Scottish Independence

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221218/b41f0c25f576e8f5d9149d4a9e5b58aa.jpg
Another poll in favour of Indy.


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[Since90+2]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221218/b41f0c25f576e8f5d9149d4a9e5b58aa.jpg
Another poll in favour of Indy.


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How many in a row is that now?

[Ozyhibby]

How many in a row is that now?

6. I still think of it as 50/50 for now.

https://news.stv.tv/politics/mhairi-black-says-scotland-has-to-do-more-to-highlight-independence-benefits


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[Since90+2]

6. I still think of it as 50/50 for now.

https://news.stv.tv/politics/mhairi-black-says-scotland-has-to-do-more-to-highlight-independence-benefits


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If only we had a way to ask the whole country, it would mean we didn't have to constantly have polls.

[grunt]

How many in a row is that now?
Doesn't matter how many polls there are that show people want independence. Many on here will tell you we had our chance back in 2014 and now we should all just suck it up. That's how democracy works, apparently.

[Since90+2]

Doesn't matter how many polls there are that show people want independence. Many on here will tell you we had our chance back in 2014 and now we should all just suck it up. That's how democracy works, apparently.

Yip, democracy ended in 2014.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s still hard to believe that the ‘No’ side has allowed themselves to be boxed in as standing against democracy.


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[James310]

It’s still hard to believe that the ‘No’ side has allowed themselves to be boxed in as standing against democracy.


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Because believe it or not most No voters don't think like that. Weird isn't it.

If only they thought like you they would see the light.

[Ozyhibby]

Because believe it or not most No voters don't think like that. Weird isn't it.

If only they thought like you they would see the light.

Probably why they didn’t see it coming.


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[James310]

Probably why they didn’t see it coming.


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Didn't see what coming? I think everyone knew the constitution was reserved, it was in the Scotland Act.

[Skol]

The discussion across the two threads recently makes me feel if your views do not align with a yes vote, they are not valid.

[grunt]

The discussion across the two threads recently makes me feel if your views do not align with a yes vote, they are not valid.
Perfectly valid.


Just wrong. :wink:

[grunt]

Possibly worth pointing out that this thread started life as a poll, and the votes currently show Yes with a majority at 70% against No on 26%. So No views aren't invalid, but they're not the majority view on this thread at least.

[Ozyhibby]

Possibly worth pointing out that this thread started life as a poll, and the votes currently show Yes with a majority at 70% against No on 26%. So No views aren't invalid, but they're not the majority view on this thread at least.

I haven’t even voted on that I don’t think.


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[Skol]

Perfectly valid.


Just wrong. :wink:

I only agree with one of those statements. :greengrin

I think reality lies somewhere in the middle. Some benefits of being independent. Some consequences. It’s a case of where you as an individual draw the line based on the evidence and the conclusions you draw from it.

I don’t believe I have voted in the poll on this thread.

[Skol]

My no vote added. :agree:

[The_Exile]

Posting just in case you aren't aware of E.Lothian based Homes for Lifes (dare say you are). I have heard of social rental tenants in CEC downsizing through the mutual exchange scheme.

https://www.homesforlife.co.uk/

Thanks for that mate, and yep I'm aware of them, I'm registered with them and have been bidding on their houses for the aforementioned 7 years. The problem is, I don't qualify for any priority as my kids don't actually exist with these places as I'm not the primary carer. As far as Homes for Life, Castle Rock, East Lothian Housing Association, East Lothian Council etc are concerned I'm on my own because I'm not the primary carer and therefore the kids aren't included in the calculations. So I'm essentially, in their view, a single guy earning just above the threshold (£21k a year) so they're not obliged to assist me. I don't qualify for housing benefit either (or any other benefit) as you need to be in receipt of child benefit for that and obviously only mum gets that.

I've been through these places complaints processes, I've been to my MP, I've been to my MSP, I've spoken to newspapers, I'm a type 1 diabetic so went down the "I'm disabled" route but type 1 diabetes isn't counted as a disability even although it's an actual chronic long-term disability, you only qualify as 'disabled' if you need help feeding and clothing yourself. I've been down the mental health route and spoken with CAPS Advocacy, Voiceability, Citizens Advice, East Lothian Council (Housing Options Team), Financial Inclusion Team, Doctors, specialists at the hospital. I've tried everything I can think of on top of everything people who work with this day in day out have suggested and at the end of the day, people like me are very easy to ignore by all of the above places as there's nothing in legislation that says they need to help me, so I'm just kind of left to drift along in absolute poverty without becoming so much as a statistic.

Anyway, that got quite heavy, the country is completely ****ed for single dads and can see no chance of anything ever changing in that respect. There are thousands of us up and down the land in the same boat, crying out for some place to help us but ever single door we try to open is slammed in our faces. Lots of help if you're mum, absolutely nothing if you're dad.

In tying up the aboe with the thread, this is kind of why I will vote SNP until independence but then I want them nowhere near governance afterwards. They have had a long long time to do something about the abject despair of the housing situation up here as that is devolved and I've seen no progress. I can only see it getting worse for my kids generation if things don't change, as housing becomes so much scarcer and inequality so much more prevelant.

[WeeRussell]

Thanks for that mate, and yep I'm aware of them, I'm registered with them and have been bidding on their houses for the aforementioned 7 years. The problem is, I don't qualify for any priority as my kids don't actually exist with these places as I'm not the primary carer. As far as Homes for Life, Castle Rock, East Lothian Housing Association, East Lothian Council etc are concerned I'm on my own because I'm not the primary carer and therefore the kids aren't included in the calculations. So I'm essentially, in their view, a single guy earning just above the threshold (£21k a year) so they're not obliged to assist me. I don't qualify for housing benefit either (or any other benefit) as you need to be in receipt of child benefit for that and obviously only mum gets that.

I've been through these places complaints processes, I've been to my MP, I've been to my MSP, I've spoken to newspapers, I'm a type 1 diabetic so went down the "I'm disabled" route but type 1 diabetes isn't counted as a disability even although it's an actual chronic long-term disability, you only qualify as 'disabled' if you need help feeding and clothing yourself. I've been down the mental health route and spoken with CAPS Advocacy, Voiceability, Citizens Advice, East Lothian Council (Housing Options Team), Financial Inclusion Team, Doctors, specialists at the hospital. I've tried everything I can think of on top of everything people who work with this day in day out have suggested and at the end of the day, people like me are very easy to ignore by all of the above places as there's nothing in legislation that says they need to help me, so I'm just kind of left to drift along in absolute poverty without becoming so much as a statistic.

Anyway, that got quite heavy, the country is completely ****ed for single dads and can see no chance of anything ever changing in that respect. There are thousands of us up and down the land in the same boat, crying out for some place to help us but ever single door we try to open is slammed in our faces. Lots of help if you're mum, absolutely nothing if you're dad.

In tying up the aboe with the thread, this is kind of why I will vote SNP until independence but then I want them nowhere near governance afterwards. They have had a long long time to do something about the abject despair of the housing situation up here as that is devolved and I've seen no progress. I can only see it getting worse for my kids generation if things don't change, as housing becomes so much scarcer and inequality so much more prevelant.

Decent post and I hope things get better for you soon 👍

[Since90+2]

Thanks for that mate, and yep I'm aware of them, I'm registered with them and have been bidding on their houses for the aforementioned 7 years. The problem is, I don't qualify for any priority as my kids don't actually exist with these places as I'm not the primary carer. As far as Homes for Life, Castle Rock, East Lothian Housing Association, East Lothian Council etc are concerned I'm on my own because I'm not the primary carer and therefore the kids aren't included in the calculations. So I'm essentially, in their view, a single guy earning just above the threshold (£21k a year) so they're not obliged to assist me. I don't qualify for housing benefit either (or any other benefit) as you need to be in receipt of child benefit for that and obviously only mum gets that.

I've been through these places complaints processes, I've been to my MP, I've been to my MSP, I've spoken to newspapers, I'm a type 1 diabetic so went down the "I'm disabled" route but type 1 diabetes isn't counted as a disability even although it's an actual chronic long-term disability, you only qualify as 'disabled' if you need help feeding and clothing yourself. I've been down the mental health route and spoken with CAPS Advocacy, Voiceability, Citizens Advice, East Lothian Council (Housing Options Team), Financial Inclusion Team, Doctors, specialists at the hospital. I've tried everything I can think of on top of everything people who work with this day in day out have suggested and at the end of the day, people like me are very easy to ignore by all of the above places as there's nothing in legislation that says they need to help me, so I'm just kind of left to drift along in absolute poverty without becoming so much as a statistic.

Anyway, that got quite heavy, the country is completely ****ed for single dads and can see no chance of anything ever changing in that respect. There are thousands of us up and down the land in the same boat, crying out for some place to help us but ever single door we try to open is slammed in our faces. Lots of help if you're mum, absolutely nothing if you're dad.

In tying up the aboe with the thread, this is kind of why I will vote SNP until independence but then I want them nowhere near governance afterwards. They have had a long long time to do something about the abject despair of the housing situation up here as that is devolved and I've seen no progress. I can only see it getting worse for my kids generation if things don't change, as housing becomes so much scarcer and inequality so much more prevelant.

What is the salary threshold for getting assistance? Might seem a bit crazy but if it's £1000 less would you be better off dropping your salary and then qualifying for help with housing?

I agree with your other points about the system being setup to help mum's but nothing for father's. I've been through a seperation with a kid and completely agree.

It's pretty much accepted sexism and doesn't happen in any other part of society.

[Skol]

That is a really sad story and I hope you get something sorted and quickly.

Re your last paragraph though. Why do you think it won’t be the snp in charge post independence? If it’s not then why will anyone else be better. I really struggle to understand why you trust snp for the short(ok medium) term but not long term.

[WeeRussell]

That is a really sad story and I hope you get something sorted and quickly.

Re your last paragraph though. Why do you think it won’t be the snp in charge post independence? If it’s not then why will anyone else be better. I really struggle to understand why you trust snp for the short(ok medium) term but not long term.

I thought that was obvious and been said by multiple people on here before? I presume he, like many, sees the SNP as a means to independence and a more-fitting democracy where he can then vote for the party he wants to take things forward. Some people even believe the SNP in its current form will cease to exist once the main goal is achieved.

I want independence, and while I’m far from anti-SNP, I’ll be happy to see what’s on the table after that happens. That’s the beauty of it, our votes might actually mean something in terms of our ruling government.

[Santa Cruz]

I thought that was obvious and been said by multiple people on here before? I presume he, like many, sees the SNP as a means to independence and a more-fitting democracy where he can then vote for the party he wants to take things forward. Some people even believe the SNP in its current form will cease to exist once the main goal is achieved.

I want independence, and while I’m far from anti-SNP, I’ll be happy to see what’s on the table after that happens. That’s the beauty of it, our votes might actually mean something in terms of our ruling government.

Think it's more deep rooted than that. You could rightly point the finger at any Gov who has been in power for 15 years for a shortage of suitable social housing. Seems to me the poster has left no stone unturned trying to find a solution to his housing problem. It's a system fault not unique to any one political party which favours one parents rights over the other. This could probably merit a thread of it's own entitled "injustice".

