Scottish Independence

[Beefster]

I'm sure it's been argued to death in the previous however many pages - have a wee look and I'm sure it's covered, albeit presumably not to your satisfaction.

Yeah, IMHO, it's one of these myths that were repeatedly trotted out pre-referendum but that don't actually stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny. Hey ho.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Well aye I know but we all have our own views. It is a fact that all the junkies in my street had yes stickers on their windows!

An ignorant generalisation from a No voter in bed with the far right facists of the Orange Order, the National Front, the BNP and the closet racism of UKIP and Britain First which of course is an equally ignorant generalisation.

My circle of company directors , teachers and lawyers mostly voted Yes as I dare say other peoples similar circles mostly voted No.

U really should try to broaden your outlook if you think the referendum was anything to do with anti Englishness as the people of Scotland Yes or No have moved on to a different political planet to your puerile nonsense.

[johnbc70]

Question 6.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/20/scottish-independence-lord-ashcroft-poll


http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29443603

Sorry if the links don't work, I'm on my mobile and sometimes they're posted as links and sometimes not. If not you can copy and paste.

Sure we covered this about 1000 posts ago. Question 6 in the Ashcroft poll was based on 3 reasons as to why people would vote No and they were asked to rank them, and 25% ranked that fact that they could vote No but still get extra powers for the Scottish Parliament. So first of all it was based on 3 statements, not 30 or 300 but only 3, and people were asked to rank them so to suggest it swayed 25% of total No voters is nonsense and you probably know that.

In the BBC article then I assume you are referring to this part?

"The 45% who voted for independence along with a substantial proportion of the 55% who didn't because they were convinced by "the vow", add up to make a powerful majority for big change, reasons the SNP"

In which case look at the last 3 words. So will take it all with a pinch of salt.

[steakbake]

Yeah, IMHO, it's one of these myths that were repeatedly trotted out pre-referendum but that don't actually stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny. Hey ho.

That's right - a myth to cover for my virulent anti-Englishness?

Doubt anything would convince you at all - in the same way I won't be convinced the status quo. I know your political leanings, we've been discussing them for long enough! So I don't see the point in being challenged to convince someone who won't be convinced.

[MyJo]

What did the poll suggest? That 25% of people, which was over 500,000 people, either changed from Yes to No or made them made more No. Can't believe they went from Yes to No otherwise why did the polls always show No in the lead and if it made them more No well then they were No already.

Polls suggested that around 15% of people were still undecided in the weeks before the referendum before the vow was made. That's roughly 600,000 people who hadn't ruled out completely voting yes when suddenly an ex-pm is in the news "promising" that if we vote no we will be given extra powers and that all the Westminster parties agreed with his timetable.

If 200,000 of those undecided voters had chosen yes at the ballot box rather than no then yes would have won and IMO browns " promise" will have played a significant part in swaying enough undecided people to vote no just a week before the vote took place

[johnbc70]

Polls suggested that around 15% of people were still undecided in the weeks before the referendum before the vow was made. That's roughly 600,000 people who hadn't ruled out completely voting yes when suddenly an ex-pm is in the news "promising" that if we vote no we will be given extra powers and that all the Westminster parties agreed with his timetable.

If 200,000 of those undecided voters had chosen yes at the ballot box rather than no then yes would have won and IMO browns " promise" will have played a significant part in swaying enough undecided people to vote no just a week before the vote took place

We were referring to the Ashcroft poll which suggested nothing like that at all. Where is the evidence that up to 200,000 undecided made their mind up on Brown's 'promise'? Maybe people had lots of other reasons and paid no attention to what Brown said.

[JeMeSouviens]

I find that very hard to believe, impossible in fact - but I'd be willing to look at the poll you posted. Can't just now though as my phone won't let me copy and paste.

Move on - in your case stop posting digs on hibs.net at no voters based on your blinkered views as a yes voter.... Most of us have lost a fair degree of interest in the debate now that the vote has passed. Find a more constructive way of fighting your fight.

:agree:

Moving on and being constructive is the name of the game now. For Yes folk, I think that means:

- putting as much pressure on getting as much devo as possible, let's inch a bit further down the slippery slope.

- make the powers work so as to give folk confidence to make the (much smaller) jump when we next get the chance (I expect 10+ years but "events" and all that).

- get right behind EV4EL. Anything that breaks the links between Scotland and Westminster is a good thing. Making all Scottish (but especially Labour) MPs second class part timers at Westminster (that are automatically barred from high office) makes it much more likely that first rank performers will stay at Holyrood. Not only will this benefit the workings of the Scottish Parliament and Government, if they stay at Holyrood, they'll want more power at Holyrood. So the pressure builds again on that slippery slope.

Moving towards Devo-max means reframing the debate so that rather than thinking what powers might we devolve, the default becomes needing a solid justification not to devolve.

[MyJo]

We were referring to the Ashcroft poll which suggested nothing like that at all. Where is the evidence that up to 200,000 undecided made their mind up on Brown's 'promise'? Maybe people had lots of other reasons and paid no attention to what Brown said.

If they had made their minds up for other reasons and not what brown said then why were there still so many undecideds a couple of weeks before the referendum?

[johnbc70]

If they had made their minds up for other reasons and not what brown said then why were there still so many undecideds a couple of weeks before the referendum?

Who knows, but to suggest up to 200,000 were solely swayed by what Brown said cannot be backed up with any evidence. People had many reasons to vote No, probably personal to them and maybe they came to the forefront when they were in the polling booth.

[Rasta_Hibs]

An ignorant generalisation from a No voter in bed with the far right facists of the Orange Order, the National Front, the BNP and the closet racism of UKIP and Britain First which of course is an equally ignorant generalisation.

My circle of company directors , teachers and lawyers mostly voted Yes as I dare say other peoples similar circles mostly voted No.

U really should try to broaden your outlook if you think the referendum was anything to do with anti Englishness as the people of Scotland Yes or No have moved on to a different political planet to your puerile nonsense.

To be honest we could chat about the economy all day and the NO vote would win the debate. You may not have any anti-English views but there were thousands who did! Salmond with is team Scotland chat didn't help. Even now as democracy has spoken, the people of Scotland have spoken a lot of the Yes voters cant accept it, they are now the 45% etc.

Salmond then makes more threats about declaring independence without a referendum! That's your pied piper for you, your glorious leader!! ha ha

[Moulin Yarns]

How would that have worked? In what way would I have had more of a say than I do now?

Well, IMHO there is a choice, join a progressive party that listens to the electorate, or stay with the Scottish (sic) Labour Party, and accept the lot as told by the British (sic) Labour Party.

[steakbake]

To be honest we could chat about the economy all day and the NO vote would win the debate. You may not have any anti-English views but there were thousands who did! Salmond with is team Scotland chat didn't help. Even now as democracy has spoken, the people of Scotland have spoken a lot of the Yes voters cant accept it, they are now the 45% etc.

Salmond then makes more threats about declaring independence without a referendum! That's your pied piper for you, your glorious leader!! ha ha


Don't mention Scotland - it might make you a racist...

The UK economy is a house of cards that is propped up by massive debt cycles. We will be here again at some stage in the future.

[ronaldo7]

To be honest we could chat about the economy all day and the NO vote would win the debate. You may not have any anti-English views but there were thousands who did! Salmond with is team Scotland chat didn't help. Even now as democracy has spoken, the people of Scotland have spoken a lot of the Yes voters cant accept it, they are now the 45% etc.

Salmond then makes more threats about declaring independence without a referendum! That's your pied piper for you, your glorious leader!! ha ha

Many I have spoken with have accepted and are moving onto the next phase, and within the 45 we now have a broad base of people ready to challenge the status quo. They will not go back into their box so you'd better get used to it:greengrin

On your previous post about the anti Englishness...My aunt, niece, and her boyfriend all English voted YES.:rolleyes:

[Peevemor]

To be honest we could chat about the economy all day and the NO vote would win the debate. You may not have any anti-English views but there were thousands who did! Salmond with is team Scotland chat didn't help. Even now as democracy has spoken, the people of Scotland have spoken a lot of the Yes voters cant accept it, they are now the 45% etc.

Salmond then makes more threats about declaring independence without a referendum! That's your pied piper for you, your glorious leader!! ha ha

:hmmm:

[The Baldmans Comb]

To be honest we could chat about the economy all day and the NO vote would win the debate. You may not have any anti-English views but there were thousands who did! Salmond with is team Scotland chat didn't help. Even now as democracy has spoken, the people of Scotland have spoken a lot of the Yes voters cant accept it, they are now the 45% etc.

Salmond then makes more threats about declaring independence without a referendum! That's your pied piper for you, your glorious leader!! ha ha

It really doesnt do you any favours sticking to your continual racist platform of thousands of Scottish people being anti English.

Travel around a little and expand your horizons and you will find that the vast majority of Scottish people admire England and her achivements immensely and rightly so.

The people are kind, friendly,incredibly tolerant and have in built inner self confidence few other countries can emulate meaning they punch well above their weight for a country so relatively small.

These feelings are reciprocal as it is very hard to find English people who have a bad word to say about Scotland or its hardy inventive people with its abundance of natural resources.

Two nations living side by side together in mutual self respect was what the referendum was all about which is something the 45% certainly recognised as of course did many of the No's as that is just what normal countries do throughout the world.

It's a big world out there and my many English friends and colleauges both Yes and No really wouldn't recognise the racist Scotland you continually try to portray.

[allmodcons]

So I have to agree with everything every No voter says now...?!

I would suggest there were infact some Yes voters that in the words of the post I replied to 'did **** all about it' on the 18th. Why was turnout so low in the 2 cities that voted Yes? Again in the context of the post that I was replying to then I would suggest the No voters did do 'something' on the 18th September so the complete opposite of what was being suggested, they came out and voiced their considerable view that Scotland should not be an independent country and over 2 million of them did, not the actions of a group of people who will do '****' all about things surely?

I'm sorry but this is just arrant nonsense. How could a Yes voter be classed as having "done **** about it". By definition a 'Yes voter'' would HAVE voted Yes.

For what its worth, I expect the main reason for the turnout in Glasgow and Dundee being lower than some other areas has something to do with the fact that a lot of people in these areas feel completely disenfranchised by politics per se.

You appear to be suggesting that these people were Yes supporters who couldn't be bothered coming out to to vote, yet have absolutely zero evidence to support your case.

Yes won in West Dunbartonshire where the turnout was 88%. What, exactly, is the point you are trying to make?

[NAE NOOKIE]

I think it is as some who fought in that war are still alive. Plus it's the same ideology independence at any cost. No matter what. The same ideology that skips past this part of the snp history but will call a referendum on the anniversary of Bannockburn. It's history is anti English and to be honest I see a lot of anti English feeling from a large amount of their support today.

SNP are not left wing. Their sole reason for existing I'd to separate from England. Their plans were a joke and I'm so glad we are not right now picking up the pieces of their masterplan for independence.

I'd put a bigger majority of working people voted no! I know it will be shouted down here but almost every junky, i knew was staunch yes!! Reason mostly was to **** the English and get it up the tories!!!

These are the main reasons I voted yes. I saw the Scottish government was building a hundred million pound railway line from Edinburgh to nowhere. To some that seemed strange, but I got it straight away. Galashiels is a perfect location for an extermination camp, and they need rail lines. At last, a solution to the English problem and it looked like the SNP were trying to deliver it.

Me and all my friends hate the fkng English. I cry myself to sleep every night in case they find out my brother lives with an English woman and their two kids ( my nephews FFS ) were born in Liverpool. I don't speak to him ... bringing shame on my family !!!

I admit that I am a junkie ..... but I need my fix to help me forget that Scotland is crushed under the yoke of the English invader. Thank goodness for Mel Gibson, who proved all the lying history books wrong with a true representation of Scottish history ... I watch Braveheart every night to remind me.

I am sorry to learn that everybody in the SNP was a Nazi in the 40s though ... not right wing enough for me.

[Beefster]

That's right - a myth to cover for my virulent anti-Englishness?

Why are you asking me? Have I ever suggested anything remotely close to that?

Seems like I've been right to steer clear, most of the time, of these threads post-result.

[allmodcons]

I think it is as some who fought in that war are still alive. Plus it's the same ideology independence at any cost. No matter what. The same ideology that skips past this part of the snp history but will call a referendum on the anniversary of Bannockburn. It's history is anti English and to be honest I see a lot of anti English feeling from a large amount of their support today.

SNP are not left wing. Their sole reason for existing I'd to separate from England. Their plans were a joke and I'm so glad we are not right now picking up the pieces of their masterplan for independence.

I'd put a bigger majority of working people voted no! I know it will be shouted down here but almost every junky, i knew was staunch yes!! Reason mostly was to **** the English and get it up the tories!!!


As I said it's an ideology independence at any cost. Back then it was in bed with the Nazis. Today it's admiring Putin and threatening to bump our national debt. Stand behind that lot all you want. I'm glad the majority seen through it.


Well aye I know but we all have our own views. It is a fact that all the junkies in my street had yes stickers on their windows!

I thought you were supposed to happy that a No vote 'carried the day' on the 18th September 2014, but your posts just get more bitter and twisted by the day.

Your line about junkies and yes stickers says a lot about you as an individual.

Bob Marley will be turning in his grave.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I thought you were supposed to happy that a No vote 'carried the day' on the 18th September 2014, but your posts just get more bitter and twisted by the day.

Your line about junkies and yes stickers says a lot about you as an individual.

Bob Marley will be turning in his grave.

I didn't ask them to take them down! I still speak to the Junkies in my street but im not going listen to them about the vote!

Im sure Bob has more pressing issues on his mind if he is still a conscious spirit! haha

[Gus]

To be honest we could chat about the economy all day and the NO vote would win the debate. You may not have any anti-English views but there were thousands who did! Salmond with is team Scotland chat didn't help. Even now as democracy has spoken, the people of Scotland have spoken a lot of the Yes voters cant accept it, they are now the 45% etc.

Salmond then makes more threats about declaring independence without a referendum! That's your pied piper for you, your glorious leader!! ha ha

Spot on Rasta

[Rasta_Hibs]

Spot on Rasta

Thank you!

The thought police on here might not agree with anything I say but at least you do lol :)

[johnbc70]

I'm sorry but this is just arrant nonsense. How could a Yes voter be classed as having "done **** about it". By definition a 'Yes voter'' would HAVE voted Yes.

For what its worth, I expect the main reason for the turnout in Glasgow and Dundee being lower than some other areas has something to do with the fact that a lot of people in these areas feel completely disenfranchised by politics per se.

You appear to be suggesting that these people were Yes supporters who couldn't be bothered coming out to to vote, yet have absolutely zero evidence to support your case.

Yes won in West Dunbartonshire where the turnout was 88%. What, exactly, is the point you are trying to make?

