,435.89
The Arco Group, Hull £443.43
The Brite Bulb, Bishopbriggs £3,209.64
The Burnbrae, Bearsden £1,403.88
The Business & Property Bureau, Bearsden £7,376
The Business Incentives Group, Glasgow £1,893.60
The City of Edinburgh Council £90
The Fees Company, Edinburgh £118.16
The Financial Times £3,480
The Scottish Football League £3,859.92
The Premier Property Group, Edinburgh £103,210.96
Thistle International Freight, Paisley £128.42
Thistle Storage Equipment, Cumbernauld £140.40
Thomas Cook Sport, Manchester £129,216.56
Ticket Team, Netherlands £873.36
Ticketline Network, Manchester £11,668.67
Trade UK (Screwfix) £77.01
Trident Trust Company, Jersey £40,689.90
UK Fast, Manchester £689.78
US Citta di Palermo, Italy £205,513.04
Umbro £1,756.05
University of the West of Scotland £135
Vodafone £204
Voicescape, Manchester £786.84
William Henderson, Glasgow £275
Yuill & Kyle Solicitors, Glasgow £1,486.80
Celtic FC £40,337
Dundee United FC £65,981.49
Dunfermline Athletic FC £83,370.13
Heart of Midlothian FC £800,000
Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC £39,805
SPL £22,500
SFA 11,089.04
HM Revenue & Customs £14,372,042
Ticketus, London £26,700,000
Debenture Holders (various) £7,736,000
Season Ticket Holders (various) £TBC
Employees Various £TBC

[jodjam]

Posh Deli, Glasgow £260

Surely a contradiction in terms or were the huns getting their Spam cut into little flute shaped bites.

[The Falcon]

Love this thread and posts on it , i know squat about the ins and outs , but are the huns going into the blender ?, and is CW a patsy ?


Thought this from the start and that others are pulling the strings here. Nothing has happened since Valentines Day to change my mind, As the extent of RFC's financial plight became apparent, in that Rangers appear to be in trouble even before the BTC comes into play, I am even more convinced this is part of plot to relieve the taxpayer, and others, of a lot of money.

The authorities really need to look at how players can be "bought" and played yet not paid for. Wallace an example and it appears Man C have not been paid in full for the loan of Weiss. Jelevic has been sold on again yet Vienna still await payment of part of teh original deal. It why now appear obvious why Stephen Thomson didnt sell them Goodwillie yet, at the time, Traynor and his cohorts gave ST a pretty rough ride and asked answers why he "didnt do what's best for his club". He did and that much is now clear.

Why are Dunfermline on the list? It was widely reported that they had been paid when clearly they havent been. I have never really bought into this whole press being deliberately and calculatingly biased towards the OF but I am now seriously questioning this given whats happened recently and previousy with the nonsense printed to alienate KT et al. which ultimately benefitted the OF.

[Baker9]

Some of these are crazy; we owe over a grand to a wee pub in Bearsden and £400 to a mini market in Milngavie! Also, over £300k owed to Man City- is that still us paying off the Weiss loan? Plus, I'm sure Whyte said we had paid Rapid the Jelavic money...we still owe them over a million!

If the full list of creditors from the adminstrator report (pages 48-50) was to be printed out in font 12 (not the tiny font in the report), it would take up 8-10 pages of A4.

It would make a good game for a rainy Easter to speculate what these debts are for. You mention Milngavie Mini Market and I imagine the first team not having anything to eat at Murray Park, the regular suppliers are refusing to supply, Ally jumps in his car and nips into Milngavie and with promises of possible contracts and 'just invoice the club, we are Rangers' he comes back with cheese and onion crisps, mars bars, sandwiches and diet coke.

[Caversham Green]

There was a big bit about this on Sportsound the other night with St Mirren director Ken McGeough, the guy that was accused of cooking up a deal with CW. The whole thing about a ploy to buy St Mirren in case the Huns get liquidated was a piece of nonsence. It did sound a bit murky because he was using Collier & Bristow as his lawyers but there was nothing in it at all according to McGeough. His busainess partner , Paul Davies i think, was involved with Rangers though but that was something to do with building a community gym and a separate issue.

I think the media just put 2 + 2 and came up with some random number because it was a good story.

In fairness to Chick he was all over it.

You can listen to the podcast here ....http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot#playepisode3

I've listened to that now and take it back about Chick - he asked reasonable enough questions throughout. I can't say the same about McGeough though. His story is full of holes and he would have to have been incredibly naive or stupid not th see the dangers of his actions.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Knowing the founder and ex MD of Azure, it is pleasing to see them listed. Just wish she was still running them.

[Caversham Green]

Having the day off, I decided to exercise my mind to see if I could come up with Duff & Duffer's master plan that doesn't involve THE MIGHTY GLASGOOOOO RRRRRRANGERS going into liquidation. Here's my wizard wheeze.

An American VC, let's call them SClub7, set up two companies - let's call these Towering Wave 1 and Towering Wave 2.

TW1 buys Rangers for £1.15. It then sells the Rangers brand, player contracts and physical assets for say £25m to TW2, leaving all liabilities including major creditors, Ticketless and Hector, in TW1. With this £25m, they liquidate TW1 giving all creditors about 25p in the pound. A better deal than they could get if there is immediate liquidation.

Meanwhile, TW2 change their name to Rangers Football Club Ltd and reach an agreement with the SPL, SFA and Uefa that they are essentially the same entity as the football club ( or cheating tax dodgers as we know them ) as before and that their existing licence, status and trophy record remain.

Now, you may ask ' How do they get Craigie to agree to this ? ' . Well, go on then, ask.

Okay, they have given him £1.15 which equates to a 15% return on his original investment. They also give him a one way airline ticket to a South American country that does not have an extradition treaty with the UK. For good measure, they also give him a change of identity kit and lessons in Spanish/ Portuguese.

With CWG gone AWOL, I invite CavG to pick holes in this. :cb

Maybe I'm being thick but I'm not seeing the need for TW1 - unless you're suggesting that has already happened :dunno:. Other than that I think it's not far off what would happen if they go down the Newco route. Their problem would still be convincing UEFA that they weren't a new company. I doubt if they would have any problems with the other two given the noises (or lack of noises) that have been emanating from them recently.

Regarding CW, I don't think he's in as strong a position as he is claiming. He bought the club for a quid and proceeded to diminish its value by selling future revenues. As it stands, the club is not a going concern and has no net asset value, so it's worth about £1 less than he paid for it. If he doesn't agree to part with his shares the administrators could (and should IMO) conclude that the club cannot continue under his ownership and liquidate it.

[Geo_1875]

How are they allowed to play home games if they owe Strathclyde Police over £50k?

[Caversham Green]

Thought this from the start and that others are pulling the strings here. Nothing has happened since Valentines Day to change my mind, As the extent of RFC's financial plight became apparent, in that Rangers appear to be in trouble even before the BTC comes into play, I am even more convinced this is part of plot to relieve the taxpayer, and others, of a lot of money. There would appear to be a very fine line between what is happening at Ibrox and a large scale fraud.