[WeeRussell]

Think it's more deep rooted than that. You could rightly point the finger at any Gov who has been in power for 15 years for a shortage of suitable social housing. Seems to me the poster has left no stone unturned trying to find a solution to his housing problem. It's a system fault not unique to any one political party which favours one parents rights over the other. This could probably merit a thread of it's own entitled "injustice".

Fair points SC and don't disagree with any of it. To be clearer, I was only responding generally to the bit about voting SNP for now but not 'trusting them' in the long term :aok:

[Santa Cruz]

Fair points SC and don't disagree with any of it. To be clearer, I was only responding generally to the bit about voting SNP for now but not 'trusting them' in the long term :aok:

I know. My post wasn't aimed at you, it was more general. Apologies if it came across that way, I should have posted seperatly. :aok:

[WeeRussell]

I know. My post wasn't aimed at you, it was more general. Apologies if it came across that way, I should have posted seperatly. :aok:

Nice one and not at all 👍 I did think as much but thought I’d clarify

[The_Exile]

As has been touched on above, I ultimately want an independent Scotland with a democracy which is much more aligned with what I feel the country wants/needs, as our current version of democracy isn't working for the country as a whole IMO. Voting SNP (or Greens) is the main way to get the message across that I want independence (I have voted for almost all political parties in the past apart from the Tories and the Lib Dems). I'm fairly confident the number of people in my position is significant, in that we want independence but that we feel the SNP aren't the party to govern afterwards.

Politcal parties can become a victim of their own success, and can certainly govern for too long without serious opposition (you only need to look to Westminster to see the horrendous effects of no opposition). I think that's where the SNP are at just now, there's nobody really pushing them hard up here and therefore there's no real incentive for them to go above and beyond and deliver on things that a lot of people will feel are languishing without any attention. I can't really see much changing in Scottish politics until the next referendum is done, as the indy question will dominate our political landscape for the forseeable (this is obviously a bad thing but I understand why Westminster are denying it, loud voices will get sick of it dominating the political landscape here and they'll be hoping for apathy to set in).

[The_Exile]

What is the salary threshold for getting assistance? Might seem a bit crazy but if it's £1000 less would you be better off dropping your salary and then qualifying for help with housing?

I agree with your other points about the system being setup to help mum's but nothing for father's. I've been through a seperation with a kid and completely agree.

It's pretty much accepted sexism and doesn't happen in any other part of society.

The threshold is around £20.5k on last check and I have been looking at reducing my hours to trigger universal credit which would open up other benefits (dental etc), although I think I have a vague recollection of a recent announcement where the Tories are trying to clamp down on people working less hours to qualify for benefits. It's a question I've put to the folks on the universal credit site last week so I'm just waiting on a response from them.

[Santa Cruz]

The threshold is around £20.5k on last check and I have been looking at reducing my hours to trigger universal credit which would open up other benefits (dental etc), although I think I have a vague recollection of a recent announcement where the Tories are trying to clamp down on people working less hours to qualify for benefits. It's a question I've put to the folks on the universal credit site last week so I'm just waiting on a response from them.

No, they've not started yet. Existing UC Claimants will be invited in for a chat with a job coach to encourage ways to work more hours and increase their earnings was recently announced. New claimants with valid reasons for reducing hours, whether that be health or carer responsibilities will go to the bottom of the job coach work pile (there's not enough of them either btw so it will take them ages to work through all claimants). You should be fine, I know someone who reduced their hours to balance caring responsibilities fairly recently, they didn't encounter any probs. That's the system, stay within the rules and you'll get what you're entitled to - eventually. Good Luck.

[Skol]

Thanks for the replies.

The bit I struggle with is if you don’t trust the snp to run an independent Scotland why do you trust their view that it’s the best for Scotland. Especially as no other significant party shares the snp view.

I understand why people want away from Westminster and it’s not hard to fathom why.

[wookie70]

Thanks for the replies.

The bit I struggle with is if you don’t trust the snp to run an independent Scotland why do you trust their view that it’s the best for Scotland. Especially as no other significant party shares the snp view.

I understand why people want away from Westminster and it’s not hard to fathom why.

I don't trust the SNP economic forecasts, then again I don't trust any economic forecast as they are only correct until the rich and powerful decide to have a war, put someone out of business or just have some financial fun at the expense of the poor. At that point they will scoop up as much as they can and ask us to pay for any shortfall. It is all a confidence trick anyway and Westminster is one of the founding members and are clinging on to their seat at that table.

For many independence is about democracy far more than economy and money. It isn't short term and probably isn't even medium term. I'm prepared to sacrifice for democracy as at least I am getting something in return. At the moment I am sacrificing salary, pensions and my standard of living for shareholders and the rich with nothing in return. Very soon many will have little to lose by voting Yes.

I think there is clear water between Scotland and England in terms of the way we want our country to be. The difference is they literally get what they vote for and we haven't during the vast majority of our populations voting lives. I think it is almost certain there will be some form of PR in an Indi Scotland and that means government will align far closer to the will and thoughts of the people. At the moment we see that in a limited way but so much more would be possible if we are an independent nation.

Unless the SNP move significantly to the left and become far more progressive I doubt they would last more than a single term in an Independent Scotland. They have the big boy did it excuse for the moment for their lack of progress on social equality but that won't be there and they will have to practice what they preach. I think they are a centrist party at heart and some form of left leaning party would be the government in Scotland.

[The_Exile]

The bit I struggle with is if you don’t trust the snp to run an independent Scotland why do you trust their view that it’s the best for Scotland.

Not sure these two views have to be exlusively linked do they? Just because I share the view that Scotland should be independent doesn't automatically mean there's only one party that can deliver what I want that country to look like. I'm of the opinion that after independence we will get a resurgent true socialist party, whether that be a Labour party returning to its roots, or the SSP, or another party built from the ground up that would better serve what the Scottish people would vote for (I fully expect the SNP to break up naturally though as it does seem to be a bit of a broad church with a single main focus).

An independent Scotland also gives new talent coming through a platform to grow without the horrendous backdrop of Westminster to contend with, focussing on just Scottish issues with full decision-making powers, without the electorate being hamstrung by the "that's controlled at Westminster" cop out. I do wonder how well the SNP would do if they had full control over certain matters (This is wandering into new thread territory as I'm alluding to Faslane, NATO, our geographical location and defense mainly here. Now i'm absolutely not saying we should have nuclear weapons, I'm against them in principle and the cost is almost comical, but Russia is a serious threat through the GIUK Gap, I'd rather avoid any kind of chaos like that on our doorstep so how do we deal with this issue? This should probably be saved for another day as there's so much to talk about on this one subject alone).

We would likely agree on a whole load of things post-indy, and don't get me wrong, there's lots of good things the SNP have done over the years, some of which I've personally benefitted from (free tuition). But they have also had some major failings, one of which has also been to my detriment (Social housing, this is a UK-wide issue but housing is devolved and they have been utterly attrocious on tackling the problem), but no political party will be able to please all of the people all of the time, and no party should expect to be in power for decades at a time unless they have built an absolute paradise or become dictators.

Of course, after independence they would surely be voted in to power again initially and they very well may build the fair and just society that we all want, and then they'd be quite welcome to stay on as long as they like :greengrin

[WeeRussell]

Thanks for the replies.

The bit I struggle with is if you don’t trust the snp to run an independent Scotland why do you trust their view that it’s the best for Scotland. Especially as no other significant party shares the snp view.

I understand why people want away from Westminster and it’s not hard to fathom why.

I’m not the best placed person to answer as I don’t ‘not trust’ the SNP. But I would say I would 100% want scotland to be independent whatever the SNP were saying was for the best. I think your closing line answers your question in a way too.

What do you class as a significant party, and which of those would you genuinely expect to back independence even if they thought it was best for Scotland as a country?

[degenerated]

Thanks for the replies.

The bit I struggle with is if you don’t trust the snp to run an independent Scotland why do you trust their view that it’s the best for Scotland. Especially as no other significant party shares the snp view.

I understand why people want away from Westminster and it’s not hard to fathom why.I don't not trust the SNP to run an independent Scotland but I certainly trust MY view that it's better for Scotland to be an independent country.

You ask why no other significant party thinks it's a good idea but don't acknowledge that the only 2 other significant parties in Scottish politics are merely regional branches of UK parties who have to toe the party line on the constitution. It would be more surprising if they did support Scotland's self determination.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't not trust the SNP to run an independent Scotland but I certainly trust MY view that it's better for Scotland to be an independent country.

You ask why no other significant party thinks it's a good idea but don't acknowledge that the only 2 other significant parties in Scottish politics are merely regional branches of UK parties who have to toe the party line on the constitution. It would be more surprising if they did support Scotland's self determination.

Labour certainly didn’t understand the level of support for Indy within their own party and paid a heavy price. They understand it now but can do nothing about it as the have to take their lead from London.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-david-mcwilliams-podcast/id1462649946?i=1000590602257

Worth a listen for anyone still thinking the UK has a bright future.


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[Skol]

Thank you again, it’s good to hear others opinions and rationale for thinking even if we don’t reach the same conclusion.

[James310]

The Yes lead never lasted long.

https://twitter.com/Savanta_UK/status/1605639244441010176?t=yC5KB89ifSKFqdXNuTh1gw&s=19

[Glory Lurker]

The Yes lead never lasted long.

https://twitter.com/Savanta_UK/status/1605639244441010176?t=yC5KB89ifSKFqdXNuTh1gw&s=19

Booooo.

[Moulin Yarns]

Booooo.

NEW Scottish Westminster VI for @TheScotsman

I wouldn't worry, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell the tories have increased their vote by 4 points 😂


🎗️SNP 43% (-3)
🌹LAB 30% (=)
🌳CON 19% (+4)
🔶LD 6% (-1)
⬜️Other 2% (=)

[He's here!]

NEW Scottish Westminster VI for @TheScotsman

I wouldn't worry, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell the tories have increased their vote by 4 points 😂


🎗️SNP 43% (-3)
🌹LAB 30% (=)
🌳CON 19% (+4)
🔶LD 6% (-1)
⬜️Other 2% (=)

Be interesting to know if this - and the latest independence poll - were impacted by the gender reform debate. If so then the Tory gains - and the decrease in SNP numbers - wouldn't be a major surprise.

[Ozyhibby]

Be interesting to know if this - and the latest independence poll - were impacted by the gender reform debate. If so then the Tory gains - and the decrease in SNP numbers - wouldn't be a major surprise.

My mate works for Yougov and he told me that when it comes to political polling, or any other type for that matter, only Yougov and Ipsos are worth listening to. They had the best methods and most reach throughout the country. Obviously he is biased but I’ve kind of believed him since which is why I didn’t put much faith in the first couple of polls which put yes in front. It wasn’t till ipsos posted that it worth paying attention.


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[Glory Lurker]

Be interesting to know if this - and the latest independence poll - were impacted by the gender reform debate. If so then the Tory gains - and the decrease in SNP numbers - wouldn't be a major surprise.

