Scottish Independence

[One Day Soon]

My theory is that there were a fair chunk of No/Remainers that were reluctant to make the jump until they saw that Brexit was both irreversible and no-compromise-hard-as-stone. Both these things are now clear.

You could be right, but I don't think it's that. I think that regardless of the actual question being asked in all those opinion polls the only question that those surveyed are hearing is 'Johnson or Sturgeon?'. That is a choice which has been made very starkly clear by Covid, daily free platform to daily free platform. Post-Covid politics will be interesting.

[Ozyhibby]

It is a sudden drop, aligned almost perfectly with both Johnson post-election and Covid pandemic.

Puts Indy ahead for about the last 10 months or so out of the 72 months since the last referendum. I'd hurry up with that referendum if I were you...

72 months? Feels like a generation ago.


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[Moulin Yarns]

It is a sudden drop, aligned almost perfectly with both Johnson post-election and Covid pandemic.

Puts Indy ahead for about the last 10 months or so out of the 72 months since the last referendum. I'd hurry up with that referendum if I were you...

It could also be seen as a decent correlation in the failure of Labour to overcome the worst tory government in history. Funny how differently things can be interpreted depending on your starting point :greengrin

[One Day Soon]

The graph on the previous page shows support for the union is lower than ever been since the referendum, maybe even lower than its ever been in modern history and its a fairly steep slope down.

If roles were reversed you'd be cock-a-hoop.


Firstly, yes of course if the roles were reversed I'd be cock a hoop.

Second, that graph absolutely does not show support for the union lower than it has ever been since the referendum. Do you see the small red dot below and to the left of the end of the red line? THAT's the lowest point on that chart. That is also why it was inaccurate to say what you said.

[One Day Soon]

72 months? Feels like a generation ago.


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Five years a generation? That's building in some spectacularly short life expectancy...

[One Day Soon]

It could also be seen as a decent correlation in the failure of Labour to overcome the worst tory government in history. Funny how differently things can be interpreted depending on your starting point :greengrin


Well it could I suppose, is that what you really think?

[Moulin Yarns]

Firstly, yes of course if the roles were reversed I'd be cock a hoop.

Second, that graph absolutely does not show support for the union lower than it has ever been since the referendum. Do you see the small red dot below and to the left of the end of the red line? THAT's the lowest point on that chart. That is also why it was inaccurate to say what you said.

Which is why, in terms of Covid-19, the daily figures are not the figures to follow, instead the trends and 7 day figures are more accurate, and the line on the chart shows the trend not individual dots.

[Moulin Yarns]

Five years a generation? That's building in some spectacularly short life expectancy...

Like Labour leaderships :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Well it could I suppose, is that what you really think?

Not really, but had Labour been stronger a year ago we could be in a different place right now, and the consistant independence lead in polls would be less or even non existant.

[Ozyhibby]

Not really, but had Labour been stronger a year ago we could be in a different place right now, and the consistant independence lead in polls would be less or even non existant.

‘Had Labour been stronger’ is the story of the Labour Party. Tony Blair is the only person who has managed to get them electable in my adult life and it’s not looking like changing.


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[JeMeSouviens]

You could be right, but I don't think it's that. I think that regardless of the actual question being asked in all those opinion polls the only question that those surveyed are hearing is 'Johnson or Sturgeon?'. That is a choice which has been made very starkly clear by Covid, daily free platform to daily free platform. Post-Covid politics will be interesting.

I suspect that will have had some influence too, but I think Brexit is a more important and, obviously, long-term effect.

[One Day Soon]

Which is why, in terms of Covid-19, the daily figures are not the figures to follow, instead the trends and 7 day figures are more accurate, and the line on the chart shows the trend not individual dots.

Except he wasn't talking about trends and this isn't Covid.

[lapsedhibee]

Five years a generation? That's building in some spectacularly short life expectancy...

Hard to see what life expectancy has to do with the definition of a generation.

[One Day Soon]

Not really, but had Labour been stronger a year ago we could be in a different place right now, and the consistant independence lead in polls would be less or even non existant.

On that we agree.

[One Day Soon]

Hard to see what life expectancy has to do with the definition of a generation.

A poorly worded reply. I should have said that this would be a spectacularly short breeding and reproduction interval, even by West Fife standards.

[Moulin Yarns]

Except he wasn't talking about trends and this isn't Covid.

No, and again you are being deliberately obtuse. Any graph, which takes points of data and averages them out to a line graph shows occassional outliers. The graph could instead have joined each point, but it would have been unreadable.

[CloudSquall]

Apart from the fact that the "once in a generation" line was never in any agreement between the two parliaments an SNP/Yes majority at next years election, elected on a manifesto promising a referendum, combined with poll after poll showing a majority for independence renders it obsolete.

Not to forget the Brexit game changer after the No campaign's insistance that voting yes meant no EU membership.

[One Day Soon]

No, and again you are being deliberately obtuse. Any graph, which takes points of data and averages them out to a line graph shows occassional outliers. The graph could instead have joined each point, but it would have been unreadable.


In fact you appear to be the one who is wilfully trying to misrepresent things here. This is what he said:

"Indeed.

And that in the face of the survey put up on a thread here, might even have been this one, just yesterday.


It showed that confidence in NS and the Scottish Government was higher than any other leader/party in all areas including those that the unionist clans traditionally claim are failing.


They're in an ever shrinking minority now and its hurting."



That was posted at 11.27 today and referred to the most recent opinion poll. The graph you are praying in aid wasn't even posted until after that at 12.26. So the point he was making about an ever shrinking minority related to the poll which had just shown the No vote ticking up by 2 percent.

So, is the trend for No down? Yes and the graph shows that.

Is No an ever shrinking minority? No and the last opinion poll shows that.

[One Day Soon]

Apart from the fact that the "once in a generation" line was never in any agreement between the two parliaments an SNP/Yes majority at next years election, elected on a manifesto promising a referendum, combined with poll after poll showing a majority for independence renders it obsolete.

Not to forget the Brexit game changer after the No campaign's insistance that voting yes meant no EU membership.


Peak CloudSquall. Something renders obsolete something else that apparently never existed.

[CloudSquall]

No used to bank on 10%+ leads in the polls, now a decrease in their pumping by a percent change within the margin of error is being celebrated, you love to see it:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

No used to bank on 10%+ leads in the polls, now a decrease in their pumping by a percent change within the margin of error is being celebrated, you love to see it:greengrin


How's the oxygen up there in the hyperbole-sphere?

[CloudSquall]

How's the oxygen up there in the hyperbole-sphere?

The Mendoza Malbec in sunny Buenos Aires is tasting just all that bit sweeter knowing how worked up I get you :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

The graph on the previous page shows support for the union is lower than ever been since the referendum, maybe even lower than its ever been in modern history and its a fairly steep slope down.

If roles were reversed you'd be cock-a-hoop.


It's all about the trends:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Scottish_independence_polling_with_local_regressio n_fit.png


Firstly, yes of course if the roles were reversed I'd be cock a hoop.

Second, that graph absolutely does not show support for the union lower than it has ever been since the referendum. Do you see the small red dot below and to the left of the end of the red line? THAT's the lowest point on that chart. That is also why it was inaccurate to say what you said.


No, and again you are being deliberately obtuse. Any graph, which takes points of data and averages them out to a line graph shows occassional outliers. The graph could instead have joined each point, but it would have been unreadable.


Every response in this conversation is about the graph. Until this where you make reference to a poll.


In fact you appear to be the one who is wilfully trying to misrepresent things here. This is what he said:

"Indeed.

And that in the face of the survey put up on a thread here, might even have been this one, just yesterday.


It showed that confidence in NS and the Scottish Government was higher than any other leader/party in all areas including those that the unionist clans traditionally claim are failing.


They're in an ever shrinking minority now and its hurting."



That was posted at 11.27 today and referred to the most recent opinion poll. The graph you are praying in aid wasn't even posted until after that at 12.26. So the point he was making about an ever shrinking minority related to the poll which had just shown the No vote ticking up by 2 percent.

So, is the trend for No down? Yes and the graph shows that.

Is No an ever shrinking minority? No and the last opinion poll shows that.


You can be really wearing trying to have a conversation with. Sometimes I wonder if you do it for fun :rolleyes:

[One Day Soon]

Every response in this conversation is about the graph. Until this where you make reference to a poll.




You can be really wearing trying to have a conversation with. Sometimes I wonder if you do it for fun :rolleyes:

You’re still choosing to ignore what he actually posted initially and which I replied to. His very first post is based on the poll, not the graph - which hadn’t even yet been posted on this thread when his original post was made - but the poll. His comment on the poll is what I responded to.

Stop being disingenuous about it. I have acknowledged what the subsequent graph shows but the poll is a different matter. For some reason you are unwilling or unable accept that.

Trust me I do not do this for fun. Venturing into someone else’s echo chamber is far from enjoyable. Perhaps it would be better if we ignored each other’s posts as they rarely seem to result in a conversation.

[One Day Soon]

The Mendoza Malbec in sunny Buenos Aires is tasting just all that bit sweeter knowing how worked up I get you :greengrin

That’s a bit sad really but whatever does it for you.

[Moulin Yarns]

You’re still choosing to ignore what he actually posted initially and which I replied to. His very first post is based on the poll, not the graph - which hadn’t even yet been posted on this thread when his original post was made - but the poll. His comment on the poll is what I responded to.

Stop being disingenuous about it. I have acknowledged what the subsequent graph shows but the poll is a different matter. For some reason you are unwilling or unable accept that.

Trust me I do not do this for fun. Venturing into someone else’s echo chamber is far from enjoyable. Perhaps it would be better if we ignored each other’s posts as they rarely seem to result in a conversation.

Now I get it.



Only you get to decide what I reply to. Thanks for clearing that up. The One Day Soon dictatorship rules.

At least we can agree on your last sentence.

[Keith_M]

That’s a bit sad really but whatever does it for you.


Then you'll probably be disappointed in my viewpoint...


I'm genuinely torn on Independence, not yet being totally convinced on the Economic argument, but reading your comments on here every day actually makes me want to vote Yes.


Sad, I know.

[Moulin Yarns]

Firstly, yes of course if the roles were reversed I'd be cock a hoop.

Second, that graph absolutely does not show support for the union lower than it has ever been since the referendum. Do you see the small red dot below and to the left of the end of the red line? THAT's the lowest point on that chart. That is also why it was inaccurate to say what you said.

Oh look, you have posted all about the graph with no reference to the poll. That can't be right because it is all about the poll, according to you. 🙄

[One Day Soon]

Then you'll probably be disappointed in my viewpoint...


I'm genuinely torn on Independence, not yet being totally convinced on the Economic argument, but reading your comments on here every day actually makes me want to vote Yes.


Sad, I know.


You'll be in that middle group then...

[Keith_M]

You'll be in that middle group then...


:greengrin

[G B Young]

This thread over the last wee while has shown that nobody is making the case for the union anymore. Lots saying NS is useless or the SG is hopeless but not a single poster saying anything positive about Westminster rule.


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For many, myself included, it was never about who 'ruled' us. A very large proportion of no voters back in 2014 voted the way they did for the simple reason they feel, and are content to feel Scottish and British. For me it wasn't a political issue until the SNP made it so. It's something that many 'independence at all costs' adherents failed to understand.

[One Day Soon]

:greengrin

I'm just a boy, standing in front of a First Minister in a block of roughly 45%, waiting to be wooed.

[One Day Soon]

Oh look, you have posted all about the graph with no reference to the poll. That can't be right because it is all about the poll, according to you. 🙄


Have we been talking at cross-purposes here? I have been referring to the original post and my response to it, but they're not shown in your post above quoting various exchanges starting with #13750 so maybe you missed them?

I don't mind having fairly energetic disagreement over something contentious but I wouldn't want to fall out over misinterpretation.

Here are the first two posts in my exchange with Jack:


Jack #13726:

"Indeed.

And that in the face of the survey put up on a thread here, might even have been this one, just yesterday.

It showed that confidence in NS and the Scottish Government was higher than any other leader/party in all areas including those that the unionist clans traditionally claim are failing.

They're in an ever shrinking minority now and its hurting."


One Day Soon #13727:

"You mean the ever shrinking minority that just went back up in the poll you are referring to? So, not actually ever shrinking."

[Smartie]

For many, myself included, it was never about who 'ruled' us. A very large proportion of no voters back in 2014 voted the way they did for the simple reason they feel, and are content to feel Scottish and British. For me it wasn't a political issue until the SNP made it so. It's something that many 'independence at all costs' adherents failed to understand.

As a "Yes" voter, this is the argument that I probably respect the most.

I wasn't as offended by Neil Oliver's article as most were. The emotional point about feeling like you're from these islands rather than from this end of this island is unarguable if that is how you feel. I guess the only question is whether or not enough people feel that way.

"Feeling" British is fine, and feeling like you're getting something taken away from you is understandable, wanting to resist that is acceptable.

Other arguments I respect - that life is good here - why risk it? We've not known war etc, there are a great many positives that we WOULD be risking. I think it's a risk worth taking, I don't fancy the future in a post-Brexit UK but I think we have to acknowledge that we might be risking what has been a decent life as part of the union with an unknown.

