Scottish Independence

[Ozyhibby]

He explains why it's different, but it's purely his opinion that those differences make it better. It's certainly not a fact.

I read it and took it as a throw away line from someone who work in Scottish legal system?


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[1875godsgift]

Indeed … Though after watching that absolute car crash of smug oily Tories like Johnson and Gove smarm threaten and bluster their way through the first day of parliament's return the other day nothing on this earth would persuade me not to vote for independence at this point … If any Scottish resident, be that natural born or recently arrived, watching that still thinks those are the people who should be governing us then the must be the sort of folk who like to pay rubber clad women to make them lick out toilet bowls.

I was born in Scotland, but don't live here anymore, and would certainly vote for Independence. :saltireflag

I would however pay a nominal amount to a watch rubber-cladded BoJo, Gove and Reese Mogg lick out a heavily soiled toilet bowl in a tour bus with a logo on the side saying 'Only 349 million to go'

[Future17]

I read it and took it as a throw away line from someone who work in Scottish legal system?


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You might be right but, without context, I still wouldn't trust the opinion of someone whose throwaway lines claim things to be facts which aren't facts.

How are we to know what is throwaway and what is not?

[Moulin Yarns]

Oh oh... 👀👀 ... it's definitely a sign... ✨✨✨

Unicorn knocked off Buckingham Palace gates by delivery lorry https://t.co/0jql8NXAPG vía @MetroUK

[weecounty hibby]

Just watched the party political broadcast by the Scottish Tories. Said all Nicola Sturgeon talks about is independence. Guess what they talked about all the way through the broadcast. Independence!!! No policies, no plans, no new ideas, no hint of a manifesto, no hint as to what they would do about healthcare, education, safer streets just that it should be better. Just all about stopping Indyref2. They will struggle without Ruth at the helm I hope.

[Peevemor]

Scottish court to decide whether Boris Johnson can be jailed over no-deal Brexit

Published:*14:30Tuesday 01 October 2019

A judge has fixed a date for proceedings in which Scotland’s highest civil court will consider whether it can imprison the Prime Minister if he pursues a ‘no-deal’ Brexit.

Lord Pentland arranged a hearing to take place this Friday at the Court of Session for a legal action brought by SNP MP Joanna Cherry, English lawyer Jo Maugham QC and businessman Dale Vince.

The trio want the court to grant an interdict that would stop Boris Johnson from not complying with the terms of the recently passed Benn Act.

The legislation, which was introduced by Labour MP Hilary Benn, was passed by Parliament following*claims the PM would ignore the wishes of elected politicians and deliver a no-deal Brexit.

The petitioners who brought the case to the Edinburgh court want judges there to consider fining or imprisoning Mr Johnson in the event of him disregarding the Benn Act.

The new case is running alongside another set of proceedings - the so called Nobile Officium action. The Nobile Officium is an action that is not available to courts in England and Wales.

In that action, the same petitioners - Ms Cherry, Mr Maugham, and Mr Dale - are asking the court to sign a letter to European leaders requesting a Brexit extension in the event Mr Johnson refuses to do so.

Petitioners 'forced' into legal action

The petitioners in the case say they have been forced to take legal action because Mr Johnson has said he would rather “die in a ditch” than push back the leaving date beyond 31 October this year.

The petitioners originally included the request for interdict in the Nobile Officium action, which they raised in the Court of Session last month.

However, since then, the petitioners have taken out the request for the order and included it in the new action which they have raised.

According to legal papers lodged with the court last month, the petitioners wanted the court to pass orders.

The papers stated: “To interdict the Prime Minister and any other minister of the Crown in right of the United Kingdom and anybody acting on their behalf or at their request from withdrawing, cancelling or otherwise undermining the effect of any letter sent in accordance with section 1 (4) for the European Union (Withdrawal) (No.2) Act 2019;

“In the event that the Prime Minister fails, delays or refuses to sign the letter required of him by the European Union (Withdrawal) (No.2)) Act 2019 and in accordance with this court’s order for the specific performance of the Prime Minister’s statutory duties to make orders to the following effect in the exercise of this court’s nobile officium; a) ordaining that a letter in the form set out in the schedule to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2019 to be drawn up and signed by the clerk of court on behalf of the Prime Minister b) ordaining that a letter so signed be sent to the President of the European Council.

“To impose such other conditions and other penalties including fine and imprisonment, where consistent with the European Union (Withdrawal) no.2 Act 2019 as to the court shall in all the circumstances seem proper and appropriate in the event of the order not being implemented.”

[danhibees1875]

Just watched the party political broadcast by the Scottish Tories. Said all Nicola Sturgeon talks about is independence. Guess what they talked about all the way through the broadcast. Independence!!! No policies, no plans, no new ideas, no hint of a manifesto, no hint as to what they would do about healthcare, education, safer streets just that it should be better. Just all about stopping Indyref2. They will struggle without Ruth at the helm I hope.

The politics of today!

I'm not sure if they have many policies (I tried to read a manifesto of theirs once and it was as boring as it was substance-less) and I doubt what they have is positive but their best route to votes is just through boring dogmatic negativity against the characters their potential voters don't like.

Their political messages are easy and have been the same for a while, even when they had a likeable character (debatable I'm sure, but IMO) in Davidson at the helm who should have been taking them to a better place.

1) SNP
2) Independence referendum
Repeat x20

Throw in a bit of Corbyn if there's time.

[Bristolhibby]

The politics of today!

I'm not sure if they have many policies (I tried to read a manifesto of theirs once and it was as boring as it was substance-less) and I doubt what they have is positive but their best route to votes is just through boring dogmatic negativity against the characters their potential voters don't like.

Their political messages are easy and have been the same for a while, even when they had a likeable character (debatable I'm sure, but IMO) in Davidson at the helm who should have been taking them to a better place.

1) SNP
2) Independence referendum
Repeat x20

Throw in a bit of Corbyn if there's time.

Re the Corbyn bit, is he a “Marxist”? Does it say?

Do they mention “Our friends and partners in Europe”?

J

[JeMeSouviens]

The politics of today!

I'm not sure if they have many policies (I tried to read a manifesto of theirs once and it was as boring as it was substance-less) and I doubt what they have is positive but their best route to votes is just through boring dogmatic negativity against the characters their potential voters don't like.

Their political messages are easy and have been the same for a while, even when they had a likeable character (debatable I'm sure, but IMO) in Davidson at the helm who should have been taking them to a better place.

1) SNP
2) Independence referendum
Repeat x20

Throw in a bit of Corbyn if there's time.

I think the anti-SNP-no-to-indyref-Sturgeon-is-the-antichrist stuff worked to an extent in coalescing the hard Unionist vote around the Tories but it's way past the time they should have been moving on to also having an actual policy platform of their own if they were serious about trying to be the largest party at Holyrood (supposedly their target for 2021). I guess maybe just more collateral damage of Brexit.

It will be interesting to see how they get on Ruthless. From a presentational point of view, they look much more like the Tories of old - Alister Jack = Ian Lang, Ross Thomson = Michael Forsyth, etc.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/how-boris-johnson-is-morphing-into-a-slapdash-john-mcdonnell-joyce-mcmillan-1-5017302/amp?__twitter_impression=true
Interesting article on the rise of British nationalism and how it affects Scotland.


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[GlesgaeHibby]

Just watched the party political broadcast by the Scottish Tories. Said all Nicola Sturgeon talks about is independence. Guess what they talked about all the way through the broadcast. Independence!!! No policies, no plans, no new ideas, no hint of a manifesto, no hint as to what they would do about healthcare, education, safer streets just that it should be better. Just all about stopping Indyref2. They will struggle without Ruth at the helm I hope.

Ruth looked like she wanted the ground to swallow her up as she sat behind Jackson Carlaw at FMQ's on Thursday.

I'm starting to get a feeling that Nicola Sturgeon's time as FM and SNP leader will be up fairly soon. Massive march for independence in Edinburgh today and she's not there. Good at turning up for anti-Brexit rallies /marches though...

[Peevemor]

Ruth looked like she wanted the ground to swallow her up as she sat behind Jackson Carlaw at FMQ's on Thursday.

I'm starting to get a feeling that Nicola Sturgeon's time as FM and SNP leader will be up fairly soon. Massive march for independence in Edinburgh today and she's not there. Good at turning up for anti-Brexit rallies /marches though...Maybe she has something else on that she can't get out of. It happens.

[Jack]

Ruth looked like she wanted the ground to swallow her up as she sat behind Jackson Carlaw at FMQ's on Thursday.

I'm starting to get a feeling that Nicola Sturgeon's time as FM and SNP leader will be up fairly soon. Massive march for independence in Edinburgh today and she's not there. Good at turning up for anti-Brexit rallies /marches though...

Maybe reinforcing the idea it's not all about the SNP???

[cabbageandribs1875]

22590



i won't put up the abuse she's getting from some,and not just from the unionist t*ts

i think it's right she's not there

[The Harp Awakes]

Some turn out today on the independence march in Edinburgh. 200k a conservative estimate. The march walked past ~50 unionists in a counter demonstration drowning out their guy on a loudspeaker with renditions of Flower of Scotland.

Independence is coming soon.

[CloudSquall]

22590


i think it's right she's not there

Can I ask why?

Catalan leaders are willing to go to jail for independence, our's can't make a march..unless it's an anti Brexit march with selfie opportunities with the likes of Alistair Campbell, her schedule is free for that.

[SHODAN]

Some turn out today on the independence march in Edinburgh. 200k a conservative estimate. The march walked past ~50 unionists in a counter demonstration drowning out their guy on a loudspeaker with renditions of Flower of Scotland.

Independence is coming soon.

I still think the Tories' strategy of "guffaw guffaw get back in your box Scotland, no referendum for you" will placate what's left of the 55% for a while yet.

[Ozyhibby]

Can I ask why?

Catalan leaders are willing to go to jail for independence, our's can't make a march..unless it's an anti Brexit march with selfie opportunities with the likes of Alistair Campbell, her schedule is free for that.

The independence movement in Scotland is a ground up movement. It doesn’t need leaders.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Can I ask why?

Catalan leaders are willing to go to jail for independence, our's can't make a march..unless it's an anti Brexit march with selfie opportunities with the likes of Alistair Campbell, her schedule is free for that.

Why not ask her yourself? Her tweet says that she can't be there, maybe her other half got a pair of tickets for Pittodrie?

[ronaldo7]

Some turn out today on the independence march in Edinburgh. 200k a conservative estimate. The march walked past ~50 unionists in a counter demonstration drowning out their guy on a loudspeaker with renditions of Flower of Scotland.

Independence is coming soon.

Nice to see so many hibees there today. Hope you had a great day. We're Scots, who cares about the rain. 👍

💦💦💦

[Moulin Yarns]

Nice to see so many hibees there today. Hope you had a great day. We're Scots, who cares about the rain. 👍

💦💦💦

Was it raining? Never noticed, the warmth of the crowd must have turned to steam 🌧️☔😁

[offshorehibby]

Nice to see so many hibees there today. Hope you had a great day. We're Scots, who cares about the rain. 👍

💦💦💦

Sorry i never caught up with you and Keith, ended up in the Grapes to continue a great day.

[Fife-Hibee]

Some turn out today on the independence march in Edinburgh. 200k a conservative estimate. The march walked past ~50 unionists in a counter demonstration drowning out their guy on a loudspeaker with renditions of Flower of Scotland.

Independence is coming soon.

Think you're being a bit liberal with that 50 estimate. Looked closer to 12. Nobody could hear a word the manky jaikit holocaust denier was saying with all the whistles. :greengrin The few standing around him had very defeated looks on their faces.

[weecounty hibby]

Think you're being a bit liberal with that 50 estimate. Looked closer to 12. Nobody could hear a word the manky jaikit holocaust denier was saying with all the whistles. :greengrin The few standing around him had very defeated looks on their faces.
It must be difficult to look upbeat when 200,000 folk all having a good time with a positive message have just walked past you. Imagine living in their skin being so down, with a negative attitude about the country you live in, watching so many people walk by laughing at you. They are an embarrassment.

[Moulin Yarns]

Think you're being a bit liberal with that 50 estimate. Looked closer to 12. Nobody could hear a word the manky jaikit holocaust denier was saying with all the whistles. :greengrin The few standing around him had very defeated looks on their faces.

In my opinion there were more yesterday than there were last year or at Dundee, must have cost a fortune in bribes. Could have been around 50, they were well spread out.

[Moulin Yarns]

Enjoy the truth.


https://twitter.com/GDauwen/status/1180533152449732608?s=19

[Fife-Hibee]

It must be difficult to look upbeat when 200,000 folk all having a good time with a positive message have just walked past you. Imagine living in their skin being so down, with a negative attitude about the country you live in, watching so many people walk by laughing at you. They are an embarrassment.


In my opinion there were more yesterday than there were last year or at Dundee, must have cost a fortune in bribes. Could have been around 50, they were well spread out.

I notice STV claimed that the "march didn't feel quite as big as last year". Who do they think they're kidding?

[Ozyhibby]

I think yesterday shows that the Yes2 campaign is ready to go. Getting those sorts of numbers in a country our size is fantastic. Still a lot of work to be done persuading the soft no votes from last time but if helps if your base is already energised and good to go.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

22596225972259822599



1st pic is a marvellous sight, two million i reckon :agree: 3 million if it wasn't raining :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

Can I ask why?

Catalan leaders are willing to go to jail for independence, our's can't make a march..unless it's an anti Brexit march with selfie opportunities with the likes of Alistair Campbell, her schedule is free for that.



i just think as first minister she should not attend these marches, the foot soldiers are doing a good enough job.and yes i know joanna cherry and others was there

[Future17]

22596225972259822599



1st pic is a marvellous sight, two million i reckon :agree: 3 million if it wasn't raining :greengrin

First one is brilliant - where did you get that?

[ronaldo7]

Sorry i never caught up with you and Keith, ended up in the Grapes to continue a great day.

No problems mate. I'm sure you had a great day. :wink:

https://youtu.be/5I5y9nz9fKM

Scottish Normalism. :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

First one is brilliant - where did you get that?



facebook :agree:all of them



but the Scottish press didn't realise a march took place, no surprises there right enough

22600

[weecounty hibby]

No problems mate. I'm sure you had a great day. :wink:

https://youtu.be/5I5y9nz9fKM

Scottish Normalism. :greengrin

That is fantastic. It really does show the positivity in the independence movement. Yes there are complete dicks out there but in general it is a positive, friendly, welcoming, inclusive message. Another fabulous day and yet another one that the Scottish media are trying their best to ignore. The grassroots, face to face, conversations being had are what is gathering more and more people to the independence cause. That and the total disaster of Brexit and the jump to the right in Westminster politics

[Ozyhibby]

That is fantastic. It really does show the positivity in the independence movement. Yes there are complete dicks out there but in general it is a positive, friendly, welcoming, inclusive message. Another fabulous day and yet another one that the Scottish media are trying their best to ignore. The grassroots, face to face, conversations being had are what is gathering more and more people to the independence cause. That and the total disaster of Brexit and the jump to the right in Westminster politics

The print media in Scotland has become a lot less important now than in 2014. Most newspapers now sell half the numbers they did then.
And there are now pro independence newspapers.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

The print media in Scotland has become a lot less important now than in 2014. Most newspapers now sell half the numbers they did then.
And there are now pro independence newspapers.


