Scottish Independence

[NAE NOOKIE]

Living in Sweden now, I feel so very sad as I feel this is an opportunity for Scotland that's been truly wasted.
Being part of a fair & equal country is a wonderful thing for every child born in this country. And whilst we are part of Scandinavia for geography, Sweden is very much it's own country- and NOTHING / NO AMOUNT OF MONEY would make Swede's side with the Norwegians or Finnish even though we border them and many live/work in these countries daily.

I thought it was the same for Scotland? Is the country I left behind gone forever? Or in fact was it every there at all?

This post is an affront to my North British regional identity :grr:

[Hibrandenburg]

Living in Sweden now, I feel so very sad as I feel this is an opportunity for Scotland that's been truly wasted.
Being part of a fair & equal country is a wonderful thing for every child born in this country. And whilst we are part of Scandinavia for geography, Sweden is very much it's own country- and NOTHING / NO AMOUNT OF MONEY would make Swede's side with the Norwegians or Finnish even though we border them and many live/work in these countries daily.

I thought it was the same for Scotland? Is the country I left behind gone forever? Or in fact was it every there at all?

Top post mate. I agree with all of that, I sometimes don't recognize Scotland when I visit.

[Swedish hibee]

This post is an affront to my North British regional identity :grr:

Discuss why?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Discuss why?

It was a joke mate ... l liked your post, the answer to your question IMO is yes its gone.

[Pretty Boy]

Some of the videos from Glasgow tonight are fair cheering me up.

If that's how angry these people get when they win I'd hated to see them if they lost (I'm lying obviously I'd have loved them to have lost).

No surrenders, We Urra Peepul and Nazi er sorry red hand salutes aplenty.

[One Day Soon]

Not representative of the No camp. Yes had some eejits but just not as well organised as 'Bigots for No'

Better together ... unless you are a Catholic, a Muslim ...... well, anything which aint a WASP really


Better Together - and I AM a Catholic. So stop making daft generalisations.

[Swedish hibee]

It was a joke mate ... l liked your post, the answer to your question IMO is yes its gone.

Oops :embarrass

I just can't believe Scotland could & probably will be ruled by Tories, UKIP & Boris.. and we allowed it.
A very sad day indeed.

[Sir David Gray]

Very sad to see the scenes in Glasgow tonight.

Hopefully this isn't a sign of things to come.

We all need to get on together and behaviour like that is not what anyone would want.

[MyJo]

Very sad to see the scenes in Glasgow tonight.

Hopefully this isn't a sign of things to come.

We all need to get on together and behaviour like that is not what anyone would want.

Rangers fans would have been out in force like this regardless of the result, today they are gloating, if it went the other way they would be out protesting.

Either way its a shameful way to behave from a group of people where the majority will have voted no based purely on bigotry and hate rather than what was good for the country that they live in (but seem to dislike so much)

[SteveHFC]

Union Jack wielding ****bag rips Saltire from the clutches of a frightened young lassie https://t.co/cHy2NlyLlz

[Canongatehibs]

What the hell does Harry Potter have to do with this?

she produced MASSIVE funding for the Union Brigades.

[Canongatehibs]

Union Jack wielding ****bag rips Saltire from the clutches of a frightened young lassie https://t.co/cHy2NlyLlz

Absolutel SKCUM. Vermin.

[steakbake]

genuinely interested, but how are no voters feeling about the "pledge" being pulled apart right now?

[Northernhibee]

I wanted to post something to mark the events of the last few months and although I thought I'd feel jubilant today in the event of a no win, I feel a bit numb to the occasion.
I have lots of good friends who voted and fought for the Yes campaign and I can't even begin to imagine how it must feel to have missed out on something that so many felt so passionate about. I appreciate what both parties brought to the table and to see a record breaking turnout is something to be thankful for, that people have found their political and activists voice.
Such a polaric question on an important and emotionally charged subject will always create a divide and above all else, I don't want to see Scotland become a divided country. It will take time for us all on both sides to come to terms with the outcome of the referendum and rather than gloating or sniping I think it's good to be magnanimous at this moment in time.
Whether you answered yes or no yesterday we all voted for one common, shared cause - to vote for what each individual thought was best for Scotland. Although our reasoning and motivation may have differed and led us to different answers, the key motive of voting what is best for our proud nation runs through us all in equal measure.
In terms of the result, we have got what we have got. A majority voted no but that does not mean we should ignore the 45% that voted for independence yesterday. Instead I want to see both sides coming together once the dust has settled and everyone has come to terms with the outcome to share that common goal of what is best for Scotland and to recapture the energy and passion that has underlined the last few months of campaigning. Change happens when people come together with a view to changing the world around us and one thing that has been clear is we all want change.
I'm not going to post anything else in regards to the referendum for a while because I can only imagine that those who fought so hard for Yes will need some space to process and digest recent events and it is only fair that this space is given.
After this though I would hate, hate, hate to see our country divided. If we work together we can still change the world around us for the better. If we set ourselves up into two tribes then we can only regress.
Whatever way you've voted, in time may we find a common ground and a shared goal to work towards as a nation.

[Leith Green]

Very sad to see the scenes in Glasgow tonight.

Hopefully this isn't a sign of things to come.

We all need to get on together and behaviour like that is not what anyone would want.


Another massive reason why i will never be british or part of the uk, a massive element is so wrong. The upper class snobs who only give a toss about themselves, the bigoted orange loyalists, the strawberry and cream brigade, and the bnp/nazi brigade.

Funny how much was made off very little in incidents regarding the yes campaign, yet everyday Britain is a million times worse

[Swedish hibee]

After this though I would hate, hate, hate to see our country divided. If we work together we can still change the world around us for the better. If we set ourselves up into two tribes then we can only regress.

But there is a divide- rich & poor. Exactly what the YES vote wanted to stop.
The only way a country can never have a divide is that it is truly equal, and after today there isn't that option anymore.

The next generation is the hope. Hopefully all the children in current poverty will bring a change for the future- I'm very proud of what I've been reading them post so far.
Ahhh- strange things happen. St Mirren won tonight! :wink:

[Northernhibee]

But there is a divide- rich & poor. Exactly what the YES vote wanted to stop.
The only way a country can never have a divide is that it is truly equal, and after today there isn't that option anymore.

The next generation is the hope. Hopefully all the children in current poverty will bring a change for the future- I'm very proud of what I've been reading them post so far.
Ahhh- strange things happen. St Mirren won tonight! :wink:

Rich and poor is a relative thing - not everyone can be rich.

What we must now do is find a common voice once the dust has settled and fight for shortening the gap between rich and poor - together. We can't change the result but we have seen from the last few weeks that when ordinary people come together with a common goal and shared belief incredible things can happen. Look at the turnout last night - people have gotten re-engaged in politics and activism and if we can keep that going then we can still change the world around us for the better.

[Sir David Gray]

Another massive reason why i will never be british or part of the uk, a massive element is so wrong. The upper class snobs who only give a toss about themselves, the bigoted orange loyalists, the strawberry and cream brigade, and the bnp/nazi brigade.

Funny how much was made off very little in incidents regarding the yes campaign, yet everyday Britain is a million times worse

An idiot is an idiot, regardless of what they believe in or vote for.

There's been people on both sides who have seriously let themselves down.

[JeMeSouviens]

Rich and poor is a relative thing - not everyone can be rich.

What we must now do is find a common voice once the dust has settled and fight for shortening the gap between rich and poor - together. We can't change the result but we have seen from the last few weeks that when ordinary people come together with a common goal and shared belief incredible things can happen. Look at the turnout last night - people have gotten re-engaged in politics and activism and if we can keep that going then we can still change the world around us for the better.

I didn't see much sign of re-engagement on the no side. Weren't they bussing activists up from England to bolster numbers?

The Yes side has proved to itself that max engagement is useless if you run into the establishment machine. Disillusionment-max is all that's on offer.

[The_Exile]

Well the dust has settled, I've slept through most of the day but I'm still utterly devastated. Having said that, and in retrospect, 45% (over 1.6 million) voted for change. That's huge when you think about it, it's no landslide for No. I've got a feeling that the 45% won't lie down and accept more of the same. I really hope the country stays engaged with domestic politics and we can somehow change our country for the better. I'm on the brink of joining the Green party and becoming more involved in everything.

[over the line]

Another massive reason why i will never be british or part of the uk, a massive element is so wrong. The upper class snobs who only give a toss about themselves, the bigoted orange loyalists, the strawberry and cream brigade, and the bnp/nazi brigade.

Funny how much was made off very little in incidents regarding the yes campaign, yet everyday Britain is a million times worse

I am assuming your post is a bit clumsy, because I'm sure you're not tarring the whole UK with the same brush as the loathsome groups you have listed? I don't know or associate with any of those groups and neither do the vast majority of the UK. Those groups make up a tiny percentage of the UK population, they are disliked my the vast majority of British people and certainly don't represent the nation in any way. Every country in the world has disagreeable groups within it, its not exclusive to Britain is it?

[Leith Green]

I am assuming your post is a bit clumsy, because I'm sure you're not tarring the whole UK with the same brush as the loathsome groups you have listed? I don't know or associate with any of those groups and neither do the vast majority of the UK. Those groups make up a tiny percentage of the UK population, they are disliked my the vast majority of British people and certainly don't represent the nation in any way. Every country in the world has disagreeable groups within it, its not exclusive to Britain is it?


I said massive element. And other countries are not relevant to the point i was making.

[One Day Soon]

genuinely interested, but how are no voters feeling about the "pledge" being pulled apart right now?

In what way do you think it is being pulled apart?

[over the line]

I didn't see much sign of re-engagement on the no side. Weren't they bussing activists up from England to bolster numbers?

The Yes side has proved to itself that max engagement is useless if you run into the establishment machine. Disillusionment-max is all that's on offer.

I believe they were bussing activist up from England, but weren't the Yes campaign flying in celebrities from all over the world to support their cause?

[One Day Soon]

Another massive reason why i will never be british or part of the uk, a massive element is so wrong. The upper class snobs who only give a toss about themselves, the bigoted orange loyalists, the strawberry and cream brigade, and the bnp/nazi brigade.

Funny how much was made off very little in incidents regarding the yes campaign, yet everyday Britain is a million times worse

I don't think trying to cow journalists who ask awkward questions by having aggressive mobs picket the BBC is particularly democratic. FFS its the Tories who usually get paranoid about the BBC and its 'left' politicial agenda.

[steakbake]

In what way do you think it is being pulled apart?

Doesn't look like the Tory backbenchers are up for it, MPs saying the timetable for them can't be met and Miliband doesn't agree with the Tories proposals.

[One Day Soon]

I believe they were bussing activist up from England, but weren't the Yes campaign flying in celebrities from all over the world to support their cause?

They also had English people for Indy coming up to campaign did they not?

[Swedish hibee]

I'm on the brink of joining the Green party and becoming more involved in everything.

Do it!
I had the pleasure in working with the YES Scotland when I gave them information on the set up in all the Scandinavia countries and wrote some stuff. Even though I was a teeny part- They gave me hope of a better world. I made friends with some fantastic people & met them all on my last trip to Scotland.
Today is very sad- but with people like yourself, we'll never give up.

Good Luck :aok:

[One Day Soon]

Doesn't look like the Tory backbenchers are up for it, MPs saying the timetable for them can't be met and Miliband doesn't agree with the Tories proposals.

There is a commitment to legislate as soon as the new parliament is elected in May of next year and all three party leaders are signed up to it.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think Y celebs flew in of their own accord but actually who cares now anyway?

I'm wasting both our time responding. I didn't go on kickback to share being ****** off by the unmentionable final so **** knows what I'm doing here. G'night.

[Forever_Green93]

Roasters.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10202433758517846

[DaveF]

I don't think trying to cow journalists who ask awkward questions by having aggressive mobs picket the BBC is particularly democratic. FFS its the Tories who usually get paranoid about the BBC and its 'left' politicial agenda.

This is old ground as I know you have seen the clip but Salmond did answer the question. Robinson's report was skewed - most probably for the desired effect it received - and he sadly also didn't have time to fit in his heckling of a first minister.

Was the demo at Pacific Quay aggressive? I didn't see that reported (the aggression) by any outlets so if you can point me to that, I'd like to read it.

