Scottish Independence

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't think that comes into it, under these circumstances they have no choice. If an election is triggered then an election is triggered.

Where are you seeing any possible scenario where there will be an election at Holyrood before 2025?

[Frazerbob]

This is after Nicola Sturgeons grand plan. Only 39% of people when asked said Yes to Independence. I would imagine the majority of Don't Knows would fall into No as well. Even without the Don't Knows it's a clear victory for No.

https://twitter.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1542780997418340352?t=9tgSo4lzxcFzg4ZEidYuSg&s=19

Scottish Independence Voting Intention:

NO: 46%
YES: 39%
Don't Know: 15%

Don't Know's excluded:

NO: 54%
YES: 46%

Via @techneUK, On 29-30 June.


On reflection I am delighted with Nicola Sturgeons plan, it's a desperate last throw of the dice so she can leave after the General Election and say "well I did all I could". She has made this all about her legacy, or lack of it.

I am still working out what a 'de facto' referendum actually means, if the SNP say get 45% of popular vote like in 2019 what does that mean? How can they campaign on a single issue? If someone asks them about the NHS do they say Independence, if someone asks about housing do they say Independence etc.

The next few polls will be interesting, if the trend continues then it could set back Yes for years.

NS has been very clear when asked in several interviews that the Indy parties (currently SNP & Green but probably add Alba) would need to gain more than 50% of the votes.
Votes, not seats

[Just Alf]

All true , but if she stood down and she then instructed her MSPs to vote down anyone else then nobody would win, it's not like the Greens would vote for Douglas Ross/Anas Sarwar/ACH to be FM would they?

The other parties would not have enough votes to beat the SNP/Greens.

So in theory nothing at all stopping this happening.Apart from the fact that they also have a government to run... unlike what many detractors are claiming the SNP, like other parties can do more than one thing at a time.

Would be a disgrace if she did as you suggested

[James310]

Where are you seeing any possible scenario where there will be an election at Holyrood before 2025?

I think I said I don't multiple times, but if she wanted to strengthen her position to put more pressure on the UK Gov then having a bigger vote share and an overall majority would do that.

I get it's not going to happen though.

[James310]

NS has been very clear when asked in several interviews that the Indy parties (currently SNP & Green but probably add Alba) would need to gain more than 50% of the votes.
Votes, not seats

Then what? Say they get 50.1% of the votes, what happens next?

I don't think they have ever had 50% or higher at a Westminster vote, even in 2015 which was peak SNP time.

If they get 45% like that time does that mean they have lost and we won't hear about another referendum, course not.

[Moulin Yarns]

Then what? Say they get 50.1% of the votes, what happens next?

I don't think they have ever had 50% or higher at a Westminster vote, even in 2015 which was peak SNP time.

If they get 45% like that time does that mean they have lost and we won't hear about another referendum, course not.

49.97% in 2015, and think of all the new young voters since then.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think it will happen, just saying if she wants to put pressure on the UK Gov then having a larger vote share and an overall majority would surely help her.

A vote of confidence would be pointless.

I think that nothing we vote for changes anything in London.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

I think I said I don't multiple times, but if she wanted to strengthen her position to put more pressure on the UK Gov then having a bigger vote share and an overall majority would do that.

I get it's not going to happen though.

I think the announcement on Tuesday put all the pressure necessary.

A) S30 request

B) A pre-emptive strike through the Supreme Court, which she may lose, but she may win

C) De-facto referendum at the next GE.

Johnson agrees S30. Legal referendum

Johnsone refuses the S30? but the Supreme court finds in Scotland's favour. Legal referendum


Johnsone refuses the S30? and the Supreme court finds in the UK's favour. No referendum but Push the case for independence up to the GE which the unionist parties would all have to fight on by which I mean make the case for the Union rather than saying you are too wee, too poor and too stupid.

[degenerated]

I'm sure I've asked before but what do you know about the website this poll comes from?

just a quick look at their website shows that the guy heading up their UK branch, Spencer Pitfield stood as a tory candidate for Chesterfield in 2017 GE and their communication and public affairs consultant, Stephen Naylor, isa former tory party PR officer. :hmmm:

[James310]

49.97% in 2015, and think of all the new young voters since then.

But it's the so what, so the SNP get 51% and then what? What happens next? I don't see how you are any further forward than where you are today, you would still need a referendum.

16/17 year olds and EU nationals can't vote in UK elections as well.

If 51% is a win, does that mean anything below 50% is a loss and that's IndyRef2 off the table?

[James310]

just a quick look at their website shows that the guy heading up their UK branch, Spencer Pitfield stood as a tory candidate for Chesterfield in 2017 GE and their communication and public affairs consultant, Stephen Naylor, isa former tory party PR officer. :hmmm:

Angus Robertson used to run a polling company before becoming a MSP, should I take all the polls his company ran that showed Yes leading as not true?

[Just Alf]

Angus Robertson used to run a polling company before becoming a MSP, should I take all the polls his company ran that showed Yes leading as not true?As long as you're aware of the 'leanings ' any particular polling company has then you can factor that it... I've not paid attention but it wouldn't surprise me if the polling company you mention returns more indy positive results. ....

[degenerated]

But it's the so what, so the SNP get 51% and then what? What happens next? I don't see how you are any further forward than where you are today, you would still need a referendum.

16/17 year olds and EU nationals can't vote in UK elections as well.

If 51% is a win, does that mean anything below 50% is a loss and that's IndyRef2 off the table?

until such times as the Scottish electorate decide that it's not off the table and they elect a pro independence government to Holyrood, that's how democracy works. The way to stop it is for unionists to win enough seats to form a government.

[James310]

until such times as the Scottish electorate decide that it's not off the table and they elect a pro independence government to Holyrood, that's how democracy works. The way to stop it is for unionists to win enough seats to form a government.

All true, but still doesn't answer what happens next when the SNP wins either 51% of the vote of 45% of the vote.

That's why I think it's just a stalling tactic to kick the can down the road for another few years, keep her supporters on side and galvanise support for the general election. Keeps her and the MPs in jobs, does it advance Independence much if you still need a referendum at the end of the process, the same thing you need today.

If the majority of SNP supporters are delighted then great. She has done her job.

[Ozyhibby]

All true, but still doesn't answer what happens next when the SNP wins either 51% of the vote of 45% of the vote.

That's why I think it's just a stalling tactic to kick the can down the road for another few years, keep her supporters on side and galvanise support for the general election. Keeps her and the MPs in jobs, does it advance Independence much if you still need a referendum at the end of the process, the same thing you need today.

If the majority of SNP supporters are delighted then great. She has done her job.

Make your mind up, one minute she’s obsessed with Indy, next she is stalling it so she can keep her cushy job.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[degenerated]

Angus Robertson used to run a polling company before becoming a MSP, should I take all the polls his company ran that showed Yes leading as not true?Go for it, I'm surprised you haven't already.

[James310]

Make your mind up, one minute she’s obsessed with Indy, next she is stalling it so she can keep her cushy job.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lol, a fair point!

[James310]

Go for it, I'm surprised you haven't already.

Because I don't believe polling companies have particular agendas, I think they stick to the strict rules that guide their industry and try to be professional. Maybe I am naive. The question is still the same in all the polls though.

[Ozyhibby]

Because I don't believe polling companies have particular agendas, I think they stick to the strict rules that guide their industry and try to be professional. Maybe I am naive. The question is still the same in all the polls though.

Actually that’s not true. The question changes depending on who is asking. Scotland in union always ask a weighted question in their polls to give the union a favourable result.
I think their most recent poll asked ‘do you support NS’s timetable for another divisive referendum’?
Poll can be manipulated in many ways including by asking other questions before the main one.
The poll you were gleefully sharing earlier looked particularly unreliable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

Actually that’s not true. The question changes depending on who is asking. Scotland in union always ask a weighted question in their polls to give the union a favourable result.
I think their most recent poll asked ‘do you support NS’s timetable for another divisive referendum’?
Poll can be manipulated in many ways including by asking other questions before the main one.
The poll you were gleefully sharing earlier looked particularly unreliable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Of course the question changes if they ask a different question. The majority ask the same Yes/No question though.

[James310]

The Dean of the Faculty of Advocates.

https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1542757987860758528?t=yfdadnJ1ffxKBMDlCa5GrQ&s=19

I won’t comment on the politics, but I will on the law. Prof Mitchell says - correctly - that the law does not recognise a “de facto referendum”. If the aim is to achieve something lawful, recognised internationally as such, how can something that doesn’t exist in law qualify?

[Moulin Yarns]

Of course the question changes if they ask a different question. The majority ask the same Yes/No question though.

Some have asked the EU referendum question just to confuse people!!! 🤔😂

[Moulin Yarns]

The Dean of the Faculty of Advocates.

https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1542757987860758528?t=yfdadnJ1ffxKBMDlCa5GrQ&s=19

I won’t comment on the politics, but I will on the law. Prof Mitchell says - correctly - that the law does not recognise a “de facto referendum”. If the aim is to achieve something lawful, recognised internationally as such, how can something that doesn’t exist in law qualify?

Just as well there is a precedent for defacto referendums in the UK

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_Irish_general_election

😂🇮🇪

[Ozyhibby]

The Dean of the Faculty of Advocates.

https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1542757987860758528?t=yfdadnJ1ffxKBMDlCa5GrQ&s=19

I won’t comment on the politics, but I will on the law. Prof Mitchell says - correctly - that the law does not recognise a “de facto referendum”. If the aim is to achieve something lawful, recognised internationally as such, how can something that doesn’t exist in law qualify?

The de-facto referendum is a political move, not a legal one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

Some have asked the EU referendum question just to confuse people!!! 🤔😂

I hope nobody is asking the EU question again in a poll on Scottish Independence.

I have to admit I am puzzled why people answering a question should Scotland remain in or leave the UK think somehow they are answering should the UK remain or leave the EU. If you think that I wonder if you really should be allowed to vote.

The electoral commission found there is a slight bias to Yes in a Yes/No question, but I can also see how there would be a bias in Remain/Leave.

[James310]

Just as well there is a precedent for defacto referendums in the UK

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_Irish_general_election

😂🇮🇪

Lol, 1918.

[Ozyhibby]

I hope nobody is asking the EU question again in a poll on Scottish Independence.

I have to admit I am puzzled why people answering a question should Scotland remain in or leave the UK think somehow they are answering should the UK remain or leave the EU. If you think that I wonder if you really should be allowed to vote.

The electoral commission found there is a slight bias to Yes in a Yes/No question, but I can also see how there would be a bias in Remain/Leave.

The question is now set. There is no way it will change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Lol, 1918.

Check the definitions for precedent, it must have happened previously. Therfore, there is a precedent in uk general elections which have led to the independence of a sovereign state.

[James310]

Check the definitions for precedent, it must have happened previously. Therfore, there is a precedent in uk general elections which have led to the independence of a sovereign state.

Cool, if you think UDI will work crack on.

[James310]

The question is now set. There is no way it will change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would challenge that if there is a S30 agreed, the Electoral Commission should play it's part like it has in all other referendums. If they decide that's still the question then that remains the question.

[Ozyhibby]

I would challenge that if there is a S30 agreed, the Electoral Commission should play it's part like it has in all other referendums. If they decide that's still the question then that remains the question.

That’s why I think it’s set. They will take into account the previous question and want to remove any risk of confusion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[weecounty hibby]

So we've moved from "we're no gonae let you" to "no precedent for a de facto referendum" to "you're gonae declare UDI"

[James310]

So we've moved from "we're no gonae let you" to "no precedent for a de facto referendum" to "you're gonae declare UDI"

It wasn't me who suggested that. That's why I am asking the 'so what' question. If the SNP win 51% of the popular vote so what, what does it mean? What happens next? Obviously UDI won't be declared despite a suggestion from one poster, so what does it mean. A referendum is still required, which is exactly the same position as today.

[Skol]

It wasn't me who suggested that. That's why I am asking the 'so what' question. If the SNP win 51% of the popular vote so what, what does it mean? What happens next? Obviously UDI won't be declared despite a suggestion from one poster, so what does it mean. A referendum is still required, which is exactly the same position as today.

