Scottish Independence

[Swedish hibee]

Rally this Sunday- https://www.facebook.com/events/736614813060306/?unit_ref=related_events

[degenerated]

Just been watching the conference report and they really are all over the place with it. They obviously though a No vote would mean case closed so now they just don't have a clue what to do.
I'm just watching anas sarwar making a bit of a fud of himself on Scotland 2014. He has no idea why Labour are a busted flush in Scotland and when Dennis canavan tried to give him a hint he went off, after a stutter that Elmer fudd would be proud of, on one about their referendum win and completely ignored what had been pointed out to him.

[The_Exile]

4. A wide range of domestic and international business opinion spoke out to say that they thought the economic consequences for Scotland of separating would be very damaging.

130 business leaders spoke out against independence, yet 200 business leaders backed independence. Not many people know about the 200 as it wasn't mentioned in the mainstream media.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/in-full-the-list-of-entrepreneurs-backing-a-yes-vote.1409201147

[snooky]

...Right now it wouldn't surprise me to see Jeb Bush as the Returning Officer, y'awl.



And to think I considered my pre-ref line to be a bit (ironically) left field!

http://youtu.be/DcL69gUtPb0

Sampling? WTF?

[snooky]

This low blow - the Vow presumably - being the one that Salmond described at the time as worthless and which he said no-one would be fooled by. Now its the entire reason why Yes lost.

Quite a lot of post-event rationalisation going on here.

Remember what the Survation guy said when all the pollsters were interviewed? No started out at around 55% at the beginning of the campaign and finished at about 55% at the end of it. So the intervening Vow - if it had any effect - took the No vote no higher than it had been previously.

The key factors in losing it for Yes were (IMO):

1. Salmond could not answer the difficult questions because he was trying to assert that everything would be all right rather than evidence it.
2. A very large proportion of people simply do not want Scotland to be a separate country.
3. A large number of voters felt that the Yes campaign was aggressive and it unsettled them.
4. A wide range of domestic and international business opinion spoke out to say that they thought the economic consequences for Scotland of separating would be very damaging.

I was actually referring to all the low blows throughout the campaign, ODS.
Fair do's though. You will have a different perspective on the No campaign's tactics than I have, and I accept that.

I was just giving my tuppenceworth on why the "45s" will carry on.

To give you my view on your points
1. We were told we couldn't use the £ for ages then Darling said in the last debate "Of course Scotland could use the pound"
2. If 54% is a very large portion, what would you call 46%?
3. I'm sorry, but I had to smile at this one - kettle/teapot.
4. A large number said the opposite but oddly enough didn't get any media coverage.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. :Awright!:

[The_Exile]

Labour's stance on the NHS over a period of 5 days.

13522

I posted this on the Gordon Brown thread before I saw this, it'll get swept under the carpet, but Labour No voters I know are livid.

[lord bunberry]

I posted this on the Gordon Brown thread before I saw this, it'll get swept under the carpet, but Labour No voters I know are livid.
It's laughable really, Labour need to go back to the drawing board and start again and be a proper left of centre party.

[Beefster]

Rally this Sunday- https://www.facebook.com/events/736614813060306/?unit_ref=related_events

Just to return the favour, it's Öland's Harvest Festival this weekend.

http://www.skordefest.nu

[marinello59]

130 business leaders spoke out against independence, yet 200 business leaders backed independence. Not many people know about the 200 as it wasn't mentioned in the mainstream media.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/in-full-the-list-of-entrepreneurs-backing-a-yes-vote.1409201147

Seriously? Isn't the Herald a mainstream newspaper?

How about the Guardian?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/10/scottish-independence-businesses-yes-no-camp

The BBC?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-28960729

Sky?

http://news.sky.com/story/1325985/business-leaders-back-scottish-independence

It was widely reported. it seems to be that we have moved on from saying that democracy was the winner last week to suggesting that only those who voted Yes were capable of making an informed decision so the result doesn't count.

[One Day Soon]

Not enough capital letters here for me to decipher...Sorry:wink:


Like Mr Salmond's answers to difficult questions during the Referendum, your point is not clear.

[Tyler Durden]

Seriously? Isn't the Herald a mainstream newspaper?

How about the Guardian?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/10/scottish-independence-businesses-yes-no-camp

The BBC?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-28960729

Sky?

http://news.sky.com/story/1325985/business-leaders-back-scottish-independence

It was widely reported. it seems to be that we have moved on from saying that democracy was the winner last week to suggesting that only those who voted Yes were capable of making an informed decision so the result doesn't count.

And also suggesting that anyone over 60 isn't fit to make a decision as apparently they only watch the BBC and read the Daily Record.

Embarrassing.

[sauzee_4]

And also suggesting that anyone over 60 isn't fit to make a decision as apparently they only watch the BBC and read the Daily Record.

Embarrassing.

The Yes camp need to get behind the radical change we are looking for from the UK.

I know that the changes I want to see from the Union are highly unlikely to happen but it is important to show co-operation. People will, in their own time realise that the Union is dead (I think.)

It will be evolution not revolution.

So here's to a Nuclear Free UK with a PR-voting system, a less agressive foreign policy which doesn't sell arms to Israel and a referendum on the Monarchy :D

[JimBHibees]

Like Mr Salmond's answers to difficult questions during the Referendum, your point is not clear.

Certainly seemed clear enough in the 2nd tv debate where he absolutely wiped the floor with Darling.

[over the line]

The Yes camp need to get behind the radical change we are looking for from the UK.

I know that the changes I want to see from the Union are highly unlikely to happen but it is important to show co-operation. People will, in their own time realise that the Union is dead (I think.)

It will be evolution not revolution.

So here's to a Nuclear Free UK with a PR-voting system, a less agressive foreign policy which doesn't sell arms to Israel and a referendum on the Monarchy :D

Wow that will take some evolving won't it?!?!? That's more of a complete change of DNA, as opposed to evolution. ;):)

I totally agree with the yes camp getting on board with the movement for change though. Everyone should forget about another referendum, not going to happen again for decades. The result is in and its over now. The referendum has highlighted the need for change, whether you were Yes or No. There is some real momentum for proper, meaningful change now and if both sides accept the result and concentrate on making Scotland and the UK a better place, it will benefit everyone. It obviously wasn't the result the Yes side wanted, but it also isn't a complete disaster, things will change, IMHO.

[TrinityHibs]

Certainly seemed clear enough in the 2nd tv debate where he absolutely wiped the floor with Darling.

There is no doubt that Salmond came out top in the second debate Jim. However I am still waiting for him to confirm exactly what currency we were supposed to use as currency union was not an option. I believe he lost the referendum on this point and everything that spun out of it. Saying that Westminster would capitulate on this as they had to/couldn't afford not to/was in their best interest to was at best wishful thinking.

With regard to the debates Darling won the first one, Salmond learned and won the second, Ruth Davidson learned and out-debated Sturgeon using Salmonds tactics, Jim Murphy and Dennis Canavan then took it too far and were an embarrassment. Asking questions and then answering them yourself by talking over your opponent rarely leads to sensible debate. It certainly did not answer difficult questions.

[CropleyWasGod]

There is no doubt that Salmond came out top in the second debate Jim. However I am still waiting for him to confirm exactly what currency we were supposed to use as currency union was not an option. I believe he lost the referendum on this point and everything that spun out of it. Saying that Westminster would capitulate on this as they had to/couldn't afford not to/was in their best interest to was at best wishful thinking.

.

... which is where the Yes and No camps differ. You made a judgement that it wasn't an option. I made one that it was, indeed was most likely.

Neither stance was fact, but more an expression of opinion on who was saying what, and why.

[JeMeSouviens]

There is no doubt that Salmond came out top in the second debate Jim. However I am still waiting for him to confirm exactly what currency we were supposed to use as currency union was not an option. I believe he lost the referendum on this point and everything that spun out of it. Saying that Westminster would capitulate on this as they had to/couldn't afford not to/was in their best interest to was at best wishful thinking.

With regard to the debates Darling won the first one, Salmond learned and won the second, Ruth Davidson learned and out-debated Sturgeon using Salmonds tactics, Jim Murphy and Dennis Canavan then took it too far and were an embarrassment. Asking questions and then answering them yourself by talking over your opponent rarely leads to sensible debate. It certainly did not answer difficult questions.

Obviously we won't know until the BTNT lot start publishing their memoirs but I think the UK CU stance probably was negotiable, Carney's form of words, "CU is incompatible with sovereignty" were laying the ground in the direction of selling fiscal oversight as a Scottish cave-in.

However, I do totally agree that it was handled really badly and Yes needed a robustly arguable back up plan. It wasn't as if Salmond went in to the first debate not knowing it was Darling's trump card. They should've identified a single Plan B and he should've explained it and argued for it in his opening statement.

On the debates in general, I thought it was really disappointing that none of the broadcasters went beyond the same old tired political shouting match format. We should've had Stiglitz vs Krugman arguing the economics, Devine vs Ferguson arguing the historical perspective, the Yes NATO ambassador vs a random crusty ex-general arguing defence, etc, etc.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Rally this Sunday- https://www.facebook.com/events/736614813060306/?unit_ref=related_events

I will be in Edinburgh that day, but I'm a wee bit uncomfortable with the idea of this rally.

I think it will achieve very little and certainly not a recount .... the press will jump on this as "Yes voters in sour grapes rally" and the BT parties will do everything they can to make it look like the SNP, Greens etc, if not behind it, are at least encouraging it ...... I.E. Nationalist show their true colours and refuse to accept result of democratic vote....... Why hand them a stick to beat you with?

The vote is over and its now time to move on. It is hugely encouraging that the parties who supported Yes have shown a huge increase in membership in the last few days, 20,000 to the SNP alone.

But IMO many of these will be people who joined up out of annoyance rather than ideology or a huge desire to get into politics and in a years time it will be interesting to see how many renew their membership. But if even 50% continue to be involved after that .... what a result!

There will be another referendum in, 5 years, 10 years, who knows ..... But there will be one.

[The Harp Awakes]

There is no doubt that Salmond came out top in the second debate Jim. However I am still waiting for him to confirm exactly what currency we were supposed to use as currency union was not an option. I believe he lost the referendum on this point and everything that spun out of it. Saying that Westminster would capitulate on this as they had to/couldn't afford not to/was in their best interest to was at best wishful thinking.

With regard to the debates Darling won the first one, Salmond learned and won the second, Ruth Davidson learned and out-debated Sturgeon using Salmonds tactics, Jim Murphy and Dennis Canavan then took it too far and were an embarrassment. Asking questions and then answering them yourself by talking over your opponent rarely leads to sensible debate. It certainly did not answer difficult questions.

You are kidding yourself on if you think Ruth Davidson out-debated Nicola Sturgeon during the campaign.

Sturgeon made mincemeat of Davidson in the Hydro debate attended by 8000 16/17 year olds. Up until that point the polls were indicating that the 16-17 year old age group was against independence whereas on Thursday they voted 71% yes. I think Nicola's performance at the Hydro and the connection she clearly made with the audience as the debate went on, was a big part in that age group voting overwhelmingly yes.

[The_Exile]

Seriously? Isn't the Herald a mainstream newspaper?

How about the Guardian?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/10/scottish-independence-businesses-yes-no-camp

The BBC?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-28960729

Sky?

http://news.sky.com/story/1325985/business-leaders-back-scottish-independence

It was widely reported. it seems to be that we have moved on from saying that democracy was the winner last week to suggesting that only those who voted Yes were capable of making an informed decision so the result doesn't count.

