Scottish Independence

[Moulin Yarns]

The Edinburgh Agreement gave SG the power to set terms for a one off referendum.

The Scottish Government has introduced a referendum bill, not sure if it is now an act to allow for other referenda

[JeMeSouviens]

It rose alot in the two years after but has dropped just as much since late 2019. Not sure why. Quebec is another that had a few referendums but support has faded. I don't think this will happen in Scotland but at the same time it shows the importance of seizing the correct moment

In Catalonia, the indy movement consists of the centre right party which keeps shapeshifting, think it's currently called Junts per Catalunya, and the ERC (Catalan Republican Left). They've been in uneasy coalition for the last few years in Catalonia's autonomous parliament, and routinely fall out over how to progress the indy issue. Junts is keener to move quicker unilaterally, the ERC to do deals with the Spanish gov (currently led by the PSOE - Spanish labour). So, it's a fractured movement and anyway, indy is pretty hypothetical given they know Spain will not allow it and will crack down hard if they try it. They also know they will get limited to no international support.

Quebec's provincial parliament is currently run by the CAQ (Coalition for Quebec's Future), which broke away from the pro-indy PQ. It's centre-right-ish and advocates Quebec nationalism within Canada, ie. everything advantageous to Quebec up to but not including another referendum. Quebec has a much bigger degree of autonomy within Canada's federation than Scotland does in the UK and essentially they've decided that it's enough for them for now and appetite for another ref dropped away.

Both as different to one another as they are to Scotland but yes, I agree, they are a sobering lesson in the folly of assuming inevitability.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins/status/1580205353954082819?t=NgUEbiM8I0FduUt5kP3fAQ&s=19

Yes it's ex Tory MSP Adam Tomkins but he is also a constitutional lawyer and Professor of Law at Glasgow University, and has written many books on the constitution.

He thinks it's game over.

"Those closing submissions of the Lord Advocate’s were quite revealing. “I’m only here because the FM sent me”?! Was that a plea in law for pity, for mercy, or what? Strangely emotional, & failing entirely to meet the legal argument put by the UK’s lawyers in this case. #GameOver"

Yes, I certainly find it hard to believe that somebody with the legal standing of the Lord Advocate genuinely isn't sure whether the proposed legislation falls within the competence of the Scottish Parliament. I think she already knows the answer and the fact she's admitted she's not confident it does so is all but an admission of that. That's obviously not what the Scottish government want to hear, however, and I imagine they've decided the price (how much will this cost incidentally?) of failure at the Supreme Court is worth paying because it will buy them a couple more years of breathing space, during which they can bombard us with the "democracy is being blocked at every turn" mantra.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes, I certainly find it hard to believe that somebody with the legal standing of the Lord Advocate genuinely isn't sure whether the proposed legislation falls within the competence of the Scottish Parliament. I think she already knows the answer and the fact she's admitted she's not confident it does so is all but an admission of that. That's obviously not what the Scottish government want to hear, however, and I imagine they've decided the price (how much will this cost incidentally?) of failure at the Supreme Court is worth paying because it will buy them a couple more years of breathing space, during which they can bombard us with the "democracy is being blocked at every turn" mantra.

Unionists worried about cost of a court hearing while Liz Truss in in Downing Street.[emoji849]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63228605?at_medium=custom7&at_campaign=64&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom4=816F8090-4A4C-11ED-A395-5CB54744363C&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom3=%40BBCScotlandNews


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[He's here!]

Not going to pretend I've sat glued to the goings-on at the Supreme Court this week, but reading through the BBC overview I'm struck by Bain's claims that the proposed referendum bill would be 'politically neutral' and its legal relevance to the Union 'nil'. She can't possibly expect anyone to believe she's serious with this 'advisory' guff.

[Ozyhibby]

Not going to pretend I've sat glued to the goings-on at the Supreme Court this week, but reading through the BBC overview I'm struck by Bain's claims that the proposed referendum bill would be 'politically neutral' and its legal relevance to the Union 'nil'. She can't possibly expect anyone to believe she's serious with this 'advisory' guff.

James thinks so.[emoji106]


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[Skol]

I find myself in an odd position over the Supreme Court case.

It is no surprise that I don’t think independence would be good for Scotland. The case being made by the SNP doesn’t make sense to me as any referendum if it results in a yes vote does have an impact on the union. To argue otherwise is just wrong.

Yet against all of that I don’t like the idea that Scotland doesn’t have a route to choose to be independent.

I think the outcome will be that it’s too early to tell and the onus is back on SNP to decide if they take the bill through holyrood and see if it gets challenged. I cannot see the Supreme Court at this stage saying there is no route to independence, and I don’t think they can conclude the SNP case stacks up.

This all then leads me to consider what is the route to independence, but that of course is the million dollar question. I dont think we should have a referendum as often as the SNP call them until the get a yes vote, but there must be a set of criteria to be used.

[Ozyhibby]

I find myself in an odd position over the Supreme Court case.

It is no surprise that I don’t think independence would be good for Scotland. The case being made by the SNP doesn’t make sense to me as any referendum if it results in a yes vote does have an impact on the union. To argue otherwise is just wrong.

Yet against all of that I don’t like the idea that Scotland doesn’t have a route to choose to be independent.

I think the outcome will be that it’s too early to tell and the onus is back on SNP to decide if they take the bill through holyrood and see if it gets challenged. I cannot see the Supreme Court at this stage saying there is no route to independence, and I don’t think they can conclude the SNP case stacks up.

This all then leads me to consider what is the route to independence, but that of course is the million dollar question. I dont think we should have a referendum as often as the SNP call them until the get a yes vote, but there must be a set of criteria to be used.

That’s a post I would hope everyone can agree on. We may not agree on which way to vote but it should be Scotlands choice.


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[Skol]

That’s a post I would hope everyone can agree on. We may not agree on which way to vote but it should be Scotlands choice.


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Lol, I didn’t think we would ever agree on anything.

The question is what are the criteria. The 2011 majority probably was a fair enough decision and although it was closer than most people expected, it was still a pretty clear vote to remain in the uk

Brexit was a significant change in the union and also one that was emphatically rejected by Scotland. Despite that and also the disaster that was boris Johnson, we didn’t really see a significant move towards yes. Had we done so I think there would have been a second referendum by now.

I am not convinced the current majority at holyrood is sufficient given the way it was made up. I am also pretty sure sturgeon was asked how someone should vote if they liked sturgeon but didn’t want independence and I think was encouraged to vote snp as this election was about covid recovery. My memory could fail me though.

If the polls were showing a sizeable and sustained majority then that could be seen to be bough to warrant a referendum if the holyrood numbers had a majority.

[Mon Dieu4]

I find myself in an odd position over the Supreme Court case.

It is no surprise that I don’t think independence would be good for Scotland. The case being made by the SNP doesn’t make sense to me as any referendum if it results in a yes vote does have an impact on the union. To argue otherwise is just wrong.

Yet against all of that I don’t like the idea that Scotland doesn’t have a route to choose to be independent.

I think the outcome will be that it’s too early to tell and the onus is back on SNP to decide if they take the bill through holyrood and see if it gets challenged. I cannot see the Supreme Court at this stage saying there is no route to independence, and I don’t think they can conclude the SNP case stacks up.

This all then leads me to consider what is the route to independence, but that of course is the million dollar question. I dont think we should have a referendum as often as the SNP call them until the get a yes vote, but there must be a set of criteria to be used.

There is already a criteria set, you have a manifesto and if the most people vote for that then you get to implement what's in your manifesto, people act like it's something underhanded that's been snuck in when people weren't aware

[Skol]

There is already a criteria set, you have a manifesto and if the most people vote for that then you get to implement what's in your manifesto, people act like it's something underhanded that's been snuck in when people weren't aware

That’s not true in the case of independence though as that is clearly a matter reserved to the uk and not Scotland. I am not saying that’s right, but it’s the current position. If you were right we would already have had more than one referendum.

[Mon Dieu4]

That’s not true in the case of independence though as that is clearly a matter reserved to the uk and not Scotland. I am not saying that’s right, but it’s the current position. If you were right we would already have had more than one referendum.

I'm saying that's what it should be, the SNP have romped every single election since 2014, what other criteria should they need to carry out the democratic will of the majority of the Scottish Electorate that voted, they consistently got a higher vote share than any other party in the UK and the Tories have implemented bat**** crazy policies on a lesser percentage, why is it fine for them and not us?

[Skol]

I'm saying that's what it should be, the SNP have romped every single election since 2014, what other criteria should they need to carry out the democratic will of the majority of the Scottish Electorate that voted, they consistently got a higher vote share than any other party in the UK and the Tories have implemented bat**** crazy policies on a lesser percentage, why is it fine for them and not us?

You said the criteria were set. That is different to saying what you think they should be.

I don’t think winning a majority of MSPs is enough for an independence vote. An overall majority could be, but we haven’t had that since 2011. More than 50% of the vote another possible but I don’t think snp have ever achieved that level.

[Mon Dieu4]

You said the criteria were set. That is different to saying what you think they should be.

I don’t think winning a majority of MSPs is enough for an independence vote. An overall majority could be, but we haven’t had that since 2011. More than 50% of the vote another possible but I don’t think snp have ever achieved that level.

An overall majority of MSPs is almost impossible, we've had one freak occurrence when it happened but the system is by design skewed so it's almost an impossibility, that's not a fair metric

PS there is an overall majority of MSP who favour independence just now

[Callum_62]

You said the criteria were set. That is different to saying what you think they should be.

I don’t think winning a majority of MSPs is enough for an independence vote. An overall majority could be, but we haven’t had that since 2011. More than 50% of the vote another possible but I don’t think snp have ever achieved that level.An overall majority in a system designed to not get an overall majority?

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[Ozyhibby]

You said the criteria were set. That is different to saying what you think they should be.

I don’t think winning a majority of MSPs is enough for an independence vote. An overall majority could be, but we haven’t had that since 2011. More than 50% of the vote another possible but I don’t think snp have ever achieved that level.

I think a majority in the Scottish parliament should be enough as it’s a PR system so pretty closely represents the countries voters.
I’m also comfortable with there being a time set between referendums the way there is with NI. I think theirs is 7 years but I’d be comfortable with up to 10. That’s for negotiations when arranging this vote though.
Brexit has made this vote possible. Without it, I don’t think we would be close to having it on the agenda yet.


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[He's here!]

An overall majority in a system designed to not get an overall majority?

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The system is skewed by the independence issue though, with the SNP the default option for yes voters, thus giving them a freakish number of seat as the votes for the pro-union parties are split.

[Ozyhibby]

The system is skewed by the independence issue though, with the SNP the default option for yes voters, thus giving them a freakish number of seat as the votes for the pro-union parties are split.

It’s not skewed. The SNP just offer something lots of people want to vote for.


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[JimBHibees]

An overall majority of MSPs is almost impossible, we've had one freak occurrence when it happened but the system is by design skewed so it's almost an impossibility, that's not a fair metric

PS there is an overall majority of MSP who favour independence just now

Yep the majority is there now. Should be a second vote now

[grunt]

The system is skewed by the independence issue though, with the SNP the default option for yes voters, thus giving them a freakish number of seat as the votes for the pro-union parties are split.

This is actually laugh out loud funny. It's skewed because all those who want independence are on the same side?

[He's here!]

This is actually laugh out loud funny. It's skewed because all those who want independence are on the same side?

No, you've missed my point.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcphilipsim/status/1580476361868644352?s=46&t=7KO_ZWM_bIFusoQdWbUpcQ


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[cabbageandribs1875]

well said if yer on here, juan is a grade A detestable Divi

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/311588802_438737461696817_9174694526984978826_n.jp g?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=ggornh4Min4AX-yM-4e&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AT-6z14Q6YVxDrJ1pif-ZZJXFoZzHxbTpst3g0JM1WmM4Q&oe=634DA46C

[grunt]

If anyone was wondering how the BBC would assist the Tories and Unionists in their struggle against independence should take a look at last night's BBC Question Time. Filmed in Scotland, it had a "representative" audience containing just ONE person who admitted to supporting independence. This isn't news and current affairs reporting, it's Government propaganda.