The authorities really need to look at how players can be "bought" and played yet not paid for. Wallace an example and it appears Man C have not been paid in full for the loan of Weiss. Jelevic has been sold on again yet Vienna still await payment of part of teh original deal. It why now appear obvious why Stephen Thomson didnt sell them Goodwillie yet, at the time, Traynor and his cohorts gave ST a pretty rough ride and asked answers why he "didnt do what's best for his club". He did and that much is now clear.

Why are Dunfermline on the list? It was widely reported that they had been paid when clearly they havent been. I have never really bought into this whole press being deliberately and calculatingly biased towards the OF but I am now seriously questioning this given whats happened recently and previousy with the nonsense printed to alienate KT et al. which ultimately benefitted the OF.

It's crossed my mind that there's some image-laundering going on.

RFC in deep financial doo-doo and SDM needs them out of his empire so they need a patsy to buy it, clean out the debt and sell it on. Along comes just such a person, finances the purchase through the Ticketus deal and is then forced to take the club into administration - and possible liquidation. And then along comes a consortium headed by one of the previous directors (who got the club into the doo-doo in the first place) and rescues the club and gets it debt-free after the administration. Said former director is now a hero to the heaving masses while CW becomes the swivel-eyed bogeyman who is now seen as being responsible for all the club's former ills.

I haven't worked out Ticketus's role in all that yet though.

[steakbake]

How are they allowed to play home games if they owe Strathclyde Police over £50k?

A handshake solves a lot of problems.

[grunt]

How are they allowed to play home games if they owe Strathclyde Police over £50k?I would expect the admins are paying for current policing and that the debt relates to pre-admin times. There's a £204k expense item in the admin accounts for policing and security.

[snooky]

A handshake solves a lot of problems.

Aye, and does that no' get on yer goat.

[steakbake]

Aye, and does that no' get on yer goat.

It does but we're going to slaughter it at the next meeting..,

[Lucius Apuleius]

It does but we're going to slaughter it at the next meeting..,

So now they are getting slaughtered instead of *******??????

[Hibbyradge]

Aye, and does that no' get on yer goat.

Sorting the mess Rangers are in will take a lot of hard work.

The new owners will just have to roll up their trouser legs and get on with it.

[Kojock]

Aye, and does that no' get on yer goat.

No point in bleating about it though, thats what happens living in a nanny state...

[Fat Penlon]

I think that list of creditors puts to bed any ideas that this situation is purely down to the behaviour of craig whyte. Rangers have been racking up these debts since before whyte came in and should be punished accordingly for the corporate decisions they have made.

[Dan Sarf]

Sorting the mess Rangers are in will take a lot of hard work.

The new owners will just have to roll up their trouser legs and get on with it.

:top marks

[Hibrandenburg]

I think that list of creditors puts to bed any ideas that this situation is purely down to the behaviour of craig whyte. Rangers have been racking up these debts since before whyte came in and should be punished accordingly for the corporate decisions they have made.
Agreed. Surely there must be grounds for criminal charges buried in there somewhere. Everybody is talking about how to mop up the mess and ensure that Rangers are still a leading force in Scottish football instead of holding those responsable for this mess to account. It should be torches and pitchfork time at Hampden instead these con men are being treated like they've just been down on their luck and have no fault in the whole state of affairs. Or am I just so thick that I can't see the bigger picture?

[Hibrandenburg]

Sorting the mess Rangers are in will take a lot of hard work.

The new owners will just have to roll up their trouser legs and get on with it.

See what you've done there. Like it :-)

[Lucius Apuleius]

Sorting the mess Rangers are in will take a lot of hard work.

The new owners will just have to roll up their trouser legs and get on with it.

Which one?

[green glory]

The Herald are reporting about Bill Miller the American tycoon wanting to save them. ****** hope not.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

hurry up and wind the beggers down

[Part/Time Supporter]

I would expect the admins are paying for current policing and that the debt relates to pre-admin times. There's a £204k expense item in the admin accounts for policing and security.

:agree:

If the policing bill for a normal Rangers game is £50K, and £100K for a game against Celtic, then it makes sense. They've had three home games since going into administration (before today) - Killie, Hearts and Celtic. The police were threatening to not provide cover before the Killie game, so presumably the administrator has been paying them up front. The £50K debt cited in the report would relate to their last home game before administration (possibly the Dundee Utd cup game).

[Seveno]

Maybe I'm being thick but I'm not seeing the need for TW1 - unless you're suggesting that has already happened :dunno:. Other than that I think it's not far off what would happen if they go down the Newco route. Their problem would still be convincing UEFA that they weren't a new company. I doubt if they would have any problems with the other two given the noises (or lack of noises) that have been emanating from them recently.

Regarding CW, I don't think he's in as strong a position as he is claiming. He bought the club for a quid and proceeded to diminish its value by selling future revenues. As it stands, the club is not a going concern and has no net asset value, so it's worth about £1 less than he paid for it. If he doesn't agree to part with his shares the administrators could (and should IMO) conclude that the club cannot continue under his ownership and liquidate it.

My thoughts were that using the two companies means that the Rangers brand, licence, history etc isn't part of the liquidation process.

[Seveno]

I see that the rest of David Murray's empire, that was built on debt, continues to crumble.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/sir-david-murray-to-sell-core-business-as-debts-take-toll-1-2221170

He'll never be skint though. Just too bad on his employees.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i was reading the other day that murray is trying to buy the princes mall(waverley market) for 40p

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/scotland/sir-david-murray-set-to-buy-50m-princes-mall-for-only-40p-1-2197787


great, he will still have 60p left from the sale of the huns for a £1 :rolleyes:

[Spike Mandela]

It's crossed my mind that there's some image-laundering going on.

RFC in deep financial doo-doo and SDM needs them out of his empire so they need a patsy to buy it, clean out the debt and sell it on. Along comes just such a person, finances the purchase through the Ticketus deal and is then forced to take the club into administration - and possible liquidation. And then along comes a consortium headed by one of the previous directors (who got the club into the doo-doo in the first place) and rescues the club and gets it debt-free after the administration. Said former director is now a hero to the heaving masses while CW becomes the swivel-eyed bogeyman who is now seen as being responsible for all the club's former ills.

I haven't worked out Ticketus's role in all that yet though.

What, and you didn't suspect as such from day 1? Didn't take you for naive Cav.

[jgl07]

I think that list of creditors puts to bed any ideas that this situation is purely down to the behaviour of craig whyte. Rangers have been racking up these debts since before whyte came in and should be punished accordingly for the corporate decisions they have made.

Indeed.

Looking at some of the 'Football debts' I see Manchester City are owed £328,248. The only thing I can think of is the loan fee for Vladamir Weiss dating back to last season well before Whyte took over.

[CropleyWasGod]

Indeed.

Looking at some of the 'Football debts' I see Manchester City are owed £328,248. The only thing I can think of is the loan fee for Vladamir Weiss dating back to last season well before Whyte took over.

I am only following this thread briefly, in between dodging camel sheet, but in round terms RFC had at least £93m debt when CW took over. The £75m to HMRC for the BTC (and I am only taking the admins word on that), plus £18m to Lloyds. Add on all the other old debt that you're talking about, and one can see that that SDM's regime is probably more culpable than CW

[grunt]

This is fun

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/an-open-letter-to-murdo-fraser-msp-re-rangers-fc-in-administration/

[jgl07]

This is fun

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/an-open-letter-to-murdo-fraser-msp-re-rangers-fc-in-administration/

Oh dear.

