Scottish Independence

[Jones28]

New UN Human Development index is out. How many of that top ten are small independent countries close to us?

http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/latest-human-development-index-ranking


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Nah, can't be done, better together, viva la Brexit, Rule Brittania etc etc

I said on this forum a couple of days ago that the SNP should wait, but **** that. Lets get out of this.

[Jones28]

Nope...just pointing out that the majority of Welsh GDP was generated by coal... especially in the 60s in which the meme relates

But that's suggesting that an independent Wales couldn't change anything about their own fate in the intermittent 50 + years?

[Ozyhibby]

That's a bit unlucky on the UK, being 13th. :wink:

Scotland as part of the UK would likely be below 13th. The affluent south of England will be dragging us up.


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[ronaldo7]

Polls eh?

Bricking it.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZwJLT-oBM4


first time i've saw this youtube video, special interest from approx 7 mins explaining whitehall's thoughts on Scotland :agree: i'm sure their stance won't have softened in recent years

[cabbageandribs1875]

Ian Blackford re-elected leader for the coming year, hopefully leading SNP MP's back up to Scotland :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

Ian Blackford re-elected leader for the coming year, hopefully leading SNP MP's back up to Scotland :agree:

I actually don’t think Blackford is that good but there is the small consolation in that he seems to really trigger unionists.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

I actually don’t think Blackford is that good but there is the small consolation in that he seems to really trigger unionists.


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i do agree, i like listening to him in interviews etc but there's just something about the way he speaks in parliament, i've thought a few times now that i'd prefer someone else...

[CloudSquall]

It is quite hilarious that a previously random poster on the Bounce is now tearing the PM a new one on the regular in the Commons, there's hope for us all :greengrin

[Jack]

It is quite hilarious that a previously random poster on the Bounce is now tearing the PM a new one on the regular in the Commons, there's hope for us all :greengrin

He still posts now and again.

[Keith_M]

I actually don’t think Blackford is that good but there is the small consolation in that he seems to really trigger unionists.


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I don't think he's a particularly eloquent speaker... but at least he's not Salmond.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/131766099_10159416802188923_6628865183076281010_n. jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=J8OrYF-GU8UAX9pH9VD&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=d35611b9deccddac7a7c99d5f3a4855e&oe=6001A1D8


quite astonishing this little butchers apron wearing nyaff would rather destroy the british labour party north of the border, just so he can eventually get a poncy little red gown and £300/day, incredible

[Bostonhibby]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/131766099_10159416802188923_6628865183076281010_n. jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=J8OrYF-GU8UAX9pH9VD&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=d35611b9deccddac7a7c99d5f3a4855e&oe=6001A1D8


quite astonishing this little butchers apron wearing nyaff would rather destroy the british labour party north of the border, just so he can eventually get a poncy little red gown and £300/day, incredibleLooking to fill the Lord George Foulkes role?

An expenses loving Hearts bellend, I think that's the role profile.

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[One Day Soon]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/131766099_10159416802188923_6628865183076281010_n. jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=J8OrYF-GU8UAX9pH9VD&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=d35611b9deccddac7a7c99d5f3a4855e&oe=6001A1D8


quite astonishing this little butchers apron wearing nyaff would rather destroy the british labour party north of the border, just so he can eventually get a poncy little red gown and £300/day, incredible


Political Jackanory on .net. Smashing.

[One Day Soon]

Looking to fill the Lord George Foulkes role?

An expenses loving Hearts bellend, I think that's the role profile.

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If we're looking for expenses loving Jambos perhaps we should start with former SNP First Minister Alex Salmond.

What was it he claimed again? £800 for food on MPs' expenses. During recess.

Never mind the huge expenses claims while he was both an MP and an MSP.

[Bostonhibby]

If we're looking for expenses loving Jambos perhaps we should start with former SNP First Minister Alex Salmond.

What was it he claimed again? £800 for food on MPs' expenses. During recess.

Never mind the huge expenses claims while he was both an MP and an MSP.It's in their DNA.

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[Future17]

If we're looking for expenses loving Jambos perhaps we should start with former SNP First Minister Alex Salmond.

What was it he claimed again? £800 for food on MPs' expenses. During recess.

Never mind the huge expenses claims while he was both an MP and an MSP.

Did Salmond not donate a salary and pension to charity? I'm no Salmond fan but there's simply no comparison when it comes to Foulkes.

[One Day Soon]

Did Salmond not donate a salary and pension to charity? I'm no Salmond fan but there's simply no comparison when it comes to Foulkes.


I don't know how anyone justifies £800 for grub when parliament isn't even sitting. Let's not pretend all parties don't have their snouts in the trough.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't know how anyone justifies £800 for grub when parliament isn't even sitting. Let's not pretend all parties don't have their snouts in the trough.

If you are regularly eating in London restaurants surely it would not take long to rack up £800?


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[marinello59]

If you are regularly eating in London restaurants surely it would not take long to rack up £800?


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Salmond did explain it , the system allowed him to do it so he did. Not his fault.

[marinello59]

Did Salmond not donate a salary and pension to charity? I'm no Salmond fan but there's simply no comparison when it comes to Foulkes.

He donated them to a charity that he set up named after his mother that distributed the Government money he could have turned down to projects in his own constituency. Selfless. If only the other candidates could have done the same.

[The Modfather]

I don't know how anyone justifies £800 for grub when parliament isn't even sitting. Let's not pretend all parties don't have their snouts in the trough.

While that’s true, is it not whataboutery to start talking about Salmond rather than address the content of what it appears Ian Murray has said?

[One Day Soon]

While that’s true, is it not whataboutery to start talking about Salmond rather than address the content of what it appears Ian Murray has said?


I already dignified that daftness with the analysis it deserved.

[The Modfather]

I already dignified that daftness with the analysis it deserved.

Do you think The Times Scotland have made it up? Surely we’ll see an apology from them to Ian Murray in that case.

[JeMeSouviens]

Do you think The Times Scotland have made it up? Surely we’ll see an apology from them to Ian Murray in that case.

Like most things in Scottish politics, it’s easy to talk past one another on this. It does actually make sense if seen from a unionist perspective. If you believe that your country is Britain then putting country before party by sacrificing your party to preserve the integrity of your country is a positive thing.

If your country is Scotland it’s clearly mental.

[CloudSquall]

If anyone was to represent the typical union loving, Mondeo driving, rugby loving, middle management Jambo tosspot who secretly would love to go to Ibrox instead for the full No Surrender experience it's Murray.

Would love to see him lead "Better Together" in Round 2 just to see him (politically) pumped.

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/19/keir-starmer-to-promise-wave-of-devolution-under-labour-government?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Massive feeling of déjà vu?


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[wookie70]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/19/keir-starmer-to-promise-wave-of-devolution-under-labour-government?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Massive feeling of déjà vu?


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He would be better off abstaining

[DaveF]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/19/keir-starmer-to-promise-wave-of-devolution-under-labour-government?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Massive feeling of déjà vu?


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If the electorate fall for this crap again then we deserve all the years of Tory government we will (inevitably) get.

[Glory Lurker]

Has he announced any other keynote policies yet? Plus "vote Labour in Holyrood elections to support possible changes that Labour MSPs can't effect, and that actually rely on a general election win in a few years time". Intelligence duly insulted, Mr Starmer.

[JeMeSouviens]

Has he announced any other keynote policies yet? Plus "vote Labour in Holyrood elections to support possible changes that Labour MSPs can't effect, and that actually rely on a general election win in a few years time". Intelligence duly insulted, Mr Starmer.

Exactly. Even if there was more than a snowball’s chance in hell of anything coming of this, the way to get it would be by voting for indy parties. If the threat of indy recedes Scotland will disappear from the UK agenda quicker than you can say federalism.

[marinello59]

If the electorate fall for this crap again then we deserve all the years of Tory government we will (inevitably) get.

The electorate didn’t fall for it last time. The No side were in full on panic mode when the vow was made, most people had already made up their minds and though they didn’t know it they had it in the bag. Unfortunately.
There were a couple of studies afterwards that showed that the vow had virtually zero impact on how people voted. If it had been a major factor then you would have expected to hear outrage from those who had apparently been cheated. Instead all the outrage came from, and continues to come from, the Yes side who weren’t interested in it anyway.
My main worry is that the Tories allow a referendum to go ahead as long as the third option of increased devolution is on the ballot paper. Then we ( on the Yes side) will have a much harder job to do.

[DaveF]

The electorate didn’t fall for it last time. The No side were in full on panic mode when the vow was made, most people had already made up their minds and though they didn’t know it they had it in the bag. Unfortunately.
There were a couple of studies afterwards that showed that the vow had virtually zero impact on how people voted. If it had been a major factor then you would have expected to hear outrage from those who had apparently been cheated. Instead all the outrage came from, and continues to come from, the Yes side who weren’t interested in it anyway.
My main worry is that the Tories allow a referendum to go ahead as long as the third option of increased devolution is on the ballot paper. Then we ( on the Yes side) will have a much harder job to do.

You don't think there is a floating %age within the 58,56,54 or whatever the yes number is at the moment, who could not be swayed by this nonsense from Starmer?

I agree with you on the 3 option thing. Unionists will do anything and everything to ensure its as difficult as possible for yes to win.

[marinello59]

You don't think there is a floating %age within the 58,56,54 or whatever the yes number is at the moment, who could not be swayed by this nonsense from Starmer?

I agree with you on the 3 option thing. Unionists will do anything and everything to ensure its as difficult as possible for yes to win.

I do think soft Yes voters could be swayed by a third option.

[CloudSquall]

I think a lot would depend on how developed the plans for further devolution were prior to a referendum, I can't see anything close to federalism being practical given that it would require agreement in England where appetite for this is practically at 0.


Starmer and Labour's chat about working together and avoiding borders etc doesn't have the same effect as it did during indyref 1 given that the English workers Labour are asking us not to abandon voted in large numbers for Brexit, killing this "we're all the same" mantra stone dead.

[Jack]

I do think soft Yes voters could be swayed by a third option.

Was it not suggested at the time of the last referendum that a third of traditional Labour voters voted for independence?

If Brown hadn't made the vow it could have been more.

[Moulin Yarns]

I do think soft Yes voters could be swayed by a third option.

They'd be soft right enough 😉

[Hibrandenburg]

The electorate didn’t fall for it last time. The No side were in full on panic mode when the vow was made, most people had already made up their minds and though they didn’t know it they had it in the bag. Unfortunately.
There were a couple of studies afterwards that showed that the vow had virtually zero impact on how people voted. If it had been a major factor then you would have expected to hear outrage from those who had apparently been cheated. Instead all the outrage came from, and continues to come from, the Yes side who weren’t interested in it anyway.
My main worry is that the Tories allow a referendum to go ahead as long as the third option of increased devolution is on the ballot paper. Then we ( on the Yes side) will have a much harder job to do.

I still find that difficult to believe, I'm not saying it isn't true but I just can't understand how some floating voters could not have been swayed by the idea of more devolved powers rather than independence.

