Scottish Independence

[greenginger]

Everyone is aware that asking the Supreme Court to make a ruling was not a PR stunt, so I don't think your obvious misinformation is adding anything worthwhile to the discussion.


Of course it it was a P R stunt

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/05/independence-vote-may-be-unlawful-says-scotlands-lord-advocate

Sturgeon was told by her own Lord Advocate it would not be legal

[CropleyWasGod]

Of course it it was a P R stunt

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/05/independence-vote-may-be-unlawful-says-scotlands-lord-advocate

Sturgeon was told by her own Lord Advocate it would not be legal

'may not be'

[He's here!]

Sturgeon didn’t take it to the Supreme Court.


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Uh huh.

[Since90+2]

Sturgeon didn’t take it to the Supreme Court.


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She did. Do you seriously think the senior Lawyer in Scotland went to ask the Supreme Court in the UK if a referendum was legal without the backing of the Scottish Government?

The issue was raised by the Scottish Government and took on by the senior Lawmaker.

That's a ridiculous suggestion to say otherwise. It was pushed by the Scottish Government, 100%.

[Kato]

As for Sturgeon, she only took the Supreme Court route as a publicity stunt, knowing full well what the law is.

Put the Facebook lines down and walk away.

Your insights and assessments into people's personalities and motives are pretty naive.



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[archie]

Put the Facebook lines down and walk away.

Your insights and assessments into people's personalities and motives are pretty naive.



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What do you think happened?

[greenginger]

Put the Facebook lines down and walk away.

Your insights and assessments into people's personalities and motives are pretty naive.



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You can have your opinion, others have theirs.

My opinion it was a stunt, and an expensive stunt at that.

[degenerated]

You can have your opinion, others have theirs.

My opinion it was a stunt, and an expensive stunt at that.A mere fraction of the money the Scottish government have to spend on mitigating horrible policies from westminster like the bedroom tax and child benefit cap, amongst others.

I may have missed it but I don't see you being as vocal about that.

[Keith_M]

I'm not going to reply to any specific posters, as I'm not meaning to start an argument with anybody, but...


I've noticed a few comments made along the lines that the SNP have proved by their actions that Scotland is incapable of standing alone as an independent nation.

Putting aside for a moment the validity of these claims, or the level of seriousness of their failures (as it's been discussed ad-infinitum), I thought it important to point out that the plan is to have a democracy, where the people will vote for whichever party they wish.

Nobody has suggested for a minute that it will be a 'one party state' (other than a few of the more extreme 'No Thanks' personalities)

It may well be (or even extremely likely) that the SNP would be in power initially... but you WILL actually have a choice as to who will run the country. If the SNP don't float your boat after independence, then you can vote for somebody else.

[marinello59]

I'm not going to reply to any specific posters, as I'm not meaning to start an argument with anybody, but...


I've noticed a few comments made along the lines that the SNP have proved by their actions that Scotland is incapable of standing alone as an independent nation.

Putting aside for a moment the validity of these claims, or the level of seriousness of their failures (as it's been discussed ad-infinitum), I thought it important to point out that the plan is to have a democracy, where the people will vote for whichever party they wish.

Nobody has suggested for a minute that it will be a 'one party state' (other than a few of the more extreme 'No Thanks' personalities)

It may well be (or even extremely likely) that the SNP would be in power initially... but you WILL actually have a choice as to who will run the country. If the SNP don't float your boat after independence, then you can vote for somebody else.

Bit in bold. I think you are going to have to quote the posters, I’ve not seen anybody saying we are incapable of going it alone. Even Cameron said we were capable of going it alone.

[Keith_M]

Bit in bold. I think you are going to have to quote the posters, I’ve not seen anybody saying we are incapable of going it alone. Even Cameron said we were capable of going it alone.


There's one on this page, and I have seen others.

I'm fed up with all the name calling and in-fighting on here, so didn't specifically want to call anyone out.


Edit, sorry, previous page. (it apparently depends on your settings how many posts you see per page)

[James310]

I'm not going to reply to any specific posters, as I'm not meaning to start an argument with anybody, but...


I've noticed a few comments made along the lines that the SNP have proved by their actions that Scotland is incapable of standing alone as an independent nation.

Putting aside for a moment the validity of these claims, or the level of seriousness of their failures (as it's been discussed ad-infinitum), I thought it important to point out that the plan is to have a democracy, where the people will vote for whichever party they wish.

Nobody has suggested for a minute that it will be a 'one party state' (other than a few of the more extreme 'No Thanks' personalities)

It may well be (or even extremely likely) that the SNP would be in power initially... but you WILL actually have a choice as to who will run the country. If the SNP don't float your boat after independence, then you can vote for somebody else.

That argument has some merit but it's not a particular concern for some as well. Things like hard borders and trade, currency and mortgages and pensions and joining the EU and all that involves don't care who is in power, they are challenges that will need to be faced by no matter who is in power whether it's the SNP, Labour or even some new invention of the Tory's! I suspect it would be some kind of SNP/Labour coalition.

I don't think Scotland couldn't go it alone, could Scotland be an independent country? Or course it could, do I think it's a good thing and the current plans give me confidence it would be a success? No.

[Rumble de Thump]

Bit in bold. I think you are going to have to quote the posters, I’ve not seen anybody saying we are incapable of going it alone. Even Cameron said we were capable of going it alone.

Is this a reference to David Cameron? I haven't heard of him ever saying anything along those lines. I know he said Scotland would be better of remaining part of the EU but that's about it.

[marinello59]

Is this a reference to David Cameron? I haven't heard of him ever saying anything along those lines. I know he said Scotland would be better of remaining part of the EU but that's about it.

He definitely said at the time of the referundum that of course we were capable of going it alone. Obviously he thought we would be better off if we didn’t though. I ain’t defending him in any way, just repeating what he said.:greengrin

[greenginger]

I
A mere fraction of the money the Scottish government have to spend on mitigating horrible policies from westminster like the bedroom tax and child benefit cap, amongst others.

I may have missed it but I don't see you being as vocal about that.


And where does the money come from to mitigate these policies ?

Let me guess , the Barnett formula perhaps .

[Just Alf]

I


And where does the money come from to mitigate these policies ?

Let me guess , the Barnett formula perhaps .That feels like a deflection.... if they didn't have to mitigate certain Conservative government policies using the funds we get then it could be spent on other things.

[grunt]

I


And where does the money come from to mitigate these policies ?

Let me guess , the Barnett formula perhaps .So, what are you suggesting? That we give all our money to Westminster and get nothing back?

[J-C]

So, what are you suggesting? That we give all our money to Westminster and get nothing back?


We do right now but only get 2/3 back again, imagine how well off we'd be if we kept all the money we bring in.

[James310]

We do right now but only get 2/3 back again, imagine how well off we'd be if we kept all the money we bring in.

What's the figure we send to Westminster to only get 2/3 of it back?

[archie]

What's the figure we send to Westminster to only get 2/3 of it back?

I suspect it's the block grant to Holyrood, but not taking account of spending here by UKG, such as pensions.

[J-C]

What's the figure we send to Westminster to only get 2/3 of it back?


Record £41 billion per year for Scotland in budget - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-41-billion-per-year-for-scotland-in-budget))




How Much Money Does Scotland Generate Per Year? - Explained (tastingbritain.co.uk) (https://tastingbritain.co.uk/how-much-money-does-scotland-generate-per-year/)

[Kato]

What do you think happened?The process of holding a referendum on independence was started.

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[James310]

Record £41 billion per year for Scotland in budget - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-41-billion-per-year-for-scotland-in-budget))




How Much Money Does Scotland Generate Per Year? - Explained (tastingbritain.co.uk) (https://tastingbritain.co.uk/how-much-money-does-scotland-generate-per-year/)

What about reserved spending such as pensions?

[Ozyhibby]

What about reserved spending such as pensions?

Or money for Michelle Mone?


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[Kato]

Or money for Michelle Mone?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAnd Mr Mone.

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[James310]

Or money for Michelle Mone?


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I hope she goes to prison, but that's not really anything to do with the point.

Do you think Scotland sends X to Westminster and only gets 2/3 back?

I am sure we had this "debate" a while back and there is devolved and reserved spending. Reserved spending includes things like state pensions and I am sure we all agree they should continue to be paid.

Mike Russell made a claim a while back Scotland pays in more than it gets back, he made this while a Government Minister and he was lying.

https://theferret.scot/claim-scotland-pays-out-more-than-gets-back-false/

[He's here!]

:agree:

Not least the Supreme Court who acknowledged it was an uncertainty they had a responsibility to resolve quickly.

Arguably because they wanted to quickly confirm the preposterousness of the SG's argument...that they could legislate for a referendum because it would be of little consequence.

Almost as bewildering as the court correctly pointing out that Scotland is neither an oppressed nation or a colony being taken by Sturgeon as proof that we are.

[He's here!]

A mere fraction of the money the Scottish government have to spend on mitigating horrible policies from westminster like the bedroom tax and child benefit cap, amongst others.

I may have missed it but I don't see you being as vocal about that.

The £1.5 million a year civil servants at Holyrood are paid to work on independence plans may also seem like small beer, but at a time when the SG are pleading poverty in the face of escalating strike action such funds would appear to be channelled in the wrong direction - especially in light of the Supreme Court ruling.

[Ozyhibby]

The £1.5 million a year civil servants at Holyrood are paid to work on independence plans may also seem like small beer, but at a time when the SG are pleading poverty in the face of escalating strike action such funds would appear to be channelled in the wrong direction - especially in light of the Supreme Court ruling.

Money well spent. That’s why we keep re-electing them.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Arguably because they wanted to quickly confirm the preposterousness of the SG's argument...that they could legislate for a referendum because it would be of little consequence.

Almost as bewildering as the court correctly pointing out that Scotland is neither an oppressed nation or a colony being taken by Sturgeon as proof that we are.

You don’t half just make stuff up. :greengrin

If you can find a single, sourced quote from NS calling Scotland either “oppressed” or “a colony”, you win a coconut.

[JeMeSouviens]

The £1.5 million a year civil servants at Holyrood are paid to work on independence plans may also seem like small beer, but at a time when the SG are pleading poverty in the face of escalating strike action such funds would appear to be channelled in the wrong direction - especially in light of the Supreme Court ruling.

Supporters of the Union - “we can’t be independent, there’s no plan!”

Also supporters of the Union - “you can’t make a plan!”

[greenginger]

We do right now but only get 2/3 back again, imagine how well off we'd be if we kept all the money we bring in.

There is a whole lot of other expenditure necessary to run a country that the Scottish Government does not directly contribute to.

Pensions, military, foreign office , international aid etc.

There is still far more government spending in Scotland per head of population than in England.

[Jack]

There is still far more government spending in Scotland per head of population than in England.

