Scottish Independence

[Moulin Yarns]

Its straight up logic . Britain is struggling to leave a union its been in a few decades . What is going to make it so easy for Scotland to leave a union its been in for 3 centuries ?

the length of the unions are irrelevant, Scotland and England already have lots of different institutions which are particular to their nations. Legal system, education system for example. The re-establishment of the Scottish Stock Exchange is at an advanced stage. Unlike at Westminster, things have not stagnated north of the border (imaginary line on a map) and more jobs will be created to fill any gaps where they exist.

Could be you are not aware of the wider independence movement that hasn't sat still since 2014.

[JeMeSouviens]

Its straight up logic . Britain is struggling to leave a union its been in a few decades . What is going to make it so easy for Scotland to leave a union its been in for 3 centuries ?

This is nonsense targeted at the hard of thinking. Britain is struggling to leave the EU because it can't internally agree on how to leave, the trade offs to make, etc. Any time they have tortuously managed to drag themselves to a negotiating position, the actual negotiations have concluded pretty speedily. The struggles have **** all to do with the duration of membership.

[Bristolhibby]

This is nonsense targeted at the hard of thinking. Britain is struggling to leave the EU because it can't internally agree on how to leave, the trade offs to make, etc. Any time they have tortuously managed to drag themselves to a negotiating position, the actual negotiations have concluded pretty speedily. The struggles have **** all to do with the duration of membership.

I also think Scottish Labour and Tories will be brought into the negotiating tent post Independence vote. They would have much to gain setting their stall out for a post Independence Scottish political landscape.

J

[Just Alf]

I also think Scottish Labour and Tories will be brought into the negotiating tent post Independence vote. They would have much to gain setting their stall out for a post Independence Scottish political landscape.

JIndeed, done properly, many people have said that they'd vote for Labour in an independent Scotland (I personally think the SNP would get the 1st gig in a sort of honeymoon period though)


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[makaveli1875]

This is nonsense targeted at the hard of thinking. Britain is struggling to leave the EU because it can't internally agree on how to leave, the trade offs to make, etc. Any time they have tortuously managed to drag themselves to a negotiating position, the actual negotiations have concluded pretty speedily. The struggles have **** all to do with the duration of membership.

So like Mr Luna you've come on all Mr/Miss/Mrs smarty pants without answering the question . well if im hard of thinking explain to someone as thick as me how you think Scotland leaving the Uk will so much easier than Brexit

[Bristolhibby]

So like Mr Luna you've come on all Mr/Miss/Mrs smarty pants without answering the question . well if im hard of thinking explain to someone as thick as me how you think Scotland leaving the Uk will so much easier than Brexit

Having an agreed objective.
Recognising transition would be necessary.
Being inclusive of the whole political landscape (including Business representatives, cultural, etc)
Listening to experts.
Some serious strategic cards to be played - Oil, Debt, Trident.
Less of the “Johnny foreigner” attitude from the rUK.
Scotland has many institutions in place.
The learning from experience of Brexit to use.

Any reason why it would be more of a disaster than this BREXIT process? Quite frankly, I can’t see how anything could be as bad.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

So like Mr Luna you've come on all Mr/Miss/Mrs smarty pants without answering the question . well if im hard of thinking explain to someone as thick as me how you think Scotland leaving the Uk will so much easier than Brexit

I didn't say it necessarily would be. But whether we'd been in that arrangement for 20 years or 20 thousand would have **** all to do with it.

[makaveli1875]

Having an agreed objective.
Recognising transition would be necessary.
Being inclusive of the whole political landscape (including Business representatives, cultural, etc)
Listening to experts.
Some serious strategic cards to be played - Oil, Debt, Trident.
Less of the “Johnny foreigner” attitude from the rUK.
Scotland has many institutions in place.
The learning from experience of Brexit to use.

Any reason why it would be more of a disaster than this BREXIT process? Quite frankly, I can’t see how anything could be as bad.

J

We dont share a currency with the EU , we do with the UK
We dont share land borders with the EU , we do with the UK
Im sure the UK has strategic cards to play
Many of Scotlands institutions are tied to the UK
What is the agreed objective ? its the same as brexit roughly half the country want to go the other half want to stay

It wont be easy

[Jack]

We dont share a currency with the EU , we do with the UK
We dont share land borders with the EU , we do with the UK
Im sure the UK has strategic cards to play
Many of Scotlands institutions are tied to the UK
What is the agreed objective ? its the same as brexit roughly half the country want to go the other half want to stay

It wont be easy

This was gone over just a few pages ago.

Most of the Commonwealth countries are now independent from the UK. It's been done before. Some are even independent countries within the EU.

[Ozyhibby]

We dont share a currency with the EU , we do with the UK
We dont share land borders with the EU , we do with the UK
Im sure the UK has strategic cards to play
Many of Scotlands institutions are tied to the UK
What is the agreed objective ? its the same as brexit roughly half the country want to go the other half want to stay

It wont be easy

Nothing worthwhile is easy.


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[Moulin Yarns]

So like Mr Luna you've come on all Mr/Miss/Mrs smarty pants without answering the question . well if im hard of thinking explain to someone as thick as me how you think Scotland leaving the Uk will so much easier than Brexit

simply read my reply, not difficult.



the length of the unions are irrelevant, Scotland and England already have lots of different institutions which are particular to their nations. Legal system, education system for example. The re-establishment of the Scottish Stock Exchange is at an advanced stage. Unlike at Westminster, things have not stagnated north of the border (imaginary line on a map) and more jobs will be created to fill any gaps where they exist.

Could be you are not aware of the wider independence movement that hasn't sat still since 2014.


You have to remember that the objective from both sides in IndyRef 1 was that the 'divorce agreement' must not be to the detriment of either party (Scotland or rUK) If only someone at Westminster had thought of that before the Advisory Referendum on Brexit

[JeMeSouviens]

We dont share a currency with the EU , we do with the UK
We dont share land borders with the EU , we do with the UK
Im sure the UK has strategic cards to play
Many of Scotlands institutions are tied to the UK
What is the agreed objective ? its the same as brexit roughly half the country want to go the other half want to stay

It wont be easy

Ummm, Ireland? Can see why it slipped your mind, not been in the news much. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

There is, of course, already movement to allow a newly independent Scotland immediate access to the EU, just to make our (Scotland's) transition from part of the UK to an independent nation so much easier.



https://petiport.secure.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/en/petition/content/0701%252F2018/html/Petition-No-0701%252F2018-by-Martin-Keatings-%2528British%2529%252C-on-behalf-of-%25E2%2580%2598Forward-as-One--Scotland%25E2%2580%2599%252C-on-a-request-that-the-European-Parliament-votes-to-support-Scotland%25E2%2580%2599s-independent-membership-of-the-EU

[James310]

Ummm, Ireland? Can see why it slipped your mind, not been in the news much. :wink:

I think he meant Scotland.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think he meant Scotland.

If he's comparing the UK exit from EU with Scottish independence (which is kind of daft in the first place as a sovereign country within the EU is nothing like a region of the UK to start off with) then UK-EU has a land border in Ireland, Sco-UK has a land border too. There are shared land borders in both scenarios.

[makaveli1875]

Ummm, Ireland? Can see why it slipped your mind, not been in the news much. :wink:

Geography was never a strong point but I don't recall Scotland having a border with Ireland

[JeMeSouviens]

Geography was never a strong point but I don't recall Scotland having a border with Ireland

So Brexit is easier than Indy because Scotland has a land border with England but doesn't have one with Ireland? :confused:

You could be onto something here - have you told the Scottish Labour press office?

[Moulin Yarns]

Geography was never a strong point but I don't recall Scotland having a border with Ireland

A bit late to the party, see above for an explanation.

Anyways,




There is, of course, already movement to allow a newly independent Scotland immediate access to the EU, just to make our (Scotland's) transition from part of the UK to an independent nation so much easier.



https://petiport.secure.europarl.eur...ship-of-the-EU (https://petiport.secure.europarl.europa.eu/petitions/en/petition/content/0701%252F2018/html/Petition-No-0701%252F2018-by-Martin-Keatings-%2528British%2529%252C-on-behalf-of-%25E2%2580%2598Forward-as-One--Scotland%25E2%2580%2599%252C-on-a-request-that-the-European-Parliament-votes-to-support-Scotland%25E2%2580%2599s-independent-membership-of-the-EU)

[makaveli1875]

So Brexit is easier than Indy because Scotland has a land border with England but doesn't have one with Ireland? :confused:

You could be onto something here - have you told the Scottish Labour press office?

And you said I was hard of thinking. Wow

[JeMeSouviens]

And you said I was hard of thinking. Wow

Actually I rather assumed you were peddling an argument you knew was ***** because it suits your agenda.

[Moulin Yarns]

For the machiavellian one.

Why should negotiations with one nation (England) be more difficult than negotiations with 27 other nations?

Serious question by the way.

[James310]

For the machiavellian one.

Why should negotiations with one nation (England) be more difficult than negotiations with 27 other nations?

Serious question by the way.

Is England the rest of the UK now? Welsh and Northern Irish not count?

[Moulin Yarns]

Is England the rest of the UK now? Welsh and Northern Irish not count?

Think about the current government.

How much does Wales and Northern Ireland matter to them?

So yes, England.

[Jack]

Is England the rest of the UK now? Welsh and Northern Irish not count?

I'm struggling to find anyone in the Cabinet who isn't English. It's almost as if they don't trust the rest of us. So in answer to your question, probably not!

[Bristolhibby]

We dont share a currency with the EU , we do with the UK
We dont share land borders with the EU , we do with the UK
Im sure the UK has strategic cards to play
Many of Scotlands institutions are tied to the UK
What is the agreed objective ? its the same as brexit roughly half the country want to go the other half want to stay

It wont be easy

What is the rUKs strategic cards?

My point about objectives is obvious. Once Scotland votes for Independence, the objective will be manage that Independence process.
The Government cannot even agree what Brexit is or get a withdraw bill agreed.

To quote the EU, “Just tell us what you want”.

J

[James310]

Think about the current government.

How much does Wales and Northern Ireland matter to them?

So yes, England.

Well clearly Northern Ireland matter very much, have we not seen that?

[James310]

I'm struggling to find anyone in the Cabinet who isn't English. It's almost as if they don't trust the rest of us. So in answer to your question, probably not!

