Scottish Independence

[Moulin Yarns]

Leaked Scottish Government papers suggest a £400m NHS funding gap and some cost-cutting post-independence. If this is genuine, it's just another thing that we're not being told (and I'm talking about the entire debate) and makes a bit of a mockery of the "Vote Yes to protect the NHS" argument.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416


Leaked NHS and Civil service papers I think you will find. Also it says nothing about 'post Independence' but 'post referendum', regardless of the outcome. In other words, if it is a NO then there will still be £400m savings needing to be found in 2015/2016. That budget is already set, it has absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of the referendum.


Just another scare story. This shortfall is real, yes, but because of tightening of budgets across the board. I work in local Government, and I've been told our budgets are safe for 2015/16 but we are looking at 15% cuts in 2016/17. Again, that will happen whether there is a Yes or No on Thursday.

[Beefster]

It would really help if you read it first:



2015/16 is not post-independence. If true, this is a funding gap under the present devolved arrangement.

I did read it but you're right. I misread it. Apologies.

Presumably, the SNP will be scrapping free prescriptions and the council tax freeze before they touch the NHS?

[JeMeSouviens]

First crack in the Unionist currency wall? Jeremy Warner in the Telegraph:


Westminster must immediately abandon all this nonsense about not allowing Scotland to use the pound. On the right terms, monetary union between Scotland and the rest of the UK is perfectly feasible. Wider monetary union in Europe has manifestly failed but few would challenge its efficacy between, say, Germany and Austria. Scotland and the rest of the UK are similarly integrated, economically and contractually. Yet there has to be a price. Scotland must surrender sovereignty to keep the pound, as Europe has in keeping the euro.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeremy-warner/11098012/If-it-comes-to-it-please-lets-have-an-amicable-divorce-fom-Scotland.html

[JeMeSouviens]

I did read it but you're right. I misread it. Apologies.

Presumably, the SNP will be scrapping free prescriptions and the council tax freeze before they touch the NHS?

Ummm, free prescriptions would be the NHS, no?

Don't mention the CTF! :paranoid:

[MyJo]

Leaked Scottish Government papers suggest a £400m NHS funding gap and some cost-cutting post-independence. If this is genuine, it's just another thing that we're not being told (and I'm talking about the entire debate) and makes a bit of a mockery of the "Vote Yes to protect the NHS" argument.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29213416

It says the £400m funding gap is for 2015/16. This is while we are still a part of the UK??

We will be independent from march 2016, all going well meaning 2016/17 will be the first "post-independence" tax year.

Edit: didn't notice this had already been answered when I replied :greengrin #readallthepagesfirst

[Moulin Yarns]

Can we unite for a minute?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubO_Uib-1tA

:thumbsup:

[JimBHibees]

An interesting take on the North Sea oil debate from former Westminster Chancellor Denis Healy:

http://m.stv.tv/news/politics/225958-denis-healey-westminster-worried-stiff-about-losing-north-sea-oil/

Originally written last year but re-published by STV today.

Healey admitted clearly previously that oil was deliberately understated by Westminster as proven by the scandalous silencing of the McCrone report. Again history repeating itself.

[Beefster]

The Herald backs a No vote...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/herald-view/once-in-a-lifetime-opportunity-to-cast-a-future-that-meets-the-aspirations-of-sc.25295912

[Stranraer]

It would really help if you read it first:



2015/16 is not post-independence. If true, this is a funding gap under the present devolved arrangement.

There's no talking to "natural Tories" sometimes :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

The Herald backs a No vote...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/herald-view/once-in-a-lifetime-opportunity-to-cast-a-future-that-meets-the-aspirations-of-sc.25295912

An interesting article. Essentially they argue for one last chance at a compromise. Below is the key passage I think and in it the Herald perceptively outlines why the compromise they're looking for is doomed to fail. Labour too timid (and intellectually incoherent and electorally self interested), the rest of the UK just not interested in the sort of constitutional upheaval they'd have to undergo to balance out the Scottish changes and make it work.



It is critically important all three parties, and Labour in particular, show greater ambition and determination to implement a substantial expansion of Scottish Parliament powers. The proposals of the LibDems and Conservatives are a good potential starting point but Labour's simply do not go far enough. A radical reassignment of tax-varying powers and elements of welfare policy are a widespread public expectation in the event of a No vote. What cannot be allowed to emerge is a constitutional settlement for Scotland that panders to that lowest common denominator, put together in a backroom deal at Westminster.

This plan must be made in Scotland, for Scotland, with the full participation of Scottish civic society. Better Together's proposed timetable for change, with legislation being brought forward by January, is desirable, but a superficial exercise in public consultation will only undermine the process. It will be The Herald's mission to harry the pro-UK parties every step of the way, to ensure they deliver the devolution Scotland wants and expects.

To them, we say this: The Herald backs Scotland staying within the UK at this stage. But fudge this process, stitch it up and fail to deliver far-reaching further devolution, and make no mistake: you will be guaranteeing another referendum - one that you will lose, and deserve to lose.

Greater autonomy for Scotland would be best achieved within a federal United Kingdom. A federal structure would create less antagonistic relationships between all the constituent parts of the UK.

A UK constitutional convention should therefore be established, separately from the process of greater Scottish devolution, to consider issues such as the setting up of an English parliament (answering the West Lothian Question), reform of the House of Lords, greater power to the nations and English regions, and renaming the Bank of England.

[Phil D. Rolls]

An interesting article. Essentially they argue for one last chance at a compromise. Below is the key passage I think and in it the Herald perceptively outlines why the compromise they're looking for is doomed to fail. Labour too timid (and intellectually incoherent and electorally self interested), the rest of the UK just not interested in the sort of constitutional upheaval they'd have to undergo to balance out the Scottish changes and make it work.

Speaking to committed separatists, they don't seem too despondent about a no vote this week. They recognise that this campaign has focused people on whether the union works or not.

There had been scant evidence that Westminster has any aptitude at all for change. In the short to medium term, the Scots voters will realise that they are being conned, and will demand another referendum.

This will be brought about by another SNP majority at Holyrood arising from disaffection with the UK general election result. I can guarantee Labour will not form the next government in London, and that whoever is in power will have to deal with the eurosceptics and outright racists on the right of Team Boris, and Team Farage.

Seems to me No voters haven't the imagination to foresee these developments, or are burying their heads in the sand in the hope they'll go away. I hope that criticism doesn't sound like bullying, by the way.

[The_Exile]

800 billion barrels likely from the clair oil field. 87 years worth at 250, 000 barrels a day. Trillions. Lancaster field initial figures look promising also, estimates of 20, 000 barrels per day from a single well.

[JeMeSouviens]

Speaking to committed separatists, they don't seem too despondent about a no vote this week. They recognise that this campaign has focused people on whether the union works or not.

There had been scant evidence that Westminster has any aptitude at all for change. In the short to medium term, the Scots voters will realise that they are being conned, and will demand another referendum.

This will be brought about by another SNP majority at Holyrood arising from disaffection with the UK general election result. I can guarantee Labour will not form the next government in London, and that whoever is in power will have to deal with the eurosceptics and outright racists on the right of Team Boris, and Team Farage.

Seems to me No voters haven't the imagination to foresee these developments, or are burying their heads in the sand in the hope they'll go away. I hope that criticism doesn't sound like bullying, by the way.

The campaign has also completely "normalised" the idea of independence. Even if we lose, nobody thinks it's impossible any more. That's a big win in itself.

The trap being laid for the SNP is pretty clear though, I think. Give Scotland tax power up to say 40% of revenue and the remaining 60% by block grant. Block grant continues to be Barnettised. Hey presto - the UK has got rid of 40% of the Barnett "subsidy" without changing the formula at all. Since the SNP can be happy with a close No and Labour are likely to be in post-ref total disarray, the SNP can get back in in 2016 and have to carry the can for the inevitable cuts.

[JeMeSouviens]

800 billion barrels likely from the clair oil field. 87 years worth at 250, 000 barrels a day. Trillions. Lancaster field initial figures look promising also, estimates of 20, 000 barrels per day from a single well.

Think you might be a couple of orders of magnitude too optimistic there. :wink:

But even at 8 billion barrels it's still a massive field and there is a lot of new exploration going on in the Atlantic margin combined with ever improving technology to get more out of every well.

[JeMeSouviens]

Tory bloodbath if more powers pushed through, says the Torygraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11098825/David-Cameron-faces-Tory-bloodbath-over-unfair-cash-for-Scotland.html


One female Tory MP said Mr Cameron’s promise, issued just two days before the polls open, was “desperate”.

“There will be a bloodbath. Last night as I was listening to Cameron saying we are going to be providing all these additional benefits to Scotland, when we are struggling in so many areas of the UK.

“It’s all happening on the hoof, in cliquey conversations on telephones in Downing Street. It isn’t happening, and there are a number of us who are incensed who will make sure it isn’t going to happen. But let’s see what the results are first.”

[Phil D. Rolls]

Tory bloodbath if more powers pushed through, says the Torygraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11098825/David-Cameron-faces-Tory-bloodbath-over-unfair-cash-for-Scotland.html

I just love the way that their only concern for the union is how it will effect their constituencies. Kind of debunks the "better together" approach to democracy, and shows that whole campaign up as being full of uncle Toms, and Quislings.

[stantonhibby]

I just love the way that their only concern for the union is how it will effect their constituencies. Kind of debunks the "better together" approach to democracy, and shows that whole campaign up as being full of uncle Toms, and Quislings.


Any chance at all of you arguing your point without the insults ? In the last few days I think we've had cowards, feart, no imagination and now Uncle Toms and Quislings. Classy stuff.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Any chance at all of you arguing your point without the insults ? In the last few days I think we've had cowards, feart, no imagination and now Uncle Toms and Quislings. Classy stuff.

Of course. I apologise for the offence, on reflection, I can see how upsetting it would be to be called that, when you are only making the decision your conscience and reflections have led you to.

I certainly wasn't aiming at the voters who support BT, but I do see many of its leaders as self serving politicians who have more interest in their own career in the union than caring about what's best for Scotland.

I feel that had they entered into an honest debate, instead of constant scaremongering, including saying that we are not able to make our own decisions, they may have gained more support over the piece than they have. I have to say, I am contemptious of the way they are now offering powers which they are unlikely to deliver.

It is for the BT campaign to ensure that these things happen after a No vote. Judging by their behaviour up until now, I fully expect them to be puppets of Uncle Ed., and as such I don't trust them to stand up for Scotland. I stop short of calling them Quislings. as he was a man who did the will of an occupying dictatorship. Scotland is a democracy, and we have the right to punish these people at the ballot box.

Uncle Toms, though, I'm a bit easier with. I feel that the Better Together campaign has constantly chipped away at our confidence in our own abilities. That was shameful, rather than explain why we are Better Together, they were happy to tell us we aren't Good Enough.