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plural ? which is the other one other than the National :dunno: to be honest all i want to see is some balance at the very least,not just pro, tho i subscribe to the national online i don't read it, unless someone on facebook puts a link up to a story that is :)

[The Harp Awakes]

No problems mate. I'm sure you had a great day. :wink:

https://youtu.be/5I5y9nz9fKM

Scottish Normalism. :greengrin

Brilliant!

[cabbageandribs1875]

2260122602

[Moulin Yarns]

No problems mate. I'm sure you had a great day. :wink:

https://youtu.be/5I5y9nz9fKM

Scottish Normalism. :greengrin

Yay bugger!! Beat me to it. I defy anyone not to have a wee tear in their eyes.

[Moulin Yarns]

facebook :agree:all of them



but the Scottish press didn't realise a march took place, no surprises there right enough

22600

What did the telegraph have on the front page? Couldn't see it for the copies of the National that were hiding on top. 😉

[cabbageandribs1875]

What did the telegraph have on the front page? Couldn't see it for the copies of the National that were hiding on top. 😉


lol, the Tartan House in livi centre have football t-shirts at the entrance to the shop, normally sevco ones at the front so i nip in,kid on i'm browsing and place hibs/sellick ones on top of them :)

[Fife-Hibee]

22596225972259822599



1st pic is a marvellous sight, two million i reckon :agree: 3 million if it wasn't raining :greengrin


https://i.ibb.co/DDpd2Kg/lol.jpg

Bah! There's only 11-12,000 there tops!



Source....

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71491009_2522692864434189_1143237603189850112_n.pn g?_nc_cat=1&_nc_eui2=AeGpxeQQUGz-1qPNYearHp-JrYT8lzTghKZpLwhY81Ptxl1DijrMxy41xY80hvFevdw4CMnCw r5NsD3y6zsIbO_syj8Ky3W8lotOvGQgsPfm7w&_nc_oc=AQkwzonojbNUXWM3Xhrl9h4EPbpZpRricVYRwj3VoB6 8wReyD-rCJccaFeizXT9MGgg&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=cfaef3cc216b4ab36916a466145c005f&oe=5E2BEB59

[cabbageandribs1875]

Bah! There's only 11-12,000 there tops!



Source....

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71491009_2522692864434189_1143237603189850112_n.pn g?_nc_cat=1&_nc_eui2=AeGpxeQQUGz-1qPNYearHp-JrYT8lzTghKZpLwhY81Ptxl1DijrMxy41xY80hvFevdw4CMnCw r5NsD3y6zsIbO_syj8Ky3W8lotOvGQgsPfm7w&_nc_oc=AQkwzonojbNUXWM3Xhrl9h4EPbpZpRricVYRwj3VoB6 8wReyD-rCJccaFeizXT9MGgg&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=cfaef3cc216b4ab36916a466145c005f&oe=5E2BEB59


:faf: i saw a few posts where some dreamer was saying when the marchers get to the top o the mile they go back down side streets to join again at the back :hilarious


and it's great they got all the yoon protesters/Holocaust deniers fitting into this one photo :agree: that'll be the photo the BBC will use for reporting down south



the yoons are even starting to blame the polis...22603 :)

[Curried]

No problems mate. I'm sure you had a great day. :wink:

https://youtu.be/5I5y9nz9fKM

Scottish Normalism. :greengrin


Superb:-)

[Smartie]

I find the obsession from both sides of the argument over the attendances at these events peculiar.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/lesley-riddoch-this-is-why-unionism-is-in-terminal-decline-1-5018738/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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[Smartie]

I wonder if anyone on here could do me a favour?

At some point over the past couple of months, someone posted a graphic that showed people's preference for independence in Scotland and a united Ireland by the various different age groups of voter (they showed pretty much all but the oldest groups are in favour of Scottish independence and a united Ireland).

I'm in a fight with a load of gammons on another site and I would quite like to find those graphs (I've had a quick scan here and not been able to find them).

Their answer to the Irish border question is to create a part of Northern Ireland that I can F off and live in if I don't like what's going to happen here, and I'd quite like to point out that their "vision" of post-Brexit Britain is likely to come up against some resistance in Scotland and Ireland (their "finger on pulse" in Scotland and Northern Ireland seems to be comment from the Daily Express and DUP statements).

Anyone?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191007/3ffd7aa62873840bc49c0453bb0a019f.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191007/d62cfb10e1b69a89586493600f50b565.jpg


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[SHODAN]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191007/3ffd7aa62873840bc49c0453bb0a019f.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191007/d62cfb10e1b69a89586493600f50b565.jpg


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What is the deal with Gen Z being more unionst than Millennials? That's an odd one.

[JeMeSouviens]

What is the deal with Gen Z being more unionst than Millennials? That's an odd one.

It's probably off a very small sample size.

[Ozyhibby]

What is the deal with Gen Z being more unionst than Millennials? That's an odd one.

Is it possible English uni students brought the Indy vote down a bit?


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[Smartie]

What is the deal with Gen Z being more unionst than Millennials? That's an odd one.

Was there not talk that the London Olympics had a big influence?

Union flags everywhere, it probably came at a very significant time during their "self-discovery" period and will have strongly appealed to their sense of identity?

[JeMeSouviens]

Is it possible English uni students brought the Indy vote down a bit?


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Was there not talk that the London Olympics had a big influence?

Union flags everywhere, it probably came at a very significant time during their "self-discovery" period and will have strongly appealed to their sense of identity?

Don't read too much into these numbers. The data for the poll is here https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/LORD-ASHCROFT-POLLS-Post-referendum-poll-tables-Sept-2014.pdf

The sample size for 18-24 year olds was 84. On a sample size that small the sampling error is huge.

[The Harp Awakes]

I find the obsession from both sides of the argument over the attendances at these events peculiar.

You'll always get that with opposite sides of the argument. Eyes don't lie though. A look at the aerial photographs showing only segments of the march confirm a massive number taking part.

My sister and I were near the head of the line and it took us ~40 minutes to walk the length of just over a mile. It then took 2 full hours for the tail to arrive which suggests a 3 mile long march along wide roads (sounds about right as folk gathered in Holyrood Park said it took them an hour to move from the start) Assume 30 people to every yard and you have a very rough estimate of over 150,000 taking part. I think that's probably a conservative estimate though.

[Ozyhibby]

You'll always get that with opposite sides of the argument. Eyes don't lie though. A look at the aerial photographs showing only segments of the march confirm a massive number taking part.

My sister and I were near the head of the line and it took us ~40 minutes to walk the length of just over a mile. It then took 2 full hours for the tail to arrive which suggests a 3 mile long march along wide roads (sounds about right as folk gathered in Holyrood Park said it took them an hour to move from the start) Assume 30 people to every yard and you have a very rough estimate of over 150,000 taking part. I think that's probably a conservative estimate though.

The exact number doesn’t matter so much as the fact that we are not even in a campaign yet and the YES campaign is pulling in bigger numbers to its events than it managed even towards the end of the last campaign.
Add to that the fact that Better together 2 has only Ruth Davidson to lead it and very little else in the way of popular politicians in Scotland and things are looking bright for the Indy movement.


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[The Harp Awakes]

The exact number doesn’t matter so much as the fact that we are not even in a campaign yet and the YES campaign is pulling in bigger numbers to its events than it managed even towards the end of the last campaign.
Add to that the fact that Better together 2 has only Ruth Davidson to lead it and very little else in the way of popular politicians in Scotland and things are looking bright for the Indy movement.


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Agreed. I remember 6 months before the 2014 referendum, Yes was polling ~28%, jumping 17% on the day to 45%.

Presently Yes is polling at 49-52% based on recent opinion polls. The current level of polling added to what happened in 2014, has to give significant cause for optimism to those wanting independence.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Power of Scotland
#indyref2 https://t.co/xlQzck1euG

[stoneyburn hibs]

The Power of Scotland
#indyref2 https://t.co/xlQzck1euG

That's excellent.

[weecounty hibby]

The Power of Scotland
#indyref2 https://t.co/xlQzck1euG

10/10. That stuff should be shared over and over and over again.

[Moulin Yarns]

Dozens of Scotland’s prominent cultural figures have signed a “declaration for independence” ahead of the SNP’s autumn conference.
https://t.co/u9QRcM470a

[Ozyhibby]

Uk economy shrank again last month 0.1%.
Since brexit vote we have fallen further behind the rest of the EU.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191010/8e5387c3603c78a495fe636b0315c0d2.jpg
Meanwhile Ireland shows what a small independent country in the EU can achieve with 7.8% growth. They are already richer than us and the gap is increasing.
Amazingly there are people who believe Scotland can’t achieve what Ireland can.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Uk economy shrank again last month 0.1%.
Since brexit vote we have fallen further behind the rest of the EU.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191010/8e5387c3603c78a495fe636b0315c0d2.jpg
Meanwhile Ireland shows what a small independent country in the EU can achieve with 7.8% growth. They are already richer than us and the gap is increasing.
Amazingly there are people who believe Scotland can’t achieve what Ireland can.


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It's not that they don't think we can achieve what the ROI can. It's just their deep underlining hatred of the ROI.

[puff the dragon]

If we have learnt anything from the brexit farce we should never see another referendum on anything ever again.

Should there be an indyref2 then the SNP are going to have to ensure they have answers to all key questions and an implementation plan.

brexit has shown the ‘we’ll just work it out as we go along’ approach to be unworkable - so currency, defence, border, trade, debt etc etc all need to be answered prior to any vote

[Ozyhibby]

If we have learnt anything from the brexit farce we should never see another referendum on anything ever again.

Should there be an indyref2 then the SNP are going to have to ensure they have answers to all key questions and an implementation plan.

brexit has shown the ‘we’ll just work it out as we go along’ approach to be unworkable - so currency, defence, border, trade, debt etc etc all need to be answered prior to any vote

Only currency is hard to answer there.


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[puff the dragon]

Only currency is hard to answer there.


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the EU and UK negotiating teams would differ in opinion. Currency is the only thing they don’t need to worry about and as you say it’s the most difficult in the Scottish independence list so imagine when combined with the others.

too many agendas in play for a fair split after the event so needs to be 100% clear what we would be voting for.

[Ozyhibby]

the EU and UK negotiating teams would differ in opinion. Currency is the only thing they don’t need to worry about and as you say it’s the most difficult in the Scottish independence list so imagine when combined with the others.

too many agendas in play for a fair split after the event so needs to be 100% clear what we would be voting for.

An iScotland in the EU would have its trade agreement set before hand.
Debt and division of assets might take years to sort out but would not affect day to day life in either country.
Defence, we would be in NATO so would be spending 2% of GDP in line with other members. There would be co operation with other members including rUK.


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[puff the dragon]

An iScotland in the EU would have its trade agreement set before hand.
Debt and division of assets might take years to sort out but would not affect day to day life in either country.
Defence, we would be in NATO so would be spending 2% of GDP in line with other members. There would be co operation with other members including rUK.


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add the EU membership question to the list of answers they will need - not every nationalist that keen.

and the debt - pretty important if the EU question above is join.

also NATO - sure there is some objections to a submarine we have based here.

you’re beginning to see it’s not as simple as you’re making it out to be.

i’m not backing leave or remain here - the facts need to be in any future question.

[Moulin Yarns]

add the EU membership question to the list of answers they will need - not every nationalist that keen.

and the debt - pretty important if the EU question above is join.

also NATO - sure there is some objections to a submarine we have based here.

you’re beginning to see it’s not as simple as you’re making it out to be.

i’m not backing leave or remain here - the facts need to be in any future question.

You know what the question will be before the government. Well done. I suspect it will be a yes or no answer rather than be confused with the EU leave /remain.

[puff the dragon]

You know what the question will be before the government. Well done. I suspect it will be a yes or no answer rather than be confused with the EU leave /remain.

again, per the brexit chat the points made are being missed as the individuals own politics are blinkering their opinions (I am assuming you and oz are nationalists so apologies if I misread).

the point is the independence question does not have to be justified to the already converted. If the SNP are going to win a referendum then they are going to have to convince those without the ‘Indy at all costs’ persuasion to vote for it. Coming out of the farce that is brexit, if they can’t answer any of the questions that have been issues in the brexit separation then those voters are going to lean to remain.

you have your die hard nationalists an£ you have your die hard unionists. Then you have the majority like me who will vote for the outcome that makes them better off than the other outcome. Ignore that if you wish, but if you do be prepared to lose again as the remain parties will be hammering it.

[Ozyhibby]

again, per the brexit chat the points made are being missed as the individuals own politics are blinkering their opinions (I am assuming you and oz are nationalists so apologies if I misread).

the point is the independence question does not have to be justified to the already converted. If the SNP are going to win a referendum then they are going to have to convince those without the ‘Indy at all costs’ persuasion to vote for it. Coming out of the farce that is brexit, if they can’t answer any of the questions that have been issues in the brexit separation then those voters are going to lean to remain.

you have your die hard nationalists an£ you have your die hard unionists. Then you have the majority like me who will vote for the outcome that makes them better off than the other outcome. Ignore that if you wish, but if you do be prepared to lose again as the remain parties will be hammering it.

Making people better off is what it’s all about. Ireland is now 50% richer than Scotland and the gap is growing. The reasons for that is they can make decisions that benefit their economic needs. Our decisions are often taken with the south of England in mind.


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[puff the dragon]

Making people better off is what it’s all about. Ireland is now 50% richer than Scotland and the gap is growing. The reasons for that is they can make decisions that benefit their economic needs. Our decisions are often taken with the south of England in mind.


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see - there’s a stat that means nothing presented like it’s fact.

50% richer in what context? Nobody knows the worth of Scotland outside the UK as it doesn’t exist. Who has come up with the value of Scotland to compare with the value of Ireland? What manipulation of the Scotland figure has occurred based on shared UK wealth? If the compiler of your fact was a nationalist he’s marked it down.

more likely however is that 50% figure has just been plucked from thin air b6 someone as it sounds good.

[Ozyhibby]

see - there’s a stat that means nothing presented like it’s fact.

50% richer in what context? Nobody knows the worth of Scotland outside the UK as it doesn’t exist. Who has come up with the value of Scotland to compare with the value of Ireland? What manipulation of the Scotland figure has occurred based on shared UK wealth? If the compiler of your fact was a nationalist he’s marked it down.

more likely however is that 50% figure has just been plucked from thin air b6 someone as it sounds good.