Fair play, I personally never seen it reported on the BBC or Sky news on the tellybox but it clearly was.

[TrinityHibs]

You are kidding yourself on if you think Ruth Davidson out-debated Nicola Sturgeon during the campaign.

Sturgeon made mincemeat of Davidson in the Hydro debate attended by 8000 16/17 year olds. Up until that point the polls were indicating that the 16-17 year old age group was against independence whereas on Thursday they voted 71% yes. I think Nicola's performance at the Hydro and the connection she clearly made with the audience as the debate went on, was a big part in that age group voting overwhelmingly yes.

I was referring to the debate immediately after the second Salmond/Darling debate THA. Where Salmond came out aggressively and talked over Darling. Davidson then used the same tactic with Sturgeon which rattled her. It did all end in farce with Cannavan and Murphy embarrassing themselves. Sturgeon did well at the Hydro although the abiding memory I have of that debate was the genuine enthusiasm of the youngsters as opposed to any knockout punches from the politicians. It was a great event and Salmond's tactic to get 16/17 year olds involved was sound from the Yes perspective. I actually thought that Sturgeon and Davidson both came across better than Salmond and Darling as the Referendum drew closer.

[steakbake]

Cameron is weighing up axing the Barnett Formula, forcing inevitable tax increases (using our new powers in the devolution settlement).

Did no voters vote for that, too? Was that what people voted for?

[Peevemor]

Cameron is weighing up axing the Barnett Formula, forcing inevitable tax increases (using our new powers in the devolution settlement).

Did no voters vote for that, too? Was that what people voted for?

At least your pension will be safe - once you get to 70!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-103952/Retirement-age-raised-70.html

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/asda-to-apologise-to-scotland?bucket=blast



We want Asda CEO Andy Clarke to publicly apologise to the electorate of Scotland for releasing a statement likely to affect the outcome of the referendum on Scottish independence.

[sauzee_4]

Wow that will take some evolving won't it?!?!? That's more of a complete change of DNA, as opposed to evolution. ;):)

I totally agree with the yes camp getting on board with the movement for change though. Everyone should forget about another referendum, not going to happen again for decades. The result is in and its over now. The referendum has highlighted the need for change, whether you were Yes or No. There is some real momentum for proper, meaningful change now and if both sides accept the result and concentrate on making Scotland and the UK a better place, it will benefit everyone. It obviously wasn't the result the Yes side wanted, but it also isn't a complete disaster, things will change, IMHO.
Haha agreed :) It is whether the changes can be radical enough that will determine whether there is another referendum. I suspect they won't be but everyone has to accept the result and try. Step 1. Milliband stops whining and agrees to English votes for English laws? Step 2. Proportional Representation at Westminster?

[One Day Soon]

You are kidding yourself on if you think Ruth Davidson out-debated Nicola Sturgeon during the campaign.

Sturgeon made mincemeat of Davidson in the Hydro debate attended by 8000 16/17 year olds. Up until that point the polls were indicating that the 16-17 year old age group was against independence whereas on Thursday they voted 71% yes. I think Nicola's performance at the Hydro and the connection she clearly made with the audience as the debate went on, was a big part in that age group voting overwhelmingly yes.

Sauce?

[One Day Soon]

Cameron is weighing up axing the Barnett Formula, forcing inevitable tax increases (using our new powers in the devolution settlement).

Did no voters vote for that, too? Was that what people voted for?

Sauce for this too?

[RyeSloan]

You are kidding yourself on if you think Ruth Davidson out-debated Nicola Sturgeon during the campaign. Sturgeon made mincemeat of Davidson in the Hydro debate attended by 8000 16/17 year olds. Up until that point the polls were indicating that the 16-17 year old age group was against independence whereas on Thursday they voted 71% yes. I think Nicola's performance at the Hydro and the connection she clearly made with the audience as the debate went on, was a big part in that age group voting overwhelmingly yes.

No matter how they voted I'm still not sure that 16-18 years is the correct demographic to give a vote to...the majority of who will still be in full time education and never had the joys of having to work to make a living.

[TrinityHibs]

Sauce?

It was in the Guardian. 71/29 for 16-17 and 27/73 for 65+

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll

That's the link

[CropleyWasGod]

No matter how they voted I'm still not sure that 16-18 years is the correct demographic to give a vote to...the majority of who will still be in full time education and never had the joys of having to work to make a living.

... and off we go on the question of what that age-group can do :greengrin

Drive

Smoke

Have sex

Get married

Join the army (kill foreigners?)

But not vote.....

:worms:

[Sir David Gray]

... and off we go on the question of what that age-group can do :greengrin

Drive

Smoke

Have sex

Get married

Join the army (kill foreigners?)

But not vote.....

:worms:

I'm no fan of Alex Salmond, nor would I ever vote SNP but I fully supported the decision to give the vote to 16 and 17 year olds last week. As far as the law's concerned, you're basically an adult at 16 so having the right to vote makes sense to me.

I would extend that right to all UK elections from now on.

PS-You can't (legally) buy cigarettes until you're 18 now. :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm no fan of Alex Salmond, nor would I ever vote SNP but I fully supported the decision to give the vote to 16 and 17 year olds last week. As far as the law's concerned, you're basically an adult at 16 so having the right to vote makes sense to me.

I would extend that right to all UK elections from now on.

PS-You can't (legally) smoke until you're 18 now. :wink:

Cheers... didn't know that. Just goes to show how much of a mess it actually is.

[Sir David Gray]

Cheers... didn't know that. Just goes to show how much of a mess it actually is.

You got in too quickly there before I made a quick edit!

In Scotland and Northern Ireland you can't purchase tobacco or smoke publicly until you're 18.

In England and Wales you can't purchase tobacco until you're 18 but there doesn't appear to be any legislation against smoking in public or private in regards to a minimum age.

[One Day Soon]

It was in the Guardian. 71/29 for 16-17 and 27/73 for 65+

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll

That's the link


Ok, I've had a look and the sample size for that analysis of 16-17 year olds is just 14 people. It is so small as to be pretty much meaningless.

16-17 year olds might have voted Yes more than No, but if they did this isn't the evidence to support it.

[hibsbollah]

Miliband giving votes to 16-17 year olds now. New announcement I believe?

[RyeSloan]

... and off we go on the question of what that age-group can do :greengrin Drive Smoke Have sex Get married Join the army (kill foreigners?) But not vote..... :worms: Ha ha fair point...personally I wouldn't let them do any of the above...;-)

But that's only cause an getting auld and a parent..sure I thought differently when I was 16!!!

[Peevemor]

Always thought he was a good guy. :duck:

13528

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The Yes camp need to get behind the radical change we are looking for from the UK.

I know that the changes I want to see from the Union are highly unlikely to happen but it is important to show co-operation. People will, in their own time realise that the Union is dead (I think.)

It will be evolution not revolution.

So here's to a Nuclear Free UK with a PR-voting system, a less agressive foreign policy which doesn't sell arms to Israel and a referendum on the Monarchy :D


Personally I think it is dangerous to talk about things like the above in regards to the constitutional discussions we are having.

The above are policy decisions, made by whatever legislature has that particular competency (for example, competency over defence will never be devolved below UK level, and rightly so). The constitution is about where the decisions should be made - not what they should be.

I support independence, but I am not against nuclear weapons on any moral level - I think an independent Scotland could do better things with the money - but from a UK perspective (federal, devolved or whatever) I think they are necessary. I think the campaign to win over those who voted no has to be careful about becoming (or being seen to be become) some sort of socialist movement.

frankly, you could make a case that to convince more of the 55%, you actually need to start having far more right of centre messages that will attract more voters from the real wealth generating centres of Edinburgh and Aberdeen, which were both convincingly No.

[The_Exile]

http://www.childrenssociety.org.uk/news-and-blogs/press-releases/child-benefit-plan-would-hit-13-million-children

£400 a year worse off for families, pushing more children into poverty. Are Labour on a suicide mission here? :dunno:

[The Harp Awakes]

I was referring to the debate immediately after the second Salmond/Darling debate THA. Where Salmond came out aggressively and talked over Darling. Davidson then used the same tactic with Sturgeon which rattled her. It did all end in farce with Cannavan and Murphy embarrassing themselves. Sturgeon did well at the Hydro although the abiding memory I have of that debate was the genuine enthusiasm of the youngsters as opposed to any knockout punches from the politicians. It was a great event and Salmond's tactic to get 16/17 year olds involved was sound from the Yes perspective. I actually thought that Sturgeon and Davidson both came across better than Salmond and Darling as the Referendum drew closer.

Ok, fair do's. I understand your point.

[marinello59]

A decent debate from Holyrood today with MSPs from all parties performing well. The future ain't going to be that bad.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Always thought he was a good guy. :duck:

13528

Aw crap ........ how do I cancel my subscription :greengrin

[snooky]

Always thought he was a good guy. :duck:

13528

This is disasterous news for the SNP.
Much much worse than the devo-max card.
:eek:

BTW, That'll be him out the 'parade' :wink:

[One Day Soon]

This is disasterous news for the SNP.
Much much worse than the devo-max card.
:eek:

BTW, That'll be him out the 'parade' :wink:


Heh heh. Never thought of this kind of silver lining. Wonder who else we can get rid of?

[steakbake]

Haha devastating... think they're safe from Farage though...

Having said that, he's probably doing it to provoke a reaction from the Loyal fans. The guy is a complete fandango.

[One Day Soon]

Haha devastating... think they're safe from Farage though...

Having said that, he's probably doing it to provoke a reaction from the Loyal fans. The guy is a complete fandango.

Amen to that. How he ever got - and then kept - a job running that phone in with BBC Scotland is beyond me.

[degenerated]

This didn't take long http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/23/479808f055dcc2ba9e0fb3d0a2f20b95.jpg

[Peevemor]

This didn't take long http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/23/479808f055dcc2ba9e0fb3d0a2f20b95.jpg

It is a huuuuuuge surprise though.

[One Day Soon]

This didn't take long http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/23/479808f055dcc2ba9e0fb3d0a2f20b95.jpg
So just to be clear, you think we should get extra tax powers and retain all the Barnett money?

[Peevemor]

So just to be clear, you think we should get extra tax powers and retain all the Barnett money?

I don't think people in Scotland should have to pay more taxes to make up the deficit.

[Hibrandenburg]

So just to be clear, you think we should get extra tax powers and retain all the Barnett money?

Can't speak for him but I think we should get even more, independence for example.

[degenerated]

So just to be clear, you think we should get extra tax powers and retain all the Barnett money?
Was the clarified in the big vow?

[Mikey09]

Can't speak for him but I think we should get even more, independence for example.


Nah!!! Vote for less power for more power..... It's the way forward don't you know?? 6 of the best for you ma lad.... :slipper:

[over the line]

Can't speak for him but I think we should get even more, independence for example.

Hey there's an idea, why don't they have a referend......um........ oh no wait a minute....... ;):)

[degenerated]

Hey there's an idea, why don't they have a referend......um........ oh wait a minute....... ;):)
Perhaps if they did people would have seen Labour rattling on about nhs privatisation and Cameron's plans to let us increase taxes but cut our pocket money.

http://youtu.be/_8mduTEvnU0

[allmodcons]

Amen to that. How he ever got - and then kept - a job running that phone in with BBC Scotland is beyond me.

