Scottish Independence

[marinello59]

I think that Salmond would be very circumspect about having done this. It would go down like a lead balloon if word got out that he had personally arranged the outcome of a game. As such, I don't think he'd shout this from the rafters, but Lucky if we do win tomorrow I think you will just have to accept that it is down to the divine intervention of my Glorious Leader, who I am humbled to serve, and vote Yes! :greengrin :thumbsup:

Who knew he had a soft spot for Killie? :grr:

[Beefster]

Imagine the hay that would be made if it was revealed that the grass roots No campaign (No Borders) was actually a London Financier. #followthemoney

No Borders a grass roots campaign:rolleyes:

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/05/bbc-propaganda-hits-new-all-time-low/

Way to miss / prove my point.

[ronaldo7]

Way to miss / prove my point.

Couldnae help masel.

The stuff the Weir's are taking through the media for being pro independence is way over the top, and a tad crass. They were pro indy before coming into the money, and shock horror decided to support their team after getting the cash. They've been up front about the donations unlike some.:aok:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/this-that-and-the-other/

[allmodcons]

Who knew he had a soft spot for Killie? :grr:

Not true. He's just a fat jambo who hates Hibs (apparently).
Wouldn't have mattered who we played. Just anybody but Hibs :wink:.

PS - Enjoyed your quote about voting in the Euro Elections. Made me laugh.

[ronaldo7]

The fear factor part 1...Scary:greengrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgkCXONOrg8

[lucky]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2625863/Lottery-pairs-2-5m-Scots-Couple-provided-80-funding-yes-campaign.html

[Saorsa]

The fear factor part 1...Scary:greengrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgkCXONOrg8:paranoid:


:greengrin

[ronaldo7]

A couple of final pushes and we'll see the yes vote over the line. Mon the Tories in Englandshire.:greengrin

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/polls/272322-scots-likely-to-vote-yes-if-they-think-tories-will-win-uk-election/

[ronaldo7]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2625863/Lottery-pairs-2-5m-Scots-Couple-provided-80-funding-yes-campaign.html

However, if you take away the Weirs’ contribution, Better Together would have received more than £1million more.

Let's give it up furra Weir's:thumbsup::jmcp::not worth

[Glory Lurker]

However, if you take away the Weirs’ contribution, Better Together would have received more than £1million more.

Let's give it up furra Weir's:thumbsup::jmcp::not worth


Yup. I'm sure, too, that if you could put a price on the support given by certain sections of the media BT would have enjoyed much, much more than Yes, even counting the Weirs in.

And.....

I see in the same article BT are bumping their gums about the cost of the White Paper, but clearly don't give a hoot about the cost of the Whitehall offensive (!).

[SHODAN]

A couple of final pushes and we'll see the yes vote over the line. Mon the Tories in Englandshire.:greengrin

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/polls/272322-scots-likely-to-vote-yes-if-they-think-tories-will-win-uk-election/

Sad to see people in this country still think Labour have Scotland's (or the poor's, for that matter) best interests at heart.

[ronaldo7]

When Blair and Dewar shifted the Scottish maritime boundary the night before the Scottish Parlaiment sat in 1999, they thought nobody was watching.

Thank god we have Craig Murray(Former uk ambassador) on our side. It looks like we will be able to get our 6000 square miles of north sea back after our Yes vote.

It's mentioned up to about 4.19 and he then goes on to talk about the British government and their role in torchure, and rendition flights.

http://www.spreaker.com/user/michaelgreenwell/scotindypod-71-craig-murray?clickid=3fn2T7wQn3bJS65UgkRCMwZPUkTSCSUVNRE uSI0&irpid=10078&sharedid=&mp_value1=

[ronaldo7]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2625863/Lottery-pairs-2-5m-Scots-Couple-provided-80-funding-yes-campaign.html

http://archive.today/Z4QXN

The gap has closed to 3 according to your fav paper mate.:wink:

[lucky]

http://archive.today/Z4QXN

The gap has closed to 3 according to your fav paper mate.:wink:

There is no gap. As opinion polls fluctuate all the time. The only poll that counts is on the 18/09/14. I'm still confident of a comfortable winning margin on 65% no to yes 35%. But let's see

[Saorsa]

There is no gap. As opinion polls fluctuate all the time. The only poll that counts is on the 18/09/14. I'm still confident of a comfortable winning margin on 65% no to yes 35%. But let's seeWhat about canvass returns? What's your opinion on them? :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

The wee ginger dug has hope...

http://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2014/05/13/home-made-hope/

[lucky]

Good article in today's Morning Star

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-399d-Voices-of-Scotland-Fake-independence-is-a-trap-for-the-Left#.U3HbZYm9LCQ

[green glory]

Daily Fail and others reporting Alistair Darling sacked at head of Better Together. Douglas Alexander being lined up to replacement after a crisis meeting.

[Moulin Yarns]

Good article in today's Morning Star

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-399d-Voices-of-Scotland-Fake-independence-is-a-trap-for-the-Left#.U3HbZYm9LCQ

Red rag, to a bull****

[ronaldo7]

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/04/30/scotland-yet/

[ronaldo7]

There is no gap. As opinion polls fluctuate all the time. The only poll that counts is on the 18/09/14. I'm still confident of a comfortable winning margin on 65% no to yes 35%. But let's see

:agree: To the bit in bold, but I wonder what the UK Government have done with their own poll which cost £46,000 to commission.

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/may/westminster-must-publish-hidden-opinion-poll

[JeMeSouviens]

From the FT:


"Ireland’s borrowing costs at shorter maturities are now significantly below those of Britain. The benchmark Irish two-year borrowing cost is 0.406 per cent, compared with London’s 0.725. At five-year maturities, Ireland can borrow at an interest rate of 1.241 per cent compared with the UK having to pay the higher rate of 1.969 per cent."

Ireland's credit rating, Baa3 is a few notches below the UK's Aa1. How does that square with the Unionist analysis about prohibitive borrowing costs for iScotland? (And iScots come to that.)

[JeMeSouviens]

A couple of final pushes and we'll see the yes vote over the line. Mon the Tories in Englandshire.:greengrin

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/polls/272322-scots-likely-to-vote-yes-if-they-think-tories-will-win-uk-election/

Coincidentally,

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/12/support-labour-drops-tories-lead-guardian-icm-poll

Not sure about "Mon the Tories", it's a bit like when Hearts beat Killie the other week, a silver lining to a dark cloud.

[ronaldo7]

Coincidentally,

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/12/support-labour-drops-tories-lead-guardian-icm-poll

Not sure about "Mon the Tories", it's a bit like when Hearts beat Killie the other week, a silver lining to a dark cloud.

I know, I shouldn't wish those *******s on anyone. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

The fear factor part 2...Scarier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaMw5GiXgWQ

[Saorsa]

The fear factor part 2...Scarier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaMw5GiXgWQhttp://www.rcsky.de/images/smilies/smiley_emoticons_panik3.gif


:greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

#PublishThePoll

[JeMeSouviens]

Good article on the problems of one of the more glaring pieces of devolution asymmetry: a parliament that can spend but can't raise tax.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/40-reasons-to-support-scottish-independence-reason-17-if-you-spend-but-dont-c

[JeMeSouviens]

#PublishThePoll

Intriguingly, the poll in question is supposed to be from Ipsos/MORI who have been one of the companies producing big No leads. I wonder if this might be some cunning fishing from the No side. Create a Yes clamour to publish the "secret" poll, then hammer out a N+20?

More importantly, wtf are the UK gov doing spending £50K on opinion polling when there's already umpteen public domain polls being churned out?

Latest poll today from TNS/BRMB, although the fieldwork is a couple of weeks old. Inc DKs and changes vs last TNS poll:

Y 30 (+1)
N 42 (+1)

Which incidentally puts DKs on 28, massively more than the other pollsters. There are clearly widely different methodologies on offer but generally polling is still producing 2 clumps. Ipsos/MORI, YouGov and TNS/BRMB showing No leads (ex DKs) well into double digits and ICM, Panelbase, Survation showing a much tighter race, somewhere around 4-8%. The clumps are consistent but can't both be right, so although "poll of polls" analysis is showing a moderate tightening to a 10-12% No lead, it's probably actually either much larger or much smaller than that, but who can tell which?

[Bristolhibby]

It's a taxpayers money issue for me.

We (the people) own that poll and the data contained within.

We have the right to have it published in its entirety.

Can't see it not being published as a quick FOI should unlock the situation.

I'd be astounded if these hadn't been asked.

J

[Future17]

Intriguingly, the poll in question is supposed to be from Ipsos/MORI who have been one of the companies producing big No leads. I wonder if this might be some cunning fishing from the No side. Create a Yes clamour to publish the "secret" poll, then hammer out a N+20?

More importantly, wtf are the UK gov doing spending £50K on opinion polling when there's already umpteen public domain polls being churned out?

Latest poll today from TNS/BRMB, although the fieldwork is a couple of weeks old. Inc DKs and changes vs last TNS poll:

Y 30 (+1)
N 42 (+1)

Which incidentally puts DKs on 28, massively more than the other pollsters. There are clearly widely different methodologies on offer but generally polling is still producing 2 clumps. Ipsos/MORI, YouGov and TNS/BRMB showing No leads (ex DKs) well into double digits and ICM, Panelbase, Survation showing a much tighter race, somewhere around 4-8%. The clumps are consistent but can't both be right, so although "poll of polls" analysis is showing a moderate tightening to a 10-12% No lead, it's probably actually either much larger or much smaller than that, but who can tell which?

That was my thought as well. The other possibility being that someone in UK Gov has commissioned a poll with additional questions, other than "How will you vote?" which might be embarassing to them in hindsight. Something like, "Would you be more likely to vote 'No' if David Cameron was not Prime Minister?" But surely nobody is that stupid...:hmmm:

[lucky]

The poll should be published but it means nothing. The fact remains the No campaign remain in front and are on course to win.

[JeMeSouviens]

The poll should be published but it means nothing. The fact remains the No campaign remain in front and are on course to win.

Could be, but if these lines get any closer, it'll be squeaky bums together. :aok:

http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Slide1R.jpg

[7 Hills]

Intriguingly, the poll in question is supposed to be from Ipsos/MORI who have been one of the companies producing big No leads. I wonder if this might be some cunning fishing from the No side. Create a Yes clamour to publish the "secret" poll, then hammer out a N+20?

More importantly, wtf are the UK gov doing spending £50K on opinion polling when there's already umpteen public domain polls being churned out?

Latest poll today from TNS/BRMB, although the fieldwork is a couple of weeks old. Inc DKs and changes vs last TNS poll:

Y 30 (+1)
N 42 (+1)

Which incidentally puts DKs on 28, massively more than the other pollsters. There are clearly widely different methodologies on offer but generally polling is still producing 2 clumps. Ipsos/MORI, YouGov and TNS/BRMB showing No leads (ex DKs) well into double digits and ICM, Panelbase, Survation showing a much tighter race, somewhere around 4-8%. The clumps are consistent but can't both be right, so although "poll of polls" analysis is showing a moderate tightening to a 10-12% No lead, it's probably actually either much larger or much smaller than that, but who can tell which?

I don't think so, I believe the burying of this poll came to light through a letter to a newspaper from someone who works for MORI. It would also explain the reports that Alastair Darling is about to be replaced as the figurehead of BT by Douglas Alexander. Which smacks of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic to me. :greengrin

[Alex Trager]

The poll should be published but it means nothing. The fact remains the No campaign remain in front and are on course to win.

I think the yes vote is closing in. Like a reel raced horse closing on the final furlongs about to romp through

[steakbake]

Intriguingly, the poll in question is supposed to be from Ipsos/MORI who have been one of the companies producing big No leads. I wonder if this might be some cunning fishing from the No side. Create a Yes clamour to publish the "secret" poll, then hammer out a N+20?

More importantly, wtf are the UK gov doing spending £50K on opinion polling when there's already umpteen public domain polls being churned out?

Latest poll today from TNS/BRMB, although the fieldwork is a couple of weeks old. Inc DKs and changes vs last TNS poll:

Y 30 (+1)
N 42 (+1)

Which incidentally puts DKs on 28, massively more than the other pollsters. There are clearly widely different methodologies on offer but generally polling is still producing 2 clumps. Ipsos/MORI, YouGov and TNS/BRMB showing No leads (ex DKs) well into double digits and ICM, Panelbase, Survation showing a much tighter race, somewhere around 4-8%. The clumps are consistent but can't both be right, so although "poll of polls" analysis is showing a moderate tightening to a 10-12% No lead, it's probably actually either much larger or much smaller than that, but who can tell which?

In brief, the polls tell us nothing.