Ireland gdp per capita for 2018 was $77,450, a 12.34% increase from 2017.

Scotland GDP per capita$43,740 (including revenues from North Sea oil and gas)


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[puff the dragon]

Ireland gdp per capita for 2018 was $77,450, a 12.34% increase from 2017.

Scotland GDP per capita$43,740 (including revenues from North Sea oil and gas)


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GDP 😃

so they spend more which is compensated by earning more?

[puff the dragon]

Ireland gdp per capita for 2018 was $77,450, a 12.34% increase from 2017.

Scotland GDP per capita$43,740 (including revenues from North Sea oil and gas)


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to link to your brexit thread comment about negative interest rates.

so Ireland has a negative interest rate - therefore there is no benefit in people holding cash - people therefor spend their cash - the Irish government have stimulated the economy (short term) which has resulted in higher spending in industries and by consumers.

lets also not forget that while the independence uncertainty exists companies and individuals have a reluctance to invest in Scotland, which messes up our figure.

It’s a nice headline your 50% wealthier but we’ve just scratched the surface of the explain and it’s not too strong an argument. One governments policy is temporarily boosting GDP while the devolved Scottish governments policies are hurting ours.

but hey, Westminster and that..

[JeMeSouviens]

Could Wales beat us to it ...?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50013949

[cabbageandribs1875]

Could Wales beat us to it ...?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50013949



nope imo, i'm not so sure wales are ready for that quite yet, it's only the last year or so support for it has been rising, last poll(yeah i know) support for yes was between 25%-30%

[Callum_62]

nope imo, i'm not so sure wales are ready for that quite yet, it's only the last year or so support for it has been rising, last poll(yeah i know) support for yes was between 25%-30%Wasn't that where we were when got granted our ref?

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[cabbageandribs1875]

Wasn't that where we were when got granted our ref?

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i've no idea what we were at, i just do not think a yes vote in wales would reach the required percentage though admittedly it is rising, an icm poll in february put the yes vote at only 8%, september was 24% yes with 14% don't know, maybe some welsh members on here could give us a gauge of how things are :)

[Moulin Yarns]

New advertising campaign promoting an independent Scotland @ItsTimeScot launches its first billboards
#indyref2 https://t.co/rAjtDZeVW9 https://t.co/JFpoDuKfeO

[Moulin Yarns]

Tomorrow's front page: huge majority of Scots want indyref2 question to be Yes/No... plus four pages of preview ahead of the SNP conference 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 https://t.co/IVSCpv1sNI

[CloudSquall]

Latest Panelbase indy poll has it at 50/50, 54 - 46 in favour of independence if the choice is between indy in EU and No Deal Brexit.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/support-for-scottish-independence-hits-50-poll-suggests-38588985.html (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/support-for-scottish-independence-hits-50-poll-suggests-38588985.html)



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGt2Jn4WsAAlJsf?format=jpg&name=small


This is the highest support for Indy that Panelbase has had, was 49% in June.

Edit: Reading some more info from John Curtice's analysis, support for indy is the same at 32% amongst Scottish leave voters, but it's at 57% amongst Remain voters vs the average of last year's polls (6 point increase). There's been a 10 point increase in support for indy amongst those who didn't vote in the EU referendum vs last year's polls also.

[Ozyhibby]

Latest Panelbase indy poll has it at 50/50, 54 - 46 in favour of independence if the choice is between indy in EU and No Deal Brexit.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/support-for-scottish-independence-hits-50-poll-suggests-38588985.html (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/support-for-scottish-independence-hits-50-poll-suggests-38588985.html)



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGt2Jn4WsAAlJsf?format=jpg&name=small


This is the highest support for Indy that Panelbase has had, was 49% in June.

Edit: Reading some more info from John Curtice's analysis, support for indy is the same at 32% amongst Scottish leave voters, but it's at 57% amongst Remain voters vs the average of last year's polls (6 point increase). There's been a 10 point increase in support for indy amongst those who didn't vote in the EU referendum vs last year's polls also.

The 2nd part of the poll that shows a majority believe that we would be better of economically with independence is a big change. Shows the arguments are being won.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Catalonia/Barcelona tonight

2262522626https://scontent.fman2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72272094_2599976753385706_8638772222741184512_o.jp g?_nc_cat=105&_nc_oc=AQlVPePq12h1zbuDsueqlZoj_sKH_RsxUDqPVxHphTZ _Iiu-GEh5eNLCrGLmHDX8Idw&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-1.fna&oh=4ee4c7f0e7717c4a6ef87e029dcd3de4&oe=5E26CAEA22627

[Hibrandenburg]

I see nobody in Westminster wanted to hear Scotland's voice again tonight. What's the point in Scotland sending representatives to Westminster when the house empties exactly at the moment our reps get to speak?

[cabbageandribs1875]

I see nobody in Westminster wanted to hear Scotland's voice again tonight. What's the point in Scotland sending representatives to Westminster when the house empties exactly at the moment our reps get to speak?


including labour benches, i do hope we are in a position of them needing SNP politicians to help get the bearded one into power, then i very much hope Mhairi Black gets the job of giving the shower of ignorant *******s where to go with two middle fingers whilst showing them a video of their ignorance

[puff the dragon]

I see nobody in Westminster wanted to hear Scotland's voice again tonight. What's the point in Scotland sending representatives to Westminster when the house empties exactly at the moment our reps get to speak?

didn’t want to hear the SNP’s voice - the majority of Scotland’s voices were heard when the conservatives, labour and Lib Dem MP’s spoke at party level.

no point listening to the SNP - once Boris speaks all you need to do is work out the opposite and they’ll say it by default.

it’s a sad reflection of Scotland that a people who have produced outstanding parliamentarians like Rifkind, Cook, Kennedy and brown now have the empty vessel rabble taking their seats.

[Moulin Yarns]

didn’t want to hear the SNP’s voice - the majority of Scotland’s voices were heard when the conservatives, labour and Lib Dem MP’s spoke at party level.

no point listening to the SNP - once Boris speaks all you need to do is work out the opposite and they’ll say it by default.

it’s a sad reflection of Scotland that a people who have produced outstanding parliamentarians like Rifkind, Cook, Kennedy and brown now have the empty vessel rabble taking their seats.

Absolutely! Oh wait, are you saying that there is no respect for Scottish politicians at Westminster?

Who would think it.

**** Westminster and let's look after Scotland ourselves.

[Glory Lurker]

didn’t want to hear the SNP’s voice - the majority of Scotland’s voices were heard when the conservatives, labour and Lib Dem MP’s spoke at party level.

Scenes, Jeff. When was the last time the majority of UK voiced coincided with the party in power?

[SHODAN]

add the EU membership question to the list of answers they will need - not every nationalist that keen.

I imagine the government will accept our overwhelming 62% Remain vote as a mandate for accession to the EU.

[JimBHibees]

didn’t want to hear the SNP’s voice - the majority of Scotland’s voices were heard when the conservatives, labour and Lib Dem MP’s spoke at party level.

no point listening to the SNP - once Boris speaks all you need to do is work out the opposite and they’ll say it by default.

it’s a sad reflection of Scotland that a people who have produced outstanding parliamentarians like Rifkind, Cook, Kennedy and brown now have the empty vessel rabble taking their seats.

It is more a sad reflection that the parties who gave us your outstanding parliamentarians and some more out standing than others are now feeding us dregs like Ruth Davidson and Richard Leonard.

[Ozyhibby]

It is more a sad reflection that the parties who gave us your outstanding parliamentarians and some more out standing than others are now feeding us dregs like Ruth Davidson and Richard Leonard.

Let’s hope that is the quality of unionist we have to face come the next referendum.


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[Hibbyradge]

Let’s hope that is the quality of unionist we have to face come the next referendum.


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Davidson was a very good figurehead for the Tories. She was popular and pretty down to earth.

Just because you disagreed with her views doesn't mean she was low calibre.

She almost single handedly put the Tories back on the map in Scotland although, because that didn't sit right with folk who wanted to believe that Scottish people completely rejected the unionist party, they blamed Labour for collaborating with them. Dangerous tunnel vision that, imo.

She'll be a huge loss to the Tories.

Leopard heart on the other hand is as lightweight as they come. In Scotland too. Incredible.

[Fife-Hibee]

Brexit put the tories back on the map in Scotland. I’m not getting this high quality politician stuff regarding Ruth Davidson. I don’t recall a single interview where she seemed remotely competent. Her views changed day by day in accordance with the instructions being fed to her from the main HQ.

I’ve heard people fawn over her, while failing to give a single reason as to why they thought she was so influential. The Tory branch in Scotland had the British nationalist vote by default and will continue to do so regardless of the puppet branch leader.

[Ozyhibby]

Brexit put the tories back on the map in Scotland. I’m not getting this high quality politician stuff regarding Ruth Davidson. I don’t recall a single interview where she seemed remotely competent. Her views changed day by day in accordance with the instructions being fed to her from the main HQ.

I’ve heard people fawn over her, while failing to give a single reason as to why they thought she was so influential. The Tory branch in Scotland had the British nationalist vote by default and will continue to do so regardless of the puppet branch leader.

Agree 100%. Davidson had zero to offer in the way of policies or any sort of coherent vision for what Scotland should look like in the future. She was a populist who wrapped herself in the union flag. She was a died in the wool British nationalist. A role she will no doubt resume as head of better together 2.


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[RyeSloan]

Agree 100%. Davidson had zero to offer in the way of policies or any sort of coherent vision for what Scotland should look like in the future. She was a populist who wrapped herself in the union flag. She was a died in the wool British nationalist. A role she will no doubt resume as head of better together 2.


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Maybe so but there is no denying her tactics worked.

Like it or not Davidson resonated with voters and that’s the key thing a politician needs to succeed.

It’s also a bit odd to claim she had no vision of the future when we repeatedly get told the SNP can’t be responsible for the future vision of Indy Scotland as that will all be worked out after it happens.

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe so but there is no denying her tactics worked.

Like it or not Davidson resonated with voters and that’s the key thing a politician needs to succeed.

It’s also a bit odd to claim she had no vision of the future when we repeatedly get told the SNP can’t be responsible for the future vision of Indy Scotland as that will all be worked out after it happens.

My point is that she has not reinvigorated conservatism in Scotland, which she is often credited with doing. There is no great conservative idea which has carried her forward. All she done was become the go to person for unionism and British nationalism in Scotland. Labour and the Lib Dem’s were too shy to pull out the union flag at every opportunity where as Davidson grabbed the chance with both hands.
It’s identity politics that would make the SNP blush but they don’t have the luxury Davidson has because they have to govern.


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[RyeSloan]

My point is that she has not reinvigorated conservatism in Scotland, which she is often credited with doing. There is no great conservative idea which has carried her forward. All she done was become the go to person for unionism and British nationalism in Scotland. Labour and the Lib Dem’s were too shy to pull out the union flag at every opportunity where as Davidson grabbed the chance with both hands.
It’s identity politics that would make the SNP blush but they don’t have the luxury Davidson has because they have to govern.


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Yeah probably a fair enough comment [emoji736]

Either way it was effective but as you say probably wasn’t built on anything solid and we will likely see the support she built slip away alongside herself...

[CloudSquall]

Davidson's appeal was entirely built on the "Stauch loyal" following amongst the Murdo/Tomkins 1690 types and the Alistair Darling Labour types that bought into the "Ruth's sitting on a bull, what's she like?!" cheeky chappy pish that the Scottish media portrayed in almost North Korean-esque fashion.


No ideas, no policies, nothing above "I'm sticking it to the SNP".

It honestly infuriates me people actually bought into that nonsense without any sort of critical thinking.

Did her Scottish contingent at Westminster ever stand up to Johnson? What concessions did they get for Scotland? Square root of **** all.


Now she has shat it from actually having to answer hard hitting questions regarding Brexit and Boris Johnson and has decided to hide in the background until the opportunity to lead Better Together 2 comes up.


Grade A ****.

[Alex Trager]

Sturgeon calling for a ref next year.
She says they’re putting the legislation into place for it now and should have sorted for the start of next year.

Here we go.

[J-C]

During the Tory party leadership contest,Davidson jumped from one candidate to the next it was embarrassing.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/l3V0sMacveqaUXOCs/source.gif

[Moulin Yarns]

Scottish independence voting intention...

... "if the UK left the EU without an agreement on future trading arrangements - a "No Deal" Brexit":

"I would vote Yes": 54%
"I would vote No": 46%

via @Panelbase, 09 - 11 Oct

[GlesgaeHibby]

Scottish independence voting intention...

... "if the UK left the EU without an agreement on future trading arrangements - a "No Deal" Brexit":

"I would vote Yes": 54%
"I would vote No": 46%

via @Panelbase, 09 - 11 Oct

Staggering that 46% would want to remain attached to the disaster zone that a no-deal Brexit would be.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Staggering that 46% would want to remain attached to the disaster zone that a no-deal Brexit would be.

Indeed, hopefully we're heading in the correct direction though.

[Cataplana]

Indeed, hopefully we're heading in the correct direction though.

You would hope that a fair proportion of them are the type who have to see things with their own eyes, before believing how bad things are.

[CloudSquall]

I think around 30-35% of Scotland are your "staunch" types that will vote No no matter how bad things get.

[Ozyhibby]

The biggest group to be won over now are those who are not persuaded they will be better off, or at least no worse off in an independent Scotland. It’s a hard group to win over as they are naturally risk averse and a little pessimistic. But it has to be done.


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[heretoday]

I think around 30-35% of Scotland are your "staunch" types that will vote No no matter how bad things get.

Things might turn out OK though. Just saying.

[RyeSloan]

Things might turn out OK though. Just saying.

It’s an interesting point. On a headline view some things are not bad at all. High levels of employment, low unemployment, wages rising faster than inflation are just a few. I get that these figures mean little on a personal level and there is other metrics that can be used to show just how ‘bad’ things are but none the less if they were reversed you bet they would be getting shouted from the roof tops as further ‘bad’ evidence.

There is also a school of thought that if a semi sensible Brexit is achieved (an oxymoron to some I grant you!) that there is potentially a huge pent up demand in the UK economy that could see a wave of investment and the associated surge in the economy.

Such a scenario is actually one of the less heralded outcomes from the Treasuries crystal ball gazing and one where they envisage having to raise interest rates to cool the economy.

So in other words the absolute certainty that people seem to have placed on things only getting worse (certainly from an economic perspective) is anything but and we may (and I stress may!) actually be seeing a resurgent UK economy as a backdrop to any Indy campaign in 2020.

That said it could easily go the other way I suppose so we’ll all just have to wait and see what finally transpires from this farcical period of uncertainty.

I do wonder though, if some sort of stability / normality is achieved, just how much appetite people will have to jump into another huge bout of it with Indy.