Ok not a Yes voter but a Yes supporter, you knew what I meant. Just saying if the turnout was higher in these cities maybe it would have made a difference. Please remember the context of the replies, I was replying to a post that said No voters would do '****' all when actually the opposite was true and maybe Yes supporters could have done more like bothered to vote.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Thank you!

The thought police on here might not agree with anything I say but at least you do lol :)

Ach .... folk get a bit miffed when they are lumped in with Nazis, xenophobes and junkies. Nobody is denying you the right to an opinion Rasta ...... they are just exercising their right to say your opinion is pish.

I mean ..... if you think folk who don't agree with you are "thought police" rather than just people voicing a contrary opinion, why bother giving us your opinion at all.

[allmodcons]

Ach .... folk get a bit miffed when they are lumped in with Nazis, xenophobes and junkies. Nobody is denying you the right to an opinion Rasta ...... they are just exercising their right to say your opinion is pish.

I mean ..... if you think folk who don't agree with you are "thought police" rather than just people voicing a contrary opinion, why bother giving us your opinion at all.

Class!

[allmodcons]

Ok not a Yes voter but a Yes supporter, you knew what I meant. Just saying if the turnout was higher in these cities maybe it would have made a difference. Please remember the context of the replies, I was replying to a post that said No voters would do '****' all when actually the opposite was true and maybe Yes supporters could have done more like bothered to vote.


You still don't get it do you? You are making an assumption that those who couldn't be bothered to vote were Yes supporters!
Where is your evidence to support this bland assertion?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Ok not a Yes voter but a Yes supporter, you knew what I meant. Just saying if the turnout was higher in these cities maybe it would have made a difference. Please remember the context of the replies, I was replying to a post that said No voters would do '****' all when actually the opposite was true and maybe Yes supporters could have done more like bothered to vote.

Utter presumption ..... how do you know that the majority of people who didn't vote were Yes supporters. You could just as easily make the case that the areas where the Yes vote carried the day did so because the No voters failed to come out.

In fact .... Because the areas where No won had higher turn outs than the Yes areas surely a logical conclusion is that the lower turn out in the likes of Glasgow contributed to Yes winning ...... ergo, it was the No supporters who failed to show.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Ach .... folk get a bit miffed when they are lumped in with Nazis, xenophobes and junkies. Nobody is denying you the right to an opinion Rasta ...... they are just exercising their right to say your opinion is pish.

I mean ..... if you think folk who don't agree with you are "thought police" rather than just people voicing a contrary opinion, why bother giving us your opinion at all.

Its more the tone!

Yon guy above saying it shows what kind of person I am. Meaning because I think differently then im not a decent person. That I why I used the term thought police haha

Its not me who lumps you in with them you choose to do that all by yourself (tongue in cheek) lol

Just because the SNP history will show a sympathy with the Nazis and I noticed a lot of xenophobic remarks coming from a lot of YES supporters and all the junkies in my street had Yes stickers doesn't mean you all YES voters are the same- but to totally dismiss it as un true an non-existent well I wont accept it as I have seen it differently.

To say all Yes votes are the above is absurd!! About as absurd as the YES voters thinking they are freedom fighters and the only ones concerned with the poor and needy.

To me if it went YES then it was the poor and needy that were going to get hammered the most - That helped me to vote No.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well aye I know but we all have our own views. It is a fact that all the junkies in my street had yes stickers on their windows!

Here's a wee question for you, How do you know that those with yes stickers on their windows are junkies? Or put another way, how do you know only junkies had yes stickers?

Either that is a hell of a generalisation regarding Junkies, or a generalisation of yes supporters.

Ach, dinnae bother answering, I know the answer, You went round all the doors of your clients and gave them all yes stickers with their supplies.

That is the only possible answer to knowing for
a fact that all the junkies in my street had yes stickers on their windows!

[NAE NOOKIE]

Its more the tone!

Yon guy above saying it shows what kind of person I am. Meaning because I think differently then im not a decent person. That I why I used the term thought police haha

Its not me who lumps you in with them you choose to do that all by yourself (tongue in cheek) lol

Just because the SNP history will show a sympathy with the Nazis and I noticed a lot of xenophobic remarks coming from a lot of YES supporters and all the junkies in my street had Yes stickers doesn't mean you all YES voters are the same- but to totally dismiss it as un true an non-existent well I wont accept it as I have seen it differently.

To say all Yes votes are the above is absurd!! About as absurd as the YES voters thinking they are freedom fighters and the only ones concerned with the poor and needy.

To me if it went YES then it was the poor and needy that were going to get hammered the most - That helped me to vote No.

Its this stuff that annoys folk though Rasta.

Nobody is denying that some idiots are anti English ...... you point it out though. I for one saw very little of that ... in fact none of that.

The SNP / Nazi connection was 70 odd years ago, tenuous though it is you brought it up .... why, if not to annoy folk.

As for junkies .... what relevance that is to any argument, apart from to provoke annoyance.

If you want people to see you as a decent person the way to do that is not by inference to suggest they are of the same mind as mass murderers, bigots, or mindless idiots.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Its this stuff that annoys folk though Rasta.

Nobody is denying that some idiots are anti English ...... you point it out though. I for one saw very little of that ... in fact none of that.

The SNP / Nazi connection was 70 odd years ago, tenuous though it is you brought it up .... why, if not to annoy folk.

As for junkies .... what relevance that is to any argument, apart from to provoke annoyance.

If you want people to see you as a decent person the way to do that is not by inference to suggest they are of the same mind as mass murderers, bigots, or mindless idiots.

True I accept that!

If I am honest I was repaying my annoyance from being branded not a true Scot for voting no! - Anyway lets move Im no adding anything but annoyance lol

[One Day Soon]

Ach .... folk get a bit miffed when they are lumped in with Nazis, xenophobes and junkies. Nobody is denying you the right to an opinion Rasta ...... they are just exercising their right to say your opinion is pish.

I mean ..... if you think folk who don't agree with you are "thought police" rather than just people voicing a contrary opinion, why bother giving us your opinion at all.


Except when its Gordon Brown, because then it is ok to label him as a potential Scottish Quisling - a man whose notoriety derives from his collaboration with the Nazis including the deportation of Norwegian Jews to the death camps?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Except when its Gordon Brown, because then it is ok to label him as a potential Scottish Quisling - a man whose notoriety derives from his collaboration with the Nazis including the deportation of Norwegian Jews to the death camps?

There are a few idiots in both camps going to ridiculous extremes to push their cause who hopefully in a few weeks time will step back and realise they went too far.

None of my posts on this subject are in support of two wrongs making a right.

[One Day Soon]

There are a few idiots in both camps going to ridiculous extremes to push their cause who hopefully in a few weeks time will step back and realise they went too far.

None of my posts on this subject are in support of two wrongs making a right.


That's fair enough.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Except when its Gordon Brown, because then it is ok to label him as a potential Scottish Quisling - a man whose notoriety derives from his collaboration with the Nazis including the deportation of Norwegian Jews to the death camps?


Make a deliberately offensive or provocative online posting with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.

Repeatedly making the same point over and over again.
Hibs.net definitions of trolling.


Trolling is repeating the same statements over and over again. Funnily enough, trolls are Norwegian too, but nobody accuses trolls of being Nazis.

So, why are you going over old ground, when the use of the word Quisling has been discussed at length on here? IIRC you didn't win many supporters over to your point of view, the last time.

I can understand why you would be upset about people calling Brown a traitor - that's subjective. But to be upset at him being called a Nazi is easily remedied by objective measures, such as dictionaries.

The word has been part of the language for many years. Most people would understand the word to mean "traitor". They would not take it to mean "Nazi".

If most people used it in the context you suggest, it would be in dictionaries. Either you are wrong, or the dictionaries are wrong.

Quislings notoriety stems from the fact that he sold out all of his people, not just Jews. The leader of a country who sold out to his country's enemies - do you see why the term would be used by people who disagree with Brown?

Nobody has suggested Brown was a Nazi, just a traitor. If you cant take the analogy then you're being a bit precious IMO.

It's one thing to carry insults with you in your baggage, but when the insults are due to your own misconceptions its a bit silly.

Its fun to have banter and heated debate, but come on mate - play the game. You're way out of line here IMO.

[MyJo]

Except when its Gordon Brown, because then it is ok to label him as a potential Scottish Quisling - a man whose notoriety derives from his collaboration with the Nazis including the deportation of Norwegian Jews to the death camps?

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/quisling

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/quisling?s=t

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/quisling

http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/quisling?showCookiePolicy=true

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quisling

Calling someone a Quisling is to call them a traitor, not to compare them to the individual the term is derived from or the eventual outcome of his treachery.

Its like trying to reprimand someone for calling thier Dyson Vacuum Cleaner a "Hoover".

[Scottie]

Except when its Gordon Brown, because then it is ok to label him as a potential Scottish Quisling - a man whose notoriety derives from his collaboration with the Nazis including the deportation of Norwegian Jews to the death camps?

FFS are you still going on about this.
Was this point not flogged to death about 30 odd pages ago ? :confused:

[Hibrandenburg]

Except when its Gordon Brown, because then it is ok to label him as a potential Scottish Quisling - a man whose notoriety derives from his collaboration with the Nazis including the deportation of Norwegian Jews to the death camps?

This kind of post makes it difficult to take you seriously and questions your motivation on holding the views you do.

Just saying like.

[Beefster]

How many folk need to pull ODS up over exactly the same point? I think the first (and possibly second) post pretty much covered every single argument that can be made about ODS's point. Let ODS respond, if he desires. Like it or not, a lot of folk didn't participate in any meaningful way in this thread before the referendum (and its even more obvious post-result) because someone posts something that might not be 100% fawning of the case for independence and you get a number of Yes supporters posting and all making the same point. I've called it a 'circle jerk' a few times in the past and I think that's a fairly good description of it.

Incidentally, if trolling is defined as repeatedly making the same point or making offensive/controversial posts with the aim of provoking a response or upsetting another poster, 99% of posters, including me, are guilty of trolling. FFS, this very thread has been mainly trolling using that definition.

[ronaldo7]

How many folk need to pull ODS up over exactly the same point? I think the first (and possibly second) post pretty much covered every single argument that can be made about ODS's point. Let ODS respond, if he desires. Like it or not, a lot of folk didn't participate in any meaningful way in this thread before the referendum (and its even more obvious post-result) because someone posts something that might not be 100% fawning of the case for independence and you get a number of Yes supporters posting and all making the same point. I've called it a 'circle jerk' a few times in the past and I think that's a fairly good description of it.

Incidentally, if trolling is defined as repeatedly making the same point or making offensive/controversial posts with the aim of provoking a response or upsetting another poster, 99% of posters, including me, are guilty of trolling. FFS, this very thread has been mainly trolling using that definition.

To be fair, It's him (ODS) that keeps bringing it back up from time to time.

[Betty Boop]

Scottish Councils are using the voters roll to chase Poll tax arrears. That should stop thousands of poor people from ever voting again.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/councils-use-referendum-roll-to-find-tax-dodgers-1-3557169

[CropleyWasGod]

Scottish Councils are using the voters roll to chase Poll tax arrears. That should stop thousands of poor people from ever voting again.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/councils-use-referendum-roll-to-find-tax-dodgers-1-3557169

Do keep up :greengrin

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/salmond-all-poll-tax-debts-to-be-written-off-1-3560526

My question to the SG is this:-

Will the SG recompense the councils for the debts (£425m, apparently) that they will have to write off?

[Betty Boop]

Do keep up :greengrin

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/salmond-all-poll-tax-debts-to-be-written-off-1-3560526

My question to the SG is this:-

Will the SG recompense the councils for the debts (£425m, apparently) that they will have to write off?

Dunno about that, however CEC could pursue the Statutory Notice crooks for the millions trousered , that should help a bit with the gap in their funding. :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

Dunno about that, however CEC could pursue the Statutory Notice crooks for the millions trousered , that should help a bit with the gap in their funding. :greengrin

And Hearts and Rangers.

J

[johnbc70]

So if I had taken out a loan with Wonga that I could not afford (my choice nobody forced me) and dodged my poll tax years ago then I would be laughing.

[Betty Boop]

So if I had taken out a loan with Wonga that I could not afford (my choice nobody forced me) and dodged my poll tax years ago then I would be laughing.


Well obviously not if you voted in the Referendum.







http://federaltax.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/TaxManInCoffin.png

[Phil D. Rolls]

The problem with chasing Poll Tax defaulters seems to be that the costs are exceeding the returns.

I'd be surprised if banks, or Inland Revenue were chasing debts after 25 years. There comes a point when you write them off.

[CropleyWasGod]

The problem with chasing Poll Tax defaulters seems to be that the costs are exceeding the returns.

I'd be surprised if banks, or Inland Revenue were chasing debts after 25 years. There comes a point when you write them off.
Indeed.

I can't help having some sympathy for the Councils, though. Having been forced by Central Government into imposing an unfair tax, they lost out through the defaulters.
Now, having seen a chance to recoup something, again Central Government ties their hands.

Personally, I'd like to see an amnesty, and get all those people back into the electoral process. But I can understand the views of those whose tax might have increased, or services cut, as the direct result of non - payment by others.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Scottish Councils are using the voters roll to chase Poll tax arrears. That should stop thousands of poor people from ever voting again.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/councils-use-referendum-roll-to-find-tax-dodgers-1-3557169


Aye past tense. Excellent move by Scotlands government to what was liberty taking by Westminster on the working class of Scotland. I give you me as a perfect example, 2nd year apprentice plumber earning £60 a week and I get the the poll tax letter wanting a few hundred quid.
They chased me, chased me some more, to the point where my mum lied at her front door. I'm proud to say they never got me, even to this day and I can afford the debt.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Anybody else starting to get a bit pissed at the frothing from the new 45? Some of the stuff they are circulating makes UKIP look like MENSA.

Saw some pish about Alex Salmond giving his salary away. Followed by reverential fawning, and genefluction from the faithful. No source, of course.

Project Fear pissed me off, so does this stuff. Not helped by stuff like this from the SNP on disability.

"The Westminster establishment have shown time and time again that they can't be trusted on welfare - their race to the right to court votes in the south east of England is punishing the very people who need support the most - and the Tory conference this week has only reaffirmed their commitment to a shameless and sustained attack on the poor."

Spartist rubbish mirroring the worst excesses of Project Fear. McGlashan would be proud to put his name to it.

[lord bunberry]

Anybody else starting to get a bit pissed at the frothing from the new 45? Some of the stuff they are circulating makes UKIP look like MENSA.

Saw some pish about Alex Salmond giving his salary away. Followed by reverential fawning, and genefluction from the faithful. No source, of course.

Project Fear pissed me off, so does this stuff. Not helped by stuff like this from the SNP on disability.

