Scottish Independence

[He's here!]

Salmond back on the attack. I can't imagine too many are listening though:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20023679.alex-salmond-nicola-sturgeons-government-becoming-incompetent/

His thoughts on North Sea production do make some sense IMO:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60888180

[Ozyhibby]

Salmond back on the attack. I can't imagine too many are listening though:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20023679.alex-salmond-nicola-sturgeons-government-becoming-incompetent/

His thoughts on North Sea production do make some sense IMO:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60888180

I’m not sure public ownership of wind farms is that great an idea given how poor we are at building ferries. The govt has a stake in these wind farms anyway with the tax it imposes. And as far as carbon capture goes, has it ever been proven to work?


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[Stairway 2 7]

I’m not sure public ownership of wind farms is that great an idea given how poor we are at building ferries. The govt has a stake in these wind farms anyway with the tax it imposes. And as far as carbon capture goes, has it ever been proven to work?


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Carbon capture isn't economical yet. That's why although we produce the equivalent of 100% of our energy through renewables, but 40% or so of our energy we use is non renewable though

[greenginger]

Carbon capture isn't economical yet. That's why although we produce the equivalent of 100% of our energy through renewables, but 40% or so of our energy we use is non renewable though

That 100% of energy. Does that include the gas used for heating ?

[Ozyhibby]

That 100% of energy. Does that include the gas used for heating ?

That will be just electricity. Heat and transport are the big challenges now.


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[Stairway 2 7]

We need to find a way to store energy cheaply world wide. Some days uk produces 100% of energy from wind, yesterday due to hardly any wind only 2.5%
25723

[cabbageandribs1875]

so McColl told a porkie huh

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/277553938_10219059885304807_6315993057528257748_n. jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=RkmIGzLRsGMAX_ej29_&tn=vIvSFNl06GFFe0Qb&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT95e4ZNiPsEv2anTkF2BOqvPU9LvssgJVXO0tneUo_7 vQ&oe=6248CD15

[SteveHFC]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1591444/nicola-sturgeon-news-scottish-independence-vote-latest-poll/amp

Devastating news.

[Crunchie]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1591444/nicola-sturgeon-news-scottish-independence-vote-latest-poll/amp

Devastating news.
Not for the majority of Scots it would seem.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/this-is-how-to-save-the-union

Devolution should be scrapped?


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[wookie70]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1591444/nicola-sturgeon-news-scottish-independence-vote-latest-poll/amp

Devastating news.

I've never been convinced Sturgeon was that bothered about getting another Indi Ref during her time as leader. The SNP is far more about the SNP than it is about Independence and they probably realise that their party wouldn't last 5 minutes after a successful Indi vote, so are in no rush to lose their very well paid and high profile jobs. There really needs to be a proper Yes movement that is not bound by a party or parties and whose only aim is a Yes vote and as many yes voting politicians in power. The SNP did their best to stop that at the last election by asking voters to essentially waste their second votes on the SNP. Their crazy council congestion plan will hurt them too in Edinburgh and the Lothians.

I'm desperate to vote yes again but still regret voting SNP the single time I did.

[Ozyhibby]

I've never been convinced Sturgeon was that bothered about getting another Indi Ref during her time as leader. The SNP is far more about the SNP than it is about Independence and they probably realise that their party wouldn't last 5 minutes after a successful Indi vote, so are in no rush to lose their very well paid and high profile jobs. There really needs to be a proper Yes movement that is not bound by a party or parties and whose only aim is a Yes vote and as many yes voting politicians in power. The SNP did their best to stop that at the last election by asking voters to essentially waste their second votes on the SNP. Their crazy council congestion plan will hurt them too in Edinburgh and the Lothians.

I'm desperate to vote yes again but still regret voting SNP the single time I did.

Any SNP politician who helps deliver independence will have a very secure financial future I would think. Rarely does delivering success have a downside.
Do you really think if NS delivers Indy and then stops being FM that she would miss her wages? She would make a lot more money the minute she stopped being FM.


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[degenerated]

When did you last see a £1 note in general circulation ?Almost as long ago as when I posted that :hilarious

[greenginger]

I
Almost as long ago as when I posted that :hilarious

My old tech is out of date too , clicked on latest page and went to first page :confused: :greengrin

[degenerated]

I

My old tech is out of date too , clicked on latest page and went to first page :confused: :greengrinHappens to the best of us :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Great points made by Stephen Gethins recently. If it's good enough for Labour, then it's good enough for us...

In terms of when you can have a Referendum I think Labour’s 1983 Manifesto committed to withdrawal from the EC just 8 years after the 1975 Referendum on membership & to establishing a ‘Scottish Assembly’ just 4 years after the previous Referendum on that issue.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/majority-of-scots-back-keeping-trident-according-to-poll/

A new poll from Survation has found that 58% of people in Scotland believe the UK should keep Trident and that only 20% were certain it should be axed, with the remainder undecided

[Ozyhibby]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/majority-of-scots-back-keeping-trident-according-to-poll/

A new poll from Survation has found that 58% of people in Scotland believe the UK should keep Trident and that only 20% were certain it should be axed, with the remainder undecided

Sounds about right. I think when Scotland becomes independent that it will end up staying and the new Scottish govt will accept a significant lease payment every year.


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/majority-of-scots-back-keeping-trident-according-to-poll/

A new poll from Survation has found that 58% of people in Scotland believe the UK should keep Trident and that only 20% were certain it should be axed, with the remainder undecided

Usual bollocks poll from good old Scotland in Union. First ask some leading questions about the UK's influence in the world, then ask one about the UK's "independent nuclear deterrent" with no mention of its location or the context in which the UK would exist going forward. I mean I don't really have a strong opinion on whether rUK keeps Trident in Wales or wherever.

Then having asked those questions, claim that:


As proud Scots, maintaining our position and influence in the world is key. And it’s clear from this opinion poll there is little appetite to diminish our global standing. Scottish people want to continue to participate fully in the world, to make the most effective contributions to global institutions, and to retain the benefits of our membership. Remaining part of the UK is the best way to protect and enhance Scotland’s global influence, and to support our friends and allies across the globe.

I mean, where do you start? That the poll made no mention of indy or continuing union? The cringeworthy "proud Scots"? The fact we have precisely zero position or infuence in the world currently? We're not even a country ffs. How we're supposed to make this "effective contribution" felt when it's inconceivable that an MP from a Scottish constituency could be in the cabinet apart from as the routinely ignored Scottish secretary?

It's bizarre. :confused:

[Ozyhibby]

Usual bollocks poll from good old Scotland in Union. First ask some leading questions about the UK's influence in the world, then ask one about the UK's "independent nuclear deterrent" with no mention of its location or the context in which the UK would exist going forward. I mean I don't really have a strong opinion on whether rUK keeps Trident in Wales or wherever.

Then having asked those questions, claim that:



I mean, where do you start? That the poll made no mention of indy or continuing union? The cringeworthy "proud Scots"? The fact we have precisely zero position or infuence in the world currently? We're not even a country ffs. How we're supposed to make this "effective contribution" felt when it's inconceivable that an MP from a Scottish constituency could be in the cabinet apart from as the routinely ignored Scottish secretary?

It's bizarre. :confused:

Be great if Pamela Nash was leading Better Together 2.[emoji106]


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[Bristolhibby]

Sounds about right. I think when Scotland becomes independent that it will end up staying and the new Scottish govt will accept a significant lease payment every year.


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My thoughts too. Realpolitik in action.

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220510/c2fa8891b7ca14da43d3c80a057b4038.jpg

The playbook doesn’t change.[emoji23]


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[StevieC]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220510/c2fa8891b7ca14da43d3c80a057b4038.jpg

The playbook doesn’t change.[emoji23]


An economic disaster for who though? 🤔

[Steven79]

An economic disaster for who though? [emoji848]England as it's always about what's best for England...

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[ronaldo7]

Sweden, and Finland, fast tracked into NATO membership. Which one of these countries has nuclear weapons?

[Stairway 2 7]

Sweden, and Finland, fast tracked into NATO membership. Which one of these countries has nuclear weapons?

You don't need nuclear weapons to be in it, but its a nuclear power so have to be pro. Subs can use your waters ect, Germany Italy and more base US nukes on their land

[Ozyhibby]

You don't need nuclear weapons to be in it, but its a nuclear power so have to be pro. Subs can use your waters ect, Germany Italy and more base US nukes on their land

I’m entirely comfortable with that. Those bases would be a significant contribution to NATO from Scotland.


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[ronaldo7]

You don't need nuclear weapons to be in it, but its a nuclear power so have to be pro. Subs can use your waters ect, Germany Italy and more base US nukes on their land

As a member, you can also have a strong commitment to full implementation of the nuclear non proliferation treaty.

NATO is not a nuclear power. The 3 individual nuclear weapon states of the alliance maintain absolute custody and control over their weapons.

France don't even get involved in the nuclear planning group, which is the alliances main multilateral forum on nuclear policy.

[Stairway 2 7]

As a member, you can also have a strong commitment to full implementation of the nuclear non proliferation treaty.

That's 50 years old and outdated before Ukraine and just ridiculous now. No one is giving up there nukes in any numbers. Nato is a nuclear power happy to use weapons, you must be in agreement with that if joining.

Scotland would be mad not to join in the current climate and I'm sure they will

[ronaldo7]

That's 50 years old and outdated before Ukraine and just ridiculous now. No one is giving up there nukes in any numbers. Nato is a nuclear power happy to use weapons, you must be in agreement with that if joining.

Scotland would be mad not to join in the current climate and I'm sure they will

Regularly updated. I think around 2016/17, and 20.

I'm all for joining btw. We'd have a seat at the table.

[Stairway 2 7]

Regularly updated. I think around 2016/17, and 20.

I'm all for joining btw. We'd have a seat at the table.

It's updated but pointless when us Russia and China pay it lip service.

I'm for joining and they will welcome us and into the EU. Should cancel the fears about wee Scotland being alone. We could have a small but competent army and the backing of the massive nato

[Moulin Yarns]

https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/05/why-scottish-not-british-leads-scotland/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1652977512-3


Probably matches the Hibs.net demographic 😉

[Bristolhibby]

That's 50 years old and outdated before Ukraine and just ridiculous now. No one is giving up there nukes in any numbers. Nato is a nuclear power happy to use weapons, you must be in agreement with that if joining.

Scotland would be mad not to join in the current climate and I'm sure they will

Faslane is a vital access point to the Northern Greenland, Iceland, Scotland gap.

J

[Skol]

https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/05/why-scottish-not-british-leads-scotland/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1652977512-3


Probably matches the Hibs.net demographic 😉

Thats an interesting article but not sure what to make of it. It’s no secret that I don’t favour independence, but I do and always have identified as Scottish. I have been frustrated as in the good old days before online I could write down Scottish. Now it doesn’t appear as an option.

The only time I have felt British to an extent was during the 2012 olympics. In fact the only Scottish person I have come across who would identify as British was a rabid hun.

[Ozyhibby]

Thats an interesting article but not sure what to make of it. It’s no secret that I don’t favour independence, but I do and always have identified as Scottish. I have been frustrated as in the good old days before online I could write down Scottish. Now it doesn’t appear as an option.

The only time I have felt British to an extent was during the 2012 olympics. In fact the only Scottish person I have come across who would identify as British was a rabid hun.

Over the last 25 years I would say that this has been happening in England to an even larger extent. It used to be that they all considers themselves British but I think more and more these days they see themselves as English. It used to be that England football games would have union flags everywhere, nowadays it’s all St. George’s Cross. Probably Euro 96 a turning point?


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[Renfrew_Hibby]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;6969047]Over the last 25 years I would say that this has been happening in England to an even larger extent. It used to be that they all considers themselves British but I think more and more these days they see themselves as English. It used to be that England football games would have union flags everywhere, nowadays it’s all St. George’s Cross. Probably Euro 96 a turning point?