There is not a chance SNP is losing votes direct to the Tories.

[HerbDailly]

Thanks for the replies.

The bit I struggle with is if you don’t trust the snp to run an independent Scotland why do you trust their view that it’s the best for Scotland. Especially as no other significant party shares the snp view.

I understand why people want away from Westminster and it’s not hard to fathom why.I trust my view that only the people of Scotland should decide Scotland's government.

[Eaststand]

I trust my view that only the people of Scotland should decide Scotland's government.

Well said, and spot on 👍

GGTTH

[Crunchie]

I trust my view that only the people of Scotland should decide Scotland's government.

By the people of Scotland is quite a vague term, do you mean anyone living here at the time of the vote, Scots exiled abroad? etc, etc, etc.

[OldEast]

By the people of Scotland is quite a vague term, do you mean anyone living here at the time of the vote, Scots exiled abroad? etc, etc, etc.

It must be only people living in Scotland

[Moulin Yarns]

By the people of Scotland is quite a vague term, do you mean anyone living here at the time of the vote, Scots exiled abroad? etc, etc, etc.

I don't think Scots have been exiled abroad since Botany Bay.

Unless you mean those who chose to live abroad for work purposes. 😉

[Santa Cruz]

I trust my view that only the people of Scotland should decide Scotland's government.

They have been doing this for over 20 years now. I trust you're view is correct. :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

It must be only people living in Scotland

What about people living abroad but paying their income tax in Scotland?

[OldEast]

What about people living abroad but paying their income tax in Scotland?

What about them?

[Hibrandenburg]

What about them?

Never mind, I think you've already answered my question.

[OldEast]

Never mind, I think you've already answered my question.

Ok instead of getting all uppity tell me why you think someone who has chosen to leave Scotland should have a vote on it's future. Not sure why you're paying Scottish tax if you live abroad. A quick call to the inland revenue will mean you'll pay UK tax at the slightly lower rate.

[WhileTheChief..]

Scots living abroad don’t get a say but someone from any country in the world who happens to be studying here whilst the vote takes place gets to decide on our eternal future!!

[Santa Cruz]

Scots living abroad don’t get a say but someone from any country in the world who happens to be studying here whilst the vote takes place gets to decide on our eternal future!!

That's because they have a home here while studying, so classed as a resident and registered on the electoral register, no?

[Mon Dieu4]

Ok instead of getting all uppity tell me why you think someone who has chosen to leave Scotland should have a vote on it's future. Not sure why you're paying Scottish tax if you live abroad. A quick call to the inland revenue will mean you'll pay UK tax at the slightly lower rate.

Anyone paying tax of any variety in scotland should get to vote regardless of where they stay, they have a right to say how their tax money is spent imo

[OldEast]

Anyone paying tax of any variety in scotland should get to vote regardless of where they stay, they have a right to say how their tax money is spent imo

Fair enough, I see this is going to be a polarised debate. I strongly believe if you've chosen to leave you shouldn't get a vote. I recognise others hold equally strong opposite opinions. I'm not interested in this descending into the usual .net bickering so at this point I'll bow out.

[Santa Cruz]

Fair enough, I see this is going to be a polarised debate. I strongly believe if you've chosen to leave you shouldn't get a vote. I recognise others hold equally strong opposite opinions. I'm not interested in this descending into the usual .net bickering so at this point I'll bow out.

I agree. It's not even a tax issue. If you're resident here presumably you have to spend dosh which contributes to the economy. You're reliant on publc services, so my view would be in that case you should be eligble to vote. Your last sentence is a wise move btw. :aok:

[Jack]

Would it not solve the problem if the wording used was 'ordinarily resident' in Scotland? Length of time to qualify to be determined.

That would include people who are currently working abroad, although based in Scotland and those notionally based in Scotland like those serving in HM Forces and for them in their agencies.

[CropleyWasGod]

Would it not solve the problem if the wording used was 'ordinarily resident' in Scotland? Length of time to qualify to be determined.

That would include people who are currently working abroad, although based in Scotland and those notionally based in Scotland like those serving in HM Forces and for them in their agencies.

I don't think there is a problem. The Electoral Roll is sufficient IMO.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think there is a problem. The Electoral Roll is sufficient IMO.

Yip. There wasn’t a problem last time and there won’t be next time either. You either live here or you don’t.


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[Jones28]

Scots living abroad don’t get a say but someone from any country in the world who happens to be studying here whilst the vote takes place gets to decide on our eternal future!!

If you’ve moved to Spain why should you get a say on the future of a county you no longer reside in?

[J-C]

If you’ve moved to Spain why should you get a say on the future of a county you no longer reside in?

Because they might still have a house/business here, not everyone that moves abroad do so permanently. If they are not registered living here, they won't get a vote.

[Ozyhibby]

Because they might still have a house/business here, not everyone that moves abroad do so permanently. If they are not registered living here, they won't get a vote.

So anyone who can afford property gets a vote? It’s a while since property ownership was important for voting rights.


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[WhileTheChief..]

That's because they have a home here while studying, so classed as a resident and registered on the electoral register, no?

Yeah, but they could well be away within a year or so, like most foreign students are.

On the other hand, someone born and brought up here might be away for work or studying abroad, with full intentions of returning home to live permanently and start a family etc., but can't vote.

Not a big deal, but does seem kinda weird.

[Smartie]

Yeah, but they could well be away within a year or so, like most foreign students are.

On the other hand, someone born and brought up here might be away for work or studying abroad, with full intentions of returning home to live permanently and start a family etc., but can't vote.

Not a big deal, but does seem kinda weird.

I think it's the kind of thing that's impossible to get 100% right so you have to accept that there will be certain situations that we get wrong.

The example you mention - I think it would be harsh, but correct to deny a vote to someone living studying abroad but intending to return, because they might never return. If they've kept on some sort of residency (such as being registered at their parents' address) that sees them stay on the electoral register then fair enough, they get to vote.

The last time we had a referendum I had more of an issue with my mum marching my gran, who didn't have much of a clue what was going on, down to the polling booth to make her vote, essentially giving my mum a second vote. But I probably wouldn't have minded so much if they'd voted the same way that I did.

[J-C]

So anyone who can afford property gets a vote? It’s a while since property ownership was important for voting rights.


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Depends if they still register at a home here,some people do have more than one home.

[Ozyhibby]

Depends if they still register at a home here,some people do have more than one home.

Owning a home here doesn’t give you voting rights. Living here does. Otherwise all sorts of absentee land owners would be claiming voting rights in Scotland.


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[Keith_M]

Owning a home here doesn’t give you voting rights. Living here does. Otherwise all sorts of absentee land owners would be claiming voting rights in Scotland.




...like Donald Trump.

[Hibs90]

My mate works for Yougov and he told me that when it comes to political polling, or any other type for that matter, only Yougov and Ipsos are worth listening to. They had the best methods and most reach throughout the country. Obviously he is biased but I’ve kind of believed him since which is why I didn’t put much faith in the first couple of polls which put yes in front. It wasn’t till ipsos posted that it worth paying attention.


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Have a look at who owns and runs Yougov. https://corporate.yougov.com/about/board-directors/

You won't be surprised.

Roger Parry - Chair - Tory party donor
Stephan Shakespeare - CEO/Founder - Tory candidate for Colchester in 97, Tory party pollster
Nadhim Zahawi - Founder - Enough said

and so on and so forth.

[Ozyhibby]

Have a look at who owns and runs Yougov. https://corporate.yougov.com/about/board-directors/

You won't be surprised.

Roger Parry - Chair - Tory party donor
Stephan Shakespeare - CEO/Founder - Tory candidate for Colchester in 97, Tory party pollster
Nadhim Zahawi - Founder - Enough said

and so on and so forth.

I knew all that.


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[James310]

Have a look at who owns and runs Yougov. https://corporate.yougov.com/about/board-directors/

You won't be surprised.

Roger Parry - Chair - Tory party donor
Stephan Shakespeare - CEO/Founder - Tory candidate for Colchester in 97, Tory party pollster
Nadhim Zahawi - Founder - Enough said

and so on and so forth.

This argument intrigues me, are you saying YouGov deliberately make up the polling numbers or manipulate the numbers to favor the Tory's? If not what's the accusation?

Polling companies are commissioned by organisations to conduct polls on their behalf, they publish all the data of each and every poll they do, if YouGov were making stuff up or changing numbers don't you think people would just stop using them?

[Ozyhibby]

This argument intrigues me, are you saying YouGov deliberately make up the polling numbers or manipulate the numbers to favor the Tory's? If not what's the accusation?

Polling companies are commissioned by organisations to conduct polls on their behalf, they publish all the data of each and every poll they do, if YouGov were making stuff up or changing numbers don't you think people would just stop using them?

And they lose money in political polling. It’s a loss leader for them. They do it to prove how effective they are.


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[Hibs90]

This argument intrigues me, are you saying YouGov deliberately make up the polling numbers or manipulate the numbers to favor the Tory's? If not what's the accusation?

Polling companies are commissioned by organisations to conduct polls on their behalf, they publish all the data of each and every poll they do, if YouGov were making stuff up or changing numbers don't you think people would just stop using them?

Polls are biased.

[James310]

Polls are biased.

So what's the accusation against YouGov? Do they make up or manipulate the numbers to benefit the Tory's?

[J-C]

Owning a home here doesn’t give you voting rights. Living here does. Otherwise all sorts of absentee land owners would be claiming voting rights in Scotland.


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You do realise that it's not illegal to own more than one home, here or abroad, I did say it depends which house they have registered as their main home.

[degenerated]

You do realise that it's not illegal to own more than one home, here or abroad, I did say it depends which house they have registered as their main home.If it's their main home they will be on the electoral register so they will get a vote.

I'm not sure what the issue is hete, we have a precedent for who votes in any referendum already.

[J-C]

If it's their main home they will be on the electoral register so they will get a vote.

I'm not sure what the issue is hete, we have a precedent for who votes in any referendum already.

It started off with someone asking about Scottish people living abroad having a say in any elections. I was trying to point out that although they may live abroad, they could still be registered here.

[degenerated]

It started off with someone asking about Scottish people living abroad having a say in any elections. I was trying to point out that although they may live abroad, they could still be registered here.Cool :greengrin was just confused as I thought the franchise last time round was pretty fair.

[HerbDailly]

By the people of Scotland is quite a vague term, do you mean anyone living here at the time of the vote, Scots exiled abroad? etc, etc, etc.The electorate

[Glory Lurker]

If you've gone, you've gone. If I leave Fife a year before an election can I still vote there because it was where I was born?

[Hibrandenburg]

If you've gone, you've gone. If I leave Fife a year before an election can I still vote there because it was where I was born?

Yes you can.

[Hibs90]

So what's the accusation against YouGov? Do they make up or manipulate the numbers to benefit the Tory's?

I'll answer you when you answer my question from a few weeks back. :aok:

[James310]

I'll answer you when you answer my question from a few weeks back. :aok:

Don't know what it was, but it's fine just leave it.

[Glory Lurker]

Yes you can.

Should have made it two years then!

