Scottish Independence

[Glory Lurker]

Whilst thatcher was reviled in Scotland and working class communities she did have some policies that worked for everyone. (can't believe I'm actually saying that)

This lot are just looking out for themselves.

For everyone?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200715/f54c81391ca8de2101b75024a30dbd5e.jpg
Another blow for those predicting Ireland’s economic demise.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.cityam.com/time-for-the-uk-to-recognise-the-prospect-of-an-independent-scotland/amp/?p=1412453&__twitter_impression=true

People down south starting to accept the inevitable?


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[Future17]

https://www.cityam.com/time-for-the-uk-to-recognise-the-prospect-of-an-independent-scotland/amp/?p=1412453&__twitter_impression=true

People down south starting to accept the inevitable?


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Is that article not written by a Scottish nationalist?

[JeMeSouviens]

Is that article not written by a Scottish nationalist?

Maybe Yes sympathies but doesn’t sound like the average “nat” in his bio:

https://www.salamone.scot/about/

[Future17]

Maybe Yes sympathies but doesn’t sound like the average “nat” in his bio:

https://www.salamone.scot/about/

I just wondered about the "people down south" reference.

[hibsbollah]

I think the problem facing anyone who is trying to defend the union at the moment, is that one side of the debate is consistently aggressive, unprofessional and plain stupid. I just don’t hear the likes of Sturgeon coming up with this kind of tirade. It’s like Brexit Covid Era Unionism is an actual disease which precludes saying anything credible. And those of us who were previously neutral on the subject are paying attention. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/jul/23/uk-coronavirus-live-failure-government-economic-plans-covid-19-latest-news-updates

[Kato]

I think the problem facing anyone who is trying to defend the union at the moment, is that one side of the debate is consistently aggressive, unprofessional and plain stupid. I just don’t hear the likes of Sturgeon coming up with this kind of tirade. It’s like Brexit Covid Era Unionism is an actual disease which precludes saying anything credible. And those of us who were previously neutral on the subject are paying attention. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/jul/23/uk-coronavirus-live-failure-government-economic-plans-covid-19-latest-news-updates


The bit in bold - they are appealing to people's emotions. "The Might of The UK", is just a string words meant to stir people's feelings. During all of the Brexit debate, some of the Covid crisis and most/all of the last election debates the Tories were appealing to emotions whilst fact and actual planning were just cast aside. Once those debates are over you can see the floundering, lies and foolhardiness for what it is.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2020/08/03/the-road-to-independence-how-covid-and-brexit-pushed-scotlan

Interesting article on why the majority now support independence.


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[Antifa Hibs]

Back working and bored ****less so here goes...

1) Nationality doesn't bother me in the slightest. Couldn't care less if my passport is British or Scottish. Have next to no pride in either. My vote in an indyref2 would be what could help create a fairer society for all. Yes voters/No voters alike want to convince me how i should vote? I'm 99% sure how i would vote but every single person in my circle is a Yes voter so would be interesting to hear something from the opposite camp.

2) I've told by several people that "when Scotland gets Independence the SNP will fail to exist as people vote for them with a common goal for indy and when thats achieved people will vote for their own parties". That mightve been the case when the snp was a movement but surely thats not the case now? and if it is the case then with the SNP holding power at pretty much all levels why on earth are they going to risk giving that up? Surely retaining the status-quo of controlling pretty much everything in Scotland while blaming England for anything that goes wrong, is better for them than risking being out a job in a few months after a successful indy vote?

[Ozyhibby]

Back working and bored ****less so here goes...

1) Nationality doesn't bother me in the slightest. Couldn't care less if my passport is British or Scottish. Have next to no pride in either. My vote in an indyref2 would be what could help create a fairer society for all. Yes voters/No voters alike want to convince me how i should vote? I'm 99% sure how i would vote but every single person in my circle is a Yes voter so would be interesting to hear something from the opposite camp.

2) I've told by several people that "when Scotland gets Independence the SNP will fail to exist as people vote for them with a common goal for indy and when thats achieved people will vote for their own parties". That mightve been the case when the snp was a movement but surely thats not the case now? and if it is the case then with the SNP holding power at pretty much all levels why on earth are they going to risk giving that up? Surely retaining the status-quo of controlling pretty much everything in Scotland while blaming England for anything that goes wrong, is better for them than risking being out a job in a few months after a successful indy vote?

On point 2, there is no chance they just stop. People don’t just give up power. It’s why we have to have democratic laws. They will try to hang on. At first it will be to ‘make sure independence is a success’ and after that it will start to fall apart. There will be factions in the party that are only able to work together while the glue of independence is there. Once that’s gone, a split is inevitable.
There will be a new right of centre party as well as the Tories ditch the toxic part of the brand. Labour might even see a bit of a revival.
I doubt the SNP survives (as a force) 10 years after independence but it won’t be voluntary.


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[CropleyWasGod]

Back working and bored ****less so here goes...

1) Nationality doesn't bother me in the slightest. Couldn't care less if my passport is British or Scottish. Have next to no pride in either. My vote in an indyref2 would be what could help create a fairer society for all. Yes voters/No voters alike want to convince me how i should vote? I'm 99% sure how i would vote but every single person in my circle is a Yes voter so would be interesting to hear something from the opposite camp.

2) I've told by several people that "when Scotland gets Independence the SNP will fail to exist as people vote for them with a common goal for indy and when thats achieved people will vote for their own parties". That mightve been the case when the snp was a movement but surely thats not the case now? and if it is the case then with the SNP holding power at pretty much all levels why on earth are they going to risk giving that up? Surely retaining the status-quo of controlling pretty much everything in Scotland while blaming England for anything that goes wrong, is better for them than risking being out a job in a few months after a successful indy vote?

On point 1. We have the potential already to have a fairer society, by dint of our voting system. Our PR gives a better representation of the electorate in Parliament, therefore less chance of extremism of any kind and more chance of consensus.

I doubt whether that will happen at Westminster.

[HibernianJK]

Back working and bored ****less so here goes...

1) Nationality doesn't bother me in the slightest. Couldn't care less if my passport is British or Scottish. Have next to no pride in either. My vote in an indyref2 would be what could help create a fairer society for all. Yes voters/No voters alike want to convince me how i should vote? I'm 99% sure how i would vote but every single person in my circle is a Yes voter so would be interesting to hear something from the opposite camp.

2) I've told by several people that "when Scotland gets Independence the SNP will fail to exist as people vote for them with a common goal for indy and when thats achieved people will vote for their own parties". That mightve been the case when the snp was a movement but surely thats not the case now? and if it is the case then with the SNP holding power at pretty much all levels why on earth are they going to risk giving that up? Surely retaining the status-quo of controlling pretty much everything in Scotland while blaming England for anything that goes wrong, is better for them than risking being out a job in a few months after a successful indy vote?

As a rebuttal I’d be interested to as to he why you think a no vote would result in a fairer society for all? It’s been anything but for the last decade under this Tory government. At worst the SNP would have Scotland best interests at heart.

[Moulin Yarns]

I see George Galloway has a petition asking for a vote of no confidence in nicola Sturgeon. What a sad man.

[McD]

I see George Galloway has a petition asking for a vote of no confidence in nicola Sturgeon. What a sad man.



On what basis?


Seems like he's trying really hard to keep himself relevant in politics (and not doing a good job of it)

[Ozyhibby]

On what basis?


Seems like he's trying really hard to keep himself relevant in politics (and not doing a good job of it)

Still, no harm in having another unionist party to help split their vote. Bravo George.[emoji6]


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[Jones28]

I see George Galloway has a petition asking for a vote of no confidence in nicola Sturgeon. What a sad man.

Because...because he wants us to have the same death numbers as the rest of the UK..?

[lucky]

Nicola Sturgeon has done well on coronavirus and has came across as a competent leader. However questions remain over the handling of the NHS, Railways and Education in Scotland. The problem appears there are very few capable ministers around her. Robertson and Cherry would both enhance the Scottish Parliament. I’ve been a long time no supporter but I’m leaning towards Yes. But we do need clarity on Scotland’s economy going forward. But a comeback by Alex Salmond will not help convince people to vote yes and likewise trying to gerrymander the list vote next year will turn people away.

The SNP exist to deliver independence , if that’s achieved then their reason for existing ceases but every party that’s ever delivered independence for a country has held power for years afterwards . I would still expect a Nationalist party to be around 10 years after independence but I’m not convinced it will be the SNP or certainly not in its current shape and policies

[Skol]

As a rebuttal I’d be interested to as to he why you think a no vote would result in a fairer society for all? It’s been anything but for the last decade under this Tory government. At worst the SNP would have Scotland best interests at heart.

I believe in a no vote situation Scotland would be significantly worse off financially and as a result the dream to be a fairer society would not be possible. Taxes would rise, services would suffer and benefits would be impacted

Some more honesty from the Independence movement on this real risk would be very beneficial to the overall debate. i.e. show me why these will not be risk rather than dismiss it as project fear

[lord bunberry]

Nicola Sturgeon has done well on coronavirus and has came across as a competent leader. However questions remain over the handling of the NHS, Railways and Education in Scotland. The problem appears there are very few capable ministers around her. Robertson and Cherry would both enhance the Scottish Parliament. I’ve been a long time no supporter but I’m leaning towards Yes. But we do need clarity on Scotland’s economy going forward. But a comeback by Alex Salmond will not help convince people to vote yes and likewise trying to gerrymander the list vote next year will turn people away.

The SNP exist to deliver independence , if that’s achieved then their reason for existing ceases but every party that’s ever delivered independence for a country has held power for years afterwards . I would still expect a Nationalist party to be around 10 years after independence but I’m not convinced it will be the SNP or certainly not in its current shape and policies
The new independence parties(I believe there’s currently 6) will fail spectacularly, they’ve got no chance of winning any list seats. The sort of people backing them or probably the most vocal people backing them are people on the extremes of the yes movement. They’ve managed to turn so many yes voters against them.

[lord bunberry]

I believe in a no vote situation Scotland would be significantly worse off financially and as a result the dream to be a fairer society would not be possible. Taxes would rise, services would suffer and benefits would be impacted

Some more honesty from the Independence movement on this real risk would be very beneficial to the overall debate. i.e. show me why these will not be risk rather than dismiss it as project fear
It seems you’re already quite clued up if you think Scotland would be significantly worse off. Maybe there’s something in the project fear argument.

[Ozyhibby]

I believe in a no vote situation Scotland would be significantly worse off financially and as a result the dream to be a fairer society would not be possible. Taxes would rise, services would suffer and benefits would be impacted

Some more honesty from the Independence movement on this real risk would be very beneficial to the overall debate. i.e. show me why these will not be risk rather than dismiss it as project fear

Can’t really understand why we would be worse of than say Ireland or Denmark?
Under the current system we are poorer than these countries of course.