[weecounty hibby]

Once again promising things he cannot deliver. Hopefully everyone sees through that rubbish this time

[One Day Soon]

Exactly. Even if there was more than a snowball’s chance in hell of anything coming of this, the way to get it would be by voting for indy parties. If the threat of indy recedes Scotland will disappear from the UK agenda quicker than you can say federalism.

And yet the most substantive constitutional change for Scotland in the last 300 years came not from voting for indy parties but from electing a majority Labour government in 1997 which went on to deliver on its pledge for the Scottish Parliament. :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

And yet the most substantive constitutional change for Scotland in the last 300 years came not from voting for indy parties but from electing a majority Labour government in 1997 which went on to deliver on its pledge for the Scottish Parliament. :wink:

Which Labour only promised because their biggest opposition in Scotland was the SNP.


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[marinello59]

Which Labour only promised because their biggest opposition in Scotland was the SNP.


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That’s a poor comment from you. A lot of people in Labour may have though it would kill the call for Independence but devolution was a long standing desire for many in the Labour movement. Read some of Donald Dewar’s speeches on the subject.

[CloudSquall]

Is there any real demand in Labour for further devolution?

It certainly isn't the Labour of 97 and in light of the rise of the SNP and support for independence they've concentrated on going toe to toe with the Conservatives in the Party of the Union competition and they've lost heavily.

[JeMeSouviens]

That’s a poor comment from you. A lot of people in Labour may have though it would kill the call for Independence but devolution was a long standing desire for many in the Labour movement. Read some of Donald Dewar’s speeches on the subject.

That’s true but UK labour has only ever done the minimum it thought it had to to keep independence bottled up. And that’s what they’re doing again.

[weecounty hibby]

And yet the most substantive constitutional change for Scotland in the last 300 years came not from voting for indy parties but from electing a majority Labour government in 1997 which went on to deliver on its pledge for the Scottish Parliament. :wink:
And they should rightly be applauded for that and they should be proud of that achievement. Pity to see what they have become in Scotland now though

[ronaldo7]

And they should rightly be applauded for that and they should be proud of that achievement. Pity to see what they have become in Scotland now though

They should be castigated in equal measure for their complete failure to move on any powers to be devolved in the Smith commission.

They deliberately left them in the hands of the Tories.

Forgive me if Im a bit sceptical regarding their damascene conversion.

They're like the Anne budge of Scottish politics.

[Keith_M]

And yet the most substantive constitutional change for Scotland in the last 300 years came not from voting for indy parties but from electing a majority Labour government in 1997 which went on to deliver on its pledge for the Scottish Parliament. :wink:


I actually agree with this and I'm still grateful to the Blairite Government for starting Scotland on it's inevitable march to Independence.

Labour have done their part and then gracefully stepped aside... by assuming a role of total irrelevance in Scotland... to let the Independence parties finish their work.

Tony Blair (born in Edinburgh), and Gordon Brown (born in Giffnock) should be awarded medals for their part in our road to freedom.





:wink:

[Curried]

Starmer promising jam tomorrow and parroting May’s line that “now is not the time” LOL.

[Ozyhibby]

An intervention like this used to be treated as big news in Scotland. It’s now just mostly ignored. Nobody believes that he is sincere and even fewer believe he can deliver anyway. And even if he could, it’s way short of what the majority want now.


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[ronaldo7]

Starmer promising jam tomorrow and parroting May’s line that “now is not the time” LOL.

All the time, sitting on their hands in Westminster as the internal market bill gets railroaded through over the wishes of our parliament and the Welsh Assembly.

[G B Young]

The electorate didn’t fall for it last time. The No side were in full on panic mode when the vow was made, most people had already made up their minds and though they didn’t know it they had it in the bag. Unfortunately.
There were a couple of studies afterwards that showed that the vow had virtually zero impact on how people voted. If it had been a major factor then you would have expected to hear outrage from those who had apparently been cheated. Instead all the outrage came from, and continues to come from, the Yes side who weren’t interested in it anyway.
My main worry is that the Tories allow a referendum to go ahead as long as the third option of increased devolution is on the ballot paper. Then we ( on the Yes side) will have a much harder job to do.

:agree:

The vow had zero impact on the way I voted. I couldn't even tell you what it promised and the outrage you mention always seemed a bit contrived.

I'd actually be interested in hearing what Starmer's proposals are because personally I agree there's scope for a 'third way' here (something which would hopefully appeal to soft yes voters), but his timing sucks as the story has already been buried by the escalating Covid crisis.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/132202319_1578422199012093_3039799329828524464_o.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=2&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=63koNslBCLwAX9UUMw7&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=a48911a303e719f528648eef065ad7ca&oe=60057ECB


go blow goats starmer ya radge

[G B Young]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/132202319_1578422199012093_3039799329828524464_o.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=2&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=63koNslBCLwAX9UUMw7&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=a48911a303e719f528648eef065ad7ca&oe=60057ECB


go blow goats starmer ya radge


That's not what Starmer said. Whoever posted that has 'edited' it to suit his/her agenda.

[cabbageandribs1875]

That's not what Starmer said. Whoever posted that has 'edited' it to suit his/her agenda.


oh well :( dang, the offender is now going to get a mouthful of abuse


but he HAS asked his good friend johnson to deny calls for a 2nd referendum, yes ? does that mean he would indeed say NO *IF he ever was prime minister




* which of course will never happen

[CloudSquall]

https://mobile.twitter.com/MkBlyth/status/1339640783360708613

Haven't had a deep listen to it yet but an interesting podcast including Scottish economist Mark Blyth about Brexit, Scottish independence, and the likelihood of N.Ireland joining the Republic.

[weecounty hibby]

:agree:

The vow had zero impact on the way I voted. I couldn't even tell you what it promised and the outrage you mention always seemed a bit contrived.

I'd actually be interested in hearing what Starmer's proposals are because personally I agree there's scope for a 'third way' here (something which would hopefully appeal to soft yes voters), but his timing sucks as the story has already been buried by the escalating Covid crisis.

Interesting that the vow didn't away the way you voted last time but now all of a sudden a third way is of interest. It's almost as if independence is gathering support and the unionists are desperate to muddy the waters. He is promising something he cannot deliver. His party pretty much avoided the debate on removing devolved powers with the IMB

[Ozyhibby]

The only way federalism could sway the vote next time is if it has already been delivered. The promise of it won’t be enough next time after previous failures to deliver.


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[degenerated]

oh well :( dang, the offender is now going to get a mouthful of abuse


but he HAS asked his good friend johnson to deny calls for a 2nd referendum, yes ? does that mean he would indeed say NO *IF he ever was prime minister




* which of course will never happenThe guy had said he paraphrased what Starmer had said. To be fair it pretty much was what Starmer said, he just used more words.

[Ozyhibby]

The guy had said he paraphrased what Starmer had said. To be fair it pretty much was what Starmer said, he just used more words.

Labour going for the full on refusal of Scotland’s right to self determination is a boost for the SNP going into next May’s election.


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[greenlex]

The only way federalism could sway the vote next time is if it has already been delivered. The promise of it won’t be enough next time after previous failures to deliver.


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According to Gordon Brown on the radiogram this morning the vow was delivered.

[Moulin Yarns]

According to Gordon Brown on the radiogram this morning the vow was delivered.

That's right, it was delivered on the front page of the daily record. However what it promised was not delivered.

[DaveF]

Brown quoted here saying otherwise

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/14888556.brown-admits-the-tories-havent-fulfilled-the-vow/

[greenlex]

Brown quoted here saying otherwise

https://www.thenational.scot/politics/14888556.brown-admits-the-tories-havent-fulfilled-the-vow/

Been asked by Starmer to help with this latest move obviously he has had to change his tune.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://beta.parliament.scot/bills-and-laws/bills/uk-withdrawal-from-the-european-union-continuity-scotland-bill-2020



the UK withdrawal from the european union (continuity) (scotland) bill was passed by MSP's in the chamber by 90-29


just lessens the amount of laws needing changed back when we rejoin the EU :agree:





no idea who the 29 ****s were :hmmm:

[Callum_62]

Wasnt Gordon Brown the actual PM with a majority?

What did he change regarding devolution then?

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[lucky]

Labour have been trying to get federalism onto the political agenda for the last few years but problem is that no one knows what type of federalism they are promoting or what it actually means. The debate on the constitution is only about two arguments, independence or status quo. It’s too late to try and introduce a third option. The people of Scotland should always have the right of self determination

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201223/7462d23ad3d3b10d958c4e22951b8be9.jpg

Fair point.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Willie Rennie comparing independence with the current cluster**** at Dover 🙄

Meanwhile, independence by 2024?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-55423587

[Ozyhibby]

Now that there is a deal, I guess we now know our future trading relationship with the rUK?


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[marinello59]

Now that there is a deal, I guess we now know our future trading relationship with the rUK?


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Aye, meat can now be put on the bones of what a post-Brexit Independent Scotland will look like.

[ronaldo7]

Now that there is a deal, I guess we now know our future trading relationship with the rUK?


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Yup.

We can now leave a union(uk) and are able to trade with them at the same time from within another union(eu)

The Tories are going to flip flop on this one too.

[Colr]

Yup.

We can now leave a union(uk) and are able to trade with them at the same time from within another union(eu)

The Tories are going to flip flop on this one too.

You’re right.

[One Day Soon]

Aye, meat can now be put on the bones of what a post-Brexit Independent Scotland will look like.

Apparently a disaster for UK/Scotland economies, rights, standards etc in one context but a perfectly serviceable trading relationship in another, depending upon which way the argument needs to be about turned at any given time.

[heretoday]

Yup.

We can now leave a union(uk) and are able to trade with them at the same time from within another union(eu)

The Tories are going to flip flop on this one too.

What about EFTA rather than the EU?

[Ozyhibby]

Apparently a disaster for UK/Scotland economies, rights, standards etc in one context but a perfectly serviceable trading relationship in another, depending upon which way the argument needs to be about turned at any given time.

And both sides will do so.


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[Ozyhibby]

What about EFTA rather than the EU?

EFTA is our most likely destination short term.


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[ronaldo7]

What about EFTA rather than the EU?

I'd take a small step in that direction. We need Indy first to do so though.

The UK Gov could have headed off the movement towards independence if they'd given us a similar deal to Northern Ireland.

[Keith_M]

I'd take a small step in that direction. We need Indy first to do so though.

The UK Gov could have headed off the movement towards independence if they'd given us a similar deal to Northern Ireland.


It's a very different situation and they really had no choice in treating NI differently.

[Ozyhibby]

It's a very different situation and they really had no choice in treating NI differently.

So we live in a union where some people have more rights than others? How long do you think that can last?


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[Jack]

It's a very different situation and they really had no choice in treating NI differently.

Do you mean a very different situation compared to an independent Scotland?

I can see more similarities between a future independent Scotland in the EU and a NI that to all intents and purposes remain in the EU.

[ronaldo7]

It's a very different situation and they really had no choice in treating NI differently.

It's a political decision. They've decided to allow a part of the United Kingdom to stay in the SM, with all those associated benefits.

I get that the GFA had to be respected, but it wasn't beyond the wit of man to do a deal for Scotland.

The political will just wasn't there, and they'll have to deal with the consequences.