"The Westminster establishment have shown time and time again that they can't be trusted on welfare - their race to the right to court votes in the south east of England is punishing the very people who need support the most - and the Tory conference this week has only reaffirmed their commitment to a shameless and sustained attack on the poor."

Spartist rubbish mirroring the worst excesses of Project Fear. McGlashan would be proud to put his name to it.

To be fair that last statement has been used quite a few times over the years

[Phil D. Rolls]

To be fair that last statement has been used quite a few times over the years

Is it actually true though?

For me, the 45 are making massive assumptions about what brought people to Yes. I was hacked off at the lies and negativity from the self serving politicians on the No side.

One way to drive me away from Yes is to start behaving like UKIP. I suspect there are many people like me that don't like to be patronised by politicians of any hue.

[One Day Soon]

FFS are you still going on about this.
Was this point not flogged to death about 30 odd pages ago ? :confused:

I know, people holding opinions. Its really shocking.

[One Day Soon]

This kind of post makes it difficult to take you seriously and questions your motivation on holding the views you do.

Just saying like.


Wonderful, I'm not allowed to express a contrary opinion AND the thought police can apparently read my mind as to what my questionable motivations are. Crack on.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I know, people holding opinions. Its really shocking.


Wonderful, I'm not allowed to express a contrary opinion AND the thought police can apparently read my mind as to what my questionable motivations are. Crack on.

Brick wall meet head. :brickwall You are allowed to express any opinion you want, but if discussion is to mean anything, it has to be a two way street with the odd bit of give and take.

You're the one that started the mind reading when you said that people were calling Brown a Nazi by comparing him to Quisling.

You have to be on the wind up. Why don't you respond to posts that people make addressing the points instead of using emotive language to dodge answering?

You continue to deflect from your mistake about the word Quisling by throwing hissy fits when you get criticised.

It's no fair I said some things and now people are picking me up in it. Grow up man.

[One Day Soon]

To be fair, It's him (ODS) that keeps bringing it back up from time to time.


I engaged on the subject in a protracted earlier exchange. I then left it. The theme was then raised again by someone else entirely - not me - because they didn't like it being applied to the SNP. At that point - someone else having raised it - I simply reminded that it had already entered the debate previously in a way which I felt was unacceptable. Others disagreed with my opinion and that is their prerogative. You will note, or maybe you won't, that because we have different opinions which aren't going to be reconciled I have quite deliberately not kept "bringing it back up from time to time".

So when you say that I keep "bringing it back up from time to time" you are completely wrong because I did not reintroduce the theme and I have revisited it just once. When I did do so I did not attack any one poster and nor did I intend to. I simply raised what I felt was a general contradiction.

I think the whole discussion, if we can dignify the thread with that term, would be elevated if what is already an emotive and divisive subject could stick broadly to contemporary facts. For example the political leanings of some individuals within the SNP during the 1940s probably doesn't tell us a lot about that party today.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I engaged on the subject in a protracted earlier exchange. I then left it. The theme was then raised again by someone else entirely - not me - because they didn't like it being applied to the SNP. At that point - someone else having raised it - I simply reminded that it had already entered the debate previously in a way which I felt was unacceptable. Others disagreed with my opinion and that is their prerogative. You will note, or maybe you won't, that because we have different opinions which aren't going to be reconciled I have quite deliberately not kept "bringing it back up from time to time".

So when you say that I keep "bringing it back up from time to time" you are completely wrong because I did not reintroduce the theme and I have revisited it just once. When I did do so I did not attack any one poster and nor did I intend to. I simply raised what I felt was a general contradiction.

I think the whole discussion, if we can dignify the thread with that term, would be elevated if what is already an emotive and divisive subject could stick broadly to contemporary facts. For example the political leanings of some individuals within the SNP during the 1940s probably doesn't tell us a lot about that party today.

You are out of order, and seem to see yourself as sole arbiter of what is acceptable. I've written some arrogant crap in my time, but this is something else.

re. Quisling meaning Nazi, the world disagrees with your opinion. Still sometimes there only one man walking in step, eh?

You were the one who brought the Nazis into it, without any reason, nobody else was talking about Nazis!

Embarrassing, frustrating, annoying, puerile. I'm out before I say something really offensive.

[One Day Soon]

Do keep up :greengrin

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/salmond-all-poll-tax-debts-to-be-written-off-1-3560526

My question to the SG is this:-

Will the SG recompense the councils for the debts (£425m, apparently) that they will have to write off?


The SG isn't recompensing the Councils, we are as tax payers. Do we all get a Poll Tax rebate now?

And the money that will be used to clear the Poll Tax non-payment currently sitting on Council books? That will come from money that would otherwise have been used for hospitals, schools etc.

This is an ar5e stupid policy that is aimed squarely at the Trot left which is clustering so enthusiastically around the post Yes banner.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The SG isn't recompensing the Councils, we are as tax payers. Do we all get a Poll Tax rebate now?

And the money that will be used to clear the Poll Tax non-payment currently sitting on Council books? That will come from money that would otherwise have been used for hospitals, schools etc.

This is an ar5e stupid policy that is aimed squarely at the Trot left which is clustering so enthusiastically around the post Yes banner.

Fact?

[One Day Soon]

You are out of order, and seem to see yourself as sole arbiter of what is acceptable. I've written some arrogant crap in my time, but this is something else.

re. Quisling meaning Nazi, the world disagrees with your opinion. Still sometimes there only one man walking in step, eh?

You were the one who brought the Nazis into it, without any reason, nobody else was talking about Nazis!

Embarrassing, frustrating, annoying, puerile. I'm out before I say something really offensive.


I'm happy to apologise if I have given you offence. None was intended.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I'm happy to apologise if I have given you offence. None was intended.

:confused:

Forget it, I'm sticking you on ignore. I don't know if you mean any harm or not, but your stuff winds me up.

You are a strange person, and are typical of the political class who see discussion as a game to see who can score most points. Regrettably, it's people like you that put people off politics, IMO.

Its all about you, you, you as anyone reading over your posts can see.

[Moulin Yarns]

The SG isn't recompensing the Councils, we are as tax payers. Do we all get a Poll Tax rebate now?

And the money that will be used to clear the Poll Tax non-payment currently sitting on Council books? That will come from money that would otherwise have been used for hospitals, schools etc.

This is an ar5e stupid policy that is aimed squarely at the Trot left which is clustering so enthusiastically around the post Yes banner.
Local government do not build hospitals.

[One Day Soon]

Local government do not build hospitals.


The Scottish Government does build hospitals and it is going to have to write off the non-collected poll Tax deb currently sitting on Local Government books.

So, money currently held by the Scottish Government that could have gone to the NHS or to a range of other things will now be blown on this instead. And this while the NHS in Scotland has a half a billion hole in its budget and while bed blocking is running out of control in NHS Lothian.

This isn't government, its issue based political joyriding.

[lord bunberry]

Is it actually true though?

For me, the 45 are making massive assumptions about what brought people to Yes. I was hacked off at the lies and negativity from the self serving politicians on the No side.

One way to drive me away from Yes is to start behaving like UKIP. I suspect there are many people like me that don't like to be patronised by politicians of any hue.

Whether its true or not isn't the point I was making, you were attributing a statement to a group of people and calling it patronising, when the statement can hardly be attributed solely to the group you suggest. I also think it's a bit early to be refering to the post referendum movement as the new 45, it's far too early for any group to have a coordinated spokesman or a plan for the way forward.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Whether its true or not isn't the point I was making, you were attributing a statement to a group of people and calling it patronising, when the statement can hardly be attributed solely to the group you suggest. I also think it's a bit early to be refering to the post referendum movement as the new 45, it's far too early for any group to have a coordinated spokesman or a plan for the way forward.

Sorry, I've been swamped by some nonsense on Facebook lately, and have been getting frazzled. What's been happening is that many of the people have an avatar like yours. I've made the mistake of creating a group that doesn't actually exist - the 45 does not represent a faction it's just a statement about the result.

All I really want to say is that there is plenty of (IMO) lunatic stuff starting to come out. I was undecided and switched to Yes because of Project Fear. Some people are starting to use the same tactics and it doesn't sit easy with me.

I stand by my criticism of the SNP statement on benefits, as I think it's empty rhetoric - and a bit insincere IMO.

[allmodcons]

The Scottish Government does build hospitals and it is going to have to write off the non-collected poll Tax deb currently sitting on Local Government books.

So, money currently held by the Scottish Government that could have gone to the NHS or to a range of other things will now be blown on this instead. And this while the NHS in Scotland has a half a billion hole in its budget and while bed blocking is running out of control in NHS Lothian.

This isn't government, its issue based political joyriding.

Why does this irk you so much when English Councils had the good sense to write off unpaid poll tax debt years ago. Could it be because it is the SNP doing this?

Based on last year's recovery amount of £390000 some of which is not new (i.e. - this figure includes those people already repaying by instalments) it would take something like 1000 years to recover the poll tax debt of £425M.

Ultimately, there is very little difference in cash terms to Government (i.e. - based on 100% recovery of the £425M at £1M every year it will still take 425 years to collect!!!!)

If this is political joyriding, I'm in the car.

Better that than the safe Sunday run that brought, and left us with, PFI.

[CropleyWasGod]

The SG isn't recompensing the Councils, we are as tax payers. Do we all get a Poll Tax rebate now?

And the money that will be used to clear the Poll Tax non-payment currently sitting on Council books? That will come from money that would otherwise have been used for hospitals, schools etc.

This is an ar5e stupid policy that is aimed squarely at the Trot left which is clustering so enthusiastically around the post Yes banner.

Is that definite? I have seen conflicting opinions.

[RyeSloan]

I engaged on the subject in a protracted earlier exchange. I then left it. The theme was then raised again by someone else entirely - not me - because they didn't like it being applied to the SNP. At that point - someone else having raised it - I simply reminded that it had already entered the debate previously in a way which I felt was unacceptable. Others disagreed with my opinion and that is their prerogative. You will note, or maybe you won't, that because we have different opinions which aren't going to be reconciled I have quite deliberately not kept "bringing it back up from time to time". So when you say that I keep "bringing it back up from time to time" you are completely wrong because I did not reintroduce the theme and I have revisited it just once. When I did do so I did not attack any one poster and nor did I intend to. I simply raised what I felt was a general contradiction. I think the whole discussion, if we can dignify the thread with that term, would be elevated if what is already an emotive and divisive subject could stick broadly to contemporary facts. For example the political leanings of some individuals within the SNP during the 1940s probably doesn't tell us a lot about that party today.

ODS...you remind me of my Mrs when I'm having an argument with her...fck me indefatigably doesn't describe it ;-)

Recently I've tired a new line (it hasn't gone down too well if I'm honest)

"Look....it's simple. If you were right I'd agree with you"

I've found it saves a lot of time and energy :-)

[ronaldo7]

I engaged on the subject in a protracted earlier exchange. I then left it.[/B] The theme was then raised again by someone else entirely - not me - because they didn't like it being applied to the SNP. At that point - someone else having raised it - I simply reminded that it had already entered the debate previously in a way which I felt was unacceptable. Others disagreed with my opinion and that is their prerogative. You will note, or maybe you won't, that because we have different opinions which aren't going to be reconciled I have quite deliberately not kept "bringing it back up from time to time".

So when you say that I keep "bringing it back up from time to time" you are completely wrong because I did not reintroduce the theme and I have revisited it just once. When I did do so I did not attack any one poster and nor did I intend to. I simply raised what I felt was a general contradiction.

I think the whole discussion, if we can dignify the thread with that term, would be elevated if what is already an emotive and divisive subject could stick broadly to contemporary facts. For example the political leanings of some individuals within the SNP during the 1940s probably doesn't tell us a lot about that party today.

Nope.

You were engaged in debate in which you lost, and returned to the subject to be castigated again. On both counts you've lost.

[ronaldo7]

The Scottish Government does build hospitals and it is going to have to write off the non-collected poll Tax deb currently sitting on Local Government books.

So, money currently held by the Scottish Government that could have gone to the NHS or to a range of other things will now be blown on this instead. And this while the NHS in Scotland has a half a billion hole in its budget and while bed blocking is running out of control in NHS Lothian.

This isn't government, its issue based political joyriding.

This is one of the many reasons why Labour has lost the plot. I hope the Scottish people put them to the the sword in the next two elections. It's all they deserve.

The poll tax arrears should have been wiped many years ago, but when the opportunists take it upon themselves to use the Electoral register to hunt down the non payers, and Labour people are supporting it. Beggars belief, it really does.

[Moulin Yarns]

The Scottish Government does build hospitals and it is going to have to write off the non-collected poll Tax deb currently sitting on Local Government books.

So, money currently held by the Scottish Government that could have gone to the NHS or to a range of other things will now be blown on this instead. And this while the NHS in Scotland has a half a billion hole in its budget and while bed blocking is running out of control in NHS Lothian.

This isn't government, its issue based political joyriding.

Poll tax, now the council tax has never been used to build hospitals. You really need to get off your irn bru crate, check the facts and change the record

[JeMeSouviens]

I think the whole discussion, if we can dignify the thread with that term, would be elevated if what is already an emotive and divisive subject could stick broadly to contemporary facts. For example the political leanings of some individuals within the SNP during the 1940s probably doesn't tell us a lot about that party today.

Hear, hear. I'm uncomfortable with Quisling being applied to anyone as well.

[JeMeSouviens]

This is one of the many reasons why Labour has lost the plot. I hope the Scottish people put them to the the sword in the next two elections. It's all they deserve.

The poll tax arrears should have been wiped many years ago, but when the opportunists take it upon themselves to use the Electoral register to hunt down the non payers, and Labour people are supporting it. Beggars belief, it really does.

I never paid mine (student, so £150ish iirc). On principle, I always said I would pay up when the warrant sale was due. I still think the whole idea of such a clearly regressive tax was a disgrace. But it's not like I can't afford it. Feel slightly guilty now.

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29489288


Claims that pro-UK campaigners breached electoral law by counting postal votes ahead of referendum polling day will be formally investigated by police.

The allegations surround comments made to BBC Scotland by Ms Davidson about 45 minutes after polls closed in the independence referendum on 18 September.
Ms Davidson told the Scotland Decides programme: "We have had people at every sample opening around the country over the last few weeks... and we have been incredibly encouraged by the results from that.


only a re-run will suffice :agree: let's do it all again :cb

[Peevemor]

Tory MSP Murdo Fraser tweeted this little gem earlier

13598

Nice ... :rolleyes:

[One Day Soon]

Why does this irk you so much when English Councils had the good sense to write off unpaid poll tax debt years ago. Could it be because it is the SNP doing this?

Based on last year's recovery amount of £390000 some of which is not new (i.e. - this figure includes those people already repaying by instalments) it would take something like 1000 years to recover the poll tax debt of £425M.

Ultimately, there is very little difference in cash terms to Government (i.e. - based on 100% recovery of the £425M at £1M every year it will still take 425 years to collect!!!!)

