Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[green glory]

Check the opening statement of this story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-17735989

Now, there's hope for Craikie White - he's got a defamation case opportunity against J Lamont!!:aok:

I think we can fairly say the SNP are doing a better job than labour in pretty much every sphere of government, local or national. As for Whitey, I think he's done a magnificent job so far!

[Hibs07p]

Are the administrators not just trying to keep Rangers alive to fulfill their fixtures and avoid other sanctions, before putting them into liquidation?

[CropleyWasGod]

Are the administrators not just trying to keep Rangers alive to fulfill their fixtures and avoid other sanctions, before putting them into liquidation?

Don't see what the point would be in doing that. They are keeping them alive, in order to maximise the chance of selling them on.

[green glory]

Are the administrators not just trying to keep Rangers alive to fulfill their fixtures and avoid other sanctions, before putting them into liquidation?

And to line their own pockets at the expense of the creditors.

[Hibs07p]

Don't see what the point would be in doing that. They are keeping them alive, in order to maximise the chance of selling them on.

I don't see any benefits in only keeping them alive only to fulfill fixtures, but it seems D&P are prolonging the administration unnecessarily. The bids are in, they should be naming the preferred bidder IMO.

[RyeSloan]

Don't see what the point would be in doing that. They are keeping them alive, in order to maximise the chance of selling them on.

Yet I am struggling to see what they have achieved on that front....with the club seemingly making further losses and as yet no confirmed bid.

I'm confused as to just how they are being kept alive, if as they seemed to state the club is still running at a loss who is covering that loss and looking at their list of creidtors I also struggle to understading just how the club is functioning in any sensible manner at all.

Had to laugh at McCoist getting a but uppity about the delay the other day saying they needed to organise pre season friendlies and a tour....urmmm you might need the club to still be in existance first Ally!!

[greenginger]

Don't see what the point would be in doing that. They are keeping them alive, in order to maximise the chance of selling them on.


Liquidation before the season end means all their fixtures are void and automatic relegation with no opportunity to plead for special treatment.

I think they still expect to be in the SPL next season.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't see any benefits in only keeping them alive only to fulfill fixtures, but it seems D&P are prolonging the administration unnecessarily. The bids are in, they should be naming the preferred bidder IMO.

Given that the BK have moved the goalposts themselves with their throwing the toys out, I'm not surprised that the admins have delayed again. That said, the admins now have a time pressure. The longer the process goes on, the more likely they are to run out of cash.

I think we may see a decision on the preferred bidder very soon, perhaps this week.

[CropleyWasGod]

Yet I am struggling to see what they have achieved on that front....with the club seemingly making further losses and as yet no confirmed bid.

I'm confused as to just how they are being kept alive, if as they seemed to state the club is still running at a loss who is covering that loss and looking at their list of creidtors I also struggle to understading just how the club is functioning in any sensible manner at all.

Had to laugh at McCoist getting a but uppity about the delay the other day saying they needed to organise pre season friendlies and a tour....urmmm you might need the club to still be in existance first Ally!!

The question of whether or not they are running at a "loss" is, IMO, almost irrelevant. At this stage, it's all about cash. They were able to negotiate the reduction in salaries, which gave them the cash-flow to trade until the end of the season, and to give them time to find a buyer. That cash is still there, and that is how they are still operating.

The problem now, though, is that the end of the season is approaching fast. Income will all but disappear... although they will probably have SPL prize-money to come.... and the question of the players' salaries will re-emerge. Some salaries will go back to what they were, some players may walk. The cash flow will become critical at that point. If there is no clear buying process in place, I can see the admins circling the wagons and winding things up.

[EuanH78]

Was just having a ponder there. Now I understand that the big tax case is is to establish whether the huns have been underpaying taxes by illegal means and the amount of back tax that 'should' be due in the event this is decided. Would the outcome of this case be proof of double contracts also?

If so, the very fact that expulsion from the league isnt the only thing being talked about is an absolute scandal. Pheonix companies etc.. is just a load of bull*****.

[Jack]

Liquidation before the season end means all their fixtures are void and automatic relegation with no opportunity to plead for special treatment.

I think they still expect to be in the SPL next season.

Agreed.

If they went into liquidation now, or for any reason were unable to fulfil any fixtures, before the end of the season it would be curtains, no way back, they'd be toast, history – even for the 3rd division. Deed!

Keeping them on a life support machine means they may come out of the coma but I think the common thought is they are already brain dead.

[CropleyWasGod]

Was just having a ponder there. Now I understand that the big tax case is is to establish whether the huns have been underpaying taxes by illegal means and the amount of back tax that 'should' be due in the event this is decided. Would the outcome of this case be proof of double contracts also?

If so, the very fact that expulsion from the league isnt the only thing being talked about is an absolute scandal. Pheonix companies etc.. is just a load of bull*****.

Whilst the BTC verdict may be evidence of double-contracts, it may not be proof. I am not sure to what extent the Tribunal will publish their deliberations; there is, after all, a confidentiality issue.

If I were in RFC's seat (albeit, cleaned thoroughly first), I would argue that the Tribunal verdict (if it goes against them) only states the tax position, and does not of itself prove double-contracts.

The SFA are investigating the double-contracts as a separate, specific, matter. They may, of course, be influenced by the BTC; in that light, I don't think we will see the SFA's verdict until after the BTC.

[greenginger]

Whilst the BTC verdict may be evidence of double-contracts, it may not be proof. I am not sure to what extent the Tribunal will publish their deliberations; there is, after all, a confidentiality issue.

If I were in RFC's seat (albeit, cleaned thoroughly first), I would argue that the Tribunal verdict (if it goes against them) only states the tax position, and does not of itself prove double-contracts.

The SFA are investigating the double-contracts as a separate, specific, matter. They may, of course, be influenced by the BTC; in that light, I don't think we will see the SFA's verdict until after the BTC.


I think the SFA delegated the double contracts issue to the SPL so as the SFA can act as an appeal tribunal.

Of course Doncaster could have the double contracts in triplicate on his desk and still conclude nothing is proven.

[jgl07]

Liquidation before the season end means all their fixtures are void and automatic relegation with no opportunity to plead for special treatment.


I don't think all fixtures would be voided as the phase one fixtures are now complete. It would result in the top six becoming a top five and a 37-match series for them. The bottom six would not be affected.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think the SFA delegated the double contracts issue to the SPL so as the SFA can act as an appeal tribunal.

Of course Doncaster could have the double contracts in triplicate on his desk and still conclude nothing is proven.

Ah, you're right.

And you're also a cynical get :greengrin

Actually, for me Doncaster is a ray of hope. I think, being an "outsider", he will want to show that justice is done and seen to be done.

[PatHead]

Ah, you're right.

And you're also a cynical get :greengrin

Actually, for me Doncaster is a ray of hope. I think, being an "outsider", he will want to show that justice is done and seen to be done.

Wish I had your faith. He wants to maximise income for the SPL and he sees Rangers being there as crucial.

[Caversham Green]

Was just having a ponder there. Now I understand that the big tax case is is to establish whether the huns have been underpaying taxes by illegal means and the amount of back tax that 'should' be due in the event this is decided. Would the outcome of this case be proof of double contracts also?

If so, the very fact that expulsion from the league isnt the only thing being talked about is an absolute scandal. Pheonix companies etc.. is just a load of bull*****.

It's two different issues though. The talk about phoenix companies follow follows on from RFC being in liquidation - nothing to do with the big tax case, it's about whether any club should be able to liquidate and re-emerge in the SPL as a new company. The question of double contracts still has to be considered as a separate issue. What would be scandalous (and what I think could happen) is if a new 'Rangers' club took the old Rangers place in the SPL and didn't have to answer the double-contract charges because they died with the old club.

Maybe that's what you were getting at though.


Whilst the BTC verdict may be evidence of double-contracts, it may not be proof. I am not sure to what extent the Tribunal will publish their deliberations; there is, after all, a confidentiality issue.

If I were in RFC's seat (albeit, cleaned thoroughly first), I would argue that the Tribunal verdict (if it goes against them) only states the tax position, and does not of itself prove double-contracts.

The SFA are investigating the double-contracts as a separate, specific, matter. They may, of course, be influenced by the BTC; in that light, I don't think we will see the SFA's verdict until after the BTC.

I beg to differ here. The findings of the tribunal would be a legal decision that 'wages' were paid outwith the PAYE system and so were a contractual obligation. The idea of written double contracts becomes a red herring - the requirement as I understand it is for disclosure of all contractual obligations, not just 'side letters' so the decision will already have been made for the SPL. For them to ignore such a decision by a legally convened tribunal would be bizarre IMO.

[Caversham Green]

Ah, you're right.

And you're also a cynical get :greengrin

Actually, for me Doncaster is a ray of hope. I think, being an "outsider", he will want to show that justice is done and seen to be done.

I have a feeling that the Broadcasting contracts were negotiated by Doncaster and he sees them as his baby. For that reason he is desperate to keep Rangers in the top flight otherwise his incompetence in allowing the inclusion of the four OF games clause with no apparent plan B will be exposed to an even greater extent.

I wonder if that was also why he was so keen on the 10-team SPL - there were already noises about Rangers financial problems and a distinct possibility that they would drop to the bottom six, thereby losing one of the derbies.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's two different issues though. The talk about phoenix companies follow follows on from RFC being in liquidation - nothing to do with the big tax case, it's about whether any club should be able to liquidate and re-emerge in the SPL as a new company. The question of double contracts still has to be considered as a separate issue. What would be scandalous (and what I think could happen) is if a new 'Rangers' club took the old Rangers place in the SPL and didn't have to answer the double-contract charges because they died with the old club.

Maybe that's what you were getting at though.



I beg to differ here. The findings of the tribunal would be a legal decision that 'wages' were paid outwith the PAYE system and so were a contractual obligation. The idea of written double contracts becomes a red herring - the requirement as I understand it is for disclosure of all contractual obligations, not just 'side letters' so the decision will already have been made for the SPL. For them to ignore such a decision by a legally convened tribunal would be bizarre IMO.

Okay, so if I understand you, that would suggest that the SPL, although conducting their own investigation, will wait for the BTC verdict before they issue theirs?

[Caversham Green]

Okay, so if I understand you, that would suggest that the SPL, although conducting their own investigation, will wait for the BTC verdict before they issue theirs?

I would have thought so. The BTC findings ought to be a substantial part of their investigation even if it isn't as conclusive as I think it should be.

[CropleyWasGod]

I would have thought so. The BTC findings ought to be a substantial part of their investigation even if it isn't as conclusive as I think it should be.

Okay.

What I am not clear about, and I mentioned it earlier, is the extent to which the Tribunal publishes the evidence. I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but if all they do is publish the verdict.......

I will do some digging, unless you know the answer off the top of your heid?

Edit... their website has all the cases on which they have ruled. http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/Aspx/default.aspx On looking at some of the cases there, I think the decision will be fairly explicit.

[Caversham Green]

Okay.

What I am not clear about, and I mentioned it earlier, is the extent to which the Tribunal publishes the evidence. I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, but if all they do is publish the verdict.......

I will do some digging, unless you know the answer off the top of your heid?

No, I don't know that. I would think they would have to give fairly detailed reasons for their decision though, for the puroses of both explaining it to both sides and for future reference (although I believe the tribunal's decision would not set a specific legal precedence).

[CropleyWasGod]

No, I don't know that. I would think they would have to give fairly detailed reasons for their decision though, for the puroses of both explaining it to both sides and for future reference (although I believe the tribunal's decision would not set a specific legal precedence).

That's my understanding, as well.

It follows from that, that HMRC might not be able to rely on this case in dealing with other clubs. It would, however, give them a lot of ammunition.

In case you missed my previous edit:-

Edit... their website has all the cases on which they have ruled. http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.go...x/default.aspx On looking at some of the cases there, I think the decision will be fairly explicit.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ah, you're right.

And you're also a cynical get :greengrin

Actually, for me Doncaster is a ray of hope. I think, being an "outsider", he will want to show that justice is done and seen to be done.

Think Regan at the SFA is some hope (especially as he answers to Platini at UEFA). Doncaster on the other hand is already deliberately attempting to subvert the rules to get NewHuns in at any price (imo).

[Seveno]

Think Regan at the SFA is some hope (especially as he answers to Platini at UEFA). Doncaster on the other hand is already deliberately attempting to subvert the rules to get NewHuns in at any price (imo).

I think that you are right here. Whether he likes it or not, he will have to satisfy UEFA that SFA affairs are being conducted properly and with due reference to Financial Fair Play. The sale of Jelavic, whilst still owing money to Rapid Vienna wil be a big issue at UEFA. They have come down hard on other clubs that have broken the rules.

Ultimately, I guess that UEFA could ban all Scottish clubs from participation in Europe. Imagine the
reaction at Darkheid !

[EuanH78]

It's two different issues though. The talk about phoenix companies follow follows on from RFC being in liquidation - nothing to do with the big tax case, it's about whether any club should be able to liquidate and re-emerge in the SPL as a new company. The question of double contracts still has to be considered as a separate issue. What would be scandalous (and what I think could happen) is if a new 'Rangers' club took the old Rangers place in the SPL and didn't have to answer the double-contract charges because they died with the old club.

Maybe that's what you were getting at though.



I beg to differ here. The findings of the tribunal would be a legal decision that 'wages' were paid outwith the PAYE system and so were a contractual obligation. The idea of written double contracts becomes a red herring - the requirement as I understand it is for disclosure of all contractual obligations, not just 'side letters' so the decision will already have been made for the SPL. For them to ignore such a decision by a legally convened tribunal would be bizarre IMO.

This is exactly what I was getting at, this seems to be how Rangers new identity is being positioned- if this turns out to be the case, things become so farcical that it is difficult to see a recovery of Scottish football integrity within a generation.

The very fact that the governing bodies are doing their damndest to ease RFC's sufferings is already doing untold damage. Lack of leadership and the ability to make the 'hard, but righteous' decisions is damaging Scottish football daily IMO

[JeMeSouviens]

As mentioned above, Dunfermline chairman John Yorkston stated on RS last night that if they ever get to vote on the issue, the Pars will vote against the Hun newco.

Interview starts about 10 mins in to the latest podcast:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot

Of course, you can hardly move for huge banner headlines splashing this extremely important but bad news for der Hun. :rolleyes:

Telling (imo) where he says they have been informed at the last meeting that it's an SPL board decision. The Doncaster railroad in full effect. :rolleyes:

C'mon Rod, do the decent thing and publically back Yorkston's view. :agree:

[Gingertosser]

JeMeSouviens Telling (imo) where he says they have been informed at the last meeting that it's an SPL board decision. The Doncaster railroad in full effect

My undersatnding from the rules posted on here (quite a few pages back) was that the members voted on this first, and needed all 11 to back a Newco, and the boards duty was to implement this decision.

