Scottish Independence

[Steven79]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/figures-reveal-eye-watering-cost-of-mitigating-westminster-policies

Union dividend?


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Definately better together! :confused:

[Colr]

While being further along the road to carbon neutrality will be a bonus, we will still be in a global energy market. We won’t cut ourselves off from the uk grid.


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One other issue is that the gas doesn’t belong to the country but to the private companies that extract it which is why, at a time when our own gas supply could mitigate against external price pressures we are actually exporting MORE gas as it makes a higher profit.

Nevertheless, it does not seem to be clear in published stats how far we are from being self dependent in gas if we had a nationalised gas company. I just can’t find the stats

[James310]

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1487126326192402437?t=nIs4p4Z3GJIvDnFyJGyJpg&s=19

Absolute game changer, that's made me change my mind. But what do Weezer think?

[Crunchie]

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1487126326192402437?t=nIs4p4Z3GJIvDnFyJGyJpg&s=19

Absolute game changer, that's made me change my mind. But what do Weezer think?
:faf::faf: He'll get an invite to Bute house soon.

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1487126326192402437?t=nIs4p4Z3GJIvDnFyJGyJpg&s=19

Absolute game changer, that's made me change my mind. But what do Weezer think?show A Little Respect.

[emoji6]

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[WeeRussell]

That is fair although with the Union we at least know how it operates right now. With independence we don’t know and can only make assumptions.

So if independence is to be gained then a strong case needs to be put forward. However for the Union to counteract that a positive case also needs made

Your first sentence will be enough for some (including me) and has been for some time.

I get the feeling you will be the opposite in that the case for independence will never be enough.

[Skol]

Your first sentence will be enough for some (including me) and has been for some time.

I get the feeling you will be the opposite in that the case for independence will never be enough.

I am open minded enough to read and consider what is put forward. In the absence of anything though it is not possible to make that judgement. To many significant unknowns.

I know some people who say they accept the unknowns and want independence regardless of the impact. I respect that and their honesty

I don’t understand the people who brush over the unknowns and believe it will all be fine. That approach got us brexit

[Crunchie]

I am open minded enough to read and consider what is put forward. In the absence of anything though it is not possible to make that judgement. To many significant unknowns.

I know some people who say they accept the unknowns and want independence regardless of the impact. I respect that and their honesty

I don’t understand the people who brush over the unknowns and believe it will all be fine. That approach got us brexit
:top marks It's a gamble that's for sure, especially with the likes of Swinney who blunders his way from one high position to another with the approval of our leader.

[McD]

Asked this elsewhere but how far away is scotland from being self-reliant for its gas supply?

We’re 97% self reliant in renewable (i.e. low cost) electricity and, adding nuclear, are not exporters of non-carbon electricity but what about gas? As we reduce our reliance on gas what is the trajectory to become self reliant. There’s a pro independence argument there as out current high fuel costs are linked to being part of a UK market overseen by a government which has failed to plan.


are renewables low cost? I thought renewable energy was actually quite expensive to set up and maintain?

not having a dig, I’m genuinely curious

[StevieC]

I am open minded enough to read and consider what is put forward. In the absence of anything though it is not possible to make that judgement. To many significant unknowns.

I know some people who say they accept the unknowns and want independence regardless of the impact. I respect that and their honesty

I don’t understand the people who brush over the unknowns and believe it will all be fine. That approach got us brexit

For me it’s fairly simple .. what we have just now isn’t working for us .. and it’s not going to change.

Yes, there are obviously lots of unknowns .. some of which nobody could provide definitive answers to. However, there are sufficient positives to be certain that we could quite easily survive, and with a clean slate and the right people in charge there is every chance we could prosper.

I don’t view that as a gamble, but a natural progression.

[Crunchie]

For me it’s fairly simple .. what we have just now isn’t working for us .. and it’s not going to change.

Yes, there are obviously lots of unknowns .. some of which nobody could provide definitive answers to. However, there are sufficient positives to be certain that we could quite easily survive, and with a clean slate and the right people in charge there is every chance we could prosper.

I don’t view that as a gamble, but a natural progression.
What isn't working though? and isn't that down to the SNP government we've had in charge now way long enough to make significant change. Instead their latest gimmick is to give free travel to the under 25's who they see as their core support.

[Moulin Yarns]

What isn't working though? and isn't that down to the SNP government we've had in charge now way long enough to make significant change. Instead their latest gimmick is to give free travel to the under 25's who they see as their core support.

I'll just mention one, the reversal, by the UK government, in the Universal Credit uplift. There was absolutely nothing to be gained from it and the Scottish government has stepped in to fill the gap, not just on UC but other things that should be done by the UK government, but isn't.

[Crunchie]

I'll just mention one, the reversal, by the UK government, in the Universal Credit uplift. There was absolutely nothing to be gained from it and the Scottish government has stepped in to fill the gap, not just on UC but other things that should be done by the UK government, but isn't.
There are people out there like me who don't believe the party they vote for can do no wrong, and then you have your typical NAT who thinks the opposite, you fall into the latter category imo.

[Ozyhibby]

are renewables low cost? I thought renewable energy was actually quite expensive to set up and maintain?

not having a dig, I’m genuinely curious

I’m pretty sure wind energy is now the cheapest form of electricity now.


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[Moulin Yarns]

There are people out there like me who don't believe the party they vote for can do no wrong, and then you have your typical NAT who thinks the opposite, you fall into the latter category imo.

Snp is not my first choice, if you have been paying attention 😉


But I'm right on UC

[The Modfather]

There are people out there like me who don't believe the party they vote for can do no wrong, and then you have your typical NAT who thinks the opposite, you fall into the latter category imo.

You asked for an example but then played man not ball instead. A good debate was beginning to develop let’s not end up in the inevitable petty bickering.

[Crunchie]

You asked for an example but then played man not ball instead. A good debate was beginning to develop let’s not end up in the inevitable petty bickering.
Point taken :aok:

[grunt]

What isn't working though? and isn't that down to the SNP government we've had in charge now way long enough to make significant change. Instead their latest gimmick is to give free travel to the under 25's who they see as their core support.What isn't working? How about the fact that for the last 50 odd years we've been governed by a party we didn't vote for? How is that in any way democratic?

[Moulin Yarns]

What isn't working? How about the fact that for the last 50 odd years we've been governed by a party we didn't vote for? How is that in any way democratic?

Just wait for the argument from someone who voted Labour in the holyrood elections claim that they didn't get the government they voted for! 🤔

[Crunchie]

What isn't working? How about the fact that for the last 50 odd years we've been governed by a party we didn't vote for? How is that in any way democratic?
A petty argument I once voiced but with no validity, we're part of the United Kingdom and are governed as such.

[grunt]

A petty argument I once voiced but with no validity, we're part of the United Kingdom and are governed as such.Well thank you for you informed reply. Don't waste your time replying to this post.

[Callum_62]

A petty argument I once voiced but with no validity, we're part of the United Kingdom and are governed as such.Which is a massive tick for indy for some im sure

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[StevieC]

A petty argument I once voiced but with no validity, we're part of the United Kingdom and are governed as such.

You replied to my post saying that things weren’t working because of the SNP government. Less than 5 posts later you are stating we are governed by the UK.

Flip flop flip flop.

Free travel for U25 - are you really in shock that political party implements policy that benefits a core section of its voters? Would it also shock you to hear that the Tories implement policies that benefit the richer sections of society?

I’m not keen on the word “trolling” but I am starting to see why some posters have used it with regards to some of your posts.

[degenerated]

I am open minded enough to read and consider what is put forward. In the absence of anything though it is not possible to make that judgement. To many significant unknowns.

I know some people who say they accept the unknowns and want independence regardless of the impact. I respect that and their honesty

I don’t understand the people who brush over the unknowns and believe it will all be fine. That approach got us brexitIsn't it the opposite that delivered us Brexit? The perceived unknowns of independence were rejected and Scotland decided to stick with the known, which is why we are where we are.

[WeeRussell]

You replied to my post saying that things weren’t working because of the SNP government. Less than 5 posts later you are stating we are governed by the UK.

Flip flop flip flop.

Free travel for U25 - are you really in shock that political party implements policy that benefits a core section of its voters? Would it also shock you to hear that the Tories implement policies that benefit the richer sections of society?

I’m not keen on the word “trolling” but I am starting to see why some posters have used it with regards to some of your posts.

Hopefully I’m not breaking rules or having my post deleted this time for pointing out that it’s quite clear this is what Crunchie does - pulled up when blatantly caught-out, will ignore it, and come back with another irrelevant and/or outlandish claim shortly.

Claiming a wardrobe of previous purchased badges and t-shirts and pretending to have argued the opposite in yesteryear only makes the carry-on more ridiculous.

[Crunchie]

You replied to my post saying that things weren’t working because of the SNP government. Less than 5 posts later you are stating we are governed by the UK.

Flip flop flip flop.

Free travel for U25 - are you really in shock that political party implements policy that benefits a core section of its voters? Would it also shock you to hear that the Tories implement policies that benefit the richer sections of society?

I’m not keen on the word “trolling” but I am starting to see why some posters have used it with regards to some of your posts.
I 'm not a troll, I'm just not as good at getting my point across as some. I got called a liar that much when I tried to engage in debate I gave up.
You said yourself you came across SNP supporters such as myself who left because of the brexit stance the party took, we don't exist according to most on here.

[Skol]

Isn't it the opposite that delivered us Brexit? The perceived unknowns of independence were rejected and Scotland decided to stick with the known, which is why we are where we are.

That doesn’t make sense. We got Brexit because we rejected independence. Had we voted yes we in 14 we would have had scexit long before Brexit

My point was when we had the Brexit vote people believed the obfuscation and voted for something that was clearly a bad idea.

[Moulin Yarns]

That doesn’t make sense. We got Brexit because we rejected independence. Had we voted yes we in 14 we would have had scexit long before Brexit

My point was when we had the Brexit vote people believed the obfuscation and voted for something that was clearly a bad idea.

Scexit?

There were only 2 years between indyref and Brexit votes. I don't think Scotland would have been totally divorced from rUK by 2016. Or does Scexit refer to the position of Scotland within the EU? I've no idea.

[Skol]

Scexit?

There were only 2 years between indyref and Brexit votes. I don't think Scotland would have been totally divorced from rUK by 2016. Or does Scexit refer to the position of Scotland within the EU? I've no idea.

If Scotland voted yes in 2014 it’s unlikely Cameron would have had the balls to hold a brexit referendum. His success in 2014 gave him the confidence thinking he could lance another boil. We don’t know what the timetable after a yes vote would have been but we do know that Scotland would have been out of both the uk and the eu if we had voted yes.

[Ozyhibby]

If Scotland voted yes in 2014 it’s unlikely Cameron would have had the balls to hold a brexit referendum. His success in 2014 gave him the confidence thinking he could lance another boil. We don’t know what the timetable after a yes vote would have been but we do know that Scotland would have been out of both the uk and the eu if we had voted yes.

I think we would have been back in the EU by now and almost certainly would still be in the single market and customs union.


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[StevieC]

I 'm not a troll, I'm just not as good at getting my point across as some. I got called a liar that much when I tried to engage in debate I gave up.
You said yourself you came across SNP supporters such as myself who left because of the brexit stance the party took, we don't exist according to most on here.

It’s not that you can’t get your point across, it’s more like your posts are more designed to be controversial than debating.
When I said things weren’t working you said it was because of the Scottish government, and then a few posts later you said a posters comments weren’t valid because we were governed by a UK government. Which is it?
My guess is you won’t answer because if you actually started debating, rather than just flip flopping with statements, you might find it harder to get the sort of responses you seem to thrive on.
I hope I’m wrong.

