Scottish Independence

[Stairway 2 7]

Pretty sure you have to go Scottish pound first before Euro anyway. And even if we do have to give commitment to join Euro, it appears the timetable for introduction is entirely in Scotland’s hands. We can stall it as long as we want/need.


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But didn't she say she was leaning towards keeping Scottish pound, the debate is pegged or not. The best answer is just to say we'll decide post independence, it's a poisoned chalice

[Since90+2]

Not really you pay a conversion fee or a poor rate in most transactions when you purchase in a foreign currency

And? Does that stop people using their card in Europe or America for example? Of course not, most people these days just use their card. The days of everyone going out and taking 2000 euros at the currency exchange are gone, you'll get the odd person doing it but most just use their cards.

In relation to the independence debate it's a red herring.

[Stairway 2 7]

And? Does that stop people using their card in Europe or America for example? Of course not, most people these days just use their card. The days of everyone going out and taking 2000 euros at the currency exchange are gone, you'll get the odd person doing it but most just use their cards.

In relation to the independence debate it's a red herring.

Finance is alot bigger than getting charged when you use your card in England, like trading with our single biggest trading partner. I'm not saying that negative outways the positives because I don't think it does. But it's very real and to say otherwise is daft

[Since90+2]

Finance is alot bigger than getting charged when you use your card in England, like trading with our single biggest trading partner. I'm not saying that negative outways the positives because I don't think it does. But it's very real and to say otherwise is daft

I'm aware of that, my point is people are taking about people spending actual Euro notes in Scotland, it's a moot point. Won't impact on the independence debate one bit as cash is being phased out.

[degenerated]

Pretty sure you have to go Scottish pound first before Euro anyway. And even if we do have to give commitment to join Euro, it appears the timetable for introduction is entirely in Scotland’s hands. We can stall it as long as we want/need.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's assuming the EU don't adopt, despite all historic precedent, a special unique position for dealing with Scotland as the unionists would try and have us believe.

[archie]

That's assuming the EU don't adopt, despite all historic precedent, a special unique position for dealing with Scotland as the unionists would try and have us believe.

I don't think anyone, unionist or nationalist is arguing that. Both sides will amplify or downplay as suits them. But the reality is that we would have to meet the Copenhagen criteria and commit to the Euro. This will require economic decisions to be made that can't just be waved away and will have real world consequences.

[Jack]

Was the UK not "committed" to joining the Euro?

Hardly a comment was made about that, by either the UK or the EU, from one year to the next.

[James310]

Was the UK not "committed" to joining the Euro?

Hardly a comment was made about that, by either the UK or the EU, from one year to the next.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM:l25060


Why has the United Kingdom not adopted the euro? When the Maastricht Treaty was concluded in 1992, the United Kingdom was granted an opt-out clause, meaning that it was not required to participate in the third stage of economic and monetary union (EMU) and consequently introduce the euro. This Protocol specifies the provisions of the opt-out.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think anyone, unionist or nationalist is arguing that. Both sides will amplify or downplay as suits them. But the reality is that we would have to meet the Copenhagen criteria and commit to the Euro. This will require economic decisions to be made that can't just be waved away and will have real world consequences.

Which economic decisions will need to be made?


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[archie]

Which economic decisions will need to be made?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalki'm not a big fan of wikipedia, but there's a good summary here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_convergence_criteria

In particular I think the measures to be taken to meet the budget deficit and debt to GDP ratio ratio requirements will have a significant impact. That's not to suggest that it's a reason not to join, but I think it will constrain what a Scottish Government could do on the economy.

[archie]

Was the UK not "committed" to joining the Euro?

Hardly a comment was made about that, by either the UK or the EU, from one year to the next.No. Gordon Brown ruled it out.

[Ozyhibby]

i'm not a big fan of wikipedia, but there's a good summary here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_convergence_criteria

In particular I think the measures to be taken to meet the budget deficit and debt to GDP ratio ratio requirements will have a significant impact. That's not to suggest that it's a reason not to join, but I think it will constrain what a Scottish Government could do on the economy.

Given that we appear not to be taxing companies like Shell at all under the current arrangements, closing Scotlands deficit might be easier than we think.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221028/f8a873a2f4c63555409797e2cc36ac58.jpg
Nice little spot there beside Ireland and Cyprus would do nicely.[emoji106]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221028/f8a873a2f4c63555409797e2cc36ac58.jpg
Nice little spot there beside Ireland and Cyprus would do nicely.[emoji106]


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Actually, prob more likely Bulgaria, Croatia and Romania to start with.


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[archie]

Given that we appear not to be taxing companies like Shell at all under the current arrangements, closing Scotlands deficit might be easier than we think.


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Is this a joke?

[Ozyhibby]

Is this a joke?

https://twitter.com/zarahsultana/status/1585674288803225600?s=46&t=yBjPLv_GJTlxdUD0yrqW6A


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[archie]

https://twitter.com/zarahsultana/status/1585674288803225600?s=46&t=yBjPLv_GJTlxdUD0yrqW6A


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I'm really confused. The SNP said a windfall tax on oil companies wasn't fair.

[grunt]

I'm really confused. The SNP said a windfall tax on oil companies wasn't fair.Keep up! :greengrin

They u-turned on that policy earlier this year.

[Santa Cruz]

I'm really confused. The SNP said a windfall tax on oil companies wasn't fair.

Was it not that they were looking for reassurance about the tax not having a negative impact on workers in that industry? I'm not their biggest fan, but seem to recall them wanting to go further with this to include the major supermarkets that made massive profits at the height of the pandemic. That would be a fair way to create more revenue and remove the added financial burden from the public imo.

[ronaldo7]

Was it not that they were looking for reassurance about the tax not having a negative impact on workers in that industry? I'm not their biggest fan, but seem to recall them wanting to go further with this to include the major supermarkets that made massive profits at the height of the pandemic. That would be a fair way to create more revenue and remove the added financial burden from the public imo.

Yup. Also something about a just transition.

[archie]

Keep up! :greengrin

They u-turned on that policy earlier this year.So really consistent then.

[grunt]

So really consistent then.
Well as others have described, it wasn't so much a u-turn as a policy clarification.
I don't think you could seriously make a case for the SNP being against taxation of high earners, be they businesses or individuals.

[archie]

Well as others have described, it wasn't so much a u-turn as a policy clarification.
I don't think you could seriously make a case for the SNP being against taxation of high earners, be they businesses or individuals.Seems like a case of 'if you don't like our principles we have other ones.'

[grunt]

Seems like a case of 'if you don't like our principles we have other ones.'


I don't think you could seriously make a case for the SNP being against taxation of high earners, be they businesses or individuals.
:confused:

[Kato]

Seems like a case of 'if you don't like our principles we have other ones.'Is tax policy a "principle" to be held onto no matter what or is it a fiscal tool that moves and flexes with the state of the economy and the weight of where finance waxes and wanes?





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[James310]

Not really up for debate anymore.

https://twitter.com/ka****t/status/1586630730804764672?t=0osWZKXZvfgmUdcJErh86Q&s=19

https://archive.ph/6hlJ9

"EU official spokeswoman: Members must commit to join the euro - but timetable open"

Named official source in the EU being very clear, you have to commit to the Euro. You may well never actually introduce it, but you have to commit to it and that's in black and white and now confirmed by the EU officially.

That's the opposite of what Nicola Sturgeon has said, it's a massive strategic own goal to already flag to the EU you have no intention to commit to the Euro.

For the ones that defend the SNP at all costs, you know they do make mistakes. This is one, they are not being honest with people about what would be involved.

[Ozyhibby]

Not really up for debate anymore.

https://twitter.com/ka****t/status/1586630730804764672?t=0osWZKXZvfgmUdcJErh86Q&s=19

https://archive.ph/6hlJ9

"EU official spokeswoman: Members must commit to join the euro - but timetable open"

Named official source in the EU being very clear, you have to commit to the Euro. You may well never actually introduce it, but you have to commit to it and that's in black and white and now confirmed by the EU officially.

That's the opposite of what Nicola Sturgeon has said, it's a massive strategic own goal to already flag to the EU you have no intention to commit to the Euro.

For the ones that defend the SNP at all costs, you know they do make mistakes. This is one, they are not being honest with people about what would be involved.

Isn’t that what we’ve been saying all along? Individual countries are in charge of the timetable.


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[J-C]

Isn’t that what we’ve been saying all along? Individual countries are in charge of the timetable.


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5 pages of argument to then realise he was wrong. 🤣🤣🤣

[Hibrandenburg]

Not really up for debate anymore.

https://twitter.com/ka****t/status/1586630730804764672?t=0osWZKXZvfgmUdcJErh86Q&s=19

https://archive.ph/6hlJ9

"EU official spokeswoman: Members must commit to join the euro - but timetable open"

Named official source in the EU being very clear, you have to commit to the Euro. You may well never actually introduce it, but you have to commit to it and that's in black and white and now confirmed by the EU officially.

That's the opposite of what Nicola Sturgeon has said, it's a massive strategic own goal to already flag to the EU you have no intention to commit to the Euro.

For the ones that defend the SNP at all costs, you know they do make mistakes. This is one, they are not being honest with people about what would be involved.

Great, you've finally understood what nearly everyone on here has been trying to tell you.

[James310]

Great, you've finally understood what nearly everyone on here has been trying to tell you.

Lol. Sure.

[Since90+2]

Not really up for debate anymore.

https://twitter.com/ka****t/status/1586630730804764672?t=0osWZKXZvfgmUdcJErh86Q&s=19

https://archive.ph/6hlJ9

"EU official spokeswoman: Members must commit to join the euro - but timetable open"

Named official source in the EU being very clear, you have to commit to the Euro. You may well never actually introduce it, but you have to commit to it and that's in black and white and now confirmed by the EU officially.

That's the opposite of what Nicola Sturgeon has said, it's a massive strategic own goal to already flag to the EU you have no intention to commit to the Euro.

For the ones that defend the SNP at all costs, you know they do make mistakes. This is one, they are not being honest with people about what would be involved.

You've made a right mess of this. It's essentially what people have been saying.

Taking a bit of a L with this one.

[James310]

If I have made such a mess show me where the SNP have ever committed to the Euro? The last economic paper a few weeks ago never did.

Anyone? 😂😂😂😂

[James310]

Isn’t that what we’ve been saying all along? Individual countries are in charge of the timetable.