I have issues with condemning large swathes of England to eternal Tory hell, even if they may have jumped onto that particular bandwagon lately. There's still a bit of me that doesn't entirely want to sell many good people down the river. After the last election I'm more inclined to go "f them".


One way or another, post-Covid and post-Brexit we are in for a rough ride. I'm not so convinced by the "cannae use the pound" rubbish. Scotland has ample resource and "necessity being the mother of invention" we'd find a way round or over the technical obstacles so many people would wish to put in our way. I'd disagree with anyone who might say it would be easy, but I'm not aware anybody has ever said it would be.

[murray26]

As a "Yes" voter, this is the argument that I probably respect the most.

I wasn't as offended by Neil Oliver's article as most were. The emotional point about feeling like you're from these islands rather than from this end of this island is unarguable if that is how you feel. I guess the only question is whether or not enough people feel that way.

"Feeling" British is fine, and feeling like you're getting something taken away from you is understandable, wanting to resist that is acceptable.

Other arguments I respect - that life is good here - why risk it? We've not known war etc, there are a great many positives that we WOULD be risking. I think it's a risk worth taking, I don't fancy the future in a post-Brexit UK but I think we have to acknowledge that we might be risking what has been a decent life as part of the union with an unknown.

I have issues with condemning large swathes of England to eternal Tory hell, even if they may have jumped onto that particular bandwagon lately. There's still a bit of me that doesn't entirely want to sell many good people down the river. After the last election I'm more inclined to go "f them".


One way or another, post-Covid and post-Brexit we are in for a rough ride. I'm not so convinced by the "cannae use the pound" rubbish. Scotland has ample resource and "necessity being the mother of invention" we'd find a way round or over the technical obstacles so many people would wish to put in our way. I'd disagree with anyone who might say it would be easy, but I'm not aware anybody has ever said it would be.

Best post I’ve read on here for a long time👍

[lord bunberry]

It’s mental at a time when it’s clear that plan A is working so well and a refusal of a s30 order is something that Yes should seek to help build the case for democracy.


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Its blindingly obvious to most people that plan A is winning over more people than ever before. These nut jobs are doing more harm than good with their constant complaining.

[Skol]

As a "Yes" voter, this is the argument that I probably respect the most.

I wasn't as offended by Neil Oliver's article as most were. The emotional point about feeling like you're from these islands rather than from this end of this island is unarguable if that is how you feel. I guess the only question is whether or not enough people feel that way.

"Feeling" British is fine, and feeling like you're getting something taken away from you is understandable, wanting to resist that is acceptable.

Other arguments I respect - that life is good here - why risk it? We've not known war etc, there are a great many positives that we WOULD be risking. I think it's a risk worth taking, I don't fancy the future in a post-Brexit UK but I think we have to acknowledge that we might be risking what has been a decent life as part of the union with an unknown.

I have issues with condemning large swathes of England to eternal Tory hell, even if they may have jumped onto that particular bandwagon lately. There's still a bit of me that doesn't entirely want to sell many good people down the river. After the last election I'm more inclined to go "f them".


One way or another, post-Covid and post-Brexit we are in for a rough ride. I'm not so convinced by the "cannae use the pound" rubbish. Scotland has ample resource and "necessity being the mother of invention" we'd find a way round or over the technical obstacles so many people would wish to put in our way. I'd disagree with anyone who might say it would be easy, but I'm not aware anybody has ever said it would be.

I for one would welcome a more open debate but we seem to be entrenched on two sides and have been for some time. There is no real debate and its all about shooting each other down and debunking peoples views of the important issues

I do not consider myself British and in fact I am a very patriotic Scot. However when faced with the choice of first devolution and then independence I have had to really consider what I thought was best for Scotland. I would love for Scotland to be a successful independent country but based on the evidence I have seen , I just do not believe that we will be better off. In fact I see a much poorer future for Scotland as an Independent Nation. FWIW I voted No in both referendums and remain to be convinced that devolution is a good thing.

On the other hand I also do not like what is going on with the UK government and overall that is harming both the UK and Scotland. I actually find the whole thing quite depressing as Scotland appear to be accelerating towards independence in much the same way as the UK voted for Brexit without really knowing what that meant and what the impact would be. I would love to be rid of Boris and the current Tory government. But I do not think Sturgeon would be any better.

Rather than shoot me down as another misguided yoon, I would like some proper debate and some clear facts and figures that show me why Independence will be better for all of Scotland.

[Bristolhibby]

Problem is mate, there is no facts. Nobody knows the future. But there’s historical evidence to say that countries that have gained independence have been fine. The power is in their hands. It’s their decisions, good or bad to live by them.

That’s the real debate for me. Who should govern Scotland? The people of Scotland. Or the Parliament of Westminster, which is dominated by MPs that do not represent Scotland or its people.

J

[Snedz]

I for one would welcome a more open debate but we seem to be entrenched on two sides and have been for some time. There is no real debate and its all about shooting each other down and debunking peoples views of the important issues

I do not consider myself British and in fact I am a very patriotic Scot. However when faced with the choice of first devolution and then independence I have had to really consider what I thought was best for Scotland. I would love for Scotland to be a successful independent country but based on the evidence I have seen , I just do not believe that we will be better off. In fact I see a much poorer future for Scotland as an Independent Nation. FWIW I voted No in both referendums and remain to be convinced that devolution is a good thing.

On the other hand I also do not like what is going on with the UK government and overall that is harming both the UK and Scotland. I actually find the whole thing quite depressing as Scotland appear to be accelerating towards independence in much the same way as the UK voted for Brexit without really knowing what that meant and what the impact would be. I would love to be rid of Boris and the current Tory government. But I do not think Sturgeon would be any better.

Rather than shoot me down as another misguided yoon, I would like some proper debate and some clear facts and figures that show me why Independence will be better for all of Scotland.

I agree. If its simply exchanging one set of ruling elite for another then its pointless.

How are lives at the bottom of society to be changed for the better?

Can't see those in leafy surburbia being uprooted for those in Pilton or Niddrie, can you?

Not against Independence but how will it transform lives?

I'm for revolution myself, a kind of Trading Places film one that uproots those at the top end and replaces them with those at the bottom.

Get them out of their bungalows and gardens and into high rise flats.

[Moulin Yarns]

I agree. If its simply exchanging one set of ruling elite for another then its pointless.

How are lives at the bottom of society to be changed for the better?

Can't see those in leafy surburbia being uprooted for those in Pilton or Niddrie, can you?

Not against Independence but how will it transform lives?

I'm for revolution myself, a kind of Trading Places film one that uproots those at the top end and replaces them with those at the bottom.

Get them out of their bungalows and gardens and into high rise flats.

I think that's called communism 😉

[Snedz]

I think that's called communism 😉

Couldn't care less what its called.

For too long there's been a them and us society. Building lovely leafy homes for those at the top end while dumping those at the bottom into sub standard boxes.

How will independence reverse that?

[Future17]

Couldn't care less what its called.

For too long there's been a them and us society. Building lovely leafy homes for those at the top end while dumping those at the bottom into sub standard boxes.

How will independence reverse that?

So you want a "us and them" society?

[Snedz]

So you want a "us and them" society?

Seems I've rattled a few cages for wanting substantial change.

I'd love those at the top to be ousted from their leafy homes and given a taste of what some in real poverty undergo yes, I would.

[Peevemor]

I agree. If its simply exchanging one set of ruling elite for another then its pointless.

How are lives at the bottom of society to be changed for the better?

Can't see those in leafy surburbia being uprooted for those in Pilton or Niddrie, can you?

Not against Independence but how will it transform lives?

I'm for revolution myself, a kind of Trading Places film one that uproots those at the top end and replaces them with those at the bottom.

Get them out of their bungalows and gardens and into high rise flats.Maybe a nice sentiment but who decides on who gets sent where? You can't base anything on rash generalisations.

I was raised in a council flat. My parents are no longer with us but my brother, sister & myself are all owner occupiers in decent houses and each of us has worked hard to get where we are, yet you would have us sent back to a council flat.

Where's the justice in that?

[Snedz]

Maybe a nice sentiment but who decides on who gets sent where? You can't base anything on rash generalisations.

I was raised in a council flat. My parents are no longer with us but my brother, sister & myself are all owner occupiers in decent houses and each of us has worked hard to get where we are, yet you would have us sent back to a council flat.

Where's the justice in that?

I'd rather start again. Flatten the lot and reconstruct good housing for all. Kick those out of their big leafy suburbs and give the poor a taste of what they've got. It could be done with a dogged determination but won't as it will always be a case of the poor are bad and those who have are good. Nae worries.

[Callum_62]

I'd rather start again. Flatten the lot and reconstruct good housing for all. Kick those out of their big leafy suburbs and give the poor a taste of what they've got. It could be done with a dogged determination but won't as it will always be a case of the poor are bad and those who have are good. Nae worries.

Wheres the cut off though?

I was raised on a council estate, moved overseas and worked hard to get what we have (always remember living with no fridge for 4 months so we could save up to buy one)

I wouldn't class us as rich but comparatively to a lot of people in the world we would be

Would we be expected to leave our 4 bed house and return to a council flat?

[Snedz]

Wheres the cut off though?

I was raised on a council estate, moved overseas and worked hard to get what we have (always remember living with no fridge for 4 months so we could save up to buy one)

I wouldn't class us as rich but comparatively to a lot of people in the world we would be

Would we be expected to leave our 4 bed house and return to a council flat?

There's the division in a nutshell.

Would we be expected to leave our 4 bed house and return to a council flat?

Council flat!

By the way is now regarded as poor folks luxury. Having a Councli Flat set against the obscure notion of living in a leafy bungalow with gardens.

How the other half or smaller percentage aspire.

And some still argue against levelling the playing field. Dearie me.

[Callum_62]

There's the division in a nutshell.

Would we be expected to leave our 4 bed house and return to a council flat?

Council flat!

By the way is now regarded as poor folks luxury. Having a Councli Flat set against the obscure notion of living in a leafy bungalow with gardens.

How the other half or smaller percentage aspire.

And some still argue against levelling the playing field. Dearie me.

That's the point though we ended up coming from a flat to a 4 bed house

It wasn't handed to us and we sacrificed over many many years

Why would you expect us to downgrade what we have worked 1/2 our life to pay for?


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[Snedz]

That's the point though we ended up coming from a flat to a 4 bed house

It wasn't handed to us and we sacrificed over many many years

Why would you expect us to downgrade what we have worked 1/2 our life to pay for?


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Sacrifice is what levelling is all about.

Protectionism is what those at the top rely upon.

If you're not prepared to sacrifice then you're opinion is null and void.

I'm surprised at you Calumn as you've been vociferous independence.

Independence is our opportunity to demolish and level.

[Callum_62]

Sacrifice is what levelling is all about.

Protectionism is what those at the top rely upon.

If you're not prepared to sacrifice then you're opinion is null and void.

I'm surprised at you Calumn as you've been vociferous independence.

Independence is our opportunity to demolish and level.I agree independance would be a chance to develop a fairer society

Your route of appearing to sneer at folk in "leafy suburbs" who should be moved to high rises wouldn't be my version of independance and frankly wouldn't win an independance vote

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[Snedz]

I agree independance would be a chance to develop a fairer society

Your route of appearing to sneer at folk in "leafy suburbs" who should be moved to high rises wouldn't be my version of independance and frankly wouldn't win an independance vote

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How would it independence be fairer if it maintains status quo suburban leafiness while tightening poverty on those trapped in sub standard 'council flats' and other such dwellings?

What's the point? Apart from poverty bad possessions good?

[Ozyhibby]

How would it independence be fairer if it maintains status quo suburban leafiness while tightening poverty on those trapped in sub standard 'council flats' and other such dwellings?

What's the point? Apart from poverty bad possessions good?

The future you describe sounds a bit like East Germany. I doubt there are many votes in that on either side of the debate.
I agree that the quality of social housing needs to improve but I don’t see how knocking down houses helps with that?


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[Peevemor]

The future you describe sounds a bit like East Germany. I doubt there are many votes in that on either side of the debate.
I agree that the quality of social housing needs to improve but I don’t see how knocking down houses helps with that?


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From just last week.

"An additional £200m has been allocated to the Scottish government’s interim Affordable Housing Supply Programme in 2021/22, the Scottish communities secretary has announced.

This will be in addition to the £300m for 2021/22 announced by the Scottish government in February, bringing the total investment for next year to £500m."

https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/news/scottish-government-pumps-additional-200m-into-affordable-housing-next-year-68790

While there's always more that can be done, this issue isn't being ignored.

[Callum_62]

How would it independence be fairer if it maintains status quo suburban leafiness while tightening poverty on those trapped in sub standard 'council flats' and other such dwellings?

What's the point? Apart from poverty bad possessions good?I live in a development with affordable housing

The appear entirely fit for purpose

I don't see why telling someone who has worked hard for what they have that they need to move out of there house and area because they happen to have been more fortunate or worked harder to afford it

The folk in the high rises are much more fortunate than the folk that are homeless

Move them out to the streets and move the homeless in

Your basic premise of making a fairer society is valid and one I agree with but your solution is nonsense

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[Future17]

Seems I've rattled a few cages for wanting substantial change.

