Scottish Independence

[archie]

That is not the case.


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Examples? If the UKG decided to get rid of jury trials in Scotland then it would breach the Scotland Act.

[Ozyhibby]

Examples? If the UKG decided to get rid of jury trials in Scotland then it would breach the Scotland Act.

Would breach more than the Scotland act but they could still do it.


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[archie]

Would breach more than the Scotland act but they could still do it.


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You need to spell out how 'they' could do it.

[Ozyhibby]

You need to spell out how 'they' could do it.

The UK govt has the power to write any law they see fit so long as they have the numbers in parliament. They could disband the Scottish Parliament if it suits them. I’m not sure the point you are trying to make here?


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[archie]

The UK govt has the power to write any law they see fit so long as they have the numbers in parliament. They could disband the Scottish Parliament if it suits them. I’m not sure the point you are trying to make here?


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OK. So the mechanism is that they would have to change the Scotland Act before they could make the changes you said could happen. That's the case, but it would be a pretty nuclear option. As things stand right now, they cannot simply legislate on issues that are, under the Scotland Act, the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament. If they were to do this without changing the Scotland Act it would most likely end up in the Supreme Court. Agree?

[Ozyhibby]

OK. So the mechanism is that they would have to change the Scotland Act before they could make the changes you said could happen. That's the case, but it would be a pretty nuclear option. As things stand right now, they cannot simply legislate on issues that are, under the Scotland Act, the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament. If they were to do this without changing the Scotland Act it would most likely end up in the Supreme Court. Agree?

So they can do it? Glad we agree.


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[Jack]

Devolution being “fundamentally undermined”

https://www.gov.scot/news/devolution-being-fundamentally-undermined/

[archie]

Devolution being “fundamentally undermined”

https://www.gov.scot/news/devolution-being-fundamentally-undermined/

The legislation was required as a result of Brexit, to replace EU primacy. A more balanced perspective can be seen here: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publication/report/united-kingdom-internal-market-act-2020#:~:text=The%20steps%20the%20UK%20government,w orks%20in%20the%20long%2Dterm.&text=The%20United%20Kingdom%20Internal%20Market%20 Act%202020%2C%20which%20became%20law,the%20nations %20of%20the%20UK.

[Kato]

The legislation was required as a result of Brexit, to replace EU primacy. A more balanced perspective can be seen here: https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publication/report/united-kingdom-internal-market-act-2020#:~:text=The%20steps%20the%20UK%20government,w orks%20in%20the%20long%2Dterm.&text=The%20United%20Kingdom%20Internal%20Market%20 Act%202020%2C%20which%20became%20law,the%20nations %20of%20the%20UK.Balance showing the UK Govt taking powers from the Scottish Regional govt because of their idealogical brexit project.

Noy much different from the post you seem to be saying is imbalanced.

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[archie]

Balance showing the UK Govt taking powers from the Scottish Regional govt because of their idealogical brexit project.

Noy much different from the post you seem to be saying is imbalanced.

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Well I don't just post stuff selectively to support a point.

[archie]

So they can do it? Glad we agree.


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In the same way that the Scottish Parliament could scrap every Scottish local authority.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230502/b78059ed8d3aa3637a0176c5707b07b4.jpg

https://twitter.com/senatormarkdaly/status/1176978132580143104?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Kato]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230502/b78059ed8d3aa3637a0176c5707b07b4.jpg

https://twitter.com/senatormarkdaly/status/1176978132580143104?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHow dare you make a comparison!

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[Hibrandenburg]

In the same way that the Scottish Parliament could scrap every Scottish local authority.

And Westminster could overturn that decision.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230502/cc17dffebc018cbb8f4686466e6dd5d9.jpg
It’s great being in the UK. [emoji849]


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[degenerated]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230502/cc17dffebc018cbb8f4686466e6dd5d9.jpg
It’s great being in the UK. [emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYou can't compare countries that pay less with ones that pay more, it's like comparing apples with aardvarks or something.

[xyz23jc]

You can't compare countries that pay less with ones that pay more, it's like comparing apples with aardvarks or something.

You are Boris Johnson and I claim my £5! :greengrin:thumbsup::wink:

[degenerated]

You are Boris Johnson and I claim my £5! :greengrin[emoji106]:wink::greengrin

[JimBHibees]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230502/cc17dffebc018cbb8f4686466e6dd5d9.jpg
It’s great being in the UK. [emoji849]


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Brexit bonus. Confident the BBC will drill down into this will be on 24 hr news loop for the next week.

[JeMeSouviens]

OK. So the mechanism is that they would have to change the Scotland Act before they could make the changes you said could happen. That's the case, but it would be a pretty nuclear option. As things stand right now, they cannot simply legislate on issues that are, under the Scotland Act, the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament. If they were to do this without changing the Scotland Act it would most likely end up in the Supreme Court. Agree?

That's not actually true. By convention, they "normally" don't. But they absolutely can.


The Sewel convention
In section 28 of the Scotland Act 1998 (Acts of the Scottish Parliament) at the end add— "(8) But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament."

Good explainer here:

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/sewel-convention

[archie]

That's not actually true. By convention, they "normally" don't. But they absolutely can.



Good explainer here:

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/sewel-convention

There's also an engagement process. I'm not disputing that the UKG has primacy. But this spun out of commentators here suggesting that the Scottish Government wasn't part of the 'state'. I don't think the Sewel conversation changes my view that it is, for reasons set out above.

[JeMeSouviens]

There's also an engagement process. I'm not disputing that the UKG has primacy. But this spun out of commentators here suggesting that the Scottish Government wasn't part of the 'state'. I don't think the Sewel conversation changes my view that it is, for reasons set out above.

I've missed a few pages but the Scottish parliament (and by extension its government) is a subsidiary arm of Westminster licensed to exercise some of its power on its behalf. That's what the word "devolved" means. "Power devolved is power retained" and all that.

[archie]

I've missed a few pages but the Scottish parliament (and by extension its government) is a subsidiary arm of Westminster licensed to exercise some of its power on its behalf. That's what the word "devolved" means. "Power devolved is power retained" and all that.

That is, of course, true. But the 'state' takes many forms. The logical inconsistency of saying the Scottish Government isn't part of the state would be that changes in jury trials in England and Wales would be made by the state, while in Scotland changes in jury trials would not be made by the state. That makes no sense.

[Kato]

That is, of course, true. But the 'state' takes many forms. The logical inconsistency of saying the Scottish Government isn't part of the state would be that changes in jury trials in England and Wales would be made by the state, while in Scotland changes in jury trials would not be made by the state. That makes no sense.Splitting hairs, archie. The Scottish govt is obviously "part of the state". You originally said it was "the state" which is a tad different. "The state" itself being the body which has primacy.

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[archie]

Splitting hairs, archie. The Scottish govt is obviously "part of the state". You originally said it was "the state" which is a tad different. "The state" itself being the body which has primacy.

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We agree!!!!

[Kato]

We agree!!!!That the Scottish Parliament is merely an offshoot of the state rather than "the state"? Yes.

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[archie]

That the Scottish Parliament is merely an offshoot of the state rather than "the state"? Yes.

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Part of the state.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/stats_feed/status/1654131143019741184?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

26th is better than I thought. Good bit behind Ireland though.


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/stats_feed/status/1654131143019741184?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

26th is better than I thought. Good bit behind Ireland though.


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East Timor is 10th. Who knew? :greengrin

[degenerated]

Some interesting stats on a & e waiting times in here

https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2023/04/14/finally-nhs-england-sorts-dishonest-reporting-of-long-ae-waits-revealing-much-better-performance-by-nhs-scotland/

[ronaldo7]

Pro-independence campaign group Business for Scotland and think tank Common Weal have both been marked the highest 'A'*rating - as*all Unionist organisations have been given the lowest grade of ‘E’

The unionist think tank organisations include Gordon Brown's, Our Scottish future, and the dog food salesman Kevin hague's, these islands.

So much for transparency.

Where's the money coming from?

[Callum_62]

Some interesting stats on a & e waiting times in here

https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2023/04/14/finally-nhs-england-sorts-dishonest-reporting-of-long-ae-waits-revealing-much-better-performance-by-nhs-scotland/It's unfair to compare you know

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[Ozyhibby]

Pro-independence campaign group Business for Scotland and think tank Common Weal have both been marked the highest 'A'*rating - as*all Unionist organisations have been given the lowest grade of ‘E’

The unionist think tank organisations include Gordon Brown's, Our Scottish future, and the dog food salesman Kevin hague's, these islands.

So much for transparency.

Where's the money coming from?

We need to stop comparing.


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[archie]

Pro-independence campaign group Business for Scotland and think tank Common Weal have both been marked the highest 'A'*rating - as*all Unionist organisations have been given the lowest grade of ‘E’

The unionist think tank organisations include Gordon Brown's, Our Scottish future, and the dog food salesman Kevin hague's, these islands.

So much for transparency.

Where's the money coming from?
????

[degenerated]

So it wasn't just pots, pans and fancy pens that plod were looking for after all :greengrin26709

[Kato]

Is that not the SNP's Battle Wheelbarrow?

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[weecounty hibby]

Is that not the SNP's Battle Wheelbarrow?

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If I didn't know any better I'd say that the daily ranger has swapped sides. The last couple of front pages haven't been a good look for the polis or PF. Wonder if they've had a heads up that this contrived circus is heading nowhere?

[Ozyhibby]

If I didn't know any better I'd say that the daily ranger has swapped sides. The last couple of front pages haven't been a good look for the polis or PF. Wonder if they've had a heads up that this contrived circus is heading nowhere?

I think that if there is no charge here then Murrel and Beattie will be getting a fair old chunk of change out of this.


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[degenerated]

I think that if there is no charge here then Murrel and Beattie will be getting a fair old chunk of change out of this.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkEnough to lend the SNP a not inconsiderable amount of money and buy them a fleet of winnebago battle busses :hilarious

[archie]

I think that if there is no charge here then Murrel and Beattie will be getting a fair old chunk of change out of this.


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Why? The Rangers case was around malicious prosecution.

[marinello59]

If I didn't know any better I'd say that the daily ranger has swapped sides. The last couple of front pages haven't been a good look for the polis or PF. Wonder if they've had a heads up that this contrived circus is heading nowhere?

Or maybe they are just continuing to write about what has been served on a plate to them and you find the current reports more palatable? :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Or maybe they are just continuing to write about what has been served on a plate to them and you find the current reports more palatable? :greengrin

Almost certainly that’s the case and Police Scotland are willing to leak them something everyday. Wonder why?


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[archie]

Almost certainly that’s the case and Police Scotland are willing to leak them something everyday. Wonder why?


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Are you sure it's Police Scotland doing the leaking? The Daily Record seems very close to the current FM.

[weecounty hibby]

Or maybe they are just continuing to write about what has been served on a plate to them and you find the current reports more palatable? :greengrin
I don't find any of it palatable. It's either a targeted attack on the party, and individuals within it. Or they have genuinely been up to no good. Either way it is not good news.

[JimBHibees]

Are you sure it's Police Scotland doing the leaking? The Daily Record seems very close to the current FM.

Very close really ?

[Hiber-nation]

Very close really ?

Nah, he's havering :greengrin

[Kato]

Are you sure it's Police Scotland doing the leaking? The Daily Record seems very close to the current FM.HaHa

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[archie]

Nah, he's havering :greengrin

You obviously haven't read their coverage of Humza during the leadership campaign and since. They were also all over the nursery story. They were also the recipients of a number of leaks under the previous FM.

