Scottish Independence

[James310]

That would be called a referendum.

No it would be be called a poll. Nobody would be turning up at polling stations to fill in bits of paper and nobody would be counting them.

How would the SNP have done it when they were suggesting a threshold of 60% before Brexit? They obviously had a method in mind.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am not into conspiracy theories though, if the SG and UK Governments came together and agreed a process I am sure it could be done. Then the referendum is basically the confirmation of what we should in theory already know.

As I say getting 60% under the current SNP is going to be very hard, so I get the reluctance to adopt this. Maybe with a new fresh leadership with a different approach it might be different and with a winning proposal 60% could be achieved.

In May 2013 polling was over 60% against independence, should that have been the end of it? Or should democracy be allowed to develop and evolve?

And what is your current obsession with 60%?

[James310]

In May 2013 polling was over 60% against independence, should that have been the end of it? Or should democracy be allowed to develop and evolve?

And what is your current obsession with 60%?

In May 2013 a referendum was already agreed, it was agreed in October 2012.

60% seems like a fair figure where the side that wins has a decent enough margin to implement their changes. It's just a number, maybe it should be 55% of 65%, it's just a suggestion.

I am just commenting on the article by Kenny Farquharson and interesting he was suggesting similar things that I had previously suggested. He seems to think the SNP might be open to it as well.

[Moulin Yarns]

In May 2013 a referendum was already agreed, it was agreed in October 2012.

60% seems like a fair figure where the side that wins has a decent enough margin to implement their changes. It's just a number, maybe it should be 55% of 65%, it's just a suggestion.

I am just commenting on the article by Kenny Farquharson and interesting he was suggesting similar things that I had previously suggested. He seems to think the SNP might be open to it as well.

OK, so should the yes campaign have thrown in the towels when no was polling 65%?

Maybe we could agree on a percentage at the outset, I'm happy to go for 50%+1

[The Modfather]

In May 2013 polling was over 60% against independence, should that have been the end of it? Or should democracy be allowed to develop and evolve?

And what is your current obsession with 60%?

Talk of polling percentages seems like the latest way to talk down independence without having to actually engage in any other related subjects like the UK economy, Brexit, The Tory shambles, the shambles that are labour etc.

It’s gone from arguing nothings changed - no mandate - once in a generation - hitting some sort of target in an opinion poll.

Wish the campaigning would formally begin. Get asking the yes side the difficult questions about currency, steps to EU membership, vision of the kind of country we want to be etc. Ask the no side about Brexit, the economy, England and the Tory’s moving ever further right etc

[James310]

OK, so should the yes campaign have thrown in the towels when no was polling 65%?

Maybe we could agree on a percentage at the outset, I'm happy to go for 50%+1

No, why would they do that.

You can go with whatever you want.

[Ozyhibby]

Talk of polling percentages seems like the latest way to talk down independence without having to actually engage in any other related subjects like the UK economy, Brexit, The Tory shambles, the shambles that are labour etc.

It’s gone from arguing nothings changed - no mandate - once in a generation - hitting some sort of target in an opinion poll.

Wish the campaigning would formally begin. Get asking the yes side the difficult questions about currency, steps to EU membership, vision of the kind of country we want to be etc. Ask the no side about Brexit, the economy, England and the Tory’s moving ever further right etc

We’re in the hands of the Supreme Court now. Everything else is just noise until they tell us where we stand.


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[ronaldo7]

How would the SNP have done it? I would suggest the same way they had in mind.

Maybe a poll every 6 months that the Scottish Government and UK Government agree the terms on, something like that. I don't know but I am sure both parties could come together and agree something if the will was there.

Is that the Michael Gove poll that has Yes at 70%? I think even you don't believe that.

I get that nationalists don't like the idea as they know getting 60% of people to support Independence under the SNP in its current make up is really quite difficult. But if it's such a great proposal then 60% should be a realistic target.

I've no idea what the polls that Michael Gove has, as we've not been able to see them.

Loving your deflection tactics, it's like Cunningham in 1979 Nothing changes.

The unionists cheat their way through, to try and deprive the Scottish people of theirs by right.

Go James, your place in the hall of fame is settled, it's just a pity that it won't be recognised in an independent Scotland. 😂

[James310]

I've no idea what the polls that Michael Gove has, as we've not been able to see them.

Loving your deflection tactics, it's like Cunningham in 1979 Nothing changes.

The unionists cheat their way through, to try and deprive the Scottish people of theirs by right.

Go James, your place in the hall of fame is settled, it's just a pity that it won't be recognised in an independent Scotland. 😂

Deprive Scottish people of what? If that was true no referendum would ever have been agreed at all so it's clearly nonsense. It's almost like we never had our biggest ever democratic exercise only 8 years ago. The Scottish people could of claimed Independence in 2014, but they said no thanks.

I have no idea what your last bit is all about but whatever makes you happy.

[ronaldo7]

Deprive Scottish people of what? If that was true no referendum would ever have been agreed at all so it's clearly nonsense. It's almost like we never had our biggest ever democratic exercise only 8 years ago. The Scottish people could of claimed Independence in 2014, but they said no thanks.

I have no idea what your last bit is all about but whatever makes you happy.

I just want the result of the Michael Gove poll.

Can you help?

If not I'll butt out, and let you discuss what percentage we Scots need to get another referendum. 😏

[James310]

I just want the result of the Michael Gove poll.

Can you help?

If not I'll butt out, and let you discuss what percentage we Scots need to get another referendum. 😏

I have no idea what it was about but it's 4 years old now so whatever it says will be largely irrelevant.

We know Governments don't like to disclose information though, they all do it. The SNP broke the Freedom of Information laws over 600 times last year and even tried to actually suspend FOI requests completely when Covid started. Gove is maybe just learning some lessons!

[1875godsgift]

I have no idea what it was about but it's 4 years old now so whatever it says will be largely irrelevant.

We know Governments don't like to disclose information though, they all do it. The SNP broke the Freedom of Information laws over 600 times last year and even tried to actually suspend FOI requests completely when Covid started. Gove is maybe just learning some lessons!

If Gove did it 4 years ago then surely then surely it's the other way round and the SNP are learning from the lying party?

[lapsedhibee]

Talk of polling percentages seems like the latest way to talk down independence without having to actually engage in any other related subjects like the UK economy, Brexit, The Tory shambles, the shambles that are labour etc.

It’s gone from arguing nothings changed - no mandate - once in a generation - hitting some sort of target in an opinion poll.

Wish the campaigning would formally begin. Get asking the yes side the difficult questions about currency, steps to EU membership, vision of the kind of country we want to be etc. Ask the no side about Brexit, the economy, England and the Tory’s moving ever further right etc

:agree:

[ronaldo7]

How do you gauge the public opinion is 60% either way?

If (when) opinion polls creep up towards 60% of people being unhappy with the Brexit that was delivered. Should we have another referendum at that point? Or can we not look at opinion polls until another generation has passed? There’s some good points about referendums that aren’t decisive and neverendums etc, which I agree with a lot of. However it does feel like the goalposts are ever changing.

The Herald ran a story yesterday from a reader saying 50+1 isn't really good enough to go independent. That reader was a prominent Tory who spends most of her time trying to deny democracy. It seems that head office have put out a memo.

[degenerated]

The Herald ran a story yesterday from a reader saying 50+1 isn't really good enough to go independent. That reader was a prominent Tory who spends most of her time trying to deny democracy. It seems that head office have put out a memo.They know they can't deny the democratic right of the Scottish people so now they are trying to reframe the requirement in any vote. This is a move towards a demand that 60% of the total electorate is the minimum to achieve independence.

As for Kenny Farquharson, he is just doing his masters bidding. Just as he was when this sort of rubbish was getting pushed on his editorial watch at the scotsman26039

[Ozyhibby]

They know they can't deny the democratic right of the Scottish people so now they are trying to reframe the requirement in any vote. This is a move towards a demand that 60% of the total electorate is the minimum to achieve independence.

As for Kenny Farquharson, he is just doing his masters bidding. Just as he was when this sort of rubbish was getting pushed on his editorial watch at the scotsman26039

A departure at least from his usual output of dreaming up unworkable devo max fantasies that absolutely zero politicians are proposing. This is just another of his fantasies but with a different spin.


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[degenerated]

A departure at least from his usual output of dreaming up unworkable devo max fantasies that absolutely zero politicians are proposing. This is just another of his fantasies but with a different spin.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkKenny's world where everything and anything makes the case for federalism :hilarious

[JeMeSouviens]

Worry not, Unionists, Penny is coming to save you. :faf:

https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1549702660709912576

On the other hand, Rishi isn't, mainly because he doesn't seem to have a clue where you lot are. :wink:

https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1549700625327431686

[Ozyhibby]

Worry not, Unionists, Penny is coming to save you. :faf:

https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1549702660709912576

On the other hand, Rishi isn't, mainly because he doesn't seem to have a clue where you lot are. :wink:

https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1549700625327431686

Always wondered why Darlington weren’t in the SPFL.[emoji23]


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[The Modfather]

Worry not, Unionists, Penny is coming to save you. :faf:

https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1549702660709912576

On the other hand, Rishi isn't, mainly because he doesn't seem to have a clue where you lot are. :wink:

https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1549700625327431686

If Chas & Dave were to pen a catchy theme tune for the UK that might have me re-considering my vote 😀

[grunt]

If Chas & Dave were to pen a catchy theme tune for the UK that might have me re-considering my vote 😀
Tricky. Chas died in 2018.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220720/b4c44f50a263f909ef5fffd15d45441f.png


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[The Modfather]

Tricky. Chas died in 2018.

Aww man! Still partial to a bit of Snooker Loopy or Margate (makes me think of Only Fools & Horses and the Jolly Boys Outing episode)

[WeeRussell]

Aww man! Still partial to a bit of Snooker Loopy or Margate (makes me think of Only Fools & Horses and the Jolly Boys Outing episode)

Funny as 2,4,6,8 motorway does the same for me 😁

[CropleyWasGod]

Worry not, Unionists, Penny is coming to save you. :faf:

https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1549702660709912576

On the other hand, Rishi isn't, mainly because he doesn't seem to have a clue where you lot are. :wink:

https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1549700625327431686

Darlington is about 20 miles from his own constituency :rolleyes:

[xyz23jc]

Tricky. Chas died in 2018.

Hopefully the UK is next in 2023 :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Darlington is about 20 miles from his own constituency :rolleyes:

It's grim up north.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220720/c2520c81aca358a875f8cdb4b7689490.jpg
Farquharson admits his true motivation.


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[James310]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220720/c2520c81aca358a875f8cdb4b7689490.jpg
Farquharson admits his true motivation.


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Wasn't it Nicola Sturgeon that suggested a compromise? What would a compromise look like then if not this?

[Ozyhibby]

Wasn't it Nicola Sturgeon that suggested a compromise? What would a compromise look like then if not this?

Even he is not suggesting it’s a compromise. It’s a way of shelving the question.


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[ronaldo7]

Unionist mathematics House of Lords style. That 60% has certainly done the rounds. :greengrin

https://twitter.com/natalieben/status/1549788406464536576

[heretoday]

I'm going to go and live in France.

[Glory Lurker]

Unionist mathematics House of Lords style. That 60% has certainly done the rounds. :greengrin

https://twitter.com/natalieben/status/1549788406464536576

Cannae beat an unelected Lord telling us what a democratic mandate is.