People keep mentioning this as if its a bad thing and the Scots are getting this to the detriment of the English population.

Has the 'English government' ever said where they are spending the money instead?

This is a general question not specifically to you 😀

[archie]

People keep mentioning this as if its a bad thing and the Scots are getting this to the detriment of the English population.

Has the 'English government' ever said where they are spending the money instead?

This is a general question not specifically to you 😀

It's absolutely not a bad thing. It's a function of arrange of issues such as population density, rurality, demographics etc. As there isn't an English government, we have to look to UKG for info (as well as the Scottish Government). This might help https://www.deliveringforscotland.gov.uk/scotland-in-the-uk/public-spending/

[grunt]

It's absolutely not a bad thing. It's a function of arrange of issues such as population density, rurality, demographics etc. As there isn't an English government, we have to look to UKG for info (as well as the Scottish Government). This might help https://www.deliveringforscotland.gov.uk/scotland-in-the-uk/public-spending/
That's not what was asked. The question was if Scottish spend per head is higher than in England, where does the English spend go if not on the people? (I think that was the question).

[Stairway 2 7]

People keep mentioning this as if its a bad thing and the Scots are getting this to the detriment of the English population.

Has the 'English government' ever said where they are spending the money instead?

This is a general question not specifically to you 😀

The English aren't spending the money because they don't get it? We get more money per head than England due to barnett. We'd undoubtedly be worse off immediately after independence, but we'd have a better opportunity to grow imo

[archie]

That's not what was asked. The question was if Scottish spend per head is higher than in England, where does the English spend go if not on the people? (I think that was the question).

Not yet read https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04033/

[JeMeSouviens]

People keep mentioning this as if its a bad thing and the Scots are getting this to the detriment of the English population.

Has the 'English government' ever said where they are spending the money instead?

This is a general question not specifically to you 😀

We get more per-capita spending than England & Wales but less than NI. The reason for the discrepancy is partly historical, partly political.


Back in the 70s when Scotland and Wales were supposed to be getting assemblies, it was decided to fix the budgets for devolved spending in the non-English bits of the UK. This was done simply in proportion to the population (by Joel Barnett who was a treasury minister, hence the name). Since then, the English population has risen faster than ours so the proportions are out of whack. That's the historical part.

The political part is that English and Welsh politicians will from time to time complain about the unfairness, but when support for Scottish indy goes up, their complaints are muted. Basically, they're too scared to reduce Scotland's disproportionate funding because then they can't bang on endlessly about Scotland's notional "deficit".

[JeMeSouviens]

It's absolutely not a bad thing. It's a function of arrange of issues such as population density, rurality, demographics etc. As there isn't an English government, we have to look to UKG for info (as well as the Scottish Government). This might help https://www.deliveringforscotland.gov.uk/scotland-in-the-uk/public-spending/

This is totally wrong, as I've explained to you before, but ho hum. Those things might be used as reasons not to change it, but they're not reasons for the difference in the first place.

And it's a bad thing if you're English or Welsh.

[Santa Cruz]

Googled Barnett formula. As I began typing the first suggestion to a link was "Barnett Formula for dummies". Even google's getting a bit nippy now, I was only checking...:greengrin

Brief explanation here.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/the-barnett-formula-a-quick-guide/

[JeMeSouviens]

Googled Barnett formula. As I began typing the first suggestion to a link was "Barnett Formula for dummies". Even google's getting a bit nippy now, I was only checking...:greengrin

Brief explanation here.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/the-barnett-formula-a-quick-guide/

Good idea for an AI project - an abusive search engine. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-deputy-westminster-leader-mhairi-black-pushes-rishi-sunak-to-give-answer-on-democratic-route-to-indyref2-3948155


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[greenginger]

That's not what was asked. The question was if Scottish spend per head is higher than in England, where does the English spend go if not on the people? (I think that was the question).

Where does the English spend go ?

The extra spend does not go anywhere because it does not exist.

The extra spend exists in Scotland because of the Barnett formula that passes on an extra 10/11 % of finance per head of population in Scotland than is paid to England.

Hence Scotland is able to make more generous social security payments, free prescriptions etc compared to England.

its pretty obvious a lot of these advantages would disappear after independence.

[grunt]

its pretty obvious a lot of these advantages would disappear after independence.
Obvious to who? It's not obvious to me.

[greenginger]

Obvious to who? It's not obvious to me.

OK where would the funds come from to pay those extras we enjoy just now.

[grunt]

OK where would the funds come from to pay those extras we enjoy just now.
Why are you talking Scotland down? Don't you have faith that we can be successful as an independent country?

[degenerated]

Where does the English spend go ?

The extra spend does not go anywhere because it does not exist.

The extra spend exists in Scotland because of the Barnett formula that passes on an extra 10/11 % of finance per head of population in Scotland than is paid to England.

Hence Scotland is able to make more generous social security payments, free prescriptions etc compared to England.

its pretty obvious a lot of these advantages would disappear after independence.To England as an average, quite an important bit that.

Public spending in London was higher per capita than in Scotland in the last UK government breakdown of those figures.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn04033/



26328

[Skol]

Why are you talking Scotland down? Don't you have faith that we can be successful as an independent country?

That’s it in a nutshell. It requires good faith until we get a clear statement from sturgeon on just what the finances would be if we became independent.

[JeMeSouviens]

Where does the English spend go ?

The extra spend does not go anywhere because it does not exist.

The extra spend exists in Scotland because of the Barnett formula that passes on an extra 10/11 % of finance per head of population in Scotland than is paid to England.

Hence Scotland is able to make more generous social security payments, free prescriptions etc compared to England.

its pretty obvious a lot of these advantages would disappear after independence.

It's also pretty obvious the funding disparity will disappear quicker than you can say "Barnett reform" if the "threat" of indy recedes. Planning an unsustainable fiscal position on the basis of someone else's largesse doesn't seem like a great move to me.

[degenerated]

That’s it in a nutshell. It requires good faith until we get a clear statement from sturgeon on just what the finances would be if we became independent.Can we get a clear statement and accurate projection on what finance in the UK will be like to compare it against?

What will the UK's defecit and national debt be short to medium term?

[Ozyhibby]

Can we get a clear statement and accurate projection on what finance in the UK will be like to compare it against?

What will the UK's defecit and national debt be short to medium term?

Common ploy for the No campaign. Ask Scotland to produce figures that the UK doesn’t even produce.


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[James310]

Common ploy for the No campaign. Ask Scotland to produce figures that the UK doesn’t even produce.


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Doesn't the OBR produce the figures for the UK?

https://obr.uk/


There is a 68 page document on the homepage called Economic and Fiscal outlook.

[Ozyhibby]

Doesn't the OBR produce the figures for the UK?

https://obr.uk/


There is a 68 page document on the homepage called Economic and Fiscal outlook.

So we should set up similar in Scotland just now?


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[greenginger]

The
Why are you talking Scotland down? Don't you have faith that we can be successful as an independent country?


Just being realistic.

I think you have got to take on board the downside consequences of leaving the UK.

Back in 2014 virtually every financial company based in Scotland had put in place procedures to move their head offices to England should Scotland become independent.

Sure these companies would still have a presence in Scotland but the top jobs, the decision making and the tax returns would all be made in England.

Before Scotland could begin to become successful there will be a few enormous holes in the countries economy that will require fixing.

Its not talking Scotland down , it’s just not sticking your head in the sand and claiming everything will be great.

[James310]

So we should set up similar in Scotland just now?


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That would be up to the Scottish Government to decide.

[James310]

Why are you talking Scotland down? Don't you have faith that we can be successful as an independent country?

Maybe I am old school but I don't tend to believe in politicans whose judgement is based purely on faith rather than facts.

[He's here!]

You don’t half just make stuff up. :greengrin

If you can find a single, sourced quote from NS calling Scotland either “oppressed” or “a colony”, you win a coconut.

Come on, what are we supposed to take from her rhetoric following the ruling? For example:

"The notion of the UK as a voluntary partnership of nations, if it ever was a reality, is no longer a reality."

Such an allegation might have carried some weight had David Cameron not agreed a section 30 order and Scotland hadn't enjoyed/endured an independence referendum just eight years ago.

Mike Russell, incidentally, didn't feel the need to shy away from the colonial guff:

Michael Russell: Colonial echoes in Westminster's denial of indyref2 | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/23167424.michael-russell-colonial-echoes-westminsters-denial-indyref2/)

[grunt]

I think you have got to take on board the downside consequences of leaving the UK.I'm taking on board the clearly evident downsides of remaining in the UK tied to a Westminster Govt that doesn't have my best interests at heart.


Back in 2014 virtually every financial company based in Scotland had put in place procedures to move their head offices to England should Scotland become independent.I spent the last few years of my working life helping UK companies set up in business in the EU. We need to stop that exodus by rejoining the single market. Independence will achieve that.


Its not talking Scotland down , it’s just not sticking your head in the sand and claiming everything will be great.I happen to think the opposite, and those who want to stay in the union are sticking their heads in the sand and saying "it can't get any worse" it will unless we become independent.

[JeMeSouviens]

Come on, what are we supposed to take from her rhetoric following the ruling? For example:

"The notion of the UK as a voluntary partnership of nations, if it ever was a reality, is no longer a reality."

Such an allegation might have carried some weight had David Cameron not agreed a section 30 order and Scotland hadn't enjoyed/endured an independence referendum just eight years ago.

No coconut for you then. Quelle surprise. :rolleyes:

[grunt]

Maybe I am old school but I don't tend to believe in politicans whose judgement is based purely on faith rather than facts.
Look at the Tory party for the last 6 years then.

[James310]

Look at the Tory party for the last 6 years then.

Exactly, what a mess. Don't give in to just having faith in something is the lesson.

[cabbageandribs1875]

can we not just accept that we're too wee, we don't have the resources :boo hoo:all those countries that gained independence from the mighty british empire must be mad not bursting a gut to get back



eh

[greenginger]

I'm taking on board the clearly evident downsides of remaining in the UK tied to a Westminster Govt that doesn't have my best interests at heart.

I spent the last few years of my working life helping UK companies set up in business in the EU. We need to stop that exodus by rejoining the single market. Independence will achieve that.

I happen to think the opposite, and those who want to stay in the union are sticking their heads in the sand and saying "it can't get any worse" it will unless we become independent.

Independence and suddenly we’re back in the single market , really ! How long will it take until Scotland’s economy aligns wit EU rules ?

And then we will have a hard border with England our main trading partner.

As for sticking heads in sand, there is a lot more unknowns with independence than remaining in UK

[Skol]

Can we get a clear statement and accurate projection on what finance in the UK will be like to compare it against?

What will the UK's defecit and national debt be short to medium term?

When truss and kwarteng didn’t do that we saw what happens.

It really shouldn’t be too hard to say here is what our budget will be post independence and here is how we plan to spend it. And here is how it compares to the current.