[cabbageandribs1875]

keep a light on for us Europe :) Le Monde: Humza Yousaf makes front page of French newspaper | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23508536.le-monde-humza-yousaf-makes-front-page-french-newspaper/?fbclid=IwAR1MpfT80VkNqTdmDqMabCyBTOPQ5pkl3m4oAA0W T4MZ0NDqLoLhSyqkZwg#comments-anchor)



https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/345253997_899050697841038_8952830333225456687_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=xuJRoNqzbzUAX-2cUEe&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfARzLw5hgoU4BJuPX93CUu_B3f5XyCaxS1G0t65b8HW zg&oe=6460162A

[connerg]

Belinda Carlisle. Great song in the late 80's or early 90's.

To a previous poster who called the Scottish government a circus. Standing/speaking up for yourself is not bad. Get off your knee's and stop grovelling.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/markmcgeoghegan/status/1656158317562019841?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

52-48


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[grunt]

GDP is not the only measure of success ....

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvvMdUraUAA4fgE?format=jpg&name=large

[Ozyhibby]

GDP is not the only measure of success ....

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvvMdUraUAA4fgE?format=jpg&name=large

You can’t just compare us with Ireland.[emoji849]


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[Jack]

You can’t just compare us with Ireland.[emoji849]


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Or anywhere else apparently. Too many variables.

[Bristolhibby]

Or anywhere else apparently. Too many variables.

Definitely not England either.

J

[degenerated]

Definitely not England either.

JGreece is, or was, acceptable as long as it's caveated with "without the sun"

Mind, that's probably changed now.

[One Day Soon]

And yet it was argued that comparing us to Germany for the purposes of a discussion on whether refusing another referendum was reasonable or not was decried.

Is it legitimate to compare Scotland/UK with other countries or is it not?

[grunt]

You can’t just compare us with Ireland.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvqyCFwWYAE1wYS?format=png&name=small

[Hibrandenburg]

And yet it was argued that comparing us to Germany for the purposes of a discussion on whether refusing another referendum was reasonable or not was decried.

Is it legitimate to compare Scotland/UK with other countries or is it not?

You can compare all you like but the formation of a unified German state and the UK were quite different.

[One Day Soon]

You can compare all you like but the formation of a unified German state and the UK were quite different.

So it is legitimate to compare our position with that of the German Lander. Good, that seems clear.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.cityam.com/revealed-brits-are-paying-the-highest-electricity-bills-in-the-entire-world/?amp=1

The UK is genuinely world leading. At last.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I've just finished a novel called Scotched Nation, a fictional account of post referendum political shenanigans. Worth a read as it's all plausible.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/eu_commission/status/1658021113517989888?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Jack]

https://twitter.com/eu_commission/status/1658021113517989888?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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Another brexit benefit. We're not included on that list!

[Ozyhibby]

Another brexit benefit. We're not included on that list!

A small mercy.[emoji106]


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[degenerated]

Hopefully this fud gets emptied next time round. 26731

[Kato]

Hopefully this fud gets emptied next time round. 26731https://twitter.com/Innealadair/status/1658167113406730242?t=kRTvZJoPWKa-AWVlviuEug&s=09

An English man in full Scottish Uncle Tom gear.

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[degenerated]

https://twitter.com/Innealadair/status/1658167113406730242?t=kRTvZJoPWKa-AWVlviuEug&s=09

An English man in full Scottish Uncle Tom gear.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkFrom a family of planters, the apple never falls far from the tree.

[Mibbes Aye]

Hopefully this fud gets emptied next time round. 26731


https://twitter.com/Innealadair/status/1658167113406730242?t=kRTvZJoPWKa-AWVlviuEug&s=09

An English man in full Scottish Uncle Tom gear.

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That was from a couple of months ago and the full context was that Brexit and Scottish independence were both divisive and that nationalism didn’t provide the answers to the challenges of today, let alone tomorrow.

Still, it will bring up a lot of the Yes brethren to full-on beelin’ :greengrin

It does touch upon an interesting point though.

Scotland, as many would define it is a rather arbitrary and new ‘thing’. The idea of nation states is very recent in the history of mankind, the idea of liberal democracy even newer. Do we really think that nationalism has much in the way of a shelf life? It seems to be one of the biggest barriers to addressing global problems and likewise one of the biggest causes.

[Kato]

That was from a couple of months ago and the full context was that Brexit and Scottish independence were both divisive and that nationalism didn’t provide the answers to the challenges of today, let alone tomorrow.

Still, it will bring up a lot of the Yes brethren to full-on beelin’ :greengrin

It does touch upon an interesting point though.

Scotland, as many would define it is a rather arbitrary and new ‘thing’. The idea of nation states is very recent in the history of mankind, the idea of liberal democracy even newer. Do we really think that nationalism has much in the way of a shelf life? It seems to be one of the biggest barriers to addressing global problems and likewise one of the biggest causes.Which version of "nationalism" do you mean?

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[Mibbes Aye]

Which version of "nationalism" do you mean?

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Please don’t tell me you’re talking about “ethnic” and “civic”. Please...

[Ozyhibby]

That was from a couple of months ago and the full context was that Brexit and Scottish independence were both divisive and that nationalism didn’t provide the answers to the challenges of today, let alone tomorrow.

Still, it will bring up a lot of the Yes brethren to full-on beelin’ :greengrin

It does touch upon an interesting point though.

Scotland, as many would define it is a rather arbitrary and new ‘thing’. The idea of nation states is very recent in the history of mankind, the idea of liberal democracy even newer. Do we really think that nationalism has much in the way of a shelf life? It seems to be one of the biggest barriers to addressing global problems and likewise one of the biggest causes.

Cole Hamilton has no problem with nationalism. He has UK flags all over his constituency shop.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Cole Hamilton has no problem with nationalism. He has UK flags all over his constituency shop.


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Does he? That's quite funny. I suppose he would argue that he doesn't buy into the whole 'reject separation makes you a British nationalist' thing.

I assume he is your MSP, is he any good? He seems to have boosted the Lib Dem vote whilst there. A very different demographic from when Lord James was repping at Westminster :greengrin

[Kato]

Please don’t tell me you’re talking about “ethnic” and “civic”. Please...Quite in insulting response.


I was asking what version you meant.

There is a spectrum, you've dismissed a couple of versions already.

What version of nationalism do you think the SNP seeks?

Which versions "aren't the answer" in a global economy

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[Mibbes Aye]

Quite in insulting response.


I was asking what version you meant.

There is a spectrum, you've dismissed a couple of versions already.

What version of nationalism do you think the SNP seeks?

Which versions "aren't the answer" in a global economy

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That was what Cole-Hamilton said. I said something different.

As for 'versions', I don't have a version. And I certainly don't speak for SNP members, I probably subscribe to Foucault in that it is post-modernist and a social construction.

As for "an insulting response", oh please. I asked a question sincerely hoping you weren't going to roll out the old stuff about 'civic nationalism' and how it''s actually okay. On reflection, you tend to be a better poster than that so maybe my alarm was unfounded.

But I'm genuinely curious - do you think that nationalism or indeed the nation-state offers a solution to the challenges our planet faces? Surely that's looking backwards not forwards?

[Ozyhibby]

Does he? That's quite funny. I suppose he would argue that he doesn't buy into the whole 'reject separation makes you a British nationalist' thing.

I assume he is your MSP, is he any good? He seems to have boosted the Lib Dem vote whilst there. A very different demographic from when Lord James was repping at Westminster :greengrin

Never met the man so couldn’t give a personal opinion. Most people I know who have had dealing with him are that he is a typical Tory who wears yellow to get elected. That’s not to say he hasn’t sometimes been helpful. He helped a mate with a small issue that he had. Nothing major but not nothing. I’m sure every MSP would have a similar story. Personally I know he would not be the type of person I could ever take to based on how people have described him to me.


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[Ozyhibby]

That was what Cole-Hamilton said. I said something different.

As for 'versions', I don't have a version. And I certainly don't speak for SNP members, I probably subscribe to Foucault in that it is post-modernist and a social construction.

As for "an insulting response", oh please. I asked a question sincerely hoping you weren't going to roll out the old stuff about 'civic nationalism' and how it''s actually okay. On reflection, you tend to be a better poster than that so maybe my alarm was unfounded.

But I'm genuinely curious - do you think that nationalism or indeed the nation-state offers a solution to the challenges our planet faces? Surely that's looking backwards not forwards?

Is there anything but the nation state on offer?


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[Mibbes Aye]

Is there anything but the nation state on offer?


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I'm with Charles Kettering on this one (even though he would be considered an environmental war criminal in our age)

"Our imagination is the only limit to what we can hope to have in the future".

I think the important point is that we all too often entwine ourselves to old and/or established ideas, and mistrust the new ones. It should be the other way around. I would guess the vast majority of posters on this thread were born no more than thirty years after the end of the second world war. Two devastating wars in the space of thirty years and a good few centuries of regular armed conflict preceding that, including the Thirty Years War, possibly the worst in relative terms. Yet western and central Europe has enjoyed relative peace since then because the actors abandoned elements of the nation-state to bind economically and socio-politically.

[grunt]

Yet western and central Europe has enjoyed relative peace since then because the actors abandoned elements of the nation-state to bind economically and socio-politically.

Which is what the SNP continually and repeatedly has promised to rejoin. Unlike the Tories and Starmer's Labour. Are you sure you're supporting the right party?

[Mibbes Aye]

Which is what the SNP continually and repeatedly has promised to rejoin. Unlike the Tories and Starmer's Labour. Are you sure you're supporting the right party?

The EU was far from perfect as an institution, though I firmly voted for Remain. But to take your point, I never heard a single thing from the SNP or the Yes lobby in 2014, or since, that reassured me we wouldn't be at risk of being absolutely ragdolled like Greece was.

The European situation is a mess for us IMO. But again, we chouldn't think of it as static. There's a natural evolution to bring in Turkey, the South Caucasus states and the North African nations. alternatively, there is acknowledging what's true - that the EU as it stands is a hotch-potch of arrangements, involving some, none or all of membership of the Council of Europe, the OSCE, the customs union, the Euro etc etc.

We were talking about hate earlier and something that really angers me about Brexit was that if Scotland did become independent, we wouldn't have the same heft as the UK did have. That seems unfair but we have ended up trying to make the most of it. And I think we can.

Anyway, you should be smoking a cigar and sipping a brandy. Do you not keep telling me Starmer goes back on his word? So when he says Brexit is closed, that surely means when he gets the keys to Number 10 on the Thursday we will be getting paid in Euros by the weekend :greengrin

[Kato]

Is there anything but the nation state on offer?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThere is in this country. The Sovereign Individual. With the Nat-C rally yesterday and Farage on newsnight attacking the Tories for not being "isolationist" (he means racist) enough they seem to be doubling down on their favoured distraction. The other option, leaving aside the theoretical, is conglomerates of nation states acting together. The biggest problem the planet has is climate change, some politicians in our govt think fracking is the answer to that, which is just another distraction put out as they don't govern the country in good faith. The answer to any global problem is co-operation, nation states are perfectly capable of that if they have good intentions towards their own populaces. That's not something I see in the current UK. The more wrecking the better for them and the more sovereign individuals can disentangle themselves from the social contract.

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[grunt]

Do you not keep telling me Starmer goes back on his word? So when he says Brexit is closed, that surely means when he gets the keys to Number 10 on the Thursday we will be getting paid in Euros by the weekend :greengrinWell of course I hope this is the case. But I'd rather not vote for someone who feels he has to lie in order to win over the electorate.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230524/6218b62f084f12b6b45fb02f7c9618d1.jpg
Support for Indy remains strong.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-support-down-after-nicola-sturgeon-resignation-but-on-course-for-more-than-40-seats-in-new-ipsos-poll-4155666

SNP set to lose seats though. Down to 40.