[grunt]

If Scotland voted yes in 2014 it’s unlikely Cameron would have had the balls to hold a brexit referendum. His success in 2014 gave him the confidence thinking he could lance another boil. We don’t know what the timetable after a yes vote would have been but we do know that Scotland would have been out of both the uk and the eu if we had voted yes.
I don't think we know that at all.

[Crunchie]

It’s not that you can’t get your point across, it’s more like your posts are more designed to be controversial than debating.
When I said things weren’t working you said it was because of the Scottish government, and then a few posts later you said a posters comments weren’t valid because we were governed by a UK government. Which is it?
My guess is you won’t answer because if you actually started debating, rather than just flip flopping with statements, you might find it harder to get the sort of responses you seem to thrive on.
I hope I’m wrong.
I didn't think I had said it was because of the Scottish govt, I actually think things are working and if things aren't then the finger of blame can be pointed in one direction only.
I tried debating a while back but it was impossible, as others have said when you go against the grain on here you get hit from all angles. WTC I think was the latest to have a go and he felt shouted down, I won't be trying again :aok:

[Bristolhibby]

One other issue is that the gas doesn’t belong to the country but to the private companies that extract it which is why, at a time when our own gas supply could mitigate against external price pressures we are actually exporting MORE gas as it makes a higher profit.

Nevertheless, it does not seem to be clear in published stats how far we are from being self dependent in gas if we had a nationalised gas company. I just can’t find the stats

You can change the law to alter that stance. Declare it a strategic asset and be clear to the market that x % must be sold to the U.K. (or independent Scotland).

If there’s money to be made people will deliver, just slightly less than exporting.

J

[StevieC]

I actually think things are working and if things aren't then the finger of blame can be pointed in one direction only.

I'm assuming you are pointing the finger at the Scottish government?
And that's the contradictory aspect, as you stated recently (to make a point) that we are governed by the UK.

So, in conclusion, what you are saying is that things are working and that no finger of blame is needed (as far as you are concerned) and it is the work of the Scottish government that we have to thank for that?

[Hibrandenburg]

If Scotland voted yes in 2014 it’s unlikely Cameron would have had the balls to hold a brexit referendum. His success in 2014 gave him the confidence thinking he could lance another boil. We don’t know what the timetable after a yes vote would have been but we do know that Scotland would have been out of both the uk and the eu if we had voted yes.

We know nothing of the sort.

[Skol]

Not sure how reliable this site is but it suggests we did know

https://www.herbertsmithfreehills.com/latest-thinking/scottish-independence-and-eu-membership-process-and-implications

My view at the time was that we knew this but the SNP didn’t want to admit that was the case.

[James310]

Not sure how reliable this site is but it suggests we did know

https://www.herbertsmithfreehills.com/latest-thinking/scottish-independence-and-eu-membership-process-and-implications

My view at the time was that we knew this but the SNP didn’t want to admit that was the case.

The EU stance was laid out in this letter.

https://archive2021.parliament.scot/S4_EuropeanandExternalRelationsCommittee/Inquiries/Letter_from_Viviane_Reding_Vice_President_of_the_E uropean_Commission_dated_20_March_2014__pdf.pdf

The European Union has been established by the relevant treaties among the Member
States. The Commission, as the guardian of those treaties, is responsible for overseeing their
implementation, including the implementation of provisions related to the accession of any
European State to the Union.
The Commission's position on the issue that you raise has been stated on a number of
occasions since 20041
. The Treaties apply to the Member States. When part of the territory
of a Member State ceases to be a part of that State, e.g. because that territory becomes an
independent state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory. In other words, a new
independent region would, by the fact of its independence, become a third country with
respect to the Union and the Treaties would, from the day of its independence, not apply
anymore on its territory.
Under Article 49 of the Treaty on European Union, any European state which respects the
principles set out in Article 2 of the Treaty on European Union may apply to become a
member of the EU. If the application is accepted by the Council acting unanimously after
consulting the Commission and after receiving the consent of the European Parliament, an
agreement is then negotiated between the applicant state and the Member States on the
conditions of admission and the adjustments to the Treaties which such admission entails.
This agreement is subject to ratification by all Member States and the applicant state.

[Kato]

If Scotland voted yes in 2014 it’s unlikely Cameron would have had the balls to hold a brexit referendum. His success in 2014 gave him the confidence thinking he could lance another boil. We don’t know what the timetable after a yes vote would have been but we do know that Scotland would have been out of both the uk and the eu if we had voted yes.

Cameron committed to a brexit referendum in 2011 or so.

[StevieC]

Cameron committed to a brexit referendum in 2011 or so.

It was actually in the Conservative manifesto as early as 2005 (and again in 2010). When Cameron came to power he committed to holding it by 2015.

To say Cameron went ahead with it because of the Scottish referendum result is fanciful at best.

[JeMeSouviens]

Not sure how reliable this site is but it suggests we did know

https://www.herbertsmithfreehills.com/latest-thinking/scottish-independence-and-eu-membership-process-and-implications

My view at the time was that we knew this but the SNP didn’t want to admit that was the case.

I think the true position is probably somewhere in the middle. The EU has rules but is pretty good at bending them if it believes its member states benefit, eg. the expansion of Germany following absorption of the GDR, the extended transition period for the UK while Brexiting. I doubt Scotland would have continued uninterrupted as a full member state. However, I do believe a way would have been found to keep Scotland inside the single market and customs union for a transition period until full accession. I think that's what will happen when we do get Indy unless the Scottish government adopts a SM-but-no-CU approach (a la Norway/Switzerland) to soften the border with rUK. I think that would be a mistake, I think full EU membership should be a non-negotiable aim.

[JeMeSouviens]

It was actually in the Conservative manifesto as early as 2005 (and again in 2010). When Cameron came to power he committed to holding it by 2015.

To say Cameron went ahead with it because of the Scottish referendum result is fanciful at best.

If Cameron had lost the Indyref he'd have been out on his ear pronto.

[grunt]

I think the true position is probably somewhere in the middle. The EU has rules but is pretty good at bending them if it believes its member states benefit, eg. the expansion of Germany following absorption of the GDR, the extended transition period for the UK while Brexiting. I doubt Scotland would have continued uninterrupted as a full member state. However, I do believe a way would have been found to keep Scotland inside the single market and customs union for a transition period until full accession. I think that's what will happen when we do get Indy unless the Scottish government adopts a SM-but-no-CU approach (a la Norway/Switzerland) to soften the border with rUK. I think that would be a mistake, I think full EU membership should be a non-negotiable aim.
I agree.

[StevieC]

If Cameron had lost the Indyref he'd have been out on his ear pronto.

I'm pretty sure you are correct.

And with another pro-EU voice out of the way I doubt very much that it would have delayed/stopped the EU referendum.

[Ozyhibby]

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Borders-Report-Final.pdf

Interesting read on the problems and opportunities of Indy border arrangements.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://youtu.be/jqgHXlrE8Ww

Small clip of a David McWilliams interview going live tomorrow for those interested.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1491440240158199813?s=21

Devolved govts getting shafted again?


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[degenerated]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1491440240158199813?s=21

Devolved govts getting shafted again?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt's not all bad news though as every primary school child in Scotland and Wales will be getting a patriotic book to help them develop "a collective understanding" of the queen's reign and other landmark achievements such as Margaret Thatcher becoming prime minister.

[ronaldo7]

It's not all bad news though as every primary school child in Scotland and Wales will be getting a patriotic book to help them develop "a collective understanding" of the queen's reign and other landmark achievements such as Margaret Thatcher becoming prime minister.

At a cost of £12 million. Scotland's share will be added to our gers numbers, courtesy of London.

Bow down and respect. 🎩

[JimBHibees]

It's not all bad news though as every primary school child in Scotland and Wales will be getting a patriotic book to help them develop "a collective understanding" of the queen's reign and other landmark achievements such as Margaret Thatcher becoming prime minister.

Getting more and more like 30s Germany by the day

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1491775956746489860?t=z0t5YrJyP-EH_UW7QxgbIw&s=19

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1491775956746489860?t=z0t5YrJyP-EH_UW7QxgbIw&s=19

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He does seem keaner on self determination for Ukraine than he is for Scotland. Will be interesting to see if he backs it up with actions and proper sanctions when they invade.


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[James310]

This place has its moments, but comparing the potential invasion of Ukraine where thousands of innocent people might die to the desire for Scottish Independence is a new one. I know I am in the minority though!

[Glory Lurker]

This place has its moments, but comparing the potential invasion of Ukraine where thousands of innocent people might die to the desire for Scottish Independence is a new one. I know I am in the minority though!

I don't think that's what Ozy's doing at all.

[James310]

I don't think that's what Ozy's doing at all.

I may have the wrong end of the stick, apologies if that was not the intention.

[Ozyhibby]

This place has its moments, but comparing the potential invasion of Ukraine where thousands of innocent people might die to the desire for Scottish Independence is a new one. I know I am in the minority though!

Not my intention at all. This is a crisis for all of Europe.
Uk is uniquely placed to really hurt the Russians if we start to freeze all the assets they hold here though. Let’s see if we are capable of giving up all the cash our banks make on it though.


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[Santa Cruz]

Not my intention at all. This is a crisis for all of Europe.
Uk is uniquely placed to really hurt the Russians if we start to freeze all the assets they hold here though. Let’s see if we are capable of giving up all the cash our banks make on it though.


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Why's it on this thread? There's a thread on Ukraine.

[Ozyhibby]

Why's it on this thread? There's a thread on Ukraine.

I was responding to someone else’s post. I’ve posted on Ukraine thread.


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[Santa Cruz]

I was responding to someone else’s post. I’ve posted on Ukraine thread.


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OK, ta.

Maybe the OP you replied to can explain the comparison between the developing situation in Ukraine and Scottish Independence.

[WhileTheChief..]

I didn't think I had said it was because of the Scottish govt, I actually think things are working and if things aren't then the finger of blame can be pointed in one direction only.
I tried debating a while back but it was impossible, as others have said when you go against the grain on here you get hit from all angles. WTC I think was the latest to have a go and he felt shouted down, I won't be trying again :aok:

I didn’t feel shouted down, I just don’t feel this thread, or other similar ones, are really worth it. They’re too one sided for it to be anything other than a pile on, even a polite one!

FWIW I’m not worried about Indy at all. Not going to happen any time soon.

They’re no closer to it now than at any time in the past despite the supposed crisis we’re all in because of Boris. Deep down I don’t even think Sturgeon really wants the vote whilst she’s in office.

[Smartie]

OK, ta.

Maybe the OP you replied to can explain the comparison between the developing situation in Ukraine and Scottish Independence.

I think it’s a fair point tbh.

Obviously the 2 situations couldn’t be more different, but leaders need to choose their words wisely. Whilst Johnson struggles for credibility, I don’t think he necessarily helps himself using certain combinations of words when talking about Ukraine that might appear hypocritical closer to home.

[Callum_62]

"All people no matter where they are born have the right to live safely, chose who governs them and to decide what organisations they aspire to have membership of. Or indeed, what bodies they want to cease being members of.
We will not compromise on that principle"

We arnt talking about war here ofcourse but it does severely go against his parties view on the right of people who happen to be born/live in Scotland

Principle must not apply in the United Kingdom

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[Ozyhibby]

https://whatscotlandthinks.org/2022/02/how-voters-view-the-economics-of-independence/

Blog by John Curtice.


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[Hibrandenburg]

https://whatscotlandthinks.org/2022/02/how-voters-view-the-economics-of-independence/

Blog by John Curtice.