Quite clearly if you watch back England games from the Italy 1990 world Cup, it's mostly Union Jack's on display in the stands. Fast forward to Euro 96 and Wembley is a wash with St.Georges crosses, hardly a UJ to be seen.

Not sure what was going on, tail end of a long period of Tory rule playing a part?

I was in my mid teens in the mid 90s and I lived through a Scottish cultural explosion, from literature to the big screen to music. You could feel it, we were discussing the merits of devolution and the potential of a Scottish Parliament in my modern studies class.

The whole Scottish reawakening in young people during that period is a key moment and an under reported moment at that.
I think the whole 3 lions, England flag phenomenon was in some way a response to that.

[lapsedhibee]

Over the last 25 years I would say that this has been happening in England to an even larger extent. It used to be that they all considers themselves British but I think more and more these days they see themselves as English. It used to be that England football games would have union flags everywhere, nowadays it’s all St. George’s Cross. Probably Euro 96 a turning point?

Quite clearly if you watch back England games from the Italy 1990 world Cup, it's mostly Union Jack's on display in the stands. Fast forward to Euro 96 and Wembley is a wash with St.Georges crosses, hardly a UJ to be seen.

Not sure what was going on, tail end of a long period of Tory rule playing a part?

I was in my mid teens in the mid 90s and I lived through a Scottish cultural explosion, from literature to the big screen to music. You could feel it, we were discussing the merits of devolution and the potential of a Scottish Parliament in my modern studies class.

The whole Scottish reawakening in young people during that period is a key moment and an under reported moment at that.
I think the whole 3 lions, England flag phenomenon was in some way a response to that.

Definitely a response to that. Up until that period English used the Union Flag because they thought the UK was England. With loud noises about devolution etc, it became obvious even to Engerland football fans that the UK wasn't just England.

[Crunchie]

https://sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/05/why-scottish-not-british-leads-scotland/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1652977512-3


Probably matches the Hibs.net demographic 😉
I've always identified as being Scottish over British and I'm surprised the figure is so low, I don't want independence anytime soon though.

[cabbageandribs1875]

a Tory rag but interesting interview

NEIL MACKAY'S BIG READ: 'The EU would welcome an independent Scotland ... but currency is going to be the main problem' says former French ambassador | HeraldScotland (https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20156781.neil-mackays-big-read-the-eu-welcome-independent-scotland-currency-going-main-problem-says-former-french-ambassador/?fbclid=IwAR1UyEtXVEdPjJNHHEXAFuPT47bgFNBUUwJVVYSs KEWM8ffBD6qbKGjQbkk)

NEIL MACKAY'S BIG READ: 'The EU would welcome an independent Scotland ... but currency is going to be the main problem' says former French ambassador

[Hibby Bairn]

New YouGov poll out today. 55/45 No/Yes when excluding undecideds.

[cabbageandribs1875]

and what about the other half Mr BBC

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/284275676_5336527386369049_5289315265388488610_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=Itea_qKrQUMAX_9sxK3&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AT8p_DFZ7PagtzI16e7cBzqPFqkp_Jod0orVA4hsiG6l 8g&oe=6294F71D

[SHODAN]

and what about the other half Mr BBC

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/284275676_5336527386369049_5289315265388488610_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=Itea_qKrQUMAX_9sxK3&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AT8p_DFZ7PagtzI16e7cBzqPFqkp_Jod0orVA4hsiG6l 8g&oe=6294F71D

Interesting reporting angle. "Nearly half" the population supported remaining in the EU too but that wasn't the headline.

[Moulin Yarns]

and what about the other half Mr BBC

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/284275676_5336527386369049_5289315265388488610_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=Itea_qKrQUMAX_9sxK3&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AT8p_DFZ7PagtzI16e7cBzqPFqkp_Jod0orVA4hsiG6l 8g&oe=6294F71D

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2022/0526/1301284-united-ireland-survey/


Incredible how the same survey can be reported differently!

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61556317

Tories want gene edited crops in Scotland. Don't know much about it. Obviously has a bad name but could it help if done safely

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61556317

Tories want gene edited crops in Scotland. Don't know much about it. Obviously has a bad name but could it help if done safely

I’m sure it could be a good thing but I don’t think it’s in Scotlands interest to diverge from EU agricultural standards. We still sell into that market and it’s hard enough as it is. And it could make it harder to re-enter the single market should we choose to do so.


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[James310]

I’m sure it could be a good thing but I don’t think it’s in Scotlands interest to diverge from EU agricultural standards. We still sell into that market and it’s hard enough as it is. And it could make it harder to re-enter the single market should we choose to do so.


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So it would help people but because at some point in the unspecified future their might be a referendum and Yes might win and then again at some other unspecified point in the future we might join the EU we shouldn't do it?

[Stairway 2 7]

I’m sure it could be a good thing but I don’t think it’s in Scotlands interest to diverge from EU agricultural standards. We still sell into that market and it’s hard enough as it is. And it could make it harder to re-enter the single market should we choose to do so.


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I think the EU is close to ending it so I guess we'll go in time with them. Takes me back to the news of people destroying GM crops a decade or so ago

[Stairway 2 7]

So it would help people but because at some point in the unspecified future their might be a referendum and Yes might win and then again at some other unspecified point in the future we might join the EU we shouldn't do it?

More to do with will the EU buy them I presume?

[Ozyhibby]

So it would help people but because at some point in the unspecified future their might be a referendum and Yes might win and then again at some other unspecified point in the future we might join the EU we shouldn't do it?

We still sell to the EU now? We should not be trying to make it harder for our farmers than it already is.


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[James310]

We still sell to the EU now? We should not be trying to make it harder for our farmers than it already is.


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I thought the farmers were all for it.

Wheat farmer Willie Thomson from Longniddry, heads the NFU's combinable crops committee.

"There's potential in these crops to be more robust and reliable. So that's really what we're after, especially in a time of food insecurity."

He believes it would be unfair to allow English producers to grow gene-edited batches and sell into the same UK market."

[James310]

More to do with will the EU buy them I presume?

I am guessing but I would assume what they sell in the EU dwarfs what they sell in the UK. I would rather be competitive in my biggest market.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am guessing but I would assume what they sell in the EU dwarfs what they sell in the UK. I would rather be competitive in my biggest market.

That's the spirit 😂😂😂

[Bostonhibby]

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2022/0526/1301284-united-ireland-survey/


Incredible how the same survey can be reported differently!In news elsewhere, Bozo was attending work events not parties, especially the one with the karaoke machine.

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[Jones28]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61556317

Tories want gene edited crops in Scotland. Don't know much about it. Obviously has a bad name but could it help if done safely

It’s not an if/maybe issue, it’s a necessity.

I’m not a Tory at all, but we need crops in this country that can handle increasingly extreme conditions.

[James310]

That's the spirit 😂😂😂

Again I am not sure what point you are making?

[danhibees1875]

Again I am not sure what point you are making?

I think it's because you got your words the wrong way round and made it sound like the EU market is more important.

I think Scottish farmers were in line with businesses generally in selling about 3 times as much within the UK as to the EU.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think it's because you got your words the wrong way round and made it sound like the EU market is more important.

I think Scottish farmers were in line with businesses generally in selling about 3 times as much within the UK as to the EU.

Damn, you've spoilt it. I wanted Jimmy to be right for a change. :wink:

[James310]

Damn, you've spoilt it. I wanted Jimmy to be right for a change. :wink:

Whatever makes you happy, which is seemingly not much. 😉

[James310]

I think it's because you got your words the wrong way round and made it sound like the EU market is more important.

I think Scottish farmers were in line with businesses generally in selling about 3 times as much within the UK as to the EU.

Ta, strange thing for him to get so excited about but there you go.

[Ozyhibby]

I think it's because you got your words the wrong way round and made it sound like the EU market is more important.

I think Scottish farmers were in line with businesses generally in selling about 3 times as much within the UK as to the EU.

Which is likely true but that still means that a quarter of the market could be lost?


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[danhibees1875]

Which is likely true but that still means that a quarter of the market could be lost?


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If it does hold true for farming then it's 20% to EU (60% UK, 20% RoW).

Tbh, I've no idea the extent to which a decision on GMOs would either lose that 20%, or make us less viable in the 80%. Knowing the extent of both would allow for a calculated decision - picking the least worst option isn't the best situation to be in though.

[heretoday]

Independent Scotland should spend a packet on defence and the latest nuclear weapons and the rest of the world will fear us. Dinny mess!

[James310]

Anglophobia banned under a new Yes movement code of conduct. The fact such an instruction has to be issued in the first place is quite something.

https://archive.ph/pKU49

[Ozyhibby]

Anglophobia banned under a new Yes movement code of conduct. The fact such an instruction has to be issued in the first place is quite something.

https://archive.ph/pKU49

You never read the code of conduct of any of the UK’s major parties? Tory one has to tell them not to discriminate against women because they are pregnant.


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[James310]

You never read the code of conduct of any of the UK’s major parties? Tory one has to tell them not to discriminate against women because they are pregnant.


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That's good, lots of people do unfortunately discriminate against pregnant woman.

[ronaldo7]

Anglophobia banned under a new Yes movement code of conduct. The fact such an instruction has to be issued in the first place is quite something.

https://archive.ph/pKU49

Does ruk have one for Scotland?

I'd have thought you'd have welcomed this.

[cabbageandribs1875]

But But...that Sir ian wood dude told us oil would run out by 2019...ah ah, don't tell me they lied to us again :(

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/284877000_1153974662106235_7764893488216581050_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=r8XVqZgFklQAX_eBfA3&tn=vIvSFNl06GFFe0Qb&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AT8vgFa6hxcLUWFowW3NP-hLeC7e-xAPMcHeBkm1FpSx_A&oe=629B22FF

[James310]

But But...that Sir ian wood dude told us oil would run out by 2019...ah ah, don't tell me they lied to us again :(

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/284877000_1153974662106235_7764893488216581050_n.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=r8XVqZgFklQAX_eBfA3&tn=vIvSFNl06GFFe0Qb&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AT8vgFa6hxcLUWFowW3NP-hLeC7e-xAPMcHeBkm1FpSx_A&oe=629B22FF

Simon Clarke wasn't even an MP in 2014, he became an MP in 2017.

Also where did you get 2019 from?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28867487


"But Sir Ian Wood estimated production would be down to a sixth of the current levels by 2050."

"What's more, the rundown impact will begin to be felt by 2030, which is only 15 years from now."

[Berwickhibby]

Simon Clarke wasn't even an MP in 2014, he became an MP in 2017.

Also where did you get 2019 from?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28867487


"But Sir Ian Wood estimated production would be down to a sixth of the current levels by 2050."

"What's more, the rundown impact will begin to be felt by 2030, which is only 15 years from now."

But but James it’s on Twitter so it must be true :rolleyes:

[Hibby Bairn]

I'm not a SNP or Nicola Sturgeon supporter. But I am an undecided on Independence. This by Jim Sillars resonates with me...

https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2022/05/31/longest-but/

[Keith_M]

Simon Clarke wasn't even an MP in 2014, he became an MP in 2017.

Also where did you get 2019 from?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28867487


"But Sir Ian Wood estimated production would be down to a sixth of the current levels by 2050."

"What's more, the rundown impact will begin to be felt by 2030, which is only 15 years from now."


Not taking sides on this but.... I didn't see any claim on that twitter post that he was an MP in 2014, only about something that he's alleged to have said.


Not really bothered either way, TBH.

[Santa Cruz]

I'm not a SNP or Nicola Sturgeon supporter. But I am an undecided on Independence. This by Jim Sillars resonates with me...

https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2022/05/31/longest-but/

Good article. Like Sillars, comes across well. Only thing re: the article, it lacks balance. I'm not exactly a fan of the FM, but she does have a number of skills other UK politicians lack, he should have acknowledged that imo. Then it doesn't come across as such an obvious personal attack on her.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/support-for-scottish-independence-divided-50-50-according-to-ipsos-poll-for-stv-news

Yes up to 50%


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[James310]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/support-for-scottish-independence-divided-50-50-according-to-ipsos-poll-for-stv-news

Yes up to 50%


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well to be totally accurate...