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[Skol]

Neither really answers the question though. Where is the evidence that we will be better off as an independent country.

I suspect I will get the usual nonsense replies which don’t really help to sway the doubters. I genuinely would like to see some debate on the downsides and an effort to show I am wrong rather than just tell me I am.

[Antifa Hibs]

As a rebuttal I’d be interested to as to he why you think a no vote would result in a fairer society for all? It’s been anything but for the last decade under this Tory government. At worst the SNP would have Scotland best interests at heart.

Should've made it clearer I'd vote yes - so was interested in anyone voting No to hear their thoughts.



Can’t really understand why we would be worse of than say Ireland or Denmark?
Under the current system we are poorer than these countries of course.


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Depends on what you mean by that? GDP then yes I guess. But are the working class minimum wage workers and families in Dublin any better off than their equivalent in Belfast, Edinburgh or London? I'd imagine that not to be the case but happy to be proved wrong.

People love to go on about Ireland's freedom too - they might've ridded themselves of the brits granted but now are in the pockets of Apple, Microsoft and other billion dollar companies instead.

[The Modfather]

Neither really answers the question though. Where is the evidence that we will be better off as an independent country.

I suspect I will get the usual nonsense replies which don’t really help to sway the doubters. I genuinely would like to see some debate on the downsides and an effort to show I am wrong rather than just tell me I am.

I’d also like to see a debate on the downsides of the union in a post Brexit Boris led Tory government. However it’s not a debate unionists are keen on either. Let’s be honest most folk, whatever side they sit on, just want a one sided debate rather than an actual constructive debate.

[Moulin Yarns]

Neither really answers the question though. Where is the evidence that we will be better off as an independent country.

I suspect I will get the usual nonsense replies which don’t really help to sway the doubters. I genuinely would like to see some debate on the downsides and an effort to show I am wrong rather than just tell me I am.

I'm no expert, and you will probably have heard lots about costs of things like crossrail, HS2 etc that only really advantage London and England but how much does Scotland contribut to national projects that, by all accounts, the majority do not want?

The Trident project for example cost each Scot a share of the £12.52bn to buy the missiles. It is also required to build new submarines at a cost of £31bn. Then there is the annual running cost for something that will (hopefully) never be used at £2bn.

So there is upwards of £45bn that Scotland has and continues to contribute towards that an independent Scotland would allocate towards other resources. What share of the costs are Scotland's? An estimate last year put it at £180m per annum, and Trident is expected to be replaced in 2060. That means 40 years at current cost (ignoring inflation) amounting to £7.2bn and by then the UK Government would be buying a replacement at god knows what cost.

OK a bit of a ramble but I think you would agree that even the relatively small sum of £180m a year that is spent on Trident (that's about £40 per adult in Scotland a year) should be put to better use, 7,000 nurses and teachers for example.


I should add, I don't think we will be magically better off, but we will be able to allocate our resources in a way that our government (of whatever hue) decides and not based on what the Westminster government does as a result of the Barnett consequencials.

[Ozyhibby]

Worse off or better off is up to us. We know that it’s possible to be better off like Denmark or Ireland are and we are also capable of mucking it up. The financial arguments of whether to go independent shouldn’t really be as important as they are.
The reality is we are falling behind the other small countries in Northern Europe and there is no plan to change that? Why should we carry on accepting that? That seems a very strange state of affairs, to be just accepting that we can’t be as rich as Ireland?


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[Ozyhibby]

Should've made it clearer I'd vote yes - so was interested in anyone voting No to hear their thoughts.




Depends on what you mean by that? GDP then yes I guess. But are the working class minimum wage workers and families in Dublin any better off than their equivalent in Belfast, Edinburgh or London? I'd imagine that not to be the case but happy to be proved wrong.

People love to go on about Ireland's freedom too - they might've ridded themselves of the brits granted but now are in the pockets of Apple, Microsoft and other billion dollar companies instead.

Minimum wage is higher in Ireland than it is here so I guess they are a little bit better off there. Also do you think there are no corporate interests in London? That this country is run for the people?[emoji23]


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[Kato]

The financial arguments of whether to go independent shouldn’t really be as important as they are.


Have always thought that way. Successive UK Govts have been a disaster for Scotland leaving us shackled to a kleptocracy with few morals. Unhooking ourselves from that would be a good start.

[Bristolhibby]

Have always thought that way. Successive UK Govts have been a disaster for Scotland leaving us shackled to a kleptocracy with few morals. Unhooking ourselves from that would be a good start.

What price is self determination?

Do the people who struggle for their independence think about the cost? Or is it just that they want their country to be governed by the people who live there?

J

[JeMeSouviens]

Neither really answers the question though. Where is the evidence that we will be better off as an independent country.

I suspect I will get the usual nonsense replies which don’t really help to sway the doubters. I genuinely would like to see some debate on the downsides and an effort to show I am wrong rather than just tell me I am.

I suspect you have totally made up your mind already anyway, but even if not, the economic/fiscal outlook for iScotland and/or the UK/rUK is extremely difficult to forecast because of the impact of Brexit and the unknowns attached to it: will there be a UK/EU trade deal and on what terms? Will the UK pursue a slash and burn regulations approach which might bring top line growth success but with potentially severe social and environmental impact?

My "forecast" is that the UK will get the worst of both worlds: right wing economics and consequent job insecurity, attacks on workers' rights, environmental damage - but even with those things the post-Brexit UK will struggle to replace the economic benefit of the EU's single market, will attract less investment etc. etc. My feeling is that this combined with the Tories' in-built small government ideology (notwithstanding the current Cummings/Johnson bizarro-world which won't/can't last) will lead to consequent long term public spending reduction. Added to this, if Scotland sticks with the UK and the the threat of indy is removed, the Barnett formula will be up for "reform", ie. public spending will be slashed even harder here.

An iScotland inside the EU has an inbuilt long term advantage compared to rUK but obviously the short term cost of turning our currently non-existent trade border with rUK into an external EU one is a heavy immediate burden.

So the tl;dr - choose between a short term shock and long term potential or less of a short term shock and a long term managed decline. But that's just my guesswork, there's plenty of other guesses out there if you're really interested.

Fundamentally, independence is about choosing a better governance model. Allocating power at a more appropriate level. Choosing co-operation with our EU neighbours on equal terms where that makes sense. Not being part of a post-imperial hangover country which still thinks it should spend enormous amounts on nuclear weapons and a global navy (ffs).

Get these things right, ie. join the happy band of small, co-operative independent European countries round about us, and we will (imo) reap the long term benefits.

[Ozyhibby]

What price is self determination?

Do the people who struggle for their independence think about the cost? Or is it just that they want their country to be governed by the people who live there?

J

And the great thing is, the price can be less than zero for Scotland.


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[Kato]

What price is self determination?

Do the people who struggle for their independence think about the cost? Or is it just that they want their country to be governed by the people who live there?

J

Most of the discussions re-Scottish Independence are around money, or they end up gravitating to the "cost" of independence, whether we'll be "better off" financially, what currency we will use etc. All things worth discussing but not top of the priorities for me.

[Ozyhibby]

There is a smaller, wealthier independent country right on our door step. Any argument that says we can’t be better off as an independent country lacks credibility.


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[heretoday]

Most of the discussions re-Scottish Independence are around money, or they end up gravitating to the "cost" of independence, whether we'll be "better off" financially, what currency we will use etc. All things worth discussing but not top of the priorities for me.

It's the economy......................

[ACLeith]

For me it's not about the economy.

Firstly, nobody can say if independence will be an economic disaster or Nirvana. Certainly the doctored Gers figures are irrelevant. The decisions taken by the first post-independence government will have different priorities and that’s before the savings from the removal of Trident.

Secondly, if we are the worst economic basket case in Europe and hopeless when compared to Ireland or Lithuania (having achieved their independence in the last generation), then that is an argument in favour of changing and not just carrying on doing the same things and hoping for a different outcome © Einstein.

Finally, Tories know the price of everything and the value of nothing. If we were a financial millstone round the Westminster necks, does anyone seriously suggest that they would hold on to us out of the goodness of their hearts and protect our "verminous race" © BJ.

It’s about making our own decisions. Within 10 years post-independence some will turn out to have been good, some bad, but they will all have been made by our own government of whatever hue, answerable to us, and not one elected by one of the four nations of the UK and rejected by the other 3.

[Skol]

I suspect you have totally made up your mind already anyway, but even if not, the economic/fiscal outlook for iScotland and/or the UK/rUK is extremely difficult to forecast because of the impact of Brexit and the unknowns attached to it: will there be a UK/EU trade deal and on what terms? Will the UK pursue a slash and burn regulations approach which might bring top line growth success but with potentially severe social and environmental impact?

My "forecast" is that the UK will get the worst of both worlds: right wing economics and consequent job insecurity, attacks on workers' rights, environmental damage - but even with those things the post-Brexit UK will struggle to replace the economic benefit of the EU's single market, will attract less investment etc. etc. My feeling is that this combined with the Tories' in-built small government ideology (notwithstanding the current Cummings/Johnson bizarro-world which won't/can't last) will lead to consequent long term public spending reduction. Added to this, if Scotland sticks with the UK and the the threat of indy is removed, the Barnett formula will be up for "reform", ie. public spending will be slashed even harder here.

An iScotland inside the EU has an inbuilt long term advantage compared to rUK but obviously the short term cost of turning our currently non-existent trade border with rUK into an external EU one is a heavy immediate burden.

So the tl;dr - choose between a short term shock and long term potential or less of a short term shock and a long term managed decline. But that's just my guesswork, there's plenty of other guesses out there if you're really interested.

Fundamentally, independence is about choosing a better governance model. Allocating power at a more appropriate level. Choosing co-operation with our EU neighbours on equal terms where that makes sense. Not being part of a post-imperial hangover country which still thinks it should spend enormous amounts on nuclear weapons and a global navy (ffs).

Get these things right, ie. join the happy band of small, co-operative independent European countries round about us, and we will (imo) reap the long term benefits.

Yes, my mind is currently made up but I like to think I am open to new ideas if a proper argument is put forward. Unfortunately we do not see that in the Independence debate very often.

I agree that Brexit will have a negative effect, but remain to be convinced that Independence will repair any of that damage and in fact the two together plus the impact of COVID mean that Scotland would have a pretty bleak outlook.

I also see plenty wrong with the current running of the UK, but I dont see the prospect of the SNP being in control is any better. None of the other parties in Scotland are showing any signs of being close to competent either.

[Kato]

I also see plenty wrong with the current running of the UK, but I dont see the prospect of the SNP being in control is any better.


You think the SNP would be as bad as the current Tory Govt? The lies, the squandering of cash, the baseless bragging? The SNP would do all that?