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[Andy Bee]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-support-down-after-nicola-sturgeon-resignation-but-on-course-for-more-than-40-seats-in-new-ipsos-poll-4155666

SNP set to lose seats though. Down to 40.


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Some other polls showing SNP losing up to 23 seats with all but a complete wipeout in Glasgow. With as much importance put on these polls I don't get how they get away with being so different. They're effectively meaningless.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-support-down-after-nicola-sturgeon-resignation-but-on-course-for-more-than-40-seats-in-new-ipsos-poll-4155666

SNP set to lose seats though. Down to 40.


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Yougov much worse for snp, a large poll aswel over 3.5k

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23542575.new-yougov-mrp-poll-predicts-snp-wipe-glasgow/

Humza Yousaf would lose nearly all of his Glasgow and Lanarkshire MPs, with his party winning 27 constituencies, down considerably from the 48 won under Nicola Sturgeon in 2019.

Losers would include the party’s deputy leader at Westminster, Mhairi Black, with her Paisley and Renfrewshire South seat heading back to Labour

[Ozyhibby]

Yougov much worse for snp, a large poll aswel over 3.5k

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23542575.new-yougov-mrp-poll-predicts-snp-wipe-glasgow/

Humza Yousaf would lose nearly all of his Glasgow and Lanarkshire MPs, with his party winning 27 constituencies, down considerably from the 48 won under Nicola Sturgeon in 2019.

Losers would include the party’s deputy leader at Westminster, Mhairi Black, with her Paisley and Renfrewshire South seat heading back to Labour

Ipsos tend to be most accurate though? Yougov not exactly useless though.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Some other polls showing SNP losing up to 23 seats with all but a complete wipeout in Glasgow. With as much importance put on these polls I don't get how they get away with being so different. They're effectively meaningless.

They are good for trends and poll of polls better. They matched the English local elections very well. Some on here said yougov was pretty accurate for Scotland. I think snp will come back a bit nearer election but you would be mad to bet against them losing seats

[Ozyhibby]

They are good for trends and poll of polls better. They matched the English local elections very well. Some on here said yougov was pretty accurate for Scotland. I think snp will come back a bit nearer election but you would be mad to bet against them losing seats

I think it’s almost impossible for them not to lose seats. 2019 was a cracking result for the SNP.
And 2021 Holyrood election was also an excellent result.
It will be very difficult for the SNP to match those results.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I think it’s almost impossible for them not to lose seats. 2019 was a cracking result for the SNP.
And 2021 Holyrood election was also an excellent result.
It will be very difficult for the SNP to match those results.


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There's levels though. Lose one or two understandable, lose 10 and you can't dress it up as anything other than a disaster.

Problem is all polls are travelling one way and haven't found their bottom so far. They need to and start turning back soon

[Ozyhibby]

There's levels though. Lose one or two understandable, lose 10 and you can't dress it up as anything other than a disaster.

Problem is all polls are travelling one way and haven't found their bottom so far. They need to and start turning back soon

I agree that they need to get a grip of the situation. It’s improving over last couple of weeks but they’ll need to wait until end of Police investigation. They still have 18 months till an election though.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Trident: MoD confirms more than 50 radiation leaks this year | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23545590.trident-mod-confirms-50-radiation-leaks-year/?ref=ebbn&nid=1457)

The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has revealed there were 15 recorded radiation leaks at Coulport and a further 43 at Faslane in 2023 as of April – but said none were considered “serious”.

pheeeww, thank goodness they weren't serious though :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

Trident: MoD confirms more than 50 radiation leaks this year | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23545590.trident-mod-confirms-50-radiation-leaks-year/?ref=ebbn&nid=1457)

The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has revealed there were 15 recorded radiation leaks at Coulport and a further 43 at Faslane in 2023 as of April – but said none were considered “serious”.

pheeeww, thank goodness they weren't serious though :agree:

Surprised they even tell us.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230525/da0ad47e6dd78a1f3ea4f902dba49cf0.jpg

From yesterday’s Ipsos poll.


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[grunt]

Anyone got an update on the police investigation into SNP finances? When will Nicola be sentenced?

[Ozyhibby]

Anyone got an update on the police investigation into SNP finances? When will Nicola be sentenced?

Still trying to work out who’s Amazon vouchers?


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[Mibbes Aye]

Surprised it's not been mentioned on here yet - AUOB calling Humza 'reactionary' and 'contemptuous'.

Anyone able to say whether that's fair comment? It's certainly strong language to use about our First Minister.

[cabbageandribs1875]

article in todays Herald, i won't believe it until state TV report it

Is Douglas Ross happy to see Scottish economy success?: Ian McConnell | HeraldScotland (https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/23548258.douglas-ross-happy-see-scottish-economy-success-ian-mcconnell/?ref=rss#comments-anchor)



https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/348915033_263991812854435_7534277831701974067_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=mrZ_EeXw0xUAX-uqPZc&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfBl2QL12MdatxyI3VVzuIv5LQPIbZYi4OJc4GOQyj9X UA&oe=6474AD4A

[Bristolhibby]

Yougov much worse for snp, a large poll aswel over 3.5k

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23542575.new-yougov-mrp-poll-predicts-snp-wipe-glasgow/

Humza Yousaf would lose nearly all of his Glasgow and Lanarkshire MPs, with his party winning 27 constituencies, down considerably from the 48 won under Nicola Sturgeon in 2019.

Losers would include the party’s deputy leader at Westminster, Mhairi Black, with her Paisley and Renfrewshire South seat heading back to Labour

Can’t see how Black would lose that. She’s a very popular MP.

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65719108

You can have devolution so long as you do the exact same thing as us.[emoji849]


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[Mibbes Aye]

article in todays Herald, i won't believe it until state TV report it

Is Douglas Ross happy to see Scottish economy success?: Ian McConnell | HeraldScotland (https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/23548258.douglas-ross-happy-see-scottish-economy-success-ian-mcconnell/?ref=rss#comments-anchor)



https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/348915033_263991812854435_7534277831701974067_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=mrZ_EeXw0xUAX-uqPZc&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfBl2QL12MdatxyI3VVzuIv5LQPIbZYi4OJc4GOQyj9X UA&oe=6474AD4A

Equity investment can be a good thing but it can be truly awful, it depends what we are talking about.

For example, many successful startups may have relied on venture capital to get up and running. Conversely, it was very fashionable for private equity to buy care homes (across the U.K.) twenty years ago. That was often disastrous and led to appalling outcomes.

That’s simply because equity investment is intended to generate profit. You can’t blame it for that, it doesn’t pretend otherwise.

[degenerated]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65719108

You can have devolution so long as you do the exact same thing as us.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk*Does not apply to viewers in Wales

26768

[Moulin Yarns]

*Does not apply to viewers in Wales

26768

https://www.gov.wales/new-drinks-container-return-scheme-2025-will-help-wales-improve-world-leading-recycling-rates

England and Northern Ireland won't collect glass for some reason.

[degenerated]

https://www.gov.wales/new-drinks-container-return-scheme-2025-will-help-wales-improve-world-leading-recycling-rates

England and Northern Ireland won't collect glass for some reason.And we aren't allowed to, but Wales can.

[Hibrandenburg]

*Does not apply to viewers in Wales

26768

Unfortunately the Scottish Government are trying to introduce policy and systems that will improve life and the environment in Scotland that are better than in the rest of the UK, the worst thing is that they're doing it on purpose.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't think glass should be included blanket. Pubs already collect almost 100% of glass, in homes its 74%, in cities its higher. Roadside/bottle bank system is already good

The top 3 countries in Europe for glass recycling rates all have Roadside collection. Only 3 of the top 10 do DRS

European container glass federation say the new DRS scheme could jeopardise a working system
https://m.packaginginsights.com/news/european-container-glass-federation-drs-could-jeopardize-existing-collection-and-recycling-systems.html

I believe for plastic bottles and cans it should definitely come in though

[degenerated]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65719108

You can have devolution so long as you do the exact same thing as us.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkhttps://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1662219354954694656?t=GUssRa7TQo8ZD1YvaOFcqA&s=19


It's all very confusing. The Tories up here demanded that glass was included, then the Tories in England are only allowing Scotland to do this if glass isn't included because of conflicts with the internal market. Yet, at the same time Wales are allowed to include glass within their scheme.

It's almost like this is nothing to do with environmental concerns or internal markets but just the UK putting Scotland in it's place.

[grunt]

It's almost like this is nothing to do with environmental concerns or internal markets but just the UK putting Scotland in it's place.
:agree:

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65731807

Confirmed that Scotland is allowed to pilot the English scheme with glass excluded. Sounds like the poll tax all over again.

[degenerated]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65731807

Confirmed that Scotland is allowed to pilot the English scheme with glass excluded. Sounds like the poll tax all over again.This is where I couldn't be a politician, if I was yousaf I'd tell them to blow it out their arse.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65731807

Confirmed that Scotland is allowed to pilot the English scheme with glass excluded. Sounds like the poll tax all over again.

Anyone heard from the Labour Party yet? Surely they would want to defend devolution?


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[marinello59]

This is where I couldn't be a politician, if I was yousaf I'd tell them to blow it out their arse.

Unfortunately Yousaf doesn’t know his arse from his elbow. :greengrin

[degenerated]

Unfortunately Yousaf doesn’t know his arse from his elbow. :greengrinBlow it oot yer elbow doesn't really carry the message as well [emoji1787]

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/23552739.new-hardline-conservatism-disastrous-devolution/


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[JimBHibees]

Anyone heard from the Labour Party yet? Surely they would want to defend devolution?


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Nope

[Just Alf]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/23552739.new-hardline-conservatism-disastrous-devolution/


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkA conference organised by a very right leaning American organisation, just imagine if a Chinese (or in days gone by) a Russian organisation tried to do similar?

[Ozyhibby]

THE Scottish Labour politicians who forged the devolution settlement would be “horrified” to hear their party’s position on the constitution today, former deputy first minister John Swinney has said.

The SNP MSP told Labour’s constitution spokesperson, Sarah Boyack, that the party’s former “commitment to the concept of self-government in Scotland [was] being shredded in front of our eyes” during a debate in Holyrood.

Keith Brown, the SNP’s depute leader, had tabled a motion calling on the Scottish Parliament to express “alarm at what it sees as the UK Government’s escalating disrespect for the devolved settlement”.

READ MORE: Lorna Slater: UK Government showing 'disregard for devolution' with DRS conditions

Brown’s motion listed a raft of examples of bills which he asked parliament to note were “proceeding without heed to the devolved legislatures”, including the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill, the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, and the Elections Act 2022.

It also specifically noted the Sewel Convention, saying that it “is now regularly breached by the UK Government”. This convention says that the Westminster government will “not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament”.

Speaking in the debate, former deputy first minister Swinney said there had been talk of cementing the convention in law, but instead “we got some token words that Westminster wouldn’t normally legislate over the heads of the Scottish parliament in the 2016 Scotland Act”.

“But look what’s happened since,” Swinney went on.

“It is now commonplace for this parliament’s views to be ignored by the United Kingdom government. That is not the settlement that was crafted in 1998.

“If we do not wake up to the threat that is coming our way as a consequence of all of this, then we will be witnessing the dismantling of the effective competence of this parliament.”

Swinney recalled having been a member of the House of Commons from 1997 to 2001 and helping to legislate for the creation of the Scottish Parliament.

He mentioned Donald Dewar, Scotland’s first first minister, and Henry McLeish, who he said had done the “heavy lifting”, adding: “I think they would be horrified by what has now become the Labour Party’s opinion in Scotland.”

Swinney said he had previously heard a “commitment to the concept of self-government in Scotland, and that is being shredded in front of our eyes”.