"Backing for ‘Yes’ is now at 50% – down five points compared to the last Ipsos poll in December 2021"

But I know what you mean.

[Stairway 2 7]

Stunned yes could be down 5% with the **** show we've seen at Westminster. I think some are doing a poor job at pushing independence. Surely we should have gained 5% at least recently

[He's here!]

'You may hate the English, but don't say so, Scottish independence supporters told'

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/30/anglophobia-banned-new-scottish-independence-code-conduct/

[grunt]

'You may hate the English, but don't say so, Scottish independence supporters told'

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/30/anglophobia-banned-new-scottish-independence-code-conduct/
I'm sure it will come as no surprise for you to discover that those words were never uttered, and the quote is a complete lie.

[lapsedhibee]

I'm sure it will come as no surprise for you to discover that those words were never uttered, and the quote is a complete lie.

Imagine the quality of political debate that might be possible in this country if the Mail, Express and Telegraph didn't exist.

[Skol]

I suppose the good news is that the discussion across the two threads today has stopped anyone noticing the spending review from Kate Forbes yesterday.

[Ozyhibby]

I suppose the good news is that the discussion across the two threads today has stopped anyone noticing the spending review from Kate Forbes yesterday.

What was wrong with it?


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[Skol]

What was wrong with it?


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Nothing clearly. Phew

[ronaldo7]

Does ruk have one for Scotland?

I'd have thought you'd have welcomed this.

If only we got an answer. 😆😆

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-61666582?at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom3=%40BBCScotlandNews&at_custom4=F25FDC9C-E254-11EC-A4EB-659E31EBDC67&at_custom2=twitter&at_campaign=64&at_medium=custom7

Another company that said they would move to London if we became independent.[emoji849]


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[JimBHibees]

I'm sure it will come as no surprise for you to discover that those words were never uttered, and the quote is a complete lie.

Quelle surprise. The level of political debate in this country is horrific. So many outlets allowed to print what they want with no recourse

[Stairway 2 7]

Phillips P. OBrien
@PhillipsPOBrien
As someone who has lived in Scotland for well over two decades, it’s been remarkable to see how the Ukraine War has changed the debate over nuclear weapons and NATO in a few weeks more than anything in the previous 20+ years

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/independent-scotland-could-be-anti-nuclear-and-join-nato-says-leading-campaigner-3718768

There has been a clear cut public opinion shift, now extremely strong support for NATO membership and maintaining nuclear deterrence. So much so that the anti nuclear lobby (see above) is now throwing in the towel on NATO membership

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/majority-scots-want-uk-retain-26921554.amp

Ukraine has exposed a few things that will not change for a while. The first is that NATO membership is now seen as the foundational element of basically all of Europe’s security. Can’t see that changing for decades

Even more fascinating, the reflexive arguments that nuclear weapons are bad, ipso facto, has been called into question. Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons after receiving clear promises of its security, and those promises have been shown to be worthless.

People across Europe are not going to rush for Britain to be nuclearly disarmed with a dangerous, nuclear armed Russia seething on its border. If anything that will probably lead for much greater support for a nuclear deterrent in Europe (as is seen in the Scotland poll)

All of this still has to work it’s way out in Scotland, though there is an interesting direction of travel towards an acceptance that just ditching nuclear weapons is not the clear-cut good thing that many assumed for decades

[Stairway 2 7]

Phillips P. OBrien
@PhillipsPOBrien
As someone who has lived in Scotland for well over two decades, it’s been remarkable to see how the Ukraine War has changed the debate over nuclear weapons and NATO in a few weeks more than anything in the previous 20+ years

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/independent-scotland-could-be-anti-nuclear-and-join-nato-says-leading-campaigner-3718768

There has been a clear cut public opinion shift, now extremely strong support for NATO membership and maintaining nuclear deterrence. So much so that the anti nuclear lobby (see above) is now throwing in the towel on NATO membership

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/majority-scots-want-uk-retain-26921554.amp

Ukraine has exposed a few things that will not change for a while. The first is that NATO membership is now seen as the foundational element of basically all of Europe’s security. Can’t see that changing for decades

Even more fascinating, the reflexive arguments that nuclear weapons are bad, ipso facto, has been called into question. Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons after receiving clear promises of its security, and those promises have been shown to be worthless.

People across Europe are not going to rush for Britain to be nuclearly disarmed with a dangerous, nuclear armed Russia seething on its border. If anything that will probably lead for much greater support for a nuclear deterrent in Europe (as is seen in the Scotland poll)

All of this still has to work it’s way out in Scotland, though there is an interesting direction of travel towards an acceptance that just ditching nuclear weapons is not the clear-cut good thing that many assumed for decades

Matthew Harries
@harries_matthew
· 51m
New poll says 52% of Germans want 🇺🇸 nuclear weapons to stay in 🇩🇪, vs 39% for withdrawal.

Eyebrow-raising : 64% of Green voters want them to stay.

https://tagesschau.de/investigativ/panorama/umfrage-atomwaffen-deutschland-101.html 1/2

Germany too it seems, Ukraine has changed alot. Although surprised how what little amount of Scots want rid of nukes

[Ozyhibby]

Phillips P. OBrien
@PhillipsPOBrien
As someone who has lived in Scotland for well over two decades, it’s been remarkable to see how the Ukraine War has changed the debate over nuclear weapons and NATO in a few weeks more than anything in the previous 20+ years

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/independent-scotland-could-be-anti-nuclear-and-join-nato-says-leading-campaigner-3718768

There has been a clear cut public opinion shift, now extremely strong support for NATO membership and maintaining nuclear deterrence. So much so that the anti nuclear lobby (see above) is now throwing in the towel on NATO membership

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/majority-scots-want-uk-retain-26921554.amp

Ukraine has exposed a few things that will not change for a while. The first is that NATO membership is now seen as the foundational element of basically all of Europe’s security. Can’t see that changing for decades

Even more fascinating, the reflexive arguments that nuclear weapons are bad, ipso facto, has been called into question. Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons after receiving clear promises of its security, and those promises have been shown to be worthless.

People across Europe are not going to rush for Britain to be nuclearly disarmed with a dangerous, nuclear armed Russia seething on its border. If anything that will probably lead for much greater support for a nuclear deterrent in Europe (as is seen in the Scotland poll)

All of this still has to work it’s way out in Scotland, though there is an interesting direction of travel towards an acceptance that just ditching nuclear weapons is not the clear-cut good thing that many assumed for decades

That suits me as I’ve never been in favour of getting rid of them. Hosting them could be a significant Scottish contribution to NATO and would likely be economically advantageous.


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[Just Alf]

That suits me as I’ve never been in favour of getting rid of them. Hosting them could be a significant Scottish contribution to NATO and would likely be economically advantageous.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI used to lean towards disarmament but when Russia invaded Crimea I started to reconsider my position.

The security guarantees Ukraine were given when they gave up theirs (nukes) clearly haven't worked.

I still want independence for Scotland but I'll be voting for whichever party wants to join nato and is happy to maintain the faslane base as it currently is, the 'new' Scottish navy will just have to find an alternative option.

[Ozyhibby]

I used to lean towards disarmament but when Russia invaded Crimea I started to reconsider my position.

The security guarantees Ukraine were given when they gave up theirs (nukes) clearly haven't worked.

I still want independence for Scotland but I'll be voting for whichever party wants to join nato and is happy to maintain the faslane base as it currently is, the 'new' Scottish navy will just have to find an alternative option.

I’m pretty sure that apart from South Africa, every country that has had nukes and then given them up has went on to be invaded.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I’m pretty sure that apart from South Africa, every country that has had nukes and then given them up has went on to be invaded.


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Including Canada?

[Glory Lurker]

Including Canada?

You no seen South Park The Movie?

[Moulin Yarns]

You no seen South Park The Movie?

No.

[Stairway 2 7]

Including Canada?

Canada were like Germany and Italy in they hosted US weapons I think. But yeah got rid of them

[Moulin Yarns]

Canada were like Germany and Italy in they hosted US weapons I think. But yeah got rid of them

I know, which is why I asked the question. They have not had any WMDs since 1984. Don't need them when next door has them, same with the UK and France.

[Stairway 2 7]

I know, which is why I asked the question. They have not had any WMDs since 1984. Don't need them when next door has them, same with the UK and France.

No one is giving up nukes any time soon, Vladimir has put that to bed. Germany, France, UK and Italy and Turkey have them. Nato is a nuclear alliance. We should be a member and that should allow us to have a smaller army post independence I believe.

[WeeRussell]

The dream for me would be for the world, through law/agreement, to completely disarm and get rid of these monsters. It’s disgusting that we’re in a position like we are with them. (I guess most would be the same)

In the absence of that possibility, it’s a tough one when you see the influence they have for jumped-up little lunatics like Putin and their adventures, in terms of enemies not having them.

It makes me sick that the world is dictated by such horrible weapons though.

[Glory Lurker]

No.

Got invaded in that by the States.

[Hibrandenburg]

The dream for me would be for the world, through law/agreement, to completely disarm and get rid of these monsters. It’s disgusting that we’re in a position like we are with them. (I guess most would be the same)

In the absence of that possibility, it’s a tough one when you see the influence they have for jumped-up little lunatics like Putin and their adventures, in terms of enemies not having them.

It makes me sick that the world is dictated by such horrible weapons though.

Would you support violence to achieve that? Not having a go, just curious.

[Moulin Yarns]

Got invaded in that by the States.

Who hasn't been? 😉

[WeeRussell]

Would you support violence to achieve that? Not having a go, just curious.

Nope, not necessarily. Like I say, it’s a dream scenario. Not one I see forthcoming 👍

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61725567?at_campaign=64&at_medium=custom7&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom4=87403310-E6F2-11EC-9709-54180EDC252D&at_custom3=%40BBCScotlandNews
Legal advice published.


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[James310]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61725567?at_campaign=64&at_medium=custom7&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom4=87403310-E6F2-11EC-9709-54180EDC252D&at_custom3=%40BBCScotlandNews
Legal advice published.


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A bit of a disappoinment, tells us very little that we did not already know. There is one snippet that talks about the Scottish Government asking for a "transfer of power" and that can only be achieved by a S30 order. We know the answer to that is going to be no.

Sturgeon did an interview yesterday where she looked really annoyed at the questions, and that was with the pro Indy The National, she looked like she could not be bothered. Imagine if it was the Daily Mail asking her those questions!!

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1534233504669630467?t=-NGICRFM4dm62oWmjE_2TA&s=19


I think she is going down the advisory referendum road based on her comments, which I think is a mistake but it's the last throw of the dice for her perhaps.

There is obviously some kind of hold up with the Referendum Bill, otherwise it would have been published by now. If she is serious about a referendum next year it needs published very soon and needs the UK Government to agree it and vote on it as well.

[JimBHibees]

A bit of a disappoinment, tells us very little that we did not already know. There is one snippet that talks about the Scottish Government asking for a "transfer of power" and that can only be achieved by a S30 order. We know the answer to that is going to be no.

Sturgeon did an interview yesterday where she looked really annoyed at the questions, and that was with the pro Indy The National, she looked like she could not be bothered. Imagine if it was the Daily Mail asking her those questions!!

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1534233504669630467?t=-NGICRFM4dm62oWmjE_2TA&s=19


I think she is going down the advisory referendum road based on her comments, which I think is a mistake but it's the last throw of the dice for her perhaps.

There is obviously some kind of hold up with the Referendum Bill, otherwise it would have been published by now. If she is serious about a referendum next year it needs published very soon and needs the UK Government to agree it and vote on it as well.

Really annoyed ? :greengrin

[James310]

Really annoyed ? :greengrin

Wouldn't we all like to see the legal advice? Then we know what's what?

I think we need some certainty. Is there going to be a referendum in just over 12 months time, if so how will it work? What's the question, who can vote, what's the date, what's the answers to the questions that remain outstanding etc.

We have zero answers just now. Remember Nicola Sturgeon said she would announce all this "within weeks" and that was in January.

