Scottish Independence

[grunt]

Under a power-sharing deal with the Nats, the senior MSPs were to participate in summits “at least twice” annually, with insiders claiming it was assumed they’d be there “fairly regularly”.

"SNP did as they said they would do and abide by their agreement with the Greens".

Not quite such a scare story after all?

[Stairway 2 7]

Ex snp mp and nut job it seems, wants NS to stand down because she feels Scottish and British 😆

https://mobile.twitter.com/markthehibby/status/1563891126288924673

[grunt]

Here's a long read for a Sunday night, or any other night come to that.

https://ponti***.substack.com/p/scott-and-chapmans-censored-article?s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

You need to replace the 3 asterisks in the URL with the letters f, e and x in order for the link to work, soz.


Recently two UK government advisors -- Richard Mackenzie-Gray Scott and Geoffrey Chapman -- wrote an article on Scottish independence, saying that Scotland would do better as an independent country than the UK government likes to imply, and that Scotland could conceivably become independent without receiving the UK government's permission. The article was picked up by the Scottish press and then hastlily deleted from the LSE website where it was hosted.


Considering Scotland has all the necessary machinery in place to become an independent state, we see no obvious reasons why Scotland would not succeed economically if it were to do so, especially if achieved within the bounds of the law. Although our findings might be controversial to some, we hope to show that Scottish independence, while not inevitable, is far more nuanced a matter than many have claimed. There exist several options worth pursuing for the parties to this debate.

[Moulin Yarns]

Here's a long read for a Sunday night, or any other night come to that.

https://ponti***.substack.com/p/scott-and-chapmans-censored-article?s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

You need to replace the 3 asterisks in the URL with the letters f, e and x in order for the link to work, soz.

Thanks. Skimmed it, but it does seem reasonable.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/301187674_624532429040547_3521046314199437947_n.jp g?stp=cp1_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=TOziP9uK77YAX92m28Z&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-4uYCqP6xmyvPskVPVA1hPoWtR0X0NSo0VI_ZfE8IeDQ&oe=6310E565

]Nicola Sturgeon (https://www.facebook.com/NicolaSturgeonSNP?__cft__[0]=AZX8bA7BeJjkrjYyaK7u7WkmABjluqZ-B8RSqwy9au7BnhuShWDVAbt9iUZDX6juf_1wrUXhxmGkJz9TPO Zjmv3S0Jj86R-XY7HWM_W93Hak1yO8Z2jMrjhlf_s7jh6dKeRXYvzCWoV84awqL AbqTJxL7IVr6kHJnNKLD1xN_xwv3DloMdmauBLlv6S49dwMXDf xLtx0ThYVXOx88uLIpyCO&__tn__=-UC*F)
5h (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=624532455707211&set=a.489357395891385#) ·


Interesting interview with Andy Burnham in today’s Sunday Mail. I was a bit perplexed by this part of it tho - Andy and I met on Wednesday afternoon in St Andrew’s House and had a constructive discussion about a range of issues.

[Glory Lurker]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/301187674_624532429040547_3521046314199437947_n.jp g?stp=cp1_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=TOziP9uK77YAX92m28Z&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT-4uYCqP6xmyvPskVPVA1hPoWtR0X0NSo0VI_ZfE8IeDQ&oe=6310E565

]Nicola Sturgeon (https://www.facebook.com/NicolaSturgeonSNP?__cft__[0]=AZX8bA7BeJjkrjYyaK7u7WkmABjluqZ-B8RSqwy9au7BnhuShWDVAbt9iUZDX6juf_1wrUXhxmGkJz9TPO Zjmv3S0Jj86R-XY7HWM_W93Hak1yO8Z2jMrjhlf_s7jh6dKeRXYvzCWoV84awqL AbqTJxL7IVr6kHJnNKLD1xN_xwv3DloMdmauBLlv6S49dwMXDf xLtx0ThYVXOx88uLIpyCO&__tn__=-UC*F)
5h (https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=624532455707211&set=a.489357395891385#) ·


Interesting interview with Andy Burnham in today’s Sunday Mail. I was a bit perplexed by this part of it tho - Andy and I met on Wednesday afternoon in St Andrew’s House and had a constructive discussion about a range of issues.


Oh, but he's the saviour! The fairest I could be would be to suggest that he maybe failed to change an early-week press release to stop it being a lie by the time it was printed. He might have been busy as mayor of Manchester right enough.

[Stairway 2 7]

The rest of his column is spot on though, whilst not my favourite he would certainly be a breath of fresh air compared to Starmer. His talk of redistribution of wealth from the top means if he got close the papers would attack him with everything

[He's here!]

I'll no link the sun, not really big news I suppose

GREEN SNUB Nicola Sturgeon only invited Scottish Green ministers to TWO out of 43 Cabinet meetings

HOLYROOD’s Green ministers were only invited to two of Nicola Sturgeon’s 43 Cabinet meetings during their first year in a coalition Government, we can reveal.

Joint party leaders Patrick Harvie and Lorna Slater joined the top table to discuss Holyrood business on April 26 and again on August 16.

Under a power-sharing deal with the Nats, the senior MSPs were to participate in summits “at least twice” annually, with insiders claiming it was assumed they’d be there “fairly regularly”.

But documents reveal the First Minister stuck to the minimum requirements when getting the pair involved between September 1, 2021, to the middle of this month.

Sources claimed the Greens were being kept “at a distance” because of their anti-capitalist views - which some senior SNP figures fear will spook floating indy voters

The less seen of that pair the better for the SNP. Harvie is a thoroughly repellent individual and Slater is just glaikit, alarmingly so.

[archie]

Offered for comment https://web.archive.org/web/20220829160950/https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20800885.neil-mackays-big-read-scotlands-top-political-scientist-diagnoses-scottish-democracy-verdict-patient-serious-trouble/

[grunt]

Offered for comment https://web.archive.org/web/20220829160950/https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20800885.neil-mackays-big-read-scotlands-top-political-scientist-diagnoses-scottish-democracy-verdict-patient-serious-trouble/

The writing style reminds me of that Irish chap (Phil) who used to write about Rangers travails.

It's an opinion piece and I don't think much of his opinions. There's no argument there at all, just statements.

[lapsedhibee]

Offered for comment https://web.archive.org/web/20220829160950/https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/20800885.neil-mackays-big-read-scotlands-top-political-scientist-diagnoses-scottish-democracy-verdict-patient-serious-trouble/

Weird format. Could the prof not have written his own article, without the journo's assistance/interpretation?

Fairly flimsy, if any, case that the SNP and current Tory party are much the same.

[Ozyhibby]

I read that article the other day. It makes some good points about local democracy but doesn’t offer much in way of solutions. Lots of complaints about how Holyrood is set up and blames the SNP but the SNP didn’t set it up?


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[xyz23jc]

The rest of his column is spot on though, whilst not my favourite he would certainly be a breath of fresh air compared to Starmer. His talk of redistribution of wealth from the top means if he got close the papers would attack him with everything

Still same old Liebour I'm afraid!

[xyz23jc]

The less seen of that pair the better for the SNP. Harvie is a thoroughly repellent individual and Slater is just glaikit, alarmingly so.

WTAF...LOL! :greengrin:shocked:

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/can-lord-frost-save-the-union-

Is Frost the man for the job?


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[grunt]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/can-lord-frost-save-the-union-

Is Frost the man for the job?
I'm amazed that man has a job anywhere to be honest.
If the job is to upset the Scottish indy electorate then I guess he's the man.

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/can-lord-frost-save-the-union-

Is Frost the man for the job?


This bit of the column's true:

"I have no particular insight ..."

[ronaldo7]

Scotland on track for slow GDP growth, and population decline as part of the UK.


The status quo writ large.

[grunt]

Scotland on track for slow GDP growth, and population growth as part of the UK.


The status quo writ large.
Eh?

https://t.co/XXml0UJ6Ib


Scotland's population is projected to fall by nearly 900,000 over the next 50 years, the Scottish Government’s official forecaster has said, with “acute” demographic pressures hitting GDP growth.

[ronaldo7]

Eh?

https://t.co/XXml0UJ6Ib

😉

[Stairway 2 7]

Eh?

https://t.co/XXml0UJ6Ib

It says mainly down to aging population and low fertility rates and less to do with immigration. No sure how England's will hardly drop and ours down loads, have we got just a much older population. Its going to affect our economy in the future. There should be incentives for people to have kids, but most can't afford big families, childcare and feeding ect

[Callum_62]

It says mainly down to aging population and low fertility rates and less to do with immigration. No sure how England's will hardly drop and ours down loads, have we got just a much older population. Its going to affect our economy in the future. There should be incentives for people to have kids, but most can't afford big families, childcare and feeding ectHasnt that been one of the enduring arguments over a Scotland need to have a more. Hmm, 'open' policy to immigration?

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[Stairway 2 7]

Hasnt that been one of the enduring arguments over a Scotland need to have a more. Hmm, 'open' policy to immigration?

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk
Yes but seems its not the cause. We'll need to push for a huge number of immigrants and a ban on rubber Johnnies

The SFC said the “more acute ageing population in Scotland is primarily a result of a low number of births caused by a low fertility rate combined with an already older population
“A decrease in net migration also contributes to this change, but to a lesser extent.”

[Smartie]

If we don’t achieve independence (which I don’t expect us do) I certainly won’t be encouraging my daughter and any subsequent kids we have to stay here.

Unfortunately I lack the resource to guide her / them towards the sector in Scottish society that enjoys “prospects”.

She needs to get the f out and leave us to the mess we’ve created for ourselves, as I only see a future of frustration for her here.

[Jones28]

If we don’t achieve independence (which I don’t expect us do) I certainly won’t be encouraging my daughter and any subsequent kids we have to stay here.

Unfortunately I lack the resource to guide her / them towards the sector in Scottish society that enjoys “prospects”.

She needs to get the f out and leave us to the mess we’ve created for ourselves, as I only see a future of frustration for her here.

I’m already looking at making a move. Scotland is no longer the place I want it to be while attached at the hip to the UK. If we get independence, which we won’t, things will be different, but Canada or New Zealand are the two destinations of choice at the moment.

[Stairway 2 7]

If we don’t achieve independence (which I don’t expect us do) I certainly won’t be encouraging my daughter and any subsequent kids we have to stay here.

Unfortunately I lack the resource to guide her / them towards the sector in Scottish society that enjoys “prospects”.

She needs to get the f out and leave us to the mess we’ve created for ourselves, as I only see a future of frustration for her here.

I think there are good prospects in Scotland. Scotland has free university tuition. Scot gov are also pushing university to take a higher % of kids from less advantaged backgrounds each year, think its 10% just now. Means kids who go to the lowest 20% of schools, have parents on benefits, are in care, parents haven't been to university and more criteria need lower grades than the rest.

There is still plenty of opportunity in Scotland and I'm sure it will be in an independent one. Millions would literally risk death to have our opportunities

[grunt]

If we don’t achieve independence (which I don’t expect us do) ...


If we get independence, which we won’t ...

Blimey. It's depressing on here tonight.

[Jones28]

Blimey. It's depressing on here tonight.