He was card carrying member of the Labour Party:0)

[Swedish hibee]

Just to return the favour, it's Öland's Harvest Festival this weekend.

http://www.skordefest.nu


:party::faf::taxi HaHaHa, Edinburgh here I come!!!!!!!

[Swedish hibee]

This didn't take long http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/23/479808f055dcc2ba9e0fb3d0a2f20b95.jpg

Wonder if the 'poor' shall suffer again.. This shall be interesting to see what he does next.

[ronaldo7]

So Blair admits to the scaremongering tactics. I wonder if we'll get any from the no camp denying it now?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/sirajdatoo/better-together-campaign-chief-we-would-have-struggled-to-wi#3lu0cke

[McIntosh]

At least your pension will be safe - once you get to 70!


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-103952/Retirement-age-raised-70.html

When was this article written?

[Peevemor]

When was this article written?

Oops. Well spotted.

[sauzee_4]

Personally I think it is dangerous to talk about things like the above in regards to the constitutional discussions we are having.

The above are policy decisions, made by whatever legislature has that particular competency (for example, competency over defence will never be devolved below UK level, and rightly so). The constitution is about where the decisions should be made - not what they should be.

I support independence, but I am not against nuclear weapons on any moral level - I think an independent Scotland could do better things with the money - but from a UK perspective (federal, devolved or whatever) I think they are necessary. I think the campaign to win over those who voted no has to be careful about becoming (or being seen to be become) some sort of socialist movement.

frankly, you could make a case that to convince more of the 55%, you actually need to start having far more right of centre messages that will attract more voters from the real wealth generating centres of Edinburgh and Aberdeen, which were both convincingly No.

I don't wanting those things make you a socialist though

Agree with most of your other points, think it's the labour vote which is more likely to erode than the Tory vote.

[steakbake]

So Blair admits to the scaremongering tactics. I wonder if we'll get any from the no camp denying it now?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/sirajdatoo/better-together-campaign-chief-we-would-have-struggled-to-wi#3lu0cke

The No Camp has disbanded with a decision in the bag that gives them the mandate to squabble about our futures.

[The_Exile]

The No Camp has disbanded with a decision in the bag that gives them the mandate to squabble about our futures.

Yup, distraction is over so it's back to business as usual. Although Allan Grogan has just resigned from the Labour party, his resignation statement I imagine will speak for a lot of Labour voters, and I'm sure a fair number of LFI will follow.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yup, distraction is over so it's back to business as usual. Although Allan Grogan has just resigned from the Labour party, his resignation statement I imagine will speak for a lot of Labour voters, and I'm sure a fair number of LFI will follow.

Really?

Allan Grogan's gone? FFS! That's serious :agree:

in fact, that's difficult.

It's actually really difficult.

It puts the rest of us in a really difficult position, as continuing Labour Party members.

It forces us to ask ourselves a serious question, and there's no easy answer to this.

Nevertheless, in the spirit of progressive democratic socialism, it needs asking :agree:

And that question is:

WTF do you do if you have never heard of Allan Grogan, let alone met him or even given a nanosecond to considering whether you give a flying one to considering his opinion??? :greengrin

[The_Exile]

Haha! I suppose my main point is that as leader of the Labour for Independence movement (over 2, 000 members apparently) he'll probably be the first of many to resign from Scottish Labour. That's if they haven't already and joined the SNP who are now sitting at 55, 000 members. Crisis time!

[Mibbes Aye]

Haha! I suppose my main point is that as leader of the Labour for Independence movement he'll probsbly be the first of many to resign from Scottish Labour. Crisis time!

Well, if he's the leader of the People's Labour Front for Judean Independence - I'm sure he used to be in the Popular Independent Front for Judean Labour mind you - then he's almost certainly the first of at least one to resign.

It's no loss. Let's face it, the left hasn't exactly been immune to people going off to do their own thing over the last two hundred years :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

Hey there's an idea, why don't they have a referend......um........ oh no wait a minute....... ;):)

There's many ways to skin a cat :wink:

[marinello59]

There's many ways to skin a cat :wink:

Alex Salmond stated categorically yesterday that his believed there has to be a referendum before we gain Independence as it's the only way to allow the sovereignty of the Scottish people to prevail. He's right.

[Stranraer]

Miliband giving votes to 16-17 year olds now. New announcement I believe?

I don't like the idea of 16 year olds deciding our Government.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't like the idea of 16 year olds deciding our Government.

They can defend you from ISIL.

They can pay tax.

:cb

[JimBHibees]

I don't like the idea of 16 year olds deciding our Government.

I would trust them more than the oldies if the referendum is anything to go by. :greengrin

[Betty Boop]

They can defend you from ISIL.

They can pay tax.

:cb

I doubt many 16 year olds earn enough to pay tax.

[One Day Soon]

I would trust them more than the oldies if the referendum is anything to go by. :greengrin

You sure? :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

I doubt many 16 year olds earn enough to pay tax.

My point is that, legally, they are liable to tax. Going by the "no taxation without representation" mantra, that should (in some people's minds) entitle them to have a say over how their (notional) contribution to society should be spent.

That said, the Queen pays tax and she doesn't get a vote. :greengrin

Edit... Under16's are liable to tax too, I know, I know....

[(((Fergus)))]

I doubt many 16 year olds earn enough to pay tax.

Anyone who buys stuff retail with their own wages pays a 20 percent surcharge to the government.

[steakbake]

Think we need to get away from this monetary view of who deserves representation. People make contributions to society in many ways. Tax is a crude example of one.

Basically, if you're 16, you're entering the adult world and should be entitled to a say, tax payer or non tax payer.

[One Day Soon]

Think we need to get away from this monetary view of who deserves representation. People make contributions to society in many ways. Tax is a crude example of one.

Basically, if you're 16, you're entering the adult world and should be entitled to a say, tax payer or non tax payer.


I am, reluctantly, inclined to agree with that.

[steakbake]

I am, reluctantly, inclined to agree with that.

Then I'm in good company with my views.

[CropleyWasGod]

Think we need to get away from this monetary view of who deserves representation. People make contributions to society in many ways. Tax is a crude example of one.

Basically, if you're 16, you're entering the adult world and should be entitled to a say, tax payer or non tax payer.
Agreed. :)

[Hibrandenburg]

Think we need to get away from this monetary view of who deserves representation. People make contributions to society in many ways. Tax is a crude example of one.

Basically, if you're 16, you're entering the adult world and should be entitled to a say, tax payer or non tax payer.

Agreed, also if you're 16 you're about to start your adult life and should be given a say in how your future pans out (or not if you happen to be 16 in Scotland)

:wink:

[degenerated]

Embargo must have been lifted at the BBC http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/24/54aa4aeb943669eff7d9006df27270a8.jpg

[marinello59]

Embargo must have been lifted at the BBC http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/24/54aa4aeb943669eff7d9006df27270a8.jpg

This 'secret' oil stuff really has done my head in. All the conspiracy stuff that was posted on Facebook and elsewhere was in the main crap. Everything that the BBC and the press were accused of not reporting on had been reported on extensively on the BBC and the press.(At lot of the FB reports hilariously linked to main stream media reports on the 'secret' oilfields' as proof that they existed.) At least people are looking beyond the central belt towards the North East more though.:greengrin One day you get optimistic stories, one day you get pessimistic stories. This is one area where there really was no media bias at all.

[The_Exile]

The Clair field and it's potential was widely reported and made the US news. It looks like it was also reported here (not on the TV news though as far as I can remember) so not sure why it wasn't referred to in any oil debates that were raging pre-referendum, I'm assuming there must have been market sensitive restrictions or something? Dunno, but 8 billion barrels. Massive.

Edit: found this from August 2013, nothing since though

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23681061

[ronaldo7]

The No Camp has disbanded with a decision in the bag that gives them the mandate to squabble about our futures.

The rump of No are still beating in the hearts of Labour/Tory/Lib Dems.

I've heard that Yes Campaign are looking at amalgamating to target dodgy seats of all three for the WM election. More to come on this.

[Mibbes Aye]

The rump of No are still beating in the hearts of Labour/Tory/Lib Dems.

I've heard that Yes Campaign are looking at amalgamating to target dodgy seats of all three for the WM election. More to come on this.

So let me get this right.

A party whose economic policy is based on oil money is getting into bed with a party who are against dependency on fossil fuels.

A party who are for redistribution of wealth are getting into bed with a party who want to cut taxes for corporations.

A party who want to remain in NATO are getting into bed with a party who want to quit and a party who want to work for its abolition.

And all this is in an attempt to subvert the "...sovereign will of the Scottish people" (Salmond, 2014) :greengrin

We said "No" guys.

Take a hint :wink:

[ronaldo7]

So let me get this right.

A party whose economic policy is based on oil money is getting into bed with a party who are against dependency on fossil fuels. Yip

A party who are for redistribution of wealth are getting into bed with a party who want to cut taxes for corporations. Yip

A party who want to remain in NATO are getting into bed with a party who want to quit and a party who want to work for its abolition. Yip

And all this is in an attempt to subvert the "...sovereign will of the Scottish people" (Salmond, 2014) :greengrin

We said "No" guys.

Take a hint :wink:

You seem to be getting a bit hot under the collar mate. If the wider Yes Campaign want to mobilize against the Labour party in Scotland then it's up to them isn't it. It's democracy Jim, but not as we know it:wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

You seem to be getting a bit hot under the collar mate. If the wider Yes Campaign want to mobilize against the Labour party in Scotland then it's up to them isn't it. It's democracy Jim, but not as we know it:wink:

I was grinning when I posted, trust me :wink:

But if you're correct the Yes campaign is getting a bit like the drunk, sleazy bloke in the club near chucking-out time. He's tried chatting up the pretty girl and she's been polite but told him "No thanks".

Yet in his intoxication he believes that he knows better, so he's not going to stop with the advances.

[marinello59]

You seem to be getting a bit hot under the collar mate. If the wider Yes Campaign want to mobilize against the Labour party in Scotland then it's up to them isn't it. It's democracy Jim, but not as we know it:wink:

It's a strange one though. Let's all ditch our principles and make sure we get a Tory Government returned at Westminster.

[ronaldo7]

I was grinning when I posted, trust me :wink:

But if you're correct the Yes campaign is getting a bit like the drunk, sleazy bloke in the club near chucking-out time. He's tried chatting up the pretty girl and she's been polite but told him "No thanks".

Yet in his intoxication he believes that he knows better, so he's not going to stop with the advances.


It's a strange one though. Let's all ditch our principles and make sure we get a Tory Government returned at Westminster.

Only posting what I'm hearing on Twitter boys.

What ever happens in the new world order of Labour/Tory/Lib Dem/Ukip, austerity is coming down the line. Hopefully we have people fighting our corner in WM for the people of Scotland.

[ronaldo7]

I was grinning when I posted, trust me :wink:

But if you're correct the Yes campaign is getting a bit like the drunk, sleazy bloke in the club near chucking-out time. He's tried chatting up the pretty girl and she's been polite but told him "No thanks".

Yet in his intoxication he believes that he knows better, so he's not going to stop with the advances.

Meanwhile the No parties slag each other off about who'll be best for the Nhs whilst leading us into another war. At least the drunk will sober up with a slap in the puss rather than a cruise missile up the jacksay.

[marinello59]

Only posting what I'm hearing on Twitter boys.

What ever happens in the new world order of Labour/Tory/Lib Dem/Ukip, austerity is coming down the line. Hopefully we have people fighting our corner in WM for the people of Scotland.