I'd love those at the top to be ousted from their leafy homes and given a taste of what some in real poverty undergo yes, I would.

It seems you wanted to rattle a few cages, but saying you've done that doesn't make it so. :greengrin

Rather than rattled cages, I see people trying to engage in a discussion with you to understand your point which it doesn't seem you've articulated very well.

What you've described as what you'd want an independent Scotland to be like isn't the same as what most supporters of independence want (in my experience). For that reason, it's unlikely that many will want or be able to tell you how that could happen.

It's a bit like someone posting "I don't see the point in independence unless Hearts can be champions every year"" and then asking other posters how that can be achieved.

[easty]

Seems I've rattled a few cages for wanting substantial change.

I'd love those at the top to be ousted from their leafy homes and given a taste of what some in real poverty undergo yes, I would.

While we’re at it, we should make the rich people pick up a job out the hat, whatever is written on the bit of paper is what they have to do. Heart surgeons being moved from their big houses into a council flat, and being turned into a window cleaner, overnight.

I’d also have the army standing at the entrance to Multrees Walk, taking the shopping bags off of people and then going door to door in Wester Hailes handing them out. Fairs fair.

Hope this is classed as rattling cages too, rather than just talking pish.

[Skol]

Snedz. Your solution kind of removes the incentive to work hard which in itself would create a while host of other issues.

[Moulin Yarns]

Snedz. Your solution kind of removes the incentive to work hard which in itself would create a while host of other issues.

I also think Snedz's solution involved too much alcohol. 😉

[DaveF]

I'm actually missing ODS and his furious frothing rants, over this nonsense 🙂

[One Day Soon]

While we’re at it, we should make the rich people pick up a job out the hat, whatever is written on the bit of paper is what they have to do. Heart surgeons being moved from their big houses into a council flat, and being turned into a window cleaner, overnight.

I’d also have the army standing at the entrance to Multrees Walk, taking the shopping bags off of people and then going door to door in Wester Hailes handing them out. Fairs fair.

Hope this is classed as rattling cages too, rather than just talking pish.


Wouldn't people just twig pretty quickly that shopping in Multrees Walk results in no shopping? The approach suggested sounds like a significant part of the plotline from Dr.Zhivago.

[One Day Soon]

I'm actually missing ODS and his furious frothing rants, over this nonsense 🙂

Aww, sweet. And I miss your random interventions too.

[Smartie]

I also think Snedz's solution involved too much alcohol. 😉

Strong vodka and listening to the red army choir I reckon.

Deep down, he makes a point that I agree with. I have an issue with the extremes that exist in the UK - our super rich are offensive (not to mention the Brits in tax havens) and it’s a disgrace that they exist whilst poverty also does at the level it does in this country and further afield.

Communism has been tried as a solution and it hasn’t worked anywhere.

The folk in the bungalows and the houses with gardens aren’t the problem and resentment of anyone who has that gets you nowhere.

I do think though that those who have more should be mindful of how easy it is to physically take it away if law and order breaks down - and therefore using political decisions to share a wee bit more around could go a long way to preserving those nice houses and bungalows.

[One Day Soon]

Strong vodka and listening to the red army choir I reckon.

Deep down, he makes a point that I agree with. I have an issue with the extremes that exist in the UK - our super rich are offensive (not to mention the Brits in tax havens) and it’s a disgrace that they exist whilst poverty also does at the level it does in this country and further afield.

Communism has been tried as a solution and it hasn’t worked anywhere.

The folk in the bungalows and the houses with gardens aren’t the problem and resentment of anyone who has that gets you nowhere.

I do think though that those who have more should be mindful of how easy it is to physically take it away if law and order breaks down - and therefore using political decisions to share a wee bit more around could go a long way to preserving those nice houses and bungalows.


Yes. It's a long, long road back to some kind of renewed social contract. And as Netflix's The Social Dilemma makes clear, the way we now communicate and have our communications shaped for us through social media means the echo chamber is king and we are less and less likely to be stop being divided and more and more likely to literally only hear what we want to hear.

[DaveF]

Aww, sweet. And I miss your random interventions too.

I know my limits 😁

[One Day Soon]

I know my limits 😁

"Stay in your lane Dad". A line delivered to a friend of mine by his 17 year old son during the summer, when they visited, when it was permitted.

[Keith_M]

The future you describe sounds a bit like East Germany. I doubt there are many votes in that on either side of the debate.
I agree that the quality of social housing needs to improve but I don’t see how knocking down houses helps with that?

...


East Germany had lots of leafy suburbs, it's just that you had to be reasonably high up in The Party to live there.

[Moulin Yarns]

East Germany had lots of leafy suburbs, it's just that you had to be reasonably high up in The Party to live there.

You mean in communist East Germany everyone was equal, just that some were more equal than others. 🤔

[Keith_M]

You mean in communist East Germany everyone was equal, just that some were more equal than others. ��


Exactly.

Access to University was also restricted to Party Members Only, as were quite a number of mid to high ranking jobs.


Incidentally, Vladimir Putin was stationed there when he was in the KGB. He was one of the lower ranking 'pigs' at that time but obviously learned a lot.

[Ozyhibby]

I would bet my life that the people doing well in our capitalist society would be the exact same people who would do well in a communist society. Everyone would be living in the same houses except we would all be a lot poorer.


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[Hibrandenburg]

East Germany had lots of leafy suburbs, it's just that you had to be reasonably high up in The Party to live there.

Ironically, most of the most equal from the equal lived in the new housing blocks that are today's eastern ghettos. Because all the resources were ploughed into new concrete jungles. These rabbit hutches were very popular because they had running water and central heating which was certainly not guaranteed in those older buildings that had somehow managed to stay standing after the war.

My first "Einsatzgebiet" on the ambulances just after the wall came down was in Berlin Mitte. Whenever we got called out to the highrise flats that adorn the Leipziger Straße you just knew that the patient was going to be originally from either Sachsen or Thüringen. During their time as General Secretary of the Central Committee Ulbricht and Honecker shipped in their party faithful from these regions and many of the DDR elite had "funny" accents. To this day many Prussians get an allergic reaction when they hear these dialects because they still connect it with the former communist regime. Even more ironic is that the movement that actually forced the fall of the wall had it's roots in Sachsen and Thüringen as well as the movement to rebuild walls (the AfD), both started there. My personal opinion is that they should be given forced independence and allowed to choose what their preferred dictatorship is and leave the rest of us in peace. :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

I would bet my life that the people doing well in our capitalist society would be the exact same people who would do well in a communist society. Everyone would be living in the same houses except we would all be a lot poorer.


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That's exactly how it turned out in the former East Germany with a few exceptions. Successful people are flexible and will adapt their behaviour to fit whatever framework they live in.

[Berwickhibby]

That's exactly how it turned out in the former East Germany with a few exceptions. Successful people are flexible and will adapt their behaviour to fit whatever framework they live in.

It would be interesting to visit East Germany now the wall is down, I remember traveling on the train and being chained in,and having to wear number 2s when going into East Germany and buying cheap crystal souvenirs

[Future17]

It would be interesting to visit East Germany now the wall is down, I remember traveling on the train and being chained in,and having to wear number 2s when going into East Germany and buying cheap crystal souvenirs

Now that does sound extreme! I'm not sure even Gary Locke would be prepared to do that!

[Berwickhibby]

Now that does sound extreme! I'm not sure even Gary Locke would be prepared to do that!

Lol :greengrin Number 2 dress.... best issued Army uniform lol 😂

[Hibrandenburg]

It would be interesting to visit East Germany now the wall is down, I remember traveling on the train and being chained in,and having to wear number 2s when going into East Germany and buying cheap crystal souvenirs

Never used the train, I either flew in or out of Gatow or took the car. What mob were you in?

[lord bunberry]

Ironically, most of the most equal from the equal lived in the new housing blocks that are today's eastern ghettos. Because all the resources were ploughed into new concrete jungles. These rabbit hutches were very popular because they had running water and central heating which was certainly not guaranteed in those older buildings that had somehow managed to stay standing after the war.

My first "Einsatzgebiet" on the ambulances just after the wall came down was in Berlin Mitte. Whenever we got called out to the highrise flats that adorn the Leipziger Straße you just knew that the patient was going to be originally from either Sachsen or Thüringen. During their time as General Secretary of the Central Committee Ulbricht and Honecker shipped in their party faithful from these regions and many of the DDR elite had "funny" accents. To this day many Prussians get an allergic reaction when they hear these dialects because they still connect it with the former communist regime. Even more ironic is that the movement that actually forced the fall of the wall had it's roots in Sachsen and Thüringen as well as the movement to rebuild walls (the AfD), both started there. My personal opinion is that they should be given forced independence and allowed to choose what their preferred dictatorship is and leave the rest of us in peace. :greengrin
Apologies for the thread hijack but is there still people now who want to go back to having 2 Germany’s?

[Ozyhibby]

Apologies for the thread hijack but is there still people now who want to go back to having 2 Germany’s?

No idea but I imagine there is because people always reminisce as if things were great in the past even when it was clearly crap. Can’t imagine it’s any different there.


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[degenerated]

Apologies for the thread hijack but is there still people now who want to go back to having 2 Germany’s?I was speaking to guys, would be in their early 50s nowI imagine, in a bar in Berlin the first time I went there and they were quite resentful of West Berliners and wanted a return to the split. They said they felt like 2nd class citizens, I was quite surprised as the wall had been down a good 10 years at that point.

[Hibrandenburg]

Apologies for the thread hijack but is there still people now who want to go back to having 2 Germany’s?

A tiny minority, but you do hear the phrase "Build the wall again but twice as high with a roof on top" used now and again, especially from West Germans and normally in relation to right wing demonstrations in the East and AfD bull****.

[Berwickhibby]

Never used the train, I either flew in or out of Gatow or took the car. What mob were you in?

I was a Sgt in the RAPC ... which got got amalgamated into the RLC after I had left

[Berwickhibby]

Apologies for the thread hijack but is there still people now who want to go back to having 2 Germany’s?

A lot of my German in-laws would support the East being independent. When the wall came down there was not a great love in as the press would have you believe. The introduction of the reunification tax etc caused a bit of moaning.

[One Day Soon]

Ironically, most of the most equal from the equal lived in the new housing blocks that are today's eastern ghettos. Because all the resources were ploughed into new concrete jungles. These rabbit hutches were very popular because they had running water and central heating which was certainly not guaranteed in those older buildings that had somehow managed to stay standing after the war.

My first "Einsatzgebiet" on the ambulances just after the wall came down was in Berlin Mitte. Whenever we got called out to the highrise flats that adorn the Leipziger Straße you just knew that the patient was going to be originally from either Sachsen or Thüringen. During their time as General Secretary of the Central Committee Ulbricht and Honecker shipped in their party faithful from these regions and many of the DDR elite had "funny" accents. To this day many Prussians get an allergic reaction when they hear these dialects because they still connect it with the former communist regime. Even more ironic is that the movement that actually forced the fall of the wall had it's roots in Sachsen and Thüringen as well as the movement to rebuild walls (the AfD), both started there. My personal opinion is that they should be given forced independence and allowed to choose what their preferred dictatorship is and leave the rest of us in peace. :greengrin


I found this post absolutely fascinating. The geographical nature of the East German power structures and the consequences afterwards would never have occurred to me. Are there any books om this stuff? Presumably remnants of the German far right also survived and continued to some degree albeit it deep, deep underground throughout the Communist years. We're way off the subject of the thread here I know but it's just too interesting not to ask about.

[Hibrandenburg]

I was a Sgt in the RAPC ... which got got amalgamated into the RLC after I had left

Did they have a unit in Berlin or were you attached. I was 229 Signal Squadron based in the Olympic Stadium. I was amongst the last out and basically locked the doors and handed over the keys.

[Smartie]

Apologies for the thread hijack but is there still people now who want to go back to having 2 Germany’s?

Not sure if this is the same, but I work with a Hungarian girl.

She says that there is still a fondness and respect for "mother Russia" amongst the older generation there. The discipline, the identity etc. Very different to the youth. I'd expect there to be something similar across much of the "Eastern Bloc"? I find it strange, as you'd think that those who lived under those regimes would be delighted to see the back of them.

[Berwickhibby]

Did they have a unit in Berlin or were you attached. I was 229 Signal Squadron based in the Olympic Stadium. I was amongst the last out and basically locked the doors and handed over the keys.

Being pay corps apart from CPO Rhinedahlen we were scattered in pay offices at every Regiment... I did work with some of you Scaleys at HQ 4 Armd Div and Sig Regt

[Hibrandenburg]

Being pay corps apart from CPO Rhinedahlen we were scattered in pay offices at every Regiment... I did work with some of you Scaleys at HQ 4 Armd Div and Sig Regt

When you said RAPC I thought you meant you were a Chunky in the Pioneer Corps. :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

When you said RAPC I thought you meant you were a Chunky in the Pioneer Corps. :greengrin

That’s your worst insult to date 🤣🤣🤣

[G B Young]

As a "Yes" voter, this is the argument that I probably respect the most.

