Scottish Independence

[danhibees1875]

Have you been on holiday and a local asks if you're English, do you say no I'm British or no I'm Scottish.

I'm still not sure what the test is, but to that question I'd say that I was Scottish.

[Stairway 2 7]

Have you been on holiday and a local asks if you're English, do you say no I'm British or no I'm Scottish.

But he's not English so obviously going to correct. The question might be what if someone said are you British, I'd probably say yes I'm from Scotland

[danhibees1875]

But he's not English so obviously going to correct. The question might be what if someone said are you British, I'd probably say yes I'm from Scotland

I think it would depend on who asked me and my assumption of where the conversation was going to go. Either "Yes", "Yes, I'm from Scotland", or "Yes, I'm from Edinburgh".

[OldEast]

I'm still not sure what the test is, but to that question I'd say that I was Scottish.

Up until 2014 I always said British because my passport says so. Then the Independence debate and later the Brexit debacle exposed the huge differences in thinking across the member nations. I'm now happy and comfortable to say I'm Scottish. The idea of Britain being a UNION of nations is a joke.

[archie]

Up until 2014 I always said British because my passport says so. Then the Independence debate and later the Brexit debacle exposed the huge differences in thinking across the member nations. I'm now happy and comfortable to say I'm Scottish. The idea of Britain being a UNION of nations is a joke.
What do you mean? Britain is a unitary state.

[OldEast]

What do you mean? Britain is a unitary state.

Aye ok I thought it was obvious. We don't think the same, our values are different, our ambitions are different, our political leanings are different. A union of like minds it's not. You know what I meant, don't be petty.

[Bristolhibby]

Sturgeon set to resign.

They got her.

J

[archie]

Aye ok I thought it was obvious. We don't think the same, our values are different, our ambitions are different, our political leanings are different. A union of like minds it's not. You know what I meant, don't be petty.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[archie]

Sturgeon set to resign.

They got her.

J

Who do you think 'they' are?

[OldEast]

Sturgeon set to resign.

They got her.

J

That ******* no mark Glen Campbell will be happy.

[GreenGray]

Who do you think 'they' are?

Probably the unionist media.


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[One Day Soon]

Grassy Knoll-tastic

[Torto7]

I like the split in the SNP and would encourage further fragmentation of the party. It's never been a united consensus on what it believes in beyond Independence. I've spoken to conservatives swinging to Socialists over the years at Party conferences etc. The introduction of the culture war stuff from the Unionists down south will end up being an own goal. A new right of centre pro indy party that can avoid the Alba route will be the final nail in the Unions coffin and give Scots a clear view of what's to come post Indy. A lot of people were put of by the lack of post Indy clarity politically.
Why some folk need this when staying in the UK props up The Hard Brexit thieves in government or the other vetted dont rock the boat too much Starmer I'll never know but hey ho.

[One Day Soon]

This thread has been going for very nearly ten years. Next to nothing has changed.

[Jack]

What do you mean? Britain is a unitary state.

Britain is an island.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Britain is an island.

Great Britain is an island, Britain isn’t a thing and hasn’t been since Roman times as far as I’m aware. Britannia was England and Wales, Caledonia was Scotland and Hibernia was Ireland is my understanding, if I’m wrong please do correct me but that’s how I remember it from school [emoji2371]


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[danhibees1875]

Great Britain is an island, Britain isn’t a thing and hasn’t been since Roman times as far as I’m aware. Britannia was England and Wales, Caledonia was Scotland and Hibernia was Ireland is my understanding, if I’m wrong please do correct me but that’s how I remember it from school [emoji2371]


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Britain is what people call Great Britain though. Which in turn is just current name for this island.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

This thread has been going for very nearly ten years. Next to nothing has changed.

True. Anybody with a clue already knew the "union" was non-voluntary, without the need for it to be confirmed.

[James310]

True. Anybody with a clue already knew the "union" was non-voluntary, without the need for it to be confirmed.

Apart from that time we had that massive referendum.

[Smartie]

This thread has been going for very nearly ten years. Next to nothing has changed.

Was independence not put to bed for a generation in 2014?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Apart from that time we had that massive referendum.

That time we were granted permission to have a referendum entirely on Westminster's own terms. Many of which didn't apply to the Brexit referendum.

[James310]

That time we were granted permission to have a referendum entirely on Westminster's own terms. Many of which didn't apply to the Brexit referendum.

I think most of the terms were Alex Salmonds, the date the franchise and the question.

I think Sturgeon had way more opportunities than he ever had with Brexit, COVID, Boris Johnson, Liz Truss etc and if she had a different approach and a different personality she may well have achieved something he never. But she didn't.

[The Modfather]

This thread has been going for very nearly ten years. Next to nothing has changed.

Which is why a second referendum is needed to definitively put it to bed. Brexit is a material change, which may or may not result in a different answer. A second no vote and despite being in favour of independence, short of another game changer like Brexit, I’d not see any grounds for talking about indyref3 for for a good number of decades.

The problem I can see is it’s in unionists interests not to take the risk of a definitive second referendum. Why take the risk when they already have the status quo. As a result round and round we endlessly go as the county is split down the middle on this issue.

[Zambernardi1875]

I think most of the terms were Alex Salmonds, the date the franchise and the question.

I think Sturgeon had way more opportunities than he ever had with Brexit, COVID, Boris Johnson, Liz Truss etc and if she had a different approach and a different personality she may well have achieved something he never. But she didn't.

Just run through how independence would’ve been achieved if we had a more inspiring character in charge

[James310]

Just run through how independence would’ve been achieved if we had a more inspiring character in charge

The biggest advertisement for Independence would have been running a devolved Scotland to make a clear and positive difference for it's people. To stop dreaming of the powers Scotland might have and deliver on the powers Scotland did have. She lacked any awareness as to why people rejected Independence and never bothered to understand why they did, she was pretty much along the lines of if only people thought what I thought and believed what I believed you would agree with me. She never once spoke to the people who did not want Independence, only the people who already supported it. Someone who did the opposite of all those things may have had a different result. But we will never know, and ultimately she leaves having advanced Independence not at all. I said a while back it was further away than it ever was and was given the usual replies, but it turns out I was spot on. (It's now even further away than it was)

[The Harp Awakes]

The biggest advertisement for Independence would have been running a devolved Scotland to make a clear and positive difference for it's people. To stop dreaming of the powers Scotland might have and deliver on the powers Scotland did have. She lacked any awareness as to why people rejected Independence and never bothered to understand why they did, she was pretty much along the lines of if only people thought what I thought and believed what I believed you would agree with me. She never once spoke to the people who did not want Independence, only the people who already supported it. Someone who did the opposite of all those things may have had a different result. But we will never know, and ultimately she leaves having advanced Independence not at all. I said a while back it was further away than it ever was and was given the usual replies, but it turns out I was spot on. (It's now even further away than it was)

I've seen you writing some drivel on here but you've surpassed yourself this time. Do you genuinely believe what you write or is it all wishful thinking?

How does an increase in independence support from ~28% in early 2014 to ~52-56% earlier this year mean independence is further away? There may be movement up and down in support in the years ahead, but the general direction of travel is a growing increase in support for independence. Demographics will see to that, not the upward or downward fortunes of the SNP.

Or are you hanging your hopes on Westminster continuing to deny democracy?

[James310]

I've seen you writing some drivel on here but you've surpassed yourself this time. Do you genuinely believe what you write or is it all wishful thinking?

How does an increase in independence support from ~28% in early 2014 to ~52-56% earlier this year mean independence is further away? There may be movement up and down in support in the years ahead, but the general direction of travel is a growing increase in support for independence. Demographics will see to that, not the upward or downward fortunes of the SNP.

Or are you hanging your hopes on Westminster continuing to deny democracy?

It's called having an opinion, Independence is further away than it's ever been. The last poll had a very small lead for the 16-25 age group with Yes getting 52%, not exactly an overwhelming lead is it.

Keep fighting and repeating the same battles though and maybe next time it will be different.

[The Harp Awakes]

It's called having an opinion, Independence is further away than it's ever been. The last poll had a very small lead for the 16-25 age group with Yes getting 52%, not exactly an overwhelming lead is it.

Keep fighting and repeating the same battles though and maybe next time it will be different.

On the contrary, I'm perfectly happy for unionists to hold that opinion. Blind optimism by unionists helps the inevitable outcome which is Scotland becoming an independent nation.

[Mibbes Aye]

I've seen you writing some drivel on here but you've surpassed yourself this time. Do you genuinely believe what you write or is it all wishful thinking?

How does an increase in independence support from ~28% in early 2014 to ~52-56% earlier this year mean independence is further away? There may be movement up and down in support in the years ahead, but the general direction of travel is a growing increase in support for independence. Demographics will see to that, not the upward or downward fortunes of the SNP.

Or are you hanging your hopes on Westminster continuing to deny democracy?

I'm not sure that can be relied upon, in and of itself. In the 1979 referendum 'younger' voters were more in favour of devolution than the status quo. That didn't translate into a sweeping yes for independence come 2014. And that generation of voters were about to experience 18 years of Thatcher-heavy Tory goverrnment!

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not sure that can be relied upon, in and of itself. In the 1979 referendum 'younger' voters were more in favour of devolution than the status quo. That didn't translate into a sweeping yes for independence come 2014. And that generation of voters were about to experience 18 years of Thatcher-heavy Tory goverrnment!

It did translate into a sweeping win for devolution in 1997 though which is surely more relevant?


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[WeeRussell]

It's called having an opinion, Independence is further away than it's ever been. The last poll had a very small lead for the 16-25 age group with Yes getting 52%, not exactly an overwhelming lead is it.

Keep fighting and repeating the same battles though and maybe next time it will be different.

Surely your opinion isn’t that it’s further away than ever though? Like ever, ever?!

FWIW I think if you were anywhere close to believing that you wouldn’t be on here every day telling people why we can’t have it. Just an opinion as well obviously.

[Mibbes Aye]

It did translate into a sweeping win for devolution in 1997 though which is surely more relevant?


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No - I'm not explaining myself well. There's not a wealth of evidence from the time but what I am aware of (from the University of Edinburgh) is that younger voters were a lot more likely to vote for devolution than the status quo, as it existed. I don't think that necessarily surprises anyone.

Likewise we know, or at least I think everyoe agrees, that younger voters went for independence in 2014 rather than the status quo. The OP seemed to suggest demographics would lead to independence. I'm assuming they meant that these young voters would grow older and still be pro-Yes and a new generation of pro-Yes young voters would emerge and there would be this overwhelming majority.

Those twenty-somethings from 1979 are now in their forties and fifties. And for the numbers to make sense, some, imaybe many or even most, moved back to the status quo option in 2014, so I don't find the 'demographics will sort it' argument compelling.

[Ozyhibby]

No - I'm not explaining myself well. There's not a wealth of evidence from the time but what I am aware of (from the University of Edinburgh) is that younger voters were a lot more likely to vote for devolution than the status quo, as it existed. I don't think that necessarily surprises anyone.

Likewise we know, or at least I think everyoe agrees, that younger voters went for independence in 2014 rather than the status quo. The OP seemed to suggest demographics would lead to independence. I'm assuming they meant that these young voters would grow older and still be pro-Yes and a new generation of pro-Yes young voters would emerge and there would be this overwhelming majority.

Those twenty-somethings from 1979 are now in their forties and fifties. And for the numbers to make sense, some, imaybe many or even most, moved back to the status quo option in 2014, so I don't find the 'demographics will sort it' argument compelling.

The twenty somethings from 79 will be in their 60’s and 70’s now. All I was saying was that they were voting for devolution and 20 years later they achieved it with 75% of the vote. That generation probably never even contemplated Indy.
The demographic thing is interesting and we won’t really know the answer for 20 years or so.
It’s well known that people move from left to right as they age but there is no evidence it’s the same for yes to no (there can’t be). It is possible though.
I wonder though if people will even move left to right over the next 20 years? Since 2008 young people have been shafted big time. They are not building up a stake in society in the way they have in the past. They have been locked out the housing market for 15 years now unless their parents have the money to help them out. Wages have also been stagnant. When people can’t build up an asset base then they are a lot less afraid of change.
Not really my opinion as much as something I wonder about.


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[James310]

Surely your opinion isn’t that it’s further away than ever though? Like ever, ever?!

FWIW I think if you were anywhere close to believing that you wouldn’t be on here every day telling people why we can’t have it. Just an opinion as well obviously.

I don't think I have ever said "you can't have it" the opposite in fact laying out what I think needs to happen for another Referendum to happen, but hey ho I guess it's easier to ignore that.

[Mibbes Aye]

The twenty somethings from 79 will be in their 60’s and 70’s now. All I was saying was that they were voting for devolution and 20 years later they achieved it with 75% of the vote. That generation probably never even contemplated Indy.
The demographic thing is interesting and we won’t really know the answer for 20 years or so.
It’s well known that people move from left to right as they age but there is no evidence it’s the same for yes to no (there can’t be). It is possible though.
I wonder though if people will even move left to right over the next 20 years? Since 2008 young people have been shafted big time. They are not building up a stake in society in the way they have in the past. They have been locked out the housing market for 15 years now unless their parents have the money to help them out. Wages have also been stagnant. When people can’t build up an asset base then they are a lot less afraid of change.
Not really my opinion as much as something I wonder about.


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My error, with the numbers, I was thinking one thing while typing another!

I posted a few weeks back that I thought the best time for a Yes result would be during a Labour first term or early in a second term. When I think back to 1997 and then the early 2000s, there was far more optimism - a large part of it driven by a fresh administration philosophically sighted on society more than the individual and showing the power of the state to tackle structural inequalities like child povery, pensioner poverty, in-work pocerty etc.

I feel that kind of confidence or positivity is infectious. More importantly, I think seeing what good governments can do domestically may reassure some of the swing voters and make them more likely to consider voting Yes.

[Ozyhibby]

My error, with the numbers, I was thinking one thing while typing another!

I posted a few weeks back that I thought the best time for a Yes result would be during a Labour first term or early in a second term. When I think back to 1997 and then the early 2000s, there was far more optimism - a large part of it driven by a fresh administration philosophically sighted on society more than the individual and showing the power of the state to tackle structural inequalities like child povery, pensioner poverty, in-work pocerty etc.

I feel that kind of confidence or positivity is infectious. More importantly, I think seeing what good governments can do domestically may reassure some of the swing voters and make them more likely to consider voting Yes.

97-03 was a period where good things were happening in government. Then Iraq happened and I haven’t looked at Labour again. Domestically some good work but try as I might, I can’t get past it. I hear Tony Blair being interviewed and find myself agreeing with him on loads of issues but then I remember and start to feel sick. Such a waste. And the fact that I believe the damage done then has led us to where we are in Ukraine means time is not healing.


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[Zambernardi1875]

I don't think I have ever said "you can't have it" the opposite in fact laying out what I think needs to happen for another Referendum to happen, but hey ho I guess it's easier to ignore that.

maybe people dont ignore it but have a different opinion

[James310]

maybe people dont ignore it but have a different opinion

That's fine, but the accusation was I am telling people "you can't have it" is wrong.

If anything people are coming round to my way of thinking, even people on here now say it's about patience and building up support so there is a clear majority. There are no wheezes or short cuts to Independence such as a de facto referendum, it will only be won by persuading the majority of people.

Over the SNP v2 to see if they can do this.

[Zambernardi1875]

That's fine, but the accusation was I am telling people "you can't have it" is wrong.

If anything people are coming round to my way of thinking, even people on here now say it's about patience and building up support so there is a clear majority. There are no wheezes or short cuts to Independence such as a de facto referendum, it will only be won by persuading the majority of people.

Over the SNP v2 to see if they can do this.

nobody is coming round to youre way of thinking :tee hee:

[James310]

nobody is coming round to youre way of thinking :tee hee:

Oh I have seen a few, a few surprising ones as well.

[147lothian]

There will never be Independence under an SNP/Green coalition.

The recent disasters in The SNP all have a green source behind them, the greens have gone into government they don't like roads or building roads. The A9 promise is reneged upon which is a huge issue in the Highland's. The Gender Recognition Act, the failure to accept very reasonable amendments can only be explained by green pressure. The bottle return scheme, out of control under a green minister, the green tail has been wagging the SNP dog much to the detriment of government. Here is another example of green extremism it's not long since the greens were accusing The SNP of transphobia.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/green-councillors-brand-snp-as-transphobic-in-letter-on-government-talks-3284279

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/nicola-sturgeon-snp-resignation-mike-small/

Some good advice for a new leader and some daft suggestions as well.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

There will never be Independence under an SNP/Green coalition.

The recent disasters in The SNP all have a green source behind them, the greens have gone into government they don't like roads or building roads. The A9 promise is reneged upon which is a huge issue in the Highland's. The Gender Recognition Act, the failure to accept very reasonable amendments can only be explained by green pressure. The bottle return scheme, out of control under a green minister, the green tail has been wagging the SNP dog much to the detriment of government. Here is another example of green extremism it's not long since the greens were accusing The SNP of transphobia.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/green-councillors-brand-snp-as-transphobic-in-letter-on-government-talks-3284279

You'll never get rid of the SNP or Greens without independence.

[McD]

You'll never get rid of the SNP or Greens without independence.


I don’t think that was the point being made at all

i took it to be that for the snp to succeed, they need to rid themselves of relying upon the greens, or at least not allowing the greens to have so much sway over them (such as the examples given)

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I don’t think that was the point being made at all

i took it to be that for the snp to succeed, they need to rid themselves of relying upon the greens, or at least not allowing the greens to have so much sway over them (such as the examples given)

They'll have no choice but to keep relying on the Greens until the electorate suggests otherwise. It's almost impossible to command a single party majority in the Scottish Parliament. Proponents to independence will bemoan the SNP working with any other pro-independence party, knowing full well that this will almost always certainly be the case.

[McD]

They'll have no choice but to keep relying on the Greens until the electorate suggests otherwise. It's almost impossible to command a single party majority in the Scottish Parliament. Proponents to independence will bemoan the SNP working with any other pro-independence party, knowing full well that this will almost always certainly be the case.


No disagreement from me, I just meant that I don’t think the OP was aimed at getting rid of the snp or greens, simply that the influence the greens have currently/recently caused problems for the snp, such as the examples given

[Hibrandenburg]

Bernie Sauders says "Scotland should be allowed to go their own way".

[Moulin Yarns]

Bernie Sauders says "Scotland should be allowed to go their own way".

So does Fleetwood Mac. 😉

[Berwickhibby]

Bernie Sauders says "Scotland should be allowed to go their own way".

The KFC guy :faf::faf:

[WhileTheChief..]

Bernie Sauders says "Scotland should be allowed to go their own way".

Well, kind of. You missed out the bit where he said "if they want to".

He also said he didn't know anything about the issue and not to tell anyone what he said :greengrin

[grunt]

Well, kind of. You missed out the bit where he said "if they want to".
How about we find out if they want to by asking them?

[Hibrandenburg]

Well, kind of. You missed out the bit where he said "if they want to".

He also said he didn't know anything about the issue and not to tell anyone what he said :greengrin

Well that is kind of obvious.

[Hibrandenburg]

How about we find out if they want to by asking them?

Can't have that, asking an electorate what they want in periods of less than a generation is undemocratic.

[archie]

Can't have that, asking an electorate what they want in periods of less than a generation is undemocratic.

How are the German Lander dealing with the fact that it's illegal for them to secede?

[Hibrandenburg]

How are the German Lander dealing with the fact that it's illegal for them to secede?

It's not in their constitution and the history of how Germany became a nation is completely different to the UK, you're comparing apples and tractors.

[archie]

It's not in their constitution and the history of how Germany became a nation is completely different to the UK, you're comparing apples and tractors.

But your point appeared to be that not allowing unilateral succession was somehow undemocratic. Are you saying that Germany is undemocratic?

[grunt]

Is this a parallel universe?

[archie]

Is this a parallel universe?

I don't think so, but then again how can we be sure?

[Hibrandenburg]

But your point appeared to be that not allowing unilateral succession was somehow undemocratic. Are you saying that Germany is undemocratic?

I'm saying that Scotland is a democratic country in a union, much like Germany is a democratic country in a union. Germany isn't made up of countries. Like I say, you're comparing apples and tractors.

[archie]

I'm saying that Scotland is a democratic country in a union, much like Germany is a democratic country in a union. Germany isn't made up of countries. Like I say, you're comparing apples and tractors.

Scotland is part of a unitary state. Germany is a Federal state. But both are democracies. Why is it that laws against secession are undemocratic in the UK but democratic in Germany?

[Hibrandenburg]

Scotland is part of a unitary state. Germany is a Federal state. But both are democracies. Why is it that laws against secession are undemocratic in the UK but democratic in Germany?

Comparing the formation and resulting constitution in Germany to the formation of the UK is like comparing apples and tractors. You know that and you're at it.

[archie]

Comparing the formation and resulting constitution in Germany to the formation of the UK is like comparing apples and tractors. You know that and you're at it.

Care to say how they are different in a way that justifies why it's OK for one to outlaw succession but not the other?

[Hibrandenburg]

Care to say how they are different in a way that justifies why it's OK for one to outlaw succession but not the other?

1. Did the Scotland England Union agree to outlaw succession?
2. Did the German Union agree to outlaw succession during its constitution?

I'll answer for you because I've learned the hard way.

1. No
2. Yes

[archie]

1. Did the Scotland England Union agree to outlaw succession?
2. Did the German Union agree to outlaw succession during its constitution?

I'll answer for you because I've learned the hard way.

1. No
2. Yes

I think it's not as clear cut as you make out. Article 1 of the Act of Union states:

I. ‘That the two Kingdoms of (fn. 1) Scotland and England, shall, upon the first Day of May
next ensuing the Date hereof, and for ever after, be united into one Kingdom by the Name
of Great-Britain, and that the Ensigns Armorial of the said united Kingdom, be such as her
Majesty shall appoint; and the Crosses of St. Andrew and St. George be conjoined in such a
manner as her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all Flags, Banners, Standards, and Ensigns,
both at Sea and Land.

So the treaty is meant to be in perpetuity. But obviously the nature of the British constitution is that the UK Parliament can pass legislation to allow any part of the UK to secede. The German constitution forbids it. So the question becomes which country is more democratic? Your view is that you can't compare because of different constitutions. By your logic the Spanish Government actions in relation to Catalonia were correct?

[Moulin Yarns]

I think it's not as clear cut as you make out. Article 1 of the Act of Union states:

I. ‘That the two Kingdoms of (fn. 1) Scotland and England, shall, upon the first Day of May
next ensuing the Date hereof, and for ever after, be united into one Kingdom by the Name
of Great-Britain, and that the Ensigns Armorial of the said united Kingdom, be such as her
Majesty shall appoint; and the Crosses of St. Andrew and St. George be conjoined in such a
manner as her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all Flags, Banners, Standards, and Ensigns,
both at Sea and Land.

So the treaty is meant to be in perpetuity. But obviously the nature of the British constitution is that the UK Parliament can pass legislation to allow any part of the UK to secede. The German constitution forbids it. So the question becomes which country is more democratic? Your view is that you can't compare because of different constitutions. By your logic the Spanish Government actions in relation to Catalonia were correct?

Would you like to quote from the UK constitution?

[Hibrandenburg]

By your logic the Spanish Government actions in relation to Catalonia were correct?

In a legal sense correct. The morality of imprisoning a people with their own language and culture in a union against their wishes is another kettle of fish altogether though.

However this thread is about Scottish Independence, not Bavarian or Catalonian and diverting away from that is just your usual whataboutery. Scotland has a legal and moral right to decide its own future.

[archie]

In a legal sense correct. The morality of imprisoning a people with their own language and culture in a union against their wishes is another kettle of fish altogether though.

However this thread is about Scottish Independence, not Bavarian or Catalonian and diverting away from that is just your usual whataboutery. Scotland has a legal and moral right to decide its own future.

It's not whataboutery at all. You say it's undemocratic to not allow secession. I point the example of Germany - a western democracy that doesn't allow secession and you are OK with their approach. But a principle is a principle. Or is it only selectively applied.

[archie]

Would you like to quote from the UK constitution?

This is an excellent summary of the UK constitution. There's a misunderstanding that the UK doesn't have a constitution because it's not codified, but that's not the case. https://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/explainers/what-uk-constitution#:~:text=Codified%20constitutions%20ar e%20typically%20produced,cause%20to%20codify%20its %20constitution.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's not whataboutery at all. You say it's undemocratic to not allow secession. I point the example of Germany - a western democracy that doesn't allow secession and you are OK with their approach. But a principle is a principle. Or is it only selectively applied.

What the Germans do is up to them, we're talking about Scottish Independence as the thread title mildly hints at. In the Union between Scotland and England there is no clause that outlaws succession therefore it is on the table and taking it off the table is therefore undemocratic.

[archie]

What the Germans do is up to them, we're talking about Scottish Independence as the thread title mildly hints at. In the Union between Scotland and England there is no clause that outlaws succession therefore it is on the table and taking it off the table is therefore undemocratic.

So it's a legalistic approach and not a principled one? I don't understand why a core principle of democracy applies in UK but not in Germany - or indeed any country that explicitly forbids it.

[Hibrandenburg]

So it's a legalistic approach and not a principled one? I don't understand why a core principle of democracy applies in UK but not in Germany - or indeed any country that explicitly forbids it.

Maybe you can start another thread about international core principles of democracy and keep this one for discussing Scottish democracy.

[The Tubs]

Maybe you can start another thread about international core principles of democracy and keep this one for discussing Scottish democracy.

At the end of the day, all organisation of human affairs should be up for debate in a democracy if enough people want to talk about them. If the Hanoverians want to be independent, they should go for it — the Brits can give them back their royal family.

[archie]

Maybe you can start another thread about international core principles of democracy and keep this one for discussing Scottish democracy.

I can see why you don't want to discuss core principles of democracy, but if you cite democratic principles you really need to stand by them.

[The Tubs]

I can see why you don't want to discuss core principles of democracy, but if you cite democratic principles you really need to stand by them.


Turn off at 0-2?

[archie]

Turn off at 0-2?

???

[The Tubs]

???


I was suggesting you’d lost interest in the cup final when sevco went 0-2 down and returned to this debate. The timing was bang on.

[archie]

I was suggesting you’d lost interest in the cup final when sevco went 0-2 down and returned to this debate. The timing was bang on.

What are you talking about? I'm just celebrating a Scottish try.

[archie]

I was suggesting you’d lost interest in the cup final when sevco went 0-2 down and returned to this debate. The timing was bang on.

That's one of the cheapest comments I've seen here in a while. Says more about you than it does me.

[The Tubs]

That's one of the cheapest comments I've seen here in a while. Says more about you than it does me.

Gadgie, I'll listen to anyone whether they like rugby, sevco or whatever. I was keeping up the fitba myself.

[One Day Soon]

Turn off at 0-2?


That’s a truly pathetic post. Get a grip.

[archie]

Gadgie, I'll listen to anyone whether they like rugby, sevco or whatever. I was keeping up the fitba myself.

No you were suggesting because of the discussion that I had to be a Rangers fan. That's about you rather than me.

[Hibrandenburg]

I can see why you don't want to discuss core principles of democracy, but if you cite democratic principles you really need to stand by them.

What a load of single fish. We're talking about Scottish Independence here on the Scottish Independence thread and Scotland being denied the democratic right to decide its own fate, if you want to talk about worldwide core principles of democracy then start a thread on it. Bringing up the Spanish and German constitution is pure whataboutery and completely irrelevant to the situation in Scotland.

[Mibbes Aye]

What a load of single fish. We're talking about Scottish Independence here on the Scottish Independence thread and Scotland being denied the democratic right to decide its own fate, if you want to talk about worldwide core principles of democracy then start a thread on it. Bringing up the Spanish and German constitution is pure whataboutery and completely irrelevant to the situation in Scotland.

We did.

It was decided.

It's just taken an awfully long time for the toys to go back in the smaller, but noisier, grievance pram.

[Moulin Yarns]

This is an excellent summary of the UK constitution. There's a misunderstanding that the UK doesn't have a constitution because it's not codified, but that's not the case. https://www.ucl.ac.uk/constitution-unit/explainers/what-uk-constitution#:~:text=Codified%20constitutions%20ar e%20typically%20produced,cause%20to%20codify%20its %20constitution.

Basically, the UK can choose what they want to do with the unwritten Constitution because it doesn't exist

[archie]

What a load of single fish. We're talking about Scottish Independence here on the Scottish Independence thread and Scotland being denied the democratic right to decide its own fate, if you want to talk about worldwide core principles of democracy then start a thread on it. Bringing up the Spanish and German constitution is pure whataboutery and completely irrelevant to the situation in Scotland.
I genuinely don't understand why something is a democratic right as a matter of principle in the UK but somehow not in other democracies? That's not whataboutery, but rather exposing an inconsistency in your argument. I do think it's odd that the UK, which allowed Scotland the choice is being slammed while other countries that don't give that choice are not.

[Rumble de Thump]

We did.

It was decided.

It's just taken an awfully long time for the toys to go back in the smaller, but noisier, grievance pram.

Why do you not want people in Scotland to be allowed to make decisions now or in the future?

[James310]

I genuinely don't understand why something is a democratic right as a matter of principle in the UK but somehow not in other democracies? That's not whataboutery, but rather exposing an inconsistency in your argument. I do think it's odd that the UK, which allowed Scotland the choice is being slammed while other countries that don't give that choice are not.

Fair point, Scotland had it's biggest ever democratic exercise in it's history with millions taking part on deciding it's future but Germany doesn't even allow anything like that to happen and apparently it's us living in the democracy denying state. 🤔

[Mibbes Aye]

Why do you not want people in Scotland to be allowed to make decisions now or in the future?

Where did I say that?

People in Scotland make decisions all the time, to elect councillors and MSPs. And I've repeatedly banged a drum for devolving democracy outwards from Holyrood.

As far as it goes, I think even a majority of SNP voters don't want a referendum just now. Nevertheless the angry, aggrieved minority will continue to bluster and shout.

[Glory Lurker]

Mair whataboutery going on here than twitter about the Hampden rammy this morning.

[Hibrandenburg]

Mair whataboutery going on here than twitter about the Hampden rammy this morning.

Apparently Scotland's right to self determination is invalid because Germany doesn't allow it or some ***** like that. They can't justify Westminster's position so deflect deflect deflect.

[One Day Soon]

Apparently Scotland's right to self determination is invalid because Germany doesn't allow it or some ***** like that. They can't justify Westminster's position so deflect deflect deflect.

Is anybody actually saying that?

[marinello59]

Is anybody actually saying that?

Aye. Hibrandenburg is. :greengrin

[Zambernardi1875]

Apparently Scotland's right to self determination is invalid because Germany doesn't allow it or some ***** like that. They can't justify Westminster's position so deflect deflect deflect.

there all out fishing the night

[James310]

Apparently Scotland's right to self determination is invalid because Germany doesn't allow it or some ***** like that. They can't justify Westminster's position so deflect deflect deflect.

I thought you said Humza Yousaf came across well earlier? His path to a second referendum is to win the argument and show sustained polling support for independence. So until that's happens I think Westminster's position is justified, especially seeing as we already rejected Independence not very long ago.

Did you agree with his approach?

As an aside it's encouraging to see Humza Yousaf suggest what I was suggesting a while back, get sustainable support in the polls and a second referendum will happen. It would have my support.

[Glory Lurker]

Is anybody actually saying that?

It seems to be relevant to some.

We should compile a list of countries that ban independence. It will add greatly to the debate about Scotland.

[grunt]

We did.

It was decided.

It's just taken an awfully long time for the toys to go back in the smaller, but noisier, grievance pram.

See that democracy? You had it in 2014. You wasted it. Now get back in your box.

[Skol]

See that democracy? You had it in 2014. You wasted it. Now get back in your box.

The opportunity to capitalise post brexit was wasted. And then again when boris was put in charge. And again when truss got a shot.

[James310]

See that democracy? You had it in 2014. You wasted it. Now get back in your box.

Do you agree with Humza Yousaf that the path to a second referendum is to win the argument and show a sustainable majority for Independence?

If not what's your path to Independence?

This SNP MSP posted his thoughts, you may be surprised to hear I agree with a lot he says.

https://twitter.com/ThomasCArthur/status/1629799977827418114?cxt=HHwWhIC-1bucm54tAAAA

He ends it with.

"The path to independence remains as it has always been: convince a majority of people in Scotland to support independence and convince them to make it a priority"

[The Modfather]

I thought you said Humza Yousaf came across well earlier? His path to a second referendum is to win the argument and show sustained polling support for independence. So until that's happens I think Westminster's position is justified, especially seeing as we already rejected Independence not very long ago.

Did you agree with his approach?

As an aside it's encouraging to see Humza Yousaf suggest what I was suggesting a while back, get sustainable support in the polls and a second referendum will happen. It would have my support.

What is sustained support? A percentage, higher or lower depending on what side of the fence people are sitting on, from selective polls depending on what side of the fence people are sitting on?

Or put something in your manifesto, if the electorate vote for that then they are able to deliver their manifesto. Simple and definitive. Not vague metrics to meet.

[archie]

Apparently Scotland's right to self determination is invalid because Germany doesn't allow it or some ***** like that. They can't justify Westminster's position so deflect deflect deflect.
I hesitate to ask, but what is ,'Scotland's right to self determination ' in any legal sense?

[Mibbes Aye]

See that democracy? You had it in 2014. You wasted it. Now get back in your box.

The only thing wasted is nearly ten years that could have been all about social care, housing, health and education. You know, the things that genuinely matter.

Still, better to be all bitter and aggrieved about flags and stuff, eh?

[Glory Lurker]

I hesitate to ask, but what is ,'Scotland's right to self determination ' in any legal sense?

You didn't ask me but it is a principle of the UN and it would be a jolly good fair play British thing to allow chaps to decide what they want to do.

[James310]

You didn't ask me but it is a principle of the UN and it would be a jolly good fair play British thing to allow chaps to decide what they want to do.

Would that be like the self determination we had then? Like that?

[Glory Lurker]

Would that be like the self determination we had then? Like that?

You're replying to me, replying to archie, who wasn't replying to me? Madness.

[archie]

You didn't ask me but it is a principle of the UN and it would be a jolly good fair play British thing to allow chaps to decide what they want to do.

Seeing as you picked it up, you know that UN principles of self determination should be read in conjunction with UN principles in territorial integrity.

[Glory Lurker]

Seeing as you picked it up, you know that UN principles of self determination should be read in conjunction with UN principles in territorial integrity.

No, but isn't that about not invading other folk?

Whatever, you seem to want Scotland to not have the ability to choose, should it want to in the future. Just say it instead of pointing elsewhere.

[archie]

No, but isn't that about not invading other folk?

Whatever, you seem to want Scotland to not have the ability to choose, should it want to in the future. Just say it instead of pointing elsewhere.
Actually I thought it was perfectly legitimate to do the deal that led to the Edinburgh agreement and the subsequent referendum. What I don't like is the potential for convulsive and paralysing referenda called at a whim by a devolved administration.

[Ozyhibby]

The only thing wasted is nearly ten years that could have been all about social care, housing, health and education. You know, the things that genuinely matter.

Still, better to be all bitter and aggrieved about flags and stuff, eh?

Have they done all those things in England where they are not all worried about flags and stuff?


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[Mibbes Aye]

Have they done all those things in England where they are not all worried about flags and stuff?


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Of course they've not, it's been Tory or Tory-led since 2010.

So what we've had is one government obsessing about leaving a union and another government, ehm, obsessing about leaving a union.

And neither with a semblance of a case for doing so, other than petty grievance.

[James310]

Some story is about to break about Sturgeon and Murrell. It's on Twitter so it must be true.

https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1629940094697086978?t=diJYG4s46Gi4fJgeYr9yUw&s=19

[Glory Lurker]

Actually I thought it was perfectly legitimate to do the deal that led to the Edinburgh agreement and the subsequent referendum. What I don't like is the potential for convulsive and paralysing referenda called at a whim by a devolved administration.

You only needed to say that and not take us on a a German detour! I respect your view.

[Glory Lurker]

Some story is about to break about Sturgeon and Murrell. It's on Twitter so it must be true.

https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1629940094697086978?t=diJYG4s46Gi4fJgeYr9yUw&s=19

He doesn't say anything about Sturgeon and Murrell yet you know it's about them. You know the goss. What is it?

[The Tubs]

No you were suggesting because of the discussion that I had to be a Rangers fan. That's about you rather than me.

Ad huninem, eh? Sorry, pal :wink:. It was actually the timing and the argument. Of course it's about me.

[James310]

He doesn't say anything about Sturgeon and Murrell yet you know it's about them. You know the goss. What is it?

Could be nonsense but remember the Ann Gloag story a few weeks back, that has a part to play.

Whatever it is we should know soon enough.

But I freely admit we have been here before and it's been nothing.

[Ozyhibby]

Of course they've not, it's been Tory or Tory-led since 2010.

So what we've had is one government obsessing about leaving a union and another government, ehm, obsessing about leaving a union.

And neither with a semblance of a case for doing so, other than petty grievance.

Yes because the UK is in such fine fettle, why would anyone want to leave.[emoji849]


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[Moulin Yarns]

You're replying to me, replying to archie, who wasn't replying to me? Madness.

😂😂😂

[Glory Lurker]

Could be nonsense but remember the Ann Gloag story a few weeks back, that has a part to play.

Whatever it is we should know soon enough.

But I freely admit we have been here before and it's been nothing.

Booooooooo! That's nae guid!

But, hang on, you're bringing Ann Gloag into it now. She didn't get mentioned either.

In olden days parlance - spill!

[Moulin Yarns]

Some story is about to break about Sturgeon and Murrell. It's on Twitter so it must be true.

https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1629940094697086978?t=diJYG4s46Gi4fJgeYr9yUw&s=19

I don't want to burst your bubble, but, Murdo ****ing Fraser!!!!!!!

[James310]

I don't want to burst your bubble, but, Murdo ****ing Fraser!!!!!!!

You don't think an opposition MSP who would have significant links to the media would be in a position to get some information? Would it be better if it was some random from Twitter.

[grunt]

And neither with a semblance of a case for doing so, other than petty grievance.

Here he is posting on a thread with 25000 posts, telling us all that there's no case for Scottish Independence.

Where have you been? You could have saved us all this wasted energy. Thank goodness we have you to set us on the right path.

Oh and "petty grievance"? Huh.

[Glory Lurker]

Sakes, James. I've had to go and dig myself. If it's that then, wow.

Glad I found the rumour (by myself, without your help - what sort of a Nat slayer are you, furgawdsake?) so I can head of to bed now. Let's see what tomorrow brings.

[One Day Soon]

Uh oh…

Brace yourselves boys and girls.

[James310]

Sakes, James. I've had to go and dig myself. If it's that then, wow.

Glad I found the rumour (by myself, without your help - what sort of a Nat slayer are you, furgawdsake?) so I can head of to bed now. Let's see what tomorrow brings.

It's only part of it, much more to come if it's true. It started a chain reaction though.

[Mibbes Aye]

Here he is posting on a thread with 25000 posts, telling us all that there's no case for Scottish Independence.

Where have you been? You could have saved us all this wasted energy. Thank goodness we have you to set us on the right path.

Oh and "petty grievance"? Huh.

I said there was no semblance of a case for leaving a union, pay attention at the back :greengrin

To be honest, I dont see you posting a rational case for why nationalism makes any sense in the 21st century or indeed the benefits of leaving the union.

That's fair enough, maybe you will persuade those who decisively rejected the 2014 offer through the richness of your sentiment.

[archie]

You only needed to say that and not take us on a a German detour! I respect your view.
Well I thought it was a discussion about democratic principles!

[speedy_gonzales]

Some story is about to break about Sturgeon and Murrell. It's on Twitter so it must be true.

https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1629940094697086978?t=diJYG4s46Gi4fJgeYr9yUw&s=19

Father Stu from WoS tweeting some rather silly (and quite frankly crass) innuendo.

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1629917674393202688?t=bSW6-sqQDsNq3dBV1zV_nA&s=19

[Moulin Yarns]

You don't think an opposition MSP who would have significant links to the media would be in a position to get some information? Would it be better if it was some random from Twitter.

Fwiw, Murdo ****ing Fraser is supposed to be one of my MSPs. Care to enlighten us on what **** he has on the SNP?

[Moulin Yarns]

Uh oh…

Brace yourselves boys and girls.

Aye. The usual suspects!!!!

[OldEast]

Father Stu from WoS tweeting some rather silly (and quite frankly crass) innuendo.

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1629917674393202688?t=bSW6-sqQDsNq3dBV1zV_nA&s=19

But spot on though

[Glory Lurker]

Get on with it!

[Berwickhibby]

Father Stu from WoS tweeting some rather silly (and quite frankly crass) innuendo.

https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/1629917674393202688?t=bSW6-sqQDsNq3dBV1zV_nA&s=19

Anything posted by the egotistical tosser Stu from ‘Wings over Bath’ should best be ignored

[Glory Lurker]

Got to say today's been a disappointment on the scandal front.

[OldEast]

Obviously we can't be up to date with why all these posts were deleted but surely on a football forum me telling someone they should step away from the internet if they are upset by a joke doesn't need deleted.

[Ozyhibby]

Not sure why I’ve had a post deleted? I go out my way not to offend.


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[speedy_gonzales]

Not sure why I’ve had a post deleted? I go out my way not to offend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Likewise, unsure why my post was deleted by PB given to what I was responding to 🤔

[speedy_gonzales]

Obviously we can't be up to date with why all these posts were deleted but surely on a football forum me telling someone they should step away from the internet if they are upset by a joke doesn't need deleted.

I missed your reply just as I missed "the joke". We're maybe looking at things from different angles here but I can't condone the derogatory language used towards someone that was in that tweet.

[Santa Cruz]

Likewise, unsure why my post was deleted by PB given to what I was responding to 🤔

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not having a go at you. If you found the wording in the link offensive, why post it in the first place?

[HNA11]

Some posts were deleted because they quoted other posts which were deleted or quoted posts that contained other inappropriate content that would then remain visible in a quoted post.

As we have said many times before when the debate ends up in the gutter, we all suffer for it.

[HNA12]

Not sure why I’ve had a post deleted? I go out my way not to offend.


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Likewise, unsure why my post was deleted by PB given to what I was responding to 🤔

No offence caused by either of you. The posts you quoted were removed so unfortunately your replies had to go as well.

[Moulin Yarns]

Blimey!!

This was very quiet overnight, then I miss the ****storm at lunch time

[speedy_gonzales]

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not having a go at you. If you found the wording in the link offensive, why post it in the first place?

No offence taken from you SC, I do find the word used offensive in the context, but I posted it to highlight how far Wings over Scotland have gone given their original leanings/postings and the relevance to this thread (when it stays on topic).
I've never been a fan of WoS, always thought the boy suffered an undiagnosed blow to the head at some point but many folk have posted his ramblings here via links or whatever.
Just goes to show how toxic politics can become when you fall out of favour with fringe commentators and they come out on full attack mode. No wonder the FM is stepping down.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Why is anybody surprised to hear yet again that we're in a non-voluntary union? This was demonstrated very clearly not too long ago. Scotland isn't allowed to decide when it wants a decision on independence, no matter how dire things get in the UK.

If/when a very clear majority does become apparent (which I believe it will), they'll simply send the tanks in.

[CropleyWasGod]

Why is anybody surprised to hear yet again that we're in a non-voluntary union? This was demonstrated very clearly not too long ago. Scotland isn't allowed to decide when it wants a decision on independence, no matter how dire things get in the UK.

If/when a very clear majority does become apparent (which I believe it will), they'll simply send the tanks in.

Literally or metaphorically?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Literally or metaphorically?

Going by history and reputation, it can only be literally.

[grunt]

Literally or metaphorically?It'll have to be metaphorically; it seems that UK MoD procurement is as bad as Ferries procurement in Scotland.

[Just Alf]

It'll have to be metaphorically; it seems that UK MoD procurement is as bad as Ferries procurement in Scotland.Apparently they've fixed the noise & vibration issues In the new armoured cars.. they've installed better seat cushions and are giving the crews better ear defenders.

All they need to do now is work out how they'll be able to fire their gun while moving... then job's a good 'un!

[ehf]

Apparently they've fixed the noise & vibration issues In the new armoured cars.. they've installed better seat cushions and are giving the crews better ear defenders.

All they need to do now is work out how they'll be able to fire their gun while moving... then job's a good 'un!

Sten guns in Stockbridge!

[He's here!]

You don't think an opposition MSP who would have significant links to the media would be in a position to get some information? Would it be better if it was some random from Twitter.

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1629783756763537409?s=20

[Ozyhibby]

I really think the SG should be starting a campaign for Scotland to get the same sort of deal as NI get. There would be a massive majority in favour within Scotland. The Labour Party surely could be won over to help the campaign?
It helps Scottish business, so surely the business community would be on board as well.
We have to break the all or nothing cycle in Scottish politics and try and make life better for the people who live here.


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[Hibrandenburg]

I really think the SG should be starting a campaign for Scotland to get the same sort of deal as NI get. There would be a massive majority in favour within Scotland. The Labour Party surely could be won over to help the campaign?
It helps Scottish business, so surely the business community would be on board as well.
We have to break the all or nothing cycle in Scottish politics and try and make life better for the people who live here.


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There's no way Scottish Labour would deviate from their head office on constitutional matters.

[Zambernardi1875]

There's no way Scottish Labour would deviate from their head office on constitutional matters.

a perfect move for the new Fm then. Show labour up for what they are

[archie]

I really think the SG should be starting a campaign for Scotland to get the same sort of deal as NI get. There would be a massive majority in favour within Scotland. The Labour Party surely could be won over to help the campaign?
It helps Scottish business, so surely the business community would be on board as well.
We have to break the all or nothing cycle in Scottish politics and try and make life better for the people who live here.


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Do you think there would be risks for the SNP linking policies explicitly to Northern Ireland?

[Kato]

Do you think there would be risks for the SNP linking policies explicitly to Northern Ireland?Don't you want Scotland to have the "best of both worlds", just like the north of Ireland?

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[grunt]

Do you think there would be risks for the SNP linking policies explicitly to Northern Ireland?
Strange question. Anyway, it would be linking to a deal that the UK Govt have struck with the EU over NI, not NI itself. We just want the same treatment as another part of the UK.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fp4AxxQWwAApFpm?format=jpg&name=medium

[archie]

Don't you want Scotland to have the "best of both worlds", just like the north of Ireland?

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One of the things that really worried me about Brexit was the impact it would have on Ireland. And so it came to pass. Given the history there and the practical issue of the land border, I can see the case for a specific deal. Fortunately we haven't experienced what Ireland has. Personally, I would rather the UK entered into agreements with the EU. FWIW I think that will happen over time.

[Kato]

One of the things that really worried me about Brexit was the impact it would have on Ireland. And so it came to pass. Given the history there and the practical issue of the land border, I can see the case for a specific deal. Fortunately we haven't experienced what Ireland has. Personally, I would rather the UK entered into agreements with the EU. FWIW I think that will happen over time.But Ireland have it now and Scotland will probably lose out on investment which will favour Ireland.

Why can't we have it now ad well?

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[Stairway 2 7]

Starmer said yesterday he wants to change the new deal and further normalise relations with EU. I would advise him not to mention the subject until they are in power. But I'm sure brexit will slowly be scrapped over the next 10 years whoever is in power, it's now clearly madness to have it and the public are swaying towards being of the same opinion

[Ozyhibby]

Starmer said yesterday he wants to change the new deal and further normalise relations with EU. I would advise him not to mention the subject until they are in power. But I'm sure brexit will slowly be scrapped over the next 10 years whoever is in power, it's now clearly madness to have it and the public are swaying towards being of the same opinion

Scotland should not wait though. The campaign for equality with NI should begin now.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Scotland should not wait though. The campaign for equality with NI should begin now.


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I agree

[archie]

But Ireland have it now and Scotland will probably lose out on investment which will favour Ireland.

Why can't we have it now ad well?

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OK help me here. What problem are you trying to solve and how would adopting theNI deal in Scotland do that?

[grunt]

OK help me here. What problem are you trying to solve and how would adopting theNI deal in Scotland do that?
https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-place-europe/

[Ozyhibby]

OK help me here. What problem are you trying to solve and how would adopting theNI deal in Scotland do that?

You don’t think being in the SM and CU would be a benefit to Scottish business and the Scottish economy?


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[archie]

You don’t think being in the SM and CU would be a benefit to Scottish business and the Scottish economy?


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Yes, which is why the UK parliament should have voted for it when it had the chance. But that doesn't answer the question - what specific issue for Scotland would be solved by adopting the NI deal? Bearing in mind that much of the issue was NI having a land border with Ireland.

[archie]

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-place-europe/

That's a 7 year old paper. The updated one hasn't been published yet

[Kato]

OK help me here. What problem are you trying to solve and how would adopting theNI deal in Scotland do that?The problem for Scotland is jobs and investment which may have come here will now be reconsidered and go to the north of Ireland. They voted to remain and are allowed to do so, Scotland voted to remain and are not allowed to do that.

Not that I think the north of Ireland deal will be accepted anyway, the DUP will invoke their special brand of intransigence and muck it up for the rest of the population.


There is also the problem that no one wants to invest in the UK, not even those patriotic billionaires who drove brexit, but the north of Ireland is now in a better position.

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[grunt]

That's a 7 year old paper. The updated one hasn't been published yetIt makes the case for Scotland remaining in the Single Market while the rest of the UK leaves. Which is what NI has now. The fact that it's 7 years old just emphasises how far-sighted the Scottish Government was back in 2016.

[Zambernardi1875]

Some story is about to break about Sturgeon and Murrell. It's on Twitter so it must be true.

https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1629940094697086978?t=diJYG4s46Gi4fJgeYr9yUw&s=19

what happened with this rumour you dug up from the dregs of society

[archie]

The problem for Scotland is jobs and investment which may have come here will now be reconsidered and go to the north of Ireland. They voted to remain and are allowed to do so, Scotland voted to remain and are not allowed to do that.

Not that I think the north of Ireland deal will be accepted anyway, the DUP will invoke their special brand of intransigence and muck it up for the rest of the population.


There is also the problem that no one wants to invest in the UK, not even those patriotic billionaires who drove brexit, but the north of Ireland is now in a better position.

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I mean that's pretty vague. What's the specific issue you want to sort? Bear in mind some goods from Britain couldn’t be sold in NI under the previous position. We don't have a land border with an EU country.

[James310]

what happened with this rumour you dug up from the dregs of society

It remains as that, a rumour.

[Kato]

I mean that's pretty vague. What's the specific issue you want to sort? Bear in mind some goods from Britain couldn’t be sold in NI under the previous position. We don't have a land border with an EU country.Potential jobs and investment.

What's vague?

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[Hibrandenburg]

Yes, which is why the UK parliament should have voted for it when it had the chance. But that doesn't answer the question - what specific issue for Scotland would be solved by adopting the NI deal? Bearing in mind that much of the issue was NI having a land border with Ireland.

It also has no land border with the rest of the UK.

[archie]

It also has no land border with the rest of the UK.

Indeed - that was part of the issue.

[heretoday]

Starmer said yesterday he wants to change the new deal and further normalise relations with EU. I would advise him not to mention the subject until they are in power. But I'm sure brexit will slowly be scrapped over the next 10 years whoever is in power, it's now clearly madness to have it and the public are swaying towards being of the same opinion

Let's hope so.

[archie]

Potential jobs and investment.

What's vague?

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You've answered the question. Potential jobs and investment- how? Have you factored in the impact of any proposal leading to an effective border with Engand and Wales? I suspect that's what you want. But 'potential jobs and investment ' is not a specific problem in the way that NI faced. And in any event, the EU won't negotiate with the Scottish Government as it would be a UKG issue. And the NI deal had an EU member pushing for it. Now as it happens I think the EU has a pretty proud history I relation to NI. I just don’t see the parallels with Scotland and I don't see what would be in it for the EU.

[grunt]

You've answered the question. Potential jobs and investment- how? Have you factored in the impact of any proposal leading to an effective border with Engand and Wales? I suspect that's what you want. But 'potential jobs and investment ' is not a specific problem in the way that NI faced. And in any event, the EU won't negotiate with the Scottish Government as it would be a UKG issue. And the NI deal had an EU member pushing for it. Now as it happens I think the EU has a pretty proud history I relation to NI. I just don’t see the parallels with Scotland and I don't see what would be in it for the EU.
You seem to be getting all confused about this. It's quite simple: Sunak is supposed to be the PM for all of the UK; so why is it deemed acceptable for him to put in place a deal which sees one part of the UK in both the EU and the UK market, but not another? That gives NI an advantage over Scotland in attracting inward investment. If you consider the way that each country of the UK voted in the damned referendum, every country has got what they voted for EXCEPT Scotland.

Why is that, do you think?

[archie]

You seem to be getting all confused about this. It's quite simple: Sunak is supposed to be the PM for all of the UK; so why is it deemed acceptable for him to put in place a deal which sees one part of the UK in both the EU and the UK market, but not another? That gives NI an advantage over Scotland in attracting inward investment. If you consider the way that each country of the UK voted in the damned referendum, every country has got what they voted for EXCEPT Scotland.

Why is that, do you think?

I think you are looking at this the wrong way. A special deal was needed for NI because it's special. It has a land border with an EU member and had 40 years of armed conflict. The settlement led to absurdities like stores in NI couldn't stock British goods. It's such a specific ( and tragic) set of circumstances that it needed a specific deal. As for your claims about investment- any evidence? I know you would like to be I the EU (as would I) but the idea that this would be a short cut is fanciful. What would be in it for the EU?

[grunt]

As for your claims about investment- any evidence? Have another listen to that speech from Sunak. "Unbelievable opportunity". If you were a Japanese company wanting to set up a base in Europe to sell into the EU but also into the UK, where would you choose? Not Scotland that's for sure, because Scotland is not in the EU.

[archie]

Have another listen to that speech from Sunak. "Unbelievable opportunity". If you were a Japanese company wanting to set up a base in Europe to sell into the EU but also into the UK, where would you choose? Not Scotland that's for sure, because Scotland is not in the EU.
I mean maybe or maybe not. But given these investment decisions aren't made on a whim or quickly it is unlikely to be made on the basis of a speech. But to the point, you keep saying about the need for this deal for Scotland. The rationale is vague and the potential unintended consequences ignored. But most fundamentally, is there any evidence the EU would want such a deal?

[Callum_62]

Are you arguing being in the EU SM isn't beneficial?

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[Ozyhibby]

Are you arguing being in the EU SM isn't beneficial?

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It appears so.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Are you arguing being in the EU SM isn't beneficial?

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He'd argue with himself and then claim he didn't know the other guy.

[James310]

He'd argue with himself and then claim he didn't know the other guy.

Who would?

If you are talking about Archie one of the best posters on here. Calls out the lazy stereotyping and cliches that many seem happy to use.

[archie]

Are you arguing being in the EU SM isn't beneficial?

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No.

[Callum_62]

No.What are you debating then? Surely having the beneifts of being in the EU SM and the UK with free trade would be a no brainer it attract more investment

It means NI now have a one up on the other nations in the UK

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[Kato]

You've answered the question. Potential jobs and investment- how? Have you factored in the impact of any proposal leading to an effective border with Engand and Wales?

Those who seem to be against the "Windsor Framework" (don't laugh) are complaining that EU law, covering technical aspects of conveying goods which may change in the coming years, may change in the coming years. This they feel "isn't brexit" because a part of the UK has its sovereignty beholden or some other term to the EU, which they all hate and abhor.

What it really is is a part of the "unitary state" is allowed to operate on different terms to the rest. Apart I suppose from the City of London which also operates outwith the rests sovereignty.

The north of Ireland has access to extra markets, England has the City of London and the jobs that generates and their sovereignty is being respected given how they voted in their Brexit vote, which they arranged for themselves.

Where's Scotlands opportunity?We get the worst of one world.



I suspect that's what you want.

If you look above I was asking why we aren't allowed to have the kind of "potential" that Ireland, and England, have. What I want is neither here nor there, I'm only discussing the situation. We seem to have a different type of sovereignty to the rest of the UK.



But 'potential jobs and investment ' is not a specific problem in the way that NI faced.

It's a specific problem for Scotland.



And in any event, the EU won't negotiate with the Scottish Government as it would be a UKG issue. And the NI deal had an EU member pushing for it. Now as it happens I think the EU has a pretty proud history I relation to NI. I just don’t see the parallels with Scotland and I don't see what would be in it for the EU.

Trade would be in it for the EU.

Anyway once this pans out it'll become obvious it involves some of the most stubborn people in the world.


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[Kato]

I think you are looking at this the wrong way. A special deal was needed for NI because it's special. It has a land border with an EU member and had 40 years of armed conflict. The settlement led to absurdities like stores in NI couldn't stock British goods. It's such a specific ( and tragic) set of circumstances that it needed a specific deal.

Personally I don't really care about the abstract notion of sovereignty or principalities or all that "he's king of there, she's a princess" stuff. But you have to watch the type of message that sends out. Northern Ireland is special, the City of London is special. Everybody is getting to keep what they want according to how they voted because they are special. Shut-up Scotland.

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[archie]

Personally I don't really care about the abstract notion of sovereignty or principalities or all that "he's king of there, she's a princess" stuff. But you have to watch the type of message that sends out. Northern Ireland is special, the City of London is special. Everybody is getting to keep what they want according to how they voted because they are special. Shut-up Scotland.

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I'm really confused here. How is the City of London in the single market? The issue with Northern Ireland isn't about opening up the single market. It's about amending arrangements that meant the rest of the UK couldn't trade in some areas with Northern Ireland. I've set out above why NI is 'special'. A land border with an EU country and no land border with the rest of the UK is a real issue. Add to that 40 years of armed conflict which nobody wants to see recur and certainly don't want to cut across the Good Friday agreement. And crucially, the EU was acting to protect the interest of one of it's members - Ireland. So the agreement is to be welcomed as a good thing.

Now you are arguing that it should apply to Scotland for some vague reasons around trade and investment. By vague I mean you don't point to specific issues that an agreement with the EU would solve. The NI agreement solved problems with the UK internal market. Your proposal would create them. We have no land border with the EU. Our only land border is with England, which implies a trade border between Scotland and England. Why would the UK government do that? And again, what's in it for the EU. You say trade. What trade that can't happen now? We're still allowed to trade with the EU. I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm genuinely struggling to see what you want the UKG and EU to agree in practical terms.

[Callum_62]

I'm really confused here. How is the City of London in the single market? The issue with Northern Ireland isn't about opening up the single market. It's about amending arrangements that meant the rest of the UK couldn't trade in some areas with Northern Ireland. I've set out above why NI is 'special'. A land border with an EU country and no land border with the rest of the UK is a real issue. Add to that 40 years of armed conflict which nobody wants to see recur and certainly don't want to cut across the Good Friday agreement. And crucially, the EU was acting to protect the interest of one of it's members - Ireland. So the agreement is to be welcomed as a good thing.

Now you are arguing that it should apply to Scotland for some vague reasons around trade and investment. By vague I mean you don't point to specific issues that an agreement with the EU would solve. The NI agreement solved problems with the UK internal market. Your proposal would create them. We have no land border with the EU. Our only land border is with England, which implies a trade border between Scotland and England. Why would the UK government do that? And again, what's in it for the EU. You say trade. What trade that can't happen now? We're still allowed to trade with the EU. I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm genuinely struggling to see what you want the UKG and EU to agree in practical terms.Surly in the SM we would have vastly better trade arrangements than we have now

Just because its all called 'trade' doenst make it equal

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[archie]

Surly in the SM we would have vastly better trade arrangements than we have now

Just because its all called 'trade' doenst make it equal

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How would they be better trade arrangements if we introduced trade barriers with the rest of the UK?

[Mibbes Aye]

Those who seem to be against the "Windsor Framework" (don't laugh) are complaining that EU law, covering technical aspects of conveying goods which may change in the coming years, may change in the coming years. This they feel "isn't brexit" because a part of the UK has its sovereignty beholden or some other term to the EU, which they all hate and abhor.

What it really is is a part of the "unitary state" is allowed to operate on different terms to the rest. Apart I suppose from the City of London which also operates outwith the rests sovereignty.

The north of Ireland has access to extra markets, England has the City of London and the jobs that generates and their sovereignty is being respected given how they voted in their Brexit vote, which they arranged for themselves.

Where's Scotlands opportunity?We get the worst of one world.




If you look above I was asking why we aren't allowed to have the kind of "potential" that Ireland, and England, have. What I want is neither here nor there, I'm only discussing the situation. We seem to have a different type of sovereignty to the rest of the UK.



It's a specific problem for Scotland.




Trade would be in it for the EU.

Anyway once this pans out it'll become obvious it involves some of the most stubborn people in the world.


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Kudos for the almost but not quite imperceptible shift in your language across your post, with the broken-up quotes utilised to aid yout piece.
So what starts off as 'Northern Ireland', then turns into 'Northern Ireland and the City' which then turns into 'Ireland and England' which then turns into 'the whole of the UK except Scotland'.

I was too busy grinning at your sophistry to follow your point :greengrin

Anyways, I find the whole machinations of this fascinating. DUP members getting furious at the monarch, Steve Baker trying to act like this isn't everything he stood against until he accepted the front-bench shilling and BoJo and Frost dumbfounded as they try to work their next move.

But I sense this will be blown out the water for now - the Telegraph is publishing the details of 100,000 Whatsapp messages sent between Hancock and other ministers at the height of Covid. I think this one will reverberate!

[Kato]

How would they be better trade arrangements if we introduced trade barriers with the rest of the UK?The Northern Ireland deal has a green lane for goods bound to the internal market. Red Lane for good bound to Ireland. Goods bound to the EU from Scotland needn't go through England.

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[archie]

The Northern Ireland deal has a green lane for goods bound to the internal market. Red Lane for good bound to Ireland. Goods bound to the EU from Scotland needn't go through England.

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So how do they get there? There are no freight ferries from Scotland. And even if there was one, you would need arrangements to catch any goods that were cheaper to be exported through England. It's not clear to me how you would do this without some border checking berween Scotland and England and potentially again as they leave England.

Freight routes from Scotland failed because, even with subsidy, they were too expensive. Would you firce Scottish business to use direct riutes from Scotland, even if it made trade harder as it was more exp?

But more fundamentally, has the EU ever expressed any interest in such a relationship outwith the very special circumstances of NI? I asked you what was in it for the EU. You made a vague reference to trade. But seriously, why would they do it?

[Kato]

So how do they get there? There are no freight ferries from Scotland. And even if there was one, you would need arrangements to catch any goods that were cheaper to be exported through England. It's not clear to me how you would do this without some border checking berween Scotland and England and potentially again as they leave England.

Freight routes from Scotland failed because, even with subsidy, they were too expensive. Would you firce Scottish business to use direct riutes from Scotland, even if it made trade harder as it was more exp?

But more fundamentally, has the EU ever expressed any interest in such a relationship outwith the very special circumstances of NI? I asked you what was in it for the EU. You made a vague reference to trade. But seriously, why would they do it?Ok Archie. Let's not bother doing anything and watch the country flat line for another ten years.

Every if and but in your post can be worked around. Trade and logistics wax and wane all the time given the will to do so, which you obviously lack and want to talk down.

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[archie]

Ok Archie. Let's not bother doing anything and watch the country flat line for another ten years.

Every if and but in your post can be worked around. Trade and logistics wax and wane all the time given the will to do so, which you obviously lack and want to talk down.

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That is so unfair. Magical thinking won't sort Scotland's problems and questioning assertions is not the same as talking Scotland down. You appear to be arguing for a deal that wouldn't address Scotland's issues and crucially neither the EU or UKG have expressed any interest in. It's the equivalent of my campaign for a date with Beyonce.

FWIW I believe that the NI deal is a strong signal the repairing of relationships with the EU has started. This has required a shift in position and attitude from the EU and UKG. That can only be a positive. Given how the red carpet was rolled out for UVDL it appears to be more than just this deal. I firmly believe that this will be the start of further deals, both under the Tories and, if elected, Labour. I'm sure you will welcome this too.

[archie]

I know that activists try, as they should, to find current issues that can give traction to their cause. But the NI deal has been a strange one.

The reaction is akin to:
-'My next door neighbour got a hip replacement- I want one'.
-'But you don't have a dodgy hip - you have a broken arm?
-'Why don't you want me to run faster'
-'It won't sort your problem and could make it worse'
- 'It will solve it - just because'
- 'Have you thought about how it might work'?
- 'Why are you talking me down'?

[grunt]

I know that activists try, as they should, to find current issues that can give traction to their cause. But the NI deal has been a strange one.
I simply don't understand your seeming blindness on this issue. NI has access to the EU; we don't. That confers a competitive advantage in trade and investment. That's all there is to say. All the rest is noise.

[James310]

I know that activists try, as they should, to find current issues that can give traction to their cause. But the NI deal has been a strange one.

The reaction is akin to:
-'My next door neighbour got a hip replacement- I want one'.
-'But you don't have a dodgy hip - you have a broken arm?
-'Why don't you want me to run faster'
-'It won't sort your problem and could make it worse'
- 'It will solve it - just because'
- 'Have you thought about how it might work'?
- 'Why are you talking me down'?

The talking down trope was used regularly by the Brexiteers and Nigel Farage, it's normally a sign you have run out of logical arguments.

[archie]

I simply don't understand your seeming blindness on this issue. NI has access to the EU; we don't. That confers a competitive advantage in trade and investment. That's all there is to say. All the rest is noise.

It's not blindness to be grounded in the real world. You are calling me out for pointing out that the NI deal has arisen from very specific and tragic circumstances. To be blunt the EU and UKG don't want to be party to the unravelling of a peace deal that has largely secured peace. In addition, an EU member has a land border with NI. The border arrangements are part of the peace deal. That is the imperative for the deal.

None of that applies to Scotland. You are giving me a hard time about not supporting a deal that none of the people who could make that deal have expressed any interest in whatsoever. It's just not on the table.

You have no idea if it would make Scotland better off and you wilfully ignore all of the issues that the approach would bring. It really is an idea that doesn't stand up to serious examination at all.

The solution is to develop better relations between the EU and the UK. Norway isn't in the EU, but has productive relationships. Same with Switzerland. I believe that this is the policy direction that the EU and UKG will take in years to come.

[Ozyhibby]

Can’t be done because we have no boats? Fair enough. I’ll let it go now.[emoji849]


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[archie]

Can’t be done because we have no boats? Fair enough. I’ll let it go now.[emoji849]


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I highlighted a number of issues. You have chosen to focus on the no direct shipping issues. OK let's follow that through. How would you address the lack of a direct shipping route to Europe?

[Ozyhibby]

I highlighted a number of issues. You have chosen to focus on the no direct shipping issues. OK let's follow that through. How would you address the lack of a direct shipping route to Europe?

https://www.thelocal.fr/20210214/after-brexit-france-and-ireland/


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[archie]

https://www.thelocal.fr/20210214/after-brexit-france-and-ireland/


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That's Ireland and France.

[Ozyhibby]

That's Ireland and France.

And it’s lucky Ireland doesn’t have the attitude you want for Scotland. They didn’t run direct shipping to Europe before brexit and now they do. That’s how you fix problems.


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[archie]

And it’s lucky Ireland doesn’t have the attitude you want for Scotland. They didn’t run direct shipping to Europe before brexit and now they do. That’s how you fix problems.


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But how do you fix it for Scotland? Not soundbites. How do get a sustainable direct freight service from Scotland to Europe. Bearing in mind the the previous two attempts failed. What would you propose?

[Ozyhibby]

But how do you fix it for Scotland? Not soundbites. How do get a sustainable direct freight service from Scotland to Europe. Bearing in mind the the previous two attempts failed. What would you propose?

I would say they failed because it was easier to drive to Dover at that time. If Scotland offers a route to Europe for cargo that does not require the same paperwork that Dover does then that might well change things?


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[archie]

I would say they failed because it was easier to drive to Dover at that time. If Scotland offers a route to Europe for cargo that does not require the same paperwork that Dover does then that might well change things?


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I'm all for reaching for the stars, but surely there has to be more than a vague 'might'. I would very much like there to be such a route. Here's a discussion from the local paper that goes through the issues. https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/2788950/rosyth-europe-ferry-link/

[Ozyhibby]

I'm all for reaching for the stars, but surely there has to be more than a vague 'might'. I would very much like there to be such a route. Here's a discussion from the local paper that goes through the issues. https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/2788950/rosyth-europe-ferry-link/

I’m wasting my time. If you don’t think that being in the SM will benefit Scotland then fair enough.


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[degenerated]

I’m wasting my time. If you don’t think that being in the SM will benefit Scotland then fair enough.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'm surprised it's taken you this long to realise. :greengrin

Difficult to ignore but well worth the effort

[archie]

I’m wasting my time. If you don’t think that being in the SM will benefit Scotland then fair enough.


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Where have I said that?

[Stairway 2 7]

Joanna Cherry asks why Scotland can't have the same deal as NI at Westminster

https://mobile.twitter.com/HolyroodDaily/status/1630911504634503175

[J-C]

I'm surprised it's taken you this long to realise. :greengrin

Difficult to ignore but well worth the effort

Just grinds you down till you submit.

[Zambernardi1875]

I’m wasting my time. If you don’t think that being in the SM will benefit Scotland then fair enough.


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A total waste of time. Due a medal for surviving so long

[Ozyhibby]

Joanna Cherry asks why Scotland can't have the same deal as NI at Westminster

https://mobile.twitter.com/HolyroodDaily/status/1630911504634503175

Good. Flynn did the same. This is where I would like to see the SNP focus for now. Refusal of something afforded to other parts of the UK will be very difficult to sustain.


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[James310]

Good. Flynn did the same. This is where I would like to see the SNP focus for now. Refusal of something afforded to other parts of the UK will be very difficult to sustain.


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Prediction it will. Most reasonable people see why NI has the deal it has.

Brexit was seen by 8% of Scot's as being in the top 3 priorities for the Scottish Government, so 92% think it isn't.

If the SNP have learned anything the last few weeks it's going over the same old arguments isn't working.

I voted Remain and I wish we were still in the EU but I also want to move on and stop looking back.

[Zambernardi1875]

Good. Flynn did the same. This is where I would like to see the SNP focus for now. Refusal of something afforded to other parts of the UK will be very difficult to sustain.


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I’ve not read any papers but surely it’s something the Scottish press are highlighting?

[grunt]

Most reasonable people see why NI has the deal it has.
Help me out here by explaining, please?

[James310]

Help me out here by explaining, please?

The troubles.

[Just Alf]

The troubles.That infers that violence is a good way to get what you want?

[grunt]

You have no idea if it would make Scotland better off and you wilfully ignore all of the issues that the approach would bring. It really is an idea that doesn't stand up to serious examination at all.
Oh really? This will be my last reply to you.

It is self evident that being in the SM (and the CU if that was on offer) would make Scotland better off. The Government's own OBR has said that being out of the EU would reduce the long-run productivity of the UK by around 4 per cent. https://obr.uk/box/impact-of-the-brexit-trade-agreement-on-our-economy-forecast/

When asked this morning what she would say to GB businesses asking why they can't have the same access to the EU market as those in NI, head Brexiter Andrea Loathsome replied, "Invest in Northern Ireland". https://twitter.com/JibbaJabb/status/1630914094696919041?s=20

[Ozyhibby]

That infers that violence is a good way to get what you want?

Been hearing that a lot from unionists recently. Let’s hope that nobody is listening and we keep pushing through democratic means.


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[grunt]

The troubles.So the UK Government has given way to domestic terrorists?

[weecounty hibby]

The troubles.

Absolutely terrible way of telling Scotland they aren't allowed what NI has. So you reward violence and are using that to stop Scotland getting a better deal.

[James310]

Absolutely terrible way of telling Scotland they aren't allowed what NI has. So you reward violence and are using that to stop Scotland getting a better deal.

So why do you think NI has the deal it has?

[Zambernardi1875]

So when Scotland becomes independent and in the EU, the rest of uk will get a special deal to stop hard borders and checks?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64813201?at_link_origin=BBCScotlandNews&at_bbc_team=editorial&at_link_id=9B7DDBF0-B83B-11ED-A14C-6B353AE5AB7B&at_format=link&at_campaign=Social_Flow&at_medium=social&at_link_type=web_link&at_campaign_type=owned&at_ptr_name=twitter


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[archie]

I'm surprised it's taken you this long to realise. :greengrin

Difficult to ignore but well worth the effort

So no refutation of the points raised?

[archie]

So the UK Government has given way to domestic terrorists?

The UK Government, the Irish Government and the EU have worked together over a number of years to bring peace to Northern Ireland. Whether you see it as armed struggle or domestic terrorism is neither here nor there. The most recent deal has reinforced the path of peace. In the real world this would be seen as a good thing.

[archie]

So when Scotland becomes independent and in the EU, the rest of uk will get a special deal to stop hard borders and checks?

If that happens I assume the border with rUK would be the source of much negotiation. From a people perspective you would want as little as possible on the border. But the EU is pretty strict about managing trade from outwith the single market, so a lot would be down to them,

[archie]

Absolutely terrible way of telling Scotland they aren't allowed what NI has. So you reward violence and are using that to stop Scotland getting a better deal.

Bizarre take. I can't believe you really mean that.

[archie]

Just grinds you down till you submit.

Bizarre take. It's not WWE. Appears to me to be a severe lack of confidence in the argument that you can't even attempt to refute the points. You're under no obligation to respond to me or anyone, but sniping from the sidelines?

[Zambernardi1875]

If that happens I assume the border with rUK would be the source of much negotiation. From a people perspective you would want as little as possible on the border. But the EU is pretty strict about managing trade from outwith the single market, so a lot would be down to them,

England and wales would be NI and Scotland would be Ireland so it’s proven to be quite easy to negotiate

[archie]

England and wales would be NI and Scotland would be Ireland so it’s proven to be quite easy to negotiate

I don't understand this?

[Zambernardi1875]

I don't understand this?

Why

[archie]

Why

Maybe because I'm no very bright?

[James310]

England and wales would be NI and Scotland would be Ireland so it’s proven to be quite easy to negotiate

"Quite easy"....that's some take on the last 6 years.

[Zambernardi1875]

"Quite easy"....that's some take on the last 6 years.

Puts to bed the hard border fearmomgering from the unionists. The deal actually puts independence closer.

[archie]

England and wales would be NI and Scotland would be Ireland so it’s proven to be quite easy to negotiate

OK. I see it now. I suspect there would be a willingness to do a deal. But in any event, this would be many years away, if at all.

[archie]

Puts to bed the hard border fearmomgering from the unionists. The deal actually puts independence closer.

Except nobody is going to put an easy deal front and centre in advance. Secondly, Scotland wouldn't be in the EU at the time of independence so EU views would be irrelevant.

[James310]

Puts to bed the hard border fearmomgering from the unionists. The deal actually puts independence closer.

I thought the last deal put Independence closer?

[archie]

England and wales would be NI and Scotland would be Ireland so it’s proven to be quite easy to negotiate

The more I think about it by the time any of this became an issue I think we would have arrangements in place with the EU. Which would beg the question as to whether Scotland would want to join.

[weecounty hibby]

Bizarre take. I can't believe you really mean that.

Don't know what you mean? NI has a deal that is better than Scotlands. We are being told that it's because NI is different because of the past violence. So by extension the use of violence in the past has been rewarded but because Scotland hasn't been in that place we dont get a special deal.

[Ozyhibby]

Don't know what you mean? NI has a deal that is better than Scotlands. We are being told that it's because NI is different because of the past violence. So by extension the use of violence in the past has been rewarded but because Scotland hasn't been in that place we dont get a special deal.

I wouldn’t waste your time. No matter what the issue, Scotland just can’t do it.


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[archie]

Don't know what you mean? NI has a deal that is better than Scotlands. We are being told that it's because NI is different because of the past violence. So by extension the use of violence in the past has been rewarded but because Scotland hasn't been in that place we dont get a special deal.

It's different because of past violence, a peace process that involved both governments, concerns about undoing the peace process and practical issues that meant some goods from GB couldn't be sold in NI. As a result the EU ( supporting a member state) engaged with UKG to reach a deal. By your reckoning they shouldn't have done that because of the troubles as it 'rewarded violence'. I'm glad you weren't doing any of the negotiating.

Turning to your point about Scotland. Has the EU ever offered a deal for Scotland?

[archie]

I wouldn’t waste your time. No matter what the issue, Scotland just can’t do it.


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Don't be silly.

[James310]

Don't be silly.

Seems everyone who has a different opinion is a troll and wasting peoples time. 🤣

[James310]

Don't know what you mean? NI has a deal that is better than Scotlands. We are being told that it's because NI is different because of the past violence. So by extension the use of violence in the past has been rewarded but because Scotland hasn't been in that place we dont get a special deal.

So why do you think NI has a special deal?

[Moulin Yarns]

Taking the fact that NI is now at an advantage over the rest of the UK, surely a simple solution would be for all goods to NI going from Stranraer and Cairnryan to Belfast and Larne while all goods destined for the Republic of Ireland goes through holyhead and Liverpool? Green route = Scotland, Red Route =England and Wales.

[archie]

Taking the fact that NI is now at an advantage over the rest of the UK, surely a simple solution would be for all goods to NI going from Stranraer and Cairnryan to Belfast and Larne while all goods destined for the Republic of Ireland goes through holyhead and Liverpool? Green route = Scotland, Red Route =England and Wales.
Wouldn't that mean goods from Dumfries for Donegal would have to go through Liverpool or Wales?

[Moulin Yarns]

Wouldn't that mean goods from Dumfries for Donegal would have to go through Liverpool or Wales?

Yep! And goods from Cardiff, Liverpool, Plymouth. If you want to trade with an EU country like the Republic of Ireland then you do so directly, across the border in the Irish Sea. If you are trading with Northern Ireland you do so directly across the North channel between Galloway and Northern Ireland.

Just a simple red and green route option, otherwise you have to prove that you're not going to send things from NI to the Republic.

No need for checks at scottish ports!

[He's here!]

It's not blindness to be grounded in the real world. You are calling me out for pointing out that the NI deal has arisen from very specific and tragic circumstances. To be blunt the EU and UKG don't want to be party to the unravelling of a peace deal that has largely secured peace. In addition, an EU member has a land border with NI. The border arrangements are part of the peace deal. That is the imperative for the deal.

None of that applies to Scotland. You are giving me a hard time about not supporting a deal that none of the people who could make that deal have expressed any interest in whatsoever. It's just not on the table.

You have no idea if it would make Scotland better off and you wilfully ignore all of the issues that the approach would bring. It really is an idea that doesn't stand up to serious examination at all.

The solution is to develop better relations between the EU and the UK. Norway isn't in the EU, but has productive relationships. Same with Switzerland. I believe that this is the policy direction that the EU and UKG will take in years to come.

Good post.