They are MPs who represent their constituency and the people in them, be that England, Wales or Northern Ireland. Some MPs happen to have a position in Government in a department such as Health or Defence. I am not sure how saying all the cabinet are English has any relevance and somehow turns it into a English thing.

[JeMeSouviens]

Well clearly Northern Ireland matter very much, have we not seen that?

NI matters because the EU rowed in behind Ireland in upholding the GFA, an international treaty.

[Bristolhibby]

They are MPs who represent their constituency and the people in them, be that England, Wales or Northern Ireland. Some MPs happen to have a position in Government in a department such as Health or Defence. I am not sure how saying all the cabinet are English has any relevance and somehow turns it into a English thing.

Genuine question. Are any of the Scottish Tory MPs in the cabinet? Bar the Scottish Secretary.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

They are MPs who represent their constituency and the people in them, be that England, Wales or Northern Ireland. Some MPs happen to have a position in Government in a department such as Health or Defence. I am not sure how saying all the cabinet are English has any relevance and somehow turns it into a English thing.

Because of devolution and EVEL, the only UK cabinet member representing a Scottish constituency will only ever be the Secretary of State for Scotland.

[Bristolhibby]

Because of devolution and EVEL, the only UK cabinet member representing a Scottish constituency will only ever be the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Not true. EVEL does not affect, Defence Secretary, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary, Home Secetary, Works and Pensions Secretary, etc.

J

[James310]

Genuine question. Are any of the Scottish Tory MPs in the cabinet? Bar the Scottish Secretary.

J

I don't see why that matters - 2 of the previous 3 Prime ministers were Scottish.

[James310]

So by dismissing Wales and Northern Ireland as not very important are you not guilty of doing exactly what you complain England do to Scotland?

[JeMeSouviens]

So by dismissing Wales and Northern Ireland as not very important are you not guilty of doing exactly what you complain England do to Scotland?

Can only speak for myself, but just as Scotland has been ignored through Brexit, I think it's a safe assumption that Wales/NI will be ignored post indyref.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm struggling to find anyone in the Cabinet who isn't English. It's almost as if they don't trust the rest of us. So in answer to your question, probably not!

Gove???

[Bristolhibby]

Gove???

Liam Fox.

But I get the question. An MP from a Scottish constituency.

J

[Smartie]

Gove???

If he hasn't been disowned by Scotland yet, I'm relinquishing all links to Scotland myself now.

[Steven79]

I'm certain to vote yes. Fundamentally, decisions should be made as close to the people by people they affect as possible. There's
nothing nationalistic to it - I see it as a simple fact. I think both campaigns have been pretty dismal, I think the debate in the media is tilted an biased. I find some of the arguments totally spurious. I suspect it will be a no vote but I think more than enough people will vote yes as to keep it on the agenda. Then lets see what 4 years of Boris in number 10 and then a jingoistic In/Out EU Referendum does to those whose pencils waivered before crossing 'No'.

Other than that, Miliband is desperately unconvincing as opposition leader that he makes Cameron look good. And who are the LibDems?

What are the lottery numbers this week? Swap May for Boris and you are almost spot on.

[Ozyhibby]

What is the rUKs strategic cards?

My point about objectives is obvious. Once Scotland votes for Independence, the objective will be manage that Independence process.
The Government cannot even agree what Brexit is or get a withdraw bill agreed.

To quote the EU, “Just tell us what you want”.

J

Scottish independence and Brexit are very different. There will be no time pressures that can be imposed by either side. There will be lots of work to be done and saying it would be easy is a nonsense but separation can be done in conjunction with sorting out the assets and liabilities of each party.
So long as we can keep the uk in the CU and SM then there will be no trade issues to sort out.
Currency question needs sorted (probably a Scottish pound) but everything else is doable with the right attitude.


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[makaveli1875]

Scottish independence and Brexit are very different. There will be no time pressures that can be imposed by either side. There will be lots of work to be done and saying it would be easy is a nonsense but separation can be done in conjunction with sorting out the assets and liabilities of each party.
So long as we can keep the uk in the CU and SM then there will be no trade issues to sort out.
Currency question needs sorted (probably a Scottish pound) but everything else is doable with the right attitude.


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If independence happens and Scotland manages to join the EU surely the easiest most sensible currency option would be to use the Euro .

[JeMeSouviens]

If independence happens and Scotland manages to join the EU surely the easiest most sensible currency option would be to use the Euro .

The Eurozone membership requires 2 years with a central bank and your own currency before adopting the Euro. We could aim for it in the medium term but I think the Euro has become politically toxic even though it isn't necessarily economically toxic provided you are comfortable you don't have the option to resort to devaluation.

[JeMeSouviens]

Scottish independence and Brexit are very different. There will be no time pressures that can be imposed by either side. There will be lots of work to be done and saying it would be easy is a nonsense but separation can be done in conjunction with sorting out the assets and liabilities of each party.
So long as we can keep the uk in the CU and SM then there will be no trade issues to sort out.
Currency question needs sorted (probably a Scottish pound) but everything else is doable with the right attitude.


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:agree: Lots of detailed work that wouldn't necessarily be contentious once the key issues of negotiation are settled. Also agree that rUK in the CU/SM makes things way more comfortable.

[JeMeSouviens]

A couple of interesting (if slightly weird in the case of the first one) articles from the Anglo commentariat of the Graun*:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/29/scottish-independence-nicola-sturgeon-snp-united-kingdom

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/28/england-mess-scotland-splitting-away



* good read btw :wink:

[Just Alf]

A couple of interesting (if slightly weird in the case of the first one) articles from the Anglo commentariat of the Graun*:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/29/scottish-independence-nicola-sturgeon-snp-united-kingdom

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/28/england-mess-scotland-splitting-away



* good read btw :wink:In the 1st one he makes an interesting comment re the Barnett formula, if the SNP were to renounce it and move to, in simple terms "our tax proceeds" (if I read it right) that would open a whole can of worms. Eg for accounting purposes would the sea border move back down to Berwick (from Perth/Dundee).



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[Moulin Yarns]

Interesting figures from Scottish business


http://www.businessforscotland.com/independent-scotland-will-be-an-international-exporting-powerhouse/


Is it any wonder that English politicians are so desperate to hold on to the Scottish economy

[Callum_62]

Interesting figures from Scottish business


http://www.businessforscotland.com/independent-scotland-will-be-an-international-exporting-powerhouse/

Yeah but with our new chocolate money all that surplus will simply melt away


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[Moulin Yarns]

Yeah but with our new chocolate money all that surplus will simply melt away


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So long as it's a minimum 85% cocoa 😉

[James310]

Interesting figures from Scottish business


http://www.businessforscotland.com/independent-scotland-will-be-an-international-exporting-powerhouse/


Is it any wonder that English politicians are so desperate to hold on to the Scottish economy

Shame for you it's not true.

https://theferret.scot/scotland-uk-country-export-import/


Why don't you go along to one of Business for Scotlands courses, they look really exciting.

http://www.businessforscotland.com/independence-ambassadors/

How would you like to rapidly increase your ability to win support for Scottish independence?

Would you want to develop the skills, knowledge, answers and techniques you need to convert as many people as possible to the cause of independence and then get the support you need to convert more?

Do you find it frustrating when you win arguments but don’t win votes?

Do you spend time on social media and wonder how effective you have been at convincing people that Scotland should be an independent nation?

😂

Yes, there really is a course for this. Only £10,000 a day plus VAT. Payable only in new ScotCurr, at a exchange rate yet to be decided.

[Moulin Yarns]

Shame for you it's not true.

https://theferret.scot/scotland-uk-country-export-import/


Why don't you go along to one of Business for Scotlands courses, they look really exciting.

http://www.businessforscotland.com/independence-ambassadors/

How would you like to rapidly increase your ability to win support for Scottish independence?

Would you want to develop the skills, knowledge, answers and techniques you need to convert as many people as possible to the cause of independence and then get the support you need to convert more?

Do you find it frustrating when you win arguments but don’t win votes?

Do you spend time on social media and wonder how effective you have been at convincing people that Scotland should be an independent nation?

😂

Yes, there really is a course for this. Only £10,000 a day plus VAT. Payable only in new ScotCurr, at a exchange rate yet to be decided.

Pity your ferret link is 2018 while the BfS is yesterday so more reliable. It includes oil and gas which the ferret excluded.


Selective quotes from the BfS site doesn't do you any favours, the training would cost £75 + vat, a training event costs a grand so maybe you should check the fact first or even just read before jumping to conclusions.


It appears that you are stalking me as you reply almost immediately. Right, I'm away campaigning for the EU election.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Shame for you it's not true.

https://theferret.scot/scotland-uk-country-export-import/


Why don't you go along to one of Business for Scotlands courses, they look really exciting.

http://www.businessforscotland.com/independence-ambassadors/

How would you like to rapidly increase your ability to win support for Scottish independence?

Would you want to develop the skills, knowledge, answers and techniques you need to convert as many people as possible to the cause of independence and then get the support you need to convert more?

Do you find it frustrating when you win arguments but don’t win votes?

Do you spend time on social media and wonder how effective you have been at convincing people that Scotland should be an independent nation?

😂

Yes, there really is a course for this. Only £10,000 a day plus VAT. Payable only in new ScotCurr, at a exchange rate yet to be decided.

Do you have any other outlook other than Scotland bad ?
It's such a shame that you have such a negative attitude to our wonderful country.

[Moulin Yarns]

Do you have any other outlook other than Scotland bad ?
It's such a shame that you have such a negative attitude to our wonderful country.

It's also telling that there is no post supporting the party that he votes for anywhere.

[James310]

Do you have any other outlook other than Scotland bad ?
It's such a shame that you have such a negative attitude to our wonderful country.

What are you talking about? Scotland is a great place. Its all the Nationalists who are on a downer about how bad everything is and all negative about pretty much everything. Remember I am not the one wanting massive and significant change, if your full of the positives about how great and wonderful Scotland is why are you wanting such massive change?

Are you sure you thought that one through?

[James310]

It's also telling that there is no post supporting the party that he votes for anywhere.

Telling your ignoring the points and back to playing the man not the ball.