Have I misread this previously, or are the board interpreting the rules to suit themselves ?

[JeMeSouviens]

Have I misread this previously, or are the board interpreting the rules to suit themselves ?

No and Yes.

Apparently the scam Doncaster & co intend to pull is:

- NewHuns started up, so there are briefly 2 sets of Huns.
- OldHuns transfer SPL share to NewHuns.
- OldHuns are liquidated.

They reckon that the rules regarding the transfer of the share of a liquidated club don't apply, since OldHuns' share will be transferred just before they are actually liquidated. Also the rule about no relegation when a member club is liquidated is also avoided (because the OldHuns will no longer be a member club at the moment of liquidation).

Why Dunfermline and Hibs, one of which will lose out big time, aren't all over this I have no idea. :confused:

[CropleyWasGod]

No and Yes.

Apparently the scam Doncaster & co intend to pull is:

- NewHuns started up, so there are briefly 2 sets of Huns.
- OldHuns transfer SPL share to NewHuns.
- OldHuns are liquidated.

They reckon that the rules regarding the transfer of the share of a liquidated club don't apply, since OldHuns' share will be transferred just before they are actually liquidated. Also the rule about no relegation when a member club is liquidated is also avoided (because the OldHuns will no longer be a member club at the moment of liquidation).

Why Dunfermline and Hibs, one of which will lose out big time, aren't all over this I have no idea. :confused:

What are the rules on one club transferring its share to another, where neither is in administration or liquidation?

[jgl07]

I have a feeling that the Broadcasting contracts were negotiated by Doncaster and he sees them as his baby. For that reason he is desperate to keep Rangers in the top flight otherwise his incompetence in allowing the inclusion of the four OF games clause with no apparent plan B will be exposed to an even greater extent.

I wonder if that was also why he was so keen on the 10-team SPL - there were already noises about Rangers financial problems and a distinct possibility that they would drop to the bottom six, thereby losing one of the derbies.

I think that the new TV deal was introduced to kick any attempts to expand the SPL to 14 or 16 teams.

The other agenda was always to go back to 10 teams even though virtually no supporters want this to happen.

Doncaster lied continually to the press with a series of press statements to the effect that reconstruction had been agreed when there were clearly teams holding out against this.

I just get the impression that they are determined to foist a Newco Rangers on the SPL and then cut back to ten teams within the next couple of years, possibly via a complete league reconstruction and merger between the SPL and the SFL.

Scottish Football is entering its death throes.

It will be nice to go out on a Scottish Cup win though.

[JeMeSouviens]

What are the rules on one club transferring its share to another, where neither is in administration or liquidation?


TRANSFER OF SHARES
11. Except where such transfer is occasioned by the promotion of an association football club from and relegation of a Club to the SFL the consent of the Board shall be required before the transfer of any Share shall be registered.
12 The instrument of transfer of a Share may be in any usual form or in any other form which the Board may approve and shall be executed by or on behalf of the transferor and, unless the Share is fully paid, by or on behalf of the transferee.


It should also be noted that SPL articles state NewHuns would have to get the SFA onside, which might be harder. I'm not sure what the SFA criteria for full membership are like?


SFA ARTICLES
96. Nothing in these Articles shall relieve any Member of the Company from its obligations as a full member club of the SFA to comply with the applicable articles of association of the SFA for so long as it remains a member of the SFA. Each Member shall (in so far as it is lawfully able and permitted by the exercise of its voting powers to do so) procure that the Company observes and complies with all relevant articles of association of the SFA applicable to it.

[johnrebus]

No and Yes.

Apparently the scam Doncaster & co intend to pull is:

- NewHuns started up, so there are briefly 2 sets of Huns.
- OldHuns transfer SPL share to NewHuns.
- OldHuns are liquidated.

They reckon that the rules regarding the transfer of the share of a liquidated club don't apply, since OldHuns' share will be transferred just before they are actually liquidated. Also the rule about no relegation when a member club is liquidated is also avoided (because the OldHuns will no longer be a member club at the moment of liquidation).Why Dunfermline and Hibs, one of which will lose out big time, aren't all over this I have no idea. :confused:


Don't know if there is a phrase, 'legal corruption', but if there's not then there should be.


:confused:

[Gingertosser]

Can a company in administration start up a new company ?

Can a company in administration transfer anything without the creditors consent ?

[CropleyWasGod]

It should also be noted that SPL articles state NewHuns would have to get the SFA onside, which might be harder. I'm not sure what the SFA criteria for full membership are like?

So, remind me, the "Board"... that isn't the 11-1 scenario is it?

[CropleyWasGod]

Can a company in administration start up a new company ?

Can a company in administration transfer anything without the creditors consent ?

It would be the shareholders of the new company (eg the BK's , or Billy the Ng) who would start up the NewCo. They would buy the assets of the old company as part of the purchase agreement.

[Gingertosser]

So, remind me, the "Board"... that isn't the 11-1 scenario is it?

no it's the 6 apologists, most of whom have already backed a Newco being readmitted

[JeMeSouviens]

So, remind me, the "Board"... that isn't the 11-1 scenario is it?

No it's the 6 stooges: Ralph "(not exactly a) Dream" Topping, Doncaster, plus club reps (currently Celtic, Well, St J, D Utd). In the event of a 3-3, Ralph "the worst living Hibby apart from Brian Kennedy" Topping has the casting vote.

[CropleyWasGod]

It should also be noted that SPL articles state NewHuns would have to get the SFA onside, which might be harder. I'm not sure what the SFA criteria for full membership are like?

According to the SFA website, the Licencing requirements for SPL clubs are the same as we have spoken about before.... ie the UEFA standard.

I am not sure how a completely new club would be able to satisfy those requirements, particularly the financial ones.

[Gingertosser]

It would be the shareholders of the new company (eg the BK's , or Billy the Ng) who would start up the NewCo. They would buy the assets of the old company as part of the purchase agreement.

so do newco1 (BK etc) just buy the assets they want and leave the rest behind ?

or do they have to buy everything and then start a newco2 again and then transfer the good stuff ?

[CropleyWasGod]

so do newco1 (BK etc) just buy the assets they want and leave the rest behind ?

or do they have to buy everything and then start a newco2 again and then transfer the good stuff ?

The former.

They would probably want the properties, the players, the SFA licence and the SPL share. (oh, and the "history" :greengrin)

[JeMeSouviens]

so do newco1 (BK etc) just buy the assets they want and leave the rest behind ?

or do they have to buy everything and then start a newco2 again and then transfer the good stuff ?

They can start a newco at any time. Indeed, they may have already for all we know.

If OldHuns are liquidated they (NewHuns) make an offer for the assets they want (stadium, training ground, players' registrations) to the liquidator. The liquidator then uses that money to pay a dividend to creditors. Everything else dies with OldHuns

[CropleyWasGod]

They can start a newco at any time. Indeed, they may have already for all we know.

If OldHuns are liquidated they (NewHuns) make an offer for the assets they want (stadium, training ground, players' registrations) to the liquidator. The liquidator then uses that money to pay a dividend to creditors. Everything else dies with OldHuns

That would only work if NewHuns buy the assets of OldHuns whilst it's in administration, I think. In a liquidation, I think the players' contracts revert to the SFA.

[jgl07]

That would only work if NewHuns buy the assets of OldHuns whilst it's in administration, I'm sure. In a liquidation, I think the players' contracts revert to the SFA.

That is the case.

Do the administrators have the power to sell off assets against the will of the existing shareholders including Craig Whyte and the creditors including HMRC and Ticketus (and HoMFC)?

That seems close to what happened with Leeds United.

[CropleyWasGod]

That is the case.

Do the administrators have the power to sell off assets against the will of the existing shareholders including Craig Whyte and the creditors including HMRC and Ticketus (and HoMFC)?

That seems close to what happened with Leeds United.

Not without a CVA.

[jgl07]

Not without a CVA.

So that means that any NewHun will have to deal with Craig Whyte unless they go for the nuclear option of liquidation.

I can't see it will make a lot of difference. I don't think that there is a lot of value in Rangers' playing staff in the current economic climate. Most Championship sides are feeling the pinch and will not be paying silly wages and transfer fees. I can't think of many Rangers players who will fit into the Premiership easily.

Whittaker maybe? Davis has been there before and failed to make an impact. Wallace possibly assuming Alex McLeish keeps his job?

[Kaiser1962]

So, remind me, the "Board"... that isn't the 11-1 scenario is it?


Dont know if these particular SFA gems have been mentioned yet relating to a Uefa Club Licence which would seem to exclude Newhun FC;
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/ClubLicensing/PartThree-UEFAClubLicensing/03 The Club as Licence Applicant and Licence (2).pdf

Have to a member of the SFA for three years before you can apply for one, a requirement to compete in the SPL.


AND Rule 3.3.1 "3.3.1 UEFA Licence Awards for Scottish Premier League Clubs (SPL)

A Licence cannot be transferred from one legal entity to another."

[Seveno]

That would only work if NewHuns buy the assets of OldHuns whilst it's in administration, I think. In a liquidation, I think the players' contracts revert to the SFA.

See page 154 post 4620.

[CropleyWasGod]

Dont know if these particular SFA gems have been mentioned yet relating to a Uefa Club Licence which would seem to exclude Newhun FC;
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/ClubLicensing/PartThree-UEFAClubLicensing/03 The Club as Licence Applicant and Licence (2).pdf

Have to a member of the SFA for three years before you can apply for one, a requirement to compete in the SPL.


AND Rule 3.3.1 "3.3.1 UEFA Licence Awards for Scottish Premier League Clubs (SPL)

A Licence cannot be transferred from one legal entity to another."


Quite damning, by my reading.

Next question.... is it correct that an SPL member needs an SFA Licence? Please say yes.

[Seveno]

Quite damning, by my reading.

Next question.... is it correct that an SPL member needs an SFA Licence? Please say yes.

As the governing body, it would seem self evident. Hence the reason to register accounts and contracts.

[CropleyWasGod]

As the governing body, it would seem self evident. Hence the reason to register accounts and contracts.

What I hoped. Sorry, just trying to get all the silly questions sorted before Chick asks them.

And I'm still in my post-holiday fug, so the brain isn't properly working yet. :greengrin

[PatHead]

Brian Kennedy made an improved offer for Rangers according to BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17683898

[magpie1892]

Brian Kennedy made an improved offer for Rangers according to BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17683898

Just after more free publicity and more shots in the paper/online of him looking like a fud in his Ray-Bans. He's clearly a time-waster.

[green glory]

Just after more free publicity and more shots in the paper/online of him looking like a fud in his Ray-Bans. He's clearly a time-waster.

A time-waster yes, but he's giving them hope when there is none. Sooooo cruel.

Hell awaits Huns!!!

[Kaiser1962]

What I hoped. Sorry, just trying to get all the silly questions sorted before Chick asks them.

And I'm still in my post-holiday fug, so the brain isn't properly working yet. :greengrin

This is worth a wee read too CWG. Vindicates what you have been saying all along about HMRC's aversion to CVA's.

http://web3dlaw.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/a-look-at-portsmouth-for-guidance-on-football-clubs-and-creditor-voluntary-agreements-25/

[grunt]

This is worth a wee read too CWG. Vindicates what you have been saying all along about HMRC's aversion to CVA's.

http://web3dlaw.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/a-look-at-portsmouth-for-guidance-on-football-clubs-and-creditor-voluntary-agreements-25/I sincerely hope that the guy writing that blog is not a lawyer. He has immense difficulty in stringing two sentences together and making sense. Sorry, but that blog is a mess. IMO.

[Kaiser1962]

I sincerely hope that the guy writing that blog is not a lawyer. He has immense difficulty in stringing two sentences together and making sense. Sorry, but that blog is a mess. IMO.

It was the events that took place that I was interested in, rather than the syntax to be honest. HMRC appeared to fight very hard against the CVA and had their claim diluted by the administrators (tax on image rights:- HMRC claimed £11m, Administrators recognise:- £1 (one pound))

By disregarding the £11m the administrators pushed through the CVA much to the chagrin of HMRC.

[magpie1892]

It was the events that took place that I was interested in, rather than the syntax to be honest. HMRC appeared to fight very hard against the CVA and had their claim diluted by the administrators (tax on image rights:- HMRC claimed £11m, Administrators recognise:- £1 (one pound))

By disregarding the £11m the administrators pushed through the CVA much to the chagrin of HMRC.

...which can't happen at Ipox, regardless of the outcome of the BTC, due to the sums involved, and the portion therein owed to HMRC already.

CVA only possible with HMRC approval, which is unlikely to be conferred to say the least. Liquidation is inevitable, and then the fun really starts.

I still find it presumptious to assume that Rangers will be one of the top two in the SPL this time next year.

[CropleyWasGod]

...which can't happen at Ipox, regardless of the outcome of the BTC, due to the sums involved, and the portion therein owed to HMRC already.

CVA only possible with HMRC approval, which is unlikely to be conferred to say the least. Liquidation is inevitable, and then the fun really starts.

I still find it presumptious to assume that Rangers will be one of the top two in the SPL this time next year.

I'm not so sure about that.

At the moment, the estimated debt is £134m, which contains an estimate of HMRC debt at £75m; £15m of that is uncontested, and presumably £60m is the BTC.

If the BTC goes Rangers way, total debt is reduced to £74m, of which £15m is due to HMRC. If the rest of the creditors vote for a CVA, and that's almost 80%, it will be passed.

[greenginger]

I'm not so sure about that.

At the moment, the estimated debt is £134m, which contains an estimate of HMRC debt at £75m; £15m of that is uncontested, and presumably £60m is the BTC.

If the BTC goes Rangers way, total debt is reduced to £74m, of which £15m is due to HMRC. If the rest of the creditors vote for a CVA, and that's almost 80%, it will be passed.


That £74m - £15m includes the sum due to Ticketus who will fight tooth and nail not to lumped in with the other creditors by either joining with the successful bidding party or by going to the English Courts and eventually the Supreme Court to have the Scottish Courts decision on their status overturned.

Every time Duff and Duffer try loosen the Knots der Hun are tied up in another noose is tightened. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

That £74m - £15m includes the sum due to Ticketus who will fight tooth and nail not to lumped in with the other creditors by either joining with the successful bidding party or by going to the English Courts and eventually the Supreme Court to have the Scottish Courts decision on their status overturned.

Every time Duff and Duffer try loosen the Knots der Hun are tied up in another noose is tightened. :greengrin

Whether they like it or not, though, they ARE a creditor. That's the key here.

If they want to vote against the CVA, that's their prerogative. However, by any definition, RFC owe them money.