[puff the dragon]

Polls, marches, speeches - all pointless.

the chances of another referendum being allowed - 0%. As far as the UK government are concerned it was given in 2014 and both sides signed the Edinburgh agreement (including a Mrs Sturgeon).

westminster have no reason to ever grant one and won’t for at least 50 years.

for that to change the SNP would need to return greater than 50% of a vote (not seats won) and that is highly unlikely. Even then, the UK government can still point to the Edinburgh agreement as rationale for refusal.

sure the fanatics will be raging (probably less than 10% of the electorate), but everyone else will just get on with life. To most, it’s not that important - they may vote leave if asked but if they are not asked they won’t let it bother them.

time to move on and accept reality lads - you’ll just get yourselves all worked up over something you can’t control.

[Hibbyradge]

It’s an interesting point. On a headline view some things are not bad at all. High levels of employment, low unemployment, wages rising faster than inflation are just a few. I get that these figures mean little on a personal level and there is other metrics that can be used to show just how ‘bad’ things are but none the less if they were reversed you bet they would be getting shouted from the roof tops as further ‘bad’ evidence.



That's a strange point to make. If my house was on fire, I'd be shouting about it (not from the rooftop, hopefully).. But it's not, so I'm not.

You're somehow criticising people for not criticising things that don't merit criticism.

[RyeSloan]

That's a strange point to make. If my house was on fire, I'd be shouting about it (not from the rooftop, hopefully).. But it's not, so I'm not.

You're somehow criticising people for not criticising things that don't merit criticism.

Where was I criticising anyone?

I was merely pointing out that there seems to be, on occasion, a narrative (often alongside support for Indy) that says everything is bad and can only get worse when in fact some of the standard metrics of such things suggest that’s maybe not entirely true.

[Ozyhibby]

Polls, marches, speeches - all pointless.

the chances of another referendum being allowed - 0%. As far as the UK government are concerned it was given in 2014 and both sides signed the Edinburgh agreement (including a Mrs Sturgeon).

westminster have no reason to ever grant one and won’t for at least 50 years.

for that to change the SNP would need to return greater than 50% of a vote (not seats won) and that is highly unlikely. Even then, the UK government can still point to the Edinburgh agreement as rationale for refusal.

sure the fanatics will be raging (probably less than 10% of the electorate), but everyone else will just get on with life. To most, it’s not that important - they may vote leave if asked but if they are not asked they won’t let it bother them.

time to move on and accept reality lads - you’ll just get yourselves all worked up over something you can’t control.

Where about in the Edinburgh agreement does it say there won’t be another vote?
If Westminster refuse another vote when there is a clear mandate then it will end up in the courts. There has to be a democratic route to self determination. We are signed up to all sorts of international laws and I’m certain the SNP know that.


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[Mon Dieu4]

Polls, marches, speeches - all pointless.

the chances of another referendum being allowed - 0%. As far as the UK government are concerned it was given in 2014 and both sides signed the Edinburgh agreement (including a Mrs Sturgeon).

westminster have no reason to ever grant one and won’t for at least 50 years.

for that to change the SNP would need to return greater than 50% of a vote (not seats won) and that is highly unlikely. Even then, the UK government can still point to the Edinburgh agreement as rationale for refusal.

sure the fanatics will be raging (probably less than 10% of the electorate), but everyone else will just get on with life. To most, it’s not that important - they may vote leave if asked but if they are not asked they won’t let it bother them.

time to move on and accept reality lads - you’ll just get yourselves all worked up over something you can’t control.

You keep going on about the electorate, percentages and that the majority of people in Scotland support other parties and don't want independence. The facts are that the independence parties have consistanly returned a vast majority of actual votes(the figure that counts) in elections

It's not for Westminster to say what we can and can't have, we should be able to have an independence referendum every year should we so choose and the election returns more votes for independence parties than not

If they go down your route of never allowing another referendum for countless years then that is a very dangerous game and will only make more resentment and play right into the SNP's hands

Within the next 25 years or so then there is only one outcome in this anyway, may as well get on board now

[cabbageandribs1875]

Brexit put the tories back on the map in Scotland. I’m not getting this high quality politician stuff regarding Ruth Davidson. I don’t recall a single interview where she seemed remotely competent. Her views changed day by day in accordance with the instructions being fed to her from the main HQ.

I’ve heard people fawn over her, while failing to give a single reason as to why they thought she was so influential. The Tory branch in Scotland had the British nationalist vote by default and will continue to do so regardless of the puppet branch leader.



this, 110% :agree: who the **** would vote for her other than a tory,

[cabbageandribs1875]

whatever happened to jimmy/john/james ? found yet another username ?

[Fife-Hibee]

Polls, marches, speeches - all pointless.

the chances of another referendum being allowed - 0%. As far as the UK government are concerned it was given in 2014 and both sides signed the Edinburgh agreement (including a Mrs Sturgeon).

westminster have no reason to ever grant one and won’t for at least 50 years.

for that to change the SNP would need to return greater than 50% of a vote (not seats won) and that is highly unlikely. Even then, the UK government can still point to the Edinburgh agreement as rationale for refusal.

sure the fanatics will be raging (probably less than 10% of the electorate), but everyone else will just get on with life. To most, it’s not that important - they may vote leave if asked but if they are not asked they won’t let it bother them.

time to move on and accept reality lads - you’ll just get yourselves all worked up over something you can’t control.

Would that be the same Edinburgh Agreement in which the terms were broken by "Better Together"?

If the chances of being "allowed" another referendum are 0%, then the chances of independence without a referendum are 100%.

[J-C]

Polls, marches, speeches - all pointless.

the chances of another referendum being allowed - 0%. As far as the UK government are concerned it was given in 2014 and both sides signed the Edinburgh agreement (including a Mrs Sturgeon).

westminster have no reason to ever grant one and won’t for at least 50 years.

for that to change the SNP would need to return greater than 50% of a vote (not seats won) and that is highly unlikely. Even then, the UK government can still point to the Edinburgh agreement as rationale for refusal.

sure the fanatics will be raging (probably less than 10% of the electorate), but everyone else will just get on with life. To most, it’s not that important - they may vote leave if asked but if they are not asked they won’t let it bother them.

time to move on and accept reality lads - you’ll just get yourselves all worked up over something you can’t control.

We already have a mandate for a referendum, it was in the SNP manifesto at the last Scottish elections and the Scottish Parliament voted for it, many lies were told and promises broken by the Better Together mob, this will go to the courts and we could very well see civil unrest if the UK parliament tries to stand in our way.

[Moulin Yarns]

Polls, marches, speeches - all pointless.

the chances of another referendum being allowed - 0%. As far as the UK government are concerned it was given in 2014 and both sides signed the Edinburgh agreement (including a Mrs Sturgeon).

westminster have no reason to ever grant one and won’t for at least 50 years.

for that to change the SNP would need to return greater than 50% of a vote (not seats won) and that is highly unlikely. Even then, the UK government can still point to the Edinburgh agreement as rationale for refusal.

sure the fanatics will be raging (probably less than 10% of the electorate), but everyone else will just get on with life. To most, it’s not that important - they may vote leave if asked but if they are not asked they won’t let it bother them.

time to move on and accept reality lads - you’ll just get yourselves all worked up over something you can’t control.




You know that the independence movement is not the same as the SNP! It's also the Scottish Green Party, some Labour, some LibDems and others who are not members of any party. There are even rangers fans who want independence.

The only identifiable group clearly against is the Conservative party.

[Callum_62]

Polls, marches, speeches - all pointless.

the chances of another referendum being allowed - 0%. As far as the UK government are concerned it was given in 2014 and both sides signed the Edinburgh agreement (including a Mrs Sturgeon).

westminster have no reason to ever grant one and won’t for at least 50 years.

for that to change the SNP would need to return greater than 50% of a vote (not seats won) and that is highly unlikely. Even then, the UK government can still point to the Edinburgh agreement as rationale for refusal.

sure the fanatics will be raging (probably less than 10% of the electorate), but everyone else will just get on with life. To most, it’s not that important - they may vote leave if asked but if they are not asked they won’t let it bother them.

time to move on and accept reality lads - you’ll just get yourselves all worked up over something you can’t control.Why would the UK Govt refuse? What's there rationale?

Surely if we were a burden and drain on there resources and with indy now at worst 50/50, they would only be too happy to grant us the chance to decide what we do with our own country

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[Moulin Yarns]

whatever happened to jimmy/john/james ? found yet another username ?

I know he said that he was fed up with the personal abuse he claimed that he was getting, but not giving.


He may have gone up in a Puff, but I don't know for sure.

[Slavers]

We already have a mandate for a referendum, it was in the SNP manifesto at the last Scottish elections and the Scottish Parliament voted for it, many lies were told and promises broken by the Better Together mob, this will go to the courts and we could very well see civil unrest if the UK parliament tries to stand in our way.

This is beginning to sound very brexiteer'ish.

[Callum_62]

This is beginning to sound very brexiteer'ish.Hardly, if the Scottish people continue to vote in pro indy govts and the UK Govt keeps denying the request for indy 2, we will quite rightly see protests of that im sure

The comparison between that and the UK Govt not getting 'brexit' done is a poor comparison, seeing as even Brexiteers differ on there view of what brexit actually is

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[Ozyhibby]

This is beginning to sound very brexiteer'ish.

If you take away peoples democratic rights, what do you think happens?
We should have the right to weekly votes if that’s what we vote for. That’s democracy.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

I know he said that he was fed up with the personal abuse he claimed that he was getting, but not giving.


He may have gone up in a Puff, but I don't know for sure.




:hilarious i'm not convinced yet, he did like to dish it out himself, then start crying if anyone else shouted 'boo' he's amongst us that's for sure, the mask will slip soon enough no doubt, but anyway, plaid cymru wanting a welsh referendum on the same day as the scottish one https://www.thenational.scot/news/17970828.plaid-cymru-push-joint-independence-referendum/


She added: “They have to grant another referendum for Scotland, what on earth would be their basis for not granting the same referendum for Wales?

[Slavers]

If you take away peoples democratic rights, what do you think happens?
We should have the right to weekly votes if that’s what we vote for. That’s democracy.


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And if Scotland votes leave UK in the referendum then the referendum result is ignored, the UK political and legal establishment does everything in it's power to reverse the decision and ignore the will of the people. When this occurs it will be an outrage to Scotland and democracy, right?

When all of this has happened after the result of the UK independence referendum, for some Scottish Nationalists that is all perfectly fine and any talk of civil unrest in relation to the referendum result not being honored is described as being the actions of racist little Englander morons who didnt know what they were voting for.

I have said it before independence will not be easy if it is allowed to happen at all, all those cheering how Brexit is being stopped will soon be crying on the other side of their face when Scottish Independence faces the same forces trying to stop it.

Really no independence is allowed.

[Moulin Yarns]

And if Scotland votes leave UK in the referendum then the referendum result is ignored, the UK political and legal establishment does everything in it's power to reverse the decision and ignore the will of the people. When this occurs it will be an outrage to Scotland and democracy, right?

When all of this has happened after the result of the UK independence referendum, for some Scottish Nationalists that is all perfectly fine and any talk of civil unrest in relation to the referendum result not being honored is described as being the actions of racist little Englander morons who didnt know what they were voting for.

I have said it before independence will not be easy if it is allowed to happen at all, all those cheering how Brexit is being stopped will soon be crying on the other side of their face when Scottish Independence faces the same forces trying to stop it.

Really no independence is allowed.

I must have missed when that happened :confused: The UK were seeking Independence from Which other Country? Which Country was imposing decisions against the 'will of the people'?

[Slavers]

I must have missed when that happened :confused: The UK were seeking Independence from Which other Country? Which Country was imposing decisions against the 'will of the people'?

The UK voted to leave the political union known as the EU. The one that has unelected bureaucrats making policy decisions and built their HQ resembling the towers of Babel.

The SNP want to remove Scotland from the UK political union. Where a peoples elected government is in charge of setting policy. If you don't like the government policy you can vote them out.

How do you have any control of the EU policy makers? In what process can the people remove the EU commissioners?

[WeeRussell]

The UK voted to leave the political union known as the EU. The one that has unelected bureaucrats making policy decisions and built their HQ resembling the towers of Babel.

The SNP want to remove Scotland from the UK political union. Where a peoples elected government is in charge of setting policy. If you don't like the government policy you can vote them out.

How do you have any control of the EU policy makers? In what process can the people remove the EU commissioners?

No we can't... it's one of the main foundations of the independence argument.

[Fife-Hibee]

And if Scotland votes leave UK in the referendum then the referendum result is ignored, the UK political and legal establishment does everything in it's power to reverse the decision and ignore the will of the people. When this occurs it will be an outrage to Scotland and democracy, right?

When all of this has happened after the result of the UK independence referendum, for some Scottish Nationalists that is all perfectly fine and any talk of civil unrest in relation to the referendum result not being honored is described as being the actions of racist little Englander morons who didnt know what they were voting for.

I have said it before independence will not be easy if it is allowed to happen at all, all those cheering how Brexit is being stopped will soon be crying on the other side of their face when Scottish Independence faces the same forces trying to stop it.

Really no independence is allowed.

I think you're fully aware that you're comparing apples with oranges here.

For starters. The "EU Referendum" (they never once refererred to it as a UK Independence Referendum) wasn't a legally binding referendum. There was nothing written into law which said the outcome had to be abided by.

Secondly, even if it had been written into law, there would have still been the ensuing confusion over what shape the outcome would actually take. Different brexiteers would give different reasons for wanting Brexit. Some would refer to immigration (even although the UK isn't part of the EU's 'Common European Asylum System'), meaning the UK Government had the power all along to curb the influx of migrants. Others would say it had nothing to do with immigrants and everything to do with the EU imposing their "awful" laws on the UK, despite not being able to name a single law. Then of course you have the "England defeated Germany" types who were born at least 20 years after WW2 and completely ignorant to the history that the whole of Europe had to play in that era.

Perhaps you can tell me what you were voting for? It would certainly enlighten me and many others on here i'm sure. What was your vision of Brexit Britain? Does that vision look like a reality now? Do you think every other brexiteer also shared that same vision?

[Fife-Hibee]

The UK voted to leave the political union known as the EU. The one that has unelected bureaucrats making policy decisions and built their HQ resembling the towers of Babel.

The SNP want to remove Scotland from the UK political union. Where a peoples elected government is in charge of setting policy. If you don't like the government policy you can vote them out.

How do you have any control of the EU policy makers? In what process can the people remove the EU commissioners?

Well that's not true. Boris Johnson was not elected by the people of Scotland, neither was Theresa May, or David Cameron. The people of Scotland can't simply "vote them out", because England is 10x larger than we are.