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[heretoday]

You think the SNP would be as bad as the current Tory Govt? The lies, the squandering of cash, the baseless bragging? The SNP would do all that?

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They won't always be in power will they?

[Hibrandenburg]

They won't always be in power will they?

But there's the coup, if we don't like it we can change it, rather than hope that any given government have also pissed off enough people south of the border to make that change.

[Kato]

They won't always be in power will they?....the circle goes around, an undermined Labour Govt for a few years tops then the Eton bully boys grab power again...Boom bust with none the boom trickling down and the bust making fortunes for the already haves. UK Govt system is not fit for purpose...

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[Moulin Yarns]

I'm no expert, and you will probably have heard lots about costs of things like crossrail, HS2 etc that only really advantage London and England but how much does Scotland contribut to national projects that, by all accounts, the majority do not want?

The Trident project for example cost each Scot a share of the £12.52bn to buy the missiles. It is also required to build new submarines at a cost of £31bn. Then there is the annual running cost for something that will (hopefully) never be used at £2bn.

So there is upwards of £45bn that Scotland has and continues to contribute towards that an independent Scotland would allocate towards other resources. What share of the costs are Scotland's? An estimate last year put it at £180m per annum, and Trident is expected to be replaced in 2060. That means 40 years at current cost (ignoring inflation) amounting to £7.2bn and by then the UK Government would be buying a replacement at god knows what cost.

OK a bit of a ramble but I think you would agree that even the relatively small sum of £180m a year that is spent on Trident (that's about £40 per adult in Scotland a year) should be put to better use, 7,000 nurses and teachers for example.


I should add, I don't think we will be magically better off, but we will be able to allocate our resources in a way that our government (of whatever hue) decides and not based on what the Westminster government does as a result of the Barnett consequencials.

Well Skol, any opinion on the cost of the nuclear deterrent?

[cabbageandribs1875]

saw this on fb

breaking *: as outrage builds in UK media over the stupidity of middle eastern authorities placing explosive materials so close to a city, 4 UK submarines with nuclear weapons dock at faslane HMNB base, 23 miles from glasgow's largest children's hospital.

get they damn things based somewhere on the thames instead :aok:

[Mibbes Aye]

saw this on fb

breaking *: as outrage builds in UK media over the stupidity of middle eastern authorities placing explosive materials so close to a city, 4 UK submarines with nuclear weapons dock at faslane HMNB base, 23 miles from glasgow's largest children's hospital.

get they damn things based somewhere on the thames instead :aok:

You are being a bit silly now.

The nuclear subs need deep water bases, I think that is without dispute.

And the hospitals in the central belt, especially relating to children, seem very capable of creating all sorts of concern and inquiry and deaths without the necessity of a nuclear submarine base in the equation.

Children died unnecessarily. It wasnt because of Faslane. It hasn’t been because of Faslane for however many years.

Maybe better sorting out why children died because of potential inadequate hygiene and infection control, with ministers taking responsibility.

[1875godsgift]

For me it's not about the economy.

Firstly, nobody can say if independence will be an economic disaster or Nirvana. Certainly the doctored Gers figures are irrelevant. The decisions taken by the first post-independence government will have different priorities and that’s before the savings from the removal of Trident.

Secondly, if we are the worst economic basket case in Europe and hopeless when compared to Ireland or Lithuania (having achieved their independence in the last generation), then that is an argument in favour of changing and not just carrying on doing the same things and hoping for a different outcome © Einstein.

Finally, Tories know the price of everything and the value of nothing. If we were a financial millstone round the Westminster necks, does anyone seriously suggest that they would hold on to us out of the goodness of their hearts and protect our "verminous race" © BJ.

It’s about making our own decisions. Within 10 years post-independence some will turn out to have been good, some bad, but they will all have been made by our own government of whatever hue, answerable to us, and not one elected by one of the four nations of the UK and rejected by the other 3.


:top marks

[lucky]

For those who are solid confirmed committed yes votes nothing anyone says will change them. Likewise with confirmed no voters. Scotland’s future will be decided by 10-15% of potential swing voters. The economy is a big thing for most including a future currency. Most of us want to get rid of Trident but what does that actually give us? Moving nuclear subs a few hundred miles away does not make the world safer. But what about all those well paid jobs that the base at Faslane provides? A lot of West Dumbartonshire rely on the income for the base and its workers. If you worked or relied on the base what would convince you to vote for independence?

For me the best hope for independence is steady government and keeping the more daft element of the yes movement at bay. Like those nutters at the border telling English to go home during the Covid crisis.

But when and if the next referendum happens I suppose we will all vote for what we believe is best for ourselves and families

[Moulin Yarns]

For those who are solid confirmed committed yes votes nothing anyone says will change them. Likewise with confirmed no voters. Scotland’s future will be decided by 10-15% of potential swing voters. The economy is a big thing for most including a future currency. Most of us want to get rid of Trident but what does that actually give us? Moving nuclear subs a few hundred miles away does not make the world safer. But what about all those well paid jobs that the base at Faslane provides? A lot of West Dumbartonshire rely on the income for the base and its workers. If you worked or relied on the base what would convince you to vote for independence?

For me the best hope for independence is steady government and keeping the more daft element of the yes movement at bay. Like those nutters at the border telling English to go home during the Covid crisis.

But when and if the next referendum happens I suppose we will all vote for what we believe is best for ourselves and families

On Faslane, I believe that has been identified as the base for any future Scottish defence personnel so the economic impact on the Helensburgh area would be minimal.

[Keith_M]

...

For me the best hope for independence is steady government and keeping the more daft element of the yes movement at bay. Like those nutters at the border telling English to go home during the Covid crisis.

...


If they were suddenly appearing in their thousands, it might be an issue, but currently they are about a half dozen nutters that I'd imagine the majority of both Yes and No voters would happily see the back of.

FWIW, if there was any proven merit in regionalizing the country and blocking access between those regions to contain the spread of a deadly disease (as has happened elsewhere), I'm sure most of us would reluctantly accept it. However, a handful of protesters is not exactly the way to go about that.

[Bristolhibby]

On Faslane, I believe that has been identified as the base for any future Scottish defence personnel so the economic impact on the Helensburgh area would be minimal.

This, read the white paper published in 2014.

Unlike the horse **** written on a bus and racist tailored BREXIT Facebook adverts the Indy campaign had a wealth of information.

I find it crazy that England can take a punt on BREXIT, but in Scotland we want to account for every shilling.

That’s by the by though.

But as Defence is concerned, I doubt Faslane will see a drop in work. We also will have a major bargaining chip with the rUK.

Access to Faslane may be a bargain that it’s worth holding our collective noses over, at least in the short to medium term.

J

[Mibbes Aye]

On Faslane, I believe that has been identified as the base for any future Scottish defence personnel so the economic impact on the Helensburgh area would be minimal.

The skill sets required to maintain nuclear submarines are rather different than that for conventional forces. I think undoubtedly you would see a reconfiguration in the workforce, and likely a bit of an exodus to wherever subs were based. But to echo bristolhibby’s point, Faslane or Holy Loch is strategically important due to the deep sea lanes that you don’t get on the Solent. And were there to be an independent Scotland, our defence forces, whatever they may look like, would surely be east-facing, not stuck on the West Coast. That is surely why we have fighters based at Lossiemouth rather than Machrahanish.

[Moulin Yarns]

The skill sets required to maintain nuclear submarines are rather different than that for conventional forces. I think undoubtedly you would see a reconfiguration in the workforce, and likely a bit of an exodus to wherever subs were based. But to echo bristolhibby’s point, Faslane or Holy Loch is strategically important due to the deep sea lanes that you don’t get on the Solent. And were there to be an independent Scotland, our defence forces, whatever they may look like, would surely be east-facing, not stuck on the West Coast. That is surely why we have fighters based at Lossiemouth rather than Machrahanish.

Depends where you see the threats from 🤔😁


So why are the nuclear subs not based in Rosyth?

[JeMeSouviens]

For those who are solid confirmed committed yes votes nothing anyone says will change them. Likewise with confirmed no voters. Scotland’s future will be decided by 10-15% of potential swing voters. The economy is a big thing for most including a future currency. Most of us want to get rid of Trident but what does that actually give us? Moving nuclear subs a few hundred miles away does not make the world safer. But what about all those well paid jobs that the base at Faslane provides? A lot of West Dumbartonshire rely on the income for the base and its workers. If you worked or relied on the base what would convince you to vote for independence?

For me the best hope for independence is steady government and keeping the more daft element of the yes movement at bay. Like those nutters at the border telling English to go home during the Covid crisis.

But when and if the next referendum happens I suppose we will all vote for what we believe is best for ourselves and families

It's doubtful that rUK would keep nuclear weapons in the event of indy. It would cost them a fortune and they'd be sure to face an almighty hoo-ha from wherever they tried to re-site them. It's not just Faslane and the deep water, it's Coulport and its underground complex of missile storage.

A country the size of the UK spending the sort of money it does on nukes is ludicrous really. Trident is not an independent operation in any practical sense anyway. The UK cannot maintain the system without the co-operation of the US.

[JeMeSouviens]

The skill sets required to maintain nuclear submarines are rather different than that for conventional forces. I think undoubtedly you would see a reconfiguration in the workforce, and likely a bit of an exodus to wherever subs were based. But to echo bristolhibby’s point, Faslane or Holy Loch is strategically important due to the deep sea lanes that you don’t get on the Solent. And were there to be an independent Scotland, our defence forces, whatever they may look like, would surely be east-facing, not stuck on the West Coast. That is surely why we have fighters based at Lossiemouth rather than Machrahanish.

The defence part of the 2014 white paper was ridiculous. Vastly overblown conventional forces for a country of our size.

With the "difficult" UK out of the picture, it's time the EU was thinking seriously about much more defence co-operation, tbh. We should be planning a co-ordinated policy across the continent.

[Skol]

You think the SNP would be as bad as the current Tory Govt? The lies, the squandering of cash, the baseless bragging? The SNP would do all that?

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Really ?

[Skol]

They won't always be in power will they?

There is no prospect of Scottish Labour, Tories or Lib Dems in the near future posing a credible challenge

[Skol]

Well Skol, any opinion on the cost of the nuclear deterrent?

My mind isnt made up on that at present. I do think thought that an independent scotland would be under pressure as part of leaving negotiations to allow Trident to remain and they may well concede on that to gain other concessions

[Kato]

Really ?

Sorry mate I don't understand what you mean by this.

You said "I also see plenty wrong with the current running of the UK, but I dont see the prospect of the SNP being in control is any better", I pointed out some traits of the current UK Govt and inferred in my questions that the SNP would have to stretch any corruption within to match that.

What does "Really ?" mean.