This is how I see it as well. 50%+1 will not see independence and the only feasible next step is for that to be used as evidence of a mandate for an s30

If 50%+1 is not achieved, we just continue as we are, probably with Robertson taking over as leader

[The Modfather]

This is how I see it as well. 50%+1 will not see independence and the only feasible next step is for that to be used as evidence of a mandate for an s30

If 50%+1 is not achieved, we just continue as we are, probably with Robertson taking over as leader

If 50%+1 wasn’t achieved the independence vote would probably fragment and the movement fade away. I know I’d accept that a majority simply don’t want independence and start looking around for my vote. Although as ever I’d probably be as close to spoiling my ballot than voting for anyone party. #noneoftheabove

[He's here!]

All true, but still doesn't answer what happens next when the SNP wins either 51% of the vote of 45% of the vote.

That's why I think it's just a stalling tactic to kick the can down the road for another few years, keep her supporters on side and galvanise support for the general election. Keeps her and the MPs in jobs, does it advance Independence much if you still need a referendum at the end of the process, the same thing you need today.

If the majority of SNP supporters are delighted then great. She has done her job.

Dragging it out for that length of time with a focus on campaigning on an independence only platform also allows the SNP's bang average (to put it kindly) governance to remain of secondary concern.

[degenerated]

Dragging it out for that length of time with a focus on campaigning on an independence only platform also allows the SNP's bang average (to put it kindly) governance to remain of secondary concern.That bang average is a hell of a lot better than the bang ******* disgraceful we have seen from the UK government.

[ronaldo7]

So we've moved from "we're no gonae let you" to "no precedent for a de facto referendum" to "you're gonae declare UDI"

Ye missed out, we're no taking part, or you'll see us walking out of parliament if you mention Indyref2.

[ronaldo7]

When did this boy get the memo from London. He should have stuck to his principles. Poor lad.

https://twitter.com/marcuscarslaw1/status/1542842616802418688

https://twitter.com/SonOfScotland1/status/1542817508704518146

[SteveHFC]

This is after Nicola Sturgeons grand plan. Only 39% of people when asked said Yes to Independence. I would imagine the majority of Don't Knows would fall into No as well. Even without the Don't Knows it's a clear victory for No.

https://twitter.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1542780997418340352?t=9tgSo4lzxcFzg4ZEidYuSg&s=19

Scottish Independence Voting Intention:

NO: 46%
YES: 39%
Don't Know: 15%

Don't Know's excluded:

NO: 54%
YES: 46%

Via @techneUK, On 29-30 June.


On reflection I am delighted with Nicola Sturgeons plan, it's a desperate last throw of the dice so she can leave after the General Election and say "well I did all I could". She has made this all about her legacy, or lack of it.

I am still working out what a 'de facto' referendum actually means, if the SNP say get 45% of popular vote like in 2019 what does that mean? How can they campaign on a single issue? If someone asks them about the NHS do they say Independence, if someone asks about housing do they say Independence etc.

The next few polls will be interesting, if the trend continues then it could set back Yes for years.

Do think if we vote no again, we won’t get another referendum for a very long time.

[stoneyburn hibs]

It wasn't me who suggested that. That's why I am asking the 'so what' question. If the SNP win 51% of the popular vote so what, what does it mean? What happens next? Obviously UDI won't be declared despite a suggestion from one poster, so what does it mean. A referendum is still required, which is exactly the same position as today.

FM resigning, vote of no confidence?
In your Tory head Johnny boy.
You're so desperately trying to disparage the Scottish government that you have lost sight of the fact that the vote will happen.
It's what the majority voted for.

[grunt]

Do think if we vote no again, we won’t get another referendum for a very long time.Let's not make that mistake again then.

[Hibrandenburg]

Do think if we vote no again, we won’t get another referendum for a very long time.

I've never understood the logic of restricting the amount of referendums. As long as independence remains a burning ambition of a large proportion of society that keeps electing pro-independence parties, then it has to remain on the table. The Tories represent conservatism and the SNP independence, everyone knows that before they put their x in the box. Imagine if we were told we now have to live with conservatism for at least the next generation because that's what we chose in the last election?

[Keith_M]

Do think if we vote no again, we won’t get another referendum for a very long time.


There has been a massive material change in circumstance (Brexit) that, for me at least, justifies another Referendum.

If the second Referendum ever goes ahead and the result is No this time as well, then I'm not sure another one can be justified again any time soon... unless there's been another change of such drastic proportions as us leaving the EU.


I have friends and relatives that voted No the last time but have said to me, having seen what's happened since then... particularly Brexit... that they now wished they hadn't and would vote differently if the chance came up again.

[Skol]

There has been a massive material change in circumstance (Brexit) that, for me at least, justifies another Referendum.

If the second Referendum ever goes ahead and the result is No this time as well, then I'm not sure another one can be justified again any time soon... unless there's been another change of such drastic proportions as us leaving the EU.


I have friends and relatives that voted No the last time but have said to me, having seen what's happened since then... particularly Brexit... that they now wished they hadn't and would vote differently if the chance came up again.

I agree brexit is a reason for a second vote. But also agree we cannot just keep having them if the outcome has been no. There needs to be a material change, a movement of significance in the support or a passage of time

For me though the snp have missed the great opportunity they had. They have barely moved the dial since 2014 despite the most favourable position they could have imagined. I think their strategy is all wrong and now seems to be based on hoping the older no voters die and are replaced by younger yes voters who have only known their current approach.

[The Modfather]

I agree brexit is a reason for a second vote. But also agree we cannot just keep having them if the outcome has been no. There needs to be a material change, a movement of significance in the support or a passage of time

For me though the snp have missed the great opportunity they had. They have barely moved the dial since 2014 despite the most favourable position they could have imagined. I think their strategy is all wrong and now seems to be based on hoping the older no voters die and are replaced by younger yes voters who have only known their current approach.

I think the yes side need to fight fire with fire and take a leaf out of the project fear playbook. Much as I’d prefer a debate from both sides to focus on the positives. They need to focus as much on what isn’t and doesn’t work in what we have now and ask what the way forward is from here if it’s not independence as much as putting forward a credible vision of their own.

I think it’s easier to pick holes in the other side than it is to talk up your own side, both sides being guilty of it. This thread is a microcosm of that. I asked a question yesterday about a point raised that people are worrying about their jobs and the bills on a daily basis, and if independence isn’t the answer to that what is the answer within the current set up? That question was ignored but none of the opportunities to ask questions or pick holes in the referendum plan or independence were missed.

[He's here!]

There has been a massive material change in circumstance (Brexit) that, for me at least, justifies another Referendum.

If the second Referendum ever goes ahead and the result is No this time as well, then I'm not sure another one can be justified again any time soon... unless there's been another change of such drastic proportions as us leaving the EU.


I have friends and relatives that voted No the last time but have said to me, having seen what's happened since then... particularly Brexit... that they now wished they hadn't and would vote differently if the chance came up again.

Not sure that dredging up the 'material change' of Brexit line again would be a vote winner for Sturgeon. She went in all guns blazing on that theme the morning after the Brexit vote in 2016 and put a second Scottish referendum 'back on the table'. The general election the following year was seen as Scotland's opportunity to kick back against 'being dragged out the EU' but saw the SNP lose a third of the seats it won in 2015 (including those of Salmond and Angus Robertson) while the Tories won their highest number of seats in Scotland since the early days of Thatcher.

It's Boris Johnson's calamity-strewn premiership that affords Scottish independence its best hope, yet polls continue to show a majority of Scots against independence - and a bigger majority against a referendum next year. Nevertheless, I can see why Sturgeon's in a hurry to get some sort of ballot staged before Johnson's departure.

[lapsedhibee]

Not sure that dredging up the 'material change' of Brexit line again would be a vote winner for Sturgeon. She went in all guns blazing on that theme the morning after the Brexit vote in 2016 and put a second Scottish referendum 'back on the table'. The general election the following year was seen as Scotland's opportunity to kick back against 'being dragged out the EU' but saw the SNP lose a third of the seats it won in 2015 (including those of Salmond and Angus Robertson) while the Tories won their highest number of seats in Scotland since the early days of Thatcher.

It's Boris Johnson's calamity-strewn premiership that affords Scottish independence its best hope, yet polls continue to show a majority of Scots against independence - and a bigger majority against a referendum next year. Nevertheless, I can see why Sturgeon's in a hurry to get some sort of ballot staged before Johnson's departure.

Does this mean you think Johnson's still going to be Prime Minister in October 2023? :dunno:

[SHODAN]

I think the yes side need to fight fire with fire and take a leaf out of the project fear playbook. Much as I’d prefer a debate from both sides to focus on the positives. They need to focus as much on what isn’t and doesn’t work in what we have now and ask what the way forward is from here if it’s not independence as much as putting forward a credible vision of their own.

I think it’s easier to pick holes in the other side than it is to talk up your own side, both sides being guilty of it. This thread is a microcosm of that. I asked a question yesterday about a point raised that people are worrying about their jobs and the bills on a daily basis, and if independence isn’t the answer to that what is the answer within the current set up? That question was ignored but none of the opportunities to ask questions or pick holes in the referendum plan or independence were missed.

The answer to that last bit in 2014 was "when Labour get in" and here we are in our 13th straight year with the Tories.

[Ozyhibby]

https://constitution-unit.com/2022/07/01/are-unionists-the-biggest-threat-to-the-union/

Unionists are the biggest threat to the union. Interesting article on the changes being made in the UK right now. There is no status quo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

I have friends and relatives that voted No the last time but have said to me, having seen what's happened since then... particularly Brexit... that they now wished they hadn't and would vote differently if the chance came up again.#MeToo

[He's here!]

Does this mean you think Johnson's still going to be Prime Minister in October 2023? :dunno:

I'd be surprised if he is.

[lapsedhibee]

I'd be surprised if he is.

Strange, then, to imply that Sturgeon thinks that the ballot might take place before his departure.

[Ozyhibby]

Strange, then, to imply that Sturgeon thinks that the ballot might take place before his departure.

It’s the old Sturgeon is both obsessed with Indy and kicking the can down the road on it at the same time logic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

Strange, then, to imply that Sturgeon thinks that the ballot might take place before his departure.

I've no more idea than you if he'll still be in post by then. It's hard to imagine he will be but stranger things have happened in politics and he certainly appears determined to ride things out. If he does it seems likely the Tories will take a pasting at the next election which is why Sturgeon will be very much hoping he's still PM.

[He's here!]

It’s the old Sturgeon is both obsessed with Indy and kicking the can down the road on it at the same time logic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can't she be/do both? If we assume her 2023 plan gets knocked back then she can still be obsessed with independence, arguably even more so as she plans to ride on an independence only ticket in 2024.

Whatever became of 'I want to be judged on my record in education'?

[ronaldo7]

Herald poll on Scottish independence which finished yesterday.

YES. 88%

No. 12%

Votes cast 18,384

Just saying likes. 😂

[Callum_62]

Herald poll on Scottish independence which finished yesterday.

YES. 88%

No. 12%

Votes cast 18,384

Just saying likes. [emoji23]Doesn't count.

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Doesn't count.

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

😂😂😂

[Stairway 2 7]

Was shared around indepence supporters the days before and could vote multiple times, nonsense but funny.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Amalkadog/status/1542517784726208512

But I think things will be close just now, need to build momentum. I don't think there will be a vote next year, but they will use that rejection of a vote as fuel. A couple of years will do the chances we'll. Brexit will get worse and the cost of living, plus this government will inevitably do more mad stuff

[Ozyhibby]

Herald poll on Scottish independence which finished yesterday.

YES. 88%

No. 12%

Votes cast 18,384

Just saying likes. [emoji23]

That’s a significant swing to Yes. NS’s speech must have went down better than I thought.[emoji106][emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Doesn't count.

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

Doesn't count because I didn't vote :wink:

[grunt]

Doesn't count because I didn't vote :wink:People like you will result in us missing out again! :greengrin

[Keith_M]

Not sure that dredging up the 'material change' of Brexit line again would be a vote winner for Sturgeon. She went in all guns blazing on that theme the morning after the Brexit vote in 2016 and put a second Scottish referendum 'back on the table'. The general election the following year was seen as Scotland's opportunity to kick back against 'being dragged out the EU' but saw the SNP lose a third of the seats it won in 2015 (including those of Salmond and Angus Robertson) while the Tories won their highest number of seats in Scotland since the early days of Thatcher.

It's Boris Johnson's calamity-strewn premiership that affords Scottish independence its best hope, yet polls continue to show a majority of Scots against independence - and a bigger majority against a referendum next year. Nevertheless, I can see why Sturgeon's in a hurry to get some sort of ballot staged before Johnson's departure.