[JeMeSouviens]

Independence and suddenly we’re back in the single market , really ! How long will it take until Scotland’s economy aligns wit EU rules ?

And then we will have a hard border with England our main trading partner.

As for sticking heads in sand, there is a lot more unknowns with independence than remaining in UK

Full membership of the EU would take some time, but there is nothing to stop an iScotland joining the EEA tomorrow. Well, other than it's current non-existence.

[James310]

can we not just accept that we're too wee, we don't have the resources :boo hoo:all those countries that gained independence from the mighty british empire must be mad not bursting a gut to get back



eh

This is quite a lazy arguement, again very few are saying Scotland is too wee or too poor. It's a John Swinney trope that is only ever used by Yes voters.

But how many countries shared a border with the UK, a currency with the UK, had shared services such as HMRC etc? I can only think of Ireland 100 years ago that comes anywhere close, any other recent examples you have?

[He's here!]

Why are you talking Scotland down? Don't you have faith that we can be successful as an independent country?

While the SNP's white paper back in 2014 was a pile of dishonest, fanciful nonsense, I never really bought into the argument that Scotland couldn't ultimately do OK as an independent country and it had nothing to do with me voting no.

I'm Scottish but British too and it actually surprised me just how much that extra layer of indentity meant to me when the prospect of losing it became a possibility. I never bought into the yes-supporting portrayal of the UK as some sort of heartless, profiteering unreformable country. I think that by and large we are a pretty liberal, ambitious, multi-racial and modern nation and that the aspects of it (historic, cultural, sporting etc) which belong a little bit more to each constituent part are nevertheless shared by us all and indeed complement each other. We're greater than the sum of those constituent parts IMHO and I like the fact that while Scotland is different to England we are not separate. Bottom line, for me it's got nothing to with policy, it's about who I am.

I don't expect you to agree with that, but I do think that such sentiments/nuances have been utterly lost amid the belligerent anti-Tory/Westminster rhetoric.

[He's here!]

No coconut for you then. Quelle surprise. :rolleyes:

You don't see the inherent message in her rhetoric? The military connotations of 'launching and mobilising' a campaign 'in defence of Scottish democracy?' I guess there are plenty who will lap up that sort of Scotland in shackles stuff. As I mentioned earlier, Mike Russell was happy to go all out on the comparisons with colonial India.

[Ozyhibby]

The


Just being realistic.

I think you have got to take on board the downside consequences of leaving the UK.

Back in 2014 virtually every financial company based in Scotland had put in place procedures to move their head offices to England should Scotland become independent.

Sure these companies would still have a presence in Scotland but the top jobs, the decision making and the tax returns would all be made in England.

Before Scotland could begin to become successful there will be a few enormous holes in the countries economy that will require fixing.

Its not talking Scotland down , it’s just not sticking your head in the sand and claiming everything will be great.

Since then, they’ve mostly moved to England anyway.


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[JeMeSouviens]

You don't see the inherent message in her rhetoric? The military connotations of 'launching and mobilising' a campaign 'in defence of Scottish democracy?' I guess there are plenty who will lap up that sort of Scotland in shackles stuff. As I mentioned earlier, Mike Russell was happy to go all out on the comparisons with colonial India.

What, the one you imagined and made up quotes for? Emmm, no.

[greenginger]

Since then, they’ve mostly moved to England anyway.


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Don’t think so.

RBS, Aberdeen Asset , Scottish Widows , Tesco Bank, Sainsbury Bank and many many more are Headquartered in Scotland and their corporate taxation is shown as Scottish Government income on any income analysis of an independent Scotland.

I doubt they would remain should independence happen.

[Skol]

Common ploy for the No campaign. Ask Scotland to produce figures that the UK doesn’t even produce.


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Not in my mind. This is key information for me to be able to fully consider a yes vote. To vote yes without any idea on this is just a vote based on emotion and we know that case is made already.

[JeMeSouviens]

Don’t think so.

RBS, Aberdeen Asset , Scottish Widows , Tesco Bank, Sainsbury Bank and many many more are Headquartered in Scotland and their corporate taxation is shown as Scottish Government income on any income analysis of an independent Scotland.

I doubt they would remain should independence happen.

If they make money via activity in Scotland, they'd pay corporation tax in Scotland, irrespective of where they're headquartered.

[JeMeSouviens]

Not in my mind. This is key information for me to be able to fully consider a yes vote. To vote yes without any idea on this is just a vote based on emotion and we know that case is made already.

Lolz. The Labour man who admits to voting tory as an anti-SNP tactical vote is going to "fully consider a yes vote". :faf:

There are people open to persuasion. Somehow don't think you're one of them. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.theindigenousfoundation.org/articles/indigenous-sovereignty


Native Canadian indigenous people are a sovereign nation!!!

[Skol]

Lolz. The Labour man who admits to voting tory as an anti-SNP tactical vote is going to "fully consider a yes vote". :faf:

There are people open to persuasion. Somehow don't think you're one of them. :wink:

I didn’t just mean me. It should be for anyone before they consider a yes vote.

I am with the yes side in my distaste for the way the uk is governed right now and if there was a positive case being put forward for independence of course I would look at it.

[Skol]

If they make money via activity in Scotland, they'd pay corporation tax in Scotland, irrespective of where they're headquartered.

There is maybe something interesting that should be drawn out for these and similar firms. How much tax would they pay in Scotland both if they stayed with current HQ and if they moved that to England.

I work for one of the aforementioned firms and whilst most of the staff are in Scotland, most of the customers and therefore income is not.

I guess what would be worse would be if the hq and jobs moved. That is less likely, certainly immediately after independence, but post independence could be something that these firms consider strategically.

[He's here!]

What, the one you imagined and made up quotes for? Emmm, no.

Where did I make up a quote?

[JeMeSouviens]

There is maybe something interesting that should be drawn out for these and similar firms. How much tax would they pay in Scotland both if they stayed with current HQ and if they moved that to England.

I work for one of the aforementioned firms and whilst most of the staff are in Scotland, most of the customers and therefore income is not.

I guess what would be worse would be if the hq and jobs moved. That is less likely, certainly immediately after independence, but post independence could be something that these firms consider strategically.

https://www.gov.uk/corporation-tax


Profits you pay Corporation Tax on
Taxable profits for Corporation Tax include the money your company or association makes from:

doing business (‘trading profits’)
investments
selling assets for more than they cost (‘chargeable gains’)
If your company is based in the UK, it pays Corporation Tax on all its profits from the UK and abroad.

If your company isn’t based in the UK but has an office or branch here, it only pays Corporation Tax on profits from its UK activities.

If iScotland's version of HMRC determined that the activity of you and your colleagues in Scotland was generating profit then they'd be sending you a tax bill.

[JeMeSouviens]

Where did I make up a quote?

Well you didn't put it in quotation marks but the only way you could think NS conveyed the meaning that Scotland is oppressed or is a colony would be if you didn't know what those words mean.

[Skol]

https://www.gov.uk/corporation-tax



If iScotland's version of HMRC determined that the activity of you and your colleagues in Scotland was generating profit then they'd be sending you a tax bill.

It does start to get very complicated when workforce and customers are on both sides of the border. You could have demands from HMRC and it’s scottish equivalent. If you also find there are different taxation levels that could lead to firms deciding which side of the border is most advantageous for them and shareholders.

[Jack]

It does start to get very complicated when workforce and customers are on both sides of the border. You could have demands from HMRC and it’s scottish equivalent. If you also find there are different taxation levels that could lead to firms deciding which side of the border is most advantageous for them and shareholders.

I suspect these decisions are already being made by countries around the world and by 10s of thousands, maybe millions, of people already. The nearest example being Ireland.

A bit awkward but unlikely to be very complicated.

[ronaldo7]

Not in my mind. This is key information for me to be able to fully consider a yes vote. To vote yes without any idea on this is just a vote based on emotion and we know that case is made already.

When you say, this is key information "for me" to be able to fully consider a yes vote.

This is a wind up isn't it?

You've done more flip flops than Dougie Ross, and Keir Starmer put together. 😂😂😂

[grunt]

RBS, Aberdeen Asset , Scottish Widows , Tesco Bank, Sainsbury Bank and many many more are Headquartered in Scotland and their corporate taxation is shown as Scottish Government income on any income analysis of an independent Scotland.

I doubt they would remain should independence happen.

RBS is no more, just a trading name for part of NatWest, based in London

Aberdeen Asset no more. Became part of Standard Life which itself became owned by Phoenix Group, based in London.

Scottish Widows investments became part of Aberdeen Asset - see above.

Tesco bank wholly owned by Tesco Group, based in Cheshunt

Sainsburys Bank wholly owned by Sainsbury Group, based in London.

[bigwheel]

RBS is no more, just a trading name for part of NatWest, based in London

Aberdeen Asset no more. Became part of Standard Life which itself became owned by Phoenix Group, based in London.

Scottish Widows investments became part of Aberdeen Asset - see above.

Tesco bank wholly owned by Tesco Group, based in Cheshunt

Sainsburys Bank wholly owned by Sainsbury Group, based in London.

Aberdeen Asset remains separate as part of Abrdn….the rebranded (and separate ) investment arm of what was standard life. Not part of Phoenix


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[Skol]

When you say, this is key information "for me" to be able to fully consider a yes vote.

This is a wind up isn't it?

You've done more flip flops than Dougie Ross, and Keir Starmer put together. 😂😂😂

What have I flip flopped on?

[Skol]

RBS is no more, just a trading name for part of NatWest, based in London

Aberdeen Asset no more. Became part of Standard Life which itself became owned by Phoenix Group, based in London.

Scottish Widows investments became part of Aberdeen Asset - see above.

Tesco bank wholly owned by Tesco Group, based in Cheshunt

Sainsburys Bank wholly owned by Sainsbury Group, based in London.

And Scottish widows is part of Lloyds now iirc

[CropleyWasGod]

It does start to get very complicated when workforce and customers are on both sides of the border. You could have demands from HMRC and it’s scottish equivalent. If you also find there are different taxation levels that could lead to firms deciding which side of the border is most advantageous for them and shareholders.

It's not all that complicated.

A company is resident in the UK if it is incorporated in the UK, or its management and control is in the UK. The location of its customers is largely irrelevant, as is its staff.

If IS were to follow that model, and there's no reason why it wouldn't:-

Scotland has its own company registration set-up, so that's the first test. Those companies which have their operational control here, would also be resident in Scotland for tax purposes.

This, of course, was established during the debates in 2014 :)

[Skol]

It's not all that complicated.

A company is resident in the UK if it is incorporated in the UK, or its management and control is in the UK. The location of its customers is largely irrelevant, as is its staff.