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Georg C. Lichtenberg

I cannot say whether things will get better if we change; what I can say is they must change if they are to get better.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/273930563_1881394162048227_3417692599231080668_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=C95Vj6l2_1IAX-Qi80o&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT9wIb58PYBL1eOPtlIwfvyAof7rIzz_to2Hk4fXg4hG Ag&oe=620F5D7B


:hilarious

[James310]

What happened to the journalist Neil MacKay, he seems to have taken a right dislike of the SNP for a pro Indy guy. Bringing out the Tartan Tory lines today.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19923021.neil-mackay-snp-now-just-tartan-tories-smiling-face/

"Support for the SNP among the left is as baffling as working class Red Wall voters offering themselves to Boris Johnson’s rapacious, feral incarnation of Conservativism."

[Ozyhibby]

What happened to the journalist Neil MacKay, he seems to have taken a right dislike of the SNP for a pro Indy guy. Bringing out the Tartan Tory lines today.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19923021.neil-mackay-snp-now-just-tartan-tories-smiling-face/

"Support for the SNP among the left is as baffling as working class Red Wall voters offering themselves to Boris Johnson’s rapacious, feral incarnation of Conservativism."

Never heard of him to be honest.


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[CropleyWasGod]

What happened to the journalist Neil MacKay, he seems to have taken a right dislike of the SNP for a pro Indy guy. Bringing out the Tartan Tory lines today.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19923021.neil-mackay-snp-now-just-tartan-tories-smiling-face/

"Support for the SNP among the left is as baffling as working class Red Wall voters offering themselves to Boris Johnson’s rapacious, feral incarnation of Conservativism."

Do you have the full article?

[James310]

Do you have the full article?

https://archive.is/WRiHJ

[CropleyWasGod]

https://archive.is/WRiHJ

Thanks.

I wouldn't have thought it a surprise that the SNP have some "right" policies (Council Tax freeze for one). That's what the SNP have tried to do over the last 20 years; have a range of policies that appeal across the spectrum.

[cabbageandribs1875]

25545


i said at the time the SG lifting the council tax freeze could be a huge own-goal, and here we have the West Lothian council ruling coalition of Red and Blue Tories increasing both council tax AND council house Rent by 3% each(yes, even with tough times coming), the council tax freeze was always a vote winner for poorer families imo, i know the SG are giving extra to councils(£1.5m i think?) but most voters won't know that, all they will see come council elections this year that the increase is all the Governments fault, Labour and Tories always play the independence card even though council elections have damn all to do with independence. i vaguely remember that 3% was the maximum percentage allowed, but worryingly if the Red and Blues were to get extra power for decision making in Scotland then that 3% will be a drop in the ocean.


apologies terrible screenshot

[Ozyhibby]

25545


i said at the time the SG lifting the council tax freeze could be a huge own-goal, and here we have the West Lothian council ruling coalition of Red and Blue Tories increasing both council tax AND council house Rent by 3% each(yes, even with tough times coming), the council tax freeze was always a vote winner for poorer families imo, i know the SG are giving extra to councils(£1.5m i think?) but most voters won't know that, all they will see come council elections this year that the increase is all the Governments fault, Labour and Tories always play the independence card even though council elections have damn all to do with independence. i vaguely remember that 3% was the maximum percentage allowed, but worryingly if the Red and Blues were to get extra power for decision making in Scotland then that 3% will be a drop in the ocean.


apologies terrible screenshot

SNP councils will not be raising council tax. Vote accordingly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://i.ibb.co/GWWQCF5/CT.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[cabbageandribs1875]

SNP councils will not be raising council tax. Vote accordingly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i am kinda hoping that come elections in may the voters in West Lothian will be aware that it's a Tory/labour coalition that run it, but i still think it was a big mistake to unfreeze council tax, now of course we have Salmond's pop-up indy party muddying the vote in council elections, their vote may be low but he will definitely take votes away from the SNP...and that can only lead to more Red and Blue coalitions

[Paul1642]

SNP councils will not be raising council tax. Vote accordingly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edinburgh is raising by 3%. I thought it was a SNP council?

[DaveF]

Edinburgh is raising by 3%. I thought it was a SNP council?

SNP/Lab

[cabbageandribs1875]

good work :agree: Scotland has Europe's best-educated population, according to Eurostat | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/19929798.scotland-europes-best-educated-population-according-eurostat/?fbclid=IwAR3RpEm9Mx1_ZPBLe7fwyBxC4m4nTUJpM1JJsvji hfxUvI5SZ7SGPR36T4w)

NEW research from EuroStat has revealed that Scotland has the best-educated population in Europe (https://www.thenational.scot/news/europe), in a blow to opposition parties.

According to the body, which is the statistical office of the European Union but also compiles data for non-EU states, Scotland has been number one for the percentage of 25-61-year-olds educated up to degree level for every year between 2011 and 2019 (the last year for which data is available”.

The SNP (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/snp/)’s Kaukab Stewart (below), who was a teacher before entering the Scottish Parliament, said the data shows the “startling improvement in education (https://www.thenational.scot/news/education) since the SNP came to office”.

She also said the figures “blow out of the water bogus claims made by opposition parties”, who often attack the Scottish Government on its education record.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dbb56cdc-8f39-11ec-9569-fea923928840?shareToken=69d9c4b4dd636e8d1bbc4f9f40 7ce9de


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[Crunchie]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dbb56cdc-8f39-11ec-9569-fea923928840?shareToken=69d9c4b4dd636e8d1bbc4f9f40 7ce9de


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Alex Cole Hamilton's quote at the end is bang on the money.

[grunt]

Alex Cole Hamilton's quote at the end is bang on the money.
:rolleyes:

[Callum_62]

Alex Cole Hamilton's quote at the end is bang on the money.[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

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[Ozyhibby]

Alex Cole Hamilton's quote at the end is bang on the money.

He should certainly be able to recognise abusive behaviour towards women.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dbb56cdc-8f39-11ec-9569-fea923928840?shareToken=69d9c4b4dd636e8d1bbc4f9f40 7ce9de


Can't make out whether she's talking about misogyny in the Dorries or Raab sense or what exactly. Complete mystery to me what she brought to the BBC or to journalism, so I'd be one of the misogynists who thought she was employed mainly because of who her father was.

[Moulin Yarns]

good work :agree: Scotland has Europe's best-educated population, according to Eurostat | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/19929798.scotland-europes-best-educated-population-according-eurostat/?fbclid=IwAR3RpEm9Mx1_ZPBLe7fwyBxC4m4nTUJpM1JJsvji hfxUvI5SZ7SGPR36T4w)

NEW research from EuroStat has revealed that Scotland has the best-educated population in Europe (https://www.thenational.scot/news/europe), in a blow to opposition parties.

According to the body, which is the statistical office of the European Union but also compiles data for non-EU states, Scotland has been number one for the percentage of 25-61-year-olds educated up to degree level for every year between 2011 and 2019 (the last year for which data is available”.

The SNP (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/snp/)’s Kaukab Stewart (below), who was a teacher before entering the Scottish Parliament, said the data shows the “startling improvement in education (https://www.thenational.scot/news/education) since the SNP came to office”.

She also said the figures “blow out of the water bogus claims made by opposition parties”, who often attack the Scottish Government on its education record.





All John swinney's fault 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

Alex Cole Hamilton's quote at the end is bang on the money.

Except for the mistake about the BBC only parroting unionist propaganda 😉

[ronaldo7]

He should certainly be able to recognise abusive behaviour towards women.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Openly abusing women on zoom calls is ok in Britnat land though.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

What an absolute tool the ACH is. That is all.

[ronaldo7]

good work :agree: Scotland has Europe's best-educated population, according to Eurostat | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/19929798.scotland-europes-best-educated-population-according-eurostat/?fbclid=IwAR3RpEm9Mx1_ZPBLe7fwyBxC4m4nTUJpM1JJsvji hfxUvI5SZ7SGPR36T4w)

NEW research from EuroStat has revealed that Scotland has the best-educated population in Europe (https://www.thenational.scot/news/europe), in a blow to opposition parties.

According to the body, which is the statistical office of the European Union but also compiles data for non-EU states, Scotland has been number one for the percentage of 25-61-year-olds educated up to degree level for every year between 2011 and 2019 (the last year for which data is available”.

The SNP (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/snp/)’s Kaukab Stewart (below), who was a teacher before entering the Scottish Parliament, said the data shows the “startling improvement in education (https://www.thenational.scot/news/education) since the SNP came to office”.

She also said the figures “blow out of the water bogus claims made by opposition parties”, who often attack the Scottish Government on its education record.





The too wee, and too poor arguments have been debunked, I suppose this settles the too stupid argument.

Indyref2 here we come.

[Betty Boop]

SNP councils will not be raising council tax. Vote accordingly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Aye get Mcvey and his cronies out.

[WeeRussell]

Alex Cole Hamilton's quote at the end is bang on the money.

And you wonder why you don’t get taken seriously on here…

[WhileTheChief..]

Anything you read in the National can be taken as gospel.

Anything you read anywhere else is to be treated as propaganda by the evil UK state.

[WeeRussell]

Anything you read in the National can be taken as gospel.

Anything you read anywhere else is to be treated as propaganda by the evil UK state.

Can you enlighten me? I've never, ever, read a page of 'The national'.. is it online as well as printed? Are there examples of people using it and taking its word as gospel on here that have inspired your comment? I ask because I genuinely only recall Union Jack champions like yourself referencing it by way of retort at any criticism linked to the union or westminster.

Regardless, your reply is a strange one. Is this your cryptic way of saying the comment about the BBC referenced by Crunchie was accurate, or were you just lashing out with a meaningless quip?

[Kato]

Anything you read in the National can be taken as gospel.

Anything you read anywhere else is to be treated as propaganda by the evil UK state.You would vote for Trump, a known liar.

You voted for Johnson who has lied in every job he has ever had.

Can't really take your assessment of how others approach the veracity of the press seriously.

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[WhileTheChief..]

You would vote for Trump, a known liar.

You voted for Johnson who has lied in every job he has ever had.

Can't really take your assessment of how others approach the veracity of the press seriously.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

And yet you reply to most of my posts.

Why?

Why not just ignore me?

[WhileTheChief..]

Can you enlighten me? I've never, ever, read a page of 'The national'.. is it online as well as printed? Are there examples of people using it and taking its word as gospel on here that have inspired your comment? I ask because I genuinely only recall Union Jack champions like yourself referencing it by way of retort at any criticism linked to the union or westminster.

Regardless, your reply is a strange one. Is this your cryptic way of saying the comment about the BBC referenced by Crunchie was accurate, or were you just lashing out with a meaningless quip?

You're pulling me for incorrectly naming the paper when it's clear what I was referring to?

Are you another one on here who only wants to read opinions from posters you agree with? Seems so.

[Kato]

And yet you reply to most of my posts.

Why?

Why not just ignore me?

I don't reply to most of your posts, not anywhere near.

That one was a doozy though, so what, exactly, is stopping me?

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[WhileTheChief..]

I don't reply to most of your posts, not anywhere near.

That one was a doozy though, so what, exactly, is stopping me?

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk


You've lost me. What is stopping you from doing what?

Why do you even want to engage with me ?

The Trump comment, you've made that point several times now as though you are trying to embarrass me or something. Why?

I've never insulted you, had a go at you, or called you out on anything.

Whenever I post in the Holy Ground you're not far behind with a dig, or a jibe.

Please stop it.

[ronaldo7]

Anything you read in the National can be taken as gospel.

Anything you read anywhere else is to be treated as propaganda by the evil UK state.

