Scottish Independence

[Kato]

And it’s lucky Ireland doesn’t have the attitude you want for Scotland. They didn’t run direct shipping to Europe before brexit and now they do. That’s how you fix problems.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe logistics of moving goods around Europe isn't that hard if the will to trade is there. A market for Scotland in the EU isn't the same as the markets promised by Brexit.

The EU is right there on our doorstep and most businesses want to trade and expand. The post Brexit markets promised were "Global Britain", and guff like "re-opening the British Empire", which are fictional and don't really exist, as has been shown. There is no market available for the UK's exports to grow toward.



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[cabbageandribs1875]

this is what Scottish unionists voted for, but but the ferries
https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/331962681_142235718467303_7184411957251885677_n.jp g?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=2e6lQjNN3w0AX_JfN_3&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfAz69tnkM0np3uUHpVGQpzSdLZAIzA5LFi_HMgI1LCG 7Q&oe=640A293F

[archie]

this is what Scottish unionists voted for, but but the ferries
https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/331962681_142235718467303_7184411957251885677_n.jp g?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=2e6lQjNN3w0AX_JfN_3&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfAz69tnkM0np3uUHpVGQpzSdLZAIzA5LFi_HMgI1LCG 7Q&oe=640A293F

Care to say why this wouldn't have happened in an indepndent Scotland?

[Just Alf]

Care to say why this wouldn't have happened in an indepndent Scotland?It's to do with the way the UK government has set up the interconnection charges.. I suspect the Scottish government would use a different model.

This is from the Scotsman, a famously non indy supporting publication

"Scotland*faces energy transmission charges of £7.36 per mega watt hour - 16 times the*European*average, according to analysis from the Renewable Infrastructure Development Group.

In comparison,*England*faces a charge of £4.70 whilst countries such as Germany and the Netherlands face no charge.

A 1GW offshore windfarm off the Scottish coast will pay £38m a year compared to a 1GW windfarm in the south east of England which will pay £7m a year."

It goes on to say how these charges are applied to end users

[Ozyhibby]

It's to do with the way the UK government has set up the interconnection charges.. I suspect the Scottish government would use a different model.

This is from the Scotsman, a famously non indy supporting publication

"Scotland*faces energy transmission charges of £7.36 per mega watt hour - 16 times the*European*average, according to analysis from the Renewable Infrastructure Development Group.

In comparison,*England*faces a charge of £4.70 whilst countries such as Germany and the Netherlands face no charge.

A 1GW offshore windfarm off the Scottish coast will pay £38m a year compared to a 1GW windfarm in the south east of England which will pay £7m a year."

It goes on to say how these charges are applied to end users

Seems fair.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Apart from we sold away our renewable profits to the energy companies at a pittance. I've said it before but we've done the same as we dis with the oil and gave away the profits to whats rightfully ours. If only they had talked to the common weal when they were asking, Labour in Wales are though and good luck to them

[archie]

It's to do with the way the UK government has set up the interconnection charges.. I suspect the Scottish government would use a different model.

This is from the Scotsman, a famously non indy supporting publication

"Scotland*faces energy transmission charges of £7.36 per mega watt hour - 16 times the*European*average, according to analysis from the Renewable Infrastructure Development Group.

In comparison,*England*faces a charge of £4.70 whilst countries such as Germany and the Netherlands face no charge.

A 1GW offshore windfarm off the Scottish coast will pay £38m a year compared to a 1GW windfarm in the south east of England which will pay £7m a year."

It goes on to say how these charges are applied to end usersExcept the Scottish Government said in the independence White Paper that they wished to be part of the GB energy market. Why do you think that was? Also Energy Action Scotland is a fuel poverty charity. And a very good job they do. They argue in the report that :

'Analysts say one of the reasons for the energy bill gap is the condition of the housing stock, colder and wetter weather, and the limited availability of gas in rural Scotland meaning many only heat their homes with oil or electricity which is more expensive. '

These are fundamental stuctural issues at play, only some of which relates to the energy market. The numbers you cite are material, but don't have the impact you are implying. I'll dig out the data, but Scotland does not pay the highest bills in GB.

[archie]

BBC article. I'll dig out the source tomorrow.https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63205245

[greenlex]

Except the Scottish Government said in the independence White Paper that they wished to be part of the GB energy market. Why do you think that was? Also Energy Action Scotland is a fuel poverty charity. And a very good job they do. They argue in the report that :

'Analysts say one of the reasons for the energy bill gap is the condition of the housing stock, colder and wetter weather, and the limited availability of gas in rural Scotland meaning many only heat their homes with oil or electricity which is more expensive. '

These are fundamental stuctural issues at play, only some of which relates to the energy market. The numbers you cite are material, but don't have the impact you are implying. I'll dig out the data, but Scotland does not pay the highest bills in GB.
My guess on the being part of the GB energy market would be as a current and ramped up future supplier of green energy if which could/will be plentiful it would make perfect sense to be part of that market.

[archie]

My guess on the being part of the GB energy market would be as a current and ramped up future supplier of green energy if which could/will be plentiful it would make perfect sense to be part of that market.

I think you've nailed it. There are also complex subsidy arrangements for renewable energy . One of those is s guaranteed price for production. These are essential for the development of renewable infrastructure and supply. If we weren't part of that GB market then it might be harder to sell renewable electricity production.

[archie]

I think you've nailed it. There are also complex subsidy arrangements for renewable energy . One of those is s guaranteed price for production. These are essential for the development of renewable infrastructure and supply. If we weren't part of that GB market then it might be harder to sell renewable electricity production.
Here's the official stats https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/energy-price-guarantee-regional-rates/energy-price-guarantee-regional-rates

[Ozyhibby]

Last few weeks are a good example of why Scotland would be better off independent. With all the problems we face in Scotland right now, I haven’t heard a single person complain about small boats? The subject just doesn’t come up. There are lots of really important issues that could be being dealt with but all the UK govt care about is these boats.
Everything else is just put to one side.


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[Kato]

Last few weeks are a good example of why Scotland would be better off independent. With all the problems we face in Scotland right now, I haven’t heard a single person complain about small boats? The subject just doesn’t come up. There are lots of really important issues that could be being dealt with but all the UK govt care about is these boats.
Everything else is just put to one side.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThey did say they'd fight the next election by concentrating on culture wars. Actually managing the country or creating policies are always going to be poor second, given lip-service then not implemented.

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[Smartie]

Last few weeks are a good example of why Scotland would be better off independent. With all the problems we face in Scotland right now, I haven’t heard a single person complain about small boats? The subject just doesn’t come up. There are lots of really important issues that could be being dealt with but all the UK govt care about is these boats.
Everything else is just put to one side.


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Not saying you're wrong, but I expect you'd probably be able to find a few people who are concerned about these small boats in the away end at Easter Road tomorrow night. Those who have an explicitly British identity, choose to get their "news" from particular outlets etc...

But I agree with you in principle - the demographic who are "concerned about small boats", and sadly they do exist in large parts of the UK, simply don't exist in large numbers in Scotland. And they're not particularly vocal.

It's one of the problems when you have a far right English nationalist government at Westminster, a Scottish nationalist government in Scotland, populations who have different outlooks, and fairly distinct sets of problems facing the 2 countries albeit a number which are shared.

Of course, many of us think there's a solution to that...

[marinello59]

They did say they'd fight the next election by concentrating on culture wars. Actually managing the country or creating policies are always going to be poor second, given lip-service then not implemented.

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Which is why they will lose the next election. I can’t wait. :greengrin

[archie]

Not saying you're wrong, but I expect you'd probably be able to find a few people who are concerned about these small boats in the away end at Easter Road tomorrow night. Those who have an explicitly British identity, choose to get their "news" from particular outlets etc...

But I agree with you in principle - the demographic who are "concerned about small boats", and sadly they do exist in large parts of the UK, simply don't exist in large numbers in Scotland. And they're not particularly vocal.

It's one of the problems when you have a far right English nationalist government at Westminster, a Scottish nationalist government in Scotland, populations who have different outlooks, and fairly distinct sets of problems facing the 2 countries albeit a number which are shared.

Of course, many of us think there's a solution to that...
Care to evidence any of this?

[Kato]

Care to evidence any of this?Are you asking to provide evidence that the people who will be in the away end tomorrow identify as British?

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[archie]

Are you asking to provide evidence that the people who will be in the away end tomorrow identify as British?

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No. But I am interested to understand the belief that it's only the English who are concerned about people dying in the channel and only the English who are, by implication, racist.

[grunt]

Care to evidence any of this?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1SdOjvXoAQlAW6?format=jpg&name=medium

[archie]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1SdOjvXoAQlAW6?format=jpg&name=medium

You've posted a picture of an anti immigration raid protest in Glasgow. Is that it?

[grunt]

You've posted a picture of an anti immigration raid protest in Glasgow. Is that it?
You expecting a 100,000 word thesis on Scottish views on immigration? This is a football discussion board. The photo says all I want to say.

[He's here!]

Last few weeks are a good example of why Scotland would be better off independent. With all the problems we face in Scotland right now, I haven’t heard a single person complain about small boats? The subject just doesn’t come up. There are lots of really important issues that could be being dealt with but all the UK govt care about is these boats.
Everything else is just put to one side.


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I imagine the issue would spark significantly more interest among the Scottish electorate if our coastline was the most convenient place for these boats to land. The fact the overwhelming majority are landing on England's south coast makes it an out of sight out of mind issue here.

[J-C]

No. But I am interested to understand the belief that it's only the English who are concerned about people dying in the channel and only the English who are, by implication, racist.

You do realise that people dying in the channel is neither here nor there, anyone coming over on small boats will be immediately sent to jail and/or sent to Rwanda.

[archie]

You expecting a 100,000 word thesis on Scottish views on immigration? This is a football discussion board. The photo says all I want to say.

OK I get you don't want to engage. Evidence from the social attitudes survey that I have posted here suggest that there is a broad alignment in attitudes. In addition, anyone who travels to urban centres in England cannot fail to to notice the much more diverse racial mix than in most places in Scotland. In my view that is a good thing. It's cheap Scottish exceptionalism to attempt to paint Scots as somehow less racist than the English. In addition, I think using the small boats where dozens of people have died to make a point is pretty poor, especially as the point offered no possible solutions to an extremely complex issue. The Tories are attempt to use this as a wedge issue in a 'culture war'. That is despicable. But all this English are racists stuff is equally fighting a culture war - with a race element too.

[J-C]

OK I get you don't want to engage. Evidence from the social attitudes survey that I have posted here suggest that there is a broad alignment in attitudes. In addition, anyone who travels to urban centres in England cannot fail to to notice the much more diverse racial mix than in most places in Scotland. In my view that is a good thing. It's cheap Scottish exceptionalism to attempt to paint Scots as somehow less racist than the English. In addition, I think using the small boats where dozens of people have died to make a point is pretty poor, especially as the point offered no possible solutions to an extremely complex issue. The Tories are attempt to use this as a wedge issue in a 'culture war'. That is despicable. But all this English are racists stuff is equally fighting a culture war - with a race element too.

Have looked at Edinburgh and Glasgow recently, are you saying there no diversity of racial mixing, you must walk about with your eyes closed.