[Leith Green]

Starting to just wish this was all over now, same old stuff just becomes very boring.. Cant wait til Thursday is done and dusted.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Tory bloodbath if more powers pushed through, says the Torygraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11098825/David-Cameron-faces-Tory-bloodbath-over-unfair-cash-for-Scotland.html

Aye exactly ..... a load of promises you wouldn't put a bad penny on coming to anything more than a re hash of what we have now. When the dust has settled the considerable right wing of the Tory party is going to give Cameron a kicking and to save his skin he will have to either cave in to them or wait to get the Thatcher treatment ... if they were prepared to stab her in the back, imagine what they will do to him.

As for Clegg ..... His coat is already on a shoogly peg, getting into bed with the Tories has been a disaster for the Lib Dems, their 1000/1 chances of ever being in government are probably now about 2000/1 ..... They blame Clegg and he will probably get booted quicker than Cameron.

As for Labour ..... They were probably more against further devolution than the other two to begin with. Miliband probably signed that bit of paper with tears in his eyes and white knuckles ... he also has the presence and personality of a dead Cod floating in Eyemouth harbour. Can anybody really see him leading Labour to a sweeping victory in 2015.

The vested interests at Westminster will drag this crap out until the time is right for the political pogrom to take place.

The No camp have scare stories coming out of their ears. For me the biggest scare story is a future Tory party lead by Boris Johnson trying to be more right wing than Nigel Farage in order to stop UKIP stealing Tory seats ....not to mention Tory MPs.

Vote ...................... YES

[snooky]

Of course. I apologise for the offence, on reflection, I can see how upsetting it would be to be called that, when you are only making the decision your conscience and reflections have led you to.

I certainly wasn't aiming at the voters who support BT, but I do see many of its leaders as self serving politicians who have more interest in their own career in the union than caring about what's best for Scotland.

I feel that had they entered into an honest debate, instead of constant scaremongering, including saying that we are not able to make our own decisions, they may have gained more support over the piece than they have. I have to say, I am contemptious of the way they are now offering powers which they are unlikely to deliver.

It is for the BT campaign to ensure that these things happen after a No vote. Judging by their behaviour up until now, I fully expect them to be puppets of Uncle Ed., and as such I don't trust them to stand up for Scotland. I stop short of calling them Quislings. as he was a man who did the will of an occupying dictatorship. Scotland is a democracy, and we have the right to punish these people at the ballot box.

Uncle Toms, though, I'm a bit easier with. I feel that the Better Together campaign has constantly chipped away at our confidence in our own abilities. That was shameful, rather than explain why we are Better Together, they were happy to tell us we aren't Good Enough.
:agree:

[hibsbollah]

Whisky sales 'dependent on union' Shock.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/sep/16/scotch-whisky-scottish-independence

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Starting to just wish this was all over now, same old stuff just becomes very boring.. Cant wait til Thursday is done and dusted.

It'll be far from over, whatever the outcome I think we will have to survive a wave of "unpleasantness" for a while, I sincerely hope I'm wrong though.

[Hibrandenburg]

Aye exactly ..... a load of promises you wouldn't put a bad penny on coming to anything more than a re hash of what we have now. When the dust has settled the considerable right wing of the Tory party is going to give Cameron a kicking and to save his skin he will have to either cave in to them or wait to get the Thatcher treatment ... if they were prepared to stab her in the back, imagine what they will do to him.

As for Clegg ..... His coat is already on a shoogly peg, getting into bed with the Tories has been a disaster for the Lib Dems, their 1000/1 chances of ever being in government are probably now about 2000/1 ..... They blame Clegg and he will probably get booted quicker than Cameron.

As for Labour ..... They were probably more against further devolution than the other two to begin with. Miliband probably signed that bit of paper with tears in his eyes and white knuckles ... he also has the presence and personality of a dead Cod floating in Eyemouth harbour. Can anybody really see him leading Labour to a sweeping victory in 2015.

The vested interests at Westminster will drag this crap out until the time is right for the political pogrom to take place.

The No camp have scare stories coming out of their ears. For me the biggest scare story is a future Tory party lead by Boris Johnson trying to be more right wing than Nigel Farage in order to stop UKIP stealing Tory seats ....not to mention Tory MPs.

Vote ...................... YES

But in the whole history of the UK there has never been a case where the leaders of all the main parties have backed a motion and lost.

[Beefster]

But in the whole history of the UK there has never been a case where the leaders of all the main parties have backed a motion and lost.

If you're going to attempt to take the piss, man up and do it directly in response to one of my posts.

Even better, debate my point or provide proof that I'm wrong rather than take snidey wee digs.

[Leith Green]

It'll be far from over, whatever the outcome I think we will have to survive a wave of "unpleasantness" for a while, I sincerely hope I'm wrong though.

Im more meaning in the media, just the same stuff over and over.. I want a Yes , and feel strongly enough to want it as long as I live, its just same ugly mugs repeating the same old **** over and over on the news etc

[Leith Green]

Im more meaning in the media, just the same stuff over and over.. I want a Yes , and feel strongly enough to want it as long as I live, its just same ugly mugs repeating the same old **** over and over on the news etc

And i have to be honest , listening to all the negativity towards my country is doing my nut in!

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Im more meaning in the media, just the same stuff over and over.. I want a Yes , and feel strongly enough to want it as long as I live, its just same ugly mugs repeating the same old **** over and over on the news etc

You're not wrong. I made up my mind a while ago so have stopped paying much attention to them to be honest. I have enjoyed both sides of the arguement on here though and have probably learned a fair bit in the process.

[The_Exile]

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/09/16/conocophillips-assetsale-idINL1N0RG2PP20140916

Apologies I've mucked up the quote and link on my tablet, it is 8 billion barrels.


Think you might be a couple of orders of magnitude too optimistic there. :wink:

But even at 8 billion barrels it's still a massive field and there is a lot of new exploration going on in the Atlantic margin combined with ever improving technology to get more out of every well.

[Leith Green]

You're not wrong. I made up my mind a while ago so have stopped paying much attention to them to be honest. I have enjoyed both sides of the arguement on here though and have probably learned a fair bit in the process.

Ive reached the point where its starting to drain me, I'm sure there are people on both sides who feel the same. Its something i believe in so much, i just want to know whats happening with our country without the sideshow

[Leith Green]

Scotsman/icm poll out has no 52 to Yes 48

[CropleyWasGod]

Scotsman/icm poll out has no 52 to Yes 48

17% undecided? :confused:

In other news, Bill Clinton says No. :rolleyes:

[Leith Green]

Scotsman/icm poll out has no 52 to Yes 48

Apparently this poll shows momentum towards Yes since same last comparative poll last month, pretty sceptical that ICM have produced 3 polls in 5 days showing 3 different outcomes..

Survation poll out at 10.30pm

[GlesgaeHibby]

17% undecided? :confused:

In other news, Bill Clinton says No. :rolleyes:

Undecideds will swing it towards Yes.

[Leith Green]

17% undecided? :confused:

In other news, Bill Clinton says No. :rolleyes:


I came to the conclusion a couple of days ago, that these polls are either hedging their bets, or full of ****

[Leith Green]

Undecideds will swing it towards Yes.

Mmmm, i hope so but not so sure. Isnt undecided more likely to vote for the status quo?

[Canongatehibs]

Gordon Brown's jaw sure is puzzling....is he a former Ecstasy head? Those jaws are grinding more than the No campaign's helpless cries of desperation....

[Leith Green]

Opinium also have it 52 no to 48 yes, this has Yes 2 points closer than their poll at the weekend

[Mon Dieu4]

I'd go along with the view that the polls don't really tell us a thing, with 97% signed up that means lots of first time voters that normally don't get involved! the polls don't take them into account as they no way of contacting them! as the majority of these people are from the poorer areas I'd be inclined to think they will vote yes

Great bit by Russell Brand here too, pretty much sums up how I feel

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u7VNQih51T0

[Leith Green]

So 3 polls at 52 no to 48 yes and a lot undecided.. Its looking tight if you throw the new electorate into the mix then this is looking tight

[NAE NOOKIE]

Whisky sales 'dependent on union' Shock.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/sep/16/scotch-whisky-scottish-independence

Hate the stuff .... no idea why anybody would want to drink it. Apart from that WTF has this subject got to do with a Dutch bank anyway? .... who asked them to comment on this and if nobody did what is their motive.

Here's my prediction ........... The Dutch downhill Skiing team have Fk all chance of a medal at the next winter Olympics.

[NAE NOOKIE]

17% undecided? :confused:

In other news, Bill Clinton says No. :rolleyes:

As does political genius and respected stateswoman Sarah Palin :faf:

[Stranraer]

Gordon Brown's jaw sure is puzzling....is he a former Ecstasy head? Those jaws are grinding more than the No campaign's helpless cries of desperation....

I'm a diehard Yes supporter too but there's no need for that.

[snooky]

As does political genius and respected stateswoman Sarah Palin :faf:

Ahhh, dear Sarah .... :not worth

"He who warned, uh, the British that they weren't gonna be takin' away our arms, uh, by ringing those bells, and um, makin' sure as he's riding his horse through town to send those warning shots and bells that we were going to be sure and we were going to be free, and we were going to be armed." --Sarah Palin, botching the history of Paul Revere's midnight ride, June 3, 2011

[Lewis77]

When in history have those who threaten ever had the best intentions for those whom they threat at heart?

[Colonel_HFC]

When in history have those who threaten ever had the best intentions for those whom they threat at heart?

Parents that threaten their children with being grounded etc. if they don't stop running onto the road without looking when they are playing, for instance.

[Moulin Yarns]

Whisky sales 'dependent on union' Shock.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/sep/16/scotch-whisky-scottish-independence


"sales (http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/02/james-bond-scotch-whisky-sales) could be hit if the country loses access to the EU's free trade area and to markets in the rest of the world where Brussels has forged trade deals."

Says it all, a Scotland outside of the EU will find it more difficult to trade in Europe and beyond. So it is essential for the Whisky industry that Scotland remain in the EU.

Where is the bigger threat to EU membership? I wonder

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/11/david-cameron-european-union-referendum-pledge (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/11/david-cameron-european-union-referendum-pledge)

[Moulin Yarns]

Parents that threaten their children with being grounded etc. if they don't stop running onto the road without looking when they are playing, for instance.


I think you are coming close to beating Patronising BT lady in the jaw dropping stakes with comments like that.

The people of Scotland are not children even though they are being treated like it by the Better Together camp with the carrot and stick approach of 'more powers if you vote no' But if you 'vote yes we take our pound away'

[Colonel_HFC]

I think you are coming close to beating Patronising BT lady in the jaw dropping stakes with comments like that.

The people of Scotland are not children even though they are being treated like it by the Better Together camp with the carrot and stick approach of 'more powers if you vote no' But if you 'vote yes we take our pound away'

Yes but I was replying because the original post said that there were no examples of this. And that is one.