Why does the Conservative MSP for Mid Scotland and Fife need to intevene on behalf of the tax-dodging soap-dodging dsgrace to Scottish Football?

[WindyMiller]

Oh dear.

Why does the Conservative MSP for Mid Scotland and Fife need to intevene on behalf of the tax-dodging soap-dodging dsgrace to Scottish Football?


They're the Establishment's Club?


:cb

[cabbageandribs1875]

This is fun

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/an-open-letter-to-murdo-fraser-msp-re-rangers-fc-in-administration/


he should STFU and concentrate all his energy in serving his constituency, instead of associating himself with the shame of scotland



TAX-DODGING CHEATS

[sparky]

I am only following this thread briefly, in between dodging camel sheet, but in round terms RFC had at least £93m debt when CW took over. The £75m to HMRC for the BTC (and I am only taking the admins word on that), plus £18m to Lloyds. Add on all the other old debt that you're talking about, and one can see that that SDM's regime is probably more culpable than CW

It has all been settled now. The 50 thousand loyal at Castle Grayskull held up some red cards to say "no to liquidation". Now I'm no financial expert but I believe that will be enough to save them. :aok:

If only the steerage passengers on the Titanic had thought of a similar scheme and said "no to sinking", think of the lives that could have been saved.

[snooky]

Oh dear.

Why does the Conservative MSP for Mid Scotland and Fife need to intevene on behalf of the tax-dodging soap-dodging dsgrace to Scottish Football?

The blue wagons are circling. :cb

[...WentToMowAnSPL]

Time to liquidise ... 8032

[greenginger]

Dunfermline F C is probably in his constituncy yet he his pleading for help for the Club that shafted them, instead of trying to help the Club he should be assisting.

I Know what to do with the letters pleading for cash from the Tories at election time. A rather short and to the point letter with my views on tax dodgers and con-men will accompany their mail in the return to sender envelope. :greengrin

[...WentToMowAnSPL]

Dunfermline F C is probably in his constituncy yet he his pleading for help for the Club that shafted them, instead of trying to help the Club he should be assisting.

I Know what to do with the letters pleading for cash from the Tories at election time. A rather short and to the point letter with my views on tax dodgers and con-men will accompany their mail in the return to sender envelope. :greengrin

Absolutely - it's incredible the hypocrisy and bias that surrounds any allegation against the ugly two... Imagine what the English media will think if the government are seen to bail out a failed scottish club after all the banking problems... ( just testing out the new avatar :greengrin)

[johnbc70]

This is fun

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/an-open-letter-to-murdo-fraser-msp-re-rangers-fc-in-administration/

This really makes me mad. Why use Scottish Parliament headed note paper if he was writing in a personal capacity, he knew fine well what he was doing and was clearly trying to exert some kind of influence. A disgrace and he should be pulled up for it.

[Jim44]

If, in the end it, it comes down to liquidation, what are the implications for Rangers? Can their assets, stadium, players etc. be sold off to meet debts or do all creditors lose what they are due?

[John_the_angus_hibby]

This really makes me mad. Why use Scottish Parliament headed note paper if he was writing in a personal capacity, he knew fine well what he was doing and was clearly trying to exert some kind of influence. A disgrace and he should be pulled up for it.

The guy is a waste of space. A dick.


Sent from another universe!

[jgl07]

If, in the end it, it comes down to liquidation, what are the implications for Rangers? Can their assets, stadium, players etc. be sold off to meet debts or do all creditors lose what they are due?

Their players will have zero value as their contracts revert to the SPL(?) on liquidation. In any event the players with any value will have their contracts declared void and move as free agents to the club of their choice.

Ibrox probably has little value other than as a stadium. Part of the main stand is listed so they will have to work around this in any redevelopment as with the case of Highbury. But Govan is not Islington! Most likely it will be sold to the Newco. The Scottish Gobvernment wil block any development prior to 2014 as it is a venue for the Commonwealth Games (Rugby Sevens). It could be sold toa property company and then rented back to the Newco

Murray Park seems to be mired in legal problems in the event of change of use so this could end up with the Newco assuming that they have the cash and want a training ground. There could be an alternative training facility on the edge of Edinburgh becoming available soon!

They have no other viable assets other than the club name, crest and trophy cabinet. Another for the Newco?

Rangers assets will not raise that much. The cash that is available to the creditors will be very limited and most will come from the company taking over and creating the Newco in return for the stadium and the club regalia (and history?).

[Peevemor]

This is fun

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/an-open-letter-to-murdo-fraser-msp-re-rangers-fc-in-administration/


Oh dear.

Why does the Conservative MSP for Mid Scotland and Fife need to intevene on behalf of the tax-dodging soap-dodging dsgrace to Scottish Football?

Surely you're impressed by the lengthy, well considered arguments backing up his statements? :cool2:

[WindyMiller]

Their players will have zero value as their contracts revert to the SPL(?) on liquidation. In any event the players with any value will have their contracts declared void and move as free agents to the club of their choice.

Ibrox probably has little value other than as a stadium. Part of the main stand is listed so they will have to work around this in any redevelopment as with the case of Highbury. But Govan is not Islington! Most likely it will be sold to the Newco. The Scottish Gobvernment wil block any development prior to 2014 as it is a venue for the Commonwealth Games (Rugby Sevens). It could be sold toa property company and then rented back to the Newco

Murray Park seems to be mired in legal problems in the event of change of use so this could end up with the Newco assuming that they have the cash and want a training ground. There could be an alternative training facility on the edge of Edinburgh becoming available soon!

They have no other viable assets other than the club name, crest and trophy cabinet. Another for the Newco?

Rangers assets will not raise that much. The cash that is available to the creditors will be very limited and most will come from the company taking over and creating the Newco in return for the stadium and the club regalia (and history?).

I believe the car park is a pretty valuable asset.

[grunt]

I believe the car park is a pretty valuable asset.

From D&P report - what does it mean?
The Albion Road Car Park is subject to a finance agreement and covers an area of approximately 2.6 hectares adjacent to Ibrox Stadium. It is anticipated that the Club will gain right, title and interest to the car park in 2023.

[Seveno]

Absolutely - it's incredible the hypocrisy and bias that surrounds any allegation against the ugly two... Imagine what the English media will think if the government are seen to bail out a failed scottish club after all the banking problems... ( just testing out the new avatar :greengrin)

Avatar of the week ! Love it.

[Seveno]

This is fun

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/an-open-letter-to-murdo-fraser-msp-re-rangers-fc-in-administration/

This is the guy that wanted to liquidate the Scottish Conservative Party.

[Eyrie]

This is the guy that wanted to liquidate the Scottish Conservative Party.
Fraser must be in favour of euthanasia but opposed to capital punishment.

[greenginger]

https://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msps/currentmsps/27638.aspx

Murdo Fraser's contact details, if anyone would like to explain to him corrupt, tax dodging , cheating football clubs together with their bigoted supporters are last thing a modern Scotland needs and their extinction would be a welcome bonus to the Scottish Footballing Community.

[johnbc70]

https://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msps/currentmsps/27638.aspx

Murdo Fraser's contact details, if anyone would like to explain to him corrupt, tax dodging , cheating football clubs together with their bigoted supporters are last thing a modern Scotland needs and their extinction would be a welcome bonus to the Scottish Footballing Community.