TBH, I'm not really interested in what Sturgeon does or doesn't think, or why some people changed their votes from Labour to the Tories in 2017, it's merely a personal view on why I feel a second referendum is reasonably justified.

[Moulin Yarns]

People like you will result in us missing out again! :greengrin

I know, I'm so sorry that I didn't know it was happening. 😂

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220702/bddccfb527341e699b81c60dd55aea0b.jpg

Yes edges in front again. Lots still to play for. Yes side the only ones putting forward a case just now though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[The Tubs]

Just to remind people what we're currently locked into (yesterday's FT):

25994

[Skol]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220702/bddccfb527341e699b81c60dd55aea0b.jpg

Yes edges in front again. Lots still to play for. Yes side the only ones putting forward a case just now though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Where can I find this case? Lol.

[Bostonhibby]

That’s a significant swing to Yes. NS’s speech must have went down better than I thought.[emoji106][emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHas Bozo just been on a flying visit to his pal Murray Ross in Scotchland?

Can't think of anything else that would see such a sudden massive swing away from the Union.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

Where can I find this case? Lol.

It’s more of a case than ‘NO, you can’t have a democratic vote on self determination’.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Skol]

It’s more of a case than ‘NO, you can’t have a democratic vote on self determination’.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s not really. Oh and no one has said we cannot have a democratic vote. Well not since Theresa May and at that stage she had a reason as brexit hadn’t been settled.

Much as you want it to be, Boris, Brexit and a Broken Union are not a case for Independence. Granted they are good reasons to consider the case.

Over to the SNP to make the case.

[Steven79]

It’s not really. Oh and no one has said we cannot have a democratic vote. Well not since Theresa May and at that stage she had a reason as brexit hadn’t been settled.

Much as you want it to be, Boris, Brexit and a Broken Union are not a case for Independence. Granted they are good reasons to consider the case.

Over to the SNP to make the case.Have you missed the Tories constantly saying we aren't allowed one as if Scots and Scotland are a possession?

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

It’s not really. Oh and no one has said we cannot have a democratic vote. Well not since Theresa May and at that stage she had a reason as brexit hadn’t been settled.
....


Didn't Johnson, or at lest his representatives, say exactly that recently?

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-blocked-legal-routes-27330798

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-flatly-rejects-nicola-27229708

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/14/boris-johnson-news-brexit-ni-protocol-sturgeon-independence/

(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/14/boris-johnson-news-brexit-ni-protocol-sturgeon-independence/)https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-rules-out-indyref2_uk_62a86121e4b0cdccbe552ebe

[ronaldo7]

Where can I find this case? Lol.

It's not actually a case, more plastic bags filled with euros, courtesy of your next leader.

[ronaldo7]

Didn't Johnson, or at lest his representatives, say exactly that recently?

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-blocked-legal-routes-27330798

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-flatly-rejects-nicola-27229708

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/14/boris-johnson-news-brexit-ni-protocol-sturgeon-independence/

(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/06/14/boris-johnson-news-brexit-ni-protocol-sturgeon-independence/)https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-rules-out-indyref2_uk_62a86121e4b0cdccbe552ebe

Too much information. They won't be able to cope.

[Moulin Yarns]

Where can I find this case? Lol.

Panel base e for the times.

[stoneyburn hibs]

It’s not really. Oh and no one has said we cannot have a democratic vote. Well not since Theresa May and at that stage she had a reason as brexit hadn’t been settled.

Much as you want it to be, Boris, Brexit and a Broken Union are not a case for Independence. Granted they are good reasons to consider the case.

Over to the SNP to make the case.

Boris, Brexit and a broken Union.
You want the SNP to convince you?
All your words,
Would a half hour in parliament with Nicola stroking your ego work ?
What a load of jobbies.

[Callum_62]

. Well not since Theresa May and at that stage she had a reason as brexit hadn’t been settled.



Its brilliant that you say that line as if that's entirely hunky dory and normal

Scotland, your democracy can wait, we are a bit busy down here



Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

First full scale Scottish poll since announcement, Panelbase in the Sunday Times:

Y 51 N 49 ex-DK

or Y 48 N 47 DK 5

First Panelbase poll for about a year with a Y lead.

Support/Oppose NS timescale: S 43 O 44 DK 13

[Steven79]

Its brilliant that you say that line as if that's entirely hunky dory and normal

Scotland, your democracy can wait, we are a bit busy down here



Sent from my VOG-L29 using TapatalkI truly don't understand the mentality of many Scots.

Far too many sheep in Scotland that just accept what we are given from our "masters" down in England.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[Frazerbob]

I truly don't understand the mentality of many Scots.

Far too many sheep in Scotland that just accept what we are given from our "masters" down in England.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

It really is bizarre.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/snp-campaign-launched-to-get-scots-to-register-to-vote-ahead-of-planned-indyref2

Get yourself registered.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jack]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/snp-campaign-launched-to-get-scots-to-register-to-vote-ahead-of-planned-indyref2

Get yourself registered.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

... and/or apply for a postal vote - just in case you are away or unable for any other reason to visit the polling station on the day.

[degenerated]

I truly don't understand the mentality of many Scots.

Far too many sheep in Scotland that just accept what we are given from our "masters" down in England.

Sent from my SM-G960F using TapatalkIt's that it is celebrated as some sort of victory that baffles me.

[lapsedhibee]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/snp-campaign-launched-to-get-scots-to-register-to-vote-ahead-of-planned-indyref2

Get yourself registered.[emoji106]


"The importance of registering to vote ahead of the independence referendum cannot be overstated."

Think Mike Russell did just overstate it, right there. Will you be prevented from voting if you don't register? No. Bad start imo. :bitchy:

[He's here!]

It really is bizarre.

Not so bizarre if, like me, you have always felt British and Scottish and are happy to remain so for a whole host of reasons (none of which have anything to do with politics). I've posted my feelings on this a few times, most recently on the case for the union thread.

[Eaststand]

Not so bizarre if, like me, you have always felt British and Scottish and are happy to remain so for a whole host of reasons (none of which have anything to do with politics). I've posted my feelings on this a few times, most recently on the case for the union thread.
As John McEnroe said, You cannot be serious.

I really can't see how you or any other Unionists can claim to be both British and Scottish.

Scotland is a country so that should mean for anyone born in Scotland or adopting our Country to live and work in, Scottish is surely their nationality.

Westminster Governments have for years tried to dilute the Scottish nationality, so Scotland is to be thought of as nothing more than a mere region of their precious Union.

I feel genuine sadness for those who can't see through the long running Westminster charade and claim their nationality as British

GGTTH

[Moulin Yarns]

"The importance of registering to vote ahead of the independence referendum cannot be overstated."

Think Mike Russell did just overstate it, right there. Will you be prevented from voting if you don't register? No. Bad start imo. :bitchy:

I'm confused, how can you vote if you are not on the electoral register?

[The Modfather]

As John McEnroe said, You cannot be serious.

I really can't see how you or any other Unionists can claim to be both British and Scottish.

Scotland is a country so that should mean for anyone born in Scotland or adopting our Country to live and work in, Scottish is surely their nationality.

Westminster Governments have for years tried to dilute the Scottish nationality, so Scotland is to be thought of as nothing more than a mere region of their precious Union.

I feel genuine sadness for those who can't see through the long running Westminster charade and claim their nationality as British

GGTTH

That’s a poor post IMO. Nothing wrong or illogical about feeling Scottish and British. I’m not sure there’s much of an economic case for the status quo, certainly some just ignore those questions. The emotional side to to independence or not is a valid reason for either yay or nay IMO.

[Ozyhibby]

That’s a poor post IMO. Nothing wrong or illogical about feeling Scottish and British. I’m not sure there’s much of an economic case for the status quo, certainly some just ignore those questions. The emotional side to to independence or not is a valid reason for either yay or nay IMO.

Yip, I agree. There isn’t much of an economic case for the union anymore as it starts to sink but always have sympathy for those who identify as British and want to stay that way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Eaststand]

That’s a poor post IMO. Nothing wrong or illogical about feeling Scottish and British. I’m not sure there’s much of an economic case for the status quo, certainly some just ignore those questions. The emotional side to to independence or not is a valid reason for either yay or nay IMO.

I can accept there are people who want to be part of a union, it's not my chosen future but that's their choice.
However I don't see any reason for even those who want to remain in a union to call themselves anything other than Scottish.
I have friends in London and Liverpool who would always call themselves English and definitely not British. I respect that view.

Why would anyone need to call themselves anything more than the nationality of their country.

What will those who choose to have two named nationalities call themselves after we are independent. Answers on a five pound note please 👍

GGTTH

[grunt]

Will you be prevented from voting if you don't register? No. :confused:

[Kato]

That’s a poor post IMO. Nothing wrong or illogical about feeling Scottish and British. I’m not sure there’s much of an economic case for the status quo, certainly some just ignore those questions. The emotional side to to independence or not is a valid reason for either yay or nay IMO.I'm finding it increasingly hard to use the "status quo" any longer. The UK we have all known the last 50 years is gone. We are only at the thin of the wedge with Brexit and the thicker the wedge gets the more is going to change. Looking at who is driving all of these changes you can be assured it won't be to the working classes benefits - the middle classes will also get it in the neck.

There is no "status quo" its a "year zero" situation and if anyone who supports the Union can claim to know the direction we are going I'd be pretty interested in hearing it.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

I'm confused, how can you vote if you are not on the electoral register?


:confused:

Quite right. I (mis)understood his point to be about registering for the referendum/campaign. :doh:

Good start imo. :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

I can accept there are people who want to be part of a union, it's not my chosen future but that's their choice.
However I don't see any reason for even those who want to remain in a union to call themselves anything other than Scottish.
I have friends in London and Liverpool who would always call themselves English and definitely not British. I respect that view.

Why would anyone need to call themselves anything more than the nationality of their country.

What will those who choose to have two named nationalities call themselves after we are independent. Answers on a five pound note please ��

GGTTH
Scottish and European?
Scottish and Leither?

[Eaststand]

Scottish and European?
Scottish and Leither?

I'm very proud of being born in Leith and of my Leith heritage but I've only one nationality and that's Scottish.
I'd never claim to be anything else.

GGTTH

[lapsedhibee]

I'm very proud of being born in Leith and of my Leith heritage but I've only one nationality and that's Scottish.
I'd never claim to be anything else.

GGTTH
Yes but it's easy to see how a lot of folk are perfectly comfortable with more than one geographical identity.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm very proud of being born in Leith and of my Leith heritage but I've only one nationality and that's Scottish.
I'd never claim to be anything else.

GGTTH

Which is fine for you (and me) but not for someone whose country is Britain. There’s lots of them about.

[Eaststand]

Yes but it's easy to see how a lot of folk are perfectly comfortable with more than one geographical identity.

Is it really ? I'm Scottish, no doubts about my nationality just Scottish.

I just don't get those who choose to call themselves more than one nationality. Choices eh.

We live in the continent of Europe. I wonder how many people call themselves Europeans, not many I'd think

GGTTH

[Just_Jimmy]

I can accept there are people who want to be part of a union, it's not my chosen future but that's their choice.
However I don't see any reason for even those who want to remain in a union to call themselves anything other than Scottish.
I have friends in London and Liverpool who would always call themselves English and definitely not British. I respect that view.

Why would anyone need to call themselves anything more than the nationality of their country.

What will those who choose to have two named nationalities call themselves after we are independent. Answers on a five pound note please [emoji106]

GGTTHI'm not writing on a five pound note. I'll soon need it to buy a litre of petrol.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

[Eaststand]

I'm not writing on a five pound note. I'll soon need it to buy a litre of petrol.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

Ha, aye you're right and in a few years time you'll probably look back on this post and dream about the days when petrol was only a fiver a litre 😮

GGTTH

[He's here!]

As John McEnroe said, You cannot be serious.

I really can't see how you or any other Unionists can claim to be both British and Scottish.

Scotland is a country so that should mean for anyone born in Scotland or adopting our Country to live and work in, Scottish is surely their nationality.

Westminster Governments have for years tried to dilute the Scottish nationality, so Scotland is to be thought of as nothing more than a mere region of their precious Union.

I feel genuine sadness for those who can't see through the long running Westminster charade and claim their nationality as British

GGTTH

That's a pretty narrow outlook IMHO.