[Callum_62]

What are you talking about? Scotland is a great place. Its all the Nationalists who are on a downer about how bad everything is and all negative about pretty much everything. Remember I am the one not wanting massive and significant change, if your full of the positives about how great Scotland is why are you wanting such massive change?

Are you sure you thought that one through?

Great or not we have diminished say over our own future


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[stoneyburn hibs]

I really did think it through,thanks.

[James310]

Great or not we have diminished say over our own future


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Did we not have that choice in 2014? We had the biggest choice you could ever imagine over our future only 5 years ago.

[Moulin Yarns]

Telling your ignoring the points and back to playing the man not the ball.

Why not post on a thread to defend your party of choice? Seems a reasonable observation.

[Fife-Hibee]

Did we not have that choice in 2014? We had the biggest choice you could ever imagine over our future only 5 years ago.

Wrong, it was 3 years ago.... but we never really had a choice.

[WeeRussell]

What are you talking about? Scotland is a great place. Its all the Nationalists who are on a downer about how bad everything is and all negative about pretty much everything. Remember I am not the one wanting massive and significant change, if your full of the positives about how great and wonderful Scotland is why are you wanting such massive change?

Are you sure you thought that one through?

I remember when some of your posts used to be mildly amusing.

[Bristolhibby]

What are you talking about? Scotland is a great place. Its all the Nationalists who are on a downer about how bad everything is and all negative about pretty much everything. Remember I am not the one wanting massive and significant change, if your full of the positives about how great and wonderful Scotland is why are you wanting such massive change?

Are you sure you thought that one through?

Don’t get it. Because a country is great it can’t be better?

The people of Scotland are the best people to decide Scotland’s future.

J

[Mibbes Aye]

Don’t get it. Because a country is great it can’t be better?

The people of Scotland are the best people to decide Scotland’s future.

J

They did :wink:

[Bristolhibby]

They did :wink:

And will do again.

J

[Fife-Hibee]

They did :wink:

So you agree that the Scottish people have a right to decide their own future? Or do they only get one go at it?

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

So you agree that the Scottish people have a right to decide their own future? Or do they only get one go at it?

If there was another vote and the population voted for Independence, would you be in favour of another vote in the future if the political mood swung behind trying for re-unification?

[Callum_62]

If there was another vote and the population voted for Independence, would you be in favour of another vote in the future if the political mood swung behind trying for re-unification?

If the govt of the day had a manifesto that pledged to revisit the question if “xx” happened then i dont see why not

I might be wrong but i dont think many countries have voted to to remove there independence


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[Callum_62]

For people who support the union - what would need to happen for you to waver?

Brexit has obviously dominated the landscape for the past 3 years and now looks possibly on course for a choice between no deal and no brexit

Ofcourse the govts own analysis paints a bleak picture on any form of brexit but particularly a no deal scenario - with huge question marks over supply of medicines, the irish border etc

Recent polls again are highlighting the massive political differences between Scotland and England....who seem to be heading even more to the right....while we seem to be moving back in some way to the SNP

So, what would make you consider us better off without being in the UK?

Would a Peoples vote with a huge scottish majority for no brexit but a uk vote for no deal do it?

If not, what?


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[makaveli1875]

For people who support the union - what would need to happen for you to waver?

Brexit has obviously dominated the landscape for the past 3 years and now looks possibly on course for a choice between no deal and no brexit

Ofcourse the govts own analysis paints a bleak picture on any form of brexit but particularly a no deal scenario - with huge question marks over supply of medicines, the irish border etc

Recent polls again are highlighting the massive political differences between Scotland and England....who seem to be heading even more to the right....while we seem to be moving back in some way to the SNP

So, what would make you consider us better off without being in the UK?

Would a Peoples vote with a huge scottish majority for no brexit but a uk vote for no deal do it?

If not, what?


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Jeremy Corbyn becoming PM would push me over the edge

[Fife-Hibee]

Jeremy Corbyn becoming PM would push me over the edge

Looking increasingly more likely.

Would Bojo, Gove, Mogg.... (the alternatives) be acceptable to you?

[Ozyhibby]

Looking increasingly more likely.

Would Bojo, Gove, Mogg.... (the alternatives) be acceptable to you?

Corbyn would be worse than those three. Johnson and Mogg would carry on with Austerity. Give is more balanced but still a dyed in the wool Tory. However the economy under those three Willie carry on and we would make do best we can.
Corbyn is a whole new thing. As soon as he starts the spending on nationalisations etc the economy will tank big time and we will all be a lot poorer including the very people Johnson and Mogg would hurt anyway. Corbyn thinks Venezuela is a model we should follow.



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[G B Young]

Jeremy Corbyn becoming PM would push me over the edge

Yep me too. However, I remain optimistic such a national catastrophe will never happen.

[Fife-Hibee]

Corbyn would be worse than those three. Johnson and Mogg would carry on with Austerity. Give is more balanced but still a dyed in the wool Tory. However the economy under those three Willie carry on and we would make do best we can.
Corbyn is a whole new thing. As soon as he starts the spending on nationalisations etc the economy will tank big time and we will all be a lot poorer including the very people Johnson and Mogg would hurt anyway. Corbyn thinks Venezuela is a model we should follow.



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I'm no fan of Labour or Corbyn but I can't agree with you there. Have you read the Labour Manifesto? The only nationalization that is referred to is the nationalization of the railway service. Which a strong majority across the UK appear to be in favour of?

Even if Corbyn wanted to go on some crazy communist rampage (which I don't believe he would), he would never wield the level of support in parliament to get his plans through. So it's all scare mongering anyway.

As for Venezuela. Anybody who believes their tanking economy is strictly down to socialism, hasn't been paying attention.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

The Venezuela guff is largely piped up by the right wing bottom feeders in the Tory Party who when asked about Conservative policies immediately start talking about what Jeremy Corbin is doing. Trumpesque deflection and slight of hand.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm no fan of Labour or Corbyn but I can't agree with you there. Have you read the Labour Manifesto? The only nationalization that is referred to is the nationalization of the railway service. Which a strong majority across the UK appear to be in favour of?

Even if Corbyn wanted to go on some crazy communist rampage (which I don't believe he would), he would never wield the level of support in parliament to get his plans through. So it's all scare mongering anyway.

As for Venezuela. Anybody who believes their tanking economy is strictly down to socialism, hasn't been paying attention.

There would probably be a majority among the British public to bring back hanging, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.



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[Sir David Gray]

Jeremy Corbyn becoming PM would push me over the edge

I'm honestly not sure how I would feel if the choice was an independent Scotland lead by the SNP or a continuation of Scotland inside the UK with Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister and others like Diane Abbott on the front bench.

God help us.

[Fife-Hibee]

There would probably be a majority among the British public to bring back hanging, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.



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All political ideas are "good ideas" if it panders to the majority. Even if you and I don't personally agree with them. But who do you think would be more likely to give the public a vote on hanging? Jacob Rees-Mogg or Jeremy Corbyn? :wink:

[Smartie]

All political ideas are "good ideas" if it panders to the majority. Even if you and I don't personally agree with them. But who do you think would be more likely to give the public a vote on hanging? Jacob Rees-Mogg or Jeremy Corbyn? :wink:

It depends on who you were planning to hang.

[Fife-Hibee]

It depends on who you were planning to hang.

The one who legalizes it will do. :cb

[Colr]

I might be wrong but i dont think many countries have voted to to remove there independence


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Hawaii?

[RyeSloan]

I'm no fan of Labour or Corbyn but I can't agree with you there. Have you read the Labour Manifesto? The only nationalization that is referred to is the nationalization of the railway service. Which a strong majority across the UK appear to be in favour of?

Is that the same Labour Manifesto that states the following?

Bring private rail companies back into public ownership as their franchises expire.

Regain control of energy supply networks through the alteration of operator license conditions, and transition to a publicly owned, decentralised energy system.

Replace our dysfunctional water system with a network of regional publicly-owned water companies.

Reverse the privatisation of Royal Mail at the earliest opportunity

[Fife-Hibee]

Is that the same Labour Manifesto that states the following?

Bring private rail companies back into public ownership as their franchises expire.

Regain control of energy supply networks through the alteration of operator license conditions, and transition to a publicly owned, decentralised energy system.

Replace our dysfunctional water system with a network of regional publicly-owned water companies.

Reverse the privatisation of Royal Mail at the earliest opportunity

Notice how all of these policies are to take things back to how they were pre-privatization? Would you say these services have improved in private hands?

I wouldn't consider any of these things particularly radical, considering they were once in the hands of public ownership.

[RyeSloan]

Notice how all of these policies are to take things back to how they were pre-privatization? Would you say these services have improved in private hands?

I wouldn't consider any of these things particularly radical, considering they were once in the hands of public ownership.

Radical or not wasn’t the question.

The question was if the policies came from the same manifesto you had asked another if they had read.

The same manifesto that you claimed only referred to railways with regards nationalisation.

[Fife-Hibee]

Radical or not wasn’t the question.

The question was if the policies came from the same manifesto you had asked another if they had read.

The same manifesto that you claimed only referred to railways with regards nationalisation.

A question that came about from the idea that Labour had some radical communist manifesto laid out.

[Ozyhibby]

Notice how all of these policies are to take things back to how they were pre-privatization? Would you say these services have improved in private hands?

I wouldn't consider any of these things particularly radical, considering they were once in the hands of public ownership.

And are they going to pay full market value to buy these assets or are they going to confiscate private property?


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[Fife-Hibee]

And are they going to pay full market value to buy these assets or are they going to confiscate private property?


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What will the full market value be if the services continue to fail people?

[RyeSloan]

A question that came about from the idea that Labour had some radical communist manifesto laid out.

Let’s try again.

Was the extract from the same manifesto that you stated only contained a single nationalisation proposal (railways)?

And was that the same manifesto you asked another poster if they had read?

[stokesmessiah]

Let’s try again.

Was the extract from the same manifesto that you stated only contained a single nationalisation proposal (railways)?

And was that the same manifesto you asked another poster if they had read?

I don't think you are getting an answer on that one !

[Ozyhibby]

Anyone watching Chernobyl on Sky Atlantic? It’s a great illistration of what happens when the state takes control of energy supply and dissent is not tolerated. I’m sure Jeremy is watching, looking for tips for when he gets control here.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Anyone watching Chernobyl on Sky Atlantic? It’s a great illistration of what happens when the state takes control of energy supply and dissent is not tolerated. I’m sure Jeremy is watching, looking for tips for when he gets control here.