If this is political joyriding, I'm in the car.

Better that than the safe Sunday run that brought, and left us with, PFI.


It irritates me because the Scottish Government is going to spend arounf half a billion on this when that money is desperately needed in the NHS which they are already underfunding.

[One Day Soon]

Is that definite? I have seen conflicting opinions.

Perhaps didn't make my point clearly enough. Scottish Government appears to be willing to pay local government for this but the money being used is oming from our taxes and I really don't think this is the best use of scarce resources right now.

[One Day Soon]

ODS...you remind me of my Mrs when I'm having an argument with her...fck me indefatigably doesn't describe it ;-)

Recently I've tired a new line (it hasn't gone down too well if I'm honest)

"Look....it's simple. If you were right I'd agree with you"

I've found it saves a lot of time and energy :-)


I like that one.

[One Day Soon]

Nope.

You were engaged in debate in which you lost, and returned to the subject to be castigated again. On both counts you've lost.


That's time and again then is it? Crack on Captain Hyperbole.

[One Day Soon]

This is one of the many reasons why Labour has lost the plot. I hope the Scottish people put them to the the sword in the next two elections. It's all they deserve.

The poll tax arrears should have been wiped many years ago, but when the opportunists take it upon themselves to use the Electoral register to hunt down the non payers, and Labour people are supporting it. Beggars belief, it really does.


So Council revenue collection departments are opportunists now. Ach maybe you're right, perhaps everyone who did pay their Poll Tax should ask for a rebate. Makes you wonder why it has taken the SNP government we have had for the last seven years up until now to decide to write it off. Can't just be political posturing surely?

You do realise that councils of all political complexions have been using data matching services - like the data held by credit reference agencies - to track down non-payers for years already?

[One Day Soon]

Poll tax, now the council tax has never been used to build hospitals. You really need to get off your irn bru crate, check the facts and change the record


1. Writing off Poll Tax debt means the Scottish Government will have to pay Scottish councils the roughly half a billion that it will cost.

2. The roughly half a billion that it will cost is money that the Scottish Government could otherwise have spent on something else.

3. The Scottish Government funds the hospital building programme.

4. The Scottish Government therefore won't have roughly half a billion that it could have spent on hospitals.


You need to do some basic reading on public finances.

[One Day Soon]

I never paid mine (student, so £150ish iirc). On principle, I always said I would pay up when the warrant sale was due. I still think the whole idea of such a clearly regressive tax was a disgrace. But it's not like I can't afford it. Feel slightly guilty now.

It is fascinating that a wholly regressive tax (which this was) was a disgrace (which this was) because it charged people regardless of ability to pay, but wholly regressive policies like Council Tax freezes and free prescriptions for all - which subsidise everyone regardless of ability to pay - are then regarded as fair. Mental.

[One Day Soon]

Tory MSP Murdo Fraser tweeted this little gem earlier

13598

Nice ... :rolleyes:


I'm struggling to see what he was aiming for here. Its not even witty.

[Mikey09]

It is fascinating that a wholly regressive tax (which this was) was a disgrace (which this was) because it charged people regardless of ability to pay, but wholly regressive policies like Council Tax freezes and free prescriptions for all - which subsidise everyone regardless of ability to pay - are then regarded as fair. Mental.


Why is this mental?? The only people losing with the poll tax were the ones who couldn't afford to pay it.....At least they aren't losing out with free prescriptions even though people who could afford to pay for prescriptions are saving as well. Your logic is the only thing mental here....

[Beefster]

Why is this mental?? The only people losing with the poll tax were the ones who couldn't afford to pay it.....At least they aren't losing out with free prescriptions even though people who could afford to pay for prescriptions are saving as well. Your logic is the only thing mental here....

A lot of folk who didn't pay the poll tax could afford it.

Someone on minimum wage pays tax that is then (in part) used to pay for prescriptions for someone who could easily afford to pay for them. That's not progressive.

ODS's logic is entirely valid in this instance.

[johnbc70]

Why is this mental?? The only people losing with the poll tax were the ones who couldn't afford to pay it.....At least they aren't losing out with free prescriptions even though people who could afford to pay for prescriptions are saving as well. Your logic is the only thing mental here....

There were loads that could afford it but chose not to pay, just like today you get people who do not pay council tax but could.

This decision by the SNP actually reinforces my belief I was correct in voting No.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Is this ever going to end?

Police to investigate vote rigging (or ballot irregularities if you prefer). (http://en.ria.ru/politics/20141004/193657670/British-Politicians-To-Face-Criminal-Investigation-Over-Scottish.html)

If there is another referendum, I'm leaving the country (or region of the UK if you think that way). There's too many loonies (or people deeply committed to their ideology, if you prefer) from both sides roaming the streets (or Internet forums, if you're being realistic).

The fact (or opinion) is that most people have accepted (or cow towed to) the result, and are getting in with their lives (or meaningless existence). They are thoroughly peeved that the activists (or misfits) are continuing to argue over something that is done and dusted (aka just started).

My advice to anybody that has concerns over the ballot (or farcical subversion of the democratic process) is to have a look at elections in Zimbabwe (or China or Florida) and stop moaning (or making your validly held point).

[CropleyWasGod]

Perhaps didn't make my point clearly enough. Scottish Government appears to be willing to pay local government for this but the money being used is oming from our taxes and I really don't think this is the best use of scarce resources right now.
Maybe I didn't make my point clearly. :)

Is the SG actually going to pay the full £450m? Some reports say they are, some say not, some say that they will pay a part.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I saw this in the Sunday Herald:
He accepted his proposed legislation would have limited practical impact as most poll tax debts have been legally wiped out because they are more than 20 years old. (http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/and-on-the-line-we-have-alex-our-outgoing-first-minister.25498555)


Is this right?

[Moulin Yarns]

1. Writing off Poll Tax debt means the Scottish Government will have to pay Scottish councils the roughly half a billion that it will cost.

2. The roughly half a billion that it will cost is money that the Scottish Government could otherwise have spent on something else.

3. The Scottish Government funds the hospital building programme.

4. The Scottish Government therefore won't have roughly half a billion that it could have spent on hospitals.


You need to do some basic reading on public finances.

Working in Local Government, I think I have a modicum of understanding of public finance. :wink:

1. I have seen no evidence confirming that Holyrood will pay the £425m to local authorities, if you could provide a link to confirm this it would be useful. EDIT: 5 minutes on the internet finds this from the Scottish Government announcement


Legislation will be introduced in the Scottish Government’s forthcoming legislation programme that will mean councils will no longer have the ability to collect Poll Tax arrears, but will be compensated for outstanding amounts in line with current collection rates.

Kind of confirms that funding will be no more than £350k per annum

2. IF it is confirmed that the £425m is to be repaid, can you confirm that it will be in one year, as normal government budgets are set over a number of years.

3. correct.

4. If indeed the £425m has to be repaid, but nowhere have I seen this confirmed as fact, other than in your posts.


I can only give my own local authority as an example, but the budget for 2014/15 in my authority includes £71.5m raised from Council Tax and £4.4m carried forward from current reserves, so not all authorities are in deficit due to 25 year old unpaid Community Charge. I imagine all have already budgeted for not recouping any historic arrears. Council tax arrears are a different matter.


I think the direct quote from the SG announcement puts to bed (hospital or otherwise) that £425m will not be lost form essential services as ODS appears to think. Irn bru crate needs to be ditched in favour of a slice of pie, methinks.

[bawheid]

Makes you wonder why it has taken the SNP government we have had for the last seven years up until now to decide to write it off. Can't just be political posturing surely??

Were they not forced to act by pro-Union councils using the new level of political engagement to start harassing folks for debts owed to a tax that was a complete disgrace?

I presume if those councils hadn't started their door-knocking then the government wouldn't have had to legislate.

As has been mentioned the sight of Labour run councils using a 97% registration to try and hunt down poll tax avoiders was breathtaking. Scottish Labour? Aye, right then... I can see them taking none other than an absolute slicing at the GE next year.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Tory MSP Murdo Fraser tweeted this little gem earlier

13598

Nice ... :rolleyes:

Sticks and stones?

[Jack]

1. Writing off Poll Tax debt means the Scottish Government will have to pay Scottish councils the roughly half a billion that it will cost.

2. The roughly half a billion that it will cost is money that the Scottish Government could otherwise have spent on something else.

3. The Scottish Government funds the hospital building programme.

4. The Scottish Government therefore won't have roughly half a billion that it could have spent on hospitals.


You need to do some basic reading on public finances.

The NHS budget is set and will not be affected by this, nor is there a hole in the NHS finances.

You really need to do some basic reading on NHS policy and public finances.

[Future17]

Is this ever going to end?

Police to investigate vote rigging (or ballot irregularities if you prefer). (http://en.ria.ru/politics/20141004/193657670/British-Politicians-To-Face-Criminal-Investigation-Over-Scottish.html)

If there is another referendum, I'm leaving the country (or region of the UK if you think that way). There's too many loonies (or people deeply committed to their ideology, if you prefer) from both sides roaming the streets (or Internet forums, if you're being realistic).

The fact (or opinion) is that most people have accepted (or cow towed to) the result, and are getting in with their lives (or meaningless existence). They are thoroughly peeved that the activists (or misfits) are continuing to argue over something that is done and dusted (aka just started).

My advice to anybody that has concerns over the ballot (or farcical subversion of the democratic process) is to have a look at elections in Zimbabwe (or China or Florida) and stop moaning (or making your validly held point).

The fact is that what they have been accused of doing is a crime which they could theoretically repeat at future elections.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The fact is that what they have been accused of doing is a crime which they could theoretically repeat at future elections.

Important in that respect. Need to wait and see what happened, but I'll be surprised if its anything massively out of order.

[ronaldo7]

That's time and again then is it? Crack on Captain Hyperbole.

You were engaged once and got a pasting, you were then engaged again, with the same pasting. Therefor time and time again suits just fine ta.:aok:



So Council revenue collection departments are opportunists now. Ach maybe you're right, perhaps everyone who did pay their Poll Tax should ask for a rebate. Makes you wonder why it has taken the SNP government we have had for the last seven years up until now to decide to write it off. Can't just be political posturing surely?

You do realise that councils of all political complexions have been using data matching services - like the data held by credit reference agencies - to track down non-payers for years already?


We all know why the SG have acted on this. The councils were using the Electoral register to chase non payers of a tax some 25 years ago. It's actually illegal to do so under the 20 year rule.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p027v2p8

[One Day Soon]

You were engaged once and got a pasting, you were then engaged again, with the same pasting. Therefor time and time again suits just fine ta.:aok:





We all know why the SG have acted on this. The councils were using the Electoral register to chase non payers of a tax some 25 years ago. It's actually illegal to do so under the 20 year rule.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p027v2p8


It's increased to 'time and time again' now? Your exaggeration is becoming incontinent.

We certainly do all know why the SG have acted. It has nothing whatever to do with legality. Still, it is good to know that the SNP Local Government Minister has stated that people are 'generally expected to pay their taxes'.

Salmond is spraying bizarre announcements and actions around like confetti. It's almost as though he is making it up as he goes along :wink:

And there's a fair distance to travel before he leaves office....

[ronaldo7]

It's increased to 'time and time again' now? Your exaggeration is becoming incontinent.

We certainly do all know why the SG have acted. It has nothing whatever to do with legality. Still, it is good to know that the SNP Local Government Minister has stated that people are 'generally expected to pay their taxes'.

Salmond is spraying bizarre announcements and actions around like confetti. It's almost as though he is making it up as he goes along :wink:

And there's a fair distance to travel before he leaves office....

:faf: You took a pasting though eh.

Imo The SG have acted correctly in a way to protect the people from the spivs in the Labour and Conservative councils chasing taxes from an Illegal tax. Good on them I say.

[One Day Soon]

:faf: You took a pasting though eh.

Imo The SG have acted correctly in a way to protect the people from the spivs in the Labour and Conservative councils chasing taxes from an Illegal tax. Good on them I say.


Did I? I guess you're about 45% right.

You're definitely the unbiased acid test of when the SG acts sensibly. You're absolutely not at all either a nat or a Nat.

[ronaldo7]

Did I? I guess you're about 45% right.

You're definitely the unbiased acid test of when the SG acts sensibly. You're absolutely not at all either a nat or a Nat.

You've finally got something right:aok: Well done you. :tee hee:

[One Day Soon]

You've finally got something right:aok: Well done you. :tee hee:

Ta. I'm quite good at percentages...

[ronaldo7]

Ta. I'm quite good at percentages...

13602 You keep banging your own drum mate.:greengrin

[Sergio sledge]

Tory MSP Murdo Fraser tweeted this little gem earlier

13598

Nice ... :rolleyes:

I don't think it was particularly witty, but I think it was a response to this story: Kenny Macaskill tweet (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29490913)

An SNP spokeswoman said, "Mr MacAskill wasn't making a comparison between the two situations, and would obviously never do so."

[One Day Soon]

13602 You keep banging your own drum mate.:greengrin


Are you suggesting that I'm a member of the Orange Order?

[Moulin Yarns]

Are you suggesting that I'm a member of the Orange Order?

Decisions, Orange Order or Nazi? (insert smiley of choice)

[ronaldo7]

Are you suggesting that I'm a member of the Orange Order?

Not at all, it's the only drum picture I could find in my gallery of Better together stuff:aok:

[One Day Soon]

Decisions, Orange Order or Nazi? (insert smiley of choice)


This is all just good-natured banter of course.

[One Day Soon]

Not at all, it's the only drum picture I could find in my gallery of Better together stuff:aok:

Blinding

[Rasta_Hibs]

This is all just good-natured banter of course.

Don't let the Yes cult get to you ha ha

[Mikey09]

13602 You keep banging your own drum mate.:greengrinHahaha!!!! That IS the better together campaign..... Banging along to the rhythm of the vow!!!

[cabbageandribs1875]

here's something you would never EVER get if Scottish Labour were in power at Holyrood (god forbid)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29504836

The cost of the Queensferry Crossing will be £50m lower than previously estimated.


Fact :agree:

[johnbc70]

here's something you would never EVER get if Scottish Labour were in power at Holyrood (god forbid)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29504836

The cost of the Queensferry Crossing will be £50m lower than previously estimated.


Fact :agree:

How convenient. What's £50M when your spending £1.4BN, about 0.3%, so great they managed to spend the rest of the 99.7% of the budget.

The old trick of under promise and over deliver, at least they were clever enough to recognise that.

[CropleyWasGod]

How convenient. What's £50M when your spending £1.4BN, about 0.3%, so great they managed to spend the rest of the 99.7% of the budget.

The old trick of under promise and over deliver, at least they were clever enough to recognise that.
It's 3.5%

[allmodcons]

How convenient. What's £50M when your spending £1.4BN, about 0.3%, so great they managed to spend the rest of the 99.7% of the budget.