[jonny]

Just saw some rumours doing the rounds that Rangers have lodged liquidation papers with companies house. I'd imagine this is probably incorrect information but thought I'd put it out there to see if any one else has heard this. I've not been able to find the actual source of this but there's numerous mentions about it on twitter.

[CropleyWasGod]

Just saw some rumours doing the rounds that Rangers have lodged liquidation papers with companies house. I'd imagine this is probably incorrect information but thought I'd put it out there to see if any one else has heard this. I've not been able to find the actual source of this but there's numerous mentions about it on twitter.

AFAIK, the company has to call a creditors' meeting before it can do that.

[jonny]

AFAIK, the company has to call a creditors' meeting before it can do that.

As I expected then... nonsense.

[greenginger]

Just saw some rumours doing the rounds that Rangers have lodged liquidation papers with companies house. I'd imagine this is probably incorrect information but thought I'd put it out there to see if any one else has heard this. I've not been able to find the actual source of this but there's numerous mentions about it on twitter.


It is a false alarm , the new papers lodged at Companies House by Duff and Phelps relate to the Creditors Statement of a couple of weeks ago.

I wish the Tax Tribunal would publish so the Yams can get their very ugly letter from HMRC as well. :aok:

[green glory]

IIRC a few weeks back, the creditors meeting was scheduled for 20th April. Duff and Duffer have said they want a preferred bidder nailed down by tomorrow too. We'll maybe see some apocalyptic decisions being made in the next 24 hours.

Coincidentally tomorrow is Hitler's birthday.

[CropleyWasGod]

IIRC a few weeks back, the creditors meeting was scheduled for 20th April. Duff and Duffer have said they want a preferred bidder nailed down by tomorrow too. We'll maybe see some apocalyptic decisions being made in the next 24 hours.

Coincidentally tomorrow is Hitler's birthday.

Please don't use the words "apocalyptic" and "Hitler" in the same post :greengrin

The first creditors' meeting, AFAIK, has to be held within 10 weeks of the start of the administration. That 10 weeks is up next week, hence the scheduling.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not so sure about that.

At the moment, the estimated debt is £134m, which contains an estimate of HMRC debt at £75m; £15m of that is uncontested, and presumably £60m is the BTC.

If the BTC goes Rangers way, total debt is reduced to £74m, of which £15m is due to HMRC. If the rest of the creditors vote for a CVA, and that's almost 80%, it will be passed.

Your numbers are slightly out there CWG.

The £134M is best case BTC verdict and max penalties putting total HMRC debt at £93M or 69%.
Worst case Huns win BTC and Ticketus included as £27M creditor: total debt is £55M with HMRC at £15M or 27%.

[CropleyWasGod]

Your numbers are slightly out there CWG.

The £134M is best case BTC verdict and max penalties putting total HMRC debt at £93M or 69%.
Worst case Huns win BTC and Ticketus included as £27M creditor: total debt is £55M with HMRC at £15M or 27%.

This all happened when I was away, so maybe i didn't get the figures right. I relied on the headline figures from BBC, rather than the font of all knowledge that is Hibs.net :greengrin

I thought HMRC were in for £75m IN TOTO, including the BTC and the uncontested part?

[JeMeSouviens]

This all happened when I was away, so maybe i didn't get the figures right. I relied on the headline figures from BBC, rather than the fount of all knowledge that is Hibs.net :greengrin

I thought HMRC were in for £75m IN TOTO, including the BTC and the uncontested part?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17628749



Rangers' administrators estimate that the club's total debts could top £134m.

The figure is revealed in an administrators' report to creditors published on the club's website.

A total of more than £93m is being claimed by HM Revenue and Customs, relating to the so-called big and small tax cases, and unpaid VAT and PAYE.

[green glory]

Please don't use the words "apocalyptic" and "Hitler" in the same post :greengrin

The first creditors' meeting, AFAIK, has to be held within 10 weeks of the start of the administration. That 10 weeks is up next week, hence the scheduling.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17600284

This is the story I was talking about. Almost got it right. Initial proposals have been put to the creditors, who have till tomorrow so signal their agreement or not.

Tomorrow is clearly an important date, and hopefully we'll start to see them pushed ever closer to the abyss.

Hun Apocalypse!

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-17628749

Okay, ta.

What is clear is that the HMRC debt, ignoring the BTC, is going to be round about 25%. That is important, IMO. The admins will try and minimise the percentage (as they appear to have done in the Portsmouth case); HMRC will argue for a higher percentage.

That debate, in itself, will be interesting.

[JeMeSouviens]

Okay, ta.

What is clear is that the HMRC debt, ignoring the BTC, is going to be round about 25%. That is important, IMO. The admins will try and minimise the percentage (as they appear to have done in the Portsmouth case); HMRC will argue for a higher percentage.

That debate, in itself, will be interesting.

Fingers crossed the FTT verdict will be back by then and Hector will be armed to the teeth. :wink:

[magpie1892]

I'm not so sure about that.

At the moment, the estimated debt is £134m, which contains an estimate of HMRC debt at £75m; £15m of that is uncontested, and presumably £60m is the BTC.

If the BTC goes Rangers way, total debt is reduced to £74m, of which £15m is due to HMRC. If the rest of the creditors vote for a CVA, and that's almost 80%, it will be passed.

I'm pretty sure, on the figures I was aware of - and others have posted here - that the only way hun will get a CVA is if HMRC do not oppose it. HMRC have significantly more than 25% of the outstanding debt, enough of a %age to remove hun wriggle room.

BTC is almost certain to go against them. That will settle it. If the hun somehow win the BTC then what chance HMRC both a) not appealing, and b) voting for 8p/£ in a CVA.

It's all over.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm pretty sure, on the figures I was aware of - and others have posted here - that the only way hun will get a CVA is if HMRC do not oppose it. HMRC have significantly more than 25% of the outstanding debt, enough of a %age to remove hun wriggle room.

BTC is almost certain to go against them. That will settle it. If the hun somehow win the BTC then what chance HMRC both a) not appealing, and b) voting for 8p/£ in a CVA.

It's all over.

You got an insider?

[CropleyWasGod]

Fingers crossed the FTT verdict will be back by then and Hector will be armed to the teeth. :wink:

Gonna come back to the HMRC percentage again. Sorry.

The total HMRC debt in the admins report is £93m. Of that, I understand that £75m is for the BTC, £4m for the Wee Tax Case and the remaining £14m for uncontested debt.

Soooo... if RFC win both the BTC and the WTC...... HMRC's debt reduces to £14m, out of a total of £55m. ie 25.5%

You can sense my cynical unease here, can't you? :rolleyes:

[magpie1892]

You got an insider?

Yes and no. 'Yes' in that I know a couple of journos who have said that the outcome of the BTC is known to more than just the three judges and they know someone who knows someone, etc., who know the verdict, and that verdict is the hun are going to take a big skelp from Her Maj. 'No' in that, trying to put aside how repellent I find just about everything to do with hun, is that based on my (limited, but nonetheless vocational - former editor of business magazines in both UAE and Qatar) knowledge of these things, the political ramifications and how appalling it's going to look if the hun win BTC (added to the fact that HMRC have already said they will appeal an acquittal), I don't see any other outcome.

This combination of factors, and others of relevance discussed elsewhere on this thread, lead me to the 'liquidation is inevitable' conclusion. Even by their own admission, many people who think the hun are going to dodge a bullet are basing this on the club's standing and influence (ill-deserved, but tangible nonetheless) and 'a feeling', rather than the facts themselves. A credo with which I have a great deal of sympathy, it has to be said, but I'm (reasonably) confident the facts will win the day and, this being so, cheerio.

[Caversham Green]

Gonna come back to the HMRC percentage again. Sorry.

The total HMRC debt in the admins report is £93m. Of that, I understand that £75m is for the BTC, £4m for the Wee Tax Case and the remaining £14m for uncontested debt.

Soooo... if RFC win both the BTC and the WTC...... HMRC's debt reduces to £14m, out of a total of £55m. ie 25.5%

You can sense my cynical unease here, can't you? :rolleyes:

When you unround the figures the the admitted amount due to HMRC is actually about 25.93% of the £55m, but that is before the amounts due to employees and season ticket holders which have yet to be determined. Assuming they complete their fixtures the ST holders shouldn't be a problem but the amounts due to employees needs to be around £2m to take HMRC's debt below the 25% level. I suppose much depends on how they negotiated those wage reductions here.

On the tax cases, I thought the wee one had been decided and the question was about the amount of penalties. Similarly, from what has been written, the big tax case liability is unlikely to be zero and the tribunal is more about details of indivual contracts rather than the whole principle.

I can understand (and share) your concerns but there would have to be a lot of creative accounting to get that debt below 25%.

[CropleyWasGod]

When you unround the figures the the admitted amount due to HMRC is actually about 25.93% of the £55m, but that is before the amounts due to employees and season ticket holders which have yet to be determined. Assuming they complete their fixtures the ST holders shouldn't be a problem but the amounts due to employees needs to be around £2m to take HMRC's debt below the 25% level. I suppose much depends on how they negotiated those wage reductions here.

On the tax cases, I thought the wee one had been decided and the question was about the amount of penalties. Similarly, from what has been written, the big tax case liability is unlikely to be zero and the tribunal is more about details of indivual contracts rather than the whole principle.

I can understand (and share) your concerns but there would have to be a lot of creative accounting to get that debt below 25%.

I accept the challenge! :cb

[Caversham Green]

I accept the challenge! :cb

I suspect someone at Duff & Phelps is already on it.

[ancienthibby]

Yes and no. 'Yes' in that I know a couple of journos who have said that the outcome of the BTC is known to more than just the three judges and they know someone who knows someone, etc., who know the verdict, and that verdict is the hun are going to take a big skelp from Her Maj. 'No' in that, trying to put aside how repellent I find just about everything to do with hun, is that based on my (limited, but nonetheless vocational - former editor of business magazines in both UAE and Qatar) knowledge of these things, the political ramifications and how appalling it's going to look if the hun win BTC (added to the fact that HMRC have already said they will appeal an acquittal), I don't see any other outcome.

This combination of factors, and others of relevance discussed elsewhere on this thread, lead me to the 'liquidation is inevitable' conclusion. Even by their own admission, many people who think the hun are going to dodge a bullet are basing this on the club's standing and influence (ill-deserved, but tangible nonetheless) and 'a feeling', rather than the facts themselves. A credo with which I have a great deal of sympathy, it has to be said, but I'm (reasonably) confident the facts will win the day and, this being so, cheerio.

May it be Mr Magpie, may it be!!:rockin:

[jgl07]

When you unround the figures the the admitted amount due to HMRC is actually about 25.93% of the £55m, but that is before the amounts due to employees and season ticket holders which have yet to be determined. Assuming they complete their fixtures the ST holders shouldn't be a problem but the amounts due to employees needs to be around £2m to take HMRC's debt below the 25% level. I suppose much depends on how they negotiated those wage reductions here.

On the tax cases, I thought the wee one had been decided and the question was about the amount of penalties. Similarly, from what has been written, the big tax case liability is unlikely to be zero and the tribunal is more about details of individual contracts rather than the whole principle.

I can understand (and share) your concerns but there would have to be a lot of creative accounting to get that debt below 25%.

What the Portsmouth administrators did was to wrongly classify a debtor as a creditor. This pushed up the debts and helped to ensure that HMRC remained just below 25% of the total.

[JeMeSouviens]

Gonna come back to the HMRC percentage again. Sorry.

The total HMRC debt in the admins report is £93m. Of that, I understand that £75m is for the BTC, £4m for the Wee Tax Case and the remaining £14m for uncontested debt.

Soooo... if RFC win both the BTC and the WTC...... HMRC's debt reduces to £14m, out of a total of £55m. ie 25.5%

You can sense my cynical unease here, can't you? :rolleyes:

The Hun settled with HMRC on a WTC figure of £2.8M, they were only disputing the penalties.

[greenginger]

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_790386.html


Looks like Singapore Bill is getting fed up with Ibrox Circus and who could blame him.


Imagine a Club with the stature of Rangers F C not playing fair with Johnny Foreigner. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_790386.html


Looks like Singapore Bill is getting fed up with Ibrox Circus and who could blame him.


Imagine a Club with the stature of Rangers F C not playing fair with Johnny Foreigner. :greengrin

I can't read the full story... too mean to subscribe :greengrin... but it looks like it's Ticketus he's p'd off with, not RFC.

Imagine them trying to recoup their investment, eh no?

[Seveno]

When you unround the figures the the admitted amount due to HMRC is actually about 25.93% of the £55m, but that is before the amounts due to employees and season ticket holders which have yet to be determined. Assuming they complete their fixtures the ST holders shouldn't be a problem but the amounts due to employees needs to be around £2m to take HMRC's debt below the 25% level. I suppose much depends on how they negotiated those wage reductions here.

On the tax cases, I thought the wee one had been decided and the question was about the amount of penalties. Similarly, from what has been written, the big tax case liability is unlikely to be zero and the tribunal is more about details of indivual contracts rather than the whole principle.

I can understand (and share) your concerns but there would have to be a lot of creative accounting to get that debt below 25%.

Am I correct in thinking that Hector's meter is still running at the judicial rate of interest of 8% ? Or is it suspended pending the decision by the FTT ?

[jgl07]

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_790386.html


Looks like Singapore Bill is getting fed up with Ibrox Circus and who could blame him.


Imagine a Club with the stature of Rangers F C not playing fair with Johnny Foreigner. :greengrin

So the Knights who say Ng are now the Knights who say No.

[Seveno]

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/

A fascinating analysis of Rangers financial position through to the end of June which will have CWG and Cav drooling all night, no doubt.

His conclusion is as follows :

' For there to be an attempt for a “Rangers” to survive, Duff & Phelps would need to sell off the assets of Rangers Football Club PLC to a buyer in sufficient time for that purchaser to organise a license to play in the SFL/SPL, and for all arrangements to be put in place for a team to start next season.
The longer Duff & Phelps succeed in keeping the doors open, the less chance there is for a new owner of a “Rangers” to get everything in order in time for preparation of fixture lists for next season, for example.
I am coming to the view that there is almost certainly not going to be a Rangers, nor indeed a “Rangers” playing in Scottish football next season (apart from the team from Berwick of course).
The best, and possibly now only way to get over the hurdles of time and potential legal challenge to any sale as mentioned above, would be for a person or consortium looking to save “Rangers” to buy an existing club, and rebrand it, moving it, ideally, but subject to agreeing rent with the owner, to Ibrox.
It appeared that Rangers may have tried this with St Mirren and there are rumours that Cowdenbeath could be ripe for takeover. We will need to wait and see. '


Now who do me know at Cowdenbeath that might be receptive to such discussions ? :cb

[Famous Fiver]

Have I missed something here?

