Scottish Independence

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/highlands-islands/shetland-council-to-explore-ways-of-achieving-autonomy

Independence vote for Shetland.

[Glory Lurker]

https://news.stv.tv/highlands-islands/shetland-council-to-explore-ways-of-achieving-autonomy

Independence vote for Shetland.

Fair enough.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

https://news.stv.tv/highlands-islands/shetland-council-to-explore-ways-of-achieving-autonomy

Independence vote for Shetland.

They've been enviously watching the Faroes for the past generation.
What's been achieved up there is truly remarkable.

[Mon Dieu4]

https://news.stv.tv/highlands-islands/shetland-council-to-explore-ways-of-achieving-autonomy

Independence vote for Shetland.

Hope Leith follows them, it's time

[Ozyhibby]

They've been enviously watching the Faroes for the past generation.
What's been achieved up there is truly remarkable.

Faroes has double the population and still receives a subsidy from Denmark. They should definitely pursue more autonomy if that’s what they want. Holyrood should be devolving a lot of powers to a more local level anyway.


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[Glory Lurker]

Holyrood should be devolving a lot of powers to a more local level anyway.


I'm wary of that as it could lead to postcode lotteries all over the place. The inconsistency in how home learning was run during the lockdown being a prime example.

I can see a case for more autonomy for Shetland and other remote communities, though.

[Glory Lurker]

Hope Leith follows them, it's time

Would the border be somewhere through the middle of ER? Would we need a visa to go to the pie stall? What currency would we use when we got there?

[marinello59]

Faroes has double the population and still receives a subsidy from Denmark. They should definitely pursue more autonomy if that’s what they want. Holyrood should be devolving a lot of powers to a more local level anyway.


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If Holyrood doesn’t devolve more powers down to a local level after independence then there really is no point in it. My biggest gripe with the SNP is their centralist stance on most things..

[Ozyhibby]

If Holyrood doesn’t devolve more powers down to a local level after independence then there really is no point in it. My biggest gripe with the SNP is their centralist stance on most things..

It’s very difficult to devolve powers more within the current constitutional arrangement. Real devolution means that taxing and spending are done locally. We can’t really do that in Scotland as everything runs on a system of grants from the UK govt. it’s the reason why reforming council tax is so difficult. Every party says they want to do it but it never happens.


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[Steven79]

It’s very difficult to devolve powers more within the current constitutional arrangement. Real devolution means that taxing and spending are done locally. We can’t really do that in Scotland as everything runs on a system of grants from the UK govt. it’s the reason why reforming council tax is so difficult. Every party says they want to do it but it never happens.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLet's get Independence first then decide on how we are going to decorate the place...

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[Hibrandenburg]

Let's get Independence first then decide on how we are going to decorate the place...

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I think it would be clever to at least have a look at some brochures first and check out what kinds of paint are available.

[marinello59]

It’s very difficult to devolve powers more within the current constitutional arrangement. Real devolution means that taxing and spending are done locally. We can’t really do that in Scotland as everything runs on a system of grants from the UK govt. it’s the reason why reforming council tax is so difficult. Every party says they want to do it but it never happens.


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The SNP promised to replace the council tax, they stuck it on a bus size poster then failed to deliver even after they became a majority government.
I do agree independence will allow more to be done, much more.

[Moulin Yarns]

If Holyrood doesn’t devolve more powers down to a local level after independence then there really is no point in it. My biggest gripe with the SNP is their centralist stance on most things..

That's it. I'm going to have to lie down because I agree with an Admin. 😉

[Moulin Yarns]

I think it would be clever to at least have a look at some brochures first and check out what kinds of paint are available.

We would end up walking on eggshell.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/white-paper-scotland-westminster-devolution-internal-market-eu

Article explaining just how much devolution will be undermined.


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[Jack]

The SNP promised to replace the council tax, they stuck it on a bus size poster then failed to deliver even after they became a majority government.
I do agree independence will allow more to be done, much more.

To be honest I think local government needs a revamp, not just the tax system. You only have to look at our three main cities to see what a shambles they can make of things. I'm sure those that live in the other council areas wouldn't find it difficult to produce lengthy lists of faults.

[marinello59]

To be honest I think local government needs a revamp, not just the tax system. You only have to look at our three main cities to see what a shambles they can make of things. I'm sure those that live in the other council areas wouldn't find it difficult to produce lengthy lists of faults.

I totally agree.

[Ozyhibby]

To be honest I think local government needs a revamp, not just the tax system. You only have to look at our three main cities to see what a shambles they can make of things. I'm sure those that live in the other council areas wouldn't find it difficult to produce lengthy lists of faults.

I always think that Fife council seem to do a good job. The place always seems to be kept a lot tidier that Edinburgh with grass verges all cut and roundabouts well maintained. Maybe if I lived there I would think different? Edinburgh looks a total mess just now.


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[Jack]

I always think that Fife council seem to do a good job. The place always seems to be kept a lot tidier that Edinburgh with grass verges all cut and roundabouts well maintained. Maybe if I lived there I would think different? Edinburgh looks a total mess just now.


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Agreed. I don't live there either. We'll have a mad Fifer along in a minute though to put us right lol

[jonty]

I always think that Fife council seem to do a good job. The place always seems to be kept a lot tidier that Edinburgh with grass verges all cut and roundabouts well maintained. Maybe if I lived there I would think different? Edinburgh looks a total mess just now.


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Agreed. I don't live there either. We'll have a mad Fifer along in a minute though to put us right lol

The grass is always greener........

[danhibees1875]

The grass is always greener........

...in Fife?

[JeMeSouviens]

...in Fife?

Are there 2 Fifes? :confused:

[Moulin Yarns]

Are there 2 Fifes? :confused:

Robertson and bananas 😁

[danhibees1875]

Are there 2 Fifes? :confused:

That makes 10.

[Beefster]

I always think that Fife council seem to do a good job. The place always seems to be kept a lot tidier that Edinburgh with grass verges all cut and roundabouts well maintained. Maybe if I lived there I would think different? Edinburgh looks a total mess just now.


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I have to admit that I chuckled at a council getting a glowing review because they cut grass and plant some flowers! I’d think that schools, social work, roads, libraries etc might be better criteria.

[Keith_M]

The grass is always greener........


...on the other side of the Forth Bridge

[Ozyhibby]

I have to admit that I chuckled at a council getting a glowing review because they cut grass and plant some flowers! I’d think that schools, social work, roads, libraries etc might be better criteria.

I think that it’s important to not let the place look like a dump the way Edinburgh does.


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[Keith_M]

:agree: Luckily I feel safe to comment without worrying about being told to go and ****ing live there if I like it that much.



:singing:

"Oh Flower of Deutschland,
When will we Sie,
...and sometimes Du?
Imagine a country,
...where men have to sit down on the Loo!
Full of bl**dy Ex-Pats,
..that think they're Scot-Nats.
They should send them home-ward,
...to share our gloom!"

:singing:






I'm available for weddings and bar-mitzvahs.

:aok:

[JeMeSouviens]

Fair play to Labour’s Pauline McNeill who got well stuck in to the Tories’ attack on devolution today at Holyrood.

[Hibrandenburg]

:singing:

"Oh Flower of Deutschland,
When will we Sie,
...and sometimes Du?
Imagine a country,
...where men have to sit down on the Loo!
Full of bl**dy Ex-Pats,
..that think they're Scot-Nats.
They should send them home-ward,
...to share our gloom!"

:singing:






I'm available for weddings and bar-mitzvahs.

:aok:

I see you picked up the German humour whilst over here. 😉

[stoneyburn hibs]

I always think that Fife council seem to do a good job. The place always seems to be kept a lot tidier that Edinburgh with grass verges all cut and roundabouts well maintained. Maybe if I lived there I would think different? Edinburgh looks a total mess just now.


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It's probably that the Edinburgh Council workers are lazier.
Your comment months ago about Council workers happy to be on furlough and do **** all sticks in the craw.
It was unjustified, incorrect and downright rude.

[Ozyhibby]

It's probably that the Edinburgh Council workers are lazier.
Your comment months ago about Council workers happy to be on furlough and do **** all sticks in the craw.
It was unjustified, incorrect and downright rude.

I didn’t actually mean council workers, I meant council finance officials are happy keeping people on furlough. The council workers themselves have to do as they are told.


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[Hibrandenburg]

:singing:

"Oh Flower of Deutschland,
When will we Sie,
...and sometimes Du?
Imagine a country,
...where men have to sit down on the Loo!
Full of bl**dy Ex-Pats,
..that think they're Scot-Nats.
They should send them home-ward,
...to share our gloom!"

:singing:






I'm available for weddings and bar-mitzvahs.

:aok:

I see you picked up the German humour whilst over here. 😉

[stoneyburn hibs]

I didn’t actually mean council workers, I meant council finance officials are happy keeping people on furlough. The council workers themselves have to do as they are told.


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I can only comment on what I see.
No Council employees were furloughed.

[Ozyhibby]

I can only comment on what I see.
No Council employees were furloughed.

I was more thinking Edin leisure staff which technically is not the council.


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[ronaldo7]

Fair play to Labour’s Pauline McNeill who got well stuck in to the Tories’ attack on devolution today at Holyrood.

She's always been one who seemed likely to come across to yes.

She will eventually see the light.

[Moulin Yarns]

I can only comment on what I see.
No Council employees were furloughed.

Were all council services running as normal? Were libraries open from April to September? Could you walk into the council office behind the station and meet a planning officer? Or a housing officer? Or benefit officer?

Reason I ask is that in my local authority the head office is closed, as in not staffed. I know some people are working from home but some are on furlough because they can't work from home.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Were all council services running as normal? Were libraries open from April to September? Could you walk into the council office behind the station and meet a planning officer? Or a housing officer? Or benefit officer?

Reason I ask is that in my local authority the head office is closed, as in not staffed. I know some people are working from home but some are on furlough because they can't work from home.

No council office or manned building is running as normal. The office staff i normally deal with (WLC) will be working from home for the foreseeable. They are now starting to be allowed to work from the office 2 days a week if they request it.
May be different for part time staff, don't know of any council staff being furloughed.
I'd be surprised if there were.

[Mr Grieves]

Were all council services running as normal? Were libraries open from April to September? Could you walk into the council office behind the station and meet a planning officer? Or a housing officer? Or benefit officer?

Reason I ask is that in my local authority the head office is closed, as in not staffed. I know some people are working from home but some are on furlough because they can't work from home.

Around 3% of Edinburgh Council employees were furloughed, mainly folk that work in museums, the usher Hall and catering staff. The vast majority of staff continued to work from home, at their workplace if they were deemed to be a key worker (crematorium, mortuary, refuse collectors, care workers etc) or redeployed to critical roles (food deliveries to the vulnerable, some critical roles outside the council).

[JeMeSouviens]

Survation joins Panelbase, YouGov and ComRes in showing Yes clearly ahead:

Y 53
N 47

The last Survation poll in January was 50-50.


Holyrood Constituency:

SNP 53
Con 20
Lab 18
Lib 7


List:

SNP 42
Con 18
Lab 18
Grn 10
Lib 8


Westminster:

SNP 51
Lab 21
Con 20
Lib 6


Interesting to see a slight shift in the Unionist vote from Con->Lab which is presumably either a +ve Starmer effect, a -ve Lino effect or a bit of both.

[Moulin Yarns]

Survation joins Panelbase, YouGov and ComRes in showing Yes clearly ahead:

Y 53
N 47

The last Survation poll in January was 50-50.


Holyrood Constituency:

SNP 53
Con 20
Lab 18
Lib 7


List:

SNP 42
Con 18
Lab 18
Grn 10
Lib 8


Westminster:

SNP 51
Lab 21
Con 20
Lib 6


Interesting to see a slight shift in the Unionist vote from Con->Lab which is presumably either a +ve Starmer effect, a -ve Lino effect or a bit of both.

Oi. Keep football out of the holy ground 😉

[JeMeSouviens]

Oi. Keep football out of the holy ground 😉

He's a crap lino as well. :na na:

[Moulin Yarns]

Survation joins Panelbase, YouGov and ComRes in showing Yes clearly ahead:

Y 53
N 47

The last Survation poll in January was 50-50.


Holyrood Constituency:

SNP 53
Con 20
Lab 18
Lib 7


List:

SNP 42
Con 18
Lab 18
Grn 10
Lib 8


Westminster:

SNP 51
Lab 21
Con 20
Lib 6


Interesting to see a slight shift in the Unionist vote from Con->Lab which is presumably either a +ve Starmer effect, a -ve Lino effect or a bit of both.

Seat projection, Survation 2-7 Sept (changes vs 20-22 Jan / 2016 election);

SNP - 70 (+6 / +7)
Labour - 21 (-3 / -3)
Conservative - 20 (-4 / -11)
Green - 10 (+1 / +4)
Lib Dem - 8 (nc / +3) https://t.co/C5kVni3URS

[Moulin Yarns]

Seat projection, Survation 2-7 Sept (changes vs 20-22 Jan / 2016 election);

SNP - 70 (+6 / +7)
Labour - 21 (-3 / -3)
Conservative - 20 (-4 / -11)
Green - 10 (+1 / +4)
Lib Dem - 8 (nc / +3) https://t.co/C5kVni3URS

Doing the hypothetical "what if actual PR rather than the weirdo mix that is AMS?" Scandi-style projection (changes vs AMS);

SNP - 56 (-14)
Conservative - 24 (+4)
Labour - 24 (+3)
Green - 14 (+4)
Lib Dem - 11 (+3) https://t.co/ciPjGVF3ec

[Ozyhibby]

Doing the hypothetical "what if actual PR rather than the weirdo mix that is AMS?" Scandi-style projection (changes vs AMS);

SNP - 56 (-14)
Conservative - 24 (+4)
Labour - 24 (+3)
Green - 14 (+4)
Lib Dem - 11 (+3) https://t.co/ciPjGVF3ec

The campaign for actual PR will start soon from the Tories in line with their long held support for it.[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

Seat projection, Survation 2-7 Sept (changes vs 20-22 Jan / 2016 election);

SNP - 70 (+6 / +7)
Labour - 21 (-3 / -3)
Conservative - 20 (-4 / -11)
Green - 10 (+1 / +4)
Lib Dem - 8 (nc / +3) https://t.co/C5kVni3URS

If that seat projection works out, Labour become the official opposition again. And indyref 2 would be very hard to deny.


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[Keith_M]

I see you picked up the German humour whilst over here. 😉


Thanks, it's nice to be appreciated.

:wink:

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200912/67332cede8d63ab705245353c54fd0ea.plist

Return of the Vow? The polls do appear to have unionists panicking.


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[Bristolhibby]

I see Ewan McGregor has shifted to yes.

It’s coming!

https://twitter.com/theskotia/status/1304826611850711040?s=21 https

[RitchieHibs]

I see Ewan McGregor has shifted to yes.

It’s coming!

https://twitter.com/theskotia/status/1304826611850711040?s=21 https

Me too. I'm a recent convert to the SNP. Albeit I did vote yes in the last referendum. I've just never been convinced by the SNP until very recently. We need to get our own affairs sorted by folk who know what the Scottish folk want.

[FifeHibs]

Me too. I'm a recent convert to the SNP. Albeit I did vote yes in the last referendum. I've just never been convinced by the SNP until very recently. We need to get our own affairs sorted by folk who know what the Scottish folk want.

How much will the national debt be after furlough? And covid in general?

[Ozyhibby]

How much will the national debt be after furlough? And covid in general?

UK national debt is now over £2trillion and over 100% of our GDP.


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[Bristolhibby]

How much will the national debt be after furlough? And covid in general?

Struggling to see the relevance in response to RH’s post.

He was saying he has come to the opinion that Scotland must be governed by the people of Scotland and you come back with a question about the U.K. debt and COVID (something all independent countries are having to cope with).

Was it the wrong quote clicked?

J

[Pretty Boy]

Me too. I'm a recent convert to the SNP. Albeit I did vote yes in the last referendum. I've just never been convinced by the SNP until very recently. We need to get our own affairs sorted by folk who know what the Scottish folk want.

Out of curiosity what is it that has convinced you about the SNP? I was, and will be, a Yes voter and have voted SNP at all but one of the last 6 elections for various parliaments. I don't think I have ever been less convinced by the SNP, particularly over the last couple of years.

I'd accept at least part of that is due to the fatigue that comes when an incumbent government has been in place for a prolonged period. However as someone who considers myself a 'soft' socialist first and a nationalist a distant second my misgivings run far deeper. The SNP are largely a means to an end for me but I also have to remind myself running the country is a here and now business whilst the constitutional question remains one for the future. There's an inevitability about that now and if the Yes conglomerate can avoid an implosion then it will happen, probably sooner rather than later.

The lack of a viable alternative in Scotland frustrates me and as it stands I am in the position of being highly unlikely to vote next May for the 1st time in my adult life. I've always accepted you likely have to sacrifice some of your principles at election time but this time I think the scales would have tipped too far whatever way I voted.

[Moulin Yarns]

Schrödinger's Unionists https://t.co/zk00E42AHv

[RitchieHibs]

Out of curiosity what is it that has convinced you about the SNP? I was, and will be, a Yes voter and have voted SNP at all but one of the last 6 elections for various parliaments. I don't think I have ever been less convinced by the SNP, particularly over the last couple of years.

I'd accept at least part of that is due to the fatigue that comes when an incumbent government has been in place for a prolonged period. However as someone who considers myself a 'soft' socialist first and a nationalist a distant second my misgivings run far deeper. The SNP are largely a means to an end for me but I also have to remind myself running the country is a here and now business whilst the constitutional question remains one for the future. There's an inevitability about that now and if the Yes conglomerate can avoid an implosion then it will happen, probably sooner rather than later.

The lack of a viable alternative in Scotland frustrates me and as it stands I am in the position of being highly unlikely to vote next May for the 1st time in my adult life. I've always accepted you likely have to sacrifice some of your principles at election time but this time I think the scales would have tipped too far whatever way I voted.

Nicola Sturgeon in a nutshell. I didn't care for Salmond but I rate Nicola very highly indeed. The Snp are the only answer against harsh, non inclusive, hate filled unionist parties.

[Colr]

Me too. I'm a recent convert to the SNP. Albeit I did vote yes in the last referendum. I've just never been convinced by the SNP until very recently. We need to get our own affairs sorted by folk who know what the Scottish folk want.

I don't get to vote ‘up the road’ but having been convinced by the advantages of being part of the union previously due the quality and influence of Westminster I have now completely changed my view. The current ****show run by Russian compromised carpet baggers is utterly corrupt and Scotland is best served by having no more part of it.

Much of the quality in the New Labour government came from Scots MPs. Scots MPs of quality will have no influence in Westminster now and for the foreseeable future. Better they serve Scotland from Edinburgh.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/13/covid-crisis-changing-minds-scottish-independence

[RitchieHibs]

I don't get to vote ‘up the road’ but having been convinced by the advantages of being part of the union previously due the quality and influence of Westminster I have now completely changed my view. The current ****show run by Russian compromised carpet baggers is utterly corrupt and Scotland is best served by having no more part of it.

Much of the quality in the New Labour government came from Scots MPs. Scots MPs of quality will have no influence in Westminster now and for the foreseeable future. Better they serve Scotland from Edinburgh.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/13/covid-crisis-changing-minds-scottish-independence

I agree. Its time for change. Independence is the opportunity that we need to move completely away from the hate filled sectarian unionist division that has ravaged Scotland and its folk for decades.

[marinello59]

I agree. Its time for change. Independence is the opportunity that we need to move completely away from the hate filled sectarian unionist division that has ravaged Scotland and its folk for decades.

Which Scotland have you been living in? Hate filled sectarian unionist division? I love living in this country, one of the best places in the world to live.

[DaveF]

Which Scotland have you been living in? Hate filled sectarian unionist division? I love living in this country, one of the best places in the world to live.

How many places have you lived in to compare? (Sits down for incoming life story 😁)

[marinello59]

How many places have you lived in to compare? (Sits down for incoming life story 😁)

North east village, Aberdeen City, Glasgow City, Islay.... and worked extensively all over Scotland and the islands. It’s pretty damn good everywhere really. :greengrin

[RitchieHibs]

Which Scotland have you been living in? Hate filled sectarian unionist division? I love living in this country, one of the best places in the world to live.

I love Scotland too but I'm more convinced than ever that we should go for Independence as soon as we can.

[DaveF]

North east village, Aberdeen City, Glasgow City, Islay.... and worked extensively all over Scotland and the islands. It’s pretty damn good everywhere really. :greengrin

You were convincing until you mentioned Glasgow. Now I know you are trolling 😂

[marinello59]

You were convincing until you mentioned Glasgow. Now I know you are trolling 😂

:greengrin

[marinello59]

I love Scotland too but I'm more convinced than ever that we should go for Independence as soon as we can.

So am I.
But outside of a few pockets in the central belt I don’t recognise a Scotland ravaged by hate filled sectarian unionism. And even there it’s a minority. The vast majority of us get along just fine no matter what our political views may be.

[H18 SFR]

I fear what an independent Scotland would look like.

I look at the USA just now, completely split politically and societally. I fear an independent Scotland would be and remain completely divided.

[Kato]

I fear what an independent Scotland would look like.

I look at the USA just now, completely split politically and societally. I fear an independent Scotland would be and remain completely divided.

Along what lines?

[Callum_62]

I fear what an independent Scotland would look like.

I look at the USA just now, completely split politically and societally. I fear an independent Scotland would be and remain completely divided.Imagine living in a country split politically

Armageddon I tell you

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200913/97014f2b9366f639aa2849d08baa3028.jpg

Societally it would be even worse civil disobedience than when Rangers were demoted....
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200913/a0c5c95f67761c62e475cc580a2f4fb5.jpg

[H18 SFR]

Imagine living in a country split politically

Armageddon I tell you

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200913/97014f2b9366f639aa2849d08baa3028.jpg

Societally it would be even worse civil disobedience than when Rangers were demoted....
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200913/a0c5c95f67761c62e475cc580a2f4fb5.jpg

Do you think an independent Scotland would be united?

Edit - cancel that, with hindsight I shouldn’t have contributed to the thread.

[Callum_62]

Do you think an independent Scotland would be united?

Edit - cancel that, with hindsight I shouldn’t have contributed to the thread.Based on the above 2 examples we would be more united than we are being lumped with the UK

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[James310]

Based on the above 2 examples we would be more united than we are being lumped with the UK

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Is it deliberate or unintentional that you posted a map of the GE 2019 seats won, where of course if a SNP MP got 1 more vote than their opponent it would show the map as yellow?

In the 2019 Genral Election there were about 46% of votes for parties that supported Independence while 54% were for parties against Independence So the poster is correct, Scotland is pretty much split.

[Callum_62]

Is it deliberate or unintentional that you posted a map of the GE 2019 seats won, where of course if a SNP MP got 1 more vote than their opponent it would show the map as yellow?

In the 2019 Genral Election there were about 46% of votes for parties that supported Independence while 54% were for parties against Independence So the poster is correct, Scotland is pretty much split.And on a huge constitution change like Brexit?

More united or less?

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[James310]

And on a huge constitution change like Brexit?

More united or less?

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You showed a map of the 2019 GE result. Got to admit it's a bit misleading?

Of course Scotland is far more aligned on Brexit. The numbers showed that. I would not disagree with that.

[Callum_62]

You showed a map of the 2019 GE result. Got to admit it's a bit misleading?

Of course Scotland is far more aligned on Brexit. The numbers showed that. I would not disagree with that.The point being we are also split politically being part of the UK

That isn't new and won't be some unheard of armageddon if we become an Independant nation

Ofcourse the other example shows we might be more united in other aspects of our decision making

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[The Modfather]

Is it deliberate or unintentional that you posted a map of the GE 2019 seats won, where of course if a SNP MP got 1 more vote than their opponent it would show the map as yellow?

In the 2019 Genral Election there were about 46% of votes for parties that supported Independence while 54% were for parties against Independence So the poster is correct, Scotland is pretty much split.

James, good to see you back posting again. Incase you weren’t aware this political forum also has a football sub forum (https://www.hibs.net/forumdisplay.php?2-hibs-net-Main-Forum). Non Hibs fans are welcome to chat all things football as well.

I know you’ve said previously you didn’t post on something like Hibs being bought by an American for fear of repeating something someone might have already said, but maybe bump into you there one day :scarf:

[James310]

James, good to see you back posting again. Incase you weren’t aware this political forum also has a football sub forum (https://www.hibs.net/forumdisplay.php?2-hibs-net-Main-Forum). Non Hibs fans are welcome to chat all things football as well.

I know you’ve said previously you didn’t post on something like Hibs being bought by an American for fear of repeating something someone might have already said, but maybe bump into you there one day :scarf:

Always one isn't there, probably done more the club than you have ever done. Season ticket holder, HSL member, donated to Dnipro Kids and recently donated to Kick for Kids (over and above the bet I lost on here), but you crack on with your cheap jibes.

Don't worry won't post again for a while.

[Bostonhibby]

I don't get to vote ‘up the road’ but having been convinced by the advantages of being part of the union previously due the quality and influence of Westminster I have now completely changed my view. The current ****show run by Russian compromised carpet baggers is utterly corrupt and Scotland is best served by having no more part of it.

Much of the quality in the New Labour government came from Scots MPs. Scots MPs of quality will have no influence in Westminster now and for the foreseeable future. Better they serve Scotland from Edinburgh.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/13/covid-crisis-changing-minds-scottish-independencePoints well made[emoji106]

Am not a traditional SNP supporter, have not, and should not have any "skin in the game" but the contrast in leadership and integrity of behaviour is now a chasm, there's probably more dubious Russian money in certain areas of London and linked with one political party in the UK than there is in Moscow!

Given the path the UK is currently being steered down maybe independence is just the best chance in the short term to find a way that isn't the distasteful path the current gang are taking the country down?

The prospect of making that break might even appeal to the undecideds or dare I say people who could could be swayed from the comfort zone of unionism if something less toxic than a Johnson led country and government was on offer?

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[The Modfather]

Always one isn't there, probably done more the club than you have ever done. Season ticket holder, HSL member, donated to Dnipro Kids and recently donated to Kick for Kids (over and above the bet I lost on here), but you crack on with your cheap jibes.

Don't worry won't post again for a while.

All very admirable, congratulations. Up to you what and when you post. For what it’s worth I admire your doggedness on things like independence, so have no problem with anyone posting from either side of the fence as long as it’s in a constructive manner. I just find it perplexing that a Hibs fan solely uses the political sub forum but doesn’t also post about his own team. Each to their own though and I’ll not de-rail this thread any further.

[Colr]

My homeboy coming to a similar conclusion.

North London is going SNP.


https://t.co/m3dHRpDYM3

[DaveF]

My homeboy coming to a similar conclusion.

North London is going SNP.


https://t.co/m3dHRpDYM3

Good to know but the article is 3 years old.

[Colr]

Good to know but the article is 3 years old.

Didn’t notice that. It popped up on twitter tonight. Amazing these bots!

[greenlex]

Good to know but the article is 3 years old. if he thought it was a ****show three years ago then God knows what He thinks now.:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Is it deliberate or unintentional that you posted a map of the GE 2019 seats won, where of course if a SNP MP got 1 more vote than their opponent it would show the map as yellow?

In the 2019 Genral Election there were about 46% of votes for parties that supported Independence while 54% were for parties against Independence So the poster is correct, Scotland is pretty much split.

The fault of the system not the electorate.

[JeMeSouviens]

Two interesting articles on English attitudes to Indy. Neal Ascherson in the LRB takes a broader view:

https://lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n18/neal-ascherson/bye-bye-britain


Philip Stephens in the FT focuses on Johnson's (and presumably Cummings') ambivalence, ie. they only want to "keep" Scotland on their own terms. Hence the domineering, confrontational approach to the internal market bill.



Boris Johnson’s Brexit plan will break the UK union
The insistence that England must decide what Scotland eats is a gift to the independence movement

PHILIP STEPHENS


Boris Johnson's readiness to tear up the UK's reputation for honest dealing by rewriting the EU withdrawal deal has grabbed the headlines. The news, though, is worse. Legislation to create a post-Brexit single market across England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland shows equal contempt for the UK's constitutional settlement. By asserting unassailable English supremacy, the prime minister is inviting Scotland to leave the union.*

There is a burgeoning school of thought, in Whitehall and Westminster as well as Edinburgh, that says Brexit has made Scottish independence inevitable. The sweep of history, the story runs, will conclude that the matter was settled as soon as England voted to leave the EU and Scotland to remain. The frayed bonds of the union were cut beyond repair.

There is something to be said for the long view. The Anglo-Scottish union of 1707 was a contingent agreement. Mr Johnson's remark this year that there is “no such thing” as a border between the two nations was a measure of indifference as well as ignorance. Scotland did not give up its border or its nationhood — nor its distinct legal and educational systems.*

The union was about collaboration abroad. Scotland secured access to the emerging British empire, and England to talented entrepreneurs, engineers and administrators. With empire long gone, Brexit has put an end to any notion of a joint enterprise beyond British shores.*Instead, Scotland is presented with a choice: if it sticks with England, it cuts itself off from Europe. The referendum vote to leave the EU was bad enough. The threat to defy international law on the way to a no-deal Brexit risks leaving Scotland isolated on the edge of its own continent.

Historical determinists point also to the sharp contrast in political culture and temperament revealed by Covid-19. The performance of the two nations in curbing the spread has not been that different; the styles have been miles apart. The cautious, open approach of Nicola Sturgeon's Scottish National party administration has sat alongside a strategy in Downing Street most kindly described as shambolic bluster.

At this point — with Ms Sturgeon demanding a rerun of the 2014 independence poll and the opinion polls showing a solidifying majority of Scots in favour of independence — a reliably pro-union government at Westminster would be declaring that nothing is preordained. England and Scotland have both been enriched by their partnership.*

History is written by human agency. Brexit, such a government would continue, can be the occasion for a new settlement between the four constituent parts of the union. Power reclaimed from Brussels will be distributed to every corner of the UK.

Mr Johnson has taken the opposite course. Publicly he declares himself a unionist; privately, Whitehall officials report, he is heard to scorn Scotland as “too leftwing” — spending money raised from English taxpayers on lavish welfare. The prejudice is reflected in the legislation now before parliament to create a UK single market.

Beyond the controversial clauses that would renege on provisions in the withdrawal agreement to keep an open border in Ireland, the essential purpose of the new law is to tighten England’s grip over the rest of the UK.*

Decisions over food and environment norms, labour law and industrial standards hitherto shared with Brussels will belong solely to Westminster. Powers over health and education held by the Scottish and Welsh parliaments and Northern Ireland assembly will be diluted. Westminster will decide whether to scrap the animal husbandry rules that presently bar imports of American chlorinated chicken.

Opinion: Can the government breach the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement?
A common set of rules is certainly needed to allow the UK market to operate freely. Yet there is no reason why the other nations of the union should be barred a say in negotiating trade deals and the setting of standards, or that UK-wide norms must exclude a measure of national discretion. But no, English MPs at Westminster will decide what Scotland eats.*

In truth, the legislation — as bluntly condemned by a pro-union government in Wales as by Ms Sturgeon — is a gift to Scottish nationalism, proof that centrist Scotland is now a prisoner of rightwing English Conservativism.

Mr Johnson’s response to criticism of this English-fits-all approach is to insist he will simply block independence. Even if, as the polls suggest, the Scottish Nationalists win a mandate in next year's Edinburgh elections, he will prevent a referendum. If that fails, there is a back-up plan. Scottish voters will again be told that their reliance on fiscal transfers from England mean they cannot afford independence.

Both approaches serve the nationalists: the first by legitimising the SNP charge that England is locking Scotland into a state of vassalage; the second by displaying a condescending contempt calculated to energise nationalists. Of course, independence would bring severe economic challenges. But if there was a lesson from the Brexit vote in 2016 it was that identity trumps economics.

Whatever the outcome of the present furore over lawbreaking, Brexit has also weakened the bonds between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain. The strains on the union, though, start with the balance between Westminster and Edinburgh. Break-up may not be preordained, but none looks so determined as Mr Johnson to force Scotland’s hand.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200917/4591be4c89f8418d92073531161ba9cb.jpg

They are getting very nervous in London. They do seem to to be conceding that indyref 2 will happen though.


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[Callum_62]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200917/4591be4c89f8418d92073531161ba9cb.jpg

They are getting very nervous in London. They do seem to to be conceding that indyref 2 will happen though.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWhere was the powerful argument in 2014 about all "Scots" being able to vote

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[lapsedhibee]

Where was the powerful argument in 2014 about all "Scots" being able to vote


Only the start. England will be affected by Scotland's vote so there's a powerful argument that all English people should be able to vote too. :rolleyes:

[lucky]

If the call for Scots who live in the rest of the U.K. to get a vote does the argument work in reverse? That only Scots in Scotland get the vote? When you reverse the argument it shows how absurd the argument that Riffkin is proposing. But then again this was the man who was in favour of the poll tax being tried out on Scotland first.

[Hibrandenburg]

If the call for Scots who live in the rest of the U.K. to get a vote does the argument work in reverse? That only Scots in Scotland get the vote? When you reverse the argument it shows how absurd the argument that Riffkin is proposing. But then again this was the man who was in favour of the poll tax being tried out on Scotland first.

Good point and well explained.

[The Modfather]

I see Barbados are removing the Queen as head of state and becoming a republic. It’s not a day 1, or even day 2, issue so not all that relevant to the independence debate. However post independence it’s very much a question I’d like to see put to the country, although can’t see that it will be. I think it should though, an institution none of us have ever had any say in and if the clean slate of an independent Scotland isn’t the time to vote on the monarchy there won’t ever be a time to do it.

[RitchieHibs]

I see Barbados are removing the Queen as head of state and becoming a republic. It’s not a day 1, or even day 2, issue so not all that relevant to the independence debate. However post independence it’s very much a question I’d like to see put to the country, although can’t see that it will be. I think it should though, an institution none of us have ever had any say in and if the clean slate of an independent Scotland isn’t the time to vote on the monarchy there won’t ever be a time to do it.

Good post. Indy Scotland will probably go the same way as Barbados and rightly so imo.

[RitchieHibs]

I see Barbados are removing the Queen as head of state and becoming a republic. It’s not a day 1, or even day 2, issue so not all that relevant to the independence debate. However post independence it’s very much a question I’d like to see put to the country, although can’t see that it will be. I think it should though, an institution none of us have ever had any say in and if the clean slate of an independent Scotland isn’t the time to vote on the monarchy there won’t ever be a time to do it.

I'd want to free ourselves from virtually everything in Indy Scotland. The opportunities would be off the scale. New Scottish generated and owned supermarkets, wholesalers, producers, textiles, manufacturing, etc etc etc. A Scotland that runs its own finances and sets its own direction of travel free from hedge funds and oligarch billionaires. It can be done. We just need to say YES.

[Smartie]

I'd want to free ourselves from virtually everything in Indy Scotland. The opportunities would be off the scale. New Scottish generated and owned supermarkets, wholesalers, producers, textiles, manufacturing, etc etc etc. A Scotland that runs its own finances and sets its own direction of travel free from hedge funds and oligarch billionaires. It can be done. We just need to say YES.

I also favour independence but it would be fair to say that my independent Scotland would look very different to yours.

I mean - what I'd like would be for Scotland's ample resource to be used better for the benefit of the people of Scotland (rather than to prop up a hopeless wider UK economy that is skewed way to far towards financial services, the South East of England and the already super-rich), but I'd only want a Scottish supermarket to thrive if it could prove itself to be better than Aldi, Tesco or ASDA. Something I'd like to see, don't get me wrong, but it would have to be earned, otherwise we're going back in time.

A royalist I am not, but I've almost made peace with the current queen, the current lot, and the role they appear to play. It's an uneasy peace though and it would be a huge surprise to me if I didn't want them all round up and shot pretty early in the reign of King Charles.

[RitchieHibs]

I also favour independence but it would be fair to say that my independent Scotland would look very different to yours.

I mean - what I'd like would be for Scotland's ample resource to be used better for the benefit of the people of Scotland (rather than to prop up a hopeless wider UK economy that is skewed way to far towards financial services, the South East of England and the already super-rich), but I'd only want a Scottish supermarket to thrive if it could prove itself to be better than Aldi, Tesco or ASDA. Something I'd like to see, don't get me wrong, but it would have to be earned, otherwise we're going back in time.

Of course Scottish supermarkets would thrive. We have amazing produce on our doorstep and of course we'd still import as well as export. The great thing about Indy Scotland is that we will be enabled to afford home grown entrepreneurs to emerge and compete and pay into a Scotland full of potential.

[Beefster]

I'd want to free ourselves from virtually everything in Indy Scotland. The opportunities would be off the scale. New Scottish generated and owned supermarkets, wholesalers, producers, textiles, manufacturing, etc etc etc. A Scotland that runs its own finances and sets its own direction of travel free from hedge funds and oligarch billionaires. It can be done. We just need to say YES.

Why is stuff like ‘Scottish-owned’ supermarkets important? What are the barriers within the UK to a Scottish supermarket being a roaring success?

Are you looking for Scottish alternatives to the likes of Apple and Google too?

[marinello59]

Why is stuff like ‘Scottish-owned’ supermarkets important? What are the barriers within the UK to a Scottish supermarket being a roaring success?

Are you looking for Scottish alternatives to the likes of Apple and Google too?

Where’s your ambition? I aim to have Make Scotland Great Again Tam O’ Shanters on sale soon. :greengrin

[RitchieHibs]

Why is stuff like ‘Scottish-owned’ supermarkets important? What are the barriers within the UK to a Scottish supermarket being a roaring success?

Are you looking for Scottish alternatives to the likes of Apple and Google too?

It was simply an example of the potential Indy Scotland presents. The opportunities that Indy Scotland offers is enormous. It also allows us to shape the Scotland we want. A Scotland that works for its millions of folk not for the oligarch millionaires and billionaires.

[One Day Soon]

It was simply an example of the potential Indy Scotland presents. The opportunities that Indy Scotland offers is enormous. It also allows us to shape the Scotland we want. A Scotland that works for its millions of folk not for the oligarch millionaires and billionaires.


How would that work? Are you talking about a state-owned supermarket or a private sector competitor to the existing big chains?

I'm not sure I can see why such a supermarket would be any more likely to fail or succeed under either the status quo or independence. As such it seems a poor example.

[Smartie]

It was simply an example of the potential Indy Scotland presents. The opportunities that Indy Scotland offers is enormous. It also allows us to shape the Scotland we want. A Scotland that works for its millions of folk not for the oligarch millionaires and billionaires.

When arguing the case of independence I think we need to be realistic about what being ruled from Westminster actually stops us from doing. We're not going to win the hearts and minds of the softer end of the opposition if it appears that we're deluding ourselves.

Your final sentence sounds nice, but asking Scots to give up their I-phones and never to buy from amazon is a big ask, and making very rich people even richer is an unfortunate side effect of that. I don't know what exactly the answer is but like you I am concerned about the trend.

But at the end of the day do we want to protect Scottish business owners or do we want the pound in the average Scottish punter's pocket to go as far as possible? Any sort of protectionism doesn't work, which is what a few notable leaders will find out in due course.

The last thing I'd ever want an independent Scotland to be would be a twee, tartan clad version of what the USA and England seem desperate to turn themselves into.

[Moulin Yarns]

How would that work? Are you talking about a state-owned supermarket or a private sector competitor to the existing big chains?

I'm not sure I can see why such a supermarket would be any more likely to fail or succeed under either the status quo or independence. As such it seems a poor example.

I just want William Low back on the high Street 😁

[RitchieHibs]

How would that work? Are you talking about a state-owned supermarket or a private sector competitor to the existing big chains?

I'm not sure I can see why such a supermarket would be any more likely to fail or succeed under either the status quo or independence. As such it seems a poor example.

It might seem a poor example to you but not to me. Indy Scotland will of course ferment change. The vast majority of it will be extremely positive and I'm sure we'd all hope that it will offer superb opportunity for Scottish based entrepreneurs of all shapes and sizes across the spectrum to grow while ensuring those companies that do remain pay their fair share to Holyrood.

[One Day Soon]

When arguing the case of independence I think we need to be realistic about what being ruled from Westminster actually stops us from doing. We're not going to win the hearts and minds of the softer end of the opposition if it appears that we're deluding ourselves.

Your final sentence sounds nice, but asking Scots to give up their I-phones and never to buy from amazon is a big ask, and making very rich people even richer is an unfortunate side effect of that. I don't know what exactly the answer is but like you I am concerned about the trend.

But at the end of the day do we want to protect Scottish business owners or do we want the pound in the average Scottish punter's pocket to go as far as possible? Any sort of protectionism doesn't work, which is what a few notable leaders will find out in due course.

The last thing I'd ever want an independent Scotland to be would be a twee, tartan clad version of what the USA and England seem desperate to turn themselves into.


I am still waiting for persuasive answers on, among other things, the currency of an independent Scotland, closing the very large deficit, getting from day one to a credible central bank with currency reserves and why removing ourselves from our largest export market - rUK - makes good sense. Never mind the case for the union as is or preferably re-imagined and fit for this century. In truth I think that both sides in this debate are trying to win the argument with inferior products because they both struggle to give credible answers to important questions.

For what it's worth I don't think there is going to be another referendum this side of another UK general election and while the country is essentially split 50-50 both sides have a hell of a lot of work to do to get us to a position where we can get an outcome of an absolute minimum of 60% to 40% either way. And I say that because I think another referendum resulting in a win of eg 55% to 45% for No just leaves the question open and a win of 55% to 45% for Yes leaves us independent but badly divided and with politics even more poisonous than at present.

We HAVE to get away from this constitutional crap sooner rather than later, it is a complete distraction from being able to address the issues we face. We are neither embracing devolution and its powers fully nor acquiring all the responsibilities of an independent state and cracking on with that.

It would help if Scottish public opinion would settle decisively on one outcome. It won't though.

[One Day Soon]

It might seem a poor example to you but not to me. Indy Scotland will of course ferment change. The vast majority of it will be extremely positive and I'm sure we'd all hope that it will offer superb opportunity for Scottish based entrepreneurs of all shapes and sizes across the spectrum to grow while ensuring those companies that do remain pay their fair share to Holyrood.

What difference precisely would independence make to the possibility and prospects of a new Scottish supermarket?

[JeMeSouviens]

What difference precisely would independence make to the possibility and prospects of a new Scottish supermarket?

Fermented change. We'd literally use beer as our new currency. Accepted in all good (Scottish) supermarkets. :wink:

[One Day Soon]

Fermented change. We'd literally use beer as our new currency. Accepted in all good (Scottish) supermarkets. :wink:

Seems plausible, there's certainly barrels of pi5h talked on the subject...:wink:

[Ozyhibby]

What difference precisely would independence make to the possibility and prospects of a new Scottish supermarket?

It won’t. We’ll still have Tesco, Morrison’s, Amazon and Starbucks. We might tax them differently but we’ll still have them. Any Scottish business will have to compete with them. What might happen is we tax them in a way that doesn’t disadvantage local business and that may help a local business compete better. That might involve taxing them less but taxing all business the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[One Day Soon]

It won’t. We’ll still have Tesco, Morrison’s, Amazon and Starbucks. We might tax them differently but we’ll still have them. Any Scottish business will have to compete with them. What might happen is we tax them in a way that doesn’t disadvantage local business and that may help a local business compete better. That might involve taxing them less but taxing all business the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup. Whatever else might be a case for independence the prospect of newly emerging Scottish supermarkets isn't one of them.

[RitchieHibs]

What difference precisely would independence make to the possibility and prospects of a new Scottish supermarket?

You seem spooked at the thought of Scotland becoming a country of sustained growth and new opportunity development. I'd love to see newly formed Scottish based and branded companies of all sizes form, develop and grow across the spectrum in Indy Scotland. Wouldn't you?

[Ozyhibby]

You seem spooked at the thought of Scotland becoming a country of sustained growth and new opportunity development. I'd love to see newly formed Scottish based and branded companies form, develop and grow across the spectrum in Indy Scotland.

That can happen now though. That’s not really one of the advantages of independence.


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[RitchieHibs]

That can happen now though. That’s not really one of the advantages of independence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not anywhere close to the same extent as Indy Scotland will offer up. How we develop and nurture growth and development particularly from Scottish based companies will be of huge advantage to Scotland among many other benefits that Indy will bring.

I'll leave it there.

[Smartie]

I am still waiting for persuasive answers on, among other things, the currency of an independent Scotland, closing the very large deficit, getting from day one to a credible central bank with currency reserves and why removing ourselves from our largest export market - rUK - makes good sense. Never mind the case for the union as is or preferably re-imagined and fit for this century. In truth I think that both sides in this debate are trying to win the argument with inferior products because they both struggle to give credible answers to important questions.

For what it's worth I don't think there is going to be another referendum this side of another UK general election and while the country is essentially split 50-50 both sides have a hell of a lot of work to do to get us to a position where we can get an outcome of an absolute minimum of 60% to 40% either way. And I say that because I think another referendum resulting in a win of eg 55% to 45% for No just leaves the question open and a win of 55% to 45% for Yes leaves us independent but badly divided and with politics even more poisonous than at present.

We HAVE to get away from this constitutional crap sooner rather than later, it is a complete distraction from being able to address the issues we face. We are neither embracing devolution and its powers fully nor acquiring all the responsibilities of an independent state and cracking on with that.

It would help if Scottish public opinion would settle decisively on one outcome. It won't though.

Whilst we'd put picks in different boxes in the event of a referendum I don't necessarily disagree with a word of this.

I don't consider my position to be fixed on the subject but it would be events outside of Scotland that would make me change my mind rather than anything happening here. England would need to get over their love affair with the Tory party and stop choosing governments as awful as this one was always going to be. Then need to somehow wrest control back from the looney fringe who hold the reins there.

I share your concerns about the unanswered questions of an independent Scotland, but I REALLY don't fancy the uncertainty of what the future holds post-Brexit with the BNP in suits in charge, and I don't see a time that the much bigger country next door is ever going to want something other than that (or maybe something nastier). I'm not so mad on the stability of great British pounds when they are being handed over in their millions/ billions to Tory buddies in PPE contracts etc etc etc.

Whether or not you're happy with the "mystery box" depends on how happy you are with your lot as it stands. I'm deeply concerned about the future holds for Scotland as part of the Union and as a result I'm probably more likely to want to take a punt on a gamble than you are, as I don't fancy the odds on the status quo much at all.

[marinello59]

I just want William Low back on the high Street 😁

They haven’t been welcome on the high street in Aberdeen since 1964. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

Whilst we'd put picks in different boxes in the event of a referendum I don't necessarily disagree with a word of this.

I don't consider my position to be fixed on the subject but it would be events outside of Scotland that would make me change my mind rather than anything happening here. England would need to get over their love affair with the Tory party and stop choosing governments as awful as this one was always going to be. Then need to somehow wrest control back from the looney fringe who hold the reins there.

I share your concerns about the unanswered questions of an independent Scotland, but I REALLY don't fancy the uncertainty of what the future holds post-Brexit with the BNP in suits in charge, and I don't see a time that the much bigger country next door is ever going to want something other than that (or maybe something nastier). I'm not so mad on the stability of great British pounds when they are being handed over in their millions/ billions to Tory buddies in PPE contracts etc etc etc.

Whether or not you're happy with the "mystery box" depends on how happy you are with your lot as it stands. I'm deeply concerned about the future holds for Scotland as part of the Union and as a result I'm probably more likely to want to take a punt on a gamble than you are, as I don't fancy the odds on the status quo much at all.

I think that is a reason Yes is pulling so far ahead just now. The status quo looks very scary indeed. The UK is going in a direction that worries me a lot and I don’t see anything to make me think that they are going to change direction. We can’t do anything about it either as our voting block is so small compared to England. The better option is to go our own way.


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[lapsedhibee]

They haven’t been welcome on the high street in Aberdeen since 1964. :greengrin

That was The Argies' fault. Willie Low was just an innocent vector.

[One Day Soon]

That was The Argies' fault. Willie Low was just an innocent vector.

TESCO are Argies?

[lapsedhibee]

TESCO are Argies?

Tesco was 1994. M59 was talking about 1964, and the reason for the Summer Cup Final being delayed that year.

Edit: full story here with Hibs pics (https://www.afc.co.uk/2020/03/21/1964-summer-football-and-a-local-epidemic/)

[Bristolhibby]

I also favour independence but it would be fair to say that my independent Scotland would look very different to yours.

I mean - what I'd like would be for Scotland's ample resource to be used better for the benefit of the people of Scotland (rather than to prop up a hopeless wider UK economy that is skewed way to far towards financial services, the South East of England and the already super-rich), but I'd only want a Scottish supermarket to thrive if it could prove itself to be better than Aldi, Tesco or ASDA. Something I'd like to see, don't get me wrong, but it would have to be earned, otherwise we're going back in time.

A royalist I am not, but I've almost made peace with the current queen, the current lot, and the role they appear to play. It's an uneasy peace though and it would be a huge surprise to me if I didn't want them all round up and shot pretty early in the reign of King Charles.

But there would have to be some sort of Royal “severance” post Indy.

Can you imagine “Royal Assent” having to be given to our laws continuing?

I mean, what’s the point? Parliament passes the laws, they become law. No need to involve the Queen.

But as has been said, fight one battle at a time. Keep the Queen and let Scottish citizens decide in future.

J

[cabbageandribs1875]

I see Barbados are removing the Queen as head of state and becoming a republic. It’s not a day 1, or even day 2, issue so not all that relevant to the independence debate. However post independence it’s very much a question I’d like to see put to the country, although can’t see that it will be. I think it should though, an institution none of us have ever had any say in and if the clean slate of an independent Scotland isn’t the time to vote on the monarchy there won’t ever be a time to do it.


sure i read that a referendum on the protector of the royal pervert would take place after independence, i also remember salmond pre 2014 saying they would be kept, we really are a progressive thinking political party now, no need for royalty in the 21st century, or even the century before.

[Bristolhibby]

sure i read that a referendum on the protector of the royal pervert would take place after independence, i also remember salmond pre 2014 saying they would be kept, we really are a progressive thinking political party now, no need for royalty in the 21st century, or even the century before.

One fight at a time. Indy first, debate about the Royalty after that.

IIRC there’s still a strong approval for the Queen personally in Scotland. Don’t want to put off soft Yesses when the Queen could be the tipping point.

Once Indy is achieved I’ll be the first to campaign for Republicanism.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

They haven’t been welcome on the high street in Aberdeen since 1964. :greengrin

I can't remember when they were bought over but it must have been in the 70's or early 80s.

Sad man that I am I've just checked, 2nd September 1994, bought by tesco.

[Mibbes Aye]

It won’t. We’ll still have Tesco, Morrison’s, Amazon and Starbucks. We might tax them differently but we’ll still have them. Any Scottish business will have to compete with them. What might happen is we tax them in a way that doesn’t disadvantage local business and that may help a local business compete better. That might involve taxing them less but taxing all business the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

With regard to your last sentence, if an independent Scotland was a member of the EU, would that even be legal?

[RitchieHibs]

With regard to your last sentence, if an independent Scotland was a member of the EU, would that even be legal?

There's always ways around matters. Would we really want a Starbucks selling drinks that are stuffed full of sugar? Diabetes is already a major health crisis. We'll be able to tackle these very serious issues head on post independence.

[Mibbes Aye]

There's always ways around matters. Would we really want a Starbucks selling drinks that are stuffed full of sugar? Diabetes is already a major health crisis. We'll be able to tackle these very serious issues head on post independence.

So, one of the big arguments being put forward by Nationalists is this prospect that Scotland would rejoin the EU (though bearing in mind a large number of Scots and a surprisingly large number of SNP voters wanted to leave....but anyway)

Would tax breaks for ‘Scottish’ businesses be legal in the EU? Or would that be seen as state aid,and therefore prohibited. Not sure there is a way around that matter.

[Ozyhibby]

With regard to your last sentence, if an independent Scotland was a member of the EU, would that even be legal?

Member states can still set their own business tax rates?


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[Ozyhibby]

So, one of the big arguments being put forward by Nationalists is this prospect that Scotland would rejoin the EU (though bearing in mind a large number of Scots and a surprisingly large number of SNP voters wanted to leave....but anyway)

Would tax breaks for ‘Scottish’ businesses be legal in the EU? Or would that be seen as state aid,and therefore prohibited. Not sure there is a way around that matter.

There is no way Scottish business’s can be given preferential tax rates. Nor should they.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Member states can still set their own business tax rates?


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There is no way Scottish business’s can be given preferential tax rates. Nor should they.


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Yeah, cross purposes and probably clumsy wording on my part. Your second answer was the point I was trying to get across.

[RitchieHibs]

So, one of the big arguments being put forward by Nationalists is this prospect that Scotland would rejoin the EU (though bearing in mind a large number of Scots and a surprisingly large number of SNP voters wanted to leave....but anyway)

Would tax breaks for ‘Scottish’ businesses be legal in the EU? Or would that be seen as state aid,and therefore prohibited. Not sure there is a way around that matter.

Of course we'll rejoin the EU. Again, of course we'll adhere to the rules laid down. However, most certainly we'd examine ways in which to aid Scottish business/commerce/industry within the laid out parameters. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Most countries within the EU want what best serves their indigenous local economy. Don't see why Scotland would be any different?

[Bristolhibby]

So, one of the big arguments being put forward by Nationalists is this prospect that Scotland would rejoin the EU (though bearing in mind a large number of Scots and a surprisingly large number of SNP voters wanted to leave....but anyway)

Would tax breaks for ‘Scottish’ businesses be legal in the EU? Or would that be seen as state aid,and therefore prohibited. Not sure there is a way around that matter.

How do they work in Ireland? I think it would have to be tax breaks all round. Or maybe tax a non EU domiciled company more? Is specific sectors maybe.

J

[Ozyhibby]

How do they work in Ireland? I think it would have to be tax breaks all round. Or maybe tax a non EU domiciled company more? Is specific sectors maybe.

J

Totally against any of that. We need to make Scotland as welcome for business (wherever it’s from) as we do for people.
Ireland set a business tax rate of 12.5% and seem to be thriving. Companies from all over the world set up there and provide lots of jobs.


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[Beefster]

You seem spooked at the thought of Scotland becoming a country of sustained growth and new opportunity development. I'd love to see newly formed Scottish based and branded companies of all sizes form, develop and grow across the spectrum in Indy Scotland. Wouldn't you?

I’d love to see it too but I’m not sure you’ve even come close to answering my original questions and describing how all these wonderful new businesses are blocked in the UK. It’s all very well throwing about airy-fairy phrases like ‘new opportunity development’ but you really need to be able to sensibly articulate why that doesn’t happen now and what’ll change to enable it.

As someone else alluded to, it’s that type of ‘panacea’ stuff that turns a number of potential supporters off.

[Bristolhibby]

Totally against any of that. We need to make Scotland as welcome for business (wherever it’s from) as we do for people.
Ireland set a business tax rate of 12.5% and seem to be thriving. Companies from all over the world set up there and provide lots of jobs.


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Oh I agree. I was just replying to Mibbies Aye.

J

[RitchieHibs]

Totally against any of that. We need to make Scotland as welcome for business (wherever it’s from) as we do for people.
Ireland set a business tax rate of 12.5% and seem to be thriving. Companies from all over the world set up there and provide lots of jobs.


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Definitely not why I've joined the Indy movement. I want a new Scotland that sets its face against naked capitalism. One that works for its millions of folk not for the shysters, low paymasters and oligarchs. Starbucks can do one for a start unless it significantly decreases its sugar output. We need to build a new Scotland. Decent housing for all, decent benefits, build up local economies using local folk within their communities.

[Bristolhibby]

I’d love to see it too but I’m not sure you’ve even come close to answering my original questions and describing how all these wonderful new businesses are blocked in the UK. It’s all very well throwing about airy-fairy phrases like ‘new opportunity development’ but you really need to be able to sensibly articulate why that doesn’t happen now and what’ll change to enable it.

As someone else alluded to, it’s that type of ‘panacea’ stuff that turns a number of potential supporters off.

I think deciding where State investment goes. For example making prosperity zones and tax breaks for inward investment. Things that may require Capital investment and borrowing. Basically the things most normal countries do to encourage investment of their choosing. Not the choosing of Westminster if at all.

J

[RitchieHibs]

I think deciding where State investment goes. For example making prosperity zones and tax breaks for inward investment. Things that may require Capital investment and borrowing. Basically the things most normal countries do to encourage investment of their choosing. Not the choosing of Westminster if at all.

J

Exactly. We need to build Scotland up from within firstly. Significant inward investment would create local jobs for local folk, creating tax revenue etc. also provide grants to Scottish entrepreneurs, start up businesses, etc. etc. Scotland has a wealth of resources, a talented workforce and a good international reputation. We don't need to rely on the usual suspects.

[McD]

Exactly. We need to build Scotland up from within firstly. Significant inward investment would create local jobs for local folk, creating tax revenue etc. also provide grants to Scottish entrepreneurs, start up businesses, etc. etc. Scotland has a wealth of resources, a talented workforce and a good international reputation. We don't need to rely on the usual suspects.


Does working for the Starbucks along the road or amazon not give local jobs to local folks?

you seem to be set against any kind of non Scottish companies operating in an independent Scotland. There’s very few countries in the world that don’t have many “foreign” companies operating there, and in a lot of those cases, they pay their way in the appropriate taxes (just as I’m sure there are domestic companies that work the tax loopholes too).

surely we should be welcoming companies that want to be a part of an independent Scotland, no?

I doubt many people will be overly bothered where a company is headquartered if they get their wages on time and can pay their bills.

[Ozyhibby]

Does working for the Starbucks along the road or amazon not give local jobs to local folks?

you seem to be set against any kind of non Scottish companies operating in an independent Scotland. There’s very few countries in the world that don’t have many “foreign” companies operating there, and in a lot of those cases, they pay their way in the appropriate taxes (just as I’m sure there are domestic companies that work the tax loopholes too).

surely we should be welcoming companies that want to be a part of an independent Scotland, no?

I doubt many people will be overly bothered where a company is headquartered if they get their wages on time and can pay their bills.

Not to mention the consumers who benefit from products brought to them at cheap prices. Amazon are very good at avoiding tax where they can but they are also very good at not giving any of the profits to the owners of the company. They invest it all back into improving their business for their customers.


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[RitchieHibs]

Does working for the Starbucks along the road or amazon not give local jobs to local folks?

you seem to be set against any kind of non Scottish companies operating in an independent Scotland. There’s very few countries in the world that don’t have many “foreign” companies operating there, and in a lot of those cases, they pay their way in the appropriate taxes (just as I’m sure there are domestic companies that work the tax loopholes too).

surely we should be welcoming companies that want to be a part of an independent Scotland, no?

I doubt many people will be overly bothered where a company is headquartered if they get their wages on time and can pay their bills.

Starbucks is a crap company selling vastly over-sugared products fueling the diabetes and health crisis we have. We can do far better than the likes of Starbucks or other crap fast food outlets for that matter that plague our towns and cities. Local folk should decide what type of high street they have. Not the oligarchs and quick buck shysters.

[Moulin Yarns]

Starbucks is a crap company selling vastly over-sugared products fueling the diabetes and health crisis we have. We can do far better than the likes of Starbucks or other crap fast food outlets for that matter that plague our towns and cities. Local folk should decide what type of high street they have. Not the oligarchs and quick buck shysters.

Which shops and cafes are on the high street is only the concern of the property owners and the businesses willing to pay the rent. Local authorities can zone areas for retail or food outlets but they cannot decide who occupies the property.

[Smartie]

Starbucks is a crap company selling vastly over-sugared products fueling the diabetes and health crisis we have. We can do far better than the likes of Starbucks or other crap fast food outlets for that matter that plague our towns and cities. Local folk should decide what type of high street they have. Not the oligarchs and quick buck shysters.

Hmmmm.

The Scottish diet and record on health in general isn't brilliant.

I think we need to take a bit of responsibility for it. We've not had Irn Bru forced on us by oligarchs and multinationals.

[RitchieHibs]

Hmmmm.

The Scottish diet and record on health in general isn't brilliant.

I think we need to take a bit of responsibility for it. We've not had Irn Bru forced on us by oligarchs and multinationals.

How would you know until we're actually allowed to take charge of our own affairs. We've never had to take responsibility. As I said, it should be up to local folk to decide which high street they want. Not conglomerates or oligarch hedge fund quick buck shysters who're happy to rot children's teeth or give them early onset diabetes.

[Ozyhibby]

How would you know until we're actually allowed to take charge of our own affairs. We've never had to take responsibility. As I said, it should be up to local folk to decide which high street they want. Not conglomerates or oligarch hedge fund quick buck shysters who're happy to rot children's teeth or give them early onset diabetes.

It is up to local people what shops they use.


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[RitchieHibs]

It is up to local people what shops they use.


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It is up to local people what shops they use

Bit robotic but I'll reply anyhow.

Are you a Robot ?

[Mibbes Aye]

.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=league+of+gentlemen+local+gif&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#imgrc=pUs_uagEDVo-rM

[Just Alf]

.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=league+of+gentlemen+local+gif&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#imgrc=pUs_uagEDVo-rM:greengrin

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[Beefster]

How would you know until we're actually allowed to take charge of our own affairs. We've never had to take responsibility. As I said, it should be up to local folk to decide which high street they want. Not conglomerates or oligarch hedge fund quick buck shysters who're happy to rot children's teeth or give them early onset diabetes.

What is it about being part of the UK that stops local folk deciding what high street they want and enables conglomerates and oligarch hedge fund quick buck shysters?

Incidentally, earlier you said ‘local jobs for local folk’. What does that mean and what’s the current situation - local jobs for remote folk? I’ll be honest, it sounds to me like you love trotting out a meaningless phrase or two that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

[Moulin Yarns]

How would you know until we're actually allowed to take charge of our own affairs. We've never had to take responsibility. As I said, it should be up to local folk to decide which high street they want. Not conglomerates or oligarch hedge fund quick buck shysters who're happy to rot children's teeth or give them early onset diabetes.

As I said, that's not how it works.

[RitchieHibs]

As I said, that's not how it works.

Currently granted. i was discussing post Independence. You must have known that.

[RitchieHibs]

What is it about being part of the UK that stops local folk deciding what high street they want and enables conglomerates and oligarch hedge fund quick buck shysters?

Incidentally, earlier you said ‘local jobs for local folk’. What does that mean and what’s the current situation - local jobs for remote folk? I’ll be honest, it sounds to me like you love trotting out a meaningless phrase or two that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

Once we take control back we can shape the Scotland that we want. Its not rocket science.

[Ozyhibby]

Currently granted. i was discussing post Independence. You must have known that.

It won’t work like that post independence either. I can’t think of any European independent country where there are no McDonalds, Starbucks etc.


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[stantonhibby]

Once we take control back we can shape the Scotland that we want. Its not rocket science.

Take control back......sounds familiar

[RitchieHibs]

It won’t work like that post independence either. I can’t think of any European independent country where there are no McDonalds, Starbucks etc.


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We'll see come post independence how it pans out. I will predict one thing for certain, there will be many positive changes afoot. Hopefully we can agree on that simple fact.

[Ozyhibby]

We'll see come post independence how it pans out. I will predict one thing for certain, there will be many positive changes afoot. Hopefully we can agree on that simple fact.

The benefits of independence are massive, I just don’t think the ones you mention are one of them.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Once we take control back we can shape the Scotland that we want. Its not rocket science.

Oh dear. Take back control is not the narrative that will win over undecided voters.

[RitchieHibs]

Take control back......sounds familiar

Could you explain what you're referring to? I'd be happy to reply if I knew what on earth you're talking about.

[Jack]

Once we take control back we can shape the Scotland that we want. Its not rocket science.

Can you point to any country in the world where this retail utopia exists?

Of course we'd all like to see Scottish companies of all sizes do well but to think there will be no, or few, multinationals is madness.

I think even Cuba now has Starbucks and McDonald's!

[RitchieHibs]

The benefits of independence are massive, I just don’t think the ones you mention are one of them.


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We'll see.

[lapsedhibee]

Could you explain what you're referring to? I'd be happy to reply if I knew what on earth you're talking about.
Lol.

[RitchieHibs]

Can you point to any country in the world where this retail utopia exists?

Of course we'd all like to see Scottish companies of all sizes do well but to think there will be no, or few, multinationals is madness.

I think even Cuba now has Starbucks and McDonald's!

That was mainly my point. However, I would also like to see the multinationals brought to task over their crap food that fuels the health crisis we have with diabetes, obesity and rotting teeth on the increase. I'm sure most rational folk would agree with that.

[Moulin Yarns]

That was mainly my point. However, I would also like to see the multinationals brought to task over their crap food that fuels the health crisis we have with diabetes, obesity and rotting teeth on the increase. I'm sure most rational folk would agree with that.

None of which requires independence.

[stantonhibby]

Could you explain what you're referring to? I'd be happy to reply if I knew what on earth you're talking about.

MY explains it succintly in the previous post. Pretty obvious tbh.

[Smartie]

That was mainly my point. However, I would also like to see the multinationals brought to task over their crap food that fuels the health crisis we have with diabetes, obesity and rotting teeth on the increase. I'm sure most rational folk would agree with that.

Yep, the sooner AG Barr, Tunnocks and Bayne’s the baker are sent packing back to where they came from, the better.

[RitchieHibs]

MY explains it succintly in the previous post. Pretty obvious tbh.

Not at all. We'll be starting from scratch come post Indy and we'll be able to make substantive positive change for the better, that's very obvious tbh. I was merely trying to debate it a bit that's all. But there seems to be an unwillingness to do so and a bit of hostility so I'm out.

[Beefster]

Once we take control back we can shape the Scotland that we want. Its not rocket science.

Your rhetoric is incredibly Brexit-campaign like. Taking back control, local jobs for local folk etc.

If you truly want independence, you might want to refine your argument. You’ve got ardent independence supporters arguing with you, never mind those of us who are lot less convinced.

[Jones28]

Not at all. We'll be starting from scratch come post Indy and we'll be able to make substantive positive change for the better, that's very obvious tbh. I was merely trying to debate it a bit that's all. But there seems to be an unwillingness to do so and a bit of hostility so I'm out.

The rhetoric you’re using makes it easy for the no voters to argue against it. I agree in principle that independent, Scottish businesses employing local people is a good thing, but there has got to be equilibrium. We will need big businesses to want to come here.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yep, the sooner AG Barr, Tunnocks and Bayne’s the baker are sent packing back to where they came from, the better.

😂 I was too busy to post the same thing. 👍

[Moulin Yarns]

Not at all. We'll be starting from scratch come post Indy and we'll be able to make substantive positive change for the better, that's very obvious tbh. I was merely trying to debate it a bit that's all. But there seems to be an unwillingness to do so and a bit of hostility so I'm out.

Surely starting from scratch is the worst possible scenario for an independent Scotland.

FWIW, I think I recognised the style of posts and think I have an idea of a former identity you had.

[marinello59]

Not at all. We'll be starting from scratch come post Indy and we'll be able to make substantive positive change for the better, that's very obvious tbh. I was merely trying to debate it a bit that's all. But there seems to be an unwillingness to do so and a bit of hostility so I'm out.

I don’t see anybody unwilling to engage in debate with you. I agree with you that more needs to be done regarding our diet and lifestyle, the Scottish Government have already made a start on that. I also agree that we should be looking at seeing more locally sourced produce in our stores. There is nothing to stop local entrepreneurs tapping in to that now. I’m certainly buying much more from independent shops since the pandemic started and plan to continue doing so.
None of that requires independence though having full control of tax and spend measures could see things enhanced but what you seem to be proposing doesn’t seem compatible with full EU membership. There are however a large number of Indy supporters who also supported Brexit, it may be their voices start to be heard more.

[McD]

Starbucks is a crap company selling vastly over-sugared products fueling the diabetes and health crisis we have. We can do far better than the likes of Starbucks or other crap fast food outlets for that matter that plague our towns and cities. Local folk should decide what type of high street they have. Not the oligarchs and quick buck shysters.



this post reads like something out of the 1950s, where every high street had a stand-alone Baker, butcher, greengrocer, etc. The world hasn’t looked like that for a long time.

what you’re describing sounds a lot like some kind of North Korean style of place, where people are dictated to about where they can shop etc.

not one company of those you’ve mentioned or others forces it’s way onto high streets or into shopping centres, they’re there because the vast majority of people want them there. Do you seriously think that after independence, Scottish people will suddenly shun these companies?

And Nothing you’re seeking Can’t be achieved whilst still part of the UK. As has been pointed out to you, people need to take responsibility for their own choices, can’t blame obesity or diabetes on Starbucks or McDonald’s or the Union.

[McD]

Surely starting from scratch is the worst possible scenario for an independent Scotland.

FWIW, I think I recognised the style of posts and think I have an idea of a former identity you had.


You’re not the only one MY

[Moulin Yarns]

this post reads like something out of the 1950s, where every high street had a stand-alone Baker, butcher, greengrocer, etc. The world hasn’t looked like that for a long time.

what you’re describing sounds a lot like some kind of North Korean style of place, where people are dictated to about where they can shop etc.

not one company of those you’ve mentioned or others forces it’s way onto high streets or into shopping centres, they’re there because the vast majority of people want them there. Do you seriously think that after independence, Scottish people will suddenly shun these companies?

And Nothing you’re seeking Can’t be achieved whilst still part of the UK. As has been pointed out to you, people need to take responsibility for their own choices, can’t blame obesity or diabetes on Starbucks or McDonald’s or the Union.

I can blame the union for being overweight. The union of beer and snacks.

[RitchieHibs]

I don’t see anybody unwilling to engage in debate with you. I agree with you that more needs to be done regarding our diet and lifestyle, the Scottish Government have already made a start on that. I also agree that we should be looking at seeing more locally sourced produce in our stores. There is nothing to stop local entrepreneurs tapping in to that now. I’m certainly buying much more from independent shops since the pandemic started and plan to continue doing so.
None of that requires independence though having full control of tax and spend measures could see things enhanced but what you seem to be proposing doesn’t seem compatible with full EU membership. There are however a large number of Indy supporters who also supported Brexit, it may be their voices start to be heard more.

Good post. Intelligent and agreeable.

[Hibrandenburg]

Surely starting from scratch is the worst possible scenario for an independent Scotland.

FWIW, I think I recognised the style of posts and think I have an idea of a former identity you had.

:agree: Think their original intention might have backfired a bit. C'mon the Scottish Democratic Republic.

[One Day Soon]

Surely starting from scratch is the worst possible scenario for an independent Scotland.

FWIW, I think I recognised the style of posts and think I have an idea of a former identity you had.


I absolutely had that feeling, I just can't recall what the previous poster incarnation was. Oh wait, I think I can now...

[Bristolhibby]

Starmer weaselling out of answering Labours position on supporting an Indy referendum if pro Indy Parties win a majority in Holyrood.

J

[Colr]

Starmer weaselling out of answering Labours position on supporting an Indy referendum if pro Indy Parties win a majority in Holyrood.

J

You wouldn’t expect him to answer a question like that at this time. The SNP are benefitting from the worst Tory government in modern history but he wants some of that too.

[Pretty Boy]

Starmer weaselling out of answering Labours position on supporting an Indy referendum if pro Indy Parties win a majority in Holyrood.

J

I thought his position was quite clear albeit I don't agree with it.

I was a bit disconcerted to see Marr giving Starmer a far harder time that he did an actual government minister. I accept he could just have felt sorry for Hancock who was once again shown to be so far out of his depth that it's embarrassing.

[hibsbollah]

I thought his position was quite clear albeit I don't agree with it.

I was a bit disconcerted to see Marr giving Starmer a far harder time that he did an actual government minister. I accept he could just have felt sorry for Hancock who was once again shown to be so far out of his depth that it's embarrassing.

Did I hear Hancock correctly there that there are 1 million people trying to get tests nationally and 200,000 tests provided? Are those stats correct?

[Colr]

I thought his position was quite clear albeit I don't agree with it.

I was a bit disconcerted to see Marr giving Starmer a far harder time that he did an actual government minister. I accept he could just have felt sorry for Hancock who was once again shown to be so far out of his depth that it's embarrassing.

Andrew Marr continually interrupts. That’s fine if they’re not answering the question but often he cuts off the answer before its out. Hancock wasn’t having it and neither was Kier after the first couple but last week Rachel Reeves hardly got a word out before he cut her off. He does this more to women and those like Rachel should be pre-briefed not to put up with his bullying and to tell him to let them answer. If they did it would reflect worse on him.

[lapsedhibee]

Did I hear Hancock correctly there that there are 1 million people trying to get tests nationally and 200,000 tests provided? Are those stats correct?

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1307633048910024704

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1307633048910024704

The Tory guy on Question Time said similar on Thursday. After being pulled up about it he murmured something about capacity despite saying it people being tested initially. Not pulled up about it. They get a very easy ride on BBC and seem to refuse to go on ITV these days.

It's easy to say all politicians lie, as they do. However most politicians lie occasionally. This lot tell the truth occasionally.

[hibsbollah]

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1307633048910024704

So it’s this thing he has with quoting capacity stats not actual tests carried out.
In some ways it’s irrelevant. It’s just smoke and mirrors. Democracy in any understandable sense is on its last legs.

[lapsedhibee]

The Tory guy on Question Time said similar on Thursday.

That's not just any Tory guy. That's Nadim Zahawi who, if things don't go well for Francois, will probably replace him in the Tories' two-pronged attempt (along with Bridgen) to make Patel and Truss seem reasonably intelligent.

[Kato]

That's not just any Tory guy. That's Nadim Zahawi who, if things don't go well for Francois, will probably replace him in the Tories' two-pronged attempt (along with Bridgen) to make Patel and Truss seem reasonably intelligent.


Tory guy. :aok:

They also had Labour Bloke, Hesitant Academic, Aghast Liberal Author and Cocaine-Addict-Knowitall-Top-Earning-Business-Brexit Geezer on.

[hibsbollah]

That's not just any Tory guy. That's Nadim Zahawi who, if things don't go well for Francois, will probably replace him in the Tories' two-pronged attempt (along with Bridgen) to make Patel and Truss seem reasonably intelligent.

yeah, Zahawi takes the stupid hat. He’s the absolute worst.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-54204967?__twitter_impression=true

Uk govt want to lower our building standards.


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[Ozyhibby]

As bad as this govt is, England just isn’t interested in going any other way. And it’s England who choose our govt for us.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200922/fe0374a962852b8607849ffbf0663254.jpg


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[JeMeSouviens]

As bad as this govt is, England just isn’t interested in going any other way. And it’s England who choose our govt for us.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200922/fe0374a962852b8607849ffbf0663254.jpg


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The Labs/Libs/Greens need to have a one off electoral pact and stand aside for one another so they can introduce PR.

[neil7908]

The Labs/Libs/Greens need to have a one off electoral pact and stand aside for one another so they can introduce PR.

And that's why although Brexit will hurt the country, it was a master stroke by the right. Its united all behind one party and completely stamped out UKIP and any other challenges from that side of the spectrum.

On the left you have 3 parties that total 50% of the vote but would have nothing to show if an election was held tomorrow.

[One Day Soon]

As bad as this govt is, England just isn’t interested in going any other way. And it’s England who choose our govt for us.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200922/fe0374a962852b8607849ffbf0663254.jpg


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We've only done the easy part so far. I suspect the polls - for both governments - will look very different at the far end of Winter after months of no furlough money, high unemployment, cold days and dark nights, protracted restricted new normal, mortgage and credit card payment holidays gone and the approaching January Brexit. Let's see.

[WeeRussell]

I absolutely had that feeling, I just can't recall what the previous poster incarnation was. Oh wait, I think I can now...

Wait.... that radge from Fife?! :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

Keir Starmer accepts that an SNP win at Holyrood next year is a mandate for indyref2:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1308811388849188871?s=20

Cue much spewing from Ian Murray and Jackie Baillie. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Keir Starmer accepts that an SNP win at Holyrood next year is a mandate for indyref2:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1308811388849188871?s=20

Cue much spewing from Ian Murray and Jackie Baillie. :wink:

Rigby skewered him there. Plenty of squirming by Sir Keir.

We've finally got his answer though, and if he loses the 2021 election, Indyref2 here we come.

[cabbageandribs1875]

pleasing.....and nice pic with her hibs gear on

23996

[degenerated]

Keir Starmer accepts that an SNP win at Holyrood next year is a mandate for indyref2:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1308811388849188871?s=20

Cue much spewing from Ian Murray and Jackie Baillie. :wink:Why does it have to be a majority, in a system designed to stop that, when the greens support indepence as well?



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[Callum_62]

Why does it have to be a majority, in a system designed to stop that, when the greens support indepence as well?



Sent from my SM-G977B using TapatalkI think it was Ruth that started that as they thought it was a near impossibility again

It seems to have morphed into what is needed as a minimum to even have the possibility to have a referendum

Pretty ridiculous actually

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[Glory Lurker]

pleasing.....and nice pic with her hibs gear on

23996

Where is this polling reported?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Where is this polling reported?


i googled presswatch after seeing it on fb

[Glory Lurker]

i googled presswatch after seeing it on fb

I can’t find it anywhere:boo hoo: Could you link to it?

[cabbageandribs1875]

I can’t find it anywhere:boo hoo: Could you link to it?


sorry can't do links on my mobile, it's 3rd and 4th down on google search :dunno:

[Hiber-nation]

sorry can't do links on my mobile, it's 3rd and 4th down on google search :dunno:

https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2020/09/22/snp-hits-60-support-in-latest-poll/

Only a sub poll but still good news.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2020/09/22/snp-hits-60-support-in-latest-poll/

Only a sub poll but still good news.

It’s a sample of about 85 people! The margin of error will be massive. File under not worth reporting.

[Hiber-nation]

It’s a sample of about 85 people! The margin of error will be massive. File under not worth reporting.

Is that all?!? I didn't read the small print 😂

[Ozyhibby]

Pretty sure a poll needs a 1000 people before it can be considered seriously.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Pretty sure a poll needs a 1000 people before it can be considered seriously.


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This was a UK poll of 1000 people. They’ve reported the tiny subsample of Scottish voters within that.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Is that all?!? I didn't read the small print 😂


i asked the guy on fb to check in future :greengrin but at least i started checking most articles for the date they were printed :(

[JeMeSouviens]

This caught my eye - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54285497

Ignoring anything our knob-cheese-for-brains PM says, does anyone have a feel for how much economic benefit renewables could ultimately provide in Scotland? I read somewhere that Scotland has 25% of Europe's renewables potential. Is this a potential game changer for an iScotland finding its feet or just an interesting sidenote?

RyeSloan? Anyone?

[Moulin Yarns]

This caught my eye - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54285497

Ignoring anything our knob-cheese-for-brains PM says, does anyone have a feel for how much economic benefit renewables could ultimately provide in Scotland? I read somewhere that Scotland has 25% of Europe's renewables potential. Is this a potential game changer for an iScotland finding its feet or just an interesting sidenote?

RyeSloan? Anyone?

If I remember correctly, the SG commissioned a report into how tech innovation would be important for an iScotland and I said that a similar approach to energy innovation would be useful.

No idea if it is planned or not, but I think it should be. Energy generation and storage will be very important in the future, and Scotland could be a leader in low carbon energy. Onshore and offshore wind are the ones people think of as the most important but small scale domestic wind, solar and hydro are all possible but not being used in any number at the moment.

[Callum_62]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/michael-gove-says-scottish-independence-worse-worst-case-brexit-scenarios-2981653

How could you not believe him.

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[JeMeSouviens]

If I remember correctly, the SG commissioned a report into how tech innovation would be important for an iScotland and I said that a similar approach to energy innovation would be useful.

No idea if it is planned or not, but I think it should be. Energy generation and storage will be very important in the future, and Scotland could be a leader in low carbon energy. Onshore and offshore wind are the ones people think of as the most important but small scale domestic wind, solar and hydro are all possible but not being used in any number at the moment.

Yes, agreed. Decarbonising is a kind of existential thing we have to do even if it costs big £.

I was more interested in whether it might be a growth sector that will make us ££.

[Jack]

This caught my eye - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54285497

Ignoring anything our knob-cheese-for-brains PM says, does anyone have a feel for how much economic benefit renewables could ultimately provide in Scotland? I read somewhere that Scotland has 25% of Europe's renewables potential. Is this a potential game changer for an iScotland finding its feet or just an interesting sidenote?

RyeSloan? Anyone?

I'm sure the unionists will be along shortly to tell us that due to global warming the winds and waves around Scotland become becalmed!

I'm sure it wouldn't take much googling to confirm there have been a number of days in the recent past where Scotland s electricity has been fully provided by renewable sources.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes, agreed. Decarbonising is a kind of existential thing we have to do even if it costs big £.

I was more interested in whether it might be a growth sector that will make us ££.

If only there was a market on our doorstep that we could export excess energy to. 🤔😉

[JeMeSouviens]

This is an interesting listen. A Times focus group of No voters from indyref1.

https://play.acast.com/s/timesredbox/septemberfocusgroup-acastbbb4beb5

Unionists - don't have nightmares. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

This is an interesting listen. A Times focus group of No voters from indyref1.

https://play.acast.com/s/timesredbox/septemberfocusgroup-acastbbb4beb5

Unionists - don't have nightmares. :wink:

Well that was a good listen. Don't tell M59 that they liked Nicola. 🙈

[Smartie]

Yes, agreed. Decarbonising is a kind of existential thing we have to do even if it costs big £.

I was more interested in whether it might be a growth sector that will make us ££.

I remember doing some sort of calculation during Standard Grade physics, where (I think) we worked out that you’d have to cover 2/3 of the surface area of the UK with air turbines to generate the same amount of electricity as one nuclear power plant.

Now, I expect things to have moved on a bit since 1993, but since then I’ve always had that question mark in the back of my mind about the general ability of renewables to meet our total energy needs - particularly when you look at how wasteful some economies who love burning stuff can be.

[Moulin Yarns]

I remember doing some sort of calculation during Standard Grade physics, where (I think) we worked out that you’d have to cover 2/3 of the surface area of the UK with air turbines to generate the same amount of electricity as one nuclear power plant.

Now, I expect things to have moved on a bit since 1993, but since then I’ve always had that question mark in the back of my mind about the general ability of renewables to meet our total energy needs - particularly when you look at how wasteful some economies who love burning stuff can be.

I'll revisit this when I've got a bit more time, but as you say, things will have moved on, but I also reckon your teacher had shares in BNFL and EDF :wink:

I can't remember the quote but a wind farm in the west of Scotland has a footprint of a city the size of (I think) Liverpool. I'll check that.

[JeMeSouviens]

I remember doing some sort of calculation during Standard Grade physics, where (I think) we worked out that you’d have to cover 2/3 of the surface area of the UK with air turbines to generate the same amount of electricity as one nuclear power plant.

Now, I expect things to have moved on a bit since 1993, but since then I’ve always had that question mark in the back of my mind about the general ability of renewables to meet our total energy needs - particularly when you look at how wasteful some economies who love burning stuff can be.

Apparently (according to 5 mins on wikipedia :wink:) we're close to capacity for onshore wind. The possible big gains to come would be offshore wind and wave and tidal.

[Andy Bee]

I'll revisit this when I've got a bit more time, but as you say, things will have moved on, but I also reckon your teacher had shares in BNFL and EDF :wink:

I can't remember the quote but a wind farm in the west of Scotland has a footprint of a city the size of (I think) Liverpool. I'll check that.

It's up Eaglesham moor, very impressive and I believe the largest in Europe

[Moulin Yarns]

It's up Eaglesham moor, very impressive and I believe the largest in Europe

2nd largest. Again Google. 😁

Also, I said it was maybe as large as Liverpool, I think it might be Leeds.

[Jack]

New figures show the equivalent of 90% of Scotland's electricity consumption now comes from renewable sources - an increase of 14% year-on-year.

Trade organisation Scottish Renewables welcomed the figures and said the country’s 100% by 2020 could still be met but that policy uncertainty over recent years had limited deployment.

More ...

https://renews.biz/59350/renewable-electricity-reaches-90-of-scottish-supply/

[Kato]

There was a right load of tosh spoken about Nuclear power from the 60's onwards. Sometimes they weren't even switched on. All they were there for was to enrich plutonium, any electricity generated was a nice by-product but not the reason they existed.

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[The Modfather]

This is an interesting listen. A Times focus group of No voters from indyref1.

https://play.acast.com/s/timesredbox/septemberfocusgroup-acastbbb4beb5

Unionists - don't have nightmares. :wink:

An Interesting listen. Although despite the swing towards yes being very encouraging, not sure who happens to be the current first minister should be a big a factor in voting for or against independence.

Project fear 2 will be a tough gig this time.

[Colr]

An Interesting listen. Although despite the swing towards yes being very encouraging, not sure who happens to be the current first minister should be a big a factor in voting for or against independence.

Project fear 2 will be a tough gig this time.

This is a good summary from one on Quora. They made the interesting point that the last one was held after the London 2012 Olympics which were a high point of positive national pride. That’s been shattered since Brexit. It has for me as well. I was very proud of the way this country presented in 2012 but that was a London event. London’s still multi-cultural and liberal. I don’t think its reflective of the rest of the country.


We have an equivalent GDP to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Croatia combined. Scotland has huge natural resources, even disregarding the North Sea Oil, and a strong culture. We have separate laws, a parliament, a justice system, a functioning transport network, a banking system, our own bank notes. There’s a huge amount of stuff already there. We’re like 60% of the way there already.

[Future17]

An Interesting listen. Although despite the swing towards yes being very encouraging, not sure who happens to be the current first minister should be a big a factor in voting for or against independence.

Project fear 2 will be a tough gig this time.

It shouldn't be, but it will be.

[Colr]

Would an independent Scotland have to pay to maintain the Royal family including the cost of upgrading their homes?

Would it get the Scottish parts of the Crown Estate?

[Just Alf]

Would an independent Scotland have to pay to maintain the Royal family including the cost of upgrading their homes?

Would it get the Scottish parts of the Crown Estate?Good question, I don't think the Commonwealth countries pay any upkeep and that's what we'd effectively be.

The crown estate is another interesting wrinkle to the overall argument, I suppose you could argue that it belongs to the 'Scottish' Crown estate so would split out on independence, any income would then be used to maintain Balmoral etc ?

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[Glory Lurker]

The Crown Estate land in Scotland is Scottish territory so we would get it, but ownership wouldn't change. There might be a negotiation to be had about what happens with the income. Personally, I'd not bother too much about that and just nationalise it on day 1.

[Colr]

Good question, I don't think the Commonwealth countries pay any upkeep and that's what we'd effectively be.

The crown estate is another interesting wrinkle to the overall argument, I suppose you could argue that it belongs to the 'Scottish' Crown estate so would split out on independence, any income would then be used to maintain Balmoral etc ?

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I’m assuming Scotland currently pays for this bollocks

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8774361/The-Queens-cousin-moving-just-dozen-yards-costing-taxpayer-1MILLION.html

[Ozyhibby]

I’m assuming Scotland currently pays for this bollocks

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8774361/The-Queens-cousin-moving-just-dozen-yards-costing-taxpayer-1MILLION.html

We sure do.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I'll revisit this when I've got a bit more time, but as you say, things will have moved on, but I also reckon your teacher had shares in BNFL and EDF :wink:

I can't remember the quote but a wind farm in the west of Scotland has a footprint of a city the size of (I think) Liverpool. I'll check that.

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?348456-Extinction-The-Facts-(David-Attenborough)-plus-other-environmental-concerns&p=6313535&viewfull=1#post6313535

[Bristolhibby]

I'm sure the unionists will be along shortly to tell us that due to global warming the winds and waves around Scotland become becalmed!

I'm sure it wouldn't take much googling to confirm there have been a number of days in the recent past where Scotland s electricity has been fully provided by renewable sources.

Or try to convince us that renewable energy such as wind, wave and tidal power is a burden.

J

[Bristolhibby]

This is a good summary from one on Quora. They made the interesting point that the last one was held after the London 2012 Olympics which were a high point of positive national pride. That’s been shattered since Brexit. It has for me as well. I was very proud of the way this country presented in 2012 but that was a London event. London’s still multi-cultural and liberal. I don’t think its reflective of the rest of the country.


We have an equivalent GDP to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Croatia combined. Scotland has huge natural resources, even disregarding the North Sea Oil, and a strong culture. We have separate laws, a parliament, a justice system, a functioning transport network, a banking system, our own bank notes. There’s a huge amount of stuff already there. We’re like 60% of the way there already.

Don’t forget Education and our own NHS.

I’ll also throw in a very competent military.

Would imagine the Scottish regiments will transfer over. Bit like the Indian army.
Sure it would take some adjusting, and some Unionist soldiers will look to transfer / Remain in the rUK Army.

But there will be opportunity and promotion aplenty for those who continue their service in the Scottish Defence Force.

J

[Saturday Boy]

Or try to convince us that renewable energy such as wind, wave and tidal power is a burden.

J

Having recently consumed a fairly high fibre dinner, it wouldn’t take much to persuade me that wind is a burden.

Hopefully a glass of fizzy lager will help

[Ozyhibby]

I see the latest wheeze the UK govt has is to build a concentration camp on a Scottish Island to process migrants. The location of such a disgusting idea isn’t really the most important thing but the fact they think it’s best to put it in Scotland tells you all you want to know about what they think of us.


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[StevieC]

I see the latest wheeze the UK govt has is to build a concentration camp on a Scottish Island to process migrants. The location of such a disgusting idea isn’t really the most important thing but the fact they think it’s best to put it in Scotland tells you all you want to know about what they think of us.

Its because we also have the best islands. :wink:

[Bostonhibby]

I see the latest wheeze the UK govt has is to build a concentration camp on a Scottish Island to process migrants. The location of such a disgusting idea isn’t really the most important thing but the fact they think it’s best to put it in Scotland tells you all you want to know about what they think of us.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMost of the Brexit types I overhear down here seen getting rid of foreigners as their number one reason for voting as they did.

The majority blame France / Europe for the influx so as they want them all sent back there surely it'll be quicker and easier to process if they use somewhere like the Isle of Wight?

PS, they also tend to blame France/Europe for a range of their own personal misfortunes or shortcomings.

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[Moulin Yarns]

I see the latest wheeze the UK govt has is to build a concentration camp on a Scottish Island to process migrants. The location of such a disgusting idea isn’t really the most important thing but the fact they think it’s best to put it in Scotland tells you all you want to know about what they think of us.


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A bit of a push to declare Ascension Island Scottish. :greengrin

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54349796

However Calmac might have a thing to say about this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54366346

[marinello59]

A bit of a push to declare Ascension Island Scottish. :greengrin

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54349796

However Calmac might have a thing to say about this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54366346

Haven't these poor people suffered enough without being subjected to CalMac catering? :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Haven't these poor people suffered enough without being subjected to CalMac catering? :greengrin

Purely for the 5th verse :greengrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFOW6XLHMXo

[Ozyhibby]

A bit of a push to declare Ascension Island Scottish. :greengrin

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54349796

However Calmac might have a thing to say about this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54366346

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18759714.downing-street-will-not-rule-using-scottish-islands-asylum-processing-plan/


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[marinello59]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18759714.downing-street-will-not-rule-using-scottish-islands-asylum-processing-plan/


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She's a total headcase. She is managing to make former top nut job Michael Howard look like a moderate by comparison.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18759714.downing-street-will-not-rule-using-scottish-islands-asylum-processing-plan/


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It obviously worked for the good old USofA and, let's face it, that's all that matters to this government

https://www.history.com/topics/immigration/ellis-island

[marinello59]

Purely for the 5th verse :greengrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFOW6XLHMXo


Superb. I haven't listened to The Corries for ages, think I'll dig out Bonnet, Belt and Sword and have a wee singalong.:greengrin

[Peevemor]

Purely for the 5th verse :greengrin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFOW6XLHMXo

Reminds me of the bloke who asked "Does this train stop in Oban", to which the reply was "I hope so, if not, there'll be a hell of a splash!"

[Moulin Yarns]

Reminds me of the bloke who asked "Does this train stop in Oban", to which the reply was "I hope so, if not, there'll be a hell of a splash!"

I read that as 'does the RAIN stop in Oban?' and thought, what a stupid question, the rain never stops in Oban. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/review-to-examine-scotland-northern-ireland-bridge-plan?top

English government continues to meddle on devolved matters.

[Glory Lurker]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/review-to-examine-scotland-northern-ireland-bridge-plan?top

English government continues to meddle on devolved matters.

That is shoddy reporting for a Scottish channel. Scottish Government's caution about the proposals doesn't get a mention.

More generally though, you're right. Devolution is getting undermined at a rate of knots.

[One Day Soon]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/review-to-examine-scotland-northern-ireland-bridge-plan?top

English government continues to meddle on devolved matters.


Ahem, "English"?

[Moulin Yarns]

Ahem, "English"?

Yep, they have no say in transport in any devolved nation, therefore in terms of transport they are an English government.

English votes for English laws works both ways. Either that or it's a power grab.

[Bristolhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/review-to-examine-scotland-northern-ireland-bridge-plan?top

English government continues to meddle on devolved matters.

Not that pish again. Good luck with all that WW2 ordnance down there.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

Scottish parliament voting intention:

Constituency
SNO: 50% (-1)
CON: 23% (-1)
LAB: 18% (+1)
LDEM: 6% (-)

List
SNP: 41% (-2)
CON: 21% (-)
LAB: 18% (+2)
GRN: 11% (+1)
LDEM: 7% (-1)

via @SavantaComRes
Chgs. w/ Aug