The old trick of under promise and over deliver, at least they were clever enough to recognise that.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

CWG is correct by the way it's 3.5%.

[johnbc70]

It's 3.5%

That's why I failed maths at school! Still I am sure it was all worked out to come out at some kind of saving along the way.

[allmodcons]

That's why I failed maths at school! Still I am sure it was all worked out to come out at some kind of saving along the way.

Just to reiterate, "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Do you think the construction of the Scottish Parliament and the Edinburgh Trams fiasco were budgeted for on the same basis?

[johnbc70]

Just to reiterate, "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Do you think the construction of the Scottish Parliament and the Edinburgh Trams fiasco were budgeted for on the same basis?

Clearly not and that is why I said they have learnt from that.

[allmodcons]

Clearly not and that is why I said they have learnt from that.

Where did you state they had learned from these 2 projects?

[johnbc70]

Where did you state they had learned from these 2 projects?

Where I stated at least the government were clever enough to have recognised that they under promised and over delivered something clearly not done on the projects you mention.

[allmodcons]

Where I stated at least the government were clever enough to have recognised that they under promised and over delivered something clearly not done on the projects you mention.

To cut to the chase, when would you give the SNP Government credit for something/anything?

As I've already said twice "damned if you do, damned if you don't". Why do you feel the need to criticise them for coming in under budget when you know fine well that you'd be more than happy to criticise them if the project was over budget?

With you they are in a 'no win' situation. Whatever the say or do, you will look to put a negative spin on it!

[johnbc70]

To cut to the chase, when would you give the SNP Government credit for something/anything?

As I've already said twice "damned if you do, damned if you don't". Why do you feel the need to criticise them for coming in under budget when you know fine well that you'd be more than happy to criticise them if the project was over budget?

With you they are in a 'no win' situation. Whatever the say or do, you will look to put a negative spin on it!

I am sure Labour, Lib Dems and all the parties would have done the same, just find it very convenient how it comes in under budget and the cynic in me says this was always going to be the case after the trams fiasco. That applies to any party who happen to be in power at the time as they would have all done the same.

Believe it or not I think the SNP do a fairly good job of being in government, I don't think the other parties would do much better. Will make me think hard about who to vote for in next Scottish elections as who do you vote for if your against independence (well what the SNP offered anyway) but believe they do a semi decent job of running the country.

[RyeSloan]

I am sure Labour, Lib Dems and all the parties would have done the same, just find it very convenient how it comes in under budget and the cynic in me says this was always going to be the case after the trams fiasco. That applies to any party who happen to be in power at the time as they would have all done the same. Believe it or not I think the SNP do a fairly good job of being in government, I don't think the other parties would do much better. Will make me think hard about who to vote for in next Scottish elections as who do you vote for if your against independence (well what the SNP offered anyway) but believe they do a semi decent job of running the country.

I actually don't think they would have.

I'm pretty sure the initial proposal was to fund the bridge privately through tolls. That may well have provided a bridge that would have had more capacity (is two lanes really enough when the existing road bridge is closed, could there have been an option to include rail/tram space to ease the reliance on the rail bridge?) while removing the risk from the public purse and freeing up £1.5bn to be used elsewhere (A9!)

I honestly think that would have been the better option if contracted properly but sure others won't agree....

[Moulin Yarns]

I understand that the savings will accelerate the A9 upgrade. Accident this morning caused chaos in Birnam this morning as I was heading to Dumfries.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I actually don't think they would have.

I'm pretty sure the initial proposal was to fund the bridge privately through tolls. That may well have provided a bridge that would have had more capacity (is two lanes really enough when the existing road bridge is closed, could there have been an option to include rail/tram space to ease the reliance on the rail bridge?) while removing the risk from the public purse and freeing up £1.5bn to be used elsewhere (A9!)

I honestly think that would have been the better option if contracted properly but sure others won't agree....

I think the existing bus is going to be used by buses.

[steakbake]

I am sure Labour, Lib Dems and all the parties would have done the same, just find it very convenient how it comes in under budget and the cynic in me says this was always going to be the case after the trams fiasco. That applies to any party who happen to be in power at the time as they would have all done the same.

Believe it or not I think the SNP do a fairly good job of being in government, I don't think the other parties would do much better. Will make me think hard about who to vote for in next Scottish elections as who do you vote for if your against independence (well what the SNP offered anyway) but believe they do a semi decent job of running the country.

Around 1 in 10 of regular SNP voters voted No.

[TrinityHibs]

I actually don't think they would have.

I'm pretty sure the initial proposal was to fund the bridge privately through tolls. That may well have provided a bridge that would have had more capacity (is two lanes really enough when the existing road bridge is closed, could there have been an option to include rail/tram space to ease the reliance on the rail bridge?) while removing the risk from the public purse and freeing up £1.5bn to be used elsewhere (A9!)

I honestly think that would have been the better option if contracted properly but sure others won't agree....

I think they would have to be honest.

The Forth Crossing has been a well run project that got out of the water without spending their contingency allowance and has benefitted from a very good summer to keep on or just ahead of programme. I thought the existing bridge continued to operate but only for buses/taxis/lorries:dunno: so would be available if there was a problem on the new bridge.

Also have they not handed back some money already?

[JimBHibees]

I think they would have to be honest.

The Forth Crossing has been a well run project that got out of the water without spending their contingency allowance and has benefitted from a very good summer to keep on or just ahead of programme. I thought the existing bridge continued to operate but only for buses/taxis/lorries:dunno: so would be available if there was a problem on the new bridge.

Also have they not handed back some money already?

It does this was taken from a BBC report.

Under government plans, the existing Forth road bridge would remain open for public transport, cyclists and pedestrians alongside the new one, due for completion in 2016.

[RyeSloan]

It does this was taken from a BBC report. Under government plans, the existing Forth road bridge would remain open for public transport, cyclists and pedestrians alongside the new one, due for completion in 2016.

Brilliant....so we have replaced a bridge that clearly didn't have capacity at peak times with a bridge that won't have capacity at peak times!

I had assumed that non hgv traffic would still be allowed to use the existing bridge but the plans are to maintain it just for bikes and buses! The worlds most expensive bus lane?

I'm amazed they didn't add capacity to the new bridge...seems rather short sighted to me.

[StevieC]

I understand that the savings will accelerate the A9 upgrade. Accident this morning caused chaos in Birnam this morning as I was heading to Dumfries.

I was heading in the opposite direction to Ballinluig.

[Moulin Yarns]

I was heading in the opposite direction to Ballinluig.


First time I've heard Ballinluig referred to as a destination, Stevie. :wink:

[patch1875]

If today's new property tax is a sign of the Scottish governments thinking on tax I'm glad I voted no.

[Phil D. Rolls]

If today's new property tax is a sign of the Scottish governments thinking on tax I'm glad I voted no.

Why is that?

[GlesgaeHibby]

If today's new property tax is a sign of the Scottish governments thinking on tax I'm glad I voted no.

Why? Much fairer system, and 90% of people will pay less and only the most wealthy will contribute more.

[patch1875]

Why? Much fairer system, and 90% of people will pay less and only the most wealthy will contribute more.

The threshold before it gets more expensive is 324k are 90% of the property sales under this amount in big cities?

[Hibrandenburg]

http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-29549414

Better Together with this lot?

[Mon Dieu4]

http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-29549414

Better Together with this lot?

Just sat and watched a Tory MP on BBC news talking about it in regards to taking votes from them means it is more likely for a Labour government, project FEAR seems to have now switched to the Labour Party, he cited IS and Ebola as reasons to vote Tory as Labour wouldn't be able to handle it, and the economy would go tits up, the BBC reporter accused him of scaremongering, good to see they are balanced again now and pulling people up on scare stories :brickwall

[ronaldo7]

If today's new property tax is a sign of the Scottish governments thinking on tax I'm glad I voted no.

Seems fairer to me. It gives first time buyers a wee lift whilst charging the more well off in our society a bit more.

Under the government's new Land and Building Transactions Tax, a marginal tax of 2% would apply to the proportion of a transaction between £135,000 and £250,000, while a 10% rate will apply to those between £250,000 and £1m.

Mr Swinney told MSPs: "As a result of the rates I have announced today, nobody will pay tax on the first £135,000 of their house purchase. 5,000 more transactions will be taken out of tax, supporting first-time buyers and those buying properties in the affordable market."

12% tax for houses over £1million.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29536022

[Judas Iscariot]

http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-29549414

Better Together with this lot?

:agree:

Frightening that these clowns are winning by-elections..

A future with them in power is what your NO vote might win you

Well done :aok:

[bawheid]

:agree:

Frightening that these clowns are winning by-elections..

A future with them in power is what your NO vote might win you

Well done :aok:

What's frightening is over 50% of the electorate voting for right wing parties in a safe Labour seat. FFS.

England is not so much drifting to the right, but birling the steering wheel round as far as it can go.

Labour are screwed both North and South and we're staring down the barrel of a right wing coalition intent on stamping on the poor and marching us out of the European Union.

Scary stuff indeed.

[steakbake]

Seems fairer to me. It gives first time buyers a wee lift whilst charging the more well off in our society a bit more.

Under the government's new Land and Building Transactions Tax, a marginal tax of 2% would apply to the proportion of a transaction between £135,000 and £250,000, while a 10% rate will apply to those between £250,000 and £1m.

Mr Swinney told MSPs: "As a result of the rates I have announced today, nobody will pay tax on the first £135,000 of their house purchase. 5,000 more transactions will be taken out of tax, supporting first-time buyers and those buying properties in the affordable market."

12% tax for houses over £1million.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29536022

I think it seems pretty fair. I have little sympathy with concerns of people who fork out over a million for somewhere to live paying far more additional tax. But you know, some folks who are against this are not so much against the principle but more aggrieved that their particular side didn't come up with the idea.

[johnbc70]

I see the price of Oil has fallen to a 4 year low, nowhere near the SNP's white paper figure of $113 a barrel.

[Jack]

I see the price of Oil has fallen to a 4 year low, nowhere near the SNP's white paper figure of $113 a barrel.

It was $3 a barrel in 1970 and the Westminster government has floated on it ever since! :-)

[Rasta_Hibs]

I see the price of Oil has fallen to a 4 year low, nowhere near the SNP's white paper figure of $113 a barrel.

I know what a comedy sketch that white paper was haha

[Peevemor]

I see the price of Oil has fallen to a 4 year low, nowhere near the SNP's white paper figure of $113 a barrel.

I see that there are oil reserves for 120 years, nowhere near Westminster's pre-referendum figure of 20 years.

[Moulin Yarns]

The threshold before it gets more expensive is 324k are 90% of the property sales under this amount in big cities?

June 2013, the average price in Edinburgh was £212,000 so the majority will save. not sure if 90% but the majority will.

[allmodcons]

I see the price of Oil has fallen to a 4 year low, nowhere near the SNP's white paper figure of $113 a barrel.

Bad news for the UK.

[johnbc70]

Bad news for the UK.

Absolutely, a volatile resource where the price fluctuates regularly. Would be difficult to budget using the price of oil at all times, but would not have started the running at $113.

[Peevemor]

Absolutely, a volatile resource where the price fluctuates regularly. Would be difficult to budget using the price of oil at all times, but would not have started the running at $113.


Yeah you're right. Far better letting Westminster handle the headache - we're better off without it in Scotland.

[allmodcons]

Absolutely, a volatile resource where the price fluctuates regularly. Would be difficult to budget using the price of oil at all times, but would not have started the running at $113.

Not if it's done properly.
Some countries manage it fine well.
I don't think I need to tell who they are, but if you google 'richest countries in the world per capita' you'll find some good examples!

[hibsbollah]

What's frightening is over 50% of the electorate voting for right wing parties in a safe Labour seat. FFS.

England is not so much drifting to the right, but birling the steering wheel round as far as it can go.

Labour are screwed both North and South and we're staring down the barrel of a right wing coalition intent on stamping on the poor and marching us out of the European Union.

Scary stuff indeed.


What's frightening is over 50% of the electorate voting for right wing parties in a safe Labour seat. FFS.

England is not so much drifting to the right, but birling the steering wheel round as far as it can go.

Labour are screwed both North and South and we're staring down the barrel of a right wing coalition intent on stamping on the poor and marching us out of the European Union.

Scary stuff indeed.

England is NOT lurching to the right, imo. UKIP got close to winning in Rochdale last night because of Labour being unable to get their vote out. UKIP only managed to get 13% of the electorate in that seat to vote for them, Labour, pathetically 14%, in Manchester where there is still mass poverty, a strong working class consciousness and where the labour movement was born ffs.

That result was down to team miliband and the lack of a credible alternative to austerity from any of the main parties, especially Labour. But I doubt at a general election with a higher turnout and with the party machines in full swing, UKIP will be able to win more than a handful of seats. As for the Tories, Carswell was extremely popular as an individual and was a shoo in to win last night. There's no seismic move to the right in England, not yet anyway. The Rochdale result just makes it more obvious that Labour urgently needs to up its game.

[JeMeSouviens]

England is NOT lurching to the right, imo. UKIP got close to winning in Rochdale last night because of Labour being unable to get their vote out. UKIP only managed to get 13% of the electorate in that seat to vote for them, Labour, pathetically 14%, in Manchester where there is still mass poverty, a strong working class consciousness and where the labour movement was born ffs.

That result was down to team miliband and the lack of a credible alternative to austerity from any of the main parties, especially Labour. But I doubt at a general election with a higher turnout and with the party machines in full swing, UKIP will be able to win more than a handful of seats. As for the Tories, Carswell was extremely popular as an individual and was a shoo in to win last night. There's no seismic move to the right in England, not yet anyway. The Rochdale result just makes it more obvious that Labour urgently needs to up its game.

The Heywood/Middleton result was interesting:

- turnout was a woeful 36%, our referendum might've caused a political stir but there's no sign of it spreading south.
- Labour didn't improve vote share at all, for the main party of opposition and less than a year to go to the GE, that's pish.
- as expected, Lib Dem vote collapsed completely. It's starting to look very unlikely that if there is a hung parliament, Libs will have enough MPs to form a coalition with either big party.
- UKIP surged in a labour seat, which is a big boost to them. The 64M$Q is whether/how much they can avoid the FPTP squeeze at GE time. Even with 15% they'll only win a couple of seats, so risk being lost in a polarised 2 party fight. Getting Farage into tv debates (if there are any) looks a huge deal for them.