[Ozyhibby]

I imagine the issue would spark significantly more interest among the Scottish electorate if our coastline was the most convenient place for these boats to land. The fact the overwhelming majority are landing on England's south coast makes it an out of sight out of mind issue here.

Exactly. It’s not our issue but our govt is spending all its time on it and neglecting more important issues to Scottish voters.
Why isn’t the UK govt spending more time on issues we care about?


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[archie]

You do realise that people dying in the channel is neither here nor there, anyone coming over on small boats will be immediately sent to jail and/or sent to Rwanda.

I really don't think people dying in the channel is neither here nor there. I think the Rwanda scheme is despicable. But how many have actually been sent?

[archie]

Have looked at Edinburgh and Glasgow recently, are you saying there no diversity of racial mixing, you must walk about with your eyes closed.

Not compared to London for example.

[archie]

Have looked at Edinburgh and Glasgow recently, are you saying there no diversity of racial mixing, you must walk about with your eyes closed.

Here's the figures from the latest census for England and Wales. https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/uk-population-by-ethnicity/national-and-regional-populations/regional-ethnic-diversity/latest#:~:text=2021%20Census%20data%20for%20Englan d,17.0%25%20with%20white%20ethnic%20minorities

I don't think the Scottish figures are available yet, but here's some relatively recent stats https://www.statista.com/statistics/367842/scotland-ethnicity-of-population/

[Smartie]

No. But I am interested to understand the belief that it's only the English who are concerned about people dying in the channel and only the English who are, by implication, racist.

Nope.

I'm trying to avoid saying it's a black and white issue, but I think it would be fair to say that a higher proportion of English people than Scots have been convinced that the causes of their hardships are the likes of the EU and now that's no longer so relevant, the small boats.


I imagine the issue would spark significantly more interest among the Scottish electorate if our coastline was the most convenient place for these boats to land. The fact the overwhelming majority are landing on England's south coast makes it an out of sight out of mind issue here.

This is true and fair. It's not necessarily that "the English are racist" - it's that it is more likely that you'll be convinced by a particular argument if something's happening close to you and you're presented with an argument where you can join the dots and come up with a solution. Even if it is a poor solution.

When considering the "English are more racist than the Scots" argument, it's worth asking how welcoming the average Scot might be to boatloads of starving Irish people arriving in the present day?

[grunt]

I really don't think people dying in the channel is neither here nor there. I think the Rwanda scheme is despicable. But how many have actually been sent?
In what possible way is this relevant?

[He's here!]

Have looked at Edinburgh and Glasgow recently, are you saying there no diversity of racial mixing, you must walk about with your eyes closed.

There is increased diversity in Scotland due to global conflict/immigration etc on top of a burgeoning student population from overseas, but the only significant area of long-established ethnic diversity is on the south side of Glasgow. As Archie says it simply doesn't bear comparison to cities across England.

[Kato]

OK I get you don't want to engage. Evidence from the social attitudes survey that I have posted here suggest that there is a broad alignment in attitudes. In addition, anyone who travels to urban centres in England cannot fail to to notice the much more diverse racial mix than in most places in Scotland. In my view that is a good thing. It's cheap Scottish exceptionalism to attempt to paint Scots as somehow less racist than the English. In addition, I think using the small boats where dozens of people have died to make a point is pretty poor, especially as the point offered no possible solutions to an extremely complex issue. The Tories are attempt to use this as a wedge issue in a 'culture war'. That is despicable. But all this English are racists stuff is equally fighting a culture war - with a race element too.It was a far less complex issue pre-Brexit when return arrangements were in place with France and paperwork for the people in hotels was being processed more quickly. Its almost as though the Tories are playing politics with refugees and attempting to whip up hatred. That's what culture wars do, create divisions rather create understanding.

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[Kato]

Not compared to London for example.No where compares to London on that issue. England isn't just London.

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[Ozyhibby]

It was a far less complex issue pre-Brexit when return arrangements were in place with France and paperwork for the people in hotels was being processed more quickly. Its almost as though the Tories are playing politics with refugees and attempting to whip up hatred. That's what culture wars do, create divisions rather create understanding.

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And it’s paralysing our govt.[emoji849]


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[Kato]

And it’s paralysing our govt.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWhich is how they like it.

Create a "pressing concern", which creates an excuse to not do anything else.

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[archie]

Nope.

I'm trying to avoid saying it's a black and white issue, but I think it would be fair to say that a higher proportion of English people than Scots have been convinced that the causes of their hardships are the likes of the EU and now that's no longer so relevant, the small boats.



This is true and fair. It's not necessarily that "the English are racist" - it's that it is more likely that you'll be convinced by a particular argument if something's happening close to you and you're presented with an argument where you can join the dots and come up with a solution. Even if it is a poor solution.

When considering the "English are more racist than the Scots" argument, it's worth asking how welcoming the average Scot might be to boatloads of starving Irish people arriving in the present day?

Is that why you explicitly linked it to Rangers?

[archie]

In what possible way is this relevant?

Because it was suggested they would be sent to Rwanda.

[archie]

It was a far less complex issue pre-Brexit when return arrangements were in place with France and paperwork for the people in hotels was being processed more quickly. Its almost as though the Tories are playing politics with refugees and attempting to whip up hatred. That's what culture wars do, create divisions rather create understanding.

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So the issue is that it's harder to return people to France post Brexit?

[Kato]

So the issue is that it's harder to return people to France post Brexit?You said it was a complex issue.

I agreed and said it was more complex than it was in the past.

Now your asking me if I think it's one aspect of a complex issue?

Am not quite understanding the flow of your logic here.



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[grunt]

Because it was suggested they would be sent to Rwanda.The fact that their policy hasn't worked is no comfort.

[Smartie]

Is that why you explicitly linked it to Rangers?

I don't follow - please elaborate.

[archie]

I don't follow - please elaborate.

The original post included this:

'Not saying you're wrong, but I expect you'd probably be able to find a few people who are concerned about these small boats in the away end at Easter Road tomorrow night. Those who have an explicitly British identity, choose to get their "news" from particular outlets etc...'

Then used this example: 'When considering the "English are more racist than the Scots" argument, it's worth asking how welcoming the average Scot might be to boatloads of starving Irish people arriving in the present day?'

Did I misunderstood?

[archie]

The fact that their policy hasn't worked is no comfort.

Actually I agree.

[archie]

You said it was a complex issue.

I agreed and said it was more complex than it was in the past.

Now your asking me if I think it's one aspect of a complex issue?

Am not quite understanding the flow of your logic here.



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I think it was because you moved it on to Brexit and it therefore being harder to return people to France that caught me off guard.

[Kato]

I think it was because you moved it on to Brexit and it therefore being harder to return people to France that caught me off guard.That is one aspect of complex issue.

Not being rude archie, but do you read up on these subjects before asking questions on here?

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[archie]

That is one aspect of complex issue.

Not being rude archie, but do you read up on these subjects before asking questions on here?

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Yes. That's why if I am making a point I tend to cite sources. And yes, that was a bit rude.

[J-C]

Because it was suggested they would be sent to Rwanda.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/05/sunak-to-launch-bill-to-bar-asylum-claims-from-people-arriving-on-small-boats

[Kato]

I didn't mean to be rude, hence the caveat.

The UK, post Brexit, is longer subject to the Dublin III regulation, sometimes known as the Dublin accord, which allowed a swift return, mainly to France, of some people landing on these shores.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seeker-brexit-manston-sunak-b2216224.html%3famp

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[archie]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/05/sunak-to-launch-bill-to-bar-asylum-claims-from-people-arriving-on-small-boats

I saw that. Disgraceful.

[archie]

I didn't mean to be rude, hence the caveat.

The UK, post Brexit, is longer subject to the Dublin III regulation, sometimes known as the Dublin accord, which allowed a swift return, mainly to France, of some people landing on these shores.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seeker-brexit-manston-sunak-b2216224.html%3famp

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So how do we sort the small boats issue? Firstly, it can't be right that people are dying in the channel and that people trafficking is making millions. Clearly people want to come here. So how do we address that? There isn't a single or easy answer. I think there needs to be bilateral cooperation with the EU on migration. Obviously that's harder after Brexit, but it just has to be grasped. I don't think it's fair to blame the French alone for the conditions in Calais, but to be blunt I think the UK and the French need to work together to improve conditions for refugees in France. I think UK and EU should reach a deal over taking numbers of refugees. And I think refugees should be treated fairly and humanely both here and in Europe. But with all that in place (unlikely at the moment) there will still be people who want to come here. Even with a shared and implemented policy objective with Europe, there will still be people who want to come here who won't meet immigration criteria. Ideally you stop it at source, but given the chaos in the world how likely is that. I'm genuinely open to thoughts and ideas.

[Santa Cruz]

I didn't mean to be rude, hence the caveat.

The UK, post Brexit, is longer subject to the Dublin III regulation, sometimes known as the Dublin accord, which allowed a swift return, mainly to France, of some people landing on these shores.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/asylum-seeker-brexit-manston-sunak-b2216224.html%3famp

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What would happen to the asylum seekers once returned to France in the pre brexit agreement, do you know?

The only reason I'm asking is after reading about the horrific loss of life of Italy's coast last week it did make me wonder the approach other European counties take. I've not read about France, but can't say I find the Italian or Greek Gov's policy as a campassionate way to deal with the situation. I don't know the answers, just seems like other International Gov's don't either, including the UK.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/20/italy-forcibly-returning-asylum-seekers-to-greece-investigation

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/30/eu-tells-greece-to-stop-violent-deportations-of-asylum-seekers

[Smartie]

So how do we sort the small boats issue? Firstly, it can't be right that people are dying in the channel and that people trafficking is making millions. Clearly people want to come here. So how do we address that? There isn't a single or easy answer. I think there needs to be bilateral cooperation with the EU on migration. Obviously that's harder after Brexit, but it just has to be grasped. I don't think it's fair to blame the French alone for the conditions in Calais, but to be blunt I think the UK and the French need to work together to improve conditions for refugees in France. I think UK and EU should reach a deal over taking numbers of refugees. And I think refugees should be treated fairly and humanely both here and in Europe. But with all that in place (unlikely at the moment) there will still be people who want to come here. Even with a shared and implemented policy objective with Europe, there will still be people who want to come here who won't meet immigration criteria. Ideally you stop it at source, but given the chaos in the world how likely is that. I'm genuinely open to thoughts and ideas.

I also think we have a duty to place "the small boats issue" in context.

Personally, I think it's being weaponised by a vile (but mainstream enough to be the government of the day) political party, a party who has senior figures who are keen on a "culture war" in order to hoodwink people into thinking that by voting for a party who will "solve the small boats issue" that it will actually improve their lives.

The Tories need to do it because if they don't, that nice Nigel Farage man who drinks pints and "says it as it is" will take enough voters off them from within an element of their voter base to threaten their grip on power.

[Ozyhibby]

What would happen to the asylum seekers once returned to France in the pre brexit agreement, do you know?

The only reason I'm asking is after reading about the horrific loss of life of Italy's coast last week it did make me wonder the approach other European counties take. I've not read about France, but can't say I find the Italian or Greek Gov's policy as a campassionate way to deal with the situation. I don't know the answers, just seems like other International Gov's don't either, including the UK.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/20/italy-forcibly-returning-asylum-seekers-to-greece-investigation

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/6/30/eu-tells-greece-to-stop-violent-deportations-of-asylum-seekers

How about process them properly and train them to be carers, nurses, teachers etc?


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[Kato]

How about process them properly and train them to be carers, nurses, teachers etc?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDoesn't suit a culture war.

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[Santa Cruz]

How about process them properly and train them to be carers, nurses, teachers etc?


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I'm wondering why this isn't happening in other countries who don't appear to have a a humane policy for dealing with asylum seekers. I'm not defending the UK Gov's indefensible policy, it just appears from the limited articles I've read that other Gov's don't have the answers either.

[Stairway 2 7]

When asked an there's not much difference between Scots and English when asked if they approved of the Rwanda policy, about 33% of Scots approve and 51% oppose

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/06/13/c8bf1/1

[marinello59]

When asked an there's not much difference between Scots and English when asked if they approved of the Rwanda policy, about 33% of Scots approve and 51% oppose

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/06/13/c8bf1/1

That doesn’t surprise me.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm wondering why this isn't happening in other countries who don't appear to have a a humane policy for dealing with asylum seekers. I'm not defending the UK Gov's indefensible policy, it just appears from the limited articles I've read that other Gov's don't have the answers either.

EU has been paying turkey and Libya to take their asylum seekers for years. The stories from Libyan mass camps are horrific

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/12/06/the-secretive-libyan-prisons-that-keep-migrants-out-of-europe


Last year I put up the video of Spanish border patrol beating to death multiple people trying to get in from Melilla
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/29/morocco/spain-horrific-migrant-deaths-melilla-border


We in Europe treat immigrants disgraceful, from us and Denmark with our Rwanda plans, eu camps in Greece and Libya to border fences being put up in Poland. Its going to get worse due to the climate emergency and people hunting for safe livable places. It's also simply stupid as we all have aging falling populations, so we all desperately need young workers

[Stairway 2 7]

We can argue about what currency and how much our businesses will make post independence all day. But this is why we must get independence. Read the tories bullet points for the new immigration bill. I do not want to live for another minute or bring up kids in such a country that imprisons kids them removes them on their 18th birthday.

You can argue labour aren't like this and they aren't, but the majority of the time they aren't in power. Anyone that votes for them at the next election is complicit

https://mobile.twitter.com/hyjpang_/status/1633110172422873092

[grunt]

So how do we sort the small boats issue?
What issue? There is no "small boats" issue. It's a manufactured culture war offensive. There's a fascist xenophobic right-wing isolationist Brexit Tory Government issue.

There is no legal route for refugees to enter the UK. France have offered to help the UK Govt open an asylum processing centre in Calais, but the Fascist Tory Government refused the offer.

Since we did the moronically stupid Brexit we are no longer party to the Dublin Convention, so we no longer have any legal agreement to return refugees to France.

And by the way, Scotland needs inward migration. Multiculturalism is good for the country.

[Mibbes Aye]

How about process them properly and train them to be carers, nurses, teachers etc?


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It’s a nice sound bite but in practice, really?

Do we tell children that when they grow up they shall be teachers? Or even tell adults for that matter? What if they don’t want to? What if they don’t have the skills?

You only get asylum if you fit into our workforce planning strategy?

FWIW I suspect you weren’t proposing that.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s a nice sound bite but in practice, really?

Do we tell children that when they grow up they shall be teachers? Or even adults for that matter? What if they don’t want to? What if they don’t have the skills?

You only get asylum if you fit into our workforce planning strategy?

FWIW I suspect you weren’t proposing that.

The UK has a workforce planning strategy?[emoji23]
Obviously what I was really meaning was add them to the Labour force, not force them into specific jobs.


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[archie]

What issue? There is no "small boats" issue. It's a manufactured culture war offensive. There's a fascist xenophobic right-wing isolationist Brexit Tory Government issue.


People are dying. That's an issue!

[Mibbes Aye]

The UK has a workforce planning strategy?[emoji23]
Obviously what I was really meaning was add them to the Labour force, not force them into specific jobs.


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I guessed, hence my caveat :greengrin

Scotland and England have their own workforce strategies for health and care, as you would expect. Same for pretty much most public sector functions. Their effectiveness is another matter.

The same doesn’t really exist to the same degree in the private sector, as one would expect, unless it is a product of statutory agencies’ commissioning plans.

Hence, if there are issues recruiting carers in a particular geographical area, the statutory agencies might support or part-subsidise higher education to deliver SVQ2s and 3s or facilitate people setting up micro-enterprises. These people, either as staff or business starters would be an example of the public sector ‘growing’ the private sector to create a mixed economy of care. It is not necessarily a bad thing, but obviously relies on the contribution from the public sector.

It would be interesting to hear if it comes up in tonight’s debate - Forbes will understand this, as a Highland MSP. Yousaf should understand this as the relevant Cabinet minister.

[Hibrandenburg]

I imagine the issue would spark significantly more interest among the Scottish electorate if our coastline was the most convenient place for these boats to land. The fact the overwhelming majority are landing on England's south coast makes it an out of sight out of mind issue here.

You're bang on the money. Your average Scottish fascist is every bit as odious as your English one. I just think that the Scottish electorate are less likely to turn a blind eye to them being open about it.

[greenginger]

I
You're bang on the money. Your average Scottish fascist is every bit as odious as your English one. I just think that the Scottish electorate are less likely to turn a blind eye to them being open about it.

Can you explain the attraction of facist UK to those willing to risk their lives crossing the Channel when they are already living in the cosy generous lands of the EU.

[grunt]

I

Can you explain the attraction of facist UK to those willing to risk their lives crossing the Channel when they are already living in the cosy generous lands of the EU.

Really?

[grunt]

People are dying. That's an issue!

Deaths caused by the (in)actions of the Tory Govt.

[greenginger]

Really?

Really what ?

Really why ?

Really who ?

Really. ? :confused:

[Hibrandenburg]

I

Can you explain the attraction of facist UK to those willing to risk their lives crossing the Channel when they are already living in the cosy generous lands of the EU.

There's too much to list but our home grown fascists isn't one of them.

[greenginger]

There's too much to list but our home grown fascists isn't one of them.

So your saying the UK is actually quite an attractive country to live in , preferable to the EU which many on here seem desperate to rejoin.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Kato]

So your saying the UK is actually quite an attractive country to live in , preferable to the EU which many on here seem desperate to rejoin.

Thanks for clearing that up.Laughable really.

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[greenginger]

The
Laughable really.

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Another “ Really “ response :confused:

[Stairway 2 7]

So your saying the UK is actually quite an attractive country to live in , preferable to the EU which many on here seem desperate to rejoin.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Of course the uk is attractive, we are very very fortunate to have the safe generally well of lives we live on average.

It's not preferable to most. The number of immigrants that come to the UK is dwarfed by those that settle in the rest of Europe. There is many reasons people choose the UK, its a very commonly spoken language that is obviously a large draw for someone starting a new life, there is also a family pull for many as they will travel through countries to live in a country where they have friends and family

[greenginger]

Of course the uk is attractive, we are very very fortunate to have the safe generally well of lives we live on average.

It's not preferable to most. The number of immigrants that come to the UK is dwarfed by those that settle in the rest of Europe. There is many reasons people choose the UK, its a very commonly spoken language that is obviously a large draw for someone starting a new life, there is also a family pull for many as they will travel through countries to live in a country where they have friends and family

I’m glad you agree the UK is an attractive place to live in , some on here would have us believe its being turned into a fascist state by a despicable Tory government and we’re all doomed .

[Stairway 2 7]

I’m glad you agree the UK is an attractive place to live in , some on here would have us believe its being turned into a fascist state by a despicable Tory government and we’re all doomed .

It's a fascist policy. I'd also say being attractive to people fleeing poverty that is unimaginable to us isn't a high bar

[marinello59]

It's a fascist policy. I'd also say being attractive to people fleeing poverty that is unimaginable to us isn't a high bar

It’s not poverty they are fleeing. We are talking about asylum seekers. It’s oppression.

[Kato]

The


Another “ Really “ response :confused:If that's your take on a migrant crisis? Worth a giggle.

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[He's here!]

People are dying. That's an issue!

Indeed. Numbers crossing illegally have risen from 300 in 2018 to more than 45k last year. It's hardly a niche issue that doesn't need addressed.

[Hibrandenburg]

So your saying the UK is actually quite an attractive country to live in , preferable to the EU which many on here seem desperate to rejoin.

Thanks for clearing that up.

The vast majority of people seeking asylum do so elsewhere, the UK is well down the pecking order for those seeking asylum, but those who do, do so for various reasons including family ties, historical connection and the language.

This UK government ticks many boxes that have cross-over with fascism, they concentrate on control rather than governing in the interests of all the people, they've created a them and us culture, they continue to distort the truth and replace it with their own "facts" and their greatest success thus far is convincing people that removing their rights is a good thing. They also came to power on a wave of fear mongering rather than being elected on merit, with the help of a compliant media they demonised the opposition.

Tory politics has drifted further right than the fascist policy of the 1970's BNP, if it was fascism then, why is it not fascism today? Fascism arrives as your friend, not carrying guns and wearing Jack Boots.

[archie]

It’s not poverty they are fleeing. We are talking about asylum seekers. It’s oppression.

This is where it gets tricky. As I understand it the largest group of people are from Albania. Is that 'oppressive' in an asylum sense? That's not to say that it's not legitimate to want to move for economic reasons.

[archie]

Deaths caused by the (in)actions of the Tory Govt.

No responsibility on the people traffickers?

[Hibrandenburg]

No responsibility on the people traffickers?

No, the government share that responsibility for giving them a market within which they can operate.

[archie]

No, the government share that responsibility for giving them a market within which they can operate.

By that reasoning every government that has immigration controls is complicit with people traffickers.

[Ozyhibby]

No, the government share that responsibility for giving them a market within which they can operate.

And making the UK the perfect place for such enterprises to be run from with multiple ways to launder the money they make.


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[archie]

And making the UK the perfect place for such enterprises to be run from with multiple ways to launder the money they make.


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I don't understand the point you are making.

[Hibrandenburg]

By that reasoning every government that has immigration controls is complicit with people traffickers.

There is no legal route for many asylum seekers to enter the UK and asylum can only be requested from within the UK. It's not really that complicated to understand why many asylum seekers are now forced to use traffickers to get here to make their claim.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't understand the point you are making.

London is a great place for organised crime. The ability to launder the money the people traffickers make is very important to them. These gangs are based here, not in France. And there is a reason behind that.


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[archie]

There is no legal route for many asylum seekers to enter the UK and asylum can only be requested from within the UK. It's not really that complicated to understand why many asylum seekers are now forced to use traffickers to get here to make their claim.

So let me get this right, it's not immigration controls per se, but the operation of the asylum system?

[Bristolhibby]

Indeed. Numbers crossing illegally have risen from 300 in 2018 to more than 45k last year. It's hardly a niche issue that doesn't need addressed.

It’s a Brexit issue not a small boat issue.

The change in relationship caused by Brexit means there’s no agreement for them to go back to France.

Tories caused it with their obsession with scorched earth Brexit. Rather than a BINO type policy of close alignment and remaining in the single marker. Out of the EU (as people wanted) but not blowing our hands off in the process. If they wanted to this could have been sold to the masses, they'd have bought it.

But no.

J

[archie]

London is a great place for organised crime. The ability to launder the money the people traffickers make is very important to them. These gangs are based here, not in France. And there is a reason behind that.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSo to be absolutely clear, the trafficing gangs are based here, rather than, say, Albania?

[Stairway 2 7]

So to be absolutely clear, the trafficing gangs are based here, rather than, say, Albania?

Albanians control alot of the drug trade in the uk and European, its these same gangs

[Ozyhibby]

So to be absolutely clear, the trafficing gangs are based here, rather than, say, Albania?

I watched a report the other day on one of the news channels which said they very much were based in the UK.


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[grunt]

I watched a report the other day on one of the news channels which said they very much were based in the UK.

https://news.sky.com/story/a-people-smuggler-who-sends-migrants-across-the-channel-reveals-how-the-small-boats-trade-works-12806865

[archie]

https://news.sky.com/story/a-people-smuggler-who-sends-migrants-across-the-channel-reveals-how-the-small-boats-trade-works-12806865

Saw that. There was a lot a BBC report from Albania which highlighted linkages along the chain.

[grunt]

Saw that. There was a lot a BBC report from Albania which highlighted linkages along the chain.
I'm sure it's a lot more complex than the report makes out. One thing is for sure - the Tories' "Illegal" Bill won't stop the traffickers.

[He's here!]

This is where it gets tricky. As I understand it the largest group of people are from Albania. Is that 'oppressive' in an asylum sense? That's not to say that it's not legitimate to want to move for economic reasons.

As a candidate for EU membership Albania is a designated 'safe state' which means citizens face 'no serious risk of persecution'. I don't doubt there are Albanians who are simply striving for a better life by coming to the UK but the surge in numbers to the extent they represent the largest group of illegal immigrants by a distance is clearly at odds with the country's perceived safe status.

[He's here!]

Saw that. There was a lot a BBC report from Albania which highlighted linkages along the chain.

Yes, it highlighted the strong foothold traffickers have in Northern France. A network trafficking Albanians to the UK via Spain was also broken up last year:

https://www.nationalcrimeagency.gov.uk/news/albanian-people-smuggling-network-who-shipped-migrants-to-the-uk-from-spain-dismantled

[degenerated]

Defence of the union really seems to be leading unionists to try and defend the indefensible.

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-david-mcwilliams-podcast/id1462649946?i=1000603322710

Not really an Indy point but thought I would put it here anyway. More about what is going wrong in UK in general and for it to be an Indy point you would have to show that there was a plan to go in this different direction.
Really worth a listen though.


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[He's here!]

Big drop in support for independence according to latest polling:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23373190.no-now-nine-points-ahead-yes-new-independence-poll/

[grunt]

Panic!!!

https://twitter.com/chrismusson/status/1633912580262510592?s=61&t=-BLvE2XlsyxZYcSjKNkxtg

Foreign Secretary to urge UK ambassadors to keep eye on SNP ministers on overseas trips to ensure they're not "undermining" Britain and selling independence. Comes amid claims diplomats being exploited to arrange meetings then used to further UK break-up.

[Hibrandenburg]

Panic!!!

https://twitter.com/chrismusson/status/1633912580262510592?s=61&t=-BLvE2XlsyxZYcSjKNkxtg

Foreign Secretary to urge UK ambassadors to keep eye on SNP ministers on overseas trips to ensure they're not "undermining" Britain and selling independence. Comes amid claims diplomats being exploited to arrange meetings then used to further UK break-up.

Nothing new.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230310/aa70b1085f910f0840c07d12d9e5593c.jpg


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[Glory Lurker]

For a country that's not allowed to have an independence referendum, I do wonder where the point is in all the opinion polls about independence. You'd be as well polling on Scotland declaring war on Paraguay (I'm a don't know, if they ask me).

[Hibrandenburg]

You'd be as well polling on Scotland declaring war on Paraguay (I'm a don't know, if they ask me).

I think we'd win but I'm definitely against.

[The Tubs]

I think we'd win but I'm definitely against.

I dunno. They put up fairly stiff resistance against the UK-backed alliance of Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay.

Edit: maybe the UK wasn't involved (I've heard too many folk tales):

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/23/paraguay-britain-war-of-the-triple-alliance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War



(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraguayan_War)

[The Modfather]

For a country that's not allowed to have an independence referendum, I do wonder where the point is in all the opinion polls about independence. You'd be as well polling on Scotland declaring war on Paraguay (I'm a don't know, if they ask me).

For those proposing that opinion polls are the barometer of when there are grounds for a referendum or not, we’ve seen two polls posted that show both sides in the lead. What does that mean for using opinion polls as a barometer?

[Skol]

For a country that's not allowed to have an independence referendum, I do wonder where the point is in all the opinion polls about independence. You'd be as well polling on Scotland declaring war on Paraguay (I'm a don't know, if they ask me).

2014 suggests we are allowed.

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

For a country that's not allowed to have an independence referendum, I do wonder where the point is in all the opinion polls about independence. You'd be as well polling on Scotland declaring war on Paraguay (I'm a don't know, if they ask me).

I’m a strong yes on that. **** Paraguay [emoji23]


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[WeeRussell]

2014 suggests we are allowed.

It doesn’t. It suggests we were.

[Moulin Yarns]

2014 suggests we were allowed.

FTFY.


Now, can you please explain how we need to be 'allowed'?

[Skol]

FTFY.


Now, can you please explain how we need to be 'allowed'?

I have said many times there should be agreed criteria in place then a referendum held. They shouldn’t be held every time they are asked for.

[Ozyhibby]

I have said many times there should be agreed criteria in place then a referendum held. They shouldn’t be held every time they are asked for.

I agree with this. There could and should be a period of time in between referendums. I would be happy with 10 years but for the fact that it’s 7 in NI and therefore we should never accept less. This should be done in agreement with the SG and based on the will of the Scottish Parliament.


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[Skol]

I agree with this. There could and should be a period of time in between referendums. I would be happy with 10 years but for the fact that it’s 7 in NI and therefore we should never accept less. This should be done in agreement with the SG and based on the will of the Scottish Parliament.


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7 years feels too short on its own unless there are other criteria. A majority voting at holy rood in support as an example.

The NI precedent though does set the terms. What are the other requirements for their to be a referendum there

[Stairway 2 7]

No sure what Ben is on about but I disagree

https://mobile.twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1634685051387498501


conor_matchett
EXCLUSIVE: The SNP's campaign for independence should "go down a gear" as Scotland is not yet ready to independent, an SNP minister has said

Ben MacPherson has written for the SoS setting out his view on what could be a seismic shift in the SNP's approach all in tomorrow's paper

His suggestions include working with Labour to develop a new and better constitutional settlement in the absence of an agreement for indyref2

His piece, which runs in full, is the most explicit case made for gradualism made by a senior figure for a long, long time.

[GlesgaeHibby]

No sure what Ben is on about but I disagree

https://mobile.twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1634685051387498501


conor_matchett
EXCLUSIVE: The SNP's campaign for independence should "go down a gear" as Scotland is not yet ready to independent, an SNP minister has said

Ben MacPherson has written for the SoS setting out his view on what could be a seismic shift in the SNP's approach all in tomorrow's paper

His suggestions include working with Labour to develop a new and better constitutional settlement in the absence of an agreement for indyref2

His piece, which runs in full, is the most explicit case made for gradualism made by a senior figure for a long, long time.

What campaign?! They've sat on their hands for the last 8/9 years. Support for independence when Sturgeon took office was around 50/50 and she leaves with popular support for independence no further forward.

[Ozyhibby]

No sure what Ben is on about but I disagree

https://mobile.twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1634685051387498501


conor_matchett
EXCLUSIVE: The SNP's campaign for independence should "go down a gear" as Scotland is not yet ready to independent, an SNP minister has said

Ben MacPherson has written for the SoS setting out his view on what could be a seismic shift in the SNP's approach all in tomorrow's paper

His suggestions include working with Labour to develop a new and better constitutional settlement in the absence of an agreement for indyref2

His piece, which runs in full, is the most explicit case made for gradualism made by a senior figure for a long, long time.

I both agree and disagree. The campaign should not stop but we should try and find a way to make devolution better. I know that’s difficult just now as Labour seem to want to just keep the status quo. Browns long awaited report was an absolute waste of his and our time. Still, the SG should always be looking for ways to make things better for Scots. And besides, asking for something that seems very reasonable for most Scots and seeing it being denied is one way of building support for Indy.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I both agree and disagree. The campaign should not stop but we should try and find a way to make devolution better. I know that’s difficult just now as Labour seem to want to just keep the status quo. Browns long awaited report was an absolute waste of his and our time. Still, the SG should always be looking for ways to make things better for Scots. And besides, asking for something that seems very reasonable for most Scots and seeing it being denied is one way of building support for Indy.


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I'm unsure. Some said the section 35 would grow independence but it's undeniably went down since then. Québec shows apathy can be a danger to independence

[Rumble de Thump]

In a democracy it's incumbent on the UK Government to tell people in Scotland how the country can possibly hold a legally binding referendum on independence. It is choosing not to do so and will continue to do that until Labour gets voted in. But Labour shows no signs of behaving in a more democratic manner.

Far too much has changed significantly for the worse in the UK in the past decade for another referendum not to be allowed to take place. So what can the Scottish Government or the Yes movement do to make it happen? There doesn't seem to be an answer.

[Stairway 2 7]

In a democracy it's incumbent on the UK Government to tell people in Scotland how the country can possibly hold a legally binding referendum on independence. It is choosing not to do so and will continue to do that until Labour gets voted in. But Labour shows no signs of behaving in a more democratic manner.

Far too much has changed significantly for the worse in the UK in the past decade for another referendum not to be allowed to take place. So what can the Scottish Government or the Yes movement do to make it happen? There doesn't seem to be an answer.

Being ahead in the polls has to be a given or there is no conversation to be had

[Rumble de Thump]

Being ahead in the polls has to be a given or there is no conversation to be had

Is that official?

[Ozyhibby]

Being ahead in the polls has to be a given or there is no conversation to be had

I don’t think polling data is a way to decide such things. Actual election results need to be the way forward.


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[Bostonhibby]

I think we'd win but I'm definitely against.Lose on penalties.

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[Santa Cruz]

In a democracy it's incumbent on the UK Government to tell people in Scotland how the country can possibly hold a legally binding referendum on independence. It is choosing not to do so and will continue to do that until Labour gets voted in. But Labour shows no signs of behaving in a more democratic manner.

Far too much has changed significantly for the worse in the UK in the past decade for another referendum not to be allowed to take place. So what can the Scottish Government or the Yes movement do to make it happen? There doesn't seem to be an answer.

I'm taking this a bit off topic (sorry, can't remember if it was this thread I originally posted on), I posted a link indicating Labour were consulting on PR voting as part of electoral reform. Read yesterday, think it might have been the Welsh Labour Conf, Mark Drakeford made a case for this. It was rejected by Keir Starmer, he said it wasn't a priority for an incoming Labour Gov.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don’t think polling data is a way to decide such things. Actual election results need to be the way forward.


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If every poll like dozens has no ahead there will be no referendum, both sides wouldn't want it. If there is a second no victory then that is it for 20 years or so anyway

[grunt]

If every poll like dozens has no ahead there will be no referendum, both sides wouldn't want it. If there is a second no victory then that is it for 20 years or so anyway
A generation?

[Stairway 2 7]

A generation?

I'm not sure what a generation is it seems a buzz word used by both sides, but common sense says the next vote is very important I'm sure the snp knows this

[Mibbes Aye]

I both agree and disagree. The campaign should not stop but we should try and find a way to make devolution better. I know that’s difficult just now as Labour seem to want to just keep the status quo. Browns long awaited report was an absolute waste of his and our time. Still, the SG should always be looking for ways to make things better for Scots. And besides, asking for something that seems very reasonable for most Scots and seeing it being denied is one way of building support for Indy.


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I thought there was clear polling, none of this marginal stuff, that Scots (both Yes and No) didn't want a vote anytime soon :confused:

Apologies in advance if I've got this one wrong.

[Ozyhibby]

I thought there was clear polling, none of this marginal stuff, that Scots (both Yes and No) didn't want a vote anytime soon :confused:

Apologies in advance if I've got this one wrong.

I don’t mean asking for a vote. I mean asking for this little power or that, which seems like a small thing should be done if it can make life better for Scots. I’m thinking of control over drug policy. Control over business taxation. Etc etc. The snp should look to the Labour Party in order to build support on an issue by issue basis.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I don’t mean asking for a vote. I mean asking for this little power or that, which seems like a small thing should be done if it can make life better for Scots. I’m thinking of control over drug policy. Control over business taxation. Etc etc. The snp should look to the Labour Party in order to build support on an issue by issue basis.


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Got you. Re drugs policy, it would require a major rewrite of the Misuse of Drugs Act and potentially a couple of other pieces of legislation. You need a good majority at Westminster for that, because for at least some MPs it will be a conscience thing. That's not anything more than acknowledging that to male DCRs secure from legal challenge then other legislation needs amended first.

Although Starmer is presenting as not interested, I suspect it will be on the table post-election if the polls hold true. I think people forget he was once asked in an interview whether he had taken drugs before and avoided answering fourteen times. Plus Thangam Debbonaire is a big advocate of DCRs and very much rose hrough the ranks to shadow Cabinet under Starmer.

[Berwickhibby]

According to Sky, the latest YouGov poll has people wanting independence down to 39% … that’s the lowest I have seen any poll in a long time

[danhibees1875]

According to Sky, the latest YouGov poll has people wanting independence down to 39% … that’s the lowest I have seen any poll in a long time

I think sensationalised slightly by not excluding don't knows. Still one of the larger No leads though, I think.

[Smartie]

According to Sky, the latest YouGov poll has people wanting independence down to 39% … that’s the lowest I have seen any poll in a long time

The SNP were a fairly tight unit for a long time and their early record in government was good. They were fairly popular.

It was probably "the Salmond fiasco" that was the first major crisis they faced.

As time has gone by, things have unravelled for them and in truth, the last 6 months or so have been a disaster for them so it's not really that much of a surprise to see a big change here.

Not that I expect it to happen but I think they could do with being out of power for a while. Let the Scottish branch of Labour have a shot at spending the spending money, let folk see how much their lives improve, then come back with the suggestion that it would only properly improve with independence.

[Stairway 2 7]

According to Sky, the latest YouGov poll has people wanting independence down to 39% … that’s the lowest I have seen any poll in a long time

Survation similar. They need to get this leadership contest over and get back on track

@electpoliticsuk
Scottish independence Voting Intention:

NO: 48% (+3)
YES: 40% (-4)
Don't know: 12% (+1)

Don't know excluded:

NO: 55% (+4)
YES: 45% (-4)

Via
@Survation
, On 8-10 March,
Changes w/ 1-7 February.

[degenerated]

According to Sky, the latest YouGov poll has people wanting independence down to 39% … that’s the lowest I have seen any poll in a long timeYet there was a poll the other day showing a 4 point lead for yes. If that doesn't tell us that polling is a load of pish then nothing will.

[Stairway 2 7]

Yet there was a poll the other day showing a 4 point lead for yes. If that doesn't tell us that polling is a load of pish then nothing will.

Think you have to look at them in a series. Yes had a run ahead at the end of last year. It's now something like 11 no leads with 1 yes ahead. The direction is clear but can probably be explained due to everything that has went on this year. It doesn't really matter as there won't be a vote in the next couple of years. Only thing that matters is winning those no's with the new leader

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230314/f46b5b49b702bc175cb68f66242a9abd.jpg
Exactly what we need.[emoji849] Isn’t he our Rishi as well anyway?


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[xyz23jc]

Yet there was a poll the other day showing a 4 point lead for yes. If that doesn't tell us that polling is a load of pish then nothing will.


Makes you wonder why they won't allow another referendum though, eh? :wink:

[grunt]

From the horse's mouth

https://twitter.com/DaveDooganSNP/status/1635995836642410500?s=20

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/uk-levelling-up/scotland-new-snp-leader.html

Scotland falling further behind.


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[Stairway 2 7]

The average of polls is around the same as the referendum result when she took over too

Peter A Smith
@PeterAdamSmith
·
When Nicola Sturgeon took over from Alex Salmond as SNP leader the party had more members (85k) than she leaves it with now (72k) despite her having more than 8 years at the helm.

Multiple election wins, incredible personal popularity ratings. But this too is part of her legacy

[Kato]

The average of polls is around the same as the referendum result when she took over too

Peter A Smith
@PeterAdamSmith
·
When Nicola Sturgeon took over from Alex Salmond as SNP leader the party had more members (85k) than she leaves it with now (72k) despite her having more than 8 years at the helm.

Multiple election wins, incredible personal popularity ratings. But this too is part of her legacyOr some people are skint.

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[Stairway 2 7]

Or some people are skint.

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Optimistic in snp terms to say that the sudden jolt in seven months is due to people being skint. Its stayed steady for years through the cost of living crisis. 10k this year alone

[Ozyhibby]

Or some people are skint.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

I don’t think that quite covers the size of the drop in last year.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Superb from Stephen Flynn I said when NS stood down I was gutted it wasn't 6 months later as SF will have a summer of destroying Sunak. He'd walk this FM election if he'd ran

https://mobile.twitter.com/Mrbaiti/status/1636462951686086679

Stephen Flynn on Hunts budget -

“People can’t afford their energy bills. He wants older & disabled people to pull up their socks & have an MOT and get back to work.. Giving the richest tax breaks on pension. I can’t wait for them to get stuffed at the next election!” #bbcqt

[marinello59]

The average of polls is around the same as the referendum result when she took over too

Peter A Smith
@PeterAdamSmith
·
When Nicola Sturgeon took over from Alex Salmond as SNP leader the party had more members (85k) than she leaves it with now (72k) despite her having more than 8 years at the helm.

Multiple election wins, incredible personal popularity ratings. But this too is part of her legacy

Are you saying the Empress had no clothes. :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

Are you saying the Empress had no clothes. :greengrin

But, she had better clothes than the rUK. There were good examples of women just her size, with nice clothes elsewhere in Europe. She had a mandate for clothes, indeed it was the free and sovereign will of the Scottish people that she had clothes.

She didn't have any clothes, no :greengrin

[xyz23jc]

But, she had better clothes than the rUK. There were good examples of women just her size, with nice clothes elsewhere in Europe. She had a mandate for clothes, indeed it was the free and sovereign will of the Scottish people that she had clothes.
She didn't have any clothes, no :greengrin


Totty Rocks I believe...! Lol! :wink::greengrin

[Kato]

I don’t think that quite covers the size of the drop in last year.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI did say some. Some will be pissed off too no doubt.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

NOT on the BBC Scots overseas food, drink exports at record £8.1bn – Scottish Financial Review (https://scottishfinancialreview.com/2023/03/16/scots-overseas-food-drink-exports-at-record-8-1bn/?fbclid=IwAR0tJWkiPve-WfjOMvYJSn4LVIPAXqGTuEwVr6mtbZhPvdWbjsG_rYS1YWM)

brilliant, what a fabulous country we will be after independence


whilst poor england goes bankrupt without the theft of Scottish resources

[archie]

NOT on the BBC Scots overseas food, drink exports at record £8.1bn – Scottish Financial Review (https://scottishfinancialreview.com/2023/03/16/scots-overseas-food-drink-exports-at-record-8-1bn/?fbclid=IwAR0tJWkiPve-WfjOMvYJSn4LVIPAXqGTuEwVr6mtbZhPvdWbjsG_rYS1YWM)

brilliant, what a fabulous country we will be after independence


whilst poor england goes bankrupt without the theft of Scottish resources

Theft?

[Mibbes Aye]

NOT on the BBC Scots overseas food, drink exports at record £8.1bn – Scottish Financial Review (https://scottishfinancialreview.com/2023/03/16/scots-overseas-food-drink-exports-at-record-8-1bn/?fbclid=IwAR0tJWkiPve-WfjOMvYJSn4LVIPAXqGTuEwVr6mtbZhPvdWbjsG_rYS1YWM)

brilliant, what a fabulous country we will be after independence


whilst poor england goes bankrupt without the theft of Scottish resources

Theft?

Anyway, the quoted figure is in large part due to Scotch whisky exports.

And most Scotch whisky is owned by companies outwith Scotland. The production is the only thing that happens in the country.

The profits go to the shareholders of companies like Diageo and Pernod-Ricard. Their headquarters are in London and Paris respectively.

[weecounty hibby]

Theft?

Anyway, the quoted figure is in large part due to Scotch whisky exports.

And most Scotch whisky is owned by companies outwith Scotland. The production is the only thing that happens in the country.

The profits go to the shareholders of companies like Diageo and Pernod-Ricard. Their headquarters are in London and Paris respectively.
That is a joke surely. So you believe that Scotch whisky that can only be made in Scotland and then exported through England and claimed as English exports means nothing? The very fact that it can only be made I Scotland with tens of thousands of jobs relying on it and tax revenue that would come to an independent Scotland is not relevant. How about jaguar Land rover, etc who are owned by overseas, mainly Indian companies, do they not count as their owners are indian? And how ironic that these iconic English brands are now owned by Indians. Please let me know of the wholly owned British companies who manufacture and pay all their taxes in the UK. Dyson, Land rover, Jaguar, Rolls Royce? Etc etc. How about all the old utilities companies? What about the railways, steel? Hardly a manufacturing company left that is uk owned. What aboutbthe banks? Quintessential British brands. Joke!!!!

[Mibbes Aye]

That is a joke surely. So you believe that Scotch whisky that can only be made in Scotland and then exported through England and claimed as English exports means nothing? The very fact that it can only be made I Scotland with tens of thousands of jobs relying on it and tax revenue that would come to an independent Scotland is not relevant. How about jaguar Land rover, etc who are owned by overseas, mainly Indian companies, do they not count as their owners are indian? And how ironic that these iconic English brands are now owned by Indians. Please let me know of the wholly owned British companies who manufacture and pay all their taxes in the UK. Dyson, Land rover, Jaguar, Rolls Royce? Etc etc. How about all the old utilities companies? What about the railways, steel? Hardly a manufacturing company left that is uk owned. What aboutbthe banks? Quintessential British brands. Joke!!!!

You never answered my question about theft. Anyway, you seem to be reacting a bit to my post which is simply just the truth. I have no idea what you mean about ‘English exports’, these are U.K. exports. That’s not making a political point either, that is just the reality of international trade.

The profits from Scotch whisky largely go to shareholders across the world. Because the majority of Scotch whisky is owned by companies outwith Scotland. What that has to do with Indians and Jaguars and railways I know not.

Just how much tax revenue do you think HMG makes from Scotch whisky exports?

[archie]

That is a joke surely. So you believe that Scotch whisky that can only be made in Scotland and then exported through England and claimed as English exports means nothing? The very fact that it can only be made I Scotland with tens of thousands of jobs relying on it and tax revenue that would come to an independent Scotland is not relevant. How about jaguar Land rover, etc who are owned by overseas, mainly Indian companies, do they not count as their owners are indian? And how ironic that these iconic English brands are now owned by Indians. Please let me know of the wholly owned British companies who manufacture and pay all their taxes in the UK. Dyson, Land rover, Jaguar, Rolls Royce? Etc etc. How about all the old utilities companies? What about the railways, steel? Hardly a manufacturing company left that is uk owned. What aboutbthe banks? Quintessential British brands. Joke!!!!

They aren't claimed as English exports. https://www.gov.scot/publications/about-export-statistics-scotland/pages/useful-information/

[Stairway 2 7]

Some difference from 4 months ago when the murrells ruled all

The Herald
@heraldscotland
·
EXCLUSIVE: Peter Murrell told to resign as SNP’s Chief Executive by the end of the day or face no confidence motion from the party’s NEC

[Stairway 2 7]

Worse than Ukraine but better than England though. If she had got in contact with Yousaf he would have asked where her dad was

https://news.stv.tv/north/refugee-schoolgirl-returned-to-ukraine-from-aberdeenshire-to-have-tooth-removed-after-nhs-wait

Refugee schoolgirl returned to Ukraine for dental care after NHS wait
Seven-year-old Lisa Martirosova was forced to return to Ukraine from Aberdeenshire as she urgently needed teeth removed

[cabbageandribs1875]

Daily ****** was wanting the s*it stirred, british unionist rag


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/337236416_950053922796591_7729724982078192656_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=MmkSy_9SeuYAX8GOEtN&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfBxLEa8dxHFutylmnNwamlkRSf9tgoym_NZlpMh_r0Z 5g&oe=641CC78D


https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/336740532_1363599671144813_208928915584786219_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=KPnp6hhteqYAX8-z1-l&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCyb8BQPvx4SlbHtufoRxUU3bk4at8q0XybIt60ks7L yg&oe=641E77B9

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/marinapurkiss/status/1638160366696910850?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/marinapurkiss/status/1638160366696910850?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Looking forward to that, will watch later

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/marinapurkiss/status/1638160366696910850?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk...with this further down the thread..


https://twitter.com/clarie_bee/status/1638168968811667458?t=g9L7Uz9ZTpWU9BhF84UquQ&s=19


The UK might be the 6th richest economy but its split, for some it's the 1st and others not even in the top 10.



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[He's here!]

Daily ****** was wanting the s*it stirred, british unionist rag


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/337236416_950053922796591_7729724982078192656_n.jp g?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=MmkSy_9SeuYAX8GOEtN&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfBxLEa8dxHFutylmnNwamlkRSf9tgoym_NZlpMh_r0Z 5g&oe=641CC78D


https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/336740532_1363599671144813_208928915584786219_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=KPnp6hhteqYAX8-z1-l&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCyb8BQPvx4SlbHtufoRxUU3bk4at8q0XybIt60ks7L yg&oe=641E77B9

She clearly doesn't understand the editor's role. He makes a fair point.

Bit harsh to then ditch her completely tho we're only seeing the parts of the exchange she's posted.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/skedeschi/status/1638217655587840004?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Horrific reading. This is a choice the UK makes. There is no sign of it changing.


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[Kato]

https://twitter.com/skedeschi/status/1638217655587840004?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Horrific reading. This is a choice the UK makes. There is no sign of it changing.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYeah, but that's horrible EU style prosperity. Where's your patriotism when pointing all those obvious discrepancies out?

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[Ozyhibby]

Yeah, but that's horrible EU style prosperity. Where's your patriotism when pointing all those obvious discrepancies out?

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So long as we can all wave union flags then I guess it’s all good.


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[archie]

So long as we can all wave union flags then I guess it’s all good.


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I think anyone who leads waving a flag is deeply suspect.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://twitter.com/skedeschi/status/1638217655587840004?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Horrific reading. This is a choice the UK makes. There is no sign of it changing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The 70% of salary as your pension is a bit misleading. It's around 70% of the average of what you've been paid throughout your working life. That said, nearly everyone is enrolled in some kind of private pension that is either fully paid by their employer or they match the payments put in by the employee to top up their pension.

[Stairway 2 7]

For all those that use the breaking up of the army as a point for not having independence, grow up it will obviously be one force its not hard

Hans Kristensen
@nukestrat
·
The heads of the air forces of Denmark, Finland, Sweden and Norway have signed an agreement to operate their combined 250 fighter jets as one joint force. https://aftenposten.no/norge/i/BWzxA7

[Ozyhibby]

For all those that use the breaking up of the army as a point for not having independence, grow up it will obviously be one force its not hard

Hans Kristensen
@nukestrat
·
The heads of the air forces of Denmark, Finland, Sweden and Norway have signed an agreement to operate their combined 250 fighter jets as one joint force. https://aftenposten.no/norge/i/BWzxA7

I agree, post Indy I can’t see the army breaking up. It’s in nobody’s interest. I also don’t see the nuclear bases moving away either. A deal will be done.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

welcome :agree: Creator of Grand Theft Auto video game joins SNP | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23411749.creator-grand-theft-auto-video-game-joins-snp/?fbclid=IwAR09PyxVMovkLc9xWKB6-WY3UaxxX9smiGWAkYgXhkdOGxIJehKbbf2PJ9w) to one of only three Scottish parties that want what's best for our country and not one of the English headquartered ones

THE creator of the video game phenomenon Grand Theft Auto has joined the SNP (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/snp/).

Mike Dailly, a Scottish video game designer best known for his work on Lemmings and the original prototype of Grand Theft Auto, announced that he had joined the party on Twitter.

He said: “Took the plunge.... I'm always saying they're the best for Scotland just now, with no one else even close.
“So time to put my money where my mouth is, and invest in Scotland's Future.”

[marinello59]

welcome :agree: Creator of Grand Theft Auto video game joins SNP | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23411749.creator-grand-theft-auto-video-game-joins-snp/?fbclid=IwAR09PyxVMovkLc9xWKB6-WY3UaxxX9smiGWAkYgXhkdOGxIJehKbbf2PJ9w) to one of only three Scottish parties that want what's best for our country and not one of the English headquartered ones

THE creator of the video game phenomenon Grand Theft Auto has joined the SNP (https://www.thenational.scot/politics/snp/).

Mike Dailly, a Scottish video game designer best known for his work on Lemmings and the original prototype of Grand Theft Auto, announced that he had joined the party on Twitter.

He said: “Took the plunge.... I'm always saying they're the best for Scotland just now, with no one else even close.
“So time to put my money where my mouth is, and invest in Scotland's Future.”



Drinks all round in the Vanilla Unicorn. :greengrin

[grunt]

The Tory strategy for preventing Scottish Independence ...

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1640320404882432003?s=20

[Stairway 2 7]

The Tory strategy for preventing Scottish Independence ...

https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1640320404882432003?s=20

Don't know why it's shocking as it's true, the same goes for voting Labour or tory. The problem for her is she probably hasn't been reading about how the younger generations for the first time ever aren't turning right. In a decade or so the majority of governments going forward will be Labour and independence is a certainty eventually

[cabbageandribs1875]

Greens vote unanimously to continue the Bute House Agreement

[grunt]

Don't know why it's shocking as it's true, the same goes for voting Labour or tory. It's shocking because it's hugely cynical. Being in politics used to be about helping people and running the country; now it's about getting power and holding onto it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Greens vote unanimously to continue the Bute House Agreement

Shocked I tell you. More gravy for all. They would be the half daft party of no consequence if they didn't pretend the want independence for a seat at the big table

[Paul1642]

Greens vote unanimously to continue the Bute House Agreement

They only get seats through SNP voters second votes. Why would they give that up.

[cabbageandribs1875]

56 new SNP members in Moray

14 new in Bathgate SNP



along with the other 5k+ members that have joined/re-joined


it's a start :) eyes on the prize and aw that

[Stairway 2 7]

It's shocking because it's hugely cynical. Being in politics used to be about helping people and running the country; now it's about getting power and holding onto it.

All politicians do what they can to get power and keep it, I am a bit shocked when they admit it mind

[cabbageandribs1875]

They only get seats through SNP voters second votes. Why would they give that up.


you're possibly correct but i'm not too sure about that, SNP insisted SNP 1&2 the last time,which i totally disagreed with, and it's the reason we have,for instance, jackie baillie still in, the Blues got her in, SNP don't play the system, far too nice sometimes :cb

[JimBHibees]

you're possibly correct but i'm not too sure about that, SNP insisted SNP 1&2 the last time,which i totally disagreed with, and it's the reason we have,for instance, jackie baillie still in, the Blues got her in, SNP don't play the system, far too nice sometimes :cb

Yep the tactical voting was quite apparent in certain better together seats.

[Paul1642]

you're possibly correct but i'm not too sure about that, SNP insisted SNP 1&2 the last time,which i totally disagreed with, and it's the reason we have,for instance, jackie baillie still in, the Blues got her in, SNP don't play the system, far too nice sometimes :cb

Greens received 1.29% (zero seats) in the constituency vote and 8.12% (8 seats) at the regional vote. Meanwhile the SNP vote drops by 7.36% between the two and it’s hard to imagine those votes are going to Labour / Tories.

It’s most likely a bit more complex than this but I think generally speaking greens seats come form SNP vote 2

[Ozyhibby]

you're possibly correct but i'm not too sure about that, SNP insisted SNP 1&2 the last time,which i totally disagreed with, and it's the reason we have,for instance, jackie baillie still in, the Blues got her in, SNP don't play the system, far too nice sometimes :cb

Jackie Bailie won her constituency if I remember correctly?


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[Ozyhibby]

SNP should only advocate for voting SNP. If people want to act tactically on their own then that’s up to them.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Jackie Bailie won her constituency if I remember correctly?


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with the help of blue votes, i should have instead said her winning was enabled by getting the help of Tory voters




Polling expert Prof Sir John Curtice said the result made it unlikely that the SNP would achieve an overall majority.


He added: "Her success looks as though it has been assisted by a squeeze on the third place Conservatives.

Polling expert Prof Sir John Curtice said the result made it unlikely that the SNP would achieve an overall majority.


He added: "Her success looks as though it has been assisted by a squeeze on the third place Conservatives.


"Unionist tactical voting seems to have played a key role in denying the SNP their majority in this election."












"Unionist tactical voting seems to have played a key role in denying the SNP their majority in this election."

[Ozyhibby]

with the help of blue votes, i should have instead said her winning was enabled by getting the help of Tory voters

Polling expert Prof Sir John Curtice said the result made it unlikely that the SNP would achieve an overall majority.


He added: "Her success looks as though it has been assisted by a squeeze on the third place Conservatives.

Polling expert Prof Sir John Curtice said the result made it unlikely that the SNP would achieve an overall majority.


He added: "Her success looks as though it has been assisted by a squeeze on the third place Conservatives.


"Unionist tactical voting seems to have played a key role in denying the SNP their majority in this election."












"Unionist tactical voting seems to have played a key role in denying the SNP their majority in this election."


I agree with that. Tactical voting did play a part in that. Labour and Tory voters in Scotland are more than happy to swap votes. Their parties tacitly accept it and they pull funding from certain seats to send the dog whistle for it to happen.
I just don’t think the SNP should be going down the same route but if you want it then the co-alition with the greens is it’s own dog whistle that giving second vote to greens is acceptable to them.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

European groups back Scotland's 'world-leading' deposit return scheme | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23413456.european-groups-back-scotlands-world-leading-deposit-return-scheme/?fbclid=IwAR0pAvqCrLYXBM1Up2Si4UF1qvC2wmuTuDDDPTtQ DeEQdB8y6PbdScV99_I)


There are fears that the UK Government could block the legislation under its post-Brexit Internal Market Act (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23316113.deposit-return-scheme-alister-jack-calls-holyrood-rethink-plan/), with Scottish Secretary Alister Jack calling for the plans to be dropped and a UK-wide scheme to be set up instead.
All candidates for first minister have suggested changing the plans in various ways, with Humza Yousaf calling for a pause for smaller firms, Kate Forbes saying she'd pause the whole scheme (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23347616.kate-forbes-pause-deposit-return-scheme-plans-made-first-minister/) and Ash Regan pledging to scrap it in its current form.


looks like Humza is the right choice :greengrin



But now several organisations across Europe have said the new legislation has inspired new systems – in Turkey, Romania and Greece in 2023; Ireland and Hungary in 2024; and Austria in 2025.


what a progressive country we are, if only their weren't British Unionists fighting against us

[Moulin Yarns]

Greens received 1.29% (zero seats) in the constituency vote and 8.12% (8 seats) at the regional vote. Meanwhile the SNP vote drops by 7.36% between the two and it’s hard to imagine those votes are going to Labour / Tories.

It’s most likely a bit more complex than this but I think generally speaking greens seats come form SNP vote 2

Maybe a case of green voters giving their first vote to snp as there wasn't a green candidate in the constituency seat?

[Mibbes Aye]

Maybe a case of green voters giving their first vote to snp as there wasn't a green candidate in the constituency seat?

Why would any Greens vote for a party that made the economic case for independence on the basis of extracting oil? Fossil fuel extraction is still a key plank for the SNP.

Surely no self-respecting Green with any sense of integrity would give up their core principles to help a party like that? Say it ain’t so!

[Moulin Yarns]

Why would any Greens vote for a party that made the economic case for independence on the basis of extracting oil? Fossil fuel extraction is still a key plank for the SNP.

Surely no self-respecting Green with any sense of integrity would give up their core principles to help a party like that? Say it ain’t so!

All I was saying was it wasn't necessarily the case that snp 1 vote then voted green, it's possible that it was the other way round.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/27/the-guardian-view-on-the-snps-new-leader-he-understands-brexit-wont-help-scotland?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1679955404

Decent assessment of the direction the SNP need to go in. Hopefully over next couple of days we start to see Yousaf put a decent cabinet together.


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[Santa Cruz]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/27/the-guardian-view-on-the-snps-new-leader-he-understands-brexit-wont-help-scotland?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1679955404

Decent assessment of the direction the SNP need to go in. Hopefully over next couple of days we start to see Yousaf put a decent cabinet together.


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Another take, noticed it below the article you linked.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/27/snp-humza-yousaf-leader-scotland-politics

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/anandmenon1/status/1640612440051163137?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A
[emoji23]


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[Stairway 2 7]

Sturgeon goes full subservient in her letter to Charlie
26614

[ErinGoBraghHFC]

Sturgeon goes full subservient in her letter to Charlie
26614

That’s boggin, especially the “obedient servant” part. Boke.


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[J-C]

Sturgeon goes full subservient in her letter to Charlie
26614

I think you'll find that's a standard way of writing a letter to a reigning monarch, some folk will see anything to have a dig.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think you'll find that's a standard way of writing a letter to a reigning monarch, some folk will see anything to have a dig.

It's not a dig but it is pathetic. What would happen if she didn't write it in a grovelling way?

[degenerated]

It's not a dig but it is pathetic. What would happen if she didn't write it in a grovelling way?

she'd be arrested and thrown in jail, probably.:greengrin

at the very least right wing rags would demand her head be cut off for treason and she be the target of lunatic unionist extermists.

[grunt]

It's not a dig but it is pathetic. What would happen if she didn't write it in a grovelling way?If she hadn't written it as she did she'd have been vilified in the press.

[Kato]

If she hadn't written it as she did she'd have been vilified in the press.But what new stuff would have happened?

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[Stairway 2 7]

If she hadn't written it as she did she'd have been vilified in the press.

I don't believe that. She could have wrote a formal letter and the only people that would disapprove are never going to vote for her or independence. I don't think she usually ruled in a way to pander to the right wing media either

[greenginger]

If she hadn't written it as she did she'd have been vilified in the press.


And cost her ,her chance of a seat in the House of Lords ! :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

And cost her ,her chance of a seat in the House of Lords ! :greengrin

The SNP have up until now never taken a seat in the Lords. Would be quite the development for her to break that.

[grunt]

I don't believe that. She could have wrote a formal letter and the only people that would disapprove are never going to vote for her or independence. I don't think she usually ruled in a way to pander to the right wing media either
Where have you been for the last 9 years?

[Mibbes Aye]

Sturgeon goes full subservient in her letter to Charlie
26614

It’s Swinney I feel for, in all this. At least Sturgeon had a forelock to tug :greengrin

[J-C]

It's not a dig but it is pathetic. What would happen if she didn't write it in a grovelling way?

It's not pathetic, it's protocol. Whether or not you agree in a monarchy, they still have to be addressed accordingly.

[Berwickhibby]

I think you'll find that's a standard way of writing a letter to a reigning monarch, some folk will see anything to have a dig.

I agree 100% it’s a centuries old tradition :agree:

[hibsbollah]

I agree 100% it’s a centuries old tradition :agree:

Tradition is sometimes ignored, Blair didn’t follow convention when corresponding with Charles (although that’s when he was a mere Prince of course, but there’s still convention there).

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/13/humble-and-obedient-how-ministers-defied-etiquette-in-replies-to-charles

[Ozyhibby]

Tradition is sometimes ignored, Blair didn’t follow convention when corresponding with Charles (although that’s when he was a mere Prince of course, but there’s still convention there).

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/may/13/humble-and-obedient-how-ministers-defied-etiquette-in-replies-to-charles

But he did put off his conversion to Catholicism until after he was PM.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/falling-energy-prices-mean-scotland-faces-higher-deficit-than-rest-of-uk-ifs-warns

Being in the UK is awesome.[emoji106]


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/falling-energy-prices-mean-scotland-faces-higher-deficit-than-rest-of-uk-ifs-warns

Being in the UK is awesome.[emoji106]


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In every day and every way it seems like we made the right choice by not putting everything on black when it was going to come up red.

Can you imagine the state of the economy if we had gone with Lyle Lanley, ehm I mean Alex Salmond, and his monorail, ehm I mean his Scottish nirvana funded by oil and gas?

[Ozyhibby]

In every day and every way it seems like we made the right choice by not putting everything on black when it was going to come up red.

Can you imagine the state of the economy if we had gone with Lyle Lanley, ehm I mean Alex Salmond, and his monorail, ehm I mean his Scottish nirvana funded by oil and gas?

You say that as if we have a great economy.


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[Mibbes Aye]

You say that as if we have a great economy.


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I don’t really. But you say that as if you want to read that.

[grunt]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/falling-energy-prices-mean-scotland-faces-higher-deficit-than-rest-of-uk-ifs-warns

Being in the UK is awesome.[emoji106]We'd best get out of the UK quick then!

[Ozyhibby]

I don’t really. But you say that as if you want to read that.

I want to read someone with ideas for change but I’m not hearing that from anyone just now.


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[Smartie]

In every day and every way it seems like we made the right choice by not putting everything on black when it was going to come up red.

Can you imagine the state of the economy if we had gone with Lyle Lanley, ehm I mean Alex Salmond, and his monorail, ehm I mean his Scottish nirvana funded by oil and gas?

I don't doubt that we'd have had a few, er, volatile and bumpy years immediately post independence but I'd expect we'd have been back on the right track by now, certainly with a far brighter future than the one we face as part of the UK.

As for Salmond's "plan" - it was nonsense, but if it was problematic enough we could have changed direction and adapted, the way any country has to when it is fully accountable for it's actions.

[Mibbes Aye]

I want to read someone with ideas for change but I’m not hearing that from anyone just now.


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I can understand that. The IFS (and others) are good at analysis but that just gets broken into rubble to load the slingshots of partisan politicking.

Change as a reaction happens eventually. The Tories would appear to have run out of road in England. There is usually a tipping point and it came goodness knows when, maybe Owen Paterson. What I mean is that even without opposition from Labour, the SNP etc, it would happen.

Driving change is less straightforward but still eminently doable. A good settled narrative of what and why, that people can coalesce around, is critical. For what it’s worth I don’t think Labour have established that narrative yet, I don’t think they will fully try until nearer a GE and I think that’s tactical. I would probably prefer it to have more strategic impact at this stage but maybe it is and I am not recognising it. I also think there isn’t a particularly cohesive narrative crying out to be recognised - it is too splintered - but if there was one to be found in UK politics it is about security- security of income and living costs, security of housing, security of care now and later in life, security of investment and opportunity for business, especially SMEs.

So I think Labour needs to show it has answers. So does the SNP. Independence as an end goal doesn’t cut it. All the shallow words about ‘well-being economies and being ‘socially progressive’ don’t cut it, not from a party that has had a firm hand on the crucial levers for 16 years.

[Ozyhibby]

I can understand that. The IFS (and others) are good at analysis but that just gets broken into rubble to load the slingshots of partisan politicking.

Change as a reaction happens eventually. The Tories would appear to have run out of road in England. There is usually a tipping point and it came goodness knows when, maybe Owen Paterson. What I mean is that even without opposition from Labour, the SNP etc, it would happen.

Driving change is less straightforward but still eminently doable. A good settled narrative of what and why, that people can coalesce around, is critical. For what it’s worth I don’t think Labour have established that narrative yet, I don’t think they will fully try until nearer a GE and I think that’s tactical. I would probably prefer it to have more strategic impact at this stage but maybe it is and I am not recognising it. I also think there isn’t a particularly cohesive narrative crying out to be recognised - it is too splintered - but if there was one to be found in UK politics it is about security- security of income and living costs, security of housing, security of care now and later in life, security of investment and opportunity for business, especially SMEs.

So I think Labour needs to show it has answers. So does the SNP. Independence as an end goal doesn’t cut it. All the shallow words about ‘well-being economies and being ‘socially progressive’ don’t cut it, not from a party that has had a firm hand on the crucial levers for 16 years.