Having spent much of my life living and working around the UK I reckon I feel as much empathy with those I know in, for example, Cardiff and London, as I do with folk from Edinburgh, Glasgow or Inverness (just a selection of the places I've worked). When I've worked elsewhere in the UK I'm most definitely known as Scottish but I also regard myself as very much part of the greater whole. I find it hard to see what's wrong with that.

[Hibrandenburg]

Is it really ? I'm Scottish, no doubts about my nationality just Scottish.

I just don't get those who choose to call themselves more than one nationality. Choices eh.

We live in the continent of Europe. I wonder how many people call themselves Europeans, not many I'd think

GGTTH

I'm definitely European and German and have a passport that confirms that and also allows me to travel, work or live in any EU country. I'm also Scottish and British with a passport that proves that and allows me to travel, work or live in any UK country. But it's not only documentation that maketh a person, even after independence I'd still remain British because of geography, whether I'm emotionally attached to any of those geographical locations is another question but a no less valid reason for feeling any of the above mentioned.

[Eaststand]

That's a pretty narrow outlook IMHO.

Having spent much of my life living and working around the UK I reckon I feel as much empathy with those I know in, for example, Cardiff and London, as I do with folk from Edinburgh, Glasgow or Inverness (just a selection of the places I've worked). When I've worked elsewhere in the UK I'm most definitely known as Scottish but I also regard myself as very much part of the greater whole. I find it hard to see what's wrong with that.

I've also worked around Britain with lots of folks from other countries and most people I've mixed with feel the same as I do.
Welsh, Irish, Scots and English I've met usually declare their nationality as that of their country of birth, and that's it.

Scotland is my country of birth, so I don't need any alternative at all to describe my nationality. Why would I.
Saying I'm Scottish is all I need to describe where I'm from.
I genuinely don't get this need for people to declare themselves as British as well as Scottish.

Geographically Scotland share the British Isles with 3 other countries and they all have separate nationalities and Identities.
Calling myself Scottish works just fine for me

Do you often describe yourself as being a European ?

GGTTH

[lapsedhibee]

I've also worked around Britain with lots of folks from other countries and most people I've mixed with feel the same as I do.
Welsh, Irish, Scots and English I've met usually declare their nationality as that if their country of birth, and that's it.


Are you happy for Welsh-born people resident in Scotland to vote in the upcoming referendum?

[Stairway 2 7]

I've also worked around Britain with lots of folks from other countries and most people I've mixed with feel the same as I do.
Welsh, Irish, Scots and English I've met usually declare their nationality as that if their country of birth, and that's it.

Scotland is my country of birth, so I don't need any alternative at all to describe my nationality. Why would I.
Saying I'm Scottish is all I need to describe where I'm from.

Do you often describe yourself as being a European ?

GGTTH
You think like this, others think different..

Nationality is a load of pish anyway. Defining yourself by an accident of where you were born. Good people and aresholes in every nation, look at Tony Benn and Wallace mercer.

[Eaststand]

Are you happy for Welsh-born people resident in Scotland to vote in the upcoming referendum?

I'm more than happy with those you describe voting in the next referendum. Anyone who qualifies to vote should definitely do so. 👍

GGTTH

[Ozyhibby]

You think like this, others think different..

Nationality is a load of pish anyway. Defining yourself by an accident of where you were born. Good people and aresholes in every nation, look at Tony Benn and Wallace mercer.

I often self identify as an ********.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

That's a pretty narrow outlook IMHO.

Having spent much of my life living and working around the UK I reckon I feel as much empathy with those I know in, for example, Cardiff and London, as I do with folk from Edinburgh, Glasgow or Inverness (just a selection of the places I've worked). When I've worked elsewhere in the UK I'm most definitely known as Scottish but I also regard myself as very much part of the greater whole. I find it hard to see what's wrong with that.


I think the vast majority of us totally respect your viewpoint mate, even if our own view is very different


:aok:

[Moulin Yarns]

Which is fine for you (and me) but not for someone whose country is Britain. There’s lots of them about.

There is no country called Britain, there might be a loose amalgam of nations which are part of the British Isles or the thing people call 'great Britain' and it really annoys me when filling those online forms asking for nationality with drop down menus that only offer British.

BTW I'm Scottish and born in Haddington (for my sins) :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

I often self identify as an ********.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We know, but were just too afraid to point it out :wink:

[Eaststand]

There is no country called Britain, there might be a loose amalgam of nations which are part of the British Isles or the thing people call 'great Britain' and it really annoys me when filling those online forms asking for nationality with drop down menus that only offer British.

BTW I'm Scottish and born in Haddington (for my sins) :greengrin

Exactly
Where is the 'like' button for this post 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

GGTTH

[Bostonhibby]

I often self identify as an ********.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSome of my best friends are erseholes[emoji6]

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Berwickhibby]

I identify as being Brit/Scot but according to KFC, I am a family of 4 mega bucket :greengrin:greengrin

[Jack]

That's a pretty narrow outlook IMHO.

Having spent much of my life living and working around the UK I reckon I feel as much empathy with those I know in, for example, Cardiff and London, as I do with folk from Edinburgh, Glasgow or Inverness (just a selection of the places I've worked). When I've worked elsewhere in the UK I'm most definitely known as Scottish but I also regard myself as very much part of the greater whole. I find it hard to see what's wrong with that.

If your are abroad and someone asks if you're English how do you respond?

[He's here!]

If your are abroad and someone asks if you're English how do you respond?

Not sure I've ever been asked that while abroad. Every time I've been in the US I get asked if I'm Irish though.

If I was asked that I'd correct them and say I'm Scottish. I think some folk are misunderstanding what I'm saying though. I don't make a point of stating I'm Scottish and British. I just don't have an issue being part of the greater whole and never will. Hardly an unusual or controversial point of view, much as it seems to bamboozle some.

If being British is a source of dissatisfaction for some then fair enough. What does rile me is the likes of Sturgeon and that windbag Blackford endlessly chuntering on about 'the people of Scotland' as though they speak for us all.

[Just Alf]

Not sure I've ever been asked that while abroad. Every time I've been in the US I get asked if I'm Irish though.

If I was asked that I'd correct them and say I'm Scottish. I think some folk are misunderstanding what I'm saying though. I don't make a point of stating I'm Scottish and British. I just don't have an issue being part of the greater whole and never will. Hardly an unusual or controversial point of view, much as it seems to bamboozle some.

If being British is a source of dissatisfaction for some then fair enough. What does rile me is the likes of Sturgeon and that windbag Blackford endlessly chuntering on about 'the people of Scotland' as though they speak for us all."People of Scotland " ... its a politician thing... Douglas Ross said exactly the same on Tuesday about the people of Scotland not wanting a divisive referendum.... (you just know that's how he'll mention referendum every time from now on!)...

[Just Alf]

That's a pretty narrow outlook IMHO.

Having spent much of my life living and working around the UK I reckon I feel as much empathy with those I know in, for example, Cardiff and London, as I do with folk from Edinburgh, Glasgow or Inverness (just a selection of the places I've worked). When I've worked elsewhere in the UK I'm most definitely known as Scottish but I also regard myself as very much part of the greater whole. I find it hard to see what's wrong with that.I agree

And broadly agree with what you've posted, on my part though it's not stopping me wanting to have a government in Scotland with all the levers rather than much of it held at Westminster

[lapsedhibee]

(you just know that's how he'll mention referendum every time from now on!)...
Murray's very subtle that way, isn't he. I think I might have heard him mention 'illegal referendum' once or twice as well.

[Glory Lurker]

I consider myself Scottish and European.

I know nobody asked me, but I just like saying it :-)

[Ozyhibby]

I consider myself Scottish and European.

I know nobody asked me, but I just like saying it :-)

Hopefully you’ll soon have a passport that says so.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

If your are abroad and someone asks if you're English how do you respond?

Well that would get challenged obviously as not from England. What if someone said is there anyone here from Britain, would you say yes. I'd probably say yes from Scotland

[danhibees1875]

If your are abroad and someone asks if you're English how do you respond?

I think it would depend on the context of who was asking and why, either "yes" or "No, Scottish actually".

[degenerated]

I see it's groundhog Day again. I assume that Gordon brown has been defrosted and dragged out the crypt again.

https://twitter.com/BBCGaryR/status/1543837498413142016?t=6ipwUdQH3aHsmydePFMa_Q&s=19

[Jones28]

I see it's groundhog Day again. I assume that Gordon brown has been defrosted and dragged out the crypt again.

https://twitter.com/BBCGaryR/status/1543837498413142016?t=6ipwUdQH3aHsmydePFMa_Q&s=19

I was wondering when they would dust off the "vow".

[He's here!]

Well that would get challenged obviously as not from England. What if someone said is there anyone here from Britain, would you say yes. I'd probably say yes from Scotland

Bit of a tangent but it was interesting listening to British No 1 Cameron Norrie talking about his nationality after reaching the Wimbledon quarter-finals yesterday.

Born in South Africa to a dad from Glasgow and a mum from Cardiff, brought up in New Zealand from the age of 3, tennis college in the US as a teenager and now living in London. Not surprisingly he found it hard to say where he was from.

Following Andy Murray's remarkable career can we claim him as Scottish?

[JeMeSouviens]

Bit of a tangent but it was interesting listening to British No 1 Cameron Norrie talking about his nationality after reaching the Wimbledon quarter-finals yesterday.

Born in South Africa to a dad from Glasgow and a mum from Cardiff, brought up in New Zealand from the age of 3, tennis college in the US as a teenager and now living in London. Not surprisingly he found it hard to say where he was from.

Following Andy Murray's remarkable career can we claim him as Scottish?

I'd imagine he'd be doing diplomatic answers. Bet he supports the all-blacks! :wink:

[Smartie]

Bit of a tangent but it was interesting listening to British No 1 Cameron Norrie talking about his nationality after reaching the Wimbledon quarter-finals yesterday.

Born in South Africa to a dad from Glasgow and a mum from Cardiff, brought up in New Zealand from the age of 3, tennis college in the US as a teenager and now living in London. Not surprisingly he found it hard to say where he was from.

Following Andy Murray's remarkable career can we claim him as Scottish?

That's purely up to him but I'd be surprised if he thought anything other than that he was Scottish.

We're not great at acknowledging the complexity of dual/ mixed nationality in Scotland (see the McGeady furore of years ago) but I don't see much about Murray's heritage or life story that would suggest he's anything other than Scottish? Training for years in Catalonia as a teenager and then travelling the world as an adult don't change your nationality.

Although the naughty part of me thinks that you'd be quite keen to distance Scotland from any sort of success story.

[He's here!]

That's purely up to him but I'd be surprised if he thought anything other than that he was Scottish.

We're not great at acknowledging the complexity of dual/ mixed nationality in Scotland (see the McGeady furore of years ago) but I don't see much about Murray's heritage or life story that would suggest he's anything other than Scottish? Training for years in Catalonia as a teenager and then travelling the world as an adult don't change your nationality.

Although the naughty part of me thinks that you'd be quite keen to distance Scotland from any sort of success story.

Think you've misread my post. My question is about Norrie (ie having had a Scot like Murray reach the top of the world game can we claim Norrie as another Scottish tennis success story?).

[JeMeSouviens]

There is no country called Britain, there might be a loose amalgam of nations which are part of the British Isles or the thing people call 'great Britain' and it really annoys me when filling those online forms asking for nationality with drop down menus that only offer British.

BTW I'm Scottish and born in Haddington (for my sins) :greengrin

Depending on how you define country, there is no such country as Scotland. Nationality is just what people in a place collectively decide to define themselves as. Italians have only defined themselves as such since Garibaldi & co decided to build an "Italy" out of a reasonably linguistically homogenous lump of Southern Europe less than 200 years ago.

We live in a place with 2 competing national identities. There's no particularly good reason to choose one over the other I don't think, other than a cohesive national identity would definitely make building the newly re-independent Scottish state a whole lot more straightforward. And the reasons to favour a Scottish state over the lumbering post-imperial, ****** up mess that is the UK are legion.

[Smartie]

Think you've misread my post. My question is about Norrie (ie having had a Scot like Murray reach the top of the world game can we claim Norrie as another Scottish tennis success story?).

:greengrin

Hilariously so.

Apologies for the resultant wee pop at the end.