I wasn't as offended by Neil Oliver's article as most were. The emotional point about feeling like you're from these islands rather than from this end of this island is unarguable if that is how you feel. I guess the only question is whether or not enough people feel that way.

"Feeling" British is fine, and feeling like you're getting something taken away from you is understandable, wanting to resist that is acceptable.

Other arguments I respect - that life is good here - why risk it? We've not known war etc, there are a great many positives that we WOULD be risking. I think it's a risk worth taking, I don't fancy the future in a post-Brexit UK but I think we have to acknowledge that we might be risking what has been a decent life as part of the union with an unknown.

I have issues with condemning large swathes of England to eternal Tory hell, even if they may have jumped onto that particular bandwagon lately. There's still a bit of me that doesn't entirely want to sell many good people down the river. After the last election I'm more inclined to go "f them".


One way or another, post-Covid and post-Brexit we are in for a rough ride. I'm not so convinced by the "cannae use the pound" rubbish. Scotland has ample resource and "necessity being the mother of invention" we'd find a way round or over the technical obstacles so many people would wish to put in our way. I'd disagree with anyone who might say it would be easy, but I'm not aware anybody has ever said it would be.

I've always felt 'Scottish' in the sense that we are a proud nation with our own distinct identity, but yes I've also always felt very much part of the UK as a whole, warts and all - and as you say it would feel very much like something that's part of me had been taken away were it to be broken apart. The term 'unionist' (now seemingly the default term for anyone who doesn't support independence) was never one I would have applied to myself as I used to associate that term more with Northern Ireland or Rangers. It would never have crossed my mind to launch into a table-thumping tirade about my pride in being British. It's just something I was always comfortable with.

I guess another reason it wasn't previously about politics for me was because I've never shared the frustration of nationalists about the supposed tyranny of 'rule' by England/London/Wesminster/the Tories etc, nor bought into the claim that Scotland never gets what it voted for. As I see it UK governments will come and go (ie if you can't abide Boris Johnson it's not as if he'll be PM for ever. Sir Keir Starmer is so far looking like the most electable Labour leader since Blair IMHO) and the make-up of our Scottish representation at Westminster will accurately reflect the way Scottish voters see things at general election time. The SNP certainly can't complain about our electoral system, bearing in mind the number of seats they have when measured against their percentage of the UK vote.

[Hibrandenburg]

I found this post absolutely fascinating. The geographical nature of the East German power structures and the consequences afterwards would never have occurred to me. Are there any books om this stuff? Presumably remnants of the German far right also survived and continued to some degree albeit it deep, deep underground throughout the Communist years. We're way off the subject of the thread here I know but it's just too interesting not to ask about.

I can't recommend any books but have a lot of anecdotal experience having friends and worked with lots of people from both sides, some of them very dodgy. I spent 8 years at a Fire Brigade watch just south of Berlin. I was there late 90's at the time where the Stasi files that had been recovered were made available to those who were mentioned in them with the names of others (Stasi agents and informers) blacked out. It turns out that half of the guys in the watch had been former stasi activists who got wind of what was coming and had retrained in medical professions shortly before the wall fell, our whole management had previously been either Stasi or Border Guard officers or senior ranks. The other half of the team were victims of stasi espionage and some of them had even done time or received other punishments for crimes against the State. As a Scotsman I was pretty much the fly on the wall and was in the confidence of guys from both sides.

[Berwickhibby]

I can't recommend any books but have a lot of anecdotal experience having friends and worked with lots of people from both sides, some of them very dodgy. I spent 8 years at a Fire Brigade watch just south of Berlin. I was there late 90's at the time where the Stasi files that had been recovered were made available to those who were mentioned in them with the names of others (Stasi agents and informers) blacked out. It turns out that half of the guys in the watch had been former stasi activists who got wind of what was coming and had retrained in medical professions shortly before the wall fell, our whole management had previously been either Stasi or Border Guard officers or senior ranks. The other half of the team were victims of stasi espionage and some of them had even done time or received other punishments for crimes against the State. As a Scotsman I was pretty much the fly on the wall and was in the confidence of guys from both sides.

All those guard duty’s and fire piquets stood you in good stead... or are you an ex liney so pulling hoses was second nature lol 😂

[Hibrandenburg]

All those guard duty’s and fire piquets stood you in good stead... or are you an ex liney so pulling hoses was second nature lol 😂

Not a liney and I can't tell you what I was doing without having to kill you afterwards :wink: , let's just say I was a couple of pay grades higher than your average shiny arse.

[Berwickhibby]

[QUOTE=Hibrandenburg;6372121]Not a liney and I can't tell you what I was doing without having to kill you afterwards :wink: , let's just say I was a couple of pay grades higher than your average shiny arse.[/QUOTE

Then you were one of three bleep jobs.... Tech, Spec op or RTG ...all the rest were on the same pay banding as RAPC

[Ozyhibby]

I've always felt 'Scottish' in the sense that we are a proud nation with our own distinct identity, but yes I've also always felt very much part of the UK as a whole, warts and all - and as you say it would feel very much like something that's part of me had been taken away were it to be broken apart. The term 'unionist' (now seemingly the default term for anyone who doesn't support independence) was never one I would have applied to myself as I used to associate that term more with Northern Ireland or Rangers. It would never have crossed my mind to launch into a table-thumping tirade about my pride in being British. It's just something I was always comfortable with.

I guess another reason it wasn't previously about politics for me was because I've never shared the frustration of nationalists about the supposed tyranny of 'rule' by England/London/Wesminster/the Tories etc, nor bought into the claim that Scotland never gets what it voted for. As I see it UK governments will come and go (ie if you can't abide Boris Johnson it's not as if he'll be PM for ever. Sir Keir Starmer is so far looking like the most electable Labour leader since Blair IMHO) and the make-up of our Scottish representation at Westminster will accurately reflect the way Scottish voters see things at general election time. The SNP certainly can't complain about our electoral system, bearing in mind the number of seats they have when measured against their percentage of the UK vote.

I think if you feel British then that’s as good a reason as any to be a unionist.
The economic arguments don’t really work either way for me. I know just now that Scotland is doing very poorly compared to our independent neighbours but in the past has done better. I could easily have been persuaded by federalism in the past but it’s no longer an option.
Right now, the UK is run for the benefit of the SE of England as that’s where the votes are. There is no focus elsewhere. Certainly not on Scotland. There is no plan to improve on our poor performance at all. It’s just being ignored as if it wasn’t happening.
The current set up just does not work for us. We have no proper control over our lives. We have to stop blaming Westminster for everything and start making decisions for ourselves. The only way that Scotland can start to improve its economy is through independence. There is no plan for that within the union. We have to do it ourselves.


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[Snedz]

I think if you feel British then that’s as good a reason as any to be a unionist.
The economic arguments don’t really work either way for me. I know just now that Scotland is doing very poorly compared to our independent neighbours but in the past has done better. I could easily have been persuaded by federalism in the past but it’s no longer an option.
Right now, the UK is run for the benefit of the SE of England as that’s where the votes are. There is no focus elsewhere. Certainly not on Scotland. There is no plan to improve on our poor performance at all. It’s just being ignored as if it wasn’t happening.
The current set up just does not work for us. We have no proper control over our lives. We have to stop blaming Westminster for everything and start making decisions for ourselves. The only way that Scotland can start to improve its economy is through independence. There is no plan for that within the union. We have to do it ourselves.


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My question would be -

Improve the economy for whom?

For the already well off?

For those at the bottom end?

For those in the middle?

For the poor, unemployed, unemployable, sick, elderly etc?

For whom and how will it improve lives unless major structural transformation is unveiled?

[One Day Soon]

I can't recommend any books but have a lot of anecdotal experience having friends and worked with lots of people from both sides, some of them very dodgy. I spent 8 years at a Fire Brigade watch just south of Berlin. I was there late 90's at the time where the Stasi files that had been recovered were made available to those who were mentioned in them with the names of others (Stasi agents and informers) blacked out. It turns out that half of the guys in the watch had been former stasi activists who got wind of what was coming and had retrained in medical professions shortly before the wall fell, our whole management had previously been either Stasi or Border Guard officers or senior ranks. The other half of the team were victims of stasi espionage and some of them had even done time or received other punishments for crimes against the State. As a Scotsman I was pretty much the fly on the wall and was in the confidence of guys from both sides.

That’s a book waiting to be written. Actually there must be some decent accounts out there of the transition and what happened next. I’ve meant for some time to look for a write up of the post-war evolution of former Nazis into the political and economic mainstream because I’ve seen numerous ad-hoc pieces or references to it but never seen a single work that reviews it all. That post war period of the split Germany must have been horrendous on so many levels, hard not to forgive whatever transgressions took place and look forward instead I’d guess.

[StevieC]

Not sure if this is the same, but I work with a Hungarian girl.

She says that there is still a fondness and respect for "mother Russia" amongst the older generation there. The discipline, the identity etc. Very different to the youth. I'd expect there to be something similar across much of the "Eastern Bloc"? I find it strange, as you'd think that those who lived under those regimes would be delighted to see the back of them.

I’ve had similar experiences with some of the older generation in Ukraine.
Despite most being worse off in Soviet times, I think they look back with tinted glasses regarding the security around jobs, pensions and accommodation.

[lord bunberry]

No idea but I imagine there is because people always reminisce as if things were great in the past even when it was clearly crap. Can’t imagine it’s any different there.


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I was speaking to guys, would be in their early 50s nowI imagine, in a bar in Berlin the first time I went there and they were quite resentful of West Berliners and wanted a return to the split. They said they felt like 2nd class citizens, I was quite surprised as the wall had been down a good 10 years at that point.


A tiny minority, but you do hear the phrase "Build the wall again but twice as high with a roof on top" used now and again, especially from West Germans and normally in relation to right wing demonstrations in the East and AfD bull****.
Cheers, I hadn’t really given the matter any thought as I presumed everyone was delighted the wall had come down.

[lord bunberry]

A lot of my German in-laws would support the East being independent. When the wall came down there was not a great love in as the press would have you believe. The introduction of the reunification tax etc caused a bit of moaning.
Obviously you’d be against that mate :greengrin

[lord bunberry]

Not sure if this is the same, but I work with a Hungarian girl.

She says that there is still a fondness and respect for "mother Russia" amongst the older generation there. The discipline, the identity etc. Very different to the youth. I'd expect there to be something similar across much of the "Eastern Bloc"? I find it strange, as you'd think that those who lived under those regimes would be delighted to see the back of them.
Funnily enough I used to work with a polish guy and they were all taught that Russia was their great friend and protector.

[Berwickhibby]

Obviously you’d be against that mate :greengrin

It was irrelevant to me, but my wife got meet family for the first time in her life....

[lapsedhibee]

Cheers, I hadn’t really given the matter any thought as I presumed everyone was delighted the wall had come down.

It's not unknown for people born blind who gain their sight in later life to regret the change.

[degenerated]

Funnily enough I used to work with a polish guy and they were all taught that Russia was their great friend and protector.That sounds a familiar tactic. [emoji848]

[marinello59]

Funnily enough I used to work with a polish guy and they were all taught that Russia was their great friend and protector.

I’ve spent a fair bit of time in Poland over the past 15 months and my experience has been that there is no great love of Russia there at all, they are fiercely independent.

[Moulin Yarns]

My question would be -

Improve the economy for whom?

For the already well off?

For those at the bottom end?

For those in the middle?

For the poor, unemployed, unemployable, sick, elderly etc?

For whom and how will it improve lives unless major structural transformation is unveiled?

If you have the question do you also have any answers how to achieve what you want?

[Glory Lurker]

GBY, I know it would take much, much more than this to even nudge your opinion but I feel as proudly EU-European as I did five years ago.

[Jones28]

If you have the question do you also have any answers how to achieve what you want?

Communism by the sounds of it.

FWIW there has to be a change, independence is the only way we can influence the future cos it ain’t gonna happen under the current circumstances. There must be a lifting of the bottom rung. A good start would be to ensure a minimum living standard; could a universal basic income be a solution to that? It would do away with the requirement for food banks and enable people to take positive steps.

[Skol]

Communism by the sounds of it.

FWIW there has to be a change, independence is the only way we can influence the future cos it ain’t gonna happen under the current circumstances. There must be a lifting of the bottom rung. A good start would be to ensure a minimum living standard; could a universal basic income be a solution to that? It would do away with the requirement for food banks and enable people to take positive steps.

The original question is a bit odd as the answer is pretty obvious.

Regarding UBI while that is a good principle it would Needto be paid for somehow and I am not clear how that would be achieved. What do we sacrifice for it?

[1875godsgift]

The original question is a bit odd as the answer is pretty obvious.

Regarding UBI while that is a good principle it would Needto be paid for somehow and I am not clear how that would be achieved. What do we sacrifice for it?

Greed.

Introduce a universal maximum income.

[Skol]

Greed.

Introduce a universal maximum income.

Ok so something like 100% tax for earnings over let’s say £200k? And ensuring no dodges like shares etc. How much does that bring in and how does that compare to the cost of UBI.