I agree with that. We are not even at the stage of recognising what the problems are.
I’m not sure Starmer has what it takes to establish a narrative at all. I believe he wants power and he is working hard to get it. I have no idea why he wants it though. With Blair, there was a much more developed plan by now in the election cycle. Starmer will likely win from here but for what? Slightly less crap than the last guy?


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[Mibbes Aye]

I agree with that. We are not even at the stage of recognising what the problems are.
I’m not sure Starmer has what it takes to establish a narrative at all. I believe he wants power and he is working hard to get it. I have no idea why he wants it though. With Blair, there was a much more developed plan by now in the election cycle. Starmer will likely win from here but for what? Slightly less crap than the last guy?


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Part of it, for me, links to how we consume news and opinion and how we voice choice. The printed press was the central venue of political discourse in the mid-nineties. Round-the-clock TV news, the internet and then social media all overtook that.

That has changed how narratives are established. I would have to give it a lot more thought but inherently it feels like it has extended both ways from the mean. So, ideas can spread and take hold much, much more quickly. But underneath that there is more of a tectonic shift, towards identity politics, single-issue politics that is reflected in a cynicism or rejection of politics (and possibly provides oxygen to populism and those who harness it?).

I am hesitant because I suspect people said similar when TVs got into almost every home, or radios before that or mass print newspapers. Then again, maybe they did say that and it still holds true because the same things happen, regardless of the latest advance in tech or behaviours!

[Ozyhibby]

Part of it, for me, links to how we consume news and opinion and how we voice choice. The printed press was the central venue of political discourse in the mid-nineties. Round-the-clock TV news, the internet and then social media all overtook that.

That has changed how narratives are established. I would have to give it a lot more thought but inherently it feels like it has extended both ways from the mean. So, ideas can spread and take hold much, much more quickly. But underneath that there is more of a tectonic shift, towards identity politics, single-issue politics that is reflected in a cynicism or rejection of politics (and possibly provides oxygen to populism and those who harness it?).

I am hesitant because I suspect people said similar when TVs got into almost every home, or radios before that or mass print newspapers. Then again, maybe they did say that and it still holds true because the same things happen, regardless of the latest advance in tech or behaviours!

I’d say the UK is ripe for a populist leader to come along offering simple solutions to complex problems. We have already had one but he wasn’t competent. A competent one might not be far away.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230404/0303074fd9cdc814f569ee1421c92009.jpg
Yousaf boosts Indy.[emoji23]


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230404/0303074fd9cdc814f569ee1421c92009.jpg
Yousaf boosts Indy.[emoji23]


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Last two I've seen savanta and panalbase have yes -1. The one he is quoting does have yes +1 but 6 points behind no, although it also has another swing to Labour for Westminster with labour still 5 behind.

I think we'll have to give it a few months as snp should regain some bigger leads I'd think

[Stairway 2 7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230404/0303074fd9cdc814f569ee1421c92009.jpg
Yousaf boosts Indy.[emoji23]


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Actually the polling he's quoting puts Labour ahead at the general election due to seat concentration, so not a huge win?

https://mobile.twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1643284330809049088

Election Maps UK
@ElectionMapsUK
My Seat Model:

LAB: 25 (+24)
SNP: 22 (-26)
CON: 7 (+1)
LDM: 5 (+1)

Changes w/ GE2019

[Paul1642]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230404/0303074fd9cdc814f569ee1421c92009.jpg
Yousaf boosts Indy.[emoji23]


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Aye but it’ll be Labour who have to implement independence at this rate 😂

[Ozyhibby]

https://reformscotland.com/2023/04/fit-for-consumption-examining-the-case-for-devolution-of-vat-sales-taxes/

Among all the knockabout fun today this an interesting and serious contribution to the debate on Scotlands tax powers.


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://reformscotland.com/2023/04/fit-for-consumption-examining-the-case-for-devolution-of-vat-sales-taxes/

Among all the knockabout fun today this an interesting and serious contribution to the debate on Scotlands tax powers.


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Interesting read but I'm a little concerned about how the writer addresses the flaw in VAT, namely it is a regressive tax.

Using increased VAT take to reduce income tax is a crude mechanism for helping the working poor and doesn't help the not-working poor, it penalises them.

The author suggests that could be mitigated by transfer payments (in this case benefits) but that adds an extra step to the process and cuts to them lands solely on the recioients i.e. the poor.

Interesting though.

You know Jack McConnell is chair of their board?

[Ozyhibby]

Interesting read but I'm a little concerned about how the writer addresses the flaw in VAT, namely it is a regressive tax.

Using increased VAT take to reduce income tax is a crude mechanism for helping the working poor and doesn't help the not-working poor, it penalises them.

The author suggests that could be mitigated by transfer payments (in this case benefits) but that adds an extra step to the process and cuts to them lands solely on the recioients i.e. the poor.

Interesting though.

You know Jack McConnell is chair of their board?

Yes and it’s Chris deeren who wrote the foreword as well who writes almost daily about how awful the SNP are.
While full Indy is my preference I also would welcome a proper level of devolution. Do that and maybe Indy falls back in the polls but what’s happening now won’t change people’s desire for Indy. The current system doesn’t work no matter who is in charge up here or down there.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Yes and it’s Chris deeren who wrote the foreword as well who writes almost daily about how awful the SNP are.
While full Indy is my preference I also would welcome a proper level of devolution. Do that and maybe Indy falls back in the polls but what’s happening now won’t change people’s desire for Indy. The current system doesn’t work no matter who is in charge up here or down there.


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It would be interesting to see where a debate took the country - in relation to devolving things like VAT, but crucially what happened to it at Holyrood.

I suspect it wouldn't go down party lines, for a variety of reasons. Certainly the SNP would be split, Scottish Labour as well I suspect, the Tories maybe a bit. Unless there was heavy whipping going on.

I probably agree with lowering it, if possiblr, as there is a clear benefit to lower income households. But I can understand the arguments as to why leaving it or increasing it or changing it completely could be argued to deliver the same, just in a different way.

[Ozyhibby]

It would be interesting to see where a debate took the country - in relation to devolving things like VAT, but crucially what happened to it at Holyrood.

I suspect it wouldn't go down party lines, for a variety of reasons. Certainly the SNP would be split, Scottish Labour as well I suspect, the Tories maybe a bit. Unless there was heavy whipping going on.

I probably agree with lowering it, if possiblr, as there is a clear benefit to lower income households. But I can understand the arguments as to why leaving it or increasing it or changing it completely could be argued to deliver the same, just in a different way.

The real one that could change devolution is business taxes. That would allow different parts of the UK to set tax rates which attract high skilled jobs outside of London, which sucks in all the investment just now.
The country needs to start manufacturing more and I just can’t see London driving that. It would be far more likely to happen at a local level.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230406/14e51ce4a4bdde98b9a5ffe2c82881df.jpg


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230406/14e51ce4a4bdde98b9a5ffe2c82881df.jpg


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Their last poll was 54-46 I think. So no collapse in indy support yet in this or other polls. Party movement significant SNP->Lab and a little Tory->Lab I think but be v interesting to see if this eventually leads to a big jump for No as well or not.

[Ozyhibby]

Their last poll was 54-46 I think. So no collapse in indy support yet in this or other polls. Party movement significant SNP->Lab and a little Tory->Lab I think but be v interesting to see if this eventually leads to a big jump for No as well or not.

Or if the drop in SNP numbers is sustained.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Or if the drop in SNP numbers is sustained.


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Actually, the SNP doesn't drop as much in that poll's Westminster or Holyrood numbers as in the other polls. Although obviously this is before the big dig!

[Stairway 2 7]

All under one banners line up of speakers on the 6th of May in Glasgow. All 3 leadership contestants, although I thought Humza would be at coronation. Should be good though

https://mobile.twitter.com/AUOBNOW/status/1644733819088670721

[degenerated]

All under one banners line up of speakers on the 6th of May in Glasgow. All 3 leadership contestants, although I thought Humza would be at coronation. Should be good though

https://mobile.twitter.com/AUOBNOW/status/1644733819088670721Yousaf won't be there, he'll be in London. I think he has confirmed that now.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Yousaf/Gordon/Forbes all said they would be attending the independence rally during the hustings and not the poncy coronation for some crooked old man :boo hoo:Humza Yousaf will attend King Charles's coronation – not AUOB rally | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23444131.humza-yousaf-will-attend-king-charless-coronation---not-auob-rally/?ref=ebbn)

[cabbageandribs1875]

my goodness, they really are petrified of Scottish independence eh



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FtJUYrCX0AQCSs0?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Stairway 2 7]

"Similar to images Nazis used against Jewish people "

Come off it ha. Some cultists need to get a grip. They wouldn't care if it was boris or Charlie. It's all going a Charlie Hebdo

[cabbageandribs1875]

oh why oh why did we have to be such a wee small country :(



https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/336205741_780882540302161_8302857414848673285_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=ufgOXj4tP_UAX8JL2K-&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAp6xjm327DkkPQ2fMOhg1F42nlbIUtActMtOQDuGjH AA&oe=6438A7E2

[Skol]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/10/nicola-sturgeon-independence-westminster-snp-power

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65240749

Union dividend.


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[Skol]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65240749

Union dividend.


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Of course we don’t know if an independent Scotland would fare better or worse than the uk will.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Of course we don’t know if an independent Scotland would fare better or worse than the uk will.

Although this point gets weaker as the UK continues to get weaker.

[Skol]

Although this point gets weaker as the UK continues to get weaker.

I agree. But it does make me wonder why the snp don’t make the case if it is so compelling

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I agree. But it does make me wonder why the snp don’t make the case if it is so compelling

I don't believe the SNP hierarchy truly backs Scottish Independence these days. It's just a convenient narrative to solidify their power and to gain seats at Westminster and all of the nice privileges that come with that. Power corrupts and I've seen nothing from the SNP over recent times to suggest that they're any different.

[archie]

oh why oh why did we have to be such a wee small country :(



https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/336205741_780882540302161_8302857414848673285_n.jp g?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=ufgOXj4tP_UAX8JL2K-&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAp6xjm327DkkPQ2fMOhg1F42nlbIUtActMtOQDuGjH AA&oe=6438A7E2
I know you're excited by this. By GDP (a measure that has issues) the UK tanks 6 and Senegal 107. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

[Skol]

I don't believe the SNP hierarchy truly backs Scottish Independence these days. It's just a convenient narrative to solidify their power and to gain seats at Westminster and all of the nice privileges that come with that. Power corrupts and I've seen nothing from the SNP over recent times to suggest that they're any different.

Some common ground at last :-)

Do you mean the current or previous hierarchy of the snp. Or both?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Some common ground at last :-)

Do you mean the current or previous hierarchy of the snp. Or both?

The common ground was always there. I've never claimed to be on the good side of the SNP, despite claims from other members that I must somehow be pro-SNP or pro-Tory if i'm not falling in love with the newly formed Keir Starmer Party.

Although I've always had my reservations about Alex Salmond and his character, I never had any doubt over his commitment towards Scottish Independence. When Nicola Sturgeon first took over, I felt fairly confident that she would continue that same level of commitment. However as the years past under her leadership, I could sense a shift in the overall tone of the party. The focus shifted from looking at every available route towards independence to using the subject of independence to gain and protect seats at Westminster instead. It was no longer about independence, but solidifying their position of power within the very framework that they were supposed to be committed to getting Scotland away from.