I’m still scunnered by the last referendum. I’ll vote for it and encourage others to do the same but I’m in no way expecting us to actually get it through.

[James310]

Quite brutal takedown of Nicola Sturgeon.

https://twitter.com/shiny02/status/1564597244468281344?t=Yt7F5DNIcKr4IkNPdB14Bg&s=19

[grunt]

Quite brutal takedown of Nicola Sturgeon.
Deary me.

[ronaldo7]

Quite brutal takedown of Nicola Sturgeon.

https://twitter.com/shiny02/status/1564597244468281344?t=Yt7F5DNIcKr4IkNPdB14Bg&s=19

Ah, you're favourite, shiny02.

[lapsedhibee]

Quite brutal takedown of Nicola Sturgeon.

https://twitter.com/shiny02/status/1564597244468281344?t=Yt7F5DNIcKr4IkNPdB14Bg&s=19

Way over my head. Of the promised "Satire, parody and nonsense" I didn't detect any of either of the first two.

[Hibrandenburg]

Quite brutal takedown of Nicola Sturgeon.

https://twitter.com/shiny02/status/1564597244468281344?t=Yt7F5DNIcKr4IkNPdB14Bg&s=19

Wasn't funny, filled with half truths at best and filmed in the style of crazy trump YouTube nutcase. But you're right about it being brutal.

[degenerated]

Way over my head. Of the promised "Satire, parody and nonsense" I didn't detect any of either of the first two.Are we sure that wasn't a party political broadcast by Salmonds albanauts? :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Way over my head. Of the promised "Satire, parody and nonsense" I didn't detect any of either of the first two.

Are we sure it's not a satirical take on the impatient end of nationalism? :dunno:

Albeit a not exactly rib tickling one.

[JeMeSouviens]

If we don’t achieve independence (which I don’t expect us do) I certainly won’t be encouraging my daughter and any subsequent kids we have to stay here.

Unfortunately I lack the resource to guide her / them towards the sector in Scottish society that enjoys “prospects”.

She needs to get the f out and leave us to the mess we’ve created for ourselves, as I only see a future of frustration for her here.

Would recommend software if they're at all tech/logic oriented. Sector in Scotland is growing but it's also something you can take to the US/Canada/wherever or work anywhere in one of the explosion of remote opportunities that have sprung up in the last couple of years. I work for a Bay area startup now. Pretty much the dream job I never travelled to 20 years ago because of family etc.

[lapsedhibee]

Are we sure it's not a satirical take on the impatient end of nationalism? :dunno:


Are we sure there's now any difference between a take and a satirical take on politics in the UK? :dunno:

[JeMeSouviens]

Are we sure there's now any difference between a take and a satirical take on politics in the UK? :dunno:

Generally, it's only the satirists that agree to be interviewed.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm sure Scotland will have some sort of defence pact with the uk so this won't be affected. But new fighter jet the tempest looks like it will get the go ahead. Could be worth £800 million to Scottish economy including thousands of jobs. Leonardo is the big building next to morrisons crew toll

https://bylines.scot/news/scotland/defence-and-security/scotland-to-benefit-from-fighter-jet-development-as-tempest-cleared-for-take-off/

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm sure Scotland will have some sort of defence pact with the uk so this won't be affected. But new fighter jet the tempest looks like it will get the go ahead. Could be worth £800 million to Scottish economy including thousands of jobs. Leonardo is the big building next to morrisons crew toll

https://bylines.scot/news/scotland/defence-and-security/scotland-to-benefit-from-fighter-jet-development-as-tempest-cleared-for-take-off/

Formerly Selex, formerly BAe Systems, formerly GEC Marconi Avionics, formerly GEC Ferranti, formerly Ferranti.

I probably missed some. :greengrin

[grunt]

Formerly Selex, formerly BAe Systems, formerly GEC Marconi Avionics, formerly GEC Ferranti, formerly Ferranti.

I probably missed some. :greengrinSpent years there in the 80s when it was Ferranti.

[He's here!]

Formerly Selex, formerly BAe Systems, formerly GEC Marconi Avionics, formerly GEC Ferranti, formerly Ferranti.

I probably missed some. :greengrin

Was the original building knocked down? Drove past it for the first time in ages recently and IIRC it used to be a huge brickwork construction.

[JeMeSouviens]

Was the original building knocked down? Drove past it for the first time in ages recently and IIRC it used to be a huge brickwork construction.

I think the factory side (NE of roundabout) got knocked down but the office side (NW of roundabout) has at least some of the original brick building, maybe just the stairwell? I was there for a couple of years in the 90s, when it still had the dome on the top.

[StevieC]

I think the factory side (NE of roundabout) got knocked down but the office side (NW of roundabout) has at least some of the original brick building, maybe just the stairwell? I was there for a couple of years in the 90s, when it still had the dome on the top.

I was there late 80’s. I was part of the GEC takeover redundancies (GEC were pretty brutal with their asset stripping and redundancies). To be honest it was the best thing that ever happened to me, never looked back.

[grunt]

They’re running riot - how will you suppress them?

Listen to this and tell me again how we don't need Scottish Independence.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1565252781958725632?s=20&t=4zAJ7DDohXdCCwcNlaUP4A

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/kennyaberdeen/status/1565252451325906944?s=21&t=gg6TovCCRaQPM7NmESx3LA


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[McSwanky]

Quite brutal takedown of Nicola Sturgeon.

https://twitter.com/shiny02/status/1564597244468281344?t=Yt7F5DNIcKr4IkNPdB14Bg&s=19

Nice mood music in the background. :thumbsup:

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/kennyaberdeen/status/1565252451325906944?s=21&t=gg6TovCCRaQPM7NmESx3LA


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNormal.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/08/iceland-is-giving-away-free-p30-food-vouchers-to-pensioners-to-h/

England’s health secretary. These cuts will need to happen in Scotland as well now as our funding is directly linked to theirs.


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[Jack]

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2022/08/iceland-is-giving-away-free-p30-food-vouchers-to-pensioners-to-h/

England’s health secretary. These cuts will need to happen in Scotland as well now as our funding is directly linked to theirs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The link takes me to ...

MSE News

Iceland is giving away another 40,000 £30 food vouchers*to pensioners struggling with the cost of living*– here's how to get yours

[Ozyhibby]

The link takes me to ...

MSE News

Iceland is giving away another 40,000 £30 food vouchers*to pensioners struggling with the cost of living*– here's how to get yours

Apologies, although hope you can get some vouchers.[emoji23]

https://twitter.com/wesstreeting/status/1565262320577683456?s=21&t=gg6TovCCRaQPM7NmESx3LA


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[ronaldo7]

Listen to this and tell me again how we don't need Scottish Independence.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1565252781958725632?s=20&t=4zAJ7DDohXdCCwcNlaUP4A

Call Kaye, and the BBC Scotland team will be all over this.

[Hibrandenburg]

Having now watched all the Tory leadership debates it is crystal clear that their future policy towards Scotland will be to suppress the elected Scottish government rather than engage with them. Regardless of who wins, the Tories will continue to trample all over democracy, aided and abetted by their lapdog friends in positions of influence.

The bright new future they promise is there for everyone to see but not for everyone to have, whilst they and their rich beyond belief backers become even more unbelievably richer from stuffing their pockets with taxpayer's money and having the rules bent in their favour, us plebs will be left to fend for ourselves and face price hikes like most of us have never seen, government austerity in everything but name to squeeze the last drop out of normal workers and economic ruin for many. Time to head for the exit.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/iblogtoglasgow/status/1565606526336868352?s=21&t=DVHco1E-06s4CdQsiQigyw


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/iblogtoglasgow/status/1565606526336868352?s=21&t=DVHco1E-06s4CdQsiQigyw


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Gas might be wasteful but 90 odd % of houses and cars still use so renewables doesn't matter. We'll be laughing when we eventually go gasless, but it won't be soon and it'll be an expensive transition

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/lower-population-means-more-funding-for-scotland-if-it-stays-within-the-uk-says-influential-think-tank-3828679

Our population decline is now a good thing?


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[ronaldo7]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/lower-population-means-more-funding-for-scotland-if-it-stays-within-the-uk-says-influential-think-tank-3828679

Our population decline is now a good thing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I suppose all those hospitality venues looking for workers won't have to bother after they receive their gas and elec bills. They'll be shut.

We saw a marked difference in the highlands this year with shops/hotels/pubs all looking for staff.

Whatever happened to growing our economy? It seems this "Influential think tank" are happy for us to continue going cap in hand. I suppose that allows them to continue saying No.

[Jack]

I suppose all those hospitality venues looking for workers won't have to bother after they receive their gas and elec bills. They'll be shut.

We saw a marked difference in the highlands this year with shops/hotels/pubs all looking for staff.

Whatever happened to growing our economy? It seems this "Influential think tank" are happy for us to continue going cap in hand. I suppose that allows them to continue saying No.

All too common in Edinburgh to see signs in windows looking out for staff of all sorts.

My son, who works in hospitality, had about 5 offers pre Festivals from places he worked previously almost pleading with him to come back. He had a night off, one of them found out and asked him to do a single shift for just shy of £150!

[Ozyhibby]

I suppose all those hospitality venues looking for workers won't have to bother after they receive their gas and elec bills. They'll be shut.

We saw a marked difference in the highlands this year with shops/hotels/pubs all looking for staff.

Whatever happened to growing our economy? It seems this "Influential think tank" are happy for us to continue going cap in hand. I suppose that allows them to continue saying No.

Managed decline. It’s the unionist offer.


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/lower-population-means-more-funding-for-scotland-if-it-stays-within-the-uk-says-influential-think-tank-3828679

Our population decline is now a good thing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The "if" in "if funding arrangements for devolved budgets remain the same" doing a Herculean amount of heavy lifting there. Presumably Liz Smith of the Tories didn't read or understand what she was responding to? :rolleyes:

[lapsedhibee]

The "if" in "if funding arrangements for devolved budgets remain the same" doing a Herculean amount of heavy lifting there. Presumably Liz Smith of the Tories didn't read or understand what she was responding to? :rolleyes:

:agree: Herkewlou-anne (https://youtu.be/Cz0TF5tLQHw?t=254)

[Steven79]

Managed decline. It’s the unionist offer.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAnd many will claim this is proof that couldn't couldn't manage it we were Independent.

It's so frustrating.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[Jack]

I know some folk on here like to put forward Ireland as an example of how it might be in an independent Scotland and others say but this and that.

In the run up to the Irish budget it looks like their Chancellor has a somewhat easier job than the UK one, whoever that might be.

"The Exchequer recorded a surplus of €6.3 billion at the end of August, according to figures released by the Department of Finance this afternoon.

In the eight months to the end of August, tax revenue is just over 26%, or €10.4bn, ahead of where it was this time last year.

These Exchequer figures for August will give a timely boost to Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe when he delivers the Budget at the end of this month."

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0902/1320218-cso-economic-growth-figures/

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220903/46421a84e6d22294260ba8b4bdb5c1aa.jpg

https://news.stv.tv/politics/liz-truss-team-considers-legislation-to-wreck-indyref-campaign

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[Stairway 2 7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220903/46421a84e6d22294260ba8b4bdb5c1aa.jpg

https://news.stv.tv/politics/liz-truss-team-considers-legislation-to-wreck-indyref-campaign

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@HMSIncomparable
·
2h
Replying to
@electpoliticsuk
To add some context, if the next independence referendum has the same turn out as the last one (84.59%), then the pro-independence side would need to win just over 59% of the votes cast in order to have 50% of the total electorate

[Ozyhibby]

@HMSIncomparable
·
2h
Replying to
@electpoliticsuk
To add some context, if the next independence referendum has the same turn out as the last one (84.59%), then the pro-independence side would need to win just over 59% of the votes cast in order to have 50% of the total electorate

And unionists don’t even have to bother voting.


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[GlesgaeHibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220903/46421a84e6d22294260ba8b4bdb5c1aa.jpg

https://news.stv.tv/politics/liz-truss-team-considers-legislation-to-wreck-indyref-campaign

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So, they're terrified of Scotland leaving to the extent that they want to rig a future referendum. But at the same time we're told Scotland gets more from the UK than it contributes.
Makes perfect sense...

[Moulin Yarns]

@HMSIncomparable
·
2h
Replying to
@electpoliticsuk
To add some context, if the next independence referendum has the same turn out as the last one (84.59%), then the pro-independence side would need to win just over 59% of the votes cast in order to have 50% of the total electorate

😂😂😂 The magic 60%!!! Now we know who is behind the plan. 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

And unionists don’t even have to bother voting.


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1979 all over again 🙄

[Stairway 2 7]

Good stat especially as only a quarter of Scottish electorate voted for brexit

AdamBienkov
·
A reminder that if this rule had applied to the EU referendum, then the Brexit campaign would have been 7 million votes short

[Glory Lurker]

1979 all over again 🙄

Tories learning from Labour.

[Skol]

This really is a dreadful idea from truss and plays right into SNP hands giving them a free grievance

This Tory government really are awful and we need to get them out of office. I hope she goes for a snap GE

[Ozyhibby]

This really is a dreadful idea from truss and plays right into SNP hands giving them a free grievance

This Tory government really are awful and we need to get them out of office. I hope she goes for a snap GE

A ‘free grievance’ or legitimate grievance? Personally I think it should be a legitimate grievance for all Scots no matter which side of the debate you are on.


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[Skol]

Jings you have a free grievance and then manufacture another.

I said it’s a dreadful idea. And it is.

[Hibrandenburg]

This really is a dreadful idea from truss and plays right into SNP hands giving them a free grievance

This Tory government really are awful and we need to get them out of office. I hope she goes for a snap GE

Even she's not daft enough to do that with opinion polls the way they are just now.

[Stairway 2 7]

Apparently snp briefed mps to be ready for a snap election, but I can't see it at all. Why would she want to when she has two years plus.

She would surely toil just now. In two years inflation will be low and energy prices should return. Although She'll have had zip to do with it she will take credit. Could be spectacular how much damage she could do in the time in between, I reckon this could overtake team boris in self destruction

[Jack]

It is disappointing, even for the unionists, that the UK government keep putting obstacles in the way of a democratic vote rather than giving actual evidence of the benefits of being in the union.

[grunt]

In two years inflation will be low and energy prices should return. Hope you're right. Somehow doubt it.

[grunt]

It is disappointing, even for the unionists, that the UK government keep putting obstacles in the way of a democratic vote rather than giving actual evidence of the benefits of being in the union.
Who would want to be in a union with a bunch of far-right-wing fascists?

[Stairway 2 7]

Hope you're right. Somehow doubt it.

Most predictions have inflation dropping to about 2-3% in a few years, although like I said on another thread that doesn't mean prices dropping just rising slower.

Energy more complicated but everyone should be safely off Russian energy and the bubble will have gone. Only problem is can we expect the vile energy companies to drop prices when the wholesale price is lower. Maybe your right and they will just go bato taking the insane profits they so enjoy.

[degenerated]

Who would want to be in a union with a bunch of far-right-wing fascists?Around half the Scottish electorate, for some bizarre reason.

[Skol]

It is disappointing, even for the unionists, that the UK government keep putting obstacles in the way of a democratic vote rather than giving actual evidence of the benefits of being in the union.

I agree, these tories are so tone deaf the actions they think will improve the situation just make it worse.

They have made a complete Horlicks of everything and don’t seem to realise that they need to get back to the basics of good government and then move forward from there

Sadly this means more people just want away from them and feel independence is the answer. Whilst it does get away from the tories, it doesn’t mean all the problems are solved. Albeit I accept other opinions are allowed on that point.

[Skol]

Around half the Scottish electorate, for some bizarre reason.

And of course you know that’s not true. Forget the numbers but think it is less than 20% vote Tory and I bet a good number of those want rid of the current lot.

[Ozyhibby]

I agree, these tories are so tone deaf the actions they think will improve the situation just make it worse.

They have made a complete Horlicks of everything and don’t seem to realise that they need to get back to the basics of good government and then move forward from there

Sadly this means more people just want away from them and feel independence is the answer. Whilst it does get away from the tories, it doesn’t mean all the problems are solved. Albeit I accept other opinions are allowed on that point.

All our problems will never be solved no matter what. There are always new problems coming along.


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[heretoday]

Around half the Scottish electorate, for some bizarre reason.

It's about your savings, your pension, your property. No one wants to risk these things.
Better the devil.....

[JeMeSouviens]

It's about your savings, your pension, your property. No one wants to risk these things.
Better the devil.....

A very understandable sentiment but ...pretty much what people thought in the 70s when we had huge numbers of industrial jobs dependent on the British state and were going through the fallout from an oil price shock, high inflation, IMF bailouts etc. Going for less risk then brought us a decade of high unemployment and the Tories really putting the boot in. Yet if we had gone for it then we could've been joining the Norwegians in speed boat races. :boo hoo:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6d/36/39/6d3639e8132ff046650f7108c0e24b68--childhood-memories-prize.jpg

There will never be a perfect time.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's about your savings, your pension, your property. No one wants to risk these things.
Better the devil.....

None of which is under any threat, and might improve. Certainty is, they won't improve in the union.

[lapsedhibee]

Around half the Scottish electorate, for some bizarre reason.


It's about your savings, your pension, your property. No one wants to risk these things.
Better the devil.....

Well under half of Scots voters - I think it's more like a quarter - are taken in by three-word slogans, so that still leaves a chunk to be explained.

[Ozyhibby]

It's about your savings, your pension, your property. No one wants to risk these things.
Better the devil.....

Youngsters nowadays are not accumulating these things with their zero hours contracts while living in rented accommodation. As time goes by, the percentage worrying about losing these things will be falling.


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[Steven79]

Youngsters nowadays are not accumulating these things with their zero hours contracts while living in rented accommodation. As time goes by, the percentage worrying about losing these things will be falling.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkExactly!

When you have nothing to lose so why not as anything as to be better than the status quo.

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[grunt]

It's about your savings, your pension, your property. No one wants to risk these things.


None of which would be affected by Scottish Independence. They may even increase in value. You'll have to find a better scare story than this.

[JeMeSouviens]

None of which would be affected by Scottish Independence. They may even increase in value. You'll have to find a better scare story than this.

There are risks. If your debt is in one currency and your income in another, then there is obviously a risk in currency movement. That's why SNP policy is to retain £ in short term. The risks need careful management like requiring lenders to redenominate but we should be honest about their existence.

Otoh, to see the UK as some kind of stable safe haven going forward takes a pretty active imagination or powerful dose of nostalgia.

[archie]

There are risks. If your debt is in one currency and your income in another, then there is obviously a risk in currency movement. That's why SNP policy is to retain £ in short term. The risks need careful management like requiring lenders to redenominate but we should be honest about their existence.

Otoh, to see the UK as some kind of stable safe haven going forward takes a pretty active imagination or powerful dose of nostalgia.Full marks for honesty. It might be better and It might not. This endless sunny uplands stuff helps nobody. Surely addressing the risks makes for a stronger case?

[James310]

None of which would be affected by Scottish Independence. They may even increase in value. You'll have to find a better scare story than this.

Do you genuinely believe that Independence has zero impact on pensions, savings and mortgages? Even if the SNP themselves say there are risks you think they are wrong? For example:

https://archive.ph/rGrck


This is the SNPs own economic advisor warning of the risks.

"Wilson warned that the party had to be truthful in recognising that moving from the present arrangements to independence, as Brexit had shown, would not be “simple”. He said: “It is going to be hard work but it will ultimately be worth it.”
Speaking on the Scotland’s Choice podcast, Wilson added: “We want to manage for both the economic and political uncertainty that would come if we were going to move too quickly on currency. The risk would be that the currency would come into being and then quickly devalue, which would be most people in the markets’ expectation.

“That would have an effect on people’s income if they were waged in sterling, it would affect people’s pensions and mortgages. It could be upside, it could be downside; the key thing is it would be uncertain — and the thing we want to manage for is the risk of money leaving the country, capital flight which for a new nation is a major risk"

It's classic Brexit tactics to dismiss what others are saying and say it's all scare stories and everything will be fine. Fair enough argue for the upside but to suggest no impact is simply not true.

[DaveF]

Full marks for honesty. It might be better and It might not. This endless sunny uplands stuff helps nobody. Surely addressing the risks makes for a stronger case?

I only seemn to read this sunny ever after stuff from the no camp. I don't think I've ever seen a pro indy poster on here claim otherwise?

Is this the point where you now point to a few crackpots on twitter ....🙂

[grunt]

"It could be upside, it could be downside"

It's classic Brexit tactics to dismiss what others are saying and say it's all scare stories and everything will be fine. Fair enough argue for the upside but to suggest no impact is simply not true.Who knows?

I should perhaps have said it differently - it makes no difference to me. I no longer care about the economic fallout from independence, I just want to get away from the stinking hellhole that is Westminster Government led by the fascist Tory party.

I used to be sceptical of Brexiters saying they wanted away from the EU whatever the cost. Now I find myself making the same argument for leaving the UK. It's a funny old world.

[grunt]

I only seemn to read this sunny ever after stuff from the no camp. I think he was referring to my post earlier today. With hindsight I maybe painted too positive a picture of life after independence. The short answer is of course, no one really knows what will happen ...

[archie]

I only seemn to read this sunny ever after stuff from the no camp. I don't think I've ever seen a pro indy poster on here claim otherwise?

Is this the point where you now point to a few crackpots on twitter ....🙂Read Grunts post above!

[grunt]

Read Grunts post above!
Indeed.

[Ozyhibby]

Do you genuinely believe that Independence has zero impact on pensions, savings and mortgages? Even if the SNP themselves say there are risks you think they are wrong? For example:

https://archive.ph/rGrck


This is the SNPs own economic advisor warning of the risks.

"Wilson warned that the party had to be truthful in recognising that moving from the present arrangements to independence, as Brexit had shown, would not be “simple”. He said: “It is going to be hard work but it will ultimately be worth it.”
Speaking on the Scotland’s Choice podcast, Wilson added: “We want to manage for both the economic and political uncertainty that would come if we were going to move too quickly on currency. The risk would be that the currency would come into being and then quickly devalue, which would be most people in the markets’ expectation.

“That would have an effect on people’s income if they were waged in sterling, it would affect people’s pensions and mortgages. It could be upside, it could be downside; the key thing is it would be uncertain — and the thing we want to manage for is the risk of money leaving the country, capital flight which for a new nation is a major risk"

It's classic Brexit tactics to dismiss what others are saying and say it's all scare stories and everything will be fine. Fair enough argue for the upside but to suggest no impact is simply not true.

I agree that a slow transition on the currency is best to allow things like mortgages to be converted to the new currency. We should be in no rush for everything to happen on day one.
What I’m not so sure about above is the claim that a Scottish currency would devalue? Scotland is a net exporter (only part of the UK that is) and current high oil prices will be making this worse. Usually net exporting countries suffer from stronger currencies? That can have its own problems but I don’t see why we would be expecting a devaluation as we move away from Sterling?


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[James310]

I agree that a slow transition on the currency is best to allow things like mortgages to be converted to the new currency. We should be in no rush for everything to happen on day one.
What I’m not so sure about above is the claim that a Scottish currency would devalue? Scotland is a net exporter (only part of the UK that is) and current high oil prices will be making this worse. Usually net exporting countries suffer from stronger currencies? That can have its own problems but I don’t see why we would be expecting a devaluation as we move away from Sterling?


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Then you are into Sterlingisation for a period if time.

Richard Murphy is often quoted on here as an economic expert on Independence, he probably explains the ins and outs of what that means in terms of the questions you ask above.

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/11/14/there-is-one-issue-to-be-resolved-before-scotland-can-ever-consider-independence-and-that-is-what-currency-it-will-use-to-which-there-is-only-one-answer/


Of course do people believe him and believe it will be the economic disaster he is predicting, nobody knows hence the element or risk and uncertainty. Personally I wouldn't believe a word Richard Murphy says, but that's just me.

[Ozyhibby]

Then you are into Sterlingisation for a period if time.

Richard Murphy is often quoted on here as an economic expert on Independence, he probably explains the ins and outs of what that means in terms of the questions you ask above.

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/11/14/there-is-one-issue-to-be-resolved-before-scotland-can-ever-consider-independence-and-that-is-what-currency-it-will-use-to-which-there-is-only-one-answer/


Of course do people believe him and believe it will be the economic disaster he is predicting, nobody knows hence the element or risk and uncertainty. Personally I wouldn't believe a word Richard Murphy says, but that's just me.

I think we will have to have our own currency but I think that it should be pegged to sterling for a period of time.


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[archie]

I think we will have to have our own currency but I think that it should be pegged to sterling for a period of time.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWhy?

[Ozyhibby]

Why?

Because the transition is important and it should be smooth. It will take time for contracts, mortgages loans etc to be converted to the new Scottish currency.


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[archie]

Because the transition is important and it should be smooth. It will take time for contracts, mortgages loans etc to be converted to the new Scottish currency.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkBut that ceded control of key economic levers to th rUK.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7b22b270-2d2d-11ed-b64b-1375cd73757d?shareToken=259f54b27fe73ac3c53e28e3f6 cd9132

Unionists concentrating on rigging the vote rather than making the UK a place Scot’s might want to be part of, is what it will be their undoing.


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[Ozyhibby]

But that ceded control of key economic levers to th rUK.

In the short term. It is a transition process. Eventually when the time is right the currency would float like most others or maybe we would join the Euro.


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[archie]

In the short term. It is a transition process. Eventually when the time is right the currency would float like most others or maybe we would join the Euro.


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Pegging to another currency is highly risky and may need cash reserves. I think keeping the pound in 2014 was probably a short term tactical move.

[Ozyhibby]

Pegging to another currency is highly risky and may need cash reserves. I think keeping the pound in 2014 was probably a short term tactical move.

It’s also quite common and not that difficult to do. I would think it will take a while for there to be any divergence in the two countries economies.


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[archie]

It’s also quite common and not that difficult to do. I would think it will take a while for there to be any divergence in the two countries economies.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt collapsed within 60 days in the former Czechoslovakia due to capital flight from Slovakia.

[Jack]

It collapsed within 60 days in the former Czechoslovakia due to capital flight from Slovakia.

Are you concerned there will be a capital flight from the UK?

[archie]

Are you concerned there will be a capital flight from the UK?No, from Scotland.

[Stairway 2 7]

Good news Mercedes vellaba is a great politician and where scot labour should go, we'll done scot gov too. If only snp/greens hadn't voted against when earlier proposed

https://mobile.twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1567059218485678086
paulhutcheon
🔺NEW: Nicola Sturgeon expected to announce a rent freeze for tenants in her Programme for Government this afternoon.

It comes after a campaign by Labour MSP
@LabourMercedes

[Ozyhibby]

Good news Mercedes vellaba is a great politician and where scot labour should go, we'll done scot gov too. If only snp/greens hadn't voted against when earlier proposed

https://mobile.twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1567059218485678086
paulhutcheon
[emoji832]NEW: Nicola Sturgeon expected to announce a rent freeze for tenants in her Programme for Government this afternoon.

It comes after a campaign by Labour MSP
@LabourMercedes

Short term this is probably the right thing to do but if it stays long term then it will lead to shortages.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Short term this is probably the right thing to do but if it stays long term then it will lead to shortages.


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In which way?

[Ozyhibby]

In which way?

If the price is held below a market clearing point, people will stop providing more of it. There are about a million other factors in the housing market that can change but if this comes in on its own then eventually it will have adverse effects. It’s a policy that’s been tried in loads of countries and almost always fails.


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[Stairway 2 7]

If the price is held below a market clearing point, people will stop providing more of it. There are about a million other factors in the housing market that can change but if this comes in on its own then eventually it will have adverse effects. It’s a policy that’s been tried in loads of countries and almost always fails.


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Not sure when it's been set at an already outrageous rate. Edinburgh is toiling for houses with population set to hit 1 million, who cares if these money grabbers stop raking in profits. Should come in with a short term let limit also

[Ozyhibby]

Not sure when it's been set at an already outrageous rate. Edinburgh is toiling for houses with population set to hit 1 million, who cares if these money grabbers stop raking in profits. Should come in with a short term let limit also

But if developers stop building new houses and Edinburgh goes to 1 million, your solution involves people being homeless?


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[Stairway 2 7]

But if developers stop building new houses and Edinburgh goes to 1 million, your solution involves people being homeless?


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That's not happening in a million years it's getting capped at an obscene level, lots of profits there. Its a bit like saying a decent minimum wage means no jobs as companies will burst. It's just fear

[Ozyhibby]

That's not happening in a million years it's getting capped at an obscene level, lots of profits there. Its a bit like saying a decent minimum wage means no jobs as companies will burst. It's just fear

And if interest rates rise?


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[Stairway 2 7]

And if interest rates rise?


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They can base the rate on rises. Although it would be a huge surprise to everyone if they didn't fall significantly

[Ozyhibby]

https://fee.org/articles/berlin-s-disastrous-rent-control-law-gets-scrapped/amp

Berlin had rent control and it was hailed on here as something we should copy. Two years later and it’s already scrapped.

https://fee.org/articles/berlin-s-disastrous-rent-control-law-gets-scrapped/amp

It’s stops new investment in housing, the last thing we need.


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[Stairway 2 7]

https://fee.org/articles/berlin-s-disastrous-rent-control-law-gets-scrapped/amp

Berlin had rent control and it was hailed on here as something we should copy. Two years later and it’s already scrapped.

https://fee.org/articles/berlin-s-disastrous-rent-control-law-gets-scrapped/amp

It’s stops new investment in housing, the last thing we need.


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It was stopped after the centre and right pushed it in court. Edinburgh is already massively inflated do you honestly believe landlords wouldn't want to rent more properties at these prices. Expect big big push back in the centre and right wing media coming up. This is a capitalists nightmare, but the fact is prices aren't being dropped they are getting capped at obscene levels, levels that landlords and building companies love

[Ozyhibby]

It was stopped after the centre and right pushed it in court. Edinburgh is already massively inflated do you honestly believe landlords wouldn't want to rent more properties at these prices. Expect big big push back in the centre and right wing media coming up. This is a capitalists nightmare, but the fact is prices aren't being dropped they are getting capped at obscene levels, levels that landlords and building companies love

I did say I thought it was a good short term fix.[emoji106]


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[ronaldo7]

Good news Mercedes vellaba is a great politician and where scot labour should go, we'll done scot gov too. If only snp/greens hadn't voted against when earlier proposed

https://mobile.twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1567059218485678086
paulhutcheon
🔺NEW: Nicola Sturgeon expected to announce a rent freeze for tenants in her Programme for Government this afternoon.

It comes after a campaign by Labour MSP
@LabourMercedes

They voted against for a reason, certainly not just for the sake of it.

The “near-blanket approach” of Ms Villalba’s amendment, “coupled with the lack of opportunity for engagement”, means it is at high risk of a successful legal challenge by landlords.

It's nice to see they've worked those through, and it'll be passed now.

[Stairway 2 7]

They voted against for a reason, certainly not just for the sake of it.

The “near-blanket approach” of Ms Villalba’s amendment, “coupled with the lack of opportunity for engagement”, means it is at high risk of a successful legal challenge by landlords.

It's nice to see they've worked those through, and it'll be passed now.

Not just for the sake of it of course but because they are a neoliberal party, Ms villalba is far left of the lot of them

[marinello59]

Not just for the sake of it of course but because they are a neoliberal party, Ms villalba is far left of the lot of them

She’s an outstanding MSP. Well done to her for continuing to force the issue.

[ronaldo7]

Not just for the sake of it of course but because they are a neoliberal party, Ms villalba is far left of the lot of them

They had to tidy up the amendment. Ozy would have had them in court as fast as you could say freeze.

Ms Villalba is indeed a good MSP, ably supported by Pauline McNeil on the bill.

[Ozyhibby]

They had to tidy up the amendment. Ozy would have had them in court as fast as you could say freeze.

Ms Villalba is indeed a good MSP, ably supported by Pauline McNeil on the bill.

[emoji23]


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[Jack]

I would be far from disappointed if landlords felt they had sell off [part of] their portfolio. Same way as my heart bleeds for the loss of all the Airbnb.

For the most part I can see it freeing up the smaller, 1 and 2 bedroom properties, and the younger generations will be more able to afford their own homes. Local areas will have a more established population and maybe the areas currently blighted by high numbers of rentals and Airbnb will be a better place for everyone to live and grow up in.

[Stairway 2 7]

Thread and link to living rent campaign. Don't let these capitalist vultures and their minions trick us into thinking nothing can be done, there will be big push back in the coming months

https://mobile.twitter.com/istreasatuatha/status/1567067468157386752

[ronaldo7]

I suppose we should post up the green response as to why they voted as they did.

Ross Greer.

That amendment was not competent, would have breached ECHR and compromised a dozen other protections for tenants. This bill doesn't do those things. Sure you'll agree that's an important difference.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/snp-has-application-granted-to-intervene-in-supreme-court-indyref2-case

SG given permission to submit further information to the supreme courts.

[He's here!]

Good news Mercedes vellaba is a great politician and where scot labour should go, we'll done scot gov too. If only snp/greens hadn't voted against when earlier proposed

https://mobile.twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/1567059218485678086
paulhutcheon
🔺NEW: Nicola Sturgeon expected to announce a rent freeze for tenants in her Programme for Government this afternoon.

It comes after a campaign by Labour MSP
@LabourMercedes

A headline grabbing move to make the government look good from people who don't understand the market, according to landlords:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62820909

[Stairway 2 7]

A headline grabbing move to make the government look good from people who don't understand the market, according to landlords:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62820909

I'm stunned. In other news pig farmers say vegetarian food is crap

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm stunned. In other news pig farmers say vegetarian food is crap

That's a bit like the 2 vegans I heard saying sheep Shearing is cruel!! They did say that the celeriac steaks they had for dinner were tasty!

[Ozyhibby]

I'm stunned. In other news pig farmers say vegetarian food is crap

Both the pig farmers and the landlords are correct.[emoji6][emoji106]


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[Stairway 2 7]

Both the pig farmers and the landlords are correct.[emoji6][emoji106]


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9/10 Conservatives agree but that could be an undercount

[Jack]

9/10 Conservatives agree but that could be an undercount

The 1/10 is busy checking out the pig!

[Just_Jimmy]

A headline grabbing move to make the government look good from people who don't understand the market, according to landlords:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62820909His whole argument falls down when he suggests

1. That houses or flats are comondodies and not basic human rights.
2. Rentors exist to top up his and other landlords income or pensions.

I accept not all landlords are the same, some being people who rent for a short time for different reasons before selling, perhaps a couple moving in together for example. However the vast majority enter the role in order to profit from others often less fortunate.

There's a role for rental properties but it's not to make someone else rich.

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[Ozyhibby]

His whole argument falls down when he suggests

1. That houses or flats are comondodies and not basic human rights.
2. Rentors exist to top up his and other landlords income or pensions.

I accept not all landlords are the same, some being people who rent for a short time for different reasons before selling, perhaps a couple moving in together for example. However the vast majority enter the role in order to profit from others often less fortunate.

There's a role for rental properties but it's not to make someone else rich.

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Don’t all people who enter business do so to profit from others?


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[Stairway 2 7]

Don’t all people who enter business do so to profit from others?


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Yes that's why you need government controls so they can't take advantage.

This also isn't like a restaurant or a TV its a basic need to have shelter. It's horrible people have dozens of homes to live a life of luxury whilst others are permanently living in hostels with their family.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes that's why you need government controls so they can't take advantage.

This also isn't like a restaurant or a TV its a basic need to have shelter. It's horrible people have dozens of homes to live a life of luxury whilst others are permanently living in hostels with their family.

I agree, I think the government should be building a lot more homes. The private sector can’t build them quick enough. And I agree that shelter is a basic human need but so is food and we leave that completely to the private sector.
If the government would stop deliberately restricting the supply of housing then we might not be having this conversation. It is our restrictive planning system that is forcing prices ever higher.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I agree, I think the government should be building a lot more homes. The private sector can’t build them quick enough. And I agree that shelter is a basic human need but so is food and we leave that completely to the private sector.
If the government would stop deliberately restricting the supply of housing then we might not be having this conversation. It is our restrictive planning system that is forcing prices ever higher.


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Definitely. Nimbys are stopping the uk being what it should be more than anything, bar tories ect obviously

[Just_Jimmy]

Don’t all people who enter business do so to profit from others?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYes. Housing and peoples home shouldn't be "business". It's simple profiteering on someone less fortunate for a basic human need and right.

I can choose not to buy from or use many types of businesses. People can't (reasonably) choose not to rent if they cannot get a mortgage.

Not getting a mortgage isn't always about bad money management.

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[grunt]

There was some discussion on here recently about the claim of right, and how it wasn't relevant to the question of Scottish independence. I'm sorry I can't find where it was discussed.

Clearly someone in the UK Gov and the BBC thinks it is somewhat important, to the extent of deciding to edit out 3 seconds of King Charles accession speech where he acknowledges the Scottish claim of right in their news reports. It's there in the live transmission of the event, but strangely removed in the broadcast highlights.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1568758167101652993?s=20&t=R78yhhQaTbvKEZE0l1A8kA

[Kato]

There was some discussion on here recently about the claim of right, and how it wasn't relevant to the question of Scottish independence. I'm sorry I can't find where it was discussed.

Clearly someone in the UK Gov and the BBC thinks it is somewhat important, to the extent of deciding to edit out 3 seconds of King Charles accession speech where he acknowledges the Scottish claim of right in their news reports. It's there in the live transmission of the event, but strangely removed in the broadcast highlights.

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1568758167101652993?s=20&t=R78yhhQaTbvKEZE0l1A8kABecause at this really sad time it's very very important to trick people and control what they are hearing.

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[Skol]

Because at this really sad time it's very very important to trick people and control what they are hearing.

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Just more evidence that we are downtrodden Scots.

[grunt]

Just more evidence that we are downtrodden Scots.
It's more than that though, I think. It's evidence that the national broadcaster is working in league with the UK Gov to oppose Scotland's call for independence.

[WeeRussell]

Just more evidence that we are downtrodden Scots.

What do you think it is? Another coincidence or genuine editing error?

[JeMeSouviens]

What do you think it is? Another coincidence or genuine editing error?

It's not been edited out of the middle, the clip just cuts before it. Given the relentless pro-Union pr of the last few days, I doubt it's significant.

Anyway, people massively overestimate the Claim of Right. It was basically a somewhat hacked together device to provide a legal route round the awkward situation of Scotland having a Catholic monarch, James 7, that the bulk of the population (the presbyterians) wanted rid of and England had already booted out.

Nobody openly disputes that Scots have the right to independence if that's our will. It's how/when you test that will has arrived that's at issue.

[hibsbollah]

It's not been edited out of the middle, the clip just cuts before it. Given the relentless pro-Union pr of the last few days, I doubt it's significant.

Anyway, people massively overestimate the Claim of Right. It was basically a somewhat hacked together device to provide a legal route round the awkward situation of Scotland having a Catholic monarch, James 7, that the bulk of the population (the presbyterians) wanted rid of and England had already booted out.

Nobody openly disputes that Scots have the right to independence if that's our will. It's how/when you test that will has arrived that's at issue.

A number of key figures in the cabinet do dispute that. Rees Mogg and Braverman, most likely Truss herself.

[JeMeSouviens]

A number of key figures in the cabinet do dispute that. Rees Mogg and Braverman, most likely Truss herself.

Well, I hope they do, loudly and openly.

[grunt]

It's not been edited out of the middle, the clip just cuts before it. Given the relentless pro-Union pr of the last few days, I doubt it's significant.It was the last 3 seconds of his sentence. There was no reason to edit the speech there, in the middle of his sentence, other than to avoid reporting his words about the claim of right.

Anyway, people massively overestimate the Claim of Right. It was basically a somewhat hacked together device to provide a legal route round the awkward situation of Scotland having a Catholic monarch, James 7, that the bulk of the population (the presbyterians) wanted rid of and England had already booted out.I'm sure you're right. But if it is so insignificant, why go to the bother of editing out the 3 second reference to it in his speech?

Nobody openly disputes that Scots have the right to independence if that's our will. It's how/when you test that will has arrived that's at issue.I think that what is at issue is the selective reporting by our national broadcaster to minimise reporting of pro-independence stories and to favour pro-union stories.

[JeMeSouviens]

It was the last 3 seconds of his sentence. There was no reason to edit the speech there, in the middle of his sentence, other than to avoid reporting his words about the claim of right.
I'm sure you're right. But if it is so insignificant, why go to the bother of editing out the 3 second reference to it in his speech?

Yeah, I don't doubt they would edit it out for an even more pro-union slant, but I don't personally feel it would make any difference? In a way, the fact the whole show has set up camp in Edinburgh and spun it for all it's worth may backfire in the longer term. It does give a flavour of how a monarch could successfully reign in Scotland and rUK simultaneously despite them being different political jurisdictions.*



I think that what is at issue is the selective reporting by our national broadcaster to minimise reporting of pro-independence stories and to favour pro-union stories.

I must admit I've stopped thinking about that as an issue. I just take it for granted the Beeb has a massive inbuilt pro-Union bias now.

As a slight counterpoint to that, I think James Cook's doing quite well. He's objective within the limits he's allowed at least.



* avoidance of doubt - I want rid of them in either or both iScotland and the UK asap.

[JimBHibees]

Just more evidence that we are downtrodden Scots.

It's called propaganda

[Skol]

It's called propaganda

Or is it conspiracy theories lol.

I never watch the bbc as I find their output quite boring at times. Did other broadcasters do the same ?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1570832839318605824?s=46&t=VIZZiP_M8x2O3C2WuXe5qg

Interesting thread on the UK and the choices it makes.


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[Kato]

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1570832839318605824?s=46&t=VIZZiP_M8x2O3C2WuXe5qg

Interesting thread on the UK and the choices it makes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk5th largest economy. For some.

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[Hibrandenburg]

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1570832839318605824?s=46&t=VIZZiP_M8x2O3C2WuXe5qg

Interesting thread on the UK and the choices it makes.


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But but but trickle down economics.

[Ozyhibby]

But but but trickle down economics.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220917/dc96506af8410eb9280ca969924ad3f6.jpg
The poorest people in Ireland are 63% better off than the poorest in the UK. It’s a grim state of affairs. The union is very expensive for the Scots who can least afford it.


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[Zambernardi1875]

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1570832839318605824?s=46&t=VIZZiP_M8x2O3C2WuXe5qg

Interesting thread on the UK and the choices it makes.


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All John and poor people have to do is go visit speyside it looks fabulous from a helicopter.

[makaveli1875]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220917/dc96506af8410eb9280ca969924ad3f6.jpg
The poorest people in Ireland are 63% better off than the poorest in the UK. It’s a grim state of affairs. The union is very expensive for the Scots who can least afford it.


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Just for fun I thought I’d check out how much I’d get payed if I lived in Ireland . ****ing hell id double my wages . What’s the cost of living over there compared to here ?

[Ozyhibby]

Just for fun I thought I’d check out how much I’d get payed if I lived in Ireland . ****ing hell id double my wages . What’s the cost of living over there compared to here ?

https://twitter.com/peterjukes/status/1570918742296776704?s=46&t=u13I1jETJhj2nZMbV6CvWA

Poland will overtake us by 2030.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/leaskyht/status/1571473236960940032?s=46&t=l2ugCqhFs1v1yzbePjSKmg

Good thread by David Leask.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Surprised that no one has mentioned this poll in the sun today.


https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/22292141.support-independence-queens-death-poll-suggests/


Note the fact that it's not a proper poll with the number below the threshold for a competent poll.

I'm guessing the poll was done outside St Giles 😊

[Ozyhibby]

Surprised that no one has mentioned this poll in the sun today.


https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/22292141.support-independence-queens-death-poll-suggests/


Note the fact that it's not a proper poll with the number below the threshold for a competent poll.

I'm guessing the poll was done outside St Giles [emoji4]

And it’s done by a company that hasn’t polled in Scotland before.[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

Surprised that no one has mentioned this poll in the sun today.


https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/22292141.support-independence-queens-death-poll-suggests/


Note the fact that it's not a proper poll with the number below the threshold for a competent poll.

I'm guessing the poll was done outside St Giles [emoji4]

https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2022/09/breaking-sun-quite-simply-lied-about.html?m=1

Critique of the Sun’s reporting of the poll here.


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[James310]

https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2022/09/breaking-sun-quite-simply-lied-about.html?m=1

Critique of the Sun’s reporting of the poll here.


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I never knew James Kelly who runs that site joined Alba and is a member of their National Executive.

[Ozyhibby]

I never knew James Kelly who runs that site joined Alba and is a member of their National Executive.

Yes, he hates the SNP.


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[Moulin Yarns]

September 19th, a day of mourning for many Scots.

[Ozyhibby]

https://whatscotlandthinks.org/2022/09/how-the-constitutional-question-has-become-more-divisive/

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/union-has-become-decidedly-less-popular-in-scotland-report-finds-3851928

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/support-for-scottish-independence-has-doubled-in-ten-years_uk_632b0139e4b07198f014c4e7

Slowly but surely, support for Indy continues to grow.


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://whatscotlandthinks.org/2022/09/how-the-constitutional-question-has-become-more-divisive/

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/union-has-become-decidedly-less-popular-in-scotland-report-finds-3851928

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/support-for-scottish-independence-has-doubled-in-ten-years_uk_632b0139e4b07198f014c4e7

Slowly but surely, support for Indy continues to grow.


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The full report has some interesting features

https://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-report/british-social-attitudes-39/introduction.aspx



Shows the difference between Scotland and England on a number of important issues.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/phantompower14/status/1572909449194487809?s=46&t=uVXggk3CunPB7Fdw1dAdIA

How they see us. Hasn’t noticed that Edinburgh is run by a Labour/Tory coalition yet either.


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[Kato]

https://twitter.com/phantompower14/status/1572909449194487809?s=46&t=uVXggk3CunPB7Fdw1dAdIA

How they see us. Hasn’t noticed that Edinburgh is run by a Labour/Tory coalition yet either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkhttps://i.ibb.co/9TSPzG6/92538858d1ee50eaa430c1c236946273-creepy-dolls-marionette.jpg

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[JimBHibees]

https://twitter.com/phantompower14/status/1572909449194487809?s=46&t=uVXggk3CunPB7Fdw1dAdIA

How they see us. Hasn’t noticed that Edinburgh is run by a Labour/Tory coalition yet either.


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Starts off by quoting P G Wodehouse ffs

Does that pass for conducting parliamentary business

[Jack]

When we get independence we might have to take Doncaster as part of the deal!

I suppose it would be a wee bit like Gibraltar or something 🤔

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62994899

What is your fondest memory of Doncaster?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/report-undermines-labour-case-for-rewriting-uk-wide-constitutional-structure-claim-snp-3853287

No appetite in England for Labour’s proposed (well they might get around to it one day) constitutional changes.


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[Keith_M]

When we get independence we might have to take Doncaster as part of the deal!

I suppose it would be a wee bit like Gibraltar or something ��

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62994899

What is your fondest memory of Doncaster?



Jeez, I was really worried when I first read that as I thought you meant Neil Doncaster.

:rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/report-undermines-labour-case-for-rewriting-uk-wide-constitutional-structure-claim-snp-3853287

No appetite in England for Labour’s proposed (well they might get around to it one day) constitutional changes.


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I take it back, looks like it’s on the way. Doesn’t appear to have anything in it that will appeal to Scots who are contemplating Indy though.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/22/labour-considering-abolishing-house-of-lords-if-it-wins-next-election-leaked-report-reveals?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


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[Moulin Yarns]

I take it back, looks like it’s on the way. Doesn’t appear to have anything in it that will appeal to Scots who are contemplating Indy though.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/22/labour-considering-abolishing-house-of-lords-if-it-wins-next-election-leaked-report-reveals?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


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Keir Hardie proposed in 1887 the abolition of the House of Lords. Never happened. Forgive my cynicism but it is not what you say in opposition, it is what you do in Government. Was Gordon Brown not the PM? He could have abolished the Lords then

[JimBHibees]

Keir Hardie proposed in 1887 the abolition of the House of Lords. Never happened. Forgive my cynicism but it is not what you say in opposition, it is what you do in Government. Was Gordon Brown not the PM? He could have abolished the Lords then

Did Blair then Brown not promise this? Altough see Tony created 203 new lords in his time in power.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/neilmackay/status/1573295649772261378?s=46&t=iHvxp9nwNdlRM4O_y-f5ng


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[Paul1642]

If today budget doesn’t sway the polls towards yes then nothing ever will.

Sturgeon needs to set out a blueprint to answer the currently unanswered questions.

I’ve said in the Tory thread that today is the first day I can definitively say I will vote for independence. The new Uk government are a car crash on levels I never thought I would see. Bring back Boris.

[makaveli1875]

I can’t believe I’m saying it but now Is the time . If it wasn’t for Putin’s behavior Truss would be a shoe in for **** of the year 2022

[Steven79]

If today budget doesn’t sway the polls towards yes then nothing ever will.

Sturgeon needs to set out a blueprint to answer the currently unanswered questions.

I’ve said in the Tory thread that today is the first day I can definitively say I will vote for independence. The new Uk government are a car crash on levels I never thought I would see. Bring back Boris.Good to have you onboard.

I think many will be feeling like you just now.

Only one way the UK is going under the Tories and at least it Scotland votes in a **** government we can vote them out while right now we have to put up with whatever England votes for.

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[Skol]

If today budget doesn’t sway the polls towards yes then nothing ever will.

Sturgeon needs to set out a blueprint to answer the currently unanswered questions.

I’ve said in the Tory thread that today is the first day I can definitively say I will vote for independence. The new Uk government are a car crash on levels I never thought I would see. Bring back Boris.

Yesterdays budget is awful and now gives sturgeon a dilemma. Up until now whilst she had a slightly different policy on tax, it wasn’t much out of line. Come April 23 it will be. Does she go down a totally different route to the uk or does she change. Keeping things as they are might show us what could happen in an independent Scotland.

Will it drive higher tax payers south. Possibly but in small numbers. Will it deter higher tax payers from moving north. Much more likely.

I do think the uk government have gambled and are most likely to lose the bet. That’s for m3 still doesn’t make the case for independence, but makes it even more urgent that sturgeon sets out in detail her independence plan so we can weigh it up and make a decisin

[Stairway 2 7]

Yesterdays budget is awful and now gives sturgeon a dilemma. Up until now whilst she had a slightly different policy on tax, it wasn’t much out of line. Come April 23 it will be. Does she go down a totally different route to the uk or does she change. Keeping things as they are might show us what could happen in an independent Scotland.

Will it drive higher tax payers south. Possibly but in small numbers. Will it deter higher tax payers from moving north. Much more likely.

I do think the uk government have gambled and are most likely to lose the bet. That’s for m3 still doesn’t make the case for independence, but makes it even more urgent that sturgeon sets out in detail her independence plan so we can weigh it up and make a decisin

Puts alot of pressure to perform on Scots gov over the next few years. They will have a decent bit more money to spend than uk gov, so will need to be a noticeable difference in standard of living for the more tax people are paying. The blaming everything on Westminster won't work.

I'm pretty confident it can be achieved

[Moulin Yarns]

Puts alot of pressure to perform on Scots gov over the next few years. They will have a decent bit more money to spend than uk gov, so will need to be a noticeable difference in standard of living for the more tax people are paying. The blaming everything on Westminster won't work.

I'm pretty confident it can be achieved

Scottish government budget = £56.6bn.


Uk government budget = £1,087bn

Like to explain how the Scottish government will have more money to spend than the UK government?

[Stairway 2 7]

Scottish government budget = £56.6bn.


Uk government budget = £1,087bn

Like to explain how the Scottish government will have more money to spend than the UK government?

Come on 😆 🤣

You know we do better with barnett. Obviously some things devolved but we will get a significant bit more from income tax for the devolved areas per head. I'm sure you know this tbh.

They will need results and some are hard to quantity for people who they don't apply. Most of them amazing like free university and childcare for 3yos. We will get £600 million in the next year to spend that English will be using on tax cuts.

[Moulin Yarns]

Come on 😆 🤣

You know we do better with barnett. Obviously some things devolved but we will get a significant bit more from income tax for the devolved areas per head. I'm sure you know this tbh.

They will need results and some are hard to quantity for people who they don't apply. Most of them amazing like free university and childcare for 3yos. We will get £600 million in the next year to spend that English will be using on tax cuts.

I know all that, but you categorically said that the Scottish Government would have more money than the UK government, I'm just wondering how you came to that conclusion when the Scottish Government budget is around 5% of the UK government budget?


". They will have a decent bit more money to spend than uk gov"

[Just Alf]

I know all that, but you categorically said that the Scottish Government would have more money than the UK government, I'm just wondering how you came to that conclusion when the Scottish Government budget is around 5% of the UK government budget?


". They will have a decent bit more money to spend than uk gov""Comparatively" ... I got the intention of the post and popped that word in automatically :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

"Comparatively" ... I got the intention of the post and popped that word in automatically :greengrin

That's fine, but here is a thought, scottish population is around 8.2% of the UK, but the budget is 5.2% of the UK.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's fine, but here is a thought, scottish population is around 8.2% of the UK, but the budget is 5.2% of the UK.

It's so obvious that I know you know, but your trying to gain your pedantic badge.

The rest of Scotland will be expecting more from paying more tax. I believe we get it but some might not, they just want cash in their pocket. The media are going to go full pelt on how much more tax we pay

[Stairway 2 7]

That's fine, but here is a thought, scottish population is around 8.2% of the UK, but the budget is 5.2% of the UK.

Do you genuinely not understand that some things are devolved and some not hence the proportion, or do you just wake up up and say who can we argue with today

[James310]

That's fine, but here is a thought, scottish population is around 8.2% of the UK, but the budget is 5.2% of the UK.

Are you being deliberately misleading or do you genuinely not understand how it works?

From the SNPs own figures spending per person in Scotland was £17,793 compared to rest of the UK £15,830.

[Moulin Yarns]

Are you being deliberately misleading or do you genuinely not understand how it works?

From the SNPs own figures spending per person in Scotland was £17,793 compared to rest of the UK £15,830.

Scottish government budget = £56.6bn.


Uk government budget = £1,087bn

[James310]

Scottish government budget = £56.6bn.


Uk government budget = £1,087bn

Sigh...the £56.6BN is the budget for devolved powers so pays for things like Health and Education. Total Scottish Government spending in 2021 was £97.5BN.
So the difference paid for things like pensions and benefits like Universal Credit and other reserved functions.

"Scotland's spending
Table S.5 below shows estimates of public spending for Scotland. Expenditure fell from £98.5 billion in 2020-21 to £97.5 billion in 2021-22. This is the largest recorded fall in public expenditure, although it follows a record increase in 2020-21 in response to the coronavirus pandemic, and spending remains at historically high levels"

A full breakdown is here. I am sure you will agree paying pensions and benefits are important and need to be paid.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-gers-2021-22/pages/5/

It's pretty basic stuff in understanding the funding settlement. As per the SNPs own figures Scotland has higher spending than the rest of the UK.

In 2020/2021 Scotland accounted for 9.1% of UK public spending, around 7.9% of UK revenues and 8.1% of UK population in 2020/21. S

As I say I am unsure if you are deliberately misleading or you don't understand.

[Zambernardi1875]

Sigh...the £56.6BN is the budget for devolved powers so pays for things like Health and Education. Total Scottish Government spending in 2021 was £97.5BN.
So the difference paid for things like pensions and benefits like Universal Credit and other reserved functions.

"Scotland's spending
Table S.5 below shows estimates of public spending for Scotland. Expenditure fell from £98.5 billion in 2020-21 to £97.5 billion in 2021-22. This is the largest recorded fall in public expenditure, although it follows a record increase in 2020-21 in response to the coronavirus pandemic, and spending remains at historically high levels"

A full breakdown is here.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-gers-2021-22/pages/5/

It's pretty basic stuff in understanding the funding settlement. As per the SNPs own figures Scotland has higher spending than the rest of the UK.

In 2020/2021 Scotland accounted for 9.1% of UK public spending, around 7.9% of UK revenues and 8.1% of UK population in 2020/21. S

As I say I am unsure if you are deliberately misleading or you don't understand.

Why doesn’t England have its own separate parliament ?

[James310]

Why doesn’t England have its own separate parliament ?

I don't know, why do you think it doesn't?

[Zambernardi1875]

I don't know, why do you think it doesn't?

Why would it not? Every other nation in the uk does. Seems weird right

[Moulin Yarns]

Why would it not? Every other nation in the uk does. Seems weird right

It's almost like they can't do without the other nations? 🤔

[cabbageandribs1875]

England couldn't survive without Scotland's resources, all they will have is Morris Dancing, Pork Markets, raw sewage and a Royal Family to pay for

London will become the Money Laundering capital of the world, maybe it already is ? parts of the North East along with Cornwall will want to form a union with Scotland :greengrin

[degenerated]

I don't know, why do you think it doesn't?It already has one that acts in it's best interests, do I win £5

[James310]

It already has one that acts in it's best interests, do I win £5

Speak to the people of Liverpool or Newcastle and see if they agree.

[Zambernardi1875]

It's almost like they can't do without the other nations? 🤔

It’s as if he’s being deliberately misleading or genuinely doesn’t understand how it works? 😉

[James310]

It’s as if he’s being deliberately misleading or genuinely doesn’t understand how it works? 😉

I am not sure what you mean, you asked me a question. How would I be misleading? In what way am I trying to mislead people or what am I not understanding about your question? I answered it saying I don't know.

[Stairway 2 7]

The fact is there is going to be a large amount of extra tax being paid in Scotland. I'm personally glad about that and don't want it dropped. But there will be a lot of people wanting a noticeable difference and that will be hard to prove. We can be children about it or admit that it will be an issue for scot gov to defend.

We'll have 630 million to use in Scotland as our share. England will use it on tax cuts I hope we use it on the most in need

[Zambernardi1875]

I am not sure what you mean, you asked me a question. How would I be misleading? In what way am I trying to mislead people or what am I not understanding about your question? I answered it saying I don't know.

It should be something they had though yes?

Wonder if Staiway 2-7 knew? Seems to of avoided the question also

[James310]

It should be something they had though yes?

Wonder if Staiway 2-7 knew? Seems to of avoided the question also

Not sure I am following you in terms of misleading or not understanding, but many large cities in England have mayors who have powers over things like transport and policing etc so maybe they feel that's enough, you would need to ask them though.

[ACLeith]

England couldn't survive without Scotland's resources, all they will have is Morris Dancing, Pork Markets, raw sewage and a Royal Family to pay for

London will become the Money Laundering capital of the world, maybe it already is ? parts of the North East along with Cornwall will want to form a union with Scotland :greengrin

All the younger ones in my English (Liverpool area) branch of our family asked me recently that WHEN we are independent can they join us? I of course said yes and they were serious!

[cabbageandribs1875]

All the younger ones in my English (Liverpool area) branch of our family asked me recently that WHEN we are independent can they join us? I of course said yes and they were serious!



i did actually include Liverpool when i first typed that post, then thought Mmmm will i/won't i :greengrin i think most are aware Liverpudlians have a serious dislike for Tories, unfortunately for them i think they could be stuck with them in Government

[degenerated]

Speak to the people of Liverpool or Newcastle and see if they agree.The people of Newcastle were asked and resoundingly rejected a devolved assembly.

[James310]

The people of Newcastle were asked and resoundingly rejected a devolved assembly.

Well you have your answer then. You probably need to ask them these questions though.

[degenerated]

Well you have your answer then. You probably need to ask them these questions though.Not sure that I do.

England gets the government it chooses each and every election. And one of the 2 areas you suggest aren't happy with Westminster delivered an emphatic yes when asked if they were happy about the status quo.

[Stairway 2 7]

It should be something they had though yes?

Wonder if Staiway 2-7 knew? Seems to of avoided the question also

What are you actually on about. I want independence, I'm not really fussed what the English think, perhaps ask them

[Hibrandenburg]

The fact is there is going to be a large amount of extra tax being paid in Scotland. I'm personally glad about that and don't want it dropped. But there will be a lot of people wanting a noticeable difference and that will be hard to prove. We can be children about it or admit that it will be an issue for scot gov to defend.

We'll have 630 million to use in Scotland as our share. England will use it on tax cuts I hope we use it on the most in need

I fully expect public services, health services and education to be better than in England due to the extra injection of cash, why shouldn't they be as they already are.

[Stairway 2 7]

Not sure that I do.

England gets the government it chooses each and every election. And one of the 2 areas you suggest aren't happy with Westminster delivered an emphatic yes when asked if they were happy about the status quo.

Scotland said yes to the status quo as well unfortunately

[Stairway 2 7]

I fully expect public services, health services and education to be better than in England due to the extra injection of cash, why shouldn't they be as they already are.

So do I. I'm saying the full force of the media will be going on about how much more tax we pay. Tories will be too, I'm not sure how Labour will play it as it puts them in a sticky situation.

It will need to be clearly defined how much better it is, its a huge injection of money so I'm sure we'll be able to put it to good use. I hope they don't bow to pressure and lower taxes.

[Zambernardi1875]

What are you actually on about. I want independence, I'm not really fussed what the English think, perhaps ask them

I’m asking why England doesn’t have its own separate parliament we could scrutinise ?

[CropleyWasGod]

I’m asking why England doesn’t have its own separate parliament we could scrutinise ?

There doesn't seem to be an appetite for it, either from politicians or the electorate.

[Stairway 2 7]

I’m asking why England doesn’t have its own separate parliament we could scrutinise ?

Not really sure why your asking me, i don't particularly care tbh. I just want independence in the next few years to leave them to it. Unfortunately for some mystifying reason a majority of Scots were happy with the status quo last time.

[Paul1642]

The fact is there is going to be a large amount of extra tax being paid in Scotland. I'm personally glad about that and don't want it dropped. But there will be a lot of people wanting a noticeable difference and that will be hard to prove. We can be children about it or admit that it will be an issue for scot gov to defend.

We'll have 630 million to use in Scotland as our share. England will use it on tax cuts I hope we use it on the most in need

Im completely on board with this. We don’t the tax cuts that the English are getting. We need our public services to receive a cash injection to help make up from years of underfunding and society’s most vulnerable to be helped though the tough times that are coming.

Unfortunately 630 million is a drop in the water compared to what’s needed.

I still think an extra 1% of tax should be added to the higher bands but it’s never going to happen now.

[StevieC]

Yesterdays budget is awful and now gives sturgeon a dilemma. Up until now whilst she had a slightly different policy on tax, it wasn’t much out of line. Come April 23 it will be. Does she go down a totally different route to the uk or does she change. Keeping things as they are might show us what could happen in an independent Scotland.

Will it drive higher tax payers south. Possibly but in small numbers. Will it deter higher tax payers from moving north. Much more likely.

I do think the uk government have gambled and are most likely to lose the bet. That’s for m3 still doesn’t make the case for independence, but makes it even more urgent that sturgeon sets out in detail her independence plan so we can weigh it up and make a decisin

Two queries ..

I thought tax ratios were set by the UK, and Scotland could only change the tax ratios by a couple of percent?

Doesn’t all tax go down to UK treasury? So it wouldn’t be beneficial to Scotland to tax higher and send the extra to UK treasury?

[Moulin Yarns]

Two queries ..

I thought tax ratios were set by the UK, and Scotland could only change the tax ratios by a couple of percent?

Doesn’t all tax go down to UK treasury? So it wouldn’t be beneficial to Scotland to tax higher and send the extra to UK treasury?

Absolutely!!

Scottish Income Tax is not a fully devolved tax. HMRC is responsible for the collection and management of Scottish Income Tax, which includes the identification of Scottish taxpayers. The Scottish Income Tax collected by HMRC is paid to the Scottish Government

[Stairway 2 7]

Two queries ..

I thought tax ratios were set by the UK, and Scotland could only change the tax ratios by a couple of percent?

Doesn’t all tax go down to UK treasury? So it wouldn’t be beneficial to Scotland to tax higher and send the extra to UK treasury?

No since 2017 we've been able to change the rate.

Income tax generated in Scotland goes to scot gov not to UK treasury. We wouldn't already tax higher if we didn't get a benefit but UK did, that would be madness. In the time we have taxed higher we've generated £900 million more than uk. Unfortunately we've not generated as much as UK in income tax per head so block grants went down but we've still benefited.

https://digitalpublications.parliament.scot/ResearchBriefings/Report/2021/8/12/a6cb9582-0b7e-11ea-9528-000d3a23af40

The Fiscal Framework is designed so that the amount deducted from the Scottish block grant should be the same as the amount raised in NSND income tax revenues if the Scottish Government keeps the same income tax policy as in rUK and income tax receipts per head grow at the same rate as in rUK. However, policy changes and/or differing economic performance will affect the final impact on the Scottish budget. In practice, over the last five years, changes in Scottish income tax policy have generated additional revenues for the Scottish Government, but these have been partially offset by less favourable growth in income tax per head in Scotland. The net result is that some of the additional spending power that would be implied by the Scottish Government's income tax policy choices has been offset by differential economic performance.

[StevieC]

Yesterdays budget is awful and now gives sturgeon a dilemma. Up until now whilst she had a slightly different policy on tax, it wasn’t much out of line. Come April 23 it will be. Does she go down a totally different route to the uk or does she change. Keeping things as they are might show us what could happen in an independent Scotland.

Will it drive higher tax payers south. Possibly but in small numbers. Will it deter higher tax payers from moving north. Much more likely.

I do think the uk government have gambled and are most likely to lose the bet. That’s for m3 still doesn’t make the case for independence, but makes it even more urgent that sturgeon sets out in detail her independence plan so we can weigh it up and make a decisin

Two queries ..

I thought tax ratios were set by the UK, and Scotland could only change the tax ratios by a couple of percent?

Doesn’t all tax go down to UK treasury? So it wouldn’t be beneficial to Scotland to tax higher and send the extra to UK treasury?

[Jack]

No since 2017 we've been able to change the rate.

Income tax generated in Scotland goes to scot gov not to UK treasury. We wouldn't already tax higher if we didn't get a benefit but UK did, that would be madness. In the time we have taxed higher we've generated £900 million more than uk. Unfortunately we've not generated as much as UK in income tax per head so block grants went down but we've still benefited.

https://digitalpublications.parliament.scot/ResearchBriefings/Report/2021/8/12/a6cb9582-0b7e-11ea-9528-000d3a23af40

The Fiscal Framework is designed so that the amount deducted from the Scottish block grant should be the same as the amount raised in NSND income tax revenues if the Scottish Government keeps the same income tax policy as in rUK and income tax receipts per head grow at the same rate as in rUK. However, policy changes and/or differing economic performance will affect the final impact on the Scottish budget. In practice, over the last five years, changes in Scottish income tax policy have generated additional revenues for the Scottish Government, but these have been partially offset by less favourable growth in income tax per head in Scotland. The net result is that some of the additional spending power that would be implied by the Scottish Government's income tax policy choices has been offset by differential economic performance.

What happens to people working in Scotland whose employers (HQ or payroll systems) are based in England or elsewhere?

How much do HMRC take for administration?

[Ozyhibby]

What happens to people working in Scotland whose employers (HQ or payroll systems) are based in England or elsewhere?

How much do HMRC take for administration?

If you live in Scotland you pay tax in Scotland.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Pish has started as expected

https://mobile.twitter.com/SundayTimesSco/status/1573730838180683777

SundayTimesSco
🔺EXCLUSIVE Three former economic advisers to the Scottish government have warned that the country faces a flight of high earners and wealth creators to England unless the SNP matches Conservative tax cut plans

Former Scot Govt adviser Prof John Kay points to problem with bidding a cheery wave to any high earners contemplating leaving Scotland for lower taxes. While they account for just 0.6% of the population, they account for around 16% of Scottish income tax

[Ozyhibby]

Pish has started as expected

https://mobile.twitter.com/SundayTimesSco/status/1573730838180683777

SundayTimesSco
[emoji832]EXCLUSIVE Three former economic advisers to the Scottish government have warned that the country faces a flight of high earners and wealth creators to England unless the SNP matches Conservative tax cut plans

Former Scot Govt adviser Prof John Kay points to problem with bidding a cheery wave to any high earners contemplating leaving Scotland for lower taxes. While they account for just 0.6% of the population, they account for around 16% of Scottish income tax

So people would incur all the expense of relocating from Scotland to England only to experience the disappointment of a a Labour govt in 18 months time? [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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[Moulin Yarns]

So people would incur all the expense of relocating from Scotland to England only to experience the disappointment of a a Labour govt in 18 months time? [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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That's what I was thinking. Frying pan and fire comes to mind!

What cost to relocate???

[James310]

So people would incur all the expense of relocating from Scotland to England only to experience the disappointment of a a Labour govt in 18 months time? [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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So the SNP by not making any changes are kind of relying on Labour winning the next GE and reversing the change, something you seem to think will happen as well.

A Labour victory would hit support for Scottish Independence I reckon, it seems reasonable people are more likely to give Labour some time and leeway to see what changes they can make.

The SNP and Tory's thrive of each other, kind of like the old firm they hate each other but need each other.

Also factor in the so called de facto referendum at the next GE and if the SNP/Greens/Alba get less than 50% they have basically 'lost' IndyRef2 if it's a de facto referendum as Nicola Sturgeon says it is. Another defeat could then also hit support for Independence as that would be two losses in 10 years.

Not sure this is going to end well for supporters of Scottish Independence, but time will tell.

[Ozyhibby]

So the SNP by not making any changes are kind of relying on Labour winning the next GE and reversing the change, something you seem to think will happen as well.

A Labour victory would hit support for Scottish Independence I reckon, it seems reasonable people are more likely to give Labour some time and leeway to see what changes they can make.

The SNP and Tory's thrive of each other, kind of like the old firm they hate each other but need each other.

Also factor in the so called de facto referendum at the next GE and if the SNP/Greens/Alba get less than 50% they have basically 'lost' IndyRef2 if it's a de facto referendum as Nicola Sturgeon says it is. Another defeat could then also hit support for Independence as that would be two losses in 10 years.

Not sure this is going to end well for supporters of Scottish Independence, but time will tell.

Yes your right. I’m not sure why I haven’t seen it before? All Scotland has been waiting for is a Labour victory. Not sure why I’ve missed it with all the polling evidence. [emoji23]

Let’s hope another country can deliver it for us. [emoji849]


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[James310]

Yes your right. I’m not sure why I haven’t seen it before? All Scotland has been waiting for is a Labour victory. Not sure why I’ve missed it with all the polling evidence. [emoji23]

Let’s hope another country can deliver it for us. [emoji849]


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You don't think it's reasonable that people will want to see what a Labour government in Westminster will do? We have never had a Labour government in Westminster since the rise of Scottish Nationalism in 2014. And factor in this de facto referendum that could well be lost and who knows what will happen.

[Andy Bee]

You don't think it's reasonable that people will want to see what a Labour government in Westminster will do? We have never had a Labour government in Westminster since the rise of Scottish Nationalism in 2014. And factor in this de facto referendum that could well be lost and who knows what will happen.


https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexofBrown/status/1574059007341481985/photo/1

Seems Scottish people cannae wait for a Labour Government. Overwhelming sites ere.

[Hibrandenburg]

You don't think it's reasonable that people will want to see what a Labour government in Westminster will do? We have never had a Labour government in Westminster since the rise of Scottish Nationalism in 2014. And factor in this de facto referendum that could well be lost and who knows what will happen.

No, because people have wizened up to the fact that a Labour government is only ever a stop gap between Tory governments. The international socialist movement in the UK is all but dead and the new manifestation of UK Labour has more in common with the Tories than it does with the socialist movement.

[Paul1642]

No, because people have wizened up to the fact that a Labour government is only ever a stop gap between Tory governments. The international socialist movement in the UK is all but dead and the new manifestation of UK Labour has more in common with the Tories than it does with the socialist movement.

Independence isn’t about socialism for most.

[Hibrandenburg]

Independence isn’t about socialism for most.

I'd disagree. Our neighbours to the south have been brainwashed into thinking socialist values = communism, whereas is Scotland we can still distinguish between the two and there is a yearning for a government that values looking after the basics in a society, things like food on our children's tables, heating our pensioners homes and fair pay for a hard day's work.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'd disagree. Our neighbours to the south have been brainwashed into thinking socialist values = communism, whereas is Scotland we can still distinguish between the two and there is a yearning for a government that values looking after the basics in a society, things like food on our children's tables, heating our pensioners homes and fair pay for a hard day's work.

Snp aren't socialist they are very centre as they have to be. Starmers probably a bit to the right, Corbyn was miles to the left

It's madness to say that a Conservative win in the next election isn't good for independence. The numbers might not be huge but hundreds of thousands of Scots vote for Labour in every election. I think it's them that need one more than any. Snp voters are going to vote for Indy and tories the opposite. This referendum will weigh heavily on the Scottish Labour voters

[James310]

I'd disagree. Our neighbours to the south have been brainwashed into thinking socialist values = communism, whereas is Scotland we can still distinguish between the two and there is a yearning for a government that values looking after the basics in a society, things like food on our children's tables, heating our pensioners homes and fair pay for a hard day's work.

So why did over 10M people, nearly twice the population of Scotland, vote for Jeremy Corbyns Labour then a few years ago? Just a blip in the brainwashing programme?

[Ozyhibby]

So why did over 10M people, nearly twice the population of Scotland, vote for Jeremy Corbyns Labour then a few years ago? Just a blip in the brainwashing programme?

How did the Corbyn government get on?[emoji849]


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[Stairway 2 7]

How did the Corbyn government get on?[emoji849]


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They didn't win. But that's far away from the simplistic take that all of England are right wing, when a large proportion voted for the most left wing choice from a major party in decades.

[danhibees1875]

So people would incur all the expense of relocating from Scotland to England only to experience the disappointment of a a Labour govt in 18 months time? [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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:agree:

Seems unrealistic that people will just pick up and leave, but equally that's probably too simplistic a way to look at it. Population movement is more fluid than that and at any given point there's a number of people looking to move anyway, either around Scotland or into Scotland - they are the ones that would potentially be deterred.

People will incur selling costs regardless, but the buying costs (LBTT) are higher to stay in (or move to) Scotland, and the ongoing taxes are higher, and more likely to see that disparity increase than decrease.

Obviously, that's still too simplistic as it's only looking at the tax side of the equation and not comparing the benefits, etc.

[James310]

How did the Corbyn government get on?[emoji849]


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They obviously lost, but the claim all England vote for far right parties is obviously baseless when over 10M voted for Labour and Jeremy Corbyn to be PM.

[degenerated]

They obviously lost, but the claim all England vote for far right parties is obviously baseless when over 10M voted for Labour and Jeremy Corbyn to be PM.Not sure anyone did claim that?

It is, however, factually correct to state that England doesn't elect left of centre governments any more.

[ronaldo7]

So the SNP by not making any changes are kind of relying on Labour winning the next GE and reversing the change, something you seem to think will happen as well.

A Labour victory would hit support for Scottish Independence I reckon, it seems reasonable people are more likely to give Labour some time and leeway to see what changes they can make.

The SNP and Tory's thrive of each other, kind of like the old firm they hate each other but need each other.

Also factor in the so called de facto referendum at the next GE and if the SNP/Greens/Alba get less than 50% they have basically 'lost' IndyRef2 if it's a de facto referendum as Nicola Sturgeon says it is. Another defeat could then also hit support for Independence as that would be two losses in 10 years.

Not sure this is going to end well for supporters of Scottish Independence, but time will tell.

If theirs one thing we don't need, it's the Tories. Tired right wing tropes linked to the old firm who aren't really a thing anymore due to the Rangers being a new entity are so last decade.

Glad you've now moved to 50% as a win. 👍

[marinello59]

Not sure anyone did claim that?

It is, however, factually correct to state that England doesn't elect left of centre governments any more.

I would argue that Scotland doesn’t either. :greengrin

[Jack]

With regards to people moving one way or the other I think most people moving at that pay level, internally within their organisation or to a new one will have their moving costs covered.

Companies in Scotland could also calculate salaries so that net income was comparable with England, or indeed elsewhere.

[danhibees1875]

With regards to people moving one way or the other I think most people moving at that pay level, internally within their organisation or to a new one will have their moving costs covered.

Companies in Scotland could also calculate salaries so that net income was comparable with England, or indeed elsewhere.

You wouldn't necessarily have to move job either if you didn't want to.

Berwick to Edinburgh on the train is 40 minutes. Not a bad commute if you live and work close enough to either station. Another expense to factor in to the decision though!