[Hibrandenburg]

Should have made it two years then!

You can still vote up to 15 years after moving abroad.

[Glory Lurker]

You can still vote up to 15 years after moving abroad.

Is that not in UK general elections? It's a travesty.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/tory-mp-michael-fabricant-says-rishi-sunaks-opposition-to-scotland-gender-bill-could-be-a-political-trap-3967042


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[grunt]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/tory-mp-michael-fabricant-says-rishi-sunaks-opposition-to-scotland-gender-bill-could-be-a-political-trap-3967042
Someone wrote that for him.

[Skol]

Even the tories are embarrassed by Fabricant. However for once there is truth in what he says.

[Keith_M]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/tory-mp-michael-fabricant-says-rishi-sunaks-opposition-to-scotland-gender-bill-could-be-a-political-trap-3967042


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"An own goal for the #Unionists."



That's an interesting term he decided to use.

:hmmm:

[Hibrandenburg]

"An own goal for the #Unionists."



That's an interesting term he decided to use.

:hmmm:

I think it's only forbidden on here to apply that particular term to those in favour of the Union over independence.

[Just Alf]

I think it's only forbidden on here to apply that particular term to those in favour of the Union over independence.True.... bbc, chan 4 etc etc use the term

[WhileTheChief..]

The issue wasn't with the term Unionist, it was when you all wanted to start using the term British Nationalist to describe anyone that voted No to Indy.

Good on you for bringing the subject up again though. Got to keep these divisions in our society as strong as possible.

[Skol]

:thumbsup:
The issue wasn't with the term Unionist, it was when you all wanted to start using the term British Nationalist to describe anyone that voted No to Indy.

Good on you for bringing the subject up again though. Got to keep these divisions in our society as strong as possible.

[grunt]

Good on you for bringing the subject up again though. Got to keep these divisions in our society as strong as possible.
Does the division go away if we don't talk about it?

[Skol]

Does the division go away if we don't talk about it?

I don’t think it was ever suggested that we don’t talk about independence, but rather we talk about it in a civilised manner without resorting to name calling.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don’t think it was ever suggested that we don’t talk about independence, but rather we talk about it in a civilised manner without resorting to name calling.

Name calling or calling a spade a spade?

[HNA12]

I think it's only forbidden on here to apply that particular term to those in favour of the Union over independence.


Name calling or calling a spade a spade?


Please drop the snidey wee digs. No need.

[Hibrandenburg]

Please drop the snidey wee digs. No need.

HNA12, I respect the job you guys do on here, but with all due respect I feel you guys got this wrong and right. I admit to being severely pissed off when the thread got closed because some people (apparently on both sides of the debate) took offence at being called that what they profess to support and felt the only way to vent my annoyance was snidey wee digs. If we can't refer to those who support the Union as Unionists or those who support an independent Scottish nation as Nationalists without having to censor debate then that's a sad state of affairs imo. I realise this is primarily a football forum but it is also much more than that, it's also a great source of information and public debate where people get to exchange views outside the usual social media echo chamber, it would be sad if that was stopped because some people object to being referred to as that what they represent. If I now get a yellow or red card then so be it, it's your forum and you should moderate it how you see fit. Like I said you guys do a great and mostly unappreciated job, I just think you got it wrong on this occasion.

[ronaldo7]

The issue wasn't with the term Unionist, it was when you all wanted to start using the term British Nationalist to describe anyone that voted No to Indy.

Good on you for bringing the subject up again though. Got to keep these divisions in our society as strong as possible.

Are you the only one who's allowed to use the term British nationalist?

[Glory Lurker]

Vote Admins! I wouldn't put up with us either.

[Ozyhibby]

HNA12, I respect the job you guys do on here, but with all due respect I feel you guys got this wrong and right. I admit to being severely pissed off when the thread got closed because some people (apparently on both sides of the debate) took offence at being called that what they profess to support and felt the only way to vent my annoyance was snidey wee digs. If we can't refer to those who support the Union as Unionists or those who support an independent Scottish nation as Nationalists without having to censor debate then that's a sad state of affairs imo. I realise this is primarily a football forum but it is also much more than that, it's also a great source of information and public debate where people get to exchange views outside the usual social media echo chamber, it would be sad if that was stopped because some people object to being referred to as that what they represent. If I now get a yellow or red card then so be it, it's your forum and you should moderate it how you see fit. Like I said you guys do a great and mostly unappreciated job, I just think you got it wrong on this occasion.

Anyone who doesn’t recognise an element of British nationalism seeping into the public discourse among unionist politicians in the last few years just isn’t being honest.
However, I’m willing to not use the term so long as the nationalist or separatist term is dropped in when it comes to Yes voters.
I recognise the truth in those terms but I think it’s only fair that if we are to bring about a level of respect then it works both ways.
I have not used it since the thread has closed and I’ve tried to ignore breaches from the No camp.
Let’s hope things improve.


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[Eaststand]

HNA12, I respect the job you guys do on here, but with all due respect I feel you guys got this wrong and right. I admit to being severely pissed off when the thread got closed because some people (apparently on both sides of the debate) took offence at being called that what they profess to support and felt the only way to vent my annoyance was snidey wee digs. If we can't refer to those who support the Union as Unionists or those who support an independent Scottish nation as Nationalists without having to censor debate then that's a sad state of affairs imo. I realise this is primarily a football forum but it is also much more than that, it's also a great source of information and public debate where people get to exchange views outside the usual social media echo chamber, it would be sad if that was stopped because some people object to being referred to as that what they represent. If I now get a yellow or red card then so be it, it's your forum and you should moderate it how you see fit. Like I said you guys do a great and mostly unappreciated job, I just think you got it wrong on this occasion.

This is a very sensible post, well said sir 👍

GGTTH

[Stairway 2 7]

Admins are off their head putting up with people questioning their right to a chilled out time. Its a hibs forum and people are arguing for their right to call people something that the people don't want to be called.

[WhileTheChief..]

Are you the only one who's allowed to use the term British nationalist?

Strange question.

I don't understand? I'm no different to any other poster on here, the rules apply equally to me as to anyone else.

I'm not wanting to use the term at all.

So, what is it you're asking me? Or are you simply trying to have a dig for reasons unknown to me? :confused:

[Skol]

Anyone who doesn’t recognise an element of British nationalism seeping into the public discourse among unionist politicians in the last few years just isn’t being honest.
However, I’m willing to not use the term so long as the nationalist or separatist term is dropped in when it comes to Yes voters.
I recognise the truth in those terms but I think it’s only fair that if we are to bring about a level of respect then it works both ways.
I have not used it since the thread has closed and I’ve tried to ignore breaches from the No camp.
Let’s hope things improve.


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I am not sure what you mean by your first paragraph. If you mean boris et all being on telly with union jacks while telling lies then I agree. But I don’t see it when people are talking about independence. Some of the Scottish tories could be described as such, but I don’t see it any wider than that.

It is funny how we see things differently almost everywhere. As an example I don’t believe I have seen any breaches by no voters since the thread was closed although there may well have been some. I do recall that almost as soon as the thread was reopened you were asking for clarity on which terms you were allowed to use.

[WhileTheChief..]

HNA12, I respect the job you guys do on here, but with all due respect I feel you guys got this wrong and right. I admit to being severely pissed off when the thread got closed because some people (apparently on both sides of the debate) took offence at being called that what they profess to support and felt the only way to vent my annoyance was snidey wee digs. If we can't refer to those who support the Union as Unionists or those who support an independent Scottish nation as Nationalists without having to censor debate then that's a sad state of affairs imo. I realise this is primarily a football forum but it is also much more than that, it's also a great source of information and public debate where people get to exchange views outside the usual social media echo chamber, it would be sad if that was stopped because some people object to being referred to as that what they represent. If I now get a yellow or red card then so be it, it's your forum and you should moderate it how you see fit. Like I said you guys do a great and mostly unappreciated job, I just think you got it wrong on this occasion.

You've missed the point.

If you want to call me a Unionist for voting No, that's fine by me.

I have a huge problem if you want to call me a British Nationalist for doing so though, and will strongly object to that.

I'm sure you see the difference and can understand why.

It's only been very recently that that term has been used to describe anyone in this debate, despite the thread running for years.

[JeMeSouviens]

You've missed the point.

If you want to call me a Unionist for voting No, that's fine by me.

I have a huge problem if you want to call me a British Nationalist for doing so though, and will strongly object to that.

I'm sure you see the difference and can understand why.

It's only been very recently that that term has been used to describe anyone in this debate, despite the thread running for years.

I agree it is unfair to tar all No voters with that brush and tbh, I can't remember the context of how this came up, but you surely wouldn't deny that British Nationalism exists and is present among a segment of No voters? I think it's also undeniably the prevailing identity in today's Tory party and, albeit in a pretendy fashion that makes them look stupidly phony imo, the current Labour leadership.

Denying that would be as pointless as me denying there is a segment of Yes voters that are old school blood and soil Scottish exceptionalists.

[HNA12]

I agree it is unfair to tar all No voters with that brush .

All that needs to be said really. Yet we had a poster coming on last night to do just that after the topic had been raised plainly in order to stir the pot further.
We aren’t going to specify which terms are and aren’t acceptable. All we ask is that you treat each other with respect as most do on here.

[ronaldo7]

All that needs to be said really. Yet we had a poster coming on last night to do just that after the topic had been raised plainly in order to stir the pot further.
We aren’t going to specify which terms are and aren’t acceptable. All we ask is that you treat each other with respect as most do on here.

If you're referencing me here. That's not what I said.

I said British nationalist voted no. Not all no voters were British nationalists. Theirs a difference, just like the reason you gave for the removal of the post which changed overnight.

I'll let you get on with it now though.

Have a happy New Year.

[James310]

A quote from Elif Shafak:

"People like to think that their nationalism is not as ugly as someone else's nationalism. That their nationalism is actually the right type of nationalism, that it's a civilised nationalism and I don't believe in that. I think the core of nationalism is quite ugly, it is divisive and based on a distinction between "us" versus "them" and the assumption that somehow "us" is better than "them".

[Ozyhibby]

A quote from Elif Shafak:

"People like to think that their nationalism is not as ugly as someone else's nationalism. That their nationalism is actually the right type of nationalism, that it's a civilised nationalism and I don't believe in that. I think the core of nationalism is quite ugly, it is divisive and based on a distinction between "us" versus "them" and the assumption that somehow "us" is better than "them".

It’s a fair point and I think we can all agree we are dealing with nationalism on both sides here.


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[JeMeSouviens]

It’s a fair point and I think we can all agree we are dealing with nationalism on both sides here.


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:agree:

Even a broken cut'n'paste machine is right twice a year (or something like that). :greengrin

We should all be able to agree that anyone who thinks there's anything exceptional about Scots people is just as deluded as anyone who thinks there's anything exceptional about British people. Having done that, we can move on to what's the best constitutional setup to give people who live in Scotland the agency to make it the best it can be?