[Moulin Yarns]

My mind isnt made up on that at present. I do think thought that an independent scotland would be under pressure as part of leaving negotiations to allow Trident to remain and they may well concede on that to gain other concessions

Maybe, but at no cost to an independent Scotland, so there is a decent saving.

[Rocky]

My mind isnt made up on that at present. I do think thought that an independent scotland would be under pressure as part of leaving negotiations to allow Trident to remain and they may well concede on that to gain other concessions

I think you pose good questions, and if you're really posting them in good faith you're pretty much where I was in 2014. I don't see any point in creating new borders when we're all Jock Tamson's bairns. Also, what's the point in incurring the costs of setting up our own HMRC / DVLA etc etc.

However. The last four years (and in particular the past four months) have shown me that, whilst we're still all Jock Tamson's bairns, English and Scottish people have a fundamentally different outlook on life on the whole. Scotland is a far more socialist country and I believe, as an electorate, would prioritise overall social wellbeing over raw GDP numbers. That attitude will shape our post independence parties. Labour will get to be Labour again instead of the wishy washy nonentity it's become. Scottish conservatives will be able to challenge them on principles instead of as a Westminster lapdog.

And on the costs of independence, well, the Brexit vote has thrown that right up in the air. Potentially the savings from being Scotland in Europe would now outweigh the costs of separating from rUK. On that point no-one can know for sure.

So for me that takes me back to fundamentals. Scotland is a country with plenty of natural resources. Well placed geographically for rUK, EU and Scandinavia, and I've no reason to think that we're any less intelligent than any other country. So if you accept the argument that Scottish people have a different outlook on life from English people, and accept that there's no fundamental reason why we would fail as a nation, then independence seems like a clear preference for me. However I accept that for anyone who's views are right wing then it's not the right choice as there's no doubt we'd be to the left of the UK post independence.

Me, I want good services, minimum income guarantee, decent pensions, healthcare that's free at the point of use etc etc. If that comes at the expense of some people at the top end of income (including myself) paying more tax, then I'm absolutely fine with that.

[StevieC]

My mind isnt made up on that at present. I do think thought that an independent scotland would be under pressure as part of leaving negotiations to allow Trident to remain and they may well concede on that to gain other concessions

So instead of squandering millions on Trident we would actually receive benefits (financial or otherwise) for keeping it here?
That sounds like a reasonable option to me.

[Betty Boop]

A warm and welcoming country, unless you are English.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/england-get-out-scotland-protesters-outside-uk-government-base-edinburgh-2935605

[Future17]

A warm and welcoming country, unless you are English.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/england-get-out-scotland-protesters-outside-uk-government-base-edinburgh-2935605

There's three of them in the photo. If it were a significantly larger gathering, I'm sure the photo would reflect that.

Claiming the actions of three people are reflective of the attitude of an entire country is beyond poor from you.

[Hiber-nation]

A warm and welcoming country, unless you are English.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/england-get-out-scotland-protesters-outside-uk-government-base-edinburgh-2935605

3 random nutjobs.

[ACLeith]

3 random nutjobs.

Clerkin in particular has a long track record of being a nutter. He was kicked out of a group called Scottish Resistance for this same racist banner.

To use him to make any sort of political point is frankly pathetic

[Ozyhibby]

A warm and welcoming country, unless you are English.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/england-get-out-scotland-protesters-outside-uk-government-base-edinburgh-2935605

That’s like saying Tommy Robinson is representative of English people. Clerkin is a nut job who has been expelled from even the more radical fringe groups in the Yes movement.


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[Callum_62]

That’s like saying Tommy Robinson is representative of English people. Clerkin is a nut job who has been expelled from even the more radical fringe groups in the Yes movement.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYeah but we are exactky the same as England.

Lurching to the right and full of right wing nut jobs

I lived overseas for a long part of my adult life and I can never understand why the argument of unionists is oftentimes "SCOTLANDS *****"

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[JimBHibees]

You are being a bit silly now.

The nuclear subs need deep water bases, I think that is without dispute.

And the hospitals in the central belt, especially relating to children, seem very capable of creating all sorts of concern and inquiry and deaths without the necessity of a nuclear submarine base in the equation.

Children died unnecessarily. It wasnt because of Faslane. It hasn’t been because of Faslane for however many years.

Maybe better sorting out why children died because of potential inadequate hygiene and infection control, with ministers taking responsibility.

No deep water bases in England?

[Callum_62]

No deep water bases in England?No... Coz they have like people living near them..... [emoji102]

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/why-relocating-trident-away-from-scotland-is-virtually-impossible/

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[JimBHibees]

No... Coz they have like people living near them..... [emoji102]

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/why-relocating-trident-away-from-scotland-is-virtually-impossible/

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:greengrin

[Bostonhibby]

I see George Galloway has a petition asking for a vote of no confidence in nicola Sturgeon. What a sad man.He should try dressing up as a cat and seeking attention that way.

He'll be able to generate a few quid by doing it so entirely in keeping.

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[ronaldo7]

There's three of them in the photo. If it were a significantly larger gathering, I'm sure the photo would reflect that.

Claiming the actions of three people are reflective of the attitude of an entire country is beyond poor from you.

It's the same guys who were at the border the other week.

Some folk can't help themselves.

[Bostonhibby]

It's the same guys who were in the border the other week.

Some folk can't help themselves.Every time I see them I can't help thinking of this.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200808/6e2336a48ed937eb4d53f69099804c88.gif

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[Keith_M]

A warm and welcoming country, unless you are English.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/england-get-out-scotland-protesters-outside-uk-government-base-edinburgh-2935605


How many people are involved?

A bit over the top to write off a whole country based on that.

[Kato]

A warm and welcoming country, unless you are English.
[/URL]

That's a bigoted point of view.

[murray26]

A warm and welcoming country, unless you are English.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/england-get-out-scotland-protesters-outside-uk-government-base-edinburgh-2935605
Get a life..

[Jones28]

A warm and welcoming country, unless you are English.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/england-get-out-scotland-protesters-outside-uk-government-base-edinburgh-2935605

That’s like saying those fannies a few seasons ago with “Petrie Out” banners and staging their wee protest of 10 folk were representative of the whole Hibs support.

[StevieC]

A warm and welcoming country, unless you are English.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/england-get-out-scotland-protesters-outside-uk-government-base-edinburgh-2935605

This is a handful of guys that turn up with that banner at quite a few events, and they aren’t made very welcome when they do.
When Boris turned up to the leadership roadshow at Perth Concert Hall these guys turned up and were told by the local SNP branches to GTF with that banner.

[JeMeSouviens]

How are the welcoming parties for brave migrants making their way to Dover getting on, Betty Boop?

[degenerated]

How are the welcoming parties for brave migrants making their way to Dover getting on, Betty Boop?Welcoming them ashore with a mug of hot tea https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200810/8a744ed8794d849aea39a6277ee0511b.jpg

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[SHODAN]

Welcoming them ashore with a mug of hot tea https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200810/8a744ed8794d849aea39a6277ee0511b.jpg

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Are those mugs still around anywhere? I'd love to source one as a collectors' piece and a reminder any time I seriously consider voting for Labour.

[lucky]

Are those mugs still around anywhere? I'd love to source one as a collectors' piece and a reminder any time I seriously consider voting for Labour.

Are you suggesting in an independent Scotland that we won’t have controls on our borders?

[Ozyhibby]

Are you suggesting in an independent Scotland that we won’t have controls on our borders?

Absolutely, it will be done jointly within the EU.


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[SHODAN]

Are you suggesting in an independent Scotland that we won’t have controls on our borders?

I imagine it wouldn't be a cornerstone manifesto pledge from any of our so-called left wing parties.

[ronaldo7]

I imagine it wouldn't be a cornerstone manifesto pledge from any of our so-called left wing parties.

Refugees are welcome here. I remember we had big banners at Easter road back in 2015.

Lest we forget.

[marinello59]

Refugees are welcome here. I remember we had big banners at Easter road back in 2015.

Lest we forget.

Yeap. And at least one of them was paid for from from donations collected here and supported by people with a broad range of political allegiances.

[ronaldo7]

Yeap. And at least one of them was paid for from from donations collected here and supported by people with a broad range of political allegiances.

Yup, kicking Betty's political point scoring into touch.

[BroxburnHibee]

A warm and welcoming country, unless you are English.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/england-get-out-scotland-protesters-outside-uk-government-base-edinburgh-2935605

Shameful post!

[jonty]

Whilst BB has effectively posted and done a runner (lobbed the old grenade, if you will) I'm not (immediately) aware of his/her political leanings so at the risk of sounding stupid (as I normal do in the holy ground....) they simply posted a link to an article without any context

So are we assuming that they endorse the article/item or are they simply passing the article on for awareness of a couple of idiots?

[JeMeSouviens]

Whilst BP has effectively posted and done a runner (lobbed the old grenade, if you will) I'm not (immediately) aware of his/her political leanings so at the risk of sounding stupid (as I normal do in the holy ground....) they simply posted a link to an article without any context

So are we assuming that they endorse the article/item or are they simply passing the article on for awareness of a couple of idiots?

Betty Boop?

A mix of Corbynista Labour and ultra Unionist I think. The message you are intended to receive is that Nats are either openly fanatical anti-English racists or barely concealed fanatical anti-English racists.

Anyway, must fly, I've got to sharpen my pitchfork before visiting one of my English neighbours later on ...

[jonty]

Betty Boop?

A mix of Corbynista Labour and ultra Unionist I think. The message you are intended to receive is that Nats are either openly fanatical anti-English racists or barely concealed fanatical anti-English racists.

Anyway, must fly, I've got to sharpen my pitchfork before visiting one of my English neighbours later on ...

yeah, BB not BP, sorry :greengrin
Thanks. i tend to read the arguments on face value and not remember the backgrounds of posters. Which is probably why this place confuses the hell out of me sometimes :greengrin

[HibernianJK]

Indy support now at 53% according to latest YouGov poll.

[Mr Grieves]

Indy support now at 53% according to latest YouGov poll.

https://twitter.com/thetimesscot/status/1293312612332077057?s=20

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/thetimesscot/status/1293312612332077057?s=20

Amazing how support for independence has soared since Johnson first used the veto. It’s almost like Sturgeon knows what she is doing. Plan A working a treat.


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[CloudSquall]

With Boris and co adamant they will not "allow" a 2nd referendum you have to wonder what the end game is now especially with poll after poll now showing a majority for independence and the SNP likely to end up with a big majority after the next election

[HibernianJK]

With Boris and co adamant they will not "allow" a 2nd referendum you have to wonder what the end game is now especially with poll after poll now showing a majority for independence and the SNP likely to end up with a big majority after the next election

I think there’s been small murmurs in unionist parties that if SNP do gain a majority in the next election then the pressure for Indyref2 may be too much to deny. Especially if they go into the election specifically opposing Indyref2 as a policy and take a heavy defeat.