I'm not against the idea of giving Labour a well deserved kicking. :greengrin I'm just not sure that wiping them out as Scots Westminster MPs will serve any purpose other than to get the Tories in to power. The percentage vote that the No parties would still get would make claiming a mandate for another referendum difficult.

[allmodcons]

The rump of No are still beating in the hearts of Labour/Tory/Lib Dems.

I've heard that Yes Campaign are looking at amalgamating to target dodgy seats of all three for the WM election. More to come on this.

Not sure, as an SNP supporter, that I agree with this. Good news for SNP if Green or other pro Yes supporters want to vote tactically for a SNP candidate but IMO a formal 'coalition' for some of the reasons outlined by Mibbees Aye isn't particularly clever.



It's a strange one though. Let's all ditch our principles and make sure we get a Tory Government returned at Westminster.

Not sure, I agree with this either. I'd rather have 40 SNP MPs than 40 Scottish Labour MPs. A scenario where there'd be no more likelihood of a majority Tory Government.

That said, Labour's pitch in Scotland at the next GE will be "vote Labour, keep out the Tories". This after they have just gotten out of bed with Cameron and Osbourne. Ultimately though, anything the Labour Party do will be about self preservation.

[ronaldo7]

I'm not against the idea of giving Labour a well deserved kicking. :greengrin I'm just not sure that wiping them out as Scots Westminster MPs will serve any purpose other than to get the Tories in to power. The percentage vote that the No parties would still get would make claiming a mandate for another referendum difficult.

They will never be wiped out in Scotland. Not just now anyway:greengrin. Some of our 59 MP's may hold the balance of power at WM, so the more we have who are from the wider YES campaign group will be of great benefit to us.

[One Day Soon]

They will never be wiped out in Scotland. Not just now anyway:greengrin. Some of our 59 MP's may hold the balance of power at WM, so the more we have who are from the wider YES campaign group will be of great benefit to us.


That worked soooo well the last time right enough.

[MyJo]

I'm not against the idea of giving Labour a well deserved kicking. :greengrin I'm just not sure that wiping them out as Scots Westminster MPs will serve any purpose other than to get the Tories in to power. The percentage vote that the No parties would still get would make claiming a mandate for another referendum difficult.

If Scotland returns 40+ SNP MP's to westminster and the election goes the same way as last time SNP could very well be in a position to be forming a co-alition with another party to gain a majority......that would be interesting :greengrin

[NAE NOOKIE]

I'm not against the idea of giving Labour a well deserved kicking. :greengrin I'm just not sure that wiping them out as Scots Westminster MPs will serve any purpose other than to get the Tories in to power. The percentage vote that the No parties would still get would make claiming a mandate for another referendum difficult.

Its hard to see how it will go in 2015

The Lib Dems look like a busted flush ..... they have 56 MPs

Labour might pick up in England, but could well take a hit in Scotland ..... they have 256 MPs

The Tories ... not sure about them, just trailing Labour ... but they don't have an overall majority now .... 304 MPs

UKIP ... no MPs ..... but may get a few next time as the thinking mans ( sic ) BNP ?

SNP ... who knows? If the incredible increase in membership making them ( us :greengrin ) the 3rd biggest party in the UK is reflected in the general election they may end up with a good few more MPs at WM ..... 6 MPs

There is a possibility that if results fall the right way in 2015 ........... very, very slim I admit ...... that the SNP could hold the balance of power at Westminster ...... :faf:

[RyeSloan]

If Scotland returns 40+ SNP MP's to westminster and the election goes the same way as last time SNP could very well be in a position to be forming a co-alition with another party to gain a majority......that would be interesting :greengrin

I'm confused...if you take the 55% no vote as unlikely to vote for a pro Independence Party and even more likely to not do so if that party is being open in suggesting that a vote for it will raise the likelihood of another referendum or the like how will the SNP return 40+ MP's?

[The_Exile]

I'm confused...if you take the 55% no vote as unlikely to vote for a pro Independence Party and even more likely to not do so if that party is being open in suggesting that a vote for it will raise the likelihood of another referendum or the like how will the SNP return 40+ MP's?

I'm doubtful we'll get anywhere near an 85% turnout for the GE, but you can bet your hat the 45% and a fair number of the 55% who are peeved at their usual party of preference will turn up and try to vote thd SNP into power at WM. Lot of assumptions in there from me but the fact we are at unprecedented levels of public engagement in domestic politics then anything really is possible.

[Beefster]

If anyone is seriously expecting 40+ SNP MPs then they are setting themselves up for a repeat of their referendum disappointment IMHO. Not a chance of the real world number being even close.

[steakbake]

If anyone is seriously expecting 40+ SNP MPs then they are setting themselves up for a repeat of their referendum disappointment IMHO. Not a chance of the real world number being even close.

Agreed. It would be a major success if they got even close to half that.

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/snp-members-double-since-independence-referendum-1-3549827


more than 26,000 new members have joined the party since last Thursday's historic ballot.

Prior to the referendum the party had 25,642 members, but by 4pm today that had increased to 52,034



more money in the coffers, good stuff :agree:

[allmodcons]

If anyone is seriously expecting 40+ SNP MPs then they are setting themselves up for a repeat of their referendum disappointment IMHO. Not a chance of the real world number being even close.


Agreed. It would be a major success if they got even close to half that.

I think the number 40 comes from my reply to Marinello59, where I said I'd prefer 40 SNP MPs to 40 Scottish Labour MPs.

Not for a minute do I think the SNP will get 40 MPs elected at the next GE.

[allmodcons]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/snp-members-double-since-independence-referendum-1-3549827


more than 26,000 new members have joined the party since last Thursday's historic ballot.

Prior to the referendum the party had 25,642 members, but by 4pm today that had increased to 52,034



more money in the coffers, good stuff :agree:





The figure first thing this morning was 62870 members, an increase of 37228 in a week!

[cabbageandribs1875]

The figure first thing this morning was 62870 members, an increase of 37228 in a week!


the scotsman must be behind then :greengrin even better, at £12 a pop that's another 130K in the coffers :)

[Rasta_Hibs]

the scotsman must be behind then :greengrin even better, at £12 a pop that's another 130K in the coffers :)

All that energy ad to go somewhere! Shame it looks like it will all go to a party with a Nationalist ideology.

[ronaldo7]

I think the number 40 comes from my reply to Marinello59, where I said I'd prefer 40 SNP MPs to 40 Scottish Labour MPs.

Not for a minute do I think the SNP will get 40 MPs elected at the next GE.
If Scotland returns 15 it would be a miracle.

[allmodcons]

the scotsman must be behind then :greengrin even better, at £12 a pop that's another 130K in the coffers :)

If monthly subscriptions are averaging out at £4-00, that equates to an annual income of circa £3M!

[degenerated]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/snp-members-double-since-independence-referendum-1-3549827


more than 26,000 new members have joined the party since last Thursday's historic ballot.

Prior to the referendum the party had 25,642 members, but by 4pm today that had increased to 52,034



more money in the coffers, good stuff :agree:




It's 62,870 members they are reporting now.

[NAE NOOKIE]

If Scotland returns 15 it would be a miracle.

A few weeks ago that would have been an accurate statement. But the unusual state of affairs we have now where the losers increase their membership by 36,000 to bring it to over 60,000 in a small country like this has to indicate some change.

Admittedly in order to get to 15 seats there would have to be some pretty spectacular swings to the SNP .... Whatever happens this next general election is going to be worth staying up all night to watch.

[NAE NOOKIE]

All that energy ad to go somewhere! Shame it looks like it will all go to a party with a Nationalist ideology.

I take it you are expressing your opposition to a separate Scotland here and not alluding to any other form of nationalism where midnight torchlight parades are the go to form of campaigning?

[Phil D. Rolls]

All that energy ad to go somewhere! Shame it looks like it will all go to a party with a Nationalist ideology.

Go the whole hog and call them "a nationalist party that believes in socialism", you know you want to.

[Beefster]

Go the whole hog and call them "a nationalist party that believes in socialism", you know you want to.

They don't though, do they?

[Phil D. Rolls]

They don't though, do they?

No, I actually see them as a right of centre party.

[Beefster]

No, I actually see them as a right of centre party.

Agreed. I think their record in government backs that up too.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Agreed. I think their record in government backs that up too.

Quite prescriptive, on health for example, lots of telling people what's good for them. Then there's the matter of setting up a national police force. Of course, these traits aren't exclusive to the right.

[da-robster]

For those who might be interested, this is the vote for the various Edinburgh westminster constituencies in the referendum:



East Yes 27,500 No 30,6632
North & Leith Yes 28,813 No 43,253
South Yes 20,340 No 38,298
South West Yes 24,659 No 39,509
West Yes 22,615 No 42,946

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Quite prescriptive, on health for example, lots of telling people what's good for them. Then there's the matter of setting up a national police force. Of course, these traits aren't exclusive to the right.

I would have said that's very much a left wing trait...?

I think ultimately, and its been a huge secret of their success, the SNP are both.

Their traditional north east and Perthshire heartlands have often been won at the expense of the conservatives. But there is no doubt they are in theory a left of centre party, and Labour are starting tog feel this more and more as they are outflanked on their left.

Ultimately, the SNP strategists are just very clever and very pragmatic.

Interesting to see if they can maintain the 'all things to all people' under Sturgeon, the way they did under Salmond.

[bawheid]

A few weeks ago that would have been an accurate statement. But the unusual state of affairs we have now where the losers increase their membership by 36,000 to bring it to over 60,000 in a small country like this has to indicate some change.

Admittedly in order to get to 15 seats there would have to be some pretty spectacular swings to the SNP .... Whatever happens this next general election is going to be worth staying up all night to watch.

Absolutely.

I think the significant thing about the membership increase is that it'll allow the SNP to 'mobilise' at next year's GE like the Yes campaign did before the referendum. Against a backdrop of perceived broken promises, miraculous oil discoveries and Labour lies on whether the NHS needs saving or not, this mobilisation could be significant in making sure as many of the 45% (and maybe more) vote SNP as possible. We could see some huge swings to yellow right across Scotland.

Will Labour be able to mobilise in this way? The Better Together campaign wasn't that good really.

Interesting times.

[Moulin Yarns]

For those who might be interested, this is the vote for the various Edinburgh westminster constituencies in the referendum:



East Yes 27,500 No 30,6632
North & Leith Yes 28,813 No 43,253
South Yes 20,340 No 38,298
South West Yes 24,659 No 39,509
West Yes 22,615 No 42,946



Where did you find that?
I'm looking for the one for my area.

[Moulin Yarns]

I wonder if there will be another referendum??? :greengrin

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/ukip-donor-calls-for-english-referendum-1-3553079

[Future17]

Where did you find that?
I'm looking for the one for my area.

Which area?

[Peevemor]

No, I actually see them as a right of centre party.


Agreed. I think their record in government backs that up too.

The SNP activists I know are all pretty left wing and are generally among the first to roll up their sleeves and do stuff for good causes and defend the under privileged. As many people predict, I think that an iScotland would be the beginning of the end for the SNP. Either that or they'd take the place of one of the traditional parties (who'd have to reform in any case).

