Scottish Independence

[BarneyK]

I prefer this level of debate. :greengrin


https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/10407418_659574130784543_5875900476193489014_n.png

:greengrin

[sauzee_4]

It is valid IMO to call into question the SNP's refusal to elaborate on start-up costs but to do so at the expense of this remarkable skewing of the figures by the treasury is laughable.

Agreed, the SNP should have been far more forthright and 'louder' regarding costs. I believe Alex Salmond said months ago it would be £250 million so he should have been more forceful in putting that across.

Good that Dunleavy says immediate costs would be even less though.

Balance sheet looks pretty good to me:

Cost of independence: £200 million (possibly more if the UK are hostile)

Savings from Independence:
Trident: £250 million Per year
HS2 Costs: £4.6 billion
Wars: £Millions per year

[DaveF]

Maybe so but if an Admin would hurry up and get back to me in regards to deleting my account you wouldn't have to read it anymore.

Look mate, we don't delete accounts. We can ban you if you like or, get this, you can simply stop logging on.

[yeezus.]

Look mate, we don't delete accounts. We can ban you if you like or, get this, you can simply stop logging on.

Well thanks "mate" but I'm already in touch with an other Admin regarding the issue.

[tcm1875]

Maybe so but if an Admin would hurry up and get back to me in regards to deleting my account you wouldn't have to read it anymore.

I like reading it, it confirms my decision on what way to vote....... :wink:

[Bristolhibby]

Article written by our very own Irvine Welsh.

Pretty much sums up my attitude on life, and why Independence means so much to me as an English based Scot.

What an opportunity to rock politics to its very foundations!

http://www.standard....in-9559111.html

J

[yeezus.]

I like reading it, it confirms my decision on what way to vote....... :wink:

Well I'm glad I could be of some use to you :)

[steakbake]

Darling pulls out of the debate because Salmond was able to pick the timing.

Surely anyone with balls (not just Ed Balls) with a firm view and a decent argument would give Salmond a go any day of the week, whether it's of his choosing or not.

Running scared. How will he defend it apart from sour grapes that he couldn't pick the date? It's not like he can argue that he's got more important priorities going on...

[Moulin Yarns]

Here is a wee thought.

Better together tel us that if Scotland gets rid of Trident we would find it difficult to get into NATO without nuclear weapons, if Scotland gets independence, and keeps Trident, will NATO throw the rest of the UK out because they wouldn't have nuclear weapons?
:confused:

[JimBHibees]

Irvines piece from The Standard

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/irvine-welsh-the-scots-poll-can-give-hope-to-the-left-across-britain-9559111.html

Cracking article. :thumbsup:

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28020174

Can we afford to vote no? Can we afford not to vote yes? :confused:

[Beefster]

Here is a wee thought.

Better together tel us that if Scotland gets rid of Trident we would find it difficult to get into NATO without nuclear weapons, if Scotland gets independence, and keeps Trident, will NATO throw the rest of the UK out because they wouldn't have nuclear weapons?
:confused:

http://trinities.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/not-sure-if-serious.jpg

[hibsbollah]

Article written by our very own Irvine Welsh.

Pretty much sums up my attitude on life, and why Independence means so much to me as an English based Scot.

What an opportunity to rock politics to its very foundations!

http://www.standard....in-9559111.html

J

It is surprisingly well written and well thought out. Irvine doesnt always give his full attention to what he's writing, but thats pretty much bang on. My only gripe is his contention that a Yes vote would cast 'public school elites' to history; we have plenty of that kind of elitism of our own, even if Mr Welsh spends so much of his time in Chicago Miami and Amsterdam to notice :greengrin...but otherwise, extremely perceptive.

[Moulin Yarns]

I see the Isle of Man, who incidentally uses the £ , has more influence on the UK than Scotland as it tells Better Together to remove the island from a map of the UK.

[Stonewall]

It is surprisingly well written and well thought out. Irvine doesnt always give his full attention to what he's writing, but thats pretty much bang on. My only gripe is his contention that a Yes vote would cast 'public school elites' to history; we have plenty of that kind of elitism of our own, even if Mr Welsh spends so much of his time in Chicago Miami and Amsterdam to notice :greengrin...but otherwise, extremely perceptive.

Better add in the costs of putting all the private school boys through through the state system then.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Better add in the costs of putting all the private school boys through through the state system then.

Damn, I thought the plan was just to shoot them.

[Hibrandenburg]

Damn, I thought the plan was just to shoot them.

That would be a vote winner!

[Phil D. Rolls]

That would be a vote winner!

Beats the Commonwealth Games.

[Bristolhibby]

It is surprisingly well written and well thought out. Irvine doesnt always give his full attention to what he's writing, but thats pretty much bang on. My only gripe is his contention that a Yes vote would cast 'public school elites' to history; we have plenty of that kind of elitism of our own, even if Mr Welsh spends so much of his time in Chicago Miami and Amsterdam to notice :greengrin...but otherwise, extremely perceptive.

Was having this debate with a mate of mine on Facebook who is basically an Anarchist who lives in a squat in London. He asks once we have got rid of the established elite, whats to stop an new elite filling the void.
Frankly a shock to the status quo is a start and then its up to the Scottish people to decide. Getting rid of the House of Lords and a written constitution is a start.

Too good an opportunity to miss IMO.

Otherwise we just have another generation of being slaves to the global system.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

Union declares in favour of Independence

http://www.yesscotland.net/news/major-boost-unison-representatives-sign-declaration-support-independence

About the only sensible thing Unison has done

[Bristolhibby]

Union declares in favour of Independence

http://www.yesscotland.net/news/major-boost-unison-representatives-sign-declaration-support-independence

About the only sensible thing Unison has done

More good news!

J

[Phil D. Rolls]

Was having this debate with a mate of mine on Facebook who is basically an Anarchist who lives in a squat in London. He asks once we have got rid of the established elite, whats to stop an new elite filling the void.
Frankly a shock to the status quo is a start and then its up to the Scottish people to decide. Getting rid of the House of Lords and a written constitution is a start.

Too good an opportunity to miss IMO.

Otherwise we just have another generation of being slaves to the global system.

J

I think we should wait to hear what our new bosses in China have to say before getting too far ahead of ourselves.

[JeMeSouviens]

Scare stories from yesteryear ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/politics97/news/08/0808/hague.shtml


The Chairman of the Scottish Tories, Raymond Robertson, warned on Friday that a devolved Scottish parliament could cost Scots nearly £1,600 in taxes

I suppose we should be glad it's only £1400 they're trying to spook us with this time. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28053031

Ed Milliband wants border controls built because immigrants will flood over the border.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28035260

number of Scots heading south lowest in decade.


#coudnaemakeitup

[Phil D. Rolls]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28053031

Ed Milliband wants border controls built because immigrants will flood over the border.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28035260

number of Scots heading south lowest in decade.


#coudnaemakeitup

As opposed to flooding over the border from Ireland? Is there anybody falling for this stuff?

[WindyMiller]

As opposed to flooding over the border from Ireland? Is there anybody falling for this stuff?


There will be plenty of folk that will take this at face value, unfortunately, FR.

[Betty Boop]

[QUOTE=Golden Fleece;4078367]Union declares in favour of Independence

http://www.yesscotland.net/news/major-boost-unison-representatives-sign-declaration-support-independence

About the only sensible thing Unison has done[/QUOTE

I'm sorry but you're wrong Unison has not come out in favour of Independence. I was at the Brighton conference last week and Unison has taken a neutral stance.

[hibsbollah]

[QUOTE=Golden Fleece;4078367]Union declares in favour of Independence

http://www.yesscotland.net/news/major-boost-unison-representatives-sign-declaration-support-independence

About the only sensible thing Unison has done[/QUOTE

I'm sorry but you're wrong Unison has not come out in favour of Independence. I was at the Brighton conference last week and Unison has taken a neutral stance.

Was there any discussion as to why Unison is still affiliated to Labour?

[Moulin Yarns]

[QUOTE=Golden Fleece;4078367]Union declares in favour of Independence

http://www.yesscotland.net/news/major-boost-unison-representatives-sign-declaration-support-independence

About the only sensible thing Unison has done[/QUOTE

I'm sorry but you're wrong Unison has not come out in favour of Independence. I was at the Brighton conference last week and Unison has taken a neutral stance.

the signatories are Unison Scottish officials

[Beefster]

the signatories are Unison Scottish officials

You said Unison had come out in favour of independence. They haven't.

[Future17]

As opposed to flooding over the border from Ireland? Is there anybody falling for this stuff?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28053031

Ed Milliband wants border controls built because immigrants will flood over the border.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28035260

number of Scots heading south lowest in decade.


#coudnaemakeitup

Was Milliband's suggestion not in reply to a hypothetical scenario in which Scotland, as a country which currently needs immigration, had a much more lax immigration policy than rUK - the fear being that people wanting to live in rUK would use Scotland as a gateway?

Seemed reasonable to me.


You said Unison had come out in favour of independence. They haven't.

As I understand it, Unison are neutral but have stated that their local membership organisations would make their own decisions. Could be interesting if they decide to start actively campaigning (i.e. leaflets, rallies etc.)

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm sure that Better Together will be apalled that someone has been accused of threatening to kill Salmond.

[Betty Boop]

[QUOTE=Betty Boop;4078703]

Was there any discussion as to why Unison is still affiliated to Labour?

Yea plenty among activists.

[Betty Boop]

[QUOTE=Betty Boop;4078703]

the signatories are Unison Scottish officials

Unison as a Union have taken a neutral stance on Independence, and quite rightly so.

[Beefster]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28079812

More evidence of the positive campaign.

[sauzee_4]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28079812

More evidence of the positive campaign.

http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/repcard1e.pdf

An interesting read. 'The strength and security of being part of something bigger' places us at 22nd in the Child Poverty league, behind Sweden, Norway, Finland, Belguim and Luxembourg who make up the top 5.

So we are not 'safer' via being in the UK, not 'wealthier' via being in the UK, not 'happier' by being in the UK and not lower on child poverty either.

Time to take control.

[southfieldhibby]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28079812

More evidence of the positive campaign.
Looking at twitter, looks like at least a couple of thousand.. Not 350

[Hibs Class]

Looking at twitter, looks like at least a couple of thousand.. Not 350

Has there ever been an accepted-by-all-sides turnout figure for any protest/demo event in this country? Seems that organisers always claim a very high figure, whilst the Police claim a much lower figure, and it just leads to yet another spurious argument.

[Just Alf]

now we know what we can replace Trident with (jobs wise) in west Scotland

http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/politics/tories-blocked-oil-boom-in-the-clyde-heseltine-admits-1.446273

[southfieldhibby]

I know there's been alot of comment over the months about cybernats and how mean and nasty they can be, so if the spirit of fairness I see cybernaws are doing their best to level the field of bawbaggery.

comparisons made of young members of the yes movement to the hitler youth by Labour candidates or No activists using pictures of Salmond for 'Yes for Sex Offenders' groups.

So, a wee bit less of the moral high ground for those campaigning for the union, aye?

[sauzee_4]

Reported on the news today that in Scotland, 14th richest nation on the planet, 1st July 2014, 1 million people (almost 1 fifth of the population) are living in poverty.

2 questions.

Is this acceptable?

And do you trust Miliband, Cameron, Clegg, or (god forbid) UKIP to fix it?

It's time to take control.

[allmodcons]

I know there's been alot of comment over the months about cybernats and how mean and nasty they can be, so if the spirit of fairness I see cybernaws are doing their best to level the field of bawbaggery.

comparisons made of young members of the yes movement to the hitler youth by Labour candidates or No activists using pictures of Salmond for 'Yes for Sex Offenders' groups.

So, a wee bit less of the moral high ground for those campaigning for the union, aye?

The difference here is that this is a Labour Westminster Parliamentary candidate who was only recently selected and has now resigned :wink:

Selected only 24 hours before resigning!!! That must be a record for a 'Politician'.

Speaks volumes of the Labour Party selection process that they were able to spot a winner like Kathy Wiles :o)

Check out some of her quotes, beyond believe.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/labour-candidate-quits-after-comparing-pro-indy-kids-to-hitler-youth.1404217014

[allmodcons]

We are without doubt Better Together and the UK is OK (for some).

Generous George says if you've got £15000 to spare you can throw it in a tax free cash ISA but, in doing so, conveniently forgets to support those who don't have £15 to spare.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28106456

[speedy_gonzales]

Reported on the news today that in Scotland, 14th richest nation on the planet, 1st July 2014, 1 million people (almost 1 fifth of the population) are living in poverty.
What is poverty though? I'm personally tired of poverty being an equation based on what you have compared to what somebody else has. Most poverty figures are based on household income compared to national averages,,,our income is compared to a UK average which includes London which is frankly ridiculous as I don't know anyone living in Scotland that earns money like some acquaintances I have that live and work in London.
To say that there are 1 million impoverished persons in this country because they only get a %age of what some minted Russian oligarch based in London declares he earns is an insult to the genuine impoverished peoples around the world.
I'm not denying there is a massive divide in our society and the riches are not shared evenly or with merit but I'm not seeing the Scotland a lot of people are describing, and that is from someone who's family comes from Mayfield and has been brought up in Wester Hailes, Oxgangs & Leith,,,also had a wee stint in Gorgie but no mercy parcels from the UN were required.

[RyeSloan]

We are without doubt Better Together and the UK is OK (for some). Generous George says if you've got £15000 to spare you can throw it in a tax free cash ISA but, in doing so, conveniently forgets to support those who don't have £15 to spare. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28106456

I'm no expert but if relative poverty is taken as a percentage of the average wage then surely there will always be relative poverty? It would seem mathematically impossible to have everyone above or at an average figure (or percentage of that average).

Surely there is a better scale from which such things can be derived...a 'standard of living index' or the like that would show an estimate of what people needed to have in order to achieve a n accepted fundamental level of existence.

A quick list might be basic but sounding housing, enough food to meet basic daily calorie requirement, clothing (probably more than the two pairs of jeans and tshirts that I somehow seem to spend most of my life in!!) etc.

Not doubting these figures, just struggling to understand what they actually mean.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm no expert but if relative poverty is taken as a percentage of the average wage then surely there will always be relative poverty? It would seem mathematically impossible to have everyone above or at an average figure (or percentage of that average).


With maths like that, you've given up your right to express an opinion on anything further in this thread involving numbers! :wink:

(Say you have 10 people earning in a range £20000 to £40000 with median £25000. They all earn >= 80% of the median. Expand for a larger dataset and whatever arbitrary %age.)

[sauzee_4]

What is poverty though? I'm personally tired of poverty being an equation based on what you have compared to what somebody else has. Most poverty figures are based on household income compared to national averages,,,our income is compared to a UK average which includes London which is frankly ridiculous as I don't know anyone living in Scotland that earns money like some acquaintances I have that live and work in London.
To say that there are 1 million impoverished persons in this country because they only get a %age of what some minted Russian oligarch based in London declares he earns is an insult to the genuine impoverished peoples around the world.
I'm not denying there is a massive divide in our society and the riches are not shared evenly or with merit but I'm not seeing the Scotland a lot of people are describing, and that is from someone who's family comes from Mayfield and has been brought up in Wester Hailes, Oxgangs & Leith,,,also had a wee stint in Gorgie but no mercy parcels from the UN were required.

Yeah think you're points there are fair speedy. Theres poverty and then there's starving kids in Africa poverty.

My point was more, we are lagging behind many European countries in the 'income equality' stakes and I don't see any sign of that changing under Westminster rule.

[Moulin Yarns]

Sir Tom Hunter has a very good point

http://scotlandseptember18.com/as-published-in-the-sunday-times-referendum-supplement/

How much, exactly, will Independence cost?

and

What is guaranteed in the event of a no vote?



Without these questions being answered there is still uncertainty.

Should it come down to cost?

Is it a monitary value of how much an independent Scotland would be in debt versus the longer term subjugation under Westminster rule?

[JeMeSouviens]

Sir Tom Hunter has a very good point

http://scotlandseptember18.com/as-published-in-the-sunday-times-referendum-supplement/

How much, exactly, will Independence cost?

and

What is guaranteed in the event of a no vote?