Boyack, Scottish Labour’s constitution spokesperson, accepted part of Brown’s motion, telling Holyrood: “The Tories have put massive pressure on the devolution settlement, particularly following Brexit.”

But she argued that the Scottish and UK governments were not working well together and that was the true issue at play.

Meanwhile, Boyack claimed Labour was focused on “rebuilding our relations with our European neighbours”.

The Scottish Tories’ constitution spokesperson, Donald Cameron, also accepted there was an issue with the Sewel Convention, but did not expand on his reasoning.

“I have no doubt that Sewell is under strain and needs rethinking,” he said.



Instead, the Tory MSP took aim at what he called “loose talk about a full-frontal attack” on devolution from pro-independence politicians.

“This is all they have left,” Cameron said. “The sound you hear is the noise of empty, empty rhetoric. The resounding gong and clanging symbol of nationalist grievance.”

Closing the debate, Independence Minister Jamie Hepburn said that the Sewel Convention was ignored by the UK Government as soon as it was “convenient”.

He also took aim at Labour, telling MSPs: “We have the absurdity of a Labour First Minister of Wales standing up for Scottish devolution more than the Scottish Labour party are prepared to do.”

Putting forward his motion, Brown said it was not just "bolshie Jock grievance mongers, as people like Jacob Rees-Mogg might describe us" that were raising concerns about the undermining of devolution.

"For example, former Labour first minister Henry McLeish, who I think would be appalled by at the absences on the Labour benches tonight, branded Tory moves to curtail Scottish ministerial engagement abroad as an attack on devolution."

Brown called on “all those who believed in devolution from the start and still do to unite and repatriate the power that’s been stolen from this parliament and the people of Scotland”.

In full, the motion read:

Protecting Devolution and the Scottish Parliament.

That the Parliament expresses alarm at what it sees as the UK Government’s escalating disrespect for the devolved settlement; highlights the report of the Parliament's Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee, The Impact of Brexit on Devolution, which identified "increased tension within the devolution settlement" since the UK’s departure from the EU; believes that the Sewel Convention is now regularly breached by the UK Government; underlines that legislative consent was withheld by the Scottish Parliament in relation to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, the Environment Act 2021, the Subsidy Control Act 2022, the Elections Act 2022, the Nationality and Borders Act 2022 and the Trade (Australia and New Zealand) Act 2023; considers that the Procurement Bill, the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, and the Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill are all proceeding without heed to the devolved legislatures; expresses profound disappointment in the use of an order under section 35 of the Scotland Act 1998 to, it considers, veto devolved legislation; expresses alarm at what it sees as the Secretary of State for Scotland's apparent unilateral rewriting of the agreed rules regarding requests for exemptions from the market access principles contained in the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020; considers all of these actions to be part of a pattern of undemocratic behaviour of attacks on the devolution settlement and the Scottish Parliament, and believes that these actions demonstrate the vulnerability of the Scottish Parliament while constituencies like Clackmannanshire and Dunblane, and Scotland as a whole, are under what it sees as UK Government control.


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[Ozyhibby]

Apologies, the above is a cut and paste job from the National on todays debate in Holyrood.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/thesnp/status/1663934352323928074?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/tennents-lager-owner-issues-warning-30124853.amp


Tennents says the tories changes to the DRS is unworkable by excluding glass it penalises products in cans.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/tennents-lager-owner-issues-warning-30124853.amp


Tennents says the tories changes to the DRS is unworkable by excluding glass it penalises products in cans.

Yousaf said the same thing yesterday. It hurts Scottish producers more than others. As usual.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/tennents-lager-owner-issues-warning-30124853.amp


Tennents says the tories changes to the DRS is unworkable by excluding glass it penalises products in cans.

If tennents move away from aluminium to glass then we all lose, don’t we? Aluminium is best for environment?


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[degenerated]

Yousaf said the same thing yesterday. It hurts Scottish producers more than others. As usual.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIs that not the plan, then they can blame the SNP and claim devolution isn't working. Their pals at the BBC and in print media will help spin it for them.

[Ozyhibby]

Is that not the plan, then they can blame the SNP and claim devolution isn't working. Their pals at the BBC and in print media will help spin it for them.

https://twitter.com/humzayousaf/status/1663973352673882112?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

And Labour silent on this attack on Scottish jobs?


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[degenerated]

https://twitter.com/humzayousaf/status/1663973352673882112?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

And Labour silent on this attack on Scottish jobs?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSarwar won't want to spoil his chances of becoming mayor of Scotland.:hilarious

[Stairway 2 7]

7 of the top 10 glass recyclers in Europe don't have DRS. People unbelievably still buy cans in those that have can DRS.

Glass is a success story in Europe without DRS a good article on it

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/opinion/glass-recycling-if-it-aint-broke-dont-fix-it/

A deposit on one-way glass packaging is today used in just six EU member states: Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Germany and Lithuania. In these countries, DRS schemes manage only 5% of the waste glass generated. According to the latest figures, Croatia, Estonia and Lithuania are also among the nine countries with the lowest recycling rates in Europe. In addition, the average cost of the DRS is €213 per tonne of waste collected. The average cost of EPR systems across the same countries is €94 per tonne. A DRS for one-way glass packaging results at best in marginal gains but at a very high cost.

Meanwhile, EPR systems, such as kerbside collections, bottle banks and other single stream glass collection systems, mean that all glass container types are effectively collected and recycled at the end of their life. Eight out of the 11 Member States with a glass recycling rate above 80% operate an EPR-only system

[Ozyhibby]

7 of the top 10 glass recyclers in Europe don't have DRS. People unbelievably still buy cans in those that have can DRS.

Glass is a success story in Europe without DRS a good article on it

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/opinion/glass-recycling-if-it-aint-broke-dont-fix-it/

A deposit on one-way glass packaging is today used in just six EU member states: Croatia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Germany and Lithuania. In these countries, DRS schemes manage only 5% of the waste glass generated. According to the latest figures, Croatia, Estonia and Lithuania are also among the nine countries with the lowest recycling rates in Europe. In addition, the average cost of the DRS is €213 per tonne of waste collected. The average cost of EPR systems across the same countries is €94 per tonne. A DRS for one-way glass packaging results at best in marginal gains but at a very high cost.

Meanwhile, EPR systems, such as kerbside collections, bottle banks and other single stream glass collection systems, mean that all glass container types are effectively collected and recycled at the end of their life. Eight out of the 11 Member States with a glass recycling rate above 80% operate an EPR-only system

Which may be good for them but we are managing only 67% recycling for glass so clearly we need to do better.
Eu rates are a good 10% ahead of us.
Everyone talks about saving the environment but as soon as they can see a potential inconvenience there is pushback.


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[Just Alf]

The annoying thing is the Tories in Scotland AND Westminster voted for and intended glass to be included in the DRS scheme... wonder why they've changed their mind re the Scottish one?

[Ozyhibby]

The annoying thing is the Tories in Scotland AND Westminster voted for and intended glass to be included in the DRS scheme... wonder why they've changed their mind re the Scottish one?

Scottish Tories pushed hard for glass to be included. This is all about cutting back on devolution.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Which may be good for them but we are managing only 67% recycling for glass so clearly we need to do better.
Eu rates are a good 10% ahead of us.
Everyone talks about saving the environment but as soon as they can see a potential inconvenience there is pushback.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Norways recycling rate rose 20% to 95% after DRS was brought. Glass wasn't included as they think kerbside is better and know the highest rates in Europe are kerbside, it also shot up to 90 odd %

I'm all for anything that works, I'm all for plastic and cans DRS

[Moulin Yarns]

Norways recycling rate rose 20% to 95% after DRS was brought. Glass wasn't included as they think kerbside is better and know the highest rates in Europe are kerbside, it also shot up to 90 odd %

I'm all for anything that works, I'm all for plastic and cans DRS


Not everywhere has kerbside glass recycling. I've got a trip to recycling centre for tomorrow with 2 boxes of glass (coffee and jam jars included 😉)

[Ozyhibby]

Doesn’t really matter about whether glass is right or not. It’s why can’t glass be included? What is the UK govt objection to glass over plastic or aluminium? How does including glass break the internal market law but the other two don’t?


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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347411244_1403009880491586_7152707490271924005_n.j pg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=urKhGE--sRcAX8RghQq&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfDtCZV7I03_gf4wXGcFl_SbJOm_fK-Xxtl63PNrt9ityQ&oe=647DEA62BET etfair 02"">


:thumbsup:

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-sold-out-uk-farmers-australia-trade-deal-uk/

How the UK sold out Scottish farmers.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Rest and Be Thankful: £470m tunnel to protect vehicles from landslips - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-65781089?fbclid=IwAR16kon1XRMuLBDPHVsdbA6Is8bdVTGp zcdPJJC7tJirZ6CbM2V92DZWFiI)



https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/179FD/production/_129956769_debris.jpg

[Moulin Yarns]

Rest and Be Thankful: £470m tunnel to protect vehicles from landslips - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-65781089?fbclid=IwAR16kon1XRMuLBDPHVsdbA6Is8bdVTGp zcdPJJC7tJirZ6CbM2V92DZWFiI)



https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/179FD/production/_129956769_debris.jpg

I've been saying that is the solution for years. It works in more mountainous regions than here.

[Stairway 2 7]

£470 million for a mile is that a typo

[Ozyhibby]

£470 million for a mile is that a typo

Probably not unfortunately. Civil engineering is expensive business.


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[Jones28]

Rest and Be Thankful: £470m tunnel to protect vehicles from landslips - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-65781089?fbclid=IwAR16kon1XRMuLBDPHVsdbA6Is8bdVTGp zcdPJJC7tJirZ6CbM2V92DZWFiI)



https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/179FD/production/_129956769_debris.jpg

That looks fantastic.

Something like this would have been done on the continent in the 70's.

[Stairway 2 7]

Probably not unfortunately. Civil engineering is expensive business.


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There can be zero complaints about Hs2 or crossrail anymore surely, the billions of growth will be worth much more per pound than this.

[Kato]

Probably not unfortunately. Civil engineering is expensive business.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt'll be worth every penny of the billion+ pounds it eventually costs.

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[Ozyhibby]

There can be zero complaints about Hs2 or crossrail anymore surely, the billions of growth will be worth much more per pound than this.

Doing nothing is not an option unless we want to close of a large chunk of the country. Infrastructure is expensive but necessary.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Doing nothing is not an option unless we want to close of a large chunk of the country. Infrastructure is expensive but necessary.


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Greens have entered the chat. I'm personally all for infrastructure projects, but I am pro hs2, crossrail, tram ect.

But their are loads that were going mental about English projects that I'm sure will be quiet if they are pro this

[Ozyhibby]

Greens have entered the chat. I'm personally all for infrastructure projects, but I am pro hs2, crossrail, tram ect.

But their are loads that were going mental about English projects that I'm sure will be quiet if they are pro this

I never travel that route but think the money well spent if I don’t have to listen to constant updates about it being closed.


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[Just Alf]

I never travel that route but think the money well spent if I don’t have to listen to constant updates about it being closed.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI know where S27 is coming from in a way.
Which budget is it coming out of?

It definitely needs done, 1.3 million vehicles use it annually.

I was pro HS2 when I thought it would come a good way north, less so now. I'm still bitter that the promises of getting on a train at Euro Central half way along the M8 and getting off in Paris were broken! .... not that I hold a grudge! :rofl:

[greenginger]

That looks fantastic.

Something like this would have been done on the continent in the 70's.

yeah, they could have put up 50 meters of the structure below Samsons Ribs in the Queens/Kings park in Edinburgh.

They chose to cover the place in wire mesh. :confused:

[Moulin Yarns]

yeah, they could have put up 50 meters of the structure below Samsons Ribs in the Queens/Kings park in Edinburgh.