[The Harp Awakes]

If anyone was wondering how the BBC would assist the Tories and Unionists in their struggle against independence should take a look at last night's BBC Question Time. Filmed in Scotland, it had a "representative" audience containing just ONE person who admitted to supporting independence. This isn't news and current affairs reporting, it's Government propaganda.

It came from my home town of Musselburgh. A Holyrood constituency which is dominated by the SNP and where torys are like hens teeth. And yet the good old BBC still managed to reel out Tory after Tory in the audience. At one point Fiona Bruce had to list the multiple questions tory hecklers were raising with John Swinney.

Meanwhile, No1 Tory boy, the cheating linesman, D ROSS got off lightly despite his Westminster government falling apart at the seams and destroying the UK's finances.

The BBC aka unionist TV.

[grunt]

The BBC aka unionist TV.
We're going to see a lot more of this as the independence debate continues.

[JeMeSouviens]

It came from my home town of Musselburgh. A Holyrood constituency which is dominated by the SNP and where torys are like hens teeth. And yet the good old BBC still managed to reel out Tory after Tory in the audience. At one point Fiona Bruce had to list the multiple questions tory hecklers were raising with John Swinney.

Meanwhile, No1 Tory boy, the cheating linesman, D ROSS got off lightly despite his Westminster government falling apart at the seams and destroying the UK's finances.

The BBC aka unionist TV.

Undecided voters :faf:

[James310]

I really enjoyed QT last night. To suggest there was just 1 single Indy supporter is obviously not true. Plenty of comments from the audience members who were clearly non Tory and pro Indy.

Swinney was woefully bad as per usual. His answer on currency was weak.

[grunt]

I really enjoyed QT last night. To suggest there was just 1 single Indy supporter is obviously not true.
She asked the audience to nod if they were pro- independence. She then said there was one person who nodded.

Of course you enjoyed it, it must have been a dream for you. Sarwar and Ross given an easy time by Bruce who interrupted Swinney every time he opened his mouth, and a selected BBC audience full of Tory plants all saying why independence would fail. That was a catnip episode for you.

Swinney was woefully bad as per usual. His answer on currency was weak.You really need to get some perspective.

[James310]

She asked the audience to nod if they were pro- independence. She then said there was one person who nodded.

Of course you enjoyed it, it must have been a dream for you. Sarwar and Ross given an easy time by Bruce who interrupted Swinney every time he opened his mouth, and a selected BBC audience full of Tory plants all saying why independence would fail. That was a catnip episode for you.
You really need to get some perspective.

You and others may have some valid points about the BBC but stuff like suggesting there was a single Indy supporter in the audience is clearly just not true. The first 3 comments after the initial question were slagging the Tory's off and then there was the lady who got the biggest laugh when she asked Douglas Ross if he thought Liz Truss would win the next GE, and he said Yes. Then the lady at the front who was clearly anti Tory and pro Indy. Plus many more examples.

Like the comment about Laura Kuenssberg not interrupting Liz Truss and she did many times, or the BBC mentioned all the Mercury Music Nominees except the Scottish one, again just not true.

Swinney impressed you with his answer on currency in what way?

[ronaldo7]

It came from my home town of Musselburgh. A Holyrood constituency which is dominated by the SNP and where torys are like hens teeth. And yet the good old BBC still managed to reel out Tory after Tory in the audience. At one point Fiona Bruce had to list the multiple questions tory hecklers were raising with John Swinney.

Meanwhile, No1 Tory boy, the cheating linesman, D ROSS got off lightly despite his Westminster government falling apart at the seams and destroying the UK's finances.

The BBC aka unionist TV.

I know of at least 40 SNP supporters who requested to go on. 1 got through.

Well known Tories from East Lothian in attendance

[The Harp Awakes]

Undecided voters :faf:

Aye 3 'undecided' voters who each proceeded to undermine the case for independence :faf:

[James310]

I know of at least 40 SNP supporters who requested to go on. 1 got through.

Well known Tories from East Lothian in attendance

So do you agree there was only 1 Independence supporter in the whole audience or not?

[James310]

Aye 3 'undecided' voters who each went on to undermine the case for independence :faf:

They had questions, one of the men even said if you sorted out the currency issue you would have my vote. Is asking what currency we would use undermining the case for Independence? How?

[ronaldo7]

So do you agree there was only 1 Independence supporter in the whole audience or not?

I don't, and have never said their was. Have you mixed me up with another poster again.

[The Harp Awakes]

They had questions, one of the men even said if you sorted out the currency issue you would have my vote. Is asking what currency we would use undermining the case for Independence? How?

Of course it's not. But if they were true undecided voters you'd think they'd show a bit of balance in also saying what it is about the UK which is making them consider voting for independence. Balance was completely absent.

[Skol]

I have given up with the bbc so wasn’t aware question time was from Scotland until I read it here. I took the prompt to go watch it.

For those that say this was government propaganda and only had one nationalist in it, you really should watch it again. The first four questions were anti Tory policy and received a large applause. I also thought swinney did very well at this part.

Questions later moved on to independence and sturgeons comments and that was when swinney started to falter in much the same was Ross did when trying to defend truss. There were a good number of nationalist supporters who made points in the debate.

I thought the questions asked were a fair reflection of the key issued we face right now.

I actually quite enjoyed watching it.

[Glory Lurker]

Come on. This pub's crap. Let's move on, eh?

[WeeRussell]

Considering Swinney isn’t held in great regard by many, I thought he did quite well last night, albeit his job wasn’t the most difficult when opposite that cretin Douglas Ross (who got off very very lightly and managed to deflect onto Swinney with some random point any time he was challenged by the audience).

The woman down front left of the audience near the end spoke well (again Douglas Ross didn’t give her any sort of answer and started screeching about John Swinney instead).

[J-C]

They had questions, one of the men even said if you sorted out the currency issue you would have my vote. Is asking what currency we would use undermining the case for Independence? How?

Do you ever feel lonely in here?

[pollution]

Come on. This pub's crap. Let's move on, eh?



Aye, close it down and build student flats on it !

[StevieC]

They had questions, one of the men even said if you sorted out the currency issue you would have my vote. Is asking what currency we would use undermining the case for Independence? How?

That particular “undecided” could be seen clapping very energetically at a pro-union/anti-SNP comment at a later stage.

The telling point was when Bruce asked for Independence supporters to make themselves known .. I can guarantee that if that had been a true reflection of Independence supporters from East Lothian it would have got a much bigger response than the one woman that visibly nodded.

There were SNP/Independence supporters in the audience as you could tell from the level of clapping, but it certainly wasn’t proportional when compared to the applause that pro-union comments received.

[McD]

Of course it's not. But if they were true undecided voters you'd think they'd show a bit of balance in also saying what it is about the UK which is making them consider voting for independence. Balance was completely absent.


actually, no, I don’t think they would.

if someone is undecided, and currency is something that’s part of that indecision, they’ll ask a question about it. They won’t then go on to say ‘thanks for answering, here’s what is causing me to doubt the union/uk’. That makes no sense on the context of why they asked the question.

they could go on to ask a question to the unionist panel members about something that they have doubts about the union on, but that’s a separate point, they wouldn’t then go on to explain why they’d consider voting for independence.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221016/9a12f0b17a07e9e3310a3008764e1536.jpg

Herald got a new editor?


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[marinello59]

I have given up with the bbc so wasn’t aware question time was from Scotland until I read it here. I took the prompt to go watch it.
:agree::agree:
For those that say this was government propaganda and only had one nationalist in it, you really should watch it again. The first four questions were anti Tory policy and received a large applause. I also thought swinney did very well at this part.

Questions later moved on to independence and sturgeons comments and that was when swinney started to falter in much the same was Ross did when trying to defend truss. There were a good number of nationalist supporters who made points in the debate.

I thought the questions asked were a fair reflection of the key issued we face right now.

I actually quite enjoyed watching it.

:agree:
People see what they want to see.

[wookie70]

You and others may have some valid points about the BBC but stuff like suggesting there was a single Indy supporter in the audience is clearly just not true. The first 3 comments after the initial question were slagging the Tory's off and then there was the lady who got the biggest laugh when she asked Douglas Ross if he thought Liz Truss would win the next GE, and he said Yes. Then the lady at the front who was clearly anti Tory and pro Indy. Plus many more examples.


There are Tory MPs actively plotting against the Tory leadership. Just because people were applauding and the comments early on were against the Tories doesn't mean they were from Yes voters. They may all have been Tories given the almighty mess in Westminster. After the first part it was pretty much one way traffic and there is absolutely no way that audience was balanced.

[Callum_62]

There are Tory MPs actively plotting against the Tory leadership. Just because people were applauding and the comments early on were against the Tories doesn't mean they were from Yes voters. They may all have been Tories given the almighty mess in Westminster. After the first part it was pretty much one way traffic and there is absolutely no way that audience was balanced.In a country thats nigh on split on the issue it shouldnt be hard at all to get a balanced audience

Weirdly it was heavily 'balanced' towards the UK view

Weird it never seems to be heavily balanced in indys favor

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[marinello59]

In a country thats nigh on split on the issue it shouldnt be hard at all to get a balanced audience

Weirdly it was heavily 'balanced' towards the UK view

Weird it never seems to be heavily balanced in indys favor

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I know I’ll get pelters for saying this but there’s a sizeable amount of people in Scotland who aren’t obsessing on Independence and ignoring all other issues. The inability of so many in our country to only view things through a constitutional prism is deeply depressing.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/national/ciaran-martin-a-national-question-the-supreme-court-cant-answer-3881530

Interesting article.


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[Callum_62]

I know I’ll get pelters for saying this but there’s a sizeable amount of people in Scotland who aren’t obsessing on Independence and ignoring all other issues. The inability of so many in our country to only view things through a constitutional prism is deeply depressing.Wasn't one of the main themes of the programme indy tho?

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[marinello59]

Wasn't one of the main themes of the programme indy tho?

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It was one the topics discussed. Whether you label it as a main theme is surely down to each individual.

As an aside we won’t win the votes we need for Indy by talking to ourselves. We win them by making the case to hostile rooms.

[Just Alf]

It was one the topics discussed. Whether you label it as a main theme is surely down to each individual.

As an aside we won’t win the votes we need for Indy by talking to ourselves. We win them by making the case to hostile rooms.Was more balanced than expected after what I'd read on here.

That said, Swinney answered a question on the currency and was immediately talked over while answering so we couldnt hear what he said, then later he was accused of not answering!

[Jack]

To want to go along to a TV programme like that you have to be politically motivated in the first place. If you're aligned, even just as a voter, with any party your views will reflect that.

In Scotland, where you know the main theme will be independence its a nonsense to suggest anyone going along will be an undecided.

So nobody in that audience when asked about independence is going to say 'Oh I dinny really ken, I huvnae thought aboot it.' Or 'I dinnae care, I'm undecided.'

[He's here!]

Salmond claims to be exploring an alternative route through the courts:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63277611

[James310]

Looks like tomorrow the currency policy will be announced, and from what Swinney said it's no change to the Sustainable Growth Commission report. Richard Murphy a favoured economist and supporter of Indy calls Sterlingisation an economic disaster for Scotland and says it would destroy hope for a new Independent Scotland. Robin McAlpine of Common Weal (referenced here a number of times) who is another pro Indy supporter says sterlingisation is a terrible idea. That's just the Indy supporters, I won't post what non Indy supporters think of it.

What I find the strangest of all is the total reversal of position from Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. In 2014 keeping the pound was according to Sturgeon and Swinney in the best interests of Scotland, it would "make no sense" to ask companies who trade between Scotland and England to exchange currency (now it must make sense?) and it would be bad for prices and billions of pounds of trade to have a separate currency (is it now good for prices and trade?) and to top it off Nicola Sturgeon said a separate currency would mean transaction costs of hundreds of millions, but now that's to be embraced.

Sorry to piss on the parade but while people are angry they aren't stupid.

Latest poll below proves this, this was taken only in the last 10 days.