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Deary me.

State control leads to nuclear meltdown? As opposed to the private profit-driven control that led to, erm, Three Mile Island and F-ukishima..

[Ozyhibby]

Deary me.

State control leads to nuclear meltdown? As opposed to the private profit-driven control that led to, erm, Three Mile Island and F-ukishima..

Accidents can happen in any system. It’s the reaction to those accidents that is different. A lot less people died at ***ushima than Chernobyl.



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[Smartie]

Accidents can happen in any system. It’s the reaction to those accidents that is different. A lot less people died at ***ushima than Chernobyl.



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F-ukishima was decades later, with advances in knowledge of safety procedures/ damage limitation and of course the learning experience from having had Chernobyl happen in the first place.

Not sure that the only factors that differentiate the 2 incidents are capitalism and communism.

And if I could get a bit tinfoil hat for a moment, is there a chance that this new Chernobyl programme could be anti-Russian propaganda, stoking the populism hungry public's desire for taking their frustrations out on an "other" and helping to get us all angry about the big bear that has been acting up a bit over in the East?

[Ozyhibby]

F-ukishima was decades later, with advances in knowledge of safety procedures/ damage limitation and of course the learning experience from having had Chernobyl happen in the first place.

Not sure that the only factors that differentiate the 2 incidents are capitalism and communism.

And if I could get a bit tinfoil hat for a moment, is there a chance that this new Chernobyl programme could be anti-Russian propaganda, stoking the populism hungry public's desire for taking their frustrations out on an "other" and helping to get us all angry about the big bear that has been acting up a bit over in the East?

On the last paragraph, it depends on if it’s accurate or not. So far the programme has depicted heroic acts of bravery as well as massive incompetence.
Not sure how accurate it all is but it’s great tv.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bustle.com/p/how-accurate-is-chernobyl-the-upcoming-hbo-miniseries-pays-so-much-attention-to-detail-17304704


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[jonty]

On the last paragraph, it depends on if it’s accurate or not. So far the programme has depicted heroic acts of bravery as well as massive incompetence.
Not sure how accurate it all is but it’s great tv.


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Well the accents certainly aren't, so i'll take it all with a pinch of salt.

[Ozyhibby]

Well the accents certainly aren't, so i'll take it all with a pinch of salt.

The accents were deliberately not meant to be Russian.


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[jonty]

The accents were deliberately not meant to be Russian.


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I was being sarcastic and should have used a smilie :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Latest Panelbase has Y 48 N 52 - a 3 year high in Indy support from Panelbase.

Things are definitely inching in the right direction. :aok:

[ronaldo7]

Latest Panelbase has Y 48 N 52 - a 3 year high in Indy support from Panelbase.

Things are definitely inching in the right direction. :aok:

16-17 year olds included?

[JeMeSouviens]

16-17 year olds included?

Yes, and if my arithmetic is right:

- 16-34 age group breaks 65-35 for Yes
- 35-54 age group is 53-47 for No
- 55+ is 64-36 for No

[Bangkok Hibby]

Yes, and if my arithmetic is right:

- 16-34 age group breaks 65-35 for Yes
- 35-54 age group is 53-47 for No
- 55+ is 64-36 for No

Surely evidence that oldies should be banned from voting :agree:

[Moulin Yarns]

Surely evidence that oldies should be banned from voting :agree:

oi!!!! I'm part of the 36

[ACLeith]

oi!!!! I'm part of the 36

So am I. And well past the 55 threshold!

[Bangkok Hibby]

A wee jest lads from an oldie who doesn't even have a vote. Just trying to lighten the mood :confused:

[ACLeith]

A wee jest lads from an oldie who doesn't even have a vote. Just trying to lighten the mood :confused:

And it was taken that way 👍
But it annoys me when SOME of my contemporaries seem scared to be bold even when they kind of sympathise

[Fife-Hibee]

oi!!!! I'm part of the 36


So am I. And well past the 55 threshold!

Then get yer pals doon by the home telt ffs!









:wink:

[NAE NOOKIE]

oi!!!! I'm part of the 36

Me too :greengrin

[ACLeith]

Then get yer pals doon by the home telt ffs!

:wink:

I would if I could remember who they were! Nurse!!

[HibernianJK]

I believe the polls underestimated the Yes vote quite a bit last time around. If the same happens again, it could be even closer than 48-52.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190529/a1f28902e8916ce009f7295b6d5d4007.jpg
How on earth do the Irish cope since going independent?


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[grunt]

Sajid Javid.

https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1133712135517822976?s=21

[stoneyburn hibs]

Sajid Javid.

https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1133712135517822976?s=21

Another arrogant Tory.

[lord bunberry]

Sajid Javid.

https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1133712135517822976?s=21
I think the Scottish government might go to the courts before they ask for an article 30 order. I wonder if constitutionally Westminster has the right to block a referendum.

[Callum_62]

Why should Westminster ever have the right to block any of the 'equal' nations in the union asking there own population to decide there future?

[Fife-Hibee]

I think the Scottish government might go to the courts before they ask for an article 30 order. I wonder if constitutionally Westminster has the right to block a referendum.

I can see the European courts stepping in at some point.

[Moulin Yarns]

I can see the European courts stepping in at some point.

Maybe use article 20 as the reason. The UK would be removing EU citizenship from Scottish residents.

[allmodcons]

Why should Westminster ever have the right to block any of the 'equal' nations in the union asking there own population to decide there future?

Because we're not equal nations. We are all part of the UK. For me, that is the difference between the political unions. In Europe we have a number of independent nation states interdependent on each other. That is not how the UK works. Scotland has, in the past, been referred to as an equal partner in the UK but that's just bull****.

If, for argument's sake, I own 85% of the shares in a business and the other 3 shareholders own 15% between them, there is no way they'd be calling the shots. I might tell them their input is important, I might even give them a wee project to work on (Devolution) but, ultimately, I'll be the one making all the big decisions.

[JeMeSouviens]

Because we're not equal nations. We are all part of the UK. For me, that is the difference between the political unions. In Europe we have a number of independent nation states interdependent on each other. That is not how the UK works. Scotland has, in the past, been referred to as an equal partner in the UK but that's just bull****.

If, for argument's sake, I own 85% of the shares in a business and the other 3 shareholders own 15% between them. There is no way they'd be calling the shots. I might tell them their input is important, I might even give them a wee project to work on (Devolution) but, ultimately, I'll be the one making all the big decisions.

:agree:

There is no such thing as a "partner in the UK". Scotland was completely subsumed into the UK in 1707. It's a unitary state.

[marinello59]

I think the Scottish government might go to the courts before they ask for an article 30 order. I wonder if constitutionally Westminster has the right to block a referendum.

I think Westminster does have the right to block a legally binding referundum unfortunately. Which is why Sturgeon is playing her cards carefully. (And in my opinion skilfully.) There is no concrete mention of timescale or what question would be asked yet, she is just slowly increasing the pressure on Westminster.
If the SNP go in to the next GE clearly stating that a vote for them means a vote for a referundum then a good showing will crank up the pressure ten fold. Today’s announcement may well be the start of the end game but Yes will only win by making good positive arguments. Every time somebody sneers at No voters for being too old, too stupid or too scared to vote Yes we lose votes. Secure a referundum and our fate is in our own hands. We do still have a lot of work to do though.

[lord bunberry]

I can see the European courts stepping in at some point.
Would they be able to if we’ve left the EU?

[lord bunberry]

I think Westminster does have the right to block a legally binding referundum unfortunately. Which is why Sturgeon is playing her cards carefully. (And in my opinion skilfully.) There is no concrete mention of timescale or what question would be asked yet, she is just slowly increasing the pressure on Westminster.
If the SNP go in to the next GE clearly stating that a vote for them means a vote for a referundum then a good showing will crank up the pressure ten fold. Today’s announcement may well be the start of the end game but Yes will only win by making good positive arguments. Every time somebody sneers at No voters for being too old, too stupid or too scared to vote Yes we lose votes. Secure a referundum and our fate is in our own hands. We do still have a lot of work to do though.
There seems to be a few people suggesting otherwise about whether they can block it.
I agree completely with your other points.

[Moulin Yarns]

Would they be able to if we’ve left the EU?

Timing is everything. The plan is to hold the referendum by the end of 2020, assuming we leave with the withdrawal agreement intact them that is within the transition period.

[lord bunberry]

Timing is everything. The plan is to hold the referendum by the end of 2020, assuming we leave with the withdrawal agreement intact them that is within the transition period.
So it becomes even more important we don’t leave without a deal then.

[JeMeSouviens]

There seems to be a few people suggesting otherwise about whether they can block it.
I agree completely with your other points.

The legal position on right to hold a ref is unclear but I think it's fairly clear the UK gov would not be under any legal obligation to respect the result without a s30 order. Given that the way to win an indyref is to convince those who would like to live in an independent Scotland but need reassurance that it's worth the risk/upheaval, then it seems to be a bit mad to press ahead without one. If Yes was at a steady 70% then maybe, but not at 48-49.

[Moulin Yarns]

There seems to be a few people suggesting otherwise about whether they can block it.
I agree completely with your other points.

As with the 2014 referendum Westminster has to use article 30 of the devolution act (I think) to temporarily transfer the legal ability to hold a referendum. Those saying it isn't necessary are, I think,being a bit hopeful that there is no need for the article 30. Some are saying things like the Scottish Parliament was never dissolved in 1707 and such like. Me, I would rather it was a watertight case for holding the referendum.


Edit: back to Article 20, as soon as Brexit is approved (I know, pigs are flying) the Scottish Government should appeal to the EU and the European Court of Justice regarding the removal of European citizenship from all Scottish citizens against their will and try to get a review to either halt Brexit or to offer a way to remain in the EU through a second referendum.

[lord bunberry]

The legal position on right to hold a ref is unclear but I think it's fairly clear the UK gov would not be under any legal obligation to respect the result without a s30 order. Given that the way to win an indyref is to convince those who would like to live in an independent Scotland but need reassurance that it's worth the risk/upheaval, then it seems to be a bit mad to press ahead without one. If Yes was at a steady 70% then maybe, but not at 48-49.