[degenerated]

Unionist mathematics House of Lords style. That 60% has certainly done the rounds. :greengrin

https://twitter.com/natalieben/status/1549788406464536576Expect this to be the line in all the media now. Kenny Farquharson was just acting under orders when he put it out there in the times the other day.

As for Malcolm Offord, the irony of a guy who bought his position for 150 grand lecturing on democratic mandates is off the scale. It was like numberwang the way he was just making up random numbers :hilarious

[ronaldo7]

Expect this to be the line in all the media now. Kenny Farquharson was just acting under orders when he put it out there in the times the other day.

As for Malcolm Offord, the irony of a guy who bought his position for 150 grand lecturing on democratic mandates is off the scale. It was like numberwang the way he was just making up random numbers :hilarious

Offord was roundly beaten in the 2021 Scottish election, only to be placed in the lords for his donations to the tory party. He probably had to increase his bung by 60% to get enobled though. That's how democracy seems to work these days. 💸💰💵

[Keith_M]

Darlington is about 20 miles from his own constituency :rolleyes:


TBF, it's kind of on the way to Scotland....

[Hibrandenburg]

TBF, it's kind of on the way to Scotland....

And it is just north of Scotch Corner.

[Keith_M]

And it is just north of Scotch Corner.


There you go, he wasn't that far off after all.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

And it is just north of Scotch Corner.

Good place for a visit for a bevvy! 🍺 Darlington, not Scotch Corner.

[Hibrandenburg]

Good place for a visit for a bevvy! 🍺 Darlington, not Scotch Corner.

Did my basic training, trade training, class 1 and Sergeants course nearby. Had many a good night on the town there.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-benefits-system-branded-expensive-27542488.amp

Taking children out of poverty not worth the money according to unionists.[emoji849]

https://twitter.com/kaukabstewart/status/1550417053835821056?s=21&t=IClomZJ3Sym5nbWib6u0PQ

A response from the SG.


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[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Did my basic training, trade training, class 1 and Sergeants course nearby. Had many a good night on the town there.

Catterick?

The big barn of a place outside the station in Darlington has closed down, name escapes me, cheap and cheerful start/end to a day out when visiting by train.

[Keith_M]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-benefits-system-branded-expensive-27542488.amp

Taking children out of poverty not worth the money according to unionists.[emoji849]

https://twitter.com/kaukabstewart/status/1550417053835821056?s=21&t=IClomZJ3Sym5nbWib6u0PQ

A response from the SG.


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According to the article, the cost is currently 10% higher than they estimated.

That's disappointing, but it seems to be pretty much the norm now for any Government funded IT projects to go way over the original estimate.

Being in IT myself, I'm honestly not surprised, as the people in charge are often complete morons.

[James310]

I am old enough to remember when the SNP said they could set up a new country and its infrastructure for £200M and in 18 months. Looking back now that was totally ridiculous.

This is one, albeit complex, IT system in one government department and it's taking years and no end date is known and it's costing a quarter of a billion pounds and rising.

I bet the next papers on Indy whenever they are due will gloss over or ignore any set up costs and timescales etc.

[Berwickhibby]

Catterick?

The big barn of a place outside the station in Darlington has closed down, name escapes me, cheap and cheerful start/end to a day out when visiting by train.

Brown Jug or Brown bear…. Something like that

[Moulin Yarns]

Has anyone heard of the Montevideo Convention?

Article 1 outlines the 4 criteria for a State to become independent. I wonder if anyone would argue that Scotland already meets the criteria?

[ronaldo7]

Has anyone heard of the Montevideo Convention?

Article 1 outlines the 4 criteria for a State to become independent. I wonder if anyone would argue that Scotland already meets the criteria?

We tick all 4 boxes, but it doesn't mention 60% polling, so we're goosed

[James310]

We tick all 4 boxes, but it doesn't mention 60% polling, so we're goosed

The 60% thing really bothers you doesn't it. 🤣

Never heard of the Montevideo Convention but file it along with Claim of Rights etc.

Its a novel idea to get the majority of people to support something I know, but it's probably the best option.

[James310]

Has anyone heard of the Montevideo Convention?

Article 1 outlines the 4 criteria for a State to become independent. I wonder if anyone would argue that Scotland already meets the criteria?

You sure you don't belong in Alba? They are really into the Claim of Rights and all that historical stuff.

https://www.albaparty.org/salmond_claim_of_right


It's not something I have ever seen the SNP use at all.

It does outlaw all catholics holding any kind of public office, ban mass and "papal" books as well. It sounds really progressive. Oh it also ends with a pledge to King Billy!

[ronaldo7]

The 60% thing really bothers you doesn't it. 🤣

Never heard of the Montevideo Convention but file it along with Claim of Rights etc.

Its a novel idea to get the majority of people to support something I know, but it's probably the best option.

It really doesn't. It's your deflection I find funny. 👍 I just can't for the life of me wonder why people who claim to be democrats need to introduce a spurious number to an agreed principle to try and win an argument.

Fyi the majority of people is just one more than the other side. Glad you now accept it. 😉

[CropleyWasGod]

Has anyone heard of the Montevideo Convention?

Article 1 outlines the 4 criteria for a State to become independent. I wonder if anyone would argue that Scotland already meets the criteria?

It's only ever been ratified by some North and South American countries.

[Ozyhibby]

The 60% thing really bothers you doesn't it. [emoji1787]

Never heard of the Montevideo Convention but file it along with Claim of Rights etc.

Its a novel idea to get the majority of people to support something I know, but it's probably the best option.

Majority you say?[emoji106]


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[James310]

It really doesn't. It's your deflection I find funny. 👍 I just can't for the life of me wonder why people who claim to be democrats need to introduce a spurious number to an agreed principle to try and win an argument.

Fyi the majority of people is just one more than the other side. Glad you now accept it. 😉

Fair enough, it's just you mention it in nearly every post.

Majority is one more than the other side and I have never said it isn't, so I have always accepted that.

The consequences of winning with say 50.1% though are going to be tough, as an expert economist to the Scottish Government says it will be very economically damaging and you won't take the people with you, it will lead to massive capital flight.

But experts eh, they said the same warnings about Brexit and the Brexiteers just ignored them. What do they know. We have had enough of the experts.

[ronaldo7]

Majority you say?[emoji106]


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A wee slip up fi wee jimbo. 🙈

[ronaldo7]

Fair enough, it's just you mention it in nearly every post.

Majority is one more than the other side and I have never said it isn't, so I have always accepted that.

The consequences of winning with say 50.1% though are going to be tough, as an expert economist to the Scottish Government says it will be very economically damaging and you won't take the people with you, it will lead to massive capital flight.

But experts eh, they said the same warnings about Brexit and the Brexiteers just ignored them. What do they know. We have had enough of the experts.

Nearly every post. Really? Count them, I dare you.

[James310]

Majority you say?[emoji106]


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Yes, try and get the majority of people to support Independence and then I have no doubt it will happen. At the moment the majority support remaining in the UK and ratified that in big numbers in 2014.

[PeeJay]

It really doesn't. It's your deflection I find funny. 👍 I just can't for the life of me wonder why people who claim to be democrats need to introduce a spurious number to an agreed principle to try and win an argument.

Fyi the majority of people is just one more than the other side. Glad you now accept it. 😉

It's not a bypass you are voting on! Don't you think a reasonable amount of support for "independence" is something vital if "independence" is to be successful. Do you think 50+1% is enough to ensure support will be wide-spread across the country?

I no longer live in Scotland, but it seems to me there is a marked difference between 60+% in favour of independence, where there is an obvious and absolutely clear support for it, and a "heads or tails" situation ... where - on any given day - the outcome may have been different - that's a shoogly peg to build a "nation" on.

With 50+1% - if I was still in Scotland - you would still not have my support and I'm sure the 49% that "lost" may well take a lot longer to be convinced that independence is a good thing - and that has to be a worrying factor at the end of the day? One has to wonder why the nationalist-populist cause cannot get the vast majority of Scottish people behind it, after all, no-one is stopping you, absolutely no-one ...

Has Brexit not shown you that a divided nation is anything but a nation?

[lapsedhibee]

It's not a bypass you are voting on! Don't you think a reasonable amount of support for "independence" is something vital if "independence" is to be successful. Do you think 50+1% is enough to ensure support will be wide-spread across the country?

I no longer live in Scotland, but it seems to me there is a marked difference between 60+% in favour of independence, where there is an obvious and absolutely clear support for it, and a "heads or tails" situation ... where - on any given day - the outcome may have been different - that's a shoogly peg to build a "nation" on.

With 50+1% - if I was still in Scotland - you would still not have my support and I'm sure the 49% that "lost" may well take a lot longer to be convinced that independence is a good thing - and that has to be a worrying factor at the end of the day? One has to wonder why the nationalist-populist cause cannot get the vast majority of Scottish people behind it, after all, no-one is stopping you, absolutely no-one ...

Has Brexit not shown you that a divided nation is anything but a nation?

60-40 is also a divided nation, just not down the exact middle.

And of course the union was allowed to remain/continue with only 55% support.

[ronaldo7]

It's not a bypass you are voting on! Don't you think a reasonable amount of support for "independence" is something vital if "independence" is to be successful. Do you think 50+1% is enough to ensure support will be wide-spread across the country?

I no longer live in Scotland, but it seems to me there is a marked difference between 60+% in favour of independence, where there is an obvious and absolutely clear support for it, and a "heads or tails" situation ... where - on any given day - the outcome may have been different - that's a shoogly peg to build a "nation" on.

With 50+1% - if I was still in Scotland - you would still not have my support and I'm sure the 49% that "lost" may well take a lot longer to be convinced that independence is a good thing - and that has to be a worrying factor at the end of the day? One has to wonder why the nationalist-populist cause cannot get the vast majority of Scottish people behind it, after all, no-one is stopping you, absolutely no-one ...

Has Brexit not shown you that a divided nation is anything but a nation?

I'd take 70/30 over 60/40 or 51/49

We won't know until we have the referendum though. Others on here have said polls somehow need to show a 60% preference before we can even hold it.

I get your point on the Brexit vote, but all major parties in England are now onboard with it, with the lib dems even watering down their re join message.

Let's have the debate, campaign, and then the vote.

Why are we waiting?

[Moulin Yarns]

It's only ever been ratified by some North and South American countries.

The EU also cites it in the agreements on the break up of the former Yugoslavia in 1991 and by the UN to ensure Kosovo is a recognized independent state in 2008

[James310]

The EU also cites it in the agreements on the break up of the former Yugoslavia in 1991 and by the UN to ensure Kosovo is a recognized independent state in 2008

Do you honestly think that the multiple lawyers engaged to look at independence, over many years, have missed some simple route to Independence that you and others have read about on Twitter?

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes, try and get the majority of people to support Independence and then I have no doubt it will happen. At the moment the majority support remaining in the UK and ratified that in big numbers in 2014.

Most recent poll, Sunday Times/Panelbase 1 July has YES with a 1 point lead :thumbsup:

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-government-plans-for-indyref2-to-lead-to-independence-not-legally-relevant-on-referendum-question-argues-lord-advocate-3779063


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[James310]

Most recent poll, Sunday Times/Panelbase 1 July has YES with a 1 point lead :thumbsup:

Oh dear.

[Moulin Yarns]

Do you honestly think that the multiple lawyers engaged to look at independence, over many years, have missed some simple route to Independence that you and others have read about on Twitter?

Didn't read about it on twitter, just doing some research and found several academic papers mentioned it so I then went and read it. You should try it sometime. :wink:

[James310]

Didn't read about it on twitter, just doing some research and found several academic papers mentioned it so I then went and read it. You should try it sometime. :wink:

Not sure if that worse! You think you will find some path to Independence that everyone else has missed?