Scottish Independence Voting Intention:

NO: 49% (+4)
YES: 46% (+1)
Don't Know: 5% (=)

Don't knows Excluded:

NO: 52% (+2)
YES: 48% (-2)

But Nicola Sturgeon, done so much for Indy....

(Cue incoming...let's keep it civil though)

[Mr Grieves]

Sorry to piss on the parade but while people are angry they aren't stupid.


So people that support indy are stupid, aye?

[James310]

So people that support indy are stupid, aye?

No, you are reading that wrong. I am saying the people that are angry with everything that's going on right now and looking for a way out are not buying into the SNP plan/proposal. They aren't stupid as it's full of holes. If there was a really credible plan for Indy don't you think Yes would be polling way higher than it is now, not going down in the polls. I would never call Indy supporters stupid but have heard non Indy supporters called much worse on here.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23052240.wellbeing-case-puts-scottish-independence-vote-61-per-cent-bombshell-poll-finds/


61% support for independence (if you want a fair and healthy Scotland)

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-pound-independent-scotland-would-introduce-new-currency-first-minister-nicola-sturgeon-announces

Scottish pound it is. A welcome development.
Two competing visions for Scotland’s future on show today. I know which I prefer.


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[ronaldo7]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scottish-pound-independent-scotland-would-introduce-new-currency-first-minister-nicola-sturgeon-announces

Scottish pound it is. A welcome development.
Two competing visions for Scotland’s future on show today. I know which I prefer.


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Delighted that they've taken this stepped approach. Balanced and won't scare the pensioners. 😂

[cabbageandribs1875]

(1) David ross on Twitter: "Scotlands first minister just given a 30 min speach to the people of scotland , and is answering EVERY SINGLE JOURNALIST IN THE ROOM Liz truss gave a 5 min garbled Uturn on Friday, answered 4 questions then ran out of the room Nicola is a leader ,Liz ? Well ill let you decide !!" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/RossDross210469/status/1581971448406503424?t=It7pKKZX4lAjYtBsRX2rOw&s=19&fbclid=IwAR3a-Vtywfj4OmCm55COiwO0m3dU0VoUkEeC0K5B0HcDdLOGM7m26MP P3YI)

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/310661397_441832541387309_5410564391710279464_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=QGvUzhNcOM8AX8njhK4&tn=vIvSFNl06GFFe0Qb&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-GoWwx9EdxOAA0NCOXPzeLfxRtDVJaTNjmYfKTRjZXSg&oe=635228AC

[WeeRussell]

Looks like tomorrow the currency policy will be announced, and from what Swinney said it's no change to the Sustainable Growth Commission report. Richard Murphy a favoured economist and supporter of Indy calls Sterlingisation an economic disaster for Scotland and says it would destroy hope for a new Independent Scotland. Robin McAlpine of Common Weal (referenced here a number of times) who is another pro Indy supporter says sterlingisation is a terrible idea. That's just the Indy supporters, I won't post what non Indy supporters think of it.

What I find the strangest of all is the total reversal of position from Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. In 2014 keeping the pound was according to Sturgeon and Swinney in the best interests of Scotland, it would "make no sense" to ask companies who trade between Scotland and England to exchange currency (now it must make sense?) and it would be bad for prices and billions of pounds of trade to have a separate currency (is it now good for prices and trade?) and to top it off Nicola Sturgeon said a separate currency would mean transaction costs of hundreds of millions, but now that's to be embraced.

Sorry to piss on the parade but while people are angry they aren't stupid.

Latest poll below proves this, this was taken only in the last 10 days.

Scottish Independence Voting Intention:

NO: 49% (+4)
YES: 46% (+1)
Don't Know: 5% (=)

Don't knows Excluded:

NO: 52% (+2)
YES: 48% (-2)

But Nicola Sturgeon, done so much for Indy....

(Cue incoming...let's keep it civil though)

Just to highlight one part of your excited wee announcement - I’m racking my brains to try and think if anything has changed in terms of trade, the economy, and our currency since 2014 that means a change of position perhaps wouldn’t be as “strange” as you’re making out.

[Ozyhibby]

Just to highlight one part of your excited wee announcement - I’m racking my brains to try and think if anything has changed in terms of trade, the economy, and our currency since 2014 that means a change of position perhaps wouldn’t be as “strange” as you’re making out.

Sterlingisation in no longer the policy, so the whole post is a bit pointless.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Will the Scottish pound be linked to the uk rate?

[James310]

Sterlingisation in no longer the policy, so the whole post is a bit pointless.


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Eh? The use of the pound for X number of years and then a new Scottish currency is Sterlingisation. What did you think sterlingisation was/is?

[James310]

https://twitter.com/Jonathon_Shafi/status/1581964421139550209?t=RMNKjbQvTlVIPTGLjLa35g&s=19

From independence day, Scotland would continue to use the pound Sterling.” Even after the negotiations, which could take years, the Bank of England and UK institutions would retain monetary control. After everything in the last few years - we still end up with Sterlingisation.

[ronaldo7]

Sterlingisation in no longer the policy, so the whole post is a bit pointless.


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The crystal ball must have been wonky.

[Mon Dieu4]

https://twitter.com/Jonathon_Shafi/status/1581964421139550209?t=RMNKjbQvTlVIPTGLjLa35g&s=19

From independence day, Scotland would continue to use the pound Sterling.” Even after the negotiations, which could take years, the Bank of England and UK institutions would retain monetary control. After everything in the last few years - we still end up with Sterlingisation.

May as well give in now then eh

[James310]

The crystal ball must have been wonky.

If using sterling isn't sterlingisation what is?

[CropleyWasGod]

https://twitter.com/Jonathon_Shafi/status/1581964421139550209?t=RMNKjbQvTlVIPTGLjLa35g&s=19

From independence day, Scotland would continue to use the pound Sterling.” Even after the negotiations, which could take years, the Bank of England and UK institutions would retain monetary control. After everything in the last few years - we still end up with Sterlingisation.

"End up with" a Scottish currency is how I read it.

[James310]

"End up with" a Scottish currency is how I read it.

After using sterling for an undefined period of years? That's exactly what sterlingisation is.

[Ozyhibby]

If using sterling isn't sterlingisation what is?

The report explicitly says we will have a Scottish currency. [emoji849]


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[James310]

The report explicitly says we will have a Scottish currency. [emoji849]


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Yes, after using sterling for an undefined period of time? That's what sterlingisation is.

Did you think sterlingisation was using sterling all the time? Really?

[ronaldo7]

If using sterling isn't sterlingisation what is?

Did you listen to the FM?

We're moving to a Scottish currency.

You make it sound like we're staying with sterling indefinitely.

[James310]

I suggest people read up on what sterlingisation actually is before thinking they have "got me". 😂

[James310]

Did you listen to the FM?

We're moving to a Scottish currency.

After using sterling for an undefined period of time? How many years?

You clearly don't understand what sterlingisation means. What is your definition of it?

[ronaldo7]

After using sterling for an undefined period of time? How many years?

You clearly don't understand what sterlingisation means. What is your definition of it?

I know what it is thanks for the patronising response but we're not staying there.

The full picture is that we're moving to a Scottish currency. Something you didn't mention.

[ronaldo7]

After using sterling for an undefined period of time? How many years?

You clearly don't understand what sterlingisation means. What is your definition of it?

From this response, you clearly didn't listen to the FM.

[James310]

From this response, you clearly didn't listen to the FM.

So is the policy not to use sterling for an as yet undefined period of time and then introduce a new currency at some point that nobody knows?

Which bit have I got wrong?

Using sterling after Independence is Sterlingisation!

If it had been new currency on day 1 that's a game changer, it's not. It's use sterling!

[James310]

I know what it is thanks for the patronising response but we're not staying there.

The full picture is that we're moving to a Scottish currency. Something you didn't mention.

Moving to a new currency was also part of sterlingisation. Sorry but this is kind of pointless if you don't even understand your own parties policy.

[superfurryhibby]

If the SNP want to convince voters that they can deliver a better Scotland, maybe they could try being a bit more radical. People want a more left of centre government, (much) more social housing, socially accountable planning and development, land reform, a national energy policy that actually delivers affordable fuel, more tax for the highest earners and a reversal of the whole PFI scam.

Some of the above may not be in their direct gift, but perhaps they could try being less passive and stop playing it so safe.

I will always remain committed to independence, but I feel deeply disenchanted with the Sturgeon controlled SNP.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/Jonathon_Shafi/status/1581966611019243520?t=IiuCUs0mJFM2X_uWIxHYmQ&s=19

This guy is an Indy supporter, clearly references a "transition out of sterlingisation" using sterling for 1 year or 10 years is Sterlingisation.

[Ozyhibby]

If the SNP want to convince voters that they can deliver a better Scotland, maybe they could try being a bit more radical. People want a more left of centre government, (much) more social housing, socially accountable planning and development, land reform, a national energy policy that actually delivers affordable fuel, more tax for the highest earners and a reversal of the whole PFI scam.

Some of the above may not be in their direct gift, but perhaps they could try being less passive and stop playing it so safe.

I will always remain committed to independence, but I feel deeply disenchanted with the Sturgeon controlled SNP.

Because they are not doing things you know they are not allowed to do, you are unhappy with them?


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[ronaldo7]

So is the policy not to use sterling for an as yet undefined period of time and then introduce a new currency at some point that nobody knows?

Which bit have I got wrong?

Using sterling after Independence is Sterlingisation!

If it had been new currency on day 1 that's a game changer, it's not. It's use sterling!

If you'd bothered to listen, you'd have the answers first hand, rather than getting it from others. Clearly your post last night never got the traction you hoped for.

A new day to try for a reaction. 😂

Enjoy your day. 🌞

[James310]

If you'd bothered to listen, you'd have the answers first hand, rather than getting it from others. Clearly your post last night never got the traction you hoped for.

A new day to try for a reaction. 😂

Enjoy your day. 🌞

So ignore and move on?

So is the plan to use Sterling for an undefined period of time after Independence?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/Jonathon_Shafi/status/1581966611019243520?t=IiuCUs0mJFM2X_uWIxHYmQ&s=19

This guy is an Indy supporter, clearly references a "transition out of sterlingisation" using sterling for 1 year or 10 years is Sterlingisation.

I’m quite sure people will understand a transition period.
There will be transition periods on other aspects as well. Not everything will be done on day one.


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[James310]

I’m quite sure people will understand a transition period.
There will be transition periods on other aspects as well. Not everything will be done on day one.


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Yes, and that was always the case. Using sterling is funnily enough called sterlingisation.

[Stairway 2 7]

Will the Scottish pound be linked to the uk rate?

Apparently that will be up to the first parliament post independence to decide

[Mon Dieu4]

So is the policy not to use sterling for an as yet undefined period of time and then introduce a new currency at some point that nobody knows?

Which bit have I got wrong?

Using sterling after Independence is Sterlingisation!

If it had been new currency on day 1 that's a game changer, it's not. It's use sterling!

Let's face it, if the SNP somehow found a cure for cancer you'd still be whinging they didn't find it sooner

[Stairway 2 7]

PeterAdamSmith
Key currency points:
1. Independent 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 will keep 🇬🇧£ before moving to 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿£. How long will that take? FM can’t say.
2. FM says 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 joining EU presents huge economic opportunities, but independent 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 cannot join the EU while using 🇬🇧£.
3. FM says 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 “would not qualify” to adopt Euro

My understanding from ScotGov is the reason Scotland “would not qualify” to adopt the Euro is related to not having a Scottish currency and size of deficit. But FM says joining Euro isn’t her preferred plan anyway

[Ozyhibby]

PeterAdamSmith
Key currency points:
1. Independent [emoji2528] will keep [emoji636]£ before moving to [emoji2528]£. How long will that take? FM can’t say.
2. FM says [emoji2528] joining EU presents huge economic opportunities, but independent [emoji2528] cannot join the EU while using [emoji636]£.
3. FM says [emoji2528] “would not qualify” to adopt Euro

My understanding from ScotGov is the reason Scotland “would not qualify” to adopt the Euro is related to not having a Scottish currency and size of deficit. But FM says joining Euro isn’t her preferred plan anyway

Gives an indication that the transition period before moving to Scottish pound will be reasonably short due to the desire to join EU asap.