[heretoday]

Refugees are welcome here. I remember we had big banners at Easter road back in 2015.

Lest we forget.

Yeah we're gonna need as many bodies as possible to help stamp out all the Rangers bazzas after Indy.
No escape!

[Hibrandenburg]

Amazing how support for independence has soared since Johnson first used the veto. It’s almost like Sturgeon knows what she is doing. Plan A working a treat.


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The debates on UK TV and radio have been an eye opener for some. "If we let them", "We need to get rid of them","If we do give them permission". This is the language of ownership, not partnership.

[Ozyhibby]

The debates on UK TV and radio have been an eye opener for some. "If we let them", "We need to get rid of them","If we do give them permission". This is the language of ownership, not partnership.

Absolutely. The more it becomes about permission from England, the higher support for independence goes.


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[lucky]

The debates on UK TV and radio have been an eye opener for some. "If we let them", "We need to get rid of them","If we do give them permission". This is the language of ownership, not partnership.

Who has said any of this?

[lapsedhibee]

Who has said any of this?

Javid said last year he "wouldn't allow" a referendum if he was made party leader and prime minister. The tone was striking, patronising and almost guaranteed to sway thinking No voters.

[Hibrandenburg]

Who has said any of this?

Ach, just mostly throw away comments made by angry gammon callers on radio debates who think England is Scotland's life support machine.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Holyrood polling from Yougov is incredible.

Constituency:

SNP 57
Con 20
Lab 14
Lib 6
Green 1

List:

SNP 47
Con 21
Lab 14
Lib 6
Green 6

Hopefully the "Indy list party" folk will get the message from this poll and duly gtf!

[Moulin Yarns]

The Holyrood polling from Yougov is incredible.

Constituency:

SNP 57
Con 20
Lab 14
Lib 6
Green 1

List:

SNP 47
Con 21
Lab 14
Lib 6
Green 6

Hopefully the "Indy list party" folk will get the message from this poll and duly gtf!

If the snp are so strong in the constituency vote then they will not win any of the list seats.

I agree with you on Indy list parties though, vote snp 1 Green 2. Leads to an independence majority at Holyrood but with a good opposition to the snp.

[JeMeSouviens]

Also Westminster VI:

SNP 54
CON 20
LAB 16
LD 5

Which I think would be 58 SNP and Ian Murray.

Even better news for Indy is that the Tories seem to think sending more Tory cabinet ministers for North British photo-ops is the way to save the union. Good luck with that strategy. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

If the snp are so strong in the constituency vote then they will not win any of the list seats.

I agree with you on Indy list parties though, vote snp 1 Green 2. Leads to an independence majority at Holyrood but with a good opposition to the snp.

I think on the list vote people should just vote for the party they want elected.

[hibby rae]

If the snp are so strong in the constituency vote then they will not win any of the list seats.

I agree with you on Indy list parties though, vote snp 1 Green 2. Leads to an independence majority at Holyrood but with a good opposition to the snp.

Yep. In 2011 the SNP gained more seats than 2015, but received fewer votes in the constituency and list votes due to the way the system works. Better voting Green on your second if you want to see as strong a pro-independence majority as possible.

[Ozyhibby]

Yep. In 2011 the SNP gained more seats than 2015, but received fewer votes in the constituency and list votes due to the way the system works. Better voting Green on your second if you want to see as strong a pro-independence majority as possible.

Both votes SNP will get us a strong pro Indy majority.


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[Ozyhibby]

Sturgeon battering Davidson on FMQ’s.[emoji23]


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[marinello59]

Sturgeon battering Davidson on FMQ’s.[emoji23]


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You think? Evading the questions and replacing answers with party political spin. It looks like our First Minister has been taking lessons from the circus in Westminster. Depressing stuff .

[lapsedhibee]

You think? Evading the questions and replacing answers with party political spin. It looks like our First Minister has been taking lessons from the circus in Westminster. Depressing stuff .

The to-and-fro between Sturgeon and Tory leader is never that great - perhaps Sturgeon's visceral dislike of Tories gets in the way. Prefer the dialogue between Sturgeon and Leonard.

[marinello59]

The to-and-fro between Sturgeon and Tory leader is never that great - perhaps Sturgeon's visceral dislike of Tories gets in the way. Prefer the dialogue between Sturgeon and Leonard.

Agreed. Our parliament is generally better than what we heard in that exchange.

[Ozyhibby]

You think? Evading the questions and replacing answers with party political spin. It looks like our First Minister has been taking lessons from the circus in Westminster. Depressing stuff .

I do think. Davidson has been brought back specifically to bring about these types of exchanges. She needs to win them as well and in this case she didn’t.


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[Sir David Gray]

The to-and-fro between Sturgeon and Tory leader is never that great - perhaps Sturgeon's visceral dislike of Tories gets in the way. Prefer the dialogue between Sturgeon and Leonard.

I just can't take to Richard Leonard at all, I think he comes across as being uncomfortable in that environment and his delivery in exchanges like this is poor.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think on the list vote people should just vote for the party they want elected.

That's what I said. 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

Both votes SNP will get us a strong pro Indy majority.


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Second vote snp is a wasted vote based on the figures for the constituency vote.

[Keith_M]

I think on the list vote people should just vote for the party they want elected.


I actually think voting Green on the list vote is a useful thing to do as they are the only party that is willing to vote on actual issues, and not on their inbuilt hatred of the SNP.

They'll support whoever is in government if they agree with a policy and vote against if they don't.


A naive person might imagine that's how all MPs/MSPs should vote, but there you go.

[Ozyhibby]

Second vote snp is a wasted vote based on the figures for the constituency vote.

I just looked it up for Lothian and you are correct right enough. I’ll do first vote SNP and 2nd vote green. I won’t be going near any new YES party though.


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[lapsedhibee]

I just can't take to Richard Leonard at all, I think he comes across as being uncomfortable in that environment and his delivery in exchanges like this is poor.

Agree he's not a great performer, or even a performer. What he says doesn't depend on a braying support cast, though - he's grown on me because of that. As far as I've noticed, he doesn't descend into the ya-boo stuff that Davidson goaded Sturgeon into today. I don't think Davidson'll do well in the House of Lords at all. HoC would have been the place for her.

[marinello59]

I do think. Davidson has been brought back specifically to bring about these types of exchanges. She needs to win them as well and in this case she didn’t.


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I'll answer this one then bow out as I'm not sure why this is in the Independence thread.

Win? I'm not so sure any of them won but if Sturgeon fell into Davidson's trap then she can't claim any sort of victory can she? Neither of them covered themselves in glory. .
You spent a fair bit of yesterday trashing the u-turn on SQA awards so surely you can't be happy with her refusal to outline just what led her to that decision and instead throw pre-rehearsed political jibes at Davidson. (They were funny and I always like to see a Tory squirm but it didn't get the questions answered.)
Given that you are adamant that yesterday's u-turn was a political decision you must have been shouting at the radio / TV when she tried to portray it as strong leadership. That was almost comical as we all know the threat of a no confidence vote in Swinney unless the Greens got their way on that gave her more than a wee nudge.

[marinello59]

Amazing how support for independence has soared since Johnson first used the veto. It’s almost like Sturgeon knows what she is doing. Plan A working a treat.


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Sturgeon's patient approach has definitely been the right one, just slowly letting the pressure build. The PM's visit last week was proof that they know a good result in the Holyrood elections will make the demands for a referendum almost impossible to resist.

[Ozyhibby]

I'll answer this one then bow out as I'm not sure why this is in the Independence thread.

Win? I'm not so sure any of them won but if Sturgeon fell into Davidson's trap then she can't claim any sort of victory can she? Neither of them covered themselves in glory. .
You spent a fair bit of yesterday trashing the u-turn on SQA awards so surely you can't be happy with her refusal to outline just what led her to that decision and instead throw pre-rehearsed political jibes at Davidson. (They were funny and I always like to see a Tory squirm but it didn't get the questions answered.)
Given that you are adamant that yesterday's u-turn was a political decision you must have been shouting at the radio / TV when she tried to portray it as strong leadership. That was almost comical as we all know the threat of a no confidence vote in Swinney unless the Greens got their way on that gave her more than a wee nudge.

Just like the decision to do away with blended learning this week, yesterday’s exam decision was taken totally for political reasons. It’s because there are election coming up and there is no point upsetting parts of the electorate. It’s done now and people seem happy with the decision so I didn’t see much point in Davidson trying to find out the whys of that. If people are happy and the opposition got what they want then it won’t count a jot come the election.
Davidson is not offering an alternative though so there is no point me getting worked up about it.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Other polls snippets ...

Should be a ref:

- next year if the SNP get a majority, Yes 52 No 48
- in the next 5 years, Yes 56 No 44

Yes leads both in ABC1 (52-48) and C2DE (54-46)

Yes leads in under 65s (58-42) but is still massively behind with the oldies (35-65).

Surprising (to me at least), should hold a ref even if Westminster refuses, Yes 46, No 54. That's a pretty high militancy level.

[Hibrandenburg]

I do think. Davidson has been brought back specifically to bring about these types of exchanges. She needs to win them as well and in this case she didn’t.


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No, she got her ermine covered arse handed back to her on a plate.

[Curried]

No, she got her ermine covered arse handed back to her on a plate.

:agree:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1293520969513013249

[hibby rae]

Both votes SNP will get us a strong pro Indy majority.


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Not as strong as if the 2nd vote went to someone else like the Greens. If SNP win in the consistuency, their list vote isn't as valuable.

[ronaldo7]

Yeah we're gonna need as many bodies as possible to help stamp out all the Rangers bazzas after Indy.
No escape!

I wouldn't worry about the hun hordes. Most of the sane ones are coming across to yes. It's the dyed in the wool, wrapped in a Jack types who'll be left. You'll know the types. 😏

[Bristolhibby]

I wouldn't worry about the hun hordes. Most of the sane ones are coming across to yes. It's the dyed in the wool, wrapped in a Jack types who'll be left. You'll know the types. 😏

Can’t wait for that day. Time for “the peepul” to wake up and join the 21st Century. For too long there basked in the “privilege” of being white and Protestant. Something that would get you a long way in Scotland.

Times have changed and you and your flute playing, Military loving, God Bless the Queen, No Surrenderers will be left on the slag heap of history.

J

[Kato]

Can’t wait for that day. Time for “the peepul” to wake up and join the 21st Century. For too long there basked in the “privilege” of being white and Protestant. Something that would get you a long way in Scotland.

Times have changed and you and your flute playing, Military loving, God Bless the Queen, No Surrenderers will be left on the slag heap of history.