[James310]

:agree:

Even a broken cut'n'paste machine is right twice a year (or something like that). :greengrin

We should all be able to agree that anyone who thinks there's anything exceptional about Scots people is just as deluded as anyone who thinks there's anything exceptional about British people. Having done that, we can move on to what's the best constitutional setup to give people who live in Scotland the agency to make it the best it can be?

What do you mean with your first comment? (You are like the boy that punches you from behind and runs away)

[Skol]

It’s a fair point and I think we can all agree we are dealing with nationalism on both sides here.


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I don’t agree with nationalism being on both sides . Certainly not for me although I accept there are some who are.

I think it is too simplistic to paint it this way.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don’t agree with nationalism being on both sides . Certainly not for me although I accept there are some who are.

I think it is too simplistic to paint it this way.

I don't think anyone's saying either that all Yes voters are Scottish nationalists or all No voters are British nationalists. I think it's pretty clear both camps contain those subsets though.

Anyway, it is possible to be both a Scottish nationalist, in the sense that one believes there is something exceptional about Scottish people, and also be a unionist, ie. believe Scotland's best interests are served by being a sub-national part of the UK. Such people do exist, I've even met some.

[Skol]

I was with you until I got to the I.E. and disagreed from there.

[JeMeSouviens]

I was with you until I got to the I.E. and disagreed from there.

Disagreed how?

[Skol]

It was an Unnecessary dig in my view

[JeMeSouviens]

It was an Unnecessary dig in my view

You've lost me?

[Skol]

Read it again then. Sub National. !!! It’s all about creating division

[James310]

Read it again then. Sub National. !!! It’s all about creating division

Creating "them" and "us", that's what it's about (for some)

There was a great quote from Obama along the lines of if you have to divide us to win, if you do win you will never unite us.

Found it.

"What we can't have is the same old politics of division that we have seen so many times before, that dates back centuries," Obama said at the event in Newark for Phil Murphy.

"If you have to win a campaign by dividing people, you're not going to be able to govern them. You won't be able to unite them later," Obama said.

[JeMeSouviens]

Read it again then. Sub National. !!! It’s all about creating division

Oh, ok. I didn't mean anything pejorative by that, just the current devolution setup. It's a pretty commonly used term - https://blogs.worldbank.org/governance/what-are-we-talking-about-when-we-talk-about-subnational-governments

[Moulin Yarns]

"identity is invisible as well as visible, and it can be what you hold to your heart...in this complicated Web we find out who and what we are, and what makes us who we are." Amanda Thomson.

We can see ourselves as scottish, British or both.

[Zambernardi1875]

"identity is invisible as well as visible, and it can be what you hold to your heart...in this complicated Web we find out who and what we are, and what makes us who we are." Amanda Thomson.

We can see ourselves as scottish, British or both.

You can be British and pretend to Scottish you won’t be Scottish and British also

[marinello59]

You can be British and pretend to Scottish you won’t be Scottish and British also

I’m happy to identify as Scottish, British and European. I’ll add pretend Scot to the list as well. :greengrin

[J-C]

You can be British and pretend to Scottish you won’t be Scottish and British also


I am Scottish and don't feel British any longer, I don't see Scottish as having to be born here but anyone who lives here that identifies with the Scottish psyche and wants Scotland to be the best it can be as an independent country.

[danhibees1875]

I am Scottish and don't feel British any longer, I don't see Scottish as having to be born here but anyone who lives here that identifies with the Scottish psyche and wants Scotland to be the best it can be as an independent country.

So you're only Scottish if you want Scotland to be an independent country in your eyes? :faf:

[CropleyWasGod]

You can be British and pretend to Scottish you won’t be Scottish and British also

Why not?

[James310]

I am Scottish and don't feel British any longer, I don't see Scottish as having to be born here but anyone who lives here that identifies with the Scottish psyche and wants Scotland to be the best it can be as an independent country.

So someone born in Scotland and lived here all their life and pays taxes etc but happens to have a different opinion and is against Independence isn't Scottish? Really?

[Zambernardi1875]

So someone born in Scotland and lived here all their life and pays taxes etc but happens to have a different opinion and is against Independence isn't Scottish? Really?

Yes, exactly

[CropleyWasGod]

Yes, exactly

Take us through that 😀

[James310]

Yes, exactly

That's a very extremist view and I would suggest be supported by only a very few (I would hope)

I wonder if fellow Independence supporters think you help the Indy cause with such extreme views. Can't imagine they help.

So actually I am quite happy many on the Yes side have these views, I am confident that as long as they prevail they will continue to put off the very people you need to persuade, the ones who are not sure and undecided, they will look at that view and think that's not for me.

[danhibees1875]

Take us through that 😀

Good luck with that. :greengrin

[Zambernardi1875]

Take us through that 😀

They don’t consider Scotland a country, might as well add your street name, area code, the World and galaxies as the list of names you are. Saying I’m Scottish British and European bizarre

[Zambernardi1875]

That's a very extremist view and I would suggest be supported by only a very few (I would hope)

I wonder if fellow Independence supporters think you help the Indy cause with such extreme views. Can't imagine they help.

So actually I am quite happy many on the Yes side have these views, I am confident that as long as they prevail they will continue to put off the very people you need to persuade, the ones who are not sure and undecided, they will look at that view and think that's not for me.

Easy to throw out the extremist line, it’s what people do when they can’t handle the truth. If you’re not for Scottish independence you can’t be Scottish pretty simple

[CropleyWasGod]

They don’t consider Scotland a country, might as well add your street name, area code, the World and galaxies as the list of names you are. Saying I’m Scottish British and European bizarre

In your view.

There are plenty who would consider your view bizarre.

[Just Alf]

You can be British and pretend to Scottish you won’t be Scottish and British also




I am Scottish and don't feel British any longer,
I don't see Scottish as having to be born here but anyone who lives here that identifies with the Scottish psyche and wants Scotland to be the best it can be as an independent country.

I agree with this.

I started off life as firmly British but over the years with everything 'Britain' has done both on the world stage and increasingly at home being British has faded away significantly. Scottish is anyone that feels Scottish to whatever degree they feel it and however they vote eve if they also feel British or European (I went out my way to make sure my daughters English boyfriend got registered to vote at our address when he 1st moved up even though he was a firm union voter).


And following on from that, on your 2nd point I totally agree that anyone from anywhere can become Scottish if they move here and that's how they want to identify as.


Edit: I see the usual suspects have deliberately misconstrued your post so they can pick a fight.
Can't imagine how they'll ever get those wavering or soft Indy supporters on to the no side with that tactic

[The Modfather]

Folk just enjoy bickering and point scoring don’t they, the subject of independence is as an aside.

[Just Alf]

Am I a "usual suspect" ? [emoji3]You're ALWAYS a suspect CWG! :rofl:

[CropleyWasGod]

You're ALWAYS a suspect CWG! :rofl:

Damn...didn't delete it quickly enough !



Happy to have my street cred enhanced though..

[James310]

I agree with this.

I started off life as firmly British but over the years with everything 'Britain' has done both on the world stage and increasingly at home being British has faded away significantly. Scottish is anyone that feels Scottish to whatever degree they feel it and however they vote eve if they also feel British or European (I went out my way to make sure my daughters English boyfriend got registered to vote at our address when he 1st moved up even though he was a firm union voter).


And following on from that, on your 2nd point I totally agree that anyone from anywhere can become Scottish if they move here and that's how they want to identify as.


Edit: I see the usual suspects have deliberately misconstrued your post so they can pick a fight.
Can't imagine how they'll ever get those wavering or soft Indy supporters on to the no side with that tactic

What by saying that you are only Scottish if you support Indy? That's what a poster is saying.

You think that's not a bizarre or extreme view?

I would even suggest the majority of Indy supporters on here would agree with me that's a bizarre or extreme view.

[danhibees1875]

I agree with this.


Edit: I see the usual suspects have deliberately misconstrued your post so they can pick a fight.
Can't imagine how they'll ever get those wavering or soft Indy supporters on to the no side with that tactic


Are you sure you haven't misunderstood the two posters you're quoting? :dunno:

You don't seem to agree with their point given you state the exact opposite:

"Scottish is anyone that feels Scottish to whatever degree they feel it and however they vote eve if they also feel British or European"

[Ozyhibby]

Your Scottish if you feel Scottish and want to be Scottish. I guess it help if you have lived here or have a family connection.
I’m not into putting up barriers to anyone who wants to be Scottish.


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[marinello59]

Folk just enjoy bickering and point scoring don’t they, the subject of independence is as an aside.

No we don’t!
1-0 to me I think .

[James310]

Your Scottish if you feel Scottish and want to be Scottish. I guess it help if you have lived here or have a family connection.
I’m not into putting up barriers to anyone who wants to be Scottish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would agree with this, it should have nothing to do if you support Independence or not.

[marinello59]

They don’t consider Scotland a country, might as well add your street name, area code, the World and galaxies as the list of names you are. Saying I’m Scottish British and European bizarre

I’ve never been called bizarre before. Another one ticked off my list. :greengrin

[J-C]

What by saying that you are only Scottish if you support Indy? That's what a poster is saying.

You think that's not a bizarre or extreme view?

I would even suggest the majority of Indy supporters on here would agree with me that's a bizarre or extreme view.

Wanting what's best for Scotland and in my view and many many more, independence is what is best for Scotland.

[CropleyWasGod]

No we don’t!
1-0 to me I think .

Yes we do.

Stitch that.

[J-C]

Are you sure you haven't misunderstood the two posters you're quoting? :dunno:

You don't seem to agree with their point given you state the exact opposite:

"Scottish is anyone that feels Scottish to whatever degree they feel it and however they vote eve if they also feel British or European"

Here's a question, you go on holiday and someone from the country you're in asks you if you're English, what do you reply. No I'm British or no I'm Scottish.

[James310]

Wanting what's best for Scotland and in my view and many many more, independence is what is best for Scotland.

But you can still be Scottish and not support Independence?

[Bostonhibby]

In your view.

There are plenty who would consider your view bizarre.As a Scottish born person who has spent a long time in the English part of Britain I can honestly say until recently I was ambivalent to the British part, probably leaning towards it being an okay collective umbrella for all the good people I've met from all over the country.

I've always felt British and Scottish but proud to be, and a lot more passionate about Scotland and more interested in its history, people and traditions.

What I have found in recent years is a surge in English born people who see where they were born as somehow making them more British or of some sort of higher "caste". They have difficulty distinguishing their part from the whole (no pun intended).

In most cases I don't get involved in debating the issue much but occasionally some have difficulty with the fact that for a Scot, being British isn't the only default position - whilst seemingly proud of their own English / British duality.

I think knowing what you are in the current inward looking version of Britain, particularly in the South, and being confident in it is the way to avoid the nastier side of some of the more aggressive forms of nationalism promoted by the current UK government, but I probably digress here......

As a Scottish UK citizen with no skin in the independence game and not a natural SNP supporter I am pretty sure independence is coming one way or the other, and as an alternative to the drift to the nastier side of conservatism I think it's a good thing for Scotland, certainly less of a leap of faith based on not very much than Brexit was.



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[J-C]

But you can still be Scottish and not support Independence?