If IS were to follow that model, and there's no reason why it wouldn't:-

Scotland has its own company registration set-up, so that's the first test. Those companies which have their operational control here, would also be resident in Scotland for tax purposes.

This, of course, was established during the debates in 2014 :)

Thanks. So what about sainsburys as an example. I assume registered in England but operate and have staff here. Do they pay all taxes to the uk and none to Scotland?

[Keith_M]

After Brexit, a large number of companies re-registered their headquarters in various EU countries. I'm not just talking about small companies either.

JP Morgan actually considered Dublin but eventually moved their 'official' trading HQ to Brussels, then Paris (though the London office in Canary Warf is still noted on their website as their HQ). The Paris office initially had around 200 employees, but is growing rapidly

If Scotland were to become an independent country, initially within the EEA (but with the end game of being in the EU), there's a strong possibility that similar companies, particularly in Finance, could relocate their HQ to Glasgow or Edinburgh, where they already have a considerable presence.

[ronaldo7]

What have I flip flopped on?

Telling folk that you're thinking about voting yes, but then being worried about an opinion poll showing a lead for yes is clearly giving mixed messages.

Just own your unionism.

[CropleyWasGod]

Thanks. So what about sainsburys as an example. I assume registered in England but operate and have staff here. Do they pay all taxes to the uk and none to Scotland?

Their Scottish staff taxes would be paid in Scotland, as that is where their staff are resident.

As far as the employer is concerned, it's likely that they would set up a Scottish company. Its Corporation Tax would be due in Scotland.

[Skol]

Telling folk that you're thinking about voting yes, but then being worried about an opinion poll showing a lead for yes is clearly giving mixed messages.

Just own your unionism.

When did I say I was considering voting yes? I said show me the evidence and I will look at it.

[James310]

Their Scottish staff taxes would be paid in Scotland, as that is where their staff are resident.

As far as the employer is concerned, it's likely that they would set up a Scottish company. Its Corporation Tax would be due in Scotland.

Why would it be likely they would set up a Scottish company? If corporation tax is higher in Scotland what's the incentive to do so? Any other benefits?

Doesn't Amazon follow a model of setting up the corporation in Ireland so they pay no or very little UK tax?

[Skol]

Their Scottish staff taxes would be paid in Scotland, as that is where their staff are resident.

As far as the employer is concerned, it's likely that they would set up a Scottish company. Its Corporation Tax would be due in Scotland.

Ok, and so a company currently HQdin Scotland could do likewise the other way. All theoretical of course, but each organisation will consider options and choose whichever works best for them. It’s down to Scotland to ensure it’s more attractive to pay tax here.

[CropleyWasGod]

Why would it be likely they would set up a Scottish company? If corporation tax is higher in Scotland what's the incentive to do so? Any other benefits?

Doesn't Amazon follow a model of setting up the corporation in Ireland so they pay no or very little UK tax?

It would make logistical and administrative sense to have a separate Scottish company, to avoid the problems of having staff in 2 separate Income Tax jurisdictions.

[CropleyWasGod]

Ok, and so a company currently HQdin Scotland could do likewise the other way. All theoretical of course, but each organisation will consider options and choose whichever works best for them. It’s down to Scotland to ensure it’s more attractive to pay tax here.

Agreed on both :)

[archie]

This is totally wrong, as I've explained to you before, but ho hum. Those things might be used as reasons not to change it, but they're not reasons for the difference in the first place.

And it's a bad thing if you're English or Welsh.

How can it be totally wrong if UKG spending on, for example, pensions or benefits I'd determined by the number of people in Scotland eligible to receive pensions or benefits?

[Moulin Yarns]

Another poll due out tomorrow showing another majority for independence.

#justsaying

[WeeRussell]

Another poll due out tomorrow showing another majority for independence.

#justsaying

It’s coming home..

[Ozyhibby]

Another poll due out tomorrow showing another majority for independence.

#justsaying

54% yes


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[Glory Lurker]

54% yes


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Sliding down already :-)

[Skol]

Sliding down already :-)

Positive news :-)

Lol. Where have results of this been published?

[Moulin Yarns]

Positive news :-)

Lol. Where have results of this been published?

So far I think that it is only in the national.

[Skol]

So far I think that it is only in the national.

Unsurprisingly not one of my go to places. And I think you need to pay now to read their stuff.

[Skol]

Yeah, can only read the first couple of lines and they tell the reader nothing. Some interesting comments though.

[greenginger]

Another poll due out tomorrow showing another majority for independence.

#justsaying


There’s been about 200 polls with a minority for independence and along comes 2 polls with a majority and its a done deal.

[degenerated]

Positive news :-)

Lol. Where have results of this been published?Not the BBC I'll bet

[Kato]

There’s been about 200 polls with a minority for independence and along comes 2 polls with a majority and its a done deal... said nobody.

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[degenerated]

There’s been about 200 polls with a minority for independence and along comes 2 polls with a majority and its a done deal.It's almost like the best way to get a definitive answer on this would be to actually ask the country the question.

[He's here!]

Well you didn't put it in quotation marks but the only way you could think NS conveyed the meaning that Scotland is oppressed or is a colony would be if you didn't know what those words mean.

We'll need to disagree on that. I thought it was obvious that her response, while feigning to 'respect' the court ruling, was carefully pre-scripted to imply just such an interpretation, with a view to fuelling the 'democracy denial' narrative among those agitating for a referendum. But then the 'Scotland in shackles' approach is the 'Plan C' direction of travel now for the independence campaign (which takes no account of the 55% of 'democracy deniers' last time round) so I can fully understand why she chose to respond that way.

On the subject of pre-scripting, anyone fancy a job as Sturgeon's new speechwriter?

First Minister's Speechwriter - Civil Service Jobs - GOV.UK (https://www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk/csr/jobs.cgi?jcode=1827833)

[Ozyhibby]

We'll need to disagree on that. I thought it was obvious that her response, while feigning to 'respect' the court ruling, was carefully pre-scripted to imply just such an interpretation, with a view to fuelling the 'democracy denial' narrative among those agitating for a referendum. But then the 'Scotland in shackles' approach is the 'Plan C' direction of travel now for the independence campaign (which takes no account of the 55% of 'democracy deniers' last time round) so I can fully understand why she chose to respond that way.

On the subject of pre-scripting, anyone fancy a job as Sturgeon's new speechwriter?

First Minister's Speechwriter - Civil Service Jobs - GOV.UK (https://www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk/csr/jobs.cgi?jcode=1827833)

People see what they want to see I guess.


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[StevieC]

There’s been about 200 polls with a minority for independence and along comes 2 polls with a majority and its a done deal.

You’re only as good as your last poll .. or something like that 😉

[Skol]

You’re only as good as your last poll .. or something like that 😉

Great, so the last official one was 55/45. Democracy has spoken. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

There’s been about 200 polls with a minority for independence and along comes 2 polls with a majority and its a done deal.

3


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[Mibbes Aye]

3


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Is that why they call them straw polls?

Because you’re clutching at them? 😀

[Skol]

Nowhere other than the national seems to be reporting this poll yet.

[Moulin Yarns]

Nowhere other than the national seems to be reporting this poll yet.

Well, it took the scotsman 3 days before it reported the ipsos poll, so it might be Wednesday before you read it elsewhere.

[He's here!]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23183368.interview-flynn-hints-doubts-de-facto-independence-vote/

Rethink on Sturgeon's plan C?

[weecounty hibby]

Brilliant. Now they've moved on from an unnamed source to folk hinting about things. Genius

[Hibrandenburg]

Brilliant. Now they've moved on from an unnamed source to folk hinting about things. Genius

After actually wasting 2 minutes to read that I'm struggling to see that he actually hinted anything of the sort.

[He's here!]

Brilliant. Now they've moved on from an unnamed source to folk hinting about things. Genius

You're a quick reader :wink:

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if they're reassessing the 'de-facto' referendum approach. The next general election could be as far away as January 2025 and even if they persist with such a strategy over the next two years the chances of it being accorded any validity are next to zero. If it's the case that Flynn is one of the younger generation of independence supporters who has become frustrated by the slow progress under Sturgeon, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if there's agitation for something sooner to maintain momentum (eg a snap Holyrood election). In the current cost of living crisis any Westminster government is going to be unpopular, which makes it more likely people will vote for change, simply for change's sake rather than concerning themselves too much with policy (ideal for the SG, who pretty much operate on a single policy platform now). While 2023 looks set to bring only more of the same in terms of energy costs, strikes etc, we might be looking at a changing landscape by the end of 2024 (with a Labour government most likely to be in the offing). Can the SNP rely on such a blunt anti-Tory/Westminster approach to curry favour until then?

[Stairway 2 7]

https://archive.ph/S5UCU

Without the paywall. Has NS said that the defacto referendum is the way they are going. If she has then flynn has went against that. If she hasn't then its a non story

[grunt]

... it wouldn't be a huge surprise if there's agitation for something sooner to maintain momentum (eg a snap Holyrood election). In the current cost of living crisis any Westminster government is going to be unpopular, which makes it more likely people will vote for change, simply for change's sake rather than concerning themselves too much with policy (ideal for the SG, who pretty much operate on a single policy platform now).
Struggled to understand much of this post, but this bit stood out as particularly unclear. How does a "snap Holyrood election" which would presumably re-install yet another SNP Government get described as "change for change sake"? Where's the change there?

[degenerated]

https://archive.ph/S5UCU

Without the paywall. Has NS said that the defacto referendum is the way they are going. If she has then flynn has went against that. If she hasn't then its a non story


When it was put to him that he didn’t seem overly keen on using the next general election as a de facto referendum, he replied: “I don’t think that is a fair representation.”

The only thing he said he was against was collapsing the Scottish government and using a Scottish election as a de facto referendum, that is consistent with the FMs stance as well.

[He's here!]

Struggled to understand much of this post, but this bit stood out as particularly unclear. How does a "snap Holyrood election" which would presumably re-install yet another SNP Government get described as "change for change sake"? Where's the change there?

What I meant is that in a recession-hit UK, Scottish independence might seem worth a punt to enough undecided voters to get the SNP over the 50% threshold Sturgeon would deem a 'de-facto' referendum victory at the next general election.

You're right, another Holyrood victory would be a case of same old, same old, but it's something that's been called for by some among the independence movement rather than waiting for the next general election:

Scottish independence ruling: Call for snap Holyrood election | The Times (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scottish-independence-ruling-call-for-snap-holyrood-election-szhhnkq7r)

[degenerated]

What I meant is that in a recession-hit UK, Scottish independence might seem worth a punt to enough undecided voters to get the SNP over the 50% threshold Sturgeon would deem a 'de-facto' referendum victory at the next general election.