I haven't wadde my way through 170 pages of threads to catch up but from reading a few recent posts is it correct that HMRC are accepting £2.8 million in settlement of the PAYE and NI unpaid since Craig Whyte came to power, which was reported at £9 million, and increasing to £14 million with interest and ongoing non payment?

If that is the case, that alone should be enough to get Rangers kicked out of the SPL, because they quite blatantly have not paid their dues. I know that HMRC are no longer preferred creditors but surely there is some SPL rule covering running your club in a financially questionable way. How does this square with UEFA requirements for proper governance?

How can they get away with not paying taxes when all other clubs have to? Is HMRC going to make a pro rata refund to all SPL clubs to equalise the playing field?

Anyone able to throw some light on it?

[PaulSmith]

Brian Kennedy told to bolt and admin say a 2nd offer is that bad it won't be accepted.

Yet he was rangers hero by Keith Jackson only yesterday :)

[Hibernia&Alba]

Brian Kennedy told to bolt and admin say a 2nd offer is that bad it won't be accepted.

Yet he was rangers hero by Keith Jackson only yesterday :)

Aye, Kennedy told to GTF by Fud and Feltch, and preferred bidder needed by end of play tomorrow.

Tick tock Huns :greengrin

[Kaiser1962]

What the Portsmouth administrators did was to wrongly classify a debtor as a creditor. This pushed up the debts and helped to ensure that HMRC remained just below 25% of the total.


What happened at Portsmouth explained here;

http://web3dlaw.wordpress.com/2012/04/17/a-look-at-portsmouth-for-guidance-on-football-clubs-and-creditor-voluntary-agreements-25/


HMRC didnt exactly roll over and take it and one can only hope they have learned from this episode and are better prepared for the days ahead because of this.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

What the Portsmouth administrators did was to wrongly classify a debtor as a creditor. This pushed up the debts and helped to ensure that HMRC remained just below 25% of the total.

What a mistaka-ta-maka!

[Killiehibbie]

When they going to do us all a favour and turn the life support machine off?

[jgl07]

Have I missed something here?

I haven't wadde my way through 170 pages of threads to catch up but from reading a few recent posts is it correct that HMRC are accepting £2.8 million in settlement of the PAYE and NI unpaid since Craig Whyte came to power, which was reported at £9 million, and increasing to £14 million with interest and ongoing non payment?


Where did you hear that?

It sounds like a right load of codswallop to me.

[CropleyWasGod]

Have I missed something here?

I haven't wadde my way through 170 pages of threads to catch up but from reading a few recent posts is it correct that HMRC are accepting £2.8 million in settlement of the PAYE and NI unpaid since Craig Whyte came to power, which was reported at £9 million, and increasing to £14 million with interest and ongoing non payment?

If that is the case, that alone should be enough to get Rangers kicked out of the SPL, because they quite blatantly have not paid their dues. I know that HMRC are no longer preferred creditors but surely there is some SPL rule covering running your club in a financially questionable way. How does this square with UEFA requirements for proper governance?

How can they get away with not paying taxes when all other clubs have to? Is HMRC going to make a pro rata refund to all SPL clubs to equalise the playing field?

Anyone able to throw some light on it?

Yeah.

The £2.8m was in settlement of the Wee Tax Case.

The £14m, for ongoing PAYE and VAT, is still due. It will be rising by the week.

The Big Tax Case (for £49m or £75m, depending on who you believe) has still to be decided.

[spike220]

So the Knights who say Ng are now the Knights who say No.

Great Monty Python quote!!:greengrin

Cleverest quip I have heard on hibs net this week.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Big Tax Case (for £49m or £75m, depending on who you believe) has still to be decided.

From the RTC blog, the HMRC claim is for £24M of unpaid tax. Interest is due for every day it's overdue and has been comounding nicely (the EBT payments in question go back as far as 2000/01), penalties will be imposed dependent on just how much of a bunch of cheating ****bags they were.

[ScottB]

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/

A fascinating analysis of Rangers financial position through to the end of June which will have CWG and Cav drooling all night, no doubt.

His conclusion is as follows :

' For there to be an attempt for a “Rangers” to survive, Duff & Phelps would need to sell off the assets of Rangers Football Club PLC to a buyer in sufficient time for that purchaser to organise a license to play in the SFL/SPL, and for all arrangements to be put in place for a team to start next season.
The longer Duff & Phelps succeed in keeping the doors open, the less chance there is for a new owner of a “Rangers” to get everything in order in time for preparation of fixture lists for next season, for example.
I am coming to the view that there is almost certainly not going to be a Rangers, nor indeed a “Rangers” playing in Scottish football next season (apart from the team from Berwick of course).
The best, and possibly now only way to get over the hurdles of time and potential legal challenge to any sale as mentioned above, would be for a person or consortium looking to save “Rangers” to buy an existing club, and rebrand it, moving it, ideally, but subject to agreeing rent with the owner, to Ibrox.
It appeared that Rangers may have tried this with St Mirren and there are rumours that Cowdenbeath could be ripe for takeover. We will need to wait and see. '


Now who do me know at Cowdenbeath that might be receptive to such discussions ? :cb

I've long suspected them buying another club, Airdrie style, was the most logical route out of this, mainly as there is precedent for it...

[CropleyWasGod]

From the RTC blog, the HMRC claim is for £24M of unpaid tax. Interest is due for every day it's overdue and has been comounding nicely (the EBT payments in question go back as far as 2000/01), penalties will be imposed dependent on just how much of a bunch of cheating ****bags they were.

I had read £35m for tax, and £14m for interest and penalties.

Soon.... :greengrin

[HibbyDave]

Of more interest to me is whether or not "Newco Rankgers" walk straight into SPL. If they do I can only hope that we win the holy grail because I will never attend another Scottish (SPL) football match after the final.

I work too hard to give my cash to a corrupt organisation full of self interest. Oh yes, still waiting for a statement from Hibs on our position regarding this if they go into liquidation.

Let's not get too wrapped up in the cup final mania to take our eye off the ball here.
GGTTH

[ACLeith]

I've long suspected them buying another club, Airdrie style, was the most logical route out of this, mainly as there is precedent for it...

IIRC Airdrie took Clydebank's place in the league they were in at the time? So assuming Cowdenbeath get promoted, then the taken-over club would be in the first division?

[Famous Fiver]

CWG

Thanks for your information. Excellent as always.

I just don't want to see them get away with paying a penny less to the taxman than what is due.

I've just posted off my annual tax return, doesn't need to be in until 31st October btw, but I am keen to ensure I stay on the right side of the taxman. If I don't they are down on me like a ton of bricks for a few hundred quid. Nothing like the mega millions RFC are trying to get away with.

[The Falcon]

Of more interest to me is whether or not "Newco Rankgers" walk straight into SPL. If they do I can only hope that we win the holy grail because I will never attend another Scottish (SPL) football match after the final.

I work too hard to give my cash to a corrupt organisation full of self interest. Oh yes, still waiting for a statement from Hibs on our position regarding this if they go into liquidation.

Let's not get too wrapped up in the cup final mania to take our eye off the ball here.
GGTTH


I think its a bit unfair asking that the club officially comment on a situation that they have no control over and, in reality, till something happens that may affect Hibernian then it is purely an internal matter for Rangers.

[CropleyWasGod]

CWG

Thanks for your information. Excellent as always.

I just don't want to see them get away with paying a penny less to the taxman than what is due.

I've just posted off my annual tax return, doesn't need to be in until 31st October btw, but I am keen to ensure I stay on the right side of the taxman. If I don't they are down on me like a ton of bricks for a few hundred quid. Nothing like the mega millions RFC are trying to get away with.

<sigh> I wish all my clients were like you.

The bill is in the post. :cb

[greenginger]

IIRC Airdrie took Clydebank's place in the league they were in at the time? So assuming Cowdenbeath get promoted, then the taken-over club would be in the first divisioney ?


If Rangers F C in administration buy Cowdenbeath to re-start their existence in the SFL they should always be referred to by all other clubs as Cowdenbeath F C to mock them forever.

Also the idea that they could somehow transfer their history to a New-Co or a club they buy is bizarre.

If the liquidated assets of Rangers F C were sold off and say Ross County out bid the New - Co for Rangers good-will ( history ) would anyone seriously believe Ross County if they claimed to have won fifty league titles and countless cups ?

If der Hun is liquidated their history is liquidated as well, if they want to keep their history let them propose a 10 - 20 year plan to repay all their creditors in full including interest.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think its a bit unfair asking that the club officially comment on a situation that they have no control over and, in reality, till something happens that may affect Hibernian then it is purely an internal matter for Rangers.

I would agree.

I would also add that putting one's views into the public domain at this stage might give "the other side" advance warning of one's position. It's often best in these situations to keep the powder dry until it's needed.

[HibbyDave]

I think its a bit unfair asking that the club officially comment on a situation that they have no control over and, in reality, till something happens that may affect Hibernian then it is purely an internal matter for Rangers.

I understand that. Other club chairmen (Dunfermline, Dundee utd I think) have stated their opposiiton to Newco retaining SPL status. Our board traditionally say nowt and that's OK to some extent. Meanwhile the people who alledgely matter - the fans are being asked to pay up front for season tickets etc when we don't even know if our own future is in Div 1 or SP Hell. I would simply ask RP to state Hibs position regarding the morality of Newco retaining a place IF it come to pass that Rankgers are liquidated. It's not meaningless speculation, the SPL is a big business and the paying public should be worthy of some insight into where the board are taking the club.

Also, if Rankgers were demoted to DIV 3 they would return quickly and more importantly they would be spreading wealth through the lower Divs with their massive travelling support that everyone seems to depend on for their balance sheet figures.

Still let's focus on the distraction of the cup and let all this "big finance" matters lie with those who Ken aboot these things.

GGTTH

[Green Man]

Chris McLaughlin reporting that Bill Ng has withdrawn his bid now.

Are there any bidders left?

[CropleyWasGod]

Chris McLaughlin reporting that Bill Ng has withdrawn his bid now.

Are there any bidders left?

Just the American asset-stripper. :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Chris McLaughlin reporting that Bill Ng has withdrawn his bid now.

Are there any bidders left?

I'm happy to put £1 into any consortium that can overcome the problem of bulldozing a listed building.

[down the slope]

This ,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17783064
is this a Singapore sling ?.

[CentreLine]

Chris McLaughlin reporting that Bill Ng has withdrawn his bid now.

Are there any bidders left?


Is today, 20th April, not a very significant date in the process? I think I read on one of CWG's posts that D&F had to have a progress meeting of some sort by this date. Would that be with creditors or with the court that appointed them?


It looks like, one by one, the bidders are realising that Rangers are a basket case. I wonder when D&F will get their heads round that too

[CentreLine]

If Rangers F C in administration buy Cowdenbeath to re-start their existence in the SFL they should always be referred to by all other clubs as Cowdenbeath F C to mock them forever.

Also the idea that they could somehow transfer their history to a New-Co or a club they buy is bizarre.

If the liquidated assets of Rangers F C were sold off and say Ross County out bid the New - Co for Rangers good-will ( history ) would anyone seriously believe Ross County if they claimed to have won fifty league titles and countless cups ?

If der Hun is liquidated their history is liquidated as well, if they want to keep their history let them propose a 10 - 20 year plan to repay all their creditors in full including interest.

Hmmm, wonder how much they will bid for Hahahahearts. They can offer Romanov a small amount for the club and would not have any need for a ground so Romanov could then dispose of that at a small profit and get himself out of Scotland all together. Win win for the subscribers to the cheats charter

[DaveF]

Sheesh - Is this saga still going on?

Someone shoot the *******. It's the only humane way.

[CropleyWasGod]

Is today, 20th April, not a very significant date in the process? I think I read on one of CWG's posts that D&F had to have a progress meeting of some sort by this date. Would that be with creditors or with the court that appointed them?


It looks like, one by one, the bidders are realising that Rangers are a basket case. I wonder when D&F will get their heads round that too

I don't think today is too significant, unless you're a Nazi sympathiser.

Today, AFAIK, is a statutory procedural meeting of creditors.

However, given the events of this week, it could turn out to be more than that. I am sure that the admins hoped to be able to tell creditors that they had a preferred bidder in place. Now the meeting could be a little uncomfortable for them.

[CropleyWasGod]

Sheesh - Is this saga still going on?

Someone shoot the *******. It's the only humane way.

Um... humane? GTF :greengrin

[hibs0666]

Seeing as there is only one bid still standing, why can't Duff & Duffer not name their 'preferred bidder' right now?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Ng is out, but some Huns seem to think the Blue Knights are back in. Anyone know?

[CropleyWasGod]

Seeing as there is only one bid still standing, why can't Duff & Duffer not name their 'preferred bidder' right now?


The BK only "stood back" from the process. Now that Billy Ng has withdrawn, maybe Ticketus will get back into bed with them.

[stokesmessiah]

Does anyone actually know when the wages revert back to the their usual levels? Is it the end of the season? I am sure i had read somewhere it was until the end of April but it may be a figment of my imagination.

[JeMeSouviens]

I just don't want to see them get away with paying a penny less to the taxman than what is due.


There is not a snowball's chance in hell of that happening. There are only 2 feasible options:

1. They exit admin via CVA, an agreement whereby HMRC would have to accept something like £10M in full settlement of whatever they are finally owed whether that's £15M or £95M.

2. They liquidate (whatever spin they try and put on this, this is the death of the current Rangers Football Club) and their assets are sold. Since Ibrox is of **** all use for anything other than a football stadium, the usual logic is that the best value for the assets will be realised by selling them in one lump to a Newco.

As HMRC are usually implacably opposed to football CVAs and the difference in the sum available from the 2 options is likely to be not that great, option 2 is far more likely.

[Green Man]

Does anyone actually know when the wages revert back to the their usual levels? Is it the end of the season? I am sure i had read somewhere it was until the end of April but it may be a figment of my imagination.

End of the season according to this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17308715)

[JeMeSouviens]

Does anyone actually know when the wages revert back to the their usual levels? Is it the end of the season? I am sure i had read somewhere it was until the end of April but it may be a figment of my imagination.

1st of June.

[hibs0666]

Does anyone actually know when the wages revert back to the their usual levels? Is it the end of the season? I am sure i had read somewhere it was until the end of April but it may be a figment of my imagination.

Dunno, but the huns cash runs out in June.

[Saorsa]

Sheesh - Is this saga still going on?

Someone shoot the *******. It's the only humane way.Shoot? Humane? nah! Hang them with piano wire. :agree:

[CropleyWasGod]

Dunno, but the huns cash runs out in June.

:agree: increasingly important this is.

[ScottB]

IIRC Airdrie took Clydebank's place in the league they were in at the time? So assuming Cowdenbeath get promoted, then the taken-over club would be in the first division?