[Jack]

The Heywood/Middleton result was interesting:

- turnout was a woeful 36%, our referendum might've caused a political stir but there's no sign of it spreading south.
- Labour didn't improve vote share at all, for the main party of opposition and less than a year to go to the GE, that's pish.
- as expected, Lib Dem vote collapsed completely. It's starting to look very unlikely that if there is a hung parliament, Libs will have enough MPs to form a coalition with either big party.
- UKIP surged in a labour seat, which is a big boost to them. The 64M$Q is whether/how much they can avoid the FPTP squeeze at GE time. Even with 15% they'll only win a couple of seats, so risk being lost in a polarised 2 party fight. Getting Farage into tv debates (if there are any) looks a huge deal for them.

Or the SNP could hold the balance of power!

[allmodcons]

Or the SNP could hold the balance of power!

Wishful thinking IMO.

The SNP are going to have to overturn some huge first past the post majorities to get anything like a decent number of seats.

Might have a chance in some of the seats where I think the Liberal Democratic vote could collapse like it did in the 2011 Scottish Election, however, if the SNP are to make any real progress we are talking about swings in Labour held seats (apart from maybe Ochil & Falkirk) of around 10 - 15 points.

A special result for the SNP would see a scenario where Holyrood votes translate to General Election votes. Anything in the region of 35% - 40% would have major ramifications for the Labour Party but, from a personal point of view, I just do not see this happening.

For me, anything upwards of 10 seats for the SNP would be a good achievement.

[RIP]

Wishful thinking IMO.

The SNP are going to have to overturn some huge first past the post majorities to get anything like a decent number of seats.

Might have a chance in some of the seats where I think the Liberal Democratic vote could collapse like it did in the 2011 Scottish Election, however, if the SNP are to make any real progress we are talking about swings in Labour held seats (apart from maybe Ochil & Falkirk) of around 10 - 15 points.

A special result for the SNP would see a scenario where Holyrood votes translate to General Election votes. Anything in the region of 35% - 40% would have major ramifications for the Labour Party but, from a personal point of view, I just do not see this happening.

For me, anything upwards of 10 seats for the SNP would be a good achievement.

Is there another scenario?

A new left of centre party in Scottish Politics to represent the working class and those who share socialist ideals. They wouldn't be ready to stand in all seats in 2015 but could be posting candidates in Dundee, Glasgow, North Lanarkshire, West Dumbartonshire. Like the Nationalists it would be a broad church to incorporate groups like the Trade Unions, Labour for Independence, Common Weal, RIC, SSP, SPS and Solidarity as well as former Labour voters and left oriented people from SNP, Greens and LibDems

I've heard names like The Labour Movement, Scottish Community and Social Justice Scotland being bandied about and there are a lot of inter-party talks going on at the moment. Watch this space

[allmodcons]

Is there another scenario?

A new left of centre party in Scottish Politics to represent the working class and those who share socialist ideals. They wouldn't be ready to stand in all seats in 2015 but could be posting candidates in Dundee, Glasgow, North Lanarkshire, West Dumbartonshire. Like the Nationalists it would be a broad church to incorporate groups like the Trade Unions, Labour for Independence, Common Weal, RIC, SSP, SPS and Solidarity as well as former Labour voters and left oriented people from SNP, Greens and LibDems

I've heard names like The Labour Movement, Scottish Community and Social Justice Scotland being bandied about and there are a lot of inter-party talks going on at the moment. Watch this space

Not a cats chance in hell.

IMO, a broad left of centre coalition encompassing all of the factions you refer to would be a complete waste of time. The infighting would be a joy to behold :greengrin

I consider myself to be left of centre SNP. Losing the referendum was a huge blow but, for me, your way forward would achieve nothing at the next General Election.

IMO, the best way to get a fairer Scottish society, is to remain a member of the SNP and work from within pursuing left of centre socially just policies.

The far left, in any guise, rarely get anything more than a derisory share of the vote at General Elections. The type of coalition you propose would do nothing more than split the vote in what are already pretty safe Labour seats.

[Moulin Yarns]

Wishful thinking IMO.

The SNP are going to have to overturn some huge first past the post majorities to get anything like a decent number of seats.

Might have a chance in some of the seats where I think the Liberal Democratic vote could collapse like it did in the 2011 Scottish Election, however, if the SNP are to make any real progress we are talking about swings in Labour held seats (apart from maybe Ochil & Falkirk) of around 10 - 15 points.

A special result for the SNP would see a scenario where Holyrood votes translate to General Election votes. Anything in the region of 35% - 40% would have major ramifications for the Labour Party but, from a personal point of view, I just do not see this happening.

For me, anything upwards of 10 seats for the SNP would be a good achievement.


I have said the same since 19 September and have a spreadsheet of the non SNP Westmonster seats with the number of votes SNP are behind. Talk of 20+ seats is fanciful imho.

[JeMeSouviens]

Wishful thinking IMO.

The SNP are going to have to overturn some huge first past the post majorities to get anything like a decent number of seats.

Might have a chance in some of the seats where I think the Liberal Democratic vote could collapse like it did in the 2011 Scottish Election, however, if the SNP are to make any real progress we are talking about swings in Labour held seats (apart from maybe Ochil & Falkirk) of around 10 - 15 points.

A special result for the SNP would see a scenario where Holyrood votes translate to General Election votes. Anything in the region of 35% - 40% would have major ramifications for the Labour Party but, from a personal point of view, I just do not see this happening.

For me, anything upwards of 10 seats for the SNP would be a good achievement.

Agree with this. I think the SNP will pick up a fair chunk of the lib vote and may just squeak largest share of vote but 10 seats would indeed be good going. Having said that, it's not completely unlikely that those 10 seats could form part of a multi party arrangement. I imagine confidence and supply would suit the SNP better than coalition. Could boost the devo on offer.

[Peevemor]

The Scottish Government have just published their proposals for the additional powers - they're not messing about! :aok:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0046/00460563.pdf

[allmodcons]

The Scottish Government have just published their proposals for the additional powers - they're not messing about! :aok:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0046/00460563.pdf


Neither they should.

If we ignore 'the vow' for a minute, we have a scenario whereby 3 of the parties (i.e. - SNP, Green & Lib Dems) participating in the Smith Commission all want Devo Max.

[johnbc70]

The Scottish Government have just published their proposals for the additional powers - they're not messing about! :aok:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0046/00460563.pdf

You could even say the best of both worlds....

[One Day Soon]

Wishful thinking IMO.

The SNP are going to have to overturn some huge first past the post majorities to get anything like a decent number of seats.

Might have a chance in some of the seats where I think the Liberal Democratic vote could collapse like it did in the 2011 Scottish Election, however, if the SNP are to make any real progress we are talking about swings in Labour held seats (apart from maybe Ochil & Falkirk) of around 10 - 15 points.

A special result for the SNP would see a scenario where Holyrood votes translate to General Election votes. Anything in the region of 35% - 40% would have major ramifications for the Labour Party but, from a personal point of view, I just do not see this happening.

For me, anything upwards of 10 seats for the SNP would be a good achievement.

Thats right on the money AMC. Anyone who makes the mistake of trying to translate either Scottish Parliament or Referendum voting strength into Westminster projections is going to look foolish. It's all horses for courses.

I think UKIP will be a poor man's SDP in the general election and will just cost the Tories seats to Labour. In Labour seats they may weaken the Labour vote but I doubt it will be enough to cost Labour seats. They will win few or none themselves. The race is on to be the largest single party between Tories and Labour and then form a minority administration, though that will be a thankless task for whoever ends up running it.

I doubt it will lead to more powers for the SP through coalition or support deals. Whatever we get from the Smith Commission is what we will get. More likely to see another election shortly after a hung parliament.

Bizarrely the electorate appears to want (sort of) Labour's polices but with David Cameron as PM. It is just mental that we have the Tories disappearing off to the far right in search of UKIP votes and Labour pandering to some weird version of the left as Miliband tries to prove he can be different from New Labour. There's a gigantic centre ground there and no-one is effectively occupying it.

There's one thing everyone can agree on though - that impostor Clegg and the Lib/Dems are utterly, utterly stuffed. We really do need better political parties and better politicians. Everywhere.

[Hibrandenburg]

The Scottish Government have just published their proposals for the additional powers - they're not messing about! :aok:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0046/00460563.pdf

I normally hate wading through political documents but I actually enjoyed that. You certainly can't accuse them of not doing their homework. :aok:

[One Day Soon]

I normally hate wading through political documents but I actually enjoyed that. You certainly can't accuse them of not doing their homework. :aok:

After the last two years and then the final six weeks I can't bring myself to look at any of the propositions at the moment. I think they should all be locked together in the appropriate rented room in the Vatican and not let out until white smoke emerges.

[Peevemor]

You could even say the best of both worlds....

Why? It'd be better but certainly not "the best".

[ronaldo7]

Scottish Labour's submission to the Smith commission. Dated March this year. Lots of new ideas there then:rolleyes:

http://b.3cdn.net/scotlab/277fe5eb9b114b9a3c_1pm6iir9r.pdf

[ronaldo7]

I see the price of Oil has fallen to a 4 year low, nowhere near the SNP's white paper figure of $113 a barrel.

On day of indyref, FTSE 100 closed at 6,819 amid fears of a YES vote. Today, it is 6,360, nearly 500 down, post the No vote. ***** happens eh.

[ronaldo7]

Small piece by Paul Mason on what next for the Yessers of Glasgow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCZIpbbZ_Ok&index=3&list=PLXjqQf1xYLQ4xY13AzffIyYbYq0t10fYp

[Peevemor]

A friend of a friend posted this on Facebook - couldn't have put it better myself.


So, David Cameron has told the SNP to accept "defeat".


Allow me to explain why this will not, and should not, happen.


It has emerged in the weeks since the referendum that Yes was on course to win approximately 7 days prior to the vote. A private Better Together poll put them on 52%. A private Labour poll put them on 54%. A private Yes poll put them on 52%. This victory was within established trends that many factored in when predicting a Yes victory.


As it became a statistical certainty that Scotland would vote Yes, nations around the world were preparing policy for the emergence of a new EU state. Ireland is one such nation where policy was being written to prepare for our emergence.


What happened next would cause concern to any forward-thinking individual who values democracy.


The UK Government, facing the loss of billions of pounds of tax revenue from Scottish oil and whisky, along with humiliation and forced acceptance of the Scottish Government's currency terms, deployed an unethical three-pronged approach to interfere with the result:


1) A series of 'vows' were made which redefined what a No vote stood for. The Edinburgh Agreement 2012 stipulated that neither side is allowed to change what they are offering in the final 28 days before the vote. This is called 'purdah', and means people can consider, without interference, which offering they wish to vote for without goal posts being moved.


Yet they did it. Through a set of nonsense 'Vows', they completely altered what a No vote would "mean". How did they do it? The Daily Record newspaper, on their front page, 'demanded' information on what devolution promises would be made, a calculated move which created a situation where purdah allowed a 'response' to a 'request for information'. Their front page the next day featured the now-infamous signed 'Vow' on devolution, as a convenient "response".


Next came Gordon Brown, who is not a member of Better Together or the UK Government, to make a series of promises which held no authority. Brown, little more than an ex-Prime Minister, is not covered by purdah rules. Exactly why the BBC granted Mr. Brown live uninterrupted broadcasts for several of these speeches, despite them being empty and toothless, I will leave you to ponder.


2) Scottish labour engaged in cold-calling registered voting pensioners to tell them that their state pension would cease if Yes won. This was an outright lie, however they did it anyway. After this, 75% of the 65+ demographic voted No.


Our pensions were last November declared to be the lowest in Europe. Since then, it has gone down further. Pensioners were frightened into voting for London to retain our country's wealth.


3) The BBC published nothing but manufactured bad news for Yes for 5 days solid right up until voting day. Announcements from banks were manipulated to seem like branches would close and jobs would be lost, routine NHS reports were distorted to seem like we couldn't afford it. No coverage of anything Yes related featured during this period from our state broadcaster, in clear yet care-free violation of their toothless charter.


Looking back now, post-voting statistics from Lord Ashcroft revealed that, of the No voting demographic, 9% of them decided on No within those final 7 days. Enough to prevent the previously-expected Yes result that most were expecting/predicting. The referendum outcome had been decisively changed in the final week through calculated malice and actions that made a mockery of the rules.


Sans this interference, Yes would most likely have won.


After the media spent 2 years calling Yes "uncertain" and making "Salmond has no Plan B" currency jokes, to watch them endorse the laughable back-of-a-fag-packet drivel that constituted their apparent "Plan A" was an absolute mockery of journalism. Their 'Vows' promised nothing, and they will deliver nothing. Not a single specific power was mentioned in any of it. Not one.


Gordon Brown's speech contained the only promise with any substance, a federalised UK which would cost London billions. As mentioned, Brown has no way to actually deliver on this. Westminster now say 3 years is apparently the soonest that anything can be devolved.


Now, three weeks after the vote, newspapers confirm everything that Yes was ridiculed for: The NHS IS under threat, oil WILL last 120 years, the fellow who predicted less has been rewarded with fracking contracts that we are powerless to prevent, Asda has been awarded the humiliating benefit card contract, bombs are sent to reinforce our military strength while the disabled and elderly die in poverty and fear due to public service cuts.


I'll be voting Yes in the next referendum that happens when the floating No voters realise they've been had and the nonsense promises that were made fail to materialise.


Until then, David Cameron can go f*** himself.

[Stranraer]

Just back from a Yes alliance meeting, apparently the SSP have been barred from submitting to the Smith commission. This may seem a stupid question but is it only those parties who have elected MSP's that can submit to it?

[johnbc70]

On day of indyref, FTSE 100 closed at 6,819 amid fears of a YES vote. Today, it is 6,360, nearly 500 down, post the No vote. ***** happens eh.

Yes caused by another impending recession in Europe which an iScotland would very much be part of, or would it, we never really knew that did we. While the UK continues to grow faster than the rest of Europe.

[#FromTheCapital]

A friend of a friend posted this on Facebook - couldn't have put it better myself.

Another bitter sounding post based on a wild assertion that hundreds of thousands changed their mind from yes to no in the last week. Funny how these polls were private and the public ones almost universally put no ahead. Yes was never going to win.

[johnbc70]

Is there any real evidence that Labour members called pensioners (they must have called tens of thousands to make any impact) and said their pensions would cease? Or is this another Internet rumour that because it came from a Yes source is taken as fact.

If it did happen then truly awful and those who did it should be named and shamed. But is there any evidence?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Another bitter sounding post based on a wild assertion that hundreds of thousands changed their mind from yes to no in the last week. Funny how these polls were private and the public ones almost universally put no ahead. Yes was never going to win.

If that's the only inaccuracy in that long passage of text, then it's a pretty damning indictment of those on the Union side.

The breach of purdah rules is the most galling. It was supposed to be a Scottish decision. If that's the case then the Westminster politicians should have stayed out of it.

It's now being portrayed as a victory for Cameron, and has contributed to the Tory bounce down south.

[johnbc70]

If that's the only inaccuracy in that long passage of text, then it's a pretty damning indictment of those on the Union side.