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[Iain G]

I’m quite sure people will understand a transition period.
There will be transition periods on other aspects as well. Not everything will be done on day one.


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So not rebuilding Hadrians Wall on day one then? :greengrin

At least they are saying they have a £20bn budget to do so (assuming that is in Sterling and not the new Tartan Poond?)

[greenlex]

Who cares what the currency is? Is it really that important? I think having control of your own affairs and going down your own path for better or worse is of far greater importance than what colour or insignia is on your cash.

[Stairway 2 7]

Were going to have to be pro oil, if we are to cut deficit and build up central bank. Open camo? If not huge austerity.

[Santa Cruz]

I’m quite sure people will understand a transition period.
There will be transition periods on other aspects as well. Not everything will be done on day one.


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Like the transition from DWP PIP to the Scottish Benefits Agency Adult Disability payment. I recall reading it would be "seamless", seems now it will take until 2024 to complete the transition. I believe this ONE benefit was announced as transferring over in 2018. Pandemic aside, it still looks like it will take 4 years minimum to deliver ONE benefit. It wasn't even a complex transition btw, they've adopted the exact same point scoring system for new claimants.

Then add in the primary school free meal roll out, it's stalled at P5, what is so difficult about providing meals for a further 2 year groups in the same school building. Imo people don't understand very very slow transition periods.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1581993208656977920?t=0GmmRNMuilJd2pPp_r4W4g&s=19

Richard Murphy, an "expert" speaks.

"In three simple paras the SNP shreds its economic credibility in a way only Truss and Kwarteng have done before, because quite literally no country can do what this plan published by Sturgeon this morning suggests. Using sterling would economically ruin an independent Scotland"

But no, using sterling isn't sterlingisation according to some.

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1581993208656977920?t=0GmmRNMuilJd2pPp_r4W4g&s=19

Richard Murphy, an "expert" speaks.

"In three simple paras the SNP shreds its economic credibility in a way only Truss and Kwarteng have done before, because quite literally no country can do what this plan published by Sturgeon this morning suggests. Using sterling would economically ruin an independent Scotland"

But no, using sterling isn't sterlingisation according to some.

Is there a currency that wouldn't "ruin an independant Scotland?"

[emoji1787][emoji1787]

Fact is the UK is an outlier in the world of how we function - and these days we look more and more like a joke "union" than anything else

There will also be a group than just decries everything simply due to the words 'independant Scotland'



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[James310]

Is there a currency that wouldn't "ruin an independant Scotland?"

[emoji1787][emoji1787]

Fact is the UK is an outlier in the world of how we function - and these days we look more and more like a joke "union" than anything else

There will also be a group than just decries everything simply due to the words 'independant Scotland'



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So why do you disagree with him? If you do?

[greenlex]

If we are going to have to rely on oil for a bit longer it would make sense to adopt the US dollar or peg the Scottish currency to it.

[Callum_62]

So why do you disagree with him? If you do?I'd like to see him advise on what would work?

Or is he saying Scotland being independant is simply not possible

I simply don't believe that Scotland wouldn't be anything other than successful as an independant country - ofcourse with bumps and decisions to be made along the way

I'd rather the decisions were fully in the hands of the 5 million folk who live here and want there wishes fulfilled or compromises made the way they want than being driven by the absolute **** show we are currently chained to

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[ronaldo7]

So ignore and move on?

So is the plan to use Sterling for an undefined period of time after Independence?

I'd suggest the next time the FM has a policy paper to release, that you sit and listen to it rather than coming onto a football message board for the answers.

The political space of the holy ground is good for answering some questions but not all. I'm sure you could always read the paper for yourself though, and it'd save you a lot of trouble. In other news, we're moving to a Scottish currency.

[Kato]

What currency will England use?

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[James310]

I'd like to see him advise on what would work?

Or is he saying Scotland being independant is simply not possible

I simply don't believe that Scotland wouldn't be anything other than successful as an independant country - ofcourse with bumps and decisions to be made along the way

I'd rather the decisions were fully in the hands of the 5 million folk who live here and want there wishes fulfilled or compromises made the way they want than being driven by the absolute **** show we are currently chained to

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He has laid that out in detail, he believes it's a brand new currency on day 1. That also comes with massive risks to pensions, savings and mortgages and that's according to the SNP, not me.

The Brexiteer argument was similar, let the people of the UK who live here make the decisions about the UK as they are best placed.

[James310]

I'd suggest the next time the FM has a policy paper to release, that you sit and listen to it rather than coming onto a football message board for the answers.

The political space of the holy ground is good for answering some questions but not all. I'm sure you could always read the paper for yourself though, and it'd save you a lot of trouble. In other news, we're moving to a Scottish currency.

You seem to think moving to a new Scottish currency is a new thing?

The Sustainable Growth Commission report was the currency policy of the SNP and has been for some time now, it was always advocating keeping the pound for X number of years before moving to a new Scottish currency. Today's announcement is absolutely nothing new, it was always that.

Here is a SNP announcement from 2018 that confirms that incase you were in any doubt.

https://www.snp.org/snp-growth-commission/


"The Growth Commission has also set out a road map to an independent currency, using the pound for a transitional period, with a series of tests for future currency decisions."

Here is the report from the BBC in 2019 confirming this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48069470.amp

The headline is the big giveaway.

"SNP members change leadership's currency plan"

[JeMeSouviens]

I'd like to see him advise on what would work?

Or is he saying Scotland being independant is simply not possible

I simply don't believe that Scotland wouldn't be anything other than successful as an independant country - ofcourse with bumps and decisions to be made along the way

I'd rather the decisions were fully in the hands of the 5 million folk who live here and want there wishes fulfilled or compromises made the way they want than being driven by the absolute **** show we are currently chained to

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Murphy is a proponent of Modern Monetary Theory (aka the fire up the printing presses approach to economic problems). For any state to embrace this, let alone a new state with no institutional track record, would be beyond economic orthodoxy to say the least!

The last few weeks have shown us the dangers of pushing risky strategies without building credibility first. Imo, the SG approach of being basically safe and boring for a few years is the right one.

The current Unionist strategy of adopting the arguments of the more impatient fringe elements of the Indy movement is quite funny.

[Callum_62]

He has laid that out in detail, he believes it's a brand new currency on day 1. That also comes with massive risks to pensions, savings and mortgages and that's according to the SNP, not me.

The Brexiteer argument was similar, let the people of the UK who live here make the decisions about the UK as they are best placed.The brexit argument is fundamentally different though IMHO

I'll never agree with the set up of the UK where each country is taken at a 1:1 vote share which is obviously dominated by the much larger countries views

Is there another union set up like it?

How does the EU votes work for example?

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[James310]

Murphy is a proponent of Modern Monetary Theory (aka the fire up the printing presses approach to economic problems). For any state to embrace this, let alone a new state with no institutional track record, would be beyond economic orthodoxy to say the least!

The last few weeks have shown us the dangers of pushing risky strategies without building credibility first. Imo, the SG approach of being basically safe and boring for a few years is the right one.

The current Unionist strategy of adopting the arguments of the more impatient fringe elements of the Indy movement is quite funny.

He is often referred to as an "expert" when he says something positive about Scottish Independence and negative about the UK Government. MMT is also advocated by many in the SNP (not the leadership) and the Greens embrace it as well.

Lorna Slater:

"Slater says continuing to use the British pound in an independent Scotland, once the policy of the SNP, would be a “terrible idea”.

“Modern monetary theory tells us that the UK Government, because they are a currency creator, can create as much money as they want through quantitative easing, we’ve seen that through the furlough scheme. They can literally print as much as they want. In Scotland, we can’t create pounds – we don’t have the ability to do that. We are then in the position of being like a child getting an allowance from its parents. So we need to be able to control our currency.”

[Keith_M]

My preference would have been to, eventually, adopt the Euro but it's not a deal breaker for me, as a number of similarly sized countries have their own currency and seem to manage OK.

[Jack]

He has laid that out in detail, he believes it's a brand new currency on day 1. That also comes with massive risks to pensions, savings and mortgages and that's according to the SNP, not me.

The Brexiteer argument was similar, let the people of the UK who live here make the decisions about the UK as they are best placed.

Staying in the union comes with massive risks.

For example a pension pot worth £1,000,000 before the mini budget was only worth £600,000 afterwards.

Your strong and stable was wrong when it was first said. It's a bad joke now.

[James310]

Staying in the union comes with massive risks.

For example a pension pot worth £1,000,000 before the mini budget was only worth £600,000 afterwards.

Your strong and stable was wrong when it was first said. It's a bad joke now.

What was the £1M invested in? To check the accuracy of this statement.

[Stonewall]

Gives an indication that the transition period before moving to Scottish pound will be reasonably short due to the desire to join EU asap.


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If we get back into the EU there'll be two transitions then, assuming we fulfil the criteria for the Euro at some point. Or are you suggesting we just do a Poland and continually put off joining as they know it's a complete ****show.

Anyway I think if it ever comes to pass anyone with assets that doesn't have rocks in their head is going to make sure their assets are held south of the border as there will be an inevitable devaluation.

[Keith_M]

If we get back into the EU there'll be two transitions then, assuming we fulfil the criteria for the Euro at some point. Or are you suggesting we just do a Poland and continually put off joining as they know it's a complete ****show.

Anyway I think if it ever comes to pass anyone with assets that doesn't have rocks in their head is going to make sure their assets are held south of the border as there will be an inevitable devaluation.


Are you saying the Euro is a ****show?


:dunno:

[James310]

If we get back into the EU there'll be two transitions then, assuming we fulfil the criteria for the Euro at some point. Or are you suggesting we just do a Poland and continually put off joining as they know it's a complete ****show.

Anyway I think if it ever comes to pass anyone with assets that doesn't have rocks in their head is going to make sure their assets are held south of the border as there will be an inevitable devaluation.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17613671.snp-economic-guru-says-short-term-switch-new-currency-cause-chaos/


Yes, maybe not as short term as some are suggesting.

[Ozyhibby]

If we get back into the EU there'll be two transitions then, assuming we fulfil the criteria for the Euro at some point. Or are you suggesting we just do a Poland and continually put off joining as they know it's a complete ****show.

Anyway I think if it ever comes to pass anyone with assets that doesn't have rocks in their head is going to make sure their assets are held south of the border as there will be an inevitable devaluation.

Inevitable devaluation? Please explain?


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[Stonewall]

Are you saying the Euro is a ****show?


:dunno:

Yes. Sorry for not being clear.

[Stairway 2 7]

Inevitable devaluation? Please explain?


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Be a devaluation south of the border too, pound will plummet post independence

[Stairway 2 7]

Staying in the union comes with massive risks.

For example a pension pot worth £1,000,000 before the mini budget was only worth £600,000 afterwards.

Your strong and stable was wrong when it was first said. It's a bad joke now.

This isn’t true, it could worry people reading it.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1581993208656977920?t=0GmmRNMuilJd2pPp_r4W4g&s=19

Richard Murphy, an "expert" speaks.

"In three simple paras the SNP shreds its economic credibility in a way only Truss and Kwarteng have done before, because quite literally no country can do what this plan published by Sturgeon this morning suggests. Using sterling would economically ruin an independent Scotland"

But no, using sterling isn't sterlingisation according to some.

We're already Sterlingised, Sterlingisation would surely mean the move from another currency to Sterling? Today's announcement was about moving away from Sterling making the plan one of De-sterlingisation rather than one of Sterlingisation.

[Stairway 2 7]

We're already Sterlingised, Sterlingisation would surely mean the move from another currency to Sterling? Today's announcement was about moving away from Sterling making the plan one of De-sterlingisation rather than one of Sterlingisation.

But it said the new pound may or may not stay linked to the pound, which would be sterlingised. Basically we'll decide after independence

[James310]

We're already Sterlingised, Sterlingisation would surely mean the move from another currency to Sterling? Today's announcement was about moving away from Sterling making the plan one of De-sterlingisation rather than one of Sterlingisation.