FWIW I think we can claim a very small part of Norrie's story but not get in any way carried away about it. Ultimately I guess it should be up to Norrie. If he feels Scottish more than anything then we should enjoy it as such.

[He's here!]

:greengrin

Hilariously so.

Apologies for the resultant wee pop at the end.

FWIW I think we can claim a very small part of Norrie's story but not get in any way carried away about it. Ultimately I guess it should be up to Norrie. If he feels Scottish more than anything then we should enjoy it as such.

No worries :greengrin


As you mentioned in your earlier post Murray had to move to Spain at a very young age to get where he did in the tennis world (and Scotland obviously played no part in Norrie's development as a tennis player) and while he's a proud Scot I'm sure it must be a source of frustration to him that there appears to have been so little serious effort made to build on his (and his brother Jamie's) legacy, both in Scotland and the UK.

Judy Murray has aired those frustrations before:

Judy Murray: Chance to build tennis legacy in Scotland 'largely wasted' - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59460424)

Obviously going way off thread here but I've often thought the way football relentless dominates the sporting agenda here when we're actually not especially good at it is a bit daft when there are so many other great sports out there for kids to thrive at.

[ronaldo7]

No worries :greengrin


As you mentioned in your earlier post Murray had to move to Spain at a very young age to get where he did in the tennis world (and Scotland obviously played no part in Norrie's development as a tennis player) and while he's a proud Scot I'm sure it must be a source of frustration to him that there appears to have been so little serious effort made to build on his (and his brother Jamie's) legacy, both in Scotland and the UK.

Judy Murray has aired those frustrations before:

Judy Murray: Chance to build tennis legacy in Scotland 'largely wasted' - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59460424)

Obviously going way off thread here but I've often thought the way football relentless dominates the sporting agenda here when we're actually not especially good at it is a bit daft when there are so many other great sports out there for kids to thrive at.

We opened the national tennis academy in Stirling in 2019.

The LTA have decided to shut it in 2024.

Guess what. It's moving to England. It looks like young upcoming Scots will have to go elsewhere again.

[degenerated]

We opened the national tennis academy in Stirling in 2019.

The LTA have decided to shut it in 2024.

Guess what. It's moving to England. It looks like young upcoming Scots will have to go elsewhere again.Maybe we're not going to be allowed to play tennis in an independent Scotland :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Maybe we're not going to be allowed to play tennis in an independent Scotland :greengrin

Not many pitches about. :wink:

[He's here!]

We opened the national tennis academy in Stirling in 2019.

The LTA have decided to shut it in 2024.

Guess what. It's moving to England. It looks like young upcoming Scots will have to go elsewhere again.

How many young, upcoming Scots have come through the national tennis academy since then? The answer is one.

This was a botched, half-baked idea which ended up simply making all-too rare indoor tennis facilities unavailable to younger kids who would have benefited from them. The LTA are as much to blame as Tennis Scotland and Sportscotland, with their much-vaunted proclamation back in 2016 that they'd double the number of indoor courts in Scotland in the next 5-10 years resulting in not a single court being built six years later.

Meanwhile, Judy Murray, who actually has the knowledge and experience of what's required, has seen her plans for a centre of excellence at Dunbalne (not just for tennis but other sports) which would build kids' sporting prowess from the ground up (instead of expecting near fully-formed Andy and Jamie Murrays to walk through the door of the academy) has been beset by council red tape for years.

[ronaldo7]

How many young, upcoming Scots have come through the national tennis academy since then? The answer is one.

This was a botched, half-baked idea which ended up simply making all-too rare indoor tennis facilities unavailable to younger kids who would have benefited from them. The LTA are as much to blame as Tennis Scotland and Sportscotland, with their much-vaunted proclamation back in 2016 that they'd double the number of indoor courts in Scotland in the next 5-10 years resulting in not a single court being built six years later.

Meanwhile, Judy Murray, who actually has the knowledge and experience of what's required, has seen her plans for a centre of excellence at Dunbalne (not just for tennis but other sports) which would build kids' sporting prowess from the ground up (instead of expecting near fully-formed Andy and Jamie Murrays to walk through the door of the academy) has been beset by council red tape for years.

It only opened in 2019 ffs. In the intervening years we've had a bit to contend with.

If you go into the background of the sport, I'm sure you'll find all sorts of difficulties with funding being removed, or decisions reversed.

Bottom line is that they're shutting it and moving it to Loughborough. How will this help?

Towards the end of 2016, the Lawn Tennis Association and sport Scotland proclaimed that the number of covered courts in Scotland would be doubled by 2026 thanks to a £15m joint-funding agreement. During that timeframe it was hoped the number of covered tennis courts north of the Border would rise from 112 to 225.

There is little sign of that target being achieved and the closure of the academy in Stirling is bad news for a sport hoping to increase participation and capitalise on the success of the Murray brothers who have 10 Grand Slam victories between them.

The next Andy Murray will probably be going back to Spain to learn his trade.

[He's here!]

Won't tick any boxes with most on this forum obviously but a lot of this analysis will chime with those who have long found the SNP and independence a soul-sapping combo:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/07/03/how-nicola-sturgeon-turned-scotland-failed-state/

[ronaldo7]

Won't tick any boxes with most on this forum obviously but a lot of this analysis will chime with those who have long found the SNP and independence a soul-sapping combo:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/07/03/how-nicola-sturgeon-turned-scotland-failed-state/

Is this the same Tom Harris who said all the powers currently in Brussels would come back to the Scottish parliament after we left the EU. The leader of vote leave in Scotland?


In a direct appeal to wavering nationalists, Tom Harris, the Scottish Vote Leave director, said ministers in Edinburgh would be able to properly exercise all their devolved powers if the EU were unable to limit or influence its law-making.

Under the UK’s devolution laws, Holyrood has wide-ranging powers independent of Westminster to dictate its own policies and laws on crime, education, health, transport, farming, the environment, the economy and, to a more limited extent, welfare and taxation.

A soul-sapping combo indeed. Him and the Internal market bill from the Tories is a match made in heaven.

[degenerated]

Won't tick any boxes with most on this forum obviously but a lot of this analysis will chime with those who have long found the SNP and independence a soul-sapping combo:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/07/03/how-nicola-sturgeon-turned-scotland-failed-state/Tom Harris :hilarious

[James310]

Is this the same Tom Harris who said all the powers currently in Brussels would come back to the Scottish parliament after we left the EU. The leader of vote leave in Scotland?


In a direct appeal to wavering nationalists, Tom Harris, the Scottish Vote Leave director, said ministers in Edinburgh would be able to properly exercise all their devolved powers if the EU were unable to limit or influence its law-making.

Under the UK’s devolution laws, Holyrood has wide-ranging powers independent of Westminster to dictate its own policies and laws on crime, education, health, transport, farming, the environment, the economy and, to a more limited extent, welfare and taxation.

A soul-sapping combo indeed. Him and the Internal market bill from the Tories is a match made in heaven.

Putting aside who wrote the article are you happy that the powers you claim should have gone to Holyrood would then be immediately sent back to Brussels if Scotland was Independent? Why would you demand the powers now and get them for a few years, but then be happy to give them up and hand them back to Brussels upon Independence?

What kind of powers are we talking about as an example?

[Ozyhibby]

Putting aside who wrote the article are you happy that the powers you claim should have gone to Holyrood would then be immediately sent back to Brussels if Scotland was Independent? Why would you demand the powers now and get them for a few years, but then be happy to give them up and hand them back to Brussels upon Independence?

What kind of powers are we talking about as an example?

I would trade those powers for access to the single market. That’s seems like a great deal.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

Putting aside who wrote the article are you happy that the powers you claim should have gone to Holyrood would then be immediately sent back to Brussels if Scotland was Independent? I'm going to regret engaging with you, but whatever. The whole "sent back to Brussels" thing is a complete misunderstanding of the nature of the EU. As members of the EU we have a voice and a vote in decisions made in Brussels. In most cases we can choose to go along on not as the case may be. In 97% of cases, Brussels laws were ones we wanted.

So to suggest that we are "sending back" powers to Brussels is to completely misunderstand the relationship between EU member states and the EU. It's not surprising, this misunderstanding was central to the Leave vote.

[Keith_M]

Putting aside who wrote the article are you happy that the powers you claim should have gone to Holyrood would then be immediately sent back to Brussels if Scotland was Independent? Why would you demand the powers now and get them for a few years, but then be happy to give them up and hand them back to Brussels upon Independence?

What kind of powers are we talking about as an example?


The people of Scotland voted for those powers to remain under the auspices of the EU, but we were outvoted by the rest of our glorious Union.

It's hardly hypocritical to then want to abide by our original wishes if/when we rejoined the EU.


I realise sticking to your word (and principles) is an idea alien to Tory and Labour alike but, if they think about it really hard, I have every confidence that they'll eventually understand the concept.

[ronaldo7]

Putting aside who wrote the article are you happy that the powers you claim should have gone to Holyrood would then be immediately sent back to Brussels if Scotland was Independent? Why would you demand the powers now and get them for a few years, but then be happy to give them up and hand them back to Brussels upon Independence?

What kind of powers are we talking about as an example?

Firstly, how can I put aside the person writing the article. He was the vote leave leader in Scotland. Secondly, I've not claimed anything, he did, when he said the powers would come back to Scotland from the EU, if the UK voted leave, however, your party did the dirty on us with the Internal market bill. Thirdly, on your substantive point. We'd not be handing anything back, we'd be negotiating a deal whether EFTA, in the EEA, per Norway, or in time, full membership. Imagine negotiating deals with countries who you trust and vice versa. :aok:

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm going to regret engaging with you, but whatever. The whole "sent back to Brussels" thing is a complete misunderstanding of the nature of the EU. As members of the EU we have a voice and a vote in decisions made in Brussels. In most cases we can choose to go along on not as the case may be. In 97% of cases, Brussels laws were ones we wanted.

So to suggest that we are "sending back" powers to Brussels is to completely misunderstand the relationship between EU member states and the EU. It's not surprising, this misunderstanding was central to the Leave vote.

Excellent post. The framing of “Brussels” as a foreign power handing down rules to the plucky Brits who take orders from nobody and rule the waves is such a load of Brexiteer pish. It’s a co-operation and the UK used to be one of its leading voices. The reality is that we (and rUK for that matter) should be doing everything possible to get on the inside and influence decisions as much as we can.

[JeMeSouviens]

Tom Harris :hilarious

How can a regional government be a “failed state”? :confused:

[James310]

I'm going to regret engaging with you, but whatever. The whole "sent back to Brussels" thing is a complete misunderstanding of the nature of the EU. As members of the EU we have a voice and a vote in decisions made in Brussels. In most cases we can choose to go along on not as the case may be. In 97% of cases, Brussels laws were ones we wanted.

So to suggest that we are "sending back" powers to Brussels is to completely misunderstand the relationship between EU member states and the EU. It's not surprising, this misunderstanding was central to the Leave vote.

Fair point, but the point was also made powers after Brexit were being "sent" to Westminster rather than Holyrood. If they go one way after Brexit logic dictates they go back the other way if you join the EU. You can't gain power X after Brexit and hold onto power X in the same way if you join the EU.

But I do get what you mean.

[Kato]

Fair point, but the point was also made powers after Brexit were being "sent" to Westminster rather than Holyrood. If they go one way after Brexit logic dictates they go back the other way if you join the EU. You can't gain power X after Brexit and hold onto power X in the same way if you join the EU.

But I do get what you mean.You can theorise about who you would want to devolve those powers to, Westminster or Brussels. I'd choose the most sober of the two.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

How can a regional government be a “failed state”? :confused:

Didn’t read the article because it was behind a paywall. Did he seriously refer to Scotland as a failed state?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kato]

Didn’t read the article because it was behind a paywall. Did he seriously refer to Scotland as a failed state?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYes. Its in the headline, which is as far as I got.

Hope they keep the standard up.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[degenerated]

You can theorise about who you would want to devolve those powers to, Westminster or Brussels. I'd choose the most sober of the two.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkWe would have more say and more influence in the application of any of these powers ceded back to the EU than we do with UK government managing them on our behalf.

[Kato]

We would have more say and more influence in the application of any of these powers ceded back to the EU than we do with UK government managing them on our behalf.

'Managing them", yeah good one.