[Since90+2]

A bit of a disappoinment, tells us very little that we did not already know. There is one snippet that talks about the Scottish Government asking for a "transfer of power" and that can only be achieved by a S30 order. We know the answer to that is going to be no.

Sturgeon did an interview yesterday where she looked really annoyed at the questions, and that was with the pro Indy The National, she looked like she could not be bothered. Imagine if it was the Daily Mail asking her those questions!!

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1534233504669630467?t=-NGICRFM4dm62oWmjE_2TA&s=19


I think she is going down the advisory referendum road based on her comments, which I think is a mistake but it's the last throw of the dice for her perhaps.

There is obviously some kind of hold up with the Referendum Bill, otherwise it would have been published by now. If she is serious about a referendum next year it needs published very soon and needs the UK Government to agree it and vote on it as well.

In the scenario of an advisory referendum Unionists will boycott it so the result will be meaningless.

The only way we get a proper referendum is if Boris decides he needs something major to take the eyes off the **** show that he's been running. I still don't think it's likely, but it's probably more likely than it was 6 months ago.

In my opinion if the vote was held tomorrow no would win and I think there's a chance Boris will bank on that being the result.

[lapsedhibee]

In the scenario of an advisory referendum Unionists will boycott it so the result will be meaningless.

The only way we get a proper referendum is if Boris decides he needs something major to take the eyes off the **** show that he's been running. I still don't think it's likely, but it's probably more likely than it was 6 months ago.

In my opinion if the vote was held tomorrow no would win and I think there's a chance Boris will bank on that being the result.

"Boris" :bitchy:

[Stairway 2 7]

Advisory referendum is no use at all. I'd go full pelt say were having a full referendum. If boris refuses it makes them look bad and might swing some to yes

[Since90+2]

Advisory referendum is no use at all. I'd go full pelt say were having a full referendum. If boris refuses it makes them look bad and might swing some to yes

What you've described is effectively an advisory referendum. Unless it's given the backing of the UK Government Unionists will boycott it.

It's a ****ty situation to be in but the SNP have to act with the hand they're given.

[Stairway 2 7]

What you've described is effectively an advisory referendum. Unless it's given the backing of the UK Government Unionists will boycott it.

It's a ****ty situation to be in but the SNP have to act with the hand they're given.

I wouldn't have the referendum if it isn't legal though. I'd do all the preparation and advertiment, say this is what the scot voted for by getting us in in the election past.

If tories then say stop that were not letting you have one, then you obviously don't have it. But you say we wanted it, you wanted it by voting us in, but England say they are in charge.

It's good politics and might help uk gov cave

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61785553?at_medium=custom7&at_campaign=64&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom4=D193FEC8-EB3F-11EC-8D18-A0052152A482&at_custom3=%40BBCScotlandNews&at_custom2=twitter

Good timing with a trade war with the EU about to commence and Scotland falling further and further behind our independent neighbours.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61785553?at_medium=custom7&at_campaign=64&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom4=D193FEC8-EB3F-11EC-8D18-A0052152A482&at_custom3=%40BBCScotlandNews&at_custom2=twitter

Good timing with a trade war with the EU about to commence and Scotland falling further and further behind our independent neighbours.


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Nerve wracking but exciting

[James310]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61785553?at_medium=custom7&at_campaign=64&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_custom4=D193FEC8-EB3F-11EC-8D18-A0052152A482&at_custom3=%40BBCScotlandNews&at_custom2=twitter

Good timing with a trade war with the EU about to commence and Scotland falling further and further behind our independent neighbours.


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I know I am in the minority here but she isn't really launching an IndyRef2 campaign tomorrow is she as there is no agreement for any kind of referendum to happen, what she is doing is keeping up the pretence that one is going to happen next year when most people know it won't happen. I guess it keeps the critics off her back for a bit longer. She will spin it out to the next General Election is my guess.

Still it will be interesting to see the papers of things like currency, the border and pensions etc.

[Stairway 2 7]

I know I am in the minority here but she isn't really launching an IndyRef2 campaign tomorrow is she as there is no agreement for any kind of referendum to happen, what she is doing is keeping up the pretence that one is going to happen next year when most people know it won't happen. I guess it keep the critics off her back for a bit longer. She will spin it out to the next General Election is my guess.

Still it will be interesting to see the papers of things like currency, the border and pensions etc.

It's suicide for the uk if they veto a referendum, it will be an inevitability of a yes vote until it eventually happens

[James310]

It's suicide for the uk if they veto a referendum, it will be an inevitability of a yes vote until it eventually happens

They already have as NS said it her interview, what has happened in the polls? No has been leading in almost all the polls, Yes has been leading in about 4 of the last 40.

Nicola Sturgeon fired the "starting gun" in 2017 and Theresa May said no, nothing happened though and it made no difference.

A recent poll also suggested the majority of Scots would respect the ruling of any Supreme Court decision if it gets that far.

She still needs to publish the Bill in the Scottish Parliament, she has been promising that for months now and no sign of it.

[Ozyhibby]

I know I am in the minority here but she isn't really launching an IndyRef2 campaign tomorrow is she as there is no agreement for any kind of referendum to happen, what she is doing is keeping up the pretence that one is going to happen next year when most people know it won't happen. I guess it keeps the critics off her back for a bit longer. She will spin it out to the next General Election is my guess.

Still it will be interesting to see the papers of things like currency, the border and pensions etc.

I think it’s important to update the case for independence to reflect how different the UK is now compared to 2014.
Tomorrow appears to be about comparing Scotland with our independent neighbours and those comparisons have got a lot worse since 2014. Scotland is moving backwards rapidly.


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[James310]

I think it’s important to update the case for independence to reflect how different the UK is now compared to 2014.
Tomorrow appears to be about comparing Scotland with our independent neighbours and those comparisons have got a lot worse since 2014. Scotland is moving backwards rapidly.


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I know that's what she has to do and her supporters expect it, but she is just speaking to the people already convinced. It will be UK is an awful place and Norway/Denmark/Ireland etc is what we can be, but zero details on how. I don't see how that's anything new to what she has been saying for years.

[Ozyhibby]

I know that's what she has to do and her supporters expect it, but she is just speaking to the people already convinced. It will be UK is an awful place and Norway/Denmark/Ireland etc is what we can be, but zero details on how. I don't see how that's anything new to what she has been saying for years.

I actually think that not enough people know just how much poorer Scotland is getting compared with the countries you mention.


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[Stairway 2 7]

They already have as NS said it her interview, what has happened in the polls? No has been leading in almost all the polls, Yes has been leading in about 4 of the last 40.

Nicola Sturgeon fired the "starting gun" in 2017 and Theresa May said no, nothing happened though and it made no difference.

A recent poll also suggested the majority of Scots would respect the ruling of any Supreme Court decision if it gets that far.

She still needs to publish the Bill in the Scottish Parliament, she has been promising that for months now and no sign of it.

It's bafoonary to compare pre brexit to now. The fear of they had before of us being alone which obviously didn't work on 45%, will massively be offset knowing we can join the EU again. Every week the more brexit is a **** show, the more yes voters. Bookies have it split every, but things are going to get much worse in the uk in the next year

[James310]

I actually think that not enough people know just how much poorer Scotland is getting compared with the countries you mention.


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Perhaps if you look purely at GDP, I don't think the common man on the street wakes up worrying about GDP they worry about their job, their health, their kids etc. If the SNP can translate the strategy of look at Norway and how great they are into a way people can understand then maybe that's the way to go. The significantly higher taxes we would all have to pay may be a blocker.

[Ozyhibby]

It's bafoonary to compare pre brexit to now. The fear of they had before of us being alone which obviously didn't work on 45%, will massively be offset knowing we can join the EU again. Every week the more brexit is a **** show, the more yes voters. Bookies have it split every, but things are going to get much worse in the uk in the next year

Brexit is about to shred the Scottish economy.


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[James310]

It's bafoonary to compare pre brexit to now. The fear of they had before of us being alone which obviously didn't work on 45%, will massively be offset knowing we can join the EU again. Every week the more brexit is a **** show, the more yes voters. Bookies have it split every, but things are going to get much worse in the uk in the next year

Well if they can't persuade people now then you would have to question when they can.

Although all the evidence suggests we would be jumping out the frying pan into fire.

[Stairway 2 7]

Well if they can't persuade people now then you would have to question when they can.

Although all the evidence suggests we would be jumping out the frying pan into fire.

Where do you consume your evidence

[James310]

Where do you consume your evidence

The fact that I have seen not a single bit of evidence that suggests Independence will make us better off? Do you have any evidence?

I could post links to the IFS the LSE etc that has done detailed analysis that shows how on the back of Brexit cutting yourself off from your biggest trading partner makes us all poorer but there is little point as it will just be "it's in the Times I don't believe a word of it" or that analysis is biased because of X, Y or Z. But here you go.

https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2021/a-Jan-21/Independence-would-hit-Scottish-economy-2-to-3-times-harder-than-Brexit

But here is a blog from someone who is actually pro.Indy, so I can't be accused of being selective.

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/07/01/sterlingisation-is-how-to-destroy-hope-for-an-independent-scotland/

[Stairway 2 7]

The fact that I have seen not a single bit of evidence that suggests Independence will make us better off? Do you have any evidence?

I could post links to the IFS the LSE etc that has done detailed analysis that shows how on the back of Brexit cutting yourself off from your biggest trading partner makes us all poorer but there is little point as it will just be "it's in the Times I don't believe a word of it" or that analysis is biased because of X, Y or Z. But here you go.

https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2021/a-Jan-21/Independence-would-hit-Scottish-economy-2-to-3-times-harder-than-Brexit



But here is a blog from someone who is actually pro.Indy, so I can't be accused of being selective.

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/07/01/sterlingisation-is-how-to-destroy-hope-for-an-independent-scotland/

Brexit will cost us 32 billion this year, we'll over 3 billion is our split per year. Its expected to be worse next year. But it's more than that we can't live and work easily in eu the same vise versa. We won't be ruled by the vile ***** down south

[Ozyhibby]

The fact that I have seen not a single bit of evidence that suggests Independence will make us better off? Do you have any evidence?

I could post links to the IFS the LSE etc that has done detailed analysis that shows how on the back of Brexit cutting yourself off from your biggest trading partner makes us all poorer but there is little point as it will just be "it's in the Times I don't believe a word of it" or that analysis is biased because of X, Y or Z. But here you go.

https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2021/a-Jan-21/Independence-would-hit-Scottish-economy-2-to-3-times-harder-than-Brexit



But here is a blog from someone who is actually pro.Indy, so I can't be accused of being selective.

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/07/01/sterlingisation-is-how-to-destroy-hope-for-an-independent-scotland/

I guess if you ignore all our independent neighbours who are much richer than Scotland and the gap is widening every day then I guess there is no evidence. We are the poorest country in this part of the world apart from NI and even they are catching us up.


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[James310]

I guess if you ignore all our independent neighbours who are much richer than Scotland and the gap is widening every day then I guess there is no evidence. We are the poorest country in this part of the world apart from NI and even they are catching us up.


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Should be an easy sell then and polls will shoot up for Yes, we will see.

[Ozyhibby]

Should be an easy sell then and polls will shoot up for Yes, we will see.

It’s not an easy sell at all. People are afraid of change and we are up against a Tory party who will say absolutely anything to win.


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[Callum_62]

Should be an easy sell then and polls will shoot up for Yes, we will see.They did during the first campaign and it could quite easily go the same way

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[James310]

They did during the first campaign and it could quite easily go the same way

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True, but as I say we aren't really in any campaign as there is no referendum. If there is an actual campaign then you may be right, although I reckon about 40% on each side are pretty entrenched so it's the middle 20% that will swing it.

[James310]

Brexit will cost us 32 billion this year, we'll over 3 billion is our split per year. Its expected to be worse next year. But it's more than that we can't live and work easily in eu the same vise versa. We won't be ruled by the vile ***** down south

So what did you think of the evidence you asked for?