As with the 2014 referendum Westminster has to use article 30 of the devolution act (I think) to temporarily transfer the legal ability to hold a referendum. Those saying it isn't necessary are, I think,being a bit hopeful that there is no need for the article 30. Some are saying things like the Scottish Parliament was never dissolved in 1707 and such like. Me, I would rather it was a watertight case for holding the referendum.
Thanks.

[JeMeSouviens]

As with the 2014 referendum Westminster has to use article 30 of the devolution act (I think) to temporarily transfer the legal ability to hold a referendum. Those saying it isn't necessary are, I think,being a bit hopeful that there is no need for the article 30. Some are saying things like the Scottish Parliament was never dissolved in 1707 and such like. Me, I would rather it was a watertight case for holding the referendum.

Section 30 of the Scotland Act, 1998. It allows matters reserved to Westminster to be legislated for by Holyrood.

[Moulin Yarns]

Section 30 of the Scotland Act, 1998. It allows matters reserved to Westminster to be legislated for by Holyrood.

Thanks, couldn't remember of the top of my head. Let's face it there's little enough on the top of my head :wink:

[Fife-Hibee]

So to sum up the situation.

https://i.ibb.co/qyX8YM2/prisoners.jpg

[James310]

Another arrogant Tory.

Why is that arrogant? A recent poll found that constitutional matters was about number 7 in a list of priorities that the Scottish Government should be focusing on. Education was top.

[James310]

Timing is everything. The plan is to hold the referendum by the end of 2020, assuming we leave with the withdrawal agreement intact them that is within the transition period.

So a referendum is held late 2020 and its a Yes vote. So the Scottish Government will pass all the legislation and agree a deal with the UK before the 2021 Holyrood elections then? You think based on Brexit that's a realistic prospect?

If I was Sturgeon you hold a referendum at the start of the new Holyrood session and then you have a good 4 or 5 years to implement.

What if there is a Unionist majority in Holyrood in 2021, imagine trying to get through legislation in that environment.

Timing is everything but if she thinks she can hold it in 2020 and pass all legislation and do a deal in 12 to 18 months she is deluded.

[JeMeSouviens]

Nope, can't think of any reason anyone would think The Saj (https://uk.news.yahoo.com/sajid-javid-started-referring-third-person-cabinet-meetings-102622301.html) was at all arrogant. Mystifying. :dunno:

https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article12454018.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Sajid-Javid-stands-outside-the-Home-Office.jpg

[Callum_62]

So a referendum is held late 2020 and its a Yes vote. So the Scottish Government will pass all the legislation and agree a deal with the UK before the 2021 Holyrood elections then? You think based on Brexit that's a realistic prospect?

If I was Sturgeon you hold a referendum at the start of the new Holyrood session and then you have a good 4 or 5 years to implement.

What if there is a Unionist majority in Holyrood in 2021, imagine trying to get through legislation in that environment.

Timing is everything but if she thinks she can hold it in 2020 and pass all legislation and do a deal in 12 to 18 months she is deluded.Do you really think a unionist majority would be elected hot on the heels of a yes to breaking the union vote?

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[James310]

Do you really think a unionist majority would be elected hot on the heels of a yes to breaking the union vote?

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If it was a close vote 51/49 for example and the negotiations were not going well then yes it could.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I find it arrogant due to him saying it will be a no from Westminster, no and get on with governing Scotland.

It will happen, Westminster will need to suck it up.

Maybe your Tory party could get on with governing the UK, instead of this cluster**** they have us in right now.

[James310]

I find it arrogant due to him saying it will be a no from Westminster, no and get on with governing Scotland.

It will happen, Westminster will need to suck it up.

Maybe your Tory party could get on with governing the UK, instead of this cluster**** they have us in right now.

The people of Scotland are saying similar, get on with governing the county in Scotland. That's why constitutional matters were about 7th on the list of priorities and Health and Education were the top.

[Ozyhibby]

Why is that arrogant? A recent poll found that constitutional matters was about number 7 in a list of priorities that the Scottish Government should be focusing on. Education was top.

Which one of the 6 above should we only be doing?


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[James310]

Which one of the 6 above should we only be doing?


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Not sure what you mean? I accept the SNP will be driving a constitutional change agenda, but they were elected to run the country and that should be their priority, everything else should be secondary. They have it the other way round in my opinion.

[Fife-Hibee]

Not sure what you mean? I accept the SNP will be driving a constitutional change agenda, but they were elected to run the country and that should be their priority, everything else should be secondary. They have it the other way round in my opinion.

Something they're doing very well. Which is why they remain in government to your endless frustration. (:

[stoneyburn hibs]

Not sure what you mean? I accept the SNP will be driving a constitutional change agenda, but they were elected to run the country and that should be their priority, everything else should be secondary. They have it the other way round in my opinion.

12 years and counting the SNP have been in power, maybe the electorate know something you don't.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure what you mean? I accept the SNP will be driving a constitutional change agenda, but they were elected to run the country and that should be their priority, everything else should be secondary. They have it the other way round in my opinion.

As were the tories in Westminster, but they are spending all their time on constitutional matters such as Brexit and electing yet another party leader. What ever you say you can't deny that they are doing anything but run the 4 nations of the disunited Kingdoms.

[Ozyhibby]

Not sure what you mean? I accept the SNP will be driving a constitutional change agenda, but they were elected to run the country and that should be their priority, everything else should be secondary. They have it the other way round in my opinion.

They seem to be running the country just fine compared with other UK administrations?


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[JeMeSouviens]

12 years and counting the SNP have been in power, maybe the electorate know something you don't.

Even if you genuinely thought the SNP were failing on the "day job", would you trust any of the opposition to run a bath, let alone a government*?


* even a devolved, pretendy one.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Even if you genuinely thought the SNP were failing on the "day job", would you trust any of the opposition to run a bath, let alone a government*?


* even a devolved, pretendy one.

Erm....let me find a recent poll and I'll get back to you.

[James310]

Something they're doing very well. Which is why they remain in government to your endless frustration. (:

There are some voters who will vote SNP no matter what. I accept you will deny this, but some people would still vote SNP if they said they were closing schools and hospitals as they see the SNP as the Indy movement.

[Fife-Hibee]

There are some voters who will vote SNP no matter what. I accept you will deny this, but some people would still vote SNP if they said they were closing schools and hospitals as they see the SNP as the Indy movement.

Of course there are some people who will vote SNP no matter what. Just as there are people who will vote Tory no matter what, Labour no matter what, UKIP no matter what.... etc

But "some people" don't win elections. You need a huge number of people and most of those people will vote with their heads.

The tories have introduced the bedroom tax, child tax credit cuts, the rape clause amongst other austerity measures, but there are still people in Scotland who will vote for them, because "Rule, Britannia!" and "GSTQ".

[Jack]

Not sure what you mean? I accept the SNP will be driving a constitutional change agenda, but they were elected to run the country and that should be their priority, everything else should be secondary. They have it the other way round in my opinion.

They were elected on a manifesto which included issues around independence. Those that voted them into power will expect them to include that in their day job.

[heretoday]

Opportunistic move by Sturgeon. As if we weren't in enough turmoil, she wants to heap further disruption on us all.

[Fife-Hibee]

Opportunistic move by Sturgeon. As if we weren't in enough turmoil, she wants to heap further disruption on us all.

Opportunistic by the Scottish electorate you mean? Considering this was in the manifesto in which we voted for.

The only people shocked by this move are those who vote without knowing what they're voting for.

[JimBHibees]

Section 30 of the Scotland Act, 1998. It allows matters reserved to Westminster to be legislated for by Holyrood.

Would that not require agreement of both parliaments.

[JimBHibees]

Not sure what you mean? I accept the SNP will be driving a constitutional change agenda, but they were elected to run the country and that should be their priority, everything else should be secondary. They have it the other way round in my opinion.

I wish the ruling party down south would concentrate on running the country.

[Callum_62]

Opportunistic move by Sturgeon. As if we weren't in enough turmoil, she wants to heap further disruption on us all.One man's disruption is another man's salvation [emoji6]

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[James310]

I wish the ruling party down south would concentrate on running the country.

Agreed.

[ronaldo7]

The Oban march was well represented again with thousands of marchers. It's a pity that an old lady was refused a cup of tea in a chippy, as she tried to get out of the rain.

Her crime, she was wearing a saltire flag around her shoulders.

The owner of the chippy said he was quite entitled to ask her to leave as the licencing laws restrict the wearing of football colours(not actually true)

She was 79 FFS.

[Fife-Hibee]

The Oban march was well represented again with thousands of marchers. It's a pity that an old lady was refused a cup of tea in a chippy, as she tried to get out of the rain.

Her crime, she was wearing a saltire flag around her shoulders.

The owner of the chippy said he was quite entitled to ask her to leave as the licencing laws restrict the wearing of football colours(not actually true)

She was 79 FFS.

With any luck, their business is damaged to the point of shutting down. Either due to this, or the brexit the owners probably voted for.

Poor dear should have been given a free cup of tea for the effort she puts in for her country at her age.

[James310]

With any luck, their business is damaged to the point of shutting down. Either due to this, or the brexit the owners probably voted for.

Poor dear should have been given a free cup of tea for the effort she puts in for her country at her age.

Would you support painting a symbol on their windows so people recognise it as a Unionists business, people can then avoid it? Maybe paint Union Jack's on the windows then people will know what businesses to avoid, hopefully they go out of business and the staff lose their jobs and we increase the benefits payable to them all.

Joyous and Civic indeed.

[Fife-Hibee]

Would you support painting a symbol on their windows so people recognise it as a Unionists business, people can then avoid it? Maybe paint Union Jack's on the windows then people will know what businesses to avoid, hopefully they go out of business and the staff lose their jobs and we increase the benefits payable to them all.

Joyous and Civic indeed.

Don't need to. I've seen companies paint union jacks on their own windows. If they want to damage their business by limiting their customer base, then they deserve to fail as a business.

Only people who respect Scotland deserve to live in Scotland.

[marinello59]

Don't need to. I've seen companies paint union jacks on their own windows. If they want to damage their business by limiting their customer base, then they deserve to fail as a business.

Only people who respect Scotland deserve to live in Scotland.

Does displaying a Union Jack count as disrespecting Scotland?