[Colonel_HFC]

I think you are coming close to beating Patronising BT lady in the jaw dropping stakes with comments like that.

The people of Scotland are not children even though they are being treated like it by the Better Together camp with the carrot and stick approach of 'more powers if you vote no' But if you 'vote yes we take our pound away'

And I think you mean "pedantic" rather than patronising. This is patronising.

[Lewis77]

And I think you mean "pedantic" rather than patronising. This is patronising.

Regardless, you did compare Scotland and it's people to children who should adhere to parental threats. That is patronising and has been the approach used by much of the BT campaign. My initial post was in relation to politics/power/government, which you well know. So you were actually being pedantic as well as patronising, Kudos!

[Colonel_HFC]

Regardless, you did compare Scotland and it's people to children who should adhere to parental threats. That is patronising and has been the approach used by much of the BT campaign. My initial post was in relation to politics/power/government, which you well know. So you were actually being pedantic as well as patronising, Kudos!

No, it really was just pedantic in the first instance.

[CropleyWasGod]

No, it really was just pedantic in the first instance.
To be pedantic, he used the word "patronising" in reference to the BT ad.

[Colonel_HFC]

To be pedantic, he used the word "patronising" in reference to the BT ad.

Fair enough. I've not seen it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Fair enough. I've not seen it.

:rolleyes:

[DarrenSQH]

By this time tommorow my Yes vote will be in.

[Judas Iscariot]

By this time tommorow my Yes vote will be in.

Good.. Keep them coming :aok:

[JeMeSouviens]

George Monbiot, "How the media shafted the people of Scotland":

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists

[Betty Boop]

The treatment handed out to Ed Milliband, by the lynch mob yesterday, was well out of order.

[JimBHibees]

George Monbiot, "How the media shafted the people of Scotland":

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists

Quite simply a fantastic article.

[Beefster]

The treatment handed out to Ed Milliband, by the lynch mob yesterday, was well out of order.

Oh oh...

"I would never condone such treatment but...."

[DarrenSQH]

The treatment handed out to Ed Milliband, by the lynch mob yesterday, was well out of order.

What happened?

[Gus]

By this time tommorow my Yes vote will be in.

As will be my No vote :aok:

[JimBHibees]

Just watched Sky News they had a poll which indicated 61% of those polled didnt know what the new powers they were meant to be getting with a No vote. Absolutely scandalous.

[JeMeSouviens]

The treatment handed out to Ed Milliband, by the lynch mob yesterday, was well out of order.

Really? He took a media scrum into a tight, crowded shopping centre. A few folk shouted at him and there was a small bit of jostling, mainly it seems down to lack of space. Not exactly an Orgreave. :rolleyes:

The cynic in me can't help but feel he was going out of his way to find a lynch mob and they're having to spin it pretty hard to say he found one.

The UK's former ambassador to Uzbekistan was passing:

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/09/absolute-lies-from-the-guardian/

[SanFranHibs]

Mmmm, i hope so but not so sure. Isnt undecided more likely to vote for the status quo?

I have thought about this a lot and am hoping they are actually inclined to Yes but have been bombarded with scare story upon scare story. (Interesting article in the Guardian today regarding this http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists. And this guy is English).

I think all the No voters would have made up their mind that they are against it no matter what. The undecided are thinking about Yes but you may be right and they will shrink back from something they might actually want because they are worried and hear so many lies. I could not believe the chairman of the Deutsche Bank felt it in his remit to compare a Yes vote to the start of the great depression. Incredible.

As George Monbiot, an English Guardian writer said, 'A YES vote would unleash the most dangerous thing of all - HOPE!'

:saltireflag

[Beefster]

Just watched Sky News they had a poll which indicated 61% of those polled didnt know what the new powers they were meant to be getting with a No vote. Absolutely scandalous.

Without getting into the whole 'new powers' debate, voters have no idea what will happen after a Yes vote. Presumably you think that's scandalous too?


The UK's former ambassador to Uzbekistan was passing:

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/09/absolute-lies-from-the-guardian/

Unbelievable coincidence that such a high profile Yes supporter was passing at that exact time given that the Yes campaign don't organise these disruptions...

[JeMeSouviens]

Mmmm, i hope so but not so sure. Isnt undecided more likely to vote for the status quo?

The truth is nobody knows. The orthodox view is that DKs break to the status quo. Received wisdom from the likes of John Curtice and ICM's Martin Boon is that they'll find a Shy No vote lurking in the DKs who don't want to reveal their intention for fear of being seen as unpatriotic.

However, a couple of interesting things in the polls.

- They are almost without exception getting disproportionately high numbers of people born in rUK responding. To the point where some, eg. Yougov and Panelbase, have started weighting by country of birth and upweighting Scots born. Yes does better (unsurprisingly) among Scots born.

- Yes has tended to do better in anonymous online polls versus telephone or face to face.

I think these 2 factors might point to a Shy Yes: people who might be happy to admit to being deluded Braveheart-watching Nazi fantasists to their friends, but not to feel comfortable opening up to polling companies.

The polls still point to a consistent No lead, so they should win, but surprises are possible.

[johnbc70]

Just watched Sky News they had a poll which indicated 61% of those polled didnt know what the new powers they were meant to be getting with a No vote. Absolutely scandalous.

I have no idea what currency we get if it's a Yes, is that not scandalous the day before the vote?

Unless you can predict the future of course?

[JimBHibees]

Without getting into the whole 'new powers' debate, voters have no idea what will happen after a Yes vote. Presumably you think that's scandalous too?

No I dont I think most Yes voters are pretty comfortable with what will happen however for 2/3rds of the poll to have no idea what they are voting for beyond a staged promise is absolutely scandalous in a supposed democracy.

[JimBHibees]

I have no idea what currency we get if it's a Yes, is that not scandalous the day before the vote?

Unless you can predict the future of course?

Sterling it has been answered a million times including by Darling.

[JeMeSouviens]

Without getting into the whole 'new powers' debate, voters have no idea what will happen after a Yes vote. Presumably you think that's scandalous too?



Unbelievable coincidence that such a high profile Yes supporter was passing at that exact time given that the Yes campaign don't organise these disruptions...

Milliband's St James visit was off plan, he was supposed to be on the Royal Mile according to his schedule. So he's not only a high profile Yes supporter but has mystical powers!

[johnbc70]

Sterling it has been answered a million times including by Darling.

Is that with or without a currency union?

[JeMeSouviens]

Is that with or without a currency union?

Currency? Still struggling to make up your mind then? :wink:

[MyJo]

Without getting into the whole 'new powers' debate, voters have no idea what will happen after a Yes vote. Presumably you think that's scandalous too?

It is scandalous and it's thanks to David Cameron that nobody knows what they are voting for.

He refused to allow terms of independence to be negotiated unless there was a yes vote meaning anyone voting yes was going to have to do so blind and willing to take a risk.

He is also at fault for the lack or clarity around these extra powers as he has had three years to arrange a proposal of what we would get in return for voting no but has spent that time using fear and intimidation to scare people into voting no and when it looks like there is a possibility of yes winning suddenly there is an urge to put more powers on the table but this was only weeks before the vote and in purdah meaning they could not give detailed answers about what was on offer.

[johnbc70]

Currency? Still struggling to make up your mind then? :wink:

That's right, poke fun at the No voter and avoid the question.

[JimBHibees]

It is scandalous and it's thanks to David Cameron that nobody knows what they are voting for.

He refused to allow terms of independence to be negotiated unless there was a yes vote meaning anyone voting yes was going to have to do so blind and willing to take a risk.

He is also at fault for the lack or clarity around these extra powers as he has had three years to arrange a proposal of what we would get in return for voting no but has spent that time using fear and intimidation to scare people into voting no and when it looks like there is a possibility of yes winning suddenly there is an urge to put more powers on the table but this was only weeks before the vote and in purdah meaning they could not give detailed answers about what was on offer.

Totally agree yet in the interviews Salmond is scrutinised rigorously which is only right and proper while BT are given a relatively easy ride. Bird's interview of Darling last minute was shameful in its lack of rigour and was in stark contrast to the tone of the questions of Salmond and the cutting across answers she did.

[Beefster]

Milliband's St James visit was off plan, he was supposed to be on the Royal Mile according to his schedule. So he's not only a high profile Yes supporter but has mystical powers!

The Guardian reported that Miliband's plans leaked in advance of the visit.

[JimBHibees]

Interesting tweet from Jamie Murray

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23indyref

Jamie Murray ‏@jamie_murray 13h
Great effort from Yes Campaign to get to this point considering 95% of media is against them. #indyref

[Colonel_HFC]

Sterling it has been answered a million times including by Darling.

Darling doesn't decide. It's not been confirmed at all. It may have been answered - hell, you just answered it. Doesn't mean s**t. It's not been confirmed by anyone that has the power to confirm it.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Guardian reported that Miliband's plans leaked in advance of the visit.

Ok, so you think that Yes sent in the stormtroopers because the efforts of the entire Unionist press to paint them as fascist bully boys wasn't going well enough? That sounds quite likely.

[Colonel_HFC]

Interesting tweet from Jamie Murray

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23indyref

Jamie Murray ‏@jamie_murray 13h
Great effort from Yes Campaign to get to this point considering 95% of media is against them. #indyref

That depends how you define the word "interesting". Also, if there is anyone that should be listened to when making this kind of decision, it must surely be a tennis player.

[Peevemor]

Is that with or without a currency union?

Economists are predicitng a currency union because in the event of a Yes result, rUK can't afford not to.


http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/market-pressure-builds-on-george-osborne-to-confirm-currency-union/

[JimBHibees]

That depends how you define the word "interesting". Also, if there is anyone that should be listened to when making this kind of decision, it must surely be a tennis player.

Encouraging that someone who I respect is obviously intelligent. :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Darling doesn't decide. It's not been confirmed at all. It may have been answered - hell, you just answered it. Doesn't mean s**t. It's not been confirmed by anyone that has the power to confirm it.

Darling admitted that the pound could be used. He used to be the Chancellor.

[Beefster]

Ok, so you think that Yes sent in the stormtroopers because the efforts of the entire Unionist press to paint them as fascist bully boys wasn't going well enough? That sounds quite likely.

I wouldn't word it quite as bluntly as you have but I think it's within the bounds of possibility that a group of Yes campaigners in Edinburgh heard about the 'walkabout' beforehand and went along to disrupt it.

[The_Exile]

rUK can't afford the transaction/exchange rates if there wasn't a currency union. Cameron would be commiting political suicide if he refused it to prove a point.

[johnbc70]

Darling admitted that the pound could be used. He used to be the Chancellor.

Will ask again, with or without a currency union? Is it not scandalous that we are being asked to vote yet do not know?

As you pointed out he used to be chancellor, just ignore what the current one says who makes these decisons then will we?

[Peevemor]

Will ask again, with or without a currency union? Is it not scandalous that we are being asked to vote yet do not know?