What potential risks are there and how would they be mitigated.

[Since90+2]

Greed.

Introduce a universal maximum income.

That will never happen aswell intentioned as it may be.

[Ozyhibby]

Ok so something like 100% tax for earnings over let’s say £200k? And ensuring no dodges like shares etc. How much does that bring in and how does that compare to the cost of UBI.

What potential risks are there and how would they be mitigated.

That would never work. High earners would leave Scotland and we would have less tax to spend.


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[degenerated]

Ok so something like 100% tax for earnings over let’s say £200k? And ensuring no dodges like shares etc. How much does that bring in and how does that compare to the cost of UBI.

What potential risks are there and how would they be mitigated.Income tax is a very blunt instrument, the best way of raising money for that sort of thing would be a consumption tax. The level of the tax would be based upon price elasticity and demand.
These are the sort of things an independent Scotland could do rather than playing around the fringes of income tax as it is allowed to do just now.

[Skol]

That would never work. High earners would leave Scotland and we would have less tax to spend.


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That was exactly my point about the risks.

[Skol]

Income tax is a very blunt instrument, the best way of raising money for that sort of thing would be a consumption tax. The level of the tax would be based upon price elasticity and demand.
These are the sort of things an independent Scotland could do rather than playing around the fringes of income tax as it is allowed to do just now.

Sounds like a Hearts Season Ticket :-)

On a serious note, how would you see that work ? and how would you ensure the tax hits the target population ?

[greenlex]

That would never work. High earners would leave Scotland and we would have less tax to spend.


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They wouldn’t leave they would just not want to earn past the tax limit. Very few if any are going to work for nothing or at best to fund the tax Bill 100%

[hibsbollah]

That would never work. High earners would leave Scotland and we would have less tax to spend.


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....said every right wing opponent of progressive taxation, ever. With that logic you may as well campaign for a flat rate.

[Ozyhibby]

....said every right wing opponent of progressive taxation, ever. With that logic you may as well campaign for a flat rate.

It’s not like there is no evidence of it happening.
If you bring in a 100% tax, what is the incentive to earn more? Surely you would just decide to give yourself an easier life with more family time or just move abroad?


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[Keith_M]

Apologies for the thread hijack but is there still people now who want to go back to having 2 Germany’s?


Yes, loads of the older generation mumble about putting the wall back up. Especially the ones in Dresden... when I'm visiting them.

:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

It’s not like there is no evidence of it happening.
If you bring in a 100% tax, what is the incentive to earn more? Surely you would just decide to give yourself an easier life with more family time or just move abroad?


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Its interesting how the 'what are the incentives?' pure capitalist argument only applies to the super rich. What incentives are there for low and middle earners to work hard in a flat tax economy where there is no 'break the glass ceiling' ladder' in sight?

There is evidence of some higher rate tax payers leaving, there is also evidence of some higher rate tax payers staying in high tax societies because of the wider benefits. As ever, it depends on individual and what their priorities are. I know mine.

[PeeJay]

East Germany had lots of leafy suburbs, it's just that you had to be reasonably high up in The Party to live there.

Not true actually - plenty of leafy suburbs here, but shiny new high-rise flats (Plattenbau - prefabricated concrete slabs) in Berlin in Karl-Marx Allee (B5 - Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5207243,13.4212011,3a,75y,108.29h,83.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_kWyLk58jvd8PVQrdankdw!2e0!6s% 2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D_kWyLk58jvd8P VQrdankdw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_ sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26y aw%3D222.69867%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i1331 2!8i6656)) or elsewhere were what party members really wanted - most of the houses in the leafy suburbs were in a shocking condition ... they still were in 89 and later for some time, like most of the "country" ...

.. and before you start, you didn't have to be a party member to get a Trabi or a telephone either :greengrin



Exactly.

Access to University was also restricted to Party Members Only, as were quite a number of mid to high ranking jobs.


Incidentally, Vladimir Putin was stationed there when he was in the KGB. He was one of the lower ranking 'pigs' at that time but obviously learned a lot.

Again - not true, you did not have to be a party member to go to uni - it's just not true - and the East German Parliament also had members sitting in it that were not "party members" (not many. I'll grant you that, so that's not true either :greengrin

Ministerrat der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik – Wikipedia (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministerrat_der_Deutschen_Demokratischen_Republik)

[Jack]

Has any country ever tried this as a tax regime?

Basically what we have now with taxes of say 50% from the £200k level but instead of increasing it again at say £400k bring it down to 40% and so on.

Punters get taxed but have a big incentive to earn more.

% and earning levels are indicative.

[Ozyhibby]

Its interesting how the 'what are the incentives?' pure capitalist argument only applies to the super rich. What incentives are there for low and middle earners to work hard in a flat tax economy where there is no 'break the glass ceiling' ladder' in sight?

There is evidence of some higher rate tax payers leaving, there is also evidence of some higher rate tax payers staying in high tax societies because of the wider benefits. As ever, it depends on individual and what their priorities are. I know mine.

I’m not arguing for a flat tax.


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[hibsbollah]

I’m not arguing for a flat tax.


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No, I get that. Its always easier to claim something wouldn't work than come up with an alternative.

[PeeJay]

Apologies for the thread hijack but is there still people now who want to go back to having 2 Germany’s?

Not "really", most people are more than happy with reunification and know it to be the right thing, but some people on both sides mutter about putting the wall back up again - those in the "West" because it is costing "us" so much and "they" are ungrateful - and those here in the "East" because some of them seem to have forgotten what their "pretend" country was really like before the "wall came down" and "we fixed" it for them ... :rolleyes:

... speaking of pretend country, that brings us neatly back to the notion of independence for ... and thread on topic again?? ... :sofa: ... :greengrin

[Smartie]

I think we place far too much value on our super rich and can never really understand why we feel the need to pander to them so much.

I wouldn’t really have that much of an issue with a “don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out” approach.

They tend to be very good at avoiding tax anyway.

We do need to be careful with punitive tax disincentives - but mainly for middle earners, the type we need to really power an economy.

I don’t mind the idea of a 100% tax on over, say, £250k per year. Who really needs more than that? How unique and valuable are the skills of those earning more than that? Would we not be better trying to get as many people as possible out of poverty, and others working towards earning at that level? I think that becomes more achievable when you don’t have so much cream being skimmed off for a chosen few that we strangely hold in such high regard.

[Moulin Yarns]

In other, slightly old, news, Luxury watch manufacturer relocates from England to Perth because of Brexit

https://www.heraldscotland.com/business_hq/18904456.luxury-watch-firms-move-scotland-future-working-home/



A LUXURY watch business (https://www.heraldscotland.com/business_hq/) upped sticks from Henley-on-Thames and moved to Scotland because of its political outlook earlier this year, and is now closing in on its long-held ambition to assemble timepieces on these shores.


Marloe Watch Company made headlines when it revealed that Brexit (https://www.heraldscotland.com/brexit/) had been a key factor in its decision to relocate to Perth in February, with its directors noting then that a Scottish base “sits better with our values as a pro-Remain organisation”.

Now, why would a young company choose to move 400+ miles? :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

No, I get that. Its always easier to claim something wouldn't work than come up with an alternative.

I wouldn’t change the rates that much, I would set them at a level that brings in the most money. That’s probably close to where they are now.
I would simplify the system massively and get rid of all the different deductions and loopholes that results in business people spending more time studying the tax rules than actually getting their product to market. The UK has terrible productivity levels and that is a major reason why. The less accountants working in a business, the more efficient it will be. It also deters foreign business’s from investing here if they know that they are going to have to hire a team of lawyers and accountants on top of whatever they need to make their products.


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[Ozyhibby]

I think we place far too much value on our super rich and can never really understand why we feel the need to pander to them so much.

I wouldn’t really have that much of an issue with a “don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out” approach.

They tend to be very good at avoiding tax anyway.

We do need to be careful with punitive tax disincentives - but mainly for middle earners, the type we need to really power an economy.

I don’t mind the idea of a 100% tax on over, say, £250k per year. Who really needs more than that? How unique and valuable are the skills of those earning more than that? Would we not be better trying to get as many people as possible out of poverty, and others working towards earning at that level? I think that becomes more achievable when you don’t have so much cream being skimmed off for a chosen few that we strangely hold in such high regard.

So a successful musician who earns £250k through selling his records may decide not to bother with a tour that year as he can’t earn any more anyway. Who needs more than £250k a year anyway.
What about the loss of jobs from that tour? Roadies, concert halls, cleaners, rig hire companies, promoters, marketing people, printers, ticketing companies, caterers, food suppliers etc etc all out of work because nobody needs to earn more than £250k a year? Do you really think that’s a good idea?


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[hibsbollah]

So a successful musician who earns £250k through selling his records may decide not to bother with a tour that year as he can’t earn any more anyway. Who needs more than £250k a year anyway.
What about the loss of jobs from that tour? Roadies, concert halls, cleaners, rig hire companies, promoters, marketing people, printers, ticketing companies, caterers, food suppliers etc etc all out of work because nobody needs to earn more than £250k a year? Do you really think that’s a good idea?


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Since the tax would be payable at year end, the tour would have already happened and would just be part of that years activity, all of which would have been taxable. So no decision to go ahead or not go ahead would have to be made :greengrin

Anyway, I’d imagine that only earnings that sit as earned wealth, not invested in tech, education or training for example, would be taxable. So in this hypothetical system there’s likely to be an actual increase in the proportion of wealth invested in a business, and hence its productivity, than a decrease as you suggest. In the current system, the incentive for Sir Philip Green is to use the wealth that his employees have made for him and use it to buy another super yacht and park it up in Monaco.

[degenerated]

Sounds like a Hearts Season Ticket :-)

On a serious note, how would you see that work ? and how would you ensure the tax hits the target population ?It would be pretty challenging i imagine and would need a mix of measures. Varying ad valorem tax rates on goods and services based on necessity versus luxury/aspirational and based on the elasticity of their pricing.

The biggest issue would be that by purely taxing consumption it benefits savers rather than spenders and as low income households spend more of their income than they save then there would need to be a mixture of tax on savings and investments and also a big change to income tax to remove the lower income households altogether.

I'm not an economist by any stretch of the imagination so it might be unworkable. And worth bearing in mind what the Brits imposing such a tax on tea caused in America. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Since the tax would be payable at year end, the tour would have already happened and would just be part of that years activity, all of which would have been taxable. So no decision to go ahead or not go ahead would have to be made :greengrin

Anyway, I’d imagine that only earnings that sit as earned wealth, not invested in tech, education or training for example, would be taxable. So in this hypothetical system there’s likely to be an actual increase in the proportion of wealth invested in a business, and hence its productivity, than a decrease as you suggest. In the current system, the incentive for Sir Philip Green is to use the wealth that his employees have made for him and use it to buy another super yacht and park it up in Monaco.

So you only want personal income taxed at 100% but income from investments is ok? Doesn’t sound that progressive to me?


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[hibsbollah]

So you only want personal income taxed at 100% but income from investments is ok? Doesn’t sound that progressive to me?


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I don’t know what you mean by investment income being ‘ok’ :dunno: Perhaps it would be taxable but not at the 100% rate? I haven’t given the actual figure too much thought. But in normal circumstances if you invest in your business that investment isn’t taxed in the same way as your standard income, there’s nothing new there.

It’s probably best for the purposes of this thread to think about how these policy choices apply to making an independent Scotland a better and fairer place to live.

[Keith_M]

Not true actually - plenty of leafy suburbs here, but shiny new high-rise flats (Plattenbau - prefabricated concrete slabs) in Berlin in Karl-Marx Allee (B5 - Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5207243,13.4212011,3a,75y,108.29h,83.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_kWyLk58jvd8PVQrdankdw!2e0!6s% 2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D_kWyLk58jvd8P VQrdankdw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_ sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26y aw%3D222.69867%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i1331 2!8i6656)) or elsewhere were what party members really wanted - most of the houses in the leafy suburbs were in a shocking condition ... they still were in 89 and later for some time, like most of the "country" ...

.. and before you start, you didn't have to be a party member to get a Trabi or a telephone either :greengrin




Again - not true, you did not have to be a party member to go to uni - it's just not true - and the East German Parliament also had members sitting in it that were not "party members" (not many. I'll grant you that, so that's not true either :greengrin

Ministerrat der Deutschen Demokratischen Republik – Wikipedia (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministerrat_der_Deutschen_Demokratischen_Republik)



I'm going by what my Wife and Sister-In-Law told me. They were both at school in DDR times (in Dresden) and had no option to go to University.

The leafy suburbs definitely existed in areas outside of Berlin. For instance, Radebeul (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radebeul), next to Dresden, is where the higher up party members from Sachsen lived.

My wife's father worked for the railway and it was always made clear that opportunities for advancement were available... if he joined The Party.