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So where have the SNP committed to the Euro? You have evidence of this?

[James310]

5 pages of argument to then realise he was wrong. 🤣🤣🤣

Where have the SNP committed to the Euro?

[Ozyhibby]

So it’s James contention the NS is going to turn down EU membership because she won’t commit to the Euro?
Personally I think we will commit to the Euro but take our sweet time about it.


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[James310]

So it’s James contention the NS is going to turn down EU membership because she won’t commit to the Euro?
Personally I think we will commit to the Euro but take our sweet time about it.


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You have a great habit of telling people what they are or in this case aren't saying.

If I am wrong you and the gang can put me in my place by showing me where Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP commit to the Euro. It's now from a named official spokesperson from the EU, you have to commit to the Euro.

Clear it up and show me where the SNP have done that?

You even admit it above as you suggest they may commit in the future.

[Ozyhibby]

You have a great habit of telling people what they are or in this case aren't saying.

If I am wrong you and the gang can put me in my place by showing me where Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP commit to the Euro. It's now from a named official spokesperson from the EU, you have to commit to the Euro.

Clear it up and show me where the SNP have done that?

Have the SNP individually singled out every single bit of the criteria for joining the EU and said they will do it? I doubt it. What they have said is that we will join the EU and that we will meet all the criteria. That’s enough for me.


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[James310]

Have the SNP individually singled out every single bit of the criteria for joining the EU and said they will do it? I doubt it. What they have said is that we will join the EU and that we will meet all the criteria. That’s enough for me.


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I thought I was wrong? So I am not wrong, I am actually 100% correct. The currency policy was laid out in the last paper.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/building-new-scotland-stronger-economy-independence/


In does not commit to the Euro, so are you saying we are expecting *yet* another currency policy soon? Bit of a shambles really isn't it, don't know if they are coming or going.

So you can't show me anywhere at all where they commit to the Euro?

[Ozyhibby]

I thought I was wrong? So I am not wrong, I am actually 100% correct. The currency policy was laid out in the last paper.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/building-new-scotland-stronger-economy-independence/


In does not commit to the Euro, so are you saying we are expecting *yet* another currency policy soon? Bit of a shambles really isn't it, don't know if they are coming or going.

So you can't show me anywhere at all where they commit to the Euro?

They have committed to join the EU. And they will do everything they have to do to honour that commitment.


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[The Modfather]

I thought I was wrong? So I am not wrong, I am actually 100% correct. The currency policy was laid out in the last paper.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/building-new-scotland-stronger-economy-independence/


In does not commit to the Euro, so are you saying we are expecting another currency policy soon? Bit of a shambles really isn't it, don't know if they are coming or going.

So you can't show me anywhere at all where they commit to the Euro?

Good thing there’s nothing shambolic about the running of the country in the here and now and we have the clear vision of a managed decline to look forward to. If there was any uncertainty I’d trust you to scrutinise it to the same degree you do independence.

You’re making a big play of “committing to the euro”, but you don’t mention the part in your post that also says “you may well never actually introduce it (the euro)”. Almost as of it’s in your interest to conflate “committing to the euro” as the same as the euro being our post independence currency.

As someone in favour of independence I still think a lot of work/clarity is required on currency but I don’t expect that until the official campaign starts. I want to see the options set out, the honest pros and cons of each option and then for the people to vote on what option we want to take forward, after the referendum.

[weecounty hibby]

The Scottish government have committed to rejoining the EU. Whatever caveats are put in place for that will be followed. The transition from pound to Scottish pound must cone first vefore committing to joining the Euro at some time in the future. It looks like this is the last straw that the unionists have to cling to. EVERYTHING we were told would happen on becoming an Independent country has actually come to pass by staying in the union, every promise we were given to remain in the union has been broken. There is no argument to be had anymore so they cling to the Scotland can't rejoin the EU argument while ignoring the fact that everything they say about that is constantly shown to be incorrect. We even have links this morning showing that to be incorrect that somehow means that they unionists are correct. Desperate

[Moulin Yarns]

https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/euro/enlargement-euro-area/who-can-join-and-when_en


Who can join and when?
All EU Member States, except Denmark, are required to adopt the euro and join the euro area. To do this they must meet certain conditions known as 'convergence criteria'.

Why are there conditions for entry to the euro area?
An accession country that plans to join the Union must align many aspects of its society – social, economic and political – with those of EU Member States. Much of this alignment is aimed at ensuring that an accession country can operate successfully within the Union’s single market for goods, services, capital and labour – accession is a process of integration.

Adopting the euro and joining the euro area takes integration a step further – it is a process of much closer economic integration with the other euro area Member States. Adopting the euro also demands extensive preparations. In particular, it requires economic and legal convergence.

Why are there conditions for entry to the euro area?
Adopting the single currency is a crucial step in a Member State's economy. Its exchange rate is irrevocably fixed and monetary policy is transferred to the hands of the European Central Bank, which conducts it independently for the entire euro area. The economic entry conditions are designed to ensure that a Member State's economy is sufficiently prepared for adoption of the single currency and can integrate smoothly into the monetary regime of the euro area without risk of disruption for the Member State or the euro area as a whole. In short, the economic entry criteria are intended to ensure economic convergence – they are known as the 'convergence criteria' (or 'Maastricht criteria') and were agreed by the EU Member States in 1991 as part of the preparations for introduction of the euro.

In addition to meeting the economic convergence criteria, a euro area candidate country must make changes to national laws and rules, notably governing its national central bank and other monetary issues, in order to make them compatible with the Treaty. In particular, national central banks must be independent, such that the monetary policy decided by the European Central Bank is also independent.

National target dates for adoption of the euro
The Treaty does not specify a particular timetable for joining the euro area, but leaves it to Member States to develop their own strategies for meeting the condition for euro adoption. Seven of the 13 Member States who joined the EU since 2004 have already joined the euro area, most recently Lithuania on 1 January 2015.


Straight from the EU without the interpretation of journalists.

[James310]

They have committed to join the EU. And they will do everything they have to do to honour that commitment.


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So that's no then. 👍

[James310]

https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/euro/enlargement-euro-area/who-can-join-and-when_en


Who can join and when?
All EU Member States, except Denmark, are required to adopt the euro and join the euro area.


😂

[CropleyWasGod]

😂

"The Treaty does not specify a particular timetable"

[James310]

"The Treaty does not specify a particular timetable"

Yes that's correct.

But where is the commitment to the Euro? Was it in the policy paper on *checks notes* currency published a few weeks ago?

Did it say we will commit to the Euro as our currency?

So do you think yet another currency policy is still to come despite publishing one a few weeks ago? And Nicola Sturgeon actually ruling it out, she will now U turn on that and eventually announce the plan is to adopt the Euro?

[J-C]

Where have the SNP committed to the Euro?


How can they possibly commit to the Euro when we're not even in the EU yet, jeez give me strength. This can only happen once we have independence and when we go back into the EU, hence why our first commitment is to use the Scottish pound, hopefully that isn't too complicated for your wee brain.

[Since90+2]

Yes that's correct.

But where is the commitment to the Euro? Was it in the policy paper on *checks notes* currency published a few weeks ago?

Did it say we will commit to the Euro as our currency?

So do you think yet another currency policy is still to come despite publishing one a few weeks ago? And Nicola Sturgeon actually ruling it out, she will now U turn on that and eventually announce the plan is to adopt the Euro?

Jeez man, you've been made to look a bit silly with this, accept you were wrong and move on, or in other words stop digging.

[weecounty hibby]

How can they possibly commit to the Euro when we're not even in the EU yet, jeez give me strength. This can only happen once we have independence and when we go back into the EU, hence why our first commitment is to use the Scottish pound, hopefully that isn't too complicated for your wee brain.
Don't underestimate the unionists. They totally get it, they understand exactly how it works but any kind of confusion is good for them. But it is just about the last straw being clutched at.

[James310]

Jeez man, you've been made to look a bit silly with this, accept you were wrong and move on, or in other words stop digging.

Where am I wrong?

[James310]

How can they possibly commit to the Euro when we're not even in the EU yet, jeez give me strength. This can only happen once we have independence and when we go back into the EU, hence why our first commitment is to use the Scottish pound, hopefully that isn't too complicated for your wee brain.

And the personal abuse starts, what a surprise.

[Hibernian Verse]

And the personal abuse starts, what a surprise.

I completely disagree with 95% of what you post but you are correct to call that out. Poor from JC who is usually a lot better.

Politics is an emotive topic but as soon as people start throwing insults the point is lost.

[James310]

I completely disagree with 95% of what you post but you are correct to call that out. Poor from JC who is usually a lot better.

Politics is an emotive topic but as soon as people start throwing insults the point is lost.

It's always the same though, it's really quite sad from what I assume is an adult.

[J-C]

And the personal abuse starts, what a surprise.

You've made a cock up here James, you were adamant that Scotland had to join the Euro immediately upon rejoining the EU after independence, thus questioning why we were going to use the Scottish pound, your post just shows that a new country joining the EU has to meet criteria 1st of all before joining the Euro zone, which could take many years and this is the reason why SNP have never mentioned the Euro in its papers. Every independence supporter was pointing this out but you argued against it like a dog with a bone, you then post a link which points out exactly what we were all saying and you still argue your case even when knowingly wrong. Give it up mate.

Sorry for calling your brain wee btw.

[James310]

You've made a cock up here James, you were adamant that Scotland had to join the Euro immediately upon rejoining the EU after independence, thus questioning why we were going to use the Scottish pound, your post just shows that a new country joining the EU has to meet criteria 1st of all before joining the Euro zone, which could take many years and this is the reason why SNP have never mentioned the Euro in its papers. Every independence supporter was pointing this out but you argued against it like a dog with a bone, you then post a link which points out exactly what we were all saying and you still argue your case even when knowingly wrong. Give it up mate.

My wee brain can't compute that.

I was always clear it's about the commitment to tue Euro. Something the SNP haven't done.

[weecounty hibby]

I meant to add about confusion being the friend of the union. Look at how the BBC reported Ross question at FMQ. Full clip of him asking and using an unnamed source but never showed the FMs response. She once again slapped him around the chamber, quotes 4 different named sources and then rhymed off the EU states who currently don't use the euro, and yes i believe that was deliberate.

[weecounty hibby]

My wee brain can't compute that.

I was always clear it's about the commitment to tue Euro. Something the SNP haven't done.