You just know they'd seek to wreck any process and start pointing fingers.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Bristolhibby]

No worries :greengrin


As you mentioned in your earlier post Murray had to move to Spain at a very young age to get where he did in the tennis world (and Scotland obviously played no part in Norrie's development as a tennis player) and while he's a proud Scot I'm sure it must be a source of frustration to him that there appears to have been so little serious effort made to build on his (and his brother Jamie's) legacy, both in Scotland and the UK.

Judy Murray has aired those frustrations before:

Judy Murray: Chance to build tennis legacy in Scotland 'largely wasted' - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59460424)

Obviously going way off thread here but I've often thought the way football relentless dominates the sporting agenda here when we're actually not especially good at it is a bit daft when there are so many other great sports out there for kids to thrive at.

The other thing I have found is the Antipodeans become naturalised very quickly.

My Brother in law lives out in Australia and one of his wife’s school friends (from Melbourne) was born in Dunfermline to Scottish parents and emigrated to Australia when she was a baby. “So your Scottish” I said, “no I’m Australian with Scottish parents”.

Lots of first gen Australians were like that.

Where as ask an American with a surname Murphy and 100% they will say they are Irish.

J

[He's here!]

The other thing I have found is the Antipodeans become naturalised very quickly.

My Brother in law lives out in Australia and one of his wife’s school friends (from Melbourne) was born in Dunfermline to Scottish parents and emigrated to Australia when she was a baby. “So your Scottish” I said, “no I’m Australian with Scottish parents”.

Lots of first gen Australians were like that.

Where as ask an American with a surname Murphy and 100% they will say they are Irish.

J

'We are one but we are many
From all corners of the earth we come
We share a dream, and sing with one voice
I am, you are, we are Australian'

[grunt]

... the point was also made powers after Brexit were being "sent" to Westminster rather than Holyrood.
This is a completely different issue. The problem with the UK Government's Internal Markets Bill is that it is taking control of issues which were previously devolved, and funds which Scotland previously obtained directly from the EU. UK Gov is seeking to emasculate the devolved administrations. Another reason why we need independence, and quickly.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1543089661354168320

JuliaDavisNews
Meanwhile on Russian state TV: State Duma member Evgeny Popov, who is also the host of the state TV show 60 Minutes, says that Scotland, seeking to hold a referendum on Scottish independence, "should reach out to Russian hackers for help —after all, they helped to elect Trump

[Jack]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1543089661354168320

JuliaDavisNews
Meanwhile on Russian state TV: State Duma member Evgeny Popov, who is also the host of the state TV show 60 Minutes, says that Scotland, seeking to hold a referendum on Scottish independence, "should reach out to Russian hackers for help —after all, they helped to elect Trump

... and probably BJ.

[Ozyhibby]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1543089661354168320

JuliaDavisNews
Meanwhile on Russian state TV: State Duma member Evgeny Popov, who is also the host of the state TV show 60 Minutes, says that Scotland, seeking to hold a referendum on Scottish independence, "should reach out to Russian hackers for help —after all, they helped to elect Trump

Does this prove Indy is a bad idea because Putin might like it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Does this prove Indy is a bad idea because Putin might like it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What Putin likes and dislikes has become increasingly irrelevant as the year has gone on

[He's here!]

Lord Advocate did not have confidence to sign off on indyref2 bill:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62051703

[James310]

Lord Advocate did not have confidence to sign off on indyref2 bill:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62051703

As predicted, so very unlikely there will be a referendum next year again as predicted.

So Nicola Sturgeon has painted herself into a bit of a corner here, win the next GE with 50% or more of the vote and guess what...she still needs a referendum. Get less than 50% and that's the SNP 'lost' the referendum without even having one. She has played a blinder.

[The Tubs]

As predicted, so very unlikely there will be a referendum next year again as predicted.

So Nicola Sturgeon has painted herself into a bit of a corner here, win the next GE with 50% or more of the vote and guess what...she still needs a referendum. Get less than 50% and that's the SNP 'lost' the referendum without even having one. She has played a blinder.

Not that I have a clue about this but, according to the BBC gadgie's analysis in the article, it may not make much difference to how the situation will progress.

[James310]

Not that I have a clue about this but, according to the BBC gadgie's analysis in the article, it may not make much difference to how the situation will progress.

It confirms she would not sign it off which to be fair most people predicted. She will still argue for it if it gets as far as the Supreme Court, they may still chuck it out because ironically the Scottish Government argued on a case last year brought by an Indy supporter that the court should not deal in hypotheticals.

[The Tubs]

It confirms she would not sign it off which to be fair most people predicted. She will still argue for it if it gets as far as the Supreme Court, they may still chuck it out because ironically the Scottish Government argued on a case last year brought by an Indy supporter that the court should not deal in hypotheticals.

Why do you use "if" in your response?

[Ozyhibby]

Lord Advocate did not have confidence to sign off on indyref2 bill:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62051703

What’s new here? Isn’t that why it’s been sent to the Supreme Court?
The Lord Advocate wouldn’t be bringing the case to the Supreme Court if she did have confidence?
This is stuff we already know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

Why do you use "if" in your response?

Because the Supreme Court could rule they won't even look at it, a court is there to rule on matters of law not to give a legal opinion. A case last year was brought by a prominent Indy supporter regarding IndyRef2 illustrated this.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55955965


It was ruled as "hypothetical, academic and premature". There are some arguments that as the SG has only published a draft bill then the Supreme Court could say the same i.e. let's see the full bill and we will rule if it's legal, if not what are you asking us to rule on? A hypothetical scenario?

[James310]

What’s new here? Isn’t that why it’s been sent to the Supreme Court?
The Lord Advocate wouldn’t be bringing the case to the Supreme Court if she did have confidence?
This is stuff we already know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You were always saying that Boris and the Tory's would have to challenge it in court, so it would be framed as the people of Scotland v Boris Johnson but that's never going to happen now. Nobody in the UK Government is taking the Scottish Government to court to block anything. It's the Scottish Government themselves taking it to court, and nobody from UK Government is involved.

[Ozyhibby]

You were always saying that Boris and the Tory's would have to challenge it in court, so it would be framed as the people of Scotland v Boris Johnson but that's never going to happen now. Nobody in the UK Government is taking the Scottish Government to court to block anything. It's the Scottish Government themselves taking it to court, and nobody from UK Government is involved.

They would have used a proxy anyway. Pamela Nash or some such.
You keep delighting in the fact that the law is going to deny us from having a vote. That won’t hold forever. I have confidence that eventually democracy will prevail. It is something that some of us really value, whatever way we vote on things. The right to choose how we are governed from time to time is very important to some of us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

You were always saying that Boris and the Tory's would have to challenge it in court, so it would be framed as the people of Scotland v Boris Johnson but that's never going to happen now. Nobody in the UK Government is taking the Scottish Government to court to block anything. It's the Scottish Government themselves taking it to court, and nobody from UK Government is involved.How is it possible that you get everything backwards?

[He's here!]

What’s new here? Isn’t that why it’s been sent to the Supreme Court?
The Lord Advocate wouldn’t be bringing the case to the Supreme Court if she did have confidence?
This is stuff we already know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm guessing it's because questions were raised in Holyrood and by the media last week re whether, with Sturgeon deciding to go straight to the Supreme Court, we'd ever know whether the Lord Advocate would have approved a bill (see Glenn Campbell's analysis in here):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-61956472/page/2

These papers obviously confirm that she wouldn't have.

[weecounty hibby]

So unionists delighting in the fact that this "voluntary" union of equals is neither voluntary or equal. And they wonder why we want to be able to make our own decisions.

[James310]

They would have used a proxy anyway. Pamela Nash or some such.
You keep delighting in the fact that the law is going to deny us from having a vote. That won’t hold forever. I have confidence that eventually democracy will prevail. It is something that some of us really value, whatever way we vote on things. The right to choose how we are governed from time to time is very important to some of us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What if me and other No voters are happy our democratic vote in 2014 is being defended? We all voted in 2014, my democratic vote is being defended that's all. Don't you respect democracy etc.

You don't have a monopoly on democracy. While we keep seeing support at 50/50 it will hold.

[James310]

So unionists delighting in the fact that this "voluntary" union of equals is neither voluntary or equal. And they wonder why we want to be able to make our own decisions.

Delighted my democratic vote and that of the 2M in 2014 who voted No is being defended while there is no clear evidence the will of the people of Scotland has changed. It was voluntary a mere 8 years ago.

[Bristolhibby]

Delighted my democratic vote and that of the 2M in 2014 who voted No is being defended while there is no clear evidence the will of the people of Scotland has changed. It was voluntary a mere 8 years ago.

9 years is a long time.

[ronaldo7]

What if me and other No voters are happy our democratic vote in 2014 is being defended? We all voted in 2014, my democratic vote is being defended that's all. Don't you respect democracy etc.

You don't have a monopoly on democracy. While we keep seeing support at 50/50 it will hold.

You used to stand on a principle that the people of Scotland have the right to choose. You've now trashed that, and have become a democracy denier.

You know full well that 2016, and 2021 changed the landscape, but still harp back to 2014.

Democracy didn't stop in 2014, and you know it.

[degenerated]

So unionists delighting in the fact that this "voluntary" union of equals is neither voluntary or equal. And they wonder why we want to be able to make our own decisions.It's beyond delight and into tumescence :hilarious

To servility and beyond.

[weecounty hibby]

Delighted my democratic vote and that of the 2M in 2014 who voted No is being defended while there is no clear evidence the will of the people of Scotland has changed. It was voluntary a mere 8 years ago.
Let's not pretend that you are in any way interested in democracy. If you were you would be happy to argue your case and put it to the test of the vote of the people if Scotland. It will have been 9 years, brexit, a ****show of a Westminster government yet you say it was settled. At the very least the country is split 50/50 at the moment and I think this is the reason for you and others to be saying we're no gonna let you have a vote. It is fear that actually you will lose. Also cannot you not see just how stupid that argument is? The union is wonderful, it's voluntary, its an equal union. But we're not going to let you. Just let that sink in, we're not going to let you. Voluntary? Equal?

[James310]

You used to stand on a principle that the people of Scotland have the right to choose. You've now trashed that, and have become a democracy denier.

You know full well that 2016, and 2021 changed the landscape, but still harp back to 2014.

Democracy didn't stop in 2014, and you know it.

We did choose. My democracy is being defended at the moment. Not a view you agree with for sure, but a valid view to take if you were on the other side?

It has changed lots of things except the most important one, support for Independence.

[weecounty hibby]

We did choose. My democracy is being defended at the moment. Not a view you agree with for sure, but a valid view to take if you were on the other side?

It has changed lots of things except the most important one, support for Independence.
So in your world of democracy we should just keep the Tory government. After all they did win an election. Democracy isn't a one time event. Democracy moves in as world events move.

[James310]

It's beyond delight and into tumescence :hilarious

To servility and beyond.

This doesn't bother me, infact all this chat about servility and bowing down to our masters etc is exactly the thing that would put off the very people you need to win over. Not me obviously but a floating voter being told they are not as Scottish as you or being insulted is the exact thing that will keep them No. Carry on.

[Ozyhibby]

We did choose. My democracy is being defended at the moment. Not a view you agree with for sure, but a valid view to take if you were on the other side?

It has changed lots of things except the most important one, support for Independence.

You just said support for Indy was 50/50 and now you say nothing has changed since 2014? Which is it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

So in your world of democracy we should just keep the Tory government. After all they did win an election. Democracy isn't a one time event. Democracy moves in as world events move.

Elections and referendums are obviously different. We regularly have elections, we very rarely have Referendums. Referendums should be used when it is clear the will of the people has changed, almost like a rubber stamp. We have seen the problems it causes when they are not used in this way.

[James310]

You just said support for Indy was 50/50 and now you say nothing has changed since 2014? Which is it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lol, ok it's still 45/55.

[ronaldo7]

We did choose. My democracy is being defended at the moment. Not a view you agree with for sure, but a valid view to take if you were on the other side?

It has changed lots of things except the most important one, support for Independence.

I'm a Democrat.

I lost the vote in 2014, but it didn't stop me voting in the last 8 elections since then. It also didn't stop manifestos being written to try for Scottish independence again as per the Smith commission. Point 18, which all parties signed up to including your tory party.

You used to put up a coherent argument for staying with the UK, unfortunately, you're just rehashing tory party hq briefings of now is not the time, and we've had our referendum.

Sad times.