[StevieC]

It's a political decision. They've decided to allow a part of the United Kingdom to stay in the SM, with all those associated benefits.

I get that the GFA had to be respected, but it wasn't beyond the wit of man to do a deal for Scotland.

The political will just wasn't there, and they'll have to deal with the consequences.

I agree that the GFA had to be taken into account, but much easier to implement a sea border between NI and rUK than one between Scotland and rUK.

I also agree that there wasn't the political will, but that has only served to increase the Independence cause. All these "small" political decisions will be good ammunition for the Independence side when the referendum campaigning starts in earnest.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's a very different situation and they really had no choice in treating NI differently.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean. Do you mean that the situation is different there due to the threat that there might be a return to sectarian violence? If that is true then it sends a very dangerous message to hard core nationalists and one I hope is never even contemplated.

[Keith_M]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean. Do you mean that the situation is different there due to the threat that there might be a return to sectarian violence? If that is true then it sends a very dangerous message to hard core nationalists and one I hope is never even contemplated.


They had to find a solution that respected the Good Friday Agreement, in addition to the fact that the UK had a special relationship with the RoI decades before either country joined the EU.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's the (awful) reality of the situation over there.

I don't really think it's fair to compare that situation with Scotland not voting for Brexit.

[Ozyhibby]

They had to find a solution that respected the Good Friday Agreement, in addition to the fact that the UK had a special relationship with the RoI decades before either country joined the EU.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's the (awful) reality of the situation over there.

I don't really think it's fair to compare that situation with Scotland not voting for Brexit.

So it’s ok for the people of NI to have more rights and freedoms than the people of Scotland? Are you ok with that? You think it’s ok to say to kids in Scotland they are not worthy of the freedoms the NI kids have and there is no way for you to vote for those freedoms either?


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[Keith_M]

So it’s ok for the people of NI to have more rights and freedoms than the people of Scotland? Are you ok with that? You think it’s ok to say to kids in Scotland they are not worthy of the freedoms the NI kids have and there is no way for you to vote for those freedoms either?




I dunno mate, but feel free to answer your own questions on my behalf, as you seem to be the one claiming to know my viewpoint on all those issues.

Or instead, maybe you could just calm down and read my post for what it was; an observation on the differences between the situation in Scotland and NI... NOT an approval or acceptance of any of it.

[heretoday]

So it’s ok for the people of NI to have more rights and freedoms than the people of Scotland? Are you ok with that? You think it’s ok to say to kids in Scotland they are not worthy of the freedoms the NI kids have and there is no way for you to vote for those freedoms either?


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Yeah that's right.

[Hibrandenburg]

I dunno mate, but feel free to answer your own questions on my behalf, as you seem to be the one claiming to know my viewpoint on all those issues.

Or instead, maybe you could just calm down and read my post for what it was; an observation on the differences between the situation in Scotland and NI... NOT an approval or acceptance of any of it.

The awful truth is that NI has received a special deal because there is an underlying threat of violence. That's a terrible message to send and is basically saying that the only avenue open for democracy to prevail in a devolved nation is when it's supplemented with the threat of violence. Johnson denying Scotland another independence referendum if Scotland vote for the SNP in the next Holyrood election is every extremist's wet dream.

[Ozyhibby]

The awful truth is that NI has received a special deal because there is an underlying threat of violence. That's a terrible message to send and is basically saying that the only avenue open for democracy to prevail in a devolved nation is when it's supplemented with the threat of violence. Johnson denying Scotland another independence referendum if Scotland vote for the SNP in the next Holyrood election is every extremist's wet dream.

The minute he turns down that s30 order, Scotland ceases to be a democracy. What happens after that could get very unpredictable.


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[GlesgaeHibby]

The minute he turns down that s30 order, Scotland ceases to be a democracy. What happens after that could get very unpredictable.


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It'll be about as predictable as when Theresa May said "now is not the time". Boris will say the same.

The SNP leadership's response in the wake of 2017 was hardly impressive. Blackford standing up in the commons, week after week giving it "Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against our will". Look where we are now.

SNP leadership are good at sound bites, but not action.

[Ozyhibby]

It'll be about as predictable as when Theresa May said "now is not the time". Boris will say the same.

The SNP leadership's response in the wake of 2017 was hardly impressive. Blackford standing up in the commons, week after week giving it "Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against our will". Look where we are now.

SNP leadership are good at sound bites, but not action.

What action would you suggest?
Since ‘now is not the time’, support for independence has surged. A formal refusal of a s30 request will see it rise further.
People need to remember that the most important thing is getting to a stage where the majority want independence. The end goal is independence itself, not another referendum. The Tories denying a referendum is great for building support. It turns the independence movement into a fight for democracy and people don’t like to be on the wrong side of that.


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://mobile.twitter.com/MkBlyth/status/1339640783360708613

Haven't had a deep listen to it yet but an interesting podcast including Scottish economist Mark Blyth about Brexit, Scottish independence, and the likelihood of N.Ireland joining the Republic.

Thanks for sharing this.

Brilliant listen. He articulates beautifully (and a bit swearily) everything I’ve been banging on about on here for years.

If anybody here is still swithering on the Indy question, listen to this guy.

[JeMeSouviens]

It'll be about as predictable as when Theresa May said "now is not the time". Boris will say the same.

The SNP leadership's response in the wake of 2017 was hardly impressive. Blackford standing up in the commons, week after week giving it "Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against our will". Look where we are now.

SNP leadership are good at sound bites, but not action.

At that time, polling for Indy was about 45% Yes and support for an indyref wasn’t there.

The SNP leadership had to make the sound bites and let the Tories reveal the true extent of what a cluster**** they were going to make of the UK while public opinion caught up with events and swung behind indy.

A large majority at Holyrood, crucially backed by a majority of votes and elected on an unequivocal mandate to hold a ref#2, gives a much, much better platform to demand plan A and if refused, move to plan B.

[Ozyhibby]

Thanks for sharing this.

Brilliant listen. He articulates beautifully (and a bit swearily) everything I’ve been banging on about on here for years.

If anybody here is still swithering on the Indy question, listen to this guy.

Very good listen. [emoji106]


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[GlesgaeHibby]

What action would you suggest?
Since ‘now is not the time’, support for independence has surged. A formal refusal of a s30 request will see it rise further.
People need to remember that the most important thing is getting to a stage where the majority want independence. The end goal is independence itself, not another referendum. The Tories denying a referendum is great for building support. It turns the independence movement into a fight for democracy and people don’t like to be on the wrong side of that.


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NS using the mandates already given to her in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2019 and submitting a formal s30 order now. Why wait until after the election for Boris to refuse it? If the Tories denying approval for a referendum is the best thing to build support, surely that would help the SNP further in the election in May? We're now about to suffer the pain from this tory Brexit deal, even though Blackford stood up week in week out declaring we wouldn't be dragged out the EU against our will. The sooner we get out the sinking ship of Brexit Britain the better.

We want the same outcome, so I hope you're right that the strategy is working and will eventually yield success. I'm not convinced it will - as I've said before, Boris will flat out refuse and with a majority of 80 behind him, it's a position he'll comfortably hold. He's already reduced the powers available to the devolved administrations, through the Internal Market Bill, and will be quite happy to further undermine devolution.

[GlesgaeHibby]

At that time, polling for Indy was about 45% Yes and support for an indyref wasn’t there.

The SNP leadership had to make the sound bites and let the Tories reveal the true extent of what a cluster**** they were going to make of the UK while public opinion caught up with events and swung behind indy.

A large majority at Holyrood, crucially backed by a majority of votes and elected on an unequivocal mandate to hold a ref#2, gives a much, much better platform to demand plan A and if refused, move to plan B.

Polling for indy was in the 30-40% range when the 2014 campaign began, and yes enjoyed all the momentum in the run up to the referendum (although not enough sadly!).

The mandate for Plan A is already there - the Scottish Parliament has enjoyed a pro-indy majority since 2011, and the SNP have won every Westminster election since 2015. We all know that Plan A will be flatly refused, which is why moving to develop a Plan B is necessary now imo.

IIRC, Theresa May didn't even formally respond to Nicola Sturgeon's s30 request in 2017.

[Ozyhibby]

Polling for indy was in the 30-40% range when the 2014 campaign began, and yes enjoyed all the momentum in the run up to the referendum (although not enough sadly!).

The mandate for Plan A is already there - the Scottish Parliament has enjoyed a pro-indy majority since 2011, and the SNP have won every Westminster election since 2015. We all know that Plan A will be flatly refused, which is why moving to develop a Plan B is necessary now imo.

IIRC, Theresa May didn't even formally respond to Nicola Sturgeon's s30 request in 2017.

I don’t think a s30 request was put in?


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[Ozyhibby]

NS using the mandates already given to her in 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2019 and submitting a formal s30 order now. Why wait until after the election for Boris to refuse it? If the Tories denying approval for a referendum is the best thing to build support, surely that would help the SNP further in the election in May? We're now about to suffer the pain from this tory Brexit deal, even though Blackford stood up week in week out declaring we wouldn't be dragged out the EU against our will. The sooner we get out the sinking ship of Brexit Britain the better.

We want the same outcome, so I hope you're right that the strategy is working and will eventually yield success. I'm not convinced it will - as I've said before, Boris will flat out refuse and with a majority of 80 behind him, it's a position he'll comfortably hold. He's already reduced the powers available to the devolved administrations, through the Internal Market Bill, and will be quite happy to further undermine devolution.

I agree that Johnson will refuse but I think that it’s best to make him refuse in the wake of a thumping SNP win at the ballot box following a campaign that expressly says that we plan to hold a referendum.
Turning the independence movement into a campaign for democracy will pave the way for support above 60%. Eventually we will get the referendum, the important thing is to get support to a level where we win it.


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[GlesgaeHibby]

I agree that Johnson will refuse but I think that it’s best to make him refuse in the wake of a thumping SNP win at the ballot box following a campaign that expressly says that we plan to hold a referendum.
Turning the independence movement into a campaign for democracy will pave the way for support above 60%. Eventually we will get the referendum, the important thing is to get support to a level where we win it.


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I'd rather we got on with it - nothing stopping a s30 request going in asap. At the rate things are moving, a generation will have passed by the time we get this referendum :greengrin

[GlesgaeHibby]

I don’t think a s30 request was put in?


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There was this, to "begin discussions to agree an Order under s30 of the Scotland Act"

https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeon-s-section-30-letter-to-theresa-may/

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-ranked-second-in-the-world-for-quality-of-life-beating-sweden-germany-and-uk-1.4440009?mode=amp

It’s almost as if running your own affairs is a good thing.


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[Ozyhibby]

I see that people from NI will still get EHIC cards for when they travel while us second class citizens in Scotland won’t.


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[Hibrandenburg]

I see that people from NI will still get EHIC cards for when they travel while us second class citizens in Scotland won’t.


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How much does the rest UK pay for having the privilege to have NI in the EU? Will it at least fit on the side of a minibus?

[GlesgaeHibby]

How much does the rest UK pay for having the privilege to have NI in the EU? Will it at least fit on the side of a minibus?