You're right, another Holyrood victory would be a case of same old, same old, but it's something that's been called for by some among the independence movement rather than waiting for the next general election:

Scottish independence ruling: Call for snap Holyrood election | The Times (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scottish-independence-ruling-call-for-snap-holyrood-election-szhhnkq7r)Some being one person

[He's here!]

https://archive.ph/S5UCU

Without the paywall. Has NS said that the defacto referendum is the way they are going. If she has then flynn has went against that. If she hasn't then its a non story

That's what she confirmed after the Supreme Court ruling:

Scotland's Sturgeon: Next election a 'de facto referendum' on independence | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/scotlands-sturgeon-says-uk-court-ruling-referendum-only-makes-case-independence-2022-11-23/)

[degenerated]

That's what she confirmed after the Supreme Court ruling:

Scotland's Sturgeon: Next election a 'de facto referendum' on independence | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/scotlands-sturgeon-says-uk-court-ruling-referendum-only-makes-case-independence-2022-11-23/)The article you linked doesn't say that Flynn is against that though.

[He's here!]

Some being one person

It would be surprising if it's not one of the 'several options' being considered that Flynn alludes to.

[Ozyhibby]

When it was put to him that he didn’t seem overly keen on using the next general election as a de facto referendum, he replied: “I don’t think that is a fair representation.”

The only thing he said he was against was collapsing the Scottish government and using a Scottish election as a de facto referendum, that is consistent with the FMs stance as well.

No wonder. It’s the only part of government Scotland has that actually works.


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[degenerated]

That's what she confirmed after the Supreme Court ruling:

Scotland's Sturgeon: Next election a 'de facto referendum' on independence | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/scotlands-sturgeon-says-uk-court-ruling-referendum-only-makes-case-independence-2022-11-23/)She confirmed it would be put to a party conference to discuss and agree, if that is agreed by conference then it will be adopted as a strategy. If it isn't, it won't.

"I can therefore confirm that I will be asking our National Executive Committee to convene a special party conference in the new year to discuss and agree the detail of a proposed de facto referendum."

[degenerated]

It would be surprising if it's not one of the 'several options' being considered that Flynn alludes to.It would be more surprising if it was given the direct quotes in the article you linked but obviously didn't read :hilarious

“There have been many that have been floated, one of which I do vehemently disagree with, which is the idea of collapsing Holyrood in a cost of living crisis which I think would be utterly absurd."

[archie]

She confirmed it would be put to a party conference to discuss and agree, if that is agreed by conference then it will be adopted as a strategy. If it isn't, it won't.

"I can therefore confirm that I will be asking our National Executive Committee to convene a special party conference in the new year to discuss and agree the detail of a proposed de facto referendum."

Not being picky here, but is that not saying the conference will agree the detail rather than the principle?

[WeeRussell]

It would be more surprising if it was given the direct quotes in the article you linked but obviously didn't read :hilarious

“There have been many that have been floated, one of which I do vehemently disagree with, which is the idea of collapsing Holyrood in a cost of living crisis which I think would be utterly absurd."

What.. you’re not telling me HH is just posting links without reading them properly in order to have a go at Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP, or Scotland?!

[Moulin Yarns]

Fiona Stalker on radio Scotland just now said that Flynn confirmed to her that he fully supports the next general election as a defacto referendum.

[He's here!]

It would be more surprising if it was given the direct quotes in the article you linked but obviously didn't read :hilarious

“There have been many that have been floated, one of which I do vehemently disagree with, which is the idea of collapsing Holyrood in a cost of living crisis which I think would be utterly absurd."

I read it, but that's only his view isn't it?

[marinello59]

Fiona Stalker on radio Scotland just now said that Flynn confirmed to her that he fully supports the next general election as a defacto referendum.

That’s a shame. With the polls showing support for Yes rising I’d be concentrating on using them to force things rather than this ridiculous defacto referendum idea. Though given that Flynn has also said that he only threw his hat in to the ring for the leadership after Blackford resigned I’d be taking anything he said to Fiona Stalker with a large pinch of salt.

[Ozyhibby]

I read it, but that's only his view isn't it?

It’s also NS’s view though so who do you think is going to push this through?


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[He's here!]

It’s also NS’s view though so who do you think is going to push this through?


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Not expecting anyone to push it through, just wondering what the 'numerous options' in addition to the 'de-facto' 2024/25 referendum are.

Campbell seems to think it's part of a 'softening up' process before calling off the 'de-facto' plan, but I know his views are now deemed irrelevant to Sturgeon devotees:

Wings Over Scotland | The first sighting of the kite (https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-first-sighting-of-the-kite/)

[Ozyhibby]

Not expecting anyone to push it through, just wondering what the 'numerous options' in addition to the 'de-facto' 2024/25 referendum are.

Campbell seems to think it's part of a 'softening up' process before calling off the 'de-facto' plan, but I know his views are now deemed irrelevant to Sturgeon devotees:

Wings Over Scotland | The first sighting of the kite (https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-first-sighting-of-the-kite/)

I think they may call of de-facto referendum as well. I think there are too many problems in terms building support. Refusal of democracy is building support nicely as it is. Better to just keep going.


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[He's here!]

Not being picky here, but is that not saying the conference will agree the detail rather than the principle?

Reads that way to me.

Salmond prefers the Holyrood 'de-facto' strategy incidentally:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23183604.alex-salmond-backs-holyrood-plebiscite-amid-referendum-roadblocks/

[Berwickhibby]

Reads that way to me.

Salmond prefers the Holyrood 'de-facto' strategy incidentally:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23183604.alex-salmond-backs-holyrood-plebiscite-amid-referendum-roadblocks/

Who reads that rag… fake news

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221212/b1b98283430e0834c6cb6ec327f96c17.jpg

Another poll showing a majority for Yes. Yougov this time.


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[Glory Lurker]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221212/b1b98283430e0834c6cb6ec327f96c17.jpg

Another poll showing a majority for Yes. Yougov this time.


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Another 1 per cent down. We'll be voting Tory by Christmas

[Ozyhibby]

Another 1 per cent down. We'll be voting Tory by Christmas

Beginning of the end for NS.


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[James310]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221212/b1b98283430e0834c6cb6ec327f96c17.jpg

Another poll showing a majority for Yes. Yougov this time.


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It's in The Times of London so I wonder how genuine it actually is....oh wait it shows Yes winning so it's obviously all fine.

I was waiting for the YouGov poll and this does confirm the uptick in support for Yes that we have seen in the other polls. Still a bit to go to get to the 20+ in a row we saw in 2020/21.

The same polling also showed 43% support for the SNP in a Westminster election, on that level you get into the strange world of Yes leading over No in the polls but losing IndyRef2 as well.

Expect the de facto referendum to be dropped soon and then its back to where we were. Unless Yes can push up a level to get high 50s then I see us staying where we are for some time. The polls into 2023 will be interesting to see if Yes can maintain this lead and if its sustainable, because it wasn't last time.

[Glory Lurker]

It's in The Times of London so I wonder how genuine it actually is....oh wait it shows Yes winning so it's obviously all fine.

I was waiting for the YouGov poll and this does confirm the uptick in support for Yes that we have seen in the other polls. Still a bit to go to get to the 20+ in a row we saw in 2020/21.

The same polling also showed 43% support for the SNP in a Westminster election, on that level you get into the strange world of Yes leading over No in the polls but losing IndyRef2 as well.

Expect the de facto referendum to be dropped soon and then its back to where we were. Unless Yes can push up a level to get high 50s then I see us staying where we are for some time. The polls into 2023 will be interesting to see if Yes can maintain this lead and if its sustainable, because it wasn't last time.

Cool. So you meaning staying in the Union being ahead but not convincingly?

[JeMeSouviens]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221212/b1b98283430e0834c6cb6ec327f96c17.jpg

Another poll showing a majority for Yes. Yougov this time.


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Record high for Yes in yougov polls I think.

[Stairway 2 7]

Record high for Yes in yougov polls I think.

Had 53% yes 2 years ago

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/08/12/scottish-independence-yes-leads-53-47

[degenerated]

Had 53% yes 2 years ago

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/08/12/scottish-independence-yes-leads-53-47Joint record then :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Joint record then :greengrin

Think so. It was 52 a few times around the time of the referendum, but can't see higher

[degenerated]

Think so. It was 52 a few times around the time of the referendum, but can't see higherI suspect the polling that Gove spent Covid funds on and refuses to publish would probably top that 53%, but as he is above the law I guess we'll never know.

[JeMeSouviens]

Had 53% yes 2 years ago

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/08/12/scottish-independence-yes-leads-53-47

That one was 45-40 inc DK. This one is 47-42. Both 53-47 ex DK.

Anyway, yougov has been consistently No friendly so this is a good result for Yes.

[The_Exile]

These numbers will only continue to go in one direction as old 'no' voters die and are replaced by young 'yes' voters. It's only a matter of time until the support for independence is overwhelming IMO.

[greenginger]

These numbers will only continue to go in one direction as old 'no' voters die and are replaced by young 'yes' voters. It's only a matter of time until the support for independence is overwhelming IMO.

younger yes voters become older no voters

[Ozyhibby]

younger yes voters become older no voters

Any evidence of that?


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[WeeRussell]

younger yes voters become older no voters

I would think, broadly speaking, that’s completely false.

[James310]

We have seen polls suggesting support for Indy amongst younger Yes voters drops to 31% if they thought they would be £1000 worse off a year. I wouldn't be hanging my hat on the younger generation just yet.

There seems to be a general acceptance now we will be worse off in the formative years of Indy so if there was any kind of campaign then I am sure that would come into it.

[greenginger]

Any evidence of that?


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only through personal experience. I know a few Indy supporters from the 70’s and 80’s who have changed their views and are now No voters

[grunt]

only through personal experience. I know a few Indy supporters from the 70’s and 80’s who have changed their views and are now No voters

I don’t know anyone who’s gone from Yes to No. Seems a strange direction to take. It would be interesting to know what brought about their change of view.

[Zambernardi1875]

We have seen polls suggesting support for Indy amongst younger Yes voters drops to 31% if they thought they would be £1000 worse off a year. I wouldn't be hanging my hat on the younger generation just yet.

There seems to be a general acceptance now we will be worse off in the formative years of Indy so if there was any kind of campaign then I am sure that would come into it.

Who’s pumping out those negative £1k a year worse off thoughts ?

[Zambernardi1875]

only through personal experience. I know a few Indy supporters from the 70’s and 80’s who have changed their views and are now No voters

They were Indy supporters 40-50 years ago?

[Moulin Yarns]

These numbers will only continue to go in one direction as old 'no' voters die and are replaced by young 'yes' voters. It's only a matter of time until the support for independence is overwhelming IMO.


younger yes voters become older no voters

What happens to us older Yes voters? :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

What happens to us older Yes voters? :greengrin

Same as the young ones. Ignored.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Same as the young ones. Ignored.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm used to that, you must know my wife. :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

https://constitution-unit.com/2022/07/01/are-unionists-the-biggest-threat-to-the-union/


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[greenginger]

I don’t know anyone who’s gone from Yes to No. Seems a strange direction to take. It would be interesting to know what brought about their change of view.