They chose to cover the place in wire mesh. :confused:

Is that in Holyrood Park? Bloody royal family not willing to upkeep their garden!!!

[Mibbes Aye]

It's a bit of a blow for the landowner who owns Old Military Road. He's been paid nearly £1million for allowing it to be used over the last five or six years.

[Glory Lurker]

I know where S27 is coming from in a way.
Which budget is it coming out of?

It definitely needs done, 1.3 million vehicles use it annually.

I was pro HS2 when I thought it would come a good way north, less so now. I'm still bitter that the promises of getting on a train at Euro Central half way along the M8 and getting off in Paris were broken! .... not that I hold a grudge! :rofl:

Un aller simple pour Motherwell, si vous plaît.

[greenginger]

Is that in Holyrood Park? Bloody royal family not willing to upkeep their garden!!!

it’s Historic Scotland , a Scottish Government body than manages Holyrood Park.

[Moulin Yarns]

it’s Historic Scotland , a Scottish Government body than manages Holyrood Park.

Aye, and mesh netting is there to stop loose rocks from falling onto the road, it would be as useful as a chocolate fireguard at the Rest and be Thankful.

[greenlex]

Greens have entered the chat. I'm personally all for infrastructure projects, but I am pro hs2, crossrail, tram ect.

But their are loads that were going mental about English projects that I'm sure will be quiet if they are pro this
Not so sure. This is essential to keep connectivity for a chunk of the Scotland instead of a healthy detour every time there’s a closure.
HS2 is IMO a vanity project to get quicker connection measured in Minutes. Is that really needed in any part of the country when there’s infrastructure projects that are better merited on a health and safety basis alone for starters.
The cost of HS2 that might benefit England will be eye watering.

[McD]

Aye, and mesh netting is there to stop loose rocks from falling onto the road, it would be as useful as a chocolate fireguard at the Rest and be Thankful.


dont think anyone is suggesting mesh netting being utilised at Rest and be Thankful

[Moulin Yarns]

dont think anyone is suggesting mesh netting being utilised at Rest and be Thankful

Horses for courses. It works, so no need for the tunnel at Holyrood Park

[Ozyhibby]

Horses for courses. It works, so no need for the tunnel at Holyrood Park

Especially on a road that they regularly just shut for fun anyway.[emoji23]


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[greenginger]

Horses for courses. It works, so no need for the tunnel at Holyrood Park

It’ll be shut again for another six months soon enough when a few more rocks slip through the netting.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/glennbbc/status/1666443579550494723?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Another blow for devolution.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

aint that a fact :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/353671841_5886176161488422_301671978429287502_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=Xbczvuf9ND8AX_24Bhc&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfD68brLzC4K2JjrqRdpQ0R6CssKZw-n6vMR7H8FARgx5A&oe=648B8FC7

[TrumpIsAPeado]

aint that a fact :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/353671841_5886176161488422_301671978429287502_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=Xbczvuf9ND8AX_24Bhc&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfD68brLzC4K2JjrqRdpQ0R6CssKZw-n6vMR7H8FARgx5A&oe=648B8FC7

If Scotland becomes independent. It won't be via any legal routes, as there are no legal routes to independence.

[Ozyhibby]

I see Alba commissioned a poll which shows Yes ahead. I think that’s two in a row showing Yes ahead.[emoji106]


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[Steven79]

If Scotland becomes independent. It won't be via any legal routes, as there are no legal routes to independence.Just because it won't be seen as being legal in the eyes of the UK dosen't mean it won't be seen as legal in the rest of the world.

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[147lothian]

One thing is for sure the best vehicle for Scottish Independence is not the snp, they treated supporters like mugs with the indyref2 funds, then look what happened first the wheels came off the motorhome then the doors fell off, and the horn went weh weh. :na na:

[Skol]

If Scotland becomes independent. It won't be via any legal routes, as there are no legal routes to independence.

The vote in 2014 was legal.

[grunt]

The vote in 2014 was legal.
Indeed. Sadly we're not "allowed" to have another legal vote.

[Skol]

Build the support and there will be another referendum

[weecounty hibby]

Build the support and there will be another referendum
The support is there and that is exactly why there won't be another referendum. It was granted(still can't believe folk hear that and think it's ok) in 2014 because the unionists didn't believe for a minute that it would be successful

[Steven79]

Build the support and there will be another referendumJust like the brexit referendum then...

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[degenerated]

Build the support and there will be another referendumLike winning elections?

[JimBHibees]

Build the support and there will be another referendum

Says no one in any power at Westminster either red or blue.

[Since90+2]

Build the support and there will be another referendum

Do you genuinely believe the Unionist parties will allow a referendum when all the evidence points to them losing the vote?

Of course not, I don't think even you believe that.

[Ozyhibby]

Do you genuinely believe the Unionist parties will allow a referendum when all the evidence points to them losing the vote?

Of course not, I don't think even you believe that.

They don’t which is why they don’t say it.


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[grunt]

This is absolutely incredible to listen to.

Yesterday's Scottish Affairs Committee at Westminster, twat Allister Jack reads out a long list of times when SG ministers have spoken to overseas Governments about "reserved matters".

It's a list of times when SG ministers have said that "Brexit is crap". And he thinks they shouldn't be saying this??

https://twitter.com/HolyroodDaily/status/1668277706591444992?s=20 (https://twitter.com/HolyroodDaily/status/1668277706591444992?s=20)

[Keith_M]

aint that a fact :agree:

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/353671841_5886176161488422_301671978429287502_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=Xbczvuf9ND8AX_24Bhc&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AfD68brLzC4K2JjrqRdpQ0R6CssKZw-n6vMR7H8FARgx5A&oe=648B8FC7


Yeah, but can you really trust the word of someone who studied at a place called Brasenose College?

[Mibbes Aye]

Yeah, but can you really trust the word of someone who studied at a place called Brasenose College?

I used to enjoy reading his work in the Guardian, in the 1990s and up to about the time of the millenium. He wrote well on globalisation and environmentalism and he was brilliant on raising awareness of human rights abuses in Timor, I think - which ultimately led to the Australian Defence Force going in and restoring order.

Over the years he has descended somewhat into self-parody though. I also remember him in 2010, when he was butterflying about from supporting the Greens to Plaid Cymru and finally settling on the Lib Dems and saying people should vote for them at the GE that year. Thanks for that George, another enabler of the Coalition government.......

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Build the support and there will be another referendum

Support comes with momentum. Momentum that would come with the commitment to another independence referendum. By effectively refusing to commit to another independence referendum, Westminster prevents further momentum from building. The last thing they want is a repeat of the previous campaign when support went up from around 25% up to 45%. No referendum commitment = no campaign.

[Mibbes Aye]

Support comes with momentum. Momentum that would come with the commitment to another independence referendum. By effectively refusing to commit to another independence referendum, Westminster prevents further momentum from building. The last thing they want is a repeat of the previous campaign when support went up from around 25% up to 45%. No referendum commitment = no campaign.

“Blame the English”.

See what I did there? I saved you 54 words :greengrin

[Skol]

Do you genuinely believe the Unionist parties will allow a referendum when all the evidence points to them losing the vote?

Of course not, I don't think even you believe that.

Yep, of course. If we see sustained polling in favour then Westminster will not be able to refuse. Right now we see occasional and short term small majorities in favour.

[Skol]

Support comes with momentum. Momentum that would come with the commitment to another independence referendum. By effectively refusing to commit to another independence referendum, Westminster prevents further momentum from building. The last thing they want is a repeat of the previous campaign when support went up from around 25% up to 45%. No referendum commitment = no campaign.

Why should Westminster build momentum for independence. That’s about the most stupid thing I have read on here. It’s for the snp to build momentum.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Why should Westminster build momentum for independence. That’s about the most stupid thing I have read on here. It’s for the snp to build momentum.

They shouldn't. But it's clear that their motive for refusing to commit to another referendum anytime in the future is to prevent a revitalisation of the YES Campaign. Support for Scottish Independence never would have grown to the level that it did if a referendum hadn't been committed to in the first place. Westminster won't want to make that mistake ever again.

[Kato]

“Blame the English”.

See what I did there? I saved you 54 words :greengrinI see what you did.

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[JimBHibees]

Yep, of course. If we see sustained polling in favour then Westminster will not be able to refuse. Right now we see occasional and short term small majorities in favour.

Westminster have refused what would stop them doing it again.

[Skol]

Of course they could keep saying no. Clearly we will never agree on this as it suits your view to keep saying there is no legal route

It’s my opinion but I don’t believe Westminster could keep saying no If a clear and sustained majority are in favour.

Right now for the most part it’s less than 50% and so they are right to say no.

[Since90+2]

Of course they could keep saying no. Clearly we will never agree on this as it suits your view to keep saying there is no legal route

It’s my opinion but I don’t believe Westminster could keep saying no If a clear and sustained majority are in favour.

Right now for the most part it’s less than 50% and so they are right to say no.

Westminster parties have a history of calling votes they think they are going to lose, do they?

[Hibrandenburg]

Of course they could keep saying no. Clearly we will never agree on this as it suits your view to keep saying there is no legal route

It’s my opinion but I don’t believe Westminster could keep saying no If a clear and sustained majority are in favour.

Right now for the most part it’s less than 50% and so they are right to say no.

So there is a legal route, but only if Westminster decides to allow it. Glad we've cleared that up.

[Steven79]

Of course they could keep saying no. Clearly we will never agree on this as it suits your view to keep saying there is no legal route

It’s my opinion but I don’t believe Westminster could keep saying no If a clear and sustained majority are in favour.

Right now for the most part it’s less than 50% and so they are right to say no.Before the brexit vote did a majority exist for it?

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[Ozyhibby]

So there is a legal route, but only if Westminster decides to allow it. Glad we've cleared that up.

Yes, we need to convince a majority of English mp’s to vote for it.[emoji106]


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[Steven79]

Yes, we need to convince a majority of English mp’s to vote for it.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[emoji1787]

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/conor_matchett/status/1668904833238147072?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A


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[Since90+2]

Before the brexit vote did a majority exist for it?

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Check mate.

They thought it was almost guaranteed they'd win the vote. That's what they do.

The only way we are getting a referendum is by electoral chance that the SNP hold the balance of power in a hung parliament.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The only way we are getting a referendum is by electoral chance that the SNP hold the balance of power in a hung parliament.

Which wouldn't happen anyway. As the 2 largest parties at Westminster who pretend to be different would simply join forces (like they did in the independence referendum) to ensure the SNP can never hold the balance of power.

[Mibbes Aye]

So there is a legal route, but only if Westminster decides to allow it. Glad we've cleared that up.

Im fairness, Westminster is the legislature of our country, Kind of what happens in a representative democracy.

[Steven79]

Im fairness, Westminster is the legislature of our country, Kind of what happens in a representative democracy.Scotland is treated as a colony by London but I assume you are okay with this?

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[Mibbes Aye]

Scotland is treated as a colony by London but I assume you are okay with this?

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I reject your view that Scotland is treated as a colony by London, so it doesn’t really matter what I am or am not okay with.

What is ‘London’ even meant to signify anyway?

Is it just a glib generalisation based on the the fact that centres of power are often viewed negatively by those further away?

I can tell you there is no shortage of people in Inverness who feel like poor cousins to the Central Belt, when it comes to the SG.

And I can tell you that there is no shortage of people in Wick and Caithness more generally, who feel they get a raw deal compared to Inverness.

[Just Alf]

I reject your view that Scotland is treated as a colony by London, so it doesn’t really matter what I am or am not okay with.

What is ‘London’ even meant to signify anyway?

Is it just a glib generalisation based on the the fact that centres of power are often viewed negatively by those further away?