Being funded by Dublin apparently

https://twitter.com/nealerichmond/status/1343709302884855809?s=19

[Keith_M]

Being funded by Dublin apparently

https://twitter.com/nealerichmond/status/1343709302884855809?s=19



Oops.


I wonder what the more staunch, Unionist elements in NI feel about that.

[greenlex]

Oops.


I wonder what the more staunch, Unionist elements in NI feel about that.
Could Edinburgh do similar for England after independence? :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

I see that the Scotsman newspaper has changed hands. I wonder if there will be a change in its editorial stance on Indy? Can’t be great commercially having to share a minority of consumers with the rest of the newspapers, TV and radio?


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[Bristolhibby]

I see Gibraltar got its deal in the end.

Canny move by the Spanish. Weakens ties between Gib and London.

Gib now part of the Schengen. Do wonder what this means for British passport holders right to live and work in Gibraltar for more than 90 days in 180.

So NI gets its deal, Gibraltar gets its deal.

Scotland gets told to take its medicine.

Bollox.

J

[Ozyhibby]

I see Gibraltar got its deal in the end.

Canny move by the Spanish. Weakens ties between Gib and London.

Gib now part of the Schengen. Do wonder what this means for British passport holders right to live and work in Gibraltar for more than 90 days in 180.

So NI gets its deal, Gibraltar gets its deal.

Scotland gets told to take its medicine.

Bollox.

J

Scotland asking for and being denied the same deal as NI is going to be very hard to defend as time goes by.
A union that is openly and deliberately unequal will not last.


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[Ozyhibby]

I see Gibraltar got its deal in the end.

Canny move by the Spanish. Weakens ties between Gib and London.

Gib now part of the Schengen. Do wonder what this means for British passport holders right to live and work in Gibraltar for more than 90 days in 180.

So NI gets its deal, Gibraltar gets its deal.

Scotland gets told to take its medicine.

Bollox.

J

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201231/c93cc57c8f726155e24583a26a81069e.jpg


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[CloudSquall]

Scotland asking for and being denied the same deal as NI is going to be very hard to defend as time goes by.
A union that is openly and deliberately unequal will not last.


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Especially given that the defender of the Union Ruth was considering resignation if NI got a different deal.

"Well...eh...we just need to get on with it.." isn't going to cut it.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201231/c93cc57c8f726155e24583a26a81069e.jpg


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Read the replies

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/boris-johnsons-brexit-deal-may-wreck-snp-attack-line-it-also-destroys-key-plank-unionists-project-fear-joyce-mcmillan-3081256


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[ronaldo7]

I see that the Scotsman newspaper has changed hands. I wonder if there will be a change in its editorial stance on Indy? Can’t be great commercially having to share a minority of consumers with the rest of the newspapers, TV and radio?


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Taken over by national world, led by David Montgomery, a former mirror group CEO, who was also a news of the World editor.

I would expect their stance to harden, to become a red white and blue top.

[greenlex]

Taken over by national world, led by David Montgomery, a former mirror group CEO, who was also a news of the World editor.

I would expect their stance to harden, to become a red white and blue top.
You never know. They are famous for going for the populist reader. A 180 turn at the glimpse of a poll?

[Keith_M]

Scotland asking for and being denied the same deal as NI is going to be very hard to defend as time goes by.
A union that is openly and deliberately unequal will not last.
...


I hate to mention this, as I was jumped on by some very angry posters the last time I mentioned the NI arragement, but the circumstances with Scotland are very different.

It's kind of obvious what the differences are, and why a special arrangement is really needed for Gibraltar, but nobody else seems to have mentioned it...

[greenlex]

I hate to mention this, as I was jumped on by some very angry posters the last time I mentioned the NI arragement, but the circumstances with Scotland are very different.

It's kind of obvious what the differences are, and why a special arrangement is really needed for Gibraltar, but nobody else seems to have mentioned it...
I think the point is The Scottish government asked to remain single market/movement (Schengen)as per people’s vote which was met with a custard pie whilst other parts of the Union are treated differently. We all know why they are treated differently land borders and all that but it’s the final nail for the Union. The circumstances are just geographical. The will or rather lack of it is political.

[Colr]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201231/c93cc57c8f726155e24583a26a81069e.jpg


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Not the SNP. 60% of the Scottish people and the Scottish people are sovereign in Scotland.

[Future17]

I hate to mention this, as I was jumped on by some very angry posters the last time I mentioned the NI arragement, but the circumstances with Scotland are very different.

It's kind of obvious what the differences are, and why a special arrangement is really needed for Gibraltar, but nobody else seems to have mentioned it...

Aside from whether it is needed or not, if it's possible, why is it not available to a part of the Union which voted overwhelmingly against Brexit?

[ronaldo7]

I hate to mention this, as I was jumped on by some very angry posters the last time I mentioned the NI arragement, but the circumstances with Scotland are very different.

It's kind of obvious what the differences are, and why a special arrangement is really needed for Gibraltar, but nobody else seems to have mentioned it...

I can't recall anyone being angry when discussing it, just a difference of opinion.

It was mentioned that the decision is a political one. Nothing has changed, it's still political.

If the will was there to give Scotland the same deal as the occupied 6 counties or Gibraltar, it could have been done.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i missed this one, from 2013, what a true viosionary our first minister is, what a leader to have :agree: particular interest about membership of the EU starts at 12 mins, i'd love to hear carmichaels thoughts now :agree:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-lvSA6pOPE

[ronaldo7]

i missed this one, from 2013, what a true viosionary our first minister is, what a leader to have :agree: particular interest about membership of the EU starts at 12 mins, i'd love to hear carmichaels thoughts now :agree:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-lvSA6pOPE

Ah, the help me Rhona debate.

Turns out, Nicola was spot on.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Johnson on Marr suggesting that a suitable time to wait for another referendum would be about 40 years.

[degenerated]

Johnson on Marr suggesting that a suitable time to wait for another referendum would be about 40 years.Suitable time for him perhaps, not suitable for Scotland though.

[Bristolhibby]

Johnson on Marr suggesting that a suitable time to wait for another referendum would be about 40 years.

2055, get that date in the diary folks. The next time Scots are “allowed” a referendum on their own destiny.

Thanks Bobo. We’s a so appreciative.

J

[lapsedhibee]

Johnson on Marr suggesting that a suitable time to wait for another referendum would be about 40 years.

Johnson's mixed up about generations. His current breeding partner would by normal standards be considered as being in a different generation to him, but a filly's a filly what.

[StevieC]

Johnson on Marr suggesting that a suitable time to wait for another referendum would be about 40 years.

Sounds about right, the oil should all be dried up by then and they can discard Scotland like a used sweetie wrapper.

[Ozyhibby]

Sounds about right, the oil should all be dried up by then and they can discard Scotland like a used sweetie wrapper.

Oil is done now as an issue in next referendum. All countries are planning on a post oil economy. Scotland should too.


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[Peevemor]

Oil is done now as an issue in next referendum. All countries are planning on a post oil economy. Scotland should too.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThere's still plenty time to profit from oil revenue before it comes to that. Any I Scottish government will have it's eyes on both balls.

[Mon Dieu4]

Johnson's mixed up about generations. His current breeding partner would by normal standards be considered as being in a different generation to him, but a filly's a filly what.

I'm sure the good Friday agreement states a generation is classed as 7 years, can't pick and choose what you want it to be to suit yourself

[lapsedhibee]

I'm sure the good Friday agreement states a generation is classed as 7 years, can't pick and choose what you want it to be to suit yourself
In that case he's breeding with someone young enough to be his great-granddaughter. Perv.

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/mstewart_23/status/1345679022341181442?s

To be fair he has now totally convinced me that we have no right to seek a referendum

That answer totally won me over in that Scotland should have no will power to seek its own future, well it has but only once every 41 years

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[Keith_M]

I can't recall anyone being angry when discussing it, just a difference of opinion.

It was mentioned that the decision is a political one. Nothing has changed, it's still political.

If the will was there to give Scotland the same deal as the occupied 6 counties or Gibraltar, it could have been done.


You obviously didn't read all the replies to my post. I definitely sensed a bit of hostility from a couple of posters.

The thing is, I'm actually in favour of Independence, and of Scotland re-joining the EU, but think it only fair to discuss the circumstances behind certain events and deals.

My overall point is that deals were only put in place for NI and Gibraltar because of their exceptional circumstances. Scotland doesn't have those so it's highly unlikely that the EU, the UK ,or anybody else will put anything similar in place for us.


For instance, there's no way the UK would be willing to create a border between Scotland and rUK, with custom checks and everything else, just because Scotland voted overwhelmingly against Brexit.

[Ozyhibby]

You obviously didn't read all the replies to my post. I definitely sensed a bit of hostility from a couple of posters.

The thing is, I'm actually in favour of Independence, and of Scotland re-joining the EU, but think it only fair to discuss the circumstances behind certain events and deals.

My overall point is that deals were only put in place for NI and Gibraltar because of their exceptional circumstances. Scotland doesn't have those so it's highly unlikely that the EU, the UK ,or anybody else will put anything similar in place for us.


For instance, there's no way the UK would be willing to create a border between Scotland and rUK, with custom checks and everything else, just because Scotland voted overwhelmingly against Brexit.

We shouldn’t have to ask anyone else for what we want for ourselves. Scotland asked for the same deal as NI and were refused. We are literally second class citizens.


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[Keith_M]

We shouldn’t have to ask anyone else for what we want for ourselves. Scotland asked for the same deal as NI and were refused. We are literally second class citizens.


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Perhaps, but that's the situation we're currently in.

I'm personally in favour a of a very hard border between us and the rUK, but that's just my personal, totally unacceptable, prejudices coming to the fore.

:greengrin

[ronaldo7]

You obviously didn't read all the replies to my post. I definitely sensed a bit of hostility from a couple of posters.

The thing is, I'm actually in favour of Independence, and of Scotland re-joining the EU, but think it only fair to discuss the circumstances behind certain events and deals.

My overall point is that deals were only put in place for NI and Gibraltar because of their exceptional circumstances. Scotland doesn't have those so it's highly unlikely that the EU, the UK ,or anybody else will put anything similar in place for us.


For instance, there's no way the UK would be willing to create a border between Scotland and rUK, with custom checks and everything else, just because Scotland voted overwhelmingly against Brexit.

I read all the posts on the thread so covered your ones. I've done so again and can't really see any anger. I think most folk have agreed that the situation in the occupied 6 counties is different to other areas of the UK, however that doesn't make it right that they've got special status in a union of equals. It makes it look like we're not actually equal.

The sooner we make our own decisions the better.

Peace out.

[Future17]

My overall point is that deals were only put in place for NI and Gibraltar because of their exceptional circumstances. Scotland doesn't have those so it's highly unlikely that the EU, the UK ,or anybody else will put anything similar in place for us.

Scotland doesn't have the same exceptional circumstances as Gibraltar and Northern Ireland, but it does have exceptional circumstances. Why does one exceptional circumstance justify different arrangements, but another does not?

[Keith_M]

Scotland doesn't have the same exceptional circumstances as Gibraltar and Northern Ireland, but it does have exceptional circumstances. Why does one exceptional circumstance justify different arrangements, but another does not?


