Scottish Independence

[Moulin Yarns]

I voted for Brexit.


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Well, I hope you're happy now 😉

[archie]

Hunt already talking about softening those trade barriers?
Most of our trade with UK is in services so not affected by any border issues.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIs this a joke?

[ronaldo7]

Surprised at the 40% figure, I thought it would have been closer to zero!

I don't think I've ever read a post from an SNP or Indy supporter on here in favour of Brexit. Why do we never hear the FM talk about these people? It's always made out that it's the bad Tories down south inflicting stuff on us.

Your points about little boxes is so true. It's not just on here though, it's everywhere.

Everyone's got to be labelled as something so you know how to treat them. Doesn't matter what you actually think, that's already been decided on your behalf depending on the box you've been put in.

I remember being in a conversation on here many moons ago. I was labelled a Nat, by someone who voted differently after saying I'd voted for independence.

Boxes eh.

[grunt]

What's the source of this?
Paul Kavanagh

[grunt]

I voted for Brexit.
QED! :na na:

[archie]

Where's the evidence for this?The 'probably' relates to the fact that some political analysts have ascribed the move in these terms. Given the ferocious opposition to the EU in the SNP (they campaigned against entry in the previous referendum) it was quite a shift to move to independence in Europe. The policy shift was led by Jim Sillars. It was a move to address the separatist claim against the SNP, which had been reinforced by the previous EU stance. It also provided reassurance about issues such as hard boreders and freedom of movement. But the SNP remained suspicious of the EU, particularly over the issue of the Common Fisheries Policy. This probably reflects the changing make up of SNP power bases. Until recently support tended to be in rural areas, so there was a stronger emphasis on agriculture and fishing. Something that is now largely ignored.

Given the previous opposition to the EU by the SNP, coupled by the fact that the architect of the 'independence in Europe' policy is a committed Brexiteer, it is reasonable to conclude that this was a decision taken for tactical reasons, rather than any change of principle. Many key SNP members from that time remained opposed. The SNP campaigned with the Tories in 2007 for a referendum on the terms of the EU treaty, again linked to concerns about the Common Fisheries Policy. So the absolute commitment to all aspects of the EU is a relatively recent phenomonen.

[Ozyhibby]

QED! :na na:

Certainly feels like it.[emoji23]


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[James310]

Hunt already talking about softening those trade barriers?
Most of our trade with UK is in services so not affected by any border issues.


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You really are in full on Scexiteer mode now, using all the same arguments that Brexiteers used.

[Ozyhibby]

You really are in full on Scexiteer mode now, using all the same arguments that Brexiteers used.

I’m in favour of Scotland being in the EU.


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[marinello59]

Paul Kavanagh

Wee Ginger Dug? I wasn’t too far off with McGlashan then. :greengrin

[James310]

I’m in favour of Scotland being in the EU.


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But in favour of Scotland putting up barriers with our biggest trading partner and employing the same arguments Brexiteers used for putting up barriers with the UKs biggest trading partner. 😂

[James310]

Wee Ginger Dug? I wasn’t too far off with McGlashan then. :greengrin

Someone calls themselves "wee ginger dug", for real?

[Jack]

Perhaps many of the SNP voters who voted for Brexit thought if they 'won' it would hasten another independence referendum.

[CropleyWasGod]

Someone calls themselves "wee ginger dug", for real?

Gianni Infantino?

[grunt]

Someone calls themselves "wee ginger dug", for real?That will never do. In the Union of British People no silly names will be allowed. Suck on that, separatists.

(Also, this posted by someone who calls himself James310).

[James310]

That will never do. In the Union of British People no silly names will be allowed. Suck on that, separatists.

(Also, this posted by someone who calls himself James310).

Woof woof.

[ronaldo7]

That will never do. In the Union of British People no silly names will be allowed. Suck on that, separatists.

(Also, this posted by someone who calls himself James310).

An £80 billion raid on the oil and gas sector, and all they can worry about is a man who called his blog after his wee dug. 😂

[archie]

An £80 billion raid on the oil and gas sector, and all they can worry about is a man who called his blog after his wee dug. 😂So is the windfall tax a good thing?

[ronaldo7]

So is the windfall tax a good thing?

It would probably help Scotland's "deficit" rather than lining the pockets of Tories.

[archie]

It would probably help Scotland's "deficit" rather than lining the pockets of Tories.I don't understand the point.

[He's here!]

I voted for Brexit.


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That's an interesting admission. You seem convinced Brexit was an independence game-changer after Scotland were (supposedly) 'dragged out of Europe' yet you were in favour of leaving the EU?

[James310]

That's an interesting admission. You seem convinced Brexit was an independence game-changer after Scotland were (supposedly) 'dragged out of Europe' yet you were in favour of leaving the EU?

I assumed he was joking?

[archie]

Perhaps many of the SNP voters who voted for Brexit thought if they 'won' it would hasten another independence referendum.That's really interesting Jack. I hadn't considered that SNP voters would deliberately vote to take the UK out of the EU (in the face of the apparent position of the SNP leadership) as a move to force a referendum. It puts the material change proposition in a new light. Do you think it was planned that way?

[Moulin Yarns]

That's really interesting Jack. I hadn't considered that SNP voters would deliberately vote to take the UK out of the EU (in the face of the apparent position of the SNP leadership) as a move to force a referendum. It puts the material change proposition in a new light. Do you think it was planned that way?

1.3million majority for leave, I don't think the 36% of SNP members will have made that big a difference. 😂

[greenginger]

1.3million majority for leave, I don't think the 36% of SNP members will have made that big a difference. 😂

It would only taken 650,000 to vote remain rather than leave to change the result.

[Just Alf]

Perhaps many of the SNP voters who voted for Brexit thought if they 'won' it would hasten another independence referendum.2 of the boys I occasionally have a pint with did exactly that, ones now a member of Alba.

[Moulin Yarns]

It would only taken 650,000 to vote remain rather than leave to change the result.

Does the SNP have 650,000 members? 🤔

[Moulin Yarns]

I should have asked John swinney and rosanna cunningham today in Birnam if they voted leave to swing the vote. 😉

[greenginger]

I
Does the SNP have 650,000 members? 🤔

The stat was 36% of SNP voters NOT members .

Does the SNP have 650,000 voters ?

Surely Brexit wasn’t SNP voters fault all along. :greengrin

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fh7-a4AXoAApejJ?format=png&name=small

[degenerated]

I

The stat was 36% of SNP voters NOT members .

Does the SNP have 650,000 voters ?

Surely Brexit wasn’t SNP voters fault all along. :greengrinNot unless there are about 2 million SNP voters.

A far bigger proportion of labour, conservative and lib Dems voters voted in 2014 to ensure Scotland got dragged out of EU.

[Moulin Yarns]

I

The stat was 36% of SNP voters NOT members .

Does the SNP have 650,000 voters ?

Surely Brexit wasn’t SNP voters fault all along. :greengrin

It seems like it if you believe some of the posts today. 🤔

[grunt]

The stat was 36% of SNP voters NOT members .
I take it we all know that the 36% figure being bandied about is based on an interpretation of a poll of about 1300 people. I looked at the report referenced in the Herald piece and it doesn't even mention SNP - it seems to be an interpretation of "other". The poll asked if the leave voters were Labour, Tory or other.

*I could be wrong, but that's my reading of it.

[Jack]

2 of the boys I occasionally have a pint with did exactly that, ones now a member of Alba.

To be honest I considered it. I seem to recall a lot of chat at the time suggesting that a Brexit win would be the substantive change that would justify a second Scottish independence vote. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if big numbers of more hardened independence voters decided short term pain to achieve a longer term aim.

[marinello59]

Not unless there are about 2 million SNP voters.

A far bigger proportion of labour, conservative and lib Dems voters voted in 2014 to ensure Scotland got dragged out of EU.

What proportion from each party was there? I’d be interested in the figures.

[marinello59]

To be honest I considered it. I seem to recall a lot of chat at the time suggesting that a Brexit win would be the substantive change that would justify a second Scottish independence vote. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if big numbers of more hardened independence voters decided short term pain to achieve a longer term aim.

Short term pain? Not for the rest of the UK, nearly half of whom voted Remain. I really hope this didn’t happen in large numbers, it would hardly be a progressive act or a manifestation of anything you could claim to be civic nationalism.
My gut feeling is very few people voted for Brexit as a tactic to gain Independence, they voted for Brexit because they believed in it.

[The Tubs]

I don't understand the point.

It's fairly obvious that he's referring to the numerous cases of conservative corruption over the last few years.

[The Tubs]

Short term pain? Not for the rest of the UK, nearly half of whom voted Remain. I really hope this didn’t happen in large numbers, it would hardly be a progressive act or a manifestation of anything you could claim to be civic nationalism.
My gut feeling is very few people voted for Brexit as a tactic to gain Independence, they voted for Brexit because they believed in it.

Someone here pointed out recently that many unions supported Brexit. That probably influenced some. Were folk like Tommy Sheridan in favour of leaving? That could have been an influence too.

Bizarre that they'd want to leave the tories an even freer hand to **** the UK over.

[marinello59]

Someone here pointed out recently that many unions supported Brexit. That probably influenced some. Were folk like Tommy Sheridan in favour of leaving? That could have been an influence too.

Bizarre that they'd want to leave the tories an even freer hand to **** the UK over.