[JeMeSouviens]

It's not a bypass you are voting on! Don't you think a reasonable amount of support for "independence" is something vital if "independence" is to be successful. Do you think 50+1% is enough to ensure support will be wide-spread across the country?

I no longer live in Scotland, but it seems to me there is a marked difference between 60+% in favour of independence, where there is an obvious and absolutely clear support for it, and a "heads or tails" situation ... where - on any given day - the outcome may have been different - that's a shoogly peg to build a "nation" on.

With 50+1% - if I was still in Scotland - you would still not have my support and I'm sure the 49% that "lost" may well take a lot longer to be convinced that independence is a good thing - and that has to be a worrying factor at the end of the day? One has to wonder why the nationalist-populist cause cannot get the vast majority of Scottish people behind it, after all, no-one is stopping you, absolutely no-one ...

Has Brexit not shown you that a divided nation is anything but a nation?

It is undoubtedly a worrying factor. However, can a "union" state survive successfully if it doesn't have the majority and possibly doesn't even have a plurality of support of the people in one of its constituent parts?

One has to wonder why the post-imperialist-nationalist-populist cause cannot get the vast majority of Scottish people behind it, after all, not only is no-one stopping you, you have all the built in advantages of a state broadcaster, compliant media, moneyed interest etc etc ...

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Brown Jug or Brown bear…. Something like that

Hogans before it shut down.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure if that worse! You think you will find some path to Independence that everyone else has missed?

You mean like your attempts to find some way to block independence by finding something about 60%? Maybe you want the same kind of blocking attempt that a LABOUR MP (George Cunningham) introduced with a minimum percentage of the total electorate, rather than votes cast, to win.


As I explained earlier I was researching something else and came across it and thought it was an interesting commission which helped forge independent nation states from former colonies, and has been used both by the EU and UN as the basis for determining the status of countries.

[Ozyhibby]

You mean like your attempts to find some way to block independence by finding something about 60%? Maybe you want the same kind of blocking attempt that a LABOUR MP (George Cunningham) introduced with a minimum percentage of the total electorate, rather than votes cast, to win.


As I explained earlier I was researching something else and came across it and thought it was an interesting commission which helped forge independent nation states from former colonies, and has been used both by the EU and UN as the basis for determining the status of countries.

Or anyone whose name begins with Mc who lives anywhere in the world has a vote and if they choose not to use it then it counts as a NO.


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[James310]

You mean like your attempts to find some way to block independence by finding something about 60%? Maybe you want the same kind of blocking attempt that a LABOUR MP (George Cunningham) introduced with a minimum percentage of the total electorate, rather than votes cast, to win.


As I explained earlier I was researching something else and came across it and thought it was an interesting commission which helped forge independent nation states from former colonies, and has been used both by the EU and UN as the basis for determining the status of countries.

No, I don't agree with George Cunningham.

Let us know if you find anything in your research. Would certainly be a scoop if you did. (Scotland is not a colony)

[Keith_M]

Do you honestly think that the multiple lawyers engaged to look at independence, over many years, have missed some simple route to Independence that you and others have read about on Twitter?


You take offence when other people sarcastically post a put down aimed at you(which is fair enough), but do you actually realise how often you do it yourself?

I have great respect for the posters that respectfully, and logically put arguments forward against independence but there's a big difference between that and repetitively posting the same stuff day after day and constantly belittling people.

[James310]

You take offence when other people sarcastically post a put down aimed at you(which is fair enough), but do you actually realise how often you do it yourself?

I have great respect for the posters that respectfully, and logically put arguments forward against independence but there's a big difference between that and repetitively posting the same stuff day after day and constantly belittling people.

It was a serious question, what are people expecting to uncover that many lawyers over many years have seemingly missed. If Claim of Rights or the Montevideo Convention isn't an attempt to do that what is it?

[Moulin Yarns]

No, I don't agree with George Cunningham.

Let us know if you find anything in your research. Would certainly be a scoop if you did. (Scotland is not a colony)

You need to read the posts!!

This is the 3rd time I've said that I was doing research on something different and came across the Montevideo Convention

[Ozyhibby]

It was a serious question, what are people expecting to uncover that many lawyers over many years have seemingly missed. If Claim of Rights or the Montevideo Convention isn't an attempt to do that what is it?

In every case, 50% of the lawyers get it wrong. Law is complicated, especially when one law rubs up against the other.
In the Supreme Court case, the odds heavily favour the UK govt winning but politically that has its pitfalls for them. The union is no longer voluntary once a court rules there is no way out. That helps the Indy case in the long run.
Let’s wait and see what they decide but there is nothing to fear for the YES side.


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[James310]

In every case, 50% of the lawyers get it wrong. Law is complicated, especially when one law rubs up against the other.
In the Supreme Court case, the odds heavily favour the UK govt winning but politically that has its pitfalls for them. The union is no longer voluntary once a court rules there is no way out. That helps the Indy case in the long run.
Let’s wait and see what they decide but there is nothing to fear for the YES side.


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The court won't rule that there is "no way out" that's just a narrative you want to go with because it stokes the grievance. If there was no way out why did we have a referendum in 2014 which offered us exactly that? The way out is clearly defined in law, that's what the court will tell us very likely, not there is no way out.

The way out is simple, persuade a majority of people that Independence is the path to follow and it will happen. I don't need to explain again how I see that happening.

[Moulin Yarns]

The court won't rule that there is "no way out" that's just a narrative you want to go with because it stokes the grievance. If there was no way out why did we have a referendum in 2014 which offered us exactly that? The way out is clearly defined in law, that's what the court will tell us very likely, not there is no way out.

The way out is simple, persuade a majority of people that Independence is the path to follow and it will happen. I don't need to explain again how I see that happening.

If it was that simple why is the supreme Court sitting over 2 days to hear the case for and against the Scottish people deciding what is best for the country?

[StevieC]

The court won't rule that there is "no way out" that's just a narrative you want to go with because it stokes the grievance. If there was no way out why did we have a referendum in 2014 which offered us exactly that? The way out is clearly defined in law, that's what the court will tell us very likely, not there is no way out.

Quite clearly he is alluding to the fact that we need permission from someone else, hence “no way out” unless someone gives the permission that we have no control over.

To use 2014 as a “clear definition” of a way out, without clearly stating the conditions of that way out is a pretty poor response.

[James310]

If it was that simple why is the supreme Court sitting over 2 days to hear the case for and against the Scottish people deciding what is best for the country?

It's not deciding that at all, it will rule on a point of law as that's what courts do. But it's because Nicola Sturgeon asked the Lord Advocate to do so. Her submission tells us she is not confident at all, hence why she had referred it and refused to sign off a Bill in the Scottish Parliament, it also confirms that the Scottish Government intend to run an advisory referendum that has zero legal status i.e. a pretendyref.

[James310]

Quite clearly he is alluding to the fact that we need permission from someone else, hence “no way out” unless someone gives the permission that we have no control over.

To use 2014 as a “clear definition” of a way out, without clearly stating the conditions of that way out is a pretty poor response.

Not everyone sees the UK Government as "someone else" though. I understand why some do though. The law is the law, if we didn't want to remain in the UK and the laws of the UK we would have voted to leave it in 2014.

[Andy Bee]

The court won't rule that there is "no way out" that's just a narrative you want to go with because it stokes the grievance. If there was no way out why did we have a referendum in 2014 which offered us exactly that? The way out is clearly defined in law, that's what the court will tell us very likely, not there is no way out.

The way out is simple, persuade a majority of people that Independence is the path to follow and it will happen. I don't need to explain again how I see that happening.

Ahh, so you're saying we could, for example, use a Scottish Government election to elect parties which run on a manifesto of supporting independence thus giving them a mandate if they get a majority, then be entitled to a referendum between the whole electorate to ask the question, party differences aside, to choose in which way their country should go forward? :hmmm: It'll never catch on.

[The Modfather]

Not everyone sees the UK Government as "someone else" though. I understand why some do though. The law is the law, if we didn't want to remain in the UK and the laws of the UK we would have voted to leave it in 2014.

We didn’t vote to stay in the union either though it would seem as the No side fell short of the 60% required.

[James310]

Ahh, so you're saying we could, for example, use a Scottish Government election to elect parties which run on a manifesto of supporting independence thus giving them a mandate if they get a majority, then be entitled to a referendum between the whole electorate to ask the question, party differences aside, to choose in which way their country should go forward? :hmmm: It'll never catch on.

If they have a mandate why don't they use it?

[Ozyhibby]

By the end of this process, I think there will be a clear pathway for a 2nd indyref. I think that the UK govt are going to have to set out a road map. I don’t think ‘now is not the time’ will hold much longer.


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[James310]

By the end of this process, I think there will be a clear pathway for a 2nd indyref. I think that the UK govt are going to have to set out a road map. I don’t think ‘now is not the time’ will hold much longer.


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What do you think that pathway will be?

[Zambernardi1875]

What do you think that pathway will be?

What is you’re vision of the uk in 10years?

[Ozyhibby]

What do you think that pathway will be?

I expect it will be something I won’t like and will be handy for recruiting more people over to the yes side.


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[James310]

What is you’re vision of the uk in 10years?

Lol, that's a fairly open question. It's not something I think about that much about. I guess a place where people are as happy as they can be and enjoying life. Sorry if you think I am going to write an essay about how wonderful the UK is and what I see happening in detail over the next 10 years as I would not know where to start. Probably a question for a politician that.

[Ozyhibby]

What is you’re vision of the uk in 10years?

Managed decline.[emoji106]


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[James310]

I expect it will be something I won’t like and will be handy for recruiting more people over to the yes side.


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So you see no compromise at all?

I am giving a pathway and fair enough nobody really likes it on here which is understandable, but I don't see anyone from the nationalist side coming up with any kind of plan that acknowledges we could be in this stand off for years to come and proposing something different. I'm wondering what Nicola Sturgeon meant when she said she was open to compromise, on what exactly?

I have a sneaking suspicion some quite like the constant battle with the Tory's and actually prefer the fight more than they would prefer the responsibility of actually delivering Independence. Not saying there is a lot of them but they certainly exist.

[Zambernardi1875]

Lol, that's a fairly open question. It's not something I think about that much about. I guess a place where people are as happy as they can be and enjoying life. Sorry if you think I am going to write an essay about how wonderful the UK is and what I see happening in detail over the next 10 years as I would not know where to start. Probably a question for a politician that.

I’m surprised with such a wishy washy answer when You spend enough time on here telling everyone how bad Scotland will be independent

[Ozyhibby]

So you see no compromise at all?

I am giving a pathway and fair enough nobody really likes it on here which is understandable, but I don't see anyone from the nationalist side coming up with any kind of plan that acknowledges we could be in this stand off for years to come and proposing something different. I'm wondering what Nicola Sturgeon meant when she said she was open to compromise, on what exactly?

I have a sneaking suspicion some quite like the constant battle with the Tory's and actually prefer the fight more than they would prefer the responsibility of actually delivering Independence. Not saying there is a lot of them but they certainly exist.

No offence James, but your not in a position to offer anything. There is zero unionist offer on the table. It’s just the odd politician picking numbers out their back side every now and again. Every 25 years, every 40 years, 60% in polls, 60% of all potential voters and on and on we go.
The only definite reply we have is No.
The SNP believe it should be in the power of the Scottish Parliament and the only reply we get is No.