Without these questions being answered there is still uncertainty.

Should it come down to cost?

Is it a monitary value of how much an independent Scotland would be in debt versus the longer term subjugation under Westminster rule?


The startup cost is (imo) a bit of a red herring. Say it's £0.5bn, that's less then a short tram line.

Even at £1.5bn, which is almost certainly a huge overestimate, it's a hell of a lot less than our share of the £130bn trident replacement we'll get if we stay in the UK.

The policies pursued by the governments under either political structure will have just as much influence on our finances than the shape of that structure.

[JeMeSouviens]

What is guaranteed in the event of a no vote?


Absolutely nothing.

Just like ...

David Cameron's "cast-iron guarantee" on a Lisbon treaty referendum.

Nick Clegg's signed pledge on tuition fees.

New Labour's "ethical" foreign policy.

Labour's policy is extremely timid, logically incoherent (raise tax rates, but not cut them, wtf?) and that's just after compromising with Scottish MPs within "Scottish" Labour, how much will survive in a UK manifesto? Next to f all would be my wild guess. :rolleyes:

Similarly the Tories, it's all very well having Lord Strathclyde's pamphlet promising to consider things. I think it's an extremely safe bet that once they've considered it, the UK Tory party, their Westminster parliamentary party and their Tory lordships will soon have it cut down to irrelevant. :rolleyes:

... and the Lib Dems, with a noble history of supporting home rule and some genuinely interesting proposals ... are a totally unelectable, Tory propping irrelevance.

[Beefster]

An attempt to explain recent polls.

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/01/why-do-polls-scotland-vary-so-much/

[sauzee_4]

Sir Tom Hunter has a very good point

http://scotlandseptember18.com/as-published-in-the-sunday-times-referendum-supplement/

How much, exactly, will Independence cost?

and

What is guaranteed in the event of a no vote?



Without these questions being answered there is still uncertainty.

Should it come down to cost?

Is it a monitary value of how much an independent Scotland would be in debt versus the longer term subjugation under Westminster rule?

Not about money in my view and nor should it be. The parliament has proven if Scots get to make the decisions, we usually make the right ones. So why shouldnt we have control of defence, the economy, welfare etc.

Given the information we have it's impossible to base your decision on 'how good the economy will be' in my view

[Moulin Yarns]

here are two very well written articles for people who are undecided.

In the event of a no vote in September, consider this.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/01/eu-referendum-next-election-tory-plans

the view from a Canadian

http://www.globalresearch.ca/scotlands-independence-from-the-united-kingdom-what-happens-to-england/5389169

[SHODAN]

The difference here is that this is a Labour Westminster Parliamentary candidate who was only recently selected and has now resigned :wink:

Selected only 24 hours before resigning!!! That must be a record for a 'Politician'.

Speaks volumes of the Labour Party selection process that they were able to spot a winner like Kathy Wiles :o)

Check out some of her quotes, beyond believe.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/labour-candidate-quits-after-comparing-pro-indy-kids-to-hitler-youth.1404217014


If a Labour candidate had came out with that kind of tripe 20 years ago they'd have hell to pay.

Disgusting. So glad I left the party reading **** like that.

[JeMeSouviens]

An attempt to explain recent polls.

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/01/why-do-polls-scotland-vary-so-much/

Typical Kellner bullishness, "I'm right and everyone else is wrong". It's an interesting take, but I would add a large pinch of salt. The notion that the SNP vote was somehow "borrowed" in 2011 from where it was at the 2010 UK GE seems upside down to me. I think it's more likely that people voted tactically in 2010 to keep the Tories out in FPTP constituencies when the SNP was irrelevant to the overall result, then gave their "true" votes in 2011 when it was a more or less straight Lab-SNP fight.

YouGov's credibility ain't great in Scottish polling either. They had the last poll out in 2011, the day before the election, with a list vote SNP lead of +3. Actual result was SNP +18.

[JeMeSouviens]

An attempt to explain recent polls.

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/07/01/why-do-polls-scotland-vary-so-much/

Survation's (pretty robust) response:

http://survation.com/response-to-yesterdays-times-yougov-articles-and-yougovs-published-research-about-survations-scottish-independence-methodology/

[Moulin Yarns]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t1.0-9/10524357_825452927465619_2086786939793972579_n.png

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10945216/Nigel-Farage-to-stage-anti-independence-rally-days-before-Scottish-referendum.html

Now it is official we can see the no thankers try and distance themselves from the latest public figure to come out and beg Scots to remain in the UK (but out of Europe)

[ronaldo7]

Nice piece on the BBC bias from Sara Sheridan.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sara-sheridan/bbc-bias_b_5546493.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

[Future17]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10945216/Nigel-Farage-to-stage-anti-independence-rally-days-before-Scottish-referendum.html

Now it is official we can see the no thankers try and distance themselves from the latest public figure to come out and beg Scots to remain in the UK (but out of Europe)

Yet to register as campaigners...

[danhibees1875]

Not sure if this has been covered before.

How did it come about that Scottish people receive free prescriptions and university education? Is this something that we get differently for a reason?

Where would an iScotland stand on being able to continue to deliver these benefits?

[Moulin Yarns]

Yet to register as campaigners...

They might not be registered, but quoting from the article they most certainly are campaigning

Mr Coburn called Ukip the "only Unionist party left" and said it had already begun campaigning against independence since his election victory in May.
"Our people have been out on the streets collecting signatures, rallying support for the cause, handing out leaflets," Mr Coburn said.
"We're going to be doing a lot more of that. We're going to have hit squads going to various towns all over Scotland and persuading them of the righteousness of our cause."

[Betty Boop]

Not sure if this has been covered before.

How did it come about that Scottish people receive free prescriptions and university education? Is this something that we get differently for a reason?

Where would an iScotland stand on being able to continue to deliver these benefits?

Health and education are devolved matters.

[sauzee_4]

Not sure if this has been covered before.

How did it come about that Scottish people receive free prescriptions and university education? Is this something that we get differently for a reason?

Where would an iScotland stand on being able to continue to deliver these benefits?

Scottish people recieve those benefits because the politicians we've chosen to represent us have implemented them. It highlights the benefits of having decisions made in scotland, for scotland, by scotland.

On affording them, we currently afford them despite sending a higher percentage of Taxes down to Westminster than we receive back in spending (generally- I think there was 1 year recently where this was not the case).

So if we were able to keep all that cash here instead of only receiving some of it back then I can't see an issue affording it.

That said both Scotland and the UK are running at a deficit so reductions in spending will continue whether it's a Yes or a no. (I think)

[Moulin Yarns]

Scottish people recieve those benefits because the politicians we've chosen to represent us have implemented them. It highlights the benefits of having decisions made in scotland, for scotland, by scotland.

On affording them, we currently afford them despite sending a higher percentage of Taxes down to Westminster than we receive back in spending (generally- I think there was 1 year recently where this was not the case).

So if we were able to keep all that cash here instead of only receiving some of it back then I can't see an issue affording it.

That said both Scotland and the UK are running at a deficit so reductions in spending will continue whether it's a Yes or a no. (I think)

While not everything is FACT, it gives a well educated and informed opinion of the most likely scenario. A really good read, and might be worth giving to any waverers out there.

http://theconversation.com/an-independent-scotland-would-have-a-stronger-economy-than-you-might-think-27845

[Betty Boop]

Scotland For Richer or Poorer with Robert Peston just started on BBC 2.

[over the line]

Being Scottish but having spent the vast majority of my life exiled in the north west of England, I like to think I have a reasonably balanced view from the outside of it all? I really, really hope most of you vote NO! I get the whole national pride thing and the hate of the English, but a yes vote just doesn't make sence to me. Most of the north of England isn't governed by who they vote for and Scotland gets treated better by Westminster than the north of England does. Scotland isn't Norway and never will be, don't believe the Yes vote nonsense. Please stay part of Great Britain!

[over the line]

While not everything is FACT, it gives a well educated and informed opinion of the most likely scenario. A really good read, and might be worth giving to any waverers out there.

http://theconversation.com/an-independent-scotland-would-have-a-stronger-economy-than-you-might-think-27845

Will have a look but I'm a defo NO at moment.

[sauzee_4]

Being Scottish but having spent the vast majority of my life exiled in the north west of England, I like to think I have a reasonably balanced view from the outside of it all? I really, really hope most of you vote NO! I get the whole national pride thing and the hate of the English, but a yes vote just doesn't make sence to me. Most of the north of England isn't governed by who they vote for and Scotland gets treated better by Westminster than the north of England does. Scotland isn't Norway and never will be, don't believe the Yes vote nonsense. Please stay part of Great Britain!

I respect your views Eport Hibby but I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here completely. Voting Yes is not an anti-English move. It is a chance to have full control of our own affairs.

An independent Scotland is more likely to be everything I want my country to be:
A written constitution
Proportional representation
Nuclear disarmament
And removal of the monarchy (eventually)

And who says we can 'never be Norway'? With an attitude like that possibly not, but do I believe we can be as affluent and as HAPPY as they are in time? Absolutely.

[snooky]

Being Scottish but having spent the vast majority of my life exiled in the north west of England, I like to think I have a reasonably balanced view from the outside of it all? I really, really hope most of you vote NO! I get the whole national pride thing and the hate of the English, but a yes vote just doesn't make sence to me. Most of the north of England isn't governed by who they vote for and Scotland gets treated better by Westminster than the north of England does. Scotland isn't Norway and never will be, don't believe the Yes vote nonsense. Please stay part of Great Britain!

You're probably right on that point and that's why I think we should move the border down to the Wear and take the Geordies and the Makems with us - as far away from those spoiled Eton schoolboys as possible.

[over the line]

I respect your views Eport Hibby but I think you've got the wrong end of the stick here completely. Voting Yes is not an anti-English move. It is a chance to have full control of our own affairs.

An independent Scotland is more likely to be everything I want my country to be:
A written constitution
Proportional representation
Nuclear disarmament
And removal of the monarchy (eventually)

And who says we can 'never be Norway'? With an attitude like that possibly not, but do I believe we can be as affluent and as HAPPY as they are in time? Absolutely.

Yeh ok maybe your right and I certainly admire your positivity and faith etc. Now of course there is a "but": There are soooo many reasons why we can't be Norway and you are right in saying attitude is one. We are just very different in so many ways, you must see that? I think the whole "look at Norway and Switzerland" thing is a complete red herring (sorry!) anyway, it is irrelevant how affluent they are. You can just as easily do comparisons to similar sized countries that have got it all wrong (ROI for example, or Costa Rica but we would swap national teams with them at the moment, right?). Just because these places exist and they have done well or not doesn't mean anything really. Plus politicians are all lying sharks who won't really deliver what they promise where ever they are from and what ever their accent. Jaded view I know but a realistic one.

But you know, I may be very wrong, I have been plenty of times in the past!?!?!?

[danhibees1875]

Scottish people recieve those benefits because the politicians we've chosen to represent us have implemented them. It highlights the benefits of having decisions made in scotland, for scotland, by scotland.

On affording them, we currently afford them despite sending a higher percentage of Taxes down to Westminster than we receive back in spending (generally- I think there was 1 year recently where this was not the case).

So if we were able to keep all that cash here instead of only receiving some of it back then I can't see an issue affording it.

That said both Scotland and the UK are running at a deficit so reductions in spending will continue whether it's a Yes or a no. (I think)

Thanks for the reply sauzee.

I'm curious, do you have any source for Scotland sending more money in than we receive out from the government? Its something I've tried to find in the past with no luck.

[speedy_gonzales]

Thanks for the reply sauzee.

I'm curious, do you have any source for Scotland sending more money in than we receive out from the government? Its something I've tried to find in the past with no luck.Quite simply we don't! The percentage value of tax we pay is greater than the percentage value of national funding we receive back, BUT, the actual value of funds received is greater than what is paid in tax.

Scotland generated 9.9% of tax revenue but received ‘only’ 9.3% of revenue.

From the same GERS report,
- 9.3% of spending is £64.4 billion
- 9.9% of tax revenue is £56.8 billion

[over the line]

Quite simply we don't! The percentage value of tax we pay is greater than the percentage value of national funding we receive back, BUT, the actual value of funds received is greater than what is paid in tax.

Scotland generated 9.9% of tax revenue but received ‘only’ 9.3% of revenue.

From the same GERS report,
- 9.3% of spending is £64.4 billion
- 9.9% of tax revenue is £56.8 billion

Does this figure take into account things like paying for the armed forces, paying into the EU, settling the national debt and other such national costs?

[tcm1875]

Yeh ok maybe your right and I certainly admire your positivity and faith etc. Now of course there is a "but": There are soooo many reasons why we can't be Norway and you are right in saying attitude is one. We are just very different in so many ways, you must see that? I think the whole "look at Norway and Switzerland" thing is a complete red herring (sorry!) anyway, it is irrelevant how affluent they are. You can just as easily do comparisons to similar sized countries that have got it all wrong (ROI for example, or Costa Rica but we would swap national teams with them at the moment, right?). Just because these places exist and they have done well or not doesn't mean anything really. Plus politicians are all lying sharks who won't really deliver what they promise where ever they are from and what ever their accent. Jaded view I know but a realistic one.

But you know, I may be very wrong, I have been plenty of times in the past!?!?!?

If politicians are all lying sharks then we have a chance to get rid of hundreds of them....... 😉

[tcm1875]

Does this figure take into account things like paying for the armed forces, paying into the EU, settling the national debt and other such national costs?

In regards to defence.......

https://www.rusi.org/news/ref:N507BDE949F81D/#.U7uZTUu9LCQ

[JeMeSouviens]

Quite simply we don't! The percentage value of tax we pay is greater than the percentage value of national funding we receive back, BUT, the actual value of funds received is greater than what is paid in tax.

Scotland generated 9.9% of tax revenue but received ‘only’ 9.3% of revenue.

From the same GERS report,
- 9.3% of spending is £64.4 billion
- 9.9% of tax revenue is £56.8 billion

This is what's known as "the deficit". You might have heard of it? :wink:

Scotland's has been on average smaller than the UK-as-a-whole's over the past few years, albeit our fiscal position is propped up by a much larger share of oil & gas revenue.

Speaking of which, the Sunday Times (paywalled) had a very revealing piece where Professor Sir Donald Mackay was interviewed about future oil receipts. Key quote:


“there is no hole in the Scottish government’s oil predictions, but there is a mountain of black gold missing from (the UK Government’s).”


So, the "independent" OBR might just be cooking the books in a NO-ish direction, who would ever have thought that? :rolleyes:

Prof Mackay is on the board of Reform Scotland (the Devo-plus think tank) so unlikely to be overly SNP-friendly. He's also been a director of an oil operating company. A Yes-ish slant on the piece here:

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/professor-westminster-is-ignoring-a-mountain-of-black-gold/

[JeMeSouviens]

Yeh ok maybe your right and I certainly admire your positivity and faith etc. Now of course there is a "but": There are soooo many reasons why we can't be Norway and you are right in saying attitude is one. We are just very different in so many ways, you must see that? I think the whole "look at Norway and Switzerland" thing is a complete red herring (sorry!) anyway, it is irrelevant how affluent they are. You can just as easily do comparisons to similar sized countries that have got it all wrong (ROI for example, or Costa Rica but we would swap national teams with them at the moment, right?). Just because these places exist and they have done well or not doesn't mean anything really. Plus politicians are all lying sharks who won't really deliver what they promise where ever they are from and what ever their accent. Jaded view I know but a realistic one.

But you know, I may be very wrong, I have been plenty of times in the past!?!?!?

The RoI went through a spectacular boom/bust but actually has recovered well and has maintained a better economic performance as measured by GDP per capita than the UK throughout. By that measure, which makes Scotland the 14th richest country in the world, Ireland is 7th and the UK 18th.

Considering where Ireland came from since independence: a backward rural economy recovering from fighting a war of independence and then immediately embarking on a bitter civil war, its economic performance versus Scotland's (at the same time one of the world's leading industrial centres) has been nothing short of stellar.