To be fair zero hours contracts, the erosion of Union rights and the gig economy arrived and flourished whilst we were EU members. The whole point of the EU is to protect the status quo enjoyed by Governments, big business and bankers , it’s not the benign workers utopia some would portray it as. Remember the Tory party were as split as the rest of the country on this. Cameron thought the referendum would silence the critics of the EU once and for all. It shows what happens when you take a result for granted.
Many on the left had good reason to distrust it. I think they were wrong, we got much more from membership than we gave up but the reasons they had for supporting Brexit were a well thought out stance.

I need to stop posting on here. I hate when Hibs aren’t playing.

[The Tubs]

To be fair zero hours contracts, the erosion of Union rights and the gig economy arrived and flourished whilst we were EU members. The whole point of the EU is to protect the status quo enjoyed by Governments, big business and bankers , it’s not the benign workers utopia some would portray it as. Remember the Tory party were as split as the rest of the country on this. Cameron thought the referendum would silence the critics of the EU once and for all. It shows what happens when you take a result for granted.
Many on the left had good reason to distrust it. I think they were wrong, we got much more from membership than we gave up but the reasons they had for supporting Brexit were a well thought out stance.

I wouldn't say it is a utopia either and I'd agree with you. I'd even say Farage was right that the EU has problems with democracy — not that he actually ever cared about trying to reform it. Nevertheless, Brexit allowed the Conservatives to set the bar even lower on all of the things you mentioned. This was pretty much inevitable in the near one-party state that is the UK.

[marinello59]

I wouldn't say it is a utopia either and I'd agree with you. I'd even say Farage was right that the EU has problems with democracy — not that he actually ever cared about trying to reform it. Nevertheless, Brexit allowed the Conservatives to set the bar even lower on all of the things you mentioned. This was pretty much inevitable in the near one-party state that is the UK.

Farahe. I don’t think I will ever see that name without getting angry. :greengrin
I agree, Brexit allowed the nasty party to do what they want. It really didn’t have to be that way. In hindsight rather than trying to reverse the vote if the remain side had United behind a soft Brexit we would not be in quite so bad a place now. It wouldn’t have been ideal but we could have been enjoying a Norwegian style arrangement rather than the self imposed isolation we have now.

[Keith_M]

To be fair zero hours contracts, the erosion of Union rights and the gig economy arrived and flourished whilst we were EU members. The whole point of the EU is to protect the status quo enjoyed by Governments, big business and bankers , it’s not the benign workers utopia some would portray it as. Remember the Tory party were as split as the rest of the country on this. Cameron thought the referendum would silence the critics of the EU once and for all. It shows what happens when you take a result for granted.
Many on the left had good reason to distrust it. I think they were wrong, we got much more from membership than we gave up but the reasons they had for supporting Brexit were a well thought out stance.

I need to stop posting on here. I hate when Hibs aren’t playing.


The Thatcher era Tories laid the groundwork for that by demanding (and being granted) exemptions to some of the rules and regulations adhered to elsewhere.

I totally agree that that are many flaws with the EU but I'd rather be a member and suffer those flaws than have the Tory party achieve their aim of low (or no) regulations on workers rights, etc.


The way some of our esteemed posters are now trying to put the blame for Brexit on the SNP and it's supporters is laughable.

[marinello59]

The Thatcher era Tories laid the groundwork for that by demanding (and being granted) exemptions to some of the rules and regulations adhered to elsewhere.

I totally agree that that are many flaws with the EU but I'd rather be a member and suffer those flaws than have the Tory party achieve their aim of low (or no) regulations on workers rights, etc.


The way some of our esteemed posters are now trying to put the blame for Brexit on the SNP and it's supporters is laughable.

I think there an equal amount of SNP supporters here claiming Indy supporters voted for Brexit to further their cause. :greengrin

[degenerated]

What proportion from each party was there? I’d be interested in the figures.I think it would be fairly safe to say that 90 plus percent of Tories in Scotland voted that way. The media at the time reported 30% of labour supporters were in favour of Scotland being able to make these sort of decisions ourselves, so 70% would seem to be about right. I care less than I know about the lib Dems :greengrin

[archie]

I think there an equal amount of SNP supporters here claiming Indy supporters voted for Brexit to further their cause. :greengrin

TBH I'm sceptical that there was a significant campaign to vote for Brexit to bring about an independence referendum. I think it's as likely emblematic of the SNP older hostility to the EU.

[Stairway 2 7]

TBH I'm sceptical that there was a significant campaign to vote for Brexit to bring about an independence referendum. I think it's as likely emblematic of the SNP older hostility to the EU.

Not a chance was it a significant number

[marinello59]

TBH I'm sceptical that there was a significant campaign to vote for Brexit to bring about an independence referendum. I think it's as likely emblematic of the SNP older hostility to the EU.

I said the same earlier on the thread. People voted for Brexit because they wanted Brexit.

[WhileTheChief..]

Nobody is trying to 'blame' Brexit on SNP voters.There's not a single post suggesting it but already that's the way the thread is going.

There was a little bit of surprise at the number of SNP voters who wanted Brexit and we're discussing that. No finger pointing or blame anywhere.

You would have thought it would be mentioned now and again though. People on here regularly ask those who voted to leave, why. Maybe ask some fellow SNP supporters and get their thoughts?

And if you add in these voters to the people who usually vote Labour or Conservative, that's a bug chunk of the population that the Scot Gov still has an obligation to serve instead of despise.

[Stairway 2 7]

A lot of working class vote snp. Working class were more likely to vote Brexit, its not surprising.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/518395/brexit-votes-by-social-class/
Remain Brexit
Lower Working-Class (DE) 36% 64%
Upper Working-Class (C2) 36% 64%
Lower Middle-Class (C1) 51% 49%
Upper Middle-Class (AB) 57% 43%

[marinello59]

Nobody is trying to 'blame' Brexit on SNP voters.There's not a single post suggesting it but already that's the way the thread is going.

There was a little bit of surprise at the number of SNP voters who wanted Brexit and we're discussing that. No finger pointing or blame anywhere.

You would have thought it would be mentioned now and again though. People on here regularly ask those who voted to leave, why. Maybe ask some fellow SNP supporters and get their thoughts?

And if you add in these voters to the people who usually vote Labour or Conservative, that's a bug chunk of the population that the Scot Gov still has an obligation to serve instead of despise.

:agree:

[Glory Lurker]

I said the same earlier on the thread. People voted for Brexit because they wanted Brexit.

Yes, they wanted Brexit. You missed the because...

They were adherents to a left wing ideology that froze in 1972

They didn't like foreigners meddling

They bizarrely thought it would improve treatment of animals on their way to slaughter (maybe niche Leith Greens, in fairness).



The Brexit vote was anti- there was nothing positive about it.

[Glory Lurker]

A lot of working class vote snp. Working class were more likely to vote Brexit, its not surprising.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/518395/brexit-votes-by-social-class/
Remain Brexit
Lower Working-Class (DE) 36% 64%
Upper Working-Class (C2) 36% 64%
Lower Middle-Class (C1) 51% 49%
Upper Middle-Class (AB) 57% 43%

Got any Scottish stats?

[Stairway 2 7]

Got any Scottish stats?

Don't think it separates but you'd assume it goes with the other trends. Generally much more younger voters voted remain and the opposite for older. The more educated and the more likely to vote remain. White vote was weighted to leave, bame weighted to remain

[Ozyhibby]

Got any Scottish stats?

No but the more Scottish you were, the more likely you were to vote remain.[emoji6][emoji23]


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[He's here!]

I

The stat was 36% of SNP voters NOT members .

Does the SNP have 650,000 voters ?

Surely Brexit wasn’t SNP voters fault all along. :greengrin

A number of SNP MSPs also voted for Brexit:

Former cabinet secretary Alex Neil reveals 'a number' of SNP MSPs voted for Brexit (holyrood.com) (https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,former-cabinet-secretary-alex-neil-reveals-a-number-of-snp-msps-voted-for-brexit_12624.htm)

[ronaldo7]

I don't understand the point.

Pretty straight forward mate. I'd rather the funds from our oil and gas was used to help those here, rather than Tories in the square mile.

[grunt]

A number of SNP MSPs also voted for Brexit:

Former cabinet secretary Alex Neil reveals 'a number' of SNP MSPs voted for Brexit (holyrood.com) (https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,former-cabinet-secretary-alex-neil-reveals-a-number-of-snp-msps-voted-for-brexit_12624.htm)Neil is the only SNP MSP to admit to it, and in his interview there he shows that he doesn't understand the EU. Another stupid brexiter.

I wonder if he'd still vote to leave now.

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fh9RWwRX0AAMC1-?format=jpg&name=medium

[archie]

Pretty straight forward mate. I'd rather the funds from our oil and gas was used to help those here, rather than Tories in the square mile.
OK I understand now. Windfall taxes from companies operating in England, Wales and NI should be shared across all of the UK, but windfall taxes from companies operating I Scotland should only apply to Scotland. Was that why the SNP initially opposed windfall taxes?

[grunt]

OK I understand now. Windfall taxes from companies operating in England, Wales and NI should be shared across all of the UK, but windfall taxes from companies operating I Scotland should only apply to Scotland. Was that why the SNP initially opposed windfall taxes?
No, I don't think you do understand.

[archie]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fh9RWwRX0AAMC1-?format=jpg&name=mediumSo the same point as Ronaldo 7 makes. Windfall taxes raised from companies in NI, Wales and England should be shared across the UK while windfall taxes from companies operating in Scotland should stay in Scotland.

[archie]

No, I don't think you do understand.Please explain.

[ronaldo7]

OK I understand now. Windfall taxes from companies operating in England, Wales and NI should be shared across all of the UK, but windfall taxes from companies operating I Scotland should only apply to Scotland. Was that why the SNP initially opposed windfall taxes?