Realism of an independent Scotlands finances now that the oil boom has passed, problems with currency, split up of families with borders between Scotland and rest of UK and probably many other reasons.

Nothing strange about it.

[ronaldo7]

Realism of an independent Scotlands finances now that the oil boom has passed, problems with currency, split up of families with borders between Scotland and rest of UK and probably many other reasons.

Nothing strange about it.

I'm just back from Dublin, Ireland, which is in the EU. No problems getting in and out apart from the weather. Common travel area seen to that. :aok:

[Zambernardi1875]

Realism of an independent Scotlands finances now that the oil boom has passed, problems with currency, split up of families with borders between Scotland and rest of UK and probably many other reasons.

Nothing strange about it.

What absolute fear mongering bull****

[Ozyhibby]

Realism of an independent Scotlands finances now that the oil boom has passed, problems with currency, split up of families with borders between Scotland and rest of UK and probably many other reasons.

Nothing strange about it.

‘Split up of families’? Really? I have family in Ireland, are we split up now?


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[greenginger]

They were Indy supporters 40-50 years ago?


Course there was , where were you during the oil boom ?

[JeMeSouviens]

‘Split up of families’? Really? I have family in Ireland, are we split up now?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My sister gets split up from her Irish husband and their son every time they go through an airport. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm just back from Dublin, Ireland, which is in the EU. No problems getting in and out apart from the weather. Common travel area seen to that. :aok:

I wonder how people feel being split up from their families if some have emigrated to America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc?

[ronaldo7]

I wonder how people feel being split up from their families if some have emigrated to America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc?

I do wonder how those split from families get on in their daily lives, if they can't get through an airport. :greengrin

[grunt]

Realism of an independent Scotlands finances now that the oil boom has passed, problems with currency, split up of families with borders between Scotland and rest of UK and probably many other reasons.

Nothing strange about it.

[emoji23]

[Ozyhibby]

My sister gets split up from her Irish husband and their son every time they go through an airport. :rolleyes:

I bet there is a certain amount of glee when they get fast tracked while she q’s?[emoji23]


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[JeMeSouviens]

I bet there is a certain amount of glee when they get fast tracked while she q’s?[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just a bit. :greengrin

[Zambernardi1875]

Course there was , where were you during the oil boom ?

My point was you know people from 50 years ago that have now changed yes to no. Hardly relevant in todays world

[weecounty hibby]

Realism of an independent Scotlands finances now that the oil boom has passed, problems with currency, split up of families with borders between Scotland and rest of UK and probably many other reasons.

Nothing strange about it.
Oil is propping the UK up at the moment while still producing vast profits for companies. Scotland seems to be unique when it comes to currency. Loads of countries have become independent and managed fine. As for splitting up families, that's not even worth responding to

[greenginger]

My point was you know people from 50 years ago that have now changed yes to no. Hardly relevant in todays world

Their votes are still relevant .

[Zambernardi1875]

Their votes are still relevant .

Ofcourse, but the original poster said he couldn’t imagine yes voters now changing to no. And your evidence against this was you know 2 people from 50 years ago that changed 😂. Plus they will be dead soon. As someone else ponied out

[Ozyhibby]

I think it’s because there is a trend of people generally moving from left to right as they get older that some may think/hope that it will be the same from yes to no. There isn’t really any data to back that up yet and if anything, it is showing not to be the case.


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[The_Exile]

I think it’s because there is a trend of people generally moving from left to right as they get older that some may think/hope that it will be the same from yes to no. There isn’t really any data to back that up yet and if anything, it is showing not to be the case.


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Not aimed at you, more a general point, but people only moved from left to right as they felt they had some kind of asset to protect, my generation and the ones after me have quite literally nothing, we own nothing, we have nothing, we are paid a pittance, so what reason would we move to the right if we have nothing worth 'conserving'?

[Ozyhibby]

Not aimed at you, more a general point, but people only moved from left to right as they felt they had some kind of asset to protect, my generation and the ones after me have quite literally nothing, we own nothing, we have nothing, we are paid a pittance, so what reason would we move to the right if we have nothing worth 'conserving'?

I agree 100%. Young people now don’t have a stake in society the way they have in the past. They are mostly all renting now instead of buying houses and wages have stagnated for 20 years.


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[Jack]

I think it’s because there is a trend of people generally moving from left to right as they get older that some may think/hope that it will be the same from yes to no. There isn’t really any data to back that up yet and if anything, it is showing not to be the case.


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The older I get the angrier I get with the current set up and frustrated there's no way we can change that at the moment. I collect my old age pension next year.

Obviously my peer group are of a similar age and none are for turning the older we get!

[J-C]

https://constitution-unit.com/2022/07/01/are-unionists-the-biggest-threat-to-the-union/


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Jeez, that's one grumpy looking puss on him in that pic.

[Moulin Yarns]

The older I get the angrier I get with the current set up and frustrated there's no way we can change that at the moment. I collect my old age pension next year.

Obviously my peer group are of a similar age and none are for turning the older we get!

I'm pretty much the same. Just qualified for the state pension. I was swithering in 2013, convinced in 2014.

66 and wanting a much fairer society for future generations.


I have no children, and am what I would describe as comfortable. Both my wife and I have wills that donate half to charity.

Basically I have nothing to gain one way or another but believe, 100% that independence will deliver a better future.

[greenginger]

Ofcourse, but the original poster said he couldn’t imagine yes voters now changing to no. And your evidence against this was you know 2 people from 50 years ago that changed 😂. Plus they will be dead soon. As someone else ponied out

I never said I knew 2 people. Stop making things up.

I said I knew a few people who had changed from yes to no .

And, I’ll let you in to a secret , Yes voters die too. :greengrin

[WeeRussell]

Stop making things up.

I said I knew a few people who had changed from yes to no .


Would you be offended if I said I think there’s some irony in the above?

[danhibees1875]

only through personal experience. I know a few Indy supporters from the 70’s and 80’s who have changed their views and are now No voters

That has been my journey (not the 70s and 80s bit!). Although, I'm not convinced it's as scientific/profound as the "left to right" theory - probably because it's a much more engrained, and relatively new, topic. There will be people swapping either way still undoubtedly, but generally I think most would pick and stick on this issue. I feel that mine is fairly un-par-for-course, and so I should attempt to articulate at least a few of the reasons for that now that I've stated my journey.

Overall, I would say the reasons I was previously Yes still generally apply to the debate, and the reasons that I'm now No applied previously too. How I view, quantify, and priortise each argument for/against has changed; there have also been some new developments within that time frame, both generally and for me personally, which have edged me more towards No.

I don't like what our default fiscal position would be (£23.7bn operating deficit last year) or how we would go about managing that, nor am I satisfied by the current stance/general levels of unknown-ness on currency, our future relationship with rUK and the EU, and ultimately the impact it would have on the overall economy, on jobs, and on the housing market. A lot of those areas, I was certainly more blasé about previously which is where I assume the age-based Yes-to-No theory follows suit - typically people get more risk adverse on things that impact currency, economy, housing, jobs when they have more security, ties, and responsibilities in their life that depend on the continuity of such factors.

Brexit is a big double-edged sword as far as recent developments go in my eyes. As an ardent Remainer (the political issue I'm most polarised/opinionated on) it encompasses the Yes argument for me in the ability to entirely responsible for our own decisions (side-stepping the argument over the number of Leave voters in Scotland, and Remain voters in rUK and the arguments over it still being "our" (define) decision) however, it also increases the magnitude of the challenge of becoming independent.

Previously, an iScotland and an rUK both in the EU seemed a much simpler prospect than what it would be now. We'd have the logistic problems we currently face with EU, but with rUK instead - and rUK makes up 3x more of Scotland's trade. We're a lot more intrinsically linked in the way we operate and do business with the UK than we were with the EU. Less reported, it also makes up the most sizeable chunk of our tourist spend - one of our most important sectors particularly when then linked with hospitality and events/entertainment, which I think would be jeopardised in the case of barriers to movement (less likely) and currency exchange, and of course an element of bafflement/resentment towards the decision by rUK holidaymakers. I think Brexit also serves to illustrate what happens when you make seismic and fundamental changes to a country on the whim of a slender majority. It's not pretty.

Overall, I think the setup we have works quite well, and that we would end up in a worse place for changing it. We have the better-meaning, rosier-outlooked, "left-ier" Scottish government using the tools of devolution they have to direct better (subjectively) decision making, with the benefit of being able to do so with a bigger income base at their disposal than they would have otherwise due to fiscal transfers we benefit from through being a part of the UK (£2k extra spend per head compared to UK average). The potential for a more lefty/"nice" government with more control/power to be lefty/nice doesn't fill me with a sense of over-riding gusto and desire to just "give it a go" - particularly given my belief that we'd not be able to fill the black hole that currently gets plugged by fiscal transfers which would leave any government unable to fulfill their nice desires due to subsequent financial constraints.

[greenginger]

Would you be offended if I said I think there’s some irony in the above?

Offended ? How could I possibly get offended on Hibs.net. :greengrin

[greenginger]

That has been my journey (not the 70s and 80s bit!). Although, I'm not convinced it's as scientific/profound as the "left to right" theory - probably because it's a much more engrained, and relatively new, topic. There will be people swapping either way still undoubtedly, but generally I think most would pick and stick on this issue. I feel that mine is fairly un-par-for-course, and so I should attempt to articulate at least a few of the reasons for that now that I've stated my journey.

Overall, I would say the reasons I was previously Yes still generally apply to the debate, and the reasons that I'm now No applied previously too. How I view, quantify, and priortise each argument for/against has changed; there have also been some new developments within that time frame, both generally and for me personally, which have edged me more towards No.

I don't like what our default fiscal position would be (£23.7bn operating deficit last year) or how we would go about managing that, nor am I satisfied by the current stance/general levels of unknown-ness on currency, our future relationship with rUK and the EU, and ultimately the impact it would have on the overall economy, on jobs, and on the housing market. A lot of those areas, I was certainly more blasé about previously which is where I assume the age-based Yes-to-No theory follows suit - typically people get more risk adverse on things that impact currency, economy, housing, jobs when they have more security, ties, and responsibilities in their life that depend on the continuity of such factors.

Brexit is a big double-edged sword as far as recent developments go in my eyes. As an ardent Remainer (the political issue I'm most polarised/opinionated on) it encompasses the Yes argument for me in the ability to entirely responsible for our own decisions (side-stepping the argument over the number of Leave voters in Scotland, and Remain voters in rUK and the arguments over it still being "our" (define) decision) however, it also increases the magnitude of the challenge of becoming independent.