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[James310]

No offence James, but your not in a position to offer anything. There is zero unionist offer on the table. It’s just the odd politician picking numbers out their back side every now and again. Every 25 years, every 40 years, 60% in polls, 60% of all potential voters and on and on we go.
The only definite reply we have is No.
The SNP believe it should be in the power of the Scottish Parliament and the only reply we get is No.


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Fair enough, but if polls remain where they are and the election results remain where they are we will be stuck here for a while yet.

[StevieC]

Not everyone sees the UK Government as "someone else" though. I understand why some do though. The law is the law, if we didn't want to remain in the UK and the laws of the UK we would have voted to leave it in 2014.

Yes, because keeping the laws of the UK was the main reason that people voted the way they did.
Again, a poor response. Lots of things remained the same after the 2014 vote, but to say that they were the reason why people voted is quite ridiculous. These, and you are clearly just using the ones that suit your narrative, were a consequence of 2014 and quite obviously not a deciding factor.

[wee_cooper]

No offence James, but your not in a position to offer anything. There is zero unionist offer on the table. It’s just the odd politician picking numbers out their back side every now and again. Every 25 years, every 40 years, 60% in polls, 60% of all potential voters and on and on we go.
The only definite reply we have is No.
The SNP believe it should be in the power of the Scottish Parliament and the only reply we get is No.


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100% agree with this. People are putting forward arbitrary figures for another indyref and it's really obvious that it's vote fixing.

Just imagine if the EU back in 2016 said "sorry, you can't have a referendum about leaving the EU".

The Govt of that day(UK GE 2015) got 36.8% of the vote across the whole of the UK and went through with a referendum. I did not like that but I agreed that that was the democratic process and it happened.

The Unionist side is showing no respect for democracy and it goes against their narrative of being the good guys in the world.

James, you may not want Independence but goodness me man, you must respect democracy.

[degenerated]

So you see no compromise at all?

I am giving a pathway and fair enough nobody really likes it on here which is understandable, but I don't see anyone from the nationalist side coming up with any kind of plan that acknowledges we could be in this stand off for years to come and proposing something different. I'm wondering what Nicola Sturgeon meant when she said she was open to compromise, on what exactly?

I have a sneaking suspicion some quite like the constant battle with the Tory's and actually prefer the fight more than they would prefer the responsibility of actually delivering Independence. Not saying there is a lot of them but they certainly exist.We aren't the nationalists James, that's you. All we want is self determination.

[James310]

We aren't the nationalists James, that's you. All we want is self determination.

If that's true why did Nicola Sturgeon address the SNP conference with "welcome fellow nationalists" and march under a Young Scottish Nationalists banner.

[wee_cooper]

If that's true why did Nicola Sturgeon address the SNP conference with "welcome fellow nationalists" and march under a Young Scottish Nationalists banner.

Is there a video or link to this?

[James310]

100% agree with this. People are putting forward arbitrary figures for another indyref and it's really obvious that it's vote fixing.

Just imagine if the EU back in 2016 said "sorry, you can't have a referendum about leaving the EU".

The Govt of that day(UK GE 2015) got 36.8% of the vote across the whole of the UK and went through with a referendum. I did not like that but I agreed that that was the democratic process and it happened.

The Unionist side is showing no respect for democracy and it goes against their narrative of being the good guys in the world.

James, you may not want Independence but goodness me man, you must respect democracy.

Isn't defending my democratic vote in 2014 respecting democracy? You disagree, I have a different view.

This is a decent article about democracy.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/4568005/scottish-independence-referendum-authoritarians-john-ferry-opinion/?utm_source=twitter

[James310]

Is there a video or link to this?

Apologies she says "fellow nationalists" while addressing the SNP conference.

https://youtu.be/w470KAKjpn4

[ronaldo7]

If that's true why did Nicola Sturgeon address the SNP conference with "welcome fellow nationalists" and march under a Young Scottish Nationalists banner.

Surely even you know that the independence movement is not the SNP.

In other news Alistair darling marched under a socialist workers party banner. You get my drift. 👍

[wee_cooper]

If that's true why did Nicola Sturgeon address the SNP conference with "welcome fellow nationalists" and march under a Young Scottish Nationalists banner.

If there is not a link then I will give my thoughts...


why did Nicola Sturgeon address the SNP conference with "welcome fellow nationalists"

She was at an SNP conference. There tends to be people wanting independence there.

march under a Young Scottish Nationalists banner.

March? Really? Not a crime as far as I know.

[James310]

Surely even you know that the independence movement is not the SNP.

It pretty much is, and that's a problem for the Independence movement.

[wee_cooper]

Isn't defending my democratic vote in 2014 respecting democracy? You disagree, I have a different view.

This is a decent article about democracy.

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/4568005/scottish-independence-referendum-authoritarians-john-ferry-opinion/?utm_source=twitter

Are we not allowed to change our mind or does your version of democracy not allow that?

[ronaldo7]

It pretty much is, and that's a problem for the Independence movement.

Maybe 40%, leaving another 60%

I have no idea of those figures are correct, just plucked them out of thin air.

[wee_cooper]

Apologies she says "fellow nationalists" while addressing the SNP conference.

https://youtu.be/w470KAKjpn4

Thanks for the apology. You were clearly wrong and I accept the apology

[James310]

Thanks for the apology. You were clearly wrong and I accept the apology

Wrong about what? My original reply was to a poster who said he was not a nationalist. Not to you.

[James310]

Maybe 40%, leaving another 60%

I have no idea of those figures are correct, just plucked them out of thin air.

60% again! See I was right.

[James310]

Are we not allowed to change our mind or does your version of democracy not allow that?

Sure you can change you mind, it would be ridiculous for me to say people can't change their minds. There is no evidence anyone has.

[wee_cooper]

Wrong about what? My original reply was to a poster who said he was not a nationalist. Not to you.

But not all Independence supporters are Scottish nationalists. Like I am sure you are not a British nationalist. Anyway, thanks for the apology

[wee_cooper]

Sure you can change you mind, it would be ridiculous for me to say people can't change their minds. There is no evidence anyone has.

Been a few votes since 2014 that would say you are wrong. Unless you want to go with private polling companies that ask questions that suit your view.

[James310]

But not all Independence supporters are Scottish nationalists. Like I am sure you are not a British nationalist. Anyway, thanks for the apology

No problems, obviously means a lot to you.

[wee_cooper]

No problems, obviously means a lot to you.

The future of my country does as it happens. But you crack on with the Union as it's obviously so important to you

[James310]

Been a few votes since 2014 that would say you are wrong. Unless you want to go with private polling companies that ask questions that suit your view.

What about the private polling companies that showed Yes winning 20+ times in a row, where they wrong as well? Let me guess they were all fine.

[James310]

The future of my country does as it happens. But you crack on with the Union as it's obviously so important to you

No I meant my apology, it obviously meant a lot to you.

[wee_cooper]

No I meant my apology, it obviously meant a lot to you.

Apologise for what?

[James310]

Apologise for what?

You tell me, you kept thanking me for it.

[wee_cooper]

What about the private polling companies that showed Yes winning 20+ times in a row, where they wrong as well? Let me guess they were all fine.

Really? Which Lodge propaganda meeting were you seeing this?

[Ozyhibby]

What about the private polling companies that showed Yes winning 20+ times in a row, where they wrong as well? Let me guess they were all fine.

When did we suggest writing law based on those results?


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[wee_cooper]

You tell me, you kept thanking me for it.

well thanks again.

[wee_cooper]

When did we suggest writing law based on those results?


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Aye...and where were they? I didn't see them?

[James310]

When did we suggest writing law based on those results?


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I don't think anyone did. It did generate lots of its the will of the people and it's definitely happening, but it was not ultimately sustainable.

[James310]

Really? Which Lodge propaganda meeting were you seeing this?

Not sure what you mean? You questioned the legitimacy of polls, I was asking when Yes were leading in polls for about 20 in a row did you question their legitimacy as they were run by the same polling companies.

But it's easier to refer to Orange Lodges isn't it.

[Zambernardi1875]

Not sure what you mean? You questioned the legitimacy of polls, I was asking when Yes were leading in polls for about 20 in a row did you question their legitimacy as they were run by the same polling companies.

But it's easier to refer to Orange Lodges isn't it.

Yes we’re leading for 20 polls in a row but there isn’t an appetite for another referendum?

[James310]

Yes we’re leading for 20 polls in a row but there isn’t an appetite for another referendum?

It wasn't sustainable, if they polls kept showing Yes in the lead and still did then yes there would be. They didn't and there isn't.

[ronaldo7]

60% again! See I was right.

Yup, so you were. Just out of thin air. 👍

[wee_cooper]

Not sure what you mean? You questioned the legitimacy of polls, I was asking when Yes were leading in polls for about 20 in a row did you question their legitimacy as they were run by the same polling companies.

But it's easier to refer to Orange Lodges isn't it.

I am asking for a link to this. Can you provide it?

However, your behaviour on this thread makes me question your belief in democracy and regardless of orange lodges or lemon lodges that makes me wonder if you actually can count. The Scottish people have returned a party(s) supporting another indy ref since 2014. What is it about that that you don't get? Are you scared of losing?

[Zambernardi1875]

It wasn't sustainable, if they polls kept showing Yes in the lead and still did then yes there would be. They didn't and there isn't.

So how long do the polls have to stay yes for until you’ll accept another referendum is in the interests of the Scottish people? How long were the brexit polls in favour of going out for?

[lapsedhibee]

So how long do the polls have to stay yes for until you’ll accept another referendum is in the interests of the Scottish people?

Clearly the answer to that should be 60% of a generation.

[Ozyhibby]

So how long do the polls have to stay yes for until you’ll accept another referendum is in the interests of the Scottish people? How long were the brexit polls in favour of going out for?

A generation.[emoji6][emoji23]


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[James310]

I am asking for a link to this. Can you provide it?

However, your behaviour on this thread makes me question your belief in democracy and regardless of orange lodges or lemon lodges that makes me wonder if you actually can count. The Scottish people have returned a party(s) supporting another indy ref since 2014. What is it about that that you don't get? Are you scared of losing?

Provide what? You have lost me.

[James310]

So how long do the polls have to stay yes for until you’ll accept another referendum is in the interests of the Scottish people? How long were the brexit polls in favour of going out for?

Maybe 18 months? I don't know.

I wasn't following Brexit polls but it proves my point, don't hold a referendum unless it's to just confirm what is already the known will of the people. It should be a confirmatory thing, not a toss of a coin.

[Ozyhibby]

Maybe 18 months? I don't know.

I wasn't following Brexit polls but it proves my point, don't hold a referendum unless it's to just confirm what is already the known will of the people. It should be a confirmatory thing, not a toss of a coin.

In your opinion.


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[Callum_62]

Maybe 18 months? I don't know.

I wasn't following Brexit polls but it proves my point, don't hold a referendum unless it's to just confirm what is already the known will of the people. It should be a confirmatory thing, not a toss of a coin.Why? Switzerland runs referendums all the time on all sorts of issues

I don't believe they have an arbitiry made up percentage of the leader at the time to allow the referendum to take place

Your take is interesting though as staying in the union is currently at 49 percent... But in your world that's means we should just carry on blindly

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[James310]

Why? Switzerland runs referendums all the time on all sorts of issues

I don't believe they have an arbitiry made up percentage of the leader at the time to allow the referendum to take place

Your take is interesting though as staying in the union is currently at 49 percent... But in your world that's means we should just carry on blindly

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We are not Switzerland, if you want referendums all the time then that needs legislation for it.