Sent a short email to Ruth Davidson (his boss and Leader of the Scottish Conservatives) for her view on the letter and asking what the punishment was for breaching the Scottish Parliament Code of Conduct, as he clearly has.

7.2.14 Members are reminded that official stationery and mail is for use only as part of official Parliamentary business. It must not be used for any other purpose, including party political purposes.

It really does make my blood boil that MSPs think they can somehow influence this. What with the shoddy journalism that is happening all around us and now MSPs getting involved it makes me think Scottish Football is an even bigger joke than I first thought.

[Liberal Hibby]

The guy is a waste of space. A dick.




I was at Aberdeen University at the same time as Murdo Fraser (which obviously was a long time ago) and he was the most reasonable of his cohort of sub racist student Tories at the time. He was far too grand to even consider football as sport, but clever enough to avoid the various antics that got his contemporaries shut down by the not exactly left wing Norman Tebbit.

The fact he supports football in the first place is a surprise. And as he has previously always tried to take his dodgy colleagues into his more mainstream positions - I am surprised he has shown his true colours on this...

[1875godsgift]

https://www.scottish.parliament.uk/msps/currentmsps/27638.aspx

Murdo Fraser's contact details, if anyone would like to explain to him corrupt, tax dodging , cheating football clubs together with their bigoted supporters are last thing a modern Scotland needs and their extinction would be a welcome bonus to the Scottish Footballing Community.

I've sent an e-mail, jesus try to get through their encryption code! Took me 6 attempts!

[down-the-slope]

From D&P report - what does it mean?

Car park IS a valuble asset (it was where the failed Mega Casino was meant to go) the wording from D&P makes it sound as if they have mortgaged it in some manner / leased it to those who are operating it as car park?....

More likley the latter - is there an income line in accounts that would tally with this?

[grunt]

... is there an income line in accounts that would tally with this?
Not that you can tell - it could be included in "other"

Income
Ticket Sales 708,958
Programme Sales 20,221
Hospitality Sales 94,318
Food and Beverage Sales 138,358
Stadium Tours 5,373
Other Sales 53,006
1,020,234

[down-the-slope]

Not that you can tell - it could be included in "other"

Income
Ticket Sales 708,958
Programme Sales 20,221
Hospitality Sales 94,318
Food and Beverage Sales 138,358
Stadium Tours 5,373
Other Sales 53,006
1,020,234


Those are all sales figures rather than income - sponsorship / bonds / TV / rent etc etc

[Caversham Green]

What, and you didn't suspect as such from day 1? Didn't take you for naive Cav.

:greengrin Well people keep telling me I'm naive and gullible, so I suppose I must be.

I had always thought of it as a possibility since Paul Murray's involvement was first reported, but I didn't and still don't don't think it's the most likely scenario - it's all a bit too high risk.

[Caversham Green]

My thoughts were that using the two companies means that the Rangers brand, licence, history etc isn't part of the liquidation process.

I see. I don't think the procedure you describe is far removed from what would happen if they go down the Newco route. I wonder if using two companies within the same group could get round the UEFA problem - i.e. they're the same entity and have just moved companies for 'corporate structure' purposes. Rangers FC plc has several dormant subsidiary companies.

[greenginger]

I see. I don't think the procedure you describe is far removed from what would happen if they go down the Newco route. I wonder if using two companies within the same group could get round the UEFA problem - i.e. they're the same entity and have just moved companies for 'corporate structure' purposes. Rangers FC plc has several dormant subsidiary companies.



Are there not a whole host of regulations covering asset shifting specifically drafted to prevent companies moving their assets away from their creditors ?

[Caversham Green]

Are there not a whole host of regulations covering asset shifting specifically drafted to prevent companies moving their assets away from their creditors ?

Yes, there are - there's also a whole host of ways getting round them. I doubt if any of them would do the job here though - I think the Uefa problem is the biggest obstacle to Newco.

Maybe a bribe would fix it.

[snooky]

Yes, there are - there's also a whole host of ways getting round them. I doubt if any of them would do the job here though - I think the Uefa problem is the biggest obstacle to Newco.

Maybe a bribe would fix it.

No chance of RFC doing anything illegal - even if they thought they might get away with it.
You're way off the mark there, pal. Shame on you. :tsk tsk:

[Caversham Green]

No chance of RFC doing anything illegal - even if they thought they might get away with it.
You're way off the mark there, pal. Shame on you. :tsk tsk:

I'm ashamed of myself for even thinking such a thing.

[Brando7]

A CVA can only be proposed by a company if it is insolvent or contingently insolvent. The CVA requires the approval of 75% of the voting creditors.

So that 207 out of the 276 needing to agree to a CVA........that a tall order imo

[grunt]

The CVA requires the approval of 75% of the voting creditors.
By value.

[Brando7]

By value.

oops :greengrin

Once a CVA is approved by 75% of the creditors (by value) and 50% of the creditors (by number), all creditors are legally bound by it whether they voted for it or not.

still a tall order

[Eyrie]

Assuming the BTC goes against the Huns, then HMRC are owed £93m of the £134m, or 69.4%. They will be very much in the driving seat.

Be interesting though to know the actual valuations placed on the assets rather than simply the accounts value.

[WindyMiller]

Assuming the BTC goes against the Huns, then HMRC are owed £93m of the £134m, or 69.4%. They will be very much in the driving seat.

Be interesting though to know the actual valuations placed on the assets rather than simply the accounts value.

There's certainly a large chunk of land.


http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&sugexp=frgbld&cp=6&gs_id=5&xhr=t&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&ion=1&biw=1440&bih=775&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=ibrox&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=ibrox&cid=0,0,18393690896640910992&ei=CQSCT_z8G_OU0QWEjpGZBw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&sqi=2&ved=0CBQQ_BI

[cabbageandribs1875]

when exactly is the BTC due to start anyway ?

[PaulSmith]

when exactly is the BTC due to start anyway ?


The case is actually finished already but the judges are still deliberating their verdict.

[cabbageandribs1875]

The case is actually finished already but the judges are still deliberating their verdict.



ah ok, ta :aok: plenty of brown envelopes will be exchanging hands :greengrin

[Jack]

I thought this thread would be closed for the bank holiday???

[Hibs Class]

The case is actually finished already but the judges are still deliberating their verdict.


Presumably every day they deliberate is another day's interest to be added to the bill?

[Granton Stanton]

question for the accountants amongst us - it says in the duff report that since they were appointed there have been further trading losses (£2m? or so) - I though that the administrators had to run on at least a break even cash flow, theyt legally werent allowed to run up further debts?

[matty_f]

question for the accountants amongst us - it says in the duff report that since they were appointed there have been further trading losses (£2m? or so) - I though that the administrators had to run on at least a break even cash flow, theyt legally werent allowed to run up further debts?


I don't know the answer to that, however on a similar(ish) point, did I read that Sonny Aluko had been offered a contract for next season? How does that work, then? :dunno:

Pishest administration ever!:rolleyes:

[blindsummit]

question for the accountants amongst us - it says in the duff report that since they were appointed there have been further trading losses (£2m? or so) - I though that the administrators had to run on at least a break even cash flow, theyt legally werent allowed to run up further debts?

in a normal administration yes. But this is the peepuls adminstration and will follow follow it's own rules.....