But yes, they did eventually get a Trabi :wink:

[Skol]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-55199058

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-55199058

Yep, I can see that being a vote winner for the tories

[One Day Soon]

How many top rate taxpayers do we currently have in Scotland? If the top rate of tax was cut significantly is there a point where we would start to see rUK top rate taxpayers relocating here in order to pay less tax? If that was the case how many would need to relocate to create a net increase in tax revenue overall despite the tax cut? Equally what is the breaking point at which higher rate taxpayers in Scotland might consider relocating to rUK due to higher tax levels? It would seem likely that it would have to be pretty chunky amounts to cause physical relocation in both cases.

I'd be interested to know what the Scottish business tax base looks like compared to the Scottish income tax payer revenues. You would think that growing the tax base of both types ought to be the medium to long term objective, rather than looking only to raise tax percentages.

[CropleyWasGod]

How many top rate taxpayers do we currently have in Scotland? If the top rate of tax was cut significantly is there a point where we would start to see rUK top rate taxpayers relocating here in order to pay less tax? If that was the case how many would need to relocate to create a net increase in tax revenue overall despite the tax cut? Equally what is the breaking point at which higher rate taxpayers in Scotland might consider relocating to rUK due to higher tax levels? It would seem likely that it would have to be pretty chunky amounts to cause physical relocation in both cases.

I'd be interested to know what the Scottish business tax base looks like compared to the Scottish income tax payer revenues. You would think that growing the tax base of both types ought to be the medium to long term objective, rather than looking only to raise tax percentages.

Successive Scottish governments, going back to the days of Jack McConnell, have made the point that Scotland is underpopulated. As immigration is reserved, we've been prevented from growing the personal tax base, as you suggest we try and do.

Under independence, we would have the opportunity to do just that. But that would have to be as the result of attracting large employers, which is not an easy task in light of competition from India and the likes. Low corporate tax rates would help, at least in situations where we were in competition with rUK and the EU.

[Skol]

How many top rate taxpayers do we currently have in Scotland? If the top rate of tax was cut significantly is there a point where we would start to see rUK top rate taxpayers relocating here in order to pay less tax? If that was the case how many would need to relocate to create a net increase in tax revenue overall despite the tax cut? Equally what is the breaking point at which higher rate taxpayers in Scotland might consider relocating to rUK due to higher tax levels? It would seem likely that it would have to be pretty chunky amounts to cause physical relocation in both cases.

I'd be interested to know what the Scottish business tax base looks like compared to the Scottish income tax payer revenues. You would think that growing the tax base of both types ought to be the medium to long term objective, rather than looking only to raise tax percentages.

IIRC the threshold for higher rate tax is lower in scotland (£43k v £50k I think) and in addition the NI conts on the difference are higher meanting you pay 53% tax on the gap

[CropleyWasGod]

IIRC the threshold for higher rate tax is lower in scotland (£43k v £50k I think) and in addition the NI conts on the difference are higher meanting you pay 53% tax on the gap

NI isn't devolved,so the rates are the same throughout the UK.

[cabbageandribs1875]

In other, slightly old, news, Luxury watch manufacturer relocates from England to Perth because of Brexit

https://www.heraldscotland.com/business_hq/18904456.luxury-watch-firms-move-scotland-future-working-home/






Now, why would a young company choose to move 400+ miles? :wink:



me me me.... is it because they know what's coming sir :)

[Moulin Yarns]

me me me.... is it because they know what's coming sir :)

That's kind of what it suggests. 😁

[PeeJay]

I'm going by what my Wife and Sister-In-Law told me. They were both at school in DDR times (in Dresden) and had no option to go to University.

The leafy suburbs definitely existed in areas outside of Berlin. For instance, Radebeul (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radebeul), next to Dresden, is where the higher up party members from Sachsen lived.

My wife's father worked for the railway and it was always made clear that opportunities for advancement were available... if he joined The Party.



But yes, they did eventually get a Trabi :wink:

... nothing like a happy end to a story ... :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Education policy in the newly independent Scotia including language.


Here's a poyum, in Scots, about Scots. It's called 'I'm no havin' children' and it's for ma wee mammy. X https://t.co/0EEtc8PUTm

[Keith_M]

... nothing like a happy end to a story ... :greengrin


A man went into a Trabant dealership and said to the salesman: "I'd like to buy a Trabant with a two-tone color scheme please?

The salesman replied: "Certainly sir, we have one with that colour scheme, plus power steering, cruise control, adjustable power seats, air conditioning, and a digital instrument panel".

The man replied: "You're joking!".

The dealer responded: "Well, you started it!"

[lord bunberry]

A man went into a Trabant dealership and said to the salesman: "I'd like to buy a Trabant with a two-tone color scheme please?

The salesman replied: "Certainly sir, we have one with that colour scheme, plus power steering, cruise control, adjustable power seats, air conditioning, and a digital instrument panel".

The man replied: "You're joking!".

The dealer responded: "Well, you started it!"
A man goes into a Trabant dealership and says “I bought a car from you yesterday it only gets up to 60 on the street where I live. The dealer says “that’s not too bad. The customer “it’s useless I live at number 70”

[Keith_M]

A man goes into a Trabant dealership and says “I bought a car from you yesterday it only gets up to 60 on the street where I live. The dealer says “that’s not too bad. The customer “it’s useless I live at number 70”


:greengrin

[matty_f]

Since the tax would be payable at year end, the tour would have already happened and would just be part of that years activity, all of which would have been taxable. So no decision to go ahead or not go ahead would have to be made :greengrin

Anyway, I’d imagine that only earnings that sit as earned wealth, not invested in tech, education or training for example, would be taxable. So in this hypothetical system there’s likely to be an actual increase in the proportion of wealth invested in a business, and hence its productivity, than a decrease as you suggest. In the current system, the incentive for Sir Philip Green is to use the wealth that his employees have made for him and use it to buy another super yacht and park it up in Monaco.

Or they could do tour and just use the extra revenue to make sure the folk that have to work to make it happen get paid more. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/uk-politics/1800415/boris-johnson-scottish-independence/

Boris says yes. 😁

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-brown-line-head-labour-23142265.amp?__twitter_impression=true

It’s too late for this kind of stuff. The electorate have now moved on to independence after years of this being promised and those promises broken. Desperate stuff.


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[danhibees1875]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-brown-line-head-labour-23142265.amp?__twitter_impression=true

It’s too late for this kind of stuff. The electorate have now moved on to independence after years of this being promised and those promises broken. Desperate stuff.


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I don't think it's too late at all - it will be interesting to see what comes out of it.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think it's too late at all - it will be interesting to see what comes out of it.

Brown promised federalism in 2014 and broke that promise. Why would people trust him again? And Labour not looking like getting power anytime soon anyway so can’t deliver no matter what they promise.


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-brown-line-head-labour-23142265.amp?__twitter_impression=true

It’s too late for this kind of stuff. The electorate have now moved on to independence after years of this being promised and those promises broken. Desperate stuff.


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The guy is a dinosaur, and I apologise to any Stegosaurus's who are reading this

[marinello59]

I don't think it's too late at all - it will be interesting to see what comes out of it.

I agree. Soft Yes voters will be interested.

[Ozyhibby]

I agree. Soft Yes voters will be interested.

Only if it was implemented before a referendum. Doubt people would be swayed by promises that would only be delivered if Labour ever won power again and then went on to keep their word.


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[Mon Dieu4]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-brown-line-head-labour-23142265.amp?__twitter_impression=true

It’s too late for this kind of stuff. The electorate have now moved on to independence after years of this being promised and those promises broken. Desperate stuff.


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The vow 2.0

[danhibees1875]

Brown promised federalism in 2014 and broke that promise. Why would people trust him again? And Labour not looking like getting power anytime soon anyway so can’t deliver no matter what they promise.


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I don't remember what he promised or if he was in a position to do so, but this all seems a bit more deliberate and thought through.

I think it will be interesting to see what they propose and how they pursue it through parliament, being in opposition won't help them but doesn't mean they can't produce something for the government to pass through.

[marinello59]

Only if it was implemented before a referendum. Doubt people would be swayed by promises that would only be delivered if Labour ever won power again.


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That would be a dangerous assumption to make. He isn’t speaking to people like me and you who will vote Yes no matter what other option is out there.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-brown-line-head-labour-23142265.amp?__twitter_impression=true

It’s too late for this kind of stuff. The electorate have now moved on to independence after years of this being promised and those promises broken. Desperate stuff.


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Gordon Brown will save the union with his own style of slam-poetry:

"Oan yonder hill, there stood a vow, it's no there now, it must huv shifted"....2014

"Well jings ma crivins, what wid yeh Ken, yon Schrödingers vow is back again".

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't remember what he promised or if he was in a position to do so, but this all seems a bit more deliberate and thought through.

I think it will be interesting to see what they propose and how they pursue it through parliament, being in opposition won't help them but doesn't mean they can't produce something for the government to pass through.

It seems to be forgotten that there is already a Scottish Constitutional Convention, debated at Holyrood on 20/02/2020 in a question from Patrick Harvey.


https://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2020-02-20.30.0


Constitutional Convention
1. Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green): To ask the Scottish Government what plans it has for a new constitutional convention. (S5O-04137)

The Cabinet Secretary for the Constitution, Europe and External Affairs (Michael Russell): I will be inviting members to participate in a new constitutional convention, which will aim to secure a consensus across Scottish society on Scotland’s right to choose. I will shortly consult party leaders and Parliament on the detail.

Patrick Harvie: It has often struck me as a little odd that those who are most hostile to independence are often those who are least likely to propose a coherent alternative or another way of improving Scotland’s constitutional status and governance, instead of independence. If they are willing to take this one final opportunity to put something positive on to the table, I will welcome it. Does the cabinet secretary agree that, as well as dealing with the domestic constitutional questions, we should also have room for discussion about how we can broaden and deepen Scotland’s relationship with other countries, including but not limited to those in Europe, and about our ability to forge those relationships in our own way and on our own terms?

Michael Russell: I agree with the member, and he makes an important point. We are talking about openness to discussion, particularly, as I said in my earlier answer, about a consensus on Scotland’s right to choose. There might well be different points of view on the ultimate destination. As I hear from the members to the right-hand side of me, some believe that we have already reached the destination. In those circumstances, openness to debate and discussion is the hallmark of a democracy, and I hope we might all—[Interruption.] The hallmark of a democracy is not shouting while somebody else is speaking. The hallmark of a democracy is being able to have that debate, and I look forward to it.

Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): I look forward to engaging in exchanges with the cabinet secretary in a constructive way as we go forward. In that vein, as every week goes by, does it not demonstrate that this idea of a constitutional convention is just a back-of-a-fag-packet notion that has been dreamed up to placate the pro-independence fanatics on the Scottish National Party back benches? How much will the taxpayer have to pay to fund this vanity exercise?

Michael Russell: I welcome Murdo Fraser to his new role, and I look forward to a continuing redefinition of the English language. The word “constructive” has just been redefined; no doubt there will be more. The cost to Scotland of the Brexit process, in which we are engaged, into which we have been dragged, and for which we did not vote, will mean enormous harm. We are also now hearing the sensible voices of those who are not mad nationalists by any means, pointing out the disastrous consequences of that for Scotland. All those things make me believe that the expensive option is staying with the status quo.

Fulton MacGregor (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP): Despite the differing views on independence in the Parliament, I am sure that we all agree that the people of Scotland should decide on their own future. In light of the cast-iron mandate for another referendum from the public and the Parliament, does the cabinet secretary agree that the United Kingdom Government’s plans to block a second poll are simply unsustainable?

Michael Russell: I note that a wider range of people are pointing to the unsustainable nature of the UK Government’s position. The book event that former speaker of the House of Commons Mr Bercow—he was a Conservative—did last night was yet another indication that people who are looking at the situation will say to themselves that there is a basic problem with the attitude of the UK Government. It looks as if it has no interest either in democracy or the voice of the Scottish people. That is a bad look in any democracy. I hope that the UK Government will realise what a bad look that is and come back into the democratic mainstream.

Alex Rowley (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab): I welcome the opportunity to have a discussion. At the present time in Scotland, I do not think that a majority is demanding a second independence referendum. I have made clear that the right of the Scottish people to determine their own future is absolute, and it is something that the Labour Party will support. However, for me, the discussion should be about how best we move forward, and in doing so, if we reach a point in the future at which there is clearly a demand for a referendum, it should not be denied. Is the cabinet secretary open to having a wider discussion for those of us who reject the status quo and want to see far greater devolution? Is that issue on the table for discussion?

Michael Russell: Yes, of course it is on the table for discussion and I respect Mr Rowley’s position on the matter. I would want to debate it with him and say that I believe that he is wrong with regard to the demand that exists. I would point to the way in which that demand is being expressed, including through elections. I would also point to the fact that December’s manifestos indicated that the election was about Scotland having the right to choose, which was indicated very strongly. Of course, I respect Mr Rowley’s position as a democrat that he does not believe that independence is the solution at this time, but I am glad about his openness to the continuation of the process. That is precisely what Scotland should be talking about and I want to create the opportunity for Scotland to do so, not narrowly among politicians, but more widely. I will put forward a set of proposals that will start the process, and if Mr Rowley and the Labour Party intend to contribute to that process on the terms that he has given, I will be delighted.