[over the line]

I wonder if there will be another referendum??? :greengrin

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/ukip-donor-calls-for-english-referendum-1-3553079

Surely that's a suicide note from UKIP isn't it? If they eject Scotland, NI and Wales from the United Kingdom, then there will be no United Kingdom and therefore............ no UKIP! What a great idea! Not sure they have thought it through? :D

[ronaldo7]

http://nationalcollective.com/2014/09/25/oh-scottish-labour-what-have-you-done/

Let's hope so Miriam.:aok:

[Stranraer]

In my view the SNP are a centre-left party. Their nationalism defines them although there may be elements of socialistic ideology. Better off with a true socialist party like the SSP anyway - YES TO A REPUBLIC:wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Surely that's a suicide note from UKIP isn't it? If they eject Scotland, NI and Wales from the United Kingdom, then there will be no United Kingdom and therefore............ no UKIP! What a great idea! Not sure they have thought it through? :D

It seems the irony is lost on UKIP in this.

[Moulin Yarns]

Which area?

North Perthshire

[Chibs]

Heseltine on hardtalk comparing Salmond with Le Pen.

[Phil D. Rolls]

http://nationalcollective.com/2014/09/25/oh-scottish-labour-what-have-you-done/

Let's hope so Miriam.:aok:


Never was this more glaringly obvious than in the run up to the referendum. Scottish Labour’s role was almost entirely focused around a market liberal agenda for the preservation of a normative framework, unfettered Neoliberalism.

What you talkin bout Willis?

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/police-probe-better-together-postal-vote-access-1-3553119



'the concerns after Scottish conservative leader Ruth Davidson said 45 minutes after the polls closed last Thursday that the campaign had been "incredibly encouraged" by the "sample opening" of the postal ballot that she said had taken place over the previous few weeks'



how bizarre, having a wee peek to see how people were voting :rolleyes: the right thing to do is have another referendum :greengrin

[Future17]

North Perthshire

Perth and Kinross organised their count by council ward, but it doesn't look like they're going to make them public.

The verification totals are available at the link below, but no count tallies.

http://www.pkc.gov.uk/Referendum

[Future17]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/police-probe-better-together-postal-vote-access-1-3553119



'the concerns after Scottish conservative leader Ruth Davidson said 45 minutes after the polls closed last Thursday that the campaign had been "incredibly encouraged" by the "sample opening" of the postal ballot that she said had taken place over the previous few weeks'



how bizarre, having a wee peek to see how people were voting :rolleyes: the right thing to do is have another referendum :greengrin

Aye, an apparently nationally coordinated and flagrant breach of the law by one of our major parties.

Raises several issues and at least 32 people are likely to be in trouble...

[NAE NOOKIE]

Heseltine on hardtalk comparing Salmond with Le Pen.

Yes .... I watched that part of the interview open mouthed. The discussion had gone towards UKIPs possible affect on the Tory vote in 2015 and Heseltine pointed towards an increasing rise of the 'hard right' on the continent, he cited Le Pen in France and Salmond in Scotland.

I expect that sort of pish from the likes of Heseltine, but what enraged me was the fact that the interviewer made no attempt to correct Heseltine for lumping Alex Salmond in with outright fascists like Jean Marie Le Pen and his ilk. He instead continued the conversation as if what Heseltine had said was correct.

The impression given to viewers was therefore this:

Alex Salmond is a Fascist. The SNP is an extreme right wing party. The folk who are members of, or vote for, the SNP are of extreme right wing views.

And the BBC get upset when folk question their impartiality.

[Moulin Yarns]

Perth and Kinross organised their count by council ward, but it doesn't look like they're going to make them public.

The verification totals are available at the link below, but no count tallies.

http://www.pkc.gov.uk/Referendum


Cheers Future.

I'm now wondering who the 10 people who didn't vote at my ballot box were? I know 8 people who moved house, but probably had postal votes if they hadn't registered elsewhere in time.

[allmodcons]

Yes .... I watched that part of the interview open mouthed. The discussion had gone towards UKIPs possible affect on the Tory vote in 2015 and Heseltine pointed towards an increasing rise of the 'hard right' on the continent, he cited Le Pen in France and Salmond in Scotland.

I expect that sort of pish from the likes of Heseltine, but what enraged me was the fact that the interviewer made no attempt to correct Heseltine for lumping Alex Salmond in with outright fascists like Jean Marie Le Pen and his ilk. He instead continued the conversation as if what Heseltine had said was correct.

The impression given to viewers was therefore this:

Alex Salmond is a Fascist. The SNP is an extreme right wing party. The folk who are members of, or vote for, the SNP are of extreme right wing views.

And the BBC get upset when folk question their impartiality.

Cancel your TV licence, that is what I have done.

[steakbake]

Cancel your TV licence, that is what I have done.

As have I - not because I am an SNP voter - which I'm not. But I think the coverage of the referendum was little short of disgraceful.

[ronaldo7]

And so it begins.

13551

[JeMeSouviens]

Problem there is ImAnMP's wafer thin majority is over the Libs isn't it? Can't see them winning anywhere? Hope arch ConDem Danny Alexander loses his seat. :-)

[Sir David Gray]

For those who might be interested, this is the vote for the various Edinburgh westminster constituencies in the referendum:



East Yes 27,500 No 30,6632
North & Leith Yes 28,813 No 43,253
South Yes 20,340 No 38,298
South West Yes 24,659 No 39,509
West Yes 22,615 No 42,946



14 people in my council area (Falkirk) voted for both options. :faf:

My Scottish Parliament constituency voted pretty much in line with the national average;

YES - 45.4%
NO - 54.6%

[RyeSloan]

Aye, an apparently nationally coordinated and flagrant breach of the law by one of our major parties. Raises several issues and at least 32 people are likely to be in trouble...

Hmm interesting...I doubt though that if it did happen it was only one party getting such privileged access.

This quote also makes no sense to me:

"Officials accepted that while staff are required by law to keep ballot papers face down there may be occasions when the face of the paper is visible"

Not only contradictory but nonsensical in relation to postal votes being opened prior to voting day...

Maybe I misread the article but it just seemed confused and conflicted in what it was saying.

[Future17]

Hmm interesting...I doubt though that if it did happen it was only one party getting such privileged access.

This quote also makes no sense to me:

"Officials accepted that while staff are required by law to keep ballot papers face down there may be occasions when the face of the paper is visible"

Not only contradictory but nonsensical in relation to postal votes being opened prior to voting day...

Maybe I misread the article but it just seemed confused and conflicted in what it was saying.

Ballot papers are opened in sessions from about 2 days after issue, right up until polling day. There is an average of over 20,000 postal ballots per counting area, so it's necessary to spread out the opening sessions.

During the process, ballot papers are extracted from their envelopes and placed in a ballot box. The aim is to keep them face down, but considering you don't know how they have been placed in the envelope, that is simply not always possible.

The reasons postal ballot agents (who represent the parties/campaign groups) are present is to ensure that the process is conducted appropriately; one of those reasons includes ensuring the Counting Officer's staff do not do the very thing the Tories have allegedly been doing.

Whilst the offence in questions may well have been committed by other parties/campaign groups in relation to the referendum or prior electoral events, it is the Tories who have apparently been caught. In that regard, the evidence at this point suggests they knowingly, wilfully and deliberately breached the law and did so with the intent to gain a political/campaign advantage.

To let this slide would be to give tacit acceptance to the practice of which the Tories are accused and, by extension, destroy the concept of the secret ballot and prohibition of exit polls.

[GreenLake]

Your "new normal" life in pictures (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-26/your-new-normal-life-pictures)

[RyeSloan]

Ballot papers are opened in sessions from about 2 days after issue, right up until polling day. There is an average of over 20,000 postal ballots per counting area, so it's necessary to spread out the opening sessions. During the process, ballot papers are extracted from their envelopes and placed in a ballot box. The aim is to keep them face down, but considering you don't know how they have been placed in the envelope, that is simply not always possible. The reasons postal ballot agents (who represent the parties/campaign groups) are present is to ensure that the process is conducted appropriately; one of those reasons includes ensuring the Counting Officer's staff do not do the very thing the Tories have allegedly been doing. Whilst the offence in questions may well have been committed by other parties/campaign groups in relation to the referendum or prior electoral events, it is the Tories who have apparently been caught. In that regard, the evidence at this point suggests they knowingly, wilfully and deliberately breached the law and did so with the intent to gain a political/campaign advantage. To let this slide would be to give tacit acceptance to the practice of which the Tories are accused and, by extension, destroy the concept of the secret ballot and prohibition of exit polls.

Very informative...that makes sense of the article now. Much appreciated.

[Moulin Yarns]

And so it begins.

13551


Problem there is ImAnMP's wafer thin majority is over the Libs isn't it? Can't see them winning anywhere? Hope arch ConDem Danny Alexander loses his seat. :-)

If we look at the MPs lead over the SNP then the top target is Gordon Banks, Labour, Ochil and South Perthshire with 5,187 majority.

At the other end of the scale Gordon Brown, Labour, Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath has a majority over SNP of 23,009.

Ian Murray has a lead of 11,840 over SNP and Danny Alexander is ahead by 10,369.

The dream of a large SNP presence at Westminster is just that, a dream.

[Judas Iscariot]

Well, just over a week since the referendum and we're back at war...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/26/isis-iraq-uk-air-strikes-commons-vote-david-cameron

Strange that this was held off until now eh?

:rolleyes:

[snooky]

If we look at the MPs lead over the SNP then the top target is Gordon Banks, Labour, Ochil and South Perthshire with 5,187 majority.

At the other end of the scale Gordon Brown, Labour, Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath has a majority over SNP of 23,009.

Ian Murray has a lead of 11,840 over SNP and Danny Alexander is ahead by 10,369.

The dream of a large SNP presence at Westminster is just that, a dream.

Like Martin Luther King's one? :wink:

[snooky]

Well, just over a week since the referendum and we're back at war...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/26/isis-iraq-uk-air-strikes-commons-vote-david-cameron

Strange that this was held off until now eh?

:rolleyes:



And this ....

BBC 22 August 2014
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28894505
BBC 24 Sept 2014
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29342142

[Moulin Yarns]

If we look at the MPs lead over the SNP then the top target is Gordon Banks, Labour, Ochil and South Perthshire with 5,187 majority.

At the other end of the scale Gordon Brown, Labour, Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath has a majority over SNP of 23,009.

Ian Murray has a lead of 11,840 over SNP and Danny Alexander is ahead by 10,369.

The dream of a large SNP presence at Westminster is just that, a dream.


Here are the top ten targets for the SNP with the lead needed to be overturned.

Gordon Banks, Labour, 5187
Alan Reid, Lib/dem, 5729
John Thurso, Lib/dem, 6391
Malcolm Bruce, Lib/dem, 6748
Jim McGovern, Labour, 7278
Eric Joyce, Labour, 7843
Frank Dorran, Labour, 8361
Sheila Gilmour, Labour, 9181
Ann McKechin, Lib/dem, 9651
Katy Clark, Labour, 9895

[Judas Iscariot]

And this ....

BBC 22 August 2014
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28894505
BBC 24 Sept 2014
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29342142

Would say unbelievable but sadly so many people did & continue to believe their lies

[snooky]

Would say unbelievable but sadly so many people did & continue to believe their lies
:agree:

:saltireflag :fishin: :a bite: :idiot:

[RyeSloan]

Would say unbelievable but sadly so many people did & continue to believe their lies

Maybe I'm blind but can you point out the lies in those links?

I also see that the biased BBC managed to publish a full article on the secret Clare field in August.... http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23681061

No doubt oil would have been a boon for an independent Scotland but at the same time it was no panacea as these Scottish government figures show: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2014/03/7888

[snooky]

Maybe I'm blind but can you point out the lies in those links?