Of course we use Sterling, we are part of the UK. Sterlingisation is using sterling while not having the powers normally associated with having your own currency and Central Bank. We would be using a foreign countries currency and the Bank of England would be setting monetary policy and interest rates in Scotland. You know all the "levers" the SNP keep saying they want, well you don't have them for every second you keep using sterling. That's why today Nicola Sturgeon was pressed on how long sterling would be used for, she never said.

https://www.insider.co.uk/news/economists-warn-dangers-scotland-sterlingisation-23462629

[Hibrandenburg]

But it said the new pound may or may not stay linked to the pound, which would be sterlingised. Basically we'll decide after independence

So the aim is de-sterlingisation.

[Stairway 2 7]

So the aim is de-sterlingisation.

No if it's linked to the pound, you're still at the mercy of the pound. I'd prefer to join euro but they don't seem keen and I think voters would be the same

[Ozyhibby]

Be a devaluation south of the border too, pound will plummet post independence

Scotland is a net exporter which normally results in a a currency strengthening. The rest of the UK are net importers which usually results in a currency weakening.
While we have Oil to sell, there will be demand for the Scottish currency. Biggest problem might be it being too strong.


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[Hibrandenburg]

No if it's linked to the pound, you're still at the mercy of the pound. I'd prefer to join euro but they don't seem keen and I think voters would be the same

The plan announced today was to leave Sterling at some point, so the headline should read De-sterlingisation.

[James310]

So the aim is de-sterlingisation.

Yes, after X period of using sterling. But using sterling for X period is called sterlingisation.

Assuming not pegged to pound, who knows.

[Stairway 2 7]

Scotland is a net exporter which normally results in a a currency strengthening. The rest of the UK are net importers which usually results in a currency weakening.
While we have Oil to sell, there will be demand for the Scottish currency. Biggest problem might be it being too strong.


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I meant in the say 10 years post independence when we are usingpound, the pound will definitely fall. Markets don't like uncertainty.

[Stairway 2 7]

The plan announced today was to leave Sterling at some point, so the headline should read De-sterlingisation.

But they refused to answer if Scottish pound will be linked when we do. If it is then its England that's in control of our rate

[Just Alf]

Yes, after X period of using sterling. But using sterling for X period is called sterlingisation.

Assuming not pegged to pound, who knows.So, if we were independent when would you want to move currency?

Surely doing it at a time when it's safe to do so with minimum impact on the market is the preferred option?

[James310]

So, if we were independent when would you want to move currency?

Surely doing it at a time when it's safe to do so with minimum impact on the market is the preferred option?

Who defines what is safe and says it will have minimum impact? Was that defined today? The markets as we have seen take no prisoners.

The best option is the one we have now.

[Ozyhibby]

Who defines what is safe and says it will have minimum impact? Was that defined today? The markets as we have seen take no prisoners.

The best option is the one we have now.

Yip, it’s all going great.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/QMHoU66sBXqqLqYvGO/giphy.gif
https://media2.giphy.com/media/QMHoU66sBXqqLqYvGO/giphy.gif


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[James310]

Yip, it’s all going great.
https://media2.giphy.com/media/QMHoU66sBXqqLqYvGO/giphy.gif
https://media2.giphy.com/media/QMHoU66sBXqqLqYvGO/giphy.gif


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I never said it was, but I don't see a credible plan to make it better based on today. If you and the SNP supporters are happy then I guess that's all that matters.

[ronaldo7]

You seem to think moving to a new Scottish currency is a new thing?

The Sustainable Growth Commission report was the currency policy of the SNP and has been for some time now, it was always advocating keeping the pound for X number of years before moving to a new Scottish currency. Today's announcement is absolutely nothing new, it was always that.

Here is a SNP announcement from 2018 that confirms that incase you were in any doubt.

https://www.snp.org/snp-growth-commission/


"The Growth Commission has also set out a road map to an independent currency, using the pound for a transitional period, with a series of tests for future currency decisions."

Here is the report from the BBC in 2019 confirming this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48069470.amp

The headline is the big giveaway.

"SNP members change leadership's currency plan"

Once again, you allude to know what I'm thinking or even saying. You really need to stop doing this.

I've given you the position that the first Minister reported today. We're moving to a Scottish currency. At no time did I ever say I thought this was "new". You did.

I understand you're trying to fend off many discussions on the same subject, and losing the fight, but please stop putting words into my mouth.

[Andy Bee]

I'd like to see him advise on what would work?

Or is he saying Scotland being independant is simply not possible

I simply don't believe that Scotland wouldn't be anything other than successful as an independant country - ofcourse with bumps and decisions to be made along the way

I'd rather the decisions were fully in the hands of the 5 million folk who live here and want there wishes fulfilled or compromises made the way they want than being driven by the absolute **** show we are currently chained to

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExVN0PxmQxo

Live at 8pm

[greenlex]

Who defines what is safe and says it will have minimum impact? Was that defined today? The markets as we have seen take no prisoners.

The best option is the one we have now.
Who defines our current situation is the best one? If it is then God help us.

[ronaldo7]

Who defines what is safe and says it will have minimum impact? Was that defined today? The markets as we have seen take no prisoners.

The best option is the one we have now.

If only you'd listened today. The FM outlined who'd be taking those decisions today.

You could always read the paper. 📄

[ronaldo7]

The Scottish Government has published the third policy paper in its “Building A New Scotland” series, setting out the economic case for an independent Scotland.

It’s a plan for a brighter future amid the constant crisis at Westminster and a Tory cost-of-living crisis that’s inflicting misery on so many people.

Securing full democratic power for Scotland
✅ Rejoining the European Union
✅ Greater workers’ rights and improved wages
✅ Ending age discrimination for those on the minimum wage
✅ A migration policy tailored to Scotland’s unique needs
✅ £20bn investment through the Building a New Scotland Fund

Lower energy prices and more energy security, by increasing our electricity generating capacity and making better use of Scotland’s vast renewable resources.

👉 A fairer working life, with improved access to flexible working, stronger workers’ rights and the end to age-based wage discrimination.

👉 Regaining our European citizenship and the right to study, work and live across the European Union


👉 Retaining free movement across the UK and Ireland, as well as across the EU.

👉 More investment in key infrastructure, like energy-efficient homes, greener transport, better connectivity and more affordable housing – through the £20bn Building A New Scotland Fund.

👉 Being more involved in owning and shaping the economy, with more support for workers’ co-operatives, community ownership of energy, and more control of local assets by local people

Love it. 💘

[Keith_M]

If only you'd listened today. The FM outlined who'd be taking those decisions today.

You could always read the paper. 📄


Will it be in the Daily Mail?

[allmodcons]

So is the policy not to use sterling for an as yet undefined period of time and then introduce a new currency at some point that nobody knows?

Which bit have I got wrong?

Using sterling after Independence is Sterlingisation!

If it had been new currency on day 1 that's a game changer, it's not. It's use sterling!

Nobody in their right mind would think it possible to move to a new currency on day one. If you think that's a game changer then you are one of a kind.

There has to be a transitional period whether that's 2 years or 10 years doesn't matter. This is a decision we are taking for future generations.

For me, it's important where we will be when my kids are my age (i.e. - free from Governments we rarely elect).

You really haven't grasped the concept of Independence being transitional.

No doubt sterlingisation has it's limitations but it's the common sense way to go before we transition to a Scottish currency.

[Jones28]

Yasss, smakaroonis for all.

[ronaldo7]

Will it be in the Daily Mail?

Im sure it will. Blackley was there today. He'll give it a fair hearing according to his line of questioning...oh wait.

[marinello59]

You wouldn’t expect Mcalpine to be impressed so read with care.

https://commonweal.scot/this-paper-answers-nothing-this-government-has-no-answers/

[Moulin Yarns]

https://cms-law.webpkgcache.com/doc/-/s/cms.law/en/media/local/cms-cmno/files/publications/publications/rebound-remodel-scottish-independence-an-independent-scottish-currency?v=1



A good explanation on sterlingisation.

Having a currency linked to the pound.

So using the pound for a period after independence is not sterlingisation, it's just keeping using the pound.

If a new currency is adopted and pegged to the pound then that's sterlingisation. But in the current climate, why would you?

[James310]

You wouldn’t expect Mcalpine to be impressed so read with care.

https://commonweal.scot/this-paper-answers-nothing-this-government-has-no-answers/

Yikes. Brutal austerity no matter what way you look at it. It seems though as long as it's our austerity some people don't care.

Alex Massive similarly unimpressed.

https://archive.ph/2022.10.17-161438/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-independence-strategy-itll-be-all-right-on-the-night-mmfd23g62


"If I supported Scottish independence I think I'd be wondering why, after eight years as first minister, Nicola Sturgeon still can't produce a detailed - let alone a convincing - economic prospectus for it."

"An honest answer to almost every question about currency & the border and monetary policy and fiscal realities would have two parts. The first is simple: “I don’t know” and the second is simply: “I don’t care”

"This was not a serious analysis of Scotland’s future policy choices and the awkward reality within which those decisions would have to be made. It was, in fact, a joke."

[Smartie]

Yikes. Brutal austerity no matter what way you look at it. It seems though as long as it's our austerity some people don't care.

Alex Massive similarly unimpressed.

https://archive.ph/2022.10.17-161438/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-independence-strategy-itll-be-all-right-on-the-night-mmfd23g62


"If I supported Scottish independence I think I'd be wondering why, after eight years as first minister, Nicola Sturgeon still can't produce a detailed - let alone a convincing - economic prospectus for it."

"An honest answer to almost every question about currency & the border and monetary policy and fiscal realities would have two parts. The first is simple: “I don’t know” and the second is simply: “I don’t care”

"This was not a serious analysis of Scotland’s future policy choices and the awkward reality within which those decisions would have to be made. It was, in fact, a joke."

If only we had an alternative that was remaining in an anti-austerity, strong and stable fiscal Union that had Scotland’s best interests at heart.

I don’t think anyone can admit with a hand on heart that there is a risk free no brainer currency option for an independent Scotland and the likes of yourself have every right to be as cynical as you are. The debate is better for it.

However I just don’t fancy the “mystery box” that is whatever the next few decades bring as part of the UK.

[heretoday]

SNP talk glibly of rejoining the EU. There's countries been waiting years.

[Skol]

If only we had an alternative that was remaining in an anti-austerity, strong and stable fiscal Union that had Scotland’s best interests at heart.

I don’t think anyone can admit with a hand on heart that there is a risk free no brainer currency option for an independent Scotland and the likes of yourself have every right to be as cynical as you are. The debate is better for it.

However I just don’t fancy the “mystery box” that is whatever the next few decades bring as part of the UK.

The problem is that half of us don’t fancy the mystery box of the U.K. and half don’t fancy the mystery box of independence. If only one or other could reduce the level of uncertainty. Neither seem willing to though.

I struggle to understand why the snp don’t exploit that as they would get independence quite quickly if they did.

[OldEast]

The problem is that half of us don’t fancy the mystery box of the U.K. and half don’t fancy the mystery box of independence. If only one or other could reduce the level of uncertainty. Neither seem willing to though.

I struggle to understand why the snp don’t exploit that as they would get independence quite quickly if they did.

Perhaps there is some truth in the ever increasing belief that they are too comfortable in government.

[Ozyhibby]

SNP talk glibly of rejoining the EU. There's countries been waiting years.

Scotland will be joining the EU after Indy. The countries who have been waiting years are doing so because it’s taking them a long time to fulfil the criteria. It won’t take us long at all to comply with EU law.


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[Ozyhibby]

Yikes. Brutal austerity no matter what way you look at it. It seems though as long as it's our austerity some people don't care.

Alex Massive similarly unimpressed.

https://archive.ph/2022.10.17-161438/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snps-independence-strategy-itll-be-all-right-on-the-night-mmfd23g62


"If I supported Scottish independence I think I'd be wondering why, after eight years as first minister, Nicola Sturgeon still can't produce a detailed - let alone a convincing - economic prospectus for it."