[Stairway 2 7]

So what did you think of the evidence you asked for?

It's a nonsense as it going on no free trade agreement between Scotland and England. They might threaten it doing campaigning. UK will take free trade deals with anyone that will give us one right now at their price, like India making us take huge numbers of immigrants going forward.

England aren't going to harm themselves further it will be an amicable break, free trade is guaranteed. We'll have the benefits of Northern Ireland but more, especially after they backdown to EU this year. One big problem is brexit is going back surely they will try to sort some sort of re-entry

[Hibby Bairn]

It’s not an easy sell at all. People are afraid of change and we are up against a Tory party who will say absolutely anything to win.


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Surely with all the persuasive, talented people in the SNP that should be an easy barrier to positively leap over. All those benefits and led by the top team for Scotland's future.

[James310]

It's a nonsense as it going on no free trade agreement between Scotland and England. They might threaten it doing campaigning. UK will take free trade deals with anyone that will give us one right now at their price, like India making us take huge numbers of immigrants going forward.

England aren't going to harm themselves further it will be an amicable break, free trade is guaranteed. We'll have the benefits of Northern Ireland but more, especially after they backdown to EU this year. One big problem is brexit is going back surely they will try to sort some sort of re-entry

Like the Brexiteers said, it will be the easiest deal in history, why wouldn't they want to trade with us.

You kind of proved my point, analysis from the LSE that the SNP use to make points about the negative aspects of Brexit is suddenly "nonsense" when it suggests something you don't like.

Let's see what the next few weeks bring us, hopefully more details on all of these things.

[ronaldo7]

The stench of fear on here is palpable.

[Ozyhibby]

It's a nonsense as it going on no free trade agreement between Scotland and England. They might threaten it doing campaigning. UK will take free trade deals with anyone that will give us one right now at their price, like India making us take huge numbers of immigrants going forward.

England aren't going to harm themselves further it will be an amicable break, free trade is guaranteed. We'll have the benefits of Northern Ireland but more, especially after they backdown to EU this year. One big problem is brexit is going back surely they will try to sort some sort of re-entry

Trade will be whatever the UK arranges with the EU. Right now it’s difficult. We will need some border infrastructure for haulage but not private vehicles. Luckily we really only have two main roads crossing the border so it we should be able to manage it fairly easy.
Cars will be able to drive through without stopping just like they do now.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Like the Brexiteers said, it will be the easiest deal in history, why wouldn't they want to trade with us.

You kind of proved my point, analysis from the LSE that the SNP use to make points about the negative aspects of Brexit is suddenly "nonsense" when it suggests something you don't like.

Let's see what the next few weeks bring us, hopefully more details on all of these things.
There's a chance they don't make an easy deal but it will be hell mend then. EU didn't need us, England needs everyone it can. UK are trying desperately to get deals with nations at the other side of the world, we'll join the world's largest trading group just next to us

I'm not the snp and we don't need to use one or even 10 single sources, Brexit it clearly an economical disaster.

[James310]

The stench of fear on here is palpable.

Not really, do you think there will be a referendum next year? I do find it amusing how Nicola Sturgeon can launch new "campaigns" almost yearly and seems totally immune to criticism from within her own party.

Do you believe Nicola Sturgeon will hold and win a referendum in 2023 and she will lead Scotland to Independence?

[ronaldo7]

Not really, do you think there will be a referendum next year? I do find it amusing how Nicola Sturgeon can launch new "campaigns" almost yearly and seems totally immune to criticism from within her own party.

Do you believe Nicola Sturgeon will hold and win a referendum in 2023 and she will lead Scotland to Independence?

Next you'll be asking me for this week's lottery numbers.

I find it amusing that you're all over this thread, as is your right btw, but never touch much on Brexit or your party of choice. As I said, the stench of fear is palpable.

Let's wait and see what's set out tomorrow, but remember, it's only the start.

[James310]

Next you'll be asking me for this week's lottery numbers.

I find it amusing that you're all over this thread, as is your right btw, but never touch much on Brexit or your party of choice. As I said, the stench of fear is palpable.

Let's wait and see what's set out tomorrow, but remember, it's only the start.

I will put you down as an undecided then.

[He's here!]

I know I am in the minority here but she isn't really launching an IndyRef2 campaign tomorrow is she as there is no agreement for any kind of referendum to happen, what she is doing is keeping up the pretence that one is going to happen next year when most people know it won't happen. I guess it keeps the critics off her back for a bit longer. She will spin it out to the next General Election is my guess.

Still it will be interesting to see the papers of things like currency, the border and pensions etc.

Given how long she's been spinning it out for already I imagine continuing to do so until then won't phase her. She must be due a new 'starting gun' bearing in mind how many times it's been fired :wink:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/indypishfsthumb.jpg

[Ozyhibby]

Not really, do you think there will be a referendum next year? I do find it amusing how Nicola Sturgeon can launch new "campaigns" almost yearly and seems totally immune to criticism from within her own party.

Do you believe Nicola Sturgeon will hold and win a referendum in 2023 and she will lead Scotland to Independence?

It’s possible she can’t. It may be illegal for Scotland to democratically decide its own future.
Some people think that is a good thing.
I’m not sure a union held together by laws and not consent is something to be proud of?


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[ronaldo7]

I will put you down as an undecided then.

Your opinion of my decision making, is of little value to me. You're a lost cause. Im working on the real undecideds.

[Just Alf]

Not really, do you think there will be a referendum next year? I do find it amusing how Nicola Sturgeon can launch new "campaigns" almost yearly and seems totally immune to criticism from within her own party.

Do you believe Nicola Sturgeon will hold and win a referendum in 2023 and she will lead Scotland to Independence?Whether it happens next year I can't help but think will be down to the UK government giving permission.

If they do, then the yes/no campaigns can get kicked off, it's going to be really tight and I think no might edge it.
That'll be that for my lifetime as there's no Brexit or similar coming down the line to change the political landscape again.

If the UK government doesn't allow it then they'll have given the indy movement a lot of ammunition and proved to be antidemocratic, an independent Scotland will only be a matter of time at that point... how long is another matter of course.

[James310]

It’s possible she can’t. It may be illegal for Scotland to democratically decide its own future.
Some people think that is a good thing.
I’m not sure a union held together by laws and not consent is something to be proud of?


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Well we did in 2014, all legal and above board.

The polls also suggest if the Supreme Court rules it is illegal, and I don't think it will even get that far, then it has the support of the majority of people of Scotland.

A novel idea would to get support up to 60% and keep it there for while, then I don't think anyone (even me) would object to asking the question again.

It used to be SNP policy to get support up to 60% before a further referendum so it's nothing new.

[James310]

Whether it happens next year I can't help but think will be down to the UK government giving permission.

If they do, then the yes/no campaigns can get kicked off, it's going to be really tight and I think no might edge it.
That'll be that for my lifetime as there's no Brexit or similar coming down the line to change the political landscape again.

If the UK government doesn't allow it then they'll have given the indy movement a lot of ammunition and proved to be antidemocratic, an independent Scotland will only be a matter of time at that point... how long is another matter of course.

Both Theresa May and Boris Johnson have rejected calls for a S30, it made zero difference. As long as the polls are split the way they are it will continue to make zero difference I reckon.

[Ozyhibby]

Well we did in 2014, all legal and above board.

The polls also suggest if the Supreme Court rules it is illegal, and I don't think it will even get that far, then it has the support of the majority of people of Scotland.

A novel idea would to get support up to 60% and keep it there for while, then I don't think anyone (even me) would object to asking the question again.

It used to be SNP policy to get support up to 60% before a further referendum so it's nothing new.

That last sentence is surely nonsense?
In 2014, Cameron respected the will of the Scottish parliament. Johnson is likely to choose not to.
A union held together by force of law.


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[Ozyhibby]

Both Theresa May and Boris Johnson have rejected calls for a S30, it made zero difference. As long as the polls are split the way they are it will continue to make zero difference I reckon.

Don’t think a request for a s30 has been made since 2014?


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[James310]

Don’t think a request for a s30 has been made since 2014?


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She has asked both Theresa May and Boris Johnson, both said no. Both made no difference to the polls.

https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeon-s-section-30-letter-to-theresa-may/


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18112301.nicola-sturgeon-makes-formal-request-section-30-order/

[James310]

That last sentence is surely nonsense?
In 2014, Cameron respected the will of the Scottish parliament. Johnson is likely to choose not to.
A union held together by force of law.


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https://www.scotsman.com/regions/snp-60-support-needed-next-independence-referendum-1492381

Alex Salmond is lots of things but he was a clever politician.

[ronaldo7]

That last sentence is surely nonsense?
In 2014, Cameron respected the will of the Scottish parliament. Johnson is likely to choose not to.
A union held together by force of law.


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Quoting the Scottish secretary, union Jack, and saying it's somehow SNP policy.

The unionists have not started very well.

[Ozyhibby]

No, it was true.

https://www.scotsman.com/regions/snp-60-support-needed-next-independence-referendum-1492381

Alex Salmond is lots of things but he was a clever politician.

Not policy but a suggestion from a former leader. The article you post though says that it could change if the UK leaves the EU.


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[James310]

Quoting the Scottish secretary, union Jack, and saying it's somehow SNP policy.

The unionists have not started very well.

https://www.scotsman.com/regions/snp-60-support-needed-next-independence-referendum-1492381

Alistair Jack wasn't the Scottish Secretary in 2015.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.scotsman.com/regions/snp-60-support-needed-next-independence-referendum-1492381

Alex Salmond is lots of things but he was a clever politician.

Making a claim is not the same as making policy.

Stop digging.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.scotsman.com/regions/snp-60-support-needed-next-independence-referendum-1492381

Alistair Jack wasn't the Scottish Secretary in 2015.

Union Jack made the claim in 2021.

[Mon Dieu4]

Well we did in 2014, all legal and above board.

The polls also suggest if the Supreme Court rules it is illegal, and I don't think it will even get that far, then it has the support of the majority of people of Scotland.

A novel idea would to get support up to 60% and keep it there for while, then I don't think anyone (even me) would object to asking the question again.

It used to be SNP policy to get support up to 60% before a further referendum so it's nothing new.

A novel idea would be that it you win an election on a mandate you get to carry out that mandate(especially when another party with the same idea wins you an overall pro independence majority), the Tories did it with Brexit on 43% of the vote, why do so many people fear democracy?

[Santa Cruz]

https://www.scotsman.com/regions/snp-60-support-needed-next-independence-referendum-1492381

Alex Salmond is lots of things but he was a clever politician.

He was on a politics show recently, maybe the Sunday show at the weekend. He's going nowhere, an ever present thorn in the side of the FM. Do we think he will help or hinder the FM's campaign? She must be well peeved at the thought of him hogging air time. Personally, if I was an undecided, he would be enough to convince me to vote NO. I know he was found not guilty in his court case, but what he did admit too was enough to make me question his morals and would be reluctant to trust anything he said.

If I was an Indy supporter, I think Joanna Cherry is the obvious politician to persuade the undecided voter. You don't take on the UK Gov in the Supreme Court and win unless you have something special about you, she's a clever cookie imo.

[Smartie]

He was on a politics show recently, maybe the Sunday show at the weekend. He's going nowhere, an ever present thorn in the side of the FM. Do we think he will help or hinder the FM's campaign? She must be well peeved at the thought of him hogging air time. Personally, if I was an undecided, he would be enough to convince me to vote NO. I know he was found not guilty in his court case, but what he did admit too was enough to make me question his morals and would be reluctant to trust anything he said.

If I was an Indy supporter, I think Joanna Cherry is the obvious politician to persuade the undecided voter. You don't take on the UK Gov in the Supreme Court and win unless you have something special about you, she's a clever cookie imo.

I think Salmond is probably the biggest asset that the pro union side have.

Just not sure that there will be many undecided votes up for grabs. Folk will vote along much the same lines as the last time, with some folk entering the system being old enough and a few having passed away.

It will be decided by a narrow margin, probably in favour of no and I’m not sure we’ll be any further forward.