I also see that the biased BBC managed to publish a full article on the secret Clare field in August.... http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23681061

No doubt oil would have been a boon for an independent Scotland but at the same time it was no panacea as these Scottish government figures show: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2014/03/7888

August 2013 :whistle:

[One Day Soon]

And this ....

BBC 22 August 2014
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28894505
BBC 24 Sept 2014
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29342142


So Heriot-Watt University researchers have also been part of the grand international conspiracy to do Scotland down by deliberately holding back publication of their research, is that it?

[snooky]

So Heriot-Watt University researchers have also been part of the grand international conspiracy to do Scotland down by deliberately holding back publication of their research, is that it?

I thought it was obvious that the point is the BBC's selective reporting of the facts and the timing of them.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I thought it was obvious that the point is the BBC's selective reporting of the facts and the timing of them.

Not entirely convinced about the BBC censoring stuff. Surely the Yes press office could have brought this into play?

[RyeSloan]

August 2013 :whistle:

Ha so or was...imagine that...the secret field discussed so long ago!

I suppose we could find something from 2001 when approval for the ongoing production and exploration of Clare was given (would appear the field has been known about since 1978)

Or was the secret field not the Clare field at all and is still under wraps? September is almost over so all those derigged workers must be heading back to the secret zone soon will they not?

[RyeSloan]

[QUOTE="snooky;4183903"] I thought it was obvious that the point is the BBC's selective reporting of the facts and the timing of them.[/QUOTE

You mean the research announced by HW on, wait for it, 25th September!!

So a bit like the list of lies from your previous links...you're seeing something that's not really there.

As for the research itself...so what? The progression from the lab to commercial use will probably take a decade, if it's even scalable at all..to think there is some dark forces at play deliberately suppressing this type of news is rather bizzare.

[OsloHibs]

100000 new affordable homes for England available at 20 percent lower than market price to the under 40s , and not one in Scotland.. Cheers David.

[CropleyWasGod]

100000 new affordable homes for England available at 20 percent lower than market price to the under 40s , and not one in Scotland.. Cheers David.

Why would there be?

That's a devolved issue. :wink:

[steakbake]

Labour see Cameron's 100,000 and raise it to 200,000...

Nice strategy - see what Cameron bids then double it.

What the **** do these parties think this is? Deal or No Deal?

[Beefster]

100000 new affordable homes for England available at 20 percent lower than market price to the under 40s , and not one in Scotland.. Cheers David.

Some folk just aren't grasping this devolution malarkey.

More relevant though, has Cameron discounted houses in Norway?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Some folk just aren't grasping this devolution malarkey.

More relevant though, has Cameron discounted houses in Norway?

Houses are free in Norway.

[OsloHibs]

Some folk just aren't grasping this devolution malarkey.

More relevant though, has Cameron discounted houses in Norway?

There's no housing problem in Norway. Or food banks. Or social deprivation. Or an unfair class system. Or trident. We do have lots of oil though. And expensive alcohol. And snow in winter.

[Judas Iscariot]

There's no housing problem in Norway. Or food banks. Or social deprivation. Or an unfair class system. Or trident. We do have lots of oil though. And expensive alcohol. And snow in winter.

Ahhhh but do you have a load of clowns who you'd never elect or choose to be in charge, telling you what you can and can't do and deciding on how much money you get to spend from the money you make?!

Don't be too jel of us "Scottish" folk now please

[pedroorange1875]

There's no housing problem in Norway. Or food banks. Or social deprivation. Or an unfair class system. Or trident. We do have lots of oil though. And expensive alcohol. And snow in winter.

Not sure that was the case for about 30 years after they voted for Independance, snow etc accepted ;-)

[snooky]

There's no housing problem in Norway. Or food banks. Or social deprivation. Or an unfair class system. Or trident. We do have lots of oil though. And expensive alcohol. And snow in winter.

And yet we remain puzzled why Scotland voted No? :drunk:

:wink:

[Scottie]

100000 new affordable homes for England available at 20 percent lower than market price to the under 40s , and not one in Scotland.. Cheers David.

Aren't you glad that 55% of the Scottish residents chose to stay within the UK to help fund the glorious Westminster Parliment. No wonder they were so desperate for us to stay in their gang. :rolleyes:

[Swedish hibee]

Aren't you glad that 55% of the Scottish residents chose to stay within the UK to help fund the glorious Westminster Parliment. No wonder they were so desperate for us to stay in their gang. :rolleyes:

I'm still gobsmacked Scotland voted no.
Scotland has more money than Sweden and I find it truly staggering that Scots didn't think they could go alone.

Words fail me :furious:

[over the line]

I'm still gobsmacked Scotland voted no.
Scotland has more money than Sweden and I find it truly staggering that Scots didn't think they could go alone.

Words fail me :furious:

Well they didn't necessarily think it couldn't go it alone, just didn't want to go it alone. 62% of the electorate didn't vote for independence, so they must be fairly happy with the way it is.

[GreenLake]

We need more people like Carmen Segarra - a Joan of Arc in this corrupt financial world.

http://www.propublica.org/article/carmen-segarras-secret-recordings-from-inside-new-york-fed

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm still gobsmacked Scotland voted no.
Scotland has more money than Sweden and I find it truly staggering that Scots didn't think they could go alone.

Words fail me :furious:


:agree:

http://athousandflowers.net/2014/09/26/8-things-weve-learned-since-the-no-vote/

Told you so!

[RyeSloan]

There's no housing problem in Norway. Or food banks. Or social deprivation. Or an unfair class system. Or trident. We do have lots of oil though. And expensive alcohol. And snow in winter.

Ahh the old Scandinavia is perfect routine.

Firstly Scotland is not Scandinavia so we should stop comparing the two as if they are identical.

Secondly to state a whole nation does not have social deprivation is nonsense as this link would suggest: http://www.newsinenglish.no/2014/06/26/child-poverty-on-the-rise-in-norway/

Thirdly you may not have a historical class system like the UK but it depends how you define class...there is clear evidence of immigrants in Scandinavia being treated as a different class to the existing population and they suffer on a number of measures.

Don't get me wrong I understand that in many ways the Scandinavian countries are ranked above the UK but let's not pretend these countries do not suffer some of the same issues and challenges around poverty, depravation and working poor as well as how to manage the effect of a growing dependence on the welfare state.

[Mikey09]

I'm still gobsmacked Scotland voted no.
Scotland has more money than Sweden and I find it truly staggering that Scots didn't think they could go alone.

Words fail me :furious:


Have you no heard?? We're Better Together.... :faf::faf::faf::faf::faf::faf::faf::faf:

[cabbageandribs1875]

according to an e-mail i got from SNP HQ this morning, over 50,000 have applied for membership in the last 12 days :thumbsup:

[Moulin Yarns]

This is so worth watching.

*warning* sweary word content :greengrin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0276z6t/frankie-boyles-referendum-autopsy

[allmodcons]

according to an e-mail i got from SNP HQ this morning, over 50,000 have applied for membership in the last 12 days :thumbsup:


This is really bad news for the SNP.
All of these new members are going to give the SNP leadership a real headache and a horrible set of problems to deal with.
This, of course, is BBCspeak (i.e. - bollocks).
I am loving the BBC spin on, what is, without any doubt, a really good news story for the SNP.

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting analysis of next year's possibilities.

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/09/29/ukip-snp-and-risks-parliamentary-paralysis/

[lucky]

Blair Jenkins now saying BBC were not biased. Another miff put to bed

[DaveF]

Blair Jenkins now saying BBC were not biased. Another miff put to bed

Oh well. At least the NUJ can relax now and not fear further intimidation from some Labour MP's

"The NUJ also said it had experienced a number of Labour MPs accusing BBC journalists of political bias against the pro-Union Better Together campaign"

[Stranraer]

according to an e-mail i got from SNP HQ this morning, over 50,000 have applied for membership in the last 12 days :thumbsup:

it's excellent news in a way but I want a Yes alliance. The great thing about the YES campaign was disagreeing with SNP figures on things like the monarchy... but if it means a loss of Labour MP's next year :greengrin

[The Harp Awakes]

according to an e-mail i got from SNP HQ this morning, over 50,000 have applied for membership in the last 12 days :thumbsup:

A quite incredible statistic really, particularly when you consider that the SNP have been in Government for 7 years and typically Governments become less popular the longer they are in power.

Clearly this massive increase in membership gives the SNP a mandate to continue their pursuit of Scottish independence and that will become clear when Nicola Sturgeon becomes leader. Whether that is through another referendum or a steady creep towards independence through devo max or home rule remains to be seen.

There may have been a no vote on 18 September but all roads lead to independence now I think. It's just a question of how soon.

[ronaldo7]

Gordon Brown now wants us to sign a petition on more powers. I thought the vow was a done deal. The powers he alluded to were as near Federalism or Home rule as you could get.

As the Blue and Red Tories fight it out in Westminster, we go to war, and look forward to some blistering cuts coming our way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29432379

[The_Exile]

Gordon Brown now wants us to sign a petition on more powers. I thought the vow was a done deal. The powers he alluded to were as near Federalism or Home rule as you could get.

As the Blue and Red Tories fight it out in Westminster, we go to war, and look forward to some blistering cuts coming our way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29432379

Exactly, he was the one that ****ing promised the parliament new powers!!!!! Now he's got a petition on the go. Farce.

[DaveF]

Gordon Brown now wants us to sign a petition on more powers. I thought the vow was a done deal. The powers he alluded to were as near Federalism or Home rule as you could get.

As the Blue and Red Tories fight it out in Westminster, we go to war, and look forward to some blistering cuts coming our way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29432379

Oh dear.

So Gordon promised to deliver and is still talking the talk in that article yet at the same time laying the foundations for his excuses.

"He (Brown) said it was for Lord Smith of Kelvin, appointed by the government to chair a commission on delivering powers to Scotland, to secure agreement between the parties"

[MyJo]

Gordon Brown now wants us to sign a petition on more powers. I thought the vow was a done deal. The powers he alluded to were as near Federalism or Home rule as you could get.

As the Blue and Red Tories fight it out in Westminster, we go to war, and look forward to some blistering cuts coming our way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29432379

Words fail me...........

This is what the majority of the population voted for however, so i guess we are getting what we deserve?

Further devolution with so many strings it will make them impossible to be used effectively by any scottish government along with our voice having no say over "English Matters" despite the fact we will probably still end up paying for them.

Peachy.

[Peevemor]

Words fail me...........

This is what the majority of the population voted for however, so i guess we are getting what we deserve?

Further devolution with so many strings it will make them impossible to be used effectively by any scottish government along with our voice having no say over "English Matters" despite the fact we will probably still end up paying for them.

Peachy.

The "vow" will be broken, 80 more years of oil reserves announced just after the referendum, they've removed the right to object to the fracking up of our environment, labour have now admitted that the NHS is goosed after all, etc.

They won't know what's hit them!

[MyJo]

The "vow" will be broken, 80 more years of oil reserves announced just after the referendum, they've removed the right to object to the fracking up of our environment, labour have now admitted that the NHS is goosed after all, etc.

They won't know what's hit them!

we will maybe get independence when they have finished stripping us of all our natural resources for the benefit of southern england

[degenerated]

The "vow" will be broken, 80 more years of oil reserves announced just after the referendum, they've removed the right to object to the fracking up of our environment, labour have now admitted that the NHS is goosed after all, etc.