"An honest answer to almost every question about currency & the border and monetary policy and fiscal realities would have two parts. The first is simple: “I don’t know” and the second is simply: “I don’t care”

"This was not a serious analysis of Scotland’s future policy choices and the awkward reality within which those decisions would have to be made. It was, in fact, a joke."

Massie.[emoji849]


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[James310]

Massie.[emoji849]


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A very predictable response. Attack the journalist rather than the points he makes.

Maybe an article from The National is more your thing, full of praise and zero criticism.

[Ozyhibby]

A very predictable response. Attack the journalist rather than the points he makes.

Maybe an article from The National is more your thing, full of praise and zero criticism.

Is Massie a journalist?


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[James310]

Is Massie a journalist?


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Massie is Scotland editor of The Spectator, a columnist for the Scottish edition of The Times, and a regular contributor to Border Television as well as BBC Television and Radio. Prior to this, he edited a political blog, The Debatable Land.[3]

He was previously Washington correspondent for The Scotsman and assistant editor of Scotland on Sunday. He has also written for The Washington Post, Politico, The Daily Telegraph, The New Republic, Foreign Policy, The Sunday Times, The Daily Beast,[4] the Los Angeles Times, the Scottish Daily Mail, National Review Online, The Sunday Telegraph, The New York Times,[5] The American Conservative, Time, Bloomberg Businessweek, The Observer, the New Statesman, The Big Issue, Slate, CapX, the Irish Independent, Newsweek and The Sunday Business Post. Since January 2009[6] he has written a blog[7] that is published by The Spectator.[8] In 2012 he was short-listed in the blog section for the Orwell Prize for political writing.[9]

[HibbyDave]

I quite like the idea of independence.
I am a bit concerned about commentary saying we will continue to use Sterling until we develop a Scottish Pound and a Central Bank. We also plan to join the EU. Pre-requisite of joining EU is to adopt the Euro as currency.

Which is it, Sterling, Scottish pound or Euro?
Fairly important question that remains unanswered.

[Callum_62]

I quite like the idea of independence.
I am a bit concerned about commentary saying we will continue to use Sterling until we develop a Scottish Pound and a Central Bank. We also plan to join the EU. Pre-requisite of joining EU is to adopt the Euro as currency.

Which is it, Sterling, Scottish pound or Euro?
Fairly important question that remains unanswered.

I've been to Croatia 3 times since 2016

Each time we paid for things in Croatian Kuna

Croatia joined the EU in 2013

They are only now moving towards adopting the euro but it didn't stop then being members

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[degenerated]

I quite like the idea of independence.
I am a bit concerned about commentary saying we will continue to use Sterling until we develop a Scottish Pound and a Central Bank. We also plan to join the EU. Pre-requisite of joining EU is to adopt the Euro as currency.

Which is it, Sterling, Scottish pound or Euro?
Fairly important question that remains unanswered.You appear to have answered your own question before you asked it.

There are currently 7 countries in the EU that use their own currency, if I remember correctly.

[HibbyDave]

Excellent! I’m in then😀

[Ozyhibby]

Massie is Scotland editor of The Spectator, a columnist for the Scottish edition of The Times, and a regular contributor to Border Television as well as BBC Television and Radio. Prior to this, he edited a political blog, The Debatable Land.[3]

He was previously Washington correspondent for The Scotsman and assistant editor of Scotland on Sunday. He has also written for The Washington Post, Politico, The Daily Telegraph, The New Republic, Foreign Policy, The Sunday Times, The Daily Beast,[4] the Los Angeles Times, the Scottish Daily Mail, National Review Online, The Sunday Telegraph, The New York Times,[5] The American Conservative, Time, Bloomberg Businessweek, The Observer, the New Statesman, The Big Issue, Slate, CapX, the Irish Independent, Newsweek and The Sunday Business Post. Since January 2009[6] he has written a blog[7] that is published by The Spectator.[8] In 2012 he was short-listed in the blog section for the Orwell Prize for political writing.[9]

For the last ten years, Massie has made his living from writing anti-SNP, anti-NS and anti-Indy articles. That’s fine, he’s entitled to his opinion and to promote it.
His assessment of whatever NS said yesterday carries about as much weight as if you had posted that Douglas Ross wasn’t keen either. Massie is a political operator. He’s a pro union campaigner just as much as Ross, Sarwar, Davidson, Brown etc.
Also, I couldn’t guarantee it, but I doubt I have ever posted a link from the National.


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[JeMeSouviens]

For the last ten years, Massie has made his living from writing anti-SNP, anti-NS and anti-Indy articles. That’s fine, he’s entitled to his opinion and to promote it.
His assessment of whatever NS said yesterday carries about as much weight as if you had posted that Douglas Ross wasn’t keen either. Massie is a political operator. He’s a pro union campaigner just as much as Ross, Sarwar, Davidson, Brown etc.
Also, I couldn’t guarantee it, but I doubt I have ever posted a link from the National.


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Massie and his ilk are not interested in "debate" or what's best for Scotland. He's interested only in the survival of his country, the UK.

[JeMeSouviens]

I quite like the idea of independence.
I am a bit concerned about commentary saying we will continue to use Sterling until we develop a Scottish Pound and a Central Bank. We also plan to join the EU. Pre-requisite of joining EU is to adopt the Euro as currency.

Which is it, Sterling, Scottish pound or Euro?
Fairly important question that remains unanswered.

A pre-requisite of joining the EU is to commit in principle to joining the Euro. Sweden made that commitment in 1995 but has never joined. Several of the countries from the eastward expansion of the 90s/00s have done likewise including Croatia as highlighted above.

So the answer is Sterling until it is judged that iScotland can successfully float its own currency.

[JeMeSouviens]

For the last ten years, Massie has made his living from writing anti-SNP, anti-NS and anti-Indy articles. That’s fine, he’s entitled to his opinion and to promote it.
His assessment of whatever NS said yesterday carries about as much weight as if you had posted that Douglas Ross wasn’t keen either. Massie is a political operator. He’s a pro union campaigner just as much as Ross, Sarwar, Davidson, Brown etc.
Also, I couldn’t guarantee it, but I doubt I have ever posted a link from the National.


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You can see the personal toll that continually churning out that article by comparing his fresh-faced Times mugshot to his current twitter profile :greengrin

https://i.ibb.co/kqzsN3x/Screenshot-2022-10-18-at-10-47-09.png

[Since90+2]

You appear to have answered your own question before you asked it.

There are currently 7 countries in the EU that use their own currency, if I remember correctly.

I suppose the caveat with that would be we'd be using someone else's currency (probably for about a decade) rather than our own.

[Ozyhibby]

I suppose the caveat with that would be we'd be using someone else's currency (probably for about a decade) rather than our own.

I’d say less than 5 years.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I’d say less than 5 years.


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I'd read previously NS said 10. No way we'd raise the money and set up a central bank in less than 5 years. Add in all the other changes that are going on at the same time, from mortgages wages, pensions, tax and benefits.

[Since90+2]

I’d say less than 5 years.


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Not a chance.

[Ozyhibby]

I'd read previously NS said 10. No way we'd raise the money and set up a central bank in less than 5 years. Add in all the other changes that are going on at the same time, from mortgages wages, pensions, tax and benefits.

What money would need to be raised? I can’t remember seeing NS ever give a timescale?


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[Ozyhibby]

Not a chance.

I think there will significant incentive for the SG to get this done fairly quickly in order to speed up EU membership.
I think the Czechs got their new currency up and running in about a month or so?


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[Stairway 2 7]

What money would need to be raised? I can’t remember seeing NS ever give a timescale?


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I could be wrong but I thought she said, she would take profits from north sea oil for a some years to raise the 20 billion needed for a central bank

[Ozyhibby]

I could be wrong but I thought she said, she would take profits from north sea oil for a some years to raise the 20 billion needed for a central bank

Pretty sure that was for investment in infrastructure?


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[Ozyhibby]

Pensions triple lock is being scrapped. SNP should highlight how it will be kept post Indy and commit to raising pensions in Scotland to the EU average.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Growth commission said 10 years back in 2018. Lots of points the commission gave are really good. We need massively increased immigration. Opposition parties comments look daft in hindsight seeing the mayhem were living in

https://archive.ph/wgcQW

SCOTLAND would keep the pound for at least 10 years after independence under plans set out today by the SNP’s Growth Commission

[Jack]

Pensions triple lock is being scrapped. SNP should highlight how it will be kept post Indy and commit to raising pensions in Scotland to the EU average.


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Did the SNP conference not say something along these lines a few years ago?

[Stairway 2 7]

Pretty sure that was for investment in infrastructure?


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Could be right. To be honest I've not paid too much attention to yesterday's details, as I don't believe it's the big deal some people are making out

We can always peg to the pound if we decide to, the world isn't going to fall apart like they would love you to believe. It will be difficult at first even financially so. But the upsides or so clear and obvious comparing to being stuck with Westminster

[marinello59]

I could be wrong but I thought she said, she would take profits from north sea oil for a some years to raise the 20 billion needed for a central bank

That’s for infrastructure and it won’t just come from oil revenues,they won’t cover it. Borrowing will be required as well.

[stantonhibby]

Is Massie a journalist?


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You've linked to an article by him before. Guess because it was more favourable towards indy that's ok though.

[Ozyhibby]

That’s for infrastructure and it won’t just come from oil revenues,they won’t cover it. Borrowing will be required as well.

Agree, the level of infrastructure spending we will need will be massive. It’s been neglected for a long time.


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[Ozyhibby]

You've linked to an article by him before. Guess because it was more favourable towards indy that's ok though.

I doubt it, he has never wrote an article favourable to Indy. I’ve linked to him loads though, yes.


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[archie]

I think people are looking at this paper in the wrong way. It's not an economic prospectus. It's a political statement. It allows an answer of sort to the currency question and has a fair amount of aspirational stuff that's frankly irrelevant. The fact it has been savaged by nationalist commentators is neither here nor there. Its purpose is to kick serious discussion of the issues into the long grass and to give lines of reassurance, rather than an in-depth risk and reward analysis. So maybe it has done its job?

[Just Alf]

I think people are looking at this paper in the wrong way. It's not an economic prospectus. It's a political statement. It allows an answer of sort to the currency question and has a fair amount of aspirational stuff that's frankly irrelevant. The fact it has been savaged by nationalist commentators is neither here nor there. Its purpose is to kick serious discussion of the issues into the long grass and to give lines of reassurance, rather than an in-depth risk and reward analysis. So maybe it has done its job?It's a good point...


I was getting a bit irate earlier listening to the news on the radio when on one hand the SNP paper was getting a hard time for not setting out specific timescales etc while on the other hand Westminster couldn't do the same on the current economy saying they'll need to wait until nearer their next budget in a few weeks time as it was a moving picture.

[James310]

It's a good point...


I was getting a bit irate earlier listening to the news on the radio when on one hand the SNP paper was getting a hard time for not setting out specific timescales etc while on the other hand Westminster couldn't do the same on the current economy saying they'll need to wait until nearer their next budget in a few weeks time as it was a moving picture.

I think many are rightly or wrongly comparing this to the White Paper that was crammed with numbers and dates. Maybe the lessons of Brexit have been learned and a lack of any real details is on purpose. But as we saw from the universal negative reaction it's just leading to more questions and in some cases ridicule of the SNPs case.

Has there been any positive coverage at all?

[archie]

I think many are rightly or wrongly comparing this to the White Paper that was crammed with numbers and dates. Maybe the lessons of Brexit have been learned and a lack of any real details is on purpose. But as we saw from the universal negative reaction it's just leading to more questions and in some cases ridicule of the SNPs case.

Has there been any positive coverage at all?

I genuinely don't think the coverage matters. In fact being on the same day a screeching u turns at Westminster probably means less scrutiny. There is now a plan. It's as thin as rice paper, but it is a plan. More detail gives more to attack. The fact that Jonathan Shafti and Robin Macalpine attack it is probably a bonus.