[James310]

A novel idea would be that it you win an election on a mandate you get to carry out that mandate(especially when another party with the same idea wins you an overall pro independence majority), the Tories did it with Brexit on 43% of the vote, why do so many people fear democracy?

Before the election she was asked should people vote for her even if they don't want Independence, she said yes. Yet funnily enough every vote after the election was a vote for Indy.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-election-2021-nicola-sturgeon-says-thursday-is-not-an-independence-referendum-3222149

[Ozyhibby]

He was on a politics show recently, maybe the Sunday show at the weekend. He's going nowhere, an ever present thorn in the side of the FM. Do we think he will help or hinder the FM's campaign? She must be well peeved at the thought of him hogging air time. Personally, if I was an undecided, he would be enough to convince me to vote NO. I know he was found not guilty in his court case, but what he did admit too was enough to make me question his morals and would be reluctant to trust anything he said.

If I was an Indy supporter, I think Joanna Cherry is the obvious politician to persuade the undecided voter. You don't take on the UK Gov in the Supreme Court and win unless you have something special about you, she's a clever cookie imo.

Smart lawyer, poor politician. She talks about herself as much as her constituents.
As far as Alex Salmond goes, who cares why his opinion is on anything? He’s yesterday’s man. Totally discredited.
Scotland Tonight trying to get him back in there on the show tonight. His advisor doing his best to knock NS.


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[Ozyhibby]

Before the election she was asked should people vote for her even if they don't want Independence, she said yes. Yet funnily enough every vote after the election was a vote for Indy.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-election-2021-nicola-sturgeon-says-thursday-is-not-an-independence-referendum-3222149

[emoji23]


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[Mon Dieu4]

Before the election she was asked should people vote for her even if they don't want Independence, she said yes. Yet funnily enough every vote after the election was a vote for Indy.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-election-2021-nicola-sturgeon-says-thursday-is-not-an-independence-referendum-3222149

Of course she said they should, did you expect her to go "nah you are alright, if you don't want independence I suggest you vote for someone else, may I suggest the Tories"

It was in their manifesto, they won

[James310]

He was on a politics show recently, maybe the Sunday show at the weekend. He's going nowhere, an ever present thorn in the side of the FM. Do we think he will help or hinder the FM's campaign? She must be well peeved at the thought of him hogging air time. Personally, if I was an undecided, he would be enough to convince me to vote NO. I know he was found not guilty in his court case, but what he did admit too was enough to make me question his morals and would be reluctant to trust anything he said.

If I was an Indy supporter, I think Joanna Cherry is the obvious politician to persuade the undecided voter. You don't take on the UK Gov in the Supreme Court and win unless you have something special about you, she's a clever cookie imo.

Joanne Cherry will never be near the SNP leadership because of her views on gender identity.

[Ozyhibby]

Joanne Cherry will never be near the SNP leadership because of her views on gender identity.

And because she is not very good.


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[degenerated]

Difficult to know what thread to put this one in. Here, the royal family one or one about nonces in general

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/prince-andrew-could-be-sent-to-scotland-to-rebuild-life-as-queen-holds-secret-talks/ar-AAYmM2z

[Ozyhibby]

Difficult to know what thread to put this one in. Here, the royal family one or one about nonces in general

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/prince-andrew-could-be-sent-to-scotland-to-rebuild-life-as-queen-holds-secret-talks/ar-AAYmM2z

Wonder if it’s part of a wider plan to send all those involved in child sex trafficking to Scotland? Maybe they think we don’t care about our kids up here?


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[Since90+2]

And because she is not very good.


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The issue for the SNP is they Sturgeon apart there is very little genuine talent in the party.

[Jones28]

The issue for the SNP is they Sturgeon apart there is very little genuine talent in the party.

Mhairi Black is the only one I know of who is worth listening to. Every time Swinney opens his mouth I want him to stop.

[Since90+2]

Mhairi Black is the only one I know of who is worth listening to. Every time Swinney opens his mouth I want him to stop.

Humza Yousaf is the same. Him and Swinney should not be anywhere near the top of Scottish politics

I do think Kate Forbes looks like she could potentially fill Sturgeon's shoes, but her religious beliefs could put a few off.

[Stairway 2 7]

Surely snp just make it clear that there will be a Scottish parliament election at the earliest opportunity post independence. Loads including myself are just using snp as a vehicle to independence. I'm sure Scotland has just as capable people to push us forward post election than down south

[Ozyhibby]

Surely snp just make it clear that there will be a Scottish parliament election at the earliest opportunity post independence. Loads including myself are just using snp as a vehicle to independence. I'm sure Scotland has just as capable people to push us forward post election than down south

There will be a Scottish Parliament election soon after. There always is. Pretty sure any Indy ref will be held mid term so you are only ever a couple of years away from one anyway.


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[Stairway 2 7]

There will be a Scottish Parliament election soon after. There always is. Pretty sure any Indy ref will be held mid term so you are only ever a couple of years away from one anyway.


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2 years is too long it should be said that it will be the earliest opportunity. It will show that the only aim is independence and not personal careers in politics

[Ozyhibby]

2 years is too long it should be said that it will be the earliest opportunity. It will show that the only aim is independence and not personal careers in politics

Of course but there will be important work needing done in setting up institutions etc. I think there would be an election pretty quickly because it would suit the snp to ride the wave of gaining Indy anyway.


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[heretoday]

I'm not sure people have got the energy for more upheaval. Not yet anyway.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/PeterAdamSmith/status/1536632280097120261?t=lfLpoFFw6OV37UwWQpuGlA&s=19

Pretty decent summary.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm not sure people have got the energy for more upheaval. Not yet anyway.

Just wait brexit hasn't even tickled us yet, then fuel rise in October.

[Stairway 2 7]

If scot gov loses in court the right for the majority party to have a referendum, then its a countdown to when not if Scotland will be independent.

There is unbelievable panicking today from the Scottish reporters of English based media. There jollies to London could soon be stopping

[Kato]

I'm not sure people have got the energy for more upheaval. Not yet anyway.Yes because things are stable at this point, why rock a boat that's totally calm?

I'm being sarcastic BTW.

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[hibsbollah]

I'm not sure people have got the energy for more upheaval. Not yet anyway.

I think being sick of ‘upheaval’ is why a lot of people want shot of the U.K. as soon as possible. Stability was the main argument for Scotland to continue the union, and against independence, thanks to Johnson’s assaults on common norms of law and behaviour that all seems a thing of the past.

[Eaststand]

Not really, do you think there will be a referendum next year? I do find it amusing how Nicola Sturgeon can launch new "campaigns" almost yearly and seems totally immune to criticism from within her own party.

Do you believe Nicola Sturgeon will hold and win a referendum in 2023 and she will lead Scotland to Independence?

I find it very amusing that posters on here who claim to be unionists can't give a handful of reasons why Scotland would be better remaining a part of this so called Union 🤔

Feel free to enlighten me if you can and if you present a strong enough case for Scotland remaining, I might buy a union jack or maybe a Boris Johnston mug for my cuppa.

GGTTH

[James310]

I find it very amusing that posters on here who claim to be unionists can't give a handful of reasons why Scotland would be better remaining a part of this so called Union 🤔

Feel free to enlighten me if you can and if you present a strong enough case for Scotland remaining, I might buy a union jack or maybe a Boris Johnston mug for my cuppa.

GGTTH

I think you have made up your own mind so no matter what I list it wouldn't really matter. But happy to indulge you with a few.

£12BN pounds fiscal transfer each year, pays for lots of "free" stuff.

Free trade across the UK, by far Scotlands biggest trading partner.

A shared currency and the benefit of the Bank of England that allowed us to weather the storm of Covid with massive financial support.

Wealth distribution across the UK, where wealth is generated across the UK it is then distributed to those in need. Scotland for example has the highest public spending per person in the UK.

You wanted a handful so there is a few.

[lapsedhibee]

A shared currency and the benefit of the Bank of England that allowed us to weather the storm of Covid with massive financial support.

I don't understand this. Did smaller European countries than the UK not weather the storm of covid without the Bank of England?

[Ozyhibby]

I think you have made up your own mind so no matter what I list it wouldn't really matter. But happy to indulge you with a few.

£12BN pounds fiscal transfer each year, pays for lots of "free" stuff.

Free trade across the UK, by far Scotlands biggest trading partner.

A shared currency and the benefit of the Bank of England that allowed us to weather the storm of Covid with massive financial support.

Wealth distribution across the UK, where wealth is generated across the UK it is then distributed to those in need. Scotland for example has the highest public spending per person in the UK.

You wanted a handful so there is a few.

The way things are going the UK will be Scotland’s only trading partner.[emoji23]

And wealth distribution? We’re poorer than all our neighbours?

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[Mon Dieu4]

Wealth distribution across the UK, where wealth is generated across the UK it is then distributed to those in need.

Hahahaha hahahaha did I say ha?

[James310]

I don't understand this. Did smaller European countries than the UK not weather the storm of covid without the Bank of England?

They had the Euro, not currently a policy for Scotland or their own currency and own central bank that allowed things like quantative easing. The current SNP plan is I believe to use the pound for X number of years, I am not aware of any other countries using another countries currency through Covid. You can't do quantative easing if you don't have your own currency and own central bank.

[lapsedhibee]

Hahahaha hahahaha did I say ha?

Don't know why you're laughing. UK can be relied on to restribute goods throughout the land. For example, UKGov will solve the problem of Scotland's overabundance of renewable energy sources by transporting most of the energy to the south of England.

[Ozyhibby]

Don't know why you're laughing. UK can be relied on to restribute goods throughout the land. For example, UKGov will solve the problem of Scotland's overabundance of renewable energy sources by transporting most of the energy to the south of England.

And charging us for the privilege.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220614/00ca5d76a081cb162bd47b04abae9bbb.jpg

And Scotland’s performance is even worse than the UK’s as we see celebrated in GERS every year.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.gov.scot/publications/independence-modern-world-wealthier-happier-fairer-not-scotland/pages/3/

Reading through the document, it’s going to be very difficult for unionists to defend the UK. And the situation is deteriorating.


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[James310]

https://www.gov.scot/publications/independence-modern-world-wealthier-happier-fairer-not-scotland/pages/3/

Reading through the document, it’s going to be very difficult for unionists to defend the UK. And the situation is deteriorating.


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I guess time will tell but a document with some bar charts and graphs doesn't quite seem the punchy kick off that I am guessing many were expecting. I am not sure it says anything particularly new and I think the same comparisons with the same countries was made in the Growth Commission report a few years back. Time will tell if this one makes a difference.

https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1536656625251106817?t=CfwjWysEbZx2EZc2IFobVg&s=19

https://twitter.com/NeilMackay/status/1536672791109545985?t=5dLbfGq-0ZX9sHG1zd4-uA&s=19

[Kato]

I guess time will tell but a document with some bar charts and graphs doesn't quite seem the punchy kick off that I am guessing many were expecting. I am not sure it says anything particularly new and I think the same comparisons with the same countries was made in the Growth Commission report a few years back. Time will tell if this one makes a difference.

https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1536656625251106817?t=CfwjWysEbZx2EZc2IFobVg&s=19

https://twitter.com/NeilMackay/status/1536672791109545985?t=5dLbfGq-0ZX9sHG1zd4-uA&s=19Whereas buzz phrases like "wealth distribution" work a trick.

I laughed when I read that onre and notice I'm nit the only one.



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[ronaldo7]

I think you have made up your own mind so no matter what I list it wouldn't really matter. But happy to indulge you with a few.

£12BN pounds fiscal transfer each year, pays for lots of "free" stuff.

Free trade across the UK, by far Scotlands biggest trading partner.

A shared currency and the benefit of the Bank of England that allowed us to weather the storm of Covid with massive financial support.

Wealth distribution across the UK, where wealth is generated across the UK it is then distributed to those in need. Scotland for example has the highest public spending per person in the UK.

You wanted a handful so there is a few.