I'm sure you already know this but international land borders springs to mind.

Gibraltar is reliant on goods and workers travelling over the border to Spain on a daily basis. They're totally dependent on their links to Spain.

Northern Ireland has an exceptional relationship with it's RoI neighbour, with economic and emotional ties, plus the Good Friday Agreement would be under threat if no special arrangement was put in place.

Compared to that, Scotland voting against Brexit is pretty insignificant and I'd never describe it as a Special Circumstance that warrants closing the border with the rest of the UK while we're still part of that country.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm sure you already know this but international land borders springs to mind.

Gibraltar is reliant on goods and workers travelling over the border to Spain on a daily basis. They're totally dependent on their links to Spain.

Northern Ireland has an exceptional relationship with it's RoI neighbour, with economic and emotional ties, plus the Good Friday Agreement would be under threat if no special arrangement was put in place.

Compared to that, Scotland voting against Brexit is pretty insignificant and I'd never describe it as a Special Circumstance that warrants closing the border with the rest of the UK while we're still part of that country.

Border doesn’t need to close. The deal makes movement of goods easy, I heard Johnson say so. [emoji6]
As investment start to flow to NI due to their special status and Scotland continues to miss out, more and more people are going to be asking why we can’t have what they have? And if the answer is ‘because we say so’ then there will be a further drift towards independence.
It doesn’t really matter why they have special status, just that they do and we have been refused it. We have been told we don’t matter as much.


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[Bristolhibby]

I'm sure you already know this but international land borders springs to mind.

Gibraltar is reliant on goods and workers travelling over the border to Spain on a daily basis. They're totally dependent on their links to Spain.

Northern Ireland has an exceptional relationship with it's RoI neighbour, with economic and emotional ties, plus the Good Friday Agreement would be under threat if no special arrangement was put in place.

Compared to that, Scotland voting against Brexit is pretty insignificant and I'd never describe it as a Special Circumstance that warrants closing the border with the rest of the UK while we're still part of that country.

But why? Because the Irish picked up the gun? Or the Spanish are more obstinate than the English.

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

J

[Renfrew_Hibby]

It would be so funny, and a game changer if the EU openly endorsed future membership during any 2nd ref. Especially after they bent over backwards to help out Cameron in the first referendum.

[Ozyhibby]

It would be so funny, and a game changer if the EU openly endorsed future membership during any 2nd ref. Especially after they bent over backwards to help out Cameron in the first referendum.

The next campaign will be very very different from 2014. This one will based on people’s feeling of identity much more than the last one. Do you feel Scottish and European or British? I doubt the SNP will print the white book thing or anything like that. They will have learned from Brexit. And I think the noises from the EU will be very positive.


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[Keith_M]

But why? Because the Irish picked up the gun? Or the Spanish are more obstinate than the English.

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

J


I'm not really sure what else I can say, as I gave fairly detailed reasoning already.

I think some of the responses suggest that people have an overly simplistic idea of how it would work if they think we could have a special relationship with the EU but not have to put any extra checks in place between Scotland and the rUK. Mentioning that idiot Bojo as a response doesn't really answer any of the issues either.

I think some people just have a really entrenched position and don't want to hear anything that they don't like.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not really sure what else I can say, as I gave fairly detailed reasoning already.

I think some of the responses suggest that people have an overly simplistic idea of how it would work if they think we could have a special relationship with the EU but not have to put an extra checks in place between Scotland and the rUK. Mentioning that idiot Bojo as a response doesn't really answer any of the issues either.

I think some people just have a really entrenched position and don't want to hear anything that they don't like.

We will need border infrastructure between Scotland and England but our access to the EU markets will make up for it. We’ll probably have to upgrade our ports so that we don’t have to move goods through rUK to avoid all their checks.
Alongside Ireland we would be an English speaking bridge to the EU market for international businesses from all over the globe. A real boost for lawyers and accountants in Edinburgh.
There will be downsides but also great opportunity.


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[Keith_M]

We will need border infrastructure between Scotland and England but our access to the EU markets will make up for it. We’ll probably have to upgrade our ports so that we don’t have to move goods through rUK to avoid all their checks.
Alongside Ireland we would be an English speaking bridge to the EU market for international businesses from all over the globe. A real boost for lawyers and accountants in Edinburgh.
There will be downsides but also great opportunity.


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Don't get me wrong, Ozy, I would absolutely love that to happen.

:aok:

[McD]

I'm not really sure what else I can say, as I gave fairly detailed reasoning already.

I think some of the responses suggest that people have an overly simplistic idea of how it would work if they think we could have a special relationship with the EU but not have to put any extra checks in place between Scotland and the rUK. Mentioning that idiot Bojo as a response doesn't really answer any of the issues either.

I think some people just have a really entrenched position and don't want to hear anything that they don't like.



I think the highlighted sentence is broadly true of the whole situation, for people on both sides

[Ozyhibby]

I think the highlighted sentence is broadly true of the whole situation, for people on both sides

There are always people entrenched on any issue but the swing towards independence shows that there were also a lot of swing voters to be won over.


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[Bristolhibby]

I'm not really sure what else I can say, as I gave fairly detailed reasoning already.

I think some of the responses suggest that people have an overly simplistic idea of how it would work if they think we could have a special relationship with the EU but not have to put any extra checks in place between Scotland and the rUK. Mentioning that idiot Bojo as a response doesn't really answer any of the issues either.

I think some people just have a really entrenched position and don't want to hear anything that they don't like.

No I get what you said, but why should it be an issue?

Checks at the border, but there will be a trade deal in place. Like there is between the U.K. and the EU.

Huge benefit on being an English speaking EU member.

Massive potential for Rosyth, Leith and Glasgow.

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/01/02/uk/2020-hurt-the-uk-2021-could-kill-it-intl-gbr/index.html?__twitter_impression=true


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/01/02/uk/2020-hurt-the-uk-2021-could-kill-it-intl-gbr/index.html?__twitter_impression=true


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Thanks. Good read.

[Jones28]

I wonder how many polls it would take to convince Bojo that independence is something Scottish people want? Or how about successive SNP landslide elections?

[Callum_62]

I wonder how many polls it would take to convince Bojo that independence is something Scottish people want? Or how about successive SNP landslide elections?We are but a region, its irrelevant

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[bawheid]

We are but a region, its irrelevant

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Yep, Boris sees himself as somewhere between Henry VIII and Churchill. He is the Emperor and it’s his role to reinstall Britannia’s wave ruling past.

Jocks whinging about independence will not register with him and he’ll ignore all calls for democracy in Scotland. We’ll need to take it into our own hands IMO. Did the English ever give up any of their former colonies without a fight?

[Keith_M]

I think the highlighted sentence is broadly true of the whole situation, for people on both sides


There are always people entrenched on any issue but the swing towards independence shows that there were also a lot of swing voters to be won over.



Very true.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/scottish-independence-if-boris-johnson-refuses-allow-second-referendum-game-bogey-angus-robertson-3084349

Last sentence in this article is exactly where the SNP want this to go. And Johnson is walking right into it.


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[degenerated]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/scottish-independence-if-boris-johnson-refuses-allow-second-referendum-game-bogey-angus-robertson-3084349

Last sentence in this article is exactly where the SNP want this to go. And Johnson is walking right into it.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkTheir next trick will be to try and get the Scottish elections postponed, their pliant media are already running with this. Wouldn't surprise me if they push next for a unity government during their proposed postponement.

[Ozyhibby]

And our number of mp’s are being cut.

https://news.stv.tv/politics/scotland-set-to-lose-two-mps-in-electoral-map-shake-up?top&amp&__twitter_impression=true


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[marinello59]

Their next trick will be to try and get the Scottish elections postponed, their pliant media are already running with this. Wouldn't surprise me if they push next for a unity government during their proposed postponement.

That's something I'm guessing is being discussed by the Scottish cabinet and I would not be surprised to see Sturgeon bring it to a vote in the Scottish Parliament with the SNP remaining in charge until later in the year. Having an election whilst the pandemic is still ongoing and the vaccine is still being rolled out is a risk we don't need to take. The opposition parties would be foolish to vote against it.

[Keith_M]

Their next trick will be to try and get the Scottish elections postponed, their pliant media are already running with this. Wouldn't surprise me if they push next for a unity government during their proposed postponement.


Don't you think postponing elections would be a sensible thing to do, given the circumstances?

:dunno:

[degenerated]

Don't you think postponing elections would be a sensible thing to do, given the circumstances?

:dunno:Plenty other countries managed to have elections and referenda throughout this pandemic, surely we are not uniquely incapable of being able to manage that?

[Peevemor]

Plenty other countries managed to have elections and referenda throughout this pandemic, surely we are not uniquely incapable of being able to manage that?

The American election seemed to be straightforward enough. :greengrin

[marinello59]

The American election seemed to be straightforward enough. :greengrin

:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

The American election seemed to be straightforward enough. :greengrin

It was. Unless you believe Trump?
Increased postal voting and spreading voting over two days would be enough to make it safe. It’s never very busy when I visit a polling station? It’s not like there are huge q’s.
I think there is no chance Sturgeon will postpone when she is facing pressure internally for going too slow on Indy.


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[wookie70]

I'd want to call an Independent election around August announced immediately after a resounding independent win in the May elections. We need to get it done quickly as we have the opportunity of mitigating any potential economic detriment caused by leaving the Union with a potential bonanza that being a EU country bordering England may have. We need to get the same massive advantage that Northern Ireland currently enjoys and we would get Independence off to a flying start imo. If this is done when the pandemic has been mostly tamed and the disaster that is Brexit is starting to become more obvious then there is even more chance of winning. The critical thing is to have the referendum while the current PM is still in place. He is a bigger factor in a potential Yes vote than Sturgeon ever will be.

[marinello59]

It was. Unless you believe Trump?
Increased postal voting and spreading voting over two days would be enough to make it safe. It’s never very busy when I visit a polling station? It’s not like there are huge q’s.
I think there is no chance Sturgeon will postpone when she is facing pressure internally for going too slow on Indy.


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We are talking about a few months, not decades. It would make very little difference in the timetable for a referendum. There is no chance that will be held in 2021 anyway, we will win that one next year.

[Ozyhibby]

We are talking about a few months, not decades. It would make very little difference in the timetable for a referendum. There is no chance that will be held in 2021 anyway, we will win that one next year.

I agree with you, it’s just there is a minority of plan b crazies in the party willing to cause trouble to suit their own agenda.


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[ronaldo7]

Plenty other countries managed to have elections and referenda throughout this pandemic, surely we are not uniquely incapable of being able to manage that?

Paul Hutcheon from the Daily Ranger tried it on with his question at the briefing today, when he asked about how we could possibly have an election during the pandemic. It's already been discussed, cross party, and plans in place if we need to change the way we handle the election. More discussions to follow.

Not like the Daily Ranger to be on the Unionist bus. :greengrin

[degenerated]

Paul Hutcheon from the Daily Ranger tried it on with his question at the briefing today, when he asked about how we could possibly have an election during the pandemic. It's already been discussed, cross party, and plans in place if we need to change the way we handle the election. More discussions to follow.