[ronaldo7]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/ex-hearts-star-michael-stewart-backs-independence-1-3411909

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/scottish-sports-stars-and-fans-launch-yes-vote-campaign.1400143392

I'm warming to him:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/ex-hearts-star-michael-stewart-backs-independence-1-3411909

I'm warming to him:greengrin

Yes, but he isn't doing as much for the Yes campaign as this guy :greengrin

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/osborne-independence-will-kill-scottish-banknotes-1-3411277 :wink:

[lucky]

Or as much as this man is doing for the No campaign
http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/salmond-would-push-third-of-scots-towards-no-1-3412296

[Beefster]

Or as much as this man is doing for the No campaign
http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/salmond-would-push-third-of-scots-towards-no-1-3412296

No-one should vote on such short-term issues like Salmond. Much better to vote on long-term issues like Gideon, Cameron and UKIP. Or even completely unconnected matters like the English NHS.

[ronaldo7]

Or as much as this man is doing for the No campaign
http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/salmond-would-push-third-of-scots-towards-no-1-3412296

Some great results in there mate.

1/3 would vote No so 2/3 would vote yes:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

I like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD4INA-rq9g&feature=youtu.be

:thumbsup:

[JeMeSouviens]

No-one should vote on such short-term issues like Salmond. Much better to vote on long-term issues like Gideon, Cameron and UKIP. Or even completely unconnected matters like the English NHS.

Does the fact that Osborne, Cameron & co and UKIP are currently polling at a bit over 50% of 2015 UK general election voting intentions not tell us something about the divergence between the UK and Scottish political mainstreams though? (Whereas Salmond's personality just tells us that a large body of folk find him not their cup of tea.)

If Scotland is just another UK region, that's fine. If you believe Scotland is a "real country" (for want of a better way of expressing it) then surely we need a government capable of reflecting something like the consensus outlook?

[Beefster]

Does the fact that Osborne, Cameron & co and UKIP are currently polling at a bit over 50% of 2015 UK general election voting intentions not tell us something about the divergence between the UK and Scottish political mainstreams though? (Whereas Salmond's personality just tells us that a large body of folk find him not their cup of tea.)

If Scotland is just another UK region, that's fine. If you believe Scotland is a "real country" (for want of a better way of expressing it) then surely we need a government capable of reflecting something like the consensus outlook?

The Scottish parliament has a SNP majority when the majority of Scots voted for someone else. The UK government has a coalition government that the majority of the UK voted for.

45% of Scots voted for the SNP government in 2011. 36% of Scots voted for either the Tories or the Lib Dems in 2010. I know its a common tactic to make out that no-one in Scotland gets what they want in Westminster but it's not actually accurate.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Scottish parliament has a SNP majority when the majority of Scots voted for someone else. The UK government has a coalition government that the majority of the UK voted for.

45% of Scots voted for the SNP government in 2011. 36% of Scots voted for either the Tories or the Lib Dems in 2010. I know its a common tactic to make out that no-one in Scotland gets what they want in Westminster but it's not actually accurate.

As a tactical Lib Dem (never again!) voter in the 2010 GE, I bitterly resent this bit. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I wasn't making quite as narrow a point as you seem to have responded to. Yes, the SNP was elected on a minority. Yes, there are some Tories here too. etc

However, if it weren't for the national question, you could quite imagine any of the SNP, Labour and the Scottish Lib Dems (about 75-80% of the electorate combined) forming a coalition and finding a parliament's worth of agreement that their voters wouldn't recoil in horror over. On the other hand, the Tories and UKIP are a different fish of kettles altogether. The fact that between them, those 2 could pull in a majority vote in the UK surely illustrates the different centre of political gravity here as opposed to there?

As I said, that's fine for a region within a country. I don't think it's sustainable if you believe Scotland is a country in its own right. I accept both as legitimate positions, btw, just that I am in the latter camp.

[marinello59]

The Scottish parliament has a SNP majority when the majority of Scots voted for someone else. The UK government has a coalition government that the majority of the UK voted for.

45% of Scots voted for the SNP government in 2011. 36% of Scots voted for either the Tories or the Lib Dems in 2010. I know its a common tactic to make out that no-one in Scotland gets what they want in Westminster but it's not actually accurate.

Fair point.
I also wonder if it is the Tory brand that is more toxic in Scotland than their policies. As an example, this Thatcher hating land bought up their council houses as enthusiastically as anywhere else in the UK. And the popular council tax freeze we have at the moment in Scotland is a policy that any Tory government would be proud of. When we become Independent (and we will :greengrin) the centre right could become winners in Scotland again. We can all blame Salmond if that happens. :greengrin

[allmodcons]

The Scottish parliament has a SNP majority when the majority of Scots voted for someone else. The UK government has a coalition government that the majority of the UK voted for.

45% of Scots voted for the SNP government in 2011. 36% of Scots voted for either the Tories or the Lib Dems in 2010. I know its a common tactic to make out that no-one in Scotland gets what they want in Westminster but it's not actually accurate.

Do you seriously believe that those voting Lib Dem in 2010 got what they voted for?

Could it be that the collapse of the Lib Dem vote since then has something to do with the fact that the Lib Dem leadership decided to get into bed with the Conservatives?

[Beefster]

Fair point.
I also wonder if it is the Tory brand that is more toxic in Scotland than their policies. As an example, this Thatcher hating land bought up their council houses as enthusiastically as anywhere else in the UK. And the popular council tax freeze we have at the moment in Scotland is a policy that any Tory government would be proud of. When we become Independent (and we will :greengrin) the centre right could become winners in Scotland again. We can all blame Salmond if that happens. :greengrin

Absolutely. I think that, if we go for independence, a centre right party (the Scottish Tories may need a name change) with few ties to Westminster will do pretty well eventually. One of the reasons (of many) that I think the folk expecting a left-wing paradise are a touch misguided.


Do you seriously believe that those voting Lib Dem in 2010 got what they voted for?

Could it be that the collapse of the Lib Dem vote since then has something to do with the fact that the Lib Dem leadership decided to get into bed with the Conservatives?

Unless they were spoiling their ballot or making a mistake, anyone voting Lib Dem knew that if they got in power it was going to be in a coalition. In that case, they got what they voted for. As a bonus, some of them got Lib Dem MPs representing them too.

[allmodcons]

Absolutely. I think that, if we go for independence, a centre right party (the Scottish Tories may need a name change) with few ties to Westminster will do pretty well eventually. One of the reasons (of many) that I think the folk expecting a left-wing paradise are a touch misguided.



Unless they were spoiling their ballot or making a mistake, anyone voting Lib Dem knew that if they got in power it was going to be in a coalition. In that case, they got what they voted for. As a bonus, some of them got Lib Dem MPs representing them too.

So how do you explain the subsequent collapse in the Lib Dem vote?

[Beefster]

So how do you explain the subsequent collapse in the Lib Dem vote?

I'm not saying they were voting for a Tory / Lib Dem coalition. Their voters probably thought that either the Lib Dems wouldn't get into power, they were voting for Lib Dems to stop a Tory or Labour politician getting in in their constituency or they thought that the Lib Dems would only go into coalition with Labour.

If you vote for a party, you take the consequences irrespective.

As for their vote, it's a range of reasons, including Clegg and their broken promises, as much as the coalition IMHO. Ultimately, I don't think that their vote will drop that much when it comes to it though.

[sauzee_4]

No-one should vote on such short-term issues like Salmond. Much better to vote on long-term issues like Whether we go into illegal warsGideon, Whether we have nuclear weapons on our soilCameron and Whether all decisions affecting Scotland are made in Scotland.UKIP. Or even completely unconnected matters like the English NHS.

Fixed that for you:greengrin

[Just Alf]

Absolutely. I think that, if we go for independence, a centre right party (the Scottish Tories may need a name change) with few ties to Westminster will do pretty well eventually.

I may have mentioned this before but my folks have been voting SNP for years, if we were to get a yes then they will go back to voting Tory.

[Moulin Yarns]

A worrying trend.

My better half manages a shop that relies on both local customers and tourists, in a town that relies heavily on tourism. Last weekend was the busiest of the year so far, and she has noticed that there has been a noticeable increase of English visitors stating that they wouldn't come back if Scotland votes for Independence.

Why should this be?

Is it because they are only getting the negativity from the BitterTogether side and the Yes Campaign needs to address this?

Is it because they think that all Scots will suddenly become racist towards the English?

I don't know the answer, why should people who like to holiday in Scotland suddenly think, Scotland is foreign, I'll need a passport, and have to change my money, and maybe have to learn gaelic to go there in the future.

[lucky]

A worrying trend.

My better half manages a shop that relies on both local customers and tourists, in a town that relies heavily on tourism. Last weekend was the busiest of the year so far, and she has noticed that there has been a noticeable increase of English visitors stating that they wouldn't come back if Scotland votes for Independence.

Why should this be?

Is it because they are only getting the negativity from the BitterTogether side and the Yes Campaign needs to address this?

Is it because they think that all Scots will suddenly become racist towards the English?

I don't know the answer, why should people who like to holiday in Scotland suddenly think, Scotland is foreign, I'll need a passport, and have to change my money, and maybe have to learn gaelic to go there in the future.

The negativity is shown in your own post by calling the official no campaign bitter together. Add that to project fear, democratic deficit and the calls for boycotting of companies who support the no campaign. Is it really surprising that others view the yes campaign as negative one

[Moulin Yarns]

The negativity is shown in your own post by calling the official no campaign bitter together. Add that to project fear, democratic deficit and the calls for boycotting of companies who support the no campaign. Is it really surprising that others view the yes campaign as negative one

I think you missed my point.

Why are tourists saying they won't come back to Scotland post Independence? What tangible difference will exist that would prevent someone who has been coming to Scotland every year for holidays to continue to come?

That view is very strange? regardless of what side of the debate you are on. Put it another way, post Independence I will still holiday in England, probably at least once a year. Nothing will have changed, there won't be a new border, the border has always been there, and we all see the 'welcome' sign as we cross it.

I won't need a passport, or visa, or quarantined, unless rUK decides otherwise.

[Hibbyradge]

This is one of the reasons that I've moved much closer to voting yes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjVtI2Be9vg

[Beefster]

This is one of the reasons that I've moved much closer to voting yes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjVtI2Be9vg

Because Rangers fans won't be part of an independent Scotland or because the Scottish bigots in the armed forces will disappear?

[ronaldo7]

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/05/the-acanchi-effect/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=Twitter

I'm loving this guys work, shining a light on the dark areas of Vote No Borders and the lies they have spun.

Onwards and upwards with the Yes Team.

[lucky]

I think you missed my point.

Why are tourists saying they won't come back to Scotland post Independence? What tangible difference will exist that would prevent someone who has been coming to Scotland every year for holidays to continue to come?

That view is very strange? regardless of what side of the debate you are on. Put it another way, post Independence I will still holiday in England, probably at least once a year. Nothing will have changed, there won't be a new border, the border has always been there, and we all see the 'welcome' sign as we cross it.

I won't need a passport, or visa, or quarantined, unless rUK decides otherwise.

It's the views of many in the rUK that this is a anti English vote. It's a tough balancing act to promote Scotland without attacking what we could be leaving behind. It's clear from your own experiences that a lot English people believe that so far the Yes campaign is the one viewed as negative

[allmodcons]

More good news for Yes.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/call-to-block-yes-date-and-timetable.24235359


SNP MP Angus MacNeil said: "The House of Lords is an undemocratic anachronism stuffed to the gunnels with over 800 unelected peers of the realm who answer to no electors and are there because of privilege or patronage. To be lectured by them about timetables and for democratic processes is something that could only happen in Westminster. '' :agree:

[green glory]

I was canvassing in Carrick Knowe last night. Approximately 90 houses between the 3 canvassing teams. We ask how people feel about independence on a scale of 1-10. 1 being not at all in favour, and 10 very much in favour.

Between the 3 teams we only had 2 definite No voters, with the vast majority describing themselves as 6-7 and above with a fair sprinkling of 8-10s.

[allmodcons]

It's the views of many in the rUK that this is a anti English vote. It's a tough balancing act to promote Scotland without attacking what we could be leaving behind. It's clear from your own experiences that a lot English people believe that so far the Yes campaign is the one viewed as negative

Do have any evidence to support the statement in bold?

Also, if you're suggesting that the Yes campaign is being viewed down south as more negative than Better Together, again, where's the evidence.

Polling across Scotland consistently shows that Better Together is considered to be more negative than Yes.

Where's the evidence to support your claim that it's the other way round in England?

[allmodcons]

I'm not saying they were voting for a Tory / Lib Dem coalition. Their voters probably thought that either the Lib Dems wouldn't get into power, they were voting for Lib Dems to stop a Tory or Labour politician getting in in their constituency or they thought that the Lib Dems would only go into coalition with Labour.

If you vote for a party, you take the consequences irrespective.

As for their vote, it's a range of reasons, including Clegg and their broken promises, as much as the coalition IMHO. Ultimately, I don't think that their vote will drop that much when it comes to it though.

Judging by their performance in the 2011 Scottish Election, I think it's fair to say that their vote has already dropped (dramatically) as a result of them getting into bed with the Conservatives:-

Constituency Vote
2007 - 11 seats & 18%
2011 - 6 seats & 8%

Regional Vote
2007 - 6 seats & 10%
2011 - 3 seats & 5%

[Beefster]

Judging by their performance in the 2011 Scottish Election, I think it's fair to say that their vote has already dropped (dramatically) as a result of them getting into bed with the Conservatives:-

Constituency Vote
2007 - 11 seats & 18%
2011 - 6 seats & 8%

Regional Vote
2007 - 6 seats & 10%
2011 - 3 seats & 5%

We were talking in the context of the UK general election though, no?