Wealth distribution is a cracker. 😂

The others have been answered. If this is all you've got we're cooking with Scottish gas.

You forgot the nonce in the castle, and all those lords we have to pay for.

[Berwickhibby]

Wealth distribution is a cracker. 😂

The others have been answered. If this is all you've got we're cooking with Scottish gas.

You forgot the nonce in the castle, and all those lords we have to pay for.

Or another SNP sex pest escapes with 2 day ban that we have to pay for

[WhileTheChief..]

You’ve been cooking with gas for 8 years and still nowhere near ready!!

If the case for the union is so weak, why don’t we see polls showing 70%+ in favour of Indy?

The SNP really need to step their game up. Boris has given you an open goal and you’re not even hitting the post yet.

[ronaldo7]

Or another SNP sex pest escapes with 2 day ban that we have to pay for

I've not seen the case. Are you suggesting those that handed out the judgement got it wrong again.

[ronaldo7]

You’ve been cooking with gas for 8 years and still nowhere near ready!!

If the case for the union is so weak, why don’t we see polls showing 70%+ in favour of Indy?

The SNP really need to step their game up. Boris has given you an open goal and you’re not even hitting the post yet.

We've only started today. 😂

[Berwickhibby]

I've not seen the case. Are you suggesting those that handed out the judgement got it wrong again.

Imho …yes…. But it seems if your a politician of any persuasion…you can do whatever you want

[ronaldo7]

The balance of the media today was there for all to see. Not one positive slant on an independent Scotland. Always negative.

#whynotscotland

[Ozyhibby]

Imho …yes…. But it seems if your a politician of any persuasion…you can do whatever you want

I suspect the SNP will act today.


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[degenerated]

I think you have made up your own mind so no matter what I list it wouldn't really matter. But happy to indulge you with a few.

£12BN pounds fiscal transfer each year, pays for lots of "free" stuff.

Free trade across the UK, by far Scotlands biggest trading partner.

A shared currency and the benefit of the Bank of England that allowed us to weather the storm of Covid with massive financial support.

Wealth distribution across the UK, where wealth is generated across the UK it is then distributed to those in need. Scotland for example has the highest public spending per person in the UK.

You wanted a handful so there is a few.:hilarious where our wealth is redistributed from Scotland an into the offshore bank accounts of Michelle mone, Dido Harding, the landlord at Matt Hancock's local etc whilst we are told we are a mendicant nation relying on our philanthropic neighbour south of the border.

That argument isnt perhaps as much of the golden ticket you think it might be.

[James310]

:hilarious where our wealth is redistributed from Scotland an into the offshore bank accounts of Michelle mone, Dido Harding, the landlord at Matt Hancock's local etc whilst we are told we are a mendicant nation relying on our philanthropic neighbour south of the border.

That argument isnt perhaps as much of the golden ticket you think it might be.

Ok, maybe the wrong term! But I think most people will know what I meant, similar to if Scotland was Independent and the wealth/taxes was generated in the central belt and Aberdeen etc and it's used to help pay for public services in say the Outer Hebrides as the local economy can't support it alone. Scotland has the highest public spending per person in the UK, that's a benefit.

[ronaldo7]

You’ve been cooking with gas for 8 years and still nowhere near ready!!

If the case for the union is so weak, why don’t we see polls showing 70%+ in favour of Indy?

The SNP really need to step their game up. Boris has given you an open goal and you’re not even hitting the post yet.

I'd have thought the unionist would be romping home in the polls with all that wealth distribution coming our way. The rivers in our green and pleasant land flowing with sewage, and that bastion of truth and dignity who is the PM.

[Sylar]

And folks wonder why most of the country don't have an appetite for this again?

Yay. Division and vitriol.

All hail unflinching uncertainty and nastiness for the next x years. Regardless to which side you 'endorse'.

[Stairway 2 7]

And folks wonder why most of the country don't have an appetite for this again?

Yay. Division and vitriol.

All hail unflinching uncertainty and nastiness for the next x years. Regardless to which side you 'endorse'.

Or do nothing and have the tories for the vast majority of our lives and not not be apart of Europe. Vote no will be pushing "we don't want more division", nonsense I want devision from the tories

[Ozyhibby]

And folks wonder why most of the country don't have an appetite for this again?

Yay. Division and vitriol.

All hail unflinching uncertainty and nastiness for the next x years. Regardless to which side you 'endorse'.

Because we are all just so together in the union.[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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[Hiber-nation]

And folks wonder why most of the country don't have an appetite for this again?

Yay. Division and vitriol.

All hail unflinching uncertainty and nastiness for the next x years. Regardless to which side you 'endorse'.

Voting for Independence is a vote against nastiness, division and vitriol.

[ronaldo7]

And folks wonder why most of the country don't have an appetite for this again?

Yay. Division and vitriol.

All hail unflinching uncertainty and nastiness for the next x years. Regardless to which side you 'endorse'.

We only voted recently to give those who won the election the right to follow through on their manifesto. Is that not how it works?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220614/4c5592a1850fe9f8828a1514dc9bc42f.jpg

Well said James Cook.


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[Paul1642]

I think regardless of how you feel about independence, if it goes to another referendum the most important thing is that the result is respected by the looser. We can’t afford another situation as decisive as Brexit.

Indy wins - No unionists going on about how Indy voters were stupid and didn’t know what they were voting for, hoping the whole things is a massive disaster just to say I told you so.

Remain wins - No more talk of Independence / another referendum for a generation. End of.

We seem to be in an era where political losers can’t accept defeat and all it does is divide people further (See USA). Let’s just put it to the vote and everyone accept the outcome and make it work whatever the result. The best thing that could happen in a huge majority. Not 51% - 49% or similar.

[ronaldo7]

I think regardless of how you feel about independence, if it goes to another referendum the most important thing is that the result is respected by the looser. We can’t afford another situation as decisive as Brexit.

Indy wins - No unionists going on about how Indy voters were stupid and didn’t know what they were voting for, hoping the whole things is a massive disaster just to say I told you so.

Remain wins - No more talk of Independence / another referendum for a generation. End of.

We seem to be in an era where political losers can’t accept defeat and all it does is divide people further (See USA). Let’s just put it to the vote and everyone accept the outcome and make it work whatever the result.

The last vote has been respected. We're still in the Union. How about we just accept democracy, and if any party has a referendum in their manifesto and win, they get to have one. Once in a generation is pie in the sky stuff. Let's go with the timescales set by the Good Friday Agreement.

This is what it says...The legislation stipulates that a secretary of state may not make provision for a border poll within seven years of a previous poll.

[Hibrandenburg]

I know I am in the minority here but she isn't really launching an IndyRef2 campaign tomorrow is she as there is no agreement for any kind of referendum to happen, what she is doing is keeping up the pretence that one is going to happen next year when most people know it won't happen. I guess it keeps the critics off her back for a bit longer. She will spin it out to the next General Election is my guess.

Still it will be interesting to see the papers of things like currency, the border and pensions etc.

She'll spin it out or the UK government won't allow Scotland a democratic referendum?

[ronaldo7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220614/4c5592a1850fe9f8828a1514dc9bc42f.jpg

Well said James Cook.


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It seems quite straight forward. Can any Unionist voter explain why it's changed?

[Ozyhibby]

NS will be happy with her days work so far. Nobody has questioned any of the assertions in today’s document so far. Getting unionists to accept that we are the poorest country in Northern Europe is an important step. And everyone knows it’s going to get a lot worse.
Lots of work still to be done but people accepting the terrible situation we are in is a good first step.


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[w pilton hibby]

NS will be happy with her days work so far. Nobody has questioned any of the assertions in today’s document so far. Getting unionists to accept that we are the poorest country in Northern Europe is an important step. And everyone knows it’s going to get a lot worse.
Lots of work still to be done but people accepting the terrible situation we are in is a good first step.


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Have you ever considered that the reason we are considered "the poorest country in Northern Europe" is due to the ineffective government we have had in Scotland for the past 15 years?

[Since90+2]

NS will be happy with her days work so far. Nobody has questioned any of the assertions in today’s document so far. Getting unionists to accept that we are the poorest country in Northern Europe is an important step. And everyone knows it’s going to get a lot worse.
Lots of work still to be done but people accepting the terrible situation we are in is a good first step.


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Are you sure Scotland is poorer than Wales and Northern Ireland?

[Paul1642]

Have you ever considered that the reason we are considered "the poorest country in Northern Europe" is due to the ineffective government we have had in Scotland for the past 15 years?

Were we the poorest country in Northern Europe when the SNP came to power? Genuine question and not a dig.

[JeMeSouviens]

Were we the poorest country in Northern Europe when the SNP came to power? Genuine question and not a dig.

The SNP have not yet come to power and might never.

[Ozyhibby]

Have you ever considered that the reason we are considered "the poorest country in Northern Europe" is due to the ineffective government we have had in Scotland for the past 15 years?

Scotlands economy is controlled by Westminster.


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[Ozyhibby]

Are you sure Scotland is poorer than Wales and Northern Ireland?

Wonder what’s holding them back?[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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[James310]

Were we the poorest country in Northern Europe when the SNP came to power? Genuine question and not a dig.

I wonder what the graphs would look like with Scotland instead of the UK against those countries.

I bet it would paint a different picture.

[He's here!]

We've only started today. 😂

I'd suggest you've never stopped since 2014.

Irrespective of how little you may respect the source, here's a potted guide to the number of times the 'starting gun' has been fired on a new indepdence drive since then:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/firing-blanks/

[Since90+2]

Wonder what’s holding them back?[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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Doesn't really answer the query to your claim.

[Ozyhibby]

Doesn't really answer the query to your claim.

Ok, all three of the poorest countries in Northern Europe are in the UK. Probably just a coincidence.


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[Ozyhibby]

I wonder what the graphs would look like with Scotland instead of the UK against those countries.

I bet it would paint a different picture.

Are you suggesting Scotland is actually wealthier than the UK?


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[James310]

Are you suggesting Scotland is actually wealthier than the UK?


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I am saying in all the graphs why is Scotland never used. Do you know why?

[He's here!]

https://youtu.be/hiGBHbdcnlk

Sounds like Salmond may have a role to play :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

https://youtu.be/hiGBHbdcnlk

Sounds like Salmond may have a role to play?

No it does not and it’s a very weird waste of questioning. I watched it last night and he asked about 5 times about Salmond and I couldn’t help but think that I doubt his viewers, whatever side they are on, care at all about him. I think it’s very clear he will have zero to do with any SNP campaign and there is zero chance NS will be sharing a platform with him. He will of course do some ALBA campaigning but that’s up to him.


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[Ozyhibby]

I am saying in all the graphs why is Scotland never used. Do you know why?

Maybe data not available? These graphs are for comparison so maybe the data all had to be from same source?
Just looked it up and all the data comes from the OECD so it’s possible they don’t have data for Scotland?

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[He's here!]

I find it very amusing that posters on here who claim to be unionists can't give a handful of reasons why Scotland would be better remaining a part of this so called Union 🤔

Feel free to enlighten me if you can and if you present a strong enough case for Scotland remaining, I might buy a union jack or maybe a Boris Johnston mug for my cuppa.

GGTTH

Because for many (myself included) wishing to remain British has got nothing to do with politics and even less to do with Boris Johnson, who won't be around forever and IMHO won't even be PM by the time the next election comes around. There's so much more to being part of the UK than political vitriol...culturally (music, theatre, literature...), geographically, on a sporting front...it's a wonderful melting pot, all of which Scotland has long contributed to. Why is this something to 'free' ourselves form? The crabbit, chip on the shoulder, wha's like us bollocks does my nut in.

[Ozyhibby]

Because for many (myself included) wishing to remain British has got nothing to do with politics and even less to do with Boris Johnson, who won't be around forever and IMHO won't even be PM by the time the next election comes around. There's so much more to being part of the UK than political vitriol...culturally (music, theatre, literature...), geographically, on a sporting front...it's a wonderful melting pot, all of which Scotland has long contributed to. Why is this something to 'free' ourselves form? The crabbit, chip on the shoulder, wha's like us bollocks does my nut in.