Maybe there's something to be said for this wacky notion of a country running its own affairs? I'm not aware of anyone in the R of Ireland seeking reunification? :wink:

[sauzee_4]

Quite simply we don't! The percentage value of tax we pay is greater than the percentage value of national funding we receive back, BUT, the actual value of funds received is greater than what is paid in tax.

Scotland generated 9.9% of tax revenue but received ‘only’ 9.3% of revenue.

From the same GERS report,
- 9.3% of spending is £64.4 billion
- 9.9% of tax revenue is £56.8 billion

Correct. Scotland raised 9.9% of all UK taxes that year. And received 9.3% of it's public spending.

The 'spending' figure is higher because the UK is spending more than it brings in.

Not sure what Speedy's point is here :D

[sauzee_4]

Thanks for the reply sauzee.

I'm curious, do you have any source for Scotland sending more money in than we receive out from the government? Its something I've tried to find in the past with no luck.

I think the best place to look is the GERS figures Dan (worth a google), there was one year recently where more of the % spend came to Scotland than the % raised in taxes, but as a general rule Scotland puts in more than it gets back (proportionately).

We are the wealthiest region of the UK after London/South East so this is perfectly normal.

[sauzee_4]

Yeh ok maybe your right and I certainly admire your positivity and faith etc. Now of course there is a "but": There are soooo many reasons why we can't be Norway and you are right in saying attitude is one. We are just very different in so many ways, you must see that? I think the whole "look at Norway and Switzerland" thing is a complete red herring (sorry!) anyway, it is irrelevant how affluent they are. You can just as easily do comparisons to similar sized countries that have got it all wrong (ROI for example, or Costa Rica but we would swap national teams with them at the moment, right?). Just because these places exist and they have done well or not doesn't mean anything really. Plus politicians are all lying sharks who won't really deliver what they promise where ever they are from and what ever their accent. Jaded view I know but a realistic one.

But you know, I may be very wrong, I have been plenty of times in the past!?!?!?

Like JeMeSouviens says, the ROI are higher up the league tables in terms of wealth per head and well being than we are.

You are right there are many small countries who do not perform well, what is noticeable from all these tables is that the big countries tend to be further down the lists. So my conclusion would be that bigger doesn't equal better.

Or to rip apart the Better Together argument again, we are not safer, wealthier, or happier because we are part of a bigger country. We are also 22nd in the Child Poverty league table (google Unicef child poverty).

[sauzee_4]

Does this figure take into account things like paying for the armed forces, paying into the EU, settling the national debt and other such national costs?

Those are the current figures E/port, that is how much we raised in tax and how much of it was spent in Scotland.

I think you are asking about setup costs if we become independent. These are coming in at a maximum (and I'm being very generous here) £1.5billion.

I believe this is less than it cost us to invade Iraq (something we hopefully wouldn't do as an indy Scotland).

It also is dwarfed by the £4.6 billion saving from HS2 and the £150 billion its going to cost the UK to upgrade Trident (which we are getting rid of if we vote yes).

[Just Alf]

Being Scottish but having spent the vast majority of my life exiled in the north west of England, I like to think I have a reasonably balanced view from the outside of it all? I really, really hope most of you vote NO! I get the whole national pride thing and the hate of the English, but a yes vote just doesn't make sence to me. Most of the north of England isn't governed by who they vote for and Scotland gets treated better by Westminster than the north of England does. Scotland isn't Norway and never will be, don't believe the Yes vote nonsense. Please stay part of Great Britain!

I know it's been answered already but the independence vote is nothing to do with whether we like or dislike England (or Wales/Northern Ireland), Many of my family are English :-), I'll also add that one of the guys at my work who's actively campaigning, hitting doorsteps etc in support of a Yes is originally from Horsham!

I've come from a "no'ish"/undecided position to a fairly firm yes, deep down I would have really preferred us (UK) to have gone down a more federal route. We were almost taking baby steps in that direction a few years ago but voters in NE England didn't show any appetite for it and as a result Westminster pulled further votes (stopping you in the North West having that choice :-( ). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28046590
Just because one area doesnt want more control over it's politicians and how tax £'s are spent shouldn't mean that others cant take the chance if they want it.... I mean the NW as well as Scotland.

sorry... rambling... I hope that makes sense!?

[Just Alf]

Those are the current figures E/port, that is how much we raised in tax and how much of it was spent in Scotland.

I think you are asking about setup costs if we become independent. These are coming in at a maximum (and I'm being very generous here) £1.5billion.

I believe this is less than it cost us to invade Iraq (something we hopefully wouldn't do as an indy Scotland).

It also is dwarfed by the £4.6 billion saving from HS2 and the £150 billion its going to cost the UK to upgrade Trident (which we are getting rid of if we vote yes).

You forgot our £456 million for London Crossrail..... oops that's already being spent on our behalf .... that's OK though we'll get something to go towards the new Forth Bridge and Glasgow Airport rail link... argh! that's devolved isn't it so we will have to fund it ourselves? :confused:

[over the line]

I know it's been answered already but the independence vote is nothing to do with whether we like or dislike England (or Wales/Northern Ireland), Many of my family are English :-), I'll also add that one of the guys at my work who's actively campaigning, hitting doorsteps etc in support of a Yes is originally from Horsham!

I've come from a "no'ish"/undecided position to a fairly firm yes, deep down I would have really preferred us (UK) to have gone down a more federal route. We were almost taking baby steps in that direction a few years ago but voters in NE England didn't show any appetite for it and as a result Westminster pulled further votes (stopping you in the North West having that choice :-( ). http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28046590
Just because one area doesnt want more control over it's politicians and how tax £'s are spent shouldn't mean that others cant take the chance if they want it.... I mean the NW as well as Scotland.

sorry... rambling... I hope that makes sense!?

Fair point well made. From here in NW England I don't want more government/politicians etc. I don't feel it would give me more power or benefit me greatly. Who ever runs the country inevitably become "the bad guys "where ever they sit and make their decisions. There will always be gripes about where money is spent and who gets a new bridge/train track/airport etc, so where ever the border or boundary lies it will always go on. An example of that is in Tyne and Wear. More of the Metro train system got built on Tyneside than on Wearside and people in Sunderland resent that.

And I get that there are quite good cases for and against independence, but I don't really trust or believe either camp entirely, as they are politicians after all. My gut instinct just tells me NO, but what do I know?

I still think a lot of people will be driven by the dislike of the English though, in some part at least. And that's up to them, I'm not knocking them.

I suppose only time will tell won't it and I'm a big believer in "it will all be ok" probably. Good debate though isn't it?

[sauzee_4]

Fair point well made. From here in NW England I don't want more government/politicians etc. I don't feel it would give me more power or benefit me greatly. Who ever runs the country inevitably become "the bad guys "where ever they sit and make their decisions. There will always be gripes about where money is spent and who gets a new bridge/train track/airport etc, so where ever the border or boundary lies it will always go on. An example of that is in Tyne and Wear. More of the Metro train system got built on Tyneside than on Wearside and people in Sunderland resent that.

And I get that there are quite good cases for and against independence, but I don't really trust or believe either camp entirely, as they are politicians after all. My gut instinct just tells me NO, but what do I know?

I still think a lot of people will be driven by the dislike of the English though, in some part at least. And that's up to them, I'm not knocking them.

I suppose only time will tell won't it and I'm a big believer in "it will all be ok" probably. Good debate though isn't it?

Great debate. The most searching question I've ever been asked.

Your point on politicians though, whilst understandable, gives the impression that we should just give up on this whole democracy idea.

Some people will vote 'no' because they think we are too poor. Despite the fact we are richer than France, Italy and Japan. (Google Financial Times)

[over the line]

Great debate. The most searching question I've ever been asked.

Your point on politicians though, whilst understandable, gives the impression that we should just give up on this whole democracy idea.

Some people will vote 'no' because they think we are too poor. Despite the fact we are richer than France, Italy and Japan. (Google Financial Times)

It's a bit of a Hobson's choice with democracy isn't it? It's flawed no doubt, but its the best way available really. I just don't see that making more divides and creating more government is the way forward.

As for being too poor etc, if London (loads of money) pulled up the drawbridge on the North of England (bugger all money) , the North would probably be screwed. It would make sence for the people of London but that certainly doesn't make it right does it? Equally if the Shetland isles opted out of an independent Scotland, they would no doubt have more (oil) money per person than the rest of Scotland (til the oil runs out anyway). I'm stretching it a bit admittedly but do you see my point?

[Gus]

Those are the current figures E/port, that is how much we raised in tax and how much of it was spent in Scotland.

I think you are asking about setup costs if we become independent. These are coming in at a maximum (and I'm being very generous here) £1.5billion.

I believe this is less than it cost us to invade Iraq (something we hopefully wouldn't do as an indy Scotland).

It also is dwarfed by the £4.6 billion saving from HS2 and the £150 billion its going to cost the UK to upgrade Trident (which we are getting rid of if we vote yes).

Wouldn't or couldn't?

[speedy_gonzales]

This is what's known as "the deficit". You might have heard of it? :wink:

Heard of it, certainly, was just pointing out that although 9.9 is greater than 9.3, 56.8 is not great than 64.4, perhaps too simple a comment for this debate but early on in the campaign it was claimed Scotland put more in than it got out, this led people to believe that the monetary value of the 9.9 was greater than the 9.3,,,this wasn't and isn't the case.
There's obviously and clearly a lot more to the finances of our country than these two figures but this is the simple maths and some folk don't understand it.



Not sure what Speedy's point is here :D

See above.

[McSwanky]

Scotland For Richer or Poorer with Robert Peston just started on BBC 2.

Just caught the last 15 minutes of that last night - although I can't stand Peston, it seemed like a decent (dare I say balanced?) watch. I'll try and catch up on the rest of it in between the football over the next couple of nights!

Interesting to hear someone (can't remember who, so no idea if they have their own agenda!) saying, "Scottish people are about as well off as others in the UK just now. In 20 years, Scottish people will very likely still be about as well off as others in the UK whether we vote for independence or not. So base your decision on something other than financials."

So I've finally plumped for the 'yes' button on the poll above!

[CapitalGreen]

I just don't see that making more divides and creating more government is the way forward.

Independance would reduce the amount of Government not create more as Scotland would no longer be governed by Westminster.

[Bristolhibby]

It's a bit of a Hobson's choice with democracy isn't it? It's flawed no doubt, but its the best way available really. I just don't see that making more divides and creating more government is the way forward.

As for being too poor etc, if London (loads of money) pulled up the drawbridge on the North of England (bugger all money) , the North would probably be screwed. It would make sence for the people of London but that certainly doesn't make it right does it? Equally if the Shetland isles opted out of an independent Scotland, they would no doubt have more (oil) money per person than the rest of Scotland (til the oil runs out anyway). I'm stretching it a bit admittedly but do you see my point?

Disagree with your first point, let me explain.

IMHO Proportional representation represents the most democratic way of electing MPs, as your vote counts across the whole country. Lliving in Wiltshire I am disinfranchised. I cannot vote Green, because politics in my area is dominated by Tories and Lib Dems. So I vote tactically, not who I actually want. I choose the lesser of two evils.

PR (with list MSPs) allows for democracy in its fullest terms. If it means more hung parlimanets then fine. As that generally means consensus, and reflects the true will of the people.

Secondly, an unelected Upper Chamber (as is the case with the House of Lords) is an abomination to me and is so far away from democracy its unreal.

For me Indepencence is a chance to get back to democracy, to shake Scotlands (and Englands) Political power to its core.

I genuinelly feel for the Left leaning in England (I'm one of them), we are being lead down a path where I do not like what is at the end, check out this article by Irvine Welsh.

He pretty much sums up how I feel Scottish Independence can be to the Benifit of the whole Politics on our Islands.

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/irvine-welsh-the-scots-poll-can-give-hope-to-the-left-across-britain-9559111.html

On your last point, Shetland is part of Scotland. Scotland has never been part of England (or Wales or Northern Ireland).

J

[over the line]

Disagree with your first point, let me explain.

IMHO Proportional representation represents the most democratic way of electing MPs, as your vote counts across the whole country. Lliving in Wiltshire I am disinfranchised. I cannot vote Green, because politics in my area is dominated by Tories and Lib Dems. So I vote tactically, not who I actually want. I choose the lesser of two evils.

PR (with list MSPs) allows for democracy in its fullest terms. If it means more hung parlimanets then fine. As that generally means consensus, and reflects the true will of the people.

Secondly, an unelected Upper Chamber (as is the case with the House of Lords) is an abomination to me and is so far away from democracy its unreal.

For me Indepencence is a chance to get back to democracy, to shake Scotlands (and Englands) Political power to its core.

On your last point, Shetland is part of Scotland. Scotland has never been part of England (or Wales or Northern Ireland).

J

Yes I see your point about PR and probably agree (I think I voted for it the other year, can't rememer for sure?) Although can't be too sure as we don't really know how PR would pan out in reality. I see that it would probably enable people to vote for who they really want to, instead of tactically. But would it result in effective government, we can only guess at the moment can't we? Of course I'm not saying we currently have effective government and it is obvious we haven't had it for most of the last few decades, so maybe PR should be given a chance? But I'm not sure it would make a huge difference to your average persons day to day?

[Bristolhibby]

Yes I see your point about PR and probably agree. Although can't be too sure as we don't really know how PR would pan out in reality. I see that it would probably enable people to vote for who they really want to, instead of tactically. But would it result in effective government, we can only guess at the moment can't we? Of course I'm not saying we currently have effective government and it is obvious we haven't had it for most of the last few decades, so maybe PR should be given a chance? But I'm not sure it would make a huge difference to your average persons day to day?

Seems to be working OK in Scotland.

And your point about effective government. We are in a coalition. The fact that PR means more coalitions shouldn't be a bad thing, as it perhaps says that "we the people do not want to lurch either left or right, find the middle ground for decisions".

At the moment we have one party leading their "partners" in a merry dance shifting British politics to the right. When (and even looking at First Past the Post) there is no reason to think that almost half the people in the UK DISAGREE with the direction we are being taken. The middle ground seems the natural choice, yet we are heading to the right at an alarming rate.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

It's a bit of a Hobson's choice with democracy isn't it? It's flawed no doubt, but its the best way available really. I just don't see that making more divides and creating more government is the way forward.

As for being too poor etc, if London (loads of money) pulled up the drawbridge on the North of England (bugger all money) , the North would probably be screwed. It would make sence for the people of London but that certainly doesn't make it right does it? Equally if the Shetland isles opted out of an independent Scotland, they would no doubt have more (oil) money per person than the rest of Scotland (til the oil runs out anyway). I'm stretching it a bit admittedly but do you see my point?

It's Churchill's thing, "democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the others".

Looked at from a less government point of view, independence certainly makes sense. We already have a Scottish government, only it spends money it doesn't raise. We also send MPs to Westminster but for WLQ reasons a lot of time they're just twiddling their thumbs (or fiddling their expenses :rolleyes:). If there are any Scottish issues to be raised at EU level, we have to lobby Westminster and hope they see fit to raise them.

So, with independence:

- the Scottish government and parliament do more and are properly accountable
- we get rid of 59 superfluous MPs
- we get direct representation in Brussels and cut out the middle man

If the best thing for a small country was being completely subsumed into a larger neighbour and run at arm's length by them except for some arbitrarily chosen devolved areas of spending, why are no other small countries in the world striving to achieve such an arrangement?

[tcm1875]

Heard of it, certainly, was just pointing out that although 9.9 is greater than 9.3, 56.8 is not great than 64.4, perhaps too simple a comment for this debate but early on in the campaign it was claimed Scotland put more in than it got out, this led people to believe that the monetary value of the 9.9 was greater than the 9.3,,,this wasn't and isn't the case.
There's obviously and clearly a lot more to the finances of our country than these two figures but this is the simple maths and some folk don't understand it.



See above.

Using they percentages for the rest of the UK.

90.1% raised in taxes
90.7% spend

[JeMeSouviens]

Heard of it, certainly, was just pointing out that although 9.9 is greater than 9.3, 56.8 is not great than 64.4, perhaps too simple a comment for this debate but early on in the campaign it was claimed Scotland put more in than it got out, this led people to believe that the monetary value of the 9.9 was greater than the 9.3,,,this wasn't and isn't the case.
There's obviously and clearly a lot more to the finances of our country than these two figures but this is the simple maths and some folk don't understand it.