Given your previous post to lucky, I'd be hoping for some evidence to support your assertion that the drop is purely down to their choice of coalition partners rather than a number of factors. As I'm sure you are aware, correlation doesn't imply causation.

Has the SNP vote in Dumfries plummeted after their coalition with the Tories?

[Moulin Yarns]

It's the views of many in the rUK that this is a anti English vote. It's a tough balancing act to promote Scotland without attacking what we could be leaving behind. It's clear from your own experiences that a lot English people believe that so far the Yes campaign is the one viewed as negative


Do have any evidence to support the statement in bold?

Also, if you're suggesting that the Yes campaign is being viewed down south as more negative than Better Together, again, where's the evidence.

Polling across Scotland consistently shows that Better Together is considered to be more negative than Yes.

Where's the evidence to support your claim that it's the other way round in England?

Thanks Mod, I couldn't have put it better myself. All the evidence seems to be the opposite.

Yes - we plan to do this, that and the other = Positive
BT - No you can't, No you won't, We won't let you. It is our ball and we won't let you play. = Negative

Yes - Here is the white paper which lays down our proposals for an Independent Scotland. = Positive
BT - We can't tell you what you will get if you vote no, but it will be better. So why wait until there is a threat of losing Scotland does the rUK decide things will be better, why not do it now? Because they do not have any plans, David Cameron admitted as much to Sally Magnusson last night. = Negative

[Beefster]

Thanks Mod, I couldn't have put it better myself. All the evidence seems to be the opposite.

Yes - we plan to do this, that and the other = Positive
BT - No you can't, No you won't, We won't let you. It is our ball and we won't let you play. = Negative

Yes - Here is the white paper which lays down our proposals for an Independent Scotland. = Positive
BT - We can't tell you what you will get if you vote no, but it will be better. So why wait until there is a threat of losing Scotland does the rUK decide things will be better, why not do it now? Because they do not have any plans, David Cameron admitted as much to Sally Magnusson last night. = Negative

If the Better Together campaign came out and said "If you vote no, we'll get fairy dust and starlight and give you everything you want (even although secretly we have no idea if we can get you it and, to be honest, we're not even sure that fairy dust exists)" would that be positive?

The SNP 'vision' is predicated on three monumental assumptions (which have a 0% of happening) - we vote yes, the SNP are successful in negotiating everything they want and that the SNP will be in power for a while post-independence.

A more honest debate would go along the lines of:

- SNP: We haven't got a ****ing clue what an independent Scotland will be like but here is our absolutely ideal scenario...

- The rest: We haven't got a ****ing clue what a post-referendum UK/Scotland will look like but, if our party gets a Westminster majority, here's what we'd like to see...

[lucky]

Do have any evidence to support the statement in bold?

Also, if you're suggesting that the Yes campaign is being viewed down south as more negative than Better Together, again, where's the evidence.

Polling across Scotland consistently shows that Better Together is considered to be more negative than Yes.

Where's the evidence to support your claim that it's the other way round in England?

Going by posts above and speaking to colleagues this week when I was in Brighton I don't think I'm to far of the mark

[allmodcons]

Judging by their performance in the 2011 Scottish Election, I think it's fair to say that their vote has already dropped (dramatically) as a result of them getting into bed with the Conservatives:-

Constituency Vote
2007 - 11 seats & 18%
2011 - 6 seats & 8%

Regional Vote
2007 - 6 seats & 10%
2011 - 3 seats & 5%


We were talking in the context of the UK general election though, no?

No, but if you want to, I suggest you check their UKPR polling average, I think it's running at 9%.

Given your previous post to lucky, I'd be hoping for some evidence to support your assertion that the drop is purely down to their choice of coalition partners rather than a number of factors. As I'm sure you are aware, correlation doesn't imply causation.

I never suggested it was "purely down" to their choice of coalition partners but, assertion or not, I think the voting figures I posted in support my point (i.e. - evidence) clearly show a major collapse in the Lib Dem vote at the 2011 Scottish Election. This election took place less than a year after they entered coalition with the Conservatives and, IMO, is the 'main reason' for the collapse in their vote.

Has the SNP vote in Dumfries plummeted after their coalition with the Tories?

I have no idea what the SNP vote is like in Dumfries! I can't find any stats to say one way or the other.

[allmodcons]

It's the views of many in the rUK that this is a anti English vote. It's a tough balancing act to promote Scotland without attacking what we could be leaving behind. It's clear from your own experiences that a lot English people believe that so far the Yes campaign is the one viewed as negative


Going by posts above and speaking to colleagues this week when I was in Brighton I don't think I'm to far of the mark

This is your evidence to support the statement that it is the view of many in rUK that the vote on Scottish Independence is an anti English vote?

[steakbake]

This is your evidence to support the statement that it is the view of many in rUK that the vote on Scottish Independence is an anti English vote?

Anecdotal - but much of this thread is.

Also to be honest, I don't think people in the ruk get much in the way of reliable information about how the debate is going, why people are voting the way they are etc. The shortcut way to understand it is: it's because they don't like us. The longer version is perhaps too complex for a lot of people who don't follow Scottish politics regularly to understand.

I'm often talking to people from ruk about it and much of it is simply not understanding either devolution, the Scottish point of view and so on. The idea of the subsidy junkie is still rampant with a number of people I speak to. Loosely, I equate it to why friends and family from South of the border don't understand why most Scots won't be cheering on England at the World Cup. Some people are dicks about it and take sporting rivalry way too far. But I'm pretty sure not many neighbouring countries support their biggest rivals in international competitions. Do the Danes, Dutch, Belgians etc support Germany, I ask them. "But we support Andy Murray when he plays tennis", is often the reply before I remind them that how they feel about the stars of boutique pastimes of the bourgeoisie are entirely up to them.

To be honest, the media coverage is not much better but what's worse with them is that they're in a position to inform themselves and as ever - and for both sides - the negative is far more newsworthy than the positive. Recent example: there's no way Darling won't lead Better Together until the day itself, but that's not going to shift newspapers or get people tuning in for the next instalment.

[ronaldo7]

FREEDOM...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avp9aUkM5g0&feature=youtu.be

:greengrin

[yeezus.]

This is one of the reasons that I've moved much closer to voting yes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjVtI2Be9vg

Seems like a daft reason to vote Yes to independence. As Beefster pointed out, these guys won't disappear!

[Betty Boop]

Unite Against Fascism Rally agaist the SDL today, meeting at 12 Waverley Steps.

https://www.facebook.com/EdinburghUAF

[Moulin Yarns]

Unite Against Fascism Rally agaist the SDL today, meeting at 12 Waverley Steps.

https://www.facebook.com/EdinburghUAF

I would rather ignore them, they WILL go away.

[steakbake]

Seems like a daft reason to vote Yes to independence. As Beefster pointed out, these guys won't disappear!

Everyone has their reasons...

[Booker5time]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuW6u0jnoFs&feature=youtu.be

Here a couple of convincing videos to vote no from the grassroots group vote no borders*cough* :na na:

[Booker5time]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmmgZozRm-4

[steakbake]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuW6u0jnoFs&feature=youtu.be

Here a couple of convincing videos to vote no from the grassroots group vote no borders*cough* :na na:

Haha yeah, the "grassroots" group which received funding from DBIS and was set up by a government employee...

[sauzee_4]

Scotlands GDP without Oil is 99% of the UK's...... Seems that first ad is extremely misleading. A bit like the Better together ads stating we will "Put our pensions at risk" by becoming independent.

[sauzee_4]

Scotlands GDP without Oil is 99% of the UK's...... Seems that first ad is extremely misleading. A bit like the Better together ads stating we will "Put our pensions at risk" by becoming independent.

To be fair this has been happening on both sides of the debate. Would be nice for both sides to inform the public a bit more accurately. We all want what's best at the end of the day.

[ronaldo7]

to be fair this has been happening on both sides of the debate. Would be nice for both sides to inform the public a bit more accurately. we all want what's best at the end of the day.

yes.

[ronaldo7]

It's the views of many in the rUK that this is a anti English vote. It's a tough balancing act to promote Scotland without attacking what we could be leaving behind. It's clear from your own experiences that a lot English people believe that so far the Yes campaign is the one viewed as negative

http://www.propanow.com/londoners-react-to-cameron-speech

[ronaldo7]

It's the views of many in the rUK that this is a anti English vote. It's a tough balancing act to promote Scotland without attacking what we could be leaving behind. It's clear from your own experiences that a lot English people believe that so far the Yes campaign is the one viewed as negative

Were you speaking to this guy by any chance:greengrin

http://scottishpokemon.wordpress.com/2014/05/17/leaked-documents-show-anti-english-sentiment-as-real-drive-for-yes-camp-north-british-post/

North Britain indeed.

[ronaldo7]

When will the Labour party and their supporters get out of bed with these Tory *******s.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/may/16/privatise-child-protection-services-department-for-education-proposes

[yeezus.]

The Yes campaign's child poverty poster is disgusting, blatant hypocrisy on "negative campaigning".

[ronaldo7]

The Yes campaign's child poverty poster is disgusting, blatant hypocrisy on "negative campaigning".

Is it this one your talking about?

http://www.yesscotland.net/news/yes-vote-we-can-use-scotlands-wealth-halt-scandal-child-poverty

Can you explain what's so disgusting?

[yeezus.]

Is it this one your talking about?

http://www.yesscotland.net/news/yes-vote-we-can-use-scotlands-wealth-halt-scandal-child-poverty

Can you explain what's so disgusting?

Yes this one, it's disgusting to suggest (without any credible evidence) that 100,000 children will live in poverty if we vote No. It is also hypocritical to accuse the Better Together campaign of being negative when tripe like this is put up around the country.

[ronaldo7]

Yes this one, it's disgusting to suggest (without any credible evidence) that 100,000 children will live in poverty if we vote No. It is also hypocritical to accuse the Better Together campaign of being negative when tripe like this is put up around the country.

http://www.cpag.org.uk/scotland/child-poverty-facts-and-figures

“According to the Child Poverty Action Group in Scotland, by the year 2020 up to 100,000 more children could be pushed into poverty by Westminster austerity policies.

“Think for a moment. Those could be the kids down your street, or next door. It could even be your own children or grandchildren. There is only one guaranteed way to reverse the growing number of children living in poverty. We must have complete control of our own economic resources.

“Then we can use our vast wealth to create a fairer, more prosperous country where our children will have a better chance in life.

Then again maybe cpag are a bunch of numpties.

[ronaldo7]

Haha yeah, the "grassroots" group which received funding from DBIS and was set up by a government employee...


This should lend a hand to anyone who's in a foreign land when we become independent and have no consulate facilities.
:wink:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/fear-of-flying/

[yeezus.]

http://www.cpag.org.uk/scotland/child-poverty-facts-and-figures

“According to the Child Poverty Action Group in Scotland, by the year 2020 up to 100,000 more children could be pushed into poverty by Westminster austerity policies.

“Think for a moment. Those could be the kids down your street, or next door. It could even be your own children or grandchildren. There is only one guaranteed way to reverse the growing number of children living in poverty. We must have complete control of our own economic resources.

“Then we can use our vast wealth to create a fairer, more prosperous country where our children will have a better chance in life.

Then again maybe cpag are a bunch of numpties.

You are kidding yourself if a) you think every future Westminster gov. will pursue austerity on the same level the coalition are and b) if you think a post-independent Scotland would not have to either raise taxes or cut public spending. Do you accept that poster is a form of negative campaigning?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scotland-s-economy-needs-austerity-after-yes-vote-1-3328912

[Beefster]

This should lend a hand to anyone who's in a foreign land when we become independent and have no consulate facilities.
:wink:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/fear-of-flying/

I can't be arsed checking but it must be a fair few weeks since you actually contributed something yourself to this debate, rather than just posting links to other folk.

[ronaldo7]

You are kidding yourself if a) you think every future Westminster gov. will pursue austerity on the same level the coalition are and b) if you think a post-independent Scotland would not have to either raise taxes or cut public spending. Do you accept that poster is a form of negative campaigning?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scotland-s-economy-needs-austerity-after-yes-vote-1-3328912

Can't tell the future mate. I only know what the position is just now. Austerity coming down the line from all Westminster parties, with limited control by the Holyrood Government to try and limit the damage to the poor. Or a chance for us to ALWAYS get the government we vote for, and for us to shape our own future.

[ronaldo7]

I can't be arsed checking but it must be a fair few weeks since you actually contributed something yourself to this debate, rather than just posting links to other folk.

It's fair to say that I normally post a link to try and inform the debate. I normally put a couple of lines in of my own about the piece. Something wrong with that?

[Hibrandenburg]

Something wrong with that?