[Hibrandenburg]

Would you support painting a symbol on their windows so people recognise it as a Unionists business, people can then avoid it? Maybe paint Union Jack's on the windows then people will know what businesses to avoid, hopefully they go out of business and the staff lose their jobs and we increase the benefits payable to them all.

Joyous and Civic indeed.

That's an outrageous parallel to draw, especially considering it was the owner that refused to serve the lady. If his business is boycotted then he has no one to blame but himself. Trying to suggest that anyone on here is advocating some kind of Scottish pogrom is a new low, even for your standards.

[Hibrandenburg]

Don't need to. I've seen companies paint union jacks on their own windows. If they want to damage their business by limiting their customer base, then they deserve to fail as a business.

Only people who respect Scotland deserve to live in Scotland.

God I hope you don't think you speak for me.

[Fife-Hibee]

God I hope you don't think you speak for me.

I speak for myself thank you very much. I'm sick of people who live here or move here with the sole purpose of whinging about how bad they think it is to live here. They're welcome to **** off.

[Fife-Hibee]

Does displaying a Union Jack count as disrespecting Scotland?

There's a difference between a business stating it's political affiliations and a business being open to people regardless of their personal affiliations. If a company displaying UJs goes out of business due to loss of customers, then I couldn't care less for them.

[weecounty hibby]

That's an outrageous parallel to draw, especially considering it was the owner that refused to serve the lady. If his business is boycotted then he has no one to blame but himself. Trying to suggest that anyone on here is advocating some kind of Scottish pogrom is a new low, even for your standards.

Well said

[marinello59]

There's a difference between a business stating it's political affiliations and a business being open to people regardless of their personal affiliations. If a company displaying UJs goes out of business due to loss of customers, then I couldn't care less for them.

You haven’t answered the question. Which was does displaying a Union Jack count as disrespecting Scotland?

[makaveli1875]

I speak for myself thank you very much. I'm sick of people who live here or move here with the sole purpose of whinging about how bad they think it is to live here. They're welcome to **** off.

You do a fair bit of whinging about how bad it is , maybe you could take your own advice

[Hibrandenburg]

I speak for myself thank you very much. I'm sick of people who live here or move here with the soul purpose of whinging about how bad they think it is to live here. They're welcome to **** off.

Isn't that what you do? Or have I somehow misinterpreted your wish for change? If you're unhappy about the status quo, aren't you just whinging about how bad things are in Scotland or is it just ok for you to do?

[marinello59]

That's an outrageous parallel to draw, especially considering it was the owner that refused to serve the lady. If his business is boycotted then he has no one to blame but himself. Trying to suggest that anyone on here is advocating some kind of Scottish pogrom is a new low, even for your standards.

Well said.
Any business that can’t treat people decently deserves to be boycotted regardless of political affiliation.

[weecounty hibby]

God I hope you don't think you speak for me.

Also well said. Fife is in a minority as far as I'm concerned within the independence movement. I agree with what he wants but the way he goes about it is totally wrong. Fife you will 100% alienate the very people we need to be persuading to come over to the side of independence.

[Fife-Hibee]

Also well said. Fife is in a minority as far as I'm concerned within the independence movement. I agree with what he wants but the way he goes about it is totally wrong. Fife you will 100% alienate the very people we need to be persuading to come over to the side of independence.

No I won't. Because the people who anger me the most are the one's who would never back independence anyway, even if all hell froze over. I'll reserve my convincing efforts for those who can actually be swayed to change their mind. That doesn't include pricks who kick old people out in the cold and rain for wearing their countries colours in their own country.

[Hibbyradge]

I speak for myself thank you very much. I'm sick of people who live here or move here with the sole purpose of whinging about how bad they think it is to live here. They're welcome to **** off.

:faf:

Aye, people move to Scotland with the sole purpose of complaining about it.

I see Trump has also been attacking people and making things up again.

[The Modfather]

Also well said. Fife is in a minority as far as I'm concerned within the independence movement. I agree with what he wants but the way he goes about it is totally wrong. Fife you will 100% alienate the very people we need to be persuading to come over to the side of independence.

Yep, I’ve pointed out before to Fife & James that both their approaches are more likely to dissuade me from their pro/anti independence beliefs but they crack on with the same petty arguments and non-objective opinions anyway.

[Hibrandenburg]

Also well said. Fife is in a minority as far as I'm concerned within the independence movement. I agree with what he wants but the way he goes about it is totally wrong. Fife you will 100% alienate the very people we need to be persuading to come over to the side of independence.

:agree: His posts just confirm claims that there's a nasty blood and soil element to Scottish nationalism, which may be true but only for a small minority of the movement. His posts are all over the place and have a similar positive effect for the independence movement like Tornadoes does for Scottish Labour.

[Hibbyradge]

Yep, I’ve pointed out before to Fife & James that both their approaches are more likely dissuade me from their pro/anti independence beliefs but they crack on with the same petty arguments and non-objective opinions anyway.

:agree:

Same goes for the missing Tornadoes70/Ingsh.

[Fife-Hibee]

"Blood and soil nationalism" :faf:

All because I believe in a country where old people don't get sent back out into the rain by people who only live here to spread their anti-scottish hatred.

Pathetic.

[Hibrandenburg]

"Blood and soil nationalism" :faf:

All because I believe in a country where old people don't get sent back out into the rain by people who only live here to spread their anti-scottish hatred.

Pathetic.

Telling people who live or moved here to "**** off" if they don't like it, is bread and butter nationalism. Maybe you need a rethink on either what constitutes blood and soil nationalism or where you stand.

[Fife-Hibee]

Telling people who live or moved here to "**** off" if they don't like it, is bread and butter nationalism. Maybe you need a rethink on either what constitutes blood and soil nationalism or where you stand.

I'll tell you what constitutes as blood and soil nationalism. Being treated as less than others for having the "wrong" flag. I'd be delighted if the blood and soil nationalists who own this business were to leave and never step foot in Scotland again.

[makaveli1875]

"Blood and soil nationalism" :faf:

All because I believe in a country where old people don't get sent back out into the rain by people who only live here to spread their anti-scottish hatred.

Pathetic.

Have just read the article , in the national . he didnt send her backout into the rain ..he sent her to the burger place across the road where she went and got her cup of tea .

[Hibrandenburg]

I'll tell you what constitutes as blood and soil nationalism. Being treated as less than others for having the "wrong" flag. I'd be delighted if the blood and soil nationalists who own this business were to leave and never step foot in Scotland again.

So who's going to decide who deserves deportation? Like it or not, after independence there will be those who still support the union, they're not going away overnight. Should we bring in laws to suppress their voices after independence or can they just be ****ed off back to where they came from. We're all gonna have to live together with or without independence and your views aren't helpful.

[marinello59]

"Blood and soil nationalism" :faf:

All because I believe in a country where old people don't get sent back out into the rain by people who only live here to spread their anti-scottish hatred.

Pathetic.

The guy has behaved like an absolute arse, no doubt about that. But I think his main reason for living here is because he is Scottish. I’m not so sure we can deport people for having different political views no matter how objectionable we may find them.

[Hibrandenburg]

The guy has behaved like an absolute arse, no doubt about that. But I think his main reason for living here is because he is Scottish. I’m not so sure we can deport people for having different political views no matter how objectionable we may find them.

:agree:

[Hibbyradge]

The guy has behaved like an absolute arse, no doubt about that. But I think his main reason for living here is because he is Scottish. I’m not so sure we can deport people for having different political views no matter how objectionable we may find them.

A chip shop owner sending a lady to a burger van across the street for her cup of tea, presumably because she supports independence, is a shocking, despicable crime against humanity.

But deporting people for supporting the Union is acceptable.

Have I got that right?

[RyeSloan]

I speak for myself thank you very much. I'm sick of people who live here or move here with the sole purpose of whinging about how bad they think it is to live here. They're welcome to **** off.

Ahh you’ve outdone yourself here Fife!

The irony of this post from someone who seems to complain about everything complaining about people complaining made me laugh out loud.

[weecounty hibby]

No I won't. Because the people who anger me the most are the one's who would never back independence anyway, even if all hell froze over. I'll reserve my convincing efforts for those who can actually be swayed to change their mind. That doesn't include pricks who kick old people out in the cold and rain for wearing their countries colours in their own country.
But can't you see that the rantings, and that's what they are, that you embark on just switch people off especially those who may be on the fence. When they see your brand of nationalism they probably think **** that. To be honest I am a nationalist through and through and have campaigned during all elections and Indyref but to be honest the nationalism that you go on about doesn't look or feel like the same as mine

[Moulin Yarns]

There's a difference between a business stating it's political affiliations and a business being open to people regardless of their personal affiliations. If a company displaying UJs goes out of business due to loss of customers, then I couldn't care less for them.

You won't have any complaint then when Westminster dissolves the Scottish Parliament then?

https://i2-prod.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article11995794.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/JS141749331.jpg

[Fife-Hibee]

You won't have any complaint then when Westminster dissolves the Scottish Parliament then?

https://i2-prod.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article11995794.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/JS141749331.jpg

Are you for real?

The Scottish Parliament doesn't display specific flags as a matter of choice. What an utterly ridiculous point to make.

[Moulin Yarns]

Are you for real?

The Scottish Parliament doesn't display specific flags as a matter of choice. What an utterly ridiculous point to make.


If a company displaying UJs goes out of business You never mentioned anything about choice. :greengrin

[marinello59]

Are you for real?

The Scottish Parliament doesn't display specific flags as a matter of choice. What an utterly ridiculous point to make.

Ah... seeing we are back on the subject could you answer my question. Does displaying the UJ constitute disrespecting Scotland?

[Fife-Hibee]

Ah... seeing we are back on the subject could you answer my question. Does displaying the UJ constitute disrespecting Scotland?

Well I suppose that would depend on the individual. But if I was running a business, the last thing I would do is risk alienating potential customers or clients by publicizing my political affiliations through my business.

But each to their own.

[Fife-Hibee]

You never mentioned anything about choice. :greengrin

I'll worry about the flags on display outside the Scottish Parliament if/when it appears to be going out of business. Which it more than likely will if we remain in the UK.

[marinello59]

Well I suppose that would depend on the individual. But if I was running a business, the last thing I would do is risk alienating potential customers or clients by publicizing my political affiliations through my business.

But each to their own.

Thanks for the answer. You confused me by linking displaying UJs to disrespecting Scotland in your original post.