It's a relative thing rather than absolute.

The UK runs a deficit, Scotland runs a deficit.

If Scotland's deficit is proportionally smaller than the UK as a whole, then Scotland relatively speaking puts more in than rUK while getting out less than rUK (even though both Scotland and rUK are getting more out than they are putting in, by borrowing heavily).

Figures for the last 5 years are summarised here:

http://news.scotland.gov.uk/imagelibrary/downloadmedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=1899&SizeId=-1

[WindyMiller]

Yeh ok maybe your right and I certainly admire your positivity and faith etc. Now of course there is a "but": There are soooo many reasons why we can't be Norway and you are right in saying attitude is one. We are just very different in so many ways, you must see that? I think the whole "look at Norway and Switzerland" thing is a complete red herring (sorry!) anyway, it is irrelevant how affluent they are. You can just as easily do comparisons to similar sized countries that have got it all wrong (ROI for example, or Costa Rica but we would swap national teams with them at the moment, right?). Just because these places exist and they have done well or not doesn't mean anything really. Plus politicians are all lying sharks who won't really deliver what they promise where ever they are from and what ever their accent. Jaded view I know but a realistic one.

But you know, I may be very wrong, I have been plenty of times in the past!?!?!?

I doubt the Irish would want to come back into the fold, even after the collapse of the property makert.

You're way of the mark in your description of Cost Rica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Rica).

Your earlier comment of a Yes vote being anti-English is not something I would agree with.

[sauzee_4]

It's a bit of a Hobson's choice with democracy isn't it? It's flawed no doubt, but its the best way available really. I just don't see that making more divides and creating more government is the way forward.

As for being too poor etc, if London (loads of money) pulled up the drawbridge on the North of England (bugger all money) , the North would probably be screwed. It would make sence for the people of London but that certainly doesn't make it right does it? Equally if the Shetland isles opted out of an independent Scotland, they would no doubt have more (oil) money per person than the rest of Scotland (til the oil runs out anyway). I'm stretching it a bit admittedly but do you see my point?

Yes I do see your point. As far as I'm aware however the Shetland Isles have 'Island enclave status' which entitles them to a smaller share of the oil than you might think (I could be wrong on that I'm sure someone can correct me if so).

But obviously your point was more that 'because we have more money than them it doesn't make it right to keep it to ourselves' well that's true but the fact is that Scotland is being offered the chance to build the type of country we all want. The current set up stinks. It's undemocratic, and favours the elites over the working class. I don't want a privatised NHS, a privatised Royal Mail or the bedroom tax.

The UK will not be skint without us, if I thought it was then maybe I'd have second thoughts

[over the line]

I doubt the Irish would want to come back into the fold, even after the collapse of the property makert.

You're way of the mark in your description of Cost Rica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costa_Rica).

Your earlier comment of a Yes vote being anti-English is not something I would agree with.

I wasn't suggesting for a minute that Ireland should or would want to come back into the fold. I was just making a point at the futility of comparing Scotland to other nations/economies. My point was that you can pick almost any nation in the world and find similarities you can build a case to say we could be the same as them, or how different we are. I threw Costa Rica in as a bit of a link to another current thread on here (getting back to football momentarily!), more than any factual political/economic point. I don't know much about Costa Rica tbh.

I hope you are right about the anti English thing, I would be happy to be wrong about that.

[over the line]

Phewww, I have to say I have had to use my brain a lot more than I planned to when I joined this forum! I hold my hands up and have to say it is obvious that I am well out my depth with this independence debate I've got myself into! You lot have obviously been paying more attention to it all than me and defo know your stuff better than me. I think its obvious I'm no political or economic expert, I still think that differences are best settled by arm wrestling! But its been interesting so far and I have learnt a bit, which is good.

You never know I may be swayed, some of it is quite convincing and I have voted for four different political parties over the years (even the Greens, when I was young and hopeful, as opposed to middle aged and jaded!), so I'm not a dyed in the wool type voter.

But ultimately its irrelevant, as I don't get a vote anyway. But if I did, at the moment it would still be NO (sorry).

PS: I know Shetland is part of Scotland etc etc, but you know the point I was trying to make, even if you don't agree with it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Phewww, I have to say I have had to use my brain a lot more than I planned to when I joined this forum! I hold my hands up and have to say it is obvious that I am well out my depth with this independence debate I've got myself into! You lot have obviously been paying more attention to it all than me and defo know your stuff better than me. I think its obvious I'm no political or economic expert, I still think that differences are best settled by arm wrestling! But its been interesting so far and I have learnt a bit, which is good.

You never know I may be swayed, some of it is quite convincing and I have voted for four different political parties over the years (even the Greens, when I was young and hopeful, as opposed to middle aged and jaded!), so I'm not a dyed in the wool type voter.

But ultimately its irrelevant, as I don't get a vote anyway. But if I did, at the moment it would still be NO (sorry).

PS: I know Shetland is part of Scotland etc etc, but you know the point I was trying to make, even if you don't agree with it.

If you watched the Robert Peston programme last night, you would have found out that Shetland has built 8 swimming pools and other sports facilities from money raised from charging the oil industry a fee to use the deep water facilities of the Island. All power to them fo rdoing it. They have invested all the money and are usin gthe interest only so they have reserves, a mini Norway, if you like.

[over the line]

If you watched the Robert Peston programme last night, you would have found out that Shetland has built 8 swimming pools and other sports facilities from money raised from charging the oil industry a fee to use the deep water facilities of the Island. All power to them fo rdoing it. They have invested all the money and are usin gthe interest only so they have reserves, a mini Norway, if you like.

Yes I saw that bit of the programme but didn't get to watch the whole thing. Shetland are doing very well and a big thumbs up to them for that. That was partly my point, but I also meant it in a wider sense, to do with divisions really and how I don't think we should be making more of them.

And there is that Norway thing again! I assume you just threw that in for menace purposes!?!? :rolleyes:

[Just Alf]

Phewww, I have to say I have had to use my brain a lot more than I planned to when I joined this forum! I hold my hands up and have to say it is obvious that I am well out my depth with this independence debate I've got myself into! You lot have obviously been paying more attention to it all than me and defo know your stuff better than me. I think its obvious I'm no political or economic expert, I still think that differences are best settled by arm wrestling! But its been interesting so far and I have learnt a bit, which is good.

You never know I may be swayed, some of it is quite convincing and I have voted for four different political parties over the years (even the Greens, when I was young and hopeful, as opposed to middle aged and jaded!), so I'm not a dyed in the wool type voter.

But ultimately its irrelevant, as I don't get a vote anyway. But if I did, at the moment it would still be NO (sorry).

PS: I know Shetland is part of Scotland etc etc, but you know the point I was trying to make, even if you don't agree with it.


You ain't wrong .... My mind has be exercised ( or is that exorcised? ) a few times in this thread as well!

:agree:

[over the line]

You ain't wrong .... My mind has be exercised ( or is that exorcised? ) a few times in this thread as well!

:agree:



Glad I'm not alone! ;) I might just stick to less brain mangling stuff from now on. Does anyone want to chat about beer or whisky, or just kick a ball around for a bit maybe? :D

[Moulin Yarns]

#bbcindyref last night, for the No Thankers, John Boyle, former Motherwell Chairman, the same one that took them into Administration. What a tool he was. #justsaying

[green glory]

The coming sh*tstorm from the Westminster paedophile ring allegations and associated cover ups should have everyone considering very carefully whether we want to continue with a system of government which has allowed this to happen over many decades, involving many people in positions of power in the UK government/establishment.

It's especially disturbing that Lady Butler-Sloss has been appointed to head the enquiry. Her own brother Lord Havers was attorney general when Thatcher was in power and has been accused of covering up establishment paedophilia. The establishment investigating itself?

There are many more revelations to come and you can be damned sure the UK government will do cartwheels to protect the most important offenders.


Better Together with this? **** off.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10955726/Brother-of-paedophile-inquiry-judge-was-accused-of-cover-up.html

[marinello59]

The coming sh*tstorm from the Westminster paedophile ring allegations and associated cover ups should have everyone considering very carefully whether we want to continue with a system of government which has allowed this to happen over many decades, involving many people in positions of power in the UK government/establishment.

It's especially disturbing that Lady Butler-Sloss has been appointed to head the enquiry. Her own brother Lord Havers was attorney general when Thatcher was in power and has been accused of covering up establishment paedophilia. The establishment investigating itself?

There are many more revelations to come and you can be damned sure the UK government will do cartwheels to protect the most important offenders.


Better Together with this? **** off.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10955726/Brother-of-paedophile-inquiry-judge-was-accused-of-cover-up.html

Using this scandal as an argument to Vote Yes? Not a route I would like to see us going down.

[CropleyWasGod]

Using this scandal as an argument to Vote Yes? Not a route I would like to see us going down.

Me neither.

Paedophilia and corruption does not stop at the Border.

[green glory]

Using this scandal as an argument to Vote Yes? Not a route I would like to see us going down.

Understandably so. There are many reasons I'll be voting Yes in September and this doesn't alter my opinion.

The issue of trust and accountability is paramount though.

[southfieldhibby]

The coming sh*tstorm from the Westminster paedophile ring allegations and associated cover ups should have everyone considering very carefully whether we want to continue with a system of government which has allowed this to happen over many decades, involving many people in positions of power in the UK government/establishment.

It's especially disturbing that Lady Butler-Sloss has been appointed to head the enquiry. Her own brother Lord Havers was attorney general when Thatcher was in power and has been accused of covering up establishment paedophilia. The establishment investigating itself?

There are many more revelations to come and you can be damned sure the UK government will do cartwheels to protect the most important offenders.


Better Together with this? **** off.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10955726/Brother-of-paedophile-inquiry-judge-was-accused-of-cover-up.html

Was wondering when this card would be played.

There is a very Scottish slant to this whole dreadful saga I reckon, and in particular the Edinburgh based Speculative Society.They may be Westminster MPs but they're Scottish.

There's no borders or high ground to be taken within this sorry tale

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=12346

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes I saw that bit of the programme but didn't get to watch the whole thing. Shetland are doing very well and a big thumbs up to them for that. That was partly my point, but I also meant it in a wider sense, to do with divisions really and how I don't think we should be making more of them.

And there is that Norway thing again! I assume you just threw that in for menace purposes!?!? :rolleyes:

The Norway thing, as you call it, is a model to be admired. I have no doubt it would be very difficult to replicat in an independent Scotland. If you need to understand the reason for Norway being mentioned so often then you need to get yourself along to the public library where you can borrow, for free, a book called Blossom, by English born, Northern Ireland raised, Fife based, Lesley Riddoch.

[marinello59]

The Norway thing, as you call it, is a model to be admired. I have no doubt it would be very difficult to replicat in an independent Scotland. If you need to understand the reason for Norway being mentioned so often then you need to get yourself along to the public library where you can borrow, for free, a book called Blossom, by English born, Northern Ireland raised, Fife based, Lesley Riddoch.

And an excellent wee book it is.

[green glory]

And an excellent wee book it is.

Reading it the noo!

:-)

[over the line]

The Norway thing, as you call it, is a model to be admired. I have no doubt it would be very difficult to replicat in an independent Scotland. If you need to understand the reason for Norway being mentioned so often then you need to get yourself along to the public library where you can borrow, for free, a book called Blossom, by English born, Northern Ireland raised, Fife based, Lesley Riddoch.

I bet the libraries in Norway are brilliant too? Maybe we could follow their model for libraries? Only problem is we would all have to learn to read Norwegian!!! ;)

[Moulin Yarns]

I bet the libraries in Norway are brilliant too? Maybe we could follow their model for libraries? Only problem is we would all have to learn to read Norwegian!!! ;)

Yet another thing that the Scots gave to the world (I bet not a lot of people knew that!) If only we Scots could be just a wee bit more entrepreneurial and philanthropic, for a change :wink:

The model for ALL lending libraries is to be found in Perthshire, established in 1680.

http://www.innerpeffraylibrary.co.uk/#&panel1-1

[over the line]

Yet another thing that the Scots gave to the world (I bet not a lot of people knew that!) If only we Scots could be just a wee bit more entrepreneurial and philanthropic, for a change :wink:

The model for ALL lending libraries is to be found in Perthshire, established in 1680.

http://www.innerpeffraylibrary.co.uk/#&panel1-1

Well I didn't know that . I always thought it would have been the Greeks (we defo don't want to follow the Greek model!).

I do get that Norway is a success story and it is good to have an aspirational role model etc. I just don't think too much should be pinned on Scotland turning out like Norway, because there are so many obvious differences that will be tough to change. Plus it is about £7 a pint in Norway, so we defo don't want to adopt that part of the model!!!:eek:

[Moulin Yarns]

Well I didn't know that . I always thought it would have been the Greeks (we defo don't want to follow the Greek model!).

I do get that Norway is a success story and it is good to have an aspirational role model etc. I just don't think too much should be pinned on Scotland turning out like Norway, because there are so many obvious differences that will be tough to change. Plus it is about £7 a pint in Norway, so we defo don't want to adopt that part of the model!!!:eek:

Norway levies a high taxation on alcohol, over and above the 25% VAT, this then goes to provide all the good bits. Child care, education, health and social benefits. Not such a bad thing when you think about it. It is a case of getting what you pay for. Without the high taxation Norway might be looking at the UK as an aspirational role model. You also have to remember earnings are higher over there.

[over the line]

Norway levies a high taxation on alcohol, over and above the 25% VAT, this then goes to provide all the good bits. Child care, education, health and social benefits. Not such a bad thing when you think about it. It is a case of getting what you pay for. Without the high taxation Norway might be looking at the UK as an aspirational role model. You also have to remember earnings are higher over there.

No doubt there are some enviable parts to the Norwegian and Scandinavian way of life in general (but no Scandinavian teams in the world cup this time though). They do pay a hell of a lot of tax but it seems to work for them. But I'm telling you now, I won't eat pickled herrings, I won't wear those itchy jumpers and I defo won't be happy paying £7 a pint!!! ;)

[sauzee_4]

No doubt there are some enviable parts to the Norwegian and Scandinavian way of life in general. They do pay a hell of a lot of tax but it seems to work for them. But I'm telling you now, I won't eat pickled herrings, I won't wear those itchy jumpers and I defo won't be happy paying £7 a pint!!! ;)

:) as mentioned wages are a lot higher in Norway so you could afford £7 a pint easy.

Cost of living in the UK is extremely high compared with other countries (wish I had data/tables to hand) and this is one of a myriad of problems which the UK Govt has failed to tackle.

Among the others:
Child Poverty, The wealth gap, and generally sticking our noses in other people's business (Iraq, Afghanistan).

[over the line]

Would the plan for Scotland be high taxes like the Scandinavians (I am substituting the "N" country with the word Scandinavian from now on! ;) :rolleyes:) Not saying high taxes are necessarily wrong, but it would be a big shock to a lot of people?

[PeeJay]

Yet another thing that the Scots gave to the world (I bet not a lot of people knew that!) If only we Scots could be just a wee bit more entrepreneurial and philanthropic, for a change :wink:

The model for ALL lending libraries is to be found in Perthshire, established in 1680.

http://www.innerpeffraylibrary.co.uk/#&panel1-1

Don't think this is correct, is it? The site you refer to itself only claims to be "Scotland's oldest public library", whereas Oxford's Bodleian Library was established in 1602 and the Biblioteca Ambrosiana in Milan in 1609 ... (1680 is a bit later on by my reckoning ....)

[sauzee_4]

Would the plan for Scotland be high taxes like the Scandinavians (I am substituting the "N" country with the word Scandinavian from now on! ;) :rolleyes:) Not saying high taxes are necessarily wrong, but it would be a big shock to a lot of people?
There is no requirement to raise taxes, but if we wanted to change things at a later date the opportunity is there. I like the Switzerland idea where if you gather 100,000 signatures on a topic, it has to be put to a referendum.