But they have committed to rejoining the EU and the first step to join is having our own currency? Which is what has been committed to. Straw clutching, as I say. It's getting desperate

[greenlex]

Yes that's correct.

But where is the commitment to the Euro? Was it in the policy paper on *checks notes* currency published a few weeks ago?

Did it say we will commit to the Euro as our currency?

So do you think yet another currency policy is still to come despite publishing one a few weeks ago? And Nicola Sturgeon actually ruling it out, she will now U turn on that and eventually announce the plan is to adopt the Euro?
I’m not sure they have officially committed to join the EU yet? If they have then that in itself is a de facto commitment to the euro eventually. It’s not really either a big deal nor the independence hindrance you wish it to be. You’d be better saving yourself time and embarrassment, chill out and let it go. As a debate it’s not a great tool.

[James310]

But they have committed to rejoining the EU and the first step to join is having our own currency? Which is what has been committed to. Straw clutching, as I say. It's getting desperate

But you have to commit to the EURO! Which they haven't done on their currency paper a few weeks ago.

[J-C]

My wee brain can't compute that.

I was always clear it's about the commitment to tue Euro. Something the SNP haven't done.


You cannot commit to something like that until you firstly get independence and have your own currency in place, only then will you be allowed to join the EU and then the Euro onca all the criteria has been met, this could be many years down the line. Surely first and foremost for the SNP is to gain independence and set out the currency we will use as an independent country, only then can we apply to join the EU.

Surely even you must understand that.

[James310]

People can spin it as they please. You have to commit to the Euro which is something the SNP haven't done, infact they have gone out of their way to say they won't.

So yet another currency policy is now due.

[Moulin Yarns]

😂

National target dates for adoption of the euro
The Treaty does not specify a particular timetable for joining the euro area, but leaves it to Member States to develop their own strategies for meeting the condition for euro adoption.
👍😁

[J-C]

But you have to commit to the EURO! Which they haven't done on their currency paper a few weeks ago.


Again! how can you commit to something until independence is gained and we meet all the criteria, jeez man one step at a time.

[Hibrandenburg]

But you have to commit to the EURO! Which they haven't done on their currency paper a few weeks ago.

In other news, Bonnyrigg Rose have committed to building a 7 thousand seat stand before they get promoted to the SPFL.

[James310]

Again! how can you commit to something until independence is gained and we meet all the criteria, jeez man one step at a time.

Why commit to a Central Bank? Might as well wait until Independence. Not a great argument.

[greenlex]

Why commit to a Central Bank? Might as well wait until Independence. Not a great argument.
Because under independence we will need it.We don’t need the euro when independent. Talking of not great arguments give it up man.

[Hibrandenburg]

Why commit to a Central Bank? Might as well wait until Independence. Not a great argument.

Why do babies learn to crawl before they buy high performance sports cars?

[James310]

Because under independence we will need it.We don’t need the euro when independent. Talking of not great arguments give it up man.

Didn't last time in 2014. Was no plan to establish one.

[Ozyhibby]

Didn't last time in 2014. Was no plan to establish one.

Lesson learnt.[emoji106]


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[grunt]

https://youtu.be/ohDB5gbtaEQ

[Jack]

So where have the SNP committed to the Euro? You have evidence of this?

The SNP don't have to say it.

By joining the EU Scotland must commit to join the Euro ... in their own sweet time.

That's all the evidence that is required.

[James310]

The SNP don't have to say it.

By joining the EU Scotland must commit to join the Euro ... in their own sweet time.

That's all the evidence that is required.

So why did Nicola Sturgeon say this 2 weeks ago when asked about the Euro?

"I don't think it is the right option for Scotland"

Is that the words of someone committing to the Euro? Sounds like the opposite to me, you don't commit to something by saying it's not the right option.

This article backs up my points about what a muddled policy it is.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-s-euro-muddle

[CropleyWasGod]

So why did Nicola Sturgeon say this 2 weeks ago when asked about the Euro?

"I don't think it is the right option for Scotland"

Is that the words of someone committing to the Euro? Sounds like the opposite to me, you don't commit to something by saying it's not the right option.

This article backs up my points about what a muddled policy it is.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/nicola-sturgeon-s-euro-muddle

You know what I'm going to say here. Again.

It's not the SNP's call. That would be up to the electorate after independence.

Again.

[Keith_M]

I really admire the multiple and persistent attempts to explain something to a poster that is clearly determined not to understand, but thought I really should remind you of this saying...


"There's none so blind as those who will not see."


Note that it doesn't say can not, but will not, i.e determined not to see.

[Hibrandenburg]

I really admire the multiple and persistent attempts to explain something to a poster that is clearly determined not to understand, but thought I really should remind you of this saying...


"There's none so blind as those who will not see."


Note that it doesn't say can not, but will not, i.e determined not to see.

I think you're Wallysplaining :wink:

[James310]

You know what I'm going to say here. Again.

It's not the SNP's call. That would be up to the electorate after independence.

Again.

You could say that about almost everything. Why even mention joining the EU at all, it can all be decided after Independence. It's a muddled policy as that article states.

You know it's ok to admit the SNP sometimes get it wrong, they won't hunt you down.

I see you avoided the question though as well.

[James310]

I really admire the multiple and persistent attempts to explain something to a poster that is clearly determined not to understand, but thought I really should remind you of this saying...


"There's none so blind as those who will not see."


Note that it doesn't say can not, but will not, i.e determined not to see.

I admire the constant deflection, and ignoring the question.

How do you commit to something you have said it's not the right option for Scotland? How do you commit to a new currency when you published your currency strategy 2 weeks ago that has zero mention of committing to the Euro.

Happy to go all day on this, it's clearly a muddled policy that doesn't make sense.

[CropleyWasGod]

You could say that about almost everything. Why even mention joining the EU at all, it can all be decided after Independence. It's a muddled policy as that article states.

You know it's ok to admit the SNP sometimes get it wrong, they won't hunt you down.

I see you avoided the question though as well.

Sorry, what question did you ask me?

And I'm not a spokesperson for the SNP, so the word "admit" doesn't apply to me.

[James310]

Sorry, what question did you ask me?

You replied to my post with the question. It was in that.

Your argument it will be up to the electorate could be said about everything, if you are building a plan for Independence and want people to vote for it you don't leave it blank and say vote for Indy and we will sort everything out later. Although I guess that worked for Brexit. If you sell Indy on joining the EU there should be honesty about what that means.

[CropleyWasGod]

You replied to my post with the question. It was in that.

Your argument it will be up to the electorate could be said about everything, if you are building a plan for Independence and want people to vote for it you don't leave it blank and say vote for Indy and we will sort everything out later. Although I guess that worked for Brexit. If you sell Indy on joining the EU there should be honesty about what that means.

It's my view, and expectation,that NS won't be around by the time any vote on EU membership comes around. The chances are someone with a more positive view on the Euro will be our FM, whether that's from the SNP or otherwise.

[James310]

It's my view, and expectation,that NS won't be around by the time any vote on EU membership comes around. The chances are someone with a more positive view on the Euro will be our FM, whether that's from the SNP or otherwise.

Do you think the statement she made "it's not the right option for Scotland" is at odds with the EU policy of committing to the Euro?

[CropleyWasGod]

Do you think the statement she made "it's not the right option for Scotland" is at odds with the EU policy of adopting the Euro?

I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

cf Sweden

[James310]

I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

cf Sweden

Is that a yes or no? Or something in-between?

[marinello59]

Do you think the statement she made "it's not the right option for Scotland" is at odds with the EU policy of committing to the Euro?

It is.

[Ozyhibby]

Do you think the statement she made "it's not the right option for Scotland" is at odds with the EU policy of committing to the Euro?

I think the EU would agree with her. I think they would like us to have our own currency first before any move towards the Euro. One thing at a time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

It is.

Thanks, it is.

But you seem to be a bit more free thinking so you can probably see it, others though just won't accept any criticism at all of anything SNP.

[Glory Lurker]

I'm all up for using the Euro, not that that really changes things at all :-)

[James310]

I think the EU would agree with her. I think they would like us to have our own currency first before any move towards the Euro. One thing at a time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But that's not what she said, if she had said it's not the right option now but may be in the future etc. then fair enough as it's an acknowledgement it that you need to make at the very least that commitment.

The SNP published a much awaited currency strategy paper just 2 weeks ago, no commitment or mention at all of the Euro. In the press conference Nicola Sturgeon actually ruled it out.

[Hibs90]

Would gladly use the Euro, what currency we use doesn't matter. :agree:

[James310]

We can all agree to disagree. I and many others think it's a muddled policy that doesn't reflect the reality of joining the EU. There has been conflicting statements that don't tally up. It's yet another unanswered question in the prospectus for Independence.

However if others think it's a clear and coherent policy and are happy with it then that's what matters to them. It's not like we would agree on it anyway.

I am tired now. 😂

[Since90+2]

Would gladly use the Euro, what currency we use doesn't matter. :agree:

The currency we use absolutely does matter. It underpins the economy.

[greenlex]

We can all agree to disagree. I and many others think it's a muddled policy that doesn't reflect the reality of joining the EU. There has been conflicting statements that don't tally up. It's yet another unanswered question in the prospectus for Independence.

However if others think it's a clear and coherent policy and are happy with it then that's what matters to them. It's not like we would agree on it anyway.

I am tired now. ��
Thought you could go all day? 40 mins later you’re tired. Which is it?
The policy is about getting independence nit joining the EU. You seem to be conflating the issue probably to suit your view. it’s clear there will be no absolute commitment to the Euro pre an independent referendum as it seems to put sone others off. There is no political gain in that. There was a paper produced on currency to give a clear pathway for independence. Once independence is gained and we have our own currency on the back of it then currency policy can be adopted to enhance Scotlands needs at the time. That could be a commitment to join the euro if that’s what is required. I’m sure both joining the EU and a further change of currency will be put to an independent electorate in sone form. It’s not up to a single political party. Elections or referendums will decide what we do. I’m not sure why your getting so worked up and tired over what isn’t being said right now.

[Keith_M]

I think you're Wallysplaining :wink:


:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

But that's not what she said, if she had said it's not the right option now but may be in the future etc. then fair enough as it's an acknowledgement it that you need to make at the very least that commitment.

The SNP published a much awaited currency strategy paper just 2 weeks ago, no commitment or mention at all of the Euro. In the press conference Nicola Sturgeon actually ruled it out.

Ah, so you want the standard answer " now is not the time".