[Granton Stanton]

in a normal administration yes. But this is the peepuls adminstration and will follow follow it's own rules.....

would appear so. The tag line for this should really be "If Carlsberg did football club meltdowns....." - it has been a cracker.

[Brando7]

question for the accountants amongst us - it says in the duff report that since they were appointed there have been further trading losses (£2m? or so) - I though that the administrators had to run on at least a break even cash flow, theyt legally werent allowed to run up further debts?

Taking a guess but was stated last week there was £3.2million in the clubs accounts when D&F took over that got transfered to their accounts so unless they using that to cover the losses?

Would also like to know why Swally McCoist getting so involved in the bidding process speaking to the bidders about their offers, I would have though that be nothing to so with anyone other than D&F?

[blindsummit]

Would also like to know why Swally McCoist getting so involved in the bidding process speaking to the bidders about their offers, I would have though that be nothing to so with anyone other than D&F?

This puzzled me too. Quite frankly it's got diddly squat to do with him and he should have no part in any discussions with bidders. Just another curious aspect to this "adminstration" of Rangers.

[greenginger]

Taking a guess but was stated last week there was £3.2million in the clubs accounts when D&F took over that got transfered to their accounts so unless they using that to cover the losses?

Would also like to know why Swally McCoist getting so involved in the bidding process speaking to the bidders about their offers, I would have though that be nothing to so with anyone other than D&F?


I 'd guess the £ 3.2 million would have come from the sale of Jelivic to Everton. If I was a creditor of Rangers I would be raging.

[CentreLine]

Today's Herald reports that the latest mega-rich individual wishes to discuss his plans with Ally McCoist. It appears Mr Ng's personal fortune sits at £40m (surely not big enough in these days when people count in billions) and he plans to set aside £12m of that to satisfy creditors. Is it just me or do these sums not add up? His reported personal fortune is less than a third of Rangers potential debt and yet he plans to put little more than a quarter of that personal fortune in to the club. I can confirm that this tax payer is underwhelmed. It looks to me more like Mr Ng is on a personal promotion trip rather than being a serious bidder.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/ng-on-mission-to-meet-mccoist-and-taste-european-glory.17268085

[John_the_angus_hibby]

"My mentors taught me how to shut up, don't show off and never blow hot air," he said. "I'm from the old school of thinking, where you don't conduct your business in public. My mission will be accomplished when another young boy watches Rangers lift a European trophy."

In which case why are you spouting so much pish before business is concluded? You're not even a preferred bidder yet?? And as for the last bit, pass me the sick bag!!


Sent from another universe!

[ancienthibby]

"My mentors taught me how to shut up, don't show off and never blow hot air," he said. "I'm from the old school of thinking, where you don't conduct your business in public. My mission will be accomplished when another young boy watches Rangers lift a European trophy."

In which case why are you spouting so much pish before business is concluded? You're not even a preferred bidder yet?? And as for the last bit, pass me the sick bag!!


Sent from another universe!

And there's more!:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2127457/Rangers-administrators-warn-taxman-stop-deal.html

Talk about buying a pig in a poke!:cb

[Keith_M]

There's certainly a large chunk of land.


http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&sugexp=frgbld&cp=6&gs_id=5&xhr=t&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&ion=1&biw=1440&bih=775&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=ibrox&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=ibrox&cid=0,0,18393690896640910992&ei=CQSCT_z8G_OU0QWEjpGZBw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&sqi=2&ved=0CBQQ_BI


Call me childish if you like but I added a review (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&sugexp=frgbld&cp=6&gs_id=5&xhr=t&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&ion=1&biw=1440&bih=775&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=ibrox&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=ibrox&cid=0,0,18393690896640910992&ei=CQSCT_z8G_OU0QWEjpGZBw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&sqi=2&ved=0CBQQ_BI)


:greengrin

[greenginger]

With all this talk about the Big Tax Case result, Creditors agreements, and Whyte's shares in the Huns; the footballing punishments seem to have been completely forgotten.

If the double player contracts are proven could Rangers still be emptied from the SPL ?

Also the SFA wanted a list of all payments made to players in the last 10 years that were not part of the players contracts to be sent to them by last Friday.

I wonder if Duff and Duffer have complied with that one, or quoted some legal jargon to allow them to ignore the request.

On a different note, I wonder if their is any mail with the PBS return address waiting to be opened this morning. :aok:

[H18sry]

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/an-open-letter-to-murdo-fraser-msp-re-rangers-fc-in-administration/

[Keith_M]

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/an-open-letter-to-murdo-fraser-msp-re-rangers-fc-in-administration/


Too slow, somebody added that a few pages back :wink:


This one (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?228245-Rangers-In-Administration-(merged)&p=3171413&viewfull=1#post3171413)

[Spike Mandela]

And there's more!:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2127457/Rangers-administrators-warn-taxman-stop-deal.html

Talk about buying a pig in a poke!:cb

First indication, as far as I know from the administrators that a deal with HMRC is not a sure thing.

[StevieC]

Too slow, somebody added that a few pages back :wink:


This one (http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?228245-Rangers-In-Administration-(merged)&p=3171413&viewfull=1#post3171413)

Although the latest update on CW related court actions .. HERE (http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/craig-whyte-and-his-court-actions-andrew-ellis-v-whyte/)

.. suggests that it will be a very long time before the legal wranglings have settled and someone will actually be in a position to "purchase" Rangers and even attempt a CVA.

The main issue seems to be that D&P are claiming that CW does not have ownership of Rangers and this would require a long drawn out court case to prove.

Without going down this route someone would need to buy CW's shares, and CW has intimated that he has personal investment/assurances (not least the Ticketus debt) so I suspect he would want around £30m for his shares to cover his back against any court action from a "bumped" Ticketus.

Will someone pay CW £30m then invest another £25m in the hope of a CVA being accepted? IMO, I doubt it. Liquidation seems to remain as the only possibility .. at the moment.

[Onion]

Although the latest update on CW related court actions .. HERE (http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/craig-whyte-and-his-court-actions-andrew-ellis-v-whyte/)

.. suggests that it will be a very long time before the legal wranglings have settled and someone will actually be in a position to "purchase" Rangers and even attempt a CVA.

The main issue seems to be that D&P are claiming that CW does not have ownership of Rangers and this would require a long drawn out court case to prove.

Without going down this route someone would need to buy CW's shares, and CW has intimated that he has personal investment/assurances (not least the Ticketus debt) so I suspect he would want around £30m for his shares to cover his back against any court action from a "bumped" Ticketus.

Will someone pay CW £30m then invest another £25m in the hope of a CVA being accepted? IMO, I doubt it. Liquidation seems to remain as the only possibility .. at the moment.

Liquidation has been the likely outcome for the Huns for quite some time, yet these Admins just carry on burning cash, taking their cut and paying out for expensive court cases - all paid for by the creditors such as HMRC (YOU/ME). At what point do the creditors stand up call a halt to this joke of an Adminstration ? All that D&F are doing is delaying the inevitable and playing monopoly with our money !

[CentreLine]

Liquidation has been the likely outcome for the Huns for quite some time, yet these Admins just carry on burning cash, taking their cut and paying out for expensive court cases - all paid for by the creditors such as HMRC (YOU/ME). At what point do the creditors stand up call a halt to this joke of an Adminstration ? All that D&F are doing is delaying the inevitable and playing monopoly with our money !