The breach of purdah rules is the most galling. It was supposed to be a Scottish decision. If that's the case then the Westminster politicians should have stayed out of it.

It's now being portrayed as a victory for Cameron, and has contributed to the Tory bounce down south.

What about the claim of calling pensioners? Is that accurate? The post implies it was these calls that made the difference. To make any difference then there would have to have been tens of thousands of calls made. It may have happened, but looking for the evidence.

[#FromTheCapital]

If that's the only inaccuracy in that long passage of text, then it's a pretty damning indictment of those on the Union side.

The breach of purdah rules is the most galling. It was supposed to be a Scottish decision. If that's the case then the Westminster politicians should have stayed out of it.

It's now being portrayed as a victory for Cameron, and has contributed to the Tory bounce down south.

It was a scottish decision, nobody can possibly say any different, as only people living in Scotland could vote. It affected the UK though, so Westminster politicians had every right to get involved.

Fairly certain that the edinburgh agreement did not stipulate a 28 day deadline. I think it was about 2 weeks max. When was 'the vow' initially made?

[Jack]

What about the claim of calling pensioners? Is that accurate? The post implies it was these calls that made the difference. To make any difference then there would have to have been tens of thousands of calls made. It may have happened, but looking for the evidence.

Was there not the old saying 'tell your granny about anything and the whole street will find out' Old folk were the Facebook of previous generations.

[over the line]

If that's the only inaccuracy in that long passage of text, then it's a pretty damning indictment of those on the Union side.

The breach of purdah rules is the most galling. It was supposed to be a Scottish decision. If that's the case then the Westminster politicians should have stayed out of it.

It's now being portrayed as a victory for Cameron, and has contributed to the Tory bounce down south.

But the whole of the UK would have been affected by the break up of the Union wouldn't it? So of course Westminster politicians should of got involved, to protect the interests of the UK.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What about the claim of calling pensioners? Is that accurate? The post implies it was these calls that made the difference. To make any difference then there would have to have been tens of thousands of calls made. It may have happened, but looking for the evidence.

Point taken, sounds like BS to me.


It was a scottish decision, nobody can possibly say any different, as only people living in Scotland could vote. It affected the UK though, so Westminster politicians had every right to get involved.

Fairly certain that the edinburgh agreement did not stipulate a 28 day deadline. I think it was about 2 weeks max. When was 'the vow' initially made?

Was it a Scottish decision, or a UK decision then? Seems to me it was a Scottish one right up to the point it looked like a yes vote. Suddenly the UK started to pay attention.


But the whole of the UK would have been affected by the break up of the Union wouldn't it? So of course Westminster politicians should of got involved, to protect the interests of the UK.

So why say it was for the Scots alone to decide their destiny?

[over the line]

Was there not the old saying 'tell your granny about anything and the whole street will find out' Old folk were the Facebook of previous generations.

I was under the impression that the vast majority of the older generation were nailed on No voters anyway. Surely the battle was already won by No in this section of the electorate wasn't it? Not sure how many votes would be gained by preaching to the converted, certainly not a decisive amount anyway.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I was under the impression that the vast majority of the older generation were nailed on No voters anyway. Surely the battle was already won by No in this section of the electorate wasn't it? Not sure how many votes would be gained by preaching to the converted, certainly not a decisive amount anyway.

:agree:

[over the line]

Point taken, sounds like BS to me.



Was it a Scottish decision, or a UK decision then? Seems to me it was a Scottish one right up to the point it looked like a yes vote. Suddenly the UK started to pay attention.



So why say it was for the Scots alone to decide their destiny?

The Scots (or at least the current residents of Scotland) did decide their own destiny, as only they had the vote. They may have been swayed by 'outside' influences, but ultimately the Scots made the decision. All affected parties (not meant in a political sense) are bound to get involved in such a decision. The outcome had huge ramifications for the whole UK, whatever your stance on independence. Let's spin it on its head, about 43 million of the UK electorate didn't get a say in a referendum that would have affected them hugely.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The Scots (or at least the current residents of Scotland) did decide their own destiny, as only they had the vote. They may have been swayed by 'outside' influences, but ultimately the Scots made the decision. All affected parties (not meant in a political sense) are bound to get involved in such a decision. The outcome had huge ramifications for the whole UK, whatever your stance on independence. Let's spin it on its head, about 43 million of the UK electorate didn't get a say in a referendum that would have affected them hugely.

So why say otherwise at the start?

[SneakersO'Toole]

A friend of a friend posted this on Facebook - couldn't have put it better myself.

I lost interest after reading "statistical certainty" for a YES win based on polls. What a load of drivel!

Anyone can rant and rave about what the polls said and manipulate things to their own agenda. The part about BT
cold calling pensioners to strengthen their position is so unbelievable that its laughable, for reasons that another poster has already stipulated.

Whoever wrote that piece that you posted comes across a bitter, undignified fool who clearly hasn't learned the life lesson "speak only when you have something worth saying".

[Jack]

What about the claim of calling pensioners? Is that accurate? The post implies it was these calls that made the difference. To make any difference then there would have to have been tens of thousands of calls made. It may have happened, but looking for the evidence.

Was there not the old saying 'tell your granny about anything and the whole street will find out' Old folk were the Facebook of previous generations.

[over the line]

So why say otherwise at the start?

Sorry you've lost me a bit, how did they say different at the start? (genuine question, not meant to sound obtuse).

[Phil D. Rolls]

Sorry you've lost me a bit, how did they say different at the start? (genuine question, not meant to sound obtuse).

Cameron said it was a matter for the Scottish people and he wouldn't get involved. A line followed by the other Westminster parties.

However when the decision looked like it was going against them it became a UK matter.

[over the line]

Cameron said it was a matter for the Scottish people and he wouldn't get involved. A line followed by the other Westminster parties.

However when the decision looked like it was going against them it became a UK matter.

Oh right I see. Fair enough then.

[Just Alf]

I was under the impression that the vast majority of the older generation were nailed on No voters anyway. Surely the battle was already won by No in this section of the electorate wasn't it? Not sure how many votes would be gained by preaching to the converted, certainly not a decisive amount anyway.

I would agree with that. :agree:
(My folks were "yessers" tho :-)

I would add that the in-laws did get a wee call and pensions were mentioned, dunno the detail and both out laws were confirmed no anyway (ironically driven by what might happen to their private pensions!)

[Moulin Yarns]

Independent MSP for Highland, John Finnie, (formerly of the SNP) has joined the Scottish Green Party and is attending the Scottish Greens conference at Napier Uni today. He will sit with other Green MSPs Patrick Harvie and Alison Johnstone at Holyrood.

[Betty Boop]

Unison members vote YES for strike action on Tuesday 21st October.

[Moulin Yarns]

Unison members vote YES for strike action on Tuesday 21st October.

Only 53% of the votes cast were for strike action. Less than voted No on the 18th. Scottish membership is around 150,000 and I've thrown out the result but it was something like 9500 in favour, meaning 140,500 didn't vote for strike action.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Unison members vote YES for strike action on Tuesday 21st October.

Not against a strike, per se. But I'm a Unison member and didn't get a ballot paper. I hope they're not doing anything silly.

[Betty Boop]

Not against a strike, per se. But I'm a Unison member and didn't get a ballot paper. I hope they're not doing anything silly.


Have you changed your address ?

[Phil D. Rolls]

Unison members vote YES for strike action on Tuesday 21st October.


Have you changed your address ?

No, I recently changed my branch - from Fife, to Lothian, but I've had correspondence to confirm that. They should know where I am, would it have been sent to my workplace?

[Betty Boop]

No, I recently changed my branch - from Fife, to Lothian, but I've had correspondence to confirm that. They should know where I am, would it have been sent to my workplace?


I got mine at my home address. Phone Infirmary Street 554 7488.

[Phil D. Rolls]

I got mine at my home address. Phone Infirmary Street 554 7488.

Bit late now if they've voted. I'll check my "in tray" I may have overlooked it along with the bills.

[Betty Boop]

Bit late now if they've voted. I'll check my "in tray" I may have overlooked it along with the bills.

Yea but for future correspondence.

[One Day Soon]

A friend of a friend posted this on Facebook - couldn't have put it better myself.


Dearie me that's squarely in the fantasist space along with grassy knoll gunmen and September 11th plots.

Only one poll ever put Yes ahead and that is widely believed to have been rogue. Indeed Kellner has since stated the he wished it could be airbrushed from history because of its embarrassing inaccuracy. He should know, it was his poll.

[hibsbollah]

Dearie me that's squarely in the fantasist space along with grassy knoll gunmen

Dont tell me you're a 'book depository building' man? Now THAT'S crazy talk.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not against a strike, per se. But I'm a Unison member and didn't get a ballot paper. I hope they're not doing anything silly.

All Unison ballots are handled by the Electoral Commission so it would have come from them, white envelope, with a barcode IIRC.

[Betty Boop]

All Unison ballots are handled by the Electoral Commission so it would have come from them, white envelope, with a barcode IIRC.

Will you be striking ?

[One Day Soon]

Dont tell me you're a 'book depository building' man? Now THAT'S crazy talk.

Conspiracies: Difficult to organise, impossible to keep secret. Anyway you should go read the The Numbers Game, I think you'd like it.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Yea but for future correspondence.


All Unison ballots are handled by the Electoral Commission so it would have come from them, white envelope, with a barcode IIRC.

My appointments secretary says she can't rule out the fact that may have ended up in the Recycling Out Tray by mistake. Call off the cops!

[Moulin Yarns]

Will you be striking ?


I won't. The reason being, in the current economic climate I felt the offer was the best possible.

My Council pays Living wage rather than mininum wage except to the modern apprentices (which I disagree with, they should get it too)

I believe the strike has been suspended, and there is an increased offer for 2015/16 amounting to 2.2% on scp 11 and above, a minimum of £7/hour and dropping SCP 5 and below. benefitting the lower grades. :thumbsup:

[Betty Boop]

I won't. The reason being, in the current economic climate I felt the offer was the best possible.

My Council pays Living wage rather than mininum wage except to the modern apprentices (which I disagree with, they should get it too)

I believe the strike has been suspended, and there is an increased offer for 2015/16 amounting to 2.2% on scp 11 and above, a minimum of £7/hour and dropping SCP 5 and below. benefitting the lower grades. :thumbsup:

Where are you hearing the Strike has been suspended ? I got a letter this morning saying strike is on a week on Tuesday.

[Moulin Yarns]

Where are you hearing the Strike has been suspended ? I got a letter this morning saying strike is on a week on Tuesday.

Sorry, now on my phone, but look at unison website

[ronaldo7]

Yes caused by another impending recession in Europe which an iScotland would very much be part of, or would it, we never really knew that did we. While the UK continues to grow faster than the rest of Europe.

You miss the point.

Things go up and down faster than a whores drawers. You're earlier point on the oil price whilst trying to have a dig at the Scottish Gov was the reason for my post.

[johnbc70]

You miss the point.

Things go up and down faster than a whores drawers. You're earlier point on the oil price whilst trying to have a dig at the Scottish Gov was the reason for my post.

No, I got your point and made another. I was having a dig at the White paper which had budgeted a significant part of future finances of Scotland on oil at $113 a barrel.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I wonder how many NO voters sang Flower of Scotland at Ibrox yesterday evening?

[#FromTheCapital]

I wonder how many NO voters sang Flower of Scotland at Ibrox yesterday evening?

So in your book it's not ok for the majority of scots to sing the national anthem?

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

People can sing what they want, NO voters would surely feel a bit daft singing it though.

[Phil D. Rolls]

So in your book it's not ok for the majority of scots to sing the national anthem?

Cant speak for anyone else, but I find it cringeworthy that people an sing a rebel song about a nation rising again, and vote against the principle of Independence. We need a new anthem that doesn't make us look like idiots.

You can't always have it both ways. If you don't want independence don't sing the song.

[#FromTheCapital]

Cant speak for anyone else, but I find it cringeworthy that people an sing a rebel song about a nation rising again, and vote against the principle of Independence. We need a new anthem that doesn't make us look like idiots.

You can't always have it both ways. If you don't want independence don't sing the song.

The majority including myself weren't voting against the principal of independence. It was more to do with the plan, or lack of, as soon as we became independent. So basically, people can sing it if they want. The ones who are against the principal of independance probably don't sing it anyway.

[Peevemor]

The majority including myself weren't voting against the principal of independence. It was more to do with the plan, or lack of, as soon as we became independent. So basically, people can sing it if they want. The ones who are against the principal of independance probably don't sing it anyway.

So what's the plan now at Westminster? The country's going tits up from what I can see.

[Phil D. Rolls]

The majority including myself weren't voting against the principal of independence. It was more to do with the plan, or lack of, as soon as we became independent. So basically, people can sing it if they want. The ones who are against the principal of independance probably don't sing it anyway.

Fair point, in principle. Is there evidence that the majority of No voters were pro Independence? I thought they wanted the best of both worlds.

I think our national anthem could be described, at best, as ironic at the moment. It can sit easily alongside our national animal, the unicorn. Both represent a Scotland that exists in a parallel universe.

[#FromTheCapital]

So what's the plan now at Westminster? The country's going tits up from what I can see.

You and many other yes voters are just going to see bad in everything that happens in the UK from now on I suppose. Any slight bad thing that happens will be painted in a much worse light than it actually is, just like it was before the referendum.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Only 53% of the votes cast were for strike action. Less than voted No on the 18th. Scottish membership is around 150,000 and I've thrown out the result but it was something like 9500 in favour, meaning 140,500 didn't vote for strike action.

I always get a laugh at this stuff. The Tories are very keen to push an agenda where a majority of the members of a union must vote for a strike for it to go ahead. The very party who firmly support an electoral system where no government has been elected with 50% or more of the popular vote since the 1930s.

Not voting in any democratic process doesn't mean you supported one view or the other .... it means you didn't have an opinion and are prepared to accept the outcome brought about by those who did vote.

IMO if you join a union and that union votes to strike you should support that strike. If you are not prepared to do so you should leave the union.

As a member of the CPS for 35 years, some of it as a union rep, I couldn't help laughing up my sleeve at the ( far too many ) folk I worked with who scabbed on a consistent basis making the union weak in the face of a never ending onslaught on pay and hard fought for conditions.
When the government decided to turn its attention to messing with their pensions, in the sure and certain knowledge that based on past experience the CPS was far too weak to do anything about it, you should have heard those very same folk bitching and whining .... apparently oblivious to the ironic fact that it was folk like them who invited the bosses to piss on their leg in the first place.

[Peevemor]

You and many other yes voters are just going to see bad in everything that happens in the UK from now on I suppose. Any slight bad thing that happens will be painted in a much worse light than it actually is, just like it was before the referendum.

Believe me, this is nothing new for me and the referendum has nothing to do with it.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Fair point, in principle. Is there evidence that the majority of No voters were pro Independence? I thought they wanted the best of both worlds.