The EU doesn't have "unelected bureaucrats" either. The EU is made up of tiers and the highest tier are elected by the people that we elect. Their level of influence over anything going on here in Scotland pales in comparison to the influence Westminster has over Scotland by people elected by another country.

[Ozyhibby]

I think you're fully aware that you're comparing apples with oranges here.

For starters. The "EU Referendum" (they never once refererred to it as a UK Independence Referendum) wasn't a legally binding referendum. There was nothing written into law which said the outcome had to be abided by.

Secondly, even if it had been written into law, there would have still been the ensuing confusion over what shape the outcome would actually take. Different brexiteers would give different reasons for wanting Brexit. Some would refer to immigration (even although the UK isn't part of the EU's 'Common European Asylum System'), meaning the UK Government had the power all along to curb the influx of migrants. Others would say it had nothing to do with immigrants and everything to do with the EU imposing their "awful" laws on the UK, despite not being able to name a single law. Then of course you have the "England defeated Germany" types who were born at least 20 years after WW2 and completely ignorant to the history that the whole of Europe had to play in that era.

Perhaps you can tell me what you were voting for? It would certainly enlighten me and many others on here i'm sure. What was your vision of Brexit Britain? Does that vision look like a reality now? Do you think every other brexiteer also shared that same vision?

Not to mention the fact that the brexiteers themselves have voted against brexit three times. So if it’s not delivered then they perhaps have to look at themselves.


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[weecounty hibby]

Well that's not true. Boris Johnson was not elected by the people of Scotland, neither was Theresa May, or David Cameron. The people of Scotland can't simply "vote them out", because England is 10x larger than we are.

The EU doesn't have "unelected bureaucrats" either. The EU is made up of tiers and the highest tier are elected by the people that we elect. Their level of influence over anything going on here in Scotland pales in comparison to the influence Westminster has over Scotland by people elected by another country.
Boris Johnson was actually voted into the role of prime minister by the members of the conservative party. All 160,000 of them! It's even worse than you think when you see it like that! All this nonsense about unelected bureaucrats in the European parliament as well. What do folk think these lifelong civil servants are in Whitehall. Unelected bureaucrats!!!! And the guy running the show right now hasn't been elected to anything in his life, Dominic Cummings!!! Pish poor argument to hide behind xenophobia. We don't like listening to those foreigners so we'd rather just listen to our own British unelected bureaucrats and policy strategists

[cabbageandribs1875]

22630

:hilarious

[cabbageandribs1875]

No we can't... it's one of the main foundations of the independence argument.


i think the poster is only joking










surely :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

i think the poster is only joking










surely :rolleyes:

There are some right Slavers on here at times. 😉

[Mibbes Aye]

Hardly, if the Scottish people continue to vote in pro indy govts and the UK Govt keeps denying the request for indy 2, we will quite rightly see protests of that im sure

The comparison between that and the UK Govt not getting 'brexit' done is a poor comparison, seeing as even Brexiteers differ on there view of what brexit actually is

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The Scottish people voted very decisively against separation after electing a pro Indy govt, no?

[Callum_62]

The Scottish people voted very decisively against separation after electing a pro Indy govt, no?So what? Having the choice is the important part.

Or being denied that choice in this case

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[Mibbes Aye]

I know he said that he was fed up with the personal abuse he claimed that he was getting, but not giving.


He may have gone up in a Puff, but I don't know for sure.


:hilarious i'm not convinced yet, he did like to dish it out himself, then start crying if anyone else shouted 'boo' he's amongst us that's for sure, the mask will slip soon enough no doubt, but anyway, plaid cymru wanting a welsh referendum on the same day as the scottish one https://www.thenational.scot/news/17970828.plaid-cymru-push-joint-independence-referendum/


She added: “They have to grant another referendum for Scotland, what on earth would be their basis for not granting the same referendum for Wales?



I don’t know who he is and sure as hell he comes from a different political perspective than me, but the hounding he got, from some posters in particular, was embarrassing to read.

If you want debate, then debate. If you want to sling mud and insults then it says more about you than it does about someone who challenged you and your belief system.

And you could only respond with personal attacks, belittling the poster. Poor and petty stuff, but sadly illustrative.

[Ozyhibby]

The Scottish people voted very decisively against separation after electing a pro Indy govt, no?

Absolutely. And so long as the SNP and green stand on a platform of holding another vote then they are entitled to do so if they win that election. They won the last election so the have a mandate to bring another vote. People have the right to vote against independence again if they so wish.
That’s democracy.


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[Mibbes Aye]

So what? Having the choice is the important part.

Or being denied that choice in this case

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The Scottish people were given the choice. Do we have to have referenda every week because the resentful minority lost the vote and the toys are out the cot?

[DaveF]

I don’t know who he is and sure as hell he comes from a different political perspective than me, but the hounding he got, from some posters in particular, was embarrassing to read.

If you want debate, then debate. If you want to sling mud and insults then it says more about you than it does about someone who challenged you and your belief system.

And you could only respond with personal attacks, belittling the poster. Poor and petty stuff, but sadly illustrative.

He gave out plenty as well.

[Callum_62]

The Scottish people were given the choice. Do we have to have referenda every week because the resentful minority lost the vote and the toys are out the cot?No, we have referdum based on the clear mandate as explicitly explained by our chosen govt

Why would the UK gov have the power to decide when enough time has passed since we had that choice, therefore granting us the option to possibly change or minds on something; Surely that should be our own elected Govt with that power

We had 3 votes on May's deal within about a month or so, sure as hell we can have a vote on a indy considering the change in landscape since 2014

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[Mibbes Aye]

He gave out plenty as well.

Do you think?

I think most of the time, he took an onslaught from several posters who either personalised things and threw abuse at him or consistently were on his back about what he said, demanding all sorts of evidence, despite the fact they never offered much themselves.

And most of the time he was responding factually or objectively.

Not one of .net’s finer moments, and the reading of the threads backs that up.

[Mibbes Aye]

No, we have referdum based on the clear mandate as explicitly explained by our chosen govt

Why would the UK gov have the power to decide when enough time has passed since we had that choice, therefore granting us the option to possibly change or minds on something; Surely that should be our own elected Govt with that power

We had 3 votes on May's deal within about a month or so, sure as hell we can have a vote on a indy considering the change in landscape since 2014

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Our chosen government, in terms of mandate, is the U.K. government. Do you actually have a vote in the U.K.? Like it or lump it, them’s the rules

I didn’t vote for Boris or Theresa but the fact of the matter is that a referendum is within the remit of Westminster, which seems fair enough. I didn’t hear the SNP complaining about Westminster when they got their fifty MPs and started all their fun and games, sitting in different seats and clapping etc. Funnily enough, they all seem to have calmed down a bit and are now happily following Commons procedures and filling in their no doubt lucrative expenses claims :wink:

[Bristolhibby]

The Scottish people were given the choice. Do we have to have referenda every week because the resentful minority lost the vote and the toys are out the cot?

If that’s what the people want and they elect their representatives to deliver that. Then yes.

Democracy really isn’t that hard to understand.

2014 was 5 years ago.

J

[Mibbes Aye]

If that’s what the people want and they elect their representatives to deliver that. Then yes.

Democracy really isn’t that hard to understand.

2014 was 5 years ago.

J

I see.

More than a million Scots voted for Brexit as part of a U.K. majority vote to leave, whether you or I like it or not.

At least a third of SNP voters voted for Brexit based on reliable polls.

Most Scots didn’t vote for independence, didn’t vote for the SNP and didn’t vote for Brexit.

I think I am getting the hang of this democracy thing :wink:

[Callum_62]

Most Scots didn’t vote for independence, didn’t vote for the SNP and didn’t vote for Brexit.

I think I am getting the hang of this democracy thing :wink:

Youve just nailed why we should independent

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[Mibbes Aye]

Youve just nailed why we should independent

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Why we ‘should independent’ what? :greengrin

I feel like a stuck record, but give me a sensible case that isn’t based on resentment or grievance and has some answers to those tricky questions that were asked countless times by other unconvinced posters.

Then I might consider my vote.

I nearly posted a night or two ago but held back, because there were a couple of posts, back-to-back from posters who we all know are Indy that were pure grievance. That’s never going to win anyone over.

Do you guys just not get it?!!!

[Ozyhibby]

To avoid any further referendum is easy. Get a unionist party voted into government at Holyrood.
A minority of people voted conservative in 2015 but it was enough to return a conservative govt and they held a referendum on leaving the EU. They were perfectly entitled to as it was in their manifesto. It’s the same with the SNP. They said they wanted to hold another referendum if circumstances changed (they gave an example of Scotland being asked to leave the EU even if it did not vote for it) and the people of Scotland promptly voted them back into power. And here we are, about to have another vote.


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[Mibbes Aye]

To avoid any further referendum is easy. Get a unionist party voted into government at Holyrood.
A minority of people voted conservative in 2015 but it was enough to return a conservative govt and they held a referendum on leaving the EU. They were perfectly entitled to as it was in their manifesto. It’s the same with the SNP. They said they wanted to hold another referendum if circumstances changed (they gave an example of Scotland being asked to leave the EU even if it did not vote for it) and the people of Scotland promptly voted them back into power. And here we are, about to have another vote.


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Is a referendum not within the mandate of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, at Westminster? Them’s the rules that we signed up to, as far as I believe.

[1875godsgift]

I see.

More than a million Scots voted for Brexit as part of a U.K. majority vote to leave, whether you or I like it or not.

At least a third of SNP voters voted for Brexit based on reliable polls.

Most Scots didn’t vote for independence, didn’t vote for the SNP and didn’t vote for Brexit.

I think I am getting the hang of this democracy thing :wink:

More than 1.6 million Scots voted to remain as part of a UK majority vote to leave.

2/3rds of SNP voters voted to remain as part of a UK majority to leave.

A majority of the UK population didn't vote for Independence, didn't vote for the SNP but did vote for Brexit.

I wonder where this will lead us? :I'm waiti

[Bristolhibby]

Is a referendum not within the mandate of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, at Westminster? Them’s the rules that we signed up to, as far as I believe.

And how do we change those rules pray tell?

It’s a farce that the elected parliament of Scotland has to go to Westminster to ask permission to decide its own destiny.

Surely you can see how perverse that is?

J

[Mibbes Aye]

More than 1.6 million Scots voted to remain as part of a UK majority vote to leave.

2/3rds of SNP voters voted to remain as part of a UK majority to leave.

A majority of the UK population didn't vote for Independence, didn't vote for the SNP but did vote for Brexit.

I wonder where this will lead us? :I'm waiti

90% of the U.K. population don’t get a vote on the SNP or a Scottish independence referendum?

[Mibbes Aye]

And how do we change those rules pray tell?

It’s a farce that the elected parliament of Scotland has to go to Westminster to ask permission to decide its own destiny.

Surely you can see how perverse that is?

J

Please explain why?

Feel free to cite legal or constitutional precedent, or even just the law and the facts of the matter!

I am not immune to persuasion but for goodness’s sake, give me a reason to believe you!

[Fife-Hibee]

I feel like a stuck record

Oh, you are.

You think that it's "fair enough" that another country decides whether this country has a choice whether to leave a political "union" with them or not. You don't even try to hide your imperialistic nature on here.

[Fife-Hibee]

Is a referendum not within the mandate of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, at Westminster? Them’s the rules that we signed up to, as far as I believe.

"We". Who is this "we" that you refer to? :confused:

[Mibbes Aye]

Oh, you are.

You think that it's "fair enough" that another country decides whether this country has a choice whether to leave a political "union" with them or not. You don't even try to hide your imperialistic nature on here.

Ooh, fancy! If you don’t have a telling point to make then you can always accuse someone of having an imperialistic nature.

Mind you, it must be at #236 on the list of guid criticisms :greengrin.

Have you been binge-watching ‘Catherine the Great’ on Netflix or just reading lots of Victorian literature?

[Fife-Hibee]

Ooh, fancy! If you don’t have a telling point to make then you can always accuse someone of having an imperialistic nature.

Mind you, it must be at #236 on the list of guid criticisms :greengrin.

Have you been binge-watching ‘Catherine the Great’ on Netflix or just reading lots of Victorian literature?

I just made a perfectly valid telling point. Do you, or do you not think that it's ok for another country to decide whether Scotland has control over it's own future or not?

Well you've already made your answer clear on that one.

[Mibbes Aye]

"We". Who is this "we" that you refer to? :confused:

I understand that we entered into a Union with England some time ago.

The ‘we’ represents the legal agreement signed up to, as opposed to the ‘we’ flouted about by separatists who speak, it would seem, for a minority. As the polls showed.

[Mibbes Aye]

I just made a perfectly valid telling point. Do you, or do you not think that it's ok for another country to decide whether Scotland has control over it's own future or not?

Well you've already made your answer clear on that one.

Ask a question, then tell me my answer :confused:

I can see you are back with a vengeance.

Have you answered any of the outstanding questions from marinello59 or me, on previous threads where you scarpered when caught short? And don’t dare ask me to dig them back out for you. M59 called you out at least twice, as did I, and you ran away. You know fine.

Let us add to the list, what is my ‘imperialistic nature’?

And you talk about another country, but it isn’t another country, it is a parliament made up of people from many different and variant parts of four different nations. To try and present it as anything else is a falsehood.

[The Modfather]

Is a referendum not within the mandate of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, at Westminster? Them’s the rules that we signed up to, as far as I believe.

I’ve never seen you make the point that the rest of the EU never got to vote on whether the UK should have a referendum to leave the EU or not. I think you’re being deliberately obtuse to a point. Scotland is returning a government with a clear policy for a second referendum. If we got independence and a government was voted in with a policy to have a referendum on re-joining the UK that’s what we should have as that’s what the people are voting for.

It can’t work both ways, the UK gets to decide to leave the EU or not with no say from the EU other than the exit deal, but Scotland signed up to the union hundreds of years ago so whether Scotland gets a second vote to leave the UK is a decision for Scotland, England, Wales & Northern Ireland that should be made at Westminster.

[Just Alf]

For those pushing back on a 2nd indy referendum, it adds to the antidemocratic argument (that worked for Brexit in some cases) and will move some people in the middle a little nearer a leave view.

On the other hand, Westminster agreeing to one blows that particular argument out the water, the biggest benefit though is, assuming a successful campaign and its a 'no', the appetite for a follow up referendum would be kicked quite far down the road as folks are generally getting tired of all the politicking.





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[Jack]

Please explain why?

Feel free to cite legal or constitutional precedent, or even just the law and the facts of the matter!

I am not immune to persuasion but for goodness’s sake, give me a reason to believe you!

As far as I'm aware it works like this ...

Independence parties stand on a manifesto that includes an independence referendum.

These parties win the election.

The Scottish Government then ask for S30 from the UK Government.

The S30 should be granted.

If it's not international law around the right to self determination kicks in.