[weecounty hibby]

That boat has sailed. It's all every well proposing a federal solution to Scotland as there is clearly an appetite for change. But and this is the biggy, try getting Westminster to agree to that for England. You can't have a federal Scotland without a federal England and that will never happen. Again he and Labour seem to be proposing something that they can't deliver. It may sway some but not many I think

[Moulin Yarns]

Gordon Brown will save the union with his own style of slam-poetry:

"Oan yonder hill, there stood a vow, it's no there now, it must huv shifted"....2014

"Well jings ma crivins, what wid yeh Ken, yon Schrödingers vow is back again".

:not worth

[danhibees1875]

It seems to be forgotten that there is already a Scottish Constitutional Convention, debated at Holyrood on 20/02/2020 in a question from Patrick Harvey.


https://www.theyworkforyou.com/sp/?id=2020-02-20.30.0

I'm sorry, I don't want to ignore you since you quoted me to post this but I don't understand the point? Does the existence of this undermine the Labour efforts at a UK level?

Is this an ongoing thing or something that was just briefly discussed 10 months ago? - I could understand why it would be sidelined since then.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm sorry, I don't want to ignore you since you quoted me to post this but I don't understand the point? Does the existence of this undermine the Labour efforts at a UK level?

Is this an ongoing thing or something that was just briefly discussed 10 months ago? - I could understand why it would be sidelined since then.

I may have misunderstood, as I'm not clicking a Daily Record link, but this thread is about Scottish Independence. If what Brown is proposing is for the whole of the UK then, as others have said, it's a non starter. Labour have no power for at least another 4 years, maybe if a Labour MP in England was to propose a Convention it might get some support, but he is irrelevant now. I don't even know if he is a peer.

[One Day Soon]

Only if it was implemented before a referendum. Doubt people would be swayed by promises that would only be delivered if Labour ever won power again and then went on to keep their word.


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I agree. Something like this could put a significant dent in independence but not as a promise conditional upon a future Labour government. If I were in the room right now I'd be saying that it needs a clear timescale, buy-in that includes the Conservatives and I'd also propose a clear transition period from where we are now to wherever it is proposed to get to. I'd like a federal UK with just defence and foreign affairs at UK level but eliminating a £15 billion structural deficit for Scotland won't happen overnight so I'd be looking for a transition fund that guarantees to close that gap for every year of the transition - the longer the transition the softer the landing in trying to close the gap so around twenty years seems a fair bet.

On the other hand we may still be fannying around with constitutional politics in 2030 having neither federated nor become independent. God help us.

[Moulin Yarns]

I agree. Something like this could put a significant dent in independence but not as a promise conditional upon a future Labour government. If I were in the room right now I'd be saying that it needs a clear timescale, buy-in that includes the Conservatives and I'd also propose a clear transition period from where we are now to wherever it is proposed to get to. I'd like a federal UK with just defence and foreign affairs at UK level but eliminating a £15 billion structural deficit for Scotland won't happen overnight so I'd be looking for a transition fund that guarantees to close that gap for every year of the transition - the longer the transition the softer the landing in trying to close the gap so around twenty years seems a fair bet.

On the other hand we may still be fannying around with constitutional politics in 2030 having neither federated nor become independent. God help us.

Your final sentence is almost guaranteed. Tories don't want any kind of devolved powers to the regions and Labour, while paying lip service won't/can't deliver. The only true federalist party are the LibDems, 'nuff said.

[danhibees1875]

I may have misunderstood, as I'm not clicking a Daily Record link, but this thread is about Scottish Independence. If what Brown is proposing is for the whole of the UK then, as others have said, it's a non starter. Labour have no power for at least another 4 years, maybe if a Labour MP in England was to propose a Convention it might get some support, but he is irrelevant now. I don't even know if he is a peer.

Yes, it was about the impact of such a proposal on the prospects of independence.

It's Starmers idea, brown will likely be involved/lead it so I'm not brown's relevance is necessarily that much of a factor.

I just don't really get the stamping of the feet negative reaction from people who want to see some form of change, this just gives an additional version of change.

[The Modfather]

Yes, it was about the impact of such a proposal on the prospects of independence.

It's Starmers idea, brown will likely be involved/lead it so I'm not brown's relevance is necessarily that much of a factor.

I just don't really get the stamping of the feet negative reaction from people who want to see some form of change, this just gives an additional version of change.

I’d be interested in hearing the details as I’m open to true federalism. However, as others have mentioned, unless it’s a cross party proposal with a definitive implementation date its nothing more than smoke and mirrors with no viable way to deliver it. Like the vow in 2014. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...

[Keith_M]

Yes, it was about the impact of such a proposal on the prospects of independence.

It's Starmers idea, brown will likely be involved/lead it so I'm not brown's relevance is necessarily that much of a factor.

I just don't really get the stamping of the feet negative reaction from people who want to see some form of change, this just gives an additional version of change.


If people had reason to believe it was genuine, it may have been welcomed a bit more.

However, when it's simply a re-hash of the same promise, from the same person that made it the last time.. and was never delivered... then surely you can understand the scepticism this time round?

[JeMeSouviens]

Among the myriad problems with any new proposal along these lines is what they mean by "federal". A proper federal state consists of federated parts that come together on an equal basis with a constitution that treats them all equally. In the UK this would mean killing the ultimate sacred cow - the sovereignty of the Westminster parliament. Chances of this happening are as close to zero as makes no difference. But if that was a genuine commitment I'd be happy to listen.

If it's just another rework of devolution intended to buy off the pesky Jocks with as little as can possibly be conceded, not so much.

Although, even if I was listening, it would be with a great deal of scepticism that any new UK arrangement would match up to what's on offer with 27 other European states.

[danhibees1875]

If people had reason to believe it was genuine, it may have been welcomed a bit more.

However, when it's simply a re-hash of the same promise, from the same person that made it the last time.. and was never delivered... then surely you can understand the scepticism this time round?

At the moment it's not a promise from anyone but if it does happen it'll be from Starmer as leader of the Labour party not from Brown as MP for Kirkcaldy as he was at the time.
Brown's name has just been thrown in the ring for a headline as a likely person to spearhead Starmer's group.
I can't remember what was promised at the time but this feels less thrown together last minute than that was.


This just feels like them announcing the beginning of looking into something, not promising X or Y will happen or when. I think it'll be interesting to see what the come up with and I just don't understand what there is to be skeptical about at this point.

[Keith_M]

Another issue with the notion of the UK as a Federal State is that it appears that there's an extremely large opposition to such a notion in England.

The uproar of Johnson's remarks about devolution actually occurred at a meeting he was having with a group of Tory MPs from the north of England, where he was actually using it to illustrate why Federalism is a bad idea. The MPs themselves were in wide agreement with this.

I've yet to hear any substantial promises from the party that has been in power for the last ten years, and currently don't appear to be going anywhere, about Federalism.



And in total Columbo like fashion; Just one more thing. Can you imagine living in a country called the 'Federal United Kingdom' and having the acronym on the front of your passport?

:hmmm:

[SHODAN]

Imagine if Brown was as committed and as passionate in opposing the Tories from 2007-10 as he is about opposing Scottish independence. They might have actually won the election.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes, it was about the impact of such a proposal on the prospects of independence.

It's Starmers idea, brown will likely be involved/lead it so I'm not brown's relevance is necessarily that much of a factor.

I just don't really get the stamping of the feet negative reaction from people who want to see some form of change, this just gives an additional version of change.

Federalism was once something I could have voted for but it’s too late for that now. Too many broken promises and it’s clear that there is no way it can be delivered. It’s an idea that has no support where it matters, in England.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Another issue with the notion of the UK as a Federal State is that it appears that there's an extremely large opposition to such a notion in England.

The uproar of Johnson's remarks about devolution actually occurred at a meeting he was having with a group of Tory MPs from the north of England, where he was actually using it to illustrate why Federalism is a bad idea. The MPs themselves were in wide agreement with this.

I've yet to hear any substantial promises from the party that has been in power for the last ten years, and currently don't appear to be going anywhere, about Federalism.



And in total Columbo like fashion; Just one more thing. Can you imagine living in a country called the 'Federal United Kingdom' and having the acronym on the front of your passport?

:hmmm:

Nope, as a grammar national socialist, I'd have to insist we're called the Federal United and Commonwealth Kingdom.

[JeMeSouviens]

Nope, as a grammar national socialist, I'd have to insist we're called the Federal United and Commonwealth Kingdom.

Confederation of United National Territorial States

FTW!

[Hibrandenburg]

Confederation of United National Territorial States

FTW!

Where do I get the t-shirt?

[Keith_M]

Where do I get the t-shirt?


In 'The Sunlit Uplands' (details below).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F1akK3yJ-Y

[degenerated]

I agree. Soft Yes voters will be interested.They'd be fools to trust him on it being delivered

[JeMeSouviens]

In 'The Sunlit Uplands' (details below).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F1akK3yJ-Y

He's basically just a posh Benny Hill ... without the gravitas. :rolleyes:

[lord bunberry]

Brown promised federalism the last time, a few years later he claimed the vow had been delivered on. How come he’s now proposing federalism again? He must think people button up the back.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/130587229_3846546905363956_7062149820571650757_o.j pg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=jD418oQlZ68AX_a9qbm&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=cb415aeb8fa3a970790242c28be03bdd&oe=5FF8CCE8



**** off brown you old goat

and as someone has already said...fool us once etc

[Callum_62]

Is leaving the EU with no trade deal classed as a material change in circumstances?

Or does that need to be followed up by an SNP win in.... Sorry a SNP super majority in next election.... Sorry once in a generation.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,show-me-the-money

Interesting article on currency.


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[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,show-me-the-money

Interesting article on currency.


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James, James, come and have a **** over this!

[CloudSquall]

No one can seriously believe that anyone under the age of 85 is going to be buying what Gordon Brown says about federalism?

I'll take some of that prime time Bolivian coke you are on if so.

[Callum_62]

In all seriousness how the fk can anyone defend this union anymore?

Genuine question

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[Ozyhibby]

In all seriousness how the fk can anyone defend this union anymore?

Genuine question

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A lot less people are these days.[emoji106]


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[1 8 7 5]

In all seriousness how the fk can anyone defend this union anymore?

Genuine question

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Totally Callum.

[Ozyhibby]

Here’s an attempt at defending it, sort of. I think.

https://www.effiedeans.com/2020/12/a-no-deal-nail-in-snp-coffin.html?m=1


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[lapsedhibee]

Here’s an attempt at defending it, sort of. I think.

https://www.effiedeans.com/2020/12/a-no-deal-nail-in-snp-coffin.html?m=1


Doesn't think independent Scots could thole the EU:
"If you have shown that you can’t bear to be in one union, why would anyone think you could long bear to be in another?"

Right. So there's no point in getting divorced and then marrying someone else. That couldn't possibly work out. :crazy:

[JeMeSouviens]

Doesn't think independent Scots could thole the EU:
"If you have shown that you can’t bear to be in one union, why would anyone think you could long bear to be in another?"

Right. So there's no point in getting divorced and then marrying someone else. That couldn't possibly work out. :crazy:

The attempt to paint equivalence between the UK state and the EU union is just breathtakingly stupid.

[GlesgaeHibby]

In all seriousness how the fk can anyone defend this union anymore?

Genuine question

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It can't be defended. Once no deal is confirmed, Nicola Sturgeon should use the mandate she already has and request a section 30 order.

The sooner we escape this catastrophe the better.

[Jones28]

It can't be defended. Once no deal is confirmed, Nicola Sturgeon should use the mandate she already has and request a section 30 order.

The sooner we escape this catastrophe the better.

Agree with the sentiment but I think people are politically fatigued. I certainly am and the idea of another campaign fills me with dread.

Once people start to see the impact of Brexit, maybe in 3/4 years, we should go for it.

[lord bunberry]

Agree with the sentiment but I think people are politically fatigued. I certainly am and the idea of another campaign fills me with dread.

Once people start to see the impact of Brexit, maybe in 3/4 years, we should go for it.
No way we should wait that long. After next years election a request will be made for a section 30 order, if that’s refused it will go to the courts.

[Moulin Yarns]

I had a very pleasant evening yesterday watching The Big Indy Night In by 'Voices for Scotland' put on a day of discussion, debate and entertainment all introduced by Elaine C. Smith. She must have been knackered by the end. 7 hours on screen for most of the time.

I believe it will be available for a while.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Agree with the sentiment but I think people are politically fatigued. I certainly am and the idea of another campaign fills me with dread.

Once people start to see the impact of Brexit, maybe in 3/4 years, we should go for it.

I get that people are politically fatigued - I feel it myself. I think the impact from no deal will be so severe the SNP leadership need to step up and take action pronto.

The SNP leadership have been very good at talk, but not so good at action. If no deal is confirmed in the coming days Nicola Sturgeon needs to get that section 30 request in within days imo. She's been given mandates in 2015,2016,2017 and 2019. Time to step up and use them.

[heretoday]

Agree with the sentiment but I think people are politically fatigued. I certainly am and the idea of another campaign fills me with dread.

Once people start to see the impact of Brexit, maybe in 3/4 years, we should go for it.