[Moulin Yarns]

Don't think this is correct, is it? The site you refer to itself only claims to be "Scotland's oldest public library", whereas Oxford's Bodleian Library was established in 1602 and the Biblioteca Ambrosiana in Milan in 1609 ... (1680 is a bit later on by my reckoning ....)

My point is that it was the first free lending library. Other libraries existed for the elite.

[over the line]

My point is that it was the first free lending library. Other libraries existed for the elite.

I like the idea of libraries for the elite. I don't like the thought of reading a book that may have spent time in a poor persons house! You know when one turns a page and it has a "Lambrini Cherry" stain on it, or one gets a faint waft of Findus Crispy Pancakes, puts one right off one's reading doesn't it!?!? ;):D

[steakbake]

Would the plan for Scotland be high taxes like the Scandinavians (I am substituting the "N" country with the word Scandinavian from now on! ;) :rolleyes:) Not saying high taxes are necessarily wrong, but it would be a big shock to a lot of people?

In Denmark, I took home 75% of my gross pay yet was taxed at 53% - tax allowances etc. High earners take home about 60% of gross yet pay 50+% tax. Top earners pay 75% tax. Didn't know anyone who earned that much.

Here, I take home about 73%.

[over the line]

In Denmark, I took home 75% of my gross pay yet was taxed at 53% - tax allowances etc. High earners take home about 60% of gross yet pay 50+% tax. Top earners pay 75% tax. Didn't know anyone who earned that much.

Here, I take home about 73%.

Seems fair enough, leaves you plenty money for steak bakes then? Do they have them in Denmark? ;)

I'm told the Danes are the most contented nation of all? Not sure how they measure that like?


Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

[sauzee_4]

Seems fair enough, leaves you plenty money for steak bakes then? Do they have them in Denmark? ;)

I'm told the Danes are the most contented nation of all? Not sure how they measure that like?


Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

They are one of, certainly higher up the scale than we are. They have the lowest income inequality but at the same time are one of the wealthiest and happiest nations in the world.

There are scoentific measures available to measure happiness and well being. Fairly recent phenomenon called positive psychology.

[Phil D. Rolls]

They are one of, certainly higher up the scale than we are. They have the lowest income inequality but at the same time are one of the wealthiest and happiest nations in the world.

There are scoentific measures available to measure happiness and well being. Fairly recent phenomenon called positive psychology.

Scientific, are you sure that's right?

[Moulin Yarns]

Would the plan for Scotland be high taxes like the Scandinavians (I am substituting the "N" country with the word Scandinavian from now on! ;) :rolleyes:) Not saying high taxes are necessarily wrong, but it would be a big shock to a lot of people?

Can we do it?

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-key-economic-facts-that-prove-scotland-will-be-a-wealthy-independent-nation/


Yes we can!

[over the line]

Can we do it?

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/10-key-economic-facts-that-prove-scotland-will-be-a-wealthy-independent-nation/


Yes we can!

I didn't know Bob the Builder was backing the YES vote? Oh no that's "can we fix it" isn't it? Some might say "can we fix it....its not broke"! I think the English get to keep Bob The Builder if the vote is YES anyway. :rolleyes:

I wonder if they have Bob the builder in Norway?;)

[steakbake]

Seems fair enough, leaves you plenty money for steak bakes then? Do they have them in Denmark? ;)

I'm told the Danes are the most contented nation of all? Not sure how they measure that like?


Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2


I don't think they do - but there were other things. It is, afterall, the land of pastries.

Happiest land in the world: not sure - high male suicide rate, pretty high divorce rate but I would say I felt much freer there than I do here. Plus people are pretty content and not that materialistic. Just watching TV adverts here: buy a big sofa, buy a tv, buy a new laptop, gamble a bit. Danish TV adverts are generally for more basic things: like pastries. But not steakbakes - though I think they'd go down a storm.

[sauzee_4]

Scientific, are you sure that's right?

Yeah sounds mental I know, I've been reading this book lately http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0749952466?pc_redir=1404618097&robot_redir=1

She is an American Psychologist. It turns out they can now measure well-being fairly accurately (although I wouldn't imagine it to be 100% accurate)
and they have also done a lot of research into what makes people happy, the effects of money on happiness, marriage on happiness etc etc.

[Moulin Yarns]

I didn't know Bob the Builder was backing the YES vote? Oh no that's "can we fix it" isn't it? Some might say "can we fix it....its not broke"! I think the English get to keep Bob The Builder if the vote is YES anyway. :rolleyes:

I wonder if they have Bob the builder in Norway?;)

he is Byggmester Bob in Norway. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

I didn't know Bob the Builder was backing the YES vote? Oh no that's "can we fix it" isn't it? Some might say "can we fix it....its not broke"! I think the English get to keep Bob The Builder if the vote is YES anyway. :rolleyes:

I wonder if they have Bob the builder in Norway?;)

We have his teuchy cousin Calum. :greengrin

http://www.btowstore.com/WebRoot/BT3/Shops/Store3_002E_Shop2319/4A51/F76E/3D71/A5BE/D50E/0A0A/33E7/B881/bob_the_builder_gaelic.jpg

[over the line]

Yeah sounds mental I know, I've been reading this book lately http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0749952466?pc_redir=1404618097&robot_redir=1

She is an American Psychologist. It turns out they can now measure well-being fairly accurately (although I wouldn't imagine it to be 100% accurate)
and they have also done a lot of research into what makes people happy, the effects of money on happiness, marriage on happiness etc etc.

I'm no scientist like, but I can tell you the effects of money and marriage on your happiness levels: having money makes you happy (yes it does) and being married means you have no money cos she spends it all on cushions, carpets, curtains etc (even though there is nothing wrong with the old ones!), which makes you skint, which makes you miserable! :(

So, its only a theory but maybe cushions, curtains and carpets are all free in Denmark, thus making them happier and making marriage less torturous? I have no evidence to support this theory but I will research it and get back to you. ;)

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7PfP7u-QGRo

[over the line]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7PfP7u-QGRo

Not sure how its "cheating tactics", the YES lot are trying to persuade you to side with them and the NO lot are doing the same. If I was an employer and I felt voting one way or another made a huge difference to my business, then I would share that view with my workers. But its up to them where they put their cross on the ballot paper on the day isn't it? And a YES vote is likely to have a huge impact on the armed forces in particular isn't it and I'm sure the YES lot are trying to sell themselves to the service people too?

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure how its "cheating tactics", the YES lot are trying to persuade you to side with them and the NO lot are doing the same. If I was an employer and I felt voting one way or another made a huge difference to my business, then I would share that view with my workers. But its up to them where they put their cross on the ballot paper on the day isn't it? And a YES vote is likely to have a huge impact on the armed forces in particular isn't it and I'm sure the YES lot are trying to sell themselves to the service people too?

Did you not hear him say at 1:40 that it is actually illegal to have politics in the armed forces, yet Westminster has sent political canvassing to all the armed forces, and used the Recent Armed Forces Day to again tell the armed forces to vote in one particular way?

I am not allowed to stand for any political party while I am currently employed where I am so why should my employer be allowed to tell me to vote one way or the other, I might disagree with their politics. I would see their telling me to vote a particular way as interfering in my democratic right.

There's freedom of speech, but there is also intimidation and if I was being told how to vote by my employer I would be straight to a tribunal for harrassment and bullying. If I defy my employer and vote the opposite way to their wishes, where would I stand at my next promotion interview??

[over the line]

Did you not hear him say at 1:40 that it is actually illegal to have politics in the armed forces, yet Westminster has sent political canvassing to all the armed forces, and used the Recent Armed Forces Day to again tell the armed forces to vote in one particular way?

I am not allowed to stand for any political party while I am currently employed where I am so why should my employer be allowed to tell me to vote one way or the other, I might disagree with their politics. I would see their telling me to vote a particular way as interfering in my democratic right.

There's freedom of speech, but there is also intimidation and if I was being told how to vote by my employer I would be straight to a tribunal for harrassment and bullying. If I defy my employer and vote the opposite way to their wishes, where would I stand at my next promotion interview??

No offence like but I think you and the old boy may be getting a bit carried away with this? You must know that they can't tell you how to vote but they can inform you (or allow someone else to)of the pros and cons of voting in a particular way. I think it is responsible and fair of any employer to allow their employees to be informed of the likely affects of such an important decision as is being made in the the referendum. Now get real, they can't "make" you vote either way can they? I mean are you suggesting the employer or army officer, is going to follow everyone into the voting booth and look over their shoulder whilst they cast their vote? People will vote for what they feel is best for them based on the information available to them, the more info from both sides the better I say. I think this is a totally spurious point that is blown way out of proportion and the comparison with the Soviet Union is laughable! It comes across as desperation being over dramatized, rather than a sensible valid political or moral point.

If the YES lot think they can make their case and sell it to the armed forces, or any group of employees, then they should do it. Like I said, the more info the better.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Yeah sounds mental I know, I've been reading this book lately http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0749952466?pc_redir=1404618097&robot_redir=1

She is an American Psychologist. It turns out they can now measure well-being fairly accurately (although I wouldn't imagine it to be 100% accurate)
and they have also done a lot of research into what makes people happy, the effects of money on happiness, marriage on happiness etc etc.

I see psychology as a pseudoscience. Ultimately it relies on subjectivity, as the answer to a question like "are you happy" depends upon the individuals perception of themselves, and of what makes them happy.

I don't disagree with the principle of measuring a nations success by other measures than - say gross national product, though.

[steakbake]

If the YES lot think they can make their case and sell it to the armed forces, or any group of employees, then they should do it. Like I said, the more info the better.

Agree with some of your points there. To be straight up, I'll vote yes: and would do no matter what various pros and cons are put my way.

My problem with the way both sides are campaign is that there is a lot of dishonest, disingenuous and diversionary information being put about. The same set of stats are being used to conclude vastly different propositions.

I read a quite from Greenspan today, along the lines of "no politician, banker or economist knows what lies ahead. if they did, the western financial bubble would have been predicted and even prevented". Fact is, very few saw it coming and those that did are as likely to be wrong on a number of other things as they were right with this.

Pretty much everything could be negotiated to a successful and mutually beneficial conclusion - currency, EU, NATO, defence, economy, immigration: the whole lot.

Anyway, the sum of what I'm saying is that I wouldn't have concerns if the information was reliable. But it's not. This referendum should have been a discussion of ideas for progress either as part of the UK or not. It's just been slinging various bits if propaganda at each other.

[sauzee_4]

I see psychology as a pseudoscience. Ultimately it relies on subjectivity, as the answer to a question like "are you happy" depends upon the individuals perception of themselves, and of what makes them happy.

I don't disagree with the principle of measuring a nations success by other measures than - say gross national product, though.

Can understand why you might be sceptical about being able to assess someone's well-being (I also realise we are going off at a tangent!).

Having read the book I found the case quite convincing that they can assess it to some degree.

But yeah agree aswell that a nations GDP should not be the sole indicator of a country's success.

[over the line]

[QUOTE=steakbake;4094714]Agree with some of your points there. To be straight up, I'll vote yes: and would do no matter what various pros and cons are put my way.

My problem with the way both sides are campaign is that there is a lot of dishonest, disingenuous and diversionary information being put about. The same set of stats are being used to conclude vastly different propositions.

Anyway, the sum of what I'm saying is that I wouldn't have concerns if the information was reliable. But it's not. This referendum should have been a discussion of ideas for progress either as part of the UK or not. It's just been slinging various bits if propaganda at each other. {QUOTE}

Totally agree. That is my point about that QC in the video, he was churning out skewed "information" and pure propaganda. I have no doubt it goes on both ways, but his video was like something off FOX "news" channel, ridiculous.

The bottom line is that what ever the outcome there will be winners and losers, business wise and other wise. Obviously a YES vote will have a huge impact on the structure of the armed forces and the viability of certain industries, like the shipyard at Rosyth. Of course their bosses are going to encourage their employees to vote NO, they don't want to vote themselves onto the dole do they? It's a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas isn't it!?!? It is pure nonsense to say its a "cheating tactic", it makes perfect sense from their position doesn't it and even the most hardcore YES voters must understand that?

Just for balance: I realise some industries may do better with independence and some won't be affected at all.

It's a real shame that none of the "facts" and "information" can trully be trusted, but you are dead right I'm afraid and correct to doubt its validity.

[sauzee_4]

[QUOTE=steakbake;4094714]Agree with some of your points there. To be straight up, I'll vote yes: and would do no matter what various pros and cons are put my way.

My problem with the way both sides are campaign is that there is a lot of dishonest, disingenuous and diversionary information being put about. The same set of stats are being used to conclude vastly different propositions.

Anyway, the sum of what I'm saying is that I wouldn't have concerns if the information was reliable. But it's not. This referendum should have been a discussion of ideas for progress either as part of the UK or not. It's just been slinging various bits if propaganda at each other. {QUOTE}

Totally agree. That is my point about that QC in the video, he was churning out skewed "information" and pure propaganda. I have no doubt it goes on both ways, but his video was like something off FOX "news" channel, ridiculous.

The bottom line is that what ever the outcome there will be winners and losers, business wise and other wise. Obviously a YES vote will have a huge impact on the structure of the armed forces and the viability of certain industries, like the shipyard at Rosyth. Of course their bosses are going to encourage their employees to vote NO, they don't want to vote themselves onto the dole do they? It's a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas isn't it!?!? It is pure nonsense to say its a "cheating tactic", it makes perfect sense from their position doesn't it and even the most hardcore YES voters must understand that?

Just for balance: I realise some industries may do better with independence and some won't be affected at all.

It's a real shame that none of the "facts" and "information" can trully be trusted, but you are dead right I'm afraid and correct to doubt its validity.

Probably your most accurate contribution to the thread Eport :D

The one thing I do disagree with though, is that people say the 'facts are not available'. If you have access to a computer and Google, I honestly believe you have all the tools you need to make an informed decision.

If on the otherhand you only watch the 'news' or read the papers, of course you will be bombarded with propoganda from both sides.

[500miles]

[QUOTE=steakbake;4094714]Agree with some of your points there. To be straight up, I'll vote yes: and would do no matter what various pros and cons are put my way.

My problem with the way both sides are campaign is that there is a lot of dishonest, disingenuous and diversionary information being put about. The same set of stats are being used to conclude vastly different propositions.

Anyway, the sum of what I'm saying is that I wouldn't have concerns if the information was reliable. But it's not. This referendum should have been a discussion of ideas for progress either as part of the UK or not. It's just been slinging various bits if propaganda at each other. {QUOTE}

Totally agree. That is my point about that QC in the video, he was churning out skewed "information" and pure propaganda. I have no doubt it goes on both ways, but his video was like something off FOX "news" channel, ridiculous.

The bottom line is that what ever the outcome there will be winners and losers, business wise and other wise. Obviously a YES vote will have a huge impact on the structure of the armed forces and the viability of certain industries, like the shipyard at Rosyth. Of course their bosses are going to encourage their employees to vote NO, they don't want to vote themselves onto the dole do they? It's a bit like turkeys voting for Christmas isn't it!?!? It is pure nonsense to say its a "cheating tactic", it makes perfect sense from their position doesn't it and even the most hardcore YES voters must understand that?

Just for balance: I realise some industries may do better with independence and some won't be affected at all.

It's a real shame that none of the "facts" and "information" can trully be trusted, but you are dead right I'm afraid and correct to doubt its validity.

Their commanding officer may not follow them into the voting booth, but remember - they are preparing people for war. They instill a mindset allows soldiers to jump on top of bombs, run into hailstorms of bullets and die on the orders of those in charge. If you don't think they can control the voting intentions when they apply the same approach, then you're being foolish. In fact, I used to be friends with a guy who was a certainty to vote for independence until a few months ago when he joined the army, and he underwent a miraculous transformation. It was really mind boggling that he'd changed his mind on suddenly having this "feeling" which no one was allowed to question or challenge.

The Government are NOT allowed to bring politics into the armed forces. They army is in a position of trust with soldiers, who are trained to do as they are told without question. Politically influencing with this state of mind is, essentially, brainwashing, which is why it is illegal, and therefore a dirty, underhanded and dishonest act.