Aye, you're getting to them. :thumbsup:

[Beefster]

It's fair to say that I normally post a link to try and inform the debate. I normally put a couple of lines in of my own about the piece. Something wrong with that?

Well, yes, if I thought there wasn't, I probably wouldn't have mentioned it. Knock yourself out though, you pay as much as me to post on here.

Do you think anyone actually reads most of your links?

[ronaldo7]

Well, yes, if I thought there wasn't, I probably wouldn't have mentioned it. Knock yourself out though, you pay as much as me to post on here.

Do you think anyone actually reads most of your links?

As I've said previously, people can read the links or not. It's up to them. Looking back at the thread, I seem to be getting a response from people on most of the links.

I'm glad I can continue to knock myself out, and I will continue to do so. I thought I was being rebuked by an Admin for a moment.

[Beefster]

I thought I was being rebuked by an Admin for a moment.

I'd be an awesome, if slightly divisive, Admin.

[yeezus.]

Can't tell the future mate. I only know what the position is just now. Austerity coming down the line from all Westminster parties, with limited control by the Holyrood Government to try and limit the damage to the poor. Or a chance for us to ALWAYS get the government we vote for, and for us to shape our own future.

It sounds like you are quoting from the SNP's white paper. Are you ready to admit that the Yes camp is using negative campaigning, trying to exploit peoples genuine fears about the coalition's welfare reforms as a reason to breakaway from the UK?

[500miles]

Well, yes, if I thought there wasn't, I probably wouldn't have mentioned it. Knock yourself out though, you pay as much as me to post on here.

Do you think anyone actually reads most of your links?

You seem to object to him backing up his opinion with sources. I don't understand why though?

[Beefster]

You seem to object to him backing up his opinion with sources. I don't understand why though?

No, that's not it. At all.

[Fergus52]

It sounds like you are quoting from the SNP's white paper. Are you ready to admit that the Yes camp is using negative campaigning, trying to exploit peoples genuine fears about the coalition's welfare reforms as a reason to breakaway from the UK?

The yes campaign has one poster add that is quite negative, big deal?

[allmodcons]

I can't be arsed checking but it must be a fair few weeks since you actually contributed something yourself to this debate, rather than just posting links to other folk.

You complain about another posters contribution and, in the same short sentence, have the audacity to open your 'effort' with "I can't be arsed checking".



Well, yes, if I thought there wasn't, I probably wouldn't have mentioned it. Knock yourself out though, you pay as much as me to post on here.

Do you think anyone actually reads most of your links?

Then you patronise.

[allmodcons]

It sounds like you are quoting from the SNP's white paper. Are you ready to admit that the Yes camp is using negative campaigning, trying to exploit peoples genuine fears about the coalition's welfare reforms as a reason to breakaway from the UK?

One of the variety of reasons for voting Yes is the hope that an iScotland will help create a more equal society that the UK.
For some, this IS a very good reason to vote Yes.

[Beefster]

You complain about another posters contribution and, in the same short sentence, have the audacity to open your 'effort' with "I can't be arsed checking".

Then you patronise.

I don't agree with your first point. I wasn't attempting to add to the debate. I was merely highlighting that I don't think posting links to someone else's opinion adds to the debate. To be honest, it was my perception/opinion but I wasn't going to be tragic enough to go checking how long it has been done.

You're right about the second. That was probably unnecessary. Apologies to ronaldo7.

[lucky]

One of the variety of reasons for voting Yes is the hope that an iScotland will help create a more equal society that the UK.
For some, this IS a very good reason to vote Yes.

Creating a more fair Scotland is what we all want but by cutting corporation tax, airport tax duty and failure to support a progressive income tax system is what is being offered by the SNP

[BarneyK]

Creating a more fair Scotland is what we all want but by cutting corporation tax, airport tax duty and failure to support a progressive income tax system is what is being offered by the SNP

2016 will be the year of election for the first Scottish government. The SNP is not the main driving force behind this Yes campaign and it won't get it all its own way come 2016.

[ronaldo7]

It sounds like you are quoting from the SNP's white paper. Are you ready to admit that the Yes camp is using negative campaigning, trying to exploit peoples genuine fears about the coalition's welfare reforms as a reason to breakaway from the UK?

Nope, if I was, I would have posted a link:wink:

The reasons people may wish to start afresh are many, and varied, and that's for them to decide. For me, the Yes campaign is the most positive thing to happen to Scotland in many a year.:aok:

[sauzee_4]

This should lend a hand to anyone who's in a foreign land when we become independent and have no consulate facilities.
:wink:
http://wingsoverscotland.com/fear-of-flying/

Absolutely fantastic, what a poor poor show from better together

[sauzee_4]

You are kidding yourself if a) you think every future Westminster gov. will pursue austerity on the same level the coalition are and b) if you think a post-independent Scotland would not have to either raise taxes or cut public spending. Do you accept that poster is a form of negative campaigning?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scotland-s-economy-needs-austerity-after-yes-vote-1-3328912

Great. Cut public spending, raise taxes. What we will have is a government which cares about the wealth gap. Because the majority of the Scottish electorate do.

The current opposition and government Have it way down their list of priorities

(Somewhere below spending £100 billion on fighter jets, which happened recently by the way)

[sauzee_4]

I can't be arsed checking but it must be a fair few weeks since you actually contributed something yourself to this debate, rather than just posting links to other folk.

Since you can't be bothered checking, the link debunks the myth (created in the ad) that a Scotsman flying to Rio and losing his passport wouldn't be able to get home.

Said Scotsman would simply attend the Brittish Consulate (or any other EU consulate) and as an EU citizen would be entitled to the same treatment as a native of those countries.

This would be of course, if Scotland didn't decide to open one there themselves.

[sauzee_4]

It sounds like you are quoting from the SNP's white paper. Are you ready to admit that the Yes camp is using negative campaigning, trying to exploit peoples genuine fears about the coalition's welfare reforms as a reason to breakaway from the UK?

Ah come on Stranrear! Whether they are or not is irrelevant, they certainly aren't as negative as the No campaign's tactics either

I'd be sh****** myself if I wasn't so well-informed

[sauzee_4]

Creating a more fair Scotland is what we all want but by cutting corporation tax, airport tax duty and failure to support a progressive income tax system is what is being offered by the SNP

Ah well good job I'm voting Labour in afterwards then :)

Nothing to do with the SNP.

[Lost_Mackem]

If you get independence can we (the North East) please join you? :confused:

Got more in common with you lot than the bunch of utter kernts down south.

[ronaldo7]

I don't agree with your first point. I wasn't attempting to add to the debate. I was merely highlighting that I don't think posting links to someone else's opinion adds to the debate. To be honest, it was my perception/opinion but I wasn't going to be tragic enough to go checking how long it has been done.

You're right about the second. That was probably unnecessary. Apologies to ronaldo7.

Missed this earlier.:aok: I'm still working feverishly for information though:greengrin

[yeezus.]

The yes campaign has one poster add that is quite negative, big deal?

Good, an admission that it is a negative poster. It is blatant hypocrisy.

[yeezus.]

Ah come on Stranrear! Whether they are or not is irrelevant, they certainly aren't as negative as the No campaign's tactics either

I'd be sh****** myself if I wasn't so well-informed

*Stranraer* :greengrin Is that really your argument "we aren't as negative as the other side" this debate is becoming childish. Any time the UK gov. or a think tank (the IFS for example said austerity would have to be implemented post-independence) suggest a problem or barrier to an easy breakaway we get accused of "bullying".

[lucky]

It's not just one poster that reflects the yes campaign negatively. Comments like bitter together, project fear, democratic deficit are negative. It's no wonder the polls are showing the no campaign pulling away.

[steakbake]

It's not just one poster that reflects the yes campaign negatively. Comments like bitter together, project fear, democratic deficit are negative. It's no wonder the polls are showing the no campaign pulling away.

Sir, read the absolute guff that passes for comment on things like the Scotsman website every day and you'll realise that both sides are like kids fighting over the right to organise the primary school disco.

The whole debate: whether it's "bitter together" or personal insults with variations of SNP:YSNP, aggressive references to brigadoon and braveheart or whatever childish names people are flinging about shows we're a long way off from a constructive debate about our constitutional future.

Regardless of the result, no one is exactly going to come out of this on a moral high ground, though I suspect the triumphalism of the winning side will also be as obnoxious and decisive as the whole run up to the vote.

[snooky]

If you get independence can we (the North East) please join you? :confused:

Got more in common with you lot than the bunch of utter kernts down south.

Personally, I would have the border at Watford. :cb

[lucky]

Sir, read the absolute guff that passes for comment on things like the Scotsman website every day and you'll realise that both sides are like kids fighting over the right to organise the primary school disco.

The whole debate: whether it's "bitter together" or personal insults with variations of SNP:YSNP, aggressive references to brigadoon and braveheart or whatever childish names people are flinging about shows we're a long way off from a constructive debate about our constitutional future.

Regardless of the result, no one is exactly going to come out of this on a moral high ground, though I suspect the triumphalism of the winning side will also be as obnoxious and decisive as the whole run up to the vote.
I actually agree with you in that both sides have and can be negative but according to some on here yes are the good guys and no are the baddies, in fact it's as true and accurate as the film Braveheart 😄

[lucky]

Personally, I would have the border at Watford. :cb

Well we can leave it at Dover if you vote no

[ronaldo7]

It's not just one poster that reflects the yes campaign negatively. Comments like bitter together, project fear, democratic deficit are negative. It's no wonder the polls are showing the no campaign pulling away.


Whilst on the other hand the supporters of the No camp are threatening with Bayoneting people after the vote. The discussion in the newspapers has taken a bit of a downturn recently as noted by http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-kill-count/. Put these two words (Independence and Kill) into google and see what you get.

Or the threats being made on twitter http://wingsoverscotland.com/some-sort-of-threat/

Or even elected Labour councillors comparing the yes campaign with Blackshirts http://aworkingclassman.com/petition-labour-councillor-compares-yes-votes-blackshirts/

Their are bammers on both sides of this argument, some even have a pathological hatred of their neighbours, and fellow human beings:wink:

I'd rather heed the words from Margo... "The Margo MacDonald way is to recognise that you are dealing with opponents, not enemies. Not with ogres, but with fellow human beings with whom you can disagree, but must do so without malice.

"And where the exercise of mutual respect is a civilised corrective to uncivilised abuse - an abuse which, if unchecked by both sides, can so easily mutate into an irreversible, corrosive, malign influence in the conduct of public life in Scotland."

[JeMeSouviens]

It's not just one poster that reflects the yes campaign negatively. Comments like bitter together, project fear, democratic deficit are negative. It's no wonder the polls are showing the no campaign pulling away.

That's funny because I'm sure someone on here said polls weren't worth bothering about and the only one that counts is in September ... :wink:

btw, it's only 1 poll (ICM/SoS) that really shows "pulling away", although the recent Survation/Daily Ranger and Panelbase/Sunday Times did have tiny No increases so definitely better polling news for No in the last week or so.

"Bitter together" was funny for about a millisecond, "Project Fear" was an internal name used by No strategists and "democratic deficit" comes down to whether you believe Scotland is a country or a region.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well we can leave it at Dover if you vote no

I think you will find the border will continue to be north of Hadrian's Wall between Berwick upon Tweed and Carlisle.

In the event of a Yes vote it will be reinforced by our southern neighbours with renewed threats of border and passport controls.

[Fergus52]

It's not just one poster that reflects the yes campaign negatively. Comments like bitter together, project fear, democratic deficit are negative. It's no wonder the polls are showing the no campaign pulling away.

The no campaign has been way more negative in general though.

[RyeSloan]

Since you can't be bothered checking, the link debunks the myth (created in the ad) that a Scotsman flying to Rio and losing his passport wouldn't be able to get home. Said Scotsman would simply attend the Brittish Consulate (or any other EU consulate) and as an EU citizen would be entitled to the same treatment as a native of those countries. This would be of course, if Scotland didn't decide to open one there themselves.

But how do you know the Scotsman will be an EU citizen?

[sauzee_4]

Sir, read the absolute guff that passes for comment on things like the Scotsman website every day and you'll realise that both sides are like kids fighting over the right to organise the primary school disco.

The whole debate: whether it's "bitter together" or personal insults with variations of SNP:YSNP, aggressive references to brigadoon and braveheart or whatever childish names people are flinging about shows we're a long way off from a constructive debate about our constitutional future.

Regardless of the result, no one is exactly going to come out of this on a moral high ground, though I suspect the triumphalism of the winning side will also be as obnoxious and decisive as the whole run up to the vote.

Agreed. a lot of abusive behaviour on both sides of the debate, which shows us as a country in a poor light to be honest.

[sauzee_4]

But how do you know the Scotsman will be an EU citizen?

Good question, we don't. In that case option 2 (going to the Scottish embassy we'd be perfectly able to open there) would be the course of action taken. :wink:

[PatHead]

I can't go through all the thread but has anyone thoughts on how things would pan out if we vote NO and the UK then votes to leave the EU?

Would any NO votes reconsider and what effect would a large UKIP vote this week have on undecided voters?

[steakbake]

Good question.

Jim Sillars was given a similar scenario on question time a couple of months back. He was asked what would happen in the a 5 years after a no vote. His answer was along the line, we'd get to 2015 and 2017 and many people who voted no, would regret it. He's not a politician I particularly like to be honest but with that, I think he's absolutely right.

I don't for one minute believe the No campaign actually has something to offer. There will be talks about more powers - down the line. But I don't trust Cameron - a man whose party can come out with lines like "The Prime Minister is committed to the principal of publicising his tax returns", when asked 4 years after he promised he would when running in the election.

The LibDems - quickly becoming an irrelevance. A pityful sideshow who won't be forgiven for entering a coalition.

But my god, the alternative was 5 years of Brown which brings me to Labour. Directionless, leaderless, faceless, clueless and shameless - and that's just the names of the political dwarfs sitting on their front benches.

Milliband - no doubt intellectually an intelligent man - is a policy wonk who has lucked out a promotion too far beyond his charisma, thanks largely to a corrupt Union that saw him as the candidate most likely to not go getting any fancy ideas of his own.

Ed Balls is a train wreck of a shadow chancellor, who f****d the economy then spent the last 4 years having the shameless audacity to lecture people on how to run the national finances.

In Scotland, they've replaced the Kirk as the location of the kind of dry establishment conservatism you'd normally see in a bowling green membership committee. They've lost their vision, they have no radical agenda, no genuine platform at all unless it's entirely based on saying directly the opposite of the SNP, they fear any change that they aren't in control of (typical of Brown, for example) and probably regardless of which way the referendum goes, will lose the next Holyrood election.

The SNP, well, independence is their reason to be. I personally dearly wish the independence question wasn't in their hands and that there could have been more than two parties who support the principle. However, I'm
going for it because no change not an option. Promised change in exchange for my No vote just isn't credible. I do think that if it's a no vote, there will be another within 5-10 years and I think it's the only direction that makes sense for us to go.

[bawheid]

Great post steakbake. I agree that Scotland is on an unstoppable path to independence. If it doesn't happen this time, it'll happen the next. A bit like devolution.

[ronaldo7]

I can't go through all the thread but has anyone thoughts on how things would pan out if we vote NO and the UK then votes to leave the EU?

Would any NO votes reconsider and what effect would a large UKIP vote this week have on undecided voters?

We would continue with the austerity from Westminster with the rich getting richer and the poor kept in there place. Many of the arguments currently being made by the No camp now, were made by the anti devolution people back in 97. William Hague stated that “devolution would make no difference to schools, to hospitals, to jobs or to business. The tartan tax would lead to foreign investors saying no to Scotland.”

That didn't work did it.

Scotland has generated more tax per head of population than the UK as a whole in each one of the last 33 years. Scotland’s stronger financial position compared with the UK over the period 2008-9 to 2012-13 is equivalent to £8.3 billion, or £1,600 per person. We are not too wee, too poor, or too Stupid.

http://www.scottishindependencereferendum.info/toopoor.html

The number of independent states has risen dramatically in the modern era. Since the establishment of the United Nations in 1945, its membership has increased from 51 to 193 in 2011.

I have not heard any reason from the No camp as to why I should stay in the Union.

[lucky]

Really surprised that this women Tasmina Sheikh has achieved third in the ranking of nat candidates in the euro elections. She was in the Tories then Labour now the SNP. It seems that she will go to any political party to get selected and be elected. More about her than the people she hopes to represent

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1343298/Defector-to-SNP-is-political-butterfly.html

[ronaldo7]

Really surprised that this women Tasmina Sheikh has achieved third in the ranking of nat candidates in the euro elections. She was in the Tories then Labour now the SNP. It seems that she will go to any political party to get selected and be elected. More about her than the people she hopes to represent

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1343298/Defector-to-SNP-is-political-butterfly.html

I used to vote Labour at the turn of the century too. :wink:

[southfieldhibby]

Really surprised that this women Tasmina Sheikh has achieved third in the ranking of nat candidates in the euro elections. She was in the Tories then Labour now the SNP. It seems that she will go to any political party to get selected and be elected. More about her than the people she hopes to represent

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1343298/Defector-to-SNP-is-political-butterfly.html

Nothing any politician is prepared to do for victory should be a surprise?

Fortunately I'm not voting in September for the SNP/Labour or Conservatives.

[Moulin Yarns]

Really surprised that this women Tasmina Sheikh has achieved third in the ranking of nat candidates in the euro elections. She was in the Tories then Labour now the SNP. It seems that she will go to any political party to get selected and be elected. More about her than the people she hopes to represent

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1343298/Defector-to-SNP-is-political-butterfly.html

I wouldn't worry about it, if you get the vote you want this September she will be out of a job come 2017 when the Better Together lot vote for separation from Europe

[HarpyHibby]

Really surprised that this women Tasmina Sheikh has achieved third in the ranking of nat candidates in the euro elections. She was in the Tories then Labour now the SNP. It seems that she will go to any political party to get selected and be elected. More about her than the people she hopes to represent

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1343298/Defector-to-SNP-is-political-butterfly.html

14 years ago :rolleyes:

[Beefster]

I wouldn't worry about it, if you get the vote you want this September she will be out of a job come 2017 when the Better Together lot vote for separation from Europe

We get folk moaning on here about the SNP being equated with the Yes campaign so it's a bit rich to equate the No campaign with the Tories.

[Moulin Yarns]

We get folk moaning on here about the SNP being equated with the Yes campaign so it's a bit rich to equate the No campaign with the Tories.


Ok, I'm not sure where UKIP, Britain First, BNP et al stand on independence, but I'm guessing they would be in the Better Together camp, on the whole.

[southfieldhibby]

We get folk moaning on here about the SNP being equated with the Yes campaign so it's a bit rich to equate the No campaign with the Tories.

There is very little doubt that The SNP have consumed Yes recently and I don't like it at all.The evidence is there...where has Patrick Harvie gone?Denis Canavan?Jim Sillars?All we're getting just now is SNP msp/mp/mep on any significant TV stuff.It's a dangerous game The SNP are playing as initially Yes could legitimately say they were cross party or even no party, but that looks less so now.

BT are Labour/Tory/Lib Dem, there can't be any debate but the strength in Yes was they weren't party political, esp with Common Weal/National Collective/10:01/JimmyReid all on board.

[stoneyburn hibs]

If the SNP manage to get a good number of votes in the European elections, can we take any pointers from that for the Indy vote ?

[marinello59]

I wouldn't worry about it, if you get the vote you want this September she will be out of a job come 2017 when the Better Together lot vote for separation from Europe

Eh? The LibDems have had a major shift in policy then.

[Beefster]

Ok, I'm not sure where UKIP, Britain First, BNP et al stand on independence, but I'm guessing they would be in the Better Together camp, on the whole.

You responded to my criticism by doing the same thing again.

[VivaHiberña]

[...]

I don't for one minute believe the No campaign actually has something to offer. There will be talks about more powers - down the line. But I don't trust Cameron - a man whose party can come out with lines like "The Prime Minister is committed to the principal of publicising his tax returns", when asked 4 years after he promised he would when running in the election.

[...]

Made me think of this.

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/q71/s720x720/10292145_525399220915510_86593506263543441_n.jpg

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

[steakbake]

If the SNP manage to get a good number of votes in the European elections, can we take any pointers from that for the Indy vote ?

I don't really think so, to be honest. What I think will be interesting is whether UKIP will make any kind of mark here. If they do, I think there will be a reaction to that. If they don't, then the anticipated results down south will show a lot of things in a different light.

[yeezus.]

Ok, I'm not sure where UKIP, Britain First, BNP et al stand on independence, but I'm guessing they would be in the Better Together camp, on the whole.

They aren't involved with the Better Together campaign one bit.

[500miles]

They aren't involved with the Better Together campaign one bit.

Farage has been openly anti-independence.

[green glory]

They aren't involved with the Better Together campaign one bit.

In 2011 they openly stated their desire to shut down the Scottish parliament.

[yeezus.]

In 2011 they openly stated their desire to shut down the Scottish parliament.

Stating a desire to close the Scottish Parliament or be against independence doesn't mean they are involved in the Better Together campaign.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Stating a desire to close the Scottish Parliament or be against independence doesn't mean they are involved in the Better Together campaign.

They are now a party that has had major votes in the UK, their stance regarding Scotland now makes them part of Better Together.

[yeezus.]

They are now a party that has had major votes in the UK, their stance regarding Scotland now makes them part of Better Together.

It doesn't. UKIP may favour Scotland remaining part of the UK but they are not involved in the Better Together campaign at all.

[Moulin Yarns]

They aren't involved with the Better Together campaign one bit.


Because they have two issues


Get Britain out of Europe
Stop immigration


Britain will always be part of Europe, Geography dictates it, and Scotland needs immigration, but the rest of Britain doesn't

[Just Alf]

Because they have two issues


Get Britain out of Europe
Stop immigration


Britain will always be part of Europe, Geography dictates it, and Scotland needs immigration, but the rest of Britain doesn't

Also......

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/24/ebana6a4.jpg

[Future17]

UKIP is not part of Better Together and has, so far, shown no interest in campaigning with regard to the referendum on independence for Scotland.

As a side note, however, Alistair McConnachie has registered as a "permitted participant" in the referendum campaign. He is a former UKIP executive member and candidate. He also had a bit of a falling out with them some years ago over his denial of the holocaust. :rolleyes:

[yeezus.]

UKIP are officially excluded from the Better Together campaign

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/06/ukip-officially-excluded-from-scottish-referendum-campaign/

[lucky]

Panelbase poll for wingsoverScotland published in the record has Hibs fans in support of the No campaign. I knew I was not in the minority lol

[steakbake]

Panelbase poll for wingsoverScotland published in the record has Hibs fans in support of the No campaign. I knew I was not in the minority lol

Saw that as well. Not technically true though: don't knows and yes are the majority - but no has the biggest percentage.

[PatHead]

So looking at todays results if we want to come out the EU vote NO. If we want to stay in vote YES.

It also shows how out of touch we are with the rest of the UK politically.

[green glory]

The same BBC which gleefully promotes the racists of UKIP is the same BBC which gleefully promotes 'Better Together'. Wake up and #VoteYes

[ronaldo7]

I'm wi you hen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r31-lZEp2JQ&index=28&list=LLzuDRmmuiqab_dHH3LWE2kw

[HarpyHibby]

My 'Local Voice' piece for Yes East Lothian.

http://yeseastlothian.net/2014/05/27/local-voice-daniel-howie/

[ronaldo7]

My 'Local Voice' piece for Yes East Lothian.

http://yeseastlothian.net/2014/05/27/local-voice-daniel-howie/

:top marks:applause:

[yeezus.]

My 'Local Voice' piece for Yes East Lothian.

http://yeseastlothian.net/2014/05/27/local-voice-daniel-howie/

Q. And what will a Yes vote mean for you?

no more bedroom tax

The bedroom tax isn't a tax at all - it is a reduction in benefit for those with a spare room. Here is the Oxford English dictionary definition of a tax.

A compulsory contribution to state revenue levied by government on personal income and business profits or added to the cost of some goods, service and transactions

[ronaldo7]

Q. And what will a Yes vote mean for you?

no more bedroom tax

The bedroom tax isn't a tax at all - it is a reduction in benefit for those with a spare room. Here is the Oxford English dictionary definition of a tax.

A compulsory contribution to state revenue levied by government on personal income and business profits or added to the cost of some goods, service and transactions

When is a spare room spare?

Is it when you have equipment needed for your health, and you have nowhere else to store it?

Is it when you have a room for your child to stay over for the week end?

Or is it, if you have the cash then spare rooms abound.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/patrick-butler-cuts-blog/2014/may/23/bedroom-tax-if-you-have-money-as-many-rooms-as-you-need

[yeezus.]

When is a spare room spare?

Is it when you have equipment needed for your health, and you have nowhere else to store it?

Is it when you have a room for your child to stay over for the week end?

Or is it, if you have the cash then spare rooms abound.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/patrick-butler-cuts-blog/2014/may/23/bedroom-tax-if-you-have-money-as-many-rooms-as-you-need

There will have to come a time when you answer criticisms with answers and not more questions or links to another source. The "bedroom tax" is NOT a tax.

[Saorsa]

My 'Local Voice' piece for Yes East Lothian.

http://yeseastlothian.net/2014/05/27/local-voice-daniel-howie/:top marks and keep up the good work :thumbsup:

[ronaldo7]

There will have to come a time when you answer criticisms with answers and not more questions or links to another source. The "bedroom tax" is NOT a tax.

I know what the "Spare room subsidy" is, now would you mind answering the questions I've asked you.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuW6u0jnoFs&feature=youtu.be

Here a couple of convincing videos to vote no from the grassroots group vote no borders*cough* :na na:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/27/uk-cinema-chains-ads-scottish-independence-referendum?CMP=twt_gu

The power of people.

[ronaldo7]

A nice wee positive song tae finish the evening

http://vimeo.com/96523704

[danhibees1875]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/27/uk-cinema-chains-ads-scottish-independence-referendum?CMP=twt_gu

The power of people.

Is it just me that found some comments from both parties a bit childish? Better together saying people are cutting out mature debate just because they don't want to be harassed by political causes while enjoying a night in the cinema.
Also the yes campaign thinking the no advertising rule would only apply to no adverts...

On a side note: in which direction do people feel opinion will swing after the European elections?

Does it highlight that Scottish people simply are not politically maligned with English people? Ukip got about 10% up here and came out as "winners" overall.

Or does the fact they got the last seat show that views are more aligned than thought?

Or will the impact be zero?


For me,I fall into the first category and think that this vote has just reaffirmed my belief that Scottish views are not in line with the UK and our opinions are not being heard as forcefully as they would be in an independent Scotland

[yeezus.]

I know what the "Spare room subsidy" is, now would you mind answering the questions I've asked you.

If you know it isn't a tax why do you insist on calling it a tax? The answer to all of your questions is Yes.

Now here's a link for you, courtesy of the TPA :wink:

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/campaign/2013/03/bedroom-tax-tax-sticking-plaster-bigger-problem.html

[ronaldo7]

If you know it isn't a tax why do you insist on calling it a tax? The answer to all of your questions is Yes.

Now here's a link for you, courtesy of the TPA :wink:

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/campaign/2013/03/bedroom-tax-tax-sticking-plaster-bigger-problem.html

Gonnae show me which post where I call it a Tax?

Are you happy for the people who use their Spare room to keep their medical equipment to be punished by the "Spare room subsidy", or the one parent family to be punished for having a room for their child to visit at week ends?

Your link is over a year old. Their is new evidence out there after this Tory policy has been damaging families. I've highlighted one link but their's more if you look:wink:

You might want to be better together with these guys...Poor sods. Watch out though, as the link mentions the "Bedroom Tax".

http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/Households-hit-bedroom-tax-pushed-debt-fear/story-21147228-detail/story.html

[yeezus.]

Gonnae show me which post where I call it a Tax?

Are you happy for the people who use their Spare room to keep their medical equipment to be punished by the "Spare room subsidy", or the one parent family to be punished for having a room for their child to visit at week ends?

Your link is over a year old. Their is new evidence out there after this Tory policy has been damaging families. I've highlighted one link but their's more if you look:wink:

You might want to be better together with these guys...Poor sods. Watch out though, as the link mentions the "Bedroom Tax".

http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/Households-hit-bedroom-tax-pushed-debt-fear/story-21147228-detail/story.html

Sorry man I thought it was you - was aiming that at the fella interviewed by Yes East Lothian.

I hear a lot from Nationalists saying this referendum isn't about the SNP and Alex Salmond which is fair enough but I get the impression that you lot are trying to make it a referendum about the Conservatives and David Cameron.

I do think we're Better Together and have a chance to debate Tommy Sheridan soon with a bit of luck.

P.S. I will read the link in the morning :aok:

[ronaldo7]

Is it just me that found some comments from both parties a bit childish? Better together saying people are cutting out mature debate just because they don't want to be harassed by political causes while enjoying a night in the cinema.
Also the yes campaign thinking the no advertising rule would only apply to no adverts...:agree:

On a side note: in which direction do people feel opinion will swing after the European elections?


Does it highlight that Scottish people simply are not politically maligned with English people? Ukip got about 10% up here and came out as "winners" overall.

Or does the fact they got the last seat show that views are more aligned than thought?

Or will the impact be zero?


For me,I fall into the first category and think that this vote has just reaffirmed my belief that Scottish views are not in line with the UK and our opinions are not being heard as forcefully as they would be in an independent Scotland

It depends on whether we have the real figures coming out of WM or just more lies http://archive.today/bmsG3
I believe the Scots are have been moving away from the London centric parties since 2007 and will continue to do so.

[ronaldo7]

Sorry man I thought it was you - was aiming that at the fella interviewed by Yes East Lothian.

I hear a lot from Nationalists saying this referendum isn't about the SNP and Alex Salmond which is fair enough but I get the impression that you lot are trying to make it a referendum about the Conservatives and David Cameron.

I do think we're Better Together and have a chance to debate Tommy Sheridan soon with a bit of luck.

P.S. I will read the link in the morning :aok:

:cool2: Good luck with Citizentommy. You'll need it:aok:

[yeezus.]

It depends on whether we have the real figures coming out of WM or just more lies http://archive.today/bmsG3
I believe the Scots are have been moving away from the London centric parties since 2007 and will continue to do so.

They didn't in the 2010 General election I think you'll find. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/region/7.stm

[ronaldo7]

They didn't in the 2010 General election I think you'll find. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/region/7.stm

I should have said in Scottish Parliament elections. :aok:

[yeezus.]

I should have said in Scottish PARLIAMENT elections. :aok:

:greengrin That's better. I was proud to take part in the Dumfries and Galloway campaign in 2010 which saw Labour's share of the vote increase nearly 5%.

[ronaldo7]

Gonnae show me which post where I call it a Tax?

Are you happy for the people who use their Spare room to keep their medical equipment to be punished by the "Spare room subsidy", or the one parent family to be punished for having a room for their child to visit at week ends?

Your link is over a year old. Their is new evidence out there after this Tory policy has been damaging families. I've highlighted one link but their's more if you look:wink:

You might want to be better together with these guys...Poor sods. Watch out though, as the link mentions the "Bedroom Tax".

http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/Households-hit-bedroom-tax-pushed-debt-fear/story-21147228-detail/story.html


Sorry man I thought it was you - was aiming that at the fella interviewed by Yes East Lothian.

I hear a lot from Nationalists saying this referendum isn't about the SNP and Alex Salmond which is fair enough but I get the impression that you lot are trying to make it a referendum about the Conservatives and David Cameron.

I do think we're Better Together and have a chance to debate Tommy Sheridan soon with a bit of luck.

P.S. I will read the link in the morning :aok:

What's your thoughts on this bud?

[HiBremian]

Is it just me that found some comments from both parties a bit childish? Better together saying people are cutting out mature debate just because they don't want to be harassed by political causes while enjoying a night in the cinema.
Also the yes campaign thinking the no advertising rule would only apply to no adverts...

On a side note: in which direction do people feel opinion will swing after the European elections?

Does it highlight that Scottish people simply are not politically maligned with English people? Ukip got about 10% up here and came out as "winners" overall.

Or does the fact they got the last seat show that views are more aligned than thought?

Or will the impact be zero?


For me,I fall into the first category and think that this vote has just reaffirmed my belief that Scottish views are not in line with the UK and our opinions are not being heard as forcefully as they would be in an independent Scotland

For me, the euro election showed up the appalling influence of the media on a small, but sometimes decisive, section of the electorate. The debate around the indyref in Scotland has been, in the main, substantial, considered, and wide-ranging thanks largely to social media. The debate around the euros was much more mainstream media dominated, allowing ukip a much greater coverage than their pre-election position in Scotland warranted. The Greens warranted at least equal treatment, but were given precious little coverage as the media debate focussed on personalities rather than manifestoes. The result was, it would appear, areas of Scotland that had previously voted in large numbers for the green, open borders, europhile libdems now voting for the polluting, intolerant, eurosceptic ukip. Can anyone explain such a shift in voting, other than a piss-poor media telling a thicko minority how to use their "protest vote"?

Thankfully the influence of both the media and that minority of voters will be minimal in an indy ref that should see a much higher turnout.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[steakbake]

Patrick Dunleavy, one of the lead researchers from LSE on the UK government's paper on the financial costs of Scottish independence says his research has been "badly misrepresented"....

[JeMeSouviens]

Patrick Dunleavy, one of the lead researchers from LSE on the UK government's paper on the financial costs of Scottish independence says his research has been "badly misrepresented"....


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BosuQkiIIAAdT5p.jpg:large

[allmodcons]

If you know it isn't a tax why do you insist on calling it a tax? The answer to all of your questions is Yes.



I was proud to take part in the Dumfries and Galloway campaign in 2010 which saw Labour's share of the vote increase nearly 5%.


Funny that. Would this be same Labour Party that coined the phrase 'Bedroom Tax'?

[allmodcons]

Patrick Dunleavy, one of the lead researchers from LSE on the UK government's paper on the financial costs of Scottish independence says his research has been "badly misrepresented"....

'Badly misrepresented' being a case of taking his figures and multiplying them by 12.

[hibsbollah]

Today's bunfight over the competing economic projections are predictable but massively dishonest.

NOBODY knows what the economic implications of an Independent Scotland are. For the simple reason that we are part of the global economic and financial system and are therefore subject to the fluctuations over which we have no control whatsoever. Its the least we should have learnt from the events of 2008.

Until either side admits this 'unknowable', its best just to switch off when this aspect of the debate crops up.

[JimBHibees]

'Badly misrepresented' being a case of taking his figures and multiplying them by 12.

Quelle surprise. Quite funny the researchers comments being in part based on the 'chaotic' way the last Labour government set up new departments.

Quite disgusting the lies we are peddled with from in the main Westminster similar to 1979 and the press. BBC coverage is shameful in the emphasis clearly given to negative stories about Independence which isnt the same for postive stories. The University of West of Scotland research into their coverage was IMO absolutely spot on.

[JeMeSouviens]

Today's bunfight over the competing economic projections are predictable but massively dishonest.

NOBODY knows what the economic implications of an Independent Scotland are. For the simple reason that we are part of the global economic and financial system and are therefore subject to the fluctuations over which we have no control whatsoever. Its the least we should have learnt from the events of 2008.

Until either side admits this 'unknowable', its best just to switch off when this aspect of the debate crops up.

:agree: On the No side, 2 of the sources of the info had rubbished the ludicrously blatant misrepresentation of their work before Alexander had even given his speech! So we got pretty much flat out lies from No and then the usual fluffy, fair-weather-with-a-tailwind assumption from Yes. At least Yes' figures are within the realms of possibility though.

I think this ...

http://www.opendemocracy.net/freeform-tags/40-reasons

...has been a great series of pro-Yes articles so far, concentrating on the fundamental structural changes that independence would bring rather than the short term fluctuations of the policies of whoever's in charge at the time. I'd strongly encourage anyone making their mind up to give them a read as part of their research.

[Sergio sledge]

Today's bunfight over the competing economic projections are predictable but massively dishonest.

NOBODY knows what the economic implications of an Independent Scotland are. For the simple reason that we are part of the global economic and financial system and are therefore subject to the fluctuations over which we have no control whatsoever. Its the least we should have learnt from the events of 2008.

Until either side admits this 'unknowable', its best just to switch off when this aspect of the debate crops up.

:agree: I don't trust either figure to be honest. I don't believe that many people voting in the referendum will be swung by the promise of £1,000 extra in 15 years time, or the threat of losing out £1,400 per year. The main driver in people's voting intentions isn't going to be financial IMHO.

[JimBHibees]

:agree: On the No side, 2 of the sources of the info had rubbished the ludicrously blatant misrepresentation of their work before Alexander had even given his speech! So we got pretty much flat out lies from No and then the usual fluffy, fair-weather-with-a-tailwind assumption from Yes. At least Yes' figures are within the realms of possibility though.

I think this ...

http://www.opendemocracy.net/freeform-tags/40-reasons

...has been a great series of pro-Yes articles so far, concentrating on the fundamental structural changes that independence would bring rather than the short term fluctuations of the policies of whoever's in charge at the time. I'd strongly encourage anyone making their mind up to give them a read as part of their research.

Why isnt that a news story?

[JeMeSouviens]

Why isnt that a news story?

It made the front page of the FT.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BosuQkiIIAAdT5p.jpg:large

Bizarrely, none of our Unionist press picked up on it, can't think why not? :rolleyes:

Maybe it'll be in the Sunday Herald.

[ronaldo7]

Better together v The truth, I wonder if any of our BT hibbies have been delivering them:greengrin

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/05/better-together-vs-truth

[yeezus.]

Better together v The truth, I wonder if any of our BT hibbies have been delivering them:greengrin

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/05/better-together-vs-truth

I got one of those in my paper the last day but I also had a SNP guy delivering Yes Scotland papers while shying away from debate. All I asked him was "would you feel comfortable with the BoE setting an independent Scotland's interest rate?" He looked at me and said "some people will never be convinced. I must remember to take that "UKOK" sticker off my bedroom window :)

[marinello59]

It made the front page of the FT.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BosuQkiIIAAdT5p.jpg:large

Bizarrely, none of our Unionist press picked up on it, can't think why not? :rolleyes:

Maybe it'll be in the Sunday Herald.

I didn't manage to buy a paper today but I read about this on several mainstream online media sources this morning including the STV news app and Sky.
A spectacular own goal by the No side. I reckon a few more Don't Knows will be shifting to Yes now.

[HarpyHibby]

With regard to the 'bedroom tax' issue, you know that's how its referred to in the MSM and as another poster has alleged, it was coined by your Labour party. Regardless of whether it is a tax or not, it is putting vulnerable people at risk and I am completely against it. I think it's fantastic that the SNP is subsiding it to help those affected.

FWIW, my whole family are born and bred Labour supporters originally, with around half now voting SNP. However, I reckon most will go back to voting Labour after independence. I reckon I'll vote Green, but I've been brought up anti Tory and am from a working class family so Labour would probably always be my 'main' party.


I got one of those in my paper the last day but I also had a SNP guy delivering Yes Scotland papers while shying away from debate. All I asked him was "would you feel comfortable with the BoE setting an independent Scotland's interest rate?" He looked at me and said "some people will never be convinced. I must remember to take that "UKOK" sticker off my bedroom window :)

Quite often when we go out campaigning it is the shyer and less confident individuals who deliver the leaflets as this generally involves less confrontation. The person who delivered that leaflet will have his reasons for voting Yes but maybe just didn't feel confident enough to engage in a debate with a stranger, that's not to say his reasons are without substance as you seem to suggest.

I've mostly been doing the leafleting but I'm starting to move onto speaking to people on the streets and canvassing. It's pretty daunting but hoping I'll get used to it soon enough. :aok:

[yeezus.]

With regard to the 'bedroom tax' issue, you know that's how its referred to in the MSM and as another poster has alleged, it was coined by your Labour party. Regardless of whether it is a tax or not, it is putting vulnerable people at risk and I am completely against it. I think it's fantastic that the SNP is subsiding it to help those affected.

FWIW, my whole family are born and bred Labour supporters originally, with around half now voting SNP. However, I reckon most will go back to voting Labour after independence. I reckon I'll vote Green, but I've been brought up anti Tory and am from a working class family so Labour would probably always be my 'main' party.



Quite often when we go out campaigning it is the shyer and less confident individuals who deliver the leaflets as this generally involves less confrontation. The person who delivered that leaflet will have his reasons for voting Yes but maybe just didn't feel confident enough to engage in a debate with a stranger, that's not to say his reasons are without substance as you seem to suggest.

I've mostly been doing the leafleting but I'm starting to move onto speaking to people on the streets and canvassing. It's pretty daunting but hoping I'll get used to it soon enough. :aok:

That's fair enough. I get an easy ride on the doorsteps here due to the fact that Stranraer is traditionally a Conservative area.

[Moulin Yarns]

I got one of those in my paper the last day but I also had a SNP guy delivering Yes Scotland papers while shying away from debate. All I asked him was "would you feel comfortable with the BoE setting an independent Scotland's interest rate?" He looked at me and said "some people will never be convinced. I must remember to take that "UKOK" sticker off my bedroom window :)

My neighbours have these stickers on their cars. I often wonder why it doesn't have "But Scotland is better" added to it :wink:

[ronaldo7]

I got one of those in my paper the last day but I also had a SNP guy delivering Yes Scotland papers while shying away from debate. All I asked him was "would you feel comfortable with the BoE setting an independent Scotland's interest rate?" He looked at me and said "some people will never be convinced. I must remember to take that "UKOK" sticker off my bedroom window :)

And your thoughts on the Spare room subsidy/Bedroom tax?

Do you agree with it?

[allmodcons]

I got one of those in my paper the last day but I also had a SNP guy delivering Yes Scotland papers while shying away from debate. All I asked him was "would you feel comfortable with the BoE setting an independent Scotland's interest rate?" He looked at me and said "some people will never be convinced. I must remember to take that "UKOK" sticker off my bedroom window :)

I'd be happy to debate the point with you.

Who currently sets the interest rate that applies across Scotland and how much fiscal autonomy do we have under the present system of government?

As I’m sure you are aware, the BoE is (and will continue to be) the central bank for Scotland, as well as England, Wales and Northern Ireland and, as such, is an institution and asset owned by Scotland and the rest of the UK.

The BoE operates independent of government by setting monetary policy in accordance with the economic conditions across the UK. Why would a future Scottish Government fear the setting of interest rates by the BoE across the UK? If an iScotland should decide to share our pound in a sterling union with rUK, I’d have no problem with Monetary Policy being decided independently of government by the BoE. As it is now, we have zero representation on the MPC whereas an iScotland would (at least) have some form of representation providing us with a formal input into the governance and remit of the BoE.

Critically, an iScotland would have full control over fiscal policy. The Scottish Parliament at the present time is responsible for raising a meagre 7% of the tax raised in Scotland. Control over fiscal policy would provide the platform for full powers on tax, spending and borrowing in an iScotland. This Unionist line that we’d not attain proper Independence is just laughable. Everybody knows that we live in an interdependent world where many issues go way beyond the control of Nation States but, crucially, we’d be a Sovereign Nation State where important political decisions would be taken for Scotland by the Scottish Electorate.

In the event of a Yes vote, you might want to stand for a Scottish Political Party that looks to remove control of Monetary Policy from our central bank. Bottom line, the public in an iScotland will get what the public in an iScotland vote for.

[yeezus.]

And your thoughts on the Spare room subsidy/Bedroom tax?

Do you agree with it?

I don't actually agree with the Spare room subsidy man, I was drunk on here playing devils advocate. I stand by my point that it isn't a tax though :greengrin

[yeezus.]

My neighbours have these stickers on their cars. I often wonder why it doesn't have "But Scotland is better" added to it :wink:

:aok: I'll look into that!

[ronaldo7]

I don't actually agree with the Spare room subsidy man, I was drunk on here playing devils advocate. I stand by my point that it isn't a tax though :greengrin

Fair do's mate. I thought you might have been involved with the Tax payers Alliance:aok:

[JeMeSouviens]

I didn't manage to buy a paper today but I read about this on several mainstream online media sources this morning including the STV news app and Sky.
A spectacular own goal by the No side. I reckon a few more Don't Knows will be shifting to Yes now.

In fairness it turned up on the BBC site last night with suitable headline:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-27613876

[hibsbollah]

In fairness it turned up on the BBC site last night with suitable headline:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-27613876


Thats brilliant. Everyone he speaks to in the Treasury 'is 23 or 24 and don't know anything about the issues they are supposed to'. Thank the lord for our wonderful bureaucrat class :aok:

[JimBHibees]

In fairness it turned up on the BBC site last night with suitable headline:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-27613876

As with anything from the BBC it is the prominence or lack of that is the issue. If this had been the other way round BBC would be running it for weeks IMO such as Salmond's Putin comments.

[JeMeSouviens]

Among the No things that really bug me (in a shout at the radioy kind of way) is the "foreigners" thing as in, "I worry about my family in England, I don't want them to become foreigners".

I wish just once an interviewer would say, "do you, or does anyone you know have family in Ireland, Canada or Australia? Is it in any way, shape or form a problem that they live in a place with different political arrangements to you?"

My workplace has several people from Ireland, north and south. They are treated exactly the same by everyone.

[ronaldo7]

Another one bites the dust.


BT changing their choon:greengrin again. It's not longer, "you'll never be a member of the EU", to now "You'll lose all our special deals".

Here's a snippet.

No EU member state would have "a material interest" in an independent Scotland being outside the European Union, according to a new report.

The report, by the European Policy Centre think tank, also argued that the situation could cause "a legal nightmare" for other member states.

SNP MEP Alyn Smith called the report a "welcome breath of fresh air".

But the pro-Union Better Together campaign said Scotland could lose the UK's "special deals in the EU".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-27623271

[ronaldo7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IE1PEv7Qrj4

Great Ormond street hospital has it's say. http://archive.today/44BUn

Another one bites the dust.:greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Those pesky yes people are really hacking the tories off now.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/tory-wants-offensive-independence-poster-removed-1-3426282

[Saorsa]

Those pesky yes people are really hacking the tories off now.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/tory-wants-offensive-independence-poster-removed-1-3426282:greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting from Iain Macwhirter in the Herald, essentially his point boils down to do we have the cojones to be a real country?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/norways-challenge-to-scots-as-referendum-approaches.24338647


I don't want to contribute to our national vice of negativity but the question in September isn't really about the economics of monetary union or whether an independent Scotland would be in deficit or surplus.

It is about whether Scots have the determination and self-confidence to strike out on their own and take charge of their own affairs; or whether they would prefer a managed decline and an an apparently easier life, consoled by the cynicism and self-loathing showcased by the Unionist "Just Say Naw" campaign.

[JimBHibees]

Interesting from Iain Macwhirter in the Herald, essentially his point boils down to do we have the cojones to be a real country?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/norways-challenge-to-scots-as-referendum-approaches.24338647

He is absolutely spot on. Time for Scotland to stand on its own two feet rather than blaming the posh boy's club in Westminster for all it's woes.

[ronaldo7]

B&Q Chief Exec has several roles. #jobsfortheboys

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/ian-cheshire-appointed-as-dwp-s-lead-non-executive

[green glory]

Clermiston Gala Day yesterday. The Yes Edinburgh West stall was heaving most of the day. The BT stall was looking a bit forlorn.




12677



12678

[green glory]

If anyone's interested you can get these Yes Scotland tops, I got mine a couple of weeks ago. People keep asking where to buy them.

http://shop.yesscotland.net/yes-retro-scotland-shirt



12679



12680

[yeezus.]

Fair do's mate. I thought you might have been involved with the Tax payers Alliance:aok:

No I'm not a fan of the TPA at all! Apart from Labour I'm not associated with any other political group.

P.S. Why am I not receiving "quote notification" messages in my Inbox any more?

[sauzee_4]

Clermiston Gala Day yesterday. The Yes Edinburgh West stall was heaving most of the day. The BT stall was looking a bit forlorn.




12677



12678


I would urge all Yes voters to get out and get involved in this campaign. If the facts are explained to people in a clear and calm manner we will all come to a better conclusion.

At the moment there are still a few self confidence issues among the people I am speaking to.

The doomsday messages from the mainstream media must be countered with the strong persuasive evidence which is currently not getting aired on t.v

[HarpyHibby]

I would urge all Yes voters to get out and get involved in this campaign. If the facts are explained to people in a clear and calm manner we will all come to a better conclusion.

At the moment there are still a few self confidence issues among the people I am speaking to.

The doomsday messages from the mainstream media must be countered with the strong persuasive evidence which is currently not getting aired on t.v

:agree:

I spoke with an old woman in Port Seton on Saturday, she told me she was voting No as she thought she would lose her bus pass. Obviously I assured her that that wouldn't happen, but you've really got to wonder how she would come to that conclusion?! There's every chance a BT campaigner has told her so...

For any Yes supporters looking in, I would heavily encourage you to get involved! A couple of hours every second Saturday or so WILL make a difference. If you don't feel confident enough speaking to people on the streets or at the doors, you can always deliver leaflets. I got a cracker of a tan on Saturday whilst campaigning! :aok::thumbsup:

Even just striking up conversation with colleagues/friends/family etc, it all helps.

[yeezus.]

:agree:

I spoke with an old woman in Port Seton on Saturday, she told me she was voting No as she thought she would lose her bus pass. Obviously I assured her that that wouldn't happen, but you've really got to wonder how she would come to that conclusion?! There's every chance a BT campaigner has told her so...

For any Yes supporters looking in, I would heavily encourage you to get involved! A couple of hours every second Saturday or so WILL make a difference. If you don't feel confident enough speaking to people on the streets or at the doors, you can always deliver leaflets. I got a cracker of a tan on Saturday whilst campaigning! :aok::thumbsup:

Even just striking up conversation with colleagues/friends/family etc, it all helps.

She may not lose her bus pass but some sort of austerity would follow in the event of a Yes vote. By the way, I spoke to a voter who said "I don't want 100,000 more kids living in poverty because of Westminster"!

You've really got to wonder how she came to that conclusion? I assured her that wouldn't happen. :cb

[danhibees1875]

Wondering if someone can clear this one up. I've heard from a few people now who were born abroad and have lived in Scotland for a variety of years now suggest that they would not be allowed to stay in an independent Scotland.

I've never seen anything that would suggest this in an official capacity? ....

[green glory]

Wondering if someone can clear this one up. I've heard from a few people now who were born abroad and have lived in Scotland for a variety of years now suggest that they would not be allowed to stay in an independent Scotland. I've never seen anything that would suggest this in an official capacity? ....

There's nothing to suggest this officially or unofficially. One of the key planks of the Yes campaign and the parties who support independence is the welcome afforded to people born elsewhere but who reside here.

[yeezus.]

Anyone else boycotting the BBC News tonight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoPqRSXAfv8

This is cringeworthy.

[Hibrandenburg]

There's nothing to suggest this officially or unofficially. One of the key planks of the Yes campaign and the parties who support independence is the welcome afforded to people born elsewhere but who reside here.

Indeed, my son who was born abroad has been refused a British passport because the laws governing nationality in the UK are determined by the country of birth followed by the nationality of the mother. This would change in an independent Scotland.

[sauzee_4]

Wondering if someone can clear this one up. I've heard from a few people now who were born abroad and have lived in Scotland for a variety of years now suggest that they would not be allowed to stay in an independent Scotland.

I've never seen anything that would suggest this in an official capacity? ....

Really unsure how anyone could come to that conclusion.