It looks like the starting gun has been fired by the No side in the lead up to the next referendum. Let's hope they've shot their bolt.

I'm sure you'll read many a column of propaganda in the next wee while, it's what you believe to be true which should reflect a countries view.

You're on the side of the money moguls, and spin machines,in the media. The known liars.

Happy with that?

[WeeRussell]

You're pulling me for incorrectly naming the paper when it's clear what I was referring to?

Are you another one on here who only wants to read opinions from posters you agree with? Seems so.

I’m not no. I didn’t realise you did name it incorrectly? I was being 100% genuine in that I’ve never read it.

Now that’s clear, you could attempt to answer my questions rather than levelling two false accusations at me. If you like.

[WhileTheChief..]

I’m not no. I didn’t realise you did name it incorrectly? I was being 100% genuine in that I’ve never read it.

Now that’s clear, you could attempt to answer my questions rather than levelling two false accusations at me. If you like.

Calling me a Union Jack champion?

Don't think I'll bother.

[WhileTheChief..]

It looks like the starting gun has been fired by the No side in the lead up to the next referendum. Let's hope they've shot their bolt.

I'm sure you'll read many a column of propaganda in the next wee while, it's what you believe to be true which should reflect a countries view.

You're on the side of the money moguls, and spin machines,in the media. The known liars.

Happy with that?

I'm against Independence, I'm not on anyone's side.

Chill.

[WeeRussell]

Calling me a Union Jack champion?

Don't think I'll bother.

Someone who champions the Union Jack whether it’s relating to today, wartime or 100s of years ago, regardless of the topic or argument.

Ok, don’t bother. It always speaks volumes when someone makes a bizarre comment and then declines to expand because they don’t like the posters posing the questions… or indeed they have nothing to expand with.

I would point out, however, that you had a go at me for not wanting to read posts I don’t agree with (false for the record).. and at the same time made a dig at kato for engaging with a post he didn’t agree with.

I refer back to the suggestion that you’re simply lashing out.

[WhileTheChief..]

Someone who champions the Union Jack whether it’s relating to today, wartime or 100s of years ago, regardless of the topic or argument.

Ok, don’t bother. It always speaks volumes when someone makes a bizarre comment and then declines to expand because they don’t like the posters posing the questions… or indeed they have nothing to expand with.

I would point out, however, that you had a go at me for not wanting to read posts I don’t agree with (false for the record).. and at the same time made a dig at kato for engaging with a post he didn’t agree with.

I refer back to the suggestion that you’re simply lashing out.

I've never championed the union jack in my life.

Go back a page or 2, The National reports that Scotland's education system is amazing. Poster follows up with SNP is brilliant, or words to that effect.

Go back to any page in this thread and find a headline from the Express or Mail and it will be rubbished within a few posts.

That's the point I was making with a fairly bland, throwaway quip. I certainly didn't expect it to generate an argument!

You've made a mountain out of a molehill. And Kato, since you decided to bring him back into things.

[WhileTheChief..]

I didn't think I had said it was because of the Scottish govt, I actually think things are working and if things aren't then the finger of blame can be pointed in one direction only.
I tried debating a while back but it was impossible, as others have said when you go against the grain on here you get hit from all angles. WTC I think was the latest to have a go and he felt shouted down, I won't be trying again :aok:


Ach, maybe you were right after all :greengrin

[WeeRussell]

I've never championed the union jack in my life.

Go back a page or 2, The National reports that Scotland's education system is amazing. Poster follows up with SNP is brilliant, or words to that effect.

Go back to any page in this thread and find a headline from the Express or Mail and it will be rubbished within a few posts.

That's the point I was making with a fairly bland, throwaway quip. I certainly didn't expect it to generate an argument!

You've made a mountain out of a molehill. And Kato, since you decided to bring him back into things.

Ok, thanks for the explanation.

I couldn’t find any reference to the national, or anyone saying the SNP is brilliant having scanned the previous two pages. However I’ll take your impartial word for it as no point making the mountain any bigger, as you say.

[WeeRussell]

Ach, maybe you were right after all :greengrin

With all due respect, similar applies as it did to crunchie’s approach in that making a statement suggesting everyone on here reads only the national and believes every word, while excluding any other views in the press isn’t trying to debate, is it?

[WhileTheChief..]

good work :agree: Scotland has Europe's best-educated population, according to Eurostat | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/19929798.scotland-europes-best-educated-population-according-eurostat/?fbclid=IwAR3RpEm9Mx1_ZPBLe7fwyBxC4m4nTUJpM1JJsvji hfxUvI5SZ7SGPR36T4w)

NEW research from EuroStat has revealed that Scotland has the best-educated population in Europe (https://www.thenational.scot/news/europe), in a blow to opposition parties.

According to the body, which is the statistical office of the European Union but also compiles data for non-EU states, Scotland has been number one for the percentage of 25-61-year-olds educated up to degree level for every year between 2011 and 2019 (the last year for which data is available”.

The SNP (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/snp/)’s Kaukab Stewart (below), who was a teacher before entering the Scottish Parliament, said the data shows the “startling improvement in education (https://www.thenational.scot/news/education) since the SNP came to office”.

She also said the figures “blow out of the water bogus claims made by opposition parties”, who often attack the Scottish Government on its education record.






Ok, thanks for the explanation.

I couldn’t find any reference to the national, or anyone saying the SNP is brilliant having scanned the previous two pages. However I’ll take your impartial word for it as no point making the mountain any bigger, as you say.

here

[CropleyWasGod]

I've never championed the union jack in my life.

Go back a page or 2, The National reports that Scotland's education system is amazing. Poster follows up with SNP is brilliant, or words to that effect.

Go back to any page in this thread and find a headline from the Express or Mail and it will be rubbished within a few posts.

That's the point I was making with a fairly bland, throwaway quip. I certainly didn't expect it to generate an argument!

You've made a mountain out of a molehill. And Kato, since you decided to bring him back into things.

If it's any help, the Herald also ran with the story, which originates from a non-partisan source.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19929900.snp-scotland-europes-best-educated-country/

[WeeRussell]

here

Sorry, I did miss that being taken from the national.

Did that report and research turn out to be false?

[WhileTheChief..]

With all due respect, similar applies as it did to crunchie’s approach in that making a statement suggesting everyone on here reads only the national and believes every word, while excluding any other views in the press isn’t trying to debate, is it?

It was a harmless little comment that you've decided to run with.

Surprised you'd never heard of The National before when this thread has been around for years.

https://www.thenational.scot/

[WeeRussell]

It was a harmless little comment that you've decided to run with.

Surprised you'd never heard of The National before when this thread has been around for years.

https://www.thenational.scot/

I’ve heard of it and seen it in print format. I’ve never read it.

[WeeRussell]

It was a harmless little comment that you've decided to run with.

Surprised you'd never heard of The National before when this thread has been around for years.

https://www.thenational.scot/

I asked you a couple of questions to elaborate, which you now have.

I’ve decided to run with it because you’ve then went back to quote crunchie’s greeting about not being able to “debate” after making your harmless little comment.

[WhileTheChief..]

If it's any help, the Herald also ran with the story, which originates from a non-partisan source.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19929900.snp-scotland-europes-best-educated-country/

FFS, I'm not saying it was false, I've not even read the damn thing.

It was a throwaway line. A quip. A little dig. Nothing else.

It really didn't merit the responses it's generated.

Unless maybe it hit a nerve?! (only kidding folks, put the pitchforks down)

Look through this forum. Whenever anyone posts something from the Mail it is instantly rubbished. The same doesn't apply to the National or Guardian, folk joyfully agree with anything they print.

[WeeRussell]

FFS, I'm not saying it was false, I've not even read the damn thing.

It was a throwaway line. A quip. A little dig. Nothing else.

It really didn't merit the responses it's generated.

Unless maybe it hit a nerve?! (only kidding folks, put the pitchforks down)

Look through this forum. Whenever anyone posts something from the Mail it is instantly rubbished. The same doesn't apply to the National or Guardian, folk joyfully agree with anything they print.

As in the daily mail/mailonline?!

[grunt]

I’ve heard of it and seen it in print format. I’ve never read it.
Perhaps you should try. You might learn something.

[WhileTheChief..]

As in the daily mail/mailonline?!

Yes.

I don't buy or read it BTW before you start down that road with me.

[Kato]

You've lost me. What is stopping you from doing what?

Why do you even want to engage with me ?

The Trump comment, you've made that point several times now as though you are trying to embarrass me or something. Why?

I've never insulted you, had a go at you, or called you out on anything.

Whenever I post in the Holy Ground you're not far behind with a dig, or a jibe.

Please stop it.You questioned the critical faculties of posters on here in the way they approach the press and how they take whether they are factual or not.

I pointed out you support known liars.

Can't see anything wrong with that

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[WeeRussell]

Yes.

I don't buy or read it BTW before you start down that road with me.

Thanks. And no, no further roads with you to go down your honour.

[WeeRussell]

Perhaps you should try. You might learn something.

Okay - thanks

[WhileTheChief..]

You questioned the critical faculties of posters on here in the way they approach the press and how they take whether they are factual or not.

I pointed out you support known liars.

Can't see anything wrong with that

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

:faf: aye ok then

[WhileTheChief..]

Thanks. And no, no further roads with you to go down your honour.

??

Every post. Some kind of dig or jibe.

Can't you just discuss things with people you disagree with or do you always like to argue / fight?

[Hibrandenburg]

I asked you a couple of questions to elaborate, which you now have.

I’ve decided to run with it because you’ve then went back to quote crunchie’s greeting about not being able to “debate” after making your harmless little comment.

Debating with Crunchie is like reading the Daily Mail, he deliberately gets the wrong end of the stick then claims you said something you didn't and then some people take what he says at face value. It's the Tory way, fling some muck and hope some of it sticks.

[Hibrandenburg]

Look through this forum. Whenever anyone posts something from the Mail it is instantly rubbished. The same doesn't apply to the National or Guardian, folk joyfully agree with anything they print.

I wonder why that is? :faf:

[WhileTheChief..]

Debating with Crunchie is like reading the Daily Mail, he deliberately gets the wrong end of the stick then claims you said something you didn't and then some people take what he says at face value. It's the Tory way, fling some muck and hope some of it sticks.

There is no debate on here.

You're all Nationalists slapping each other on the back in your echo chamber.

[JeMeSouviens]

Debating with Crunchie is like reading the Daily Mail, he deliberately gets the wrong end of the stick then claims you said something you didn't and then some people take what he says at face value. It's the Tory way, fling some muck and hope some of it sticks.

More like playing chess with a pigeon.

[Hibrandenburg]

More like playing chess with a pigeon.

I originally typed exactly that, but it didn't fit the rest of my post. :greengrin

[WeeRussell]

??

Every post. Some kind of dig or jibe.

Can't you just discuss things with people you disagree with or do you always like to argue / fight?

Now THAT was a harmless wee comment. It just came to my head as it sounded like when someone says “no further questions”.. that was all!

You really are unbelievable… your previous posts were going radge because me and others were asking questions about a post you didn’t expect to be questioned and were making a mountain out of a molehill.

Do you not see the irony in the desperate nonsense you come out with?!

[WhileTheChief..]

Now THAT was a harmless wee comment. It just came to my head as it sounded like when someone says “no further questions”.. that was all!

You really are unbelievable… your previous posts were going radge because me and others were asking questions about a post you didn’t expect to be questioned and were making a mountain out of a molehill.

Do not see the irony in the desperate nonsense you come out with?!

I'm not going radge about anything.

I'll leave you to it.