They won't know what's hit them!
I found this interesting. The company selected to provide election services for Dundee, the one with two fire alarm evacuations and no fire, was according to this a company called Idox.
http://scotland.unitedkingdom-tenders.co.uk/35503_The_Purchasers_are_looking_to_procure_the_fo llowingPrinting_and_Issuing_of_Postal_Voting_Packs _2013_Dundee

As a non exec director of Idox we have conservative mp Peter Lilley, who also happens to be on the board of tethys petroleum - a company with more than a passing interest in fracking.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/30/624543e0608bc4eeff52c136c942dcca.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/30/b66267a99678e45d006901ce638a633c.jpg

Oh what a tangled web we weave.

[Hibrandenburg]

Gordon Brown now wants us to sign a petition on more powers. I thought the vow was a done deal. The powers he alluded to were as near Federalism or Home rule as you could get.

As the Blue and Red Tories fight it out in Westminster, we go to war, and look forward to some blistering cuts coming our way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29432379

Never saw that coming :rolleyes:

[Future17]

I found this interesting. The company selected to provide election services for Dundee, the one with two fire alarm evacuations and no fire, was according to this a company called Idox.
http://scotland.unitedkingdom-tenders.co.uk/35503_The_Purchasers_are_looking_to_procure_the_fo llowingPrinting_and_Issuing_of_Postal_Voting_Packs _2013_Dundee

As a non exec director of Idox we have conservative mp Peter Lilley, who also happens to be on the board of tethys petroleum - a company with more than a passing interest in fracking.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/30/624543e0608bc4eeff52c136c942dcca.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/30/b66267a99678e45d006901ce638a633c.jpg

Oh what a tangled web we weave.

Although Idox do provide some services to Dundee (and others) in relation to elections, those services relate to software for voter registration and the printing of certain materials, like ballot papers.

They have absolutely nothing to do with events which transpired at the counting of votes.

[JimBHibees]

Never saw that coming :rolleyes:

Yep incredible. The more things change the more they stay the same. Anyone who actually believed the 'vow' in the first place really shouldnt be allowed out alone.

[steakbake]

Never saw that coming :rolleyes:

...yet there are shrieks of foul play when it's pointed out that some (though certainly not all) No voters have been conned.

Of course they've been conned.

As for Gordon Brown's new plan... complete bull****.

[Hibrandenburg]

...yet there are shrieks of foul play when it's pointed out that some (though certainly not all) No voters have been conned.

Of course they've been conned.

As for Gordon Brown's new plan... complete bull****.

Yepp! Also it's interesting to see that none of the more vocal NO supporters amongst us have become rather quiet now that it's come out in the wash that they've (we've) been conned.

[JimBHibees]

Yepp! Also it's interesting to see that none of the more vocal NO supporters amongst us have become rather quiet now that it's come out in the wash that they've (we've) been conned.

I honestly don't think they care if we were conned or not the result was all that mattered. All about self preservation.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think everybody that contributed to this thread should do this quiz, and tell us the results.

http://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz

To kick off, I am 86% SNP 80% Labour (spit) 80% Plaid Cymru, 76% Green, 63% Lib Dem :rolleyes: 39% Conservative, 28% UKIP and 27% BNP

[allmodcons]

Yepp! Also it's interesting to see that none of the more vocal NO supporters amongst us have become rather quiet now that it's come out in the wash that they've (we've) been conned.

To be fair I think most of the 'No' supporters who have posted on here over the last year or so were all well entrenched. That is to say, 'the Vow' would not have made any difference to the way in which they voted.

IMO those who were persuaded to vote 'No' by the front page splash in the Daily Record only days before the vote have every right to feel embarrassed rather than angry. Embarrassed to have believed anything presented to them by an unholy alliance of politicians in a complete joke of a newspaper.

It beggars belief that Gordon Brown (a 'supposed' man of intellect) has the audacity to ask that we sign a petition stating that he and his colleagues in Better Together keep a promise they made!

That said, I think the Labour Party's primary concern is always what is best for the Labour Party. As a case in point, I recall Margaret Curran making a speech earlier this year where she said Scottish Independence would lead to the break up of her beloved Labour Party!!

Better Together may have won the referendum vote but, god willing, there will be a day of reckoning for the Labour Party in Scotland yet.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/27/labour-in-scotland-dying-does-anyone-care

[The Harp Awakes]

I think everybody that contributed to this thread should do this quiz, and tell us the results.

http://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz

To kick off, I am 86% SNP 80% Labour (spit) 80% Plaid Cymru, 76% Green, 63% Lib Dem :rolleyes: 39% Conservative, 28% UKIP and 27% BNP

I'm 72% snp, 72% green, 72% Plaid Cymru, 68% Labour (yuk!), 64% BNP (yikes!) 58% UKIP (even more yikes!), 54% LibDem (who?) and 33% Tory (yehaa!).

[allmodcons]

I think everybody that contributed to this thread should do this quiz, and tell us the results.

http://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz

To kick off, I am 86% SNP 80% Labour (spit) 80% Plaid Cymru, 76% Green, 63% Lib Dem :rolleyes: 39% Conservative, 28% UKIP and 27% BNP


I scored 91% Green, 88% SNP, 80% Plaid Cymru, 77% Lib Dem, 31% BNP, 30% Conservative, 19% UKIP and 2% Labour :greengrin.

[over the line]

I think everybody that contributed to this thread should do this quiz, and tell us the results.

http://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz

To kick off, I am 86% SNP 80% Labour (spit) 80% Plaid Cymru, 76% Green, 63% Lib Dem :rolleyes: 39% Conservative, 28% UKIP and 27% BNP

89% Labour, 83% SNP , 80% lib/dem, 74% Con, 71% Gn & PC,
70% BNP (bit worrying I have to say) and 56% UKIP.

By the looks of my results, I think it is suggesting nearly all the parties are very similar. They must all agree on quite a lot based on these figures.

Not sure how it can say I am 71% Green and 70% BNP (which I am definitely not!), how is that possible? Maybe they should consider an amalgamation, if they are that similar? (imagine that!!! ;):) ).

[NAE NOOKIE]

SNP 85%, Plaid Cymru 84%, Green 80%, Labour 79%, Lib Dems 70%, BNP 36%, Conservatives 23%, UKIP 13%

Given that according to that I agree with the BNP twice as much as UKIP they must be an utter shower of fascist *******s.

[Sergio sledge]

Liberal Democrats 76%, SNP 59%, Plaid Cymru 58%, Labour 58%, UKIP 37%, Conservatives 37%, Green 23%, BNP 21%.

Broadly what I expected I guess. I'm a bit surprised that the Greens are so low, but I suppose that is down to my support for nuclear power. Glad the BNP are down the bottom unlike some of you other fascists..... :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Yep incredible. The more things change the more they stay the same. Anyone who actually believed the 'vow' in the first place really shouldnt be allowed out alone.

People believed what they wanted to believe. I was a yes voter and saw that it was a panicked announcement after the poll put yes campaign ahead. Brown never had the authority to deliver what he promised, he was a patsy for the no campaign, I know it and I suspect he does.

[degenerated]

Cameron's speech today was a belter 😁

http://youtu.be/0YBumQHPAeU

[johnbc70]

Yepp! Also it's interesting to see that none of the more vocal NO supporters amongst us have become rather quiet now that it's come out in the wash that they've (we've) been conned.

Or just maybe they are just getting on with their life?

[Hibrandenburg]

Or just maybe they are just getting on with their life?

And confirming that what those smug gits in Westminster already know, it's acceptable to lie to and con the electorate because they're all mugs and they'll do **** all about it anyway.

[johnbc70]

And confirming that what those smug gits in Westminster already know, it's acceptable to lie to and con the electorate because they're all mugs and they'll do **** all about it anyway.

They will do their talking in the polling booth, like they did on the 18th September. These 'mugs' you refer to (over 2 million) looked like they did do something about the outcome of the referendum, unlike some of the cities where the Yes came out on top, 1 in 4 could not even be bothered voting. Maybe if some of the Yes voters 'did something about it' on the 18th it would be a different result?

[One Day Soon]

And confirming that what those smug gits in Westminster already know, it's acceptable to lie to and con the electorate because they're all mugs and they'll do **** all about it anyway.


McGlashan of the Clan McGlashan

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm actually sceptical about how many people did actually change their minds after reading the vow. Certainly couldn't see it affecting the overall decision.

On the Brown issue, he's playing party politics, that's all. I'm happy to let the Smith process continue for the time being, and see where that gets us. If that turns out to be a whitewash, then there is a case for anger, but it's only been 2 weeks. :cb

[degenerated]

McGlashan of the Clan McGlashan
Always been a role model for me

http://youtu.be/K5cUxawA_6w

[Peevemor]

I think everybody that contributed to this thread should do this quiz, and tell us the results.

http://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz

To kick off, I am 86% SNP 80% Labour (spit) 80% Plaid Cymru, 76% Green, 63% Lib Dem :rolleyes: 39% Conservative, 28% UKIP and 27% BNP

Apparently I'm Green 89% (Hi-Bees ya bas!), SNP 87, Plaid Cymru 87, Labour 82, Lib Dem 80 & Tory 18.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Is it true the SNP backed the Nazis in ww2?

[allmodcons]

They will do their talking in the polling booth, like they did on the 18th September. These 'mugs' you refer to (over 2 million) looked like they did do something about the outcome of the referendum, unlike some of the cities where the Yes came out on top, 1 in 4 could not even be bothered voting. Maybe if some of the Yes voters 'did something about it' on the 18th it would be a different result?

My understanding was that anybody who couldn't be bothered to vote was to be classed as a 'No' voter?

I'm certain one of your Unionist allies on these boards has already suggested that 62% didn't want change thereby classing all those who "could not be bothered" as supporters of the Union.

Which is it?

[allmodcons]

Is it true the SNP backed the Nazis in ww2?

Was Oswald Mosley a member of the SNP?

[Peevemor]

Is it true the SNP backed the Nazis in ww2?

There were some nationalists who thought a Scottish state as part of a German empire would be better than being governed by the English. There were some in Brittany who had similar ideas. Obviously the extent of the Nazi atrocities wasn't known.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-to-nazi-plan-1-1103305

[Hibrandenburg]

Is it true the SNP backed the Nazis in ww2?

:rolleyes:

[RIP]

Glad the conspiracy theories are expring - they were embarassing. Every minute spent prattling on about that ***** is a minute wasted planning next steps.

Swinney wants it all put to sleep - maybe time for a public announcement?

[lord bunberry]

Or just maybe they are just getting on with their life?

I'm also getting on with my life, but do you agree that Brown lied to get the no vote across the line? Imo he's a traitor to us all no matter what way you voted.

[Rasta_Hibs]

There were some nationalists who thought a Scottish state as part of a German empire would be better than being governed by the English. There were some in Brittany who had similar ideas. Obviously the extent of the Nazi atrocities wasn't known.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/mi5-file-links-former-snp-leader-to-nazi-plan-1-1103305



Thanks for the reply! I was sure that was the case just didn't see it mentioned on here.

[johnbc70]

My understanding was that anybody who couldn't be bothered to vote was to be classed as a 'No' voter?

I'm certain one of your Unionist allies on these boards has already suggested that 62% didn't want change thereby classing all those who "could not be bothered" as supporters of the Union.

Which is it?

So I have to agree with everything every No voter says now...?!