If they choose to vote No UKIP might be happy to send them back on the first boat :D

(Joke for any BT voters watching!)

[sauzee_4]

Anyone else boycotting the BBC News tonight?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoPqRSXAfv8

This is cringeworthy.

I think the media coverage has been quite cringeworthy

Showing your displeasure at it certainly isn't.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think the media coverage has been quite cringeworthy

Showing your displeasure at it certainly isn't.

Was this reported on the BBC?

[marinello59]

Was this reported on the BBC?


You already know the answer. It wasn't reported by STV either and to be honest apart from the 'it's no fair brigade' what has it got to do with the Independence debate? It did look pretty pathetic. More sideshows and distractions rather thanmaking a real push to get the yes vote over the line.
Stop whinging about things that don't matter and vote Yes. (My new campaign slogan. :greengrin)

[Hibrandenburg]

You already know the answer. It wasn't reported by STV either and to be honest apart from the 'it's no fair brigade' what has it got to do with the Independ'ence debate? It did look pretty pathetic. More sideshows and distractions rather thanmaking a real push to get the yes vote over the line.
Stop whinging about things that don't matter and vote Yes. (My new campaign slogan. :greengrin)

I honestly didn't know because I've lost BBC since they changed the Sat footprint a few months ago. I did see coverage of it on German tv and even on the English language Russian news channel.

It is a little strange that international news agencies pick up on the story but our own don't/won't.

[Lewis77]

Originally wrote this in a mood on another thread but thought I'd post here.


I want to moan about me! Im so F***ing bitter at times! I believe this is partially because I am Scottish and believe (because what normal human wouldn't) that my country should be in charge of it's own Sovereignty. Really, what normal person wants their country to be ruled from another and with that other country's prosperity as a principle factor? No wonder so many of us Scots are f***ed in the head, as many of us have to walk around all day with the notion our nation is democratically/politically impotent! We have to walk around knowing that many of our fellow countrymen/women are conditioned by a media that is owned by and serves an Anglo elite, not Scotland or it's people!

Have any of you seen, 'Invasion Of The Body Snatchers' ? Well that's what it's like for those of us who share our lives with those of you who are brainwashed by this media into a "better together" way of thinking. It truly is the biggest hypnotism trick in History. A whole nation being hypno-walked through life in order to serve another and it scares the hell out of me! It really does! I have loved ones who think this way and part of me just wants to shake them and scream "Wake Up" ! This urge is not from a position of hate but rather a position of love.

I'm not ranting about being anti English or saying that those of you who do not believe in a free and Independent Scotland are f***ing idiots! No, far from that. I went to university In England, have lived and loved there and found the obvious, that there is good and bad everywhere, everywhere except one section of English society. That section being the English ruling classes, for they spawn the puppeteers that have so many of my compatriots brainwashed about who and what they are!

Look how our mindset is manipulated by the media, even the word 'free' in relation to our country is denigrated and ridiculed by them, so much so even pro-independence politicians rarely use it, when they should! Ask yourself why that word has been attacked? It's because that word is incredibly powerful and has been used throughout history as a force for good/positivity/right and in no way do those in Westminster want you to relate that word to Scottish Independence.

Ask yourselves, are we free? The answer is no! At the present time Scotland has been cast limited powers from the Westminster table in order to plicate. Do we have the democratically elected principle party of Scotland in charge of our affairs? No! What we have is the most hated party in Scotland, which has limited support here, in charge of our very being in the world. We need to embrace the word 'free' !

Beware of the media producing stories that twist and weave our way of thinking away from the issues, distracting us from the things of importance! I'll give one example of how they do this. I have informed you that I went to University in England. Those wishing to attack my belief in Scotland would pick up on this and argue some vacuous point like..."So if Scotland was independent you wouldn't be able to go to University in England".

This premise is completely ridiculous as thousands from the republic of Ireland go to university in England, as do many from around the world. Nevertheless the purpose it serves is to embroil us in a pointless argument distracting us from the principle point at hand. That being, Is it right that a country dictates it's own way in this world? The answer is of course yes!

We have seen that the no campaign (notice how they don't call it that, but that is what it is) has changed tack in the media several times. First of all they tried to scare us, which is the principle action of a bully and truly shows the absolute lack of respect they have for Scotland and it's people. Then they tried the, fake symbolic hand of love. This being rather akin to a rapist fondly stroking a victim's hair!

I am genuinely scared by what will happen if we don't vote yes. We still have a chance to build a fair and democratic Scotland. A model nation to inspire rather than deflate.

We as Scots almost have failure built into our psyche, built into our society, for failure is in our history as a country, the failure to stand on our own two feet without unwanted external interference. It's time to stand up, it really is!

God it felt good to let that out!

[yeezus.]

i think the media coverage has been quite cringeworthy

showing your displeasure at it certainly isn't.

cringeworthy

12688

[sauzee_4]

cringeworthy

12688

I don't think that quote mentions the media once.:confused:

Why do we spend £250 million pounds a year on nuclear weapons when 1 in 5 kids in this country live in poverty?

[yeezus.]

I don't think that quote mentions the media once.:confused:

Why do we spend £250 million pounds a year on nuclear weapons when 1 in 5 kids in this country live in poverty?

The above post was a different example of the puerile tweets coming from CyberNats.

Who said I agree with spending £250 million on nuclear weapons? I don't.

[sauzee_4]

cringeworthy

12688

Why should we reject the opportunity to have a parliament reflecting the views of the Scottish electorate?

Why did we spend £100 billion on fighter jets recently when our elderly are the 4th poorest in the EU?

Britain's wealth gap is twice as wide as any other EU country, will this change if we vote No?

Let's move the debate on a little:greengrin

[sauzee_4]

The above post was a different example of the puerile tweets coming from CyberNats.

Who said I agree with spending £250 million on nuclear weapons? I don't.


I never said you did mate, but this is our opportunity to get them to f*** !

[yeezus.]

Why should we reject the opportunity to have a parliament reflecting the views of the Scottish electorate?

Why did we spend £100 billion on fighter jets recently when our elderly are the 4th poorest in the EU?

Britain's wealth gap is twice as wide as any other EU country, will this change if we vote No?

Let's move the debate on a little:greengrin

In case you haven't noticed, we have a democratically elected Scottish Parliament and the SNP won a majority - well done.

You don't need to preach to me about what we spend on our military, I would do things differently but stay within the UK.

As for your third question, the IFS have already pointed out austerity would follow a Yes vote so maybe a wealth gap would still be as high after a Yes vote.

[yeezus.]

I never said you did mate, but this is our opportunity to get them to f*** !

Not a good enough reason mate to split up the union mate.

[sauzee_4]

In case you haven't noticed, we have a democratically elected Scottish Parliament and the SNP won a majority - well done.

You don't need to preach to me about what we spend on our military, I would do things differently but stay within the UK.

As for your third question, the IFS have already pointed out austerity would follow a Yes vote so maybe a wealth gap would still be as high after a Yes vote.

Would we do things differently if we stayed within the UK? Can we affect change?

Agreed, we have a democratically elected government, who have control over 'some' issues. It's better than nothing.

But defence issues are reserved for Westminste, among others. Why should we leave those powers in the hands of a government we rejected? And one which is likely to be right wing in nature for 50% of the rest of our lives?

I will accept your IFS comment as fact, although others I believe have contradicted it.

This is a long term decision. If there were initial austerity measures fair enough, because An iScotland government would have adressing the wealth gap at the top of it's priority list afterwards.

And if we are within the Union in 2016, would there be no austerity?

[sauzee_4]

Not a good enough reason mate to split up the union mate.

It 100% is for me.

[HarpyHibby]

Joan McAlpine chews up Jacob Rees-Mogg and ****s him back out. What a performance! :top marks

http://www.channel4.com/news/scottish-independence-referendum-mcalpine-rees-mogg-video

[Moulin Yarns]

A more equitable society is more likely in an independent Scotland which will stay in the EU than remaining in the UK and probably exiting the EU


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27675294

[Beefster]

This being rather akin to a rapist fondly stroking a victim's hair!

This sort of analogy would have shocked me a few months back. Now it just depresses me.

Anyway, back to the hyperbole, straw man and circle jerk...

[stoneyburn hibs]

Joan McAlpine chews up Jacob Rees-Mogg and ****s him back out. What a performance! :top marks

http://www.channel4.com/news/scottish-independence-referendum-mcalpine-rees-mogg-video

Watched that last night. Found to be supporting UKIP on their stance to scrap the Scottish parliament.

Keep sending them up Cameron.

[JeMeSouviens]

Broon can't resist a dig at his old pal Darling. :wink:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/gordon-brown-slams-westminster-s-currency-tactics-1-3430454

[JeMeSouviens]

This sort of analogy would have shocked me a few months back. Now it just depresses me.

Anyway, back to the hyperbole, straw man and circle jerk...

No comment on the Tories' DevoABitMore plan? After a quick scan (it's a fairly scant doc to be fair) it looks considerably more coherent than Labour's DevoNano and not enormously different from Ming's DevoPlus.

Of course, how much of any of these plans would survive in the huge post-No sigh of relief that the pesky Scots are off the agenda again for the foreseeable is anybody's guess. I can't really see how they play to the Unionists' long term advantage? They ramp up the asymmetry (a bigger West L Q) and will inevitably lead to further divergence between us and them. Seems like more slidiness on the slippery slope. I guess Scotland is sticking with the long term hard luck story where we declare independence the day after the oil runs out. :rolleyes:

[sauzee_4]

Joan McAlpine chews up Jacob Rees-Mogg and ****s him back out. What a performance! :top marks

http://www.channel4.com/news/scottish-independence-referendum-mcalpine-rees-mogg-video

Phenomenal

[lucky]

Huge turnout at the old Fruitmarket in Glasgow for the launch of Labour No campaign. Waiting on Johann Lamont and Gordon Brown to address the crowd

[Lewis77]

This sort of analogy would have shocked me a few months back. Now it just depresses me.

Anyway, back to the hyperbole, straw man and circle jerk...

Obviously over the top for comic effect but I believe I get your point? The fact that the analogy works is depressing?

Nevertheless, I am sick of the strawman tactic which those in power callously implement and that the hypnotised public then regurgitate in pseudo intellectual argument. We can see this distraction, this sleight of hand argumentative tactic in favor of the no vote being used by some in this thread, whether that be discussing finance or the military blah blah....

I do not believe that those in this thread that use this tack do so in a conscious machiavellian attempt to manipulate other people, as those in power do. I simply believe they, like many, have been hypnotized into that way of thinking.

Should a nation be in charge of it's own sovereignty? The obvious answer to the question is yes, otherwise what are you supporting, the use of Empire?

This all boils down to mindset for those of us in Scotland. Are You Scottish ? Do you identify yourself to be wholly of that clan, that nation? Do You identify yourself with that nation and it's culture and that nation and culture alone? Do you believe in Scotland as a nation?

OR

Do you see yourself as being Scottish and British (rather the same way that someone from Yorkshire will say he is a Yorkshireman and an Englishman). That Scotland is simply a region of the United Kingdom to which you have been born?

Now some may get annoyed here, but that is basically what it all comes down to!

I have never identified with this word, 'British'. If anyone has ever asked me where I am from, what is my nationality? I say Scotland or I am Scottish.

This brings me back to my previous question, should a nation be in charge of it's own sovereignty? Only an imperialist (basically an evil prick) would say no. This then leads me to the conclusion that many in Scotland do not see Scotland as a nation, they see Scotland as a region of the United Kingdom and this is how they morally justify wanting to remain under Westminster rule. They aren't bad people, they just do not believe in Scotland as a nation because what kind of prick would believe that any nation should be ruled over by and from another. Scotland can't have that many pricks living here? They just don't believe in Scotland as a nation. I do!

PS You can't have it both ways. You either do or you don't!


Also, if Scotland becomes independent we will be fine, enough with the bullying fear tactics! They are not true and it is morally wrong to implement fear. Grow some balls and say what you really believe in!

PS If you are simply a wee bit scared of what will happen to Scotland when we go Independent, don't be, we will be fine!

[Glory Lurker]

Huge turnout at the old Fruitmarket in Glasgow for the launch of Labour No campaign. Waiting on Johann Lamont and Gordon Brown to address the crowd

Sorry, Lucky, but do they think we are stupid? There's already a Labour for the Union, or something. is this different? Given Gordon Brown's involvement in the existing campaign, they must surely be the same. So it's a RE-launch, surely? Why are they having to launch it again? What went wrong? Why are they pretending it's something else?

[lucky]

Not a relaunch. Tonight's rally was to mark the start off the official campaign. It was under the United with Labour banner so don't know what your issue is.

[Glory Lurker]

Not a relaunch. Tonight's rally was to mark the start off the official campaign. It was under the United with Labour banner so don't know what your issue is.

Now it's explained, I'm good. Maybe the complete absence of this explanation by your party's media friends caused my confusion :greengrin

[lucky]

Now it's explained, I'm good. Maybe the complete absence of this explanation by your party's media friends caused my confusion :greengrin

Watch Scotland Tonight GB is on it explaining it now