[johnbc70]

I believe they were bussing activist up from England, but weren't the Yes campaign flying in celebrities from all over the world to support their cause?

The yes campaign were bussing in people to vote from some of the more deprived areas. Why they needed a bus to make them vote, unless they had mobility issues, I am not sure. Maybe the needed a fleet of buses in Glasgow when you look at turnout.

I find it amazing these people could not be bothered to vote in the first place and needed the incentive of a free bus ride because they were so lazy they could not go to the polling station.

[One Day Soon]

I think Y celebs flew in of their own accord but actually who cares now anyway?

I'm wasting both our time responding. I didn't go on kickback to share being ****** off by the unmentionable final so **** knows what I'm doing here. G'night.


Actually that's fair enough.

[MyJo]

The yes campaign were bussing in people to vote from some of the more deprived areas. Why they needed a bus to make them vote, unless they had mobility issues, I am not sure. Maybe the needed a fleet of buses in Glasgow when you look at turnout.

I find it amazing these people could not be bothered to vote in the first place and needed the incentive of a free bus ride because they were so lazy they could not go to the polling station.

Or maybe these people arent regular voters and were uncertain of what to do so were glad to have some assistance and a crowd to follow.

[JimBHibees]

I don't think trying to cow journalists who ask awkward questions by having aggressive mobs picket the BBC is particularly democratic. FFS its the Tories who usually get paranoid about the BBC and its 'left' politicial agenda.

Also remember Alastair Campbell having a real pop at Nick Robinson accusing him of being biased because of his Tory past at the last Uk election. Ironic given Robinsons behaviour this week.

[over the line]

I said massive element. And other countries are not relevant to the point i was making.

But its not a massive element is it? They represent a tiny element of the UK, that's my point.

Scotland contains a small element of disagreeable groups/people (and an iS would have done too), the same as the rest of the UK does, the same as France does and the USA, Poland and even Norway, etc etc. There are c**** everywhere, no matter what flag you follow. But the vast majority of people are decent, what ever their nationality. It's not fair to link those groups to the rest of the decent people of the UK and I'd like to think you weren't anyway.

[DaveF]

There is a commitment to legislate as soon as the new parliament is elected in May of next year and all three party leaders are signed up to it.

I'm going link crazy :greengrin but where is that written down? Or are you talking about the Daily Record (http://i4.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article4265480.ece/alternates/s615b/1.jpg) 'iconic' vow?

I've seen quotes from Milliband saying that, if elected, Labour will deliver it in a new parliament.

I've seen quotes from Salmond saying the 2nd reading of the new bill would be March 27th.

I've seen quotes from Milliband saying Labour isn't singing up to PM's reforms.

I've seen Gordon Brown's vague promise.

Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places :confused:

[Canongatehibs]

I am assuming your post is a bit clumsy, because I'm sure you're not tarring the whole UK with the same brush as the loathsome groups you have listed? I don't know or associate with any of those groups and neither do the vast majority of the UK. Those groups make up a tiny percentage of the UK population, they are disliked my the vast majority of British people and certainly don't represent the nation in any way. Every country in the world has disagreeable groups within it, its not exclusive to Britain is it?

Can I add the insulting UKIP group he missed?

good old Great Britain.

Aye, right.

[over the line]

I think Y celebs flew in of their own accord but actually who cares now anyway?

I'm wasting both our time responding. I didn't go on kickback to share being ****** off by the unmentionable final so **** knows what I'm doing here. G'night.

Fair enough. Chin up though fella, it'll all be ok really.

[johnbc70]

Or maybe these people arent regular voters and were uncertain of what to do so were glad to have some assistance and a crowd to follow.

Ok I never thought of it like that, but how hard is it to put a X in a box.

[The_Exile]

Do it!
I had the pleasure in working with the YES Scotland when I gave them information on the set up in all the Scandinavia countries and wrote some stuff. Even though I was a teeny part- They gave me hope of a better world. I made friends with some fantastic people & met them all on my last trip to Scotland.
Today is very sad- but with people like yourself, we'll never give up.

Good Luck :aok:

Cheers mate, the past few months I've had something stirred inside me. The Greens stand for a lot of what I hold dear and a lot of things I long for. Cracking colour aswell mind :aok:

[over the line]

Can I add the insulting UKIP group he missed?

good old Great Britain.

Aye, right.

To be fair, the whole of Europe experienced a rise in the vote for UKIP type parties in the last EU election. I think it was a protest vote IMHO. But you are entitled not to like them, so fair enough.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Better Together - and I AM a Catholic. So stop making daft generalisations.

Think you have misinterpreted my post mate.

The point I was making was that that is the OL / BNPs idea of what better together means .... not what folk who voted no stand for. If you look at the first part of the post that's crystal clear. Perhaps if you insert 'they are' at the start of the first sentence it helps. But the absence of a question mark means you shouldn't have to.

[steakbake]

There is a commitment to legislate as soon as the new parliament is elected in May of next year and all three party leaders are signed up to it.

Come on now... Cameron wants to settle the WL Question at the same time to settle his party/ core support. Ed wants to dither about that and have a consultation.

[Mikey09]

I'm going link crazy :greengrin but where is that written down? Or are you talking about the Daily Record (http://i4.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article4265480.ece/alternates/s615b/1.jpg) 'iconic' vow?

I've seen quotes from Milliband saying that, if elected, Labour will deliver it in a new parliament.

I've seen quotes from Salmond saying the 2nd reading of the new bill would be March 27th.

I've seen quotes from Milliband saying Labour isn't singing up to PM's reforms.

I've seen Gordon Brown's vague promise.

Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places :confused:

The SNP produced the white paper..... Cameron, Clegg and miliband throw something together on the way to Scotland in blind panic and stick it on the front of the Daily Record.... :faf::faf::faf:
Biggest laugh is a percentage of voters swallow that garbage!!! If I didn't laugh about that I would cry...

[RyeSloan]

Living in Sweden now, I feel so very sad as I feel this is an opportunity for Scotland that's been truly wasted. Being part of a fair & equal country is a wonderful thing for every child born in this country. And whilst we are part of Scandinavia for geography, Sweden is very much it's own country- and NOTHING / NO AMOUNT OF MONEY would make Swede's side with the Norwegians or Finnish even though we border them and many live/work in these countries daily. I thought it was the same for Scotland? Is the country I left behind gone forever? Or in fact was it every there at all?

What about the Skane...are they not a separatist movement? Or the Sami?

[Mikey09]

So..... Day 1 of the pledge and no powers published. They wouldn't have been on the wind up no??! :wink:

[GreenLake]

Well the dust has settled, I've slept through most of the day but I'm still utterly devastated. Having said that, and in retrospect, 45% (over 1.6 million) voted for change. That's huge when you think about it, it's no landslide for No. I've got a feeling that the 45% won't lie down and accept more of the same. I really hope the country stays engaged with domestic politics and we can somehow change our country for the better. I'm on the brink of joining the Green party and becoming more involved in everything.

I like the colour, but they already have everyone except the rich driving hairdryers with wheels and paying double for petrol - even with all the free oil. :greengrin

[CorkHib]

Majority here (Rep. of Irl) who were interested seemed to favour yes/independence. Good media coverage too. As someone said on radio today - would have been nice to have another independent state between these two islands. Not much consolation I know but 45% of those who voted, voted yes. Almost half - that's still a huge number. Hope you folk get the benefits of the so-called pre-referendum 'pledge'. Politicians are the same the world over ... 'many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip.'

[Monopolyguy]

Why did I want a No vote? Because the larger the area / population that others associate me with, the less I am likely to be judged on it. I'd rather be British than Scottish, European than British and Northern Hemisphere(ish) than European and human more than that. Since aliens are either non-existent or out of reach I think that's enough for now.

You'd rather be European than British, but you support the no vote and now there is a very high chance that we will leave the EU in the next few years after the general election, where as if we had voted Yes we would be doing everything we could to retain EU memebership.

Care to enlighten me on that please?

[Mibbes Aye]

You'd rather be European than British, but you support the no vote and now there is a very high chance that we will leave the EU in the next few years after the general election, where as if we had voted Yes we would be doing everything we could to retain EU memebership.

Care to enlighten me on that please?

Is there?

Business i.e. employers don't want to leave the EU

Unions i.e. employees don't want to leave the EU

Voters have benefited from much of the EU's workings in day-to-day life - how many of us have flown easyjet or Ryanair?

If there is such a thing as the establishment, it's not wanted us to leave, that's evident.

There's a noisy, vocal group who want the UK to leave the EU.

We've seen in the last day or so that a noisy, vocal group don't speak for the electorate.

[SteveHFC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTDFJ15Mg7U#t=15

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10204523343782545&fref=nf

[Colr]

You'd rather be European than British, but you support the no vote and now there is a very high chance that we will leave the EU in the next few years after the general election, where as if we had voted Yes we would be doing everything we could to retain EU memebership.

Care to enlighten me on that please?

There's a massive inconsistency between the current governments stance in the UK and its stance on the EU that could be healed in the aftermath of this vote.

Devolution has IMO not only been a massive success for Scotland but has been an example to the UK parliament about how a democracy should be run. It's nimble and efficient in a way Whitehall is utterly unable to be. Much as I dislike Salmond, it enabled him to run a Country pretty well. A similar example might be the London mayor's office where arch twats like Boris and Ken manage to enact change, reflect their electorate and behave in a reasonable way that their previous rhetoric had suggested they were not mature enough to do.

In short, subsidiarity works and centralisation does not. For the current mob, a drive to subsidiarity would allow them to deal with the West Lothian issue which has been very poisonous in England and give tax raising/spending powers to Scotland, NI and Wales. The principle being similar to the City Deals they have signed with cities such as Manchester where opportunity to borrow and invest is devolved, the benefits of growth are retained locally but the consequences of poor policy have to be borne as well. In short, they stand on their own two feet. This need to be taken further with the UK to create a federation with a clear distinction between local tax/spend and federal/UK tax spend. Whitehall does ( big surprise) but I see no problem with local income tax and local sales tax as this exist in the US.

Such a position would be liberal and could be totally consistent with a view on staying in the EU. That is part of a larger federation but not micromanaged by it and still in control of our own destiny for better or worse.

[Hibrandenburg]

The SNP produced the white paper..... Cameron, Clegg and miliband throw something together on the way to Scotland in blind panic and stick it on the front of the Daily Record.... :faf::faf::faf:
Biggest laugh is a percentage of voters swallow that garbage!!! If I didn't laugh about that I would cry...

It was much easier to read and meant having to spend less time away from the telly.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Also remember Alastair Campbell having a real pop at Nick Robinson accusing him of being biased because of his Tory past at the last Uk election. Ironic given Robinsons behaviour this week.

Nick Robinson had dinner with the PM the week before the referendum.

I also lnow that the PM was personally phoning business lesders to 'encourage' them to come out against independence.

[Colr]

Nick Robinson had dinner with the PM the week before the referendum.

I also lnow that the PM was personally phoning business lesders to 'encourage' them to come out against independence.

Did Alex Salmond phone anyone and ask them to support independence?

[degenerated]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTDFJ15Mg7U#t=15

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10204523343782545&fref=nf
Is this what better together looks like.

[johnbc70]

Is this what better together looks like.

No.

[sauzee_4]

No.

Hi everyone, getting over my hangover (slowly) does anyone know how Leith voted? I've seen the results for Edinburgh, Glasgow etc but haven't seen any more detailed analysis than that. Apart from the age grouping analysis that seems to have been done

[#FromTheCapital]

Hi everyone, getting over my hangover (slowly) does anyone know how Leith voted? I've seen the results for Edinburgh, Glasgow etc but haven't seen any more detailed analysis than that. Apart from the age grouping analysis that seems to have been done

I'm sure I seen a post on twitter saying that Leith and one or two other areas (muirhouse springs to mind) voted in favour of yes. Likewise west edinburgh voted no by a 4:1 ratio. Don't ask me to back that up though.

[MyJo]

Did Alex Salmond phone anyone and ask them to support independence?

The scottish people.

Seems DC has better friends than AS

[Leith Green]

I'm sure I seen a post on twitter saying that Leith and one or two other areas (muirhouse springs to mind) voted in favour of yes. Likewise west edinburgh voted no by a 4:1 ratio. Don't ask me to back that up though.

Where would we find that information? Wondered that myself.