The poll of poll shows No leading and since the Scottish elections there has been about 27 polls and Yes has been leading in only 4 of those. That's not evidence people have changed their minds.

[Moulin Yarns]

What do you think that pathway will be?

I think that's clear, especially when the supreme Court sees the lack of any solid evidence from your UK government 🤔😉

[Hibrandenburg]

Catterick?

The big barn of a place outside the station in Darlington has closed down, name escapes me, cheap and cheerful start/end to a day out when visiting by train.

Aye, Catterick. Hell hole of a place, ****ed off to Durham, Darlington or Hartlepool at every opportunity.

No idea about the names of any pubs or clubs, that part of my life is just an alcohol induced blur. :greengrin

[James310]

I think that's clear, especially when the supreme Court sees the lack of any solid evidence from your UK government 🤔😉

I am not following? What's the pathway, or is it just more of the same in the hope something might change one day?

They are your UK government as well as mine.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am giving a pathway






That's very kind of you, now will you be so kind as to explain what your pathway is???

[James310]

That's very kind of you, now will you be so kind as to explain what your pathway is???

Not again no. Go back and check. It involves a number some get really excited about.

[Moulin Yarns]

It pretty much is, and that's a problem for the Independence movement.

How many times do you have to be reminded that posters in support of independence cover all parties, apart probably the tories, and I am not an snp member or supporter!!

[wee_cooper]

Maybe 18 months? I don't know.

I wasn't following Brexit polls but it proves my point, don't hold a referendum unless it's to just confirm what is already the known will of the people. It should be a confirmatory thing, not a toss of a coin.

er....Brexit polls never showed a majority for leave in Scotland. Maybe that country doesn't matter to you. Good luck with that policy

[Moulin Yarns]

It wasn't sustainable, if they polls kept showing Yes in the lead and still did then yes there would be. They didn't and there isn't.

I take it you still haven't seen the most recent Times panelbase poll on July 1st with yes ahead 😁

[Moulin Yarns]

So how long do the polls have to stay yes for until you’ll accept another referendum is in the interests of the Scottish people? How long were the brexit polls in favour of going out for?

60% of the time 🤔😉

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe 18 months? I don't know.

I wasn't following Brexit polls but it proves my point, don't hold a referendum unless it's to just confirm what is already the known will of the people. It should be a confirmatory thing, not a toss of a coin.

I'm sure I've asked this before, but how exactly do you know what the will of the people (whoever they may be) is without holding a referendum??

[Moulin Yarns]

We are not Switzerland, if you want referendums all the time then that needs legislation for it.



Ahem!!!

https://www.parliament.scot/bills-and-laws/bills/referendums-scotland-bill


Just as well the Scottish Parliament is ahead of the game for you 😂😂

[Moulin Yarns]

I am not following? What's the pathway, or is it just more of the same in the hope something might change one day?

They are your UK government as well as mine.

You told everyone about your pathway, I'm just telling you what I think mine might be. 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

Not again no. Go back and check. It involves a number some get really excited about.

Don't tell me, your magic 60% and here was me thinking that 3 was the magic number 😁

[James310]

I'm sure I've asked this before, but how exactly do you know what the will of the people (whoever they may be) is without holding a referendum??

You did ask or someone else did, but basically the same way the SNP would have done it, whatever that was. Feel free to trawl back and check.

But here is another Nicola Sturgeon quote, this time from 2015 and I agree with her.

"So let me be clear. To propose another referendum in the next parliament without strong evidence that a significant number of those who voted No have changed their minds would be wrong and we won’t do it.

It would not be respecting the decision that people made."

Has a "significant number", and that's her words not mine, of people who voted No changed their minds? No evidence they have.

[Moulin Yarns]

Time for bed, see you tomorrow. Sleep well everyone, and dreams of 60% 😂😂😂

[James310]

You told everyone about your pathway, I'm just telling you what I think mine might be. 😉

I am not sure if you are trying to be clever or something but your posts are really confusing, your said I never offered a pathway and now you are saying I did and you are telling me yours without doing so.

[Moulin Yarns]

You did ask or someone else did, but basically the same way the SNP would have done it, whatever that was. Feel free to trawl back and check.

But here is another Nicola Sturgeon quote, this time from 2015 and I agree with her.

"So let me be clear. To propose another referendum in the next parliament without strong evidence that a significant number of those who voted No have changed their minds would be wrong and we won’t do it.

It would not be respecting the decision that people made."

Has a "significant number", and that's her words not mine, of people who voted No changed their minds? No evidence they have.

And the last poll, times/panelbase, has yes 49% no 48%, compared with 45% and 55%, looks like a move in the right direction 😁

[James310]

And the last poll, times/panelbase, has yes 49% no 48%, compared with 45% and 55%, looks like a move in the right direction 😁

Oh that poll was obviously biased from the private polling company that asked a question that suited your view. That's how they work you see.

[James310]

Time for bed, see you tomorrow. Sleep well everyone, and dreams of 60% 😂😂😂

Another one that seems really effected by 60%. If the proposal was so great it seems a reasonable number to achieve.

[Callum_62]

We are not Switzerland, if you want referendums all the time then that needs legislation for it.

The poll of poll shows No leading and since the Scottish elections there has been about 27 polls and Yes has been leading in only 4 of those. That's not evidence people have changed their minds.Let's take another tack then

You seem to suggest that 60 percent is the magic number to trigger the will of the people

The will of the people therefore isn't being met now, as we arnt anywhere near 60 percent for the union

What should be done under they circumstances?

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[wee_cooper]

Oh that poll was obviously biased from the private polling company that asked a question that suited your view. That's how they work you see.

Ok. So we are agreed that the polling companies are not the route for deciding. Good stuff. So how do we decide if people want another indyref? Scottish Parliament election?

[James310]

Ok. So we are agreed that the polling companies are not the route for deciding. Good stuff. So how do we decide if people want another indyref? Scottish Parliament election?

I was of course being sarcastic.

I have made my point many times over and over, I am not going to repeat it over and over. I get most on here don't like it because it requires the SNP actually convincing more people Independence is the way forward, and that's really hard for them at the moment. But maybe paper 3 in a series of how many I am not sure is the game changer, or maybe like the first 2 it will say nothing new.

[wee_cooper]

I was of course being sarcastic.

I have made my point many times over and over, I am not going to repeat it over and over. I get most on here don't like it because it requires the SNP actually convincing more people Independence is the way forward, and that's really hard for them at the moment. But maybe paper 3 in a series of how many I am not sure is the game changer, or maybe like the first 2 it will say nothing new.

No, you haven't. If you have then you have done it badly

[James310]

No, you haven't. If you have then you have done it badly

Really, it seems to be mentioned a significant number of times as well. There is a 60% chance you might see it if you read back 60% of the last posts.

But as a reminder, I agree with Nicola Sturgeon.

"So let me be clear. To propose another referendum in the next parliament without strong evidence that a significant number of those who voted No have changed their minds would be wrong and we won’t do it.

It would not be respecting the decision that people made."

[Ozyhibby]

You did ask or someone else did, but basically the same way the SNP would have done it, whatever that was. Feel free to trawl back and check.

But here is another Nicola Sturgeon quote, this time from 2015 and I agree with her.

"So let me be clear. To propose another referendum in the next parliament without strong evidence that a significant number of those who voted No have changed their minds would be wrong and we won’t do it.

It would not be respecting the decision that people made."

Has a "significant number", and that's her words not mine, of people who voted No changed their minds? No evidence they have.

Are we still in that parliament that NS was talking about there?


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[James310]

Are we still in that parliament that NS was talking about there?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, it was a speech from 2015.

I still agree with the principal of it. Yes Brexit happened, but even after Brexit and Boris Johnson the "strong evidence" she was looking for before still isn't there.

[Ozyhibby]

No, it was a speech from 2015.

I still agree with the principal of it. Yes Brexit happened, but even after Brexit and Boris Johnson the "strong evidence" she was looking for before still isn't there.

So it was time limited? Obviously it does not apply now?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1875godsgift]

Maybe 18 months? I don't know.

I wasn't following Brexit polls but it proves my point, don't hold a referendum unless it's to just confirm what is already the known will of the people. It should be a confirmatory thing, not a toss of a coin.

Well this little nugget of information of Brexit polls from 2016 kinda screws up your criteria on holding a referendum then....




Conducted by
Date
Remain
Leave
Undecided
Lead
Notes






What UK Thinks: EU[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-WhatUKThinks-14)
23 June
52%
48%
N/A
4%
Six most recent polls.


Elections Etc.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-15)
23 June
50.6%
49.4%
N/A
1.2%
Twelve most recent polls. Telephone polls are adjusted in favour of Leave and online polls in favour of Remain.


HuffPost Pollster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Huffington_Post)[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-16)
23 June
45.8%
45.3%
9%
0.5%



Number Cruncher Politics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_Cruncher_Politics)[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-NCPolitics-17)
22 June
46%
44%
10%
2%
Equal weighting to phone and online polls.


Financial Times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Times)[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-FTPollOfPolls-18)
13 June
48%
46%
6%
2%
Five most recent polls.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-19)


The Telegraph (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Telegraph)[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-Telegraph-20)
21 June
51%
49%
N/A
2%
Six most recent polls.


The Economist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist)[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-Economist-21)
6 June
44%
44%
9%
0%




Conducted by
Date
Remain
Leave
Undecided
Lead
Notes






What UK Thinks: EU[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-WhatUKThinks-14)
23 June
52%
48%
N/A
4%
Six most recent polls.


Elections Etc.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-15)
23 June
50.6%
49.4%
N/A
1.2%
Twelve most recent polls. Telephone polls are adjusted in favour of Leave and online polls in favour of Remain.


HuffPost Pollster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Huffington_Post)[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-16)
23 June
45.8%
45.3%
9%
0.5%



Number Cruncher Politics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_Cruncher_Politics)[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-NCPolitics-17)
22 June
46%
44%
10%
2%
Equal weighting to phone and online polls.


Financial Times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Times)[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-FTPollOfPolls-18)
13 June
48%
46%
6%
2%
Five most recent polls.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-19)


The Telegraph (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Telegraph)[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-Telegraph-20)
21 June
51%
49%
N/A
2%
Six most recent polls.


The Economist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist)[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-Economist-21)
6 June
44%
44%
9%
0%

[Berwickhibby]

Aye, Catterick. Hell hole of a place, ****ed off to Durham, Darlington or Hartlepool at every opportunity.

No idea about the names of any pubs or clubs, that part of my life is just an alcohol induced blur. :greengrin

You must remember the Scorpion in Catterick …a ****hole of a club…made 8 Sigs NAAFI disco appear sophisticated 🤣🤣🤣

[Hibrandenburg]

You must remember the Scorpion in Catterick …a ****hole of a club…made 8 Sigs NAAFI disco appear sophisticated 🤣🤣🤣

I've still got mental scarring from Scabs, I made the mistake of staying there one night until the lights went on. :wink:

I thought we were talking about Darlington.

[Moulin Yarns]

You did ask or someone else did, but basically the same way the SNP would have done it, whatever that was. Feel free to trawl back and check.

But here is another Nicola Sturgeon quote, this time from 2015 and I agree with her.

"So let me be clear. To propose another referendum in the next parliament without strong evidence that a significant number of those who voted No have changed their minds would be wrong and we won’t do it.

It would not be respecting the decision that people made."

Has a "significant number", and that's her words not mine, of people who voted No changed their minds? No evidence they have.

Opinion polls suggest that they have, 49% Aye to 48% naw in the most recent panelbase poll earlier this month.