Once again, BAE systems have pointed out that the Type26 ships used by our army can only be produced on Scottish shipyards and has no plans to produce them elsewhere. Our shipyards will remain competitive in and out of the UK. This has been cleared up before - the other option that has been touted to rUK is a joint procurement program with Australia, on the other side of the world, which would likely be more costly due to the distance, but also makes clear that the UK Government is happy to do business with countries outwith the Union when it comes to building these types of ship.

[over the line]

[QUOTE=E/Port_Hibee;4094748]

Probably your most accurate contribution to the thread Eport :D

The one thing I do disagree with though, is that people say the 'facts are not available'. If you have access to a computer and Google, I honestly believe you have all the tools you need to make an informed decision.

If on the otherhand you only watch the 'news' or read the papers, of course you will be bombarded with propoganda from both sides.

Thank you, made my brain hurt that one! I will balance it out now by making my next 6 posts the normal immature drivel, maybe i'll go back to upsetting the "Nortopians" on here for a bit? ;)

Sadly the vast majority of people are and will be relying on getting their 'information' from the 'news' and the red top toilet papers (me included).

[over the line]

[QUOTE=E/Port_Hibee;4094748]

Their commanding officer may not follow them into the voting booth, but remember - they are preparing people for war. They instill a mindset allows soldiers to jump on top of bombs, run into hailstorms of bullets and die on the orders of those in charge. If you don't think they can control the voting intentions when they apply the same approach, then you're being foolish. In fact, I used to be friends with a guy who was a certainty to vote for independence until a few months ago when he joined the army, and he underwent a miraculous transformation. It was really mind boggling that he'd changed his mind on suddenly having this "feeling" which no one was allowed to question or challenge.

The Government are NOT allowed to bring politics into the armed forces. They army is in a position of trust with soldiers, who are trained to do as they are told without question. Politically influencing with this state of mind is, essentially, brainwashing, which is why it is illegal, and therefore a dirty, underhanded and dishonest act.

Once again, BAE systems have pointed out that the Type26 ships used by our army can only be produced on Scottish shipyards and has no plans to produce them elsewhere. Our shipyards will remain competitive in and out of the UK. This has been cleared up before - the other option that has been touted to rUK is a joint procurement program with Australia, on the other side of the world, which would likely be more costly due to the distance, but also makes clear that the UK Government is happy to do business with countries outwith the Union when it comes to building these types of ship.

In my time in the army I never considered myself brainwashed in any way. I was well trained and disciplined but I was still free thinking and I knew my own mind. I also believe this to be the case with almost all the soldiers I served with. There were a few army barmy, unquestioning types but not many at all. There is a definite Tory bias from the officer class and always has been but that was not the case for the rest of us. I voted for Labour and Liberal whilst in the army and there seemed to be a mix of political views, as is the case in society. The British Army does teach discipline and obedience its true but it also prides itself on having self reliant and adaptable soldiers, who are capable of assessing situations and making the correct decision. I think maybe you should give a bit more credit to the intelligence of the armed forces personnel, they are not brainwashed morons (I know you didn't call them morons)and they are more than capable of making their own minds up, regardless of what their officers tell them.

Now I know the point of your post wasn't to have a pop at soldiers etc I'm not suggesting it was either but I feel your way off the mark with the brainwashing thing. Plus I still don't see it as a dirty tactic, an employer should be telling its employees what it believes is best for the organisation, it make perfect sense.

[Moulin Yarns]

Unfortunately, the 'army' isn't the employer, Westminster is, through the Ministry of Defense. That is why it is dirty tricks by the government. The army etc is employed by those that run the No campaign
[QUOTE=500miles;4094865]

In my time in the army I never considered myself brainwashed in any way. I was well trained and disciplined but I was still free thinking and I knew my own mind. I also believe this to be the case with almost all the soldiers I served with. There were a few army barmy, unquestioning types but not many at all. There is a definite Tory bias from the officer class and always has been but that was not the case for the rest of us. I voted for Labour and Liberal whilst in the army and there seemed to be a mix of political views, as is the case in society. The British Army does teach discipline and obedience its true but it also prides itself on having self reliant and adaptable soldiers, who are capable of assessing situations and making the correct decision. I think maybe you should give a bit more credit to the intelligence of the armed forces personnel, they are not brainwashed morons (I know you didn't call them morons)and they are more than capable of making their own minds up, regardless of what their officers tell them.

Now I know the point of your post wasn't to have a pop at soldiers etc I'm not suggesting it was either but I feel your way off the mark with the brainwashing thing. Plus I still don't see it as a dirty tactic, an employer should be telling its employees what it believes is best for the organisation, it make perfect sense.

[over the line]

Unfortunately, the 'army' isn't the employer, Westminster is, through the Ministry of Defense. That is why it is dirty tricks by the government. The army etc is employed by those that run the No campaign [QUOTE=E/Port_Hibee;4094912]

But surely the YES campaign would expect an encourage their employees to side with them wouldn't they?

But anyway it's ok to disagree, that's one of the plus sides to a free democracy isn't it?

I would be interested to know exactly what the armed forces are being told and then see how that stacks up against this no politics in the forces legislation people are talking about. I am vaguely aware that some legislation does exist in this area but what exactly does it restrict?

Everybody knows all governments use covert illegal tactics to achieve certain aims but I would be very surprised if they are openly breaking legislation as people on here are suggesting. If the Tories are anything, they are a slick and ruthless political machine and I'm not sure they would put their heads on the block in this way? If I'm wrong then so be it i'll accept it but if what they are doing is legal, then its fair game isn't it?

Just like to point out I am not a Tory in any way. I don't have any political affiliations, I just vote for what I think is the best option at the time and I have voted for 5 different parties over the years.

[sauzee_4]

[QUOTE=sauzee_4;4094851]

Thank you, made my brain hurt that one! I will balance it out now by making my next 6 posts the normal immature drivel, maybe i'll go back to upsetting the "Nortopians" on here for a bit? ;)

Sadly the vast majority of people are and will be relying on getting their 'information' from the 'news' and the red top toilet papers (me included).

Sorry I didn't mean your other posts were bad! :D

Well if you have any other questions, (even hard ones), give them a bash on here

[over the line]

[QUOTE=E/Port_Hibee;4094891]

Sorry I didn't mean your other posts were bad! :D

Well if you have any other questions, (even hard ones), give them a bash on here

No worries, its all a bit of banter isn't it? ;):D

[easty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnm2N16GVCY

[DaveF]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnm2N16GVCY

Ever so slightly mad methinks :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnm2N16GVCY

Jings, Alistair Darling has let himself go recently :greengrin

[over the line]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnm2N16GVCY


I think my Dad makes a good and sensible point on Question time. I'm just glad he didn't have sweaty pits, with him keeping his hand up the whole way through the question/statement, because that would have made him look silly! ;);):D

Now if that doesn't persuade you to vote NO, then I don't know what will?!?!?!?:confused::D

[lucky]

Another blow for the yes campaign as Juncker says no new nations in the EU for 5 years. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10968820/Juncker-deals-blow-to-Alex-Salmonds-EU-claims.html

[over the line]

Another blow for the yes campaign as Juncker says no new nations in the EU for 5 years. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10968820/Juncker-deals-blow-to-Alex-Salmonds-EU-claims.html

Cue the "well 'Nortopia' seems to be doing ok and its not in the EU" posts! ;)


I do know it is part of EEA, or whatever? :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

Another blow for the yes campaign as Juncker says no new nations in the EU for 5 years. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10968820/Juncker-deals-blow-to-Alex-Salmonds-EU-claims.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28311938 :flamed:

New European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker was not referring to Scotland when he said there would be no new members of the EU in the next five years, BBC Scotland has learned.

Opponents of Scottish independence had seized on his remarks to the European Parliament to back their campaign.

They said it proved that, if Scotland were to vote to leave the UK, it would not get back into the EU before 2019.

But a spokeswoman confirmed that he was talking about countries outside the EU.

In other news...New blow to Salmond and YES campaign as leading nutritionist declares that Scots wont be allowed jam on their piece after YES vote.:wink:

#BTFibs is a hoot.

[ronaldo7]

Watch out Scotland...Vote no and here comes Priti

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/tory-mp-priti-patel-sparks-1471711#.U8VlJFC6r04.twitter

[tcm1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28311938 :flamed:

New European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker was not referring to Scotland when he said there would be no new members of the EU in the next five years, BBC Scotland has learned.

Opponents of Scottish independence had seized on his remarks to the European Parliament to back their campaign.

They said it proved that, if Scotland were to vote to leave the UK, it would not get back into the EU before 2019.

But a spokeswoman confirmed that he was talking about countries outside the EU.

In other news...New blow to Salmond and YES campaign as leading nutritionist declares that Scots wont be allowed jam on their piece after YES vote.:wink:

#BTFibs is a hoot.

Lol, rescue job required. Blow to no camp yet again.....

[Moulin Yarns]

#BTFibs is a hoot.

I only came across it last night, but there are some crackers.

In an independent Scotland, the Jeely Piece will return to earth to solve our hungry wean problem forever #BTFibs (https://twitter.com/hashtag/BTFibs?src=hash)

An independent Scotland will lose the right to use the letters "U" and "K," thereby ruining all the best swear words. #BTfibs (https://twitter.com/hashtag/BTfibs?src=hash)

#BTfibs (https://twitter.com/hashtag/BTfibs?src=hash) an Independent Scotland will no longer have membership of the human race. Forced to reapply and join the queue.

In iScotland the hunger games will officially commence. Winners will get the ultimate prize - to move to the capital, London #BTFibs (https://twitter.com/hashtag/BTFibs?src=hash)

In an Independent Scotland you will be forced to throw your granny aff a bus. #BTFibs (https://twitter.com/hashtag/BTFibs?src=hash)

In iScotland you'll only be able to get that toilet paper that feels like tracing paper they use to have in the schools in the 70s #BTfibs (https://twitter.com/hashtag/BTfibs?src=hash)

[allmodcons]

Another blow for the yes campaign as Juncker says no new nations in the EU for 5 years. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10968820/Juncker-deals-blow-to-Alex-Salmonds-EU-claims.html

Nothing like jumping the gun eh!

As appears typical of Labour supporting 'No' voters, you couldn't wait to spread the (perceived) bad news about a possible block to an iScotland joining the EU, except to say of course, that Juncker was not referring to Scotland.

Why is it that you cannot wait to jump on the bandwagon and cheer any bad news about your country?

1. The OBR give us a gloomy forecast on future oil revenues and Labour 'No' voters jump for joy. Why?
2. UKIP get a Euro MP elected and the Labour Party in Scotland jump for joy because they'd rather someone from the right wing UKIP gets a seat ahead of another candidate from the socially democratic SNP. Why?
3. Juncker comments that the EU is not seeking enlargement (in the context of the Balkans) and Labour 'No' voters jump for joy at the prospect he might have been talking about Scotland. Why?

All very embarrassing. Someone disses your country and you think "great" this is good news for a 'No' vote :confused:. Why?

[green glory]

Another blow for the yes campaign as Juncker says no new nations in the EU for 5 years. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10968820/Juncker-deals-blow-to-Alex-Salmonds-EU-claims.html

Ahem. This was debunked almost immediately by Juncker's spokesperson making it crystal clear it didn't refer to Scotland.

[lucky]

Usual OTT reaction on here. I'm as passionate a Scot as anyone else. When stating arguments against leaving the UK it does not make you anti Scottish. It's this abuse that's turning people off. The polls are widening as people know the risks are too great. The arguments are all over we are remaining in the UK but keep it up lads.

[Moulin Yarns]

Usual OTT reaction on here. I'm as passionate a Scot as anyone else. When stating arguments against leaving the UK it does not make you anti Scottish. It's this abuse that's turning people off. The polls are widening as people know the risks are too great. The arguments are all over we are remaining in the UK but keep it up lads.

Perhaps if you actually posted something that was factually correct, and not post a link to a story that was immediately found to be untrue then you might get a bit more respect.

I trust you will be happy with this appointment to the Westminster government when Scotland's budget is torn to shreds in 2015

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-mp-who-is-the-new-treasury-minister-who-supports-death-penalty-and-rejects-plain-packaging-for-cigarettes-9608096.html


The risks for Scotland are greater if there is another Conservative or Con/UKIP government in 2015

[allmodcons]

Usual OTT reaction on here. I'm as passionate a Scot as anyone else. When stating arguments against leaving the UK it does not make you anti Scottish. It's this abuse that's turning people off. The polls are widening as people know the risks are too great. The arguments are all over we are remaining in the UK but keep it up lads.

What abuse?
In 1 post I've asked you 5 questions. Would you like to try answering them?

[Gus]

Had a Yes campaigner on my doorstep last night, nice chap but has done nothing to persuade me or my household to vote Yes.

I will support them if they get voted in. Out of about 50 people I have spoken to I would say 80% are def in the No camp

[green glory]

Usual OTT reaction on here. I'm as passionate a Scot as anyone else. When stating arguments against leaving the UK it does not make you anti Scottish. It's this abuse that's turning people off. The polls are widening as people know the risks are too great. The arguments are all over we are remaining in the UK but keep it up lads.

What abuse?

[sauzee_4]

Usual OTT reaction on here. I'm as passionate a Scot as anyone else. When stating arguments against leaving the UK it does not make you anti Scottish. It's this abuse that's turning people off. The polls are widening as people know the risks are too great. The arguments are all over we are remaining in the UK but keep it up lads.

Could you give us a detailed list of the genuine risks?

[over the line]

Usual OTT reaction on here. I'm as passionate a Scot as anyone else. When stating arguments against leaving the UK it does not make you anti Scottish. It's this abuse that's turning people off. The polls are widening as people know the risks are too great. The arguments are all over we are remaining in the UK but keep it up lads.

You must have upset them on here before I think? I have posted some very ill informed rubbish on here and I've not had as bad a backlash!

I don't see the problem with posting stuff/links on here that are pro NO, or pro YES, surely that's the whole point of the thread isn't it?

I'm sure we all want what is best for Scotland, its just that we don't all agree on the best method of achieving this. I don't see that highlighting possible disadvantages of voting either way as anti Scottish, in fact it is the exact opposite. We may as well delete this thread if we only have pro Yes back slapping posts on here!

On a slightly different point, do you not think this referendum is producing a split/divide in the Scottish people, that previously didn't exist? Who does that benefit?

[lucky]

You must have upset them on here before I think? I have posted some very ill informed rubbish on here and I've not had as bad a backlash!

I don't see the problem with posting stuff/links on here that are pro NO, or pro YES, surely that's the whole point of the thread isn't it?

I'm sure we all want what is best for Scotland, its just that we don't all agree on the best method of achieving this. I don't see that highlighting possible disadvantages of voting either way as anti Scottish, in fact it is the exact opposite. We may as well delete this thread if we only have pro Yes back slapping posts on here!

On a slightly different point, do you not think this referendum is producing a split/divide in the Scottish people, that previously didn't exist? Who does that benefit?

You noticed! Yes I've had a few knocks on here as I've been one a few No voices on here. But to fair I do fling a few bones out and get lots of bites. But come the 19th I'll be smiling

[sauzee_4]

You must have upset them on here before I think? I have posted some very ill informed rubbish on here and I've not had as bad a backlash!

I don't see the problem with posting stuff/links on here that are pro NO, or pro YES, surely that's the whole point of the thread isn't it?

I'm sure we all want what is best for Scotland, its just that we don't all agree on the best method of achieving this. I don't see that highlighting possible disadvantages of voting either way as anti Scottish, in fact it is the exact opposite. We may as well delete this thread if we only have pro Yes back slapping posts on here!

On a slightly different point, do you not think this referendum is producing a split/divide in the Scottish people, that previously didn't exist? Who does that benefit?

Spot on with that, on your last paragraph I would say yes, there have been fall outs which is a shame, but most people can accept that we all have different views, and they don't make us bad people if we disagree.

It's been a fantastic question to explore though. And I'm glad we've been asked, this is what democracy is all about.

I would have never placed myself in the pro-independence camp 5 years ago but thats because the question was never on the table.