[ronaldo7]

Elections and referendums are obviously different. We regularly have elections, we very rarely have Referendums. Referendums should be used when it is clear the will of the people has changed, almost like a rubber stamp. We have seen the problems it causes when they are not used in this way.

Why did we have a referendum in 2014 when the polls only showed independence supporting voters at 28%

Have you changed the rules?

[James310]

I'm a Democrat.

I lost the vote in 2014, but it didn't stop me voting in the last 8 elections since then. It also didn't stop manifestos being written to try for Scottish independence again as per the Smith commission. Point 18, which all parties signed up to including your tory party.

You used to put up a coherent argument for staying with the UK, unfortunately, you're just rehashing tory party hq briefings of now is not the time, and we've had our referendum.

Sad times.

I am just following Nicola Sturgeons lead!

We should only have another referendum if there is clear evidence the will of the people of Scotland has changed.

[Mon Dieu4]

What if me and other No voters are happy our democratic vote in 2014 is being defended? We all voted in 2014, my democratic vote is being defended that's all. Don't you respect democracy etc.

You don't have a monopoly on democracy. While we keep seeing support at 50/50 it will hold.

I hope it does get turned down, that will only send the support for independence in one direction, I've always been one for the long game, keep Boris and the Tories in power a wee bit longer, get everyone even more scunnered

If they were clever they would call the SNP's bluff and let us have it as i genuinely think it's the last time that they Unionists will have a chance in winning

[weecounty hibby]

Elections and referendums are obviously different. We regularly have elections, we very rarely have Referendums. Referendums should be used when it is clear the will of the people has changed, almost like a rubber stamp. We have seen the problems it causes when they are not used in this way.
Switzerland have had dozens of referendums. It's only different in your world as you don't want to take the chance that you will lose

[James310]

Why did we have a referendum in 2014 when the polls only showed independence supporting voters at 28%

Have you changed the rules?

Thanks, you make my point wonderfully for me there, it was called when support for No was high and in theory the referendum was supposed to be a rubber stamp. Clearly it never worked out like that.

[ronaldo7]

I am just following Nicola Sturgeons lead!

We should only have another referendum if there is clear evidence the will of the people of Scotland has changed.

It has. We voted for manifestos with a referendum in them in 2021. Did you vote?

[James310]

I hope it does get turned down, that will only send the support for independence in one direction, I've always been one for the long game, keep Boris and the Tories in power a wee bit longer, get everyone even more scunnered

If they were clever they would call the SNP's bluff and let us have it as i genuinely think it's the last time that they Unionists will have a chance in winning

Like it was turned down the previous 2 times before? Did we see a surge in support for Independence? No.

I agree if I was SNP I would want Boris to hang on as long as possible.

[ronaldo7]

Thanks, you make my point wonderfully for me there, it was called when support for No was high and in theory the referendum was supposed to be a rubber stamp. Clearly it never worked out like that.

The trouble with that argument is that the UK Gov didn't ask for the referendum.

You're drowning.

[James310]

The trouble with that argument is that the UK Gov didn't ask for the referendum.

You're drowning.

Not sure what difference that makes.

Maybe this is a great strategy and with no referendum next year the SNP somehow beat their record result from 2015 and get just over 50%, then maybe a referendum will be more likely. A good few years to wait then.

[Ozyhibby]

Referendums are not that rare. Think there has been about 8 or 9 in my lifetime. There has been about 4 in the last 20 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

It makes a difference because the party who only had 28% support were prepared to make the argument, following an election where they had in their manifesto a promise to hold a referendum. The same thing happened in 2021, but we now have 50% support for independence.

What's changed?

[ronaldo7]

It has. We voted for manifestos with a referendum in them in 2021. Did you vote?

Can you answer the question please, James.

[lucky]

Without a legal referendum then independence won’t be happening. To try and use the U.K. General election as a de facto one is ridiculous. How can you have a single issue GE manifesto with no way of carrying it out? I’m a strong believer that the power to hold a referendum lies with the people of Scotland and the only way we can realistically we can do that is through the Scottish Parliament. If Holyrood passes legislation on it then we have a referendum. The people of Scotland should not need permission of the Westminster Government regardless of which party is control of it.

[degenerated]

Can you answer the question please, James.Check mate :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

What if me and other No voters are happy our democratic vote in 2014 is being defended? We all voted in 2014, my democratic vote is being defended that's all. Don't you respect democracy etc.

You don't have a monopoly on democracy. While we keep seeing support at 50/50 it will hold.

Democracy is fluid, it is not a 'once in a lifetime' thing otherwise we would be stuck in the 13th century!!!!

[Moulin Yarns]

Like it was turned down the previous 2 times before? Did we see a surge in support for Independence? No.

I agree if I was SNP I would want Boris to hang on as long as possible.

Turned down 2 times before. You are the one that keeps telling us that it's not been asked for, you flip flop more than Ross! 😂

[He's here!]

So in your world of democracy we should just keep the Tory government. After all they did win an election. Democracy isn't a one time event. Democracy moves in as world events move.

It can move in curious ways thanks to the first past the post system, which the SNP do spectacularly well from. I recall in 2015 they won 56 seats with less than 4% of the vote while UKIP won just a single seat with 12% of the vote (approx 4 million votes). Not that I was disappointed by UKIP's lack of seats but there's no question the system presents a distorted view of the SNP's popularity among Scottish voters, a narrow majority of whom vote for pro-union parties.

As others have said, though, the longer Boris johnson refuses to face reality the better for the SNP.

[James310]

Can you answer the question please, James.

No need to be so aggressive? I was at the shops FFS!

I voted to protect my democratic vote in 2014.

There is zero clear evidence the will of the people of Scotland has changed. Let's see what the next General Election brings, if the SNP get 50% + then maybe it's game on as people will according to the SNP only be voting on a single issue while last time Nicola Sturgeon was clear a vote for her was not a vote for Indy, next time it will be solely a vote for Indy.

[grunt]

Delighted my democratic vote and that of the 2M in 2014 who voted No is being defended while there is no clear evidence the will of the people of Scotland has changed. It was voluntary a mere 8 years ago.I've changed. I made a huge mistake in 2014 and I want the chance to put that right. This UK Government is a criminal enterprise.

[HNA2]

A friendly warning to all. This thread is probably going to take off in the next year or so but please remember we dont allow personal insults and harassment. This thread is for debate and opinions and as usual we would ask it to stay respectful regardless of opinion.

[Hibernian Verse]

No need to be so aggressive? I was at the shops FFS!

I voted to protect my democratic vote in 2014.

There is zero clear evidence the will of the people of Scotland has changed. Let's see what the next General Election brings, if the SNP get 50% + then maybe it's game on as people will according to the SNP only be voting on a single issue while last time Nicola Sturgeon was clear a vote for her was not a vote for Indy, next time it will be solely a vote for Indy.

See when you say there is zero clear evidence the will of the people of Scotland has changed since 2014;

- In 2015, the SNP went from 6 seats at Westminster to 56
- In 2016 the SNP gained an additional 1.1% of the constituency vote in the Scottish Parliament their best ever
- In 2017 the SNP became the largest party in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee & Aberdeen at local level.

That was just in the 3 years following 2014.

Just this year in the local elections the SNP (with a clear manifesto of independence) won a record number of councillors.

I think your point is fair on the next GE, but you should accept that there is some clear evidence in Yes' favour.

[ronaldo7]

No need to be so aggressive? I was at the shops FFS!

I voted to protect my democratic vote in 2014.

There is zero clear evidence the will of the people of Scotland has changed. Let's see what the next General Election brings, if the SNP get 50% + then maybe it's game on as people will according to the SNP only be voting on a single issue while last time Nicola Sturgeon was clear a vote for her was not a vote for Indy, next time it will be solely a vote for Indy.

I thought I was being respectful by saying please as well. 😆

Hope this is not too aggressive for you.

You voted in 2021 where the SNP and greens explicitly said they'd have a referendum. The Tories and Labour explicitly said a vote for them was a vote to stop a referendum.

You lost.

Time to respect democracy.

[WeeRussell]

We did choose. My democracy is being defended at the moment. Not a view you agree with for sure, but a valid view to take if you were on the other side?

It has changed lots of things except the most important one, support for Independence.

Isn’t the best way of finding out if the will of the Scottish people has changed to ask them… as in have a referendum in a democratic way?

And if you’re so sure it hasn’t changed why are you so terrified of having a referendum, and how will your democracy not be defended?

Just vote, let everyone else vote, and accept the result like we all had to do in 2014?

[grunt]

Isn’t the best way of finding out if the will of the Scottish people has changed to ask them… as in have a referendum in a democratic way?

And if you’re so sure it hasn’t changed why are you so terrified of having a referendum, and how will your democracy not be defended?

Just vote, let everyone else vote, and accept the result like we all had to do in 2014?You don't understand. Democracy stops as soon as they get the result they want, cf Brexit. No going back.

[KWJ]

It can move in curious ways thanks to the first past the post system, which the SNP do spectacularly well from. I recall in 2015 they won 56 seats with less than 4% of the vote while UKIP won just a single seat with 12% of the vote (approx 4 million votes). Not that I was disappointed by UKIP's lack of seats but there's no question the system presents a distorted view of the SNP's popularity among Scottish voters, a narrow majority of whom vote for pro-union parties.

As others have said, though, the longer Boris johnson refuses to face reality the better for the SNP.

That's one way to put it. Another is that SNP were voted for on 50% of the cast ballots where they listed while UKIP received 12-13% of their available votes.

In 2015, a narrow majority of voters in Scotland voted solely for the SNP over all unionist parties combined.

[James310]

I thought I was being respectful by saying please as well. 😆

Hope this is not too aggressive for you.

You voted in 2021 where the SNP and greens explicitly said they'd have a referendum. The Tories and Labour explicitly said a vote for them was a vote to stop a referendum.

You lost.

Time to respect democracy.

I was away for like 30 mins and you name me demanding an answer? What's that all about?

I know I keep giving you answers you don't like again and again but I am not going to repeat myself over and over, especially when if I can't go to the shops for 30 mins.

Let's see what happens, I am probably more confident than ever before we won't be seeing Independence in next 5 to 10 years. Obviously things change so let's see what happens.

[weecounty hibby]

I was away for like 30 mins and you name me demanding an answer? What's that all about?

I know I keep giving you answers you don't like again and again but I am not going to repeat myself over and over, especially when if I can't go to the shops for 30 mins.

Let's see what happens, I am probably more confident than ever before we won't be seeing Independence in next 5 to 10 years. Obviously things change so let's see what happens.
You are happy to see Scotland right to decide in what many see as the most important matter in domestic politics at the moment denied? Can I ask you what would England's route to self determination be and would you support them in it if it came to be an issue?

[WhileTheChief..]

We were told that a vote for the SNP in the last general election was nothing to do with Indy.

[weecounty hibby]

We were told that a vote for the SNP in the last general election was nothing to do with Indy.

You're wrong. It was in the manifesto to hold a new referendum in the first half of this parliament. It was also what Labour, Tories and Lib Dems campaigned on, a vote for them was a vote to stop indyref2. SNP won, Unionist parties lost. Democracy in action. SNP follow through in their manifesto okedge and unionists throw toys out the pram and try everything, and I mean everything, to block the referendum. Democracy being blocked

[degenerated]

We were told that a vote for the SNP in the last general election was nothing to do with Indy.It was literally the first key pledge in the manifesto26001

[WeeRussell]

I was away for like 30 mins and you name me demanding an answer? What's that all about?

I know I keep giving you answers you don't like again and again but I am not going to repeat myself over and over, especially when if I can't go to the shops for 30 mins.

Let's see what happens, I am probably more confident than ever before we won't be seeing Independence in next 5 to 10 years. Obviously things change so let's see what happens.

I can’t speak for Ronaldo but it may have been very innocent in that you responded to other posts (including one of his) since he first asked the question. Maybe he genuinely thought you had missed it or ignored it, as opposed to just being busy at the shops or whatever else.

As I say I can’t be sure but just a thought.

[WhileTheChief..]

They we’re on the news every day telling us to vote for all sorts of reasons. They clearly said a vote for the snp was not a vote for Indy.

[degenerated]

They we’re on the news every day telling us to vote for all sorts of reasons. They clearly said a vote for the snp was not a vote for Indy.They clearly put it in their manifesto. And won a landslide on it.