[ronaldo7]

Have just read the article , in the national . he didnt send her backout into the rain ..he sent her to the burger place across the road where she went and got her cup of tea .

He sent her out of his place because she had a saltire round her shoulders, he told her to go over to the burger joint what she was made to feel very welcomed.

It was still raining when she was asked to leave his premises.

She was nearly 80 years old FFS.

Imagine owning a chippy, and being all chippy about the flag of your own country.

[Fife-Hibee]

Thanks for the answer. You confused me by linking displaying UJs to disrespecting Scotland in your original post.

I made no such link. Nothing about my original post had anything to do with businesses publicly displaying flags and everything to do with how they treat customers for the colours they wear.

[Moulin Yarns]

He sent her out of his place because she had a saltire round her shoulders, he told her to go over to the burger joint what she was made to feel very welcomed.

It was still raining when she was asked to leave his premises.

She was nearly 80 years old FFS.

Imagine owning a chippy, and being all chippy about the flag of your own country.

A simpler answer would have been to ask her tactfully to take the flag off and put it in her pocket.

[Fife-Hibee]

A simpler answer would have been to ask her tactfully to take the flag off and put it in her pocket.

How would he approach this?

"Excuse me, I know this is Scotland, a country where i've established my own business and rely on Scottish residents to keep me going. But if you would be so kind as to remove the Scotland flag from your garment as it may offend a few British-only types, ok? Thank you."

[Moulin Yarns]

Thanks for the answer. You confused me by linking displaying UJs to disrespecting Scotland in your original post.


I made no such link. Nothing about my original post had anything to do with businesses publicly displaying flags and everything to do with how they treat customers for the colours they wear.

Easy mistake to make when this is what was said.


Don't need to. I've seen companies paint union jacks on their own windows. If they want to damage their business by limiting their customer base, then they deserve to fail as a business.

Only people who respect Scotland deserve to live in Scotland.

[Fife-Hibee]

Easy mistake to make when this is what was said.

That wasn't my original post. It was in response to another post. I really don't see what the confusion is here.

[marinello59]

He sent her out of his place because she had a saltire round her shoulders, he told her to go over to the burger joint what she was made to feel very welcomed.

It was still raining when she was asked to leave his premises.

She was nearly 80 years old FFS.

Imagine owning a chippy, and being all chippy about the flag of your own country.

There is no defending what he did, it was horrible. I can’t get my head around how anybpdy could behave like they.
Thankfully people like that, regardless of their politics, are few and far between both in Scotland and Oban. I’m sure he’ll see a difference in his takings over the next few weeks

[Moulin Yarns]

How would he approach this?

"Excuse me, I know this is Scotland, a country where i've established my own business and rely on Scottish residents to keep me going. But if you would be so kind as to remove the Scotland flag from your garment as it may offend a few British-only types, ok? Thank you."

Or, "Excuse me, but Oban has a fairly large Rangers support and their bus to games leaves outside my shop. I saw those idiots in their Union Flag shirts with their protest against the march and I don't want my windows panned in, so could you hide the flag to avoid you being attacked by the knuckle draggers!

[makaveli1875]

He sent her out of his place because she had a saltire round her shoulders, he told her to go over to the burger joint what she was made to feel very welcomed.

It was still raining when she was asked to leave his premises.

She was nearly 80 years old FFS.

Imagine owning a chippy, and being all chippy about the flag of your own country.

Sorry to be pedantic but she was never in the chippy to be asked to leave . Source - the old lady

[marinello59]

Don't need to. I've seen companies paint union jacks on their own windows. If they want to damage their business by limiting their customer base, then they deserve to fail as a business.

Only people who respect Scotland deserve to live in Scotland.


I made no such link. Nothing about my original post had anything to do with businesses publicly displaying flags and everything to do with how they treat customers for the colours they wear.

Apologies. It is the post above I meant. You can probably see now why I was confused.

[Fife-Hibee]

Apologies. It is the post above I meant. You can probably see now why I was confused.

:aok:

[danhibees1875]

Well I suppose that would depend on the individual. But if I was running a business, the last thing I would do is risk alienating potential customers or clients by publicizing my political affiliations through my business.

But each to their own.

Do you think that every business that has either a Saltire or union jack displayed on their building or product is doing so as a political stance?

And you think people are, and should be, put off those businesses depending on what flag, if any, they have on display?

[ronaldo7]

Sorry to be pedantic but she was never in the chippy to be asked to leave . Source - the old lady

Sorry, I've been out and took the story from a national newspaper, this morning. Where is she saying she wasn't in the chippy

[Fife-Hibee]

Do you think that every business that has either a Saltire or union jack displayed on their building or product is doing so as a political stance?

And you think people are, and should be, put off those businesses depending on what flag, if any, they have on display?

There's a difference between having some flag or logo that has been associated with your company over a period of time and a company that suddenly starts splashing flags and logos all over their walls and windows which has nothing to do with the services they provide.

What I think about people being put off by it is neither here or there. The fact is, people will be put off by it. But hey, it's their business, if they want to shoot themselves in the foot, then they live in a country that gives them the freedom to do so.

[The Modfather]

Is James quieter than usual because Fife is doing his job for him? 🤔

[degenerated]

Ah... seeing we are back on the subject could you answer my question. Does displaying the UJ constitute disrespecting Scotland?On occasion :stirrer:

Anyone for Britch :greengrin

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190619/7c28a2c2089da0f371f15547595205b9.jpg

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

On occasion :stirrer:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190619/7c28a2c2089da0f371f15547595205b9.jpg

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

As it is Bell's I wouldn't drink it anyway. :greengrin


If anyone is tempted to drink Bell's here is a 'wee' bit of information about the distillery.

The strap line on the bottle is 'Afore you go' and on the tour they tell you that all the water used comes from the burn running through the distillery. This is the Kinnaird Burn, and a mile upstream is the hamlet of Kinnaird where there are now over 20 houses, none of which are conected to the public sewer system, they all have septic tanks, the outflow of which is into the Kinnaird Burn. Septic tanks are fine if maintained but occassionally something might go wrong and effluent makes its way into the watercourse.

At the end of a tour I took the opportunity to explain this to the guide, suggesting the strap line should be changed to 'After you've been' :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Would you support painting a symbol on their windows so people recognise it as a Unionists business, people can then avoid it? Maybe paint Union Jack's on the windows then people will know what businesses to avoid, hopefully they go out of business and the staff lose their jobs and we increase the benefits payable to them all.

Joyous and Civic indeed.

Are you advocating vandalism? :greengrin

I would have thought you were better than that. :wink:

[Sylar]

As it is Bell's I wouldn't drink it anyway. :greengrin


If anyone is tempted to drink Bell's here is a 'wee' bit of information about the distillery.

The strap line on the bottle is 'Afore you go' and on the tour they tell you that all the water used comes from the burn running through the distillery. This is the Kinnaird Burn, and a mile upstream is the hamlet of Kinnaird where there are now over 20 houses, none of which are conected to the public sewer system, they all have septic tanks, the outflow of which is into the Kinnaird Burn. Septic tanks are fine if maintained but occassionally something might go wrong and effluent makes its way into the watercourse.

At the end of a tour I took the opportunity to explain this to the guide, suggesting the strap line should be changed to 'After you've been' :greengrin

Nobody should ever be tempted to drink Bells anway, but even if a slurry of tolley was to make its way into the water abstracted by the distillery, it's purified and treated in-process (because let's be honest, a large number of distilleries use water from burns or streams that pass through agricultural land, and those bad boys don't adhere to sewers or septic tanks).

But the key takehome is "don't drink Bells".

[marinello59]

As it is Bell's I wouldn't drink it anyway. :greengrin


If anyone is tempted to drink Bell's here is a 'wee' bit of information about the distillery.

The strap line on the bottle is 'Afore you go' and on the tour they tell you that all the water used comes from the burn running through the distillery. This is the Kinnaird Burn, and a mile upstream is the hamlet of Kinnaird where there are now over 20 houses, none of which are conected to the public sewer system, they all have septic tanks, the outflow of which is into the Kinnaird Burn. Septic tanks are fine if maintained but occassionally something might go wrong and effluent makes its way into the watercourse.

At the end of a tour I took the opportunity to explain this to the guide, suggesting the strap line should be changed to 'After you've been' :greengrin

In the days before drinking malts became the norm then Bells was the mainstay of many of my parents house parties. I still buy a bottle occasionally and think back to those times, it really isn’t the worst blend out there. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Nobody should ever be tempted to drink Bells anway, but even if a slurry of tolley was to make its way into the water abstracted by the distillery, it's purified and treated in-process (because let's be honest, a large number of distilleries use water from burns or streams that pass through agricultural land, and those bad boys don't adhere to sewers or septic tanks).

But the key takehome is "don't drink Bells".

I know the process would destroy anything nasty, but the guide's face was a picture :greengrin

[makaveli1875]

Sorry, I've been out and took the story from a national newspaper, this morning. Where is she saying she wasn't in the chippy

“I saw the chip shop and thought I’d nip in there and get a cup of tea and get something to eat and get in out the rain. I got two feet in the door and a young man came up and said, ‘sorry you can’t come in here’

[marinello59]

“I saw the chip shop and thought I’d nip in there and get a cup of tea and get something to eat and get in out the rain. I got two feet in the door and a young man came up and said, ‘sorry you can’t come in here’

So she was two feet inside the shop?

[makaveli1875]

So she was two feet inside the shop?

back to school for makaveli

[ronaldo7]

“I saw the chip shop and thought I’d nip in there and get a cup of tea and get something to eat and get in out the rain. I got two feet in the door and a young man came up and said, ‘sorry you can’t come in here’

"I got two feet in the door".