J

It'll be progress if they can see themselves into the 19th Century.

[Rocky]

.

There's a report button if you find a post offensive. I don't believe we're allowed to order other posters to remove posts.

[Curried]

I like many Hibbys are ex military and I am still military loving and a member of my Regimental Asociation. I find part of your post offensive. I accept it aimed at Rangers fans, unless you have served remove part of your comment

Whats wrong with BH's comment?

[Berwickhibby]

There's a report button if you find a post offensive. I don't believe we're allowed to order other posters to remove posts.

I have deleted my post and reported the original

[Moulin Yarns]

Whats wrong with BH's comment?

I fancy a bit of a scrap, maybe a cage fight between BH and BH :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

I fancy a bit of a scrap, maybe a cage fight between BH and BH :greengrin

😂😂😂😂😂 being a firearms certificate holder with 2 rifles.... I will win 😝

[Moulin Yarns]

😂😂😂😂😂 being a firearms certificate holder with 2 rifles.... I will win 😝

You know that Cage fighting is also described as unarmed combat, what are going to do wave the certificate at him? :greengrin

[G B Young]

You think? Evading the questions and replacing answers with party political spin. It looks like our First Minister has been taking lessons from the circus in Westminster. Depressing stuff .

:agree: That was always Sturgeon's approach to Davidson, the one Scottish opposition leader who could actually take her on. Turning to her stockpile of anti-Tory rhetoric is sufficient for those for whom independence is the be all and end all and are essentially prepared to wave away any criticism/failures of the SNP, but for those looking for genuine answers it's nothing more than party political spin as you say.

[CropleyWasGod]

I fancy a bit of a scrap, maybe a cage fight between BH and BH :greengrin

Oiled and naked.

[Curried]

I fancy a bit of a scrap, maybe a cage fight between BH and BH :greengrin

Excellent idea:-) I wasn't trolling but did notice the acronym problem just before you posted. :wink:

[Berwickhibby]

You know that Cage fighting is also described as unarmed combat, what are going to do wave the certificate at him? :greengrin

Lol....I did not agree to unarmed ..... I personally loathe violence...only use in defence :aok:

[1 8 7 5]

Lol....I did not agree to unarmed ..... I personally loathe violence...only use in defence :aok:

you "loathe" violence, yet served in the armed forces? Were you in the part of the armed forces that wasn't trained to kill? Perhaps your loathing came after you retired?

Apologies if I've got it wrong and you didnt serve in the armed forces.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lol....I did not agree to unarmed ..... I personally loathe violence...only use in defence :aok:

This is not a personal dig, but surely loathing violence and being in the armed forces is a bit of an oxymoron surely?

[Rocky]

I have deleted my post and reported the original

Ok I've deleted the quote. I would add that I see nothing wrong with the post you reported, I wasn't suggesting it deserved reported, just that there's a process to follow is all.

[Berwickhibby]

This is not a personal dig, but surely loathing violence and being in the armed forces is a bit of an oxymoron surely?

Not really, the British Armed Forces are a defence force. However my loathing of violence is down to 25 years dealing with victims of many levels of assaults

[Moulin Yarns]

Not really, the British Armed Forces are a defence force. However my loathing of violence is down to 25 years dealing with victims of many levels of assaults

Defending the UK? From what?

[1 8 7 5]

Defending the UK? From what?

Probably ISIS, or the Russians, or the Chinese, or the Iraqis, or the Syrians, or the Afghanis, or, or , or something :wink:

[Berwickhibby]

Defending the UK? From what?

From when I was in the Army, the Warsaw Pact, the threat in the 80s was considered genuine

[Moulin Yarns]

From when I was in the Army, the Warsaw Pact, the threat in the 80s was considered genuine

Are you a trident missile?

[Berwickhibby]

Are you a trident missile?

.?!! If you are asking me if I support Trident, no ...waste of money

[Moulin Yarns]

.?!! If you are asking me if I support Trident, no ...waste of money

The only defence against the Warsaw Pact was the nuclear deterrent, known as Trident.

[Jones28]

Defending the UK? From what?

Afghan Shepherds?

[Ozyhibby]

Not really, the British Armed Forces are a defence force. However my loathing of violence is down to 25 years dealing with victims of many levels of assaults

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]defence force[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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[1 8 7 5]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]defence force[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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:greengrin:agree:.. we only have defensive weapons.

true story fam

[Berwickhibby]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]defence force[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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Explain

[Ozyhibby]

Explain

What exactly was it defending in 2003 when it invaded Iraq?


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[Berwickhibby]

What exactly was it defending in 2003 when it invaded Iraq?


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being part of a NATO spearheaded operation... an operation I did not agree with I hasten to add

[1 8 7 5]

What exactly was it defending in 2003 when it invaded Iraq?


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I think the British Army were defending us in Iraq, by hitting them back first.

[Ozyhibby]

being part of a NATO spearheaded operation... an operation I did not agree with I hasten to add

NATO had no role in the Iraq war.


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[Moulin Yarns]

being part of a NATO spearheaded operation... an operation I did not agree with I hasten to add

I assume that you resigned on a point of principle because you didn't agree with the invasion of Iraq?

[Berwickhibby]

I assume that you resigned on a point of principle because you didn't agree with the invasion of Iraq?

I had been out the army long before the Iraq invasion

[Kato]

What exactly was it defending in 2003 when it invaded Iraq?




Oil supplies? :dunno:

[Bristolhibby]

Check out the comments on this!

I know it’s a right wing mouth piece. But JEEESUS!

https://order-order.com/2020/08/12/snp-on-course-for-record-majority-in-holyrood/

J

[Mibbes Aye]

Oiled and naked.

That is all very well and we appreciate the update but what is your view on the cagefight between BH and BH?

[Bostonhibby]

I fancy a bit of a scrap, maybe a cage fight between BH and BH :greengrinWhit?

I'm fighting no one[emoji6]

Certainly not on this thread.

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[Bristolhibby]

Oiled and naked.

Don’t need oiled. The sweat I’m currently sporting down here is ample lubricant.

J

[lapsedhibee]

Check out the comments on this!

I know it’s a right wing mouth piece. But JEEESUS!

https://order-order.com/2020/08/12/snp-on-course-for-record-majority-in-holyrood/

J

Hoot! :faf:

[Ozyhibby]

Check out the comments on this!

I know it’s a right wing mouth piece. But JEEESUS!

https://order-order.com/2020/08/12/snp-on-course-for-record-majority-in-holyrood/

J

Nice lot. Not.


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[Kato]

Check out the comments on this!

I know it’s a right wing mouth piece. But JEEESUS!

https://order-order.com/2020/08/12/snp-on-course-for-record-majority-in-holyrood/

J

Comments full of the usual intelligentsia.

[CropleyWasGod]

That is all very well and we appreciate the update but what is your view on the cagefight between BH and BH?

Damn. Did I say that out loud?

I also thought that it would be Bollocks Hanging against Bollocks Hanging....but didn't type it as I knew the swear filter would kick in.

[Berwickhibby]

The only defence against the Warsaw Pact was the nuclear deterrent, known as Trident.

Nope ....all the soldiers in Germany were considered front line defence of a Warsaw Pact invasion. Used regularly get crashed out in middle of the night for Ex Active Edge where troops used to deploy along East German border, bizarrely Russian and East German troops would have the same exercise on the same night.

[Moulin Yarns]

Nope ....all the soldiers in Germany were considered front line defence of a Warsaw Pact invasion. Used regularly get crashed out in middle of the night for Ex Active Edge where troops used to deploy along East German border, bizarrely Russian and East German troops would have the same exercise on the same night.

So, not only were you asleep on the job but you were sleeping with the enemy :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

So, not only were you asleep on the job but you were sleeping with the enemy :greengrin

Lol 😆 probably with duty free booze in the NAAFI and Cpls mess most of my service in Germany is still hazy lol 😂

[CloudSquall]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Imagineyourdad/status/1294928732868751361

What we need is a good unionist restaurant.

[ronaldo7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Imagineyourdad/status/1294928732868751361

What we need is a good unionist restaurant.

We've got them all over Scotland, and they even come with their own marching bands. You might find it a bit difficult to find them though.

[marinello59]

We've got them all over the central belt in Scotland, and they even come with their own marching bands. You might find it a bit difficult to find them though.

Fixed that for you. :greengrin
Apart from a few one man and his dog outposts the marching band type unionists don't exist away from the central belt.

[Berwickhibby]

Fixed that for you. :greengrin
Apart from a few one man and his dog outposts the marching band type unionists don't exist away from the central belt.

One of the few plus points from Covid 19 this year was I did not have those bigots bands marching passed my house, followed by the usual gaggle of Hun top wearing Neanderthals

[ronaldo7]

Fixed that for you. :greengrin
Apart from a few one man and his dog outposts the marching band type unionists don't exist away from the central belt.

You just don't know where they are. It's a secret.

I'm sure some on here could help to find them, from Berwick to Bon accord. 😉

[marinello59]

You just don't know where they are. It's a secret.

I'm sure some on here could help to find them, from Berwick to Bon accord. 😉

Hence my comment about one man and his dog style outposts. :wink:
I think the Orange Order's last attempt at a march in Aberdeen saw a rather small bunch of marchers forced to take refuge in a pub for their own safety. Outside of the central belt and your over own over fertile imagination the Orange Order is simply not a huge problem and barely exists in the North East, the Highlands or the Islands.

[Berwickhibby]

Hence my comment about one man and his dog style outposts. :wink:
I think the Orange Order's last attempt at a march in Aberdeen saw a rather small bunch of marchers forced to take refuge in a pub for their own safety. Outside of the central belt and your over own over fertile imagination the Orange Order is simply not a huge problem and barely exists in the North East, the Highlands or the Islands.

Unfortunately the Kingdom of Fife is full of Orange and Masonic lodges

[ronaldo7]

Hence my comment about one man and his dog style outposts. :wink:
I think the Orange Order's last attempt at a march in Aberdeen saw a rather small bunch of marchers forced to take refuge in a pub for their own safety. Outside of the central belt and your over own over fertile imagination the Orange Order is simply not a huge problem and barely exists in the North East, the Highlands or the Islands.

Reality piques my interest.

Berwick to Bon accord I tell ya.

[marinello59]

Unfortunately the Kingdom of Fife is full of Orange and Masonic lodges

There’s a huge difference between Masonic lodges and Orange Order lodges. They are not related. The areas I've mentioned have no problem though. That's the reality for those who live there.

[marinello59]

Reality piques my interest.

Berwick to Bon accord I tell ya.

Just keep throwing out the dog whistle stuff Ronnie. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Just keep throwing out the dog whistle stuff Ronnie. :wink:

Just keep denying they exist Jon.