[ronaldo7]

I'm against Independence, I'm not on anyone's side.

Chill.

Im perfectly chilled mate, horizontal in fact.

Let's hope you open your eyes a little wider when reading the unionist press.

Enjoy the ride. 🎢

[DaveF]

There is no debate on here.

You're all Nationalists slapping each other on the back in your echo chamber.

But you, crunchie and other unionists all agreeing with each other is ok? Is that how it works?

[WhileTheChief..]

But you, crunchie and other unionists all agreeing with each other is ok? Is that how it works?

Crunchie and I are exactly the people the SNP need to win over if they want Independence.

You guys would be better off trying to explain the benefits of it to us instead of just ripping us as Unionists.

I don't even class myself as a Unionist yet you've labelled me as one.

[WhileTheChief..]

But you, crunchie and other unionists all agreeing with each other is ok? Is that how it works?

Where? 580 pages, there must be some, somewhere??!!

Quick question, would you like more people that are against Indy to get involved on the thread or do you like it the way it is?

[Ozyhibby]

Where? 580 pages, there must be some, somewhere??!!

Quick question, would you like more people that are against Indy to get involved on the thread or do you like it the way it is?

I’d love someone to come on and tell why Scotland seems to be getting poorer and poorer compared to our neighbours and when they they think this will end while part of the union?
What is the plan for us to become as rich as Denmark or Ireland? Or Norway? Iceland?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

Crunchie and I are exactly the people the SNP need to win over if they want Independence.

You guys would be better off trying to explain the benefits of it to us instead of just ripping us as Unionists.

I don't even class myself as a Unionist yet you've labelled me as one.

While we'll take all the votes we can get, I've not got you or crunchie down as OAP's. That's the group we need to win over. We're always going to get guys who're dyed in the wool unionists, who'll never see independence as the way forward. Queen and country is what they favour, as is their right. I'm not putting either of you in this group, but we do have them.

We know the groups we need to target, and wouldn't be wasting our time on the loyalists.

You really don't need anyone to show you the way if you've been paying attention for the last 7 years.

[JeMeSouviens]

Where? 580 pages, there must be some, somewhere??!!

Quick question, would you like more people that are against Indy to get involved on the thread or do you like it the way it is?

I think most of us have been around here so long that we've said all there is to say on our positions. We're just pretty much killing time now. :wink:

I miss Mibbes Aye and One Day Soon, but I think I persuaded them pretty much absolutely not at all of the merits of an iScotland. :greengrin

[WhileTheChief..]

I’d love someone to come on and tell why Scotland seems to be getting poorer and poorer compared to our neighbours and when they they think this will end while part of the union?
What is the plan for us to become as rich as Denmark or Ireland? Or Norway? Iceland?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I doubt you'll get that on a football msg board, that should really be down to actual politicians to make the case for the Union. I'm certainly not going to try. I'm not trying to convince anybody to vote No.


While we'll take all the votes we can get, I've not got you or crunchie down as OAP's. That's the group we need to win over. We're always going to get guys who're dyed in the wool unionists, who'll never see independence as the way forward. Queen and country is what they favour, as is their right. I'm not putting either of you in this group, but we do have them.

We know the groups we need to target, and wouldn't be wasting our time on the loyalists.

You really don't need anyone to show you the way if you've been paying attention for the last 7 years.

Fair points.

I don't think the tone on here, or online in general, does the Indy cause much favour.

Appreciate your reply though, you didn't feel the need to have a pop, which is refreshing!!

[Moulin Yarns]

Crunchie and I are exactly the people the SNP need to win over if they want Independence.

You guys would be better off trying to explain the benefits of it to us instead of just ripping us as Unionists.

I don't even class myself as a Unionist yet you've labelled me as one.

I know you won't believe this, but the Sunday edition of the National had a really good article on how to win over people to the independence side, you guys were seen as a lost cause. :greengrin

[Crunchie]

Crunchie and I are exactly the people the SNP need to win over if they want Independence.

You guys would be better off trying to explain the benefits of it to us instead of just ripping us as Unionists.

I don't even class myself as a Unionist yet you've labelled me as one.
I voted for Independence last time around and they call me a unionist :greengrin, You're wasting your time engaging with certain posters, they like to say they want a debate but it's not long before you're branded a liar and the insults start to fly ( as you're finding out ).

[grunt]

Here's a new reason why we can't be independent - we've got too much energy and not enough people to use it ...

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1494309413422780420?s=20&t=a9bgKVNxJtjvPbDq8_GgYw

[grunt]

We're always going to get guys who're dyed in the wool unionists, who'll never see independence as the way forward. Queen and country is what they favour, as is their right. I'm not putting either of you in this group, but we do have them.

We know the groups we need to target, and wouldn't be wasting our time on the loyalists.
I was interested to read your post, and this phrase jumped out at me. It's well known that supporters of the blue team are largely unionist, but I wonder what impact it might have on any prospective indyref if the Queen were no longer there? Given the monarchy's current problems, it's not too fanciful to suggest that the monarchy might look very different after the current queen passes on.

I wonder if that might impact on the unionist vote?

[1 8 7 5]

If it's any help, the Herald also ran with the story, which originates from a non-partisan source.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19929900.snp-scotland-europes-best-educated-country/

I think if this post had been read by folks, a good few posters could have saved themselves an awfy lot of typing.

[WhileTheChief..]

I voted for Independence last time around and they call me a unionist :greengrin, You're wasting your time engaging with certain posters, they like to say they want a debate but it's not long before you're branded a liar and the insults start to fly ( as you're finding out ).

It's a strange one. Roughly half the country* are against Indy yet if you went by this forum you'd think it was more like 90 / 10 in favour of it.

I wonder why that is?


*I've not checked the polls in the last 24hrs / 5 years so will happily accept I could be wrong here. It's not part of any agenda on my part, so no need for anyone to come along and tell me it's actually 49.9% or whatever.

[WhileTheChief..]

I know you won't believe this, but the Sunday edition of the National had a really good article on how to win over people to the independence side, you guys were seen as a lost cause. :greengrin


Tried to find it online but I can't get past the homepage.

It's just a big online version of an SNP leaflet which would get handed through the doors around polling day.

Has it ever published an article that was critical of the SNP or Scottish Gov??

[Jones28]

Tried to find it online but I can't get past the homepage.

It's just a big online version of an SNP leaflet which would get handed through the doors around polling day.

Has it ever published an article that was critical of the SNP or Scottish Gov??

It plays to an audience in the same way every paper does.

I don’t like it, it’s sycophantic and cringey most of the time. But that’s print media, which is why it’s dying.

[ronaldo7]

I was interested to read your post, and this phrase jumped out at me. It's well known that supporters of the blue team are largely unionist, but I wonder what impact it might have on any prospective indyref if the Queen were no longer there? Given the monarchy's current problems, it's not too fanciful to suggest that the monarchy might look very different after the current queen passes on.

I wonder if that might impact on the unionist vote?

I think Elizabeth the first of Scotland is held in high esteem by those pensioners I mentioned earlier. I'm not sure they could muster up an afternoon tea for Charlie, the nonce, or Harry, but the establishment know who they want to play to the masses. Step forward King Billy, and Kate. Hopefully we'll be well shot of the lot of them in an independent republic by the time King Billy is sitting on his throne.

[ronaldo7]

Here's a new reason why we can't be independent - we've got too much energy and not enough people to use it ...

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1494309413422780420?s=20&t=a9bgKVNxJtjvPbDq8_GgYw

Wonderful.

He'd have been better just telling everyone not to worry themselves about all that energy stuff. We wouldn't know what to do with it. All the time Kevin Hague nodding in encouragement. The next time the BBC show you something done by that impartial group/ think tank, these islands, this is who they are.

[grunt]

Wonderful.

He'd have been better just telling everyone not to worry themselves about all that energy stuff. We wouldn't know what to do with it. All the time Kevin Hague nodding in encouragement. The next time the BBC show you something done by that impartial group/ think tank, these islands, this is who they are.I didn't realise that was who was sitting there nodding.

[ronaldo7]

Hi Crunchie,

I'm asking again for a response back from November, page 569. You may have been off the forum for a while, but I was genuinely interested in your view of how we are trying to move children out of poverty. Considering we've now increased the Scottish Child payment again, you might have changed your thoughts. :aok:


I voted for Independence last time around and they call me a unionist :greengrin, You're wasting your time engaging with certain posters, they like to say they want a debate but it's not long before you're branded a liar and the insults start to fly ( as you're finding out ).


Tell me what Sturgeon's done for child poverty in Scotland other than increase it, especially in her own constituency.


Quite a bit of reading for you here, so I'll wait on a response. Happy to help. :aok:

“We are now delivering 11 benefits and 7 of them are brand new - and the more complex devolved disability and carer benefits have started to be rolled out. When all Scottish benefits have been introduced, we will support 1.8 million children and adults – around a third of people in Scotland.

“What’s also positive in this annual report is that, as well as getting people the money they are entitled to, it’s clear that overwhelmingly people are having a very positive experience when they are interacting with this new public service. People can be assured that Social Security Scotland will be there when they need it, and is a service that they can rely on and be proud of.”

Chief Executive of Social Security Scotland, David Wallace said:

the ten payments made last financial year were to clients receiving: Carer’s Allowance Supplement, Best Start Grant Pregnancy and Baby Payment, Best Start Grant Early Learning payment, Best Start Grant School Age Payment, Best Start Foods, Funeral Support Payment, Young Carer Grant, Job Start Payment, Scottish Child Payment and Child Winter Heating Assistance
the Child Disability Payment pilot started in the summer and will be rolled out nationally on 22 November.


https://spice-spotlight.scot/2021/07/19/scottish-child-payment-where-next/#:~:text=The%20Scottish%20Child%20Payment%20was%20 introduced%20in%20February,to%2018%25%20by%202023-24%20and%2010%25%20by%202030-31.

https://digitalpublications.parliament.scot/ResearchBriefings/Report/2021/7/13/c9019cbc-3242-4f2c-9d37-fa7cb34f1376#Introduction

The Scottish Child Payment, at £10 per week for eligible children aged under 6, means child poverty in Scotland is around 1 percentage point lower than it would otherwise have been. This equates to roughly 10,000 children being taken out of poverty. The cost for the first full year (2021-22) is estimated at £68 million by the Scottish Fiscal Commission.
A doubling of the payment, to £20 per week for eligible children aged under 6 would result in a further 1 percentage point reduction in child poverty, or another 10,000 children taken out of poverty. This would double the annual costs to an estimated £136 million (an additional £68 million over and above the existing costs).
Extending eligibility to under 16 year olds in qualifying families (and keeping the rate of payment at £10 per week) would also reduce child poverty by 1 percentage point, taking another 10,000 children taken out of poverty. The additional cost over and above the costs of the existing policy are estimated at £80 million.
A combination of doubling the payment to £20 per week AND extending to eligible under 16 year olds would reduce child poverty to an estimated 19%. This is 4 percentage points lower than under the current policy and would take a further 40,000 children out of poverty. The additional cost is estimated at around £220 million.


Still waiting on your response from my reply to this post.

[Crunchie]

Hi Crunchie,

I'm asking again for a response back from November, page 569. You may have been off the forum for a while, but I was genuinely interested in your view of how we are trying to move children out of poverty. Considering we've now increased the Scottish Child payment again, you might have changed your thoughts. :aok:
Watching The Rangers game, then It'll be on to the other erse cheek, but you're not really interested in what I think :aok:

Have a good night.

[ronaldo7]

Watching The Rangers game, then It'll be on to the other erse cheek, but you're not really interested in what I think :aok:

Have a good night.