I can tell you there is no shortage of people in Inverness who feel like poor cousins to the Central Belt, when it comes to the SG.

And I can tell you that there is no shortage of people in Wick and Caithness more generally, who feel they get a raw deal compared to Inverness.

That's pretty poor MA , even I get that in this context London = Westminster Parliament.
Yer.no that daft :greengrin


On the rest of it, this is where I get genuinely confused ...

It's OK for Wick to feel they're getting a poorer deal than Inverness and for them in turn to have similar thoughts to Wick but in relation to Edinburgh/Central Belt but it's not OK for Edinburgh/Central Belt to have those same views regarding Westminster/London.

Apologies if I've misunderstood, my own preference is to have the maximum viable devolved government at Council level.
And for me, at least, independence is a step down that road.... only a step mind!

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/FreeThinker2030/status/1273899278658871298?t=H_JET3C66Ktib7THSqxWCw&s=09

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[Mibbes Aye]

That's pretty poor MA , even I get that in this context London = Westminster Parliament.
Yer.no that daft :greengrin

I know, but I think it is on other people to say what they mean rather than making sweeping generalisations. It's a bit like the Tories moaning about the Blob. Back it up, for heavern's sake.


the rest of it, this is where I get genuinely confused ...

It's OK for Wick to feel they're getting a poorer deal than Inverness and for them in turn to have similar thoughts to Wick but in relation to Edinburgh/Central Belt but it's not OK for Edinburgh/Central Belt to have those same views regarding Westminster/London.

Apologies if I've misunderstood, my own preference is to have the maximum viable devolved government at Council level.
And for me, at least, independence is a step down that road.... only a step mind!

I agree with you about genuine devolution - I would go further down than council areas. Some of them are based on decades-old assumptions and projections, even the most recent are what, thirty years old?

I'm not going into it at length because I did it a couple of times before to show why I thought there was a better way that wasn't the status quo and wasn't the nationalist goal. It was a very lengthy post! But based on my experience and understanding, and my opinon to be fair, I think you could extend participatory budgeting to a sub-council level, perhaps along the lines of where community councils sit, under the umbrella of a regional government - South-East Scotland, for example, based on Edinburgh, the Lothians, and maybe what are essentialy commuter dormitories now, in parts of Fife and the top of the Borders. Anyway thats too much detail.

I don't think independence is necessarily a step down that road. The SNP have talked loudly about localism but cut its legs off across the board. Council revenue-raising powers blocked, Police and fire centralised. Social care shfting from councils to ministers. One-year funding settlements. Disproportionate ringfencing. It's all a power grab away from local decision-making.

This also touches upon your other point about SG/HMG - when it comes down to it, most things that affect us on a daily basis - the schools oour chldren go to, the carers who look after our aged relatives, the GPs, dentists, nurses and consultants we see (if we are lucky), the roads we drive on to see them or the buses we take to see them, the state of the streets outside our windows etc etc etc all sits away from Westminster and under Holyrood anyway?

[Steven79]

I reject your view that Scotland is treated as a colony by London, so it doesn’t really matter what I am or am not okay with.

What is ‘London’ even meant to signify anyway?

Is it just a glib generalisation based on the the fact that centres of power are often viewed negatively by those further away?

I can tell you there is no shortage of people in Inverness who feel like poor cousins to the Central Belt, when it comes to the SG.

And I can tell you that there is no shortage of people in Wick and Caithness more generally, who feel they get a raw deal compared to Inverness.So why do we have a secretary of state for Scotland and not England?

Why do we have a devolved Parliament in Scotland but not in England?

If we really were a "union" of equals then...

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[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/FreeThinker2030/status/1273899278658871298?t=H_JET3C66Ktib7THSqxWCw&s=09

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That sort of thing reminds me of Stewart Lee, in Glasgow, doing his Braveheart routine.

You would have to be ridiculously thin-skinned not to laugh with Lee's jokes.

[Callum_62]

That sort of thing reminds me of Stewart Lee, in Glasgow, doing his Braveheart routine.

You would have to be ridiculously thin-skinned not to laugh with Lee's jokes.Yeah, totally the same - a stand up comedian and a politician in Westminster

There's more truth in that statement than first appears to be fair

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[Mibbes Aye]

So why do we have a secretary of state for Scotland and not England?

Why do we have a devolved Parliament in Scotland but not in England?

If we really were a "union" of equals then...

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First point - Scotland has a separate, similar but different legal system touching on many, many aspects of our lives. Prior to the Scottish Parliament you needed a department of civil servants to deliver policy in line with legislation. And if you have a department you need ministers to instruct the civil servants.

Second point - public opinion waxed and waned but increasingly grew to a desire for Scotland to have more decision-making powers. The Campaign for a Scottish Assembly was a pluralist group who argued for this and built up popular support. The CSA was superceded by the Consitituional Convention with support for devolution continuing to grow. New Labour, led by ony Blair made a devolution referendum for Scotland (and Wales and London IIRC) a manifesto pledge. Labour were elected and delivered the referendum. The people said yes in big numbers, yes to tax-raising powers in less big numbers and we had a Parliament (the actual building itself took a bit longer)

Third point - ....?

[Kato]

That sort of thing reminds me of Stewart Lee, in Glasgow, doing his Braveheart routine.

You would have to be ridiculously thin-skinned not to laugh with Lee's jokes.I can laugh at Lee's jokes, the Braveheart skit is ballsy given he told it to Scottish audience.

The people in the video aren't in Scotland telling their "joke" to a Scottish audience though so I don't see the relevance of your comparison. They are in the UK parliament.

Nothing to laugh "with", just a bunch of entitled twats revealing themselves.

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[Mibbes Aye]

Yeah, totally the same - a stand up comedian and a politician in Westminster

There's more truth in that statement than first appears to be fair

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It was her maiden speech in the HoC. Her constituency is the birthplace of Oliver Cromwell.

She actually apologised in the Herald for it afterwards, when the whole backlash thing started.

I'm Scottish by blood and birth and I thought it was harmless enough, a weak joke, nothing else. My only issue was the referencing to slavery which I don't think was appropriate, it risks making light of something which is as endemic today as it ever has been.

[grunt]

Only catching half this discussion. Is someone saying they find Lucy Frazer's speech funny?

[Mibbes Aye]

I can laugh at Lee's jokes, the Braveheart skit is ballsy given he told it to Scottish audience.

The people in the video aren't in Scotland telling their "joke" to a Scottish audience though so I don't see the relevance of your comparison. They are in the UK parliament.

Nothing to laugh "with", just a bunch of entitled twats revealing themselves.

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If only the one in four Scottish children living in poverty got the same level of knickers in a twist.

[Kato]

If only the one in four Scottish children living in poverty got the same level of knickers in a twist.Sorry, I'm not sure what you are on about there. Crap attempt at deflection, but on par with others you've came up with. Stewart Lee it ain't.

The speech is a disgrace and like many on that side of the house pandering to their base, reactionary leanings.

I'm pointing out she feels comfortable saying that about Scottish people in that chamber as it is seen by those in video as seperate from Scotland.

If an SNP mp said similar about English people I don't they'd be chuckling.

Why do you think the joke is taken so lightly by those in the video?

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[Smartie]

That sort of thing reminds me of Stewart Lee, in Glasgow, doing his Braveheart routine.

You would have to be ridiculously thin-skinned not to laugh with Lee's jokes.

Stewart Lee is hilarious, I love his Paul Nuttall from UKIP routine. Chucking national identity away for a second, I get the feeling that Stewart Lee would share a roughly similar set of values with the vast majority of people in Scotland therefore he's welcome to laugh with us and laugh at us as he pleases. As has been pointed out, it takes balls to do that to a Scottish audience, knowing that some may disagree.

Tory backbenchers can get firmly TF when they laugh at us like that. There's a world of difference between that snidey nonsense in the House of Commons and an edgy comedian coming and doing it to your face so you can laugh with him.

[Just Alf]

I know, but I think it is on other people to say what they mean rather than making sweeping generalisations. It's a bit like the Tories moaning about the Blob. Back it up, for heavern's sake.



I agree with you about genuine devolution - I would go further down than council areas. Some of them are based on decades-old assumptions and projections, even the most recent are what, thirty years old?

I'm not going into it at length because I did it a couple of times before to show why I thought there was a better way that wasn't the status quo and wasn't the nationalist goal. It was a very lengthy post! But based on my experience and understanding, and my opinon to be fair, I think you could extend participatory budgeting to a sub-council level, perhaps along the lines of where community councils sit, under the umbrella of a regional government - South-East Scotland, for example, based on Edinburgh, the Lothians, and maybe what are essentialy commuter dormitories now, in parts of Fife and the top of the Borders. Anyway thats too much detail.

I don't think independence is necessarily a step down that road. The SNP have talked loudly about localism but cut its legs off across the board. Council revenue-raising powers blocked, Police and fire centralised. Social care shfting from councils to ministers. One-year funding settlements. Disproportionate ringfencing. It's all a power grab away from local decision-making.

This also touches upon your other point about SG/HMG - when it comes down to it, most things that affect us on a daily basis - the schools oour chldren go to, the carers who look after our aged relatives, the GPs, dentists, nurses and consultants we see (if we are lucky), the roads we drive on to see them or the buses we take to see them, the state of the streets outside our windows etc etc etc all sits away from Westminster and under Holyrood anyway?Thanks Mibbes Aye, that all makes sense and much we agree on.

I hesitate to think what your 'long' post was like if this is your short version! :greengrin

[lapsedhibee]

Only catching half this discussion. Is someone saying they find Lucy Frazer's speech funny?

It's a bit like a Stewart Lee routine, in that it's available on youtube and there are people in it laughing.

[Mibbes Aye]

Thanks Mibbes Aye, that all makes sense and much we agree on.

I hesitate to think what your 'long' post was like if this is your short version! :greengrin

It didn't quite break the internet but it near enough broke me :greengrin

[Smartie]

Thanks Mibbes Aye, that all makes sense and much we agree on.

I hesitate to think what your 'long' post was like if this is your short version! :greengrin

As someone who disagrees with MA on the independence question, his "long version" is actually very thought provoking and appealing as an alternative to all the options that are currently on the table.

I'd heartily endorse him getting that version back out again at some point, although maybe not if the process were to finally break him.

[Skol]

Oh what an oppressed nation we are.

[JimBHibees]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you are on about there. Crap attempt at deflection, but on par with others you've came up with. Stewart Lee it ain't.

The speech is a disgrace and like many on that side of the house pandering to their base, reactionary leanings.

I'm pointing out she feels comfortable saying that about Scottish people in that chamber as it is seen by those in video as seperate from Scotland.

If an SNP mp said similar about English people I don't they'd be chuckling.

Why do you think the joke is taken so lightly by those in the video?

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If an SNP mp said similar about English folk it would be first item on news at ten and front page of the newspapers

[Kato]

Oh what an oppressed nation we are.The UK? Yup.

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[Skol]

https://robinmcalpine.org/as-the-laughter-grows-and-grows-can-anyone-end-the-joke/

[StevieC]

I don't think independence is necessarily a step down that road. The SNP have talked loudly about localism but cut its legs off across the board. Council revenue-raising powers blocked, Police and fire centralised. Social care shfting from councils to ministers. One-year funding settlements. Disproportionate ringfencing. It's all a power grab away from local decision-making.

I don’t normally post much on here these days, for some reason I’ve got less political after I became more political 😏 if you kinda know what I mean 😉

I might agree that Independence isn’t necessarily a step down that road (although get that there could be reasoned arguments that it is) .. but if we are talking about the here and now then I can’t agree with what you threw in after that statement.