[Moulin Yarns]

We can all agree to disagree. I and many others think it's a muddled policy that doesn't reflect the reality of joining the EU. There has been conflicting statements that don't tally up. It's yet another unanswered question in the prospectus for Independence.

However if others think it's a clear and coherent policy and are happy with it then that's what matters to them. It's not like we would agree on it anyway.

I am tired now. 😂

I have to ask, where are the many others?? Certainly not here as you have been a lone voice on this for some time.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/new-tory-welfare-chief-wanted-28364687?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Another example of the UK wishing to go in a different direction from Scotland. In Scotland, our demographics are such that we need to encourage people to have children. This would be the wrong policy altogether for Scotland but of course we would be powerless to stop it.


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[danhibees1875]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/new-tory-welfare-chief-wanted-28364687?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Another example of the UK wishing to go in a different direction from Scotland. In Scotland, our demographics are such that we need to encourage people to have children. This would be the wrong policy altogether for Scotland but of course we would be powerless to stop it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It reads as if he said something 10 years ago and that there's no plans to do anything of the sort. :dunno:

[cabbageandribs1875]

some know this, some can't see it, some know it but spend all their time in denial mode :greengrin possibly the same ones that fell for a slogan on a big red bus

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/311982169_461801016044241_3628222172066066382_n.jp g?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=vcTl2Inog9AAX9BGD0v&tn=vIvSFNl06GFFe0Qb&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfBqdbtG7g-sTkW39bTuW7qT1B-KNej_ltubq49Ek2tlAg&oe=6364ACE4

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/mps-support-scottish-independence-motion-in-commons-amid-criticism-of-snps-currency-plans


HOUSE OF COMMONS VOTE IN FAVOUR OF SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE. 😁

[Skol]

38-0 on a turnout of about 5%. ;-o

[Moulin Yarns]

38-0 on a turnout of about 5%. ;-o

You've got to be in it to win. 😉


All the other votes are abstentions 😁

[Just Alf]

You've got to be in it to win. [emoji6]


All the other votes are abstentions [emoji16]And remember the times that folks have said (even on here) that the act of union etc meant that the final decision needs to be made by those elected to Westminster....

Looks like Westminster has decided :greengrin

[Keith_M]

38-0 on a turnout of about 5%. ;-o


Well, if the other 95% are recorded as 'Don't really care enough to even turn up', then surely it's a sign of absolutely zero opposition to independence

:wink:

[Skol]

Well, if the other 95% are recorded as 'Don't really care enough to even turn up', then surely it's a sign of absolutely zero opposition to independence

:wink:

Are there not 46 SNP MPs ?

[Glory Lurker]

Are there not 46 SNP MPs ?

You're saying the Westminster authorities suppressed the yes vote?

[Skol]

No, but some of the snp MPs clearly didn’t vote either. Wonder why

The fact there was a zero on the other column is unusual.

[Glory Lurker]

No, but some of the snp MPs clearly didn’t vote either. Wonder why

The fact there was a zero on the other column is unusual.

Sorry, I should have added a smiley. I wasn't being serious. 😀

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/FabianZuleeg/status/1588462709259272192?t=0N33pVn8o_rUqHukSVWHJg&s=19

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[James310]

Normal.

https://twitter.com/SSalyers2/status/1588679043003596803?t=CL18nzccNLA_21yDO7Fhxg&s=19

[Stairway 2 7]

Normal.

https://twitter.com/SSalyers2/status/1588679043003596803?t=CL18nzccNLA_21yDO7Fhxg&s=19

All parties have groups on the extreme that aren't right in the head

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221105/3ca0451202dc5285a12e1b7733ef21cb.jpg

Normal.


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[Jones28]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221105/3ca0451202dc5285a12e1b7733ef21cb.jpg

Normal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is this from today? Or at all recently?

[DaveF]

Is this from today? Or at all recently?

The banner says vote no so presume this is from 2014.

[Skol]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221105/3ca0451202dc5285a12e1b7733ef21cb.jpg

Normal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How does that differ to people with saltires on their face saying vote yes?

[J-C]

How does that differ to people with saltires on their face saying vote yes?


They're not bigots with a banner with William of Orange on it.

[Skol]

They're not bigots with a banner with Willian of Orange on it.

Willian;-)

[Hibrandenburg]

How does that differ to people with saltires on their face saying vote yes?

You really don't know?

[J-C]

Willian;-)


Watching telly and reading the site at the same time, never checked. :greengrin edited now.

[Skol]

You really don't know?

Both are full of bigots who I don’t associate myself with.

[J-C]

Both are full of bigots who I don’t associate myself with.


What's bigoted about waving our national flag, painting the saltire on their faces and wanting to be an independent country, bizarre take on things.

[cabbageandribs1875]

You really don't know?


we can only hope it's a wind up, i mean

well, hopefully :Ummm:

[cabbageandribs1875]

well done Gents, they ken :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/312807895_456007563303140_6330407318880339968_n.jp g?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=bYSmLdu_pb8AX_V6NLT&tn=vIvSFNl06GFFe0Qb&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfDcZGgYimfBBtAM47Ft2YUoZDD2T9Nn-lSpsPemsfjyeg&oe=636C0852

[Hibrandenburg]

we can only hope it's a wind up, i mean

well, hopefully :Ummm:

The problem with trying to enlighten racists, bigots and fascists is that they think they are not that what they are and see nothing wrong with what they believe.

[Jack]

well done Gents, they ken :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/312807895_456007563303140_6330407318880339968_n.jp g?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=bYSmLdu_pb8AX_V6NLT&tn=vIvSFNl06GFFe0Qb&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfDcZGgYimfBBtAM47Ft2YUoZDD2T9Nn-lSpsPemsfjyeg&oe=636C0852

That's exactly where I am, albeit I've probably been here much longer than they have - I only spent 2 of my 65 years dan saff! So probably been in Scotland more than most here too 🤔

My concern is (although I'm not really concerned) is how I can get my Scottish passport.

[Ozyhibby]

That's exactly where I am, albeit I've probably been here much longer than they have - I only spent 2 of my 65 years dan saff! So probably been in Scotland more than most here too [emoji848]

My concern is (although I'm not really concerned) is how I can get my Scottish passport.

I’d be disappointed if we didn’t have a system where you could apply for citizenship once you had lived here for so many years. Being Scottish shouldn’t be about where your born or where your parents/grandparents are born.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23104242.leading-global-academic-independence-says-snp-can-easily-win-indyref2---embraces-populism/

A lot to agree with here. And a couple I disagree on.


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[Skol]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23104242.leading-global-academic-independence-says-snp-can-easily-win-indyref2---embraces-populism/

A lot to agree with here. And a couple I disagree on.


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I don’t think Qvortrup really understands what is going on in Scotland having read the article.

He is right that something needs to change for snp to win but the changes he suggests are not the ones required. The emotional argument has run its course and got to somewhere just shy of 50%. There is no point continuing that as it won’t win any more and just creates division. It needs something different to move the dial further. I did laugh at the recent papers being described as economic cases when they fall well short on that measure.

Other opinions also exist.

[cabbageandribs1875]

motion was passed anyway, but, **** you Sir Starmer, you democracy denier you :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/314390534_454654916771738_1530954733976148272_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=E02tO_fQ4zUAX8-Wofp&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCRW-zrfNsfX-H-pQCXK9GetTbzxEbfK4rG1BTow7z6Fg&oe=636DDA26

[cabbageandribs1875]

That's exactly where I am, albeit I've probably been here much longer than they have - I only spent 2 of my 65 years dan saff! So probably been in Scotland more than most here too ��

My concern is (although I'm not really concerned) is how I can get my Scottish passport.


i don't have knowledge about that

but i think 110% you'll be fine :greengrin


you'll be alright, jack

[cabbageandribs1875]

'Tory language': Ex Labour MP slams Keir Starmer for ruling out Scottish independence | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23106689.tory-language-ex-labour-mp-slams-keir-starmer-ruling-scottish-independence/?ref=ebmpn)

A FORMER Labour (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/labour/) MP has accused Keir Starmer of “patronising” Scots with “Tory language” after the Labour leader suggested he would oppose a second independence (https://www.thenational.scot/news/scottish-independence/) referendum even if Supreme Court judges allow one in an interview.

Les Huckfield – who was a Labour MP for 16 years and MEP for five – said the interview (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23104651.absolutely-embarrassing--keir-starmer-slammed-response-questions-independence/) Starmer delivered on the BBC (https://www.thenational.scot/news/media-and-the-bbc/)’s Sunday Show was “remarkably ill-prepared” and seemed as if it was done “off the cuff”.
Huckfield also branded Scottish Labour’s position on independence “ridiculous”.
During the interview, Starmer said the Supreme Court – which is looking at whether the Scottish Government can legislate for a referendum without Westminster (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/westminster/)’s permission – will not decide the “political” question of whether there should be a vote, before going on to maintain his opposition to one.
He also claimed Scots are not “stuck” in the Union which he believes is a “voluntary organisation”.
Huckfield – who moved to Scotland two decades ago and supports independence - said not only did Starmer patronise Scots with his remarks but he appeared to fail to recognise the legal significance of the Supreme Court case.

“I have been in Scotland for 20 years and I still cannot get used to, and I almost take offence to, the way a lot of English people patronise the Scots,” he said.
“What Starmer said [about a referendum] was Tory language. It’s not as bad as Liz Truss – I don’t think anything can be – but it was very patronising.
“It [the interview] was remarkably ill-prepared. I’m fascinated that anyone who purports to be the Leader of the Opposition and an advocate for the Union could turn up and make a speech like this. It was almost as though it was off the cuff.

“You cannot just turn up and patronise Scots.
“For what it’s worth, I don’t think Nicola Sturgeon (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/nicola-sturgeon/)’s strategy with the Supreme Court is going to work, but nevertheless I think they [Labour] ought to recognise the importance of the Scottish Government trying to do that and if they’re going to try and maintain some kind of impartiality they ought to wait for the outcome of the Supreme Court decision.
“Trying to anticipate or prejudge the outcome seems to me as not recognising the significance of what Nicola Sturgeon is trying to do. Starmer, above all, ought to recognise the significance of it.”