As you pointed out he used to be chancellor, just ignore what the current one says who makes these decisons then will we?

Salmond is pushing for a currency union but it's not for him alone to decide. The Government won't admit that a currency union will be the outcome in the event of a Yes result, since that removes one of their pro-no scare stories.

It's the government's behaviour and disregard for the Scottish people in this respect (and others) that's been scandalous.

[JeMeSouviens]

That's right, poke fun at the No campaigner and avoid the question.

FTFY :wink:

You could always try a bit of poking fun yourself, you know?

Anyway, I'll give you an answer for you to dismiss.

SG negotiating position is a CU. Provided they get fiscal oversight (which the SG's working group recommends) I can't see a downside to this for rUK economically. Read Peston or a number of other economic commentators on the UK current account deficit. Darling's grand plan to use it as campaigning plan A, B, C, D and E has left them in a tricky political position though. Osbourne wanted to leave wriggle room and to an extent Carney's recent comments that CU is incompatible with sovereignty leave a tiny bit of that. They can sell fiscal oversight as Scotland ceding sovereignty and that's true, it would be a pooling of economic sovereignty, but the English Tory backbenchers may not go quietly.

Plan B (I assert) is sterlingisation, probably as a temporary measure leading to a pegged Scots £. The major argument against this, that you leave your banking system exposed with no lender of last resort, has largely evaporated over the last week as the banks have one by one come out to say that in this situation they will re-register in rUK, so they're rUK's problem.

[WeeRussell]

Darling doesn't decide. It's not been confirmed at all. It may have been answered - hell, you just answered it. Doesn't mean s**t. It's not been confirmed by anyone that has the power to confirm it.

Funnily enough it can't be confirmed, as it can't be applied for, as Scotland are not an independent country... yet.

Find it mental that BT and desperate NO voices are still picking on things that have been explained and developed as far as they can at this stage. "There's too much uncertainty" "they can't answer this"... of course there is uncertainty.. that's what happens when you do something new! You'd think that we are in a unique situation and that any other country going through this would already have their notes printed, their unions signed.. before we even know what the result is! All that can be done is to predict the likely scenarios and outcomes and prepare best for these... which to me has been done to a satisfactory level. Bitter together will continue to pick on anything that they think will register with voters, however, no matter how well anything is explained, or how many times its repeated.

Completely different to Westminster suddenly coming out and 'promising' new powers to Scotland in the event of a NO vote. None of David Cameron and his pals' last-ditch panic attempts to show us they care deeply and are willing to listen to Scotland have made me consider changing my mind before Thursday. If anything, they have consolidated my stance as a YES voter.


Still waiting on that ONE good reason.

[Beefster]

Darling admitted that the pound could be used. He used to be the Chancellor.

I don't think anyone can deny that the pound 'could' be used. The folk in a position to decide have said no though.

I'm loving the irony of Alistair Darling being used to support a Yes argument when any/everyone who says something that doesn't directly support independence gets dismissed out of hand (e.g. Alan Greenspan, Barroso, Spain's PM, Tom Hunter, RBS, Standard Life) though.

[The Harp Awakes]

I have thought about this a lot and am hoping they are actually inclined to Yes but have been bombarded with scare story upon scare story. (Interesting article in the Guardian today regarding this http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists. And this guy is English).

I think all the No voters would have made up their mind that they are against it no matter what. The undecided are thinking about Yes but you may be right and they will shrink back from something they might actually want because they are worried and hear so many lies. I could not believe the chairman of the Deutsche Bank felt it in his remit to compare a Yes vote to the start of the great depression. Incredible.

As George Monbiot, an English Guardian writer said, 'A YES vote would unleash the most dangerous thing of all - HOPE!'

:saltireflag

Refreshing to read a media article which shows a bit of balance.

The fact that the Yes support appears to be holding up in the opinion polls is nothing short of a miracle.

At the end of the day, I respect everyone's views and on the way they want to vote in the referendum. However, the part played and tactics deployed in the closing stages of this campaign by Cameron and the pro-unionist media has been distasteful and will live in many peoples memories regardless of the outcome.

[hughio]

Bookies in West End are offering (approx)1/4 Yes and 4/1 No

Sad to say I think its over.

[allmodcons]

I don't think anyone can deny that the pound 'could' be used. The folk in a position to decide have said no though.

I'm loving the irony of Alistair Darling being used to support a Yes argument when any/everyone who says something that doesn't directly support independence gets dismissed out of hand (e.g. Alan Greenspan, Barroso, Spain's PM, Tom Hunter, RBS, Standard Life) though.

You surely know by now, one day before polling, that this is incorrect.

The 'folk in a position to decide' cannot stop us using the pound.

They can refuse to enter a Currency Union but, as I'm sure you know, because the pound is an international tradeable currency nobody can stop us from using it in an iScotland.

[Beefster]

You surely know by now that this that this is incorrect.

The 'folk in a position to decide' cannot stop us using the pound.

They can refuse to enter a Currency Union but, as I'm sure you know, because the pound is a tradeable currency nobody can stop us from using it in an iScotland.

I was talking about a currency union.

You're right though, an independent Scotland could just use the pound without a union. It's a terrible idea though IMHO. I'd take the Euro long before that.

[degenerated]

I wouldn't word it quite as bluntly as you have but I think it's within the bounds of possibility that a group of Yes campaigners in Edinburgh heard about the 'walkabout' beforehand and went along to disrupt it.
There were in excess of 10,000 no campaigners marching in paramilitary uniforms, loudly displaying intolerance of Catholicism in Edinburgh on Saturday. That reeks far more of fascism than a handful of the electorate hectoring the leader of political party that has disenfranchised a large section of its core support.

[johnbc70]

All good points I agree, but I was responding to the point made that people voting No did not know what they were voting for and how it was 'scandalous'

While all good points and they may come to happen nobody knows so Yes are also being asked to vote on something they do not really know as well. But that's not scandalous though because it suits the agenda.

Nobody knows and a Yes and a No vote are just as much a jump into the unknown as each other.

[johnbc70]

Bookies in West End are offering (approx)1/4 Yes and 4/1 No

Sad to say I think its over.

You got that the right way round?

[Beefster]

There were in excess of 10,000 no campaigners marching in paramilitary uniforms, loudly displaying intolerance of Catholicism in Edinburgh on Saturday. That reeks far more of fascism than a handful of the electorate hectoring the leader of political party that has disenfranchised a large section of its core support.

I think you misquoted my post. I haven't used the word fascist recently (until now).

By the way, I'm not supporting the Orange Order. I'm one of those folk that they seem to dislike for some reason.

[The Harp Awakes]

Bookies in West End are offering (approx)1/4 Yes and 4/1 No

Sad to say I think its over.

The odds have been much the same for the past week and are based on the most reent opinion polls giving no a narrow lead.

Assuming last night polls are accurate, which I think is debateable given the uncertainties in the electorate, I did a quick calculation. If 2 in every 3 undecided voters votes Yes, Yes would win. I have been told that in my area stats have suggested 7 out of 8 undecided voters going to Yes.

In other words, tomorrow's outcome is too close to call, and in fairness the media has given this interpretation also.

As someone else pointed out it's actually 4/1 Yes and 1/4 No. 4/1 is a cracking bet on Yes - severely tempted.

[MyJo]

All good points I agree, but I was responding to the point made that people voting No did not know what they were voting for and how it was 'scandalous'

While all good points and they may come to happen nobody knows so Yes are also being asked to vote on something they do not really know as well. But that's not scandalous though because it suits the agenda.

Nobody knows and a Yes and a No vote are just as much a jump into the unknown as each other.

Nobody has said that not knowing what your voting for or the lack of hard answers isn't scandalous, it's utterly appalling but it is the fault of David Cameron that this is the case.

[JimBHibees]

Bookies in West End are offering (approx)1/4 Yes and 4/1 No

Sad to say I think its over.

Dont think it is to be honest. Very much up for grabs especially with the polls tight and even pollsters saying given the expected large turnout that it is too close to call. The odds will be on what money has gone on.

[degenerated]

I think you misquoted my post. I haven't used the word fascist recently (until now).

By the way, I'm not supporting the Orange Order. I'm one of those folk that they seem to dislike for some reason.
You're right you didn't, apologies for that erroneous assumption.

[Beefster]

You're right you didn't, apologies for that erroneous assumption.

No worries. We've all done it.


Vote no.

[allmodcons]

I was talking about a currency union.

You're right though, an independent Scotland could just use the pound without a union. It's a terrible idea though IMHO. I'd take the Euro long before that.

Terrible idea? Zero debt (i.e. - we have no debt obligation).

By the way, I've not been posting so much these days because I've been out canvassing those 'undecideds'.

I live in hope of a Yes vote tomorrow but can say, hand on heart, it has been good debating with you and other 'No' voters over the last year or so.

[Beefster]

Terrible idea? Zero debt (i.e. - we have no debt obligation).

By the way, I've not been posting so much these days because I've been out canvassing those 'undecideds'.

I live in hope of a Yes vote tomorrow but, can say hand on heart, it has been good debating with you and other 'No' voters over the last year or so.

Ditto!

[Moulin Yarns]

Fair enough. I've not seen it.

You really should, if anything will change your mind for the better (not together) then that could well be it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Darling doesn't decide. It's not been confirmed at all. It may have been answered - hell, you just answered it. Doesn't mean s**t. It's not been confirmed by anyone that has the power to confirm it.

Well, here's the thing, there is a general election between tomorrow and the proposed date that Independence takes effect, does your crystal ball tell you who wins that, let alone who will be the chancellor of the exchequer?

The only people who will still be in power on that date is Alex Salmond and John Swinney, so by your own reckoning they have more power to say that the currency will be the pound, than Darling, Cameron, Osborne and Clegg put together.

[Bristolhibby]

Bookies in West End are offering (approx)1/4 Yes and 4/1 No

Sad to say I think its over.

Just had a piece of Yes >54% at 7/1 on Bet Victor.

My eggs are in the "Pools are talking pish and have no idea what the 1.7m people who are new voters, dont have a phone, have previously been disengaged with politics and undecided flowing at 7 to 1 in favour of YES" basket.

As an aside, after the week of "shock and awe" from the establishment, the polls still shortened towards Yes. That fills me with hope. That despite every scaremongering stick and carrotting in No's locker, people are still moving towards YES.

J

[Phil D. Rolls]

Bookies in West End are offering (approx)1/4 Yes and 4/1 No

Sad to say I think its over.

Where is this bookie? I'll have some of that.