Hear Hear! We're all fed up with it and we've had Covid on top. Geez peace for a bit!

[Ozyhibby]

Hear Hear! We're all fed up with it and we've had Covid on top. Geez peace for a bit!

Democracy never stops. There is always something that needs decided. You should never get tired of voting.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Agree with the sentiment but I think people are politically fatigued. I certainly am and the idea of another campaign fills me with dread.

Once people start to see the impact of Brexit, maybe in 3/4 years, we should go for it.

I understand the sentiment but the longer we leave it, the longer it will take to get back into the EU.

[lord bunberry]

Hear Hear! We're all fed up with it and we've had Covid on top. Geez peace for a bit!
Not we’re not all fed up with it.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Not we’re not all fed up with it.


but but...the poster used the word WE, as in "WE" meaning all of the people, everyone, all of us





:(

[CloudSquall]

"I know that there is a majority of you now in favor of independence but we´re all a bit fed up with the politics so we´re going to put our feet up for a bit and let Boris and co get on with Brexit".


Sound strategy right enough.

[lord bunberry]

but but...the poster used the word WE, as in "WE" meaning all of the people, everyone, all of us





:(
I stand corrected :wink:

[Skol]

In all seriousness how the fk can anyone defend this union anymore?

Genuine question

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I dont think its about defending the Union but seeking some evidence that Independence is going to be better with answers to some key questions

[StevieC]

I had a very pleasant evening yesterday watching The Big Indy Night In by 'Voices for Scotland' put on a day of discussion, debate and entertainment all introduced by Elaine C. Smith. She must have been knackered by the end. 7 hours on screen for most of the time.

I believe it will be available for a while.

Is that the one you needed to purchase access to?

Where is it now available?

[The Modfather]

I dont think its about defending the Union but seeking some evidence that Independence is going to be better with answers to some key questions

That’s fair. It’s also fair to ask much of the same questions and see the same kind of evidence about the post Brexit union we would be choosing to stay in and what that will look like.

[Moulin Yarns]

Is that the one you needed to purchase access to?

Where is it now available?

It was a tenner for 7 hours of entertainment.

Let me check how you can access it.

Well worth it in my opinion

[Skol]

That’s fair. It’s also fair to ask much of the same questions and see the same kind of evidence about the post Brexit union we would be choosing to stay in and what that will look like.

I don’t disagree. There is too much of this bluff and bluster out there.

[Moulin Yarns]

It was a tenner for 7 hours of entertainment.

Let me check how you can access it.

Well worth it in my opinion

https://voicesforscotland.scot/events/

There will be information on there about replays.

[Jones28]

No way we should wait that long. After next years election a request will be made for a section 30 order, if that’s refused it will go to the courts.

The SNP need time and hard evidence to further build the case for Indy, I don't need convincing but I know lots of people that admire NS after Corona, but would still reject independence on economic grounds.


I get that people are politically fatigued - I feel it myself. I think the impact from no deal will be so severe the SNP leadership need to step up and take action pronto.

The SNP leadership have been very good at talk, but not so good at action. If no deal is confirmed in the coming days Nicola Sturgeon needs to get that section 30 request in within days imo. She's been given mandates in 2015,2016,2017 and 2019. Time to step up and use them.

They certainly have a mandate, multiple ones like you say, but for me its too soon. Once people see material difference in their lives and the SNP can say "Brexit is causing this, here's how, here's what we can do to return to a more normal existence.


Hear Hear! We're all fed up with it and we've had Covid on top. Geez peace for a bit!

I don't mean to contradict myself, but I think being bored of Covid is a wee bit different to political fatigue!


I understand the sentiment but the longer we leave it, the longer it will take to get back into the EU.

Why do you say that? Genuinely curios, is there some sort of timeline?

[degenerated]

The SNP need time and hard evidence to further build the case for Indy, I don't need convincing but I know lots of people that admire NS after Corona, but would still reject independence on economic grounds.



They certainly have a mandate, multiple ones like you say, but for me its too soon. Once people see material difference in their lives and the SNP can say "Brexit is causing this, here's how, here's what we can do to return to a more normal existence.



I don't mean to contradict myself, but I think being bored of Covid is a wee bit different to political fatigue!



Why do you say that? Genuinely curios, is there some sort of timeline?The more the regulations and laws imposed upon Scotland diverge from the European norms the longer it would take to satisfy them of our capability of complying.
As we currently comply with all of them there would be no issue just now.

[Ozyhibby]

The SNP need time and hard evidence to further build the case for Indy, I don't need convincing but I know lots of people that admire NS after Corona, but would still reject independence on economic grounds.



They certainly have a mandate, multiple ones like you say, but for me its too soon. Once people see material difference in their lives and the SNP can say "Brexit is causing this, here's how, here's what we can do to return to a more normal existence.



I don't mean to contradict myself, but I think being bored of Covid is a wee bit different to political fatigue!



Why do you say that? Genuinely curios, is there some sort of timeline?

I would say for evidence, look at all the independent nations around us. Look at the higher standard of living they all enjoy.
And look at the state of Scotlands finances and ask yourself, is there a plan to fix it within the union or is the plan to carry on as we are?
The SNP have promised to peg any new currency with the pound to protect people’s assets. That’s a good choice.
All the evidence is there if you are open to it.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Why do you say that? Genuinely curios, is there some sort of timeline?

No, there's no strict timeline, but the more Scots law diverges from EU law, the longer it will take to realign. It's currently fully compliant, so you could imagine Scotland could be admitted to the EEA almost immediately while full membership negotiations take place. The more chance we give Boris & co to **** this up for us, the worse things become.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.survation.com/scotland-political-polling-december-2020/

16th poll in a row in favour of YES.


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[Jones28]

https://www.survation.com/scotland-political-polling-december-2020/

16th poll in a row in favour of YES.


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It's good, but it's still too tight.

[Glory Lurker]

In the wrong direction but still merits...

Here we go
Here we go
Here we go!

[murray26]

It’s baffling that it’s still so close

[Callum_62]

https://www.survation.com/scotland-political-polling-december-2020/

16th poll in a row in favour of YES.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's a win for the unionists 100%



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[marinello59]

It’s baffling that it’s still so close

Why?

[JeMeSouviens]

Why?

Well, for a start why would anyone be daft enough to disagree with me? :confused::rolleyes::wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

Strange thing jumps out of that sample. Men are 55-45 for No, Women 58-42 for Yes. :confused:

I'm going to have to go back and look but I don't remember Yes ever being so disproportionately favoured by the fairer sex.

[Ozyhibby]

Strange thing jumps out of that sample. Men are 55-45 for No, Women 58-42 for Yes. :confused:

I'm going to have to go back and look but I don't remember Yes ever being so disproportionately favoured by the fairer sex.

Pretty sure it was the other way round in 2014?


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[marinello59]

Well, for a start why would anyone be daft enough to disagree with me? :confused::rolleyes::wink:

:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/lifestyle/edinburgh-experts-draw-plan-floating-tube-bridge-linking-scotland-and-northern-ireland-3067444

Now we’re talking. Union saved.[emoji6]


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/lifestyle/edinburgh-experts-draw-plan-floating-tube-bridge-linking-scotland-and-northern-ireland-3067444

Now we’re talking. Union saved.[emoji6]

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That's bonkers.

[Keith_M]

Strange thing jumps out of that sample. Men are 55-45 for No, Women 58-42 for Yes. :confused:

I'm going to have to go back and look but I don't remember Yes ever being so disproportionately favoured by the fairer sex.


I feel for you mate. That's been my experience with women as well.

[JeMeSouviens]

I feel for you mate. That's been my experience with women as well.

They disproportionately agree with you? :confused:

Clearly you have the magic touch. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

An Irish economist writes about Brexit: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/the-break-up-of-the-united-kingdom-has-just-accelerated/


As the Brexit reality sets in and the incipient political, economic, financial and social instability in the friendless, and fragile UK becomes clear, capital and talent will flood in here. The Republic of Ireland is the one common-law, American-friendly, trading entrepot with full access to the 500 million market of the EU.

The investment decisions in corporate boardrooms all over the world will favour Ireland. Existing networks and alliances will all count. Remember, we sell to people we know, and we do business with people we are comfortable with. So, Ireland is in a strong position to benefit from technology transfers, capital investment and migrating talent.

This is absolutely also why an iScotland can succeed if we get our act together.

[CloudSquall]

An Irish economist writes about Brexit: http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/the-break-up-of-the-united-kingdom-has-just-accelerated/



This is absolutely also why an iScotland can succeed if we get our act together.

It's what needs hammered home when Ross and co play the "internal market" card.

[cabbageandribs1875]

scotland will lose 3 seats in the UK parliament
wales will lose 4

england will gain 10


what's not to like in this union of equals

[Keith_M]

They disproportionately agree with you? :confused:

Clearly you have the magic touch. :wink:


:greengrin



Sadly not. It's that the word 'No' was the one that I've experienced most from women.

[Mr Grieves]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-shows-scottish-independence-support-surging-joint-record-levels-snp-set-majority-3070791

Scotsman poll has Yes 58 No 42

[ronaldo7]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-shows-scottish-independence-support-surging-joint-record-levels-snp-set-majority-3070791

Scotsman poll has Yes 58 No 42

It's happening.

[Glory Lurker]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-shows-scottish-independence-support-surging-joint-record-levels-snp-set-majority-3070791

Scotsman poll has Yes 58 No 42

Ooft. Here we go, etc.

That'll be why the front page of the Scotsman's not on the "today's papers" on the BBC Scotland news website today! :-)

[Ozyhibby]

I suspect the real figure is somewhere around the 55% which is still amazing. The lead is now consistent. Once people start to realise independence is the better option, it’s unlikely that they will go back to thinking that dependence is the way forward. That’s why 45% held firm after 2014 and there was no return to the sub 30% numbers seen previously.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201217/276582c40029b72afc1f41cfe67eceb7.jpg

Eventually everyone will work it out.


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[Jones28]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-shows-scottish-independence-support-surging-joint-record-levels-snp-set-majority-3070791

Scotsman poll has Yes 58 No 42

Thats more like it.

[Berwickhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201217/276582c40029b72afc1f41cfe67eceb7.jpg

Eventually everyone will work it out.


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How about a bit of true perspective....Thatcher closed most of the coal mines which was Wales biggest industry and Wales have never properly recovered.

[Moulin Yarns]

How about a bit of true perspective....Thatcher closed most of the coal mines which was Wales biggest industry and Wales have never properly recovered.

Agreed, but Thatcher was Westminster, so the idea that Wales could do beteer away from Westminster rule still applies. :wink:

[Berwickhibby]

Agreed, but Thatcher was Westminster, so the idea that Wales could do beteer away from Westminster rule still applies. :wink:

How?... coal is a fuel of the past...I doubt they would have been any better off :wink::greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Polls eh?

[Ozyhibby]

How?... coal is a fuel of the past...I doubt they would have been any better off :wink::greengrin

I think if Wales had been run from Cardiff then a lot of time and effort might have been put into plotting a better economic future for Wales. How much thought has went into it from Westminster?


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[Kato]

I think if Wales had been run from Cardiff then a lot of time and effort might have been put into plotting a better economic future for Wales. How much thought has went into it from Westminster?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe phrase was "managed decline" for those communities. Along with a civilising offensive to dismantle any kind of class unity, which worked. The idea that a Tory government would plan to make Wales have a successful economy is laughable. They are expected to live off the bones thrown from the financial services in London, and that is it.

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[Ozyhibby]

New UN Human Development index is out. How many of that top ten are small independent countries close to us?

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/latest-human-development-index-ranking


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[Jack]

How about a bit of true perspective....Thatcher closed most of the coal mines which was Wales biggest industry and Wales have never properly recovered.

What about what really happened. Thatcher closed down industries all over the UK and did nothing for those thrown on the scrapheap or for the areas to recover. While at the same time the torys were gerrymandering and lining the pockets of their friends and family.

[Berwickhibby]

What about what really happened. Thatcher closed down industries all over the UK and did nothing for those thrown on the scrapheap or for the areas to recover. While at the same time the torys were gerrymandering and lining the pockets of their friends and family.

I don't disagree with a single word you say.... Thatcher and the Tories destroyed real industry

[Moulin Yarns]

New UN Human Development index is out. How many of that top ten are small independent countries close to us?

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/latest-human-development-index-ranking


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That's a bit unlucky on the UK, being 13th. :wink:

[Keith_M]

How about a bit of true perspective....Thatcher closed most of the coal mines which was Wales biggest industry and Wales have never properly recovered.


Ehm, so Westminster rule excludes Thatcher?

:confused:




Edit: Never mind, I just noticed you already admitted you were talking crap

:wink:

[Berwickhibby]

Ehm, so Westminster rule excludes Thatcher?

:confused:




Edit: Never mind, I just noticed you already admitted you were talking crap

:wink:

Nope...just pointing out that the majority of Welsh GDP was generated by coal... especially in the 60s in which the meme relates

[Moulin Yarns]

Nope...just pointing out that the majority of Welsh GDP was generated by coal... especially in the 60s in which the meme relates

Rhondda no more, Ty Mawr no more.