That’s as good an argument as any for the union. I never have a problem with that. For some people that’s enough and they don’t mind us being poorer.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Because for many (myself included) wishing to remain British has got nothing to do with politics and even less to do with Boris Johnson, who won't be around forever and IMHO won't even be PM by the time the next election comes around. There's so much more to being part of the UK than political vitriol...culturally (music, theatre, literature...), geographically, on a sporting front...it's a wonderful melting pot, all of which Scotland has long contributed to. Why is this something to 'free' ourselves form? The crabbit, chip on the shoulder, wha's like us bollocks does my nut in.

So has Ireland, both pre and post independence. About the only thing I can think of that would be different on the things you mention is the Olympics.

[Ozyhibby]

I'd suggest you've never stopped since 2014.

Irrespective of how little you may respect the source, here's a potted guide to the number of times the 'starting gun' has been fired on a new indepdence drive since then:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/firing-blanks/

The return of unionists posting Wing links.[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji23]


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[James310]

Maybe data not available? These graphs are for comparison so maybe the data all had to be from same source?
Just looked it up and all the data comes from the OECD so it’s possible they don’t have data for Scotland?

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The data is available for most of the graphs as it's tax and spend, they chose not to use it as it paints a different picture. I get why they do it though.

[Ozyhibby]

The data is available for most of the graphs as it's tax and spend, they chose not to use it as it paints a different picture. I get why they do it though.

From the OECD?
Can you explain to me why they do it?


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[WhileTheChief..]

Because for many (myself included) wishing to remain British has got nothing to do with politics and even less to do with Boris Johnson, who won't be around forever and IMHO won't even be PM by the time the next election comes around. There's so much more to being part of the UK than political vitriol...culturally (music, theatre, literature...), geographically, on a sporting front...it's a wonderful melting pot, all of which Scotland has long contributed to. Why is this something to 'free' ourselves form? The crabbit, chip on the shoulder, wha's like us bollocks does my nut in.

:top marks

[danhibees1875]

That’s as good an argument as any for the union. I never have a problem with that. For some people that’s enough and they don’t mind us being poorer.


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What makes you so sure we wouldn't be poorer if/when independent?

The current state of play would leave us poorer as we benefit from the fiscal transfers, as do most areas, due to being a part of something bigger.

We'd need to change something - a cut to public spending or increase our incomes, either through higher tax rates (like the countries we like to compare to) or/and a higher tax base (I suspect that's the hope but not sure what it's based on?) - unless we want to take on even higher levels of debt.

Putting ourselves into the position of having to trade within the UK-EU trade rules - crap as they are to be in existence in the first place - with 60% of our market (what we currently "export" to rUK) would be starting off with an uphill climb.

[Jones28]

Because for many (myself included) wishing to remain British has got nothing to do with politics and even less to do with Boris Johnson, who won't be around forever and IMHO won't even be PM by the time the next election comes around. There's so much more to being part of the UK than political vitriol...culturally (music, theatre, literature...), geographically, on a sporting front...it's a wonderful melting pot, all of which Scotland has long contributed to. Why is this something to 'free' ourselves form? The crabbit, chip on the shoulder, wha's like us bollocks does my nut in.

If you can ignore the history, the politics and the horrid mess that this government is these are perfectly valid points. You’ll struggle to find someone who doesn’t have a positive thing to say about any of those things.

But in what way would independence hinder any of these things post referendum - with the obvious exception of geography.

FWIW I can’t ignore these things, on the night that our government is flying 7 asylum seekers to Rwanda for processing.

[Jack]

The issue for the SNP is they Sturgeon apart there is very little genuine talent in the party.

I would suggest there's ample talent in the SNPs first team squad and at least they are working for the benefit of the people of Scotland.

In comparison we have the Westminster teams.

Labour constantly arguing who the manager should be never mind who who's in the squad! Their only goals seem to be own goals.

We're now living under the tory 3rd team, a bunch of liars and thieves, likely to be their 4th team in the not too distant future. And whatever squad they're in it for no-one but themselves and their cronies.

Aye, it's a difficult choice right enough.

[James310]

From the OECD?
Can you explain to me why they do it?


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I think I explained why, it paints a different picture.

It's almost as if the SNP don't want to talk about Scotland. Not my words below but a good summary, that I know 99% will disagree with though!

"Every single time any sort of argument is made for leaving the UK, the case isn’t made with reference to the Scottish economy, Scottish trade, Scottish public services, or Scottish jobs. They can’t talk about the Scottish economy because when they open the books, leaving the UK makes no sense. So instead they open their atlas and take us on a fanciful journey.

In order to avoid talking about the real economic damage caused by breaking up the UK, they bundle together a group of nations that aren’t Scotland and base their case on that. They don’t like the Scottish economic numbers they have - their own public finance figures, their own trade figures, their own analysis of the costs of changing currency - so they have to create new ones - ones that aren’t Scottish"

[JeMeSouviens]

What makes you so sure we wouldn't be poorer if/when independent?

The current state of play would leave us poorer as we benefit from the fiscal transfers, as do most areas, due to being a part of something bigger.

We'd need to change something - a cut to public spending or increase our incomes, either through higher tax rates (like the countries we like to compare to) or/and a higher tax base (I suspect that's the hope but not sure what it's based on?) - unless we want to take on even higher levels of debt.

Putting ourselves into the position of having to trade within the UK-EU trade rules - crap as they are to be in existence in the first place - with 60% of our market (what we currently "export" to rUK) would be starting off with an uphill climb.

Good post.

The only thing I'd quibble with is the "part of something bigger". Scotland gets higher public spending than the English regions because of out of date multipliers used in Barnett. If spending really went where it was most needed then areas like the NE of England would get at least the same per-capita spending as we do. Generally, our EU smaller country neighbours earn more and spend more than we do and earn more and spend more than the UK as a whole does (per-capita).

We will therefore definitely be poorer on day 1 of indy. But we are definitely getting year on year poorer staying in Brexit Britain. The key thing as you say would be growing the tax base. For me, that means 2 things are a must:

1. full EU membership
2. much looser immigration policy

We should pitch ourselves as the European alternative to rUK. A chunk of business, investment and talent is looking for a new home away from Brexit UK. A nearby English speaking, culturally similar place would be attractive. Need to go out and get them.

[Ozyhibby]

What makes you so sure we wouldn't be poorer if/when independent?

The current state of play would leave us poorer as we benefit from the fiscal transfers, as do most areas, due to being a part of something bigger.

We'd need to change something - a cut to public spending or increase our incomes, either through higher tax rates (like the countries we like to compare to) or/and a higher tax base (I suspect that's the hope but not sure what it's based on?) - unless we want to take on even higher levels of debt.

Putting ourselves into the position of having to trade within the UK-EU trade rules - crap as they are to be in existence in the first place - with 60% of our market (what we currently "export" to rUK) would be starting off with an uphill climb.

We’re poorer now than we could be. Should we just give up and accept our lot? The status quo is rubbish and the UK plans to make it worse.
You seem to be saying, yes it’s rubbish but trying to be better just looks a bit difficult?
Your argument seems to be that we should stay where we are and live on handouts from London? What an outlook.


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[JeMeSouviens]

If you can ignore the history, the politics and the horrid mess that this government is these are perfectly valid points. You’ll struggle to find someone who doesn’t have a positive thing to say about any of those things.

But in what way would independence hinder any of these things post referendum - with the obvious exception of geography.

FWIW I can’t ignore these things, on the night that our government is flying 7 asylum seekers to Rwanda for processing.

:confused:

Are we expecting post-ref tectonic movement? :greengrin

[James310]

We’re poorer now than we could be. Should we just give up and accept our lot? The status quo is rubbish and the UK plans to make it worse.
You seem to be saying, yes it’s rubbish but trying to be better just looks a bit difficult?
Your argument seems to be that we should stay where we are and live on handouts from London? What an outlook.


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Why is it handouts? We pay our way and taxes so we get our fair share back.

You are being challenged to show some basis on why Scotland won't be poorer after Independence as being poor obviously matters to you, yet you are providing nothing at all other than look at Country X or Y and we can be them.

[Ozyhibby]

Why is it handouts? We pay our way and taxes so we get our fair share back.

You are being challenged to show some basis on why Scotland won't be poorer after Independence as being poor obviously matters to you, yet you are providing nothing at all other than look at Country X or Y and we can be them.

You accept we are poorer for being part of the UK then?


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[danhibees1875]

Good post.

The only thing I'd quibble with is the "part of something bigger". Scotland gets higher public spending than the English regions because of out of date multipliers used in Barnett. If spending really went where it was most needed then areas like the NE of England would get at least the same per-capita spending as we do. Generally, our EU smaller country neighbours earn more and spend more than we do and earn more and spend more than the UK as a whole does (per-capita).

We will therefore definitely be poorer on day 1 of indy. But we are definitely getting year on year poorer staying in Brexit Britain. The key thing as you say would be growing the tax base. For me, that means 2 things are a must:

1. full EU membership
2. much looser immigration policy

We should pitch ourselves as the European alternative to rUK. A chunk of business, investment and talent is looking for a new home away from Brexit UK. A nearby English speaking, culturally similar place would be attractive. Need to go out and get them.

Do the out of date multipliers not just exaggerate/increase the benefit that would still exist? I agree though that it plays a part in the overall position we find ourselves in and I should have referenced it.

If we leave then we sure as hell better at least get EU membership in return. :greengrin

European alternative sounds good on paper for sure, how it would work in practice though is a mystery. I'm not sure we could reliably estimate how many businesses are actively looking to relocate but just haven't yet and whether it would outweigh those who would then wish to leave Scotland. I suspect arguements for both are exaggerated, but at least the Yes movement have some retort in that argument now that wasn't there in 2014.

[Mon Dieu4]

Why is it handouts? We pay our way and taxes so we get our fair share back.

You are being challenged to show some basis on why Scotland won't be poorer after Independence as being poor obviously matters to you, yet you are providing nothing at all other than look at Country X or Y and we can be them.

Show me evidence that Scotland would be worse off and don't bother trying to use the perceived deficit, the UK runs at a deficit currently but that's always ignored

[danhibees1875]

We’re poorer now than we could be. Should we just give up and accept our lot? The status quo is rubbish and the UK plans to make it worse.
You seem to be saying, yes it’s rubbish but trying to be better just looks a bit difficult?
Your argument seems to be that we should stay where we are and live on handouts from London? What an outlook.


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Equally, we're richer now than we could be.

I'm not saying it's rubbish. It's not perfect - but overall it's pretty darn good.

FWIW - Within that goodness I count having the current Scotgov in place with the powers they do have.

The handouts patter isn't how I feel either. There's more than one way to look at how the fiscal transfers work.

[danhibees1875]

Show me evidence that Scotland would be worse off and don't bother trying to use the perceived deficit, the UK runs at a deficit currently but that's always ignored

The UK deficit shouldn't be ignored, but the delta between that and the Scottish one should be considered the area that needs to be explained - what gives way to close that gap.

The answer, or a reasonable possibility, might show up with these coming documents.

[Ozyhibby]

It appears that the position of those against independence is that yes, we are poorer than all the local independent countries but it’s possible that Scotland just isn’t capable of becoming as rich as those countries and therefore we should just accept our lot?


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[Mcbizz1998]

Hurry up and give us a referendum!

I can’t wait for the tears and snotters when they lose again and to see the back of Sturgeon for good!

[Moulin Yarns]

Because for many (myself included) wishing to remain British has got nothing to do with politics and even less to do with Boris Johnson, who won't be around forever and IMHO won't even be PM by the time the next election comes around. There's so much more to being part of the UK than political vitriol...culturally (music, theatre, literature...), geographically, on a sporting front...it's a wonderful melting pot, all of which Scotland has long contributed to. Why is this something to 'free' ourselves form? The crabbit, chip on the shoulder, wha's like us bollocks does my nut in.

Don't you want to look further, to europe for all those things?