[JimBHibees]

Scottish police chief condemns No campaign for exaggerating aggression. Quelle surprise and hugely irresponsible when you consider some of the more extreme elements of the NO family. :rolleyes:


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/scottish-police-chairman-condemns-no-campaign-exaggerating-aggression?CMP=twt_gu

[Booker5time]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBOj1xAu2NQ

Loved this a rallying call for people voting yes:thumbsup:

[TrinityHibs]

Scottish police chief condemns No campaign for exaggerating aggression. Quelle surprise and hugely irresponsible when you consider some of the more extreme elements of the NO family. :rolleyes:


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/scottish-police-chairman-condemns-no-campaign-exaggerating-aggression?CMP=twt_gu

My son's colleague was called a ******ing unionist p**f at lunchtime yesterday by a Yes supporter who had clearly been celebrating Independence early. While he is a No supporter he did not have a badge or anything like that on him which could have led his "attacker" to know this although he did have a suit on. What was slightly concerning is the FUP is a solicitor and the Braveheart is one of his clients. Its certainly going to make their next meeting more interesting when the bold hero comes in asking for help to gain additional access to his kids. He didn't report this to anyone so the Police Chairman can rest easy.:greengrin

[Phil D. Rolls]

Scottish police chief condemns No campaign for exaggerating aggression. Quelle surprise and hugely irresponsible when you consider some of the more extreme elements of the NO family. :rolleyes:


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/scottish-police-chairman-condemns-no-campaign-exaggerating-aggression?CMP=twt_gu

Doesnt matter, the cliche of the week has been that Yes has been bullying people.

[Sergey]

This is an interesting article for you chickens out there.

http://www.scotlandnow.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/referendum-man-shocked-finds-piece-4275714

[Colonel_HFC]

Encouraging that someone who I respect is obviously intelligent. :greengrin

That's about as debatable as your ability to judge intelligence.

[Colonel_HFC]

Well, here's the thing, there is a general election between tomorrow and the proposed date that Independence takes effect, does your crystal ball tell you who wins that, let alone who will be the chancellor of the exchequer?

The only people who will still be in power on that date is Alex Salmond and John Swinney, so by your own reckoning they have more power to say that the currency will be the pound, than Darling, Cameron, Osborne and Clegg put together.

That makes no sense. It's up to the UK government who gets to use GBP, and nobody else. So until someone from there can confirm it, it's all just speculation.

[CropleyWasGod]

That makes no sense. It's up to the UK government who gets to use GBP, and nobody else. So until someone from there can confirm it, it's all just speculation.

It's not.

Tradable currency, so anyone can use it.

[Colonel_HFC]

That makes no sense. It's up to the UK government who gets to use GBP, and nobody else. So until someone from there can confirm it, it's all just speculation.

And if Scotland decides just to use it anyway then that's surely a bad idea...

[Bristolhibby]

It's not.

Tradable currency, so anyone can use it.

Technically until Independence Day we are all still part of the UK, and both sides committed to work together to negotiate in good faith.

So still our pound, and IMHO will continue to be in future.

J

[Since90+2]

Poll of polls have it as 49% yes / 51% no with between 8% and 14% undecided. This is going to the wire.

[JeMeSouviens]

MORI telephone poll is out now. Headline 51N/49Y, which is a 7% swing to Y since last time. Interestingly, looking at the inc DKs number (which sums to 101, thank you rounding) 49N/47Y/5DK, all the DK decrease from last time has gone to Y.

[Elephant Stone]

I have that cup final feeling.

[Bristolhibby]

I have that cup final feeling.

This, but bigger.

J

[stoneyburn hibs]

I'm a wee bit apprehensive for tomorrow, not for the actual vote as I think it will be Yes. Apprehensive because I'm at my polling station on my own from 7 to midday, then 5 to 10.

I don't expect that there will be many questions thrown at me as most will have made up their minds with 100 yards to walk to the ballot box. Hopefully it is only questions and nothing else thrown at me :greengrin.

[GlesgaeHibby]

I have that cup final feeling.

:agree:

[#FromTheCapital]

I have that cup final feeling.

As long as it's the hibs cup final feeling :wink:

[snooky]

Scottish police chief condemns No campaign for exaggerating aggression. Quelle surprise and hugely irresponsible when you consider some of the more extreme elements of the NO family. :rolleyes:


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/scottish-police-chairman-condemns-no-campaign-exaggerating-aggression?CMP=twt_gu


At last someone who calls out that the king has no clothes on.

By far, the best article I've read in this whole referendum. :top marks :not worth

[Leith Green]

Jesus, if the polls are correct and its such a slim No win , I'm going to be devastated.. To almost have something you really want is far worse than to be nowhere near it, im actually ****ting myself , I just hope that there is a high turnout and that new voter factor can carry us beyond 50 per cent.

One other thing, its been so refreshing to see so many people realising that we are far better off being governed by Scots in Scotland, it gives me hope for our future

It has also been refreshing to see people with completely different views, from different backgrounds having this out in a democratic fashion. Makes me proud to be Scottish

[B'Briggs Hibee]

I might be biaised but looking at the pictures on TV tonight i think YES are going to win and i think it will be by quite a margin ( well 55%-45%). My main reason is by looking at George Sq,Union Street etc it is all YES and most of the time NO is in some sort of room and how hard can it be to fill an average sized room? I think the polls can be taken with a pinch of salt and the new, never before voters are going to get us well over the line .

[snooky]

I might be biaised but looking at the pictures on TV tonight i think YES are going to win and I think it will be by quite a margin ( well 55%-45%). My main reason is by looking at George Sq,Union Street etc it is all YES and most of the time NO is in some sort of room and how hard can it be to fill an average sized room? I think the polls can be taken with a pinch of salt and the new, never before voters are going to get us well over the line .

I think the No campaign is harder to fight for and I get the feeling that most of the No heads are below the parapet making it harder to guess how it will go.
That said, I think Yes can win.


The world's eyes are on us and their opinions of us will be on how they see us on Friday
No matter who wins, let them see Scotland as dignified, respectful, and without spite or gloating.

[DaveF]

I might be biaised but looking at the pictures on TV tonight i think YES are going to win and i think it will be by quite a margin ( well 55%-45%). My main reason is by looking at George Sq,Union Street etc it is all YES and most of the time NO is in some sort of room and how hard can it be to fill an average sized room? I think the polls can be taken with a pinch of salt and the new, never before voters are going to get us well over the line .

Er, as much as I want a YES win, I don't think you can use that as any sort of yardstick :greengrin

[Stranraer]

On both a physical and mental level this referendum has done me the world of good. I have talked to people who I don't have a clue about, got to know them and engaged in some very respectful and lively debates. I'm sure I've lost weight as well with all the walking.

Up at 6am tomorrow for the final delivery of leaflets and I only have one more street to do tonight :greengrin

[B'Briggs Hibee]

Er, as much as I want a YES win, I don't think you can use that as any sort of yardstick :greengrin

What i mean when i say that is it just feels ( and looks slightly diffferent ) to the NO campaign. I still think that out of the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people who have not been contacted in the polls the majority will vote YES. May be blind optimism though however its keeping me going :aok:

[DaveF]

What i mean when i say that is it just feels ( and looks slightly diffferent ) to the NO campaign. I still think that out of the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people who have not been contacted in the polls the majority will vote YES. May be blind optimism though however its keeping me going :aok:

Yeah, understand that and as mentioned above, it's difficult to promote more of the same old, same old.

Here's hoping for a hidden YES vote.

[Swedish hibee]

I shall miss this thread. Huge thank-you to all who posted & kept people (like myself) up to date... Even if I didn't always agree with your points!

I hope Scotland votes yes :aok:

[steakbake]

I think it'll be a yes. I think if it's within 1% , independence will look like devo max plus.

I'm still going with 54:46 yes.

[JimBHibees]

That's about as debatable as your ability to judge intelligence.

Funny man.

[ACLeith]

The world's eyes are on us and their opinions of us will be on how they see us on Friday
No matter who wins, let them see Scotland as dignified, respectful, and without spite or gloating.

Sums it up in a nutshell, Snooky :top marks

Putting the professional politicians aside, the debates I have been involved in at the grass roots have been about honest views shared and discussed with humour and intelligence. One thing is for sure and that is this country will never be the same again, let's make sure the politicians don't let us down, whatever the result.

BTW, I think I heard a NO woman from Aberdeenshire on Reporting Scotland tonight saying she was OK with Scottish Independence, but not this way :dunno:. EH?

[Stranraer]

I'm really upset, in tears in fact and I'm not entirely sure why.

[The Harp Awakes]

Yes tinted specs on here but those speeches tonight by Sturgeon and Salmond were truly inspirational. Brilliant oration. If you haven't seen them I'm sure they will be doing the rounds on social media.:not worth

Having said that I thought Gordon Brown's speech earlier was also very well delivered and probably one of his finest moments.

It's over to the electorate now. Quivering like a leaf:worried:

[Canongatehibs]

Press are utterly desperate for a No vote. It's so obvious it's cringey.

[Canongatehibs]

I shall miss this thread. Huge thank-you to all who posted & kept people (like myself) up to date... Even if I didn't always agree with your points!

I hope Scotland votes yes :aok:

Good man!

[eastterrace]

Press are utterly desperate for a No vote. It's so obvious it's cringey.

especially the daily ranger, so baised towards the no vote , disgrace of a news paper.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm really upset, in tears in fact and I'm not entirely sure why.

It's the real prospect of joy.

I'm an emotional wreck, mate. Excited, hopeful and very proud.

The Yes van came past my house earlier so I went out to give them a thumbs up. I started greeting!

*****, I'm nearly at it again.

We can still rise now and be a nation again.

It's happening tomorrow!

YES.

[The Harp Awakes]

There was a BBC news report earlier which referred to the thousands of yes supporters in George Square, Glasgow. Apparently they were taunted by a small crowd of Union Jack clad no supporters many in Rangers tops and a scuffle broke out. Now there's a surprise.

[Hibrandenburg]

If you're going to attempt to take the piss, man up and do it directly in response to one of my posts.

Even better, debate my point or provide proof that I'm wrong rather than take snidey wee digs.

I did but you weren't man enough to answer me.

[CyberSauzee]

re the C4 programme just finished. Scott Hastings is a very good reason to vote Yes. A pompus stuck up twat who wants the toadying that revolves around Westminster to continue for his benefit.

[The Modfather]

There was a BBC news report earlier which referred to the thousands of yes supporters in George Square, Glasgow. Apparently they were taunted by a small crowd of Union Jack clad no supporters many in Rangers tops and a scuffle broke out. Now there's a surprise.

Can we class that as bullying from the No side and get hysterical about it?

[RyeSloan]

[QUOTE="The Harp Awakes;4171937"]Yes tinted specs on here but those speeches tonight by Sturgeon and Salmond were truly inspirational. Brilliant oration. If you haven't seen them I'm sure they will be doing the rounds on social media.:not worth Having said that I thought Gordon Brown's speech earlier was also very well delivered and probably one of his finest moments. It's over to the electorate now. Quivering like a leaf:worried:[/QUOTE

No were really damaged not having a true orator at the helm...how Brown has any credibility left I have no idea but he at least showed a real passion for his cause that you could see peril voting for. Darlings rather dry demeanour is a stark contrast.