I would suggest there were infact some Yes voters that in the words of the post I replied to 'did **** all about it' on the 18th. Why was turnout so low in the 2 cities that voted Yes? Again in the context of the post that I was replying to then I would suggest the No voters did do 'something' on the 18th September so the complete opposite of what was being suggested, they came out and voiced their considerable view that Scotland should not be an independent country and over 2 million of them did, not the actions of a group of people who will do '****' all about things surely?

[#FromTheCapital]

The no vote was always going to win and this was reflected in the opinion polls throughout, bar one that put yes only slightly in the lead. The vow maybe changed a few people's minds but not enough to affect the overall outcome. Either way the changes will happen in time. Time to move on and stop jumping on any small bit of 'ammo' that comes along in the meantime.

[johnbc70]

I'm also getting on with my life, but do you agree that Brown lied to get the no vote across the line? Imo he's a traitor to us all no matter what way you voted.

Surely it is too early to say he lied, maybe he was fooled and only time will tell, but I do not believe he deliberately lied to anyone. It has been 2 weeks, these things do take time. I think the next 12 months will be interesting and as a No voter I will be watching to see what happens. Or maybe I will just do '****' all about it.

[Peevemor]

Thanks for the reply! I was sure that was the case just didn't see it mentioned on here.

Although it's interesting, it's not at all relevant to the present day SNP.

I even heard a rumour that the Labour party used to be socialist.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Surely it is too early to say he lied, maybe he was fooled and only time will tell, but I do not believe he deliberately lied to anyone. It has been 2 weeks, these things do take time. I think the next 12 months will be interesting and as a No voter I will be watching to see what happens. Or maybe I will just do '****' all about it.

Will you do **** all about it if nothing transpires after said interesting 12 months ?

[Rasta_Hibs]

Although it's interesting, it's not at all relevant to the present day SNP.

I even heard a rumour that the Labour party used to be socialist.

I think it is as some who fought in that war are still alive. Plus it's the same ideology independence at any cost. No matter what. The same ideology that skips past this part of the snp history but will call a referendum on the anniversary of Bannockburn. It's history is anti English and to be honest I see a lot of anti English feeling from a large amount of their support today.

SNP are not left wing. Their sole reason for existing I'd to separate from England. Their plans were a joke and I'm so glad we are not right now picking up the pieces of their masterplan for independence.

I'd put a bigger majority of working people voted no! I know it will be shouted down here but almost every junky, i knew was staunch yes!! Reason mostly was to **** the English and get it up the tories!!!

[lord bunberry]

Surely it is too early to say he lied, maybe he was fooled and only time will tell, but I do not believe he deliberately lied to anyone. It has been 2 weeks, these things do take time. I think the next 12 months will be interesting and as a No voter I will be watching to see what happens. Or maybe I will just do '****' all about it.

I find it hard to believe a man of his political standing would be so naive, he knew exactly what he was doing. I also find it hard to believe that you don't share that view, you've put your case for the no campaign across quite eloquently (even though I've disagreed with almost all of it) you must at least admit to how his intervention at the last minute looks.

[lord bunberry]

I think it is as some who fought in that war are still alive. Plus it's the same ideology independence at any cost. No matter what. The same ideology that skips past this part of the snp history but will call a referendum on the anniversary of Bannockburn. It's history is anti English and to be honest I see a lot of anti English feeling from a large amount of their support today.

SNP are not left wing. Their sole reason for existing I'd to separate from England. Their plans were a joke and I'm so glad we are not right now picking up the pieces of their masterplan for independence.

I'd put a bigger majority of working people voted no! I know it will be shouted down here but almost every junky, i knew was staunch yes!! Reason mostly was to **** the English and get it up the tories!!!

Well you must move in different circles from me then as I never heard once the reason for voting yes as being anti English. I may be mistaken but i believe the majority of working people voted yes.. I'm trying to be polite but to be honest I think your talking pish

[over the line]

My understanding was that anybody who couldn't be bothered to vote was to be classed as a 'No' voter?

I'm certain one of your Unionist allies on these boards has already suggested that 62% didn't want change thereby classing all those who "could not be bothered" as supporters of the Union.

Which is it?

I was merely taking a similarly biased statistic used by one of your separatist brethren on here and turning it on its head. What's the phrase....... Lies, damn lies and statistics!

[johnbc70]

Will you do **** all about it if nothing transpires after said interesting 12 months ?

I will join the SNP and fight the fight brother! No, I will do something but hard to say what as I cannot predict what will be what in 12 months, we do not even know who the PM will be.

[Peevemor]

Well you must move in different circles from me then as I never heard once the reason for voting yes as being anti English. I may be mistaken but i believe the majority of working people voted yes.. I'm trying to be polite but to be honest I think your talking pish

I concur.

I also think Germany should be booted out the EU and heavily sanctioned because my understanding is that during the War, they were erm, German.

[johnbc70]

I find it hard to believe a man of his political standing would be so naive, he knew exactly what he was doing. I also find it hard to believe that you don't share that view, you've put your case for the no campaign across quite eloquently (even though I've disagreed with almost all of it) you must at least admit to how his intervention at the last minute looks.

His intervention could be seen as the last throw of the dice, to get the No vote over the line. What impact it had is up for debate ranging from some saying it played a significant part (then why was No pretty much always in the lead) to some who say it had little or no impact. I do not believe it made hundreds of thousands of people change their mind though.

It has been 2 weeks since the vote, it took the SNP many years to get to this stage so lets at least give it 12 months and then that will be the time to judge. Concessions will be made though, just like if it has been Yes then I do not believe for one minute everything promised (and there was a lot) would have been delivered.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I concur.

I also think Germany should be booted out the EU and heavily sanctioned because my understanding is that during the War, they were erm, German.

As I said it's an ideology independence at any cost. Back then it was in bed with the Nazis. Today it's admiring Putin and threatening to bump our national debt. Stand behind that lot all you want. I'm glad the majority seen through it.

[lord bunberry]

As I said it's an ideology independence at any cost. Back then it was in bed with the Nazis. Today it's admiring Putin and threatening to bump our national debt. Stand behind that lot all you want. I'm glad the majority seen through it.

There was never any attempt to bump the national debt, we were entitled to our share of UK assets, if we were denied them why should we also be liable to the debt?

[degenerated]

I think it is as some who fought in that war are still alive. Plus it's the same ideology independence at any cost. No matter what. The same ideology that skips past this part of the snp history but will call a referendum on the anniversary of Bannockburn. It's history is anti English and to be honest I see a lot of anti English feeling from a large amount of their support today.

SNP are not left wing. Their sole reason for existing I'd to separate from England. Their plans were a joke and I'm so glad we are not right now picking up the pieces of their masterplan for independence.

I'd put a bigger majority of working people voted no! I know it will be shouted down here but almost every junky, i knew was staunch yes!! Reason mostly was to **** the English and get it up the tories!!!
If you get shouted down its probably because your talking nonsense.

[Stax]

As I said it's an ideology independence at any cost. Back then it was in bed with the Nazis. Today it's admiring Putin and threatening to bump our national debt. Stand behind that lot all you want. I'm glad the majority seen through it.
Independence at any cost? Admiring Putin? Sorry but I must have missed the bloodshed & book burning that brought us to this point. Bumping our national debt would have been as ridiculous as saying Scotland wouldn't have kept a petro based currency such as sterling that is as much ours as any other of our neighbours. The anti English slant you're trying to put on you're posts are a load of pish as well. Your opinion poll of working people (no) and 'junkies' (yes) is just.... Odd

[Rasta_Hibs]

If you get shouted down its probably because your talking nonsense.

Well aye I know but we all have our own views. It is a fact that all the junkies in my street had yes stickers on their windows!

[degenerated]

Well aye I know but we all have our own views. It is a fact that all the junkies in my street had yes stickers on their windows!
What a ridiculous generalisation.

[Rasta_Hibs]

What a ridiculous generalisation.

Just what I observed.

[steakbake]

Not a junkie and I voted yes, not because of anti-english sentiment. Just think the people who live here should have full say on how we're run.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Not a junkie and I voted yes, not because of anti-english sentiment. Just think the people who live here should have full say on how we're run.

but want to keep the pound and have our interest rates still set by the bank of England. Or was it the euro you really wanted so we could rejoin the EU after 5 years.

[steakbake]

but want to keep the pound and have our interest rates still set by the bank of England. Or was it the euro you really wanted so we could rejoin the EU after 5 years.

Don't know why you're baiting me, man. You lot won the argument this time. I was just saying that being a nationalist or anti-English was nothing to do with it.

I suspect you've got more than a passing interest in voting no.

[The Harp Awakes]

Well aye I know but we all have our own views. It is a fact that all the junkies in my street had yes stickers on their windows!

And 15000 bigots adorning orange sashes, holding 'no thanks' banners alongside KKK banners marched through Edinburgh the weekend before the referendum.

What's yer point:rolleyes:

[Rasta_Hibs]

And 15000 bigots adorning orange sashes, holding 'no thanks' banners alongside KKK banners marched through Edinburgh the weekend before the referendum.

What's yer point:rolleyes:

Well that's it was a big jolly for some that had no work to do.

[Hibrandenburg]

The no vote was always going to win and this was reflected in the opinion polls throughout, bar one that put yes only slightly in the lead. The vow maybe changed a few people's minds but not enough to affect the over'all outcome. Either way the changes will happen in time. Time to move on and stop jumping on any small bit of 'ammo' that comes along in the meantime.

There was a poll that suggested 25% of NO voters were swayed by the vow.

By move on I read between the lines "sit down and shut up". Never.

[Beefster]

Just think the people who live here should have full say on how we're run.

How would that have worked? In what way would I have had more of a say than I do now?

[Hibrandenburg]

There was never any attempt to bump the national debt, we were entitled to our share of UK assets, if we were denied them why should we also be liable to the debt?

Forget it dude. I know so many like him that have formed a religious like opinion based on myths, lies and prejudices. The brain washing sits so deep it's like talking to a wall.

[steakbake]

How would that have worked? In what way would I have had more of a say than I do now?

I'm sure it's been argued to death in the previous however many pages - have a wee look and I'm sure it's covered, albeit presumably not to your satisfaction.

[johnbc70]

There was a poll that suggested 25% of NO voters were swayed by the vow.

By move on I read between the lines "sit down and shut up". Never.

What did the poll suggest? That 25% of people, which was over 500,000 people, either changed from Yes to No or made them made more No. Can't believe they went from Yes to No otherwise why did the polls always show No in the lead and if it made them more No well then they were No already.

[Hibrandenburg]

What did the poll suggest? That 25% of people, which was over 500,000 people, either changed from Yes to No or made them made more No. Can't believe they went from Yes to No otherwise why did the polls always show No in the lead and if it made them more No well then they were No already.


Question 6.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll


http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29443603

Sorry if the links don't work, I'm on my mobile and sometimes they're posted as links and sometimes not. If not you can copy and paste.

[#FromTheCapital]

There was a poll that suggested 25% of NO voters were swayed by the vow.

By move on I read between the lines "sit down and shut up". Never.

I find that very hard to believe, impossible in fact - but I'd be willing to look at the poll you posted. Can't just now though as my phone won't let me copy and paste.

Move on - in your case stop posting digs on hibs.net at no voters based on your blinkered views as a yes voter.... Most of us have lost a fair degree of interest in the debate now that the vote has passed. Find a more constructive way of fighting your fight.