Yup, they'd end up in the league of whatever club they bought.

Frankly it's almost as distasteful as the newco option, to kill a club to save their own rotting carcass, but as there is a precedent for it with Airdrie, they couldn't be stopped.

I don't think Airdrie even incurred any punishments for it either, so of all ways that would be the one that would truly get them off scot free. A pity the nonsensical fair play rules didn't consider this gambit.

[Newry Hibs]

Yup, they'd end up in the league of whatever club they bought.

Frankly it's almost as distasteful as the newco option, to kill a club to save their own rotting carcass, but as there is a precedent for it with Airdrie, they couldn't be stopped.

I don't think Airdrie even incurred any punishments for it either, so of all ways that would be the one that would truly get them off scot free. A pity the nonsensical fair play rules didn't consider this gambit.

But aren't Airdrie Utd just Clydebank with a different name? So any titles and history Clydebank had carry on with Airdire Utd (I know probably in name only as they are effectively Airdrieonions (sp)). Who do old Cydebank and Airdrieonions fans support?

In England MK Dons are credited with the FA Cup win in 1988 - although they did pass on the 'moral victory' to AFC Wimbledon.

[jgl07]

But aren't Airdrie Utd just Clydebank with a different name? So any titles and history Clydebank had carry on with Airdire Utd (I know probably in name only as they are effectively Airdrieonions (sp)). Who do old Cydebank and Airdrieonions fans support?


There was a sort of poetic justice about the demise of Clydebank as they originally tried to do that to East Stirlingshire in the mid-1960s. The club moved to Clydebank for a year and competed as ES Clydebank before a legal challenge restored the team back to Falkirk. Clydebank were admitted to the league in their own right the following season.

Clydebank tried to move to Dublin in the 1990s. I think this was vetoed by the SFL or the SFA and the club continued its decline eventually playing at Boghead.

After Clydebank were renamed as Airdrie United and moved to Aidrie, the clubs crest and name was passed on to the supporters group and the Clydebank was reformed in the Juniors, right back where they started.

[Newry Hibs]

There was a sort of poetic justice about the demise of Clydebank as they originally tried to do that to East Stirlingshire in the mid-1960s. The club moved to Clydebank for a year and competed as ES Clydebank before a legal challenge restored the team back to Falkirk. Clydebank were admitted to the league in their own right the following season.

Clydebank tried to move to Dublin in the 1990s. I think this was vetoed by the SFL or the SFA and the club continued its decline eventually playing at Boghead.

After Clydebank were renamed as Airdrie United and moved to Aidrie, the clubs crest and name was passed on to the supporters group and the Clydebank was reformed in the Juniors, right back where they started.

Are they still going? I do remember one bleak cup defeat there 20 or so years ago. Was surprised it was an all seater stadium!

[Seveno]

Of more interest to me is whether or not "Newco Rankgers" walk straight into SPL. If they do I can only hope that we win the holy grail because I will never attend another Scottish (SPL) football match after the final.

I work too hard to give my cash to a corrupt organisation full of self interest. Oh yes, still waiting for a statement from Hibs on our position regarding this if they go into liquidation.

Let's not get too wrapped up in the cup final mania to take our eye off the ball here.
GGTTH

I think that everything that has come out of our club suggests that they will vote for sporting integrity. There is no point in making any statement until it is fully known what is left to vote on. It might not need a vote if Rangers totally disappear. :greengrin

[Seveno]

How would we feel if they bought Hearts ? Hilariously funny at first, but longer term ?

[CentreLine]

How would we feel if they bought Hearts ? Hilariously funny at first, but longer term ?

Longer term would be just fine since they would move the whole thing to Glasgow. Only one team in Edinburgh but there would still be that residual rivalry when they came to town

[Moulin Yarns]

Airdrieonions .


:faf:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Who's this Miller guy on SSN? I don't know anything about him.

[jgl07]

Are they still going? I do remember one bleak cup defeat there 20 or so years ago. Was surprised it was an all seater stadium!

I believe that Kilbowie was the first all-seater stadium in Scotland (although Aberdeen have a claim).

Jack Steedman was too mean to put in new crash barriers and worked out that it was cheaper to put bench seating in.

Kilbowie was sold for development and the team groundshared with a number of clubs. When they were at Boghead they printed the name of every season ticket holder in the programme!

They seem to be going really well in the Juniors now.

http://www.clydebankfc.co.uk/2012/

[cabbageandribs1875]

How would we feel if they bought Hearts ? Hilariously funny at first, but longer term ?


Hertz could then be officially Edinburgh Rangers, instead of just kid-on Diet ones :agree:

[7 Hills]

How would we feel if they bought Hearts ? Hilariously funny at first, but longer term ?

Would they want to take on Hearts' debts though? I think they'd be more likely to target a club such as Livingston, or one of the smaller SPL sides.

[Part/Time Supporter]

But aren't Airdrie Utd just Clydebank with a different name? So any titles and history Clydebank had carry on with Airdire Utd (I know probably in name only as they are effectively Airdrieonions (sp)). Who do old Cydebank and Airdrieonions fans support?

In England MK Dons are credited with the FA Cup win in 1988 - although they did pass on the 'moral victory' to AFC Wimbledon.

They're not. MK Dons gave the history to Merton Council.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/w/wimbledon/6927439.stm

[linlithgowhibbie]

Shoot? Humane? nah! Hang them with piano wire. :agree:

From their goolies?:pfgwa

[grunt]

CWG / CG - your next challenge is to explain what an incubator company is, and does it mean the end for Rangers?

[CropleyWasGod]

CWG / CG - your next challenge is to explain what an incubator company is, and does it mean the end for Rangers?

Fuctifano.

Is this a new buzz-word? I canny keep up with that stuff.

Where's my abacus?

[Caversham Green]

CWG / CG - your next challenge is to explain what an incubator company is, and does it mean the end for Rangers?


Fuctifano.

Is this a new buzz-word? I canny keep up with that stuff.

Where's my abacus?

Fuctifanoanaw.

The only incubation thing I'm aware of is business incubation which I believe is broadly a hand holding exercise for start-up companies. I don't know a lot about it, but it soulds like a glorified business consultancy dedicated to new companies - charge a fortune to tell them stuff that me and Crops would have said at basic charge out rates.

What's the context here grunt?

[grunt]

Alasdair Lamont ‏ tweets -
Bill Miller has unveiled plans for an #11.2million bid for Rangers which would create an "incubator" company that effectively works to radiate the toxicity of past administrations' sins out of the patient while the healthy heart is preserved
Bill Miller: "In order to preserve the club's history, records, championships and assets, I will put the heart of the club.....while Duff and Phelps bid to take the club out of administration through a CVA... and moves forward."
He has suspended his offer until Monday to allow other bidders to "put up or shut up".
Miller: Of the 3 qualified bidders, I'm the only 1 who refused to entertain offers from Ticketus or engage in discussions with Craig Whyte.
BM: It's difficult for me to see how any parties who were present when this awful situation was created can be a legitimate part of solution
BM After careful evaluation of a CVA, it's become apparent there are substantial roadblocks and risks associated with such an approach.
BM says as things stand, Ticketus could block CVA as the debt to them is greater than 25% of total amount owed
There is no way that Ticketus would agree to accept a "pence on the pound" settlement as has been suggested by others.
It is apparent that there will be several lawsuits that will emerge in relation to a potential CVA exit among the various creditors...and claimants (you pick them), which will need to be settled by the courts.

[grunt]

BM I have held a series of talks over the past week with officials from the SPL and SFA in an effort to ensure Rangers play in the 2012/13..

season without further points deductions, fines or other punitive sanctions, relating to either the terms of my purchase
...or the actions of the prior administrations, beyond those levied during the 2011/12 season.

BM My offer is contingent upon the regulatory bodies agreeing the club will begin play in the 2012/13 season in the SPL and that they will
...do so without any loss of points and with all historic titles intact. I will not acquire the club unless I receive written assurances...

[JeMeSouviens]

CWG / CG - your next challenge is to explain what an incubator company is, and does it mean the end for Rangers?

Just another name for a newco. It's all smoke and mirrors designed to let them whisk the corpse of the old Rangers out the back door while they bring in the tax dodging body double through the front. :rolleyes:

[Caversham Green]

Alasdair Lamont ‏ tweets -
Bill Miller has unveiled plans for an #11.2million bid for Rangers which would create an "incubator" company that effectively works to radiate the toxicity of past administrations' sins out of the patient while the healthy heart is preserved
Bill Miller: "In order to preserve the club's history, records, championships and assets, I will put the heart of the club.....while Duff and Phelps bid to take the club out of administration through a CVA... and moves forward."
He has suspended his offer until Monday to allow other bidders to "put up or shut up".
Miller: Of the 3 qualified bidders, I'm the only 1 who refused to entertain offers from Ticketus or engage in discussions with Craig Whyte.
BM: It's difficult for me to see how any parties who were present when this awful situation was created can be a legitimate part of solution
BM After careful evaluation of a CVA, it's become apparent there are substantial roadblocks and risks associated with such an approach.
BM says as things stand, Ticketus could block CVA as the debt to them is greater than 25% of total amount owed
There is no way that Ticketus would agree to accept a "pence on the pound" settlement as has been suggested by others.
It is apparent that there will be several lawsuits that will emerge in relation to a potential CVA exit among the various creditors...and claimants (you pick them), which will need to be settled by the courts.

Sounds similar to a pre-pack administration arrangement done in retrospect, but I can't see how it would avoid all the Newco pitfalls that are discussed at length on this very thread. It sounds like the end is nigh....

[JeMeSouviens]

Bill Miller:

"My offer is contingent upon the regulatory bodies agreeing the club will begin play in the 2012/13 season in the SPL and that they will do so without any loss of points and with all historic titles intact. I will not acquire the club unless I receive written assurances"

That'll be him offski then. Even the super craven SPL won't provide written assurances *before* the vote, will they? So, back to Kennedy and the Blue Knights again ...

[Killiehibbie]

Alasdair Lamont ‏ tweets -
Bill Miller has unveiled plans for an #11.2million bid for Rangers which would create an "incubator" company that effectively works to radiate the toxicity of past administrations' sins out of the patient while the healthy heart is preserved
Bill Miller: "In order to preserve the club's history, records, championships and assets, I will put the heart of the club.....while Duff and Phelps bid to take the club out of administration through a CVA... and moves forward."
He has suspended his offer until Monday to allow other bidders to "put up or shut up".
Miller: Of the 3 qualified bidders, I'm the only 1 who refused to entertain offers from Ticketus or engage in discussions with Craig Whyte.
BM: It's difficult for me to see how any parties who were present when this awful situation was created can be a legitimate part of solution
BM After careful evaluation of a CVA, it's become apparent there are substantial roadblocks and risks associated with such an approach.
BM says as things stand, Ticketus could block CVA as the debt to them is greater than 25% of total amount owed
There is no way that Ticketus would agree to accept a "pence on the pound" settlement as has been suggested by others.
It is apparent that there will be several lawsuits that will emerge in relation to a potential CVA exit among the various creditors...and claimants (you pick them), which will need to be settled by the courts.
Thay can't possibly work as there is nothing healthy that can be saved, certainly not a heart.

[hibs0666]

Fuctifano.

Is this a new buzz-word? I canny keep up with that stuff.

Where's my abacus?

I think it's a wee ruse to get round the SPL rules on liquidation to be honest, but still assumes that an offer to creditors of around £9 million will be deemed acceptable.

[CropleyWasGod]

Bill Miller:

"My offer is contingent upon the regulatory bodies agreeing the club will begin play in the 2012/13 season in the SPL and that they will do so without any loss of points and with all historic titles intact. I will not acquire the club unless I receive written assurances"

That'll be him offski then. Even the super craven SPL won't provide written assurances *before* the vote, will they? So, back to Kennedy and the Blue Knights again ...

Seriously?

Forgive me for being cynical, but that sounds a bit like getting his excuses in first. "I coulda saved dat club, if it wasn't for those pesky kids at the Ess Pee Ell".


Gotta love those Yanks..." radiate the toxicity of past administrations' sins out of the patient while the healthy heart is preserved"

[grunt]

When I take a step back from the detail of all this, I realise that there's not one of the three bidders that I would want as owner of our club.

[CropleyWasGod]

Alasdair Lamont ‏ tweets -
Bill Miller has unveiled plans for an #11.2million bid for Rangers which would create an "incubator" company that effectively works to radiate the toxicity of past administrations' sins out of the patient while the healthy heart is preserved
Bill Miller: "In order to preserve the club's history, records, championships and assets, I will put the heart of the club.....while Duff and Phelps bid to take the club out of administration through a CVA... and moves forward."
He has suspended his offer until Monday to allow other bidders to "put up or shut up".
Miller: Of the 3 qualified bidders, I'm the only 1 who refused to entertain offers from Ticketus or engage in discussions with Craig Whyte.
BM: It's difficult for me to see how any parties who were present when this awful situation was created can be a legitimate part of solution
BM After careful evaluation of a CVA, it's become apparent there are substantial roadblocks and risks associated with such an approach.
BM says as things stand, Ticketus could block CVA as the debt to them is greater than 25% of total amount owed
There is no way that Ticketus would agree to accept a "pence on the pound" settlement as has been suggested by others.
It is apparent that there will be several lawsuits that will emerge in relation to a potential CVA exit among the various creditors...and claimants (you pick them), which will need to be settled by the courts.

Gotta love his arithmetic too.

Total debt £134m. Ticketus £27M?

20%, Billy Boy. :cb

[Caversham Green]

Seriously?

Forgive me for being cynical, but that sounds a bit like getting his excuses in first. "I coulda saved dat club, if it wasn't for those pesky kids at the Ess Pee Ell".


Gotta love those Yanks..." radiate the toxicity of past administrations' sins out of the patient while the healthy heart is preserved"

TBF to Wullie M, if I was bidding for RFC I'd only be interested if they were guaranteed an SPL place next season as well. It's Duff & Phelps expecting unconditional bids in the current circumstances that are the real baddies IMO.

[grunt]

Gotta love his arithmetic too.

Total debt £134m. Ticketus £27M?

20%, Billy Boy. :cb
Looks like he's ignoring the BTC

[CropleyWasGod]

Looks like he's ignoring the BTC

...or maybe, just maybe, he knows something that we don't. :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

Crazy schemes of Miller continued ... :cb



“In order to preserve the club’s history, records, championships and assets, I will put the “heart” of the club into an “incubator” company while Duff & Phelps works to make the “sick patient” healthy through a CVA process that effectively works to “radiate” the toxicity of past administrations’ sins out of the patient while the “healthy heart” is preserved and moves forward. Once the CVA process has been completed and the patient is on the mend, the administrators will return Rangers Football Club plc to me for a nominal sum.
The healthy heart and the healthy patient (The Rangers Football Club plc) will then be reunited through merger. In this scenario, the club can continue with all of its business assets, including its history, protected from the present illness.
Thus a new corporate entity will own the club’s assets during the incubation period including all of its history.
Any suggestion that Rangers history is lost by such a process is preposterous."


Somebody please tell me that even the desperately Hun accommodating Scottish football authorities won't wear this pish. :rolleyes:


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/rangers-takeover-bill-miller-s-statement-in-full-1-2246439

[CropleyWasGod]

Crazy schemes of Miller continued ... :cb



Somebody please tell me that even the desperately Hun accommodating Scottish football authorities won't wear this pish. :rolleyes:


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/rangers-takeover-bill-miller-s-statement-in-full-1-2246439

Okay, he has talked about hearts, and radiation, and incubators.

Where does he mention the cocks and anuses that follow the Huns?

[Caversham Green]

Crazy schemes of Miller continued ... :cb



Somebody please tell me that even the desperately Hun accommodating Scottish football authorities won't wear this pish. :rolleyes:


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/rangers-takeover-bill-miller-s-statement-in-full-1-2246439

I don't see how they can. The SPL still have to vote on proposals raised by their own board (I assume) that contravene his conditions. Giving written confirmation in those circumstances would be fraudulent.

[grunt]

So we have two Rangers FC clubs existing at the same time, one with the "heart", the history and the honours, the other with the debts.
Which one plays on a Saturday?

[Sergio sledge]

Bill Miller:

"My offer is contingent upon the regulatory bodies agreeing the club will begin play in the 2012/13 season in the SPL and that they will do so without any loss of points and with all historic titles intact. I will not acquire the club unless I receive written assurances"

That'll be him offski then. Even the super craven SPL won't provide written assurances *before* the vote, will they? So, back to Kennedy and the Blue Knights again ...

Sounds like his offer is a "newco" by another name, so IMHO there is no chance of him receiving these assurances. But if he did, serious questions would have to be asked of the football authorities in this country beyond the ones already being asked....

So it'll be Miller out now, who's left? Brian Kennedy......

[CropleyWasGod]

Sounds like his offer is a "newco" by another name, so IMHO there is no chance of him receiving these assurances. But if he did, serious questions would have to be asked of the football authorities in this country beyond the ones already being asked....

So it'll be Miller out now, who's left? Brian Kennedy......

He's gone, as well.

The Blue Knights will be back in by Monday morning. :agree:

[Seveno]

Okay, he has talked about hearts, and radiation, and incubators.

Where does he mention the cocks and anuses that follow the Huns?

:top marks

Of all your excellent contributions, this is your best yet.

[CropleyWasGod]

So we have two Rangers FC clubs existing at the same time, one with the "heart", the history and the honours, the other with the debts.
Which one plays on a Saturday?

Andy Goram could play for both.

[CropleyWasGod]

:top marks

Of all your excellent contributions, this is your best yet.

arthur askey smilie

[ancienthibby]

I don't see how they can. The SPL still have to vote on proposals raised by their own board (I assume) that contravene his conditions. Giving written confirmation in those circumstances would be fraudulent.

The SPL/SFA top brass have already shown an unhealthy willingness to subvert their own rules.

To do what is apparently being proposed by Wullie Miller would be the mother and father of the jettisoning of their own rules.

So they try and do it, what would be UEFA's stance?:cb

[Seveno]

The SPL/SFA top brass have already shown an unhealthy willingness to subvert their own rules.

To do what is apparently being proposed by Wullie Miller would be the mother and father of the jettisoning of their own rules.

So they try and do it, what would be UEFA's stance?:cb

Celtic, Motherwell, St Johnstone and Hibs would not be allowed to play in Europe next season.

[Dan Sarf]

Andy Goram could play for both.

:top marks

[ancienthibby]

Celtic, Motherwell, St Johnstone and Hibs would not be allowed to play in Europe next season.

So then, to faciliate RankHuns re-admission to the SPL without penalty per the latest Wullie Miller model, the lesser greens would have to vote themselves out of Europe??:greengrin

Fat chance.

[jacomo]

Miller seems to be proposing that Rangers the business (the bad debts bit) stays in administration indefinitely while he cherry picks whatever assets he chooses (the "good" bits) to run the club without any penalty.

What???

Is it compulsory to be a total blow-hard to be associated with that club?

[greenlex]

I've just spent this afternoon reading all of this thread from start to here. What a ****ing almighty mess Rangers have themselves in.
Shame really.
Just hurry up and die.

[SteveHFC]

I've just spent this afternoon reading all of this thread from start to here. What a ****ing almighty mess Rangers have themselves in.
Shame really.
Just hurry up and die.

:top marks

[JeMeSouviens]

alex thomson ‏ @alextomo Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
Trying for SPL response - seems to take them a long time when the only possible answer to Miller is two words, second "off"?


:top marks

[stokesmessiah]

I've just spent this afternoon reading all of this thread from start to here. What a ****ing almighty mess Rangers have themselves in.
Shame really.
Just hurry up and die.

Funny i have been considering this myself if nothing else for amusement factor.

Re the statement from Miller today, i am really annoyed about it. Someone earlier said do you have to be a total endbell to be associated with the Huns and i think they have hit the nail on the head. The arrogance to release a statement saying he will buy the club as long as every other Scottish football fan rolls over and takes one in the tradesmans is horrendous.

I dont think the guy has a real handle on things at all if he honestly thinks he can leave the toxic debt (as it's now known) in one company and transfer the football club into another and just carry on as if nothings has happened is bizarre at best.

Also, does he just expect UEFA to say "Yes Sir Mr Miller"? I think they will be mightily upset with Der Hun especially with them owing over 1mil to Rapid after having selling Jellyd**k already.

EDIT: For reasons of humour i have kept a close eye on The Bears Den since all this kicked off and the pace at which they change their mind as fans is as hilarious as the naivety of the situation.

Week 1 - I want TBK koz Murray is a pure bear with the club interests at heart.
Week 1 day 2 - That W**K Murray, i dinnae want him neer the peoples club and ticketus can da wan and all
Week 2 - Bill Ng, never heard ay him but hes got heaps o money so he must be one of the people
Week 2 day 2 - That Yank can dae wan an all, winding us up i''ll chib him if i see him.
Week 3 - Wat Bills pulled out here hing on whits that yank saying oh right hes gonna save us and he has heaps o money he must be wan ae the people.

[Seveno]

:top marks

We need to make this man an honorary Hibby.

Maybe even vote him the Player of the Year.

[down the slope]

Administrators admit that Miller has had talks with the football authorities regarding his takeover !. This from sportsound a few minutes ago, wonder if Doncaster is going to let them straight back in ?.

[Kaiser1962]

Appointment of insolvency specialists BDO imminent. Apparently.

[ancienthibby]

Appointment of insolvency specialists BDO imminent. Apparently.

Now, that would be one gigantic embarasment for Duffest and Helpless.:greengrin

Roll on!:agree:

[CropleyWasGod]

Administrators admit that Miller has had talks with the football authorities regarding his takeover !. This from sportsound a few minutes ago, wonder if Doncaster is going to let them straight back in ?.

It's not up to him.

And, talks could be:-

"let us in"

"naw"

[CropleyWasGod]

Appointment of insolvency specialists BDO imminent. Apparently.

I used to work for them, in Guernsey. Played fitba against Matt Le Tissier's wee bro. I say "played", I really just admired him from afar.

[green glory]

Tweeted by Phil Mac:

@Pmacgiollabhain: Why have Insolvency firm BDO sent employees an urgent email asking if anyone has a conflict of interest with Rangers. Imminent appointment?

[lucky]

His proposals will never get of the ground. Surely the SPL/ SFA are not that weak

[Leithenhibby]

It's going to be so disappointing when this thread is over. I come home from work every night and know that although I don't have sky, I'm still guaranteed "Comedy Gold" .... Priceless Stuff :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Now, that would be one gigantic embarasment for Duffest and Helpless.:greengrin

Roll on!:agree:

Not sure that it is an embarrassment to them, TBH. Happens all the time..... admins are appointed, fail to save the business, admins move out, liquidators move in.

Won't be the first time it's happened to them, and won't be the last.

[blindsummit]

Miller's statement had me raging for a while, full of such arrogant, ignorant pash. Who they hell is he to hold a gun to the heads of the authorities and the other clubs? How can he completely ignore HMRC and even agent Whyte? What about the licencing issues?

Now I'm thinking he'd make the perfect Rankgers owner. Arrogant, dictatorial, imperialist, ignorant, dumb as a bag of spanners etc.

[CropleyWasGod]

It's going to be so disappointing when this thread is over. I come home from work every night and know that although I don't have sky, I'm still guaranteed "Comedy Gold" .... Priceless Stuff :greengrin

Said it before, LH.... this is just the support act for the main gig.

Now that we are all well-versed in "teams that go pop", just wait until it's "their" turn.

[Newry Hibs]

So .... best guesses and personal opinions ... what is likely to happen if / when liquidators are appointed? Is this just sounded one out in case they are needed?

[calmac12000]

Just when you think that even Huns must have a shred of decency and desist from engaging in puerile self-fulfilment, the campaign to make sure that the big hoose staise open plumbs new depths. What really sickens me is the disgraceful coverage of this affair by the Laptop Loyal and their non-print counterparts. Surely, some segment of the Fourth Estate has got to break cover and admit the Emperor has no clothes, nor has he had any for some considerable time. Although, I'll be the first to admit football isn't my raison d'etre: the conduct of the media, with some notable exceptions fails to inspire a positive view of civic society in contemporary Scotland I am not for one minute equating Glasgow Rangers and Scotland as a whole. However, if the media can't properly hold to account the nations supposedly premier sporting institution, then what price democracy!

[CropleyWasGod]

Just when you think that even Huns must have a shred of decency and desist from engaging in puerile self-fulfilment, the campaign to make sure that the big hoose staise open plumbs new depths. What really sickens me is the disgraceful coverage of this affair by the Laptop Loyal and their non-print counterparts. Surely, some segment of the Fourth Estate has got to break cover and admit the Emperor has no clothes, nor has he had any for some considerable time. Although, I'll be the first to admit football isn't my raison d'etre: the conduct of the media, with some notable exceptions fails to inspire a positive view of civic society in contemporary Scotland I am not for one minute equating Glasgow Rangers and Scotland as a whole. However, if the media can't properly hold to account the nations supposedly premier sporting institution, then what price democracy!

Why, what's happened now?

[CropleyWasGod]

So .... best guesses and personal opinions ... what is likely to happen if / when liquidators are appointed? Is this just sounded one out in case they are needed?

I think you may be right on the "sounding out". It's not really up to the admins to appoint a liquidator; that's up to the creditors. However, there's always a bit of "phoney war" going on beforehand.

[stokesmessiah]

I think you may be right on the "sounding out". It's not really up to the admins to appoint a liquidator; that's up to the creditors. However, there's always a bit of "phoney war" going on beforehand.

Out of interest CWG what will happen to you if/when the news that liquidators are called in and this sorry mess starts drawing to a close?

:cb

[CropleyWasGod]

Out of interest CWG what will happen to you if/when the news that liquidators are called in and this sorry mess starts drawing to a close?

:cb

1. I will be able to work and eat again.

2. I will be in training, and in a constant state of readiness for the next (maroon) chapter in "Scottish Football.... when the shecht hit the fans".

[greenginger]

1. I will be able to work and eat again.

2. I will be in training, and in a constant state of readiness for the next (maroon) chapter in "Scottish Football.... when the shecht hit the fans".


Any chance of Number 2. happening before May 19th. It would save untold stress on a lot of aging Hibbies, :greengrin

[Jim44]

They're beginning to crumble over on FF. There's usually a stubborn, united, 'wha's like us', we arra' people attitude but some of the posts would make a glass eye greet.

Were all hurting right now, but the worst thing is, there is nothing that any of us can do.
The future of our Club now lies in the hands of the Admin and the Bidders. Which is a scary and terrifying thought.
Although, if we do go NewCo, then I WANT to play in Div 3, I dont want to be anywhere near the SP-****ing-L!
I reckon a lot of grown men will be reduced to tears in the days ahead, and im one of them.

I share you pain dude. Desperate times, our club has been systematically destroyed from within and from without. The club is now on it's knees awaiting the final bullet that will put it out of it's misery. I could cry.

That my 3 children won't know what it means to love and support my Rangers, that hurts me immeasurably.
We are all in the same boat.
The Rangers we all love is dying on life support and the wrong people are deciding whether or not to turn off the life support machine.
I'm trying to keep calm and keep my emotions in check but even writing this I can feel a few tears coming on.
I feel sick and disgusted.
I hope Murray, Whyte and all the "yes men" rot in hell.
Really do think the end is near.

When the dust settles and we come out of this the other side, no matter what state were in were all going to have to look at this situation very closely.
Yeah, Whyte, Murray and D&P will bear the brunt of our anger and rightly so, however, we will also have to take a look at ourselves as a support, myself included.
We could have done more, much much more and we didnt. And that is my biggest regret out of all of this, I didnt do enough, I didnt do anything. I thought we were too big to have any great harm come to us, I thought someone would have saved us.
I was wrong.

How can we come back from liquidation fighting? This isn't a video game where you have infinite lives. Liquidation = Death of Rangers!


.......................... and that's just a few of the optimistic ones. :greengrin

[Eyrie]

So to catch up, the Huns support don't do walking away. Unless they are Brian Kennedy, Blue Knights or Bill Ng.

And these two posts just made my day :thumbsup:

Appointment of insolvency specialists BDO imminent. Apparently.

Tweeted by Phil Mac:

@Pmacgiollabhain: Why have Insolvency firm BDO sent employees an urgent email asking if anyone has a conflict of interest with Rangers. Imminent appointment?

[lapsedhibee]

They're beginning to crumble over on FF. There's usually a stubborn, united, 'wha's like us', we arra' people attitude but some of the posts would make a glass eye greet.

Were all hurting right now, but the worst thing is, there is nothing that any of us can do.
The future of our Club now lies in the hands of the Admin and the Bidders. Which is a scary and terrifying thought.
Although, if we do go NewCo, then I WANT to play in Div 3, I dont want to be anywhere near the SP-****ing-L!
I reckon a lot of grown men will be reduced to tears in the days ahead, and im one of them.

I share you pain dude. Desperate times, our club has been systematically destroyed from within and from without. The club is now on it's knees awaiting the final bullet that will put it out of it's misery. I could cry.

That my 3 children won't know what it means to love and support my Rangers, that hurts me immeasurably.
We are all in the same boat.
The Rangers we all love is dying on life support and the wrong people are deciding whether or not to turn off the life support machine.
I'm trying to keep calm and keep my emotions in check but even writing this I can feel a few tears coming on.
I feel sick and disgusted.
I hope Murray, Whyte and all the "yes men" rot in hell.
Really do think the end is near.

When the dust settles and we come out of this the other side, no matter what state were in were all going to have to look at this situation very closely.
Yeah, Whyte, Murray and D&P will bear the brunt of our anger and rightly so, however, we will also have to take a look at ourselves as a support, myself included.
We could have done more, much much more and we didnt. And that is my biggest regret out of all of this, I didnt do enough, I didnt do anything. I thought we were too big to have any great harm come to us, I thought someone would have saved us.
I was wrong.

How can we come back from liquidation fighting? This isn't a video game where you have infinite lives. Liquidation = Death of Rangers!


.......................... and that's just a few of the optimistic ones. :greengrin

Heartwarming, uplifting, life-enhancing post. ****in brilliant, every last word of it. :thumbsup:

[blindsummit]

They're beginning to crumble over on FF. There's usually a stubborn, united, 'wha's like us', we arra' people attitude but some of the posts would make a glass eye greet.

Were all hurting right now, but the worst thing is, there is nothing that any of us can do.
The future of our Club now lies in the hands of the Admin and the Bidders. Which is a scary and terrifying thought.
Although, if we do go NewCo, then I WANT to play in Div 3, I dont want to be anywhere near the SP-****ing-L!
I reckon a lot of grown men will be reduced to tears in the days ahead, and im one of them.

I share you pain dude. Desperate times, our club has been systematically destroyed from within and from without. The club is now on it's knees awaiting the final bullet that will put it out of it's misery. I could cry.

That my 3 children won't know what it means to love and support my Rangers, that hurts me immeasurably.
We are all in the same boat.
The Rangers we all love is dying on life support and the wrong people are deciding whether or not to turn off the life support machine.
I'm trying to keep calm and keep my emotions in check but even writing this I can feel a few tears coming on.
I feel sick and disgusted.
I hope Murray, Whyte and all the "yes men" rot in hell.
Really do think the end is near.

When the dust settles and we come out of this the other side, no matter what state were in were all going to have to look at this situation very closely.
Yeah, Whyte, Murray and D&P will bear the brunt of our anger and rightly so, however, we will also have to take a look at ourselves as a support, myself included.
We could have done more, much much more and we didnt. And that is my biggest regret out of all of this, I didnt do enough, I didnt do anything. I thought we were too big to have any great harm come to us, I thought someone would have saved us.
I was wrong.

How can we come back from liquidation fighting? This isn't a video game where you have infinite lives. Liquidation = Death of Rangers!


.......................... and that's just a few of the optimistic ones. :greengrin

I know some people would take a charitable view and have some sympathy, but after years of being shafted by the manky biogts, i feel nothing but schaedenfreude. I remember all the times walking down Easter Road having abuse hurled at me by their "fans". The world will be well rid of them.

[DaveF]

They're beginning to crumble over on FF. There's usually a stubborn, united, 'wha's like us', we arra' people attitude but some of the posts would make a glass eye greet.

Were all hurting right now, but the worst thing is, there is nothing that any of us can do.
The future of our Club now lies in the hands of the Admin and the Bidders. Which is a scary and terrifying thought.
Although, if we do go NewCo, then I WANT to play in Div 3, I dont want to be anywhere near the SP-****ing-L!
I reckon a lot of grown men will be reduced to tears in the days ahead, and im one of them.

I share you pain dude. Desperate times, our club has been systematically destroyed from within and from without. The club is now on it's knees awaiting the final bullet that will put it out of it's misery. I could cry.

That my 3 children won't know what it means to love and support my Rangers, that hurts me immeasurably.
We are all in the same boat.
The Rangers we all love is dying on life support and the wrong people are deciding whether or not to turn off the life support machine.
I'm trying to keep calm and keep my emotions in check but even writing this I can feel a few tears coming on.
I feel sick and disgusted.
I hope Murray, Whyte and all the "yes men" rot in hell.
Really do think the end is near.

When the dust settles and we come out of this the other side, no matter what state were in were all going to have to look at this situation very closely.
Yeah, Whyte, Murray and D&P will bear the brunt of our anger and rightly so, however, we will also have to take a look at ourselves as a support, myself included.
We could have done more, much much more and we didnt. And that is my biggest regret out of all of this, I didnt do enough, I didnt do anything. I thought we were too big to have any great harm come to us, I thought someone would have saved us.
I was wrong.

How can we come back from liquidation fighting? This isn't a video game where you have infinite lives. Liquidation = Death of Rangers!


.......................... and that's just a few of the optimistic ones. :greengrin

Got a nice warm glow reading that. If there are any huns looking in, then hurry up and liquidate ya bunch of ******s :greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

They're beginning to crumble over on FF. There's usually a stubborn, united, 'wha's like us', we arra' people attitude but some of the posts would make a glass eye greet.

Were all hurting right now, but the worst thing is, there is nothing that any of us can do.
The future of our Club now lies in the hands of the Admin and the Bidders. Which is a scary and terrifying thought.
Although, if we do go NewCo, then I WANT to play in Div 3, I dont want to be anywhere near the SP-****ing-L!
I reckon a lot of grown men will be reduced to tears in the days ahead, and im one of them.

I share you pain dude. Desperate times, our club has been systematically destroyed from within and from without. The club is now on it's knees awaiting the final bullet that will put it out of it's misery. I could cry.

That my 3 children won't know what it means to love and support my Rangers, that hurts me immeasurably.
We are all in the same boat.
The Rangers we all love is dying on life support and the wrong people are deciding whether or not to turn off the life support machine.
I'm trying to keep calm and keep my emotions in check but even writing this I can feel a few tears coming on.
I feel sick and disgusted.
I hope Murray, Whyte and all the "yes men" rot in hell.
Really do think the end is near.

When the dust settles and we come out of this the other side, no matter what state were in were all going to have to look at this situation very closely.
Yeah, Whyte, Murray and D&P will bear the brunt of our anger and rightly so, however, we will also have to take a look at ourselves as a support, myself included.
We could have done more, much much more and we didnt. And that is my biggest regret out of all of this, I didnt do enough, I didnt do anything. I thought we were too big to have any great harm come to us, I thought someone would have saved us.
I was wrong.

How can we come back from liquidation fighting? This isn't a video game where you have infinite lives. Liquidation = Death of Rangers!


.......................... and that's just a few of the optimistic ones. :greengrin



http://youtu.be/pDcKucuRJx0

[Jim44]

I know some people would take a charitable view and have some sympathy, but after years of being shafted by the manky biogts, i feel nothing but schaedenfreude. I remember all the times walking down Easter Road having abuse hurled at me by their "fans". The world will be well rid of them.

You know, when I started that post, a tiny bit of me said, 'c'mon they're flesh and blood like us, how would we feel? etc. Then common sense prevailed and I thought about their total dismissal of everyone bar themselves. I don't have a scrap of sympathy for a single one of them.

[joe breezy]

Great reading, bawbags the lot of them

[Kaiser1962]

Said it before, LH.... this is just the support act for the main gig.

Now that we are all well-versed in "teams that go pop", just wait until it's "their" turn.


Which is why it is our duty to pay attention to the Hun and ensure that no jiggery pokery goes on here that may set an unsavoury precedent for when the Yam piper needs paid.

[Kaiser1962]

They're beginning to crumble over on FF. There's usually a stubborn, united, 'wha's like us', we arra' people attitude but some of the posts would make a glass eye greet.

Were all hurting right now, but the worst thing is, there is nothing that any of us can do.


Thats the reality of football these days.

Football ownership is the preserve of an increasingly small percentage of very wealthy men and the fans, however vociferous they may be, have little impact when the money men come calling.

[stokesmessiah]

Anyone heard this ..http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17792335

Worrying stuff, hopefully just bleather from the administrators.

[PatHead]

It has just dawned on me we will never ever play Rangers again. Thinking of the bile and hatred which has been directed at me and my family over the years and all I can say is Good Riddance, Fu£k ye, ye dirty orange bassas.

[Leithenhibby]

Said it before, LH.... this is just the support act for the main gig.

Now that we are all well-versed in "teams that go pop", just wait until it's "their" turn.


Oh I feel all warm inside and shall sleep like a baby tonight knowing that we have a new chapter to look forward to, makes my disappointment subside ever so slightly ...... :wink:

[stokesmessiah]

Anyone heard this ..http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17792335

Worrying stuff, hopefully just bleather from the administrators.

Just finished listening to that whole interview at first i was slightly concerned as he seemed confident that an agreement will be met with the footballing authorities. After hearing it all one thing is obvious, Rangers are in a mess and i think the pressure is really being cranked up on the administrators there seems to be an awful lot of backtracking and policy changes.?

[snooky]

It has just dawned on me we will never ever play Rangers again. Thinking of the bile and hatred which has been directed at me and my family over the years and all I can say is Good Riddance, Fu£k ye, ye dirty orange bassas.

Oh the irony :wink: :greengrin

[PatHead]

Oh the irony :wink: :greengrin

Great isn't it

[Jim44]

Anyone heard this ..http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/scotland/17792335

Worrying stuff, hopefully just bleather from the administrators.

So if we can believe this guy, Bill Miller has been 'discussing the situation' with the SFA and the SPL. Doncaster and Regan must be bricking themselves just now in that they're well and truly ensconced between a stone and a hard place, knowing that their preferred outcome is to see Rangers welcomed back as unscathed as possible to the SPL but realising that this will cause 'civil war' in Scottish football.

[PatHead]

So if we can believe this guy, Bill Miller has been 'discussing the situation' with the SFA and the SPL. Doncaster and Regan must be bricking themselves just now in that they're well and truly ensconced between a stone and a hard place, knowing that their preferred outcome is to see Rangers welcomed back as unscathed as possible to the SPL but realising that this will cause 'civil war' in Scottish football.

Sure Warrington Hibs will put them right on Tuesday.

[Caversham Green]

Just finished listening to that whole interview at first i was slightly concerned as he seemed confident that an agreement will be met with the footballing authorities. After hearing it all one thing is obvious, Rangers are in a mess and i think the pressure is really being cranked up on the administrators there seems to be an awful lot of backtracking and policy changes.?

It sounds like the plan is that a Newhun takes Oldhun's place in the league, but Oldhun remains in administration rather than being liquidated. They would have to move money over to Oldhun to reduce the debts enough to achieve a CVA - possibly through renting Ibrox - then once a CVA has been achieved Oldhun and Newhun 'merge' and effectively become Oldhun again.

Problems that I can see are that it would be very expensive to continue in administration and a lot of Newhun's money would have to leak out to Oldhun, I would think all of the players' contracts would have to be negotiated and they may be free to walk away (if any actually do walking away), and the existing rules already state that a further 10 point penalty would be suffered if the club remains in administration while Wullie himself has said:


Originally posted by Willie Miller (no,not that one)
(or that one)
My offer is contingent upon the regulatory bodies agreeing that the club will begin play in the 2012/13 season in the SPL and that they will do so without any loss of points and with all historic titles intact.I will not acquire the club unless I receive written assurances from both regulatory bodies to this effect.



Either he or the SPL will have to give ground and if it's the latter I foresee carnage.

[SteveHFC]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4270176/Murrays-rescue-bid-as-Gers-face-liquidation-fears.html

[Jim44]

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4270176/Murrays-rescue-bid-as-Gers-face-liquidation-fears.html

They're willing to pay Ticketus millions of pounds over an agreed period of time but will also want to wipe the slate clean with HMRC by paying a fraction of their debt overnight.

[MrSmith]

“Paul Clark is saying they want an unconditional offer but how can anyone bid unconditionally when they don’t have Whyte’s shares? If the administrators tell the Knights his shares are there, the deposit will be there five minutes later.”


More bravado then!

[Leithenhibby]

They're willing to pay Ticketus millions of pounds over an agreed period of time but will also want to wipe the slate clean with HMRC by paying a fraction of their debt overnight.


The Sun article also states :rolleyes: Ticketus as the largest creditor, am I not right in saying that it's HMRC :confused:

[grunt]

These statements do not indicate to me that the authors have an in-depth understanding of the issues:

http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmnw/choosing_sides__why_its_the_blue_knights_for_range rs_740728/index.shtml

http://www.rangerssupporterstrust.co.uk/rstsite/latest-rst-news/450-an-analysis-of-the-bill-miller-bid-for-rfc (http://www.rangerssupporterstrust.co.uk/rstsite/latest-rst-news/450-an-analysis-of-the-bill-miller-bid-for-rfc)

[Ray_]

The Sun article also states :rolleyes: Ticketus as the largest creditor, am I not right in saying that it's HMRC :confused:

From my understanding, at the moment, no, after the big tax case is heard, most likely, by some distance.

[down-the-slope]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17789810

:partyhibb if that is the only bid on the table.....they are screwed...at least beeb got the view of someone who has credibility...

Professor David Hillier, vice dean of Strathclyde Business School, disputes Miller's claim that his offer would avoid liquidation.

[ancienthibby]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17789810

:partyhibb if that is the only bid on the table.....they are screwed...at least beeb got the view of someone who has credibility...

Professor David Hillier, vice dean of Strathclyde Business School, disputes Miller's claim that his offer would avoid liquidation.

May not be though - see post 5248:greengrin

[northgreen24]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17789810

:partyhibb if that is the only bid on the table.....they are screwed...at least beeb got the view of someone who has credibility...

Professor David Hillier, vice dean of Strathclyde Business School, disputes Miller's claim that his offer would avoid liquidation.


this is very interesting

"Miller added: "My offer is contingent upon the regulatory bodies agreeing that the club will begin play in the 2012/13 season in the SPL and that they will do so without any loss of points and with all historic titles intact."

so basically we can cheat for year but I dont want you little clubs stopping us next year (went going to win the league anyway). just glade it is an edinburgh scottish cup final as proves not everything revolves round glasgow..


come on the other 10 have some balls:flag:

[down-the-slope]

May not be though - see post 5248:greengrin


The Sun :faf: that reliable source...Hmmm...how can we sell a few more rags in the weege...oh aye sell hope...Sun understands...blah blah :greengrin

[camhibby1]

May not be though - see post 5248:greengrin


I am of the opinion that the 'powers that be' have become so defensive that they are now watching every move taking place over which they have no control - other club's POV's; club forums etc to guage external opinion. I suspect UEFA are watching it like hawks too. Which makes Warrington Hibs' call by Doncaster to come to Hampden an interesting one.