My intension wasn't to cause division as that's plainly there, it was my ideology of what Scottish should be, the people of the country wanting the best for ourselves, my opinion is independence is our best bet.

[James310]

My intension wasn't to cause division as that's plainly there, it was my ideology if what Scottush should be, the people of the country wanting the best for ourselves, my opinion is independence is our best bet.

Was that a yes or no? Can you be Scottish and not support Independence?

[J-C]

Was that a yes or no? Can you be Scottish and not support Independence?

Read the 1st line of my reply, division is already there. Yes but by voting a no, are you doing what's best for the Scottish people, IMO you are not and that is what this debate is about.

[James310]

Read the 1st line of my reply, division is already there. Yes but by voting a no, are you doing what's best for the Scottish people, IMO you are not and that is what this debate is about.

I guess a lot of people would disagree, they can be Scottish and have a different opinion to you on Independence. It doesn't make them less or more Scottish IMO.

[He's here!]

Easy to throw out the extremist line, it’s what people do when they can’t handle the truth. If you’re not for Scottish independence you can’t be Scottish pretty simple

On that basis around half the electorate in Scotland aren't Scottish.

[Zambernardi1875]

I guess a lot of people would disagree, they can be Scottish and have a different opinion to you on Independence. It doesn't make them less or more Scottish IMO.

You can’t say you’re Scottish and also not consider Scotland a country.

[Ozyhibby]

But you can still be Scottish and not support Independence?

Of course you can. That only makes you daft.[emoji6]


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[Ozyhibby]

I guess a lot of people would disagree, they can be Scottish and have a different opinion to you on Independence. It doesn't make them less or more Scottish IMO.

I agree with James. Now I need a stiff drink.


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[James310]

You can’t say you’re Scottish and also not consider Scotland a country.

You think half the population of Scotland aren't Scottish, you don't think that's an odd view?

[James310]

I agree with James. Now I need a stiff drink.


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And I agreed with you, doubles all round.

[CropleyWasGod]

You can’t say you’re Scottish and also not consider Scotland a country.

Yes you can.

Budge over, James. I'm sitting with you on this.

Ffs 😀

[danhibees1875]

Here's a question, you go on holiday and someone from the country you're in asks you if you're English, what do you reply. No I'm British or no I'm Scottish.

I'd say that I was Scottish.

I'm still confused as to whether you agree with the other people you quoted, or with yourself. :greengrin (Edit: ignore that - got you confused with Just Alf).

[Bostonhibby]

And I agreed with you, doubles all round.Count me in, where do I collect?[emoji6]

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[James310]

Count me in, where do I collect?[emoji6]

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Catch me at the Murrayfield Bar around 1200, I will be the one wearing the Union Jack suit and singing God Save the King.

[CropleyWasGod]

Count me in, where do I collect?[emoji6]

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In the spirit of the Carry On season, I reckon we all need a stiff one.

[Just Alf]

I would agree with this, it should have nothing to do if you support Independence or not.Which is what the poster is alluding too.... he takes it further by effectively saying you don't have to be born here to be Scottish.

[James310]

Which is what the poster is alluding too.... he takes it further by effectively saying you don't have to be born here to be Scottish.

I genuinely think you are reading this wrong.

One poster is saying you have to support Scottish Independence to be more Scottish, and another poster is saying you aren't Scottish even if you are born here, live here and pay taxes etc because you don't support Independence.

[Just Alf]

I'd say that I was Scottish.

I'm still confused as to whether you agree with the other people you quoted, or with yourself. :greengrin (Edit: ignore that - got you confused with Just Alf).Ha ha now I'm confused!

For my sanity

You.can feel Scottish no matter what you vote.


And

You.can feel Scottish even if you weren't born here but that's how you want to be.


I took it that HC was saying that last part but somehow that also meant in some folks reading of it that you also had to support indy which I couldn't see in his post.

PS... that's my reading of that particular post, he may well have stated that view in other posts of course!

[Skol]

I am pretty sure zambernardi previously stated that if you have ever voted Tory you should be denied healthcare by the nhs.

Any views expressed by such an individual are best filed with farage and trump in the bin

[Just Alf]

I genuinely think you are reading this wrong.

One poster is saying you have to support Scottish Independence to be more Scottish, and another poster is saying you aren't Scottish even if you are born here, live here and pay taxes etc because you don't support Independence.May well be!.. see my post above... that's my take :greengrin

[J-C]

You think half the population of Scotland aren't Scottish, you don't think that's an odd view?


No one is saying they're not Scottish, jeez man you're like a dug wae a bone, the people who want independence which we think will be better for Scotland, can't understand why you lot are happy to be dictated and governed over by another country, that is unless you think Britain is seen as one country and not a group of countries in a so called union.

[James310]

No one is saying they're not Scottish, jeez man you're like a dug wae a bone, the people who want independence which we think will be better for Scotland, can't understand why you lot are happy to be dictated and governed over by another country, that is unless you think Britain is seen as one country and not a group of countries in a so called union.

You want to check Zambernani1875 post's again? That's exactly what he/she did say, they are not Scottish.

I make no apologies for challenging such views, and it looks like the majority on here agree with me

[Skol]

No one is saying they're not Scottish, jeez man you're like a dug wae a bone, the people who want independence which we think will be better for Scotland, can't understand why you lot are happy to be dictated and governed over by another country, that is unless you think Britain is seen as one country and not a group of countries in a so called union.

Personally I don’t see us being dictated and governed by another country. We form part of that government.

I do see us as a separate nation and class myself as Scottish. I get frustrated when online forms force me to choose British.

I just happen to hold an opposite view. Yes Scotland could be independent and there would be some clear benefits to that. However there would also be implications and for me those currently outweigh the positives.

[J-C]

I'd say that I was Scottish.

I'm still confused as to whether you agree with the other people you quoted, or with yourself. :greengrin (Edit: ignore that - got you confused with Just Alf).


Thanks for that answer, the point of the question was to gauge what would be your response, I'd always think of myself as Scottish first and foremost and then British. Over the past 30 odd years I've began to feel less and less British and a lot more Scottish and having an independence party at the fore front of the political scene up here has made me more aware of what I want for Scotland and it's people. These people do not need to have been born here but have the same wish that Scotland becomes the best country it can be, some will want independence and some not, I can live with that even though I disagree with them.

[J-C]

Personally I don’t see us being dictated and governed by another country. We form part of that government.

I do see us as a separate nation and class myself as Scottish. I get frustrated when online forms force me to choose British.

I just happen to hold an opposite view. Yes Scotland could be independent and there would be some clear benefits to that. However there would also be implications and for me those currently outweigh the positives.


I get totally where you're coming from and I have a feeling you may actually be a floating voter who may vote yes if the argument for independence was strong enough. That's obviously up to the independence parties to argue a strong case.

[J-C]

You want to check Zambernani1875 post's again? That's exactly what he/she did say, they are not Scottish.

I make no apologies for challenging such views, and it looks like the majority on here agree with me

But I'm not Zambernani1875, so why do you keep asking me the same question, surely ask him.

[James310]

But I'm not Zambernani1875, so why do you keep asking me the same question, surely ask him.

You said nobody was saying people born in Scotland and living in Scotland weren't Scottish, I was pointing out that's exactly what someone was saying.

I assume you disagree with that view?

[danhibees1875]

No one is saying they're not Scottish, jeez man you're like a dug wae a bone, the people who want independence which we think will be better for Scotland, can't understand why you lot are happy to be dictated and governed over by another country, that is unless you think Britain is seen as one country and not a group of countries in a so called union.

Is that not what you were saying when you said:

"I don't see Scottish as having to be born here but anyone who lives here that identifies with the Scottish psyche and wants Scotland to be the best it can be as an independent country."

[J-C]

I am Scottish and don't feel British any longer, I don't see Scottish as having to be born here but anyone who lives here that identifies with the Scottish psyche and wants Scotland to be the best it can be as an independent country.


You said nobody was saying people born in Scotland and living in Scotland weren't Scottish, I was pointing out that's exactly what someone was saying.

I assume you disagree with that view?


See above.

[Bostonhibby]

In the spirit of the Carry On season, I reckon we all need a stiff one.[emoji16]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221231/d377917692c23fda4411a182475edb33.jpg

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[J-C]

Is that not what you were saying when you said:

"I don't see Scottish as having to be born here but anyone who lives here that identifies with the Scottish psyche and wants Scotland to be the best it can be as an independent country."


We have multiple nationalities residing in Scotland, are these people any less Scottish? No they're not. Many of these people now call Scotland their home and also many of them want independence for Scotland. This as you know is a very complicated argument and as we've seen splits the country at times. My views are simple that we need independence to be a better country and anyone no matter who or where they originally come from are part of this proud country, so even though you were not born a Scot, you can still want independence because you now identify as a Scot.

[Zambernardi1875]

I am pretty sure zambernardi previously stated that if you have ever voted Tory you should be denied healthcare by the nhs.

Any views expressed by such an individual are best filed with farage and trump in the bin

Total lies

[Zambernardi1875]

You said nobody was saying people born in Scotland and living in Scotland weren't Scottish, I was pointing out that's exactly what someone was saying.

I assume you disagree with that view?

How can you think you’re Scottish but not consider Scotland a country?

[danhibees1875]

We have multiple nationalities residing in Scotland, are these people any less Scottish? No they're not. Many of these people now call Scotland their home and also many of them want independence for Scotland. This as you know is a very complicated argument and as we've seen splits the country at times. My views are simple that we need independence to be a better country and anyone no matter who or where they originally come from are part of this proud country, so even though you were not born a Scot, you can still want independence because you now identify as a Scot.

I think we're talking at cross purposes. :aok:

What you originally said suggested to me that to be Scottish you had to want an independent Scotland.

I agree that anyone can claim to be Scottish if they wish... apart from those Americans who claim it because they have a great uncle who came from the island of Fife.

[J-C]

I think we're talking at cross purposes. :aok:

What you originally said suggested to me that to be Scottish you had to want an independent Scotland.

I agree that anyone can claim to be Scottish if they wish... apart from those Americans who claim it because they have a great uncle who came from the island of Fife.


Probably didn't put it across clearly enough, what I meant was there's more to being Scottish than just being born here, it's a mind set.

[danhibees1875]

Probably didn't put it across clearly enough, what I meant was there's more to being Scottish than just being born here, it's a mind set.

Aye, you have to have your mind set on independence. :wink:

[James310]

Probably didn't put it across clearly enough, what I meant was there's more to being Scottish than just being born here, it's a mind set.

This still suggests the mindset of supporting Independence makes you more Scottish than someone who doesn't. I don't think what way you vote should make anyone more or less Scottish.

[J-C]

This still suggests the mindset of supporting Independence makes you more Scottish than someone who doesn't. I don't think what way you vote should make anyone more or less Scottish.


No it's a mind set to know what being Scottish is all about, nothing to do with voting yes or no, it's about understanding who we are as a people. I meet people all the time in my job and the huge majority who abide here and are from abroad love Scotland and the Scottish people due to us being so welcoming, it's one of the main reasons they decided to stay.