[Ozyhibby]

I think many are rightly or wrongly comparing this to the White Paper that was crammed with numbers and dates. Maybe the lessons of Brexit have been learned and a lack of any real details is on purpose. But as we saw from the universal negative reaction it's just leading to more questions and in some cases ridicule of the SNPs case.

Has there been any positive coverage at all?

Would you say that the SNP plan for the Scottish economy is more fleshed out than the Tory plan for the Scottish economy?


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[archie]

Would you say that the SNP plan for the Scottish economy is more fleshed out than the Tory plan for the Scottish economy?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNo.

[Ozyhibby]

No.

Fair enough. If Truss is your thing then nothing is going to persuade you.


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[James310]

Would you say that the SNP plan for the Scottish economy is more fleshed out than the Tory plan for the Scottish economy?


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Absolutely not based on a document that had about 3 pages devoted to borders and trade.

I am sure the machinery of UK Government has considerably more than 3 pages.

[Ozyhibby]

Absolutely not based on a document that had about 3 pages devoted to borders and trade.

I am sure the machinery of UK Government has considerably more than 3 pages.

What is it about borders and trade you are not sure about? We’ll be in the EU so it’s not like most of our trading agreements aren’t out there?


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[James310]

What is it about borders and trade you are not sure about? We’ll be in the EU so it’s not like most of our trading agreements aren’t out there?


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Simple then, as easy as that.

[grunt]

Would you say that the SNP plan for the Scottish economy is more fleshed out than the Tory plan for the Scottish economy?
The Tory plan for Scotland can be easily summarised: plunder. They want Scotland for our natural resources, that's all.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Mmmm one border or 27, it's such a toughie to decide

[Ozyhibby]

Simple then, as easy as that.

Seriously, what is it that your not sure about?


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[archie]

Fair enough. If Truss is your thing then nothing is going to persuade you.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHow do you take 'Truss is my thing' from my answer? As it happens I think the screeching u turns yesterday reflected the catastrophic measures they put in place. All of the measures announced yesterday will be subject to detailed scrutiny and analysis. I may not like the proposals, but they are clear and testable. One thing that Truss has proven is that magical thinking by politicians rarely works

[Kato]

All of the measures announced yesterday will be subject to detailed scrutiny and analysis.

They should be scrutinised by themselves before they are announced.

Chances are they will be abandoned before the chance of any scrutiny the way they are operating.

The Tories have plenty plans for the economy. There seems to be a new one every week.



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[archie]

What is it about borders and trade you are not sure about? We’ll be in the EU so it’s not like most of our trading agreements aren’t out there?


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But that's the thing Ozyhibby, will we be in the EU? How will we meet the accession criteria, what will the terms of membership be, will we be a net contributer, what will that do to financial services based on Scotland etc. Etc. To be fair to you it's not possible to answer that. But it can't be said with any certainty that it would happen. And surely any plan would at least touch on these issues? That's why I don't think its an economic prospectus but rather a political statement.

[archie]

They should be scrutinised by themselves before they are announced.

Chances are they will be abandoned before the chance of any scrutiny the way they are operating.

The Tories have plenty plans for the economy. There seems to be a new one every week.



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As it happens I agree. Truss's government is a shambles and a model of how not to do things. But there will be scrutiny.

[James310]

Seriously, what is it that your not sure about?


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The "technology" that is to be used? What is it, how will it work? Isn't that what the Brexiteers promised.

How will business be helped with the significant transaction costs they will face, what measures will be put in place to stop massive queues like what we saw at Dover?

How will the hundred plus mile border that won't have checks be policed?

Will joining the EU mean like Croatia we face being put in excessive deficit policy meaning massive austerity?

Why is a hard border a good thing?

That's just a handful.

[James310]

Things are bad if Richard Murphy is saying he would now vote No based on the paper yesterday. (Would he get a vote?)

Described in The National as a top pro Independence economist.

[Keith_M]

Things are bad if Richard Murphy is saying he would now vote No based on the paper yesterday. (Would he get a vote?)

Described in The National as a top pro Independence economist.



That depends, is Downham Market a Scottish enclave?

[archie]

Things are bad if Richard Murphy is saying he would now vote No based on the paper yesterday. (Would he get a vote?)

Described in The National as a top pro Independence economist.Again, I don't think this matters. It gives activists a line to use and puts some space between the SNP and more radical independence activists.

[Bristolhibby]

The "technology" that is to be used? What is it, how will it work? Isn't that what the Brexiteers promised.

How will business be helped with the significant transaction costs they will face, what measures will be put in place to stop massive queues like what we saw at Dover?

How will the hundred plus mile border that won't have checks be policed?

Will joining the EU mean like Croatia we face being put in excessive deficit policy meaning massive austerity?

Why is a hard border a good thing?

That's just a handful.

Just not bother them as it’s all too difficult.

More of the **** show from Westminster as there’s nothing we can do about what England and her voters decide.

J

[J-C]

I have said from day one, if Scotland is such a burden to the UK and England, why the hell are they so desperate to keep us in the Union.

[Ozyhibby]

The "technology" that is to be used? What is it, how will it work? Isn't that what the Brexiteers promised.

How will business be helped with the significant transaction costs they will face, what measures will be put in place to stop massive queues like what we saw at Dover?

How will the hundred plus mile border that won't have checks be policed?

Will joining the EU mean like Croatia we face being put in excessive deficit policy meaning massive austerity?

Why is a hard border a good thing?

That's just a handful.

Of the top of my head, without being an expert (outside my own head[emoji6]) I would say a lot of those questions have been answered.
It’s a hundred mile border with only two main roads across it. Put in the right infrastructure and problems and queues can be minimised. Dover is a sea border with a natural bottle neck.
A hard border is not a good thing but we are get rid of a hard border with 27 and creating a new one with 1.


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[Ozyhibby]

Things are bad if Richard Murphy is saying he would now vote No based on the paper yesterday. (Would he get a vote?)

Described in The National as a top pro Independence economist.

Is Richard Murphy taken seriously? MMT sounds good but is there a working example of it? It’s a bit like communism. Great in theory but working examples are hard to come by.


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[James310]

Of the top of my head, without being an expert (outside my own head[emoji6]) I would say a lot of those questions have been answered.
It’s a hundred mile border with only two main roads across it. Put in the right infrastructure and problems and queues can be minimised. Dover is a sea border with a natural bottle neck.
A hard border is not a good thing but we are get rid of a hard border with 27 and creating a new one with 1.


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The first one hasn't be answered at all, it was a question asked yesterday. The answer was waffle waffle I will tell you later.

Put in the right infrastructure and the queues will be minimised? That's stolen from the Brexiteers isn't it?

I see no answer about the increased transaction costs businesses will now face, it was half a billion in 2014 according to Nicola Sturgeon so where was that answered?

There are 2 main roads but another 20 plus crossing points, what will be in place in all these other crossing points?

No answers on the EU and what that actually means, would it mean austerity like Croatia?

Don't bother answering, the point being is there are still lots of outstanding questions but we were told yesterday would be some kind of blueprint. Nicola Sturgeon has been asked these questions for years now, all the time her answer was wait and see and those answers will be clear in our economic plan, well that was published yesterday and we are still no clearer. We got 10 whole pages on how Scotland would operate without our own currency, how it would set up a Central Bank and how we would then establish our own currency. And a whole 3 pages on how the border and trade would operate.

If this is the work of the best and brightest the SNP has to offer then I am even more certain than I was before we won't be seeing a referendum or Independence any time soon.

Your best bet is demographics as you have said, it might be another 20 or 30 years away but it's certainly not happening under this current version of the SNP.

[James310]

Is Richard Murphy taken seriously? MMT sounds good but is there a working example of it? It’s a bit like communism. Great in theory but working examples are hard to come by.


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He is by some, he said he was contacted by a number of SNP politicians after yesterday asking him to go easy. They share his stuff on Twitter, he has been referenced on here many times, normally around GERs time.

[Ozyhibby]

He is by some, he said he was contacted by a number of SNP politicians after yesterday asking him to go easy. They share his stuff on Twitter, he has been referenced on here many times, normally around GERs time.

I’ve read a bit about it but just can’t see how it works? I’ve read article by Stephanie Skelton etc but it never fully convinces? Does it for you?
It’s the same with UBI? Show me a working example and I’m all for it.


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[James310]

I’ve read a bit about it but just can’t see how it works? I’ve read article by Stephanie Skelton etc but it never fully convinces? Does it for you?
It’s the same with UBI? Show me a working example and I’m all for it.


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You seem to be confusing me with someone that supports MMT?

[Jones28]

The border question is one that is the only answer I really care about as my parents are less than a mile from the border in Berwickshire and Berwick is their biggest local town, so it could have an impact on their lives - not that it bothers them, they’d vote independence tomorrow.

Unlike the sceptics though I do have faith the questions will be answered and, in all honesty, I’m willing to see almost anything that will unshackle us from the disaster that is the UK and Brexit.

The EU is a different proposition now as we’d be going in as a much smaller country, but definitely would rather be in than not.

[Ozyhibby]

The border question is one that is the only answer I really care about as my parents are less than a mile from the border in Berwickshire and Berwick is their biggest local town, so it could have an impact on their lives - not that it bothers them, they’d vote independence tomorrow.

Unlike the sceptics though I do have faith the questions will be answered and, in all honesty, I’m willing to see almost anything that will unshackle us from the disaster that is the UK and Brexit.

The EU is a different proposition now as we’d be going in as a much smaller country, but definitely would rather be in than not.

Unless they are driving semi trailers over the border regularly then nothing will change for them.


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[Ozyhibby]

You seem to be confusing me with someone that supports MMT?

I wasn’t, I was just surprised you used his opposition as a bad point for the SG?


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[James310]

I wasn’t, I was just surprised you used his opposition as a bad point for the SG?


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For someone who has been such a big supporter of Scottish Independence such as him to turn around and say he would now vote No seems fairly newsworthy, it even made the National which was a surprise. Must be the first semi negative story they have published about the SNP ever.

But yes let's dismiss it as nothing at all.

[Ozyhibby]

For someone who has been such a big supporter of Scottish Independence such as him to turn around and say he would now vote No seems fairly newsworthy, it even made the National which was a surprise. Must be the first semi negative story they have published about the SNP ever.

But yes let's dismiss it as nothing at all.

Sounds like he has projected his fantasy policy onto independence and is now disappointed to find out that if he wants it, he will have to campaign and persuade people of its merits.


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[Skol]

I really struggle to understand how anyone who supports independence can look at yesterdays positioning and think yeah, all is a great. There is so much ambiguity and so many unanswered questions.

I appreciate though those same people cannot understand why I don’t want away from the union given how broken it clearly is right now.

I feel sturgeon is passing up a great opportunity right now to win over the waverers. I just don’t understand why. My position has moved from being a firm no to being more open to the proposal. I admit though that I do remain sceptical, but the uk is so broken right now all options need considered. If sturgeon could be a bit more transparent on the risks and how they would be mitigated I think she would be pleasantly surprised with the impact that has. The fact that she’s is not makes me question why.

[ronaldo7]

The border question is one that is the only answer I really care about as my parents are less than a mile from the border in Berwickshire and Berwick is their biggest local town, so it could have an impact on their lives - not that it bothers them, they’d vote independence tomorrow.

Unlike the sceptics though I do have faith the questions will be answered and, in all honesty, I’m willing to see almost anything that will unshackle us from the disaster that is the UK and Brexit.

The EU is a different proposition now as we’d be going in as a much smaller country, but definitely would rather be in than not.


I'm just back from Ireland, and as a regular visitor have no difficulty moving across their border with the UK. You don't even need a passport, but it is advisable to take it. The common travel area allows free movement of people across the UK and Ireland. The border between Scotland and England will be the same, as we too are part of the CTA, that's unless the new government of England and Wales don't want our business. Don't let the scaremongerers put you off.

And always do what you parents tell you. They're always right. 😂

More here.

The Common Travel Area (CTA) is a long-standing arrangement between the UK, the Crown Dependencies (Bailiwick of Jersey, Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Isle of Man) and Ireland that pre-dates both British and Irish membership of the EU and is not dependent on it.

Under the CTA, British and Irish citizens can move freely and reside in either jurisdiction and enjoy associated rights and privileges, including the right to work, study and vote in certain elections, as well as to access social welfare benefits and health services.

The UK and Irish governments signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) in May 2019 reaffirming our commitment to maintain the CTA, and the associated rights and privileges, in all circumstances. On signing the MoU, both governments released a Joint Statement.

[ronaldo7]

I really struggle to understand how anyone who supports independence can look at yesterdays positioning and think yeah, all is a great. There is so much ambiguity and so many unanswered questions.

I appreciate though those same people cannot understand why I don’t want away from the union given how broken it clearly is right now.

I feel sturgeon is passing up a great opportunity right now to win over the waverers. I just don’t understand why. My position has moved from being a firm no to being more open to the proposal. I admit though that I do remain sceptical, but the uk is so broken right now all options need considered. If sturgeon could be a bit more transparent on the risks and how they would be mitigated I think she would be pleasantly surprised with the impact that has. The fact that she’s is not makes me question why.

During her announcement of the third paper, she did say that areas of concern would be fleshed out. It's not the final offering, although you'd think it was given the response of the usual suspects.

Glad you're still open minded.

[JeMeSouviens]

I wasn’t, I was just surprised you used his opposition as a bad point for the SG?


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My enemy's enemy is my friend.

[JeMeSouviens]

The border question is one that is the only answer I really care about as my parents are less than a mile from the border in Berwickshire and Berwick is their biggest local town, so it could have an impact on their lives - not that it bothers them, they’d vote independence tomorrow.

Unlike the sceptics though I do have faith the questions will be answered and, in all honesty, I’m willing to see almost anything that will unshackle us from the disaster that is the UK and Brexit.

The EU is a different proposition now as we’d be going in as a much smaller country, but definitely would rather be in than not.

It's obviously dangerous to make any assumptions but it is not unicorn thinking to suggest that iScotland will be in the EEA and also that the current UK/Ireland/Channel Islands Common Travel Area could be extended (politically, not geographically) to include Scotland.

If this were the case then the border would be similar to the borders Switzerland has with its EU neighbours. As Switzerland is in Schengen it has free movement of people but as it's not in the EU customs union there is no free movement for goods. How this works in practice is that small road border crossings are unmanned while at larger road border crossings cars just drive through (apart from the odd check for the Swiss motorway toll sticker) but trucks park up and get the requisite checks done/signed off.

[Moulin Yarns]

A bit of context for the currency debate?


https://www.gov.im/categories/tax-vat-and-your-money/manx-currency-coins-and-notes/

https://www.expatarrivals.com/europe/channel-islands/banking-money-and-taxes-channel-islands#:~:text=The%20official%20currency%20throug hout%20the,their%20own%20notes%20and%20coins.

[The Tubs]

It's obviously dangerous to make any assumptions but it is not unicorn thinking to suggest that iScotland will be in the EEA and also that the current UK/Ireland/Channel Islands Common Travel Area could be extended (politically, not geographically) to include Scotland.

If this were the case then the border would be similar to the borders Switzerland has with its EU neighbours. As Switzerland is in Schengen it has free movement of people but as it's not in the EU customs union there is no free movement for goods. How this works in practice is that small road border crossings are unmanned while at larger road border crossings cars just drive through (apart from the odd check for the Swiss motorway toll sticker) but trucks park up and get the requisite checks done/signed off.

If Scottish independence occurs under a Labour government, I can see Labour using the shake-up to start to unpick some of the mess that Brexit has left.

[archie]

If Scottish independence occurs under a Labour government, I can see Labour using the shake-up to start to unpick some of the mess that Brexit has left.
I just wish parties had worked together when there was a chance to keep us in the single market.

[Ozyhibby]

I just wish parties had worked together when there was a chance to keep us in the single market.

I’m beginning to think the UK will end up back in the single market anyway. Already there are voices in the Tory party talking about this.
Will take away any border chat for Indy campaign but also it may be enough for some pro EU yes voters to switch.


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[JeMeSouviens]

I just wish parties had worked together when there was a chance to keep us in the single market.

They did and there wasn't. The "indicative votes" didn't include the government payroll, so even if a SM option had got past that stage it would have been instantly squashed. May was on record as saying she would never advance that option anyway.

[Jones28]

Thanks everyone for the responses, very informative and hopefully will help answer other peoples questions around the border issue!

[archie]

They did and there wasn't. The "indicative votes" didn't include the government payroll, so even if a SM option had got past that stage it would have been instantly squashed. May was on record as saying she would never advance that option anyway.
Ken Clark vote discussed here
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/01/soft-brexiters-hope-brexit-fatigue-could-sway-tory-mps

[archie]

Thanks everyone for the responses, very informative and hopefully will help answer other peoples questions around the border issue!

Unlikely as it's not in Scotland's gift alone to specify border arrangements.

[JeMeSouviens]

ken clark vote discussed here
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/01/soft-brexiters-hope-brexit-fatigue-could-sway-tory-mps

cu != sm

[archie]

cu != sm

???????

[archie]

???????

Or should I say 'no text speak'!

[JeMeSouviens]

???????

Customs union doesn't equal single market (and I am a lazy typist).

The actual vote on the SM (called Common Market 2.0 in the indicative votes) went down 282 to 261. Considering that govt ministers didn't take part in indicative votes, it was a long way short of getting the sort of support it needed to get through any binding vote.

[archie]

Customs union doesn't equal single market (and I am a lazy typist).

The actual vote on the SM (called Common Market 2.0 in the indicative votes) went down 282 to 261. Considering that govt ministers didn't take part in indicative votes, it was a long way short of getting the sort of support it needed to get through any binding vote.
Were the SNP members instructed to abstain?

[JeMeSouviens]

Were the SNP members instructed to abstain?

Dunno. Doubt it, cos only 3 of them did. :dunno:

Ayes 261 - 185 Lab, 33 Con, 32 SNP, 2 Lib, 5 Others
Nos 282 - 228 Con, 25 Lab, 10 DUP, 4 Lib
Abs 106 - 52 Con, 33 Lab, 5 Lib, 3 SNP, 2 Others

[archie]

Dunno. Doubt it, cos only 3 of them did. :dunno:

Ayes 261 - 185 Lab, 33 Con, 32 SNP, 2 Lib, 5 Others
Nos 282 - 228 Con, 25 Lab, 10 DUP, 4 Lib
Abs 106 - 52 Con, 33 Lab, 5 Lib, 3 SNP, 2 Others

I think we're at cross purposes here. I'm talking about the Ken Clark motion on a customs union that was defeated by three votes

[JeMeSouviens]

I think we're at cross purposes here. I'm talking about the Ken Clark motion on a customs union that was defeated by three votes

Why did you start off talking about the Single Market then?

[Ozyhibby]

Unlikely as it's not in Scotland's gift alone to specify border arrangements.

Border arrangement are agreed between the EU and UK govts. The current arrangements will require checks on physical goods.
Free movement of people will continue.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Border arrangement are agreed between the EU and UK govts. The current arrangements will require checks on physical goods.
Free movement of people will continue.


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The rUK could block iScotland joining the CTA. It would be solely out of spite, but it could happen. I would certainly expect them to adopt it as their public campaigning position.

[Ozyhibby]

The rUK could block iScotland joining the CTA. It would be solely out of spite, but it could happen. I would certainly expect them to adopt it as their public campaigning position.

Your probably right for the campaign. Afterwards would be a very different matter. English public opinion would be against such a non-sensical idea.
It was the same with the pound last time. For the campaign it was rUK refusing to allow iScotland to keep pound but had the vote went the other way they would have been desperate to keep us using the pound as without our exports(incl Oil) the pound would have plummeted.


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[archie]

Why did you start off talking about the Single Market then?
OK - but I did reference the Ken Clark motion which was discussed in the attached link to the Guardian.

[archie]

Your probably right for the campaign. Afterwards would be a very different matter. English public opinion would be against such a non-sensical idea.
It was the same with the pound last time. For the campaign it was rUK refusing to allow iScotland to keep pound but had the vote went the other way they would have been desperate to keep us using the pound as without our exports(incl Oil) the pound would have plummeted.


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The UK Govt position was not refusing to allow Scotland to use the pound (any country could) it was refusing to allow a formal currency union.

[Moulin Yarns]

The UK Govt position was not refusing to allow Scotland to use the pound (any country could) it was refusing to allow a formal currency union.

Why would they do that? The channel islands are in a currency union with the UK, it doesn't seem to be hugely problematic.

[archie]

Why would they do that? The channel islands are in a currency union with the UK, it doesn't seem to be hugely problematic.

I guess the question is what would be in it for rUK? They would want to manage the currency in the interests of rUK. Why bring Scotland into that? The Channel Islands and IoM are British Crown Dependencies, whereas Scotland would be independent.

[archie]

I guess the question is what would be in it for rUK? They would want to manage the currency in the interests of rUK. Why bring Scotland into that? The Channel Islands and IoM are British Crown Dependencies, whereas Scotland would be independent.

I don't know what influence the crown dependencies have on UK monetary policy, where I'm sure Scotland would want influence.

[archie]

Why would they do that? The channel islands are in a currency union with the UK, it doesn't seem to be hugely problematic.

As an aside, I've just realised that your user name is 'Moulin Yarns'. I always read it as 'Moulin YAMS'!

[ronaldo7]

As an aside, I've just realised that your user name is 'Moulin Yarns'. I always read it as 'Moulin YAMS'!

He's always spinning a yarn.

I had you down as Erchie. 😂

[Ozyhibby]

I guess the question is what would be in it for rUK? They would want to manage the currency in the interests of rUK. Why bring Scotland into that? The Channel Islands and IoM are British Crown Dependencies, whereas Scotland would be independent.

There would be a lot in it for the UK which I mentioned in my post. It’s academic now though as the last campaign has moved the SG to go in a different direction. No point in giving the UK a veto.


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[archie]

He's always spinning a yarn.

I had you down as Erchie. 😂

Now now!

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't know what influence the crown dependencies have on UK monetary policy, where I'm sure Scotland would want influence.

Well, considering the Isle of man has one of the oldest Parliaments and its own central Bank I imagine that it has no influence on the UK monetary policy, because it has its own.

[James310]

Well, considering the Isle of man has one of the oldest Parliaments and its own central Bank I imagine that it has no influence on the UK monetary policy, because it has its own.

So why did you reference them? What point were you trying to make in terms of Scottish Independence?

[Moulin Yarns]

The Isle of Man has a unique constitutional relationship with the United Kingdom which enables it to elect its own Government, make its own laws, levy its own taxes and control expenditure.

The nurturing of a low personal and company taxation policy has led to the establishment of a vibrant and successful finance centre and therefore it is fitting also that it should issue its own currency, the Manx pound, which is equivalent in value to its United Kingdom counterpart, however can not be spent outside of the Isle of Man.

The issue of its own currency is a positive statement of independence and the power of self determination. It is also an important source of investment income which would otherwise accrue to the United Kingdom if that country's currency was allowed to displace it.


Imagine being the Isle of man? 🤔

[James310]

The Isle of Man has a unique constitutional relationship with the United Kingdom which enables it to elect its own Government, make its own laws, levy its own taxes and control expenditure.

The nurturing of a low personal and company taxation policy has led to the establishment of a vibrant and successful finance centre and therefore it is fitting also that it should issue its own currency, the Manx pound, which is equivalent in value to its United Kingdom counterpart, however can not be spent outside of the Isle of Man.

The issue of its own currency is a positive statement of independence and the power of self determination. It is also an important source of investment income which would otherwise accrue to the United Kingdom if that country's currency was allowed to displace it.


Imagine being the Isle of man? 🤔

Here was me thinking you wanted Independence? You actually want a Crown Dependency tax haven though?

[archie]

Well, considering the Isle of man has one of the oldest Parliaments and its own central Bank I imagine that it has no influence on the UK monetary policy, because it has its own.

Are you sure about the central bank?

[Moulin Yarns]

Are you sure about the central bank?

That's a full copy and paste from the Isle of man government


A wee island in the Irish sea has its own central Bank