You seem to be obsessed with quoting the first minister 😂

[James310]

Well this little nugget of information of Brexit polls from 2016 kinda screws up your criteria on holding a referendum then....




Conducted by
Date
Remain
Leave
Undecided
Lead
Notes






What UK Thinks: EU[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-WhatUKThinks-14)
23 June
52%
48%
N/A
4%
Six most recent polls.


Elections Etc.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-15)
23 June
50.6%
49.4%
N/A
1.2%
Twelve most recent polls. Telephone polls are adjusted in favour of Leave and online polls in favour of Remain.


HuffPost Pollster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Huffington_Post)[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-16)
23 June
45.8%
45.3%
9%
0.5%



Number Cruncher Politics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_Cruncher_Politics)[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-NCPolitics-17)
22 June
46%
44%
10%
2%
Equal weighting to phone and online polls.


Financial Times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Times)[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-FTPollOfPolls-18)
13 June
48%
46%
6%
2%
Five most recent polls.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-19)


The Telegraph (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Telegraph)[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-Telegraph-20)
21 June
51%
49%
N/A
2%
Six most recent polls.


The Economist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist)[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-Economist-21)
6 June
44%
44%
9%
0%




Conducted by
Date
Remain
Leave
Undecided
Lead
Notes






What UK Thinks: EU[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-WhatUKThinks-14)
23 June
52%
48%
N/A
4%
Six most recent polls.


Elections Etc.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-15)
23 June
50.6%
49.4%
N/A
1.2%
Twelve most recent polls. Telephone polls are adjusted in favour of Leave and online polls in favour of Remain.


HuffPost Pollster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Huffington_Post)[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-16)
23 June
45.8%
45.3%
9%
0.5%



Number Cruncher Politics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_Cruncher_Politics)[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-NCPolitics-17)
22 June
46%
44%
10%
2%
Equal weighting to phone and online polls.


Financial Times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Times)[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-FTPollOfPolls-18)
13 June
48%
46%
6%
2%
Five most recent polls.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-19)


The Telegraph (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Telegraph)[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-Telegraph-20)
21 June
51%
49%
N/A
2%
Six most recent polls.


The Economist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist)[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Un ion_membership_referendum#cite_note-Economist-21)
6 June
44%
44%
9%
0%



How? It shows no side in a clear lead therefore no Referendum should take place as it would not be a confirmatory exercise, more a flip of a coin.

It makes my point for me.

[James310]

Opinion polls suggest that they have, 49% Aye to 48% naw in the most recent panelbase poll earlier this month.

You seem to be obsessed with quoting the first minister 😂

You are not that silly to suggest one single opinion poll, when about 80% of the previous ones showed No winning, is a sure fire sign that people have changed their mind in significant numbers, but that seems to be what you are suggesting. So if the next poll that comes out say next week had 49% No and 48% Yes then all those people that you seem to be claiming have significantly changed their mind have now unchanged their mind?

[Since90+2]

How? It shows no side in a clear lead therefore no Referendum should take place as it would not be a confirmatory exercise, more a flip of a coin.

It makes my point for me.

Here's a novel idea. Actually ask the country in a referendum and we'll know for sure.

Dunno why nobody has ever thought of it before now

[James310]

I suppose it depends what period you are thinking about when you say 80% showed No.
Certainly for the last four years or so, since the impacts of Brexit have become more clear, the consensus of polling appears to be in Yes' favour.

Here's my evidence to support this. https://twitter.com/EmilyIpsosScot/status/1536611488458317824?s=20&t=2rAUoTvgFaAbbqezu14Atg

That's a single polling company. Below is all the polls from all the companies.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence#:~:text=P olls%20in%20the%20run%2Dup,an%20overall%20turnout% 20of%2084.6%25
.

[James310]

Here's a novel idea. Actually ask the country in a referendum and we'll know for sure.

Dunno why nobody has ever thought of it before now

Erm we did ask the country, they said No. It has been thought of before and we did it.

[grunt]

That's a single polling company. Below is all the polls from all the companies.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_on_Scottish_independence#:~:text=P olls%20in%20the%20run%2Dup,an%20overall%20turnout% 20of%2084.6%25
.
I guess you'll win when there's a referendum then. Might as well give up.

[grunt]

Erm we did ask the country, they said No. It has been thought of before and we did it.And the situation has changed since we were last asked. So let's ask again, eh?

[grunt]

You know, we have banter on this thread, and we go to and fro.

But I struggle to put into words the vast depression that settles on me to even consider remaining attached to this fascist rightwing UK Government. If we have another referendum, and we lose again, I honestly don't know how I would cope with that. This Tory Government is leading us to oblivion.

[lapsedhibee]

The anti referendum case currently presented on here appears to be that a referendum should not be held unless it's virtually certain what the outcome would be.

And people say that Truss is mad as a box of something.

[James310]

And the situation has changed since we were last asked. So let's ask again, eh?

Brexit happened, but there is no evidence people have changed their minds on Independence as a result of that, if there was Yes would be leading in all the polls and would be for a period of time, they aren't and haven't.

And round and round we go etc.

After Brexit I am surprised support for Independence never increased, I am even more surprised it never increased after the Boris Johnson debacle. But it seems the people of Scotland aren't convinced Independence is the way forward. That may still yet change.

[Moulin Yarns]

Erm we did ask the country, they said No. It has been thought of before and we did it.

And you have never regretted anything or changed your mind, ever?

[James310]

The anti referendum case currently presented on here appears to be that a referendum should not be held unless it's virtually certain what the outcome would be.

And people say that Truss is mad as a box of something.

Generally that's what referendums are for, confirming what we already know and basically rubber stamping it officially. It's a reasonable concept, rather than basically flipping a coin and seeing what way it lands. You take the country with you and make it a far better place with everyone working towards the same or similar goals, or you flip a coin and the losing side make it difficult and you end up with years of economic damage, see Brexit.

[James310]

And you have never regretted anything or changed your mind, ever?

Of course, and nowhere am I saying people can't change their mind. I am saying the opposite, if people change their mind and there is "strong evidence" of that we hold another referendum.

I am repeating myself over and over again, I will bow out for a while and give everyone a rest!

[Moulin Yarns]

Glad to see we have got rid of the silly 60% requirement and now just have a referendum once the outcome is already known. Makes sense to me, saves a lot of time and effort. 🙄


Maybe we shouldn't let the people decide on anything and let the politicians decide, oh wait, they have!

[Ozyhibby]

You know, we have banter on this thread, and we go to and fro.

But I struggle to put into words the vast depression that settles on me to even consider remaining attached to this fascist rightwing UK Government. If we have another referendum, and we lose again, I honestly don't know how I would cope with that. This Tory Government is leading us to oblivion.

It’s why we need patience. The goal is independence, not a referendum. Unionist stalling is playing into our hands. The demographics are in our favour.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Since90+2]

Erm we did ask the country, they said No. It has been thought of before and we did it.

Brexit.

[lapsedhibee]

Generally that's what referendums are for, confirming what we already know and basically rubber stamping it officially. It's a reasonable concept, rather than basically flipping a coin and seeing what way it lands. You take the country with you and make it a far better place with everyone working towards the same or similar goals, or you flip a coin and the losing side make it difficult and you end up with years of economic damage, see Brexit.

Nonsense.

[Bostonhibby]

And you have never regretted anything or changed your mind, ever?A bit of an aside to the main debate but on the reference to Brexit here, I live in the heart of a Brexit backing constituency and if you strip out the folk I know who were vocal in backing Brexit because they had a vision of a Britain free of immigrants I have been surprised by how many I know who openly say they would not have voted in favour of it this time around.

I guess, if from time to time, the will of the people,not the politicians, looks to have changed it's up to the people from all sides to sense check where they are?

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

Of course, and nowhere am I saying people can't change their mind. I am saying the opposite, if people change their mind and there is "strong evidence" of that we hold another referendum.

I am repeating myself over and over again, I will bow out for a while and give everyone a rest!

You are repeating yourself, and I'm also repeating myself that the only way to find out if there is strong evidence is to ask the people by holding a referendum.

As an example, Opinion polls have their uses but they don't allow everyone a voice. My wife fills in YouGov online questionnaires so there will be some things she says that appears in opinion polls while I don't do that so my opinion is not known.

[grunt]

Brexit happened, but there is no evidence people have changed their minds on Independence as a result of that ...
I did.

[The Modfather]

The anti referendum case currently presented on here appears to be that a referendum should not be held unless it's virtually certain what the outcome would be.

And people say that Truss is mad as a box of something.

If I was running the independence campaign I’d run it on the following lines:

• Put forward an open and honest economic case for independence. Like a business plan, we will have to do x in the short term for the long term benefit of y.
• Explain a realistic timescale for the-joining the EU. In the short term it’s likely to take x time and there will likely to be X short term factors to mitigate, however these will be worth it because re-joining will mitigate the y in the here and now of Brexit
• Independence isn’t about the SNP, an autonomous Scottish Labour and Scottish Tories could offer genuine and progressive alternatives to their current irrelevant guises today
• Talk about potential future visions, renewable energy being a cornerstone of the economy, getting rid of ego stroking impractical things like Trident, there will be other visions that’s just a quick stab at mine

That’s a positive argument being put forward. How would the no side combat that with a positive vision of their own? I don’t see how they can. It would be easy to simply join in the finger pointing and call out the current managed decline. However I think it would be far more effective to simply say, ok that’s fair to call out the possible difficulties of Independence, we acknowledge these. What constructive and positive visions can you put forward for the union in the short, medium and long term alongside calling out the potential difficulties of independence.

[archie]

If I was running the independence campaign I’d run it on the following lines:

• Put forward an open and honest economic case for independence. Like a business plan, we will have to do x in the short term for the long term benefit of y.
• Explain a realistic timescale for the-joining the EU. In the short term it’s likely to take x time and there will likely to be X short term factors to mitigate, however these will be worth it because re-joining will mitigate the y in the here and now of Brexit
• Independence isn’t about the SNP, an autonomous Scottish Labour and Scottish Tories could offer genuine and progressive alternatives to their current irrelevant guises today
• Talk about potential future visions, renewable energy being a cornerstone of the economy, getting rid of ego stroking impractical things like Trident, there will be other visions that’s just a quick stab at mine

That’s a positive argument being put forward. How would the no side combat that with a positive vision of their own? I don’t see how they can. It would be easy to simply join in the finger pointing and call out the current managed decline. However I think it would be far more effective to simply say, ok that’s fair to call out the possible difficulties of Independence, we acknowledge these. What constructive and positive visions can you put forward for the union in the short, medium and long term alongside calling out the potential difficulties of independence.Interesting, but can you help me with a point that confuses me. I read a lot here about how the SNP would pretty much cease to exist after independence. In the light of that how can the SNP set out a convincing prospectus if they won't be there?

[Moulin Yarns]

Interesting, but can you help me with a point that confuses me. I read a lot here about how the SNP would pretty much cease to exist after independence. In the light of that how can the SNP set out a convincing prospectus if they won't be there?

I've said it often enough here that, in my opinion, the SNP are probably hindering the independence case because some people will never listen to them under any circumstances. I would rather have an independent, non party, organisation, along the lines of Common Weal.

[The Modfather]

Interesting, but can you help me with a point that confuses me. I read a lot here about how the SNP would pretty much cease to exist after independence. In the light of that how can the SNP set out a convincing prospectus if they won't be there?