Not like the Daily Ranger to be on the Unionist bus. :greengrinIt was the lead article in the Times today as well.

[Keith_M]

Plenty other countries managed to have elections and referenda throughout this pandemic, surely we are not uniquely incapable of being able to manage that?


Too wee, too stupid.

:wink:

[CloudSquall]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18983727.george-kerevan-scotland-must-stop-dewy-eyed-eu-focus-indy/

A piece from George Kerevan with a differing view on an independent Scotland joining the EU.

I dont agree with a lot of it especially on his view of having to use the Euro but I must admit I'd like a lot more critical thinking and analysis on a potential membership for an independent Scotland.

This mysty eyed "leave a light on for Scotland" chat is cringeworthy pish especially given how the position of the EU was in 2014.

[weecounty hibby]

Too wee, too stupid.

:wink:

That is exactly what this message is. The unionists yet again implying that Scotland is uniquely placed in being unable to do what most other nations manage to do without any real issue.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18983727.george-kerevan-scotland-must-stop-dewy-eyed-eu-focus-indy/

A piece from George Kerevan with a differing view on an independent Scotland joining the EU.

I dont agree with a lot of it especially on his view of having to use the Euro but I must admit I'd like a lot more critical thinking and analysis on a potential membership for an independent Scotland.

This mysty eyed "leave a light on for Scotland" chat is cringeworthy pish especially given how the position of the EU was in 2014.

I agree with little of the article but he is correct that an independent Scotland has to be in there shaping the direction of Europe and not just cheerleading for it. It’s very healthy to be critical of it. There should be an army of young well educated and trained Scots decamped to Brussels to sit on every committee, meeting, pressure groups etc. Our voice should be everywhere. There should be no decision made there that a Scots voice hasn’t helped shape. It shouldn’t be about just sending a handful of MEP’s and hoping for the best.
That said, remainers are a crucial piece of the jigsaw when it comes to getting a Yes vote so don’t expect anything critical of the EU until after we vote yes.


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[marinello59]

That is exactly what this message is. The unionists yet again implying that Scotland is uniquely placed in being unable to do what most other nations manage to do without any real issue.

No, it’s really not. Nobody is saying it can’t be done. It’s a question of should it be done. The decision will be made by our Government at Holyrood after discussions with other parties depending on what stage we are at with the pandemic. I trust them to make the right call. I really don’t see how delaying the election for a few months, if that’s what we have to do, is in any way a Yes v No issue. Hopefully it doesn’t come to it actually happening though.

[weecounty hibby]

No, it’s really not. Nobody is saying it can’t be done. It’s a question of should it be done. The decision will be made by our Government at Holyrood after discussions with other parties depending on what stage we are at with the pandemic. I trust them to make the right call. I really don’t see how delaying the election for a few months, if that’s what we have to do, is in any way a Yes v No issue. Hopefully it doesn’t come to it actually happening though.

Then why is no one other than the unionists press advocating it? I fully expect the elections to go ahead with possible changes to how we vote. It is another strategy to delay, maybe even cancel and try to get in place some kind of unity i.e not the SNP, government in place. I am already seeing that kind of suggestion being put out there. As with most things during the covid crisis I trust the Scottish govt to get it right. Can you imagine the outcry if the SNP said they were going to delay the election for another year and continue to run the country!?

[marinello59]

Then why is no one other than the unionists press advocating it? I fully expect the elections to go ahead with possible changes to how we vote. It is another strategy to delay, maybe even cancel and try to get in place some kind of unity i.e not the SNP, government in place. I am already seeing that kind of suggestion being put out there. As with most things during the covid crisis I trust the Scottish govt to get it right. Can you imagine the outcry if the SNP said they were going to delay the election for another year and continue to run the country!?

Do you think it would be a bad thing to delay the election by a few months if there was cross party support for to safety concerns during the pandemic? ( The only way it will happen is with cross party agreement.)
I think that it’s highly unlikely at this stage but the last ten months have been totally bonkers, who saw any of it coming?

[weecounty hibby]

Do you think it would be a bad thing to delay the election by a few months if there was cross party support for to safety concerns during the pandemic? ( The only way it will happen is with cross party agreement.)
I think that it’s highly unlikely at this stage but the last ten months have been totally bonkers, who saw any of it coming?
I wouldn't say it was necessarily a bad thing depending on how the crisis goes over the next 8 to 12 weeks. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is being raised now as the opposition/unionists parties and media can only see one outcome in May and that is a landslide SNP & pro independence parliament.

[degenerated]

I wouldn't say it was necessarily a bad thing depending on how the crisis goes over the next 8 to 12 weeks. But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is being raised now as the opposition/unionists parties and media can only see one outcome in May and that is a landslide SNP & pro independence parliament.Call me a cynic but you can guarantee the argument would be put forward that as the snp no longer had a mandate it would need to be a unity government during that period, or even worse a period of direct rule from Westminster till they deemed it safe :greengrin

[marinello59]

Call me a cynic but you can guarantee the argument would be put forward that as the snp no longer had a mandate it would need to be a unity government during that period, or even worse a period of direct rule from Westminster till they deemed it safe :greengrin

OK. You are a cynic. :greengrin

[degenerated]

OK. You are a cynic. :greengrinDeeply suspicious and highly cynical :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210105/3f27f52dda59b3aa9c73e1251f822f02.jpg

Wonder if they will ever get round to just merging the two parties?


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210105/3f27f52dda59b3aa9c73e1251f822f02.jpg

Wonder if they will ever get round to just merging the two parties?


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It annoys me more that bbc scotland broadcast the pm coronavirus speach when it has next to no relevance in a devolved nation.

[Jack]

It annoys me more that bbc scotland broadcast the pm coronavirus speach when it has next to no relevance in a devolved nation.

Hardly surprising. The 'national' or main news is almost always the English news. The devolved nations occasionally get a token mention. And then we and all the other regions get our local news.

For me the national or main news should be of pertinent interest to the whole UK and then follow it with stuff relevant to the area its broadcast to.

And don't get me started on the random live English football matches shown up here.

[Callum_62]

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/news/scotland/boris-johnson-says-there-would-be-no-covid-vaccine-in-independent-scotland/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

Too wee, too poor, too stupid to do as well as the UK it would appear

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[CloudSquall]

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/news/scotland/boris-johnson-says-there-would-be-no-covid-vaccine-in-independent-scotland/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

Too wee, too poor, too stupid to do as well as the UK it would appear

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Argentina with debt up to it's eyeballs, a devauled currency and runaway inflation has managed to secure a supply of millions of vaccines.


Closer to home and size one wonders how the Norwegians and Swiss will manage with no vaccine..

[Callum_62]

Argentina with debt up to it's eyeballs, a devauled currency and runaway inflation has managed to secure a supply of millions of vaccines.


Closer to home and size one wonders how the Norwegians and Swiss will manage with no vaccine..No that wee to help treat patients it would seem

https://t.co/fUBWq4jAVn

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[Callum_62]

I believe Bojo has said English local elections will go ahead in May

Scot tories be scrambling again [emoji23]

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[GlesgaeHibby]

I agree with you, it’s just there is a minority of plan b crazies in the party willing to cause trouble to suit their own agenda.


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I think that's an unduly harsh label, for folk within the SNP (ie on the same side) who want to make sure there is an alternative route to delivering independence when plan A fails.

When Boris says no, where is the pressure going to come from that will make him relent and agree to a s30? Not from within his own party. Not from Labour - Keir Starmer has already voiced his opposition quite clearly. Not from the unionist media.

Westminster has treated Scotland with utter contempt for years now, and the Tories are actively working to undermine devolution with the recently passed IMB. Why is that going to change after yet another SNP mandate for a referendum is won in May? Cameron only agreed to a s30 as he was confident he'd win (similar to Brexit) and that it would put the issue to bed. Everything including the kitchen sink was thrown at it last time, when polls started tightening. Those tactics won't work a second time, so they won't risk it. We'll be patronised and told the country needs to come together and recover as one UK after years of division (Brexit and Indyref) and the struggles of the pandemic. (I'll happily eat my words if Boris does grant a s30, but I just cannot see any scenario where that will happen sadly).

[lord bunberry]

I think that's an unduly harsh label, for folk within the SNP (ie on the same side) who want to make sure there is an alternative route to delivering independence when plan A fails.

When Boris says no, where is the pressure going to come from that will make him relent and agree to a s30? Not from within his own party. Not from Labour - Keir Starmer has already voiced his opposition quite clearly. Not from the unionist media.

Westminster has treated Scotland with utter contempt for years now, and the Tories are actively working to undermine devolution with the recently passed IMB. Why is that going to change after yet another SNP mandate for a referendum is won in May? Cameron only agreed to a s30 as he was confident he'd win (similar to Brexit) and that it would put the issue to bed. Everything including the kitchen sink was thrown at it last time, when polls started tightening. Those tactics won't work a second time, so they won't risk it. We'll be patronised and told the country needs to come together and recover as one UK after years of division (Brexit and Indyref) and the struggles of the pandemic. (I'll happily eat my words if Boris does grant a s30, but I just cannot see any scenario where that will happen sadly).
I’d be stunned if there wasn’t a plan b. The SNP have done a great job in raising support for independence by not talking about independence. They’ve let Westminster and the Tories do their job for them and sat back and watched support grow. The last thing they want at this time is to get embroiled in a constitutional debate in the middle of what many will see as a critical stage of the pandemic. Campaigning for the election will be low key and probably deliver a majority government, if the section 30 order is refused, support will hit new heights and that’s when plan b will be revealed.
I understand people being impatient, but we only need to get this right once for independence to become a reality and for credibility we need that to be this time.

[Ozyhibby]

Personally I would dissolve the parliament if a s30 order was refused and go back to the people.
One thing I wouldn’t do was tell Johnson what my plan B was, that would be dumb.


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[Keith_M]

.. The SNP have done a great job in raising support for independence by not talking about independence..


The first rule of The Independence Club is you never talk about The Independence Club?

[Jones28]

I agree with little of the article but he is correct that an independent Scotland has to be in there shaping the direction of Europe and not just cheerleading for it. It’s very healthy to be critical of it. There should be an army of young well educated and trained Scots decamped to Brussels to sit on every committee, meeting, pressure groups etc. Our voice should be everywhere. There should be no decision made there that a Scots voice hasn’t helped shape. It shouldn’t be about just sending a handful of MEP’s and hoping for the best.
That said, remainers are a crucial piece of the jigsaw when it comes to getting a Yes vote so don’t expect anything critical of the EU until after we vote yes.


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Exactly, theres no point slagging off the club you want to join when you havent even started the process to join it.

[lord bunberry]

The first rule of The Independence Club is you never talk about The Independence Club?
Exactly that. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotland-could-skip-referendum-and-follow-irish-route-independence-says-joanna-cherry-3089669


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[Keith_M]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotland-could-skip-referendum-and-follow-irish-route-independence-says-joanna-cherry-3089669

...


Didn't it used to be SNP Policy that they would declare Independence if they ever had a majority of MPs in Scotland?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-scotland-problem/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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[Ozyhibby]

Didn't it used to be SNP Policy that they would declare Independence if they ever had a majority of MPs in Scotland?