I rest my case M' lud

[cabbageandribs1875]

Hammond warns leader candidates that Scotland leaving the union "would deprive Britain's next leader of the money needed to end austerity".




westminster really should start trying to save some money now...before their borrowing goes through the roof after they gain their independence from Scotland :wink:, england needs scotland more than scotland needs england...FACT :agree:


personally, i hope labour get in to power, that roof will get higher and higher

[Moulin Yarns]

Hammond warns leader candidates that Scotland leaving the union "would deprive Britain's next leader of the money needed to end austerity".




westminster really should start trying to save some money now...before their borrowing goes through the roof after they gain their independence from Scotland :wink:, england needs scotland more than scotland needs england...FACT :agree:


personally, i hope labour get in to power, that roof will get higher and higher

Did he really say that? What a plonker. Maybe this should be on the Tories are liars thread though, just to keep our heads down 😉

[cabbageandribs1875]

Did he really say that? What a plonker. Maybe this should be on the Tories are liars thread though, just to keep our heads down ��



all the comments on it appear to think so....so i do as well :greengrin




but probably one of those fake news thingies, words twisted etc etc :duck::greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

New panel base poll for the Times gives a 6 point lead for Yes in indyref2 if Boris becomes PM.
I support independence but can’t bring myself to hope Boris wins because it would be bad for everyone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190623/84936b59c5009614a2552a080a47a4bf.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

The resident "Scotsman" commenteers are no happy. :cb

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-absolutely-confident-scots-are-ready-to-vote-for-independence-1-4952675

[Callum_62]

New panel base poll for the Times gives a 6 point lead for Yes in indyref2 if Boris becomes PM.
I support independence but can’t bring myself to hope Boris wins because it would be bad for everyone.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSo the will of the Scottish people would be independence?

What what reason WM would find to tell us we don't really want it

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

The level of cringe here is unpalatable. Do they do this on purpose? Or is it really possible for people to be this ignorant?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=215&v=v45Du99HOFE

[allmodcons]

The level of cringe here is unpalatable. Do they do this on purpose? Or is it really possible for people to be this ignorant?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=215&v=v45Du99HOFE

I saw this yesterday, really just beggars belief. Ignorant *******s, all three of them.

[Fife-Hibee]

I saw this yesterday, really just beggars belief. Ignorant *******s, all three of them.

I'd go as far to say pretty much everybody in that studio. Including their "Scottish" audience. Can't tell if they were genuinely serious or attempting to pull off a parody of Question Time.

[speedy_gonzales]

The level of cringe here is unpalatable. Do they do this on purpose? Or is it really possible for people to be this ignorant?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=215&v=v45Du99HOFE

Why is it the talking heads that we see/hear have to have such divisive or extreme views/opinions.
They are not representative of the general public or even informed people.
The comment asking what natural resources Scotland has went more or less unchallenged. Complete whataboutery, but what natural resources do England/Wales/NI have?
Paul Burrel want the Union to remain,,,, well saying Scotland couldn't make it on its own isn't going to win too many folk over!

[ronaldo7]

The level of cringe here is unpalatable. Do they do this on purpose? Or is it really possible for people to be this ignorant?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=215&v=v45Du99HOFE

Dear Scotland,

You've only got some whisky, and a monster in a "lake". Oh, and irn bru.

Now get back in your box ya wee jumped up grievance monkeys.

I'm sure those other nationalists up there will keep you in check.

Your imperial masters.

[speedy_gonzales]

Dear Scotland,

You've only got some whisky, and a monster in a "lake". Oh, and irn bru.

Now get back in your box ya wee jumped up grievance monkeys.

I'm sure those other nationalists up there will keep you in check.

Your imperial masters.

Typo?

[degenerated]

Why is it the talking heads that we see/hear have to have such divisive or extreme views/opinions.
They are not representative of the general public or even informed people.
The comment asking what natural resources Scotland has went more or less unchallenged. Complete whataboutery, but what natural resources do England/Wales/NI have?
Paul Burrel want the Union to remain,,,, well saying Scotland couldn't make it on its own isn't going to win too many folk over!


England has Bullseye, Morris Dancing and innovative jams :greengrin whilst Northern Ireland......... (https://theulsterfry.com/business/sky-wins-tv-rights-to-the-twelfth-in-multi-million-deal/)

22224

[Moulin Yarns]

England has Bullseye, Morris Dancing and innovative jams :greengrin whilst Northern Ireland......... (https://theulsterfry.com/business/sky-wins-tv-rights-to- the-twelfth-in-multi-million-deal/)

22224

I don't have Sky, does that mean my days go 10, 11, 13, 14

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't have Sky, does that mean my days go 10, 11, 13, 14

Reminds me of the old joke about an Orangeman's calendar: January, February, March, March, March, March ...

[JeMeSouviens]

More data released by the Times from last week’s Panelbase poll -headline was Y49 N51 but Y53 N47 with BoJo (I recommend buckets of salt with hypotheticals).

Anyway the juicy bit this week is on Do you think there should be an indyref2?

52% said there should be either immediately or as soon as Brexit outcome known. Afaik that’s the first poll with majority support for a new ref in the short term.

Maybe someone should tell them about the currency??????? LOLZ

[Fife-Hibee]

More data released by the Times from last week’s Panelbase poll -headline was Y49 N51 but Y53 N47 with BoJo (I recommend buckets of salt with hypotheticals).

Anyway the juicy bit this week is on Do you think there should be an indyref2?

52% said there should be either immediately or as soon as Brexit outcome known. Afaik that’s the first poll with majority support for a new ref in the short term.

Maybe someone should tell them about the currency??????? LOLZ

52% is still nowhere near good enough. They'll be a sizable chunk of people who just want to get it over and done with because they just can't wait for their routine shafting from the next PM.

[southsider]

So clown A wants to bring back fox-hunting. Clown B counters with badger-baiting. Clown A says sending 7 year olds up lums kept them fit and their weight in check. One of those is going to be PM. God help us. Get out now Scotland.

[Callum_62]

Any reason why the UK Gov are keeping there indy poll secret? [emoji848]

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[marinello59]

Any reason why the UK Gov are keeping there indy poll secret? [emoji848]

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I don’t think it’s the Government. The allegation is it’s the Tory party keeping it secret. I hate to be fair to the Tories but every political party would do the same if their private polling results were unfavourable.

[Callum_62]

I don’t think it’s the Government. The allegation is it’s the Tory party keeping it secret. I hate to be fair to the Tories but every political party would do the same if their private polling results were unfavourable.Be interesting if they continue to say there is no appetite for indyref2

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[JeMeSouviens]

I don’t think it’s the Government. The allegation is it’s the Tory party keeping it secret. I hate to be fair to the Tories but every political party would do the same if their private polling results were unfavourable.

Tommy Sheppard claims it was a government funded poll. To be fair*, governments (including the Scottish one) often commission polls and rarely publish the results.


* extremely grudgingly.

[steakbake]

Be interesting if they continue to say there is no appetite for indyref2

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The tone has moved on from that to a “No Deal Brexit puts the Union in jeopardy” and “we will never allow a vote anyway”.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

The tone has moved on from that to a “No Deal Brexit puts the Union in jeopardy” and “we will never allow a vote anyway”.

The we will never allow line, is what the SNP should lead with.

[Fife-Hibee]

The we will never allow line, is what the SNP should lead with.

They will. But then what? A Catalonia style referendum where we win by a landslide but it doesn't count for anything and if we attempt to leave, they send up their thugs to sort us out.

[marinello59]

Tommy Sheppard claims it was a government funded poll. To be fair*, governments (including the Scottish one) often commission polls and rarely publish the results.


* extremely grudgingly.

I stand corrected then. Not for the first time. :greengrin

[marinello59]

The we will never allow line, is what the SNP should lead with.

The Greens and the SNP need to go in to any future election making it clear that a vote for them is a vote for another referundum to be held within a set time period. . That would give a clear mandate that the Westminster Government simply could not ignore.

[Jack]

The tone has moved on from that to a “No Deal Brexit puts the Union in jeopardy” and “we will never allow a vote anyway”.

If Westminster said no against a backdrop of an increasing will for a vote, never mind the eventual result, then I'm fairly certain Holyrood would take it to courts. Where I think Holyrood would win.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

They will. But then what? A Catalonia style referendum where we win by a landslide but it doesn't count for anything and if we attempt to leave, they send up their thugs to sort us out.

Should Boris win the the leadership race, I think that he would cut and run for a general election to try and cement his position. His appeal would obviously be to all extremes of the right. I don't see him putting his vanity and thirst for power behind any need for unity. England for the English is on the horizon and independence may not be something that Scotland needs to ask for.

[Fife-Hibee]

Should Boris win the the leadership race, I think that he would cut and run for a general election to try and cement his position. His appeal would obviously be to all extremes of the right. I don't see him putting his vanity and thirst for power behind any need for unity. England for the English is on the horizon and independence may not be something that Scotland needs to ask for.

England would never willingly give up Scotland. Even for someone like Boris Johnson with all his slavering bluster about how much of a "burden" Scotland is on the UK economy. He knows deep down that they would be considerably worse off without us.

[speedy_gonzales]

England would never willingly give up Scotland. Even for someone like Boris Johnson with all his slavering bluster about how much of a "burden" Scotland is on the UK economy. He knows deep down that they would be considerably worse off without us.
Careful now, the Unionists use the reciprocal argument and seem to get shot down here,,,,

[Callum_62]

The Greens and the SNP need to go in to any future election making it clear that a vote for them is a vote for another referundum to be held within a set time period. . That would give a clear mandate that the Westminster Government simply could not ignore.Didn't they already run on a clear new referdum based on specific results in the EU ref?

That's now ignored though

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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

England would never willingly give up Scotland. Even for someone like Boris Johnson with all his slavering bluster about how much of a "burden" Scotland is on the UK economy. He knows deep down that they would be considerably worse off without us.


That is perhaps the reasoned argument and opinion that may very well fall by the wayside in the coming weeks and months. Normal politics of left and right and Labour or Tory are secondary considerations to the nub of the matter which is in or out. When you see people who feel disenfranchised and left behind, sharing common ground with truly dangerous politicians such a Rees Mogg and Farage, then it is time to be concerned.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s up to the unionist who now advocate not allowing a 2nd indyref to explain what the democratic pathway to independence is?



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[Fife-Hibee]

It’s up to the unionist who now advocate not allowing a 2nd indyref to explain what the democratic pathway to independence is?



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It'll be something stupid like the SNP winning all of the Scottish seats at Westminster, or winning a clear majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament that's designed to prevent any kind of majority from occuring.

It'll be something impossible.

[makaveli1875]

It’s up to the unionist who now advocate not allowing a 2nd indyref to explain what the democratic pathway to independence is?



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There is no democratic pathway, we're going to be oppressed by our Tory overlords forever more