[Callum_62]

Why we ‘should independent’ what? :greengrin

I feel like a stuck record, but give me a sensible case that isn’t based on resentment or grievance and has some answers to those tricky questions that were asked countless times by other unconvinced posters.

Then I might consider my vote.

I nearly posted a night or two ago but held back, because there were a couple of posts, back-to-back from posters who we all know are Indy that were pure grievance. That’s never going to win anyone over.

Do you guys just not get it?!!!It's you that doesn't get it

Yes voter or no voter, the right to chose should be held by the government that the country (and yes, Scotland is a country) voted in

Its a nonsense to have to be granted permission by a centralised Govt who in most causes returns a Govt that Scotland didn't vote for

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[Smartie]

For those pushing back on a 2nd indy referendum, it adds to the antidemocratic argument (that worked for Brexit in some cases) and will move some people in the middle a little nearer a leave view.

On the other hand, Westminster agreeing to one blows that particular argument out the water, the biggest benefit though is, assuming a successful campaign and its a 'no', the appetite for a follow up referendum would be kicked quite far down the road as folks are generally getting tired of all the politicking.





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Even as a fairly passionate "yes" voter, I don't think that would be all that bad an outcome. We'd have chosen our path, we couldn't really argue with the legitimacy of the decision, we couldn't argue we hadn't been given a couple of bites at it and we could then get on with what Scotland has democratically chosen to do. Or just get the hell out of Scotland.

Post-Brexit and until the next referendum (whenever it may be) there is just an uneasy feeling of unfinished business - the goalposts have moved greatly since 2014.

I'd probably be less comfortable with a 50.01% victory for the seismic change of "yes" than it actually being put to bed the other way.

[Callum_62]

Am I correct in saying the only countries in the world that would have to go to a centralised government that has vastly more representation of another country to get there permission for something like self determination is Scotland, Wales and NI?

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[danhibees1875]

And you talk about another country, but it isn’t another country, it is a parliament made up of people from many different and variant parts of four different nations. To try and present it as anything else is a falsehood.

That's correct, and the idea behind the narrative that "another country is stopping us deciding" would appear to try to shift the conversation to some sort of "Scotland v England" thing which doesn't do the arguement any justice. The real question is why it's down to the union of countries to decide (particularly when it's pro rated by population) and not simply the individual country?

I can't think of a good reason for that beyond "because that's just how it is". :dunno:

[SHODAN]

The Scottish people were given the choice. Do we have to have referenda every week because the resentful minority lost the vote and the toys are out the cot?

We voted to give the Union one last chance and then they came back and threw up Brexit all over the carpet.

If we didn't vote to leave the EU then I (and probably a big enough proportion of the people who voted Yes) would have been fine shelving the issue "for a generation" - I've always been more pro-EU than I am pro-independence and I imagine many are in the same boat, including No-voting EU nationals in 2014. The dynamic has completely changed and that merits another vote.

[Ozyhibby]

Please explain why?

Feel free to cite legal or constitutional precedent, or even just the law and the facts of the matter!

I am not immune to persuasion but for goodness’s sake, give me a reason to believe you!

While I myself am no legal eagle it does appear like the SNP do have some expertise on legal matter and appear quite adept at explaining to the Westminster govt what they can and can’t do. I’m almost certain the plan is to ask for the S30 order and when it is refused to immediately head for the courthouse. It’s entirely possible that the rules we signed up to are in contradiction to some other rules we signed up to?


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[Ozyhibby]

We voted to give the Union one last chance and then they came back and threw up Brexit all over the carpet.

If we didn't vote to leave the EU then I (and probably a big enough proportion of the people who voted Yes) would have been fine shelving the issue "for a generation" - I've always been more pro-EU than I am pro-independence and I imagine many are in the same boat, including No-voting EU nationals in 2014. The dynamic has completely changed and that merits another vote.

Yip. Only the Brexit vote could have got us back to a 2nd indyref so quickly. No chance would they have the poll numbers for independence without it. In my opinion there is a lot more work to be done in presenting the economic case for independence before we go into a campaign and it appears to be getting neglected so far (not for me, I think the economic case is sound but for other more pessimistic people).


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[Fife-Hibee]

Ask a question, then tell me my answer :confused:

I didn't tell you what your answer was, you already answered it yourself.


Let us add to the list, what is my ‘imperialistic nature’?

The idea that you hold that because a handful of unelected men over 300 years ago were bribed into signing a sectarian, fascist, racist treaty (I seriously suggest you take the time to read it), that it somehow justifies the idea that Scotland shouldn't have the choice when to decide it's own sovereignty in 2019.

It's nothing short of imperialistic.


I can see you are back with a vengeance.

You're damn right I am.


Have you answered any of the outstanding questions from marinello59 or me, on previous threads where you scarpered when caught short? And don’t dare ask me to dig them back out for you. M59 called you out at least twice, as did I, and you ran away. You know fine.

If they're so important to you, i'm sure you can remember what these things are?


And you talk about another country, but it isn’t another country, it is a parliament made up of people from many different and variant parts of four different nations. To try and present it as anything else is a falsehood.

It's a parliament of 650 MPs, where 59 of them are elected by Scotland and 591 of them have other political interests. This means Scotland could theoretically return 59 pro-independence MPs and it wouldn't matter at all, because those views don't serve the interests of the MPs that serve England, Wales and Northern Ireland. So 100% of the MPs Scotland sends to Westminster can generally be ignored in place of the status quo. Which is perfectly fine in the mind of an imperialist.

[Mibbes Aye]

I’ve never seen you make the point that the rest of the EU never got to vote on whether the UK should have a referendum to leave the EU or not. I think you’re being deliberately obtuse to a point. Scotland is returning a government with a clear policy for a second referendum. If we got independence and a government was voted in with a policy to have a referendum on re-joining the UK that’s what we should have as that’s what the people are voting for.

It can’t work both ways, the UK gets to decide to leave the EU or not with no say from the EU other than the exit deal, but Scotland signed up to the union hundreds of years ago so whether Scotland gets a second vote to leave the UK is a decision for Scotland, England, Wales & Northern Ireland that should be made at Westminster.

It is not obtuse. You are conflating two different things. One is the view of a government that won enough seats to govern, one is a view of the electorate in a referendum.

My point is merely factual - the SNP does not have the legitimacy to call a referendum as things stand. Whether one happens or not, and whatever the result, that is the case here and now.

[Mibbes Aye]

As far as I'm aware it works like this ...

Independence parties stand on a manifesto that includes an independence referendum.

These parties win the election.

The Scottish Government then ask for S30 from the UK Government.

The S30 should be granted.

If it's not international law around the right to self determination kicks in.

We had a plebiscite on ‘self-determination’. It was soundly rejected.

[Mibbes Aye]

It's you that doesn't get it

Yes voter or no voter, the right to chose should be held by the government that the country (and yes, Scotland is a country) voted in

Its a nonsense to have to be granted permission by a centralised Govt who in most causes returns a Govt that Scotland didn't vote for

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Most Scots didn’t vote for the SNP at Holyrood. Do you see your contradiction?

[Mibbes Aye]

We voted to give the Union one last chance and then they came back and threw up Brexit all over the carpet.

If we didn't vote to leave the EU then I (and probably a big enough proportion of the people who voted Yes) would have been fine shelving the issue "for a generation" - I've always been more pro-EU than I am pro-independence and I imagine many are in the same boat, including No-voting EU nationals in 2014. The dynamic has completely changed and that merits another vote.

That is subjective and misleading language.

The referendum vote wasn’t about giving the Union ‘one last chance’, it was about nationalists wanting to make the case for a separate Scotttish state. They failed, as has been dissected on here ad nauseam






​

[Mibbes Aye]

While I myself am no legal eagle it does appear like the SNP do have some expertise on legal matter and appear quite adept at explaining to the Westminster govt what they can and can’t do. I’m almost certain the plan is to ask for the S30 order and when it is refused to immediately head for the courthouse. It’s entirely possible that the rules we signed up to are in contradiction to some other rules we signed up to?


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If the SNP had expertise on legal matters one would have to question why they introduced a law on hospital waiting times that has been broken more than 150,000 times?

[Mon Dieu4]

Most Scots didn’t vote for the SNP at Holyrood. Do you see your contradiction?

They got 46% of the vote so got awfully close to most people voting for them though

[Mibbes Aye]

I didn't tell you what your answer was, you already answered it yourself.



The idea that you hold that because a handful of unelected men over 300 years ago were bribed into signing a sectarian, fascist, racist treaty (I seriously suggest you take the time to read it), that it somehow justifies the idea that Scotland shouldn't have the choice when to decide it's own sovereignty in 2019.

It's nothing short of imperialistic.



You're damn right I am.



If they're so important to you, i'm sure you can remember what these things are?



It's a parliament of 650 MPs, where 59 of them are elected by Scotland and 591 of them have other political interests. This means Scotland could theoretically return 59 pro-independence MPs and it wouldn't matter at all, because those views don't serve the interests of the MPs that serve England, Wales and Northern Ireland. So 100% of the MPs Scotland sends to Westminster can generally be ignored in place of the status quo. Which is perfectly fine in the mind of an imperialist.

Why would the remaining 90% of MPs have common purpose?

Kate Hoey doesn’t agree with Tom Watson, they are in the same party.

The Conservatives withdrew the whip from a couple of dozen faithful because they don’t agree.

Luciana Berger et al left their party because they don’t agree with Corbyn.

Sinn Féin disagree with the DUP on lots of things, don’t they?

Some of them will coincide with SNP and other Scottish MPs, sometimes but sometimes not.. We have seen with he transgender debate that the SNP is riven.

You like to generalise but it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

[Ozyhibby]

It is not obtuse. You are conflating two different things. One is the view of a government that won enough seats to govern, one is a view of the electorate in a referendum.

My point is merely factual - the SNP does not have the legitimacy to call a referendum as things stand. Whether one happens or not, and whatever the result, that is the case here and now.

Which is why it’s not been called. There is a process to go through. And when all that is done, there will be a referendum.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Which is why it’s not been called. There is a process to go through. And when all that is done, there will be a referendum.


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Yes, and with an increased chance of a Yes vote I suspect, which is fair enough. Though there’s many a slip ‘twixt the cup and the lip.

[Fife-Hibee]

Why would the remaining 90% of MPs have common purpose?

They wouldn't. They represent their own regions. Regions which are obviously going to have zero interest in Scottish Independence, seeing as they're not in Scotland. Making it utterly ridiculous to suggest that the choice over whether Scotland should be 'allowed' to have a referendum or not should be influenced by them.

For someone who claims to be pro-devolution and localization, you don't half contradict yourself over this particular issue. You're pro-centralization when it suits.


Kate Hoey doesn’t agree with Tom Watson, they are in the same party.

Your point being? Kate Hoey will try to represent her constituents as best as possible, as will Tom Watson.

My point is that every single constituency in Scotland could return pro-independence MPs and it wouldn't matter just because MPs in another country who don't represent constituents in Scotland don't want Scotland to leave the UK. How can that be acceptable?


The Conservatives withdrew the whip from a couple of dozen faithful because they don’t agree.

Luciana Berger et al left their party because they don’t agree with Corbyn.

Sinn Féin disagree with the DUP on lots of things, don’t they?

Some of them will coincide with SNP and other Scottish MPs, sometimes but sometimes not.. We have seen with he transgender debate that the SNP is riven.

You like to generalise but it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Yes, parties have their own internal disagreements. But where an internal disagreement doesn't exist is within the SNP over the issue of Scottish Independence in which they are all in favour of. Which is why it's utterly ludicrous that Scotland finds itself in a situation where it could return 59 out of 59 SNP MPs to Westminster only to be told by a far greater number of MPs who represent constituencies outside of Scotland that Scotland doesn't have the right when to decide if it wishes to remain in the UK or not.

[Just Alf]

Even as a fairly passionate "yes" voter, I don't think that would be all that bad an outcome. We'd have chosen our path, we couldn't really argue with the legitimacy of the decision, we couldn't argue we hadn't been given a couple of bites at it and we could then get on with what Scotland has democratically chosen to do. Or just get the hell out of Scotland.

Post-Brexit and until the next referendum (whenever it may be) there is just an uneasy feeling of unfinished business - the goalposts have moved greatly since 2014.

I'd probably be less comfortable with a 50.01% victory for the seismic change of "yes" than it actually being put to bed the other way.100% agreed


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[CloudSquall]

Why does the SNP not have legitimacy to call a referendum?

Pro indy majority at Holyrood, pro indy majority at Westminster, what am I missing?

[Ozyhibby]

Yes, and with an increased chance of a Yes vote I suspect, which is fair enough. Though there’s many a slip ‘twixt the cup and the lip.

Your more confident than I am.[emoji3]
The SNP have not done nearly enough work on the currency issue. Balance that out by BT2 having a much smaller talent pool to pick from this time and I think the campaigns start level pegging. What happens with brexit could swing it either way, and maybe not the way people think.


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[Fife-Hibee]

Why does the SNP not have legitimacy to call a referendum?

Pro indy majority at Holyrood, pro indy majority at Westminster, what am I missing?

Because for some rather strange reason, there are people who believe that the 90% or so of MPs at Westminister who don't represent Scottish constituencies should all have an equal say over if/when it is ok for Scotland to decide over it's own sovereignty. :confused:

They are so ingrained in their own personal anti-independence bias, that they're happy for non representatives of Scottish residents to stand in the way of Scotland ever having another say over the issue, even if the right to have that choice has the strongest possible democratic merit.

They're prepared to manipulate the very definition of democracy to prevent a potential majority from ever being heard.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/blocking-indyref2-indefinitely-is-unsustainable-think-tank-warns-1-5028372/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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[ronaldo7]

He gave out plenty as well.

Yup. Couldn't take it back though. Changed his user name, and tried to stay under cover, but his posting style shone through.

His use of the ignore button was a threat to be used, and rescinded as quickly as Andy Murray's return of serve.

Some posters will have you believe he was hounded out. Another .net myth grows arms and legs.

[mjhibby]

Your more confident than I am.[emoji3]
The SNP have not done nearly enough work on the currency issue. Balance that out by BT2 having a much smaller talent pool to pick from this time and I think the campaigns start level pegging. What happens with brexit could swing it either way, and maybe not the way people think.


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Brexit has really shown how farcical Westminster is so I'm sure there are loads who were no are now very much in favour of independence. That's what I'm seeing anyway. Surprisingly a lot of folk over 55 thinking this as well. Johnson has managed to pee off a helluva lot of folk. We'll fine Boris. He's the best advert for independence.

[Ozyhibby]

Brexit has really shown how farcical Westminster is so I'm sure there are loads who were no are now very much in favour of independence. That's what I'm seeing anyway. Surprisingly a lot of folk over 55 thinking this as well. Johnson has managed to pee off a helluva lot of folk. We'll fine Boris. He's the best advert for independence.