[southfieldhibby]

Usual OTT reaction on here. I'm as passionate a Scot as anyone else. When stating arguments against leaving the UK it does not make you anti Scottish. It's this abuse that's turning people off. The polls are widening as people know the risks are too great. The arguments are all over we are remaining in the UK but keep it up lads.

Gets caught out talking pish, deflects facts by acting the victim.

standard.

[stoneyburn hibs]

You noticed! Yes I've had a few knocks on here as I've been one a few No voices on here. But to fair I do fling a few bones out and get lots of bites. But come the 19th I'll be smiling

Except most of your bones turn out to be boomerang flavoured and come back to hit you. I'm not picking on you, just to be clear.

[over the line]

Except most of your bones turn out to be boomerang flavoured and come back to hit you. I'm not picking on you, just to be clear.

Good comeback! (Boomerang.....comeback......sigh :rolleyes)

But I'm pretty sure its the boomerangs shape, as opposed to its flavour, that makes it comeback? Could be wrong though? ;);):D

[Mibbes Aye]

Gets caught out talking pish, deflects facts by acting the victim.

standard.

After your claims about the Scottish ILF are you really in a position to be throwing about statements like that?

[southfieldhibby]

After your claims about the Scottish ILF are you really in a position to be throwing about statements like that?

Takes one to know one I suppose dear

[Mibbes Aye]

Takes one to know one I suppose dear

:greengrin Fair play

[lucky]

Gets caught out talking pish, deflects facts by acting the victim.

standard.

Oh I'm hurt, the pish that gets spouted comes from the yes camp. But I'll leave you's to have your yes love in. But still believe 65% plus will vote no.

[ronaldo7]

What position are you playing?

13084

[stoneyburn hibs]

Good comeback! (Boomerang.....comeback......sigh :rolleyes)

But I'm pretty sure its the boomerangs shape, as opposed to its flavour, that makes it comeback? Could be wrong though? ;);):D

Aye it is the shape but you got the flavour of my post, don't know if it warranted the roll eyes though.

[Peevemor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkicM-8sBHY

[Moulin Yarns]

Another blow for the yes campaign as Juncker says no new nations in the EU for 5 years. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10968820/Juncker-deals-blow-to-Alex-Salmonds-EU-claims.html


Oh I'm hurt, the pish that gets spouted comes from the yes camp. But I'll leave you's to have your yes love in. But still believe 65% plus will vote no.

would you like to take that comment about pish and explain your pish about Junkers?

[The_Todd]

Usual OTT reaction on here. I'm as passionate a Scot as anyone else. When stating arguments against leaving the UK it does not make you anti Scottish. It's this abuse that's turning people off. The polls are widening as people know the risks are too great. The arguments are all over we are remaining in the UK but keep it up lads.

This is a genuine question and not a pop at anyone, including yourself but one I really want to know the answer to:

Why is it the "No" camp always talk about how patriotic they are, what "proud, passionate" Scots they are, how they love their "Scottishness" etc and then paint the whole Yes movement as nationalistic who as far as I can tell never bang on about "Scottishness" or "patriotism"? I don't get it.

On another point, why do "No" voters always bang on about how dangerous Scottish nationalism is then go on to explain how they're terrified that suddenly English and Welsh family will become "foreign" after indy (as if "foreigners" are bad) and how their "Britishness" is under threat? To me only one side of the debate appears to be about nationality and nationalism and it's not the "Yes" side.

[over the line]

Aye it is the shape but you got the flavour of my post, don't know if it warranted the roll eyes though.

I was only kidding, the roll eyes were for my poor 'come back' pun. I did get the flavour, I was just nit picking and being daft. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::D

[Moulin Yarns]

An informed English persons view on Scottish Independence.

http://upholdingenglishhonour.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/dear-eddie-izzard-and-friends-please-dont-go-on-please-listen-to-why-its-ok-for-us-english-to-let-scotland-go/ (http://upholdingenglishhonour.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/dear-eddie-izzard-and-friends-please-dont-go-on-please-listen-to-why-its-ok-for-us-english-to-let-scotland-go/)

[southfieldhibby]

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/police-approve-anti-independence-orange-march-1-3479592

Oh deary me.Reckon BT will be very unhappy about this, as am I.

[speedy_gonzales]

This is a genuine question and not a pop at anyone, including yourself but one I really want to know the answer to:

Why is it the "No" camp always talk about how patriotic they are, what "proud, passionate" Scots they are, how they love their "Scottishness" etc and then paint the whole Yes movement as nationalistic who as far as I can tell never bang on about "Scottishness" or "patriotism"? I don't get it.

On another point, why do "No" voters always bang on about how dangerous Scottish nationalism is then go on to explain how they're terrified that suddenly English and Welsh family will become "foreign" after indy (as if "foreigners" are bad) and how their "Britishness" is under threat? To me only one side of the debate appears to be about nationality and nationalism and it's not the "Yes" side.
Personally, I have asked questions or posted comments on various forums including local media and social media that were intended to be from a neutral perspective but could easily be perceived to be from a BT slant, I have been accused of being anti Scottish, a scaremongerer but worst of all,,, a Tory! Seen it done with others too so not unique.
The Tory jibe did sting, having never voted for them and being an active union member as well!

[The_Todd]

Personally, I have asked questions or posted comments on various forums including local media and social media that were intended to be from a neutral perspective but could easily be perceived to be from a BT slant, I have been accused of being anti Scottish, a scaremongerer but worst of all,,, a Tory! Seen it done with others too so not unique.
The Tory jibe did sting, having never voted for them and being an active union member as well!

That's fair enough.

But when it comes to official statements, not just the grassroots it's always the same. "I'm a proud Scot", "Proud Scots vote no", "I'm proud to be British and Scottish". It always seems that the official "No" camps and spokespeople wrap themselves in nationality all the time then yell "nationalism is bad" at the "Yes" campaign. And I'm genuinely confused by it, because it seems to suggest that "Better Together" are saying that British Nationalism is fine, but Scottish Independence is verging on 30's National Socialism. My confusion is compounded by the fact I'm not even Scottish and I'm probably voting yes - there's nothing to do with nationalism or naitonality in there. It's about governance - nothing more, nothing less.

[SanFranHibs]

Always been for SNP and indeed my friend and I in our late teens/early twenties used to campaign for them, knocking on doors up and down Leith and Easter Road when we knew we would be lucky to get 8-10% of the vote.

It is not an anti-English stance and if that was the case we could be accused of being anti-Welsh and anti-Northern Ireland. It is believing that Scotland was and should again be a Nation entire unto itself.

This is not about 'will each person be 400 pounds a year worse off or 140 pounds a year better off'. Anyone who believes in Scotland as a Nation should not even contemplate such arguments. This is not about SNP or Labour or minorities like the Scottish Conservatives, it is simply about Nationhood.

This sounds like a cheap mainfesto but as someone who has never had kids...it really is about our children and future generations. We need to get Scotland back to being a nation that produced great thinkers, economists, engineers and inventors. We need to develop an education system and a health service that actually work. We need to spend our wealth more wisely. We need to have the courage to make our own decisions.

Most countries fight and are willing to die for their nationhood. I hope Scotland is not too scared to just put an 'X' in a box.

:saltireflag

[stoneyburn hibs]

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/police-approve-anti-independence-orange-march-1-3479592

Oh deary me.Reckon BT will be very unhappy about this, as am I.

Freedom of speech, a celebration, the tourists will love it as a spectacle. Some of the comments below that article.(rolleyes). Hope it goes ahead without incident.

[JimBHibees]

Always been for SNP and indeed my friend and I in our late teens/early twenties used to campaign for them, knocking on doors up and down Leith and Easter Road when we knew we would be lucky to get 8-10% of the vote.

It is not an anti-English stance and if that was the case we could be accused of being anti-Welsh and anti-Northern Ireland. It is believing that Scotland was and should again be a Nation entire unto itself.

This is not about 'will each person be 400 pounds a year worse off or 140 pounds a year better off'. Anyone who believes in Scotland as a Nation should not even contemplate such arguments. This is not about SNP or Labour or minorities like the Scottish Conservatives, it is simply about Nationhood.

This sounds like a cheap mainfesto but as someone who has never had kids...it really is about our children and future generations. We need to get Scotland back to being a nation that produced great thinkers, economists, engineers and inventors. We need to develop an education system and a health service that actually work. We need to spend our wealth more wisely. We need to have the courage to make our own decisions.

Most countries fight and are willing to die for their nationhood. I hope Scotland is not too scared to just put an 'X' in a box.

:saltireflag

Absolutely it is about self determination and self confidence. The country needs to get a collective backbone and see beyond the biased reporting from the press and National broadcasters. Westminster to me has let us down and even with a number of Labour governments many of which have been bolstered by Scottish MPs we still have chronic poverty in this country out of proportion with other parts of the UK. It is time for us to grow up and not be held back by self serving interests here and down south.

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.yesscotland.net/news/growing-labour-movement-who-want-see-independent-scotland

A number of former Labour Cabinet Minsiters sarting to speak up for a fairer Scotland

[JimBHibees]

Anyone see the appallingly antiScottish concert at Edinburgh castle tonight. No idea firstly why it was in Edinburgh or what it was about and indeed why it was on BBC 1 at prime time. Truly bizarre.. Couldn't have been less Scottish if they tried.

[over the line]

Anyone see the appallingly antiScottish concert at Edinburgh castle tonight. No idea firstly why it was in Edinburgh or what it was about and indeed why it was on BBC 1 at prime time. Truly bizarre.. Couldn't have been less Scottish if they tried.

No I didn't see it. In what way was it anti Scottish?

[Mibbes Aye]

Anyone see the appallingly antiScottish concert at Edinburgh castle tonight. No idea firstly why it was in Edinburgh or what it was about and indeed why it was on BBC 1 at prime time. Truly bizarre.. Couldn't have been less Scottish if they tried.

I didn't see it.

Curious about what made it 'appallingly antiScottish' though?

I'm British and Scottish, feels okay :agree:

Share?

[Bishop Hibee]

Anyone see the appallingly antiScottish concert at Edinburgh castle tonight. No idea firstly why it was in Edinburgh or what it was about and indeed why it was on BBC 1 at prime time. Truly bizarre.. Couldn't have been less Scottish if they tried.

The parts I saw of it were rank rotten bar Paul Heaton and Jacqui Abbot. No idea why it wasn't in Glasgow. Second rate nobodies or stars whose day is/was/never was in the past. Fred McCauley's comment about "supporting the home nations" was straight off the BBC Brit script. Aren't the home "nations" meant to be competing against each other? Thankfully no sign of any royalty which was hardly a surprise given the politically sensitive nature of any appearance in Scotland pre-referendum. As for "less-Scottish", they managed to get the obligatory piper in and the castle! Why do we not get a pearly queen singing "Knees Up Mother Brown" when there is a show from London?

That said, as a republican in favour of Scottish independence, I couldn't give a monkeys about the Empire Games.

[JimBHibees]

I didn't see it.

Curious about what made it 'appallingly antiScottish' though?

I'm British and Scottish, feels okay :agree:

Share?

I was probably over egging it a bit however it seemed truly bizarre firstly that it was.live on beeb 1 at prime time. If it was for the Games it should have been in Glasgow. A welsh presenter with a whole range of rather random guests none of which Scottish apart from a truly horrific Ronnie Corbett intro and a couple of mins with Fred McCauley.

Just think it should have been more of a showcase of Scottish talent than it was. Incredibly poor though a few acts aside.

[Moulin Yarns]

Another blow for the yes campaign as Juncker says no new nations in the EU for 5 years. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10968820/Juncker-deals-blow-to-Alex-Salmonds-EU-claims.html


Or to put it another way, "The hierarchy in Brussels would be unlikely to exclude an independent Scotland from the EU as it is already signed-up to “core EU requirements” for candidate member states on gender equality and workers’ rights.


An independent Scotland’s potential membership would be treated as a “special and separate case” to nations wanting to join from regions such as the Balkans that have yet to satisfy all the rules, a senior EU source stated"

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/independence-juncker-sympathetic-to-scotland-bid-1-3482266#ptlink.fid=15142&isc=1&did=bb25b538e883f1cf84409955177e520fbc3bcd7b&ctp=article

[Raibeart Bruis]

YES a positive first post :wink:

[over the line]

I read in the Sunday Post, that I might get a vote in the referendum after all, being a long term ex- pat, (not a convicted murderer, it was never proven!)? Now that will be one (at least) in the eye for the YES vote! ;)

[Future17]

I read in the Sunday Post, that I might get a vote in the referendum after all, being a long term ex- pat, (not a convicted murderer, it was never proven!)? Now that will be one (at least) in the eye for the YES vote! ;)

99.99% not going to happen. :greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

Anyone see the appallingly antiScottish concert at Edinburgh castle tonight. No idea firstly why it was in Edinburgh or what it was about and indeed why it was on BBC 1 at prime time. Truly bizarre.. Couldn't have been less Scottish if they tried.

I can see that it was anti - Scottish, in as far as the Scots in the bill were appalling. WTF was MacAuley trying to do, slagging off Feed the World? As for wee Ronnie, well.....I mean, well what would the producer have to say about that?

Nobody seemed to have any idea why they were there.

[Moulin Yarns]

I read in the Sunday Post, that I might get a vote in the referendum after all, being a long term ex- pat, (not a convicted murderer, it was never proven!)? Now that will be one (at least) in the eye for the YES vote! ;)

dream on!

[over the line]

dream on!

And there was me thinking you were a fan of democracy? ;)

[over the line]

99.99% not going to happen. :greengrin

As an incurable optimist, that leaves a 00.01% chance. The dream is still on!!!! :D

[Moulin Yarns]

And there was me thinking you were a fan of democracy? ;)

I am, but the lines were drawn a long time ago and to think it would change with less than two months to go to the referendum is pure fantasy.

[Moulin Yarns]

I meant to say,

more pish :wink:


Or to put it another way, "The hierarchy in Brussels would be unlikely to exclude an independent Scotland from the EU as it is already signed-up to “core EU requirements” for candidate member states on gender equality and workers’ rights.


An independent Scotland’s potential membership would be treated as a “special and separate case” to nations wanting to join from regions such as the Balkans that have yet to satisfy all the rules, a senior EU source stated"

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/independence-juncker-sympathetic-to-scotland-bid-1-3482266#ptlink.fid=15142&isc=1&did=bb25b538e883f1cf84409955177e520fbc3bcd7b&ctp=article

[Future17]

And there was me thinking you were a fan of democracy? ;)


I am, but the lines were drawn a long time ago and to think it would change with less than two months to go to the referendum is pure fantasy.

I know you're (half) joking but, given that I have to have this conversation on almost a daily basis, I'm still confused by the logic of some ex-pats towards this.

Why should anyone get to vote on the future of a country in which they do not live? :confused:

[Phil D. Rolls]

I know you're (half) joking but, given that I have to have this conversation on almost a daily basis, I'm still confused by the logic of some ex-pats towards this.

Why should anyone get to vote on the future of a country in which they do not live? :confused:

If they own property in that country?

[The_Todd]

If they own property in that country?

What about foreginers who have holiday homes in Scotland? Do they vote too?

As far as I'm concerned Nationality is not important, it's who lives here now that's important.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What about foreginers who have holiday homes in Scotland? Do they vote too?

As far as I'm concerned Nationality is not important, it's who lives here now that's important.

I don't actually know. I would think they are entitled to one, as they must be paying into the country in the form of council tax.

[Hibrandenburg]

What about foreginers who have holiday homes in Scotland? Do they vote too?

As far as I'm concerned Nationality is not important, it's who lives here now that's important.

Correct, I'd love to cast a vote in the referendum but can't because I'm non resident but that's my choice and it's fully legitimate that those who choose to live in Scotland are the ones who get to decide it's path.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't actually know. I would think they are entitled to one, as they must be paying into the country in the form of council tax.

They're not entitled to one.

[TheReg!]

I'm actually a bit peeved that I can't vote?? In the forces but based in Wales, born and raised in Edinburgh.

[The_Todd]

I'm actually a bit peeved that I can't vote?? In the forces but based in Wales, born and raised in Edinburgh.

Well, it depends. If you're based\serving elsewhere in the UK but registered to vote in Scotland you can. If you're not registered to vote in Scotland then you'd just be like anyone else working and living elsewhere.


http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/who-can-vote-referendum-scottish-independence

Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the Armed Forces or with Her Majesty’s Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.

[TheReg!]

Well, it depends. If you're based\serving elsewhere in the UK but registered to vote in Scotland you can. If you're not registered to vote in Scotland then you'd just be like anyone else working and living elsewhere.

Yeah thanks mate, IMHO I think it's a tad unfair for Scottish people in the forces who are serving all over the World, I have to go/live where I'm told to and at the end if the day it is my choice to live like this, however I would have still liked the opportunity to have my say as I will be living in Scotland when I'm out.

[Future17]

If they own property in that country?

It's a fair point, but I don't agree with it. It still raises the prospect of those who do not live here deciding the fate of those who do.


What about foreginers who have holiday homes in Scotland? Do they vote too?

As far as I'm concerned Nationality is not important, it's who lives here now that's important.

I agree with this. Having a holiday home is not enough; with certain notable exceptions, the main business of your life must be in Scotland.


I'm actually a bit peeved that I can't vote?? In the forces but based in Wales, born and raised in Edinburgh.


Yeah thanks mate, IMHO I think it's a tad unfair for Scottish people in the forces who are serving all over the World, I have to go/live where I'm told to and at the end if the day it is my choice to live like this, however I would have still liked the opportunity to have my say as I will be living in Scotland when I'm out.

If you would be living in Scotland now were it not for your career in the forces, you can register to vote in the referendum. You have to complete a service voter registration form which you can get online. If your unsure, speak to your URO. :aok:

[TheReg!]

If you would be living in Scotland now were it not for your career in the forces, you can register to vote in the referendum. You have to complete a service voter registration form which you can get online. If your unsure, speak to your URO. :aok:[/QUOTE]

Cheers pal, I'll look into it :aok:

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28192293

I think this means we'd be slightly better off financially in an Independent Scotland, according to the BBC.

[Future17]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28192293

I think this means we'd be slightly better off financially in an Independent Scotland, according to the BBC.

It also means people in the rUK would live longer. :wink:

Not sure whether the economic calculations include all those extra birthday presents being bought.

[Geo_1875]

I just received my MPs newsletter and it looks like he wrote it in a fit of pique.

An excerpt reads...

"At the first evidence session Danny Alexander stated a currency union would not be in the UK or an independent Scotland’s interests. For an independent Scotland, it would mean giving up control over YOUR economy. He stated it was like trying to sell someone a new car without a steering wheel attached. You would be giving up all the powers to control YOUR economy. A dire situation for Scottish interests."

The bold capitals are mine but I read it as Mike's not one of us anymore.

[Moulin Yarns]

Hi folks, time to leave Edinburgh on the 13th of September. The hatefest from the west is in town.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/orange-order-march-given-go-ahead-1-3484879

[Betty Boop]

Hi folks, time to leave Edinburgh on the 13th of September. The hatefest from the west is in town.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/orange-order-march-given-go-ahead-1-3484879


Plenty of Lodge members from the East alsoi.

[Hibrandenburg]

Hi folks, time to leave Edinburgh on the 13th of September. The hatefest from the west is in town.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/orange-order-march-given-go-ahead-1-3484879

Surely that can only drum up support for the YES campaign?

[Future17]

Surely that can only drum up support for the YES campaign?

They don't see it that way. However, given that their spokesperson said the other day that there is no such thing as sectarianism in Scotland, you can only guess at where they get their world view from.

[Phil D. Rolls]

New YES poster revealed today.

[Glory Lurker]

New YES poster revealed today.


Oh dear.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Oh dear.

Too soon?

[Hibrandenburg]

New YES poster revealed today.

Just how should we understand this hilarious contribution to the debate?

[The_Todd]

New YES poster revealed today.

No words for that...

[over the line]

New YES poster revealed today.

Obviously the YES voters are Nationalists and many of them on here seem to be Socialists.......... but I'm pretty sure they aren't what your suggesting? Well not all of them anyway ;););)

[Phil D. Rolls]

Just how should we understand this hilarious contribution to the debate?

Clearly a poor attempt at satire, and ill thought out in the present climate. I was trying to point out how nationalism uses events like this as propaganda.

Sorry to all for any offence.

[The_Todd]

Clearly a poor attempt at satire, and ill thought out in the present climate. I was trying to point out how nationalism uses events like this as propaganda.

Sorry to all for any offence.

Both side of this debate contains as many nationalists as the other. Ok, "Yes" may have fringe elements who are voting Yes for nationalist reasons but "No" have their lunatic fringe who are "proud to be British" and are fighting to retain their "British" status, just look at the OO. It seems to me though being overly patriotic about Britishness is completely OK and normal, but Scottish nationalism is somehow "Nazi" in outlook.

When the SNP start looking like they're building up military might, banning other political parties, looking to annexe neighbouring countries by force, start whipping up xenophobic hysteria, turn on immigrants, the sick and disabled then you can compare the Indy movement to the Nazi movement.

As it is the SNP wants to disarm Scotland from nuclear weapons, has no interest in annexing anything, has publibly stated they desire immigration (unlike the right wing press and Conservatives), wish to be a strong member of the EU, aren't persecuting the sick and disabled like the Tories and IDS. Apart from the the word "National" in the SNPs name I can't see how that equates to the Nazis, I suppose because the Nazis has "socialist" in their name you equate the left wing with Nazism too? Not only does your post insult those perfectly normal people who want Scotland to govern itself within the EU, it actually demeans the tyranny which actually went on under the Nazi regime. If "Alicsammon" (as many No voters like to shreik) is the worst the Germans in the 1930s got then there wouldn't have been a war.

Incidentally I'm not even Scottish, and I'd call myself a natural Labour voter not SNP. I, and it seems many people, are turning to Yes because of Englands increasingly xenophobic and nationalist outlook coincidentally. The English increasingly want detached from the rest of Europe and that's their choice. I don't want to go down that road. I do not want Scotland whipped out of the EU because a majority in England do.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Both side of this debate contains as many nationalists as the other. Ok, "Yes" may have fringe elements who are voting Yes for nationalist reasons but "No" have their lunatic fringe who are "proud to be British" and are fighting to retain their "British" status, just look at the OO. It seems to me though being overly patriotic about Britishness is completely OK and normal, but Scottish nationalism is somehow "Nazi" in outlook.

When the SNP start looking like they're building up military might, banning other political parties, looking to annexe neighbouring countries by force, start whipping up xenophobic hysteria, turn on immigrants, the sick and disabled then you can compare the Indy movement to the Nazi movement.

As it is the SNP wants to disarm Scotland from nuclear weapons, has no interest in annexing anything, has publibly stated they desire immigration (unlike the right wing press and Conservatives), wish to be a strong member of the EU, aren't persecuting the sick and disabled like the Tories and IDS. Apart from the the word "National" in the SNPs name I can't see how that equates to the Nazis, I suppose because the Nazis has "socialist" in their name you equate the left wing with Nazism too? Not only does your post insult those perfectly normal people who want Scotland to govern itself within the EU, it actually demeans the tyranny which actually went on under the Nazi regime. If "Alicsammon" (as many No voters like to shreik) is the worst the Germans in the 1930s got then there wouldn't have been a war.

Incidentally I'm not even Scottish, and I'd call myself a natural Labour voter not SNP. I, and it seems many people, are turning to Yes because of Englands increasingly xenophobic and nationalist outlook coincidentally. The English increasingly want detached from the rest of Europe and that's their choice. I don't want to go down that road. I do not want Scotland whipped out of the EU because a majority in England do.

I wish I hadn't attached the Yes campaigns name to it, as I think people have been seeing things that I didnt intend.

I didn't mean to suggest that the SNP are Nazis, they aren't. It was meant to be that all regimes use sport as propaganda. I enjoyed the show the other night, but I couldn't help seeing parallels with the Berlin Olympyics, that's the only similarity.

I am not talking about objectives, I am talking about the tools used to achieve the objectives. Many might say the Nazis wrote the book on propaganda, and our opening ceremony drew on many of their methods - as did the London Olympics etc.

Personally, the only thing I found slightly troubling was the Red Arrows fly past. As we are competing as separate countries, I think the red, white and blue, was inappropriate. It looked more like a show of strength, than a tribute to the opening ceremony.

The thing about the SNP being nationalist and socialist is a really old joke that first came up in the 70s by the way.

[Moulin Yarns]

I wish I hadn't attached the Yes campaigns name to it, as I think people have been seeing things that I didnt intend.

I didn't mean to suggest that the SNP are Nazis, they aren't. It was meant to be that all regimes use sport as propaganda. I enjoyed the show the other night, but I couldn't help seeing parallels with the Berlin Olympyics, that's the only similarity.

I am not talking about objectives, I am talking about the tools used to achieve the objectives. Many might say the Nazis wrote the book on propaganda, and our opening ceremony drew on many of their methods - as did the London Olympics etc.

Personally, the only thing I found slightly troubling was the Red Arrows fly past. As we are competing as separate countries, I think the red, white and blue, was inappropriate. It looked more like a show of strength, than a tribute to the opening ceremony.

The thing about the SNP being nationalist and socialist is a really old joke that first came up in the 70s by the way.

Now would be a good time to stop digging. But Ihave to ask....

How was there a parallel with Berlin? OK the Provost of Glasgow did remind me of Hitler in his Shouty delivery, but apart from that.

I didn't see goosestepping stormtroopers, I saw dancing Tunnocks Teacakes, FFS.

I didn't see xenophobia, or indeed homophobia, I saw a celebration of inclusiveness.

A bit kitch at times, but we can let that go because that's what everybody expects at opening of events like the Commonwealth Games.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Now would be a good time to stop digging. But Ihave to ask....

How was there a parallel with Berlin? OK the Provost of Glasgow did remind me of Hitler in his Shouty delivery, but apart from that.

I didn't see goosestepping stormtroopers, I saw dancing Tunnocks Teacakes, FFS.

I didn't see xenophobia, or indeed homophobia, I saw a celebration of inclusiveness.

A bit kitch at times, but we can let that go because that's what everybody expects at opening of events like the Commonwealth Games.

Simply because both occasions were opportunities for the state to show what they thought was good about their country, and engender a patriotic response.

I'm getting into the sort of mess Bryan Ferry did when he said he admired the SS uniforms. I wasn't praising the Nazis, only saying that their methods have been adapted by other people. Just because they were seeking an end that was wrong, doesn't mean that some of the things they did to achieve it are out of place in our free society.

If people think that makes me a Nazi sympathiser, then anyone that drives a Volkswagen could be accused of the same. Does anybody really think the Skids were Nazis?

[allmodcons]

Both side of this debate contains as many nationalists as the other. Ok, "Yes" may have fringe elements who are voting Yes for nationalist reasons but "No" have their lunatic fringe who are "proud to be British" and are fighting to retain their "British" status, just look at the OO. It seems to me though being overly patriotic about Britishness is completely OK and normal, but Scottish nationalism is somehow "Nazi" in outlook.

When the SNP start looking like they're building up military might, banning other political parties, looking to annexe neighbouring countries by force, start whipping up xenophobic hysteria, turn on immigrants, the sick and disabled then you can compare the Indy movement to the Nazi movement.

As it is the SNP wants to disarm Scotland from nuclear weapons, has no interest in annexing anything, has publibly stated they desire immigration (unlike the right wing press and Conservatives), wish to be a strong member of the EU, aren't persecuting the sick and disabled like the Tories and IDS. Apart from the the word "National" in the SNPs name I can't see how that equates to the Nazis, I suppose because the Nazis has "socialist" in their name you equate the left wing with Nazism too? Not only does your post insult those perfectly normal people who want Scotland to govern itself within the EU, it actually demeans the tyranny which actually went on under the Nazi regime. If "Alicsammon" (as many No voters like to shreik) is the worst the Germans in the 1930s got then there wouldn't have been a war.

Incidentally I'm not even Scottish, and I'd call myself a natural Labour voter not SNP. I, and it seems many people, are turning to Yes because of Englands increasingly xenophobic and nationalist outlook coincidentally. The English increasingly want detached from the rest of Europe and that's their choice. I don't want to go down that road. I do not want Scotland whipped out of the EU because a majority in England do.

What a superb post!

[CropleyWasGod]

Simply because both occasions were opportunities for the state to show what they thought was good about their country, and engender a patriotic response.

I'm getting into the sort of mess Bryan Ferry did when he said he admired the SS uniforms. I wasn't praising the Nazis, only saying that their methods have been adapted by other people. Just because they were seeking an end that was wrong, doesn't mean that some of the things they did to achieve it are out of place in our free society.

If people think that makes me a Nazi sympathiser, then anyone that drives a Volkswagen could be accused of the same. Does anybody really think the Skids were Nazis?

The big difference, though, is that this ceremony wasn't handled by the Government.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The big difference, though, is that this ceremony wasn't handled by the Government.

Do you really believe that?

[Moulin Yarns]

Do you really believe that?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10489718_717618124970816_4948347451269150334_n.jpg ?oh=85d6e334b726a5739f13bb2892e08195&oe=544C6DE1&__gda__=1415206027_4d63c05320b3ba3e92a1110afa35a29 7

[Phil D. Rolls]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10489718_717618124970816_4948347451269150334_n.jpg ?oh=85d6e334b726a5739f13bb2892e08195&oe=544C6DE1&__gda__=1415206027_4d63c05320b3ba3e92a1110afa35a29 7

So that was all an unfortunate misunderstanding about what colour of smoke the Red Arrows would trail?

[CropleyWasGod]

Do you really believe that?
I've no reason not to.

[CropleyWasGod]

So that was all an unfortunate misunderstanding about what colour of smoke the Red Arrows would trail?
The Scottish Government are quoted as saying it's nothing to do with them. The idea for blue smoke came from a private company.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I've no reason not to.p

I respect your view, but I think politicians would find it impossible not to interfere in something that presents their city, or country to the world.

[Moulin Yarns]

So that was all an unfortunate misunderstanding about what colour of smoke the Red Arrows would trail?


The Scottish Government are quoted as saying it's nothing to do with them. The idea for blue smoke came from a private company.

You said it yourself, an unfortunate misunderstanding. Crops said it, and I believe the Red Arrows confirmed it. It was mentioned early in discussions and never mentioned again. Why the media have jumped on it is beyond me.

I saw the opening ceremony for what it was, apiss take of Scotland at the beginning rising to a crescendo of Culture with Nicola Benedetti, Scottish Ballet, and the young South African girl.

Anybody looking for any political or indeed fascist message in that should be sent homeward tae think again. :wink:

FWIW, I was surprised at the medal ceremonies to hear FLower of Scotland as I expected Scotland the Brave. I haven't yet seen a medal ceremony for England but I understand it is Jerusalem that is played, which is fine by me.

[over the line]

New YES poster revealed today.

On a lighter note, I think Claire Balding must be pleased with the way they have portrayed her in this poster, she looks good!?!? ;):D

[Phil D. Rolls]

You said it yourself, an unfortunate misunderstanding. Crops said it, and I believe the Red Arrows confirmed it. It was mentioned early in discussions and never mentioned again. Why the media have jumped on it is beyond me.

I saw the opening ceremony for what it was, apiss take of Scotland at the beginning rising to a crescendo of Culture with Nicola Benedetti, Scottish Ballet, and the young South African girl.

Anybody looking for any political or indeed fascist message in that should be sent homeward tae think again. :wink:

FWIW, I was surprised at the medal ceremonies to hear FLower of Scotland as I expected Scotland the Brave. I haven't yet seen a medal ceremony for England but I understand it is Jerusalem that is played, which is fine by me.

I never suggested it was fascist, I said they were using the same equipment as the fascists.

It also appears that the red arrows don't have a RWB only rule.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-non-political-games/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-non-political-games

Seems they were happy to do the Maltese flag a year ago.

[Phil D. Rolls]

On a lighter note, I think Claire Balding must be pleased with the way they have portrayed her in this poster, she looks good!?!? ;):D

Humour and the Nazis just don't mix.