Independence isn’t or shouldn’t be about the SNP. In time I wouldn’t be surprised to see the party fragment into a couple of different parties with different views of running an independent Scotland. If the SNP are serious about independence they would be best putting the independence cause ahead of their self interest in maintaining their monopoly of Scottish politics. When do parties or politicians ever put the greater good ahead of their own self interest though.

[James310]

You are repeating yourself, and I'm also repeating myself that the only way to find out if there is strong evidence is to ask the people by holding a referendum.

As an example, Opinion polls have their uses but they don't allow everyone a voice. My wife fills in YouGov online questionnaires so there will be some things she says that appears in opinion polls while I don't do that so my opinion is not known.

I can't let this pass, you do know how opinion polls work? They are a representative sample, just because nobody asked you doesn't mean they are not valid.

That's like saying all the opinion polls are invalid as nobody asked you. Thousands will complete polls and they take a representative sample of those thousands.

[Eaststand]

I did.

So did I, so that makes it an impressive 100% of us both that did it.

Bring the next referendum on

GGTTH

[Moulin Yarns]

I can't let this pass, you do know how opinion polls work? They are a representative sample, just because nobody asked you doesn't mean they are not valid.

That's like saying all the opinion polls are invalid as nobody asked you. Thousands will complete polls and they take a representative sample of those thousands.

That's fine, but let's agree to disagree that the only opinion poll that is truly representative of the Scottish population is the next referendum. Remember the Scottish Government has already introduced the legislation to allow for any future referenda.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1550817810233843713?s=21&t=mWr3mEgbZ4EkoPTAOX2v-Q

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220723/5cdbfeaad916f6d6f31685e013cbce92.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1550817810233843713?s=21&t=mWr3mEgbZ4EkoPTAOX2v-Q

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220723/5cdbfeaad916f6d6f31685e013cbce92.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Another box ticked. ✅

I particularly liked this part of his thread.

Unionists going 'how dare the SNP spend so much time on this' should reflect on the fact that refusing to negotiate at all after defeats, has lead to this situation.

Who could have avoided this court case? The UK Gov, or the electorate, but the electorate voted for this.

[ronaldo7]

SCOTTISH Labour has been asked to explain its position after the First Minister of Wales, Labour’s Mark Drakeford, said the SNP had a mandate to deliver a second independence referendum.

Drakeford, who has led Wales since 2018 and now governs in cooperation with pro-independence Plaid Cymru, made the comments on BBC Radio Four on Friday.

The Labour first minister was speaking about the topic of Unionism when he was asked if a new prime minister should “give Nicola Sturgeon the referendum on independence that she wants for Scotland”. Drakeford suggested that they should.

He said: “I’ve always been clear that if you have a government that is elected by its people with such a proposition in its manifesto it should have the right to implement that manifesto.

“The Scottish National Party, much as I disagree with them on the issue, won an election on the basis that they would seek another referendum.

“How can that be denied to the Scottish people?”

Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar has been staunch in his opposition to a second referendum, insisting it is a “distraction”.

In the 2021 Holyrood election – which saw Scottish Labour return just 22 MSPs, its poorest ever result – Sarwar pledged to oppose indyref2 for the entirety of the parliamentary term.

Over to you Anas. Democracy or Bust.

[Jack]

SCOTTISH Labour has been asked to explain its position after the First Minister of Wales, Labour’s Mark Drakeford, said the SNP had a mandate to deliver a second independence referendum.

Drakeford, who has led Wales since 2018 and now governs in cooperation with pro-independence Plaid Cymru, made the comments on BBC Radio Four on Friday.

The Labour first minister was speaking about the topic of Unionism when he was asked if a new prime minister should “give Nicola Sturgeon the referendum on independence that she wants for Scotland”. Drakeford suggested that they should.

He said: “I’ve always been clear that if you have a government that is elected by its people with such a proposition in its manifesto it should have the right to implement that manifesto.

“The Scottish National Party, much as I disagree with them on the issue, won an election on the basis that they would seek another referendum.

“How can that be denied to the Scottish people?”

Scottish Labour leader Anas Sarwar has been staunch in his opposition to a second referendum, insisting it is a “distraction”.

In the 2021 Holyrood election – which saw Scottish Labour return just 22 MSPs, its poorest ever result – Sarwar pledged to oppose indyref2 for the entirety of the parliamentary term.

Over to you Anas. Democracy or Bust.

Sarwar: B, bust please.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1550817810233843713?s=21&t=mWr3mEgbZ4EkoPTAOX2v-Q

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220723/5cdbfeaad916f6d6f31685e013cbce92.jpg


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What does this even mean?

It seems to suggest the SNP party have decided to intervene in the Supreme Court, to argue that the case argued by the Lord Advocate, appointed by the SNP Government, is not the position of the SNP party?

The Lord Advocate must be pretty pissed off at the moment after reading that. Also seems a tad arrogant, they know better than Scotland's top law officer do they? What's stopping other interested parties intervening as well if the SNP party can?

Which position does Nicola Sturgeon agree with, the government or the party?

Maybe it's part of some grand plan but what's the advantage here to be gained?

https://twitter.com/KennyFarq/status/1550909240834916353?t=tsTRuQXK8V-8d_JRVSlKsg&s=19

[lapsedhibee]

What does this even mean?

It seems to suggest the SNP party have decided to intervene in the Supreme Court, to argue that the case argued by the Lord Advocate, appointed by the SNP Government, is not the position of the SNP party?

The Lord Advocate must be pretty pissed off at the moment after reading that. Also seems a tad arrogant, they know better than Scotland's top law officer do they? What's stopping other interested parties intervening as well if the SNP party can?

Which position does Nicola Sturgeon agree with, the government or the party?

Maybe it's part of some grand plan but what's the advantage here to be gained?

The SG's position is that it is not within the power of the UKG to forbid a referendum, as it's not a legally reserved matter. The Supreme Court has been asked to rule. If the Supreme Court rules that having a referendum is not a reserved matter, the SG can go ahead and have one, and it will not be illegal. That's my reading.

[James310]

The SG's position is that it is not within the power of the UKG to forbid a referendum, as it's not a legally reserved matter. The Supreme Court has been asked to rule. If the Supreme Court rules that having a referendum is not a reserved matter, the SG can go ahead and have one, and it will not be illegal. That's my reading.

That was the position before today, what does this new development mean? Why have the SNP party (not the government) got involved? For what reason?

[wee_cooper]

I can't let this pass, you do know how opinion polls work? They are a representative sample, just because nobody asked you doesn't mean they are not valid.

That's like saying all the opinion polls are invalid as nobody asked you. Thousands will complete polls and they take a representative sample of those thousands.

So should we just have opinion polls from now on and not have elections?

[lapsedhibee]

That was the position before today, what does this new development mean? Why have the SNP party (not the government) got involved? For what reason?
Adding political weight, rather than going against the Lord Advocate.

[James310]

Adding political weight, rather than going against the Lord Advocate.

Well they are, only a few weeks ago Nicola Sturgeon First Minister announced to Parliament a plan. Now Nicola Sturgeon as leader of the SNP is advocating a different approach. If the Lord Advocate knew this was happening then fair enough, if she wasn't told then she could be rightly be pretty pissed off.

[James310]

So should we just have opinion polls from now on and not have elections?

No.

[lapsedhibee]

Well they are, only a few weeks ago Nicola Sturgeon First Minister announced to Parliament a plan. Now Nicola Sturgeon as leader of the SNP is advocating a different approach. If the Lord Advocate knew this was happening then fair enough, if she wasn't told then she could be rightly be pretty pissed off.

Let's all speculate that the Lord Advocate is FURIOUS that she was SNUBBED by Sturgeon.

[James310]

Let's all speculate that the Lord Advocate is FURIOUS that she was SNUBBED by Sturgeon.

If she knew this was happening then fine, if she never then she could be a bit pissed off. If you agree an approach with the LA as the FM and then propose a totally different one 2 weeks later as leader of the SNP that totally disregards the advice you got then it does seem a strange move to make.

It feels like it's just another fight about process rather than a serious argument about Independence, the SG know they are likely to lose so why not create another grievance while we are at it, they can say the big bad English court rejected the SNP as well as the SG.

It will be lapped up by her supporters as the red meat it is.

[wee_cooper]

No.

So what's the answer? If you are a democrat then you must have a solution

[James310]

So what's the answer? If you are a democrat then you must have a solution

I am not repeating it yet again, sorry.

[xyz23jc]

What does this even mean?

It seems to suggest the SNP party have decided to intervene in the Supreme Court, to argue that the case argued by the Lord Advocate, appointed by the SNP Government, is not the position of the SNP party?

The Lord Advocate must be pretty pissed off at the moment after reading that. Also seems a tad arrogant, they know better than Scotland's top law officer do they? What's stopping other interested parties intervening as well if the SNP party can?

Which position does Nicola Sturgeon agree with, the government or the party?

Maybe it's part of some grand plan but what's the advantage here to be gained?

https://twitter.com/KennyFarq/status/1550909240834916353?t=tsTRuQXK8V-8d_JRVSlKsg&s=19

Which position does Nicola Sturgeon agree with, the government or the party?

Weirdly, the Electorate! :wink:

[wee_cooper]

I am not repeating it yet again, sorry.

Why not? If you believe in it then you should be fine with repeating it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Why not? If you believe in it then you should be fine with repeating it.

Something to do with 60% of opinion polls have to agree with the no camp to be valid if I got it right. 🤷

[ronaldo7]

What does this even mean?

It seems to suggest the SNP party have decided to intervene in the Supreme Court, to argue that the case argued by the Lord Advocate, appointed by the SNP Government, is not the position of the SNP party?

The Lord Advocate must be pretty pissed off at the moment after reading that. Also seems a tad arrogant, they know better than Scotland's top law officer do they? What's stopping other interested parties intervening as well if the SNP party can?

Which position does Nicola Sturgeon agree with, the government or the party?

Maybe it's part of some grand plan but what's the advantage here to be gained?

https://twitter.com/KennyFarq/status/1550909240834916353?t=tsTRuQXK8V-8d_JRVSlKsg&s=19

If you'd read Conor Matchetts thread, he explains it rather well.

It would save you speculating.

[ronaldo7]

Adding political weight, rather than going against the Lord Advocate.

Correct.

[CropleyWasGod]

If you'd read Conor Matchetts thread, he explains it rather well.

It would save you speculating.

I must admit, I was struggling to understand the reasoning, but this part of his thread sums it up for me:-

It makes perfect sense politically and strategically for the SNP to intervene. It's central to their electoral purpose and gives them a platform to rail against the UK Gov's intransigence. Whether the court thinks it is a distraction and not worth hearing is another matter.

So the LA gives the legal argument, the SNP the political one.

The SNP want the right to say to the judge 'this is why we think you should a) allow this reference and b) grant legality of indyref2'.

Their intervention would allow for a stronger, more political and less restrictive argument to be made than the Lord Advocate could do.

Presumably, the Opposition parties (or maybe the UK Tories) could make a similar intervention.

[ronaldo7]

The LA is part of the executive, the NEC of the SNP, are intervening, as a political party speaking for the people. (not all though, calm down at the back) The executive is made up of two parties. The SNP NEC has every right to intervene.

An intriguing step.

Im sure the Tories have Annie Wells looking at it as we type.

[Ozyhibby]

The LA is part of the executive, the NEC of the SNP, are intervening, as a political party speaking for the people. (not all though, calm down at the back) The executive is made up of two parties. The SNP NEC has every right to intervene.

An intriguing step.

Im sure the Tories have Annie Wells looking at it as we type.