[Berwickhibby]

There’s a huge difference between Masonic lodges and Orange Order lodges. They are not related.

I will take your word on that, I only know that the Orange Lodge have their meetings in the Masonic Lodge. Both are organisations I have had nothing to do with.

[marinello59]

I will take your word on that, I only know that the Orange Lodge have their meetings in the Masonic Lodge. Both are organisations I have had nothing to do with.

Nor me. The Orange Order are repellent, enough said. I wouldn't qualify to join any way, too left footed. :greengrin
The Masons do a fair bit of charity work but secret societies for grown ups never appealed to me.

[marinello59]

Just keep denying they exist Jon.

I ain't denying they exist. I'm saying they don't exist in any significant numbers or even have marches in the vast majority of our country, thank goodness. You know that already though.

[Kato]

I will take your word on that, I only know that the Orange Lodge have their meetings in the Masonic Lodge. Both are organisations I have had nothing to do with.Is this a particular lodge you are talking about?

The Orange Lodge is a banned organisation for any Masonic members, if there is a Masonic Lodge allowing the OO to meet on their premises then they would be oot.

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[Berwickhibby]

Is this a particular lodge you are talking about?

The Orange Lodge is a banned organisation for any Masonic members, if there is a Masonic Lodge allowing the OO to meet on their premises then they would be oot.

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I have seen them filing into the local Masonic lodge, bowlers on etc, I assumed they are Orange Lodge members..if they are something else I will stand corrected. To be honest I have no time for either.

[ronaldo7]

I ain't denying they exist. I'm saying they don't exist in any significant numbers or even have marches in the vast majority of our country, thank goodness. You know that already though.

So when I said "all over Scotland", you really didn't need to change my post. It was like you were denying they existed in your neck of the woods.😉

[lapsedhibee]

I have seen them filing into the local Masonic lodge, bowlers on etc, I assumed they are Orange Lodge members..if they are something else I will stand corrected. To be honest I have no time for either.

Could they be Masons?

[Berwickhibby]

Could they be Masons?

They could be, but I assosciate Bowler hats with the Orange Lodge.

[lapsedhibee]

They could be, but I assosciate Bowler hats with the Orange Lodge.

Gonna go out on a limb here and say they're Masons.

[Berwickhibby]

Gonna go out on a limb here and say they're Masons.

Then I will stand corrected, once lock down is over I will take a wee bit more interest and see. However Kelty does have the Orange March annually.

[Kato]

I have seen them filing into the local Masonic lodge, bowlers on etc, I assumed they are Orange Lodge members..if they are something else I will stand corrected. To be honest I have no time for either.Yes, same here. I do know as far as Masonry is concerned the OO is a proscribed organisation. Doesn't mean to say there aren't rogue lodges which are rife in the West.

Bowler hats:,) Not the nattiest.

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[Moulin Yarns]

Then I will stand corrected, once lock down is over I will take a wee bit more interest and see. However Kelty does have the Orange March annually.

If only you were a flatulent ring piece you could have spent 5 seconds on google to discover the difference between orange lodges and masonic lodges.

https://www.historyireland.com/volume-7/freemasonry-and-the-orange-order/

[Berwickhibby]

[QUOTE=Moulin Yarns;6272835]If only you were a flatulent ring piece you could have spent 5 seconds on google to discover the difference between orange lodges and masonic lodges.

https://www.historyireland.com/volume-7/freemasonry-and-the-orange-order

Ohh the keyboard warrior strikes again.... your humour knows no bounds ....perhaps the history of the various lodges have little to no interest to me...

[Moulin Yarns]

Unfortunately the Kingdom of Fife is full of Orange and Masonic lodges

No interest, apparently. 😂

[Moulin Yarns]

Then I will stand corrected, once lock down is over I will take a wee bit more interest and see. However Kelty does have the Orange March annually.

And you will take more interest in the future, apparently.🤔

[Ozyhibby]

New panel base poll has Yes at 55%.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200819/2d9417a65d10b78a0a04d4309f34be80.jpg

More evidence that plan A is working and the more the union becomes something you are not allowed to leave, the more Scots want to leave. Keep on refusing that referendum Boris.[emoji106]


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[Glory Lurker]

Here we go,
Here we go,
Here we go!
Here we go,
Here we go,
Here we go-o-o!

[CloudSquall]

https://mobile.twitter.com/SavantaComRes/status/1296062799089750017

Separate to the Panelbase poll there is this one from Savanta, 54 Yes 46 No

[lapsedhibee]

https://mobile.twitter.com/SavantaComRes/status/1296062799089750017

Separate to the Panelbase poll there is this one from Savanta, 54 Yes 46 No

Can't be long now before we start hearing about the wisdom of requiring supermajorities in constitutional referendums.

[The Modfather]

Genuine question, what are the thoughts of what looks like a trend of the public moving towards favouring independence by those who think we should remain in the union? Not why you think we’re better off in the union, more around whether you think we should have another referendum or what it is the union side need to do to stem the current trend?

[Ozyhibby]

This article is interesting not only because it tells of the panic in the UK govt but also because it makes clear that even those in favour of the union don’t know what the benefits of it are.

https://www.ft.com/content/2420501f-0304-4017-bfc5-46e56d325547


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[One Day Soon]

This article is interesting not only because it tells of the panic in the UK govt but also because it makes clear that even those in favour of the union don’t know what the benefits of it are.

https://www.ft.com/content/2420501f-0304-4017-bfc5-46e56d325547


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Does it? I read it and can't see that bit.

[Ozyhibby]

Does it? I read it and can't see that bit.

The whole article is about how they are struggling to sell the benefits of the union?


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[One Day Soon]

The whole article is about how they are struggling to sell the benefits of the union?


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Yeah, that's not the same thing as struggling to know what the benefits of it are. A **** salesman is not the same thing as a **** product.

[lord bunberry]

Yeah, that's not the same thing as struggling to know what the benefits of it are. A **** salesman is not the same thing as a **** product.
The problem with the union is it has **** salesman selling a **** product. I think even the most hardline unionist are beginning to realise it’s finished.

[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=lord bunberry;6274302]The problem with the union is it has **** salesman selling a **** product. I think even the most hardline unionist are beginning to realise it’s finished.[/QUOTE


Wishful thinking on your part. The biggest salesmen for independence recently have been Johnson and Cummings. No-one has been selling the Union at all which is actually a great product albeit that it could do with an upgrade.

[Rocky]

Wishful thinking on your part. The biggest salesmen for independence recently have been Johnson and Cummings. No-one has been selling the Union at all which is actually a great product albeit that it could do with an upgrade.
Wonder if we could upgrade little England to a group of countries in a union across Europe

[Ozyhibby]

[QUOTE=lord bunberry;6274302]The problem with the union is it has **** salesman selling a **** product. I think even the most hardline unionist are beginning to realise it’s finished.[/QUOTE


Wishful thinking on your part. The biggest salesmen for independence recently have been Johnson and Cummings. No-one has been selling the Union at all which is actually a great product albeit that it could do with an upgrade.

While Ireland continues to get richer than Scotland I’m struggling to see the benefits of the union. With or without good sales people.


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[CloudSquall]

I think the problem unionists have is that a lot of their cards were played in 2014.

Gordon Brown can't be relied on for an intervention, Scottish Labour are as good as dead and buried in Scotland now and a vow won't work second time around.

The EU card can't be played, I presume the argument will surround the currency (which the Yes side needs to shore up it's argument on) and the "UK internal market".

[Ozyhibby]

I think the problem unionists have is that a lot of their cards were played in 2014.

Gordon Brown can't be relied on for an intervention, Scottish Labour are as good as dead and buried in Scotland now and a vow won't work second time around.

The EU card can't be played, I presume the argument will surround the currency (which the Yes side needs to shore up it's argument on) and the "UK internal market".

I think it will be an independent Scottish currency pegged to the pound. Eventually we will likely join the Euro but that won’t be part of the campaign.
Joining the Euro won’t happen without a further referendum.

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[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=One Day Soon;6274308]

While Ireland continues to get richer than Scotland I’m struggling to see the benefits of the union. With or without good sales people.


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The strength of the redistribution mechanism within the UK, the strength of the UK Central Bank, the strength of the currency and the value of a frictionless border with our largest export market - the rest of the UK. Unions work, which is why we should have stayed in the EU.

[One Day Soon]

I think it will be an independent Scottish currency pegged to the pound. Eventually we will likely join the Euro but that won’t be part of the campaign.
Joining the Euro won’t happen without a further referendum.

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There is no such thing as an independent currency pegged to the pound, by definition it isn't independent. It means that the rUK will be setting our interest rates exclusively on the nasis of what is best for the rUK economy without us having any input and all our prices go up. The only people who benefit are those on big pensions and those who are debt free. We'd have a currency crisis in a heartbeat as we paid higher and higher premiums to try to hold on to Sterling.

[grunt]

The strength of the redistribution mechanism within the UK, the strength of the UK Central Bank, the strength of the currency and the value of a frictionless border with our largest export market - the rest of the UK. Unions work, which is why we should have stayed in the EU.
All of these are economic arguments for staying in the union. Brexit has shown that voters don't significantly consider economic arguments when looking at constitutional matters. Brexit is going to have a huge impact on the next independence referendum. Not only will it demonstrate that a small country like Scotland can thrive in the EU, it will also show that all the arguments for Brexit - sovereignty, etc., will work against the unionist cause.

[grunt]

It means that the rUK will be setting our interest rates exclusively on the basis of what is best for the rUK economy without us having any input and all our prices go up.You're going to have to explain that one to me.

[lord bunberry]

[QUOTE=lord bunberry;6274302]The problem with the union is it has **** salesman selling a **** product. I think even the most hardline unionist are beginning to realise it’s finished.[/QUOTE


Wishful thinking on your part. The biggest salesmen for independence recently have been Johnson and Cummings. No-one has been selling the Union at all which is actually a great product albeit that it could do with an upgrade.
I don’t think it’s wishful thinking on my part, you might not agree with independence but it’s inevitable now imo. Selling the union has proved to be an impossible task and the main party selling it are viewed as toxic by a majority of Scots.

[Ozyhibby]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;6274317]


The strength of the redistribution mechanism within the UK, the strength of the UK Central Bank, the strength of the currency and the value of a frictionless border with our largest export market - the rest of the UK. Unions work, which is why we should have stayed in the EU.

Ireland manages just fine without all those things? Why can’t we?


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[Callum_62]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;6274317]


The strength of the redistribution mechanism within the UK, the strength of the UK Central Bank, the strength of the currency and the value of a frictionless border with our largest export market - the rest of the UK. Unions work, which is why we should have stayed in the EU.Economic unions yes but why do we need to be tied to a political union?