I was more interested in debunking your comment back in November.

This one.

Tell me what Sturgeon's done for child poverty in Scotland other than increase it, especially in her own constituency.

However, you decided not to respond to my answer which is your prerogative.

It's rather rich of you to now tell other posters not to bother engaging with certain posters, when you can't be bothered replying yourself.

I'll leave you to the Old Firm, and give your posts a wide berth in future.

Have a good night.

[Jones28]

Watching The Rangers game, then It'll be on to the other erse cheek, but you're not really interested in what I think :aok:

Have a good night.

That’s an interesting way of swerving an argument, proclaiming to be more interested in 2 teams you don’t support than child poverty 😂

[stantonhibby]

SNP councils will not be raising council tax. Vote accordingly.


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Glasgow Council have raised it by 3%.

[Ozyhibby]

Glasgow Council have raised it by 3%.

Yip, it appears I was wrong and most are going for 3% rises. Below inflation but still a rise.


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[Santa Cruz]

Lets not kid ourselves. It is a below inflation rise of 3% due to impending LA Elections. Will be well above that next year.

[Ozyhibby]

Lets not kid ourselves. It is a below inflation rise of 3% due to impending LA Elections. Will be well above that next year.

Absolutely. This is a real terms cut to council budgets.


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[ronaldo7]

Here's a new reason why we can't be independent - we've got too much energy and not enough people to use it ...

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1494309413422780420?s=20&t=a9bgKVNxJtjvPbDq8_GgYw

The case for the union M'lud. Get back in yer box, Scotland. We'll take it from here. Is this it?

What are the unionists offering?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220222/0bd090859b9242eff3228c4f043cd2ae.jpg

Is Scotland about to get new borrowing powers?


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[danhibees1875]

Is Scotland about to get new borrowing powers?


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I would imagine that would mean through budget reallocation rather than additional spending.

[grunt]

How the FM is referred to by some in the press, compared to how they refer to the Tories:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMNvkZ3WYAA6OvD?format=jpg&name=large

[Kato]

How the FM is referred to by some in the press, compared to how they refer to the Tories:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FMNvkZ3WYAA6OvD?format=jpg&name=largeThat's because that paper wants it's readers to think of the first three people in the headline as their pals, all jolly good chaps. The dim and the vindictive lap it up.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

25632

Temerko is a member of Carlton Club (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlton_Club), a private member's club in London, where he donated a £90,000 bust of David Cameron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cameron)

During the 2014 Scottish independence referendum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Scottish_independence_referendum), Temerko publicly supported the campaign for Scotland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland) to remain in the United Kingdom

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275140474_5236295989734710_9056342693964710548_n.j pg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=_1EtlsRamYYAX9hYEBs&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AT-biUMKHJ22tU7slcesatHbk93ll4feMSKJYWFMv8DnFA&oe=6227E087


WE must never ALLOW eh :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220319/cdd0cf13a33de29c83a07fb739d46acc.jpg

Douglas Ross says Scotland is getting worse the longer we stay in the union. He also adds we are getting poorer.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotland-more-bitter-and-inward-facing-today-than-when-i-was-young-douglas-ross-3618376


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[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60796642

Personally I'd say that a lot of what he said chimes with me.

[Glory Lurker]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60796642

Personally I'd say that a lot of what he said chimes with me.

I'm not going beyond the headline. Pro-EU, pro-immigartion Scotland is smaller than it used to be??? Get on, pal! It's perhaps making the Tories with their delight in xenophobia feel smaller, but that is completely irrelevant.

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60796642

Personally I'd say that a lot of what he said chimes with me.

I wonder if his take on national positivity is a wee bit coloured by his personal tendency to delusion:
Douglas Ross has set a much greater ambition for the future - to replace Nicola Sturgeon as first minister in 2026.

[grunt]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60796642

Personally I'd say that a lot of what he said chimes with me.
LOL.

This is the guy who's the Scottish leader of the party responsible for depriving us all of the right to live, work, study and retire in 27 other countries, against our will. The party who is working to make it impossible for immigrants to come to the country, whose Government looked at using patrol boats and wave machines to deter desperate immigrants, a Government who has removed us from European programmes that encouraged trade, learning and sharing of security services. A Government who has made it far more difficult for our businesses to trade with our largest market, to the extent that many no longer bother to try.

And we're the ones he says are bitter and inward-looking???

[Scorrie]

LOL.

This is the guy who's the Scottish leader of the party responsible for depriving us all of the right to live, work, study and retire in 27 other countries, against our will. The party who is working to make it impossible for immigrants to come to the country, whose Government looked at using patrol boats and wave machines to deter desperate immigrants, a Government who has removed us from European programmes that encouraged trade, learning and sharing of security services. A Government who has made it far more difficult for our businesses to trade with our largest market, to the extent that many no longer bother to try.

And we're the ones he says are bitter and inward-looking???

Spot on

[Hibrandenburg]

LOL.

This is the guy who's the Scottish leader of the party responsible for depriving us all of the right to live, work, study and retire in 27 other countries, against our will. The party who is working to make it impossible for immigrants to come to the country, whose Government looked at using patrol boats and wave machines to deter desperate immigrants, a Government who has removed us from European programmes that encouraged trade, learning and sharing of security services. A Government who has made it far more difficult for our businesses to trade with our largest market, to the extent that many no longer bother to try.

And we're the ones he says are bitter and inward-looking???:agree:

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[Ozyhibby]

LOL.

This is the guy who's the Scottish leader of the party responsible for depriving us all of the right to live, work, study and retire in 27 other countries, against our will. The party who is working to make it impossible for immigrants to come to the country, whose Government looked at using patrol boats and wave machines to deter desperate immigrants, a Government who has removed us from European programmes that encouraged trade, learning and sharing of security services. A Government who has made it far more difficult for our businesses to trade with our largest market, to the extent that many no longer bother to try.

And we're the ones he says are bitter and inward-looking???

It’s amazing they can’t see it.


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[Hibrandenburg]

It’s amazing they can’t see it.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkOh they can see it alright, they just don't want the electorate to see it.

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[degenerated]

LOL.

This is the guy who's the Scottish leader of the party responsible for depriving us all of the right to live, work, study and retire in 27 other countries, against our will. The party who is working to make it impossible for immigrants to come to the country, whose Government looked at using patrol boats and wave machines to deter desperate immigrants, a Government who has removed us from European programmes that encouraged trade, learning and sharing of security services. A Government who has made it far more difficult for our businesses to trade with our largest market, to the extent that many no longer bother to try.

And we're the ones he says are bitter and inward-looking???Can't argue with that.

[He's here!]

LOL.

This is the guy who's the Scottish leader of the party responsible for depriving us all of the right to live, work, study and retire in 27 other countries, against our will. The party who is working to make it impossible for immigrants to come to the country, whose Government looked at using patrol boats and wave machines to deter desperate immigrants, a Government who has removed us from European programmes that encouraged trade, learning and sharing of security services. A Government who has made it far more difficult for our businesses to trade with our largest market, to the extent that many no longer bother to try.

And we're the ones he says are bitter and inward-looking???


I didn't see his speech but the point I'm taking from that BBC report is that he correctly points out how 'divided against itself' Scotland is. It's been that way since the 2014 referendum campaign which is mythologised by yes voters as some sort of free-spirited expression of democracy in action. For the majority of those who voted it was an unpleasant, divisive time which we hoped to have seen the back of after the flood of relief that Scotland had said no. Sadly, that division remains entrenched, stoked by a government whose record in office stands up to little scrutiny.

I want to be judged by my record in education was Sturgeon's long-ago claim. Well as somebody who works in education my verdict would be she's been a resounding failure.

[Kato]

I didn't see his speech but the point I'm taking from that BBC report is that he correctly points out how 'divided against itself' Scotland is. It's been that way since the 2014 referendum campaign which is mythologised by yes voters as some sort of free-spirited expression of democracy in action. For the majority of those who voted it was an unpleasant, divisive time which we hoped to have seen the back of after the flood of relief that Scotland had said no. Sadly, that division remains entrenched, stoked by a government whose record in office stands up to little scrutiny.

I want to be judged by my record in education was Sturgeon's long-ago claim. Well as somebody who works in education my verdict would be she's been a resounding failure.That's a point of view I suppose. The guys I work with who voted No are still my pals. Any division is played out for the most part, in pixels - except for the outright zoomers on both sides.

What I find amusing is the idea that Scotland was in anyway united before the referendum.

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[Ozyhibby]

I didn't see his speech but the point I'm taking from that BBC report is that he correctly points out how 'divided against itself' Scotland is. It's been that way since the 2014 referendum campaign which is mythologised by yes voters as some sort of free-spirited expression of democracy in action. For the majority of those who voted it was an unpleasant, divisive time which we hoped to have seen the back of after the flood of relief that Scotland had said no. Sadly, that division remains entrenched, stoked by a government whose record in office stands up to little scrutiny.

I want to be judged by my record in education was Sturgeon's long-ago claim. Well as somebody who works in education my verdict would be she's been a resounding failure.

Don’t we have the most educated population in Europe?


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[grunt]

I didn't see his speech but the point I'm taking from that BBC report is that he correctly points out how 'divided against itself' Scotland is. It's been that way since the 2014 referendum campaign which is mythologised by yes voters as some sort of free-spirited expression of democracy in action. For the majority of those who voted it was an unpleasant, divisive time which we hoped to have seen the back of after the flood of relief that Scotland had said no. Sadly, that division remains entrenched, stoked by a government whose record in office stands up to little scrutiny.

Listen to yourself. You say the country is divided - and as regards independence, it clearly is. But you seem to think the cause of that division is that there are a large number of people who don't think like you do. So how do you address that division? Do you, like Douglas Ross, snipe from the sidelines and shout that everything the (democratically elected) Scottish Government does is wrong, when his own party's leaders in Westminster are lying on a daily basis and taking the country further to the right, reducing benefits and condemning an increasing number of people to poverty? Or do you have a mature discussion about what the country of Scotland wants for its future, about what sort of country we'd all like to live in?

Yes there's division in the country. We need to discuss how we deal with that.

PS - my recollection of 2014 is the opposite to yours. I found the discussion to be interesting and enlightening. The only unpleasantness I recall was from Rangers supporting Unionists in George Square "celebrating" their win.

[Hibrandenburg]

Don’t we have the most educated population in Europe?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDepends who you ask. Ask Europe then yes, ask Westminster then we should all be wearing pointy hats with a big "D" on them.

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[grunt]

I didn't see his speech but the point I'm taking from that BBC report is that he correctly points out how 'divided against itself' Scotland is.
I'll add that one of the reasons that Ross's comments annoyed me so much, is that he's pointing to the division in Scotland when wilfully ignoring the huge division across the whole of the UK - and further across Europe and the western world - caused by his own party's implementation of a criminal Brexit vote helped along by Russian money. One of the principal causes of the resurgence of Scottish independence has been this country's treatment under Brexit.

He's pointing out the mote in our eye while ignoring the plank in his own.

[degenerated]

Listen to yourself. You say the country is divided - and as regards independence, it clearly is. But you seem to think the cause of that division is that there are a large number of people who don't think like you do. So how do you address that division? Do you, like Douglas Ross, snipe from the sidelines and shout that everything the (democratically elected) Scottish Government does is wrong, when his own party's leaders in Westminster are lying on a daily basis and taking the country further to the right, reducing benefits and condemning an increasing number of people to poverty? Or do you have a mature discussion about what the country of Scotland wants for its future, about what sort of country we'd all like to live in?

Yes there's division in the country. We need to discuss how we deal with that.

PS - my recollection of 2014 is the opposite to yours. I found the discussion to be interesting and enlightening. The only unpleasantness I recall was from Rangers supporting Unionists in George Square "celebrating" their win.You have to take into account that being called unionist is far more divisive than any of the actual violence perpetuated by unionists in George Square that night.

[Ozyhibby]

I'll add that one of the reasons that Ross's comments annoyed me so much, is that he's pointing to the division in Scotland when wilfully ignoring the huge division across the whole of the UK - and further across Europe and the western world - caused by his own party's implementation of a criminal Brexit vote helped along by Russian money. One of the principal causes of the resurgence of Scottish independence has been this country's treatment under Brexit.

He's pointing out the mote in our eye while ignoring the plank in his own.

Without Brexit, a second Indyref would not be even close to being on the agenda.


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[Santa Cruz]

I didn't see his speech but the point I'm taking from that BBC report is that he correctly points out how 'divided against itself' Scotland is. It's been that way since the 2014 referendum campaign which is mythologised by yes voters as some sort of free-spirited expression of democracy in action. For the majority of those who voted it was an unpleasant, divisive time which we hoped to have seen the back of after the flood of relief that Scotland had said no. Sadly, that division remains entrenched, stoked by a government whose record in office stands up to little scrutiny.

I want to be judged by my record in education was Sturgeon's long-ago claim. Well as somebody who works in education my verdict would be she's been a resounding failure.

Did you see the report the other day how they tried to interfere with Audit Scotland's latest report on Education. The word used in the report was they tried to "censor" some of the findings as it wasn't as positive as they would have liked. Don't know if censor is entirely appropriate as it read like they were challenging the findings, but concerning that they would try and tell an independent body whose main remit is to scrutinise public sector spending and performance what to publish. As I understand it, AS went ahead and published. I have no source, cos can't mind where I read it.

[lapsedhibee]

Did you see the report the other day how they tried to interfere with Audit Scotland's latest report on Education. The word used in the report was they tried to "censor" some of the findings as it wasn't as positive as they would have liked. Don't know if censor is entirely appropriate as it read like they were challenging the findings, but concerning that they would try and tell an independent body whose main remit is to scrutinise public sector spending and performance what to publish. As I understand it, AS went ahead and published. I have no source, cos can't mind where I read it.

If it was an OECD rather than AS report, Sunday Times maybe. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-ministers-censored-report-warning-of-curriculum-confusion-wjcwp9fn5

[grunt]

Did you see the report the other day how they tried to interfere with Audit Scotland's latest report on Education. The word used in the report was they tried to "censor" some of the findings as it wasn't as positive as they would have liked. Don't know if censor is entirely appropriate as it read like they were challenging the findings, but concerning that they would try and tell an independent body whose main remit is to scrutinise public sector spending and performance what to publish. As I understand it, AS went ahead and published. I have no source, cos can't mind where I read it.
Here's a link to the report I think you're referring to https://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/publications/improving-outcomes-for-young-people-through-school-education

Here's the opening of the press release:


Progress on closing the poverty-related attainment gap between the most and least deprived school pupils has been limited. And more evidence is needed to understand educational achievement beyond exams.

A joint report by the Auditor General for Scotland and the Accounts Commission found that exam performance and other attainment measures at the national level have improved. However, progress since 2013-14 has been inconsistent. And there are large variations in local authority performance, with some councils' performance getting worse on some measures.

It should be remembered that Audit Scotland's remit is to look at public spending and to make recommendations about possible improvements, and highlight where poor performance exists. So it's not surprising when a report says that things could be better. What's sad in today's political climate is that such reports are jumped on by opposition parties to score political points.

[Santa Cruz]

If it was an OECD rather than AS report, Sunday Times maybe. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-ministers-censored-report-warning-of-curriculum-confusion-wjcwp9fn5

I'm no doubt wrong as couldn't read the full article. Thought it was Audit Scotland based on their mention in this tweet.

https://twitter.com/mark_mclaughlin/status/1504752284273725446?cxt=HHwWjMC-sdyO-uEpAAAA

[grunt]

If it was an OECD rather than AS report, Sunday Times maybe. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snp-ministers-censored-report-warning-of-curriculum-confusion-wjcwp9fn5Apologies, I obviously got the wrong report.

[grunt]

I'm no doubt wrong as couldn't read the full article. Thought it was Audit Scotland based on their mention in this tweet.

https://twitter.com/mark_mclaughlin/status/1504752284273725446?cxt=HHwWjMC-sdyO-uEpAAAASeems a reasonable challenge by ScotGov:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOH0OcDX0AQJSqK?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Santa Cruz]

Here's a link to the report I think you're referring to https://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/publications/improving-outcomes-for-young-people-through-school-education

Here's the opening of the press release:



It should be remembered that Audit Scotland's remit is to look at public spending and to make recommendations about possible improvements, and highlight where poor performance exists. So it's not surprising when a report says that things could be better. What's sad in today's political climate is that such reports are jumped on by opposition parties to score political points.

They've been in Gov for 15 years. It's almost like people think they were mute when it came to criticism when they were in opposition. It is the job of opposition party's to point out failings of the current administration.

[Santa Cruz]

Seems a reasonable challenge by ScotGov:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FOH0OcDX0AQJSqK?format=jpg&name=900x900
They went ahead and published, so they didn't see it as a valid challenge.

[grunt]

They went ahead and published, so they didn't see it as a valid challenge.I meant that I saw it as a valid challenge.

Anyone who has ever been an auditor or has been the subject of an audit will smile wryly when you said that ScotGov tried to "interfere" with the report. It's not interfering if you're disagreeing with the words of the report. Interfering would be not releasing the report - see UKGov and the report on Russian involvement in UK democracy. Now that's "interfering".

[Ozyhibby]

I’d say an 8% improvement is very good progress?


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[lapsedhibee]

They went ahead and published, so they didn't see it as a valid challenge.

McLaughlin has provided a dictionary definition of 'censor' which he seems to think justifies his claim, but I still don't see where the attempt to censor is :confused:

[Santa Cruz]

I meant that I saw it as a valid challenge.

Anyone who has ever been an auditor or has been the subject of an audit will smile wryly when you said that ScotGov tried to "interfere" with the report. It's not interfering if you're disagreeing with the words of the report. Interfering would be not releasing the report - see UKGov and the report on Russian involvement in UK democracy. Now that's "interfering".

When it comes to an apolitical independent body report on public sector spending and performance, and you have a Gov challenging their findings, that they went on to publish regardless, I think the public have every right to raise an eyebrow. We're not talking about auditing a company's accounts here, this is the educational standards of hundreds of thousands of kids. I've nothing more to add. :aok:

[He's here!]

Without Brexit, a second Indyref would not be even close to being on the agenda.


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Brexit did not prove to be the catalyst for a second independence referendum that the SNP assumed. They campaigned on that assumption at the 2017 general election and lost a third of their seats, with the Tories enjoying their best result in Scotland since peak Thatcher (including Ross unseating that slimeball Angus Robertson by overturning a pretty hefty majority...not to mention the joyous end of Salmond's career as an MP).

Sure, Johnson makes it easy for the SNP to keep spitting out the anti-Westminster mantra but there's ultimately got to be more to offer than that.

[Ozyhibby]

Brexit did not prove to be the catalyst for a second independence referendum that the SNP assumed. They campaigned on that assumption at the 2017 general election and lost a third of their seats, with the Tories enjoying their best result in Scotland since peak Thatcher (including Ross unseating that slimeball Angus Robertson by overturning a pretty hefty majority...not to mention the joyous end of Salmond's career as an MP).

Sure, Johnson makes it easy for the SNP to keep spitting out the anti-Westminster mantra but there's ultimately got to be more to offer than that.

Support for Indy has been rising slowly but surely since 2014. I’m not seeing anything on the horizon that stops that. It’s the steady March of demographic change.


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[Kato]

Brexit did not prove to be the catalyst for a second independence referendum that the SNP assumed.

But parties campaigning for one won the election. The tories got decent because Scots who prefer to remain British because of their emotions galvanised behind them.

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[He's here!]

I’d say an 8% improvement is very good progress?


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Not so good when part of the strategy to 'narrow the attainment gap' is to slow up the progress of kids in more affluent areas/higher attaining schools by cutting back on areas like homework.

[Ozyhibby]

Not so good when part of the strategy to 'narrow the attainment gap' is to slow up the progress of kids in more affluent areas/higher attaining schools by cutting back on areas like homework.

Pretty sure there was an improvement in the higher attaining schools as well?


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[Callum_62]

Not so good when part of the strategy to 'narrow the attainment gap' is to slow up the progress of kids in more affluent areas/higher attaining schools by cutting back on areas like homework.Is there basis to show homework actually increases attainment?

https://www.superprof.co.uk/blog/new-study-finds-homework-doesnt-improve-grades/


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[Steven79]

Without Brexit, a second Indyref would not be even close to being on the agenda.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkShould have been on the agenda the day after the Indy ref after Cameron introduced EVEL.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/glennbbc/status/1505626889913835523?s=21

Broon trying to sell his fantasy, undefinable, undeliverable secret solution for Scotland.
He is admitting that what we currently have isn’t working, which is a start I suppose.


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[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/glennbbc/status/1505626889913835523?s=21

Broon trying to sell his fantasy, undefinable, undeliverable secret solution for Scotland.
He is admitting that what we currently have isn’t working, which is a start I suppose.


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Who is financing this has been?

[Radium]

https://twitter.com/glennbbc/status/1505626889913835523?s=21

Broon trying to sell his fantasy, undefinable, undeliverable secret solution for Scotland.
He is admitting that what we currently have isn’t working, which is a start I suppose.


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10 years ago Devo Max could have been an option but as Brown points out himself, everyone suffers when the governments don’t work together: the last 10 years have shown that any of the governments voted for by Scots since devolution could not work with the multi-decade Conservative governments preferred by others elsewhere in the UK.


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[degenerated]

10 years ago Devo Max could have been an option but as Brown points out himself, everyone suffers when the governments don’t work together: the last 10 years have shown that any of the governments voted for by Scots since devolution could not work with the multi-decade Conservative governments preferred by others elsewhere in the UK.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt's not within his gift to be able to deliver on these promises he makes. We should have learned that from 2014.

[Stairway 2 7]

I wonder who's vote would have got split more if it was a 3 way vote, no , yes , devo max

[easty]

Is there basis to show homework actually increases attainment?

https://www.superprof.co.uk/blog/new-study-finds-homework-doesnt-improve-grades/


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It must massively depend on the quality of the teaching in classes before the homework is assigned. This is just one study, but I struggle to believe that the right homework wouldn’t improve grades.

Practice makes perfect. However, being left to go do something you don’t know how to do, without appropriate instruction, is pointless.

[He's here!]

I wonder who's vote would have got split more if it was a 3 way vote, no , yes , devo max

Brown, as ever, speaks a lot of sense. One of the finest politicians Scotland has had. Such proposals would find favour in both Scotland and other areas of the UK. However that would entail compromise, something the SNP would not countenance as it doesn't fit with the indepenence-only narrative.
Devolution was delivered harmoniously (by and large) under Labour and it's a shame Corbyn set their electability back so far (while Starmer does not really convince as PM in waiting) otherwise these sort of sensible strategies might gain some traction.

[Ozyhibby]

Brown, as ever, speaks a lot of sense. One of the finest politicians Scotland has had. Such proposals would find favour in both Scotland and other areas of the UK. However that would entail compromise, something the SNP would not countenance as it doesn't fit with the indepenence-only narrative.
Devolution was delivered harmoniously (by and large) under Labour and it's a shame Corbyn set their electability back so far (while Starmer does not really convince as PM in waiting) otherwise these sort of sensible strategies might gain some traction.