Anybody can offer to intervene. Pamela Nash could give it a go. The court will decide who is relevant. It’s not a big deal.


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[ronaldo7]

Anybody can offer to intervene. Pamela Nash could give it a go. The court will decide who is relevant. It’s not a big deal.


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Im hoping Jill Stephenson gets the gig. 😂

[He's here!]

Well they are, only a few weeks ago Nicola Sturgeon First Minister announced to Parliament a plan. Now Nicola Sturgeon as leader of the SNP is advocating a different approach. If the Lord Advocate knew this was happening then fair enough, if she wasn't told then she could be rightly be pretty pissed off.

I doubt the Lord Advocate feels she has any say in this. She was appointed on Sturgeon's recommendation, attends cabinet meetings and is basically the Scottish government's chosen legal mouthpiece. Her predecessor James Wolffe (he of the grovelling public apology re the Rangers administrator prosecution fiasco) took a lot of flak for intervening in the Salmond inquiry and blocking the publication of numerous documents but he was only really carrying out the SG's bidding. Bain may not believe the SG has the legal power to hold a referendum but if that's not what Sturgeon wants to hear then her opinion is of little consequence.

[StevieC]

Bain may not believe the SG has the legal power to hold a referendum but if that's not what Sturgeon wants to hear then her opinion is of little consequence.

And it is just an opinion, which is all anyone can provide until it goes through the legal process. And everyone has the right to go through the legal process regardless of what opinions they may receive prior to starting the process. It would need to be a pretty sensitive lawyer that got upset because someone chose to go through a legal process regardless of their opinion. Their whole career will have had situations where advice or opinion was ignored by clients wanting to go to court.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/bellacaledonia/status/1551173494557245441?t=KiH2HTe2POgaaDbZayWC2g&s=19

This sounds serious, cyber attack on Bellacaledonia.org.uk

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-indyref2-split-welsh-first-27561735?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Love Ian Murray’s quote in here that Scotland is fed up of the SNP? He must be taking drugs.[emoji23]


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-indyref2-split-welsh-first-27561735?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Love Ian Murray’s quote in here that Scotland is fed up of the SNP? He must be taking drugs.[emoji23]


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Probably read it on hibs.net 😉

[Keith_M]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-indyref2-split-welsh-first-27561735?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Love Ian Murray’s quote in here that Scotland is fed up of the SNP? He must be taking drugs.[emoji23]


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Probably read it on hibs.net ��


Maybe we should have a poll on which username we all think he uses on DotNet.

:wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

good turnout for the first(i think anyway :greengrin) SSRG Conference yesterday, think it's today/tomorrow as well

i would have liked to have went along, shoulda coulda etc, but anyway.

Inde-Car was there yesterday and gave some thoughts...



The SSRG conference "Empowering the Nation" was a huge success. I was there yesterday to speak in the first panel debate on the six possible routes to ending the union.

The over- capacity audience was truly international, with many English, European and American Scots in the audience.

It was also great to be able to actually change UK pounds for Scottish pound notes, which could be used to buy souvenirs, food and books in the venue.

It was great to meet the hundreds of activists, with whom I have been interacting online, but have never met face to face.

Today and tomorrow the conference moves from the Scottish law processes we will use to liberate ourselves from colonisation, to the currency, central bank, economy, defence and constitutional arrangements of the new state.

I'm sorry I can't be there throughout, but I will report on the historic disclosures and announcements, as they happen, and I rely on all of you to get this vital knowledge shared to all contacts.

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/how-to-be-an-independent-country-scotlands-choices/id1632206170?i=1000570766847

Surprisingly impartial podcast from the Scotsman.


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[grunt]

Posted with no comment, other than to explain this is a quote from Liz Truss.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FY-7hd_XoAAxu7O?format=jpg&name=small

[Callum_62]

Posted with no comment, other than to explain this is a quote from Liz Truss.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FY-7hd_XoAAxu7O?format=jpg&name=smallSeems entirely reasonable and level headed to me

Unionist must be delighted

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[cabbageandribs1875]

jeezo they need to update this for project fear mk2, what's next, Oil and Gas running out in the next few years



https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/295991213_3376075532667478_5659390641161832108_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=L3a_qhEMbDgAX-PEFws&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-WFTkgUbtV3rOqi3P9RlV96hPfdTgsjonZDRIjFX0ZpA&oe=62EC739A

[Stairway 2 7]

jeezo they need to update this for project fear mk2, what's next, Oil and Gas running out in the next few years



https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/295991213_3376075532667478_5659390641161832108_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=L3a_qhEMbDgAX-PEFws&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-WFTkgUbtV3rOqi3P9RlV96hPfdTgsjonZDRIjFX0ZpA&oe=62EC739A

There's been a huge amount of military ship building on the Clyde this decade and alot on order. Its not so much a frigate factory but a huge hanger for bae that looks like it will go ahead

[Hibrandenburg]

jeezo they need to update this for project fear mk2, what's next, Oil and Gas running out in the next few years



https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/295991213_3376075532667478_5659390641161832108_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=L3a_qhEMbDgAX-PEFws&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-WFTkgUbtV3rOqi3P9RlV96hPfdTgsjonZDRIjFX0ZpA&oe=62EC739A

Fool me once, shame on me.......

[Stairway 2 7]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/type-26-frigate-project-update-first-in-water-this-year/

There are 13 warships in build or being procured at Scottish shipyards. Hms Glasgow frigate will be in the water this year. This hanger will ensure the next type will get built in the Clyde too

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/type-26-frigate-project-update-first-in-water-this-year/

There are 13 warships in build or being procured at Scottish shipyards. Hms Glasgow frigate will be in the water this year. This hanger will ensure the next type will get built in the Clyde too


is that 2022 one just a load of made-up nonsense ? or another tw@t mucking around with they dafty photoshop things again:rolleyes:

[Stairway 2 7]

is that 2022 one just a load of made-up nonsense ? or another tw@t mucking around with they dafty photoshop things again:rolleyes:

Not sure. It's a private company anyway so independence shouldn't matter to it, it's bae that are investing. They aren't going to knock down the factory if we get independence, they take orders from every nation and could Scotland and England separately in future. Seems like fear mongering by vote no

[Bostonhibby]

Seems entirely reasonable and level headed to me

Unionist must be delighted

Sent from my VOG-L29 using TapatalkI'm wondering if she knows which part of the Soviet union Scotland is, maybe she needs to have another chat with that nice Sergey Lavrov at one of his after school geography classes for foreign secretaries.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

Go Greens

Scottish Greens back de facto referendum plans if indyref2 blocked | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/20591080.scottish-greens-back-de-facto-referendum-plans-indyref2-blocked/?fbclid=IwAR03UAKtKq5AAzLLV5qGF9Yaoh4vra9f75DnNUTJ 7WgoU9Rxq9Vw8X6UMEg)

THE Scottish Greens (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/scottish-greens/) have vowed to fight the next general election as a “de-facto independence (https://www.thenational.scot/news/scottish-independence/) referendum” if plans to stage a referendum next year are blocked.
At a meeting of the party’s national council on Sunday, the party said if there was no second referendum in October 2023 on the future of Scotland’s place in the UK, it would fight the election on the constitutional question.



Pamela Nash, chief executive of the group Scotland in Union, claimed there was “no such thing as a de facto referendum”.
The former Labour (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/labour/) MP for Airdrie and Shotts said: “People vote for parties in an election on a whole range of issues, and the next election will be about the economy (https://www.thenational.scot/news/scottish-economy/), the climate emergency and many other topics.

“Rather than divide the people of Scotland, as part of the UK we can invest more in public services, work together to tackle the climate emergency, and unite our people and communities.”


but can we not also unite our people as part of the EU, does pamela not like the idea of instead 'uniting' and 'investing in public services' by being part of a much larger union by doing business with 450m :confused:

[cabbageandribs1875]

Not sure. It's a private company anyway so independence shouldn't matter to it, it's bae that are investing. They aren't going to knock down the factory if we get independence, they take orders from every nation and could Scotland and England separately in future. Seems like fear mongering by vote no


good stuff, muchos gracias

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,less-than-half-of-scottish-green-voters-in-favour-of-independence

Scottish Greens voters hold mixed views on independence, with their support for Scotland going it alone less than clear-cut.

An opinion poll by Lord Ashcroft Polls found that only 43 per cent of those who intended to vote Green in a constituency supported independence, while 46 per cent were against it.

Of those likely to vote Green in the regional list vote 68 per cent would support independence, while 23 per cent would vote against it.

[Since90+2]

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,less-than-half-of-scottish-green-voters-in-favour-of-independence

Scottish Greens voters hold mixed views on independence, with their support for Scotland going it alone less than clear-cut.

An opinion poll by Lord Ashcroft Polls found that only 43 per cent of those who intended to vote Green in a constituency supported independence, while 46 per cent were against it.

Of those likely to vote Green in the regional list vote 68 per cent would support independence, while 23 per cent would vote against it.

I would imagine the green list vote numbers are far higher than constituency?

[JeMeSouviens]

I would imagine the green list vote numbers are far higher than constituency?

You'd be right.

2021

constituency 34,990
list 220,324

[Ozyhibby]

A vote for Indy is a vote for cheaper prices.[emoji106]

https://amp.theguardian.com/money/2022/jul/30/brexit-uk-shoppers-pay-more-eu-zara-ikea-decathlon


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[Ozyhibby]

Scotland is now to be ignored.

https://twitter.com/davidparsley50/status/1554184823610171398?s=21&t=aFKGXKGpJttW224ktRYcfw


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[grunt]

Scotland is now to be ignored.

https://twitter.com/davidparsley50/status/1554184823610171398?s=21&t=aFKGXKGpJttW224ktRYcfw

It's so sad that there are so many voters here in Scotland who are quite accepting of this attitude.

[Skol]

Scotland is now to be ignored.

https://twitter.com/davidparsley50/status/1554184823610171398?s=21&t=aFKGXKGpJttW224ktRYcfw


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Nicola sturgeon is not Scotland.

[Skol]

A vote for Indy is a vote for cheaper prices.[emoji106]

https://amp.theguardian.com/money/2022/jul/30/brexit-uk-shoppers-pay-more-eu-zara-ikea-decathlon


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The article says brexit has led to higher prices in some shops. It doesn’t necessarily follow that independence will reverse that.

[Kato]

Scotland is now to be ignored.

https://twitter.com/davidparsley50/status/1554184823610171398?s=21&t=aFKGXKGpJttW224ktRYcfw


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIgnore what people voted for in Northern Ireland. Ignore what people voted for in Scotland.

What more would anyone expect? It's a prime plank of their project to keep any kind of culture war cooking.

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[Ozyhibby]

The article says brexit has led to higher prices in some shops. It doesn’t necessarily follow that independence will reverse that.

If we rejoin the EU then why would our prices not drop inline with the rest of the EU?


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[Ozyhibby]

Nicola sturgeon is not Scotland.

Like it or not, she is elected to speak for Scotland.


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[grunt]

Nicola sturgeon is not Scotland.
You may not like it, but she's the elected First Minister of Scotland. Saying you'll ignore NS is like saying you'll ignore Scotland.
Or perhaps you disagree?

[Skol]

If we rejoin the EU then why would our prices not drop inline with the rest of the EU?


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When are we join8ng the EU. Still waiting for details

[Skol]

You may not like it, but she's the elected First Minister of Scotland. Saying you'll ignore NS is like saying you'll ignore Scotland.
Or perhaps you disagree?

And by the same token sturgeon is ignoring 55% of Scot’s who voted no in 2014