I genuinely don't see the pros of a political union when one country dwarfs the rest

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[lord bunberry]

[QUOTE=One Day Soon;6274340]Economic unions yes but why do we need to be tied to a political union?

I genuinely don't see the pros of a political union when one country dwarfs the rest

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Because the economic argument would show that the smaller country in the union is subsiding the larger country. The political argument is already lost for the union, the economic argument has to be be put across in a far more professional way than it was the last time.

[Ozyhibby]

[QUOTE=Callum_62;6274467]
Because the economic argument would show that the smaller country in the union is subsiding the larger country. The political argument is already lost for the union, the economic argument has to be be put across in a far more professional way than it was the last time.

While laws are still made by the unelected Lords the UK will never be a democracy. Scotland has a chance to become a proper democracy. Economic argument should be secondary.


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[lord bunberry]

[QUOTE=lord bunberry;6274491]

While laws are still made by the unelected Lords the UK will never be a democracy. Scotland has a chance to become a proper democracy. Economic argument should be secondary.


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Whilst I agree completely I doubt the unelected House of Lords will be a factor for most voters. The economic case has to be credible.

[Ozyhibby]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;6274502]
Whilst I agree completely I doubt the unelected House of Lords will be a factor for most voters. The economic case has to be credible.

The economic case is the examples of similar size countries in Northern Europe who are all richer than us. If the union was so good, surely we would be doing better than at least one of them?


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[lord bunberry]

[QUOTE=lord bunberry;6274526]

The economic case is the examples of similar size countries in Northern Europe who are all richer than us. If the union was so good, surely we would be doing better than at least one of them?


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You’re preaching to the converted mate. The political and economic case is already made for me, I look at our similar sized neighbours and see every one of them doing considerably better than us. There’s talk of Scotland joining the Scandinavian alliance, Scandinavia or Westminster, I know which way of life I want for me and my children

[Moulin Yarns]

Because the economic argument would show that the smaller country in the union is subsiding the larger country. The political argument is already lost for the union, the economic argument has to be be put across in a far more professional way than it was the last time.



A brilliantly researched short piece on how Scotland benefits from the cash English tax payers send us in Scotland. Great contributions from Wee Liz in Falkirk, Big Tommy in Cumbernauld, Derek in Peterhead & Tina of Dundee. Share the truth. Thanks to @PhantomPower14 for this. https://t.co/kJrJLnDXMC

[JeMeSouviens]

The strength of the redistribution mechanism within the UK, the strength of the UK Central Bank, the strength of the currency and the value of a frictionless border with our largest export market - the rest of the UK. Unions work, which is why we should have stayed in the EU.

Barnett is not and never was a “redistribution mechanism”. Try selling that to voters in the north of england who are shafted by it.

[CloudSquall]

Can't be long now before we start hearing about the wisdom of requiring supermajorities in constitutional referendums.

Andrew Neil and George Galloway have already formed a tag team on Twitter demanding that the eligibility to vote be changed to include Scottish expats, presumably hoping desperately that Scottish people in England would vote no.

[degenerated]

Andrew Neil and George Galloway have already formed a tag team on Twitter demanding that the eligibility to vote be changed to include Scottish expats, presumably hoping desperately that Scottish people in England would vote no.

They seem to want it to be only be people born in Scotland and on UK electoral roll.

Michael Gove is on twitter punting this as an interesting question.

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[Ozyhibby]

They seem to want it to be only be people born in Scotland and on UK electoral roll.

Michael Gove is on twitter punting this as an interesting question.

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And what of Scot living in Australia etc? It’s a nonsense idea. If you want a say in Scotland’s future then you should live here.


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[ronaldo7]

Andrew Neil and George Galloway have already formed a tag team on Twitter demanding that the eligibility to vote be changed to include Scottish expats, presumably hoping desperately that Scottish people in England would vote no.

Anyone should be able to vote on Scottish independence. From anywhere in the world. They just have to live in Scotland.

Unionists trying to gerrymander some kind of blood and soil franchise without a hint of irony as they point the finger at the "nationalists"

Independence is normal.

The referendums Scotland act 2020 kind of covers it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Andrew Neil and George Galloway have already formed a tag team on Twitter demanding that the eligibility to vote be changed to include Scottish expats, presumably hoping desperately that Scottish people in England would vote no.

The corollary to that would be denying a vote to immigrants to Scotland including those from rUK. It is to Scotland’s credit that nobody has ever seriously entertained such nonsense.

[Ozyhibby]

The corollary to that would be denying a vote to immigrants to Scotland including those from rUK. It is to Scotland’s credit that nobody has ever seriously entertained such nonsense.

Indeed. I’m sure polling after the last ref showed Yes would have won in 2014 if only Scot born here had been allowed to vote.
It shows the difference between the two nationalisms that only one side are trying to make it about birth right.


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[Jack]

Just wait until Westminster comes up with more than 50%, or even 60% of the total electorate must vote yes for it to be binding!

[Rocky]

Just wait until Westminster comes up with more than 50%, or even 60% of the total electorate must vote yes for it to be binding!
To be honest, I do think that there's an argument that fundamental constitutional change should require a super majority of some sort (only of actual voters though, not of the total electorate). However there is a counter argument that any status quo option has an in built advantage as a result of inertia, and therefore 50% is fair. And in any case the point is moot as there can be no justification for implementing a super majority rule for Scottish independence when such a narrow margin in the Brexit vote has been taken as a mandate to do whatever on earth they like in respect of leaving the EU, despite all the promises that were made before the referendum.

[lapsedhibee]

there can be no justification for implementing a super majority rule for Scottish independence when such a narrow margin in the Brexit vote has been taken as a mandate to do whatever on earth they like in respect of leaving the EU, despite all the promises that were made before the referendum.
The argument for supermajority will shirley be 'We don't want another deeply divisive experience like the one in 2016'.

[Ozyhibby]

To be honest, I do think that there's an argument that fundamental constitutional change should require a super majority of some sort (only of actual voters though, not of the total electorate). However there is a counter argument that any status quo option has an in built advantage as a result of inertia, and therefore 50% is fair. And in any case the point is moot as there can be no justification for implementing a super majority rule for Scottish independence when such a narrow margin in the Brexit vote has been taken as a mandate to do whatever on earth they like in respect of leaving the EU, despite all the promises that were made before the referendum.

There is no way now that any change from the 2014 system would be allowed.


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[Moulin Yarns]

If only 😂

https://t.co/XmqmHs9Inc

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200821/1bad35f792681708526d96ef4de3b6db.jpg
Gove assembling a dream team of himself, George Galloway, Danny Alexander and Jack McConnell. Looks like the union is safe for now.


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[The Modfather]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200821/1bad35f792681708526d96ef4de3b6db.jpg
Gove assembling a dream team of himself, George Galloway, Danny Alexander and Jack McConnell. Looks like the union is safe for now.


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What’s the bet the plan they come up with is to keep asking the same question in different ways as to what currency mortgage payments will be paid in? 🤔

[JeMeSouviens]

What’s the bet the plan they come up with is to keep asking the same question in different ways as to what currency mortgage payments will be paid in? 🤔

Money worries are by far their best weapon. It’s a particularly nice irony that Johnson, Gove and of course Dom have been the principal underminers of that message in the last few years but they’ll still go back to it and rightly so. It’s their only hope.

[SHODAN]

Westminster pulled that ethnic nationalism **** with the EU Referendum - and indeed, every general election - and they will not have their way here.

If you live in Scotland, regardless of where you're from, you have equal enfranchisement to everyone else. We're proud of it. They can **** off.

[marinello59]

Westminster pulled that ethnic nationalism **** with the EU Referendum - and indeed, every general election - and they will not have their way here.

If you live in Scotland, regardless of where you're from, you have equal enfranchisement to everyone else. We're proud of it. They can **** off.

The outrage over this has come from a Tweet by Andrew Neil. Since clarified in an exchange with Kirsty Blackman. He's still a dick though. :greengrin

https://twitter.com/KirstySNP/status/1296388940522491909?s=20

[JeMeSouviens]

The outrage over this has came from a Tweet by Andrew Neil. Since clarified in an exchange with Kirsty Blackman. He's still a dick though. :greengrin

https://twitter.com/KirstySNP/status/1296388940522491909?s=20

Not sure what Gove, Neil and Galloway are up to here? The obvious answer is they’ve done some focus grouping or private polling and found a majority for the union among rUK based Scots.

However, given the unsavoury sleekitness of all 3 it may be that it’s an attempt to inject some ugly ethnic nationalism into the debate hoping it’s picked up on both sides. The aim may be to “poison the well” to the extent that the subject of indy becomes a turn off for many?

[Moulin Yarns]

I wonder who will pay the interest??


Government debt has topped £2 trillion for the first time and now stands at 100.5 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP). National debt as a percentage of GDP has increased 20.4 per cent over the past 12 months to rise above 100 per cent of GDP for the first time since 1961.

[marinello59]

Not sure what Gove, Neil and Galloway are up to here? The obvious answer is they’ve done some focus grouping or private polling and found a majority for the union among rUK based Scots.

However, given the unsavoury sleekitness of all 3 it may be that it’s an attempt to inject some ugly ethnic nationalism into the debate hoping it’s picked up on both sides. The aim may be to “poison the well” to the extent that the subject of indy becomes a turn off for many?

I’m quite relaxed about it. If they are talking about who are eligible to vote then they are all but conceding that a referendum is inevitable.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure what Gove, Neil and Galloway are up to here? The obvious answer is they’ve done some focus grouping or private polling and found a majority for the union among rUK based Scots.

However, given the unsavoury sleekitness of all 3 it may be that it’s an attempt to inject some ugly ethnic nationalism into the debate hoping it’s picked up on both sides. The aim may be to “poison the well” to the extent that the subject of indy becomes a turn off for many?

The polling they did was ask Mr Galloway, Mr Neil and Mr Gove, all scots living in the rUK. And got a return of 95% in favour.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m quite relaxed about it. If they are talking about who are eligible to vote then they are all but conceding that a referendum is inevitable.

Yip, I think they know deep down that refusing a referendum is not a sustainable position.


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[SHODAN]

The outrage over this has came from a Tweet by Andrew Neil. Since clarified in an exchange with Kirsty Blackman. He's still a dick though. :greengrin

https://twitter.com/KirstySNP/status/1296388940522491909?s=20

Phew. Good.

[CropleyWasGod]

The polling they did was ask Mr Galloway, Mr Neil and Mr Gove, all scots living in the rUK. And got a return of 95% in favour.

How the **** does a poll like that get 95%? 😆

[Moulin Yarns]

How the **** does a poll like that get 95%? 😆

Trust an accountant to spot the flaw :not worth

[Mibbes Aye]

How the **** does a poll like that get 95%? 😆

Maybe just a really broad margin of error....