:agree: I have to agree with you there Onion. Surely there is a mechanism whereby the creditor(s) can say enough is enough. How on earth can this shower justify making losses of twice the income of the club since they took over, then add on their own expenses, which just happen to all but equal the income, and leave you and me as tax payers to pick up a substantial number of the pieces. It's just plain wrong IMO

[greenginger]

Although the latest update on CW related court actions .. HERE (http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/craig-whyte-and-his-court-actions-andrew-ellis-v-whyte/)

.. suggests that it will be a very long time before the legal wranglings have settled and someone will actually be in a position to "purchase" Rangers and even attempt a CVA.

The main issue seems to be that D&P are claiming that CW does not have ownership of Rangers and this would require a long drawn out court case to prove.

Without going down this route someone would need to buy CW's shares, and CW has intimated that he has personal investment/assurances (not least the Ticketus debt) so I suspect he would want around £30m for his shares to cover his back against any court action from a "bumped" Ticketus.

Will someone pay CW £30m then invest another £25m in the hope of a CVA being accepted? IMO, I doubt it. Liquidation seems to remain as the only possibility .. at the moment.


And Duff and Duffer expect one of the bidders to hand over £ 1 million in way of a non-returnable deposit to become preferred bidder. :confused:

[John_the_angus_hibby]

And Duff and Duffer expect one of the bidders to hand over £ 1 million in way of a non-returnable deposit to become preferred bidder. :confused:

It's just for keeping the Duff and Duffer show on the road for a month longer.


Sent from another universe!

[Seveno]

And Duff and Duffer expect one of the bidders to hand over £ 1 million in way of a non-returnable deposit to become preferred bidder. :confused:

Well it pays Duff & Duffers fees for another month, doesn't it ?

[jgl07]

And Duff and Duffer expect one of the bidders to hand over £ 1 million in way of a non-returnable deposit to become preferred bidder. :confused:

It's a good way of sorting out the time-wasters.

[Seveno]

It's a good way of sorting out the time-wasters.

You're not trying to suggest that Brian Kennedy only wants free publicity are you ? :cb

[Phil MaGlass]

Call me childish if you like but I added a review (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&sugexp=frgbld&cp=6&gs_id=5&xhr=t&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&ion=1&biw=1440&bih=775&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=ibrox&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=ibrox&cid=0,0,18393690896640910992&ei=CQSCT_z8G_OU0QWEjpGZBw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&sqi=2&ved=0CBQQ_BI)


:greengrin

Jees ah hud tae look twice, ah thought their address was Administration Drive :greengrin

[WindyMiller]

Call me childish if you like but I added a review (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&sugexp=frgbld&cp=6&gs_id=5&xhr=t&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&ion=1&biw=1440&bih=775&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=ibrox&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=ibrox&cid=0,0,18393690896640910992&ei=CQSCT_z8G_OU0QWEjpGZBw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&sqi=2&ved=0CBQQ_BI)


:greengrin



:faf:

[johnrebus]

:agree: I have to agree with you there Onion. Surely there is a mechanism whereby the creditor(s) can say enough is enough. How on earth can this shower justify making losses of twice the income of the club since they took over, then add on their own expenses, which just happen to all but equal the income, and leave you and me as tax payers to pick up a substantial number of the pieces. It's just plain wrong IMO


The Dunfermline Building Society has been in administration for three years.


You would think there must be some kind of ruling body that admins would be responsible too?



:cb

[greenginger]

The Dunfermline Building Society has been in administration for three years.


You would think there must be some kind of ruling body that admins would be responsible too?



:cb


Take it off the salary of the Judge who appointed these cretins as administrators. :greengrin Nothing like a bit of fiscal responsibility to concentrate the mind :agree:

[jgl07]

A further legal complication has emerged as Andrew Ellis is sueing Craig Whyte for 24.9% of ownership of Rangers.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/apr/10/rangers-andrew-ellis-legal-action

If the Blue Knights still think Whyte will hand over the shares for nothing they had better think again.

Liquidation time?

[StevieC]

If the Blue Knights still think Whyte will hand over the shares for nothing they had better think again. Liquidation time?

Agreed. CW is now enemy number one so there's no way he will be doing anything for the "good" of Rangers.

He could be liable for the Ticketus loan, if taken to court, so will want to make sure that he has at least that as back up before he (voluntarily) parts with his shares.

Even if liquidated though, there is still likely to be lengthy court battles as CW fights for £30m worth of prefered creditor status (or security) on the assets. Again, due to the threat of Ticketus taking him up on his "personal guarantees" statements.

[PatHead]

Craigie Bhoy not going away quietly, gaun yersel and bleed them dry.................

Rangers owner Craig Whyte says that he has spoken with two of the three parties bidding to buy the club but has had no formal offer to buy his shares.
The administrator at Ibrox is currently weighing up the offers and is due to choose a preferred bidder soon.
"I've said I won't stand in the way of a takeover and that remains my position," Whyte told BBC Scotland.
"I am assuming that a preferred bidder can be announced subject to a deal being done with me."

[WindyMiller]

I heard on the BBC that Whyte's refusing to return for the SFA charges that he brought the game into disrepute.


"Meanwhile, Whyte also told BBC Scotland that he has no intention of coming to Glasgow to answer Scottish Football Association charges of bringing the game into disrepute.An independent inquiry led by Lord William Nimmo Smith had found thatWhyte was "not a fit and proper person" (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17302801) to own a football club.
Having been delayed after a request for Whyte's lawyers, the case will be heard at Hampden on 17 April.
"Why would I come back to answer the SFA charges?" asked Whyte.
"The process is farcical. They have delivered their verdict before the trial, so what is the point?""

:aok:

[Seveno]

I'm beginning to think that Craigie has replaced Vlad as my all-time hero. Well, for the time being anyway.

[WindyMiller]

I'm beginning to think that Craigie has replaced Vlad as my all-time hero. Well, for the time being anyway.

There's a bit of time yet before Vlad becomes the Hibernian Legend we all want him to be.

:cb

[Eyrie]

Liquidation has been the likely outcome for the Huns for quite some time, yet these Admins just carry on burning cash, taking their cut and paying out for expensive court cases - all paid for by the creditors such as HMRC (YOU/ME). At what point do the creditors stand up call a halt to this joke of an Adminstration ? All that D&F are doing is delaying the inevitable and playing monopoly with our money !

The administrators have a duty to get the best return for the creditors, and that means selling the Huns as a going concern. In a liquidation the assets would be worth substantially less (eg who wants a football ground? are player registrations still valid?) and so short term losses may be justifiable.

Now all they need to do is find someone willing to pay £164m - £134m for the creditors and £30m for a 85% shareholding (which may only be 60%).

[PatHead]

The administrators have a duty to get the best return for the creditors, and that means selling the Huns as a going concern. In a liquidation the assets would be worth substantially less (eg who wants a football ground? are player registrations still valid?) and so short term losses may be justifiable.

Now all they need to do is find someone willing to pay £164m - £134m for the creditors and £30m for a 85% shareholding (which may only be 60%).