Previously, an iScotland and an rUK both in the EU seemed a much simpler prospect than what it would be now. We'd have the logistic problems we currently face with EU, but with rUK instead - and rUK makes up 3x more of Scotland's trade. We're a lot more intrinsically linked in the way we operate and do business with the UK than we were with the EU. Less reported, it also makes up the most sizeable chunk of our tourist spend - one of our most important sectors particularly when then linked with hospitality and events/entertainment, which I think would be jeopardised in the case of barriers to movement (less likely) and currency exchange, and of course an element of bafflement/resentment towards the decision by rUK holidaymakers. I think Brexit also serves to illustrate what happens when you make seismic and fundamental changes to a country on the whim of a slender majority. It's not pretty.

Overall, I think the setup we have works quite well, and that we would end up in a worse place for changing it. We have the better-meaning, rosier-outlooked, "left-ier" Scottish government using the tools of devolution they have to direct better (subjectively) decision making, with the benefit of being able to do so with a bigger income base at their disposal than they would have otherwise due to fiscal transfers we benefit from through being a part of the UK (£2k extra spend per head compared to UK average). The potential for a more lefty/"nice" government with more control/power to be lefty/nice doesn't fill me with a sense of over-riding gusto and desire to just "give it a go" - particularly given my belief that we'd not be able to fill the black hole that currently gets plugged by fiscal transfers which would leave any government unable to fulfill their nice desires due to subsequent financial constraints.


Well thought out piece, but it will no doubt get classed as fear mongering bull**** very shortly.

[WeeRussell]

Offended ? How could I possibly get offended on Hibs.net. :greengrin

Fair point 👍😂

[Rumble de Thump]

With the last Scottish independence referendum a lot of people couldn't acknowledge that choosing to remain the the UK was a massive risk. It was depicted by politicians and the media as the safe option, offering certainty and stability. We can see how that has turned out. So far, it's been an absolute disaster. For anyone particularly risk averse, choosing to continue to remain in the UK is not a great option.

[Since90+2]

I agree 100%. Young people now don’t have a stake in society the way they have in the past. They are mostly all renting now instead of buying houses and wages have stagnated for 20 years.


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I'm not sure it's correct to say they are all renting.

Of my group of friends who I grew up with, all but 1 owns their own home now.

I don't come from a privileged background, probably about as middle of the road you can get in Edinburgh, but it's not precluded me or almost all of my friends getting on the property ladder.

I'm in my mid 30s, so it could be you are talking about folk younger, but my social group also didn't own homes in our 20s either.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63960289?at_format=link&at_ptr_name=twitter&at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_link_type=web_link&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_campaign_type=owned&at_medium=social&at_link_id=29B89CC4-7B7F-11ED-B385-0EA8923C408C

Supreme Court decision pushing people to Yes?


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[Ozyhibby]

I'm not sure it's correct to say they are all renting.

Of my group of friends who I grew up with, all but 1 owns their own home now.

I don't come from a privileged background, probably about as middle of the road you can get in Edinburgh, but it's not precluded me or almost all of my friends getting on the property ladder.

I'm in my mid 30s, so it could be you are talking about folk younger, but my social group also didn't own homes in our 20s either.

The stats point to a rapid decline in home ownership levels over the last 15 years.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/britain-poverty-cost-of-living-food-crisis-rcna57630

UK today.


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[Zambernardi1875]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/britain-poverty-cost-of-living-food-crisis-rcna57630

UK today.


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Royal family could auction off a few items to raise money.

[greenginger]

The stats point to a rapid decline in home ownership levels over the last 15 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-household-survey-2019-key-findings/pages/5/

The stats point to a drop of 66% of owner occupation in 2009 to 62% in 2019.

I would think it has a lot to do with the massive tax now payable on buying a property and the uncertainties especially amongst younger people of where they want to settle .

Renting has a lot of advantages if you are likely to be changing jobs and job locations every couple of years.

[Santa Cruz]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/britain-poverty-cost-of-living-food-crisis-rcna57630

UK today.


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Depressing read, why have you stuck it on this thread? I can't understand the need to politicise people's suffering.

[Ozyhibby]

Depressing read, why have you stuck it on this thread? I can't understand the need to politicise people's suffering.

It’s a story about the direction of travel the UK is choosing and this is a thread about if we want to stay in the UK.


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[OldEast]

Depressing read, why have you stuck it on this thread? I can't understand the need to politicise people's suffering.

Probably because the poster feels life could be better in an independent Scotland

[Santa Cruz]

Probably because the poster feels life could be better in an independent Scotland

How is that helpful in the here and now though. Life should be better today in Scotland than it is for the individuals suffering right now in Morecombe in that article. We get £2,000 more per head that funds public services which provide support to the vulnerable and wider community. The personal suffering and misery is happening right through the UK, it's not just English citizens being failed imo.

No disrespect to any posters, I'm not contributing to this issue any further on this thread, it doesn't belong here. Just don't want folk thinking I'm deefaying them.

[OldEast]

How is that helpful in the here and now though. Life should be better today in Scotland than it is for the individuals suffering right now in Morecombe in that article. We get £2,000 more per head that funds public services which provide support to the vulnerable and wider community. The personal suffering and misery is happening right through the UK, it's not just English citizens being failed imo.

No disrespect to any posters, I'm not contributing to this issue any further on this thread, it doesn't belong here. Just don't want folk thinking I'm deefaying them.

Surely it was about life currently in the UK, not just England. A union some want to break away from. Seemed a perfectly reasonable post. Shielding our eyes from reality isn't for me.

[Stairway 2 7]

Another yes lead

electpoliticsuk
·
1h
Scottish Independence Voting Intention:

YES: 43% (=)
NO: 42% (-3)
Undecided: 8% (+1)

Via
@YouGov
, On 22-25 November,
Changes w/ 30 Sept-4 Oct


Scottish Westminster Voting Intention:

SNP: 41% (-4)
LAB: 30% (-1)
CON: 14% (+2)

Via @YouGov, 22-25 November,
Changes w/ 30 Sep-4 Oct.

[grunt]

Scottish Westminster Voting Intention:

CON: 14% (+2)
:confused:

[Stairway 2 7]

:confused:

A couple of nut jobs out there thinking they are doing a good job 😆

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/23191235.independence-will-become-settled-will---thanks-unionists/


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[J-C]

Another yes lead

electpoliticsuk
·
1h
Scottish Independence Voting Intention:

YES: 43% (=)
NO: 42% (-3)
Undecided: 8% (+1)

Via
@YouGov
, On 22-25 November,
Changes w/ 30 Sept-4 Oct


Scottish Westminster Voting Intention:

SNP: 41% (-4)
LAB: 30% (-1)
CON: 14% (+2)

Via @YouGov, 22-25 November,
Changes w/ 30 Sep-4 Oct.

No goes down but Tory +2 ?

43+42+8=93, where's the missing 7%

[CropleyWasGod]

No goes down but Tory +2 ?

43+42+8=93, where's the missing 7%

Preferred not to say.

[J-C]

Preferred not to say.

👍

[Since90+2]

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-household-survey-2019-key-findings/pages/5/

The stats point to a drop of 66% of owner occupation in 2009 to 62% in 2019.

I would think it has a lot to do with the massive tax now payable on buying a property and the uncertainties especially amongst younger people of where they want to settle .

Renting has a lot of advantages if you are likely to be changing jobs and job locations every couple of years.

I wouldn't call a 4% drop in 10 years a "rapid decline".

[Ozyhibby]

I wouldn't call a 4% drop in 10 years a "rapid decline".

That’s in all home ownership. Almost all of that 4% is in the drop in young people buying.


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[greenginger]

That’s in all home ownership. Almost all of that 4% is in the drop in young people buying.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Could that be because young people might not be sure where they want to settle or stick with the same job.

They could end up paying a large house purchase tax charge , then having to repeat the expense because they are offered a more attractive job in another part of the country.

Renting allows flexibility.

[Ozyhibby]

Could that be because young people might not be sure where they want to settle or stick with the same job.

They could end up paying a large house purchase tax charge , then having to repeat the expense because they are offered a more attractive job in another part of the country.

Renting allows flexibility.

I think it’s more to do with the huge deposits required now. Young people are struggling to save up the 10% purchase cost and have the income to pass the mortgage stress tests.


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[danhibees1875]

Could that be because young people might not be sure where they want to settle or stick with the same job.

They could end up paying a large house purchase tax charge , then having to repeat the expense because they are offered a more attractive job in another part of the country.

Renting allows flexibility.

I get where you're coming from, but I think it's far more likely to be the property values, and therefore deposits required, and the ratio of that amount with average wages making it harder to afford to buy today than 20-30 years ago.

There are a lot of helpful schemes to alleviate that though - H2B ISA's and LISA's to help saving, 5% deposit schemes, and reduced stamp duty for first time buyers.

I'm not really sure what the relevant statistics are for it though.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think it’s more to do with the huge deposits required now. Young people are struggling to save up the 10% purchase cost and have the income to pass the mortgage stress tests.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Indeed. How do you save up for that huge deposit when rents are eye watering as are utility bills ect. The number of under 35s living with parents has doubled to 38% in a decade. With the average one bedroom flat in Edinburgh now 900 a month what chance do they have, 2 bed 1,225, 3 bed 1,735, 4 bed 2,366

[grunt]

I see that the SNP motion to amend the Scotland Act in Westminster yesterday made such a splash that none of our union-supporting posters even bothered to mention it.

[Moulin Yarns]

I see that the SNP motion to amend the Scotland Act in Westminster yesterday made such a splash that none of our union-supporting posters even bothered to mention it.


It's funny (not) how Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish mps are supposedly prevented from voting on English only laws (EVEL) but everyone is allowed to vote against what Scottish MPs want? 🤔

[Mibbes Aye]

It's funny (not) how Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish mps are supposedly prevented from voting on English only laws (EVEL) but everyone is allowed to vote against what Scottish MPs want? 🤔

You were right to use the word ‘supposedly’. EVEL didn’t stop Scottish MPs voting, it just required a majority of English votes to pass.

And it got abolished in 2021 and suspended for a few years before that.

And the Devolution Act was an Act of Parliament with implications for constituents across the U.K. The changes the SNP were seeking created even greater implications.

These aren’t my opinions, so don’t shoot the messenger, they are just facts!

[archie]

I see that the SNP motion to amend the Scotland Act in Westminster yesterday made such a splash that none of our union-supporting posters even bothered to mention it.

What are you getting at?

[grunt]

What are you getting at?Is it not perfectly clear?

[WhileTheChief..]

What are you getting at?

He thinks we all scour the internet for anything remotely related to Indy.

The reality is some of us take a passing interest and post now and then. We’re not all political junkies out for a fight every day.

[archie]

Is it not perfectly clear?