I think our national anthem could be described, at best, as ironic at the moment. It can sit easily alongside our national animal, the unicorn. Both represent a Scotland that exists in a parallel universe.

Our so called national anthem is a dirge .... All that 'gainst who !!!' stuff makes me bloody cringe.

As for the Unicorn .... Its use as a heraldic representation of Scotland is long established and anyway whats the difference between that and for example the English Lion .... when was the last time Lions roamed the English countryside.

Having said that IMO we should have gone for the Scottish Wild Cat or the Spider. Especially the Spider .... if at first you don't succeed try try again and all that.

[RyeSloan]

Fair point, in principle. Is there evidence that the majority of No voters were pro Independence? I thought they wanted the best of both worlds. I think our national anthem could be described, at best, as ironic at the moment. It can sit easily alongside our national animal, the unicorn. Both represent a Scotland that exists in a parallel universe.

Flower of Scotland is a rather silly national anthem anyway...about as silly as having a Unicorn as a national animal.

I agree with the Op in this one...most Noers I spoke to had no real issue with the concept of independence, their main issue was the inept and unclear way the Salmond version was presented.

I see though that many are struggling to move on from the result. I can see why but in all honesty it's all a bit boring now. I would much rather see a discussion on why the majority voted no and a togetherness in modernising Scotland in the post No vote world. It would seem many didn't fancy the prospect of the current Scotland being independent, it would be interesting to know why and to assess what needs to be done to change that view.

A new national anthem and a new national animal could be a good start ;-)

[Rasta_Hibs]

Flower of Scotland should never been the national anthem. Imo Scotland is better than the bitter wee, stuck in the past anti English song that flower of Scotland is. It's a nasty wee song!

[Rasta_Hibs]

The nationalists would tear this country apart just for their own selfish nationalist ideology. They will take it so far before the real Scots and the majority put them in their place once again!

[NAE NOOKIE]

Flower of Scotland should never been the national anthem. Imo Scotland is better than the bitter wee, stuck in the past anti English song that flower of Scotland is. It's a nasty wee song!

"Those days are past now, and in the past they must remain". From that point of view the song does have some balance ... anyway the US national anthem harks back to long past conflict, its not just us to be fair. In fact so does the British anthem .. rebellious Scots to crush?

My objection to it is that its just a rubbish song :greengrin

[NAE NOOKIE]

The nationalists would tear this country apart just for their own selfish nationalist ideology. They will take it so far before the real Scots and the majority put them in their place once again!

That's me pit in ma place.

[Peevemor]

The nationalists would tear this country apart just for their own selfish nationalist ideology. They will take it so far before the real Scots and the majority put them in their place once again!

Yeah, luckily UKIP are on the rise to stop that happening.

[Rasta_Hibs]

That's me pit in ma place.

If only it was that easy. Nationalists will stop at nothing, no cost will be too much and concerns will be brushed off as scare stories.

But aye the song is honking. Skips past ww1 and ww2 to remind us all of the wars between Scotland and England. I never sang it before and the lips won't move for it now lol

[Rasta_Hibs]

Yeah, luckily UKIP are on the rise to stop that happening.

SNP and UKIP I put in the same bracket.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Flower of Scotland is a rather silly national anthem anyway...about as silly as having a Unicorn as a national animal.

I agree with the Op in this one...most Noers I spoke to had no real issue with the concept of independence, their main issue was the inept and unclear way the Salmond version was presented.

I see though that many are struggling to move on from the result. I can see why but in all honesty it's all a bit boring now. I would much rather see a discussion on why the majority voted no and a togetherness in modernising Scotland in the post No vote world. It would seem many didn't fancy the prospect of the current Scotland being independent, it would be interesting to know why and to assess what needs to be done to change that view.

A new national anthem and a new national animal could be a good start ;-)

Perfectly put, I couldn't agree more. That's why I fundamentally disagree with any movement looking to take forward the cause of independence calling itself the 45% ... all that does is highlight division, when the idea should be to win folk over.

[Peevemor]

SNP and UKIP I put in the same bracket.


Enough said.

[NAE NOOKIE]

SNP and UKIP I put in the same bracket.

**** you !!!

[Peevemor]

**** you !!!

Enough said.

[Phil D. Rolls]

You and many other yes voters are just going to see bad in everything that happens in the UK from now on I suppose. Any slight bad thing that happens will be painted in a much worse light than it actually is, just like it was before the referendum.

Any slight thing, like a Fascist MP, another war, NHS cuts. Far too sensitive those separatists. :faf:

[Phil D. Rolls]

SNP and UKIP I put in the same bracket.

So do a lot of lazy journalists in England. Hope you're happy to line up alongside them.

[Rasta_Hibs]

So do a lot of lazy journalists in England. Hope you're happy to line up alongside them.

No it's just two party's who do more harm than good with their own wee brand of nationalism.

[One Day Soon]

I wonder how many NO voters sang Flower of Scotland at Ibrox yesterday evening?


Its a loathesome wee dirge of a song in my book. The musical version of see you Jimmy hats, tartan dolls on the Royal Mile and the White Heather Club all rolled into one.

One reason why everyone should be grateful that we voted against independence is that it isn't now going to be played endlessly at every excuse/opportunity or alternatively that we would have had some extended godawful debate about what our national anthem should have been.

Who decided it should be played at the football and rugby anyway? Not in my name.

As to who is allowed to sing it, that's nobody's business but each individual. We haven't yet got anthem fascism. Unlike light bulbs where we very definitely have lighting fascism in operation. Have you tried to buy a thin bayonet light bulb above 40 watt recently? Country's going to the dogs...

[Phil D. Rolls]

No it's just two party's who do more harm than good with their own wee brand of nationalism.

Yes, I can see you've given it a lot of thought.n:agree:

[NAE NOOKIE]

No it's just two party's who do more harm than good with their own wee brand of nationalism.

What an utterly simplistic view of the political landscape. In what way does that statement justify lumping UKIPs view of how the future of these islands should pan out and the SNPs view on what sort of a country Scotland should be.

Perhaps you could outline for me the harmful nature of the SNPs viewpoint that Scotland should be an inclusive nation where care for the disadvantaged and poorest should be at the forefront of political and social thinking, rather than viewed as a bloody inconvenience which gets in the way of the real goal of making money and keeping the vast majority in the role of a commodity to be used for the furthering of big business and monetarism or if you want todays phrase of the moment Neo Liberalism.

[#FromTheCapital]

Any slight thing, like a Fascist MP, another war, NHS cuts. Far too sensitive those separatists. :faf:

Another war: would it made any difference to you if we'd been independent? The fact that people are getting killed is what saddens me and it wouldn't make me feel any better to say 'aw well at least my country isn't involved'. It's a global issue.

NHS cuts makes me laugh as its my job to sell to the NHS. Believe me, scotland has been making cuts since the SNP were in power. The Scottish nhs is a procurement obsessed joke and much more difficult to sell to than London hospitals for example. The cheap option usually always wins. The truth of the matter is that more money needs to be raised through taxes for the NHS to survive but politicians treat it like a hot potato. If everyone was to pay an extra £10 a month towards the NHS then it would have a much better outlook. Politicians are too scared to do this though.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Another war: would it made any difference to you if we'd been independent? The fact that people are getting killed is what saddens me and it wouldn't make me feel any better to say 'aw well at least my country isn't involved'. It's a global issue.

NHS cuts makes me laugh as its my job to sell to the NHS. Believe me, scotland has been making cuts since the SNP were in power. The Scottish nhs is a procurement obsessed joke and much more difficult to sell to than London hospitals for example. The cheap option usually always wins. The truth of the matter is that more money needs to be raised through taxes for the NHS to survive but politicians treat it like a hot potato. If everyone was to pay an extra £10 a month towards the NHS then it would have a much better outlook. Politicians are too scared to do this though.

We can't afford the war, and we could adopt a foreign policy which reflects our current priorities rather than one which harks back to an Imperialistic past.

Working in the NHS, I see little evidence of privatisation. I wouldn't argue with you about procurement though. I'd be in favour of more funding, and thought there was more chance in an iScotland, where the principles of the NHS would be enshrined in a written constitution.

[degenerated]

Enough said.
He's difficult to ignore but well worth the effort.
Never has the phrase "sometimes its better to keep quiet and appear stupid rather than open ones mouth and remove all doubt" been so apt.

[Moulin Yarns]

Great article by Lauren Laverne in today's Observer

[RIP]

Not a cats chance in hell.

IMO, a broad left of centre coalition encompassing all of the factions you refer to would be a complete waste of time. The infighting would be a joy to behold :greengrin

I consider myself to be left of centre SNP. Losing the referendum was a huge blow but, for me, your way forward would achieve nothing at the next General Election.

IMO, the best way to get a fairer Scottish society, is to remain a member of the SNP and work from within pursuing left of centre socially just policies.

The far left, in any guise, rarely get anything more than a derisory share of the vote at General Elections. The type of coalition you propose would do nothing more than split the vote in what are already pretty safe Labour seats.

Sorry bud but you are already behind the game. The Scottish Left Project launched today. 14 different groups have signed up and talks have begun with the Scottish Trade Unions.

Labour and the Nats are already running scared at the thought of a pro independence alternative to socialist labour. Far from targeting the far left it seeks to replace labour as the radical voice in Scottish politics.

[over the line]

IMO if you join a union and that union votes to strike you should support that strike. If you are not prepared to do so you should leave the union.

As a member of the CPS for 35 years, some of it as a union rep, I couldn't help laughing up my sleeve at the ( far too many ) folk I worked with who scabbed on a consistent basis making the union weak in the face of a never ending onslaught on pay and hard fought for conditions.
When the government decided to turn its attention to messing with their pensions, in the sure and certain knowledge that based on past experience the CPS was far too weak to do anything about it, you should have heard those very same folk bitching and whining .... apparently oblivious to the ironic fact that it was folk like them who invited the bosses to piss on their leg in the first place.

Totally agree. The whole point of a union is to stand together and make your point, whether the issue directly affects you or not. When I worked in Vauxhall Motors it just wasn't an option, you were in the union and you all took action together. When we walked out, all 6000 fellas walked out (well 5998 anyway, two fellas claimed religious grounds for not walking out). And this was around the turn of the century, I'm not harking back to the bad old days of the 70's.

[Hibrandenburg]

Totally agree. The whole point of a union is to stand together and make your point, whether the issue directly affects you or not. When I worked in Vauxhall Motors it just wasn't an option, you were in the union and you all took action together. When we walked out, all 6000 fellas walked out (well 5998 anyway, two fellas claimed religious grounds for not walking out). And this was around the turn of the century, I'm not harking back to the bad old days of the 70's.

Unfortunately today's society is different from back then. Most people join a union thinking they'll have the protection of being in a group of like minded individuals. Therein lies the problem though, many are like minded in that they consider their own needs and entitlements to come before those of others.

[Hibrandenburg]

Gordon Brown really is a snake. He's now distancing himself from the Tories saying it's up to Cameron to ensure the Vow is kept. They showed a united front on the run up to the referendum and he should now be ensuring his party keep up their end of the deal. Once he's done that he can then fling muck at the Tories for not doing the same. Until then you're still in bed with them Gordon.

[Rasta_Hibs]

What an utterly simplistic view of the political landscape. In what way does that statement justify lumping UKIPs view of how the future of these islands should pan out and the SNPs view on what sort of a country Scotland should be.

Perhaps you could outline for me the harmful nature of the SNPs viewpoint that Scotland should be an inclusive nation where care for the disadvantaged and poorest should be at the forefront of political and social thinking, rather than viewed as a bloody inconvenience which gets in the way of the real goal of making money and keeping the vast majority in the role of a commodity to be used for the furthering of big business and monetarism or if you want todays phrase of the moment Neo Liberalism.

Because the snp have never been a party with the poor at the forefront of their policy. It's only now coming of the back of a recession they are now being seen by some as a left wing socialist party. Or so it seems to me. But when it comes down to it their sums didn't add up and big cuts were coming and I believe we would have faced a long hard recession. Plus UKIP want freedom from Europe the UK s biggest trading partner just like the snp want independence from our biggest trading partner. Both doesn't make sense but both driven by their nationalists views.

[over the line]

Unfortunately today's society is different from back then. Most people join a union thinking they'll have the protection of being in a group of like minded individuals. Therein lies the problem though, many are like minded in that they consider their own needs and entitlements to come before those of others.

I fear that you are right, sad state of affairs (not you being correct like ;) ). Surely these people are just wasting their money by paying union dues then aren't they? Why opt to be in a union and then not be united? They are just weakening their union and making a mockery of the whole right to withdraw your labour. I mean these strikes are likely to consist of a few days here and there, we are not talking weeks or months without pay are we? Whenever we took industrial action we ran the risk of GM in Detroit, closing us down, public sector workers don't have that concern do they? If people haven't even got the stomach for losing a few days pay, to make their point, then the unions may as well throw the towel in right now!

[cabbageandribs1875]

Because the snp have never been a party with the poor at the forefront of their policy. It's only now coming of the back of a recession they are now being seen by some as a left wing socialist party. Or so it seems to me. But when it comes down to it their sums didn't add up and big cuts were coming and I believe we would have faced a long hard recession. Plus UKIP want freedom from Europe the UK s biggest trading partner just like the snp want independence from our biggest trading partner. Both doesn't make sense but both driven by their nationalists views.



oh ? a freeze on that damn community charge and free prescriptions, now, considering the facts(or so i read) that the 'poorer' in society are more prone to illness and struggle to make ends meet i think that's at least two most welcome policy's :agree: god help the poorest in society if the Labour party ever get full control of Holyrood, no thanks

[Phil D. Rolls]

I fear that you are right, sad state of affairs (not you being correct like ;) ). Surely these people are just wasting their money by paying union dues then aren't they? Why opt to be in a union and then not be united? They are just weakening their union and making a mockery of the whole right to withdraw your labour. I mean these strikes are likely to consist of a few days here and there, we are not talking weeks or months without pay are we? Whenever we took industrial action we ran the risk of GM in Detroit, closing us down, public sector workers don't have that concern do they? If people haven't even got the stomach for losing a few days pay, to make their point, then the unions may as well throw the towel in right now!

A couple of years ago, my sister was told by her shop steward that they'd get a Unison member to cover her shift if she went on strike. She gave her days pay to the strike fund instead.

It seems to me the whole concept of collective representation has gone, and as has been said, people see it more as a personal protection scheme.

[Rasta_Hibs]

oh ? a freeze on that damn community charge and free prescriptions, now, considering the facts(or so i read) that the 'poorer' in society are more prone to illness and struggle to make ends meet i think that's at least two most welcome policy's :agree: god help the poorest in society if the Labour party ever get full control of Holyrood, no thanks

Aye I good policy but made within the UK.