I would think a minimum of 30m as I doubt Mr Whyte will only want to break even

[Eyrie]

Had a disappointing thought just now - if the new owners pay off all the creditors then there won't be any liabilities for Whyte to guarantee. Just hope you're right that he will want a substantial profit.

[jgl07]

Had a disappointing thought just now - if the new owners pay off all the creditors then there won't be any liabilities for Whyte to guarantee. Just hope you're right that he will want a substantial profit.

Like who will put in £160 million plus to pay off the creditors and then have to negotiate with Whyte and possibly Ellis to buy the shell of Rangers?

It is not on and everyone involved must realize that.

The 'bidders' are jockying for positions to determine who will be in the best place to own the Newco Rangers.

[RyeSloan]

The administrators have a duty to get the best return for the creditors, and that means selling the Huns as a going concern. In a liquidation the assets would be worth substantially less (eg who wants a football ground? are player registrations still valid?) and so short term losses may be justifiable.

Now all they need to do is find someone willing to pay £164m - £134m for the creditors and £30m for a 85% shareholding (which may only be 60%).

I would have thought their first priority would be to stop Rangers creating ever more creditors or owing more to the existing ones. Duff and Duffer seem to have completely failed to even take that step....surely this must put their ability to do the harder stuff in serious doubt.

The Huns are NOT a going concern and there seems no chance that they can be made one, even with severe 'austerity' measures. They have massive debt even leaving HMRC out of it and have already mortgaged a substantial chunk of future revenue...seems patently obvious there is and never will be a going concern to sell.

[Hibbyradge]

I would have thought their first priority would be to stop Rangers creating ever more creditors or owing more to the existing ones. Duff and Duffer seem to have completely failed to even take that step....surely this must put their ability to do the harder stuff in serious doubt.



Apart from the players accepting 75% wage cuts etc.

[RyeSloan]

Apart from the players accepting 75% wage cuts etc.

Sorry Mr Duff (or are you Mr Duffer) you are correct £2m trading loss in your time in charge of the club plus your very reasonable fees are indeed an excellent reflection of the fantastic job you have made in turning around the great ship RFC.

[SurferRosa]

To me, the playing staff should have been vastly reduced to cut costs, they are still shelling out thousands a week in wages. Any savings made by the wage cuts are swallowed up by the admins fee...:dunno:

[Hibbyradge]

Sorry Mr Duff (or are you Mr Duffer) you are correct £2m trading loss in your time in charge of the club plus your very reasonable fees are indeed an excellent reflection of the fantastic job you have made in turning around the great ship RFC.

WTF? :confused:

[calmac12000]

its obvious to anyone who kicks with the right foot, that Rangers will shortly exit liquidation owing to a surfeit of wishful thinking and a judicious application of self interested partisanship. The guardians of Scottish Football will soon devise a totally self serving method by which Rangers seemiessly readmitted to the SPL to continue spreading there particular brand of happiness and light as they have in the past. No notice whatsoever will be paid to their history of blatant sectarianism and their supporters traditional singing. All in all, the rest of Scottish football will come to the conclusion that Scotland needs Rangers just as much say that Germany needed National socialism.

[Keith_M]

.... All in all, the rest of Scottish football will come to the conclusion that Scotland needs Rangers just as much say that Germany needed National socialism.


Oh dear, you're VERY close to fulfilling Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) :wink:



I suppose we need Rangers about as much as we need Celtc, Mr Calmac.

[Jim44]

Oh dear, you're VERY close to fulfilling Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) :wink:





Don't mention the war! :greengrin

[Prof. Shaggy]

Oh dear, you're VERY close to fulfilling Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) :wink:





Godwin's Law?

About the most Gobbelsian thing I've heard in ages....

I suppose I should have a smiley in there.

[RyeSloan]

WTF? :confused:

:greengrin

You seemed to suggest that the Admins had indeed taken the steps required to stop Rangers losses....I was merely point out that their efforts to date have been too little too late and that casts doubt on their ability to take the required steps to save the RFC that we all know and love (and of course depend on for the successful future of Scottish football)

Don't see what is so confusing about that.

[Dashing Bob S]

:greengrin

You seemed to suggest that the Admins had indeed taken the steps required to stop Rangers losses....I was merely point out that their efforts to date have been too little too late and that casts doubt on their ability to take the required steps to save the RFC that we all know and love (and of course depend on for the successful future of Scottish football)

Don't see what is so confusing about that.

I'm with you. They are either corrupt jackals and trying to harvest as much from this corpse as they can before it putrefies, and/or incompetent clowns, as they have achieved next to nothing since they took over the reigns of the club, other than rack up more debt while waiting for fantasy bidders to appear.

[hibs0666]

Alex Thomson to get comment from UEFA imminently on political interference in the huns administration process.

[PaulSmith]

Chris McLaughlin (@BBCchrismclaug)
4/11/12 2:51 PM
#SPL to introduce tougher sanctions aimed at preventing clubs going newco. Also to introduce 15pt deduction for administration

[Saorsa]

Chris McLaughlin (@BBCchrismclaug)
4/11/12 2:51 PM
#SPL to introduce tougher sanctions aimed at preventing clubs going newco. Also to introduce 15pt deduction for administrationBrilliant, wait 'til the stickies get back in and get away with it then change the rules so anybody else is hammered for it.

[SurferRosa]

Chris McLaughlin (@BBCchrismclaug)
4/11/12 2:51 PM
#SPL to introduce tougher sanctions aimed at preventing clubs going newco. Also to introduce 15pt deduction for administration

No doubt AFTER The Huns are readmitted to the SPL as a newco.....

[blackpoolhibs]

Brilliant, wait 'til the stickies get back in and get away with it then change the rules so anybody else is hammered for it.

:agree: lets hope its the ****s who fall foul of this 15 points deduction very soon. Although i agree with you on this, we will soon see very strict rules on all sorts of things, but only after the huns case is sorted. :rolleyes:

[declan macmanus]

Also allowing "insolvency transfer event" with a two season 10 point penalty. If this is voted in I'm finished with Scottish football. I will be asking Hibs for a refund on my new season ticket.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IWasThere2016]

Also allowing "insolvency transfer event" with a two season 10 point penalty. If this is voted in I'm finished with Scottish football. I will be asking Hibs for a refund on my new season ticket.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17681268

:grr:

[Green Man]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17681268

:grr:

Typical OF media bias again, trying to put it in the rugby section so we won't notice :bitchy:

[jgl07]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17681268

:grr:

Is there any significance in the BBC filing that report under Rugby Union?

[PaulSmith]

http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s2&newsid=11256

[JeMeSouviens]

Detail on the SPL site:

http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s2&newsid=11256



Financial Fair Play

On 30 April 2012 the SPL Clubs will consider a range of proposals to amend the Articles and Rules of the SPL. A brief description of the effect of adopting the Resolutions is provided below.

Resolution 1 proposes an increase in the sporting sanction (points deduction) on any Club which suffers or is subject to an Insolvency Event from 10 points to the greater of 15 points and 1/3 of the Club’s SPL points in the preceding season.

Resolution 2A proposes further sporting sanctions in the event that any Club undergoes an Insolvency Transfer Event (i.e. transfers its share in the SPL to a new company where this occurs because of the insolvency of the transferor) of 10 points in each of two consecutive seasons from the Insolvency Transfer Event.

Resolution 2B proposes revisions to the fee payment arrangements i.e. SPL fees to any Club which has undergone an Insolvency Transfer Event will be reduced by 75% in each of three consecutive seasons from the Insolvency Transfer Event.

Resolution 3 proposes extending sporting sanctions where an Insolvency Event is suffered by a Group Undertaking of a Member Club of the SPL (Group Undertaking is defined in Section 1161(5) of the Companies Act 2006).

Resolution 4 proposes updates and extensions to the definition of Insolvency Event in the SPL Rules.

Resolution 5 proposes updates and extensions to the definition of Insolvency Event in the SPL Articles and clarifies the process in the event that a Member which is the subject of an Insolvency Event is required to transfer its share in the Company.

Resolution 6 proposes a specific requirement in the SPL Rules that Clubs must pay their Players in terms of their Contracts of Service on due dates and places a duty on any Club to report any failure to pay its Players in a timely manner to the SPL. Failure to pay Players and / or to notify such failure to the SPL would be a breach of SPL Rules.

Resolution 7 proposes a requirement in the SPL Rules that Clubs report to the SPL any failure to make payments to HMRC in respect of PAYE and NIC (a Default Event). Any Club suffering such a Default Event will be subject to a Player Registration Embargo. Any failure to report a Default Event shall be a breach of the SPL Rules.

Resolutions 2B and 5 require the support of a minimum of 11 Clubs to be adopted; all other Resolutions require the support of a minimum of 8 Clubs to be adopted.

If adopted the amendments to the Articles and Rules will have effect from and including 14 May 2012 (the day after the last day of Season 2011/2012).

No further comment will be made in respect of these proposals until after the General Meeting on 30 April at which they will be considered by the Clubs.


I think Resolution 5 will be the key. It almost certainly is bending the existing article regarding the transfer of SPL share requiring an 11-1 vote. I bet there is absolutely zero press coverage or explanation of what Resolution 5 involves. This is the behind closed doors stitch up we've all been expecting.

Resolution 5 itself requires an 11-1 vote.

Hibs and the rest: 19 days to avoid the mother of all corrupt back door deals.:rolleyes:

[grunt]

Keith Downie ‏ @STVkeith Rangers administrators put off naming a preferred bidder due to SPL's proposed rule changes which include increased points deductions

You couldn't make it up.

[H18sry]

http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/football-news/article/2731298

Duff & Duffer Statement
Duff & Duffer, administrators of Rangers Football Club, issued the following statement today.

Paul Clark, joint administrator, said: "As administrators we had hoped to announce today the acceptance in principle of an offer for the purchase of Rangers Football Club, which would be followed by a period of exclusivity while due diligence is undertaken.

"Regrettably, this is not now possible as we were informed over the Easter holiday period that the SPL is proposing to consider at a general meeting on April 30, significant rule changes in relation to clubs which find themselves in an insolvency situation.


"The effect of such revised measures being considered at this juncture is that we, as administrators are duty bound to inform those parties who have submitted bids of the proposed resolutions the SPL intends to consider. Failure to do so would constitute material non-disclosure on our part, which is a serious matter.

"Inevitably, bidders are now considering this information and will have to take a view as to whether it will affect their individual bids as they now stand. The result is a delay in the sale process. We hope to receive feedback from bidders as soon as possible in order for us to take the sale process forward as quickly as we can.

"We fully respect the right of the SPL to review its own rules and regulations and will not comment on the detail of what is being proposed for the meeting on April 30 at this stage. However, the fact that such measures are being considered at such a sensitive point in the sale process at Rangers is disruptive and regrettable. We hope to issue a further update by the end of this week."

[PaulSmith]

There we have it then guys, a newco Rangers will get back into the SPL otherwise why would these items be discussed now and voted on before season end.

Rangers 2012 will start next season and the one after in the SPL on -10 points and have a 75% reduction in SPL income.
UEFA will ban them from Europe for 3 years.

[hibs0666]

There we have it then guys, a newco Rangers will get back into the SPL otherwise why would these items be discussed now and voted on before season end.

Rangers 2012 will start next season and the one after in the SPL on -10 points and have a 75% reduction in SPL income.
UEFA will ban them from Europe for 3 years.

And if they stay in administration they get a 20 point ban. Go figure. :confused:

[PatHead]

Wonder who proposed and seconded these rules? Probably the Management Board of 2 non club directors, Celtic Director and ass licker from St Johnstone?

Hope the clubs stand there ground or propose more stringent penalties.

I really pray Hibs win the cup this year and I would never, ever feel the need to follow the team again.

[lucky]

Duff and Duffer always find a way off not taking this issue forward. Whilst racking up massive fees. They appear to be more dodgey than CW. The huns are being taken for a ride

[Saorsa]

Detail on the SPL site:

http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s2&newsid=11256



I think Resolution 5 will be the key. It almost certainly is bending the existing article regarding the transfer of SPL share requiring an 11-1 vote. I bet there is absolutely zero press coverage or explanation of what Resolution 5 involves. This is the behind closed doors stitch up we've all been expecting.

Resolution 5 itself requires an 11-1 vote.

Hibs and the rest: 19 days to avoid the mother of all corrupt back door deals.:rolleyes:


There we have it then guys, a newco Rangers will get back into the SPL otherwise why would these items be discussed now and voted on before season end.

Rangers 2012 will start next season and the one after in the SPL on -10 points and have a 75% reduction in SPL income.
UEFA will ban them from Europe for 3 years.If this happens and they start next season in the SPL that'll be me finished with fitba. I'll no be puting another penny in tae corruption riddled Scottish fitba organisations.

[PatHead]

Duff and Duffer always find a way off not taking this issue forward. Whilst racking up massive fees. They appear to be more dodgey than CW. The huns are being taken for a ride

Not as much as we are if these proposals go through.

[IWasThere2016]

There we have it then guys, a newco Rangers will get back into the SPL otherwise why would these items be discussed now and voted on before season end.

Rangers 2012 will start next season and the one after in the SPL on -10 points and have a 75% reduction in SPL income.
UEFA will ban them from Europe for 3 years.

Looks that way to me too Paul - farcical!!

The SPL Chairmen might just kill our game off if they do not act to prevent this .. It'll be back to the local Juniors for fitbaw for me.

[jgl07]

Looks that way to me too Paul - farcical!!

The SPL Chairmen might just kill our game off if they do not act to prevent this .. It'll be back to the local Juniors for fitbaw for me.

I will be out as well.

Hibs will receive my 2012-13 season ticket straight back.

I will never attend a SPL game again. I will boycott all sponsors of the SPL.

I just hope that the Chairmen know what they are going to unleash if they pass this one.

[matty_f]

There we have it then guys, a newco Rangers will get back into the SPL otherwise why would these items be discussed now and voted on before season end.

Rangers 2012 will start next season and the one after in the SPL on -10 points and have a 75% reduction in SPL income.
UEFA will ban them from Europe for 3 years.
I read it that the points deduction would be the from 10 points to the greater of 15 points or 1/3 of their points total, which would put them at a 21 point reduction for next season assuming they picked up no further points this season.

Farically, they'd still be ahead of us by over 20 points. :rolleyes:

The SPL can GTF if this goes through. Rubbish.

[stokesmessiah]

I actually feel sick that they are going to get away with this.