I could go into it in more detail (if I wasn’t so busy with all the work I’m doing at local government level 😉) but I suspect I’d be wasting what little free time I have these days.

[Mibbes Aye]

I don’t normally post much on here these days, for some reason I’ve got less political after I became more political �� if you kinda know what I mean ��

I might agree that Independence isn’t necessarily a step down that road (although get that there could be reasoned arguments that it is) .. but if we are talking about the here and now then I can’t agree with what you threw in after that statement.

I could go into it in more detail (if I wasn’t so busy with all the work I’m doing at local government level ��) but I suspect I’d be wasting what little free time I have these days.

If you mean the bit I said about social care and buses and streets and stuff, I think you are right and I worded it clumsily.

I've posted before that the biggest impact on most people's lives, especially vulnerable people, in Scotland has sat with local authorities and the territorial health boards. I'm sure you are no stranger to people talking about services they value and need but dont know that they are supports that the council provides or pays for.

It got caught up in another point about the shift to the centre. No doubt you will know Perth and Kinross Health and Social Care Partnership well, you might be one of the elected members with voting riights on the IJB. The proposals to reorganise social care are a good example of a power grab - COSLA, SOLACE and the unions have found common ground there I think.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

If an SNP mp said similar about English folk it would be first item on news at ten and front page of the newspapers

:agree:

Running with the "independence supporters are all anglophobes" angle. But it's just a harmless laugh when Westminster ramble on about those sweaty socks under their thumb.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230616/2404bd4208388b9cccffde791f173520.jpg
Support for Indy remains solid.


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[The Modfather]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230616/2404bd4208388b9cccffde791f173520.jpg
Support for Indy remains solid.


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We should have a referendum every year until No can prove their isn’t support for independence by consistently polling 60% plus.

[WeeRussell]

If only the one in four Scottish children living in poverty got the same level of knickers in a twist.

All those long-winded condescending attempts at grandeur are somewhat let down by bizarre and totally irrelevant replies like this.

[StevieC]

If you mean the bit I said about social care and buses and streets and stuff, I think you are right and I worded it clumsily.

I've posted before that the biggest impact on most people's lives, especially vulnerable people, in Scotland has sat with local authorities and the territorial health boards. I'm sure you are no stranger to people talking about services they value and need but dont know that they are supports that the council provides or pays for.

It got caught up in another point about the shift to the centre. No doubt you will know Perth and Kinross Health and Social Care Partnership well, you might be one of the elected members with voting riights on the IJB. The proposals to reorganise social care are a good example of a power grab - COSLA, SOLACE and the unions have found common ground there I think.

I’m not on the IJB, but I’m on the committee for Environment and also vice-convener on Education, which is a huge responsibility and encompasses so much more than just schools and teaching. There’s a huge amount of work around additional support needs, attainment, positive destinations and linking that in with families, support and fighting poverty. On top of that you have an SNP led administration that is focussed on making serious changes at local level (right down to trying to change a “council mindset” that has been endemic for years).

This is why I challenged your earlier statement on the Scottish Government v Local Authority. Power still lies with Local Authority (assuming you have a committed local authority focused on making a difference) and the limits are around budget constraints, not Scottish Government interference.

Oh, I’m also the Council administration representative on Live Active Leisure, who were on the news recently around possible closure of the Perth Leisure Pool and the Dewars Centre (the hub for Scottish curling). Both of which were averted (for the time being) because of the Council Administration and their focus on health and well being.

[Mibbes Aye]

I’m not on the IJB, but I’m on the committee for Environment and also vice-convener on Education, which is a huge responsibility and encompasses so much more than just schools and teaching. There’s a huge amount of work around additional support needs, attainment, positive destinations and linking that in with families, support and fighting poverty. On top of that you have an SNP led administration that is focussed on making serious changes at local level (right down to trying to change a “council mindset” that has been endemic for years).

This is why I challenged your earlier statement on the Scottish Government v Local Authority. Power still lies with Local Authority (assuming you have a committed local authority focused on making a difference) and the limits are around budget constraints, not Scottish Government interference.

Oh, I’m also the Council administration representative on Live Active Leisure, who were on the news recently around possible closure of the Perth Leisure Pool and the Dewars Centre (the hub for Scottish curling). Both of which were averted (for the time being) because of the Council Administration and their focus on health and well being.

So, do you know what Humza meant by a 'wellbeing economy then? :greengrin

I think councils and their community planning partners play a vital role in all our lives but a lot of services have suffered, withered even, as a consequence of a number of things - increasing demands in social care due to demographic pressure, inflation driving up staffing costs etc etc, but also policy decisions from the centre. The problem for local authorities is, as you know, that education and social care are the two biggest spends and to an extent your hands are tied because they cover services that you have to deliver.

Services that are early intervention or preventative have suffered, because of the council tax freeze and then the 'flat cash' settlements, which are cuts in real terms. The CTF was a deliberate move by the SG, it was a populist move and it didnt benefit the poorest in society, it actually caused harm because it wasnt fully funded and when the books don't balance, the stuff that is 'nice to do' loses to the stuff that is 'need to do'. But it is the stuff that's 'nice to do' - the early intervention, prevention and wellbeing initiatives - that help services afrom being swamped by the need to do' and help steer people away from needing more formalised care - in itself generally a positive outcome.

The NCS proposals are essentially taking your social care budget away from you and keeping it for ministers to allocate. That's not localism. I don't know which ward you have but I suspect you know a fair bit more about resource pressures for care in Kilspindie or Balbeggie than Maree Todd, or more likely, a few civil servants at St Andrew's House or Victoria Quay do. Just as an aside I have high hopes for Todd. She has direct professional experience in primary care and she should understand the issues around rurality and remoteness, given her constituency.

Anyway, you're an SNP councillor and I dont expect you to be scathing about SG on a messageboard, thats unfair. I will repeat the point though - COSLA and SOLACE and the unions have all expressed significant concerns about this and wth the first two, it is worry about SG diminishing the autonomy of local authorities. And as you will know, COSLA's president and three of the five spokespersons are SNP, hey are calling it out for what it is.

[AgentDaleCooper]

That sort of thing reminds me of Stewart Lee, in Glasgow, doing his Braveheart routine.

You would have to be ridiculously thin-skinned not to laugh with Lee's jokes.

Lee's jokes are funny and extremely well crafted, and the butt of the joke is patriotism and natiinalism, not Scotland.

The MP in westminster is being flippant about her own country's awful history, and the butt of the joke is Scotland and its people.

I'm not 'offended', i just think it shows what smug, colonial tossers there are in westminster, especially in the tory party.

[StevieC]

Anyway, you're an SNP councillor and I dont expect you to be scathing about SG on a messageboard, thats unfair.

I don't have a problem with being scathing, for example I'd agree the council tax freeze was a disaster. Thankfully no longer in place, but it will take time to recover from it. I can't agree that the SG is diminishing autonomy away from local authorities. Maybe it's because we are an SNP led administration that a lot of the SG directives are pretty much aligned with that of the administration, and directives can have additional funds provided by the SG.

The budgets that local authorities receive is not enough, that much is pretty clear. Of course you could blame the SG for that (and the CTF was certainly a factor) but ultimately .. whether you like it or not .. it's a fixed budget and when you have to utilise large proportions of that to SG initiatives (such as mitigating bedroom tax, free prescriptions, free schooling, etc. etc.) then it is clearly going to have a detrimental effect. Yes, you can blame it all on the SG that local authorities are struggling but it's also not fair to point out the areas that have suffered without also stating that it is wholly wrong for them to use part of the budget for some of the other things mentioned.
If, for example, you are saying that free prescription, free schooling, etc. are things that benefit those that are dealing with poverty you've got to accept that there will be other areas that could suffer. If you can't, then you are effectively using the Labour model for budgeting whereby they simply say they will pay for everything (despite the reality being somewhat different).

Anyway, I'd better stop before I say too much and find myself hauled up by the leader of the council :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

I don't have a problem with being scathing, for example I'd agree the council tax freeze was a disaster. Thankfully no longer in place, but it will take time to recover from it. I can't agree that the SG is diminishing autonomy away from local authorities. Maybe it's because we are an SNP led administration that a lot of the SG directives are pretty much aligned with that of the administration, and directives can have additional funds provided by the SG.

The budgets that local authorities receive is not enough, that much is pretty clear. Of course you could blame the SG for that (and the CTF was certainly a factor) but ultimately .. whether you like it or not .. it's a fixed budget and when you have to utilise large proportions of that to SG initiatives (such as mitigating bedroom tax, free prescriptions, free schooling, etc. etc.) then it is clearly going to have a detrimental effect. Yes, you can blame it all on the SG that local authorities are struggling but it's also not fair to point out the areas that have suffered without also stating that it is wholly wrong for them to use part of the budget for some of the other things mentioned.
If, for example, you are saying that free prescription, free schooling, etc. are things that benefit those that are dealing with poverty you've got to accept that there will be other areas that could suffer. If you can't, then you are effectively using the Labour model for budgeting whereby they simply say they will pay for everything (despite the reality being somewhat different).

Anyway, I'd better stop before I say too much and find myself hauled up by the leader of the council :wink:

:greengrin

Fair play and I think it's a good point about how the cost of those universal benefits means maing difficult choices elsewhere.

Local authorities have seems like a near-impossible challenge in reconciling what they need to do as a statutory requirement, while knowing that there is so much they could do with more funding upstream but not being able to. SG keeping the funding for social care, if the proposals are implemented, will certainly make for some interesting times!

[StevieC]

Local authorities have seems like a near-impossible challenge in reconciling what they need to do as a statutory requirement, while knowing that there is so much they could do with more funding upstream but not being able to.

We’ve gone a bit off topic, in regards to the workings of local authorities and Independence (although there is potentially a big link around funding if you believe we could be a prosperous country with Independence).

I will respond to your last post though, and then call it a day.
As someone that started a business 32 years ago, at a time when there was lots of local funding available to support new businesses, I’ve had my eyes opened. It’s almost as if prudent practices and common sense have been replaced by phrase such as “that’s not how we do it”, “we can’t do that”, “it has to be done this way”. That mindset in itself is a major fault within local authorities, and I don’t think it will be any surprise to hear me say that I’ve been shocked by some of the levels of wastage, and more so the fact that it is accepted.

That said, the Administration that I am involved in genuinely wants to make real changes and individual Councillors are being supported in their ideas.

I would love to chat about the proactive things I (and others) have been doing, and the changes for the better that could do, but a message board isn’t the place … because a certain Murdo Fraser would find it, twist it, and put it out in his Twitter that the Perth SNP were in chaos and messing things up 🙄

I’ll mention one thing though .. being involved in a charity, and how crucial the purchase of a minibus was for Dnipro Kids, I’d asked about the disposal of council minibuses and our ability to support local charities that might benefit. I was told by a fleet manager that they had to go to an independent auction (that they had a contract with), that there were procedures in place that had to be adhered to and it just wasn’t possible. Now I’ve never really been one to just accept that something can’t be done 😉🇺🇦 so I took it to my group (one of whom had said he’d asked previously and also been told it wasn’t possible) and they were all, along with the council leader, supportive of my idea. So I went back to the fleet manager and we sat and discussed how that might be changed if there was a willingness to do so. We got on quite well, and he is currently drafting a workable policy that will allow PKC to provide a way for local charities to submit applications that would allow them to bid for vehicles that would benefit them (and ultimately PKC residents with a need). As with many council related things the process to implement is not a fast one, but if it comes off it will hopefully be one of many things I’ll be able to look back on during my time as a Councillor and be able to say I helped make a difference. 😉

[cabbageandribs1875]

i've been convinced for years now an Independent Scotland would see huge investment Scotland more attractive to foreign investment than UK and Europe | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23597288.scotland-attractive-foreign-investment-uk-europe/?fbclid=IwAR1bDlE8doLqFTnqmEElDW2TV9Gh5jMkilIWcVwn fi2Gh_UWmWnJGQmmagc)


only British Unionists want to convince us otherwise :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

i've been convinced for years now an Independent Scotland would see huge investment Scotland more attractive to foreign investment than UK and Europe | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23597288.scotland-attractive-foreign-investment-uk-europe/?fbclid=IwAR1bDlE8doLqFTnqmEElDW2TV9Gh5jMkilIWcVwn fi2Gh_UWmWnJGQmmagc)


only British Unionists want to convince us otherwise :agree:

I think NI might start to pull ahead in next couple of years. UK govt putting a lot of effort into huge trade shows in Belfast just now trying to show NI protocol works. Biden has promised big American business setting up there as well. They now have a huge advantage over Scotland.