“On top of all of that, [Starmer is] not recognising the significance of what Nicola Sturgeon is trying to do with the Supreme Court. Bearing in mind this is a guy that used to be the director of public prosecutions, he at least ought to recognise the legal importance of it.”
Starmer has also been panned for saying there are too many overseas workers in the NHS (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23104735.keir-starmer-panned-saying-uk-recruits-many-overseas-workers-nhs/).
Former Labour MSP Malcolm Chisholm called Starmer “idiotic” for his remark on social media, stating “while he may have been trying to say something about workforce planning it didn't come across that way”.

[Bristolhibby]

That's exactly where I am, albeit I've probably been here much longer than they have - I only spent 2 of my 65 years dan saff! So probably been in Scotland more than most here too 🤔

My concern is (although I'm not really concerned) is how I can get my Scottish passport.

There was plenty of stuff re citizenship at the last referendum. You’ll be fine.

Likewise I’m the opposite, live in England but unlike my younger brother my folks were working in England when I was born. So will need to apply. No reason for me not to get citizenship, but unlike my brother I won’t have citizenship on Independence Day. I need to apply.

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/08/scotland-to-lose-two-commons-seats-in-latest-boundary-commission-proposals?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1667866256

Even less representation in Westminster.


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[James310]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/nov/08/scotland-to-lose-two-commons-seats-in-latest-boundary-commission-proposals?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1667866256

Even less representation in Westminster.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not sure why you would be bothered by this? Isn't the plan to have 0 Scottish MPs in next few years? There is either going to be a referendum in 11 months time or if that doesn't happen the next Westminster election and the one where the changes are being made will be the de facto referendum.

It's almost like you are accepting it's another 5 years for Scottish MPs after the next general election and there won't be a referendum at all.

It's surely a de facto referendum at the next General Election? That's what Nicola Sturgeon has promised.

[grunt]

Not sure why you would be bothered by this? Isn't the plan to have 0 Scottish MPs in next few years? There is either going to be a referendum in 11 months time or if that doesn't happen the next Westminster election and the one where the changes are being made will be the de facto referendum.
"Not sure why you're complaining about another hit from your abusive partner when you're planning to leave them in a few years?"

[James310]

"Not sure why you're complaining about another hit from your abusive partner when you're planning to leave them in a few years?"

Ah so Scottish Independence is the same as domestic abuse now is it? I hope any victims of actual domestic abuse reading that don't find your comments too offensive.

I know you believe it must help to paint Scotland as some downtrodden victim all the time but I don't see how portraying Scotland as a victim of domestic abuse furthers your cause for Independence.

But that's getting away from the point, surely you want 0 MPs in the next few years. It's either a) a referendum in 11 months or b) a de facto referendum in next 2 years.

[Kato]

Ah so Scottish Independence is the same as domestic abuse now is it? I hope any victims of actual domestic abuse reading that don't find your comments too offensive.

I know you believe it must help to paint Scotland as some downtrodden victim all the time but I don't see how portraying Scotland as a victim of domestic abuse furthers your cause for Independence.

But that's getting away from the point, surely you want 0 MPs in the next few years. It's either a) a referendum in 11 months or b) a de facto referendum in next 2 years.So your not sure why anyone should be bothered about less representation, ie less of a voice, so we should just accept it?

Then you turn yourself into the analogy police in another attempt to shut people up.

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[James310]

So your not sure why anyone should be bothered about less representation, ie less of a voice, so we should just accept it?

Then you turn yourself into the analogy police in another attempt to shut people up.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

I never brought up the analogy of domestic abuse, I replied saying I don't think it's a great analogy and victims of actual abuse may find it offensive.

You want zero representation at Westminster don't you? So if there is going to be a referendum next year or a de facto one the year after and you are confident of winning why is this such an issue? The plan is 0 MPs at Westminster unless you are getting ready for another 5 years.

[Kato]

I never brought up the analogy of domestic abuse, I replied saying I don't think it's a great analogy and victims of actual abuse may find it offensive.

You want zero representation at Westminster don't you? So if there is going to be a referendum next year or a de facto one the year after and you are confident of winning why is this such an issue? The plan is 0 MPs at Westminster unless you are getting ready for another 5 years.Weird.

You do know independence isn't guaranteed, don't you.

As the system stands just now representation ie our voice is being diminished.

Still, better shut-up as you seem to know best. You know what I'm thinking you know what I expect and you know what outcome I want. Best shut-up since your in charge of all that.

[J-C]

Weird.

You do know independence isn't guaranteed, don't you.

As the system stands just now representation ie our voice is being diminished.

Still, better shut-up as you seem to know best. You know what I'm thinking you know what I expect and you know what outcome I want. Best shut-up since your in charge of all that.

Strange a man in the minority telling the majority what's best for them.

[ronaldo7]

I don’t think Qvortrup really understands what is going on in Scotland having read the article.

He is right that something needs to change for snp to win but the changes he suggests are not the ones required. The emotional argument has run its course and got to somewhere just shy of 50%. There is no point continuing that as it won’t win any more and just creates division. It needs something different to move the dial further. I did laugh at the recent papers being described as economic cases when they fall well short on that measure.

Other opinions also exist.

Im with the professor.

The last campaign on the yes side was full of hope which carried many people to the cause. It's the youth of the country who'll win it for us.

Most of them see nothing for them in the union anymore. Of course the prospectus will have to cover the questions raised last time which the unionists were quick to jump on, but I'd rather take the professors case, and work towards that, rather than saying a populist vote is divisive.

[marinello59]

Im with the professor.

The last campaign on the yes side was full of hope which carried many people to the cause. It's the youth of the country who'll win it for us.

Most of them see nothing for them in the union anymore. Of course the prospectus will have to cover the questions raised last time which the unionists were quick to jump on, but I'd rather take the professors case, and work towards that, rather than saying a populist vote is divisive.

Im not so sure people of our age should be taking the voting intentions of the next generation for granted. I certainly wouldn’t dare summarise the views of most of them. They’ll probably go and vote the other way just to annoy us. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Not sure why you would be bothered by this? Isn't the plan to have 0 Scottish MPs in next few years? There is either going to be a referendum in 11 months time or if that doesn't happen the next Westminster election and the one where the changes are being made will be the de facto referendum.

It's almost like you are accepting it's another 5 years for Scottish MPs after the next general election and there won't be a referendum at all.

It's surely a de facto referendum at the next General Election? That's what Nicola Sturgeon has promised.

Is Alberto Costa's coat on a shuggly peg then?

[ronaldo7]

Im not so sure people of our age should be taking the voting intentions of the next generation for granted. I certainly wouldn’t dare summarise the views of most of them. They’ll probably go and vote the other way just to annoy us. :greengrin

Oh, I'm not. However I did say most, as polling is indicating.

We have to give them hope though, as nobody else is. 🙏

[Kato]

Strange a man in the minority telling the majority what's best for them.It's the refusal to admit the analogy of domestic abuse which was applied while telling people what they are thinking, what they should want, what they should accept etc, that was a doozy.

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[Hibrandenburg]

Not sure why you would be bothered by this? Isn't the plan to have 0 Scottish MPs in next few years? There is either going to be a referendum in 11 months time or if that doesn't happen the next Westminster election and the one where the changes are being made will be the de facto referendum.

It's almost like you are accepting it's another 5 years for Scottish MPs after the next general election and there won't be a referendum at all.

It's surely a de facto referendum at the next General Election? That's what Nicola Sturgeon has promised.

That's just daft. 2 less MPs representing Scottish interests means even less say for the Scottish electorate in reserved matters whereas independence means complete control of all our policies.

[grunt]

DUP Ian Paisley Jr’s referendum bill hearing for Jan 20th 2023 means united Ireland or Scottish independence votes will require a super-majority, pretty much locking both into the union forever - a repeat of Labour’s 79 devolution trick that preempts Supreme Court ruling.

[Ozyhibby]

DUP Ian Paisley Jr’s referendum bill hearing for Jan 20th 2023 means united Ireland or Scottish independence votes will require a super-majority, pretty much locking both into the union forever - a repeat of Labour’s 79 devolution trick that preempts Supreme Court ruling.

Zero chance of passing I would think? Would it not break the Good Friday agreement for a start?


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[grunt]

Zero chance of passing I would think? Would it not break the Good Friday agreement for a start?

Dunno. Tories still have a majority in Parliament?

[Hibrandenburg]

DUP Ian Paisley Jr’s referendum bill hearing for Jan 20th 2023 means united Ireland or Scottish independence votes will require a super-majority, pretty much locking both into the union forever - a repeat of Labour’s 79 devolution trick that preempts Supreme Court ruling.

Genius, the only route to independence would then be armed conflict.

[JeMeSouviens]

Zero chance of passing I would think? Would it not break the Good Friday agreement for a start?


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A private member's bill has almost no chance unless it is adopted by the government. I can't think even this shower would go for this. Although I bet they're tempted.

[Callum_62]

I never brought up the analogy of domestic abuse, I replied saying I don't think it's a great analogy and victims of actual abuse may find it offensive.

You want zero representation at Westminster don't you? So if there is going to be a referendum next year or a de facto one the year after and you are confident of winning why is this such an issue? The plan is 0 MPs at Westminster unless you are getting ready for another 5 years.100 percent agree

We should just forfeit all MPs in westminster now

May aswell as we await permission to have indy ref 2

Entirely sensible [emoji106]

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[James310]

100 percent agree

We should just forfeit all MPs in westminster now

May aswell as we await permission to have indy ref 2

Entirely sensible [emoji106]

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You are having IndyRef2 at the next election right?

Or you don't believe that?

[Callum_62]

You are having IndyRef2 at the next election right?

Or you don't believe that?No idea what's thats got to do with less representation

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[James310]

No idea what's thats got to do with less representation

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Well if you are confident of winning it then Westminster wouldn't be a thing anymore.

[Callum_62]

Well if you are confident of winning it then Westminster wouldn't be a thing anymore.What being "confident" of winning anything got to do with it?

Pretty silly argument really

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[James310]

What being "confident" of winning anything got to do with it?

Pretty silly argument really

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Again, if you are confident of winning the de facto referendum then doesn't that mean Scotland won't be sending any MPs to Westminster?

[CropleyWasGod]

Again, if you are confident of winning the de facto referendum then doesn't that mean Scotland won't be sending any MPs to Westminster?

Why wouldn't they?

Let's say independence is "voted for" at the next GE. Even if that is the agreed outcome of the next GE,which of course wOUld be unlikely, there would still be a period before actual independence. In that period, Scottish residents still need representation at WM.