[WeeRussell]

They we’re on the news every day telling us to vote for all sorts of reasons. They clearly said a vote for the snp was not a vote for Indy.

Even if true (be interested to see some examples if it happened every day), that’s not quite “nothing to do with Indy.”

I doubt many voters were ticking the SNP box thinking this lot will keep us tied to the Union and tory rule for the foreseeable.

[WhileTheChief..]

Even if true (be interested to see some examples if it happened every day), that’s not quite “nothing to do with Indy.”

I doubt many voters were ticking the SNP box thinking this lot will keep us tied to the Union and tory rule for the foreseeable.

True. But we were told to think about all the other things the SNP would do.

If the GE results had been different, and the SNP won less than half the available seats, would you then have said “ach well, we can’t have a referendum now”?

The answer is no. You’d still be calling for another vote.

[JeMeSouviens]

True. But we were told to think about all the other things the SNP would do.

If the GE results had been different, and the SNP won less than half the available seats, would you then have said “ach well, we can’t have a referendum now”?

The answer is no. You’d still be calling for another vote.

Are you talking about the 2019 UK GE or 2021 Scottish GE?

Scotgov's referendum mandate stems from the latter where the SNP and Greens both had unconditional pledges for an indyref in their manifestos and between them won a majority in Holyrood.

[degenerated]

Are you talking about the 2019 UK GE or 2021 Scottish GE?

Scotgov's referendum mandate stems from the latter where the SNP and Greens both had unconditional pledges for an indyref in their manifestos and between them won a majority in Holyrood.The SNP one was in both, the 2019 mandate was shelved because of Covid.

[WeeRussell]

True. But we were told to think about all the other things the SNP would do.

If the GE results had been different, and the SNP won less than half the available seats, would you then have said “ach well, we can’t have a referendum now”?

The answer is no. You’d still be calling for another vote.

Of course we were! I would hope there would be more than just a pledge for another referendum from a party that are seeking my vote to govern our country.

Correct, I would still want a vote for independence regardless. I’m a YES voter, a Scotsman who was lied to about brexit among other things, and I despise the tory party. That’s on me though.. not the SNP. I’d have wanted it but I very much doubt we’d be talking about having it given the stance of the other parties.

There is also a number (greater than ever I would argue) of people that don’t like or vote for the SNP but would now vote independence. So, again, I agree that voting for the SNP isn’t a literal vote for independence (everyone knows that) but it’s a clear vote for the one party that intends to give us another referendum within their manifesto.

[ronaldo7]

I was away for like 30 mins and you name me demanding an answer? What's that all about?

I know I keep giving you answers you don't like again and again but I am not going to repeat myself over and over, especially when if I can't go to the shops for 30 mins.

Let's see what happens, I am probably more confident than ever before we won't be seeing Independence in next 5 to 10 years. Obviously things change so let's see what happens.

You responded to one of my posts after the one where I asked the question.

I thought you'd missed it and asked you...very politely, to answer my post.

It happens here all the time, don't take it personally.

Some people even start new threads because they can't get answers to their questions.

I'll leave it there for now.

Thanks for your answer.

[DaveF]

Who told you this?

James310.

What do I win (apart from being reported to the Admins 🙂)

[Hibernian Verse]

True. But we were told to think about all the other things the SNP would do.

If the GE results had been different, and the SNP won less than half the available seats, would you then have said “ach well, we can’t have a referendum now”?

The answer is no. You’d still be calling for another vote.

But that didn't happen...

[Just Alf]

They we’re on the news every day telling us to vote for all sorts of reasons. They clearly said a vote for the snp was not a vote for Indy.And to be fair, the vote was for a referendum not indy... the vote in a referendum would be for indy.

[WhileTheChief..]

But that didn't happen...
:confused:

[SteveHFC]

Boris rejects section 30 order.

https://twitter.com/bbcphilipsim/status/1544722471047274498?s=21&t=yhAzFlSBdFK95SlP5lL0Hw

[lapsedhibee]

I'm a Democrat.

I lost the vote in 2014, but it didn't stop me voting in the last 8 elections since then.

That's more than a vote every year, which is absolutely ridiculous. You should only be allowed to vote once in a generation.

[cabbageandribs1875]

no idea if any truth in this but...


https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/291659734_2671362452995939_5776910958899527377_n.j pg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=vahd1nUU5qIAX9HX9x5&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-TF9OPw4kJbEKkToLQ9183Nkccb5LYpC3JJ008KKRt6w&oe=62C9E1F6


i just wish the little coke-snorting weasel Gove would do as the court has instructed him to do

[James310]

no idea if any truth in this but...


https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/291659734_2671362452995939_5776910958899527377_n.j pg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=vahd1nUU5qIAX9HX9x5&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-TF9OPw4kJbEKkToLQ9183Nkccb5LYpC3JJ008KKRt6w&oe=62C9E1F6


i just wish the little coke-snorting weasel Gove would do as the court has instructed him to do

If it's hidden then how did he see it?

And 72%, huge if true.

And the 1822? Maybe he means the 1922?

[CropleyWasGod]

If it's hidden then how did he see it?

And 72%, huge if true.

He didn't claim to have seen it.

[Ozyhibby]

If it's hidden then how did he see it?

And 72%, huge if true.

No way it’s true. If it is then it will have been some sort of non-standard poll.
It’s possible that it asked what people identify as rather than how they would vote? Who knows? It likely doesn’t exist anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

He didn't claim to have seen it.

Oh ok, but 72% though. All these other polls must be getting manipulated then, massive news.

Weird at the last Scottish election the vote share was nowhere near that.

[James310]

No way it’s true. If it is then it will have been some sort of non-standard poll.
It’s possible that it asked what people identify as rather than how they would vote? Who knows? It likely doesn’t exist anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aww, I was really worried and everything.

[Callum_62]

Elections and referendums are obviously different. We regularly have elections, we very rarely have Referendums. Referendums should be used when it is clear the will of the people has changed, almost like a rubber stamp. We have seen the problems it causes when they are not used in this way.Why do we need a referendum only when there is a clear winner?

What's the point on a referendum if you only have one when the side you (happen to not support) gets to a mythical made up percentage figure of support?

It shouod be clear that if the government Scotland chose want one, we get one

It should never be about 'permission' or such utter nonsense we have in our archaic union


Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[James310]

Why do we need a referendum only when there is a clear winner?

What's the point on a referendum if you only have one when the side you (happen to not support) gets to a mythical made up percentage figure of support?



Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

I think I said why didn't I? So they are used to officially rubber stamp what has become the will of the people. Same answer to the second question, because at say 6O% it's clear the country feels a certain way and the referendum confirms it. Obviously it won't always work out like that.

[grunt]

Is there anyone out there watching the circus unfold at Number 10 tonight who doesn't think it's time for Scottish independence?

[The Harp Awakes]

no idea if any truth in this but...


https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/291659734_2671362452995939_5776910958899527377_n.j pg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=vahd1nUU5qIAX9HX9x5&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-TF9OPw4kJbEKkToLQ9183Nkccb5LYpC3JJ008KKRt6w&oe=62C9E1F6


i just wish the little coke-snorting weasel Gove would do as the court has instructed him to do

I think the only way Scotland won't become independent in the next 5 years is if somehow indyref2 doesn't happen.

The momentum of a positive v negative campaign will increase Yes support against a backdrop of Tory,/Unionist disintegration. The starting point of the campaign will be 50%/50% this time not 28%/72%.

[Steven79]

no idea if any truth in this but...


https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/291659734_2671362452995939_5776910958899527377_n.j pg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=vahd1nUU5qIAX9HX9x5&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-TF9OPw4kJbEKkToLQ9183Nkccb5LYpC3JJ008KKRt6w&oe=62C9E1F6


i just wish the little coke-snorting weasel Gove would do as the court has instructed him to doThis post from John was from a few years ago but seems to have resurfaced over the past few days.

I spoke to him at the time and claimed it was 100% accurate.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[Jack]

If the torys change their own rules on Monday, or anytime soon, to jettison BJ they'll have a bloody cheek mentioning once in a generation anytime in the next year or so.

[weecounty hibby]

If the torys change their own rules on Monday, or anytime soon, to jettison BJ they'll have a bloody cheek mentioning once in a generation anytime in the next year or so.
What you are completely missing the point on is that they 100% believe that they are better than us uppity jocks and 100% believe that they are entitled to do whatever they want. And in the words of Alistair Jack, we just need to suck it up.
I can't for the life of me understand why people in Scotland look at this circus, and the clowns in it and think yeah, we are better being shackled to that. And I include Labout in that too. They feel just as entitled as the Tories to tell Scotland what we can and can't do

[LewysGot2]

This post from John was from a few years ago but seems to have resurfaced over the past few days.

I spoke to him at the time and claimed it was 100% accurate.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

Pardon the ignorance but who is this person?

[Moulin Yarns]

Interesting thread on twitter

https://twitter.com/everywoman61/status/1542453901986865157?t=uK4pQKEur9XrV9yh2FuOrg&s=19



Not going repeat again, Last week I forced HANSARD to reinstate their U.K. minutes that agreed the people in Scotland are SOVEREIGN & have a #ClaimOfRight in a written minute that was purposely deleted. Lord Advocate or Supreme Court can’t say sovereignty only exists Westminster

[Kato]

Interesting thread on twitter

https://twitter.com/everywoman61/status/1542453901986865157?t=uK4pQKEur9XrV9yh2FuOrg&s=19



Not going repeat again, Last week I forced HANSARD to reinstate their U.K. minutes that agreed the people in Scotland are SOVEREIGN & have a #ClaimOfRight in a written minute that was purposely deleted. Lord Advocate or Supreme Court can’t say sovereignty only exists WestminsterCreepy

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[He's here!]

This doesn't bother me, infact all this chat about servility and bowing down to our masters etc is exactly the thing that would put off the very people you need to win over. Not me obviously but a floating voter being told they are not as Scottish as you or being insulted is the exact thing that will keep them No. Carry on.

I think you make a fair point regarding the uglier extremes of nationalism ie 'how, as a Scot, can you possibly not feel the same as me and want freed of the vile shackles of Westminster?'. The 'oppressed nation' hyperbole around independence can reach daft extremes and loses sight of those who look beyond the narrow factionalism of politics when it comes to wishing to remain part of the UK.

[Bristolhibby]

I think you make a fair point regarding the uglier extremes of nationalism ie 'how, as a Scot, can you possibly not feel the same as me and want freed of the vile shackles of Westminster?'. The 'oppressed nation' hyperbole around independence can reach daft extremes and loses sight of those who look beyond the narrow factionalism of politics when it comes to wishing to remain part of the UK.

As we have well seen (BREXIT) appealing to the emotion of people works well.

Including telling the population of a country that they can’t have a vote. Nothing gets people riled up more then being told they can’t have something that is theirs.

“Take back control”
“Make America Great AGAIN”.

J

[Keith_M]

I think you make a fair point regarding the uglier extremes of nationalism ie 'how, as a Scot, can you possibly not feel the same as me and want freed of the vile shackles of Westminster?'. The 'oppressed nation' hyperbole around independence can reach daft extremes and loses sight of those who look beyond the narrow factionalism of politics when it comes to wishing to remain part of the UK.


Your post from a couple of days back reminded me of when I was at an early stage German Language class in Munich.


The teacher went round the room and referred to each of us by our nationalities and, when she got round to me, she called me an "Engländer".

I very politely corrected her by saying I was "ein Schotte" (a Scotsman) or, if she if she wants to refer to me by the nationality on my Passport, she could call me "ein Brite" (a Brit).

She decided to argue about this, saying it was perfectly acceptable in German to refer to me as English

.... at which point my fellow classmates (French, Spanish, Romanian, etc) went into total meltdown on my behalf and had quite a heated argument with her.

:greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Your post from a couple of days back reminded me of when I was at an early stage German Language class in Munich.


The teacher went round the room and referred to each of us by our nationalities and, when she got round to me, she called me an "Engländer".

I very politely corrected her by saying I was "ein Schotte" (a Scotsman) or, if she if she wants to refer to me by the nationality on my Passport, she could call me "ein Brite" (a Brit).

She decided to argue about this, saying it was perfectly acceptable in German to refer to me as English

.... at which point my fellow classmates (French, Spanish, Romanian, etc) went into total meltdown on my behalf and had quite a heated argument with her.

:greengrin

Querulant