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[Just Alf]

I think NI might start to pull ahead in next couple of years. UK govt putting a lot of effort into huge trade shows in Belfast just now trying to show NI protocol works. Biden has promised big American business setting up there as well. They now have a huge advantage over Scotland.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAnd yet the UK government have told the Scottish one that they're not allowed to pursue inward investment etc in the same way. They've even stopped a conference on the future of Artificial Intelligence involving all.4 home nations because it was led by the Scottish government (according to the BBC the other week)

[Mibbes Aye]

i've been convinced for years now an Independent Scotland would see huge investment Scotland more attractive to foreign investment than UK and Europe | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23597288.scotland-attractive-foreign-investment-uk-europe/?fbclid=IwAR1bDlE8doLqFTnqmEElDW2TV9Gh5jMkilIWcVwn fi2Gh_UWmWnJGQmmagc)


only British Unionists want to convince us otherwise :agree:

I am not saying the editors at the National are stupid, but have they not just run a story there that says Scotland is doing well on foreign investment and that’s building on earlier success?

Or to put it another way, isn’t devolved, non-independent Scotland doing well?

If you are making an argument for the union, you are going to say “Look! Scotland is doing well! Why risk that” whereas the argument for independence is, well, I’m not really sure but I’m guessing they need to go with “doing well, and this wouldn’t change or would get better if there was independence”.

Now, I’m a starry-eyed dreamer, if you want to offer me hope and broad, sunlit uplands, then I will be instinctively minded to give you my vote. But a lot of people aren’t. Global markers aren’t.

I guess the National isn’t looking to play the role of persuading the undecideds though, it is playing the role of boosting morale for the front line. Which is absolutely fair enough

[Ozyhibby]

I am not saying the editors at the National are stupid, but have they not just run a story there that says Scotland is doing well on foreign investment and that’s building on earlier success?

Or to put it another way, isn’t devolved, non-independent Scotland doing well?

If you are making an argument for the union, you are going to say “Look! Scotland is doing well! Why risk that” whereas the argument for independence is, well, I’m not really sure but I’m guessing they need to go with “doing well, and this wouldn’t change or would get better if there was independence”.

Now, I’m a starry-eyed dreamer, if you want to offer me hope and broad, sunlit uplands, then I will be instinctively minded to give you my vote. But a lot of people aren’t. Global markers aren’t.

I guess the National isn’t looking to play the role of persuading the undecideds though, it is playing the role of boosting morale for the front line. Which is absolutely fair enough

Doing well is pushing it. Doing better than rest of UK outside London? Fair enough.
We’ve brought in some investment but in nobodies mind is the Scottish economy doing well.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Doing well is pushing it. Doing better than rest of UK outside London? Fair enough.
We’ve brought in some investment but in nobodies mind is the Scottish economy doing well.


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Fair comment, but the thrust of my point stands. The National are not doing pro-Indy any favours by printing that

[Ozyhibby]

Fair comment, but the thrust of my point stands. The National are not doing pro-Indy any favours by printing that

I think that it’s interesting that two areas with a bit of autonomy to go out and promote themselves internationally are doing the best. London and Scotland. There is nobody out there promoting Yorkshire or Somerset.
So a little bit of autonomy works. Although it is now being taken back in Scotland case and we are no longer allowed to promote Scotland abroad.
The question is, if a little bit of autonomy works, does a big bit work better?
The SG does ok promoting Scotland abroad but not great. I know this because my mate works for DiT. He’s very much a unionist and anti SNP but recognises the advantage Scotland and London have in being able to promote themselves abroad. He’s also the one who tells me that NI is going to smash it over next few years due to their position still in the EU. It’s Ireland without the high property prices. Very attractive for investment.


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[Mibbes Aye]

I think that it’s interesting that two areas with a bit of autonomy to go out and promote themselves internationally are doing the best. London and Scotland. There is nobody out there promoting Yorkshire or Somerset.
So a little bit of autonomy works. Although it is now being taken back in Scotland case and we are no longer allowed to promote Scotland abroad.
The question is, if a little bit of autonomy works, does a big bit work better?
The SG does ok promoting Scotland abroad but not great. I know this because my mate works for DiT. He’s very much a unionist and anti SNP but recognises the advantage Scotland and London have in being able to promote themselves abroad. He’s also the one who tells me that NI is going to smash it over next few years due to their position still in the EU. It’s Ireland without the high property prices. Very attractive for investment.


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I agree with you on NI and I know your info will be 100%.

I'm not sure what's holding Yotkshire and Somerset back is autonomy though :greengrin

But if it is, and that's the case for Scotland too, then we should be embracing Gordon Brown's constitutional review, no? More power to the nations and regions, and even better, more power below that.

[Ozyhibby]

I agree with you on NI and I know your info will be 100%.

I'm not sure what's holding Yotkshire and Somerset back is autonomy though :greengrin

But if it is, and that's the case for Scotland too, then we should be embracing Gordon Brown's constitutional review, no? More power to the nations and regions, and even better, more power below that.

Think I’ll wait and see if Starmer embraces it? Will it make the manifesto?


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[Mibbes Aye]

Think I’ll wait and see if Starmer embraces it? Will it make the manifesto?


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(drum roll)

[Glory Lurker]

Scotland gets international attention because in the last 10 years we've forced ourselves into global consciousness through the referendum in 2014. It's piqued interest.

[WeeRussell]

Scotland gets international attention because in the last 10 years we've forced ourselves into global consciousness through the referendum in 2014. It's piqued interest.

Good point. That and the fact we beat everyone we play at football.

[Hibrandenburg]

I agree with you on NI and I know your info will be 100%.

I'm not sure what's holding Yotkshire and Somerset back is autonomy though :greengrin

But if it is, and that's the case for Scotland too, then we should be embracing Gordon Brown's constitutional review, no? More power to the nations and regions, and even better, more power below that.

Scotland can't cut its own trade deals without Westminster rubber stamping them. The best marketing and products in the world will only go so far if the deals made don't get authorised.

[archie]

i've been convinced for years now an Independent Scotland would see huge investment Scotland more attractive to foreign investment than UK and Europe | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23597288.scotland-attractive-foreign-investment-uk-europe/?fbclid=IwAR1bDlE8doLqFTnqmEElDW2TV9Gh5jMkilIWcVwn fi2Gh_UWmWnJGQmmagc)


only British Unionists want to convince us otherwise :agree:

The big but is that and independent Scotland would need to be very business friendly. I know Ozyhibby is keen on that, but I wouldn't think many independence supporters here would have that view. From what is posted here anyway.

[Ozyhibby]

The big but is that and independent Scotland would need to be very business friendly. I know Ozyhibby is keen on that, but I wouldn't think many independence supporters here would have that view. From what is posted here anyway.

I think there is a majority for a more business friendly outlook in the SNP, Labour and Tory party. Forbes would have won but for her ridiculous social policy views. I very much doubt they would have affected govt policy but they were enough to cost her the leadership. Which is a great shame as she would have been the best choice for FM and would have given us a nice change in direction.
If Humza doesn’t see that he needs to change course soon then he will lose seats to Labour at the GE and will be removed. Upcoming by-election will be an early test for him.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/joebrolly1993/status/1671199599153885190?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Union dividend.[emoji106]


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[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/joebrolly1993/status/1671199599153885190?s=46&t=3pb_w_qndxJXScFNwz8V4A

Union dividend.[emoji106]


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I've told you before about stats. The link there about pensions uses a table that measures them as a % of average earnings.

But average earnings are not the same across the OECD.

And neither is the cost of living.

Or the cost of healthcare.

So until you factor those in, using pensions as a % of average earnings is really not helpful.

I think I've said it before, it's like Top Trumps cards. If you put down Gordon Strachan you wouldn't go with height but you might go with caps, Dave Narey vice versa.

"Find a stat that fits my cause and put it on Twitter as if I'm Moses coming down from Mount Sinai with tablets of stone" is one of the most excruciatingly inane aspects of modern life.

Rant over :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

noooooooo the EU wouldn't want us, we're just too wee :(

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347393866_597197049184190_6753340568142759429_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=HN3qL_cHpFQAX8e4Dp9&_nc_oc=AQnCWQ8dDpaWmTIUM0nGsP-NvessfviaJY_gZogCZI2r9IUf_qFgP6Lg1wrOsP6NzIs&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfAkjwYP1W6V-VF7R-ekBusjrmUZHS2e07xLRsJygCcxBw&oe=64976F76

[Jack]

I've told you before about stats. The link there about pensions uses a table that measures them as a % of average earnings.

But average earnings are not the same across the OECD.

And neither is the cost of living.

Or the cost of healthcare.

So until you factor those in, using pensions as a % of average earnings is really not helpful.

I think I've said it before, it's like Top Trumps cards. If you put down Gordon Strachan you wouldn't go with height but you might go with caps, Dave Narey vice versa.

"Find a stat that fits my cause and put it on Twitter as if I'm Moses coming down from Mount Sinai with tablets of stone" is one of the most excruciatingly inane aspects of modern life.

Rant over :greengrin

Perhaps you should direct your rant at the Financial Times and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. I'm sure they'll appreciate your input as much as we do 😆

[grunt]

Perhaps you should direct your rant at the Financial Times and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. I'm sure they'll appreciate your input as much as we do 😆
What does the OECD know? Far better to listen to dot netters.

[Mibbes Aye]

noooooooo the EU wouldn't want us, we're just too wee :(

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347393866_597197049184190_6753340568142759429_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=HN3qL_cHpFQAX8e4Dp9&_nc_oc=AQnCWQ8dDpaWmTIUM0nGsP-NvessfviaJY_gZogCZI2r9IUf_qFgP6Lg1wrOsP6NzIs&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AfAkjwYP1W6V-VF7R-ekBusjrmUZHS2e07xLRsJygCcxBw&oe=64976F76


That will fit in nicely with the EU's own net zero target then.

Cutting greenhouse gas emissions by more than half of their 1990 level, by 2030.

Climate-neutral by 2050.

Oil is the unwanted guest at the dinner party. and so it should be. I'm not interested in funding saltire wet dreams at the expense of the planet.

[Mibbes Aye]

Perhaps you should direct your rant at the Financial Times and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. I'm sure they'll appreciate your input as much as we do 😆

Perhaps I will decide if I reply to Ozy's post or not. Because I was replying to his point.

This is meant to be a place for discussion or debate. Unfortunately some people seem to struggle with that concept.

Do you really want an echo chamber?

[Mibbes Aye]

What does the OECD know? Far better to listen to dot netters.

What's far better is to appreciate the difference.

The OECD, amongst other things, is very good at producing data.

What that data might imply is a discussion point. For dot nettere, as an example.

[archie]

What does the OECD know? Far better to listen to dot netters.

The OECD does indeed know https://www.oecd.org/publications/oecd-pensions-at-a-glance-19991363.htm