[James310]

Why wouldn't they?

Let's say independence is "voted for" at the next GE. Even if that is the agreed outcome of the next GE,which of course wOUld be unlikely, there would still be a period before actual independence. In that period, Scottish residents still need representation at WM.

Everyone will still have a MP and representation though. From what I can see these changes are a result of population changes.

[CropleyWasGod]

Everyone will still have a MP and representation though. From what I can see these changes are a result of population changes.

And these MPs will take their seats at WM. Why wouldn't they?

[James310]

And these MPs will take their seats at WM. Why wouldn't they?

For what I am guessing is a short period of time. I just don't get the outrage at the changes due to population concentration and especially if you think Scotland won't have MPs at Westminster for much longer. Maybe people think they will actually be there for longer and the full 5 years.

[danhibees1875]

Everyone will still have a MP and representation though. From what I can see these changes are a result of population changes.

I assumed that was the reason.

Not sure how it compares now in terms of % of MPs Vs % of population. I did have it in my head though that we were over represented at one point (but that would have been taken the wrong side of the recent census).

[James310]

I assumed that was the reason.

Not sure how it compares now in terms of % of MPs Vs % of population. I did have it in my head though that we were over represented at one point (but that would have been taken the wrong side of the recent census).

At the moment Scotland is over represented in terms of % of population versus % of MPs.

All due to the FPTP system but the SNP have 68% of MPs in Scotland on less than 50% of the vote so actually have a pretty good deal in terms of representation.

[danhibees1875]

At the moment Scotland is over represented in terms of % of population versus % of MPs.


Are they changing that to being under represented after the switch?

Edit: quick maths suggests not.

57/650 is 8.8%. Whilst we have 8.2% of the population.

So we have 4 more than the 53 we should have to be at 8.2% :dunno:

[James310]

Are they changing that to being under represented after the switch?

I am guessing the changes make it even and fair across the UK.

https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/bdy2023_scot_summary.html

[James310]

Are they changing that to being under represented after the switch?

Edit: quick maths suggests not.

57/650 is 8.8%. Whilst we have 8.2% of the population.

So we have 4 more than the 53 we should have to be at 8.2% :dunno:

There you go then. But that doesn't make a good grievance does it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Why wouldn't they?

Let's say independence is "voted for" at the next GE. Even if that is the agreed outcome of the next GE,which of course wOUld be unlikely, there would still be a period before actual independence. In that period, Scottish residents still need representation at WM.

Yep. Even after the Brexit vote we elected Meps and they sat and took part in the European Parliament.

[Callum_62]

Yep. Even after the Brexit vote we elected Meps and they sat and took part in the European Parliament.What a waste of time that was eh?

Shouldve just stopped sending them a year before the vote

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[CropleyWasGod]

For what I am guessing is a short period of time. I just don't get the outrage at the changes due to population concentration and especially if you think Scotland won't have MPs at Westminster for much longer. Maybe people think they will actually be there for longer and the full 5 years.

So they will send MP's?

Thanks 😊

[James310]

So they will send MP's?

Thanks 😊

I don't think I said they wouldn't.

Thanks😀

I said I don't understand why people are so bothered about it.

[Moulin Yarns]

So they will send MP's?

Thanks 😊

Obviously it will be a waste of time. 😉

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't think I said they wouldn't.

Thanks😀

I said I don't understand why people are so bothered about it.

You asked the question...

doesn't that mean Scotland won't be sending any MPs to Westminster?

People told you we would. You seem to agree now. Good :)

[James310]

You asked the question...

doesn't that mean Scotland won't be sending any MPs to Westminster?

People told you we would. You seem to agree now. Good :)

I thought it was fairly obvious it was a longer term thing, hence the reference I made a number of times to another 5 years.

Settling down for another 5 years at Westminster seems to be the expectation now.

[Hibrandenburg]

I thought it was fairly obvious it was a longer term thing, hence the reference I made a number of times to another 5 years.

Settling down for another 5 years at Westminster seems to be the expectation now.

As long as we're governed by Westminster, why wouldn't we send people to represent us there?

[Since90+2]

As long as we're governed by Westminster, why wouldn't we send people to represent us there?

He can't answer that because he knows he's been made to look a little silly by Cropley Was God regarding this.

Jimmy's not had a great time on this thread recently with this and previously being made to look a little silly over iScotland and having to join the Euro. As an independence supporter it's great to see 😀

[Since90+2]

I don't think I said they wouldn't.

Again, if you are confident of winning the de facto referendum then doesn't that mean Scotland won't be sending any MPs to Westminster?

Literally what you said above.

You're all over the shop now, James.

[James310]

He can't answer that because he knows he's been made to look a little silly by Cropley Was God regarding this.

Jimmy's not had a great time on this thread recently with this and previously being made to look a little silly over iScotland and having to join the Euro. As an independence supporter it's great to see 😀

I feel like I am back in the school playground 😂

I know what I meant, I was right about the Euro (show me anywhere at all where the SNP have committed to it) and I know what I meant about MPs and questioning why people were so outraged about something where they would be hoping to send 0 MPs fairly soon.

👍

(If I am supposedly paid for this I wonder if I will be demoted 😂)

[Ozyhibby]

Are the changes fair? I would say yes under the current system.
Do the changes diminish Scotland’s voice in the union? I would say yes to that as well.
Both things can be true.
And so long as the UK is structured the way it is then the south is going to continue to grow and Scotland will continue to stagnate. And the number of mp’s we get to send down to the parliament will continue to fall.


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[J-C]

I feel like I am back in the school playground 😂

I know what I meant, I was right about the Euro (show me anywhere at all where the SNP have committed to it) and I know what I meant about MPs and questioning why people were so outraged about something where they would be hoping to send 0 MPs fairly soon.

👍

(If I am supposedly paid for this I wonder if I will be demoted 😂)

You are MWHIBBIES and I claim my £20

[James310]

You are MWHIBBIES and I claim my £20

Erm ok....

[CropleyWasGod]

I feel like I am back in the school playground ��

I know what I meant, I was right about the Euro (show me anywhere at all where the SNP have committed to it) and I know what I meant about MPs and questioning why people were so outraged about something where they would be hoping to send 0 MPs fairly soon.

��

(If I am supposedly paid for this I wonder if I will be demoted ��)

Outraged?

3/4? posters expressed negativity.

[JeMeSouviens]

Are the changes fair? I would say yes under the current system.
Do the changes diminish Scotland’s voice in the union? I would say yes to that as well.
Both things can be true.
And so long as the UK is structured the way it is then the south is going to continue to grow and Scotland will continue to stagnate. And the number of mp’s we get to send down to the parliament will continue to fall.


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It makes sod all difference really but it further underlines how the "Union" is nothing of the sort. It's a unitary state that was 2 countries long ago.

A real union would have something like the Canadian federation where they can't make major changes unless all the provinces agree or the US senate where Nebraska has the same representation as California.

I'm sure Auld Broon's review will sort all this and be warmly accepted by all at Westminster though. :aok:

[CropleyWasGod]

It makes sod all difference really but it further underlines how the "Union" is nothing of the sort. It's a unitary state that was 2 countries long ago.

A real union would have something like the Canadian federation where they can't make major changes unless all the provinces agree or the US senate where Nebraska has the same representation as California.

I'm sure Auld Broon's review will sort all this and be warmly accepted by all at Westminster though. :aok:

It does mean that I'll be free of Christine Jardine.:)

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221111/3e1a63a084a3e031d34188cd81282564.jpg

This isn’t going to go away. Scotland is going to continue to be dragged down while we remain outside the SM and CU.


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[degenerated]

It does mean that I'll be free of Christine Jardine.:)I have the trifecta of being represented at all levels by lib Dems idiots. Jardine at Westminster, Erse Hole-hamilton at Holyrood and 3 local lib Dems councillors. The pick of the councillors is an absolute roaster called kevin lang.

I struggle to think of one single thing any of them have achieved.

[greenlex]

I have the trifecta of being represented at all levels by lib Dems idiots. Jardine at Westminster, Erse Hole-hamilton at Holyrood and 3 local lib Dems councillors. The pick of the councillors is an absolute roaster called kevin lang.

I struggle to think of one single thing any of them have achieved.

Well you voted for them.😉. Just thank the Lord no one uttered the phrase once in a lifetime at some point. 😂😂

[degenerated]

Well you voted for them.[emoji6]. Just thank the Lord no one uttered the phrase once in a lifetime at some point. [emoji23][emoji23]People are beginning to see through Cole Hamilton for what he is so hopefully he'll get tipped out next time.

[The Modfather]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221111/3e1a63a084a3e031d34188cd81282564.jpg

This isn’t going to go away. Scotland is going to continue to be dragged down while we remain outside the SM and CU.


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It’s interesting that this post hasn’t generated any replies or constructive debate. Yet we had a couple of pages on something like how many MP’s we’re sending to Westminster.

It’s healthy for those not in favour of independence to ask questions about independence. However it’s disappointing that no one is willing to have a grown up and constructive debate about the way forward in the union to change our direction of travel.

So, how do we begin to take steps to change our shrinking economy with the tools we have now? I.E re-joining the EU not plausible.

[grunt]

So, how do we begin to take steps to change our shrinking economy with the tools we have now? I.E re-joining the EU not plausible.
Why not?

[archie]

It’s interesting that this post hasn’t generated any replies or constructive debate. Yet we had a couple of pages on something like how many MP’s we’re sending to Westminster.

It’s healthy for those not in favour of independence to ask questions about independence. However it’s disappointing that no one is willing to have a grown up and constructive debate about the way forward in the union to change our direction of travel.

So, how do we begin to take steps to change our shrinking economy with the tools we have now? I.E re-joining the EU not plausible.
I think changing the nature of our relationship with the EU would be possible with a different UK Government.

[The Modfather]

Why not?


I think changing the nature of our relationship with the EU would be possible with a different UK Government.

Don’t get me wrong, we absolutely should admit our colossal mistake and re-join with our tail between our legs. However, what I meant is that no one is proposing it, no one is talking about it, no one (I mean politically) is even having a grown up and constructive conversation about our post Brexit economy.

Brexit is similar to independence, it is split down the middle. No party ever proposes something for the greater good at potentially their own cost. Which is why I don’t hold out much hope of Labour making any inroads to re-joining.

So, in the short and medium term, we are out the EU. Independence isn’t the answer, fine. What are the answers to how we address our shrinking economy in the here and now?

[grunt]

So, in the short and medium term, we are out the EU. Independence isn’t the answer, fine. What are the answers to how we address our shrinking economy in the here and now?
Uh? Independence IS the answer.

[degenerated]

Don’t get me wrong, we absolutely should admit our colossal mistake and re-join with our tail between our legs. However, what I meant is that no one is proposing it, no one is talking about it, no one (I mean politically) is even having a grown up and constructive conversation about our post Brexit economy.

Brexit is similar to independence, it is split down the middle. No party ever proposes something for the greater good at potentially their own cost. Which is why I don’t hold out much hope of Labour making any inroads to re-joining.

So, in the short and medium term, we are out the EU. Independence isn’t the answer, fine. What are the answers to how we address our shrinking economy in the here and now?It wasn't our colossal mistake. Our colossal mistake was not kicking off more in 1707 when a few nobles sold their country out. :greengrin

[Jack]

I think changing the nature of our relationship with the EU would be possible with a different UK Government.

What makes you think a different UK government would do anything differently? There doesn't seem to be as much as a fag paper between the 2 main Westminster parties.

[degenerated]

What makes you think a different UK government would do anything differently? There doesn't seem to be as much as a fag paper between the 2 main Westminster parties.Whilst in the union our relationship with Europe will only change when England makes that decision for us.

[archie]

What makes you think a different UK government would do anything differently? There doesn't seem to be as much as a fag paper between the 2 main Westminster parties.
I think over time there is the potential to soften the relationship in response to economic factors. We could have arrangements akin to Norway for example. I don't agree with your analysis of the Westminster parties. I think a Labour party in power would be much more pragmatic than the current government.

[Stairway 2 7]

What makes you think a different UK government would do anything differently? There doesn't seem to be as much as a fag paper between the 2 main Westminster parties.

That's not true. Starmer is centre maybe centre right. The current tory government is the furthest right perhaps ever. Stuff like nationalising the railways and setting up a national power company will come in under labour and would never under Sunak.

Starmer is too right for me but there is a difference.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think changing the nature of our relationship with the EU would be possible with a different UK Government.

I'm not so sure that other EU countries would play ball. Why would other EU countries who have filled the gaps in the market left by Britain's exit with their own products be willing to relinquish them?

[archie]

I'm not so sure that other EU countries would play ball. Why would other EU countries who have filled the gaps in the market left by Britain's exit with their own products be willing to relinquish them?I think the EU leadership was pretty shocked by Brexit. There was nothing in it for them to give us a good deal after the vote, but I sense that they would be open to a rapprochement. There is also the sticky Ireland border issue that needs addressed. Also, it's not a zero sum game. There would be advantages for both parties.

[cabbageandribs1875]

aw nawwwww The Merciless One on Twitter: "My thoughts go out to BBC Scotland, The Herald, The Scottish Sun, The Scotsman, Sam Taylor, The Times, tories in Scotland, the Accounting Unit of UK Labour, and the 4 LibDems in Scotland at this difficult time. https://t.co/OtIyUGRvnb" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/pete_nicoll/status/1591288182280445952?t=PtC-T-oWaKJwbC--TZ0z9w&s=19&fbclid=IwAR0SzH01JzqJ8hk1n7b0o7pi6T5ydnrBm6uSz0Eoj FDpnk9OwE4bAP7caaI)

[The Tubs]

I think the EU leadership was pretty shocked by Brexit. There was nothing in it for them to give us a good deal after the vote, but I sense that they would be open to a rapprochement. There is also the sticky Ireland border issue that needs addressed. Also, it's not a zero sum game. There would be advantages for both parties.

I can't see the English press allowing Labour to give away their Brexit. There will have been IMF interventions before it gets to that stage.

A forced constitutional reform caused by Scottish independence might give them some space to reduce the distance to the EU by stealth. Nevertheless, it'd be on the EU's terms, just like the last negotiations.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/university-of-strathclyde-report-finds-45-of-scotlands-wealth-held-by-10-of-households


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/university-of-strathclyde-report-finds-45-of-scotlands-wealth-held-by-10-of-households


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There is plenty money to go round. What we need is wealth redistribution

[marinello59]

There is plenty money to go round. What we need is wealth redistribution

Which no mainstream party is proposing to do in any part of the UK.

[Stairway 2 7]

Which no mainstream party is proposing to do in any part of the UK.

No definitely not. Corbyn probably the closest in my lifetime and the media done their best to stamp that out pronto

[Ozyhibby]

What we need is the consistent left of centre govts we vote for. The article specifically says that the situation got worse post 2010 when England took a turn to the right. Scotland didn’t but we got it anyway.
And to say that the SNP are not in favour of redistribution when you look are our more generous benefit system is just plain wrong. With limited powers they have made a difference to the lives of the poorest in Scotland.


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[Stairway 2 7]

What we need is the consistent left of centre govts we vote for. The article specifically says that the situation got worse post 2010 when England took a turn to the right. Scotland didn’t but we got it anyway.
And to say that the SNP are not in favour of redistribution when you look are our more generous benefit system is just plain wrong. With limited powers they have made a difference to the lives of the poorest in Scotland.


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Comparing yourself to the Tories and then it's easy to look left wing. Snp are a neoliberal centrist party, they need to be to get a broad support we need for independence.

Giving a tiny bit more in benefits isn't wealth redistribution it's window dressing. We've just about got the same tax system as the evil Tories bar a %.

We can go further once independent. Without be stuck with fptp we'll have left wing options to lead

[Ozyhibby]

Comparing yourself to the Tories and then it's easy to look left wing. Snp are a neoliberal centrist party, they need to be to get a broad support we need for independence.

Giving a tiny bit more in benefits isn't wealth redistribution it's window dressing. We've just about got the same tax system as the evil Tories bar a %.

We can go further once independent. Without be stuck with fptp we'll have left wing options to lead

We are only allowed the same tax system. We are def not allowed to tax wealth. Only earned income.


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[marinello59]

We are only allowed the same tax system. We are def not allowed to tax wealth. Only earned income.


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The point is the SNP are not proposing anything radical at all on that front after Indy. They are a centrist party, much the same as Starmer’s Labour Party.

[Ozyhibby]

The point is the SNP are not proposing anything radical at all on that front after Indy. They are a centrist party, much the same as Starmer’s Labour Party.

I would say they have already gone further than anything Starmer has ever proposed?


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[Stairway 2 7]

We are only allowed the same tax system. We are def not allowed to tax wealth. Only earned income.


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Uk gov is about to announce 30 billion a year saving from just increasing income tax a tiny bit. Its an absolutely huge tool we have at our disposal. I understand why politically it's better to downplay its worth but that's daft.

Corbyn was a great distance to the left than the snp

[Ozyhibby]

Uk gov is about to announce 30 billion a year saving from just increasing income tax a tiny bit. Its an absolutely huge tool we have at our disposal. I understand why politically it's better to downplay its worth but that's daft.

Corbyn was a great distance to the left than the snp

Let’s see what they announce. I personally don’t think taxing working people is that progressive. It’s unearned income that needs taxed harder.


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[grunt]

Corbyn was a great distance to the left than the snpHe did well didn't he?

[Stairway 2 7]

Let’s see what they announce. I personally don’t think taxing working people is that progressive. It’s unearned income that needs taxed harder.


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Totally disagree on people earning huge amounts

[Stairway 2 7]

He did well didn't he?

Got a huge turn out but so did boris. Generally people vote for centrist parties, which is probably why snp stick there

[Ozyhibby]

Uk gov is about to announce 30 billion a year saving from just increasing income tax a tiny bit. Its an absolutely huge tool we have at our disposal. I understand why politically it's better to downplay its worth but that's daft.

Corbyn was a great distance to the left than the snp

Corbyn might be to the left but when I see Kherson liberated this weekend I’m glad he’s not in power. That only happened because we gave Ukraine the weapons to make it happen. Corbyn would not have done that.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/stvnews/status/1592153908855480322?s=46&t=xnRucd89wJ8k48FSgl2WPA

Progressive. No commitment to copy this in England from Labour?


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[Skol]

Let’s see what they announce. I personally don’t think taxing working people is that progressive. It’s unearned income that needs taxed harder.


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How would you define unearned income and what approach to taxing it would you like to see?

[Ozyhibby]

How would you define unearned income and what approach to taxing it would you like to see?

Earnings from dividends, rent etc. The Scottish govt do not have the power to change the tax on that part of income tax. Why is that? It’s still income?


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[Moulin Yarns]

How would you define unearned income and what approach to taxing it would you like to see?

Interest on savings? Now that interest rates have risen all that money sqirrelled away is growing again. 😁

[CropleyWasGod]

Earnings from dividends, rent etc. The Scottish govt do not have the power to change the tax on that part of income tax. Why is that? It’s still income?


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Taxing rent differently would be a problem. Many people get all their income from renting. From a fairness point of view, I'm not sure that would work.

That said, from a moral perspective (reducing the number of rented properties), it might be a good idea.

[Jack]

Taxing rent differently would be a problem. Many people get all their income from renting. From a fairness point of view, I'm not sure that would work.

That said, from a moral perspective (reducing the number of rented properties), it might be a good idea.

Surely those earning from rent would be eligible for all the business allowances other businesses are entitled to and a personal allowance like everyone else.

[Ozyhibby]

Taxing rent differently would be a problem. Many people get all their income from renting. From a fairness point of view, I'm not sure that would work.

That said, from a moral perspective (reducing the number of rented properties), it might be a good idea.

It’s taxed differently now in Scotland. If your income comes from rent and your a higher rate tax payer, you pay less than if your income comes from working.


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[Ozyhibby]

Surely those earning from rent would be eligible for all the business allowances other businesses are entitled to and a personal allowance like everyone else.

Complicated. Your mortgage payments are no longer tax deductible in the same way they used to be. You now get a tax credit but only at the 20%ish lower rate. If you are a higher rate tax payer then owning buy to let now is not really a good idea unless you can put it in a company structure, which has its own problems. Your income gets calculated on your turnover, not your profit. It can drag a lot of people into higher tax bands.


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[Berwickhibby]

Unsure if this is the right thread

More good news for Scottish shipbuilders.

The UK Prime Minister has announced a £4.2 billion contract to build five new Royal Navy warships on the Clyde and support 1,700 jobs in Govan and Scotstoun.

The deal awarded to BAE Systems for five more Type 26 frigates comes on top of the three already under construction, with all expected to be operational by the middle of the next decade.

[Ozyhibby]

Unsure if this is the right thread

More good news for Scottish shipbuilders.

The UK Prime Minister has announced a £4.2 billion contract to build five new Royal Navy warships on the Clyde and support 1,700 jobs in Govan and Scotstoun.

The deal awarded to BAE Systems for five more Type 26 frigates comes on top of the three already under construction, with all expected to be operational by the middle of the next decade.

I doubt this thread is relevant.[emoji23]


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[Berwickhibby]

I doubt this thread is relevant.[emoji23]


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Ok shall I put it on the SNP thread as a comparison to their boat building success 🙄 …brace yourself for the onslaught and defence of the SG

[Ozyhibby]

Ok shall I put it on the SNP thread as a comparison to their boat building success [emoji849] …brace yourself for the onslaught and defence of the SG

We could do a comparison with the Ajax tanks. Go for it.[emoji106]


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[grunt]

Unsure if this is the right thread

More good news for Scottish shipbuilders.

The UK Prime Minister has announced a £4.2 billion contract to build five new Royal Navy warships on the Clyde and support 1,700 jobs in Govan and Scotstoun.

The deal awarded to BAE Systems for five more Type 26 frigates comes on top of the three already under construction, with all expected to be operational by the middle of the next decade.
Woohoo! FIVE new warships. I expect they'll have to wait until we've finished building the THIRTEEN new frigates we were promised in 2014.

Or maybe, this is yet another Tory Govt promise that will be quietly abandoned ...?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/12/michael-fallon-royal-navy-frigate-clyde-scotland-shipyards-zambellas


The pledge to build the 13 new Type 26 frigates on the Clyde to safeguard Glasgow’s last remaining shipyards was central to the UK government’s campaign against independence. Seen as a crucial part of the union dividend, it was endorsed repeatedly by Fallon and his predecessor, Phillip Hammond, on national security grounds.

[JeMeSouviens]

We could do a comparison with the Ajax tanks. Go for it.[emoji106]


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Don't even need to go there. The currently being built type 26 frigates are already a year delayed and £233M over budget.

Must have missed that news on Reporting Ferries. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

These arguments are pointless unless the UK govt is spending a disproportionate share of defence spending in Scotland. It is not.
Still we should be grateful that they are spending some of our money here.[emoji849]


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[Ozyhibby]

Don't even need to go there. The currently being built type 26 frigates are already a year delayed and £233M over budget.

Must have missed that news on Reporting Ferries. :greengrin

And more Scottish money has been spent on these mythical tanks that don’t exist than on the ferries. More than double actually.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Woohoo! FIVE new warships. I expect they'll have to wait until we've finished building the THIRTEEN new frigates we were promised in 2014.

Or maybe, this is yet another Tory Govt promise that will be quietly abandoned ...?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/12/michael-fallon-royal-navy-frigate-clyde-scotland-shipyards-zambellas

All 13 are being built. It's very good for the Clyde and a massive contract. But bea systems are private and could work in Scotland post independence. Surely we'll have some sort of joint military pact going forward regardless

geoallison
Breaking news - Five more Type 26 Frigates have been ordered by the UK Government, bringing the total number of Type 26 Frigates being built on the Clyde up to eight and the total number of frigates being built in Scotland up to 13

The Prime Minister is attending the G20 summit in Bali, Indonesia, where he announced that BAE Systems has been awarded a £4.2 billion contract to build five more Type 26 frigates for the Royal Navy, on top of the three already under construction

[Ozyhibby]

All 13 are being built. It's very good for the Clyde and a massive contract. But bea systems are private and could work in Scotland post independence. Surely we'll have some sort of joint military pact going forward regardless

geoallison
Breaking news - Five more Type 26 Frigates have been ordered by the UK Government, bringing the total number of Type 26 Frigates being built on the Clyde up to eight and the total number of frigates being built in Scotland up to 13

The Prime Minister is attending the G20 summit in Bali, Indonesia, where he announced that BAE Systems has been awarded a £4.2 billion contract to build five more Type 26 frigates for the Royal Navy, on top of the three already under construction

Almost certainly there will be some sort of military pact but it suits neither party to talk about it beforehand for different reasons.


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[archie]

Almost certainly there will be some sort of military pact but it suits neither party to talk about it beforehand for different reasons.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDiscussion of the issues: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/would-uk-naval-shipbuilding-continue-in-scotland-if-it-left-the-uk/

[Stairway 2 7]

Almost certainly there will be some sort of military pact but it suits neither party to talk about it beforehand for different reasons.


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Think you're spot on but if the no team keep trying to use it, then their pish should be pulled up. We're an island nation with a land border and a combined army for hundreds of years. We'll clearly be separate but connected. We have deals with French war ships and soon with Australia, Scotland and ruk will be no different its certainly nothing to worry about.

[Stairway 2 7]

Discussion of the issues: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/would-uk-naval-shipbuilding-continue-in-scotland-if-it-left-the-uk/

Since this was written bae are building a massive indoor Dock. That doesn't just get picked up and moved down south, ship war ship building is secure on the Clyde

[archie]

Think you're spot on but if the no team keep trying to use it, then their pish should be pulled up. We're an island nation with a land border and a combined army for hundreds of years. We'll clearly be separate but connected. We have deals with French war ships and soon with Australia, Scotland and ruk will be no different its certainly nothing to worry about.Really! Nothing to worry about? Why would rUK award work to yards in a foreign country when there are yards within their country that could get the work?

[grunt]

All 13 are being built. It's very good for the Clyde and a massive contract. But bea systems are private and could work in Scotland post independence.
So what you're telling me is that the FIVE new frigates which are being trumpeted as being a great new union benefit for Scotland are part of the THIRTEEN frigates which were already announced more than 8 years ago? They get multiple announcements out of one policy decision? So we get to be immensely grateful to our own UK Govt for spending our own money in our own country. Oh, I'm so happy to be part of this bounteous union. Thank goodness for the Tories.

[grunt]

Really! Nothing to worry about? Why would rUK award work to yards in a foreign country when there are yards within their country that could get the work?
I'm sure you're right here. Imagine the howls of protest from the Little Englanders if the English Govt ordered frigates from newly independent Scotland! It's actually quite amusing to think about.

[Stairway 2 7]

So what you're telling me is that the FIVE new frigates which are being trumpeted as being a great new union benefit for Scotland are part of the THIRTEEN frigates which were already announced more than 8 years ago? They get multiple announcements out of one policy decision? So we get to be immensely grateful to our own UK Govt for spending our own money in our own country. Oh, I'm so happy to be part of this bounteous union. Thank goodness for the Tories.

I'm not telling you anything. You asked if it was 13, it is

[Stairway 2 7]

Really! Nothing to worry about? Why would rUK award work to yards in a foreign country when there are yards within their country that could get the work?

It's not like making a table, Clyde is the only place equipped to build these. Bae systems is a private company and gets orders from around the world. They have just had a massive order from Australia. Using this world class private facility as a negative for Scotland is bizarre.

[Ozyhibby]

Really! Nothing to worry about? Why would rUK award work to yards in a foreign country when there are yards within their country that could get the work?

MOD order from abroad all the time. Parts of the invisible tank are made in Spain.
In an independent Scotland, defence spending will remain the same. We’ll buy some stuff from England and they will buy some stuff from us. We’ll both buy a lot of stuff from the EU and America. We will also likely co-ordinate with each other to avoid duplication.
I think most likely will be a full defence co-operation agreement. Last thing the UK will want is to lose 8-10% of its armed forces. A deal will be done.


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[archie]

I'm sure you're right here. Imagine the howls of protest from the Little Englanders if the English Govt ordered frigates from newly independent Scotland! It's actually quite amusing to think about.Amusing? Why would it be amusing? Doesn't that make the point that howls of protest would make it less likely that work would be awarded by rUK to Scotland?

[grunt]

Amusing? Why would it be amusing? Doesn't that make the point that howls of protest would make it less likely that work would be awarded by rUK to Scotland?I was agreeing with you!

[archie]

It's not like making a table, Clyde is the only place equipped to build these. Bae systems is a private company and gets orders from around the world. They have just had a massive order from Australia. Using this world class private facility as a negative for Scotland is bizarre.Yes. But if we are to believe the UK Defence Journal complex ships for the navy are not built abroad. Yards in Barrow in Furness were extremely pissed that they didn't get the work.

[archie]

I was agreeing with you!So the work would be unlikely to come to an independent Scotland?

[Ozyhibby]

Yes. But if we are to believe the UK Defence Journal complex ships for the navy are not built abroad. Yards in Barrow in Furness were extremely pissed that they didn't get the work.

Global demand for defence spending is huge just now. Any country capable of building warships won’t be short of orders.


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[Ozyhibby]

So the work would be unlikely to come to an independent Scotland?

I would say it’s very likely to come to Scotland if we are the best at building them.
And Scotland itself will need naval capacity if no deal is done. There will be work in those yards.


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[archie]

MOD order from abroad all the time. Parts of the invisible tank are made in Spain.
In an independent Scotland, defence spending will remain the same. We’ll buy some stuff from England and they will buy some stuff from us. We’ll both buy a lot of stuff from the EU and America. We will also likely co-ordinate with each other to avoid duplication.
I think most likely will be a full defence co-operation agreement. Last thing the UK will want is to lose 8-10% of its armed forces. A deal will be done.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThere's a lot of 'will' in your statement. How can you know that? Will Scotland be in NATO? It's an issue given the very recent (and contested) change in position. Will Scotland try to join NATO but not allow nuclear weapons on land or territorial area. Will trident be aloowed? Would the US allow their technology to be used in Scottish yards? I don't know the answer to these questions, but the answers are all material to the discussion.

[Jack]

I'm sure you're right here. Imagine the howls of protest from the Little Englanders if the English Govt ordered frigates from newly independent Scotland! It's actually quite amusing to think about.

Indeed. But think about foreign spending in other parts of the armed forces.

There's bits and bobs bought from many countries to keep our weapons systems going. Think of all the stories of Russian systems being crippled without their overseas bits. Most countries are the same.

Parts of aircraft are built overseas, lots of them, indeed the whole aircraft on the new aircraft carriers are designed and built in the USA. And if you think of the ultimate weapon, our nuclear deterrent again its the good ol' USA again.

It is an absolute nonsense to suggest warships couldn't be built in Scotland.