As well as bringing up the obvious, the superb work done on the survey which we all applaud, it would be good if WH brought up this question of the 'fit and proper' persons rule. Whilst Bill Miller's proposals are laughable, the fit and proper person's rule should be directed at the Blue Knights. About the only thing Miller can be said to be right about is that no-one with previous at RFC can possibly be involved in a CAV out of administration for the simple reason that corporate responsibility should rule out Paul Whyte having anything to do with a rescue. As I said in the only previous comment I've made on this mess, PW is as part of the problem as anyone and that includes Campbell Ogilvie. They were all in tow to SDM and turned a blind eye - by implication they failed as directors of the previous regime to prevent this and are therefore as guilty. The fit and proper persons rule comes into play even before the alleged criminality is proved or are the SFA and SPL beaks so in thrall to the OF that it doesn't matter. WH might like to talk about this on Tuesday. Mind you by Tuesday it might well be that liquidation is all that is left - if that's the case so be it. And I for one would welcome it.

A football club so immersed in its own disgraceful history has no place in 21st century Scotland and we are well rid. There are many shamed institutions which have died in the passing of time as society has moved on into more enlightened times - RFC is a shamed institution which deserves to die and stuff its arrogant misplaced belief that it has a right above anyone or anything else.

Warrington Hibs - give Tuesday all you've got -you have my support.

[joe breezy]

So there are no serious offers for Rangers and certainly none that are prepared to pay the debts and the tax due

[dangermouse]

Are they still going? I do remember one bleak cup defeat there 20 or so years ago. Was surprised it was an all seater stadium!

You have just stirred up some bad memories. To make it worse we had humped them 4 - 1 at ER the week before and on the journey home had to listen to Robbo scoring the winning goal against the tic at Tynie :boo hoo:

[dangermouse]

They're beginning to crumble over on FF. There's usually a stubborn, united, 'wha's like us', we arra' people attitude but some of the posts would make a glass eye greet.


When the dust settles and we come out of this the other side, no matter what state were in were all going to have to look at this situation very closely.
Yeah, Whyte, Murray and D&P will bear the brunt of our anger and rightly so, however, we will also have to take a look at ourselves as a support, myself included.
We could have done more, much much more and we didnt. And that is my biggest regret out of all of this, I didnt do enough, I didnt do anything. I thought we were too big to have any great harm come to us, I thought someone would have saved us.
I was wrong.


.......................... and that's just a few of the optimistic ones. :greengrin

I wonder how many of the :vladsheep: will be saying that when HMRC get their hooks into HMFC. At least we Hibees actually do something about our team before the :******:

[Gettin' Auld]

If Rangers F C in administration buy Cowdenbeath to re-start their existence in the SFL they should always be referred to by all other clubs as Cowdenbeath F C to mock them forever.

Also the idea that they could somehow transfer their history to a New-Co or a club they buy is bizarre.

If the liquidated assets of Rangers F C were sold off and say Ross County out bid the New - Co for Rangers good-will ( history ) would anyone seriously believe Ross County if they claimed to have won fifty league titles and countless cups ?

If der Hun is liquidated their history is liquidated as well, if they want to keep their history let them propose a 10 - 20 year plan to repay all their creditors in full including interest.

I've never seen the words 'Rangers' and 'Goodwill' used in the same sentence before. Surely that's an oxymoron? :wink:

[ancienthibby]

The Sun :faf: that reliable source...Hmmm...how can we sell a few more rags in the weege...oh aye sell hope...Sun understands...blah blah :greengrin

There does seem to be substance to the story.

I assume certain papers were briefed by Kennedy/Murray:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/blue-knights-given-48-hours-to-save-rangers.17374095

[CropleyWasGod]

There does seem to be substance to the story.

I assume certain papers were briefed by Kennedy/Murray:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/blue-knights-given-48-hours-to-save-rangers.17374095

Och, AH, you know by now how this game plays.

I said on here yesterday that the BK would be back in. The Sun et al are only doing what all respectable journalists do, and getting their exclusives from :hnet:

[greenginger]

Does anyone think Paul Murray's hands are dirty enough for him to fail the " fit and proper person " test ? :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

There does seem to be substance to the story.

I assume certain papers were briefed by Kennedy/Murray:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/blue-knights-given-48-hours-to-save-rangers.17374095

The most important quote in all of that:-

Mr Clark also revealed that the club was in danger of running out of cash soon. He said: "Without season ticket sales, the money would run out towards the end of May or early June. So from that point of view we really do need to proceed with one of these bids.

Again, he must have been answering a question put to him by someone reading Hibs.net. :cb

[PatHead]

The grovelling carries on...........

Ally McCoist admits Rangers "are in the wrong" as they face up to potential disciplinary action but the manager has urged the authorities to be "fair".
Rangers await the Scottish FA's verdict into alleged rule breaches.
And there may be further investigation into the club's conduct relating to how players were paid over the last decade.
"We are in no position to make demands to anybody, least of all the SFA," said McCoist following the 3-0 win against Hearts (http://www.hibs.net/sport/0/football/17710952) at Tynecastle.
"We are in the wrong so we have to go and abide by the decisions that are taken upon us.
"We're just hopeful that the powers that be are - I'm loathed to use the word sympathetic - but realistic of the situation.
"A lot of the problems that we're in aren't down to the club, the majority of problems that we're faced with at the moment are down to individual mistakes and individual errors within the club.
"And we can only hope that the SFA or the SPL are, not lenient as such, but are fair with us because we are in the wrong and we deserve to take whatever we get but we just hope that there's a bit of fairness about the whole thing."
"Hopefully we can push things forward," said McCoist.

"We need to get the ball rolling, Monday can come soon enough. The most important thing is we do get a suitable resolution. It has to be sooner rather than later.
"What an ideal situation for me was and always has been and always will be is the same for the majority of fans and that would be to come out of administration through a CVA."
Meanwhile, McCoist would like to offer a new contract to Andy Little, who netted in the 3-0 win at Hearts.
"Andy Little has had a heck of a tough time with injuries [and has] come back from serious career-threatening injuries," added the manager.
"He will always make something happen. He's chipped in with more than his fair share of goals already this season.
"I'm very, very hopeful that we can get him something offered.
"I don't think anyone can deny that we deserved the victory.
"I definitely thought we were worthy of the three points." Source BBC

We are really sorry .................but want to sign a player, couldnt make it up

[ancienthibby]

The most important quote in all of that:-

Mr Clark also revealed that the club was in danger of running out of cash soon. He said: "Without season ticket sales, the money would run out towards the end of May or early June. So from that point of view we really do need to proceed with one of these bids.

Again, he must have been answering a question put to him by someone reading Hibs.net. :cb

:na na:

[Spike Mandela]

McCoist wants the authorities to be 'fair'. This situation is unprecedented so nothing to balance fairness against. They should be made an example of.

A lot of the problems aren't the clubs fault but individuals within the clubs fault?:confused: what mealy mouthed rubbish from McCoist. Murray and Whyte were the owners and ARE the club wether he likes it or not.

Breathtakingly Pathetic stuff from the cheeky chappie.:cb

[Jack]

Does anyone think Paul Murray's hands are dirty enough for him to fail the " fit and proper person " test ? :wink:

I think if you read through this thread again :-D you'll find a link suggesting he is not a fit and proper person.

Seems to have been forgotten about while he heads up the fans favourite option.

[PatHead]

McCoist wants the authorities to be 'fair'. This situation is unprecedented so nothing to balance fairness against. They should be made an example of.

A lot of the problems aren't the clubs fault but individuals within the clubs fault?:confused: what mealy mouthed rubbish from McCoist. Murray and Whyte were the owners and ARE the club wether he likes it or not.

Breathtakingly Pathetic stuff from the cheeky chappie.:cb

Almost big boy did it and ran away.

[Kaiser1962]

The Sun article also states :rolleyes: Ticketus as the largest creditor, am I not right in saying that it's HMRC :confused:

As things stand, according to D+P, Ticketus are owed £26.7m (TBC) in the accounts and HMRC a more precise £14,372,042, which does not include either the small tax case or the big one, which will need to be addressed at some point.

I would surmise that without Ticketus, who have over 48% of the currently acknowledged debt, on board the CVA is a total non starter. HMRC, with almost 26% of the total, could still block a CVA but, with a number of the debts still to be confirmed, a "massaging" of the figures upward by around £2.1m would nullify HMRC's ability to legally stop the implementation of the CVA. At this time that is.

I am also unsure how D+P define "football related creditors" as I would assume this would include both Rapid and Hearts but the figure listed dosent even come close.

[Geo_1875]

McCoist mangles the English language and hopes that it will divert the authorities attention from the complete dunghill that is Glasgow Rangers and their complete disregard for the rule of law and the regulations of Scottish, British and European football. **** him and **** Glasgow Rangers.

[snooky]

McCoist wants the authorities to be 'fair'. This situation is unprecedented so nothing to balance fairness against. They should be made an example of.

A lot of the problems aren't the clubs fault but individuals within the clubs fault?:confused: what mealy mouthed rubbish from McCoist. Murray and Whyte were the owners and ARE the club wether he likes it or not.

Breathtakingly Pathetic stuff from the cheeky chappie.:cb

To be 'fair', Rangers have always been 'fair' with us - taking a 'fair' amount of our team along the M8 enticing them with everybody else's money.

[Jim44]

As things stand, according to D+P, Ticketus are owed £26.7m (TBC) in the accounts and HMRC a more precise £14,372,042, which does not include either the small tax case or the big one, which will need to be addressed at some point.

I would surmise that without Ticketus, who have over 48% of the currently acknowledged debt, on board the CVA is a total non starter. HMRC, with almost 26% of the total, could still block a CVA but, with a number of the debts still to be confirmed, a "massaging" of the figures upward by around £2.1m would nullify HMRC's ability to legally stop the implementation of the CVA. At this time that is.

I am also unsure how D+P define "football related creditors" as I would assume this would include both Rapid and Hearts but the figure listed dosent even come close.

If HMRC are anti-CVA, then I assume they are pro-liquidation. If it came to liquidation, how do they recoup the vast amounts due?

[ehf]

If HMRC are anti-CVA, then I assume they are pro-liquidation. If it came to liquidation, how do they recoup the vast amounts due?

They sell the assets on a "break-up" basis. Effectively that will be the real estate and the brand/goodwill. The real estate comprises Ibrox, which probably has redevelopment potential of circa 20 million and Murray Park about 10 million. The brand/goodwill is more intangible but is actually worth more than the real estate combined.

[jgl07]

If HMRC are anti-CVA, then I assume they are pro-liquidation. If it came to liquidation, how do they recoup the vast amounts due?

HMRC are probably more concerned wth sending out a message that they are not be messed with rather than maximizing their returns. The liquidation of Rangers would send shock waves through British Football.

[CropleyWasGod]

HMRC are probably more concerned wth sending out a message that they are not be messed with rather than maximizing their returns. The liquidation of Rangers would send shock waves through British Football.

:agree: HMRC wrote off, in their minds anyway, most of their debt a while ago. Even a solvent Rangers couldn't pay the sums being talked about.

As you say, it's about precedent. That said, the First Tier Tribunal doesn't have the status of Courts, in that legal precedent can't be established. The message can be, though.

[CropleyWasGod]

As things stand, according to D+P, Ticketus are owed £26.7m (TBC) in the accounts and HMRC a more precise £14,372,042, which does not include either the small tax case or the big one, which will need to be addressed at some point.

I would surmise that without Ticketus, who have over 48% of the currently acknowledged debt, on board the CVA is a total non starter. HMRC, with almost 26% of the total, could still block a CVA but, with a number of the debts still to be confirmed, a "massaging" of the figures upward by around £2.1m would nullify HMRC's ability to legally stop the implementation of the CVA. At this time that is.

I am also unsure how D+P define "football related creditors" as I would assume this would include both Rapid and Hearts but the figure listed dosent even come close.

The "football-related creditors", though, is an irrelevance in Scotland.

Or have I misunderstood your point?

[jdships]

HMRC are probably more concerned wth sending out a message that they are not be messed with rather than maximizing their returns. The liquidation of Rangers would send shock waves through British Football.


Speaking with a friend who is a senior member of HMRC in Scotland , while refusing point blank to discuss RFC which is understandable, he made the point that " .... cannot describe the level of embarressment , at HMRC , over the failure to get a verdict in the Harry Redknapp case and they certainly will not be wanting a repeat with RFC "
Take what you like out of that :greengrin

[tanfield]

Slightly off topic and a bit random but bumped into Paul Murray in WHSmith's at Newcastle train station after the match today.

[Eyrie]

As things stand, according to D+P, Ticketus are owed £26.7m (TBC) in the accounts and HMRC a more precise £14,372,042, which does not include either the small tax case or the big one, which will need to be addressed at some point.

I would surmise that without Ticketus, who have over 48% of the currently acknowledged debt, on board the CVA is a total non starter. HMRC, with almost 26% of the total, could still block a CVA but, with a number of the debts still to be confirmed, a "massaging" of the figures upward by around £2.1m would nullify HMRC's ability to legally stop the implementation of the CVA. At this time that is.

I am also unsure how D+P define "football related creditors" as I would assume this would include both Rapid and Hearts but the figure listed dosent even come close.

The small tax case has already been conceded by the Huns with a tax liability of £2.8m before interest and the only question mark is over the penalties being charged. So HMRC have a minimum £16.2m claim to be considered.

[Kaiser1962]

The small tax case has already been conceded by the Huns with a tax liability of £2.8m before interest and the only question mark is over the penalties being charged. So HMRC have a minimum £16.2m claim to be considered.

I thought that as well but in D+P's document released earlier it states that ;

14.28 The Small Tax Case was bought against the Company by HMRC in respect of outstanding amounts owed from the use of a discounted options tax scheme for payments made to Tore Andre Flo and Ronald De Boer between the tax years 2000/01 and 2002/03.
14.29 The total amount determined as due by HMRC in respect of this case is in the region of £4,000,000, after interest and penalty charges.
14.30 The Small Tax Case has not progressed as far as Tribunal and has been settled based upon advice received.

There is no figure in D+P's take on things against either the Small or Big tax cases. They suggest the figure is still TBC.

[CropleyWasGod]

I thought that as well but in D+P's document released earlier it states that ;

14.28 The Small Tax Case was bought against the Company by HMRC in respect of outstanding amounts owed from the use of a discounted options tax scheme for payments made to Tore Andre Flo and Ronald De Boer between the tax years 2000/01 and 2002/03.
14.29 The total amount determined as due by HMRC in respect of this case is in the region of £4,000,000, after interest and penalty charges.
14.30 The Small Tax Case has not progressed as far as Tribunal and has been settled based upon advice received.

There is no figure in D+P's take on things against either the Small or Big tax cases. They suggest the figure is still TBC.

That says to me that it has been settled.