Well I wasn't sure if it was a comment on the lack of interest of posters here or a criticism of the tactic.

[grunt]

... anything remotely related to Indy.
Wouldn't you say that a bill to amend the Scotland Act to remove the need for a s30 approval was a bit more than "remotely" related to independence?

I'm just surprised no one mentioned it, is all.

[grunt]

Well I wasn't sure if it was a comment on the lack of interest of posters here or a criticism of the tactic.
Oh I see. I was just surprised at how little coverage it got, both here and in the bigger media world.

[ronaldo7]

I see that the SNP motion to amend the Scotland Act in Westminster yesterday made such a splash that none of our union-supporting posters even bothered to mention it.

English votes outnumber Scottish votes. Where did the 256 come from. When I looked in, their were 3 Tories and about 5 labour MPs in attendance.

[grunt]

English votes outnumber Scottish votes. Where did the 256 come from. When I looked in, there were 3 Tories and about 5 labour MPs in attendance.
You don't have to be sitting in the chamber to vote in the lobby.

[ronaldo7]

You don't have to be sitting in the chamber to vote in the lobby.

Aye. From the restaurant to the lobby, and back to the bar without listening/taking part in the debate.

[He's here!]

Oh I see. I was just surprised at how little coverage it got, both here and in the bigger media world.

I confess I had no idea this was happening, probably because as you say there was next to no coverage of it.

Having now read up on what it was all about I'm guessing it didn't get much traction because it was always going to be a bit of a non event ie never had a hope of succeeding.

I get that the thinking behind it would be to dial up the democracy denial narrative but it looks like little more than an attempted publicity stunt.

[grunt]

I get that the thinking behind it would be to dial up the democracy denial narrative but it looks like little more than an attempted publicity stunt.I think that's harsh and unfair. If they hadn't tried it, at some point in the future there would have been someone criticising the SNP saying, "you didn't even try to amend the Scotland Act". It's about covering all the bases.

[Since90+2]

Indeed. How do you save up for that huge deposit when rents are eye watering as are utility bills ect. The number of under 35s living with parents has doubled to 38% in a decade. With the average one bedroom flat in Edinburgh now 900 a month what chance do they have, 2 bed 1,225, 3 bed 1,735, 4 bed 2,366

When you say average, what calculation are you using? The cast majority of 2 bed rents I can see online are less than £1,225 a month.

[Stairway 2 7]

When you say average, what calculation are you using? The cast majority of 2 bed rents I can see online are less than £1,225 a month.

It's the average, so obviously there will be cheaper and dearer. Here's the data

https://www.citylets.co.uk/research/reports/property-rental-report-edinburgh-2022-q3/

[Since90+2]

It's the average, so obviously there will be cheaper and dearer. Here's the data

https://www.citylets.co.uk/research/reports/property-rental-report-edinburgh-2022-q3/

But what method are they using to calculate that? "Average" isn't a mathematical calculation.

For instance, if you have 10 flats for rent, 9 at £900 and the other at £10,000 depending on the calculation it could be massively misrepresented.

[Stairway 2 7]

But what method are they using to calculate that? "Average" isn't a mathematical calculation.

For instance, if you have 10 flats for rent, 9 at £900 and the other at £10,000 depending on the calculation it could be massively misrepresented.

You can download the data half way down the page, because I'm not interested enough if it's mean, median, mode ha. The more important fact is using the same methodology 2 beds have went up 26% in 5 years and 68% in 10 years

[greenginger]

Indeed. How do you save up for that huge deposit when rents are eye watering as are utility bills ect. The number of under 35s living with parents has doubled to 38% in a decade. With the average one bedroom flat in Edinburgh now 900 a month what chance do they have, 2 bed 1,225, 3 bed 1,735, 4 bed 2,366

Are these figures taken from what properties are available for rent at the moment or an average of all private rentable accommodation in Edinburgh occupied and unoccupied ?

I looked at a couple of rental company web sites and see some huge rentals being asked, but I’d guess that’s why they are still available.

I know there are a lot of 2,3, and 4 bedroom flats currently occupied at lesser rents.

[Stairway 2 7]

Are these figures taken from what properties are available for rent at the moment or an average of all private rentable accommodation in Edinburgh occupied and unoccupied ?

I looked at a couple of rental company web sites and see some huge rentals being asked, but I’d guess that’s why they are still available.

I know there are a lot of 2,3, and 4 bedroom flats currently occupied at lesser rents.

https://www.citylets.co.uk/research/reports/property-rental-report-edinburgh-2022-q3/

[Mon Dieu4]

Are these figures taken from what properties are available for rent at the moment or an average of all private rentable accommodation in Edinburgh occupied and unoccupied ?

I looked at a couple of rental company web sites and see some huge rentals being asked, but I’d guess that’s why they are still available.

I know there are a lot of 2,3, and 4 bedroom flats currently occupied at lesser rents.

My next door neighbour just rented her one bedroom flat out for £900 a month unfurnished, it was on the letting agents website for one day before it was taken, add in council tax, insurance and electricity then you are at £1,100 for a one bedroom flat before you take into account the other costs of living

[Ozyhibby]

My next door neighbour just rented her one bedroom flat out for £900 a month unfurnished, it was on the letting agents website for one day before it was taken, add in council tax, insurance and electricity then you are at £1,100 for a one bedroom flat before you take into account the other costs of living

We need to build lots more houses, especially in and around Edinburgh. And it’s a great way to get growth back into the economy at minimal expense to the public purse.


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[The_Exile]

I've mentioned a few times on here I've been on the housing list (East Lothian) for over 7 years now, I'm nowhere near getting a place and I've been stuck in a 1 bedroom flat with 3 kids (luckily it's mid-market rent so it's not up at the cost mentioned above, but I've still paid over £50k rent in those 7 years, the bank refused a mortgage application because they said I couldn't afford to pay a mortgage, this is obviously rubbish, never missed a rent payment and is essentially class warfare in my opinion). There's plenty places getting built but obviously not enough social housing (i can't remember the number off the top of my head but it was well under 20% of what's needed back when I looked into this).

If it were up to me, I'd limit everyone to 1 place only, I wouldn't allow people to buy properties as an investment, it should be a basic human right to have somewhere suitable to live. Can you imagine your only dream in life to have a garden? That's where I am, I've been on the allotment waiting list for 9 years and again, nowehere near the top. Scotland is broken and nobody really knows the true extent of the state of the problem(s) unless you live in the shadows where society is essentially closed off to you.

[OldEast]

I've mentioned a few times on here I've been on the housing list (East Lothian) for over 7 years now, I'm nowhere near getting a place and I've been stuck in a 1 bedroom flat with 3 kids (luckily it's mid-market rent so it's not up at the cost mentioned above, but I've still paid over £50k rent in those 7 years, the bank refused a mortgage application because they said I couldn't afford to pay a mortgage, this is obviously rubbish, never missed a rent payment and is essentially class warfare in my opinion). There's plenty places getting built but obviously not enough social housing (i can't remember the number off the top of my head but it was well under 20% of what's needed back when I looked into this).

If it were up to me, I'd limit everyone to 1 place only, I wouldn't allow people to buy properties as an investment, it should be a basic human right to have somewhere suitable to live. Can you imagine your only dream in life to have a garden? That's where I am, I've been on the allotment waiting list for 9 years and again, nowehere near the top. Scotland is broken and nobody really knows the true extent of the state of the problem(s) unless you live in the shadows where society is essentially closed off to you.

I wouldn't go as far as only allowing people to have one house, but I've felt for years that multi property ownership by individuals during a housing crisis is bordering on obscene

[He's here!]

Alex Salmond: Nicola Sturgeon is ‘flying the white flag’ on Scottish independence (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/alex-salmond-nicola-sturgeon-is-flying-the-white-flag-on-scottish-independence/ar-AA15koPn)

Salmond not happy at the independence fund being put to better use.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-snp-to-hold-democracy-scotland-conference-on-how-to-secure-indyref2-3957820

Democracy Scotland conference to be held in March.


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[He's here!]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-snp-to-hold-democracy-scotland-conference-on-how-to-secure-indyref2-3957820

Democracy Scotland conference to be held in March.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Seems rather far away to be an 'emergency response' to democracy being denied.

[Hibby Bairn]

I've mentioned a few times on here I've been on the housing list (East Lothian) for over 7 years now, I'm nowhere near getting a place and I've been stuck in a 1 bedroom flat with 3 kids (luckily it's mid-market rent so it's not up at the cost mentioned above, but I've still paid over £50k rent in those 7 years, the bank refused a mortgage application because they said I couldn't afford to pay a mortgage, this is obviously rubbish, never missed a rent payment and is essentially class warfare in my opinion). There's plenty places getting built but obviously not enough social housing (i can't remember the number off the top of my head but it was well under 20% of what's needed back when I looked into this).

If it were up to me, I'd limit everyone to 1 place only, I wouldn't allow people to buy properties as an investment, it should be a basic human right to have somewhere suitable to live. Can you imagine your only dream in life to have a garden? That's where I am, I've been on the allotment waiting list for 9 years and again, nowehere near the top. Scotland is broken and nobody really knows the true extent of the state of the problem(s) unless you live in the shadows where society is essentially closed off to you.

So many things wrong in public policy that is enabling this. How hard can it be to sort these issues ffs. Where's the talent in government to make it happen?

[Santa Cruz]

I've mentioned a few times on here I've been on the housing list (East Lothian) for over 7 years now, I'm nowhere near getting a place and I've been stuck in a 1 bedroom flat with 3 kids (luckily it's mid-market rent so it's not up at the cost mentioned above, but I've still paid over £50k rent in those 7 years, the bank refused a mortgage application because they said I couldn't afford to pay a mortgage, this is obviously rubbish, never missed a rent payment and is essentially class warfare in my opinion). There's plenty places getting built but obviously not enough social housing (i can't remember the number off the top of my head but it was well under 20% of what's needed back when I looked into this).

If it were up to me, I'd limit everyone to 1 place only, I wouldn't allow people to buy properties as an investment, it should be a basic human right to have somewhere suitable to live. Can you imagine your only dream in life to have a garden? That's where I am, I've been on the allotment waiting list for 9 years and again, nowehere near the top. Scotland is broken and nobody really knows the true extent of the state of the problem(s) unless you live in the shadows where society is essentially closed off to you.


Posting just in case you aren't aware of E.Lothian based Homes for Lifes (dare say you are). I have heard of social rental tenants in CEC downsizing through the mutual exchange scheme.

https://www.homesforlife.co.uk/

[James310]

Seems rather far away to be an 'emergency response' to democracy being denied.

The important question is where are we now on Mike Russell's 11 point plan for Independence? Remember that?

[Glory Lurker]

The important question is where are we now on Mike Russell's 11 point plan for Independence? Remember that?

As an independence supporter, I don't care