This is a thread on Scottish independence. I know it taken a few twists and turns, but an independent Scotland wouldn't be sharing the resources from our areas of the North Sea with anyone. I thought that was elementary.

[ronaldo7]

So the same point as Ronaldo 7 makes. Windfall taxes raised from companies in NI, Wales and England should be shared across the UK while windfall taxes from companies operating in Scotland should stay in Scotland.

I never made that point. You did. Your posts are generally well resourced, so please don't put words in my mouth.

[Just Alf]

OK I understand now. Windfall taxes from companies operating in England, Wales and NI should be shared across all of the UK, but windfall taxes from companies operating I Scotland should only apply to Scotland. Was that why the SNP initially opposed windfall taxes?Being a bit selective there? (Or only getting news from a single biased source?)

The SNP were. Indeed againt a windfall tax on oil & gas extraction companies UNLESS similar was also implemented across all the other companies that also are making huge unexpected profits.

[archie]

This is a thread on Scottish independence. I know it taken a few twists and turns, but an independent Scotland wouldn't be sharing the resources from our areas of the North Sea with anyone. I thought that was elementary.OK. Your point is really just a rehash of 'it's Scotland's oil' and doesn't reflect the current constitutional arrangements.

[ronaldo7]

OK. Your point is really just a rehash of 'it's Scotland's oil' and doesn't reflect the current constitutional arrangements.

Is it Norway's oil? Or does it get shared with England, Wales and NI.

The point of the thread is Scottish independence. That's where the oil funds will go.

[archie]

Being a bit selective there? (Or only getting news from a single biased source?)

The SNP were. Indeed againt a windfall tax on oil & gas extraction companies UNLESS similar was also implemented across all the other companies that also are making huge unexpected profits.At the time the argument was that it impacted disproportionately on the NE of Scotland. The position changed pretty quickly though.

[archie]

Is it Norway's oil? Or does it get shared with England, Wales and NI.

The point of the thread is Scottish independence. That's where the oil funds will go.
Given Norway isn't part of the UK...

[ronaldo7]

Given Norway isn't part of the UK...

It looks like you've now got it.

Now care to remove your post quoting me saying something I didn't. Cheers.

[Keith_M]

I see the latest 'evidence' of the SNP being the ones who forced through Brexit is that 50 years ago, some of those in charge at the time were in favour of leaving.


Yes, fifty years ago.


I'm just wondering what's coming up next, the SNP support the IRA?

:rolleyes:

[archie]

It looks like you've now got it.

Now care to remove your post quoting me saying something I didn't. Cheers.Well it was implicit in what you said. The reason I didn't assume it was post independence was that many of the SNP attacks on the windfall tax were on the basis that much of oil and gas activity was based in Scotland. This is from the Daily Record but has direct quotes from Kirsty Blackman. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-mp-kirsty-blackman-claims-27095077

[Ozyhibby]

So the same point as Ronaldo 7 makes. Windfall taxes raised from companies in NI, Wales and England should be shared across the UK while windfall taxes from companies operating in Scotland should stay in Scotland.

What windfall taxes are you talking about?


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[archie]

I see the latest 'evidence' of the SNP being the ones who forced through Brexit is that 50 years ago, some of those in charge at the time were in favour of leaving.


Yes, fifty years ago.


I'm just wondering what's coming up next, the SNP support the IRA?

:rolleyes:Not quite. The point was that, far from being dewy eyed about the EU, the SNP has at times been actively hostile. They opposed UK entry in 1975. As recently as 2007 they joined with the Tories to demand a referendum on EU terms. In the light of the current position I think that is worthy of comment. Maybe you would rather it wasn't brought up.

[archie]

What windfall taxes are you talking about?


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[ronaldo7]

Well it was implicit in what you said. The reason I didn't assume it was post independence was that many of the SNP attacks on the windfall tax were on the basis that much of oil and gas activity was based in Scotland. This is from the Daily Record but has direct quotes from Kirsty Blackman. https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-mp-kirsty-blackman-claims-27095077

It's not what I said. You said it. I've asked twice now. Over to you.

[He's here!]

Not quite. The point was that, far from being dewy eyed about the EU, the SNP has at times been actively hostile. They opposed UK entry in 1975. As recently as 2007 they joined with the Tories to demand a referendum on EU terms. In the light of the current position I think that is worthy of comment. Maybe you would rather it wasn't brought up.

Shades of the Tartan Tories...

[James310]

Nationalism and socialism are not compatible, you can't claim to be progressive and different when that compassion means you don't care a jot about the vulnerable and less well of a few miles down the road. Nationalism 101.

If a company based solely in England made huge profits and someone said the profits should only distributed to the vulnerable in England there would be outrage.

[grunt]

Nationalism and socialism are not compatible, you can't claim to be progressive and different when that compassion means you don't care a jot about the vulnerable and less well of a few miles down the road. Nationalism 101.

If a company based solely in England made huge profits and someone said the profits should only distributed to the vulnerable in England there would be outrage.
You think there'd be outrage in an independent Scotland? :confused:

[archie]

It looks like you've now got it.

Now care to remove your post quoting me saying something I didn't. Cheers.This really isn't that important, but what you said was: 'I'd rather the funds from our oil and gas was used to help those here, rather than Tories in the square mile.' Given you didn't contextualise this by saying this only applied after independence and that it reflected an SNP line from earlier this year, I think it was a reasonable conclusion. Added to Grunt's meme which appeared to be arguing (again without context) that money raised in Scotland should stay in Scotland, it looked like you shared the same view. Happy to say that I agree with your position that windfall taxes should be used across the UK.

[James310]

You think there'd be outrage in an independent Scotland? :confused:

I am obviously talking about the current set up.

It's fine, nationalism is about that. I get it.

[grunt]

This really isn't that important, but what you said was: 'I'd rather the funds from our oil and gas was used to help those here, rather than Tories in the square mile.' Given you didn't contextualise this by saying this only applied after independence and that it reflected an SNP line from earlier this year, I think it was a reasonable conclusion. Added to Grunt's meme which appeared to be arguing (again without context) that money raised in Scotland should stay in Scotland, it looked like you shared the same view. Happy to say that I agree with your position that windfall taxes should be used across the UK.
This. Thread. Is. About. Scottish. Independence........

[James310]

So it wasn't clear it was when Scotland was Independent.

[grunt]

I am obviously talking about the current set up.

It's fine, nationalism is about that. I get it.
Whereas I am obviously NOT talking about the current setup.

[James310]

Whereas I am obviously NOT talking about the current setup.

That wasn't particularly clear.

I don't think anyone would argue if Scotland was Independent the tax on profits of companies based in Scotland would stay in Scotland. Who would think different?

[archie]

This. Thread. Is. About. Scottish. Independence........Yes, but in practice that's a very narrow interpretation given the wide range of topics it strays into. Your oil and gas windfall tax example could be a position you think should apply now. Now as it turns out you meant post independence, but it wasn't clear.

[Santa Cruz]

Whereas I am obviously NOT talking about the current setup.

Your meme posted is in relation to the current set up, so wasn't obvious to me either.

[ronaldo7]

This really isn't that important, but what you said was: 'I'd rather the funds from our oil and gas was used to help those here, rather than Tories in the square mile.' Given you didn't contextualise this by saying this only applied after independence and that it reflected an SNP line from earlier this year, I think it was a reasonable conclusion. Added to Grunt's meme which appeared to be arguing (again without context) that money raised in Scotland should stay in Scotland, it looked like you shared the same view. Happy to say that I agree with your position that windfall taxes should be used across the UK.

It may not be important to you, it is to me. The quote where you quote me as saying something, which isn't true, has already been used. Given the way this site works, I've no doubt it'll be used again sometime in the future.

Common courtesy says you'll remove/edit it.

[archie]

It may not be important to you, it is to me. The quote where you quote me as saying something, which isn't true, has already been used. Given the way this site works, I've no doubt it'll be used again sometime in the future.

Common courtesy says you'll remove/edit it.
I'm happy to acknowledge what you meant to say.

[ronaldo7]

I'm happy to acknowledge what you meant to say.

And I'm happy to acknowledge that you interpreted what I said wrongly.

The edit?

[grunt]

Your meme posted is in relation to the current set up, so wasn't obvious to me either.It was designed to make a point. I think it makes it quite well.

[archie]

And I'm happy to acknowledge that you interpreted what I said wrongly.

The edit?
The edit was a typo - I started the sentence differently and didn't delete a word.

[J-C]

OK I understand now. Windfall taxes from companies operating in England, Wales and NI should be shared across all of the UK, but windfall taxes from companies operating I Scotland should only apply to Scotland. Was that why the SNP initially opposed windfall taxes?


Tell me what windfall taxes are coming from these countries? We have around 80% of the natural resources in Scotland but don't benefit enough from them.

[archie]

Tell me what windfall taxes are coming from these countries? We have around 80% of the natural resources in Scotland but don't benefit enough from them.I think you are making the same point as Ronaldo and Grunt? If independent Scotland would benefit exclusively from these taxes.

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-news-agents/id1640878689?i=1000586730742

Great podcast on the state of the UK. There is a different way of doing things and the rest of Europe is showing us how.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

I see the latest 'evidence' of the SNP being the ones who forced through Brexit is that 50 years ago, some of those in charge at the time were in favour of leaving.


Yes, fifty years ago.


I'm just wondering what's coming up next, the SNP support the IRA?

:rolleyes:

Where are all these posts on here saying that the SNP forced through Brexit? I can’t keep up, perhaps quoting the posts you have taken issue with would help an old man like me out. :greengrin

[Hibs90]

You really are in full on Scexiteer mode now, using all the same arguments that Brexiteers used.


That wasn't particularly clear.

I don't think anyone would argue if Scotland was Independent the tax on profits of companies based in Scotland would stay in Scotland. Who would think different?

I think the fact you still haven't answered my question, proves my point and then some.

[James310]

I think the fact you still haven't answered my question, proves my point and then some.

👍 (Whatever it was)

[Hibs4185]

I only read a couple of posts regarding the SNP opposing European membership from 50 years ago. My dad has voted SNP all his life, he practically frog marched me into the booth to vote SNP as well.

Whilst I do vote SNP, I’m beginning to disagree with a lot of what they say and do.

What we have to remember is that if Scotland was independent we would have the full range of parties to vote for and not just the SNP.

Prime expample, there might be people with conservative views on monetary policy who vote for independence. In an independent Scotland, a new Scottish Conservative party might thrive.

I think the independence argument gets lots by focusing purely on what the SNP is saying and doing regarding their own policies.

Just because the SNP support rejoining Europe, it doesn’t mean to should happen. I’d imagine we would have a referendum and inclement the outcome (which I’d imagine would be a significant majority for joining)

[J-C]

I think you are making the same point as Ronaldo and Grunt? If independent Scotland would benefit exclusively from these taxes.


And the reason many people want independence, let Scotland get the full benefit from these massive taxes and not just to prop up London City stock exchange.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Commission set to release first findings on case for Welsh indy | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23137013.commission-set-release-first-findings-case-welsh-indy/?fbclid=IwAR1JtyDsTiGdDjSSZadbft4quCT6Z3nJbBc_XFwg xGQkHbMW2_zVMN_uNFc)


interesting what the outcome of this will be :agree: the very best of luck with that

and well done Welsh Labour The group, which was set up by the Labour (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/labour/) Welsh government, has been looking at all options for the constitution – such as independence, federalism and “devo-max” – since it met for the first time in November last year.


unlike the Blis we have here, the Tory enablers :agree:
at least the Welsh have a REAL Labour party:aok:

[Jones28]

I only read a couple of posts regarding the SNP opposing European membership from 50 years ago. My dad has voted SNP all his life, he practically frog marched me into the booth to vote SNP as well.

Whilst I do vote SNP, I’m beginning to disagree with a lot of what they say and do.

What we have to remember is that if Scotland was independent we would have the full range of parties to vote for and not just the SNP.

Prime expample, there might be people with conservative views on monetary policy who vote for independence. In an independent Scotland, a new Scottish Conservative party might thrive.

I think the independence argument gets lots by focusing purely on what the SNP is saying and doing regarding their own policies.

Just because the SNP support rejoining Europe, it doesn’t mean to should happen. I’d imagine we would have a referendum and inclement the outcome (which I’d imagine would be a significant majority for joining)

For me and many others the SNP are a vehicle for independence. Post Indy they fall away into obscurity and I vote for a proper, old fashioned Labour Party.

[grunt]

For me and many others the SNP are a vehicle for independence. Post Indy they fall away into obscurity and I vote for a proper, old fashioned Labour Party.
Any suggestions as to who might lead this old fashioned Scottish Labour Party?

[Jack]

Any suggestions as to who might lead this old fashioned Scottish Labour Party?

I don't agree with the many who think the SNP will collapse when we're independent. I do think many politicians, from both Parliaments, will chop and change about a bit as things settle down in the early years.

If she was to change parties I think Mhairi Black would be a shoe in to lead an post independence Labour Party if she wanted it.

[Skol]

For me and many others the SNP are a vehicle for independence. Post Indy they fall away into obscurity and I vote for a proper, old fashioned Labour Party.

This is something I really struggle with. Vote for the snp so we can vote them out and get someone else in who don’t want what the snp are pushing for.

[Smartie]

This is something I really struggle with. Vote for the snp so we can vote them out and get someone else in who don’t want what the snp are pushing for.

It's something I don't struggle with at all. If anything, I struggle with the SNP hanging around. I mean - what's the point?

The SNP are an odd bunch of folk who believe in different things but who agree on one thing.

If they succeeded in delivering independence then ceased to exist then it's up to Scotland to then choose what direction they want to go in. As I understand it, more than anything, that is (or should be) what the SNP exist to do.

In all likelihood Scotland would vote for a left leaning party, again because there isn't really any point in being independent if we're going to vote in far right English nationalists like the governments our next door neighbours choose for us.

That may not be the case forever and it might be that Scotland and England would become more closely aligned politically over time, as Scotland became more prosperous but ultimately I don't think the idea that Scotland has the choice to manage it's own destiny and the way that it adapts to change to be a bad thing.

Obviously I think the SNP would need to hang around and manage a changeover but I can't see any benefit in the SNP continuing to exist post independence.

[ronaldo7]

It's something I don't struggle with at all. If anything, I struggle with the SNP hanging around. I mean - what's the point?

The SNP are an odd bunch of folk who believe in different things but who agree on one thing.

If they succeeded in delivering independence then ceased to exist then it's up to Scotland to then choose what direction they want to go in. As I understand it, more than anything, that is (or should be) what the SNP exist to do.

In all likelihood Scotland would vote for a left leaning party, again because there isn't really any point in being independent if we're going to vote in far right English nationalists like the governments our next door neighbours choose for us.

That may not be the case forever and it might be that Scotland and England would become more closely aligned politically over time, as Scotland became more prosperous but ultimately I don't think the idea that Scotland has the choice to manage it's own destiny and the way that it adapts to change to be a bad thing.

Obviously I think the SNP would need to hang around and manage a changeover but I can't see any benefit in the SNP continuing to exist post independence.

I don't see the SNP disbanding any time soon. Even after Independence, there will have to be a party that looks after Scotland's needs. I wouldn't trust any of the British parties to look after our interests. Imagine the negotiations with Annie Wells at the table.

The three parties registered in England would have to disband and start anew. They may draw some from the SNP but not in the first 10 years imo

Have a look at how Sinn Fein are doing in Ireland. Most would have said they'd disband in the 1920's but they're still going strong.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't see the SNP disbanding any time soon. Even after Independence, there will have to be a party that looks after Scotland's needs. I wouldn't trust any of the British parties to look after our interests. Imagine the negotiations with Annie Wells at the table.

The three parties registered in England would have to disband and start anew. They may draw some from the SNP but not in the first 10 years imo

Have a look at how Sinn Fein are doing in Ireland. Most would have said they'd disband in the 1920's but they're still going strong.

I think there will be a continuing SNP but it's bound to lose people one way or the other. btw, your Ireland example doesn't really work given Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are both splits from Sinn Fein.

[ronaldo7]

I think there will be a continuing SNP but it's bound to lose people one way or the other. btw, your Ireland example doesn't really work given Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are both splits from Sinn Fein.

We may see a separating of the SNP as per Ireland, and we can then banish the British parties to the scrap heap.

[Stairway 2 7]

Any suggestions as to who might lead this old fashioned Scottish Labour Party?

I think Mercedes Villalba is the best msp currently

[marinello59]

I think Mercedes Villalba is the best msp currently

She’s excellent. . I was disappointed when Monica Lennon stepped back a bit, another very good MSP.

[MartinfaePorty]

It's something I don't struggle with at all. If anything, I struggle with the SNP hanging around. I mean - what's the point?

The SNP are an odd bunch of folk who believe in different things but who agree on one thing.

If they succeeded in delivering independence then ceased to exist then it's up to Scotland to then choose what direction they want to go in. As I understand it, more than anything, that is (or should be) what the SNP exist to do.

In all likelihood Scotland would vote for a left leaning party, again because there isn't really any point in being independent if we're going to vote in far right English nationalists like the governments our next door neighbours choose for us.

That may not be the case forever and it might be that Scotland and England would become more closely aligned politically over time, as Scotland became more prosperous but ultimately I don't think the idea that Scotland has the choice to manage it's own destiny and the way that it adapts to change to be a bad thing.

Obviously I think the SNP would need to hang around and manage a changeover but I can't see any benefit in the SNP continuing to exist post independence.

If you think SNP folk are odd I would direct you to the in-fighting that takes place on social media between the left, centre and right of the Labour party. If Independence happens then I foresee a return to having more parties make up the Scottish Parliament, similar to the 2003 election. Left, centre-left, centre, centre-right etc. The problem with first past the post is that, in a lot of cases, folk vote for the least-worst option, rather than getting to vote for a party that best aligns with their opinions.

[wookie70]

This is something I really struggle with. Vote for the snp so we can vote them out and get someone else in who don’t want what the snp are pushing for.

I have voted SNP in the past as they are the only show in town to gain Independence. I would never vote for them if we were an independent nation and I was voting on their other policies. Independence is the only way to bring positive change to Scotland so when voting it is the only thing I think about. I would imagine there will be a proper Scottish Labour Party formed post Independence and that will fill the left with the SNP staying centre or even drifting slightly right

[Jones28]

Any suggestions as to who might lead this old fashioned Scottish Labour Party?

I don't. I've no interest in that for now, it's a bridge I'll cross when I come to it.

[Jones28]

This is something I really struggle with. Vote for the snp so we can vote them out and get someone else in who don’t want what the snp are pushing for.

Vote SNP = gain independence = assess options post independence.

Whats so hard to understand?

[Stairway 2 7]

I always vote snp as a vehicle to independence. I won't be post independence, I'm sure that's common. I think due to the fact we don't have FPTP there will be opportunities for a wider spectrum of parties

There will also be about half of people who might want to rejoin uk, maybe our politics will be like northern Ireland. If things are difficult say 5 years after independence, when will they call for another vote

[James310]

I always vote snp as a vehicle to independence. I won't be post independence, I'm sure that's common. I think due to the fact we don't have FPTP there will be opportunities for a wider spectrum of parties

There will also be about half of people who might want to rejoin uk, maybe our politics will be like northern Ireland. If things are difficult say 5 years after independence, when will they call for another vote

What if Independence doesn't happen? Just keep voting SNP forever and a day?

[Jones28]

What if Independence doesn't happen? Just keep voting SNP forever and a day?

They’re the only palatable option for me at the moment, independence or not.

[Ozyhibby]

What if Independence doesn't happen? Just keep voting SNP forever and a day?

I know your not keen on democracy but I believe if you want something, you vote for it. They offer the best chance of getting what I want. So yes.


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[Stairway 2 7]

What if Independence doesn't happen? Just keep voting SNP forever and a day?

I think it will. Probably not in the next 3 or 4 years. They really should have pushed independence further forward especially against this clown show uk government.

[Just Alf]

What if Independence doesn't happen? Just keep voting SNP forever and a day?Can't answer for others, but I'll be voting SNP until we get a referendum as per their manifesto.

As per the other discussion, I expect I'd vote for them in the 1st election after independence is achieved, after that Labour will have a strong chance for my vote.

If the referendum result was a 'No' then my thoughts would lead me to something other than SNP as I'd feel the indy decision has been made and we need to start looking at whats going on in wider government.

[James310]

If the Supreme Court rules as many expect it to - that they can't rule on anything as there is no bill to rule on - I hope we don't see some of the conspiracy theories already being spread that somehow the judges have been "got to" and are doing as they are told by the Tory's. It's totally baseless and belongs to the Tin foil hat brigade. The same court ruled against the Tory government in spectacular style over Brexit remember.

[CropleyWasGod]

If the Supreme Court rules as many expect it to that they can't rule on anything as there is no bill to rule on I hope we don't see some of conspiracy theories already being spread that somehow the judges have been "got to" and are doing as they are told by the Tory's. It's totally baseless and belongs to the Tin foil hat brigade. The same court ruled against the Tory government in spectacular style over Brexit remember.

I'm sure you do :greengrin

[grunt]

Baseless conspiracy theories? Now where have I seen those before ...?

[James310]

Baseless conspiracy theories? Now where have I seen those before ...?

Quite regularly on here probably.

[Jack]

If the Supreme Court rules as many expect it to - that they can't rule on anything as there is no bill to rule on - I hope we don't see some of the conspiracy theories already being spread that somehow the judges have been "got to" and are doing as they are told by the Tory's. It's totally baseless and belongs to the Tin foil hat brigade. The same court ruled against the Tory government in spectacular style over Brexit remember.

Did the judiciary not get a severe ticking off following that with veiled threats from certain politicians?

[James310]

Did the judiciary not get a severe ticking off following that with veiled threats from certain politicians?

Yes, it was pretty shocking. Let's hope we don't see that again from any politicians.

"Enemies of the People" was the disgraceful headline in the Daily Mail. Let's hope we see nothing similar.

[Skol]

Vote SNP = gain independence = assess options post independence.

Whats so hard to understand?

Vote snp = gain independence. Don’t trust snp to implement the independence they delivered.

Why would I believe independence was going to be the holy grail they promised

I don’t often agree with Ronaldo7 but I agreed with most of his post as long as I ignored the digs at British/English parties.

[Since90+2]

Vote snp = gain independence. Don’t trust snp to implement the independence they delivered.

Why would I believe independence was going to be the holy grail they promised

I don’t often agree with Ronaldo7 but I agreed with most of his post as long as I ignored the digs at British/English parties.

The poster didn't say they don't trust the SNP simply that they'd assess their options post independence.

Seems a fairly sensible position to take.

[ronaldo7]

Vote snp = gain independence. Don’t trust snp to implement the independence they delivered.

Why would I believe independence was going to be the holy grail they promised

I don’t often agree with Ronaldo7 but I agreed with most of his post as long as I ignored the digs at British/English parties.

Facts are cheils that winnae ding.

Registered in England mate.

Or are you saying political parties registered in England would be able to stand candidates in an independent Scotland

[Skol]

The poster didn't say they don't trust the SNP simply that they'd assess their options post independence.

Seems a fairly sensible position to take.

Not for me. If you believe the snp on independence then they need to be the party who owns it’s implementation. Let’s face it they are the only major party who support independence. There is no independence supporting alternative

It would end up like the erg/ukip tail wagging the right wing dog trying to deliver brexit.

[Skol]

Facts are cheils that winnae ding.

Registered in England mate.

Or are you saying political parties registered in England would be able to stand candidates in an independent Scotland

I didn’t say that but it’s not unusual to misrepresent things. Fact is you were using those as cheap jibes.

[ronaldo7]

I didn’t say that but it’s not unusual to misrepresent things. Fact is you were using those as cheap jibes.

I'm stating facts.

Have you guys fallen so far that you can't discern the difference these days.

I think we'll end up with SNP in charge for some time, but the make up of the parliament will change over the following years due to people believing in our country.

[Since90+2]

Not for me. If you believe the snp on independence then they need to be the party who owns it’s implementation. Let’s face it they are the only major party who support independence. There is no independence supporting alternative

It would end up like the erg/ukip tail wagging the right wing dog trying to deliver brexit.

I'd like to think we could have a more open and cooperative parliament in an independent Scotland than what we see at Westminster.

Just because the British system is entirely broken doesn't mean that something better can't be created in iScotland.

[Jones28]

Vote snp = gain independence. Don’t trust snp to implement the independence they delivered.

Why would I believe independence was going to be the holy grail they promised

I don’t often agree with Ronaldo7 but I agreed with most of his post as long as I ignored the digs at British/English parties.

Independence is way more than 1 political party. Because I vote SNP because they are the main drivers of independence I need to stay wedded to them forever? What arbitrary time period should we set?

[Ozyhibby]

There are plenty people who vote Labour who want Indy.


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[Skol]

I'm stating facts.

Have you guys fallen so far that you can't discern the difference these days.

I think we'll end up with SNP in charge for some time, but the make up of the parliament will change over the following years due to people believing in our country.

My point is that it doesn’t matter where they are registered.

[Skol]

I'd like to think we could have a more open and cooperative parliament in an independent Scotland than what we see at Westminster.

Just because the British system is entirely broken doesn't mean that something better can't be created in iScotland.

Yep there is merit in that view. But that’s not what I am questioning. It’s the fact people vote snp now but already know they will not vote for them post independence.

Anyway as with al things we will never agree which might cast some doubt on this better system we might have. ;-)

[degenerated]

Independence is way more than 1 political party. Because I vote SNP because they are the main drivers of independence I need to stay wedded to them forever? What arbitrary time period should we set?A generation? :greengrin

[Skol]

Independence is way more than 1 political party. Because I vote SNP because they are the main drivers of independence I need to stay wedded to them forever? What arbitrary time period should we set?

There is no other major party putting independence forward as a solution. Why would you vote for them to be the first post independence party in power.

I am not saying you are wedded to snp but to already be looking for other options, and options you deride right now, shows a lack
Of faith in the snp

[Jack]

My point is that it doesn’t matter where they are registered.

It would be highly unusual I think for a political party registered in other country to be allowed to participate in another countries elections. I'm not aware of it happening anywhere. Are you?

I may have picked up this discussion late and wrong 😕

[James310]

It would be highly unusual I think for a political party registered in other country to be allowed to participate in another countries elections. I'm not aware of it happening anywhere. Are you?

I may have picked up this discussion late and wrong 😕

Party registered in UK takes part in UK elections, doesn't seem unusual at all.

[Jones28]

There is no other major party putting independence forward as a solution. Why would you vote for them to be the first post independence party in power.

I am not saying you are wedded to snp but to already be looking for other options, and options you deride right now, shows a lack
Of faith in the snp

They’re a vehicle for independence. I’ve never pretended they’re anything else to me.

I deride the other options because they are all dreadful. If independence wasn’t the crux of the issue at the moment I’d probably vote green.

[OldEast]

They’re a vehicle for independence. I’ve never pretended they’re anything else to me.

I deride the other options because they are all dreadful. If independence wasn’t the crux of the issue at the moment I’d probably vote green.

Exactly, me too. There is currently no other route to independence.

[The Modfather]

There is no other major party putting independence forward as a solution. Why would you vote for them to be the first post independence party in power.

I am not saying you are wedded to snp but to already be looking for other options, and options you deride right now, shows a lack
Of faith in the snp

Surely once independence is achieved it’s a clean slate for all parties to put forward their vision of the direction we want to go in. Maybe a Scottish Labour or Scottish Tories, not shackled to their Westminster parties would offer genuine alternatives and possibly the best vision.

I’d like to see all parties agreeing on a referendum on EU membership. As well as one on the monarchy, although can’t see anyone proposing that one.

[Jack]

Party registered in UK takes part in UK elections, doesn't seem unusual at all.

Ah! I thought the discussion was about parties after Scotland had become independent.

[xyz23jc]

Independence is way more than 1 political party. Because I vote SNP because they are the main drivers of independence I need to stay wedded to them forever? What arbitrary time period should we set?

A generation..! Lol! :greengrin

[He's here!]

If the Supreme Court rules as many expect it to - that they can't rule on anything as there is no bill to rule on - I hope we don't see some of the conspiracy theories already being spread that somehow the judges have been "got to" and are doing as they are told by the Tory's. It's totally baseless and belongs to the Tin foil hat brigade. The same court ruled against the Tory government in spectacular style over Brexit remember.

'Best Sturgeon can hope for is glorified opinion poll':

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/22/nicola-sturgeon-will-not-win-scottish-independence-former-snp/

[Ozyhibby]

'Best Sturgeon can hope for is glorified opinion poll':

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/11/22/nicola-sturgeon-will-not-win-scottish-independence-former-snp/

Love a good Jim Sillars article.[emoji106][emoji23]


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[Crunchie]

There are plenty people who vote Labour who want Indy.


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And a lot more SNP voters who don’t.

[degenerated]

And a lot more SNP voters who don’t.In % terms I bet that's not true.

[grunt]

And a lot more SNP voters who don’t.This is one of those whoosh comments isn't it?

[Since90+2]

Media suggesting Supreme Court will rule it's not within the powers of the Scottish Parliament to hold another referendum.

[Moulin Yarns]

So, the Scottish Government is wholly within the gift of the Westminster government!

Democracy is dead.

[Since90+2]

Media suggesting Supreme Court will rule it's not within the powers of the Scottish Parliament to hold another referendum.

Confirmed judgement.

[Mon Dieu4]

Pipe doon and do as you are told

[Moulin Yarns]

Let carnage commence.

[SHODAN]

gg

[degenerated]

Pipe doon and do as you are toldHardly a surprise. The instruments of the establishment act in the in the interests of the establishment, who could have seen that coming.

[Ozyhibby]

Always the expected judgement. A union held together by force of law now. There is no democratic route to independence.


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[Ozyhibby]

Let carnage commence.

Let’s hope not. We don’t want people turning to violence now.


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[Bristolhibby]

So much for a Union of effin Equals!

Scotland cannot even ask the question on independence unless England (Westminster) allows it.

Stitch up.

[weecounty hibby]

Scotland officially declared a colony. And before anyone argues go and look at the dictionary definition

[SHODAN]

Not allowed a referendum because the union would be sad. :(

[Bristolhibby]

So, the Scottish Government is wholly within the gift of the Westminster government!

Democracy is dead.

Yip, just a pretendy regional assembly.

Democracy is dead when we can’t even ask the question.

J

[cabbageandribs1875]

so

Colony it is
:agree:

[ronaldo7]

So we now move to a general election in 24, a Scottish election in 26, or generate a Scottish election before 26.

[Scottie]

So in other words 'Get back in your box and shut it' We are officially a colony.

Wonder why the UK parliament are so so keen to keep hold of Scotland & The Union. :rolleyes:

[Betty Boop]

Long live the Union :thumbsup:

[Ozyhibby]

So we now move to a general election in 24, a Scottish election in 26, or generate a Scottish election before 26.

I think the third option is the best option. Re-run the election. It’s a political issue so we have to address it politically.


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[Callum_62]

It certainly makes a mockery of this so called family of equals

It does give the SNP some more ammo though

I'm sure the question will now be what is the democratic route?

It appears to me its all on the whim of a group of mps overwhelmingly serving England

Seems fair

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[ronaldo7]

I think the third option is the best option. Re-run the election. It’s a political issue so we have to address it politically.


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The courts today said it's a political issue, so let's crack on. 😁

[Ozyhibby]

The courts today said it's a political issue, so let's crack on. [emoji16]

It’s not necessarily a wrong decision and it’s good that it’s been made. Politically it’s good for the yes movement. It shows people in the clearest terms where power lies and that’s not at Holyrood. NS’ response today will be interesting.


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[Santa Cruz]

I think the third option is the best option. Re-run the election. It’s a political issue so we have to address it politically.


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Did the FM mention this third option? Thought she said if the UKSC did not find in SG favour it would be decided by the result at a defacto G.E.

[Moulin Yarns]

Let’s hope not. We don’t want people turning to violence now.


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I meant on here with a half dozen posters toing and froing

[JeMeSouviens]

It certainly makes a mockery of this so called family of equals

It does give the SNP some more ammo though

I'm sure the question will now be what is the democratic route?

It appears to me its all on the whim of a group of mps overwhelmingly serving England

Seems fair

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I think anyone who actually believes it's a "family of equals" deserves all the mocking they get, tbh.

Judgement as expected. Glad they have ruled definitively.

[Stairway 2 7]

Expected but gutting. I think it will work for independence in the long run

[Since90+2]

I don't think NS herself will be too surprised at the ruling.

It was very much a punt, but one she knew by taking there would be a political gain to be made even if she lost because of the optics of it.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't think NS herself will be too surprised at the ruling.

It was very much a punt, but one she knew by taking there would be a political gain to be made even if she lost because of the optics of it.

Given the uncertainty of the opinion polls just now, I think she will secretly be quite pleased about the ruling. It gives her more time to build a more solid case for Independence.

It might even be the case that they played for this result.

[Pretty Boy]

Today was really a no lose for the yes movement so I can't see that they will be too downbeat regardless of what is said publicly.

If the ruling went in their favour it would be 'The courts have spoken and the rulings of the judiciary and the independent courts must be respected'

The ruling has gone against so officially it will be 'We need clarification on all democratic routes to a referendum and how we enact them'. If Westminster refuses to engage then medium to long term that strengthen the yes campaign. And the usual social media moon howlers can have their moment in the sun as well and yelp away about how 'the Britnat deep state have infiltrated the supposedly independent judiciary'.

The polls don't really suggest there is anywhere close to enough clear support for yes yet. NS has taken a punt here because she knows it makes sense politically. She is a politician and, for all people argue otherwise, as such she plays politics.

[grunt]

It might even be the case that they played for this result.I wondered this. All part of the plan.

[JeMeSouviens]

Given the uncertainty of the opinion polls just now, I think she will secretly be quite pleased about the ruling. It gives her more time to build a more solid case for Independence.

It might even be the case that they played for this result.

Yep, it's hardly unexpected. I think this was more about keeping the impatient part of the Yes movement, the "get on with it and hold a referendum" faction onside.

[grunt]

Watch this space


While disappointed by it I respect ruling of @UKSupremeCourt - it doesn't make law, only interprets it. A law that doesn't allow Scotland to choose our own future without Westminster consent exposes as myth any notion of the UK as a voluntary partnership & makes case for Indy

Scottish democracy will not be denied. Today’s ruling blocks one route to Scotland’s voice being heard on independence - but in a democracy our voice cannot and will not be silenced.I'll make a full statement later this morning - tune in around 11.30am

[Mcbizz1998]

Given the uncertainty of the opinion polls just now, I think she will secretly be quite pleased about the ruling. It gives her more time to build a more solid case for Independence.

It might even be the case that they played for this result.

She will be delighted. The grievance politics can continue and she can stay in a job.

[Mcbizz1998]

So in other words 'Get back in your box and shut it' We are officially a colony.

Wonder why the UK parliament are so so keen to keep hold of Scotland & The Union. :rolleyes:

They are keen because that’s what the majority of Scottish people want.

[WhileTheChief..]

Yip, just a pretendy regional assembly.

Democracy is dead when we can’t even ask the question.

J

It was asked and answered previously though.

I voted No, but since then the SNP have been doing everything they can to overturn mine, and the majority of the Scottish public's, vote on this.

We're not claiming democracy is dead!!

[JeMeSouviens]

It was asked and answered previously though.

I voted No, but since then the SNP have been doing everything they can to overturn mine, and the majority of the Scottish public's, vote on this.

We're not claiming democracy is dead!!

Party whose raison d'être is Scottish independence campaigns for Scottish independence, well I never! :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

Today was really a no lose for the yes movement so I can't see that they will be too downbeat regardless of what is said publicly.

If the ruling went in their favour it would be 'The courts have spoken and the rulings of the judiciary and the independent courts must be respected'

The ruling has gone against so officially it will be 'We need clarification on all democratic routes to a referendum and how we enact them'. If Westminster refuses to engage then medium to long term that strengthen the yes campaign. And the usual social media moon howlers can have their moment in the sun as well and yelp away about how 'the Britnat deep state have infiltrated the supposedly independent judiciary'.

The polls don't really suggest there is anywhere close to enough clear support for yes yet. NS has taken a punt here because she knows it makes sense politically. She is a politician and, for all people argue otherwise, as such she plays politics.

While I agree mostly I don’t think I would categorise it as a punt?


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[Ozyhibby]

They are keen because that’s what the majority of Scottish people want.

Lots of people disagree with that.


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[WhileTheChief..]

It’s not necessarily a wrong decision and it’s good that it’s been made. Politically it’s good for the yes movement. It shows people in the clearest terms where power lies and that’s not at Holyrood. NS’ response today will be interesting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We knew that in 2014 too and most of Scotland was fine with it.

Remember, Westminster isn't going against the will of the Scottish people here, despite what Sturgeon and Blackford continually say.

The Uk Gov is sticking up for everyone that voted No. Surely they've got an obligation to do so and you can understand it, if not like it?

Imagine for a second that you were a No voter. How would you feel if Westminster just rolled over to the will of the Scottish Gov and totally ignored you and everyone else like you, to please the minority.

It's not as black and white that some of you guys make out.

[Ozyhibby]

Yep, it's hardly unexpected. I think this was more about keeping the impatient part of the Yes movement, the "get on with it and hold a referendum" faction onside.

Don’t think it will do that. There are some dafties who still think we should just declare independence.


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[CropleyWasGod]

We knew that in 2014 too and most of Scotland was fine with it.

Remember, Westminster isn't going against the will of the Scottish people here, despite what Sturgeon and Blackford continually say.

The Uk Gov is sticking up for everyone that voted No. Surely they've got an obligation to do so and you can understand it, if not like it?

Imagine for a second that you were a No voter. How would you feel if Westminster just rolled over to the will of the Scottish Gov and totally ignored you and everyone else like you, to please the minority.

It's not as black and white that some of you guys make out.

We've had a couple of elections since 2014. In the last one, the electorate voted for parties who were in favour of holding another referendum. That's what the Court case was about....recognising, or not, the current will of the people.

[WhileTheChief..]

Party whose raison d'être is Scottish independence campaigns for Scottish independence, well I never! :rolleyes:

Er, that's not the point i'm making at all :confused:

Saying democracy is dead because you don't get your own way????

[Mcbizz1998]

Lots of people disagree with that.


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I’m sure they do but I’m not sure what they are basing it on? There is nothing to suggest that the separatists would win another
Referendum and they lost the last one by a mile (once in a generation).

[Ozyhibby]

We knew that in 2014 too and most of Scotland was fine with it.

Remember, Westminster isn't going against the will of the Scottish people here, despite what Sturgeon and Blackford continually say.

The Uk Gov is sticking up for everyone that voted No. Surely they've got an obligation to do so and you can understand it, if not like it?

Imagine for a second that you were a No voter. How would you feel if Westminster just rolled over to the will of the Scottish Gov and totally ignored you and everyone else like you, to please the minority.

It's not as black and white that some of you guys make out.

Democracy didn’t end in 2014. That wasn’t what anyone voted for. If you believe in something then you keep campaigning for it. You believe in the union, you should have no problem defending it on a daily basis. Democracy never stops.


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[Ozyhibby]

I’m sure they would but I’m not sure what they would be basing it on? There is nothing to suggest that the separatists would win another
Referendum and they lost the last one by a mile (once in a generation).

We should have a vote to see who’s right.[emoji106]


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[WhileTheChief..]

We've had a couple of elections since 2014. In the last one, the electorate voted for parties who were in favour of holding another referendum. That's what the Court case was about....recognising the current will of the people.

Yeah but when we voted in these elections, we weren't voting on whether 'our' party was unionist or not. We voted for whatever our own personal reasons for voting were at the time.

[The Modfather]

Er, that's not the point i'm making at all :confused:

Saying democracy is dead because you don't get your own way????

What’s the democratic route to independence? Put it in a manifesto, get voted in to power on that manifesto and then hope Westminster allow a referendum?

[cabbageandribs1875]

lol the democracy deniers are starting to appear, the ones that insist democracy ended in 2014 :agree:


meanwhile we're now in the 30th year of an independent Scotland, the public are asked if they would like to join England(i know i know) in a union, the NO side prevails, the YES side then say several years later that it would be democratic to have another vote because 'things have changed' and we should have another vote, because THAT is democracy, isn't it ?

but the side that said NO several years earlier to forming a union want to deny democracy taking place and insist 'Democracy was decided 8 years ago'


but the YES side say but but but this is not Democracy


oh look, the shoe would be on the other foot then, eh democracy deniers :aok:



sigh

[WhileTheChief..]

Democracy didn’t end in 2014. That wasn’t what anyone voted for. If you believe in something then you keep campaigning for it. You believe in the union, you should have no problem defending it on a daily basis. Democracy never stops.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agree 100%.

So actually Scottish democracy is healthy and thriving, not dead at all. That's my point.

[Mcbizz1998]

We should have a vote to see who’s right.[emoji106]


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I agree. The tears would be hilarious just like 2014.

[Ozyhibby]

Agree 100%.

So actually Scottish democracy is healthy and thriving, not dead at all. That's my point.

There is certainly a debate being had but one side is threatening to shut it down by force of law.


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[Mcbizz1998]

lol the democracy deniers are starting to appear, the ones that insist democracy ended in 2014 :agree:


meanwhile we're now in the 30th year of an independent Scotland, the public are asked if they would like to join England(i know i know) in a union, the NO side prevails, the YES side then say several years later that it would be democratic to have another vote because 'things have changed' and we should have another vote, because THAT is democracy, isn't it ?

but the side that said NO several years earlier to forming a union want to deny democracy taking place and insist 'Democracy was decided 8 years ago'


but the YES side say but but but this is not Democracy


oh look, the shoe would be on the other foot then, eh democracy deniers :aok:



sigh

That’s a nice imaginary story you have come up
with.

[WhileTheChief..]

What’s the democratic route to independence? Put it in a manifesto, get voted in to power on that manifesto and then hope Westminster allow a referendum?

A referendum some time in the future.

Pick a decent number of years and then revisit it. Maybe not quote as long as once in a generation, but certainly more than 10 would be my personal choice.

In the meantime, try and build a better Scotland with what we've got and see how we get on. It might strengthen the case for Indy further.

[CropleyWasGod]

Agree 100%.

So actually Scottish democracy is healthy and thriving, not dead at all. That's my point.

It's not very healthy if we vote for parties that want a referendum, and then we're not allowed it.

[J-C]

Yeah but when we voted in these elections, we weren't voting on whether 'our' party was unionist or not. We voted for whatever our own personal reasons for voting were at the time.

And these elections have returned an independence government each time.

[WhileTheChief..]

It's not very healthy if we vote for parties that want a referendum, and then we're not allowed it.

Again, that's not what we voted for.

[Since90+2]

We knew that in 2014 too and most of Scotland was fine with it.

Remember, Westminster isn't going against the will of the Scottish people here, despite what Sturgeon and Blackford continually say.

The Uk Gov is sticking up for everyone that voted No. Surely they've got an obligation to do so and you can understand it, if not like it?

Imagine for a second that you were a No voter. How would you feel if Westminster just rolled over to the will of the Scottish Gov and totally ignored you and everyone else like you, to please the minority.

It's not as black and white that some of you guys make out.

But they'd be "rolling over" as you put it to hold a referendum, not to grant independence.

If electing parties continually who's mandate includes another independence referendum is not the democratic way to another vote, then what is Scotland's democratic path to that?

[J-C]

Again, that's not what we voted for.

Why then have Labour or the Tories not been elected in Scotland.

[The Modfather]

A referendum some time in the future.

Pick a decent number of years and then revisit it. Maybe not quote as long as once in a generation, but certainly more than 10 would be my personal choice.

In the meantime, try and build a better Scotland with what we've got and see how we get on. It might strengthen the case for Indy further.

Who is picking the length of time? Why not let the electorate decide that length of time by voting in, or out, what’s in a parties mandate?

[Since90+2]

Again, that's not what we voted for.

Ehh, yes, we did, hence why the SNP are currently in power at Holyrood. They didn't get there by coup, they were democratically elected on a clear mandate.

[Moulin Yarns]

Er, that's not the point i'm making at all :confused:

Saying democracy is dead because you don't get your own way????

Democracy is the right to choose, and the circumstances are far away from 2014, so why should a referendum be held to allow people their voice.

[Mcbizz1998]

Why then have Labour or the Tories not been elected in Scotland.

Pretty obvious. The unionist vote is diluted across multiple parties. The nationalist vote is almost completely concentrated on the SNP. The majority of Scot’s still vote for the unionists.

[Callum_62]

Pretty obvious. The unionist vote is diluted across multiple parties. The nationalist vote is almost completely concentrated on the SNP. The majority of Scot’s still vote for the unionists.Snp get more seats than all other parties combined

Aye, but it's no enough to be allow them to ask the population they govern if they also hold the same view on there central belief

Cool.

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[Hibernian Verse]

We knew that in 2014 too and most of Scotland was fine with it.

Remember, Westminster isn't going against the will of the Scottish people here, despite what Sturgeon and Blackford continually say.

The Uk Gov is sticking up for everyone that voted No. Surely they've got an obligation to do so and you can understand it, if not like it?

Imagine for a second that you were a No voter. How would you feel if Westminster just rolled over to the will of the Scottish Gov and totally ignored you and everyone else like you, to please the minority.

It's not as black and white that some of you guys make out.

Am I not right in saying that there is a pro-indy majority in the Scottish Government? If the minority was independence voters then pro-Union parties would be the majority?

It's 55/45 in favour of Independence in the parliament.

[Hibernian Verse]

Pretty obvious. The unionist vote is diluted across multiple parties. The nationalist vote is almost completely concentrated on the SNP. The majority of Scot’s still vote for the unionists.

See my post above

[WhileTheChief..]

But they'd be "rolling over" as you put it to hold a referendum, not to grant independence.

If electing parties continually who's mandate includes another independence referendum is not the democratic way to another vote, then what is Scotland's democratic path to that?

Fast moving thread, I gave my view a couple of posts earlier.

I'm not a dyed in the wool Unionist, or whatever the phrase is.

I do think that the wishes of No voters have largely been ignored over the years though.

NS, and some Indy supporters, seem to hold us in utter disdain. That's the side of things i don't like or understand.

[grunt]

A referendum some time in the future. Pick a decent number of years and then revisit it. Maybe not quote as long as once in a generation, but certainly more than 10 would be my personal choice.
Why 10? Why not 27? Or 9? Or 43? Or 134?

Do you see the minor problem with your proposal?

[JeMeSouviens]

Fast moving thread, I gave my view a couple of posts earlier.

I'm not a dyed in the wool Unionist, or whatever the phrase is.

I do think that the wishes of No voters have largely been ignored over the years though.

NS, and some Indy supporters, seem to hold us in utter disdain. That's the side of things i don't like or understand.

We're still in your Union aren't we? :dunno:

[grunt]

I do think that the wishes of No voters have largely been ignored over the years though.


We're still in your Union aren't we? :dunno:
:greengrin

[Since90+2]

Fast moving thread, I gave my view a couple of posts earlier.

I'm not a dyed in the wool Unionist, or whatever the phrase is.

I do think that the wishes of No voters have largely been ignored over the years though.

NS, and some Indy supporters, seem to hold us in utter disdain. That's the side of things i don't like or understand.

So the answer is, there isn't a democratic process until unionists decide enough time has passed? That's some logic

[Mcbizz1998]

See my post above

Not sure what your point is. More people vote for the unionist parties. That’s all I’m saying.

[JeMeSouviens]

Pretty obvious. The unionist vote is diluted across multiple parties. The nationalist vote is almost completely concentrated on the SNP. The majority of Scot’s still vote for the unionists.

2021 election:

SNP+Green+Alba = 50.12%
Lab+Lib+Con = 46.46%

[Mcbizz1998]

So the answer is, there isn't a democratic process until unionists decide enough time has passed? That's some logic

And what’s the alternative? The losers of the last referendum get to decide when we get the next one? So every year until they win one and then that of course, would be the end of it?

[Since90+2]

And what’s the alternative? The losers of the last referendum get to decide when we get the next one? So every year until they win one and then that of course, would be the end of it?

Unless there's a material change, then yes. Brexit was that material change.

[Since90+2]

2021 election:

SNP+Green+Alba = 50.12%
Lab+Lib+Con = 46.46%

Don't let facts get in the way now.

[JeMeSouviens]

And what’s the alternative? The losers of the last referendum get to decide when we get the next one? So every year until they win one and then that of course, would be the end of it?

The party that wins the election gets to implement its manifesto. That's how parliamentary democracy works.

[WhileTheChief..]

So the answer is, there isn't a democratic process until unionists decide enough time has passed? That's some logic

No I didn't say that :faf:

It's reasonable to say the Scottish Gov should decide, but the events that have played out since 2014 have shown that they're asking too soon!!

They should have waited. They should have accepted the result and committed to 10 or 20 years of governing our country, if they remained in power.

From the moment they lost in 2014 they were dying for a reason for another vote. The argument that Brexit wa a trigger for it doesn't appear to resonate with enough voters or the polls would would be showing a huge majority for Indy.

Why aren't they? Why aren't we seeing polls of 65 - 70% in favour of Indy now?

[James310]

2021 election:

SNP+Green+Alba = 50.12%
Lab+Lib+Con = 46.46%

https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1590739920548933632?t=jXG4JSoSXpcXqUUrK1QF-Q&s=19


"The parties pledging a second referendum in their 2021 manifestos were: Alba, Greens, Libertarian, Restore Scotland, Scotia Future, SNP, and TUSC. Put them all together and they received a total of 2,698,892 votes, out of the 5,419,544 votes cast, which is 49.8% of the vote."

Someone is wrong.

[cabbageandribs1875]

oh oh here's Johnny

[weecounty hibby]

It was asked and answered previously though.

I voted No, but since then the SNP have been doing everything they can to overturn mine, and the majority of the Scottish public's, vote on this.

We're not claiming democracy is dead!!
Scotland cited no. Scotland isn’t independent. Explain how democracy was denied there?

[Mcbizz1998]

Don't let facts get in the way now.

Yeah, and this isn’t a fact. [emoji23]

[Since90+2]

No I didn't say that :faf:

It's reasonable to say the Scottish Gov should decide, but the events that have played out since 2014 have shown that they're asking too soon!!

They should have waited. They should have accepted the result and committed to 10 or 20 years of governing our country, if they remained in power.

From the moment they lost in 2014 they were dying for a reason for another vote. The argument that Brexit wa a trigger for it doesn't appear to resonate with enough voters or the polls would would be showing a huge majority for Indy.

Why aren't they? Why aren't we seeing polls of 65 - 70% in favour of Indy now?

Do you agree Brexit was a material change? If, yes, then how about we ask the country if they have changed their minds rather than opinion polls.

This idea that we should run the country by opinion polls rather than nationwide democratic elections is ridiculous.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1590739920548933632?t=jXG4JSoSXpcXqUUrK1QF-Q&s=19


"The parties pledging a second referendum in their 2021 manifestos were: Alba, Greens, Libertarian, Restore Scotland, Scotia Future, SNP, and TUSC. Put them all together and they received a total of 2,698,892 votes, out of the 5,419,544 votes cast, which is 49.8% of the vote."

Someone is wrong.

No, they're both "right". Depends how you measure it.

My way - take all regional votes as all parties stood in all regions.

A desperate spinner's way - take the cumulative total of all constituency votes and all regional votes despite the fact that the pro-Indy parties other than the SNP stood in very few constituencies.

[grunt]

Pick a decent number of years and then revisit it. Maybe not quote as long as once in a generation, but certainly more than 10 would be my personal choice.


They should have accepted the result and committed to 10 or 20 years of governing our country, if they remained in power.
So it's more than 10 years? Or is it 10 to 20 years? Or does the number change every 20 minutes, like your posts?

[Mon Dieu4]

And what’s the alternative? The losers of the last referendum get to decide when we get the next one? So every year until they win one and then that of course, would be the end of it?

There doesn't need to be an alternative, if you have something in your manifesto and get voted in then you get to implement it, doesn't matter of it's once, five times or ten times, it's out in the open and people know what they are voting for, can't see how anyone can have an issue with that

At the moment we have a PM who was voted in by a couple of hundred folk telling millions of Scottish voters what they can and can't do, that's ****ing mental

[JeMeSouviens]

Yeah, and this isn’t a fact. [emoji23]

It absolutely is unless the Electoral Management Board for Scotland have it wrong. Now, who to trust, you or them? Who can say? :dunno::rolleyes:

[Mcbizz1998]

There doesn't need to be an alternative, if you have something in your manifesto and get voted in then you get to implement it, doesn't matter of it's once, five times or ten times, it's out in the open and people know what they are voting for, can't see how anyone can have an issue with that

At the moment we have a PM who was voted in by a couple of hundred folk telling millions of Scottish voters what they can and can't do, that's ****ing mental

And do you get to implement manifesto pledges that you have no legal authority to promise or deliver on?

[grunt]

Nicola Sturgeon’s address about Scotland’s future
https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeons-address-about-scotlands-future/ (https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeons-address-about-scotlands-future/)

[Mon Dieu4]

And do you get to implement manifesto pledges that you have no legal authority to promise or deliver on?

The fact that's even an issue is part of the problem, imagine what the brexiteers would have done if they weren't allowed a referendum unless the EU agreed to it, same difference

[WhileTheChief..]

So it's more than 10 years? Or is it 10 to 20 years? Or does the number change every 20 minutes, like your posts?

Not like you to come on with snidey remarks to me!! Just skip past what I post if you don't like it?

I don't have a strong opinion either way. I enjoy reading people's thoughts on the issue and occasionally share my own, that's all.

[WhileTheChief..]

Do you agree Brexit was a material change? If, yes, then how about we ask the country if they have changed their minds rather than opinion polls.

This idea that we should run the country by opinion polls rather than nationwide democratic elections is ridiculous.

I think it was the SNP who said they would only call for another vote when the polls showed a consistent lead for Indy?

[Moulin Yarns]

2021 election:

SNP+Green+Alba = 50.12%
Lab+Lib+Con = 46.46%

Not to mention the voters of all parties who don't support the position of their parties on independence.

[degenerated]

The party that wins the election gets to implement its manifesto. That's how parliamentary democracy works.Except in colonies

[Mcbizz1998]

It absolutely is unless the Electoral Management Board for Scotland have it wrong. Now, who to trust, you or them? Who can say? :dunno::rolleyes:

It’s a fact if you only look at the votes you claim should be counted and ignore the numbers.

The unionist parties received more votes in 2021 than the nationalists, yes or no?


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[Since90+2]

I think it was the SNP who said they would only call for another vote when the polls showed a consistent lead for Indy?

Did they?

I can say for certainty it was the Unionist parties who said the only way to stay in the UK was to vote No. And yet we had our European citizenship removed just a few years later due to England voting to inflict incredible self harm.

[grunt]

Nicola Sturgeon’s address about Scotland’s future


https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeons-address-about-scotlands-future/ (https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeons-address-about-scotlands-future/)

Nicola Sturgeon quotes The Proclaimers!


I make clear again today, therefore, that I stand ready at any time to reach agreement with the Prime Minister on an adjustment to the devolution settlement that enables a lawful, democratic referendum to take place – a process that respects the right of people in Scotland to choose their future, in line with the mandate of the Scottish Parliament, lets politicians make the case for and against independence and, crucially, allows the Scottish people to decide.

What I will not do is go cap in hand.

[grunt]

Not like you to come on with snidey remarks to me!! Just skip past what I post if you don't like it?

I don't have a strong opinion either way. I enjoy reading people's thoughts on the issue and occasionally share my own, that's all.
Sorry I didn't mean to be snide. I was trying to make the point that there needs to be a process to determine how we have a referendum. Your posts provided a very good example of the "pluck a number from the air" approach which needs to be addressed, I think.

[pollution]

What a waste of £20m , people desperate for money, food, heating etc but she carried on with her campaign.

Democracy does not apply to her. We, the Scottish people, voted to remain in the UK. Get it, First Minister ? Time to stand down.

[grunt]

What a waste of £20m , people desperate for money, food, heating etc but she carried on with her campaign.

Democracy does not apply to her. We, the Scottish people, voted to remain in the UK. Get it, First Minister ? Time to stand down.
Has it ever occurred to you that one of the reasons people are going through a cost of living crisis is the actions of the Tory UK Govt?

No I don't suppose it has.

I'll not even bother to comment on your view of democracy.