What proposals?


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[degenerated]

What proposals?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAnd when he does get round to making these proposals how does he propose to guarantee they would be implemented this time.

[Ozyhibby]

And when he does get round to making these proposals how does he propose to guarantee they would be implemented this time.

All it will do is highlight how the union doesn’t work in Scotland. Even if we all loved the idea, people in England have zero interest in devolution, therefor it can’t work.


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[grunt]

Brown, as ever, speaks a lot of sense. One of the finest politicians Scotland has had. Such proposals would find favour in both Scotland and other areas of the UK. However that would entail compromise, something the SNP would not countenance as it doesn't fit with the indepenence-only narrative.
Devolution was delivered harmoniously (by and large) under Labour and it's a shame Corbyn set their electability back so far (while Starmer does not really convince as PM in waiting) otherwise these sort of sensible strategies might gain some traction.
Any proposals for devo-max that Brown may come up with (haven't seen any yet) are doomed to fail. It's not only the Scottish Government that will not countenance compromise:


Boris Johnson said devolution is a "disaster", and his former chief advisor confirmed he wants to "reverse" it.


Boris Johnson's Leader of the Commons and Cabinet member, Jacob Rees-Mogg, recently said that devolution amounted to "vandalism" and must be undone.

[Hibernian Verse]

Alba flyers through the door in Dunfermline yesterday and using "we are led by ALEX SALMOND" as a plus point.

[Bostonhibby]

Alba flyers through the door in Dunfermline yesterday and using "we are led by ALEX SALMOND" as a plus point.In an attempt to get xmas sales back to pre Covid levels turkeys are doing early door to door tasting sessions.

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[JeMeSouviens]

Alba flyers through the door in Dunfermline yesterday and using "we are led by ALEX SALMOND" as a plus point.

It's bizarre. Also the "womens' rights" campaigners (aka gender criticals) on twitter backing Alba, essentially a vehicle for the vanity of a guy whose own lawyer described him as a "sex pest" and an "objectionable bully". :confused:

[greenginger]

It's bizarre. Also the "womens' rights" campaigners (aka gender criticals) on twitter backing Alba, essentially a vehicle for the vanity of a guy whose own lawyer described him as a "sex pest" and an "objectionable bully". :confused:

Very complimentary description of the man who lead the SNP for over 20 years.

[Kato]

Very complimentary description of the man who lead the SNP for over 20 years.Lashing out with zero substance.

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[greenginger]

T
Lashing out with zero substance.

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Lashing out eh, mild criticism more like but obviously hurts your sensitivity.

Zero substance eh ? So you think the whole Salmon accusations were a stunt by Nicola and her cohorts to damage the man ?

A Stunt that cost us tax payers north of £700,000.

[Since90+2]

T

Lashing out eh, mild criticism more like but obviously hurts your sensitivity.

Zero substance eh ? So you think the whole Salmon accusations were a stunt by Nicola and her cohorts to damage the man ?

A Stunt that cost us tax payers north of £700,000.

That's some jump you've taken with that post. Anyone would think you're just looking for an argument.

[Hibrandenburg]

That's some jump you've taken with that post. Anyone would think you're just looking for an argument.No, can't be that because that would be trolling.

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[DaveF]

Pfft...what's 700k compared to the billions nicked by your Tory pals during all those covid contracts...

[JeMeSouviens]

Very complimentary description of the man who lead the SNP for over 20 years.

I'm glad that kind of sleazebuckety abuse of power by men in positions of authority is no longer tolerated, tbh. (Except in Downing St, obvs).

[greenginger]

I'm glad that kind of sleazebuckety abuse of power by men in positions of authority is no longer tolerated, tbh. (Except in Downing St, obvs).

Never forget the Salmon sleazebucket was your party leader for 20 years and an icon of the SNP.

His legacy endures.

[greenginger]

Pfft...what's 700k compared to the billions nicked by your Tory pals during all those covid contracts...

What Tory pals ?

Ram it up your a**e

[JeMeSouviens]

Never forget the Salmon sleazebucket was your party leader for 20 years and an icon of the SNP.

His legacy endures.

I've voted for SNP and Green in recent years (and Lab and Margo and even Lib once historically) so he's not "my" anything. Good illustration that independence is not about any one person, irrespective of their ego. :aok:

[greenginger]

That's some jump you've taken with that post. Anyone would think you're just looking for an argument.

No jump whatsoever . Kato claims there is no substance in Salmon accusations , so I point out the Scot gov shambles cost the tax payer £700,000.

Logical progression.

[JeMeSouviens]

No jump whatsoever . Kato claims there is no substance in Salmon accusations , so I point out the Scot gov shambles cost the tax payer £700,000.

Logical progression.

I imagine Kato will be along shortly to point out the end of the stick you've missed again. Although if you wanted to make his point for him, "ram it up your ****" is about as :top marks as you could have managed. :greengrin

[Kato]

T

Lashing out eh, mild criticism more like but obviously hurts your sensitivity.

Zero substance eh ? So you think the whole Salmon accusations were a stunt by Nicola and her cohorts to damage the man ?

A Stunt that cost us tax payers north of £700,000.I don't know if it was a stunt or not. The guy, who I never voted for, was revealed as a sex-pest so maybe there was more to other allegations but given the were never proven in court then he was not guilty of rape.

Yes, 700,00 of tax payers money is very concerning.

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[Kato]

I imagine Kato will be along shortly to point out the end of the stick you've missed again. Although if you wanted to make his point for him, "ram it up your ****" is about as :top marks as you could have managed. :greengrinIs there any point?

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[Kato]

What Tory pals ?

Ram it up your a**eLucid argument.

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[greenginger]

I've voted for SNP and Green in recent years (and Lab and Margo and even Lib once historically) so he's not "my" anything. Good illustration that independence is not about any one person, irrespective of their ego. :aok:

I’ve voted Lib-Dem, Lib, Tory, Lab and even SNP back in the 90’s . Also voted for a few independents as well. But on here I’m labelled a Tory cos I care to disagree with some posters take things.

[JeMeSouviens]

Is there any point?

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Depends on the stick probably, I just thought it was nice "lashing out with zero substance".

[greenginger]

Lucid argument.

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Fact, no argument required.

[JeMeSouviens]

I’ve voted Lib-Dem, Lib, Tory, Lab and even SNP back in the 90’s . Also voted for a few independents as well. But on here I’m labelled a Tory cos I care to disagree with some posters take things.

What do you call someone who comes on here to defend the Tories? Cap seems to fit.

I'm happy enough to be called a "Nat" etc. on the basis of favouring indy.

[DaveF]

What Tory pals ?

Ram it up your a**e

And to think you called another poster sensitive 😂

[He's here!]

Any proposals for devo-max that Brown may come up with (haven't seen any yet) are doomed to fail. It's not only the Scottish Government that will not countenance compromise:

Hence why I said it's a shame Labour remain so far from government, although a new Tory PM (Sunak?) may be more open to compromise.

Ideally a centre-leftish Labour govt would be the way forward with this sort of reform. Blair's Labour pretty much swept the boards in Scotland when they came to power, wiping out the Tories.

[WeeRussell]

Hence why I said it's a shame Labour remain so far from government, although a new Tory PM (Sunak?) may be more open to compromise.

Ideally a centre-leftish Labour govt would be the way forward with this sort of reform. Blair's Labour pretty much swept the boards in Scotland when they came to power, wiping out the Tories.

See, I think there’s significantly more chance of a government of that description in an independent Scotland. The UK electorate have shown itself to be the other side of centre consistently for a number of years now, and Scottish Labour stand absolutely no chance in the current arrangement.

[He's here!]

All it will do is highlight how the union doesn’t work in Scotland. Even if we all loved the idea, people in England have zero interest in devolution, therefor it can’t work.


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Do they really have zero interest? I think it's a while since it was tested but IIRC polling on that issue saw a majority in England in favour of some form of devolution.

[Moulin Yarns]

Do they really have zero interest? I think it's a while since it was tested but IIRC polling on that issue saw a majority in England in favour of some form of devolution.

Can't remember when but was there not a referendum a while ago so it's the settled will of the people

[degenerated]

Can't remember when but was there not a referendum a while ago so it's the settled will of the peopleWas it a once in a lifetime referendum though.

[Moulin Yarns]

Was it a once in a lifetime referendum though.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_North_East_England_devolution_referendum

[degenerated]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_North_East_England_devolution_referendumI had meant to put a smiley face on my post :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Do they really have zero interest? I think it's a while since it was tested but IIRC polling on that issue saw a majority in England in favour of some form of devolution.

English people would like an English parliament with equivalent devolution to the Scottish parliament. Most English pols/commentariat say this would never work and don't want it, for reasons I'm not especially clear about. I think mostly because it goes against the grain of the all-powerful centralised Westminster/Whitehall axis they're used to.

Scottish Labour people like Broon would like England broken up into devolved regions probably with a bit less power than the Scottish parliament because why have something simple, fair and symmetrical when you can come up with a wizard, overcomplicated wheeze that nobody actually wants?

Chances of this flying - less than zero.

I should say, that a proper federal arrangement of Scotland, Wales, NI and the English regions would probably be really good for the UK. But there's no chance that'll be what's on offer and even less chance of it being popularly accepted in England.

[Ozyhibby]

English people would like an English parliament with equivalent devolution to the Scottish parliament. Most English pols/commentariat say this would never work and don't want it, for reasons I'm not especially clear about. I think mostly because it goes against the grain of the all-powerful centralised Westminster/Whitehall axis they're used to.

Scottish Labour people like Broon would like England broken up into devolved regions probably with a bit less power than the Scottish parliament because why have something simple, fair and symmetrical when you can come up with a wizard, overcomplicated wheeze that nobody actually wants?

Chances of this flying - less than zero.

I should say, that a proper federal arrangement of Scotland, Wales, NI and the English regions would probably be really good for the UK. But there's no chance that'll be what's on offer and even less chance of it being popularly accepted in England.

A properly devolved UK with only defence and foreign affairs held at Westminster might have interested me but there is zero chance of it ever happening. And it still leaves Scotland out the EU.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I had meant to put a smiley face on my post :greengrin

Sorry, I knew, just had to look at it.

[He's here!]

Can't remember when but was there not a referendum a while ago so it's the settled will of the people

Not sure I understand your reply. I was talking about a form of devolution for England.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure I understand your reply. I was talking about a form of devolution for England.

Yep, and there was one, 2004 I think. Link above to the wiki page about it!!!


78% against it in North East England!!!

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/03/the-kremlins-illegal-war-stresses-the-need-for-all-nations-to-stand-up-for-democracy

NS in the New Statesman.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220323/0fd1b900d24137e95ead47f2f7113860.jpg

As the UK starts to reduce its trade with its neighbours, the SNP will have a great offer of restarting this for business in Scotland.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220325/8b24c834d2209282525b003e3547cac1.jpg

Lucky you don’t get procurement scandals at Westminster.[emoji849][emoji23]
This one doesn’t even have bad intentions at its heart.


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[greenginger]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220325/8b24c834d2209282525b003e3547cac1.jpg

Lucky you don’t get procurement scandals at Westminster.[emoji849][emoji23]
This one doesn’t even have bad intentions at its heart.


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Deflection !! :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220325/8b24c834d2209282525b003e3547cac1.jpg

Lucky you don’t get procurement scandals at Westminster.[emoji849][emoji23]
This one doesn’t even have bad intentions at its heart.


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Classic Scottish cringe story.