[marinello59]

A simple message from Elaine C Smith on Channel 4 tonight said it all for me. By voting Yes we can make Scotland a better place. Giving people a greater say in their every day lives can only lead to a better Scotland. Voting Yes tomorrow and shifting power from Westminster to Holyrood will be great start.
Exciting, isn't it?

[Stranraer]

A simple message from Elaine C Smith on Channel 4 tonight said it all for me. By voting Yes we can make Scotland a better place. Giving people a greater say in their every day lives can only lead to a better Scotland. Voting Yes tomorrow and shifting power from Westminster to Holyrood will be great start.
Exciting, isn't it?

Very! Honestly the AV referendum seems so boring looking back compared to this but that's understandable.

Hoping for a shock in my area - a traditionally Conservative one, not sure if I'll sleep tonight.

[Stranraer]

It's the real prospect of joy.

I'm an emotional wreck, mate. Excited, hopeful and very proud.

The Yes van came past my house earlier so I went out to give them a thumbs up. I started greeting!

*****, I'm nearly at it again.

We can still rise now and be a nation again.

It's happening tomorrow!

YES.

Glad I'm not the only one my friend, I turned off Morrissey for once and stuck on Highland Cathedral from the laptop via HDMI to the TV and I couldn't help myself from crying again, such a touching song, regardless of ones opinion on the vote.

[The Harp Awakes]

Can we class that as bullying from the No side and get hysterical about it?

Don't think so. According to Jim Murphy it's only the Yes supporters that bully folk. I must have blinked and missed the 15000 no supporters in Edinburgh on Saturday holding up KKK and no popery banners and singing their catchy wee ditties.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Whatever way folk vote today this country is never going to be the same again.

If its Yes I'll probably greet like a big bairn because something I have wanted all my life will be about to come true.

If its No I'll probably just greet like a big bairn.

Whatever happens, Yes or No, we are all Scots .... every damn one of us ..... We either come together to do our best for an independent Scotland, or we come together to fight Scotland's corner in the backlash to come if we stay in the UK ...... and there will be one.

Scotland Forever !!!

[The_Exile]

Just saw a Shetland fisherman on BBC news, ardent No voter, say he's been doing a lot of hard thinking and has decided to vote yes. His mate, a yes voter, nearly broke down into tears. SCENES!!

[SteveHFC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2tEXdm9eQM#t=25 :faf:


If it is a yes vote i would love to see her reaction :aok:

[Booker5time]

Andy MurrayVerified account ‏@andy_murray (https://twitter.com/andy_murray) Huge day for Scotland today! no campaign negativity last few days totally swayed my view on it. excited to see the outcome. lets do this!

News just in, our Andy just outed himself as yes supporter, Balls of steel this Lad.:thumbsup::top marks

[Iain G]

Whatever way folk vote today this country is never going to be the same again.

If its Yes I'll probably greet like a big bairn because something I have wanted all my life will be about to come true.

If its No I'll probably just greet like a big bairn.

Whatever happens, Yes or No, we are all Scots .... every damn one of us ..... We either come together to do our best for an independent Scotland, or we come together to fight Scotland's corner in the backlash to come if we stay in the UK ...... and there will be one.

Scotland Forever !!!

Its the fallout after the vote, if it is as close as expected, that worries me.

[Lewis77]

Its the fallout after the vote, if it is as close as expected, that worries me.

We'll be fine what ever the vote is. I support Independence. I came to this conclusion the same way as I became an atheist. I began to ask questions of the status quo and seek truths. It truly makes no sense for a healthy country with fertile land and sea, a vibrant, creative & industrious people, stunning scenery (not to mention the oil) not to be Independent.

Scotland will be better off as an Independent country. The fact is Westminster will be worse off. It's my opinion that in the long run Scottish Independence will be best for all, as it possibly will wake the English up the the vile, self-serving elite who control their place in this world. We can be an inspiration!

Carpe Diem people. Let's be brave and jump. Let's not Kowtow to threats. I'm off to vote now. With love & peace to all.

[Judas Iscariot]

If anyone is still undecided, don't let fear stand in the way of something that is a once in a lifetime opportunity!

YES!

[SanFranHibs]

'We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilisation' - Voltaire, French philosophe.

Different times, different circumstances and for different reasons but today much of the world will again be looking to Scotland. Our decision today will determine how we are viewed and how we have responded to the chance of self determination, the chance to be a nation that has the courage to decide for itself.

As I read in the Guardian this week, 'to those within the establishment circle, politics still begins and ends in Westminster. The opinions of no one beyond the gilded thousand with whom they associate is worthy of notice.'

Or confusing Self-Determination with Nationalism with utter contempt describing us thus,

“What spoilt, selfish, childlike fools those Scots are ... They simply don’t have a clue how lucky they are,” sneered Melanie Reid in the Times.

In the Spectator, Simon Heffer maintains that: “addicted to welfare ... Scots embraced the something for nothing society”, objecting to the poll tax “because many of them felt that paying taxes ought to be the responsibility of someone else”.


"That so many Scots, lambasted from all quarters as fools, frauds and ingrates, have refused to be bullied is itself a political triumph. If they vote for independence, they will do so in defiance not only of the Westminster consensus but also of its enforcers: the detached, complacent people who claim to speak on their behalf." (George Monbiot)

I pray we turn this political truimph into a National triumph of Hope.

:saltireflag

[Hibrandenburg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2tEXdm9eQM#t=25 :faf:

I
If it is a yes vote i would love to see her reaction :aok:

Campaigning against England

:faf:

[Peevemor]

A tall tree
Turn and face the west
O we're running with the wind
A high clifftop
We're waiting with the rest
For this journey to begin

And O how we laugh
But maybe we should crawl
And ask to be excused
We shout loudly
Have answers to it all
O but we have been refused ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJer7-eAy3o#t=44

There's only one way to fix it ...

[Bristolhibby]

If it helps anyone who is undecided or wavering, here's my Facebook Status today.

Brothers and Sisters in Scotland, today is the day.

For the first time in 307 years, the power to control your country's future is in your hands. Between 7 and 10 tonight that power is yours. The power to make decisions that will benefit all the people in Scotland, decisions made by the people, for the people.

It is this power that caused the three wise men of Westminster to race North. They did this out of fear. Fear that you the people might want to keep this power for yourselves and not give it back to them tonight. They came with fear, hoping you would be cowed into giving your power back. As Nelson Mandela said "May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears".

Today vote with hope, vote to retain your power that they covet.
Let's do this!

Vote Yes!

[Monopolyguy]

This is maybe a bit off topic, but I've been seeing quite a few status updates from people on Facebook saying they are 'Fed up with this whole referundum thing' and 'Can't wait for things to go back to normal' etc.

I honestly don't get people like this. This is the most important time for Scotland in 300 years, and people still just want to bury there heads in the sand and hope it all goes away, no wonder the world is a ****ing mess when some folks are so distracted by ***** TV shows and music and it hurts their brains when politics is on the agenda. Maybe they aren't getting enough attention on their selfies and baby pictures that they are uploading every 10 minutes?

[Keith_M]

Would it be OK just to send the Poll results from here and save them the bother of counting the votes?



:greengrin

[Keith_M]

This is maybe a bit off topic, but I've been seeing quite a few status updates from people on Facebook saying they are 'Fed up with this whole referundum thing' and 'Can't wait for things to go back to normal' etc.

I honestly don't get people like this. This is the most important time for Scotland in 300 years, and people still just want to bury there heads in the sand and hope it all goes away, no wonder the world is a ****ing mess when some folks are so distracted by ***** TV shows and music and it hurts their brains when politics is on the agenda. Maybe they aren't getting enough attention on their selfies and baby pictures that they are uploading every 10 minutes?


Well, when it starts to interrupt their enjoyment of the X Factor or Judy Murray Dancing On Ice, you can see why they have a problem with it.


Actually, didn't Beefster express a similar sentiment :wink:

[Phil D. Rolls]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2tEXdm9eQM#t=25 :faf:


If it is a yes vote i would love to see her reaction :aok:

"Campaigning against England"? Did she really say that?

[Iain G]

This is maybe a bit off topic, but I've been seeing quite a few status updates from people on Facebook saying they are 'Fed up with this whole referundum thing' and 'Can't wait for things to go back to normal' etc.

I honestly don't get people like this. This is the most important time for Scotland in 300 years, and people still just want to bury there heads in the sand and hope it all goes away, no wonder the world is a ****ing mess when some folks are so distracted by ***** TV shows and music and it hurts their brains when politics is on the agenda. Maybe they aren't getting enough attention on their selfies and baby pictures that they are uploading every 10 minutes?

To some folks none of it does matter. They have no real interest in politics and are happy living their live in the way they live it as long as it had no real negative impact on it. Its no real difference to people who don't like football, or travel, or whatever I don't think. The thing about a democracy is that people can happily ignore the whole bloody political drama around elections, referenda/ums if they want to, its their choice.

And while its an important time in Scotland, perhaps WW1 or WW2 could be classed as more important for Scotland? Just saying likes ;)

[stoneyburn hibs]

I'm now on a five hour break from outside my polling station, imo it's the pensioners that could swing this to no.

[Gatecrasher]

I'm now on a five hour break from outside my polling station, imo it's the pensioners that could swing this to no.

Mon the Auld yins :agree:

[stoneyburn hibs]

Mon the Auld yins :agree:

What did surprise me this morning was that the vast majority of all voters do give you an indication of what they are voting.

[Gatecrasher]

What did surprise me this morning was that the vast majority of all voters do give you an indication of what they are voting.

Yeah that is a bit surprising, many people see voting as a private thing.

[LancashireHibby]

Yeah that is a bit surprising, many people see voting as a private thing.
I'm not sure that's necessarily the case these days, it's all part of the campaigning IMO.

FWIW when watching yesterday's coverage, it did seem a much older 'crowd' at the No event than Yes, but maybe that's just clever camera positioning.

Finding it all pretty fascinating viewing from here, and I must admit I'm (still) pretty torn on which way I want it to go.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not sure that's necessarily the case these days, it's all part of the campaigning IMO.

FWIW when watching yesterday's coverage, it did seem a much older 'crowd' at the No event than Yes, but maybe that's just clever camera positioning.

Finding it all pretty fascinating viewing from here, and I must admit I'm (still) pretty torn on which way I want it to go.

It's not. The older you go, the more the No vote increases. In polls, over 65s usually come out 2 to 1 or more for No. I think it's the last hurrah of WW2-and-aftermath Britishness. There's nothing like an external enemy to foster shared identity.

[The_Exile]

It's not. The older you go, the more the No vote increases. In polls, over 65s usually come out 2 to 1 or more for No. I think it's the last hurrah of WW2-and-aftermath Britishness. There's nothing like an external enemy to foster shared identity.