The over 55’s need a flat out bribe like bringing UK pensions up to the EU average and a cast iron rock will melt with the sun guarantee that there will be no more changes to the retirement age. The UK govt won’t be able to match this.


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[ronaldo7]

The over 55’s need a flat out bribe like bringing UK pensions up to the EU average and a cast iron rock will melt with the sun guarantee that there will be no more changes to the retirement age. The UK govt won’t be able to match this.


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Discussed at the recent SNP conference. 👍.

[Moulin Yarns]

Because for some rather strange reason, there are people who believe that the 90% or so of MPs at Westminister who don't represent Scottish constituencies should all have an equal say over if/when it is ok for Scotland to decide over it's own sovereignty. :confused:

They are so ingrained in their own personal anti-independence bias, that they're happy for non representatives of Scottish residents to stand in the way of Scotland ever having another say over the issue, even if the right to have that choice has the strongest possible democratic merit.

They're prepared to manipulate the very definition of democracy to prevent a potential majority from ever being heard.

Considering that the first thing David Cameron did was to bring in EVEL, you would imagine that it would be possible to turn that on it's head and the decision on the S30 should only be taken by Scottish MPs. 😁

[Moulin Yarns]

Pat Kane

Is Scots indy option to be subsumed in a tidal wave of UK exceptionalism? As UK-EU deal clamps down, Scottish demands 4 European continuity a massive irritant to prevailing elites. If there’s been any value in SNPGov remainerism, esp. with soft No’s, it has to be cashed in soon.

[Mon Dieu4]

Don't know which thread to put this on but Dr Phillipa Whitford has come over very well on Question Time tonight, first real time I've seen her get real TV time, the SNP should use her more on these kind of shows, she seems less abrasive than the likes of Blackford or Cherry

[The Harp Awakes]

Don't know which thread to put this on but Dr Phillipa Whitford has come over very well on Question Time tonight, first real time I've seen her get real TV time, the SNP should use her more on these kind of shows, she seems less abrasive than the likes of Blackford or Cherry

Yes, she was very impressive indeed, as she was on the debate show on BBC Scotland a week ago. She was very well received by the Leicester audience, which is a feat in itself as SNP politicians tend not to get a good reception with QT audiences outside Scotland.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I don’t know who he is and sure as hell he comes from a different political perspective than me, but the hounding he got, from some posters in particular, was embarrassing to read.

If you want debate, then debate. If you want to sling mud and insults then it says more about you than it does about someone who challenged you and your belief system.

And you could only respond with personal attacks, belittling the poster. Poor and petty stuff, but sadly illustrative.



https://media.tenor.com/images/d3eea4dec2b822c335b966419e1f475f/tenor.gif

[cabbageandribs1875]

Don't know which thread to put this on but Dr Phillipa Whitford has come over very well on Question Time tonight, first real time I've seen her get real TV time, the SNP should use her more on these kind of shows, she seems less abrasive than the likes of Blackford or Cherry


Yes, she was very impressive indeed, as she was on the debate show on BBC Scotland a week ago. She was very well received by the Leicester audience, which is a feat in itself as SNP politicians tend not to get a good reception with QT audiences outside Scotland.


she's hoping to get re-elected for central ayrshire, always leaves a good impression on TV discussions etc

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/re-elect-dr-philippa?fbclid=IwAR0hxbasGhSxlZnc_Xidlak4rJFESoKH Nw8KwRUpdCqXMqMkpObn83VtjLI


i don't know why but i just can't take to ian blackford when he talks in the commons but i do like listening to him when getting interviewed on sky etc

[Mibbes Aye]

https://media.tenor.com/images/d3eea4dec2b822c335b966419e1f475f/tenor.gif

You are very honest in your self-awareness.

Was it you who screenshotted some NHS stat and portrayed it as a positive? Then I explained why it wasn’t and you never had the courage or knowledge to reply or defend why you posted it in the first place?

Screen shots and memes are great, sometimes funny, but if you don’t have the argument to back your point up you should maybe let it be.

[1875godsgift]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/blocking-indyref2-indefinitely-is-unsustainable-think-tank-warns-1-5028372/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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Pamela Nash, chief executive of Scotland in Union, said: “We voted to remain in the UK in 2014 and we meant it. We were promised the result of that divisive contest would be respected and it would stand for a ‘generation’.
“The very last thing that Scotland needs now, amid the Brexit turmoil, is more division, more uncertainty, and more economic harm with a second ‘Scexit’ referendum.

Scexit - what a horrible word. Hopefully it will become common parlance among the Better Together campaign, because it will surely be their downfall.

Everything else she says can absolutely be ripped to shreds too.

[Ozyhibby]

Pamela Nash, chief executive of Scotland in Union, said: “We voted to remain in the UK in 2014 and we meant it. We were promised the result of that divisive contest would be respected and it would stand for a ‘generation’.
“The very last thing that Scotland needs now, amid the Brexit turmoil, is more division, more uncertainty, and more economic harm with a second ‘Scexit’ referendum.

Scexit - what a horrible word. Hopefully it will become common parlance among the Better Together campaign, because it will surely be their downfall.

Everything else she says can absolutely be ripped to shreds too.

We can only pray Pamela Nash has a prominent role in BT2. We would never be that lucky though.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

You are very honest in your self-awareness.

Was it you who screenshotted some NHS stat and portrayed it as a positive? Then I explained why it wasn’t and you never had the courage or knowledge to reply or defend why you posted it in the first place?

Screen shots and memes are great, sometimes funny, but if you don’t have the argument to back your point up you should maybe let it be.



https://media.tenor.com/images/d3eea4dec2b822c335b966419e1f475f/tenor.gif

for the love of god, take the hint

[cabbageandribs1875]

loving the billboards going up around the country, this one is in Kirkcaldy





https://scontent.fman2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72837379_758150338018636_5541555736615583744_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQnRlV-2uWIMiUIEr89HX6dWQ24FSnFbx7r09p696ggLQJ_zWawi4yery _MDJxN_LvQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-2.fna&oh=76911f0d1f72d0d94f0769ef89eae53f&oe=5E22A4E9

[Mibbes Aye]

https://media.tenor.com/images/d3eea4dec2b822c335b966419e1f475f/tenor.gif

for the love of god, take the hint

Right.

So you have gifs, screenshots and memes and I have things like my own words and sentences and paragraphs.

I know whose future I would rather my children end up with. Your children too, if you have any.

[Mibbes Aye]

https://media.tenor.com/images/d3eea4dec2b822c335b966419e1f475f/tenor.gif

for the love of god, take the hint

Are you able to reply about your NHS post? Or just let it go and admit it was misleading? Or just admit you had no idea what you were posting? Or best of all, engage in a full and frank debate about NHS performance in Scotland, based on facts?

[Fife-Hibee]

Right.

So you have gifs, screenshots and memes and I have things like my own words and sentences and paragraphs.

Why don't you respond to me then?

Perhaps you can explain to me why someone who claims to be so pro-devolution and pro-localization thinks that it's ok for a parliament beyond Scotlands borders to decide if Scotland has a choice over leaving a political union or not? :confused:

Did the UK Government await approval from MEPs in Brussels before holding their referendum? Did they heck. They just went ahead and held one anyway.

The UK Government claims that membership of the UK is "voluntary" not "mandatory". Yet, we have to ask them permission in order to have a vote over our membership status?

Have you ever been a member of any clubs? Did you ever have to consult other members of those clubs for the permission to walk away? :rolleyes:


I know whose future I would rather my children end up with. Your children too, if you have any.

Hopefully a future where the views of their democratically elected representatives actually count for something. Otherwise, you'll be stuck trying to explain to them why another country with different political aspirations are allowed to simply drag Scotland along with them.

[Callum_62]

So deal passes and we get transition period.... Good for independace prospects or not?

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[Slavers]

So deal passes and we get transition period.... Good for independace prospects or not?

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I'd say it's bad for independence, who in their right mind wants to put up a hard border between Scotland, England and Wales our by far and far and far our closest trading partners and socially very similar. I see no benefit to stopping free movement of people within the UK only to allow open Borders and free movement of people between Scotland, Romania and Bulgaria etc.

For me that is just bonkers.

I'd need to have the benefits of that explained to me as I can't see any?

Also there are no guarantees Indy Scotland would get back into the EU as they'd need all 27 members to agree to it. I just done see it being as straight forward as the SNP would have everyone believe.

[Hibbyradge]

https://media.tenor.com/images/d3eea4dec2b822c335b966419e1f475f/tenor.gif

Ooft. That's a new low for the Holy Ground.

[Hibbyradge]

https://media.tenor.com/images/d3eea4dec2b822c335b966419e1f475f/tenor.gif

for the love of god, take the hint

This forum is not an echo chamber. It exists so we can discuss and debate issues.

Why are you trying to stifle that?

If you haven't got any answers, or you don't like what a poster says, pop them on ignore. It's easy and it's a great stress reliever, believe me.

Your meme makes it look like you have no argument and it makes you look childish and ignorant. It's not a good look.

[Hibbyradge]

I'd say it's bad for independence, who in their right mind wants to put up a hard border between Scotland, England and Wales our by far and far and far our closest trading partners and socially very similar. I see no benefit to stopping free movement of people within the UK only to allow open Borders and free movement of people between Scotland, Romania and Bulgaria etc.

For me that is just bonkers.

I'd need to have the benefits of that explained to me as I can't see any?

Also there are no guarantees Indy Scotland would get back into the EU as they'd need all 27 members to agree to it. I just done see it being as straight forward as the SNP would have everyone believe.

That's just rehashing a different argument. It doesn't answer the question about the transition period.

[Ozyhibby]

loving the billboards going up around the country, this one is in Kirkcaldy





https://scontent.fman2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/72837379_758150338018636_5541555736615583744_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=104&_nc_oc=AQnRlV-2uWIMiUIEr89HX6dWQ24FSnFbx7r09p696ggLQJ_zWawi4yery _MDJxN_LvQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman2-2.fna&oh=76911f0d1f72d0d94f0769ef89eae53f&oe=5E22A4E9

The campaign is getting underway then. We know they will wheel out Brown at some point so might as well start neutralising him now.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

This forum is not an echo chamber. It exists so we can discuss and debate issues.

Why are you trying to stifle that?

If you haven't got any answers, or you don't like what a poster says, pop them on ignore. It's easy and it's a great stress reliever, believe me.

Your meme makes it look like you have no argument and it makes you look childish and ignorant. It's not a good look.


giving that advice to everyone are you ? i'l try it first with you...again :agree:just you do the same

[cabbageandribs1875]

The campaign is getting underway then. We know they will wheel out Brown at some point so might as well start neutralising him now.


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hopefully also one appears for the war monger tony blair, getting awfully cosy with the ex leader of the scottish tories


look forward to the outcome of the court case in Edinburgh later today https://www.facebook.com/main.jj/posts/2493225637379727 another bloody nose for Boris i hope

[Hibbyradge]

giving that advice to everyone are you ? i'l try it first with you...again :agree:just you do the same

Oh, I have put people on ignore.

I didn't think you would have been a candidate to join them.

You've put me on ignore because I pointed out that you're trying to stifle debate? Stifling mild criticism now too.

Cool.

[Fife-Hibee]

I'd say it's bad for independence, who in their right mind wants to put up a hard border between Scotland, England and Wales our by far and far and far our closest trading partners and socially very similar. I see no benefit to stopping free movement of people within the UK only to allow open Borders and free movement of people between Scotland, Romania and Bulgaria etc.

For me that is just bonkers.

I'd need to have the benefits of that explained to me as I can't see any?

Also there are no guarantees Indy Scotland would get back into the EU as they'd need all 27 members to agree to it. I just done see it being as straight forward as the SNP would have everyone believe.

You say we're "socially very similar". On what basis? What makes Scotland more socially similar to England than any other country across Europe? Before you say language, English is wide spread across mainland Europe. You can't exactly claim that we're politically similar, as we're evidently going in 2 completely different directions, despite Englands best efforts to drag Scotland in their direction.

[Fife-Hibee]

Adults putting adults on ignore on the political sub section of a football forum, because they can't deal with disagreements. How infantile. I've yet to put a single user on ignore and have no intentions of ever doing so either.

[Hibrandenburg]

The campaign is getting underway then. We know they will wheel out Brown at some point so might as well start neutralising him now.


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Look who's waiting in the wings.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ruth-davidson-met-tony-blair-to-discuss-indyref2-1-5026117

[Hibrandenburg]

hopefully also one appears for the war monger tony blair, getting awfully cosy with the ex leader of the scottish tories


look forward to the outcome of the court case in Edinburgh later today https://www.facebook.com/main.jj/posts/2493225637379727 another bloody nose for Boris i hope

Beat me to it.

[Pretty Boy]

Independence is an inevitability.

It's now all about patience and making sure the timing is 100% right. Frustrating as that may be for some it's better to go into a full campaign knowing you will win than hoping for that outcome.

There's no point in blowing the greatest chance Scotland will ever have to manage our own affairs because Stuart Campbell and a couple of SNP councillors are impatient.

[Hibbyradge]

Independence is an inevitability.

It's now all about patience and making sure the timing is 100% right. Frustrating as that may be for some it's better to go into a full campaign knowing you will win than hoping for that outcome.

There's no point in blowing the greatest chance Scotland will ever have to manage our own affairs because Stuart Campbell and a couple of SNP councillors are impatient.

I hope you're right. 🤞

If the SNP can properly answer the inevitable, and understandable, questions about our future fiscal policies including currency, pensions and our relationships with the rUK and the EU, then there's a great chance.

Rushing it through opens up the possibility of mistakes, so calls for that should be ignored.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Beat me to it.



could you copy and paste the article please H i've passed my 'free reads' quota apparently :(

[Cataplana]

Adults putting adults on ignore on the political sub section of a football forum, because they can't deal with disagreements. How infantile. I've yet to put a single user on ignore and have no intentions of ever doing so either.

If I put people on ignore it's because I think they are tossers, not because I disagree with what they say. Its the fact that I don't consider these people adults, as they are so infantile, that grinds my gears.

There is really no need for people to personalise so many of the points up for debate. Do they really think the other person will change their view because they have been mocked?

[Hibbyradge]

If I put people on ignore it's because I think they are tossers, not because I disagree with what they say. Its the fact that I don't consider these people adults, as they are so infantile, that grinds my gears.

There is really no need for people to personalise so many of the points up for debate. Do they really think the other person will change their view because they have been mocked?

I'm not sure what you mean by "tossers", but I imagine that from time to time, we all fall into that category in someone's mind. :greengrin

I won't debate with people who's views are abhorrent to me, e.g. racists, sexists, xenophobes, and I won't debate with attention seeking trolls.

Apart from that, I'll debate anyone's point of view.

[Cataplana]

I'm not sure what you mean by "tossers", but I imagine that from time to time, we all fall into that category in someone's mind. :greengrin

I won't debate with people who's views are abhorrent to me, e.g. racists, sexists, xenophobes, and I won't debate with attention seeking trolls.

Apart from that, I'll debate anyone's point of view.

We all have our own view on what constitutes a tosser. It's better to ignore them than call them that to their face.

Edit: I have no problem with someone calling me out, or disagreeing with me, but I do get upset if they knowingly break forum rules.

[Hibbyradge]

We all have our own view on what constitutes a tosser. It's better to ignore them than call them that to their face.

:hilarious

The voice of experience.

[Cataplana]

:hilarious

The voice of experience.

Fraid so.

To date, not one person has ever turned around and said, "thanks for that, I hadn't been aware I struggled in that area, but now youvr told me about it, I am going to undergo a period of reflection and see what improvements I can make."

[Ozyhibby]

I hope you're right. [emoji1696]

If the SNP can properly answer the inevitable, and understandable, questions about our future fiscal policies including currency, pensions and our relationships with the rUK and the EU, then there's a great chance.

Rushing it through opens up the possibility of mistakes, so calls for that should be ignored.

There needs to be bolder positions taken in the next ref. Be clear that new currency will be pegged to the pound for at least 10 years. Be clear that pensions will rise to the EU average on day 1. Be clear there retirement age will not change. Be clear we will stay/rejoin the EU.
And yes we need to be patient.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17976689.experts-say-bbc-misleading-people-scotlands-nhs-open-letter/?ref=fbshr&fbclid=IwAR1nymaOjkxVGGTms6vY1O4c_ZELL6E4suNpkHbI0 2PdhHW6HYFU5zG3Er4


A GROUP of health (https://www.thenational.scot/news/health) professionals have accused the BBC (https://www.thenational.scot/news/media-and-the-bbc/) of “misrepresenting” Scotland (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Scotland&topic_id=9026)’s mental health services.


The BBC did not respond to a request for comment.


shockerooni, and no shock it's christine jardine again :agree:

[SHODAN]

Now that there is a very real chance of us being out of the EU by the end of the month, I can see a spike in the opinion polls.

[puff the dragon]

There needs to be bolder positions taken in the next ref. Be clear that new currency will be pegged to the pound for at least 10 years. Be clear that pensions will rise to the EU average on day 1. Be clear there retirement age will not change. Be clear we will stay/rejoin the EU.
And yes we need to be patient.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The pension age chat would be down to whichever party forms the first government - as independence will have been delivered that won't be the SNP as their purpose will have ended so nothing you can promise during a referendum (learn from your NHS brexit bus).

EU should be a can we rejoin to give you lot the option after independence - shouldn't be linked to the independence question. Be clear about the criteria an independent Scotland would need to meet to join from consultation with the EU. Remember unlike last time there is no 'we're already in argument'.

You lot are making a step in the right direction tho by finally ackniwledging the magic money tree isn't going to be bought and you have to answer the questions. Shame it's 5 years too late tho as the question ain't being asked again in our lifetimes. Make sure you've passed this wisdom onto your grandkids if you want Scotland to be 'free' one day dude.

[weecounty hibby]

I am now taking full advantage of the ignore button. As has been pointed out previously it's better than telling people they are patronising tossers

[Hibrandenburg]

could you copy and paste the article please H i've passed my 'free reads' quota apparently :(

Ruth Davidson and Tony Blair met privately to discuss the prospect of Brexit sparking another Scottish independence referendum.

The meeting between the former Scottish Conservative leader and the former UK Prime Minister took place in a hotel in Edinburgh on 8 October.

The meeting between the former Scottish Conservative leader andthe former UK Prime Ministertook place in a hotel in Edinburgh on 8October. Picture: PA

Mr Blair's 45-minute conversation with Ms Davidson was dominated by the topic of Scotland's constitutional future, it has emerged.

The ex-Labor leader did not meet the Scottish Labour leader Richard Leonard during the trip.

Since quitting as party leader, Ms Davidson has said she is prepared to fight once again for the Union if another independence vote is announced.

Speaking at the Wigtown Book Festival a few days before meeting Mr Blair, she said on the prospect of a second separation poll: "Look, I hope there won’t be a next time.

“I will do what I can to stop that happening, but if it is happening there is absolutely no way that I am going to sit it out.

“This is my country, it’s what I’ve fought for, it’s what I believe in.

“And whether anyone wants me to hold a position or whether they want me to go round, knock doors and hand out leaflets, I’m happy doing both.”

Ms Davidson went on to tell journalist Sarah Smith, who was chairing the event, that she left her leadership job because she was “hopelessly conflicted by Brexit” and also wanted to spend more time being a mother.

A spokesman for Ms Davidson told The Times, "As the MSP for Edinburgh Central, Ruth meets with people from the private, public and charitable sector who have an interest in Scotland's constitutional future."

A spokeswoman for Mr Blair declined to comment.

[puff the dragon]

I am now taking full advantage of the ignore button. As has been pointed out previously it's better than telling people they are patronising tossers

I will only speak to people of the same opinion as me.
How dare somebody not be an SNP man.
My opinion is the most important in the world.
I shall block all counter facts.
I am millenial.
If I only follow the opinions I want to see on twitter - that'll make me sound.
Now - where's the nearest sandpit???

[Ozyhibby]

Ruth Davidson and Tony Blair met privately to discuss the prospect of Brexit sparking another Scottish independence referendum.

The meeting between the former Scottish Conservative leader and the former UK Prime Minister took place in a hotel in Edinburgh on 8 October.

The meeting between the former Scottish Conservative leader andthe former UK Prime Ministertook place in a hotel in Edinburgh on 8October. Picture: PA

Mr Blair's 45-minute conversation with Ms Davidson was dominated by the topic of Scotland's constitutional future, it has emerged.

The ex-Labor leader did not meet the Scottish Labour leader Richard Leonard during the trip.

Since quitting as party leader, Ms Davidson has said she is prepared to fight once again for the Union if another independence vote is announced.

Speaking at the Wigtown Book Festival a few days before meeting Mr Blair, she said on the prospect of a second separation poll: "Look, I hope there won’t be a next time.

“I will do what I can to stop that happening, but if it is happening there is absolutely no way that I am going to sit it out.

“This is my country, it’s what I’ve fought for, it’s what I believe in.

“And whether anyone wants me to hold a position or whether they want me to go round, knock doors and hand out leaflets, I’m happy doing both.”

Ms Davidson went on to tell journalist Sarah Smith, who was chairing the event, that she left her leadership job because she was “hopelessly conflicted by Brexit” and also wanted to spend more time being a mother.

A spokesman for Ms Davidson told The Times, "As the MSP for Edinburgh Central, Ruth meets with people from the private, public and charitable sector who have an interest in Scotland's constitutional future."

A spokeswoman for Mr Blair declined to comment.

There is no doubt Davidson expects to lead BT2. Handy that she is a Tory and doesn’t have the experience Darling had.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

I will only speak to people of the same opinion as me.
How dare somebody not be an SNP man.
My opinion is the most important in the world.
I shall block all counter facts.
I am millenial.
If I only follow the opinions I want to see on twitter - that'll make me sound.
Now - where's the nearest sandpit???

And there it is. The post where you abuse another for not agreeing with you. Well done for lasting this long.

[weecounty hibby]

I will only speak to people of the same opinion as me.
How dare somebody not be an SNP man.
My opinion is the most important in the world.
I shall block all counter facts.
I am millenial.
If I only follow the opinions I want to see on twitter - that'll make me sound.
Now - where's the nearest sandpit???
Yeah, yeah whatever you think. As a matter of fact I'm finishing work early and heading for a night out with an ex work colleague who is the biggest no voting unionist you could meet. We will discuss politics amongst other things. One thing he won't do us try to talk down to me or be patronising. And I won't to him either. That's why we have remained friends throughout all of this.

[southsider]

Most Scots didn’t vote for the SNP at Holyrood. Do you see your contradiction?

They got the most seats so they (snp) won the election and I am not a snp voter but I might be now if Labour push thru Brexit.

[puff the dragon]

And there it is. The post where you abuse another for not agreeing with you. Well done for lasting this long.

So actually calling someone a 'patronising tosser' isn't abuse.

Implying that somebody is an ostrich because they block differing opinions is tho?

Man you nats are precious.

[weecounty hibby]

And there it is. The post where you abuse another for not agreeing with you. Well done for lasting this long.

I honestly have no issue with not agreeing with me, he seems like the kind of person who won't ever be convinced of the benefits of independence. It's the patronising wee pat on the head, the go away, your too stupid, too small, too poor attitude that just gets right on my nerves. As said in my previous post my mate tonight is 100% opposed to independence but would never be patronising about it

[weecounty hibby]

So actually calling someone a 'patronising tosser' isn't abuse.

Implying that somebody is an ostrich because they block differing opinions is tho?

Man you nats are precious.

Where did I specifically call you a patronising tosser. I said ignore was better than doing that. It may not even have been you I was talking about. Perhaps you can see that description in yourself though and felt a bit self conscious

[Moulin Yarns]

The pension age chat would be down to whichever party forms the first government - as independence will have been delivered that won't be the SNP as their purpose will have ended so nothing you can promise during a referendum (learn from your NHS brexit bus).

EU should be a can we rejoin to give you lot the option after independence - shouldn't be linked to the independence question. Be clear about the criteria an independent Scotland would need to meet to join from consultation with the EU. Remember unlike last time there is no 'we're already in argument'.

You lot are making a step in the right direction tho by finally ackniwledging the magic money tree isn't going to be bought and you have to answer the questions. Shame it's 5 years too late tho as the question ain't being asked again in our lifetimes. Make sure you've passed this wisdom onto your grandkids if you want Scotland to be 'free' one day dude.

In your opinion the snp will not have any reason to exist after independence. At least you accept that independence will happen. I disagree with you that the snp will no longer have a purpose, they have been in government for a decent length of time to show they are more than capable of running the country. I think they will be the first government in an independent Scotland on a wave of new found optimism.

The EU. Don't you think that these discussions with the 27 countries have already been taking place?

Indyref 2 will happen, sooner than you want. That is my opinion, it differs from yours and that is fine but if I were a betting man I think I would win on that score.

[Moulin Yarns]

So actually calling someone a 'patronising tosser' isn't abuse.

Implying that somebody is an ostrich because they block differing opinions is tho?

Man you nats are precious.


And there is your assumption about my views. I'm not a snp voter as first choice but do agree with some of the policies.

[Moulin Yarns]

Where did I specifically call you a patronising tosser. I said ignore was better than doing that. It may not even have been you I was talking about. Perhaps you can see that description in yourself though and felt a bit self conscious

Your last sentence strikes a chord. Puff is coming over a bit like another poster.

[puff the dragon]

Yeah, yeah whatever you think. As a matter of fact I'm finishing work early and heading for a night out with an ex work colleague who is the biggest no voting unionist you could meet. We will discuss politics amongst other things. One thing he won't do us try to talk down to me or be patronising. And I won't to him either. That's why we have remained friends throughout all of this.

Beautiful story of friendship in the face of extreme division bro. It's like Gorbachev and Reagan ending the Cold War. Enjoy your sesh

[Frankhfc]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17976689.experts-say-bbc-misleading-people-scotlands-nhs-open-letter/?ref=fbshr&fbclid=IwAR1nymaOjkxVGGTms6vY1O4c_ZELL6E4suNpkHbI0 2PdhHW6HYFU5zG3Er4


A GROUP of health (https://www.thenational.scot/news/health) professionals have accused the BBC (https://www.thenational.scot/news/media-and-the-bbc/) of “misrepresenting” Scotland (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Scotland&topic_id=9026)’s mental health services.


The BBC did not respond to a request for comment.


shockerooni, and no shock it's christine jardine again :agree:

Happens to be my local M.P.

Found her to be attentive, welcoming, very helpful and communicative. Works extremely hard on behalf of her constituents which is to her great credit.

[Fife-Hibee]

I really worry for people who use ignore functions online. It makes me wonder how they deal with real life dilemmas where ignore buttons aren't an option. It's arguably one of the greatest contributing factors of the modern age where people simply refuse to tolerate views that challenge their own, or create the potential for compromise. No wonder politics is in such a mess.

For the record, I don't think anybody is a "tosser" on here, even those who are completely opposed to my own views in every conceivable category. There's no point sticking them on ignore, when there's every chance that i'm going to need to face people just like them out there in the real world.

[Mibbes Aye]

In your opinion the snp will not have any reason to exist after independence. At least you accept that independence will happen. I disagree with you that the snp will no longer have a purpose, they have been in government for a decent length of time to show they are more than capable of running the country. I think they will be the first government in an independent Scotland on a wave of new found optimism.

The EU. Don't you think that these discussions with the 27 countries have already been taking place?

Indyref 2 will happen, sooner than you want. That is my opinion, it differs from yours and that is fine but if I were a betting man I think I would win on that score.

While I probably agree with a lot of your post, I think it is a stretch to describe them as succeeding.

The two biggest indicators for most people would be health and education and there has been a lack of progress, indeed failure, in both of these areas.

[Mibbes Aye]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17976689.experts-say-bbc-misleading-people-scotlands-nhs-open-letter/?ref=fbshr&fbclid=IwAR1nymaOjkxVGGTms6vY1O4c_ZELL6E4suNpkHbI0 2PdhHW6HYFU5zG3Er4


A GROUP of health (https://www.thenational.scot/news/health) professionals have accused the BBC (https://www.thenational.scot/news/media-and-the-bbc/) of “misrepresenting” Scotland (https://www.thenational.scot/search/?search=Scotland&topic_id=9026)’s mental health services.


The BBC did not respond to a request for comment.


shockerooni, and no shock it's christine jardine again :agree:

You’ve got to love the National. They don’t know if they are talking eighteen weeks or eighteen months!

As for the medics, I notice a couple are retired and one is a radiologist so I’m not sure what expertise they have in mental health. I’m not convinced these signatories have any real credibility whatsoever.

There is the distinct sound of a barrel being scraped here.

[CloudSquall]

There is no doubt Davidson expects to lead BT2. Handy that she is a Tory and doesn’t have the experience Darling had.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If she does I hope she is hammered for going into hiding at the moment she had to start answering questions on Boris and Brexit.

She shat out of it for her career.

[Cataplana]

I really worry for people who use ignore functions online. It makes me wonder how they deal with real life dilemmas where ignore buttons aren't an option. It's arguably one of the greatest contributing factors of the modern age where people simply refuse to tolerate views that challenge their own, or create the potential for compromise. No wonder politics is in such a mess.

For the record, I don't think anybody is a "tosser" on here, even those who are completely opposed to my own views in every conceivable category. There's no point sticking them on ignore, when there's every chance that i'm going to need to face people just like them out there in the real world.

You've over thought that one.