[James310]

No it's a mind set to know what being Scottish is all about, nothing to do with voting yes or no, it's about understanding who we are as a people. I meet people all the time in my job and the huge majority who abide here and are from abroad love Scotland and the Scottish people due to us being so welcoming, it's one of the main reasons they decided to stay.

Ok, that's pretty clear. You can probably see the confusion when you originally said being Scottish was "anyone who lives here that identifies with the Scottish psyche and wants Scotland to be the best it can be as an independent country" but now you are saying it's nothing to do with Independence. A bit confusing.

[J-C]

Ok, that's pretty clear. You can probably see the confusion when you originally said being Scottish was "anyone who lives here that identifies with the Scottish psyche and wants Scotland to be the best it can be as an independent country" but now you are saying it's nothing to do with Independence. A bit confusing.
👍

[Moulin Yarns]

"identity is invisible as well as visible, and it can be what you hold to your heart...in this complicated Web we find out who and what we are, and what makes us who we are." Amanda Thomson.

We can see ourselves as scottish, British or both.

My giddy aunt!! I posted this last night, a quote from a gay woman of mixed race from Kilsyth, that I thought at the time would explain that you can call yourself scottish, British, whatever, it is what you feel in your heart that counts, and it appears to have exploded.

Sorry, I didn't expect that.

[Skol]

I’d go a step further and if you’re voting tory in Scotland you shouldn’t be allowed all the benefits living here gives you. No free prescription, bus pass, free education etc etc.

Apologies, you didn’t say Tory voters should be denied nhs treatment. Just free prescriptions, bus pass, education etc etc.

[grunt]

And people said the SNP thread was confusing? :confused:

[OldEast]

Christ almighty can people not just ignore a post and move on if they don't agree with something. This is possibly the most boring, pathetic, point scoring thread on the ****ing internet. Yes I know I could just ignore it but you lot need told.

[cabbageandribs1875]

surely not, we're far too small and too wee, why won't everyone realise this

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/321853216_927170694876305_8772065837946272262_n.jp g?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=8DvJYZI2VPAAX8EnvQ6&tn=oRK5qAGe-9s67qfL&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfDIs2qAZhJahhZ0dxTrUIKkcJW-vhFvLq2K9EKZtZ2JUg&oe=63B56F17

[Ozyhibby]

Christ almighty can people not just ignore a post and move on if they don't agree with something. This is possibly the most boring, pathetic, point scoring thread on the ****ing internet. Yes I know I could just ignore it but you lot need told.

[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]


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[degenerated]

surely not, we're far too small and too wee, why won't everyone realise this

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/321853216_927170694876305_8772065837946272262_n.jp g?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=8DvJYZI2VPAAX8EnvQ6&tn=oRK5qAGe-9s67qfL&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfDIs2qAZhJahhZ0dxTrUIKkcJW-vhFvLq2K9EKZtZ2JUg&oe=63B56F17We need the broad shoulders of the union to protect it though.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1706703/Scotland-army-nicola-Sturgeon-scottish-independence-referendum/amp


26357

[Jack]

We need the broad shoulders of the union to protect it though.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1706703/Scotland-army-nicola-Sturgeon-scottish-independence-referendum/amp


26357

Isn't that the same for everything?

Westminster control everything lock, stock and barrel. It's only because they are so benevolent the devolved nations get a wee shot in a limited number of areas.

[danhibees1875]

Christ almighty can people not just ignore a post and move on if they don't agree with something. This is possibly the most boring, pathetic, point scoring thread on the ****ing internet. Yes I know I could just ignore it but you lot need told.

Indeed, a forum is no place for discussion. :wink:

[Keith_M]

Indeed, a forum is no place for discussion. :wink:


TBF, I get his point, it does get a bit nasty on here.

[James310]

TBF, I get his point, it does get a bit nasty on here.

It was one of the very few times both Yes and No supporters agreed on something. Views such as the ones expressed should be challenged.

[grunt]

"Independence would create a huge divide between England and Scotland"

Strangely this BBC Europe story isn't being carried on the BBC Scotland pages ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64076981

[grunt]

Oh.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlW5yAyWYAMGrE2?format=jpg&name=medium

[grunt]

Yeah, yeah, but it's in The National so therefore obviously not true ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlW5GNWWAAANwzK?format=jpg&name=medium

[James310]

Yeah, yeah, but it's in The National so therefore obviously not true ...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlW5GNWWAAANwzK?format=jpg&name=medium

That's from 2018?

[grunt]

That's from 2018?

And therefore not true?

[James310]

And therefore not true?

No idea, did anyone see the details of the "secret plot" or what it involved? Or I guess if it was secret nobody did? (Apart from the National of course)

[Moulin Yarns]

Oh.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlW5yAyWYAMGrE2?format=jpg&name=medium

How can a non EU nation stop another non EU nation from joining the EU?

[Bostonhibby]

Oh.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlW5yAyWYAMGrE2?format=jpg&name=mediumThe EU members make decisions and vote on membership, does this mean that a brexit benefit has at last been found?

UK in the form of Englandlands Nasty Party MP's rejoin the EU so as to veto a hypothetical application from an as yet not independent Scotland.

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[Glory Lurker]

Panic on the streets of London...

[James310]

Not the usual question but 59% in favour of remaining in the UK according to a new poll. Looks like the democracy denying grievance card lasted about 4 weeks and then people went back to normal.

Only 8% think Independence should be a priority for the Scottish Government but guess what the first debate in Parliament is on tomorrow? The crisis in the NHS? Cost of Living? Nope, it's about Independence.

Also showing yet again the SNP losing IndyRef2 on a de facto referendum basis.

The conference in March will be interesting, what's the SNPs next move if they drop the de facto referendum? Are they running out of ideas, is the Tories are bad people and we don't like Boris Johnson/Liz Truss/Rishi Sunak line now running out of steam or will we see we more of Labour are bad and we don't like Keir Starmer type campaigns.

It's at a crossroads I feel.

[Ozyhibby]

Not the usual question but 59% in favour of remaining in the UK according to a new poll. Looks like the democracy denying grievance card lasted about 4 weeks and then people went back to normal.

Only 8% think Independence should be a priority for the Scottish Government but guess what the first debate in Parliament is on tomorrow? The crisis in the NHS? Cost of Living? Nope, it's about Independence.

Also showing yet again the SNP losing IndyRef2 on a de facto referendum basis.

The conference in March will be interesting, what's the SNPs next move if they drop the de facto referendum? Are they running out of ideas, is the Tories are bad people and we don't like Boris Johnson/Liz Truss/Rishi Sunak line now running out of steam or will we see we more of Labour are bad and we don't like Keir Starmer type campaigns.

It's at a crossroads I feel.

Scotland in union poll.[emoji23]


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[ronaldo7]

Not the usual question but 59% in favour of remaining in the UK according to a new poll. Looks like the democracy denying grievance card lasted about 4 weeks and then people went back to normal.

Only 8% think Independence should be a priority for the Scottish Government but guess what the first debate in Parliament is on tomorrow? The crisis in the NHS? Cost of Living? Nope, it's about Independence.

Also showing yet again the SNP losing IndyRef2 on a de facto referendum basis.

The conference in March will be interesting, what's the SNPs next move if they drop the de facto referendum? Are they running out of ideas, is the Tories are bad people and we don't like Boris Johnson/Liz Truss/Rishi Sunak line now running out of steam or will we see we more of Labour are bad and we don't like Keir Starmer type campaigns.

It's at a crossroads I feel.

The FM, and Health secretary, are as I type, speaking about the Health service in Scotland at St Andrews House, and detailing what's going to happen going forward.

It's good that they can do two things at once eh. :greengrin

[grunt]

Are they running out of ideas, is the Tories are bad people and we don't like Boris Johnson/Liz Truss/Rishi Sunak line now running out of steam ...

It's at a crossroads I feel.
How in heck could this "line" EVER run out of steam when we see - many times a day - just how corrupt and selfish this fascist Tory party is??

Crossroads! :greengrin

[James310]

Scotland in union poll.[emoji23]


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You think the result is made up or wrong?

You know they never actually did the poll, just paid for it? Polling company Survation did the actual poll.

That's how polls work, someone commissions it and a polling company does the poll. You didn't actually think Scotland in Union did the poll themselves calling people up?

[James310]

How in heck could this "line" EVER run out of steam when we see - many times a day - just how corrupt and selfish this fascist Tory party is??

Crossroads! :greengrin

People can be angry at the Tories but when the alternative offering from the SNP is some leaflets with graphs on it then it's obviously not working.

You don't think it's at a crossroads, even SNP politicians are claiming this.

What do you think they will do if the de facto referendum strategy is scrapped?

[James310]

The FM, and Health secretary, are as I type, speaking about the Health service in Scotland at St Andrews House, and detailing what's going to happen going forward.

It's good that they can do two things at once eh. :greengrin

Not sure they can do two things at once if you look at the state of the NHS, but as long as it's better than England in some places some people don't really care.

[ronaldo7]

You think the result is made up or wrong?

You know they never actually did the poll, just paid for it? Polling company Survation did the actual poll.

That's how polls work, someone commissions it and a polling company does the poll. You didn't actually think Scotland in Union did the poll themselves calling people up?

What question did they try and taint the poll with this time. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Not sure they can do two things at once if you look at the state of the NHS, but as long as it's better than England in some places some people don't really care.

If only it was worse that Englands then people would be getting their jollies.

[James310]

What question did they try and taint the poll with this time. :greengrin

It was the standard leave or remain in the UK question. I don't buy into the premise people still think they are voting to leave or remain in the EU.

Still not to worry, I don't see a referendum for a very long time so not probably something anyone needs to worry to much about what the question would be.

[greenginger]

What question did they try and taint the poll with this time. :greengrin

Funny how polls a few weeks ago that showed a majority for independence were cast iron proof of the opinion of the people of Scotland, but now, a poll showing a different opinion is tainted and deemed worthless.

[The Modfather]

It was the standard leave or remain in the UK question. I don't buy into the premise people still think they are voting to leave or remain in the EU.

Still not to worry, I don't see a referendum for a very long time so not probably something anyone needs to worry to much about what the question would be.

For someone who doesn’t think there will be a referendum for a very long time you don’t half enjoy talking about it or keeping the thread alive when it goes quiet.

[ronaldo7]

Funny how polls a few weeks ago that showed a majority for independence were cast iron proof of the opinion of the people of Scotland, but now, a poll showing a different opinion is tainted and deemed worthless.

It's not funny at all.

The poster said it wasn't the usual question, so I asked what the question was. Scotland in Union have form for changing the question to suit their narrative.

[JeMeSouviens]

Funny how polls a few weeks ago that showed a majority for independence were cast iron proof of the opinion of the people of Scotland, but now, a poll showing a different opinion is tainted and deemed worthless.

All the other polls ask the 2014 question: "Should Scotland be an independent country?" Scotland in Union ask their own question: "Should Scotland Remain in the UK or Leave the UK?" Their results are consistently out of line.

[James310]

It's still proof people are rejecting separation, yes it's a different worded poll but we have no idea what the question would be in any future poll. The reason Yes/No was not used in the Brexit poll was the electoral commission said it was an unfair bias to Yes, so they used Leave and Remain.

So while Remain may have an in built bias so does Yes, it's encouraging therefore to see Remain and No leading in the latest polls.

Nobody seems to want to talk about what happens next if the SNP reject the de facto referendum plan, do they have a plan? Genuinely interested to hear from Indy supporters on this, it's a crossroads and will dictate Independence policy for next decade likely.

[Stairway 2 7]

All the other polls ask the 2014 question: "Should Scotland be an independent country?" Scotland in Union ask their own question: "Should Scotland Remain in the UK or Leave the UK?" Their results are consistently out of line.

Absolutely wild that there is a big difference in numbers. How the hell do people change there mind due to a question. If it's to do with getting confused, then I'm worried how daft a section of the population is

[Stairway 2 7]

When do people think the next referendum will be, surely not in the next couple of years

[James310]

Absolutely wild that there is a big difference in numbers. How the hell do people change there mind due to a question. If it's to do with getting confused, then I'm worried how daft a section of the population is

Yep, if people still think they are voting in the EU referendum despite no mention of the EU in the question you wonder if they deserve a vote.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s not just the wording of the question but also questions asked before it in the poll. Will have to wait on the data being released but it’s likely that questions such as ‘do you think the SG is failing the NHS’ we’re asked first. It’s a common trick you can do if you want to elicit a certain response.
John Curtice regularly discounts Scotland in Union polls.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

It’s not just the wording of the question but also questions asked before it in the poll. Will have to wait on the data being released but it’s likely that questions such as ‘do you think the SG is failing the NHS’ we’re asked first. It’s a common trick you can do if you want to elicit a certain response.
John Curtice regularly discounts Scotland in Union polls.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What's wrong with asking people if they think the SG is failing the NHS? Seems a reasonable question to ask in the current climate.

If I went on the Tory thread and asked do people think the Tories are failing the English NHS would it be classed as an unfair and biased question?

[Santa Cruz]

It's still proof people are rejecting separation, yes it's a different worded poll but we have no idea what the question would be in any future poll. The reason Yes/No was not used in the Brexit poll was the electoral commission said it was an unfair bias to Yes, so they used Leave and Remain.

So while Remain may have an in built bias so does Yes, it's encouraging therefore to see Remain and No leading in the latest polls.

Nobody seems to want to talk about what happens next if the SNP reject the de facto referendum plan, do they have a plan? Genuinely interested to hear from Indy supporters on this, it's a crossroads and will dictate Independence policy for next decade likely.

You can't not know what the next plan is. They only have one option left while the Tories remain in power that's obvious to me anyway. They'll have to collapse Holyrood and go to an early election. Not sure if the FM resigns if she can stand for that position again immediately, anyone know?

[JeMeSouviens]

Absolutely wild that there is a big difference in numbers. How the hell do people change there mind due to a question. If it's to do with getting confused, then I'm worried how daft a section of the population is

Cognitive bias. The human brain takes shortcuts. Most of the respondents will be seeing the question framed this way for the first time. It's easier than you might think to make a mistake of this order if you're not paying full attention.

Edit: remember these are online polls, so it's just click to pick and then hit next.

[JeMeSouviens]

It’s not just the wording of the question but also questions asked before it in the poll. Will have to wait on the data being released but it’s likely that questions such as ‘do you think the SG is failing the NHS’ we’re asked first. It’s a common trick you can do if you want to elicit a certain response.
John Curtice regularly discounts Scotland in Union polls.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The 4 responses they allow for the "Scottish govt performance questions" are that the SG is doing:

1. "very well"
2. "quite well"
3. "not that well"
4. "not at all well"

They then compare 1+2 vs 3+4. There is no neutral option. Arguably, if you were looking for a neutral option, I think you'd pick 3 rather than 2.

[JeMeSouviens]

You can't not know what the next plan is. They only have one option left while the Tories remain in power that's obvious to me anyway. They'll have to collapse Holyrood and go to an early election. Not sure if the FM resigns if she can stand for that position again immediately, anyone know?

The "collapse" of Holyrood is not totally straightforward. I think it's supposed to require a 2/3 majority. I think there is a technicality that if NS resigns as FM and the SNP/Greens block the election of any other new FM for 6 weeks (or something along those lines) then a new election would have to be held.

Pretty sure there's nothing to stop NS being FM again afterwards if the SNP win again.

[degenerated]

Just noticed this in one of the unionist go to publications. Feel the love, eh?26380

[Kato]

is the Tories are bad people and we don't like Boris Johnson/Liz Truss/Rishi Sunak line now running out of steam



You see that as "a line"?

Is it not the reality?

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[Kato]

If I went on the Tory thread and asked do people think the Tories are failing the English NHS would it be classed as an unfair and biased question?

It would be seen as a weird occurance as it would be you questioning the Govt rather than your usual obsession.



Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Santa Cruz]

The "collapse" of Holyrood is not totally straightforward. I think it's supposed to require a 2/3 majority. I think there is a technicality that if NS resigns as FM and the SNP/Greens block the election of any other new FM for 6 weeks (or something along those lines) then a new election would have to be held.

Pretty sure there's nothing to stop NS being FM again afterwards if the SNP win again.

Thanks. Think this will happen.

[Just Alf]

Funny how polls a few weeks ago that showed a majority for independence were cast iron proof of the opinion of the people of Scotland, but now, a poll showing a different opinion is tainted and deemed worthless.To be fair, a couple of the polls you mention were caveated at the time by the poster as coming from indy leaning pollsters/groups so not too much could be read into them until genuinely independent pollsters began showing a trend.

Don't understand why union campaigning led pollsters can't have the same scrutiny (or even a basic acknowledgement of the fact)

[James310]

Thanks. Think this will happen.

But then what? The SNP wins and Nicola Sturgeon is FM again, isn't that back to where we are today?

[JeMeSouviens]

To be fair, a couple of the polls you were caveated at the time as coming from indy leaning pollsters/groups so not too much could be read into them until genuinely independent pollsters began showing a trend.

Don't understand why union campaigning led pollsters can't have the same scrutiny (or even a basic acknowledgement of the fact)

You're conflating the pollsters and the clients there I think.

All the polls we're talking about are conducted by independent polling firms who are members of the British Polling Council and operate to their guidelines (which means they have to do things like show exactly the question asked, the sample size, how they collected the sample, online or by phone, how the respondents broke down inc DKs and refusals and what weightings they applied to the sample).

but

1. some pollsters tend to show better results for Yes than No or vice versa, eg. Yougov quite no-friendly, Ipsos quite yes-friendly. Most probably due to the weightings they are applying to the sample.

2. the pollsters vet the questions to some extent but they don't set the question, that's up to the client. Some clients ask more straightforward questions than others. Some are seeking to gauge opinion, some to influence it and some just to get a story.

To add an extra layer of confusion, sometimes the pollster is also the client, ie. a pollster will put out a poll just to keep their name out there and show the type of stuff they do.

[Santa Cruz]

But then what? The SNP wins and Nicola Sturgeon is FM again, isn't that back to where we are today?

Yes. IMO until the electorate stop voting SNP in large numbers this is how it will be. I suspect they will hope to secure an even bigger % of votes which enables a stronger case to be made for a S30 to be granted. Not that hard to imagine while they can still point to a useless, greedy, self-serving Tory Gov. They can't afford to take the risk of waiting for the next G.E. I think they would lose a % of voters back to Labour, rendering the de facto plan useless.

[James310]

Yes. IMO until the electorate stop voting SNP in large numbers this is how it will be. I suspect they will hope to secure an even bigger % of votes which enables a stronger case to be made for a S30 to be granted. Not that hard to imagine while they can still point to a useless, greedy, self-serving Tory Gov. They can't afford to take the risk of waiting for the next G.E. I think they would lose a % of voters back to Labour, rendering the de facto plan useless.

Don't see it happening at all, even the poll today shows them at 44% on the constituency vote and 33% on the list. Greens and Alba don't normally stand in the constituency vote so it's yet another 'defeat' if you are framing it as some kind of Independence vote.

Plus people won't be voting for Independence in a Scottish election, there is things like the NHS and Education at stake and they will have to talked about, they can't be ignored. I can't imagine the electorate being that happy about pushing yet another vote on us with everything that's going on as well.

[grunt]

It’s not just the wording of the question but also questions asked before it in the poll.


What's wrong with asking people if they think the SG is failing the NHS? Seems a reasonable question to ask in the current climate.


https://youtu.be/6GSKwf4AIlI

[Santa Cruz]

Don't see it happening at all, even the poll today shows them at 44% on the constituency vote and 33% on the list. Greens and Alba don't normally stand in the constituency vote so it's yet another 'defeat' if you are framing it as some kind of Independence vote.

Plus people won't be voting for Independence in a Scottish election, there is things like the NHS and Education at stake and they will have to talked about, they can't be ignored. I can't imagine the electorate being that happy about pushing yet another vote on us with everything that's going on as well.

Your last sentence, that's a risk for any political party, backfired on Theresa May's Gov, but you just wouldn't know how voters will respond to it given the current financial crisis which many will blame the Tory Gov for.

People always vote for Independence in Scottish Elections. There's enough posters on here that admit once they achieve that goal they won't vote SNP again.

Have a good afternoon James, I can only take so much Indy chat as find it boring. I'm more about domestic issues. Don't want you thinking I'm ignoring any more replies today :aok:

[He's here!]

What's wrong with asking people if they think the SG is failing the NHS? Seems a reasonable question to ask in the current climate.

If I went on the Tory thread and asked do people think the Tories are failing the English NHS would it be classed as an unfair and biased question?

Hard to imagine any poll, no matter who it's commissioned by, would reveal anything other than negativity towards either the UK government's or the Scottish government's handling of public services right now.

Another day off for me tomorrow with the latest Scottish primary teachers' strike. Unlike last time though non-teaching staff are required to 'attend their place of work' even though the schools will be empty. If, like myself, you have primary aged kids at home and no other childcare available, your only option is to take a day of unpaid leave. F***ing nuts. Hit staff in the pocket due to a strike they're not even part of.

[GlesgaeHibby]

When do people think the next referendum will be, surely not in the next couple of years

Not any time soon under the current SNP leadership. Absolutely no urgency has been shown on independence - took 8 years to start working on updating the prospectus and addressing some of the issues that people felt weren't adequately addressed in 2014. Most recent example being the response to the Supreme Court verdict. Instead of springing into immediate action, the response was to convene a special conference 4 months down the line.

[Hibrandenburg]

Hard to imagine any poll, no matter who it's commissioned by, would reveal anything other than negativity towards either the UK government's or the Scottish government's handling of public services right now.

Another day off for me tomorrow with the latest Scottish primary teachers' strike. Unlike last time though non-teaching staff are required to 'attend their place of work' even though the schools will be empty. If, like myself, you have primary aged kids at home and no other childcare available, your only option is to take a day of unpaid leave. F***ing nuts. Hit staff in the pocket due to a strike they're not even part of.

Strikes causing disruption, whatever next?