Yes but they changed it to promising a referendum in order to increase their appeal and win power. A referendum is now the settled route to independence and it should only be changed if and when a referendum is refused.


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[CloudSquall]

Anything other than an "official" referendum is going to see us in Catalunya territory.


Hard to say what a Plan B would be but I´d hope that a legal argument to put to the courts is being put together.

[StevieC]

Yes but they changed it to promising a referendum in order to increase their appeal and win power. A referendum is now the settled route to independence and it should only be changed if and when a referendum is refused.

Saw someone talking about a Plebiscite election yesterday.

Not sure of the full ins and outs, but the gist seemed to be that a 2/3rds Independence majority at the Holyrood election would allow a Plebiscite election to be called (with party mandates a simple yes/no to Independence).

[GlesgaeHibby]

Good article in the Herald on why Boris' won't budge on blocking indyref2

https://archive.vn/6469t (https://archive.vn/6469t)

"I’d say Mr Johnson can sustain his position quite a while. If it infuriated the SNP, angered Scotland and cost the Scottish Tories at the ballot box, that’s all perfectly bearable to the PM, given the alternative is not being PM.
What is unsustainable, as Ms Sturgeon’s internal critics remind her, is relying on opponents committing political suicide at your convenience.
The SNP’s other line of argument is that if Mr Johnson blocks Indyref2, it will boost support for independence, and only make things worse for the Union. This is unfathomably dim.
It’s saying, you either let Scotland vote for independence now or it’ll really vote for independence later.
Are we actually supposed to take that seriously? If the choice is between his defeat and someone else’s, he’ll take someone else’s every time."

[lapsedhibee]

Good article in the Herald on why Boris' won't budge on blocking indyref2

https://archive.vn/6469t (https://archive.vn/6469t)


Pretty hard to take seriously the musings of someone who thinks it's a realistic possibility that Johnson will be PM for ten years and that Sturgeon is dim. :crazy:

[GlesgaeHibby]

Pretty hard to take seriously the musings of someone who thinks it's a realistic possibility that Johnson will be PM for ten years and that Sturgeon is dim. :crazy:

Boris won't last that long, but granting and losing a referendum would finish him as it did Cameron. He's an idiot, but he cares enough about self preservation to know that he should steer clear of granting indyref2.

[Ozyhibby]

Boris won't last that long, but granting and losing a referendum would finish him as it did Cameron. He's an idiot, but he cares enough about self preservation to know that he should steer clear of granting indyref2.

Of course he will turn it down. Nobody expects anything different. But let’s make sure we win in May first and then put the request in on the back of a huge mandate. After that, that’s when we start talking about plan B.


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scotland-could-skip-referendum-and-follow-irish-route-independence-says-joanna-cherry-3089669


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You mean violence, take over the GPO building and be executed in jail. 🙄

[Ozyhibby]

You mean violence, take over the GPO building and be executed in jail. [emoji849]

She might be a clever lawyer but politically she is impatient and naive.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://capx.co/boris-should-bring-in-an-erasmus-for-the-home-nations/

How lacking in ideas the unionists are?


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[CloudSquall]

https://capx.co/boris-should-bring-in-an-erasmus-for-the-home-nations/

How lacking in ideas the unionists are?


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Replace Alicante, Lisbon, and Naples with Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham, the game is up boys, pack up and go home :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Replace Alicante, Lisbon, and Naples with Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham, the game is up boys, pack up and go home :greengrin

The funny thing is the article suggests that but then says it can’t be done? Weird.
Lots of Scots kids used to go to England to study but as soon a tuition fees came in that stopped. Not having fees kept our smartest kids in Scotland and severely weakened our ties with the UK.


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[Hibrandenburg]

https://capx.co/boris-should-bring-in-an-erasmus-for-the-home-nations/

How lacking in ideas the unionists are?


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First they need to convince the population of England that Scotland is part of Britain. They haven't managed that in over 300 years and aren't going to manage it before the next referendum. When meeting other Brits abroad I still regularly hear the mindset through the language that's spoken. "Do you still have an English passport or just German?" or "When was the last time you were home in England?" are just a few examples. It's not just us Scots they need to convince of our British credentials but also a large proportion of England too. Good luck with that.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/heres-why-holyrood-election-should-be-called-now-euan-mccolm-3090995

Cancel the election drumbeat starts.


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[Ozyhibby]

And Starmer shows that he can agree with Johnson on just about any subject.

https://t.co/uZHjGAeTo2


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[DaveF]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/heres-why-holyrood-election-should-be-called-now-euan-mccolm-3090995

Cancel the election drumbeat starts.


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And he will add, for good measure, that the focus of all politicians should be tackling the pandemic. Yes, yes, I know that he remained focused on Brexit while Covid-19 spread but politics is full of inconsistencies and hypocrisies and nationalists will just have to suck that one up.

Well, the above is quite convincing isn't it 😂

[Smartie]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/heres-why-holyrood-election-should-be-called-now-euan-mccolm-3090995

Cancel the election drumbeat starts.


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As I mentioned elsewhere, I’m actually in favour of postponing the election.

The earlier the call is made, the more legitimate it is.

I can’t understand why anyone would see the coronavirus figures as they are right now and think there should be political campaigning over the next few months then people going to poll stations.

It might only need to be put back a few months, but I think it’s only reasonable.

“Full attention” is only part of it, and I would like our FM to be fully focussed on the current situation. It’s about the simple practicalities of fighting a pandemic and also doing justice to a democratic process.

[marinello59]

She might be a clever lawyer but politically she is impatient and naive.


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Cherry is far from being politically naive. The timing of this just happened to coincide with MacAskill and Salmond’s latest assault on Nicola Sturgeon. It’s part of her leadership bid. Skullduggery I say.:greengrin

[marinello59]

As I mentioned elsewhere, I’m actually in favour of postponing the election.

The earlier the call is made, the more legitimate it is.

I can’t understand why anyone would see the coronavirus figures as they are right now and think there should be political campaigning over the next few months then people going to poll stations.

It might only need to be put back a few months, but I think it’s only reasonable.

“Full attention” is only part of it, and I would like our FM to be fully focussed on the current situation. It’s about the simple practicalities of fighting a pandemic and also doing justice to a democratic process.

I agree. As I said... ok waffled...earlier in the thread I struggle to see how anybody can see this as being a Yes/No issue.

[Ozyhibby]

Cherry is far from being politically naive. The timing of this just happened to coincide with MacAskill and Salmond’s latest assault on Nicola Sturgeon. It’s part of her leadership bid. Skullduggery I say.:greengrin

I think if she wanted to lead the party she should have went for a Holyrood seat. No chance an MP gets to be first minister.


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[marinello59]

I think if she wanted to lead the party she should have went for a Holyrood seat. No chance an MP gets to be first minister.


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If only she had thought of that herself. :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

As I mentioned elsewhere, I’m actually in favour of postponing the election.

The earlier the call is made, the more legitimate it is.

I can’t understand why anyone would see the coronavirus figures as they are right now and think there should be political campaigning over the next few months then people going to poll stations.

It might only need to be put back a few months, but I think it’s only reasonable.

“Full attention” is only part of it, and I would like our FM to be fully focussed on the current situation. It’s about the simple practicalities of fighting a pandemic and also doing justice to a democratic process.

FWIW I kind of agree with you but for different reasons. The drive for independence is a people's movement and without people gatherings and open debate the movement loses momentum. Let's get Covid19 under control and have the autopsy of Johnson's handling of the crisis then get it done.

[Peevemor]

Cherry is far from being politically naive. The timing of this just happened to coincide with MacAskill and Salmond’s latest assault on Nicola Sturgeon. It’s part of her leadership bid. Skullduggery I say.:greengrinShe must think we're naive then. There's no comparison between modern day Scotland and the South of Ireland 100+ years ago, especially in terms of value to the UK.

[marinello59]

She must think we're naive then. There's no comparison between modern day Scotland and the South of Ireland 100+ years ago, especially in terms of value to the UK.

I made no comment about the content. :greengrin
There are more than a few in the SNP who are not happy with Sturgeon’s slow , deliberate approach. Cherry was reminding them that there is an alternative leader in waiting if the opportunity arose.

[Ozyhibby]

FWIW I kind of agree with you but for different reasons. The drive for independence is a people's movement and without people gatherings and open debate the movement loses momentum. Let's get Covid19 under control and have the autopsy of Johnson's handling of the crisis then get it done.

Totally agree. The Indy movements great advantage is the ability to generate excitement through mass gatherings. It would be madness to give up that advantage.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55608339?__twitter_impression=true

Scotland isn’t working but I don’t know what would be better says Keir, so just carry on as you are.


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[ACLeith]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/heres-why-holyrood-election-should-be-called-now-euan-mccolm-3090995

Cancel the election drumbeat starts.


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Cancelling or not is not the key question. It’s what happens if it is. Are those wanting to cancel happy for the current government to carry on until it is time? Or impose a different make up of government on us? Or suspend it and impose direct rule from WM?

[The Modfather]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55608339?__twitter_impression=true

Scotland isn’t working but I don’t know what would be better says Keir, so just carry on as you are.


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I’m starting to warm to Starmer after he called out that the contractor market has been left behind and now admitting the status quo isn’t working. Even if I disagree with him about the resulting need for a referendum, but I am warming to him. Even if he does play the violin... 😀

[weecounty hibby]

Cancelling or not is not the key question. It’s what happens if it is. Are those wanting to cancel happy for the current government to carry on until it is time? Or impose a different make up of government on us? Or suspend it and impose direct rule from WM?
Yeah and that is my issues with the suspension of the election. I have already seen people suggesting that there should be some kind of unity government up. Mostly by those that are against democracy by by stopping a second indy ref. Coincidence?

[Ozyhibby]

I’m starting to warm to Starmer after he called out that the contractor market has been left behind and now admitting the status quo isn’t working. Even if I disagree with him about the resulting need for a referendum, but I am warming to him. Even if he does play the violin... [emoji3]

Can’t really warm to him unless he has solutions. He was pretty much just whining that all he hears from Scotland is about a referendum without saying what he thought was better?
He’s saying what we have is crap but it’s the best he can offer? No thanks.
And at the same time he wants to stop us being a democracy.


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[marinello59]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-55608339?__twitter_impression=true

Scotland isn’t working but I don’t know what would be better says Keir, so just carry on as you are.


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That's really not what he is saying though. He is admitting something has to change and wants to investigate another way forward.
I have no problem at all with alternatives solutions to the democratic deficit being put forward. I think the case for Independence is rock solid and will happen before the end of the decade but simply pretending there will no other ideas out there that could gain support would be just a bit silly.

[Ozyhibby]

That's really not what he is saying though. He is admitting something has to change and wants to investigate another way forward.
I have no problem at all with alternatives solutions to the democratic deficit being put forward. I think the case for Independence is rock solid and will happen before the end of the decade but simply pretending there will no other ideas out there that could gain support would be just a bit silly.

He isn’t offering any ideas though. He’s offering yet another commission to report some time in the distant future that would only be able to deliver in the rare event of a UK Labour govt? I think that the time for that has already past and that’s not where the Scottish public are anymore.