Agreed, and that's why the polls are actually quite encouraging, if I understand correctly you have to be over 18 to take part in a poll, therefore it's missing out a huge section of the electorate in 16 and 17 year olds, most of whom seem to be Yes voters. If it's that close in the polls without taking them into account.................

[LancashireHibby]

It's not. The older you go, the more the No vote increases. In polls, over 65s usually come out 2 to 1 or more for No. I think it's the last hurrah of WW2-and-aftermath Britishness. There's nothing like an external enemy to foster shared identity.
That was the impression I was getting, to be honest. As I said, I'm pretty torn on it anyway - from a purely selfish point of view I'm leaning towards hoping from a No, but that's purely because I don't know how it would affect my Hibs visits, if at all! Just stuck my last £9.76 in my SkyBet account on Yes at 4/1 so I'm sorted either way :wink:

[MyJo]

It's not. The older you go, the more the No vote increases. In polls, over 65s usually come out 2 to 1 or more for No. I think it's the last hurrah of WW2-and-aftermath Britishness. There's nothing like an external enemy to foster shared identity.

The older generation are also more likely to be swayed by scaremongering headlines about losing your pension and your shopping being more expensive as they probably won't use the internet and social media where these myths have been debunked nor will the bbc or papers give them a subjective point of view

[s.a.m]

Agreed, and that's why the polls are actually quite encouraging, if I understand correctly you have to be over 18 to take part in a poll, therefore it's missing out a huge section of the electorate in 16 and 17 year olds, most of whom seem to be Yes voters. If it's that close in the polls without taking them into account.................

Not the case - 16-23 year olds were being polled as an age category, and my 16 year old daughter was phone
polled by Ipsos Mori. Don't know if there was anyone polling 16 / 17 year olds as a specific group, though.

[The_Exile]

Not the case - 16-23 year olds were being polled as an age category, and my 16 year old daughter was phone
polled by Ipsos Mori. Don't know if there was anyone polling 16 / 17 year olds as a specific group, though.

Really? Perhaps it was just some specific polls that you had to be over 18 then, defintely read something about the polls not asking 16/17 year olds.

[Just Alf]

The older generation are also more likely to be swayed by scaremongering headlines about losing your pension and your shopping being more expensive as they probably won't use the internet and social media where these myths have been debunked nor will the bbc or papers give them a subjective point of view

Got to say, both my in-laws fall exactly into this category. They've voted no because Tesco have said their prices will go up and that our family down South will become foreign. They also insist we can't afford to leave as the oil will run out in 5 to 10 years ( a door stepper told them).

They share an iPad and their sole source of online news is the BBC news website, they don't know how to search etc.

I have tried to explain stuff but once their mind is set on something that's it no matter what the evidence is.

Oh well....

[JeMeSouviens]

Really? Perhaps it was just some specific polls that you had to be over 18 then, defintely read something about the polls not asking 16/17 year olds.

There's nothing illegal about asking them and most polls have included them. I think some of the early ones didn't, presumably because they didn't have any 16/17 year olds on their panels to ask. All the pollsters have had difficulty getting enough under 25s to respond, sometimes they are being upweighted x 2.

[Stranraer]

Just been off to see my Polish tattooist who has been told my No campaigners that in the event of a YES vote she and other poles would have to leave the country.

Sickening.

[The_Exile]

Just read on twitter that a No campaigner went to vote and just couldn't bring themselves to do it so voted Yes!!! It's happening, the penny is dropping at the ballot box.

[s.a.m]

There's nothing illegal about asking them and most polls have included them. I think some of the early ones didn't, presumably because they didn't have any 16/17 year olds on their panels to ask. All the pollsters have had difficulty getting enough under 25s to respond, sometimes they are being upweighted x 2.

In our case, they phoned me, then asked if there were any 16-23 yr olds resident at the address. When I said 'yes', they asked to speak to her instead.

[Moulin Yarns]

Agreed, and that's why the polls are actually quite encouraging, if I understand correctly you have to be over 18 to take part in a poll, therefore it's missing out a huge section of the electorate in 16 and 17 year olds, most of whom seem to be Yes voters. If it's that close in the polls without taking them into account.................

That was the main reason for the YOUGOV poll giving YES a lead for the first time. Up to that poll they hadn't polled under 18s (as well as including ineligible voters!) That poll swung so much because they were using the correct demographics for the first time.

[Since90+2]

Can anyone confirm if polls are done on landline numbers only? If so I am even more confident it will be a yes.

[Peevemor]

I still think that if Yes wins the day, it's because their voters are more up for it. For those who aren't either for or sure about voting Yes, there's not the same motiviation to go and vote for the status quo.

This won't be accurately reflected in opinion polls IMO.

[Gus]

Just read on twitter that a No campaigner went to vote and just couldn't bring themselves to do it so voted Yes!!! It's happening, the penny is dropping at the ballot box.

All hail Twitter and all that posts on there. This person was probably always voting yes but fancied getting hero worshipped for saying on social media they had changed sides.

[Bristolhibby]

Just been off to see my Polish tattooist who has been told my No campaigners that in the event of a YES vote she and other poles would have to leave the country.

Sickening.

And how did they vote?

J

[Judas Iscariot]

Just been off to see my Polish tattooist who has been told my No campaigners that in the event of a YES vote she and other poles would have to leave the country.

Sickening.

Don't believe that for one second...

The BT campaign is based on hard facts and truths... not scaremongering and lies...

:cool2:

[GlesgaeHibby]

One of my colleagues has been a no for months now. He got to the ballot booth this morning and properly read the question: "Should Scotland be in an independent country?"

He thought, yes of course and ticked the yes box :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[speedy_gonzales]

The older generation are also more likely to be swayed by scaremongering headlines about losing your pension and your shopping being more expensive as they probably won't use the internet and social media where these myths have been debunked nor will the bbc or papers give them a8 subjective point of view
Social Media,,,,,I could see it far enough. Whilst there has been plenty of thought provoking debate, there's also been plenty of mind numbing, inane, emotionally charged inaccurate posts aimed at galvanising a support for either the YES or NO camp.
The latest I seen from YES supporters was the whole chained unicorn on our passports/coat of arms. Apparently it's so us Scots know 'our place', so we can metaphorically break the chains of oppression,,,, what utter tosh, the unicorn represents power and purity, but needs to be chained because it is a dangerous untamed beast. King James VI of Scotland used this as his Royal Coat of arms from 1567 to 1603, 1603 was the union of the Crowns, 100 years before the Act of Union (1707). 100 years before the oppression,,,,but of course the FaceBook generation just copy and paste without the need to check the facts.

[BOB MARLEYS DUG]

Just voted. Bring it on :aok:

[Glorious St Pat]

The older generation are also more likely to be swayed by scaremongering headlines about losing your pension and your shopping being more expensive as they probably won't use the internet and social media where these myths have been debunked nor will the bbc or papers give them a subjective point of view

Selective manufactured consent reporting from a corporate media.

Just vote with pride and a tear in my eye. Yes. Canvassers said the exit polls were going well. Feel like an expecting father passing the corridor!

[JeMeSouviens]

Social Media,,,,,I could see it far enough. Whilst there has been plenty of thought provoking debate, there's also been plenty of mind numbing, inane, emotionally charged inaccurate posts aimed at galvanising a support for either the YES or NO camp.
The latest I seen from YES supporters was the whole chained unicorn on our passports/coat of arms. Apparently it's so us Scots know 'our place', so we can metaphorically break the chains of oppression,,,, what utter tosh, the unicorn represents power and purity, but needs to be chained because it is a dangerous untamed beast. King James VI of Scotland used this as his Royal Coat of arms from 1567 to 1603, 1603 was the union of the Crowns, 100 years before the Act of Union (1707). 100 years before the oppression,,,,but of course the FaceBook generation just copy and paste without the need to check the facts.

Bit like you and the use of commas then? :wink:

[stoneyburn hibs]

Can anyone confirm if polls are done on landline numbers only? If so I am even more confident it will be a yes.

As far as I'm aware it is only landline numbers.

[Glorious St Pat]

Great piece by Ian Bell yesterday of The Herald supporting Yes and also the back Sports page criticising Scotland's own "Bullingdon Club" of privately educated ex Scottish internationals coming out for No.

Still think that if the working class come out in huge numbers then this will be enough to grant a Yes result.

[The_Exile]

All hail Twitter and all that posts on there. This person was probably always voting yes but fancied getting hero worshipped for saying on social media they had changed sides.

Their previous tweets had been full of No stuff so I think this was genuine.

[Glorious St Pat]

As far as I'm aware it is only landline numbers.

Both landline and online polls. The big question is - are they accurate and are they representative of society. I have my doubts.

[marinello59]

The older generation are also more likely to be swayed by scaremongering headlines about losing your pension and your shopping being more expensive as they probably won't use the internet and social media where these myths have been debunked nor will the bbc or papers give them a subjective point of view

That is quite simply ageist tosh. They have a lifetime of experience of elections, much of it before the internet age. Plenty of literature has been handed out, we've had doorstep canvassers, meetings, events, discussions with friends and family and there has been a lot of decent stuff in the media. In other words good old fashioned electioneering. Suggesting advanced years renders a healthy person less capable of reaching an informed decision, (based on the arguments and personal values) is wrong, wrong, wrong.

[bawheid]

It's almost impossible to extrapolate a sample size of 1,000 up to a voting population of 4.2m and get an accurate result.

The polls are wrong. :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

That is quite simply ageist tosh. They have a lifetime of experience of elections, much of it before the internet age. Plenty of literature has been handed out, we've had doorstep canvassers, meetings, events, discussions with friends and family and there has been a lot of decent stuff in the media. In other words good old fashioned electioneering. Suggesting advanced years renders a healthy person less capable of reaching an informed decision, (based on the arguments and personal values) is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Got to agree with that.

There has been many an argument within my family, and the sides are normally drawn on generation lines. We all have different priorities in life, and in our politics, and that sometimes (but not always) reflects one's time of life. To say that older people are more prone to scaremongering is quite insulting to those who still have the capability (and, in truth, more time than most of us) to reach an informed decision.

I tried telling my old man that I'd give him a lift to the polling station tomorrow, but the reactionary auld get wouldn't bite. :greengrin

[Gus]

At my work, team of 14 all of them and their partners voting no, we have a team of 15 so someone will be smug 2moro morning or very quiet.

[CyberSauzee]

Great piece by Ian Bell yesterday of The Herald supporting Yes and also the back Sports page criticising Scotland's own "Bullingdon Club" of privately educated ex Scottish internationals coming out for No.

Still think that if the working class come out in huge numbers then this will be enough to grant a Yes result.


Thanks for highlighting, here it is:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/scottish-rugbys-own-bullingdon-club-have-discovered-how-to-score-an-own-goal.25347255

Scott Hastings last night was exactly as this article describes and more. Standing up and lecturing people on how he is proud to be Scottish and a British & Irish Lion. And, so what?

Lecturing to the point of anger that it seemed like he was admonishing the crowd for even contemplating the thought of exercising their democratic right to vote for their futures.