[#FromTheCapital]

Where would we find that information? Wondered that myself.

I've no idea mate. Just seen a post on twitter not long after the results were announced. Can't even remember who posted it.

[Coco Bryce]

Is this what better together looks like.

Damn! where we voting for independence from Glasgow?

Wish I had know that :rolleyes:

[Sergio sledge]

Irvine Welsh in the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/20/irvine-welsh-scottish-independence-glorious-failure?CMP=fb_gu)

Sent from my Venue 8 Pro 5830 using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

Irvine Welsh in the Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/20/irvine-welsh-scottish-independence-glorious-failure?CMP=fb_gu)

Sent from my Venue 8 Pro 5830 using Tapatalk

Was just about to post that.

Enjoyed reading it.

[Betty Boop]

Did Alex Salmond phone anyone and ask them to support independence?

Well he did do a bit of cosying up to Rupert Murdoch.

[over the line]

Well he did do a bit of cosying up to Rupert Murdoch.

A man of the utmost integrity.....???? ;)

[Betty Boop]

A man of the utmost integrity.....???? ;)


Mmm and then there's his ties with the despicable anti-gay rights campaigner and section 28 supporter Brian Souter.

[Colr]

Well he did do a bit of cosying up to Rupert Murdoch.

Hope he didn't **** his wife like Tony did (allegedly) !

[Colr]

Mmm and then there's his ties with the despicable anti-gay rights campaigner and section 28 supporter Brian Souter.

Did he appear on a platform with Alan Cummings?

[Betty Boop]

Did he appear on a platform with Alan Cummings?


Yea I believe he did, at the launch of the Yes campaign at Cineworld Fountainpark.

[The_Exile]

13507

Strangely delighted at the above statistics, just shows the majority of people who would actually end up taking Scotland forward voted Yes. It'll happen eventually, I'm heartbroken for the 16-17 year olds, that's a massive majority Yes vote from them.

[Pretty Boy]

13507

Strangely delighted at the above statistics, just shows the majority of people who would actually end up taking Scotland forward voted Yes. It'll happen eventually, I'm heartbroken for the 16-17 year olds, that's a massive majority Yes vote from them.

Posted some of those statistics on the PM board earlier and Irvine Welsh referenced them in his piece for the Guardian as well.

Heartening to see my generation (24-35) vote decisively for yes.

[Leith Green]

Posted some of those statistics on the PM board earlier and Irvine Welsh referenced them in his piece for the Guardian as well.

Heartening to see my generation (24-35) vote decisively for yes.

Those stats tell me that allegiance to the Union is dying out with age. Hopefully these people become involved in politics and carry the fight on.. Im the same age group as yourself, and its staggering how many folk of a similar age want this

[NAE NOOKIE]

Saturday afternoon at last ....................................... C'mon the Hibees !!! :flag:


I have voiced my opinion on this thread and my position is pretty clear. I am upset with the 55% of my fellow Scots who have, if not killed, then at least sent to hospital my dream of independence.

But here's the truth of it .... they are still my fellow Scots. To put it in fitba terms, I have a few friends who are Jambos and even though we are poles apart on a Saturday afternoon we all have one thing in common ........... we are fitba fans. There has been a few threads on here in the past from Hibbies mourning the passing of a Hearts supporting friend and that is the way it should be ... we are all united by a common bond in the end.

I might support team 45% and my friend might support team 55% .....but the common bond is Scotland and though we may fundamentally disagree on its future we can still be friends .... I feel very sorry for anybody who has fractured a friendship over this in the last few weeks and hope for them that reconciliation is the order of the day.

[One Day Soon]

Saturday afternoon at last ....................................... C'mon the Hibees !!! :flag:


I have voiced my opinion on this thread and my position is pretty clear. I am upset with the 55% of my fellow Scots who have, if not killed, then at least sent to hospital my dream of independence.

But here's the truth of it .... they are still my fellow Scots. To put it in fitba terms, I have a few friends who are Jambos and even though we are poles apart on a Saturday afternoon we all have one thing in common ........... we are fitba fans. There has been a few threads on here in the past from Hibbies mourning the passing of a Hearts supporting friend and that is the way it should be ... we are all united by a common bond in the end.

I might support team 45% and my friend might support team 55% .....but the common bond is Scotland and though we may fundamentally disagree on its future we can still be friends .... I feel very sorry for anybody who has fractured a friendship over this in the last few weeks and hope for them that reconciliation is the order of the day.


That's a spectacularly good post. You 45% git.

See you behind the goals...

[Pretty Boy]

Saturday afternoon at last ....................................... C'mon the Hibees !!! :flag:


I have voiced my opinion on this thread and my position is pretty clear. I am upset with the 55% of my fellow Scots who have, if not killed, then at least sent to hospital my dream of independence.

But here's the truth of it .... they are still my fellow Scots. To put it in fitba terms, I have a few friends who are Jambos and even though we are poles apart on a Saturday afternoon we all have one thing in common ........... we are fitba fans. There has been a few threads on here in the past from Hibbies mourning the passing of a Hearts supporting friend and that is the way it should be ... we are all united by a common bond in the end.

I might support team 45% and my friend might support team 55% .....but the common bond is Scotland and though we may fundamentally disagree on its future we can still be friends .... I feel very sorry for anybody who has fractured a friendship over this in the last few weeks and hope for them that reconciliation is the order of the day.

Good post.

I'm glad to say whilst I'ev enjoyed robust debate with many over the last few months I have fallen out with no one regardless of their views. Long may that continue.

[s.a.m]

13507

Strangely delighted at the above statistics, just shows the majority of people who would actually end up taking Scotland forward voted Yes. It'll happen eventually, I'm heartbroken for the 16-17 year olds, that's a massive majority Yes vote from them.


Worth bearing in mind, though, that the 16/17 year old sample base was only 14.

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Scotland-Post-Referendum-poll-Full-tables-1409191.pdf

It's hard to know, even if there had been an acceptable sample size, whether those views will be the same in the future, at the various age categories listed. Most people's political views alter to some degree as they age, and there will be a decent number of both yes and no voting 16 and 17year olds who will have the opposite opinion in the future, as life exposes them to new experiences, commitments and responsibilities.

[#FromTheCapital]

Worth bearing in mind, though, that the 16/17 year old sample base was only 14.

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Scotland-Post-Referendum-poll-Full-tables-1409191.pdf

It's hard to know, even if there had been an acceptable sample size, whether those views will be the same in the future, at the various age categories listed. Most people's political views alter to some degree as they age, and there will be a decent number of both yes and no voting 16 and 17year olds who will have the opposite opinion in the future, as life exposes them to new experiences, commitments and responsibilities.

:agree:

I dare say I'd have voted yes if the vote was 10 years ago.

[Pretty Boy]

In the last 48 houra the SNP have received 4000 membershio applications, the Greens 1200 and the SSP almost 600.

Seems a few people do want to stya involved in the politixal process

[Peevemor]

In the last 48 houra the SNP have received 4000 membershio applications, the Greens 1200 and the SSP almost 600.

Seems a few people do want to stya involved in the politixal process

Even when they can't type! :greengrin:

[One Day Soon]

In the last 48 houra the SNP have received 4000 membershio applications, the Greens 1200 and the SSP almost 600.

Seems a few people do want to stya involved in the politixal process

Those three parties will be at each others throats with a vengeance in short order. Competing for seats on the regional list in the Scottish Parliament means that they need to take each other out. Don't know what the bookies are offering on the SNP not forming the next Scottish Government but it is a bet worth looking at.

[Cameron1875]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-IhhSfPrHc

It'll come, don't worry :agree:

[Leith Green]

SNP saying 5000 new members now since yesterday

[degenerated]

SNP saying 5000 new members now since yesterday
Well I'm one of them. :cool:

[Pretty Boy]

SNP saying 5000 new members now since yesterday

I rejoined the SSP yesterday.

Was a member as a student but drifted away in recent years. Thr last few weeks have invigorated me to get involved again. I don't agree with them on everything but in years gone by they proved to be a decent voice of the left in Scotland. They were instrumental in introducing and forcing through the abolition of warrant sales act for example. Colin Fox also came in for a lot of praise from the Yes campaign for his conduct and contribution throughout.

[Leith Green]

I rejoined the SSP yesterday.

Was a member as a student but drifted away in recent years. Thr last few weeks have invigorated me to get involved again. I don't agree with them on everything but in years gone by they proved to be a decent voice of the left in Scotland. They were instrumental in introducing and forcing through the abolition of warrant sales act for example. Colin Fox also came in for a lot of praise from the Yes campaign for his conduct and contribution throughout.

I think all these parties need to work together with focus firmly on the common goal we all share, hopefully with properly thought out plans for independence. These parties ideology may not be the same, but they believe in what a large percentage of scots want, to be independant.

The Yes movement is going to grow in my opinion, and the more people like ourselves who participate the better

[lucky]

How can the SNP who support a cut in corperation tax work with the Tortskyite SSP ? It was fine in the referendum campaign but in " normal" politics it's very unlikely. The far left will turn on each other the SSP and Solidarity hate each other with passion. Between them they got less than 1% of vote in the last General Election. The greens might improve their share in the list vote but won't win any 1st past the post seats

[Leith Green]

How can the SNP who support a cut in corperation tax work with the Tortskyite SSP ? It was fine in the referendum campaign but in " normal" politics it's very unlikely. The far left will turn on each other the SSP and Solidarity hate each other with passion. Between them they got less than 1% of vote in the last General Election. The greens might improve their share in the list vote but won't win any 1st past the post seats


I meant work together on independence

[lord bunberry]

SNP saying 5000 new members now since yesterday
I'm going to join later tonight.

[James.]

http://nationalcollective.com/2014/09/20/statement-how-we-won-and-how-we-will-win/

No one is going to let this go. A day on and I feel really optimistic that we can still make a difference.

[lord bunberry]

http://nationalcollective.com/2014/09/20/statement-how-we-won-and-how-we-will-win/

No one is going to let this go. A day on and I feel really optimistic that we can still make a difference.
Me too, more determine than I've ever been

[Peevemor]

http://nationalcollective.com/2014/09/20/statement-how-we-won-and-how-we-will-win/

No one is going to let this go. A day on and I feel really optimistic that we can still make a difference.

A fantastic, , well written statement from National Collective. I know one of their founders and he's devastated, however they're a young dynamic crew and they're not about to let it go.

[the_ginger_hibee]

http://nationalcollective.com/2014/09/20/statement-how-we-won-and-how-we-will-win/

No one is going to let this go. A day on and I feel really optimistic that we can still make a difference.

Good stuff :agree: Enjoyable and inspiring read.

I hope we can all join/campaign/follow places like Yes Scotland, National Collective, Bella Caledonia and what-ever independence supporting party you can associate with (SSP, SNP, Greens etc.). The vote has been and gone, but the passion we all had should be channelled into keeping the independence dream alive.

One day...

[Swedish hibee]

Yesterday’s ‘Tribune de Genéve’ carried a cartoon showing a kilted Scotsman standing high on a rock. Two hikers are passing by – the woman says “Look – he’s got nothing on under his kilt!” The man replies “Yes – and he’s got no balls..

[lord bunberry]

Yesterday’s ‘Tribune de Genéve’ carried a cartoon showing a kilted Scotsman standing high on a rock. Two hikers are passing by – the woman says “Look – he’s got nothing on under his kilt!” The man replies “Yes – and he’s got no balls..
Well it's time to prove them wrong

[OsloHibs]

Well it's time to prove them wrong

I hope Scotland does. Living in Norway I cannot understand why Scotland didn't vote for an equal free country. Norway shares it oil with no-one! :wink:

[Swedish hibee]

I hope Scotland does. Living in Norway I cannot understand why Scotland didn't vote for an equal free country. Norway shares it oil with no-one! :wink:

The Norwegians got it right!! The vote was something like 99.9% for and 180 votes against :greengrin

[Judas Iscariot]

Well it's time to prove them wrong

The time was 2 days ago..

Doubt we'll see it again

[over the line]

The time was 2 days ago..

Doubt we'll see it again

Dead right, its done and dusted now.

[The_Exile]

The time was 2 days ago..

Doubt we'll see it again

Yep, my worry is it was such a fright for them that they won't give us another opportunity. I take it that we need permission from Westminster for another referendum?

[snooky]

Dead right, its done and dusted now.

Still a lot of stoor that won't go away (I hope).

[snooky]

Yesterday’s ‘Tribune de Genéve’ carried a cartoon showing a kilted Scotsman standing high on a rock. Two hikers are passing by – the woman says “Look – he’s got nothing on under his kilt!” The man replies “Yes – and he’s got no balls..

Sorry to be pedantic but, that should read "But at least he has one ball" :coffee:

[JimBHibees]

How can the SNP who support a cut in corperation tax work with the Tortskyite SSP ? It was fine in the referendum campaign but in " normal" politics it's very unlikely. The far left will turn on each other the SSP and Solidarity hate each other with passion. Between them they got less than 1% of vote in the last General Election. The greens might improve their share in the list vote but won't win any 1st past the post seats

Got to be said I really don't want to hear Labour girning about a biased press in the Uk election after being so obviously happy to go along with the biased media campaign in this campaign.

[sadtom]

Those three parties will be at each others throats with a vengeance in short order. Competing for seats on the regional list in the Scottish Parliament means that they need to take each other out. Don't know what the bookies are offering on the SNP not forming the next Scottish Government but it is a bet worth looking at.

Of course these party's have their separate objectives, however I think the recent campaign has lead to a degree of respect (no. not gorgeous George. ;-) ).

Im led to believe that an environment of cooperation is likely - perhaps an umbrella group being formed to coordinate tactics and mutual support.

For my own part I'm looking to be getting involved again with RIC - SSP.
After years of inactivity due to burn out, work, kids etc I have been enthused and invigorated again. I feel that he fire is back in my belly (though it may just be indigestion after a Crabbies or 2 too many ! :-) )

Good to hear so many getting active again (or for 1st time), more power to your collective elbows.
Avanti!

[Stranraer]

Absolutely devastated - I campaigned very hard for a Yes vote and was gutted at the result. My Tory representative and I shook hands but I couldn't hold back my tears. I just broke down, so embarrassing but he was such a great guy to talk to, he understood my passion and I respect that.

I still won't vote Tory and here are the list of political party's that I won't chase out of my garden if they knock:

The Tories (even though I disagree with almost everything they stand for)
The Liberals (they will probably be crying on my shoulder)
The SNP (they have my vote)
The Greens (for their positive role in the indy campaign).

Labour can GTF :greengrin

[NAE NOOKIE]

Yesterday’s ‘Tribune de Genéve’ carried a cartoon showing a kilted Scotsman standing high on a rock. Two hikers are passing by – the woman says “Look – he’s got nothing on under his kilt!” The man replies “Yes – and he’s got no balls..

Lets see Mel Gibson make a fkng film oot o' that.

[NAE NOOKIE]

http://nationalcollective.com/2014/09/20/statement-how-we-won-and-how-we-will-win/

No one is going to let this go. A day on and I feel really optimistic that we can still make a difference.

Great statement ..... Especially their bit about the media, the incredibly one sided stance of the press just cant be healthy in any supposed democratic society.

[Mikey09]

I hope Scotland does. Living in Norway I cannot understand why Scotland didn't vote for an equal free country. Norway shares it oil with no-one! :wink:


Thats an amazing coincidence... Westminster shares Scotland's oil with no one either!!! :wink:

[Stranraer]

My father is joining the SNP. He was a firm Yes supporter and like me was gutted about the result.

I really hope after Labour take a kicking next year in the British general election we see the SSP and Greens make some gains in the Scottish Parliament come 2016.

[RyeSloan]

My father is joining the SNP. He was a firm Yes supporter and like me was gutted about the result. I really hope after Labour take a kicking next year in the British general election we see the SSP and Greens make some gains in the Scottish Parliament come 2016.

Jeez there you go again...bringing violence into politics, disgusting...

;-)

[Pete]

Well it's time to prove them wrong

:agree:

Those who voted no because they truly believe in the union are fine by me but those who voted no through fear? They remind me of a 40 year old who rejects the offer of a council flat because he prefers to stay at home with his mummy.

They need to do some searching up their kilts. Hopefully a comprehensive argument can be developed to persuade these people that the bogey man might not be real.

[hibee72]

Thats an amazing coincidence... Westminster shares Scotland's oil with no one either!!! :wink:

Just before the poll results came out, I read this funny joke on the Internet:
"What if Scotland should run out of its oil?"
"Ask it to England, tomorrow they'll run out of theirs."

Sad to say, today we can answer: "Scotland can't tell: Scotland never had its own oil. Scottish people decided to give it Britons for free."
Machiavelli used to warn out that often the best ally of your enemy is inside your house. :(

[Hibrandenburg]

Hate to quote the IRA but it's quite fitting, "Today the British Government got lucky, they have to get lucky all the time, we just need to get lucky once".

[marinello59]

Hate to quote the IRA but it's quite fitting, "Today the British Government got lucky, they have to get lucky all the time, we just need to get lucky once".

It's not fitting at all.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's not fitting at all.

How so? All we have to do is win one referendum and there's no going back. I'd say it's fitting.

[marinello59]

How so? All we have to do is win one referendum and there's no going back. I'd say it's fitting.

It's nothing to do with luck.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's nothing to do with luck.

:rolleyes:

[marinello59]

:rolleyes:

Sorry , you posted a comment about getting lucky . Perhaps that wasnt your point in which case you could maybe clarify that rather than posting a smiley.

[over the line]

Hate to quote the IRA but it's quite fitting, "Today the British Government got lucky, they have to get lucky all the time, we just need to get lucky once".

Taking inspiration from the IRA.......... really?!?!?

[Hibrandenburg]

Taking inspiration from the IRA.......... really?!?!?

That's pushing it a bit considering I've lost good mates to them but don't let that spoil you're twisted dig.

[johnbc70]

Hate to quote the IRA but it's quite fitting, "Today the British Government got lucky, they have to get lucky all the time, we just need to get lucky once".

What was the 'today' referring to so I can put this into context?

[marinello59]

That's pushing it a bit considering I've lost good mates to them but don't let that spoil you're twisted dig.

To be fair to him you posted that up knowing that somebody would give you that sort of response and had your retort ready .

[Hibrandenburg]

Sorry , you posted a comment about getting lucky . Perhaps that wasnt your point in which case you could maybe clarify that rather than posting a smiley.

If you take all turns of phrase to only mean that what the individual words in them mean as defined in the dictionary instead of the idioms they've become to mean then maybe I'm just urinating against the wind here.

Note: Whilst writing this post I'd like to point out that at no point were my trousers open and it's wind still in Berlin at present.

[Hibrandenburg]

To be fair to him you posted that up knowing that somebody would give you that sort of response and had your retort ready .

Not at all and in no way but if you're always looking to find something negative in what folks say I can see how you might come to that conclusion.

[over the line]

That's pushing it a bit considering I've lost good mates to them but don't let that spoil you're twisted dig.


How is that a twisted dig, you used a quote from the IRA to make your point? You are taking inspiration from that quote for future independence referendums aren't you? All I've done is question the necessity of using such a quote.

[marinello59]

If you take all turns of phrase to only mean that what the individual words in them mean as defined in the dictionary instead of the idioms they've become to mean then maybe I'm just urinating against the wind here.

Note: Whilst writing this post I'd like to point out that at no point were my trousers open and it's wind still in Berlin at present.

I may disagree with you frequently but your posts generally add something to the debate . You just seem to be looking for an argument today. I'm hungover so could we keep it simple? You post Black up every so often and I will quote you and post White later. It will save us both wasting a lot of effort.:greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

What was the 'today' referring to so I can put this into context?

Sorry I assumed the thread title would have sufficed to explain that.

[lobster]

Pathetic 
Just noticed this nasty reductionist reply. If you have nothing to contribute beyond abuse or cat calling why bother?
Judging by your posts on his thread you seem intent to abuse and ridicule anything you come across rather than make a point. This suggests more about your apparently bereft psychological condition than the posts you try to undermine. Please desist.

[johnbc70]

Sorry I assumed the thread title would have sufficed to explain that.

Sorry I meant the 'today' the IRA were meaning?

[Hibrandenburg]

Sorry , you posted a comment about getting lucky . Perhaps that wasnt your point in which case you could maybe clarify that rather than posting a smiley.

If you take all turns of phrase to only mean that what the individual words in them mean as defined in the dictionary instead of the idioms they've become to mean then maybe I'm just urinating against the wind here.

Note: Whilst writing this post I'd like to point out that at no point were my trousers open and it's wind still in Berlin at present.

[marinello59]

If you take all turns of phrase to only mean that what the individual words in them mean as defined in the dictionary instead of the idioms they've become to mean then maybe I'm just urinating against the wind here.

Note: Whilst writing this post I'd like to point out that at no point were my trousers open and it's wind still in Berlin at present.

:rolleyes:

:greengrin

[RyeSloan]

Hate to quote the IRA but it's quite fitting, "Today the British Government got lucky, they have to get lucky all the time, we just need to get lucky once".

Let's have the full quote for clarity:

Mrs. Thatcher will now realise that Britain cannot occupy our country and torture our prisoners and shoot our people in their own streets and get away with it. Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always. Give Ireland peace and there will be no more war.

You posted a quote from a terrorist organisation claiming responsibility for a deadly act, I would suggest you did so only to get a reaction...you got one, sure you are pleased with yourself.

Personally I find it rather abhorrent.

[Hibrandenburg]

Sorry I meant the 'today' the IRA were meaning?


Sorry :greengrin

It was a quote they made after the Brighton bombing. What they meant is that they only have to get it right once but the British need to get it right all the time.

That's what I meant in relationship to independence, the unionists need to win every referendum, we only need to win once and it's game over.

[Hibrandenburg]

:rolleyes:

:greengrin

Heh heh heh! :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Let's have the full quote for clarity:

Mrs. Thatcher will now realise that Britain cannot occupy our country and torture our prisoners and shoot our people in their own streets and get away with it. Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always. Give Ireland peace and there will be no more war.

You posted a quote from a terrorist organisation claiming responsibility for a deadly act, I would suggest you did so only to get a reaction...you got one, sure you are pleased with yourself.

Personally I find it rather abhorrent.

Really? Actually I'm quite pissed off with the reaction and expected my quote to be taken at face value, I probably should have known better.

Could you do me the favour of listing all those groups and people we're not allowed to quote, it'll save me the trouble in future of having to spell it out that quoting someone doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with all they stand for.

While we're at it lets also ban people from quoting Cromwell, Caesar, Mugabe, Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon and Mussolini.

Some great quotes amongst that lot but let's ignore them because they were all nasty pieces of work. :rolleyes:

[Hibrandenburg]

Sorry I meant the 'today' the IRA were meaning?


Sorry :greengrin

It was a quote they made after the Brighton bombing. What they meant is that they only have to get it right once but the British need to get it right all the time.

That's what I meant in relationship to independence, the unionists need to win every referendum, we only need to win once and it's game over.

[Canongatehibs]

That's pushing it a bit considering I've lost good mates to them but don't let that spoil you're twisted dig.

im quite sure the it's others can say the same of British death squad misdemeanours.

swings and roundabouts my friend.

[Hibrandenburg]

im quite sure the it's others can say the same of British death squad misdemeanours.

swings and roundabouts my friend.

I'm quite sure none of my mates were gunning people down, quite the opposite in fact.

[RyeSloan]

Really? Actually I'm quite pissed off with the reaction and expected my quote to be taken at face value, I probably should have known better. Could you do me the favour of listing all those groups and people we're not allowed to quote, it'll save me the trouble in future of having to spell it out that quoting someone doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with all they stand for. While we're at it lets also ban people from quoting Cromwell, Caesar, Mugabe, Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon and Mussolini. Some great quotes amongst that lot but let's ignore them because they were all nasty pieces of work. :rolleyes:

You can quote who you want....but using a quote from a terrorist organisation taking credit for a deadly bombing is not something I would do personally.

If you want to quote any of the above in an attempt to relate it to a democratic vote on Scotland's future go right ahead, just don't expect everyone to share your comfort in doing so.

[over the line]

Really? Actually I'm quite pissed off with the reaction and expected my quote to be taken at face value, I probably should have known better.

Could you do me the favour of listing all those groups and people we're not allowed to quote, it'll save me the trouble in future of having to spell it out that quoting someone doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with all they stand for.

While we're at it lets also ban people from quoting Cromwell, Caesar, Mugabe, Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon and Mussolini.

Some great quotes amongst that lot but let's ignore them because they were all nasty pieces of work. :rolleyes:

Yes I mean how could you have possibly known that quoting the IRA on an independence from the UK thread would cause controversy? But as you have said yourself, you should have known better, so fair enough.

Feel free to use quotes from any one of the people on your list but I'm not sure they will inspire people to believe in a future iS, which I think was the intention of your original post.

Just saying like, not a twisted dig or anything. ;):)

[NAE NOOKIE]

Lets not turn this into a debate on the pros & cons of N Ireland. Please.

Though Jack Straw's bit in the Times today might make that necessary :confused:

[allmodcons]

Been reading a variety of threads connected to the referendum on Scottish Independence as I reflect on the manner in which the ‘No’ vote carried the day last Thursday. First off, let me say that I am proud to be a Scottish Nationalist. Scottish Independence is my political raison d’etre. It has nothing to do with being anti-English or any other prejudice. For me, self-determination is about Scots having the sovereign right to decide for ourselves how our small country should be run. In my opinion, Independence is the best way for us to deal with the major issues that successive Westminster Governments have failed to adequately address in the last 40 or so years.

There are some individuals on these boards who would have us believe that the SNP don’t care about social justice and indeed have done nothing to redistribute wealth in their 7 years in power at Holyrood. To them I would say that, in the main, this is due to the Scottish Parliament having powers so limited that they do not give the Scottish Government the levers to implement truly redistributive policies. The lack of control over Tax and Welfare is without doubt a major hurdle to any Scottish Government looking to redistribute wealth. For what it’s worth, free tuition fees and mitigation of the bedroom tax are 2 very good examples of social democratic policies.

My only real issue with the current administration is the Council Tax. I will not, however, take any lessons from Mibbees Aye or ODS on this front. My understanding is that during the last by election in Scotland their 'party of the people' claimed they were the first to introduce a council tax freeze (in Glasgow) and their candidate reaffirmed Labour’s continued support of the council tax freeze! As to council tax policy, I think the SNP Government should have addressed this before now by freezing lower bands and applying an at least inflationary increase to properties in the higher bands. I know this is a bit of ‘catch all’ (i.e. – people in big houses are not always wealthy) but, by and large, think this would have been a good way to redistribute wealth within the constraints of the powers available to the SNP Government.

As to the issue of Alex Salmond, he has, without doubt, been a great leader of the SNP. But for him, the SNP would not have won the majority it secured in 2011 and the people of Scotland, for the first time in their history, would not have had sovereignty (albeit only for 1 day) placed in their own hands. According to one or two on this thread (including my old friend ODS) Salmond is a divisive politician. For you I have one question. Did you not vote for Tony Blair? For anyone of a Tory persuasion, did you not vote for Margaret Thatcher? Politics by its very nature is divisive, to suggest that because as a Scottish Nationalist Alex Salmond is more divisive than Thatcher or Blair is to not understand the nature of the beast.

As I’m sure most Unionists on here know the constitutional issue is not going to go away anytime soon. I, personally, will always make the case for Scotland to be completely Independent. In the short term, however, I hope that those who voted ‘No’ will want to ensure that their respective parties honour the ‘vow’ they made prior to the referendum. It appears to be unravelling as I write. Devo Max has been mentioned (i.e. – control over everything except Defence & Foreign Affairs). I think this would be acceptable to a large majority of Scots but, in reality, don’t see us getting any more than the dogs breakfast that is already on the table where we have the unholy alliance of Conservative, Labour and the Lib Dems each offering a different set of proposals. With, wait for it, the Labour Party (the self proclaimed party of Home Rule) offering less powers than the Conservatives!! On a final note, we have Jack Straw :0)

[One Day Soon]

Been reading a variety of threads connected to the referendum on Scottish Independence as I reflect on the manner in which the ‘No’ vote carried the day last Thursday. First off, let me say that I am proud to be a Scottish Nationalist. Scottish Independence is my political raison d’etre. It has nothing to do with being anti-English or any other prejudice. For me, self-determination is about Scots having the sovereign right to decide for ourselves how our small country should be run. In my opinion, Independence is the best way for us to deal with the major issues that successive Westminster Governments have failed to adequately address in the last 40 or so years.

There are some individuals on these boards who would have us believe that the SNP don’t care about social justice and indeed have done nothing to redistribute wealth in their 7 years in power at Holyrood. To them I would say that, in the main, this is due to the Scottish Parliament having powers so limited that they do not give the Scottish Government the levers to implement truly redistributive policies. The lack of control over Tax and Welfare is without doubt a major hurdle to any Scottish Government looking to redistribute wealth. For what it’s worth, free tuition fees and mitigation of the bedroom tax are 2 very good examples of social democratic policies.

My only real issue with the current administration is the Council Tax. I will not, however, take any lessons from Mibbees Aye or ODS on this front. My understanding is that during the last by election in Scotland their 'party of the people' claimed they were the first to introduce a council tax freeze (in Glasgow) and their candidate reaffirmed Labour’s continued support of the council tax freeze! As to council tax policy, I think the SNP Government should have addressed this before now by freezing lower bands and applying an at least inflationary increase to properties in the higher bands. I know this is a bit of ‘catch all’ (i.e. – people in big houses are not always wealthy) but, by and large, think this would have been a good way to redistribute wealth within the constraints of the powers available to the SNP Government.

As to the issue of Alex Salmond, he has, without doubt, been a great leader of the SNP. But for him, the SNP would not have won the majority it secured in 2011 and the people of Scotland, for the first time in their history, would not have had sovereignty (albeit only for 1 day) placed in their own hands. According to one or two on this thread (including my old friend ODS) Salmond is a divisive politician. For you I have one question. Did you not vote for Tony Blair? For anyone of a Tory persuasion, did you not vote for Margaret Thatcher? Politics by its very nature is divisive, to suggest that because as a Scottish Nationalist Alex Salmond is more divisive than Thatcher or Blair is to not understand the nature of the beast.

As I’m sure most Unionists on here know the constitutional issue is not going to go away anytime soon. I, personally, will always make the case for Scotland to be completely Independent. In the short term, however, I hope that those who voted ‘No’ will want to ensure that their respective parties honour the ‘vow’ they made prior to the referendum. It appears to be unravelling as I write. Devo Max has been mentioned (i.e. – control over everything except Defence & Foreign Affairs). I think this would be acceptable to a large majority of Scots but, in reality, don’t see us getting any more than the dogs breakfast that is already on the table where we have the unholy alliance of Conservative, Labour and the Lib Dems each offering a different set of proposals. With, wait for it, the Labour Party (the self proclaimed party of Home Rule) offering less powers than the Conservatives!! On a final note, we have Jack Straw :0)


I will settle for just this brief response at the moment AMC: It is good to see you with your chin up and in there swinging again. I disagree with almost, but not quite, everything you have posted above. But if that wasn't the case maybe the sky would fall down?

Stick in.

[Hibrandenburg]

You can quote who you want....but using a quote from a terrorist organisation taking credit for a deadly bombing is not something I would do personally.

If you want to quote any of the above in an attempt to relate it to a democratic vote on Scotland's future go right ahead, just don't expect everyone to share your comfort in doing so.

Yes I can quote who I want thank you and you're entitled to take it completely out of context and interpret something in it that's not there. You'll just look silly though.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes I mean how could you have possibly known that quoting the IRA on an independence from the UK thread would cause controversy? But as you have said yourself, you should have known better, so fair enough.

Feel free to use quotes from any one of the people on your list but I'm not sure they will inspire people to believe in a future iS, which I think was the intention of your original post.

Just saying like, not a twisted dig or anything. ;):)

See post above.

[over the line]

Yes I can quote who I want thank you and you're entitled to take it completely out of context and interpret something in it that's not there. You'll just look silly though.

I didn't misinterpret anything, (never once suggested you supported the IRA) I took it literally and commented on it. You used a quote from the IRA as inspiration for a future iS referendum. That is a fact, not an interpretation. I'd suggest its maybe not the best rallying cry ever, can't see it being used as a future independence poster campaign really. Now that would be silly!

[RyeSloan]

Yes I can quote who I want thank you and you're entitled to take it completely out of context and interpret something in it that's not there. You'll just look silly though.

Yup sure I would...just as well I didn't.

You used a quote from a terrorist organisation taking credit for one of the most infamous bombings in modern times, that killed 5 people, to relate to the current discussion on an independent Scotland...as I said each to their own.

[Hibrandenburg]

Inspiration? Rallying cry? Independence Poster Campaign?

:faf:

All in your imagination I'm afraid.

[over the line]

Inspiration? Rallying cry? Independence Poster Campaign?

:faf:

All in your imagination I'm afraid.

Fair do's, the rallying cry and poster bit are me being mischievous, not meant to be serious that bit. ;)

But if your original post wasn't meant to inspire a belief in a future iS referendum, what was it meant as?

[Hibrandenburg]

Yup sure I would...just as well I didn't.

You used a quote from a terrorist organisation taking credit for one of the most infamous bombings in modern times, that killed 5 people, to relate to the current discussion on an independent Scotland...as I said each to their own.

Yes you did. Are you saying that the quote is inherently evil and should be banned for evermore? If that's the case then that's just plain stupid. Or are you saying by using a famous quote that I'm somehow associated with the people who originally made it? In that case you're being completely ridiculous.

[Hibrandenburg]

Fair do's, the rallying cry and poster bit are me being mischievous, not meant to be serious that bit. ;)

But if your original post wasn't meant to inspire a belief in a future iS referendum, what was it meant as?

It was meant to emphasize the point that the strive for independence isn't over with the last referendum, it will continue and we only need to win once and it's game over, the unionists need to win it everytime to stay in the game. Nothing more and nothing less was to be read into my statement unless you were looking to do so.

[One Day Soon]

Inspiration? Rallying cry? Independence Poster Campaign?

:faf:

All in your imagination I'm afraid.


You're double posting. You're double posting.

[over the line]

It was meant to emphasize the point that the strive for independence isn't over with the last referendum, it will continue and we only need to win once and it's game over, the unionists need to win it everytime to stay in the game. Nothing more and nothing less was to be read into my statement unless you were looking to do so.

That's exactly what I thought you meant, didn't read any more into it. Just questioned the wisdom of quoting the IRA, that's all.

I think we have done this one to death now, but its kept us going for a few hour anyway. :)

[Hibrandenburg]

You're double posting. You're double posting.

It's my mobile. It's my mobile.

:greengrin :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

That's exactly what I thought you meant, didn't read any more into it. Just questioned the wisdom of quoting the IRA, that's all.

I think we have done this one to death now, but its kept us going for a few hour anyway. :)

Apology accepted :wink:




:greengrin

[over the line]

Apology accepted :wink:




:greengrin

You've got some nerve! ;):)

:D

[The_Exile]

For what it's worth Hiberlin, I can see why you quoted that particular phrase as purely the words and phrasing used is apt to this situation. People quote words and phrasing from evil sources all the time, doesn't make the actual meaning evil if used in a different context/situation.

[RyeSloan]

Yes you did. Are you saying that the quote is inherently evil and should be banned for evermore? If that's the case then that's just plain stupid. Or are you saying by using a famous quote that I'm somehow associated with the people who originally made it? In that case you're being completely ridiculous.

Read my posts again. I'm not suggesting any of the above..I even stated you were free to quote what you want so how you can infer I might have meant 'banned for evermore' is somewhat ridiculous.

Anyway I've made my point, you've made yours....

[OsloHibs]

Sunday.

I still can't believe the vote went no. sigh

[CallumLaidlaw]

Interesting statement from Tommy Sheridan tonight -

UNITY FOR INDEPENDENCE STATEMENT (PERSONAL)
Over the last couple of days I have been inundated with thousands of facebook and twitter messages from disappointed YES supporters looking for a way forward. I am encouraged so many have decided to become politically involved and stay politically engaged. Leaving politics to the politicians is a recipe for poor governance.
Obviously I welcome those wishing to join my own party Solidarity. We have some of the best activists around and can be contacted at solidarityscotland.org New members are positive. However it is not enough.
What I am about to say is uncomfortable for a socialist like me. I oppose the SNP position on NATO membership, cutting corporation taxes for big businesses, retaining the Queen as a head of State, sharing sterling and other policies. BUT in order to maximise the pro-Independence vote in next May's General Election I believe all YES supporters should vote for the SNP and all other pro-Independence parties should not stand if the SNP candidate will commit to fight for a new Referendum as soon as possible AND against all Westmonster austerity cuts to welfare and public services.
In other words I suggest we in the YES Movement promote continued unity by backing the most likely Independence supporting candidate at next May's election. In concrete terms that means advocating an SNP vote to try and unseat as many pro-NO party supporters as possible. Let's punish the reactionary and dishonest NO parties at the ballot box next May. Let's punish the shameful Labour Party in particular for siding with the Bankers,Bosses, Billionaires and Millionaires to try and crush our dream of a new and better Scotland with an avalanche of fear and lies.
The Holyrood elections in 2016 allow for more socialist, green and diverse candidates to be elected. The Westmonster system doesn't. If SNP candidates commit to fighting for a new Referendum and against austerity cuts let's unite behind them. If successful then we should insist all pro-Independence candidates in the 2016 Scottish election commit to a March 2020 Referendum. This magnificent movement for independence and change can continue and grow. We have youth, energy and hope on our side. Hope can triumph over Fear in 2020. I realise some socialists will find it difficult to support SNP candidates. That is understandable. BUT the stakes are huge now. We cannot let down the 1.6 million who defied the threats and intimidation from the rich to vote for a new and better country and world. Unity is strength. Don't let our differences weaken our cause. ‪#‎HopeOverFear‬ remains our clarion call. Tommy (My personal opinion)
PLEASE SHARE

[Hibrandenburg]

Interesting statement from Tommy Sheridan tonight -

UNITY FOR INDEPENDENCE STATEMENT (PERSONAL)
Over the last couple of days I have been inundated with thousands of facebook and twitter messages from disappointed YES supporters looking for a way forward. I am encouraged so many have decided to become politically involved and stay politically engaged. Leaving politics to the politicians is a recipe for poor governance.
Obviously I welcome those wishing to join my own party Solidarity. We have some of the best activists around and can be contacted at solidarityscotland.org New members are positive. However it is not enough.
What I am about to say is uncomfortable for a socialist like me. I oppose the SNP position on NATO membership, cutting corporation taxes for big businesses, retaining the Queen as a head of State, sharing sterling and other policies. BUT in order to maximise the pro-Independence vote in next May's General Election I believe all YES supporters should vote for the SNP and all other pro-Independence parties should not stand if the SNP candidate will commit to fight for a new Referendum as soon as possible AND against all Westmonster austerity cuts to welfare and public services.
In other words I suggest we in the YES Movement promote continued unity by backing the most likely Independence supporting candidate at next May's election. In concrete terms that means advocating an SNP vote to try and unseat as many pro-NO party supporters as possible. Let's punish the reactionary and dishonest NO parties at the ballot box next May. Let's punish the shameful Labour Party in particular for siding with the Bankers,Bosses, Billionaires and Millionaires to try and crush our dream of a new and better Scotland with an avalanche of fear and lies.
The Holyrood elections in 2016 allow for more socialist, green and diverse candidates to be elected. The Westmonster system doesn't. If SNP candidates commit to fighting for a new Referendum and against austerity cuts let's unite behind them. If successful then we should insist all pro-Independence candidates in the 2016 Scottish election commit to a March 2020 Referendum. This magnificent movement for independence and change can continue and grow. We have youth, energy and hope on our side. Hope can triumph over Fear in 2020. I realise some socialists will find it difficult to support SNP candidates. That is understandable. BUT the stakes are huge now. We cannot let down the 1.6 million who defied the threats and intimidation from the rich to vote for a new and better country and world. Unity is strength. Don't let our differences weaken our cause. ‪#‎HopeOverFear‬ remains our clarion call. Tommy (My personal opinion)
PLEASE SHARE

Wow! Incredible gesture!

[Betty Boop]

Interesting statement from Tommy Sheridan tonight -

UNITY FOR INDEPENDENCE STATEMENT (PERSONAL)
Over the last couple of days I have been inundated with thousands of facebook and twitter messages from disappointed YES supporters looking for a way forward. I am encouraged so many have decided to become politically involved and stay politically engaged. Leaving politics to the politicians is a recipe for poor governance.
Obviously I welcome those wishing to join my own party Solidarity. We have some of the best activists around and can be contacted at solidarityscotland.org New members are positive. However it is not enough.
What I am about to say is uncomfortable for a socialist like me. I oppose the SNP position on NATO membership, cutting corporation taxes for big businesses, retaining the Queen as a head of State, sharing sterling and other policies. BUT in order to maximise the pro-Independence vote in next May's General Election I believe all YES supporters should vote for the SNP and all other pro-Independence parties should not stand if the SNP candidate will commit to fight for a new Referendum as soon as possible AND against all Westmonster austerity cuts to welfare and public services.
In other words I suggest we in the YES Movement promote continued unity by backing the most likely Independence supporting candidate at next May's election. In concrete terms that means advocating an SNP vote to try and unseat as many pro-NO party supporters as possible. Let's punish the reactionary and dishonest NO parties at the ballot box next May. Let's punish the shameful Labour Party in particular for siding with the Bankers,Bosses, Billionaires and Millionaires to try and crush our dream of a new and better Scotland with an avalanche of fear and lies.
The Holyrood elections in 2016 allow for more socialist, green and diverse candidates to be elected. The Westmonster system doesn't. If SNP candidates commit to fighting for a new Referendum and against austerity cuts let's unite behind them. If successful then we should insist all pro-Independence candidates in the 2016 Scottish election commit to a March 2020 Referendum. This magnificent movement for independence and change can continue and grow. We have youth, energy and hope on our side. Hope can triumph over Fear in 2020. I realise some socialists will find it difficult to support SNP candidates. That is understandable. BUT the stakes are huge now. We cannot let down the 1.6 million who defied the threats and intimidation from the rich to vote for a new and better country and world. Unity is strength. Don't let our differences weaken our cause. ‪#‎HopeOverFear‬ remains our clarion call. Tommy (My personal opinion)
PLEASE SHARE

Deary me you've lost the plot Tommy !

[The_Exile]

Wow! Incredible gesture!

Agreed, it'll be really interesting to see the Greens and SNP's response to this. I've had about 4 texts about this from mates and family who had zero interest in politics a few months ago. People are excited and proud to be part of the Yes movement.

[#FromTheCapital]

Absolutely nuts. Everybody vote SNP because Tommy Sheridan reckons we'll get another referendum in 6 years. It simply won't happen and neither should it. We can't just keep having referendums every few years. Even Salmond reckons it's once in a generation.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i'm going to give Tommy boy the thumbs up

https://fbstatic-a.akamaihd.net/rsrc.php/v2/yu/r/ksv094IcU42.png





this time anyway :wink:

[The Harp Awakes]

Wow! Incredible gesture!

Not a big fan of Tommy or his politics but he's being pretty clever here. The no result on Thursday was supposed to kill off the likelihood of Scottish independence for at least 20 years, but if anything the energy which the yes campaign built up during the campaign seems to be continuing to grow.

If the Labour party's support in Scotland does disintegrate at the GE next year in favour of the SNP, then that could make things interesting at Westminster. 20 SNP MPs in the House of Commons could create some mischief and may even hold the balance of power if there was no overall majority:wink:

[The_Exile]

I'm with him on this, send a message. I've attached a selection of twitter comments suggesting people are starting to regret voting No, there will be many many more who are waking up with regret. The strength of feeling on this is getting bigger and stronger as the days go by.

13518

[sadtom]

Seems like some people are over reacting to someone quoting the ira.
To be fair I've always found it hypocritical and gobsmacking when citiz...sorry SUBJECTS of thee most brutal, tyrannical and murderous Empire in the history of humanity, getting all precious about 'terrorism'.
...to see ourselves as others see us'.

[over the line]

Seems like some people are over reacting to someone quoting the ira.
To be fair I've always found it hypocritical and gobsmacking when citiz...sorry SUBJECTS of thee most brutal, tyrannical and murderous Empire in the history of humanity, getting all precious about 'terrorism'.
...to see ourselves as others see us'.

Why have you written 'terrorism' ?

[The_Exile]

http://scottishreferedum.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/polling-day-18th-sept-2014-vote-rigging.html?m=1

Worth a peek, some of that is paranoia and easily explained, other bits I can't think of a logical answer. Strange how someone can look at some of this and think 'RIGGED' though :greengrin

[over the line]

http://scottishreferedum.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/polling-day-18th-sept-2014-vote-rigging.html?m=1

Worth a peek, some of that is paranoia and easily explained, other bits I can't think of a logical answer. Strange how someone can look at some of this and think 'RIGGED' though :greengrin

Do people really think it was fixed? I mean how many people would have to be in on it to make something like that work? Surely its a wind up isn't it?

[The_Exile]

Do people really think it was fixed? I mean how many people would have to be in on it to make something like that work? Surely its a wind up isn't it?

I think the page is genuine, and as you say, it would take a lot of people keeping secrets to be in on it. That picture with the ballot papers being emptied out already with elastic bands around them is the only one which puzzles me.

[Peevemor]

http://scottishreferedum.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/polling-day-18th-sept-2014-vote-rigging.html?m=1

Worth a peek, some of that is paranoia and easily explained, other bits I can't think of a logical answer. Strange how someone can look at some of this and think 'RIGGED' though :greengrin

The thing that baffles me are the voting papers coming out of the ballot boxes wrapped in elastic bands although there's probably some explanation (pre-sorted postal votes? :dunno: )

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/22/qasegu6a.jpg

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the vote was rigged, but it would have been done away from the eyes of the public and the vote counters.

I also found it extremely strange that there were no exit polls.

[The_Exile]

Actually, just saw the video of the woman taking a pile out the yes basket and sticking it underneath the big pile of no votes, what's that all about? And the guy filling in the ballot papers whilst sitting at the desk, that's a bit dodgy like!

[The Harp Awakes]

http://scottishreferedum.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/polling-day-18th-sept-2014-vote-rigging.html?m=1

Worth a peek, some of that is paranoia and easily explained, other bits I can't think of a logical answer. Strange how someone can look at some of this and think 'RIGGED' though :greengrin

Whilst the idea of a concerted rigged result is fanciful, some of those clips look suspicious and deserve an explanation.

[The_Exile]

Whilst the idea of a concerted rigged result is fanciful, some of those clips look suspicious and deserve an explanation.

Yep, few things in there don't sit right. The West Lothian turnout discrepancy was one which jumped out also, there's around 19,000 less on that sheet of paper than was actually declared. Although that pic could've been taken anywhere and by anyone who was bored and had access to a printer.

Apparently it was mentioned in the Italian media that the room in Glasgow was too big and breached international standards, think the Russians had a similar complaint?

[lucky]

I was at the count in west lothian and it was fine. My complaint was if someone wrote yes in the yes box it was counted but if no was written in the no box it was rejected as it was a double negative. These conspiracy theories are just daft. The vote was fair and open. Time to accept the result and move on together

[johnbc70]

Have we really moved onto the theory it was rigged? This thread needs moved to the 9/11 conspiracy theory thread if people really think this. Let's just ignore all the polls leading up to the referendum that shows No was in the lead in all but a few polls, but I guess they were rigged as well.

[marinello59]

Have we really moved onto the theory it was rigged? This thread needs moved to the 9/11 conspiracy theory thread if people really think this. Let's just ignore all the polls leading up to the referendum that shows No was in the lead in all but a few polls, but I guess they were rigged as well.

Give it another few days and we will be blaming Petrie.:greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Have we really moved onto the theory it was rigged? This thread needs moved to the 9/11 conspiracy theory thread if people really think this. Let's just ignore all the polls leading up to the referendum that shows No was in the lead in all but a few polls, but I guess they were rigged as well.

Don't think it was rigged but it was definitely manipulated by dirty tricks from the establishment and media biased reporting. No doubt what so ever.

[Phil D. Rolls]

http://scottishreferedum.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/polling-day-18th-sept-2014-vote-rigging.html?m=1

Worth a peek, some of that is paranoia and easily explained, other bits I can't think of a logical answer. Strange how someone can look at some of this and think 'RIGGED' though :greengrin

Lets call it Craig Thomson Syndrome.

That blog has been written by an imbecile. Hands up anybody who has ever been asked for ID at the polling station.....no me neither.

[The_Exile]

A good pal of mine was also at one of the counts, he said it would be impossible to rig something of this size, so I've come to the conclusion he was also in on it and we are no longer friends until he returns his new Aston Martin :greengrin

[NAE NOOKIE]

Even as a Yes voter I'm a bit suspicious of the count in Glasgow. I mean .... weegies who can count that high? :greengrin

[over the line]

I think the page is genuine, and as you say, it would take a lot of people keeping secrets to be in on it. That picture with the ballot papers being emptied out already with elastic bands around them is the only one which puzzles me.

I agree just can't see that many people keeping the secret really.

I know from personal experience that I am dead good at keeping secrets. It's just all the f****** I tell that can't keep it secret!!! ;):)

[Sergio sledge]

Yep, few things in there don't sit right. The West Lothian turnout discrepancy was one which jumped out also, there's around 19,000 less on that sheet of paper than was actually declared. Although that pic could've been taken anywhere and by anyone who was bored and had access to a printer.

They declared 65,682 for no, 53,342 for yes, 91 spoiled ballots. That is 119,115 votes cast out of an electorate of 138,226. The person writing that article is confusing the electorate with the actual votes cast.

They did it later on in the article too.

I can't believe some of the crackpot theories going round. I saw one which said "Margo MacDonald warned against MI5 involvement in the referendum.... now she's dead...." Apparently the fact she's dead is proof MI5 were involved.

[Phil D. Rolls]

They declared 65,682 for no, 53,342 for yes, 91 spoiled ballots. That is 119,115 votes cast out of an electorate of 138,226. The person writing that article is confusing the electorate with the actual votes cast.

They did it later on in the article too.

I can't believe some of the crackpot theories going round. I saw one which said "Margo MacDonald warned against MI5 involvement in the referendum.... now she's dead...." Apparently the fact she's dead is proof MI5 were involved.

Some of the ***** that's being suggested is unbelievably naive. Both sides were allowed to scrutinise the ballot, and there has been no suggestion that they've been unhappy.

[Bad Martini]

The ballot wasn't rigged. Too many people believe the lies and fear spread by the Westminster elite. And the vow they made thats unravelling already.... No need for mulder and scully on this one....

[over the line]

The thing that baffles me are the voting papers coming out of the ballot boxes wrapped in elastic bands although there's probably some explanation (pre-sorted postal votes? :dunno: )

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/09/22/qasegu6a.jpg

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the vote was rigged, but it would have been done away from the eyes of the public and the vote counters.

I also found it extremely strange that there were no exit polls.

Agree, as if they would do it where everyone can see. The fact that there are photos and footage of this alleged rigging makes me smile. I mean look at those women, they are obviously highly trained agents in political espionage. Or are they librarians and primary school teachers, can't tell. ;):)

[Phil D. Rolls]

Agree, as if they would do it where everyone can see. The fact that there are photos and footage of this alleged rigging makes me smile. I mean look at those women, they are obviously highly trained agents in political espionage. Or are they librarians and primary school teachers, can't tell. ;):)

The one on the right works at my local Greggs.

[NAE NOOKIE]

The one on the right works at my local Greggs.

How do you know that Greggs isn't a front for MI5?

[Phil D. Rolls]

How do you know that Greggs isn't a front for MI5?

I don't, that's why I go to Baynes. Nothing dodgy about a Fife company operating in Edinburgh.

A Geordie based cabal of Unionist running dogs, on the other hand, has to be treated with suspicion.

[over the line]

The one on the right works at my local Greggs.

Greggs: G.R.E.G.G.S.

Governmental Referendum Espionage............. still working on the rest of it, open to ideas. :)

[MyJo]

Greggs: G.R.E.G.G.S.

Governmental Referendum Espionage............. still working on the rest of it, open to ideas. :)

Government's Referendum & Election Gerrymandering Ghost Squad

[NAE NOOKIE]

Greggs: G.R.E.G.G.S.

Governmental Referendum Espionage............. still working on the rest of it, open to ideas. :)

Gagging Genuine Scots :greengrin

[over the line]

Government's Referendum & Election Gerrymandering Ghost Squad

Like it! :)

[over the line]

Gagging Genuine Scots :greengrin

Good work! :D

[JeMeSouviens]

If there's one guy* at the Beeb to emerge with any credit, it's surely Allan Little.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29300724



* also thought Robert Peston and Brian Taylor did well, the latter chronically under utilised, particularly when Nick Robinson breezed into town. :rolleyes:

[goosefat]

The ballot wasn't rigged. Too many people believe the lies and fear spread by the Westminster elite. And the vow they made thats unravelling already.... No need for mulder and scully on this one....

....Nah. The Yes campaign and their drones believed their own social media and pavement shouting hype. Even if there hadn't been a better together campaign and the 'Westminster elite' hadn't uttered a word, there would still have been a No vote.

:coffee:

[steakbake]

....Nah. The Yes campaign and their drones believed their own social media and pavement shouting hype. Even if there hadn't been a better together campaign and the 'Westminster elite' hadn't uttered a word, there would still have been a No vote.

:coffee:

No so sure about that. 200,000 votes or thereabouts would have seen it go another way. That's around a quarter of the readership of the Daily Record.

I think even some of my No voting friends thought the media were over the top.

[Mikey09]

*
....Nah. The Yes campaign and their drones believed their own social media and pavement shouting hype. Even if there hadn't been a better together campaign and the 'Westminster elite' hadn't uttered a word, there would still have been a No vote.

:coffee:


Away and W*nk worms!!! Utter rubbish!!! In my opinion... :thumbsup:

[Rasta_Hibs]

It was a No yesterday! It is a No today and it will be a No tomorrow!

[The_Exile]

It was a No yesterday! It is a No today and it will be a No tomorrow!

Not entirely sure there would be a No tomorrow. Anecdotally heard a lot of people are regretting their No votes, particularly Labour No voters.

[steakbake]

if the devo powers fall through and as the realisation grows that the pound is effectively a petrocurrency and the bargaining hand is and always was, in fact on this side of the border, then we will see where that places things in the future.

one thing is for sure though, are the no side's supporters lining up to join political parties that support independence?

next time around, I expect the pro independence side will not be so SNP heavy and will be a far wider popular movement.

the next few months are going to be very interesting, with our new powers promised by 27th March and a UKGE in May.

it took two goes to get devolution... it's not going to be easy for sure, but some form of independence/nation state is something I'll see before I'm too old to enjoy it.

[One Day Soon]

if the devo powers fall through and as the realisation grows that the pound is effectively a petrocurrency and the bargaining hand is and always was, in fact on this side of the border, then we will see where that places things in the future.

one thing is for sure though, are the no side's supporters lining up to join political parties that support independence?

next time around, I expect the pro independence side will not be so SNP heavy and will be a far wider popular movement.

the next few months are going to be very interesting, with our new powers promised by 27th March and a UKGE in May.

it took two goes to get devolution... it's not going to be easy for sure, but some form of independence/nation state is something I'll see before I'm too old to enjoy it.


I'm not sure the No supporters were lining up to wave flags, join cavalcades or even tell opinion pollsters which way they were going to vote but they still came out and voted No. So expecting hi vis activity from them now is going to lead to disappointment.

I don't think there will be a next time. If there is, Yes would likely win. Simply because the circumstances which would lead to justification and capacity for another Referendum would have to be such that it would be virtually unstoppable.

The extra powers won't fall through. It will be messy and its entirely possible the timetable may slip, but they will be delivered.

[#FromTheCapital]

Not entirely sure there would be a No tomorrow. Anecdotally heard a lot of people are regretting their No votes, particularly Labour No voters.

Have to be honest I was doubting myself in the immediate aftermath when I seen the despair caused by the no vote, it quickly subsided though. Wouldn't read too much into peoples immediate reaction. Once the dust settles I'm sure these people will remember why they voted no.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Not entirely sure there would be a No tomorrow. Anecdotally heard a lot of people are regretting their No votes, particularly Labour No voters.

Really? Regret so soon after the vote? I doubt it I expect most are happy with their vote I know I am!

People should let the process of devolved powers take its course, if this does not happen within the agreed time scale then a lot will not be happy including myself!

But right now id say the majority of Scots want no independence an i cant see that changing in my lifetime

[Gatecrasher]

Have to be honest I was doubting myself in the immediate aftermath when I seen the despair caused by the no vote, it quickly subsided though. Wouldn't read too much into peoples immediate reaction. Once the dust settles I'm sure these people will remember why they voted no.
:agree: THere was a lot of angry and upset people and I was a little sad that I played a part in causing that but I'm happy with the way I voted.

[One Day Soon]

It IS a democracy and we did have a vote after a gigantic debate. You could take a really hard line view and say that we settled what was on the ballot paper and anything else is peripheral. Not my view - and would be daft politically - but in strict ballot terms it is true.

[#FromTheCapital]

:agree: THere was a lot of angry and upset people and I was a little sad that I played a part in causing that but I'm happy with the way I voted.

Embarrasingly I even felt sorry for Alex Salmond, although his words since Friday have restored my dislike for the man :greengrin

[steakbake]

I'm not sure the No supporters were lining up to wave flags, join cavalcades or even tell opinion pollsters which way they were going to vote but they still came out and voted No. So expecting hi vis activity from them now is going to lead to disappointment.

I don't think there will be a next time. If there is, Yes would likely win. Simply because the circumstances which would lead to justification and capacity for another Referendum would have to be such that it would be virtually unstoppable.

The extra powers won't fall through. It will be messy and its entirely possible the timetable may slip, but they will be delivered.

The opinion polls were largely accurate to within 1% - not as many shy no voters.

I agree with your view though, that for it to happen etc would require unstoppable momentum.

[Gus]

Embarrasingly I even felt sorry for Alex Salmond, although his words since Friday have restored my dislike for the man :greengrin

Aye me too, I am comfortable with my vote though & every no voter I have spoken to has no regrets.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm not sure the No supporters were lining up to wave flags, join cavalcades or even tell opinion pollsters which way they were going to vote but they still came out and voted No. So expecting hi vis activity from them now is going to lead to disappointment.

I don't think there will be a next time. If there is, Yes would likely win. Simply because the circumstances which would lead to justification and capacity for another Referendum would have to be such that it would be virtually unstoppable.

The extra powers won't fall through. It will be messy and its entirely possible the timetable may slip, but they will be delivered.

And if the extra powers do fall through, who's going to hold Cameron, Clegg and Miliband responsible? Certainly not the Scottish electorate. They won't be voted out by their constituents because their constituents don't give a flying fork if they've pulled one over on the Jocks, it'll probably even be a vote winner for them. It's another example of why we needed self determination.

[One Day Soon]

The opinion polls were largely accurate to within 1% - not as many shy no voters.

I agree with your view though, that for it to happen etc would require unstoppable momentum.

Really? I thought the most they showed was an 8 point lead a few days before with most down to around 4 points on the Wednesday?

The other thing that I think was also taking place in quite large numbers was direct switching between the softest 10% or so of both Yes and No voters over the final week. I genuinely believe that the position was fluid enough that the result could have ended up anywhere between 65% - 35% No to 55% - 45% Yes.

[degenerated]

Snp now reporting 17,310 new members since Friday. That would see them well above ukip and just above lib dems in total membership numbers, which is pretty impressive going.

[Beefster]

Not entirely sure there would be a No tomorrow. Anecdotally heard a lot of people are regretting their No votes, particularly Labour No voters.

Anecdotally, before the referendum, some folk were claiming it was going to be 60-40 in favour of yes because they had spoken to a few folk on the street.

[JeMeSouviens]

Anecdotally, before the referendum, some folk were claiming it was going to be 60-40 in favour of yes because they had spoken to a few folk on the street.

:agree: Anecdotes are generally not worth the paper they aren't written on.

[degenerated]

:agree: Anecdotes are generally not worth the paper they aren't written on.
Much like a vow from the Gordon Brown, or one from the three stooges which was written on paper albeit a tawdry low brow rag.

[lord bunberry]

Really? Regret so soon after the vote? I doubt it I expect most are happy with their vote I know I am!

People should let the process of devolved powers take its course, if this does not happen within the agreed time scale then a lot will not be happy including myself!

But right now id say the majority of Scots want no independence an i cant see that changing in my lifetime
The agreed timescale is already in the bin, there will be no extra powers for Scotland before the general election. Depending who wins that election may mean no powers at all.

[allmodcons]

The extra powers won't fall through. It will be messy and its entirely possible the timetable may slip, but they will be delivered.

Of course the big question isn't when, but what will we get. I doubt even you understand the Labour Party's current offer around tax varying powers?




Really? Regret so soon after the vote? I doubt it I expect most are happy with their vote I know I am!

People should let the process of devolved powers take its course, if this does not happen within the agreed time scale then a lot will not be happy including myself!

But right now id say the majority of Scots want no independence an i cant see that changing in my lifetime

I'm praying you're a centenarian.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Snp now reporting 17,310 new members since Friday. That would see them well above ukip and just above lib dems in total membership numbers, which is pretty impressive going.

Joined this morning, though I'm not exactly a convert to the cause. I would guess that like me a fair few were already SNP supporters but hadn't been inspired to join before now.

Had to laugh .... In an STV report on 16,000 plus ( now 18,000 ) new members joining the SNP since the 18th they also said that a Scottish Labour spokesperson said that they had also seen a rise in membership, and "though they don't release figures it was in the hundreds"

[snooky]

It IS a democracy and we did have a vote after a gigantic debate. You could take a really hard line view and say that we settled what was on the ballot paper and anything else is peripheral. Not my view - and would be daft politically - but in strict ballot terms it is true.

Two schoolboys fight in the playground. One wins. They shake hands. They move on with mutual respect.
Two schoolboys fight in the playground. One wins with a low blow. They will fight again.

:coffee:

[SvenNeil]

Joined this morning, though I'm not exactly a convert to the cause. I would guess that like me a fair few were already SNP supporters but hadn't been inspired to join before now.

Me too :agree:

[marinello59]

Snp now reporting 17,310 new members since Friday. That would see them well above ukip and just above lib dems in total membership numbers, which is pretty impressive going.

The Tories must be pig sick. A flag waving centre right party finally attracts mass membership and it ain't them. :devil:

[ronaldo7]

The wee ginger dug still hitting it out the park.:aok:

http://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2014/09/22/an-open-letter-to-magrit-curran/

[ronaldo7]

Snp now reporting 17,310 new members since Friday. That would see them well above ukip and just above lib dems in total membership numbers, which is pretty impressive going.

Meanwhile over at Labour HQ.

13521

[One Day Soon]

Two schoolboys fight in the playground. One wins. They shake hands. They move on with mutual respect.
Two schoolboys fight in the playground. One wins with a low blow. They will fight again.

:coffee:


This low blow - the Vow presumably - being the one that Salmond described at the time as worthless and which he said no-one would be fooled by. Now its the entire reason why Yes lost.

Quite a lot of post-event rationalisation going on here.

Remember what the Survation guy said when all the pollsters were interviewed? No started out at around 55% at the beginning of the campaign and finished at about 55% at the end of it. So the intervening Vow - if it had any effect - took the No vote no higher than it had been previously.

The key factors in losing it for Yes were (IMO):

1. Salmond could not answer the difficult questions because he was trying to assert that everything would be all right rather than evidence it.
2. A very large proportion of people simply do not want Scotland to be a separate country.
3. A large number of voters felt that the Yes campaign was aggressive and it unsettled them.
4. A wide range of domestic and international business opinion spoke out to say that they thought the economic consequences for Scotland of separating would be very damaging.

[One Day Soon]

Meanwhile over at Labour HQ.

13521


Really? Big Yes campaign in Hornchurch and Upminster is there?

[degenerated]

The Tories must be pig sick. A flag waving centre right party finally attracts mass membership and it ain't them. :devil:
That's a sign that I'm getting old. From my radical past of protesting with AFA, ANL etc to membership of a centrist flag waving political party.
I'll be getting my record collection full of crass, conflict, subhumans, dead Kennedy's and the like taken off me next :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

That's a sign that I'm getting old. From my radical past of protesting with AFA, ANL etc to membership of a centrist flag waving political party.
I'll be getting my record collection full of crass, conflict, subhumans, dead Kennedy's and the like taken off me next :greengrin

Wot, no Exploited?

[degenerated]

Wot, no Exploited?
Plenty of that too. Toxic Ephex and the threats were my preferred Scottish bands though.

[marinello59]

That's a sign that I'm getting old. From my radical past of protesting with AFA, ANL etc to membership of a centrist flag waving political party.
I'll be getting my record collection full of crass, conflict, subhumans, dead Kennedy's and the like taken off me next :greengrin

:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Plenty of that too. Toxic Ephex and the threats were my preferred Scottish bands though.


I remember them all like a parade of the exotic every week in Sounds.

[ronaldo7]

Really? Big Yes campaign in Hornchurch and Upminster is there?

:greengrin They don't like it up em:aok:

[One Day Soon]

:greengrin They don't like it up em:aok:


Not a clue what you're trying to say there.

[ronaldo7]

Not a clue what you're trying to say there.

Not enough capital letters here for me to decipher...Sorry:wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

This low blow - the Vow presumably - being the one that Salmond described at the time as worthless and which he said no-one would be fooled by. Now its the entire reason why Yes lost.

Quite a lot of post-event rationalisation going on here.

Remember what the Survation guy said when all the pollsters were interviewed? No started out at around 55% at the beginning of the campaign and finished at about 55% at the end of it. So the intervening Vow - if it had any effect - took the No vote no higher than it had been previously.

The key factors in losing it for Yes were (IMO):

1. Salmond could not answer the difficult questions because he was trying to assert that everything would be all right rather than evidence it.
2. A very large proportion of people simply do not want Scotland to be a separate country.
3. A large number of voters felt that the Yes campaign was aggressive and it unsettled them.
4. A wide range of domestic and international business opinion spoke out to say that they thought the economic consequences for Scotland of separating would be very damaging.

The Lord Ashcroft poll proves that's not true. 25% of NO voters were swayed by the promise of more powers. Where are they? Even taking in a large margin of error that would have been enough to win it for YES. We were conned by Labour, the Tories and the Lib/Dems.

[Hibrandenburg]

This low blow - the Vow presumably - being the one that Salmond described at the time as worthless and which he said no-one would be fooled by. Now its the entire reason why Yes lost.

Quite a lot of post-event rationalisation going on here.

Remember what the Survation guy said when all the pollsters were interviewed? No started out at around 55% at the beginning of the campaign and finished at about 55% at the end of it. So the intervening Vow - if it had any effect - took the No vote no higher than it had been previously.

The key factors in losing it for Yes were (IMO):

1. Salmond could not answer the difficult questions because he was trying to assert that everything would be all right rather than evidence it.
2. A very large proportion of people simply do not want Scotland to be a separate country.
3. A large number of voters felt that the Yes campaign was aggressive and it unsettled them.
4. A wide range of domestic and international business opinion spoke out to say that they thought the economic consequences for Scotland of separating would be very damaging.

P.S. Salmond was right, they are worthless, about as worthless as the fag packet they were written on.

[One Day Soon]

The Lord Ashcroft poll proves that's not true. 25% of NO voters were swayed by the promise of more powers. Where are they? Even taking in a large margin of error that would have been enough to win it for YES. We were conned by Labour, the Tories and the Lib/Dems.


Hmm, so why were those 25% of No voters within the original 50% before the 'Vow' was made?

I take it you give no credence to any of the other factors I listed?

[One Day Soon]

P.S. Salmond was right, they are worthless, about as worthless as the fag packet they were written on.


They are worth a lot more than Salmond was promising in that a) they will be actually delivered unlike Indy and b) they won't trash our economy.

[ronaldo7]

P.S. Salmond was right, they are worthless, about as worthless as the fag packet they were written on.

I've heard the Labour party...Magrit Curran is going to visit the 10 areas who voted yes in the next wee while to engage with the people, and try to get them back onside.

They just don't get it. #The45

[Swedish hibee]

The key factors in losing it for Yes were (IMO):

1. Salmond could not answer the difficult questions because he was trying to assert that everything would be all right rather than evidence it.
2. A very large proportion of people simply do not want Scotland to be a separate country.
3. A large number of voters felt that the Yes campaign was aggressive and it unsettled them.
4. A wide range of domestic and international business opinion spoke out to say that they thought the economic consequences for Scotland of separating would be very damaging.


I agree only with no.2 Most no voters (it seems from what I've read) want to be British and are happy with the decision they made. Sadly, severe social deprivation, a huge class divide society & having nuclear weapons in their country didn't bother them.

Why would Scotland be the only country in the world to be worse off being Independent? Why would a rich country like Scotland loose money? It would have been richer than Sweden & Finland and we're not poor and can look after our people very well.

...And as for being aggressive.. You don't get change in life hiding behind your curtains doing nothing. Which is exactly what happened, isn't it.

I do not recognize the country I left behind. Thank-god I made the decision to live in a free, equal country. One of my better decision's in life!!!!!!! :agree:

[ronaldo7]

Labour's stance on the NHS over a period of 5 days.

13522

[JimBHibees]

This low blow - the Vow presumably - being the one that Salmond described at the time as worthless and which he said no-one would be fooled by. Now its the entire reason why Yes lost.

Quite a lot of post-event rationalisation going on here.

Remember what the Survation guy said when all the pollsters were interviewed? No started out at around 55% at the beginning of the campaign and finished at about 55% at the end of it. So the intervening Vow - if it had any effect - took the No vote no higher than it had been previously.

The key factors in losing it for Yes were (IMO):

1. Salmond could not answer the difficult questions because he was trying to assert that everything would be all right rather than evidence it.
2. A very large proportion of people simply do not want Scotland to be a separate country.
3. A large number of voters felt that the Yes campaign was aggressive and it unsettled them.
4. A wide range of domestic and international business opinion spoke out to say that they thought the economic consequences for Scotland of separating would be very damaging.

No mention of the totally one sided media and hugely scaremongering by big business and outlets which IMO had a huge impact on the perception of the yes campaign. Any wander into a supermarket to see some of the scandalous headlines including truly despicable ones like the Telegragh and Scottish soldiers including quite unbelievably the BBC. If your only news was from newspapers and most elderly voters that is the case so is it any wonder they voted No.

If Labour lose the next election and there is a similar biased campaign we will never hear the end of the whining. Campbell already has previous with Nick Robinson in that regard.

[degenerated]

The Tories must be pig sick. A flag waving centre right party finally attracts mass membership and it ain't them. :devil:
They will be sick, since I posted that it's now over 20,000. I wouldn't fancy being the snp membership Secretary as this rate of growth is going to keep them out of mischief for a fair while.

[RyeSloan]

No mention of the totally one sided media and hugely scaremongering by big business and outlets which IMO had a huge impact on the perception of the yes campaign. Any wander into a supermarket to see some of the scandalous headlines including truly despicable ones like the Telegragh and Scottish soldiers including quite unbelievably the BBC. If your only news was from newspapers and most elderly voters that is the case so is it any wonder they voted No. If Labour lose the next election and there is a similar biased campaign we will never hear the end of the whining. Campbell already has previous with Nick Robinson in that regard.

All factors would have had a factor I agree ;-)

However it often makes sense to look at things in a different perspective...maybe the 'scaremongering' from big business was a direct result of Salmond being unable to dispel the huge uncertainty his plans would have created? If Yes could have answered those concerns with credible answers then there would have been no room for the scare stories.

The fact remains that the route to Salmond's version of independence was unclear and based on nothing rather more than assumptions (currency union, EU membership)....I honestly believe it was that that resulted in the no vote.

If there is to be a future referendum I truly hope that lesson is learned so more people can feel they can support it, focusing the blame on the no campaign (which was pretty abysmal let's be honest) is looking in the wrong place for the wrong answers I would suggest.

[stoneyburn hibs]

They are worth a lot more than Salmond was promising in that a) they will be actually delivered unlike Indy and b) they won't trash our economy.

What will be delivered ?

[marinello59]

I've heard the Labour party...Magrit Curran is going to visit the 10 areas who voted yes in the next wee while to engage with the people, and try to get them back onside.

They just don't get it. #The45

Just been watching the conference report and they really are all over the place with it. They obviously thought a No vote would mean case closed so now they just don't have a clue what to do.