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[ACLeith]

Yeah and that is my issues with the suspension of the election. I have already seen people suggesting that there should be some kind of unity government up. Mostly by those that are against democracy by by stopping a second indy ref. Coincidence?
If there is no election then Ross can’t take over the Tories. But Davidson will have jumped ship. Step forward Murdo that fine upstanding fair minded bigot.

On a more serious side there are a number of members who wish to retire as they feel the time is right i.e. for good reasons and not to be fitted for ermine so that’s going to be a challenge for them.

[Colr]

I’m starting to warm to Starmer after he called out that the contractor market has been left behind and now admitting the status quo isn’t working. Even if I disagree with him about the resulting need for a referendum, but I am warming to him. Even if he does play the violin... 😀

Hing is with Starmer’s view for me is that it is reflective of my long-term opinion that the UK would be better to move to a federal model, scrapping the house of lords in favour of a UK joint assembly but Labour are not in power. They’re not even ahead in the polls. They’ve got very little chance of delivering. Instead England has moved very far to the right and keeps voting in a Tory government which disregards Scotland. Scotland needs independence to remove itself from a toxic relationship with Tory England and Wales before more damage is done. Even if a federal approach was on the table, we’d be far better negotiating that from the position of strength that independence would provide. It also means Scotland would be back in the UK quicker.

Starmer’s plan has passed its sell by date. Too little too late from Labour.

[Curried]

I think Starmer is confused on which party he’s in.

I just watched him on Marr saying: 1) re Covid, that schools should remain open, 2) re Brexit, that free movement of people should be curtailed, and 3) re Scotland, that their people should have no democratic right to determine their future.

[ronaldo7]

I think Starmer is confused on which party he’s in.

I just watched him on Marr saying: 1) re Covid, that schools should remain open, 2) re Brexit, that free movement of people should be curtailed, and 3) re Scotland, that their people should have no democratic right to determine their future.

His stance on the EU, and free movement of people is totally against what he said a year ago. It was like watching Johnson but just without the timescales.

You can't have this, and you can't have that isn't going to work.

[Colr]

I think Starmer is confused on which party he’s in.

I just watched him on Marr saying: 1) re Covid, that schools should remain open, 2) re Brexit, that free movement of people should be curtailed, and 3) re Scotland, that their people should have no democratic right to determine their future.

I find him frustrating. Still wish we had Yvette Cooper in charge.

[Jack]

If either of the English based parties were serious about an alternative to the status quo they've had plenty time since the last referendum to propose it.

However quite the reverse has happened with Scottish MPs having less power in Westminster, EVEL, about to be fewer of them and brexit seeing reserved matters taken to Westminster to name but a few.

Far from appeasing the rebellious Scots Westminster seems intent on putting us back in our box and shutting the lid so they can't hear us whinging.

[Colr]

If either of the English based parties were serious about an alternative to the status quo they've had plenty time since the last referendum to propose it.

However quite the reverse has happened with Scottish MPs having less power in Westminster, EVEL, about to be fewer of them and brexit seeing reserved matters taken to Westminster to name but a few.

Far from appeasing the rebellious Scots Westminster seems intent on putting us back in our box and shutting the lid so they can't hear us whinging.

Maybe Kier could offer a position in the shadow cabinet to an SNP member. Doubt they’d accept.

[wookie70]

Hing is with Starmer’s view for me is that it is reflective of my long-term opinion that the UK would be better to move to a federal model, scrapping the house of lords in favour of a UK joint assembly but Labour are not in power. They’re not even ahead in the polls. They’ve got very little chance of delivering. Instead England has moved very far to the right and keeps voting in a Tory government which disregards Scotland. Scotland needs independence to remove itself from a toxic relationship with Tory England and Wales before more damage is done. Even if a federal approach was on the table, we’d be far better negotiating that from the position of strength that independence would provide. It also means Scotland would be back in the UK quicker.

Starmer’s plan has passed its sell by date. Too little too late from Labour.

That is where I am at. I think English voters solution to the mess that the Tories have created with Brexit, Covid and devolution is that they will want them to move further right. I get the feeling that there is still lots of little Englanders waiting to "come out"

[Mr Grieves]

His stance on the EU, and free movement of people is totally against what he said a year ago. It was like watching Johnson but just without the timescales.

You can't have this, and you can't have that isn't going to work.

He knows the only way he'll win the next election is to pander to British nationalism. It's utterly depressing and will not do Scottish Labour any favours.

[Hibrandenburg]

He knows the only way he'll win the next election is to pander to British nationalism. It's utterly depressing and will not do Scottish Labour any favours.

Yep, instead of setting the agenda, Labour are just following the votes meaning a continuous cycle of more of the same. Say what you like about Corbyn, but at least he hinted at some real change, however England doesn't want change so we're stuck with the same old status quo.

[Ozyhibby]

He knows the only way he'll win the next election is to pander to British nationalism. It's utterly depressing and will not do Scottish Labour any favours.

Starmer is about two steps away from putting on a blonde wig.


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[ronaldo7]

Maybe Kier could offer a position in the shadow cabinet to an SNP member. Doubt they’d accept.

We hopefully won't be anywhere near Westminster in 2024. The last time the SNP held out the hand of friendship to labour, we were told to bolt. It happens all the time.

[ronaldo7]

If either of the English based parties were serious about an alternative to the status quo they've had plenty time since the last referendum to propose it.

However quite the reverse has happened with Scottish MPs having less power in Westminster, EVEL, about to be fewer of them and brexit seeing reserved matters taken to Westminster to name but a few.

Far from appeasing the rebellious Scots Westminster seems intent on putting us back in our box and shutting the lid so they can't hear us whinging.

Spot on.

[Smartie]

He knows the only way he'll win the next election is to pander to British nationalism. It's utterly depressing and will not do Scottish Labour any favours.

I'm not so sure.

The moderate centre ground is just sitting there waiting for someone to take it.

The question for Starmer is whether he antagonises more of his core vote trying to claim that, or by competing with Johnson for the dafties.

Or he could just accept being a party of protest and remain in opposition.

I don't envy him, it's not an easy choice and he's got traps set for him everywhere he goes, when in fact wiping the floor with as weak an opponent as Johnson should be quite easy. He was bolstered by the Brexit vote before, he won't have that next time.

Very interesting.

[JeMeSouviens]

Former Lab front bencher Clive Lewis surprisingly open to stating the bleeding obvious. :wink:

https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/1348338360151113729


Post-Brexit it now seems increasingly clear the Scottish people have two clear choices before them:
1. Union with a declining imperial power, ruled by hard-right, neoliberal English nationalists - or (cont)

2. Vote for Scottish independence and look to rejoin the EU, an emerging power with democratic institutions gaining in power, not receding. Hmmmm Thinking face

[cabbageandribs1875]

Former Lab front bencher Clive Lewis surprisingly open to stating the bleeding obvious. :wink:

https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/1348338360151113729


lol was just about to put that up...


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/138058313_1889017757914308_6694817644902349841_o.j pg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=YR8tbV68vb4AX9LDanx&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=58ad9ff0877b44ce67d2ad6fb578a659&oe=602250C6


now THAT's what's called democracy Starmer, keep yer kneb out of Scotland, we're not your play toy

[cabbageandribs1875]

I find him frustrating. Still wish we had Yvette Cooper in charge.


yep she's ok as well, or Zarah Sultana, doesn't hold back giving it tight to the tories, unlike starmer who's in johnson's back pocket




i never ever thought i'd actually prefer Corbyn back instead of starmer, even emily thornberry would be better :)

[SHODAN]

We hopefully won't be anywhere near Westminster in 2024. The last time the SNP held out the hand of friendship to labour, we were told to bolt. It happens all the time.

:agree:

Ed Miliband: "I would rather we weren't in government than governing with the SNP."

He got his wish.

[Keith_M]

I'm not so sure.

The moderate centre ground is just sitting there waiting for someone to take it.

The question for Starmer is whether he antagonises more of his core vote trying to claim that, or by competing with Johnson for the dafties.

Or he could just accept being a party of protest and remain in opposition.

I don't envy him, it's not an easy choice and he's got traps set for him everywhere he goes, when in fact wiping the floor with as weak an opponent as Johnson should be quite easy. He was bolstered by the Brexit vote before, he won't have that next time.

Very interesting.


That's very true, and reinforces my current view that our 'Union' with EATOB* is a busted flush.

I just want to point out that I'm not a 'rabid Nationalist', or someone who's ever had extreme views on the subject, but I'm now completely convinced that relying on England** to vote in a moderate, caring Government is now a complete waste of time.




* EATOB: England And The Other Bits.

** Sorry if anybody disagrees with that but we've basically been given the government that England voted for as far back as I care to remember, regardless of Scotland's vote.

[Jones28]

The Daily Express claiming the latest iteration of Nigel Farages brand of politics could torpedo Independence, with quotes from a political analyst that actually have no bearing on the main substance of the article.

Nigel Farage’s Reform UK 'could get HUGE support' as Nicola Sturgeon under pressure | Politics | News | Express.co.uk (https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1382963/nigel-farage-reform-uk-polling-data-news-snp-scotland-independence-nicola-sturgeon-spt)

Anyone think that this new party could pander to the extremes that do exist in Scotland but who's only voice was a vote for the Conservatives?


I DO NOT read that rag, I just wanted to see who Michelle Ballyntyne was and it came up on Google.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Daily Express claiming the latest iteration of Nigel Farages brand of politics could torpedo Independence, with quotes from a political analyst that actually have no bearing on the main substance of the article.

Nigel Farage’s Reform UK 'could get HUGE support' as Nicola Sturgeon under pressure | Politics | News | Express.co.uk (https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1382963/nigel-farage-reform-uk-polling-data-news-snp-scotland-independence-nicola-sturgeon-spt)

Anyone think that this new party could pander to the extremes that do exist in Scotland but who's only voice was a vote for the Conservatives?


I DO NOT read that rag, I just wanted to see who Michelle Ballyntyne was and it came up on Google.

I suppose it might attract a few Sevconians? I would have thought it will attract approaching zero indy supporters. If anyone should be worried it would be the Tories, who can ill afford to lose any votes to the further right. I would be surprised if they get any more than a couple of seats at best. More likely none.

[Hibrandenburg]

The Daily Express claiming the latest iteration of Nigel Farages brand of politics could torpedo Independence, with quotes from a political analyst that actually have no bearing on the main substance of the article.

Nigel Farage’s Reform UK 'could get HUGE support' as Nicola Sturgeon under pressure | Politics | News | Express.co.uk (https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1382963/nigel-farage-reform-uk-polling-data-news-snp-scotland-independence-nicola-sturgeon-spt)

Anyone think that this new party could pander to the extremes that do exist in Scotland but who's only voice was a vote for the Conservatives?


I DO NOT read that rag, I just wanted to see who Michelle Ballyntyne was and it came up on Google.

Bring it on. If anything it will drive more votes to the indy side. Farage campaigning in Scotland for the union would be an absolute gift.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/independent-scotland-could-be-top-of-the-list-to-join-the-eu?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Very good news. [emoji106]


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