You could just see him seething, thinking to himself: "How dare they think like that, these ungrateful Scottish serfs. Don't they know their place?"

This article perfectly summarises the Scottish haves who are unwilling to take a risk for Scotland, preferring to put down Scottish Nationalism, while at the same time perfectly happy to keep flying the flag for British Nationalism (or should that be imperialism for a lot of them).

[JimBHibees]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/former-merseyside-council-leader-marie-7795001

Oh dear.

[marinello59]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/former-merseyside-council-leader-marie-7795001

Oh dear.

Couldn't they just have told her to calm down? :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Couldn't they just have told her to calm down? :greengrin

Obviously not loudly enough. :greengrin

[CyberSauzee]

Apologies if posted elsewhere but the Laddies political market maker writes a good blog:

http://politicalbookie.wordpress.com/

He's expecting North Lanarkshire to set the tone early on:



North Lanarkshire on the other hand could set the tone early on. This is one of the most populous regions and at the moment, we can’t split YES and NO:

If NO wins here, then I’d be fairly certain that Scotland is staying in the UK. A YES win with over 53% or so would indicate that the nationalists are on course to go very close.

[speedy_gonzales]

Bit like you and the use of commas then? :wink:
Oh aye,,,, I love a comma me,,,, :wink:

[CB_NO3]

Evening News reporting that Muirhouse beat its normal turnout of voters by 9.30am this morning. If thats whats happening around all the working class areas in Scotland then the Yes team are in for a great night.

[NAE NOOKIE]

That is quite simply ageist tosh. They have a lifetime of experience of elections, much of it before the internet age. Plenty of literature has been handed out, we've had doorstep canvassers, meetings, events, discussions with friends and family and there has been a lot of decent stuff in the media. In other words good old fashioned electioneering. Suggesting advanced years renders a healthy person less capable of reaching an informed decision, (based on the arguments and personal values) is wrong, wrong, wrong.

In a sort of "vote yes and ye are all doomed" sort of way.

[Hibrandenburg]

Thanks for highlighting, here it is:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/scottish-rugbys-own-bullingdon-club-have-discovered-how-to-score-an-own-goal.25347255

Scott Hastings last night was exactly as this article describes and more. Standing up and lecturing people on how he is proud to be Scottish and a British & Irish Lion. And, so what?

Lecturing to the point of anger that it seemed like he was admonishing the crowd for even contemplating the thought of exercising their democratic right to vote for their futures.

You could just see him seething, thinking to himself: "How dare they think like that, these ungrateful Scottish serfs. Don't they know their place?"

This article perfectly summarises the Scottish haves who are unwilling to take a risk for Scotland, preferring to put down Scottish Nationalism, while at the same time perfectly happy to keep flying the flag for British Nationalism (or should that be imperialism for a lot of them).

He's worried about having to kiss his knighthood cheerio!

[ACLeith]

The older generation are also more likely to be swayed by scaremongering headlines about losing your pension and your shopping being more expensive as they probably won't use the internet and social media where these myths have been debunked nor will the bbc or papers give them a subjective point of view

What's your definition of the "Older Generation"?

[Sir David Gray]

Left it until now to cast my vote on this thread as I felt it was only right to vote on here after I had actually voted.

My vote went to no.

[Mon Dieu4]

Left it until now to cast my vote on this thread as I felt it was only right to vote on here after I had actually voted.

My vote went to no.

Really thought you would be a definite yes :cb

[Pretty Boy]

Seems like a late push by the Nos.

Had a leaflet through my door about 2 minutes ago and a couple of guys further up the road leafleting for no as well.

Wonder if they think they are in trouble?

[CRAZYHIBBY]

I reckon it will be a no

[MSK]

Seems like a late push by the Nos.

Had a leaflet through my door about 2 minutes ago and a couple of guys further up the road leafleting for no as well.

Wonder if they think they are in trouble?Likewise ..bit late though ..I voted hours ago ...:greengrin

[MyJo]

What's your definition of the "Older Generation"?

I was talking about people in their 70s and older and I wasn't meaning that they were incapable of making an informed choice, just that people of that age may not have access to other sources of information outwith the better together favouring media outlets and supposedly impartial bbc.

[Mon Dieu4]

Seems like a late push by the Nos.

Had a leaflet through my door about 2 minutes ago and a couple of guys further up the road leafleting for no as well.

Wonder if they think they are in trouble?

When I got in from work the doorbell went, jumped out the shower to answer it and it was the BT lot, don't think they liked my dishevelled response

[CropleyWasGod]

I was talking about people in their 70s and older and I wasn't meaning that they were incapable of making an informed choice, just that people of that age may not have access to other sources of information outwith the better together favouring media outlets and supposedly impartial bbc.

Silver surfers?

My mother's 80, and online more than I am. :greengrin

[MyJo]

Silver surfers?

My mother's 80, and online more than I am. :greengrin

Lol, I'm generalising based on my experience of dealing what people of that age. I know not everyone is like that

[ACLeith]

I was talking about people in their 70s and older and I wasn't meaning that they were incapable of making an informed choice, just that people of that age may not have access to other sources of information outwith the better together favouring media outlets and supposedly impartial bbc.

Phew! I just get in under the radar then - am I still "middle aged" ? :aok:

Even though I know of someone in their 90s who is a definite YES, I take your point as a generalisation.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Evening News reporting that Muirhouse beat its normal turnout of voters by 9.30am this morning. If thats whats happening around all the working class areas in Scotland then the Yes team are in for a great night.

Says it all. Very busy at 7 am.

[Sir David Gray]

Really thought you would be a definite yes :cb

I'm guessing you're being sarcastic?

[Future17]

Sitting at average 80% by 8pm. Looking good for 90%+.

[hibs4thecup1988]

Sitting at average 80% by 8pm. Looking good for 90%+.

Says who?

Not that I disbelieve you by the way...

[degenerated]

Says who?

Not that I disbelieve you by the way...
90% turnout in Dundee according to sky.

[Sylar]

Came across this on Twitter and found it mildly amusing:

"What will happen in Scotland when all of the oil runs out? Ask England - theirs runs tomorrow #VoteYesScotland" :greengrin

[Sylar]

90% turnout in Dundee according to sky.

Good for the Yes campaign :agree:

[Sprouleflyer]

90% turnout in Dundee according to sky.

Someone on twitter saying that a polling station in the Falkirk area has already closed!

reason being 100% of the registered voters, voted.

[CropleyWasGod]

Someone on twitter saying that a polling station in the Falkirk area has already closed!

reason being 100% of the registered voters, voted.

It's bulldust, apparently.

They're not allowed to do it, and Falkirk DC had to issue a denial.

[CropleyWasGod]

Also on Twitter:-

Hearing amazing story: 6 Yes voters from broken down train in Dunkeld sharing taxi, hooning up A9 to vote before polls close

Thing is, they're split 3:3!!:rolleyes:

[Sprouleflyer]

Also on Twitter:-

Hearing amazing story: 6 Yes voters from broken down train in Dunkeld sharing taxi, hooning up A9 to vote before polls close

Thing is, they're split 3:3!!:rolleyes:

:greengrin

Don't you just love twitter!!!

[Pretty Boy]

What time can we expect 1st exit poll indications? Just after 10?

[CropleyWasGod]

What time can we expect 1st exit poll indications? Just after 10?

Don't think there are any exit polls tonight, sadly.

[Pretty Boy]

Don't think there are any exit polls tonight, sadly.

Pity.

I was asked who I voted for by YouGov about 3ish. Done it all online. 5th time I've been polled by them but I do surveys for them all year.

[the_ginger_hibee]

No exit polls.

First areas expected around 0200...

http://www.independencerally.com/ - will be updated live with results.

[CropleyWasGod]

Pity.

I was asked who I voted for by YouGov about 3ish. Done it all online. 5th time I've been polled by them but I do surveys for them all year.

According to Armando Iannucci:-

No exit poll but it'll be obvious if the TV announcer says 'And now the season finale of Simon Schama's 'A History of Britain.'

:greengrin

[snooky]

Also on Twitter:-

Hearing amazing story: 6 Yes voters from broken down train in Dunkeld sharing taxi, hooning up A9 to vote before polls close

Thing is, they're split 3:3!!:rolleyes:

Shirley they're 3 Yes & 3 No? i.e "6 voters" Or am I not getting something :confused:

[Peevemor]

Don't think there are any exit polls tonight, sadly.

I could be wrong but I think it's normally the TV companies who commission exit polls to give them something to discuss before the results are announced. I'm pretty sure however that the yes/no camps will have volunteers carrying out polls.

Whether they'll be released and how accurate they'll be I couldn't tell you.

[Since90+2]

Pity.

I was asked who I voted for by YouGov about 3ish. Done it all online. 5th time I've been polled by them but I do surveys for them all year.

There will be no exit polls published as it would be illegal for the polling companies to do so (possibly why the one on here was removed?). The earliest we will get indications is around 2am when the first areas announce.

[CropleyWasGod]

Shirley they're 3 Yes & 3 No? i.e "6 voters" Or am I not getting something :confused:

It's Twitter... go figure. :greengrin

Actually, scratch the 3+3 bit. It is 6 Yes.


Sounds like they all made it though :top marks

Made it with 5 mins to spare !! Thanks for all your encouragement and support. 2.5 hrs ago I was stranded 145 miles away

[CropleyWasGod]

There will be no exit polls published as it would be illegal for the polling companies to do so (possibly why the one on here was removed?). The earliest we will get indications is around 2am when the first areas announce.

Not sure that it's illegal. Been done many times before, no?

Think it's maybe that no-one wanted to pay for it.

[SanFranHibs]

There will be no exit polls published as it would be illegal for the polling companies to do so (possibly why the one on here was removed?). The earliest we will get indications is around 2am when the first areas announce.

So they can't give details of exot polls once the polling stations are closed?

Damn!!!

[Sergey]

I could be wrong but I think it's normally the TV companies who commission exit polls to give them something to discuss before the results are announced. I'm pretty sure however that the yes/no camps will have volunteers carrying out polls.

Whether they'll be released and how accurate they'll be I couldn't tell you.


There will be no exit polls published as it would be illegal for the polling companies to do so. The earliest we will get indications is around 2am when the first areas announce.

I caught a piece on Radio 4 this afternoon that mentioned that as this is a referendum, the rules for pollsters are different to the normal run-of-the-mill election rules.

I wasn't really paying much attention as I was driving at the time (and on the phone).

[CropleyWasGod]

I caught a piece on Radio 4 this afternoon that mentioned that as this is a referendum, the rules for pollsters are different to the normal run-of-the-mill election rules.

I wasn't really paying much attention as I was driving at the time (and on the phone).

I can remember (grumpy old man voice) the exit poll in the 79 referendum. Was on News at Ten.

I was in ma bed by the time the last gong sounded. :rolleyes: