Scottish Independence

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Blame the media.
Copyright. D Trump.

Donald Trump was the media. That's how he became president in the first place. They gave him all of the publicity he needed.

[James310]

Donald Trump was the media. That's how he became president in the first place. They gave him all of the publicity he needed.

So the media, the courts and the judges are all corrupt and against you and Scottish Independence? You do realise how this is starting to sound?

[TrumpIsAPeado]

So the media, the courts and the judges are all corrupt and against you and Scottish Independence? You do realise how this is starting to sound?

A country's right to self determination shouldn't be based around the media, courts and judges and entirely around the people who make up that country.

Imagine the fury in England had the courts and judges stepped in and effectively halted Brexit.

[James310]

A country's right to self determination shouldn't be based around the media, courts and judges and entirely around the people who make up that country.

Imagine the fury in England had the courts and judges stepped in and effectively halted Brexit.

People voted for Brexit unfortunately, people rejected Independence. Democracy eh?!

[Glory Lurker]

James and other Tories on here, it'd be nice if you could join us on the Tory thread because it's a bit of an echo chamber. I'm sure you'd all feel better too espousing things you believe in rather than just dwell on things you're against.

[James310]

James and other Tories on here, it'd be nice if you could join us on the Tory thread because it's a bit of an echo chamber. I'm sure you'd all feel better too espousing things you believe in rather than just dwell on things you're against.

Nice of you to call me out personally and tell me what I should be posting on....

What if you don't believe in them? What if you think you are being let down by both governments who are as bad as each other?

[Glory Lurker]

Nice of you to call me out personally and tell me what I should be posting on....

What if you don't believe in them? What if you think you are being let down by both governments who are as bad as each other?

Pop on the Labour thread and tell us how good they are.

I was inviting you to do it, not telling you. It might help your cause as all I can see from you, and others, is a negative. If you can't say what the better alternative is then I'd question if you can win the argument.


Edit: seen your post over by! :-)

[James310]

Pop on the Labour thread and tell us how good they are.

I was inviting you to do it, not telling you. It might help your cause as all I can see from you, and others, is a negative. If you can't say what the better alternative is then I'd question if you can win the argument.

Do you get stuck into the SNP on that thread?

[Rumble de Thump]

Blame the media.
Copyright. D Trump.

Trump blames the media for things when he knows perfectly well they're not to blame i.e. the media are simply telling an unpleasant truth about him. But often people who work in the media are to blame for certain things and it would be weird to try to dissuade people from calling that out.

[marinello59]

Trump blames the media for things when he knows perfectly well they're not to blame i.e. the media are simply telling an unpleasant truth about him. But often people who work in the media are to blame for certain things and it would be weird to try to dissuade people from calling that out.

I wouldn’t dissuade anybody from calling the media out for anything. I support the Gender Law reform, it’s the right thing to do and I think something very similar to the proposed legislation will be enacted UK wide sooner rather than later.
The political difficulties Sturgeon finds herself in however are all of her own making, not the medias.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

People voted for Brexit unfortunately, people rejected Independence. Democracy eh?!

People did indeed reject independence in 2014 and Scotland remained in the UK as a result, unfortunately. Since then, the Scottish people have repeatedly voted a Government back into power in Scotland with an independence referendum in it's manifesto.

It seems democracy only counts when it goes the way you want it to, then once it does, the question should never be asked again, even if the people of that country are repeatedly voting in favour of a manifesto that includes that very question.

Democracy ended quite some time ago on this island, hence the media, courts and judges.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

The political difficulties Sturgeon finds herself in however are all of her own making, not the medias.

Can you provide some examples of this?

It seems that the sudden down turn in her popularity is focused mainly around the gender reform issue and I refuse to believe that the media hasn't played it's role in that with it's 'less than accurate' coverage of the issue.

[Hibrandenburg]

Nice of you to call me out personally and tell me what I should be posting on....

What if you don't believe in them? What if you think you are being let down by both governments who are as bad as each other?

Yet you reserve all your rage for the SNP threads and none for the Tory threads. Your actions hardly represent your words.

[James310]

Yet you reserve all your rage for the SNP threads and none for the Tory threads. Your actions hardly represent your words.

Living in Scotland the Scottish Government are responsible for Health, Education, Transport etc. They have a far larger impact on my day to day life than the Government in Westminster.

I don't see Indy supporters angry at the SNP, if anything they seem to be supporting them no matter what. At least I open minded enough to make a choice on what I see and vote accordingly, I will never be someone that votes for one party no matter what.

You are not even based in the UK but seem very angry about the UK Government and support the Scottish Government. I reckon living here I am a bit more qualified to make judgements on the different governments.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Living in Scotland the Scottish Government are responsible for Health, Education, Transport etc. They have a far larger impact on my day to day life than the Government in Westminster.

I don't see Indy supporters angry at the SNP, if anything they seem to be supporting them no matter what. At least I open minded enough to make a choice on what I see and vote accordingly, I will never be someone that votes for one party no matter what.

You are not even based in the UK but seem very angry about the UK Government and support the Scottish Government. I reckon living here I am a bit more qualified to make judgements on the different governments.

You live in the UK. The UK Governing party that Scotland doesn't vote for is the highest power in the land.

With the exception of the non-elected House of Lords..... and the non-elected Head of State.

[Kato]

Living in Scotland the Scottish Government are responsible for Health, Education, Transport etc. They have a far larger impact on my day to day life than the Government in Westminster.



If you really believe that you're playing a poor trick on yourself.

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[Glory Lurker]

Scotland's budget is our portion on the UK budget. Scotland failing is the UK failing.

See also: Wales. England.

[Hibrandenburg]

Living in Scotland the Scottish Government are responsible for Health, Education, Transport etc. They have a far larger impact on my day to day life than the Government in Westminster.

I don't see Indy supporters angry at the SNP, if anything they seem to be supporting them no matter what. At least I open minded enough to make a choice on what I see and vote accordingly, I will never be someone that votes for one party no matter what.

You are not even based in the UK but seem very angry about the UK Government and support the Scottish Government. I reckon living here I am a bit more qualified to make judgements on the different governments.

Again your assumptions about my particular circumstances are false James. I reckon your belief about who really holds the most power over your day to day life are also way off track. The Scottish government can only work within the confines it is set by the UK government. It's like blaming the factory floor supervisor for company mismanagement.

[James310]

Again your assumptions about my particular circumstances are false James. I reckon your belief about who really holds the most power over your day to day life are also way off track. The Scottish government can only work within the confines it is set by the UK government. It's like blaming the factory floor supervisor for company mismanagement.

Why does tbe Scottish Government set targets for Education and Health and many other things? Just for a laugh is it, so they can't achieve them and blame someone else? It's failing to meet its own targets and it someone else's fault..... doesn't really stack up does it.

[Ozyhibby]

Why does tbe Scottish Government set targets for Education and Health and many other things? Just for a laugh is it, so they can't achieve them and blame someone else? It's failing to meet its own targets and it someone else's fault..... doesn't really stack up does it.

Governments failing to meet targets across the UK. It’s almost like that’s where the problem lies.


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[James310]

Governments failing to meet targets across the UK. It’s almost like that’s where the problem lies.


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That doesn't make sense. Why do you think the SG sets Education targets for example?

[Ozyhibby]

That doesn't make sense. Why do you think the SG sets Education targets for example?

Any targets set won’t be met while teachers are not in school. Our budget is dependent on the UK govt. If they decide to pay the teachers more then so can we, because that is the source of funding. If they settle with teachers down south then we can do the same here. It’s a messed up situation but that is the way Scotland works within the UK.


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[James310]

Any targets set won’t be met while teachers are not in school. Our budget is dependent on the UK govt. If they decide to pay the teachers more then so can we, because that is the source of funding. If they settle with teachers down south then we can do the same here. It’s a messed up situation but that is the way Scotland works within the UK.


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I asked why do you think the SG sets targets?

[Ozyhibby]

I asked why do you think the SG sets targets?

All organisations set targets. Nothing unusual about that. The SG won’t be able to meet theirs in education unless the UK govt agrees to fund education better.


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[James310]

All organisations set targets. Nothing unusual about that. The SG won’t be able to meet theirs in education unless the UK govt agrees to fund education better.


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So they are setting targets they know they can't meet? Seems an odd way to govern and not something any organisation should do. Would make much more sense to set targets that actually mean something and achievable.

[Moulin Yarns]

Governments can set ambitious targets or achievable targets.

The UK government has just lowered A&E waiting times in England so that they will look better as they are more achievable, but they won't be comparable with the Scottish targets because targets are different, although that's not what will be portrayed in the media.


How does any government achieve the targets when they aren't the ones that are delivering at the end of the day?

[Ozyhibby]

13 years of austerity and James wonders why targets are not being met. [emoji849]


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[James310]

13 years of austerity and James wonders why targets are not being met. [emoji849]


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Well set more realistic targets, pretty simple. Or does Westminster dictate the SG targets now?😂

This exchange is a classic example of why I think Independence is failing to win over the majority, an attitude of it's never our fault when it goes wrong but when it's positive it was all our own doing, like you and your clapping emojis for Humza. Great job he is doing you said, but it's not his fault when the targets are being missed it's always someone else's fault. Your logic is flawed.

[He's here!]

All organisations set targets. Nothing unusual about that. The SG won’t be able to meet theirs in education unless the UK govt agrees to fund education better.


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This is such a lazy and inaccurate go-to excuse. Scotland has the best-funded education system in the UK.

The SG's utter inaction over the ongoing teacher strikes has been embarrassing. I see the best Somerville can now come up with is asking for a pause in industrial action until the exams are over.

[Moulin Yarns]

Scottish Government inaction??

At least there has been talks with all parties, contrast and compare with England!!!


Oh, sorry, we're not allowed to do that.

[Ozyhibby]

This is such a lazy and inaccurate go-to excuse. Scotland has the best-funded education system in the UK.

The SG's utter inaction over the ongoing teacher strikes has been embarrassing. I see the best Somerville can now come up with is asking for a pause in industrial action until the exams are over.

Scottish teachers are the best paid in the UK as it is. Unless England wants to pay their teachers more then there is nothing we can do. Our funding is decided in London.


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[J-C]

Well set more realistic targets, pretty simple. Or does Westminster dictate the SG targets now?😂

This exchange is a classic example of why I think Independence is failing to win over the majority, an attitude of it's never our fault when it goes wrong but when it's positive it was all our own doing, like you and your clapping emojis for Humza. Great job he is doing you said, but it's not his fault when the targets are being missed it's always someone else's fault. Your logic is flawed.


If the SG sets more realistic targets then all you'll hear is they're not ambitious enough and are settling for mediocrity, they can't win either way. What do you want them to say, money is tight and due to that we're happy for just some of the kids in education to do bang average because that's the level we can teach them at due to what we can do money wise. Or do we want the SG to still try and have one of the best education systems in Europe and aim for as high as we possibly can.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64535980

Strikes to continue through exams if no offer forthcoming.

[He's here!]

Scottish teachers are the best paid in the UK as it is. Unless England wants to pay their teachers more then there is nothing we can do. Our funding is decided in London.


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Why aren't Scottish teachers protesting at Westminster instead of Holyrood?

They know where the blame lies.

[Ozyhibby]

Why aren't Scottish teachers protesting at Westminster instead of Holyrood?

They know where the blame lies.

Yes, why aren’t they spending hundreds of pounds travelling to London? [emoji849]
Actually the women from the EIS said on radio this morning that a settlement in London would help break the deadlock.


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[Just Alf]

If the SG sets more realistic targets then all you'll hear is they're not ambitious enough and are settling for mediocrity, they can't win either way. What do you want them to say, money is tight and due to that we're happy for just some of the kids in education to do bang average because that's the level we can teach them at due to what we can do money wise. Or do we want the SG to still try and have one of the best education systems in Europe and aim for as high as we possibly can. Before Covid the NHS targets were getting missed across the board.

In Scotland the SG had set stretch targets, so while they were indeed missed, they would have been hit if we'd matched targets to England/Wales.

The argument on here at that time was that the SG was still incapable of governing as it couldn't meet its own targets.
No acknowledgement that it was better than anywhere else and comparison was slapped down as what aboutery.

Yet when someone posts on Westminster giving ship contracts to a yard with no staff suddenly its OK to bring up SG awarding contracts to a non Scottish yard. On a thread talking about the UK government.
Classic case of.double standards?

[He's here!]

Yes, why aren’t they spending hundreds of pounds travelling to London? [emoji849]
Actually the women from the EIS said on radio this morning that a settlement in London would help break the deadlock.


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That must be it. They're only pretending to blame Sturgeon because they can't afford to go to London...

I work across several schools over the course of a year and can say with some confidence there's no staff room chat about Sunak's intransigence, only Sturgeon/Somerville's. I'd say most regard Somerville as more hapless than Swinney.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Well set more realistic targets, pretty simple.

You mean the typical tory tactic of endlessly lowering targets so they can claim that they've been met in the papers that they own?

Some Governments actually want to make things better, rather than simply fudging figures to make it appear as if they are.

[James310]

You mean the typical tory tactic of endlessly lowering targets so they can claim that they've been met in the papers that they own?

Some Governments actually want to make things better, rather than simply fudging figures to make it appear as if they are.

In answer to your deleted comment, no.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

In answer to your deleted comment, no.

In response to your response on my deleted comment. You're suggesting that targets should be changed in order to be "more realistic". However, as Ozyhibby pointed out. If public sector workers are on strike, then the realistic target would be zero.

So if you aren't suggesting that there should be no targets, then what are you suggesting? Also, do you think it's good governance to keep lowering targets while standards continue to drop, just to generate favourable headlines?

[James310]

In response to your response on my deleted comment. You're suggesting that targets should be changed in order to be "more realistic". However, as Ozyhibby pointed out. If public sector workers are on strike, then the realistic target would be zero.

So if you aren't suggesting that there should be no targets, then what are you suggesting? Also, do you think it's good governance to keep lowering targets while standards continue to drop, just to generate favourable headlines?

How do you measure performance if you don't have targets? Targets should be SMART. Specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, and time-bound. But I am not a special advisor paid a fortune but they can have that advice for free.

[TrumpIsAPeado]

How do you measure performance if you don't have targets? Targets should be SMART. Specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, and time-bound. But I am not a special advisor paid a fortune but they can have that advice for free.

Right, but if targets have to be consistently dropped time and time again in order to be achievable, should they be consistently dropped in order to be met?

If so, then how does it get to the root of the problem?

[James310]

Right, but if targets have to be consistently dropped time and time again in order to be achievable, should they be consistently dropped in order to be met?

If so, then how does it get to the root of the problem?

Sound like they were not set correctly in the first place if they are not achievable. I don't know anyone that would sign off targets going sure let's sign these off and publish them even although we know they aren't realistic. Sounds like the root of the problem is not following the SMART principles in the first place. And this is for all Governments.

[Ozyhibby]

Sound like they were not set correctly in the first place if they are not achievable. I don't know anyone that would sign off targets going sure let's sign these off and publish them even although we know they aren't realistic. Sounds like the root of the problem is not following the SMART principles in the first place. And this is for all Governments.

Maybe they were achievable pre austerity but it’s proving impossible now?


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[James310]

Maybe they were achievable pre austerity but it’s proving impossible now?


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Were they being achieved?

[Ozyhibby]

https://youtu.be/ljVtYj-YSnk

Worth a watch. Typical person in UK now £8,800 a year worse off than comparable nations. I doubt the UK is going to go down this path though.
Scotland can though.


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[Kato]

https://youtu.be/ljVtYj-YSnk

Worth a watch. Typical person in UK now £8,800 a year worse off than comparable nations. I doubt the UK is going to go down this path though.
Scotland can though.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSo this will be, according another poster, because the Scottish Govt can't hit their targets.

Fwiw, I feel 8 to 10 grand poorer than I did 12 years ago.

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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Sound like they were not set correctly in the first place if they are not achievable. I don't know anyone that would sign off targets going sure let's sign these off and publish them even although we know they aren't realistic. Sounds like the root of the problem is not following the SMART principles in the first place. And this is for all Governments.

Surely the purpose of setting targets so high is to achieve the best performance possible, even if the target can't be met? Why limit performance by lowering targets?

It would be like Hibs aiming for 6th (instead of top 3) then being satisfied with 8th.

[J-C]

Surely the purpose of setting targets so high is to achieve the best performance possible, even if the target can't be met? Why limit performance by lowering targets?

It would be like Hibs aiming for 6th (instead of top 3) then being satisfied with 8th.


As I said earlier they could just set low standards and say, look we're doing great but then people will just say the standards are far too low and we should aim higher, can't win either way.

[Jack]

I understand that although the targets % wise are not being met more patients are being treated in our hospitals. Maybe their should be more than 1 target per discipline. That is what we have and something to do with how many are being treated.

[He's here!]

All organisations set targets. Nothing unusual about that. The SG won’t be able to meet theirs in education unless the UK govt agrees to fund education better.


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Teaching unions to target Sturgeon and Somerville's constituencies in ongoing strike action:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64555500

Seems so fruitless when the blame lies with Westminster and Sturgeon's hands are tied.

[Hibrandenburg]

Teaching unions to target Sturgeon and Somerville's constituencies in ongoing strike action:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64555500

Seems so fruitless when the blame lies with Westminster and Sturgeon's hands are tied.

Who should go without to allow the Teachers the pay rise they deserve?

[Stairway 2 7]

Who should go without to allow the Teachers the pay rise they deserve?

Scotlands budget has gone up roughly with inflation over the last 10 years. Teachers wages have gone down around 28% relative to inflation. If you think that is acceptable from the Scottish Government then your politics are to the right of most I'd say.

The question should be why has scot gov allowed public sector wages to be decimated so badly. We could afford to pay the public sector workers much more fairly 10 years ago, so could chose to do so now.

Yes the Tory party are disgusting and have also deliberately decimated public sector wages. Even still our barometer of success shouldn't be to just be less bad than England, especially since barnett means we have £2k per person per year more to spend

[Ozyhibby]

Scotlands budget has gone up roughly with inflation over the last 10 years. Teachers wages have gone down around 28% relative to inflation. If you think that is acceptable from the Scottish Government then your politics are to the right of most I'd say.

The question should be why has scot gov allowed public sector wages to be decimated so badly. We could afford to pay the public sector workers much more fairly 10 years ago, so could chose to do so now.

Yes the Tory party are disgusting and have also deliberately decimated public sector wages. Even still our barometer of success shouldn't be to just be less bad than England, especially since barnett means we have £2k per person per year more to spend

While we are run from England, it will always be the barometer.


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[Just Alf]

Scotlands budget has gone up roughly with inflation over the last 10 years. Teachers wages have gone down around 28% relative to inflation. If you think that is acceptable from the Scottish Government then your politics are to the right of most I'd say.

The question should be why has scot gov allowed public sector wages to be decimated so badly. We could afford to pay the public sector workers much more fairly 10 years ago, so could chose to do so now.

Yes the Tory party are disgusting and have also deliberately decimated public sector wages. Even still our barometer of success shouldn't be to just be less bad than England, especially since barnett means we have £2k per person per year more to spendI agree with most of that.

But we are where we are now... so moving on from the current position, to allow one sector to have more, another needs to have less.

The increased revenue from Westminster has been apportioned out... to allow teachers more than what's available actually means reducing what others already have?

[Stairway 2 7]

Two polls show people don't want a referendum this year. That wasn't going to happen anyway. If the defacto referendum is cancelled, I guess we're many years away

https://archive.ph/j9tFx

[marinello59]

Two polls show people don't want a referendum this year. That wasn't going to happen anyway. If the defacto referendum is cancelled, I guess we're many years away

https://archive.ph/j9tFx

I’d be amazed if the defacto referundum happened now. There’s been noises coming out for a while now back tracking on that one and Stewart McDonald’s intervention looks like it’s been sanctioned by the leadership.

[Ozyhibby]

I’d be amazed if the defacto referundum happened now. There’s been noises coming out for a while now back tracking on that one and Stewart McDonald’s intervention looks like it’s been sanctioned by the leadership.

I really hope so.[emoji1696]


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[marinello59]

I really hope so.[emoji1696]


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So do I. It’s a ridiculous idea.

[Pretty Boy]

Two polls show people don't want a referendum this year. That wasn't going to happen anyway. If the defacto referendum is cancelled, I guess we're many years away

https://archive.ph/j9tFx

Scotland feels like it is at a crossroads.

We could quite easily find ourselves going the way of Quebec, the referendum there in 1995 was lost by a wafer thin margin (50.58 v 49.42%) or put another way circa 54K votes or just over 1% of the voter turnout. Current support for independence for Quebec sits at between 25 and 32% depending what source you consult. The movement just ran out of steam for a variety of reasons and has never really recovered.

I've felt for sometime that whilst the SNP may be the only realistic democratic route to independence in Scotland they also increasingly appear to be the movements biggest liability. Their governance is poor on a range of issues, most people are aware of the restrictions they operate under but that doesn't excuse some of the overall poor performance regardless of however much people wish it was the case. The lack of competent opposition, elections in Scotland being single issue for a significant number and a monstrous Tory government in London has been a gift for them. One of those factors looks set to be removed in the not too distant future and it will be interesting to watch and see if there is any shift. It's also worth considering that almost a decade on from 2014 people are no longer naive to what divorcing from a long established political union involves. We've all lived through Brexit and assurances around future EU membership and our relationship with a Scotland free rUK need to be far clearer and more iron clad than they are now.

The SNP are electorally comfortable currently but things change quickly in politics. There comes a point when every party is held to account by their supporters. It happened to Labour in Scotland at lightning speed, in
January 2011 they were polling at close to 50% with some pollsters, In February and March it was still well over 40% with a number of companies, by May it had dropped to 25% with at least a couple of polling companies and they were decimated at the ballot box. I really struggle to see how anyone with a political ideology with any real definition can be satisfied with the performance of the SNP, particularly those on the left which is ultimately where my own politics lies and the movement I care about.

I really don't know where we go from here but the independence movement as a whole feels increasingly unappealing to me and I struggle to muster any enthusiasm for it at all.

[Curried]

So do I. It’s a ridiculous idea.

How so? A GE would give OS Scots a vote for the first time (conditions apply).
I'm not sure what the numbers would be, but perhaps the pro IND's in the diaspora would compensate for the exclusion of EU residents and under 16-18's that could vote indy in a Holyrood Election, but are excluded in a GE.

PS. I'm sure Micky Gove knows the likely outcome.

[marinello59]

How so? A GE would give OS Scots a vote for the first time (conditions apply).
I'm not sure what the numbers would be, but perhaps the pro IND's in the diaspora would compensate for the exclusion of EU residents and under 16-18's that could vote indy in a Holyrood Election, but are excluded in a GE.

PS. I'm sure Micky Gove knows the likely outcome.

I refer the honourable Gentlemam to the paper that Stewart McDonald published earlier. :greengrin

[Curried]

I refer the honourable Gentlemam to the paper that Stewart McDonald published earlier. :greengrin

My apologies :aok:

[TrumpIsAPeado]

So do I. It’s a ridiculous idea.

Perhaps. But without it, there are no other ideas. Every democratic route has been cut off by the London dictatorship.

[Ozyhibby]

Perhaps. But without it, there are no other ideas. Every democratic route has been cut off by the London dictatorship.

That isn’t a route though. We have to be patient and keep building the case.


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[greenginger]

Scotlands budget has gone up roughly with inflation over the last 10 years. Teachers wages have gone down around 28% relative to inflation. If you think that is acceptable from the Scottish Government then your politics are to the right of most I'd say.

The question should be why has scot gov allowed public sector wages to be decimated so badly. We could afford to pay the public sector workers much more fairly 10 years ago, so could chose to do so now.

Yes the Tory party are disgusting and have also deliberately decimated public sector wages. Even still our barometer of success shouldn't be to just be less bad than England, especially since barnett means we have £2k per person per year more to spend


What sectors of have had funding increases that caused the shortfall in teachers salaries ?

[He's here!]

Scotland feels like it is at a crossroads.

We could quite easily find ourselves going the way of Quebec, the referendum there in 1995 was lost by a wafer thin margin (50.58 v 49.42%) or put another way circa 54K votes or just over 1% of the voter turnout. Current support for independence for Quebec sits at between 25 and 32% depending what source you consult. The movement just ran out of steam for a variety of reasons and has never really recovered.

I've felt for sometime that whilst the SNP may be the only realistic democratic route to independence in Scotland they also increasingly appear to be the movements biggest liability. Their governance is poor on a range of issues, most people are aware of the restrictions they operate under but that doesn't excuse some of the overall poor performance regardless of however much people wish it was the case. The lack of competent opposition, elections in Scotland being single issue for a significant number and a monstrous Tory government in London has been a gift for them. One of those factors looks set to be removed in the not too distant future and it will be interesting to watch and see if there is any shift. It's also worth considering that almost a decade on from 2014 people are no longer naive to what divorcing from a long established political union involves. We've all lived through Brexit and assurances around future EU membership and our relationship with a Scotland free rUK need to be far clearer and more iron clad than they are now.

The SNP are electorally comfortable currently but things change quickly in politics. There comes a point when every party is held to account by their supporters. It happened to Labour in Scotland at lightning speed, in
January 2011 they were polling at close to 50% with some pollsters, In February and March it was still well over 40% with a number of companies, by May it had dropped to 25% with at least a couple of polling companies and they were decimated at the ballot box. I really struggle to see how anyone with a political ideology with any real definition can be satisfied with the performance of the SNP, particularly those on the left which is ultimately where my own politics lies and the movement I care about.

I really don't know where we go from here but the independence movement as a whole feels increasingly unappealing to me and I struggle to muster any enthusiasm for it at all.

Good post.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Perhaps. But without it, there are no other ideas. Every democratic route has been cut off by the London dictatorship.

It's ok though, Stewart McDonald has said that if we just get one more mandate then Westminster will listen (despite ignoring the last 4 mandates it will be different this time...). SNP are taking folk for fools

[Stairway 2 7]

What sectors of have had funding increases that caused the shortfall in teachers salaries ?

There's been a 10 budgets in between. I'm sure many of the decisions are worthwhile. But you need to prioritise exch budget with the most worthwhile things at the top, then sometimes the less important things fall of the other side.

You should never get to the point that you constantly decrease wages for a decade so public sector workers are 20 odd % down in real terms. Its been a failure in each budget. I'm sure we could all say what should and shouldn't be in each budget, but we're laymen. The government should be able to to it so teachers aren't using foodbanks in some instances

[grunt]

It's ok though, Stewart McDonald has said that if we just get one more mandate then Westminster will listen (despite ignoring the last 4 mandates it will be different this time...). SNP are taking folk for fools
That's not exactly what he said though, is it?

[ronaldo7]

I’d be amazed if the defacto referundum happened now. There’s been noises coming out for a while now back tracking on that one and Stewart McDonald’s intervention looks like it’s been sanctioned by the leadership.

Plenty motions have been passed at individual branch level to be discussed at the Special democracy conference.

It's not the only show in town.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Plenty motions have been passed at individual branch level to be discussed at the Special democracy conference.

It's not the only show in town.

off topic a tad and just out of interest how many Delegates are allowed from each branch, is it size of branch/area etc, Bathgate is allowed 12, one day i'll finally get along to a meeting to see some old faces

[ronaldo7]

off topic a tad and just out of interest how many Delegates are allowed from each branch, is it size of branch/area etc, Bathgate is allowed 12, one day i'll finally get along to a meeting to see some old faces

Size of branch.

[James310]

That isn’t a route though. We have to be patient and keep building the case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But you wanted a referendum in October this year not that long ago.

Plus the route is still going to be through Westminster if the Scotland Act S30 process is to be used as per last time.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Size of branch.


muchas gracias

[GlesgaeHibby]

That's not exactly what he said though, is it?

Effectively is what he said. Yes, there was some extra waffle about how this time will be different - 'we'll make the manifesto clear, and we might even put some words about independence on the ballot paper'. The strategy is still based on the assumption that at some point Westminster will accept one of the mandates given to the SNP, which based on all the evidence we've seen to date suggests otherwise.

I wasted 15 minutes of my life reading the report, but really should have stopped after reading this from the foreword by Alex Neil:

With the SNP victorious, Westminster will be compelled to act. In these circumstances they will succumb and offer us a second independence referendum; a referendum which we would win.

[Ozyhibby]

Effectively is what he said. Yes, there was some extra waffle about how this time will be different - 'we'll make the manifesto clear, and we might even put some words about independence on the ballot paper'. The strategy is still based on the assumption that at some point Westminster will accept one of the mandates given to the SNP, which based on all the evidence we've seen to date suggests otherwise.

I wasted 15 minutes of my life reading the report, but really should have stopped after reading this from the foreword by Alex Neil:

With the SNP victorious, Westminster will be compelled to act. In these circumstances they will succumb and offer us a second independence referendum; a referendum which we would win.





Which plan are you describing?


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[grunt]

Effectively is what he said. Yes, there was some extra waffle about how this time will be different ...
So, not what he said then.

[Rumble de Thump]

It's ok though, Stewart McDonald has said that if we just get one more mandate then Westminster will listen (despite ignoring the last 4 mandates it will be different this time...). SNP are taking folk for fools

Out of all the political parties in the UK, it's certainly not the SNP taking people for fools.

[Jones28]

Saw a Party Political Broadcast by the stupid Lino Party last night, and all they could talk about was the Ferries and stopping the SNP.


They've got nothing.

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/LeePirie/status/1623590992371765252?t=2z1t2A3-BXqPExbVeARVtA&s=19

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/LeePirie/status/1623590992371765252?t=2z1t2A3-BXqPExbVeARVtA&s=19

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There is only so much we can do though. Scottish people are still getting poorer in the UK.


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Scottish people are still getting poorer in the UK.

Indeed. However, the UK establishment seem to have successfully convinced enough people in Scotland that it's the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon and Holyrood that are directly to blame.

Another propaganda war victory for them to add to their historical collection of propaganda war victories.

[James310]

I reckon Stewart MacDonald has been reading hibs.net as his report on Independence states:

"According to the polls, about 45% of Scots have continued to support independence through thick and thin since the first referendum in 2014. Clearly that level of support won’t deliver independence.
The First Minister herself is on record as saying we need to aspire to getting support for independence up to around the 60 per cent mark."

But how would he judge when the support was at 60%? 😉

[WeeRussell]

I reckon Stewart MacDonald has been reading hibs.net as his report on Independence states:

"According to the polls, about 45% of Scots have continued to support independence through thick and thin since the first referendum in 2014. Clearly that level of support won’t deliver independence.
The First Minister herself is on record as saying we need to aspire to getting support for independence up to around the 60 per cent mark."

But how would he judge when the support was at 60%? 😉

Unlike a couple of posters on hibs.net, he’s not saying support needs to be showing at a certain level (in this case 60%) for us to be allowed our democratic rights. Only, and quite rightly, that they aspire for increased support in order to ensure successful delivery.

[Mibbes Aye]

Surprised that there's been no mention of Tom Nairn's passing on this or other threads. In his day he was a big figure in arguing for independence for Scotland.

He tried to marry his original Marxism with the influence of the Gramsci school he acquired living in Italy and then his drift towards nationalism. By the 1970s I would say he was right up there in arguing a position based on left-wing nationalist populism.

His arguments are less relevant now, they were pretty contextual to the time, as could be said about Gramsci. He does deserve credit for trying to articulate a bridge between Scottish nationalism and the New Left of the 60s and 70s. That sort of philosophical bridge between nationalism and socialism is hard to find nowadays, certainly examples that have any intellectual heft.

I disagreed with a fair amount of his analysis but it's good to read an informed view that challenges one's own. Worth a look up if you haven't read him before and this sort of stuff interests you.

[James310]

https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,could-it-be-that-a-party-claiming-to-be-uniquely-in-tune-with-scottish-people-is-losing-touch

New poll with a 12 point lead for No. The largest lead for No since 2019.

[Hibernian Verse]

https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,could-it-be-that-a-party-claiming-to-be-uniquely-in-tune-with-scottish-people-is-losing-touch

New poll with a 12 point lead for No.

I've been an SNP voter since I left school in 2010, but that article sums my feelings up just now. There's a growing apathy inside me towards the party. All these woke policies are turning me right off, and even when they are trying to do something right like the 20p recycling refund they are making an arse of it.

I'll still vote SNP as a means to an end, but they'll not be getting my vote after they secure independence whenever that may be.

[He's here!]

https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,nicola-sturgeon-is-starting-to-look-like-the-snps-independence-albatross

'Sturgeon is starting to look like the SNP's independence albatross'

Can't imagine Mandy Rhodes is still Sturgeon's favourite journalist after this withering - but accurate - take-down.

[He's here!]

https://www.holyrood.com/comment/view,could-it-be-that-a-party-claiming-to-be-uniquely-in-tune-with-scottish-people-is-losing-touch

New poll with a 12 point lead for No. The largest lead for No since 2019.

https://www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,lord-ashcroft-poll-reveals-gulf-between-scottish-government-and-voters-on-independence-and-gender-reforms

Poll results in more detail.

[OldEast]

I've been an SNP voter since I left school in 2010, but that article sums my feelings up just now. There's a growing apathy inside me towards the party. All these woke policies are turning me right off, and even when they are trying to do something right like the 20p recycling refund they are making an arse of it.

I'll still vote SNP as a means to an end, but they'll not be getting my vote after they secure independence whenever that may be.

You've just summed the whole sorry mess up perfectly. Unbelievably but sadly true, too many people can't separate SNP current policy from how things will be post independence. Until the SNP leadership make it perfectly clear at every opportunity that a vote for independence doesn't mean SNP rule forevermore then I believe it's a cause which won't be won.

[grunt]

All these woke policies are turning me right off ...Oh dear.

[Hibernian Verse]

Oh dear.

How would you like me to phrase it? I'll be more considerate re: the term in the future in case I offend anyone.

[Zambernardi1875]

I've been an SNP voter since I left school in 2010, but that article sums my feelings up just now. There's a growing apathy inside me towards the party. All these woke policies are turning me right off, and even when they are trying to do something right like the 20p recycling refund they are making an arse of it.

I'll still vote SNP as a means to an end, but they'll not be getting my vote after they secure independence whenever that may be.

Pretty much sums up how I feel also

[JohnM1875]

I've been an SNP voter since I left school in 2010, but that article sums my feelings up just now. There's a growing apathy inside me towards the party. All these woke policies are turning me right off, and even when they are trying to do something right like the 20p recycling refund they are making an arse of it.

I'll still vote SNP as a means to an end, but they'll not be getting my vote after they secure independence whenever that may be.

Feel the exact same. Can't be bothered with them as a party at all anymore, only vote for them cause I want to see an independent Scotland and it seems to be the only way to make it a possibility.

[marinello59]

Feel the exact same. Can't be bothered with them as a party at all anymore, only vote for them cause I want to see an independent Scotland and it seems to be the only way to make it a possibility.

After nearly nine years of asking us to lend them our vote for Indy I’m starting to think they may be kicking the backside out of it. I certainly wouldn’t lend them my lawnmower, I’d never see it again. :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

How would you like me to phrase it? I'll be more considerate re: the term in the future in case I offend anyone.

Eyes on the prize man. You are falling into the Unionist trap.

It’s a hard struggle but focus on the bigger picture. Independence.

And making life a bit better for a small number of people is woke. Then I am awoke to it.

J

[Bristolhibby]

You do know that the first election come Independence there likely not to even be an SNP in its current form?

There will be a massive reordering of politics. Choose who you want. There will be PR.

But we’ve got to get there. And quite frankly ignore the noise coming from the Unionists.

J

[Mibbes Aye]

You do know that the first election come Independence there likely not to even be an SNP in its current form?

There will be a massive reordering of politics. Choose who you want. There will be PR.

But we’ve got to get there. And quite frankly ignore the noise coming from the Unionists.

J

I've read this a lot but I've never seen a reasoned, evidence-based argument for it.

Perhaps the closest example we have in modern European history is the break-up of Yugoslavia. That led to nationalist parties becoming more entrenched in their nationalism. Nothing progressive there, and in that poor region's case, fear stoking hatred, hatred stoking violence, violence leading to genocide and ethnic cleansing.

No one is suggesting for a minute that there would be scenes like that here and Yugoslavia is only the closest comparator, not a predictor. Nevertheless it is informative that dissolution of the union only begat a greater sense of division, difference and grievance.

There's also the sniff test. Politicians don't readily give up power. There would always be an excuse or reason - perhaps the SNP would rechristen itself as 'keepers of the true flame' or some such jibber-jabbery. Let's face it, if we couldn't get shot of Swinney, Yousef and Robison for utter incompetence then why would they go voluntarily?

[Ozyhibby]

I've read this a lot but I've never seen a reasoned, evidence-based argument for it.

Perhaps the closest example we have in modern European history is the break-up of Yugoslavia. That led to nationalist parties becoming more entrenched in their nationalism. Nothing progressive there, and in that poor region's case, fear stoking hatred, hatred stoking violence, violence leading to genocide and ethnic cleansing.

No one is suggesting for a minute that there would be scenes like that here and Yugoslavia is only the closest comparator, not a predictor. Nevertheless it is informative that dissolution of the union only begat a greater sense of division, difference and grievance.

There's also the sniff test. Politicians don't readily give up power. There would always be an excuse or reason - perhaps the SNP would rechristen itself as 'keepers of the true flame' or some such jibber-jabbery. Let's face it, if we couldn't get shot of Swinney, Yousef and Robison for utter incompetence then why would they go voluntarily?

While I agree the SNP will be there to vote for after independence, mentioning the UK in the same breadth as Yugoslavia undermines your point somewhat.
The SNP will exist after Indy because the infrastructure is there and people will keep that going. Some will leave for political parties that they would traditionally align with if Scotland were already independent. Labour might see a surge in membership. Tories probably stay the same. Might take a couple of elections but eventually the SNP will lose to someone. Nothing is forever.
What is tiresome though is that everything in Scotland is seen through the prism of the constitution. It stifles proper debate. Every issue gets hijacked by both sides in service of their argument. It’s a terrible state of affairs.


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[Stairway 2 7]

There will be nationalists parties and rejoin parties, probably similar to Northern Ireland. There will be calls to rejoin immediately, especially since we'll obviously be financially worse off for a few years after.

We need to hit the ground running get a route to Europe and a better aligned parties to Scotlands more left wing stance

[Hibrandenburg]

There will be nationalists parties and rejoin parties, probably similar to Northern Ireland. There will be calls to rejoin immediately, especially since we'll obviously be financially worse off for a few years after.

We need to hit the ground running get a route to Europe and a better aligned parties to Scotlands more left wing stance

No chance of being allowed into the EU, apparently we're too stupid and poor to even recycle drink containers.

[Kato]

While I agree the SNP will be there to vote for after independence, mentioning the UK in the same breadth as Yugoslavia undermines your point somewhat.
The SNP will exist after Indy because the infrastructure is there and people will keep that going. Some will leave for political parties that they would traditionally align with if Scotland were already independent. Labour might see a surge in membership. Tories probably stay the same. Might take a couple of elections but eventually the SNP will lose to someone. Nothing is forever.
What is tiresome though is that everything in Scotland is seen through the prism of the constitution. It stifles proper debate. Every issue gets hijacked by both sides in service of their argument. It’s a terrible state of affairs.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThere is a path which will echo MA's fears. If the polls change, which demographics suggest they will, the British establishment could play their final and most venal card, foment hate. They have performed this trick many times to destabilise countries seeking a break from their rule. Whip up the British Nationalist faction, while at the same time encouraging the Braveheart Bams against them. Not so much Balkanisation as NoSurrenderisation. Any scoffers can just look over the water.

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[Kato]

No chance of being allowed into the EU, apparently we're too stupid and poor to even recycle drink containers.We aren't genetically competent enough to be in the EU. We can't even get taking juice boatles back right, an old and lost skill. I was too young to gain entry to the cinema paid for with a jam-jar, but that was a thing when ma Ma was a nipper.

I was an expert recycler from a young age. I'd jump over the wall of R Carri's ice-cream factory on the wisp, cadge a few empties then take them back for when the van came to the street. I'm not proud, this is just reportage.

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[Mibbes Aye]

There is a path which will echo MA's fears. If the polls change, which demographics suggest they will, the British establishment could play their final and most venal card, foment hate. They have performed this trick many times to destabilise countries seeking a break from their rule. Whip up the British Nationalist faction, while at the same time encouraging the Braveheart Bams against them. Not so much Balkanisation as NoSurrenderisation. Any scoffers can just look over the water.

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Yeah, that only works when you try and portray Scotland as colonised and airbrush the fact that 'they British' are 'we British'.

[Mibbes Aye]

No chance of being allowed into the EU, apparently we're too stupid and poor to even recycle drink containers.


We aren't genetically competent enough to be in the EU. We can't even get taking juice boatles back right, an old and lost skill. I was too young to gain entry to the cinema paid for with a jam-jar, but that was a thing when ma Ma was a nipper.

I was an expert recycler from a young age. I'd jump over the wall of R Carri's ice-cream factory on the wisp, cadge a few empties then take them back for when the van came to the street. I'm not proud, this is just reportage.

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The only people who call Scottish voters 'stupid' etc on here are Nats.

It's like you never got over being rejected in 2014, and you can't stop the grievance oozing out.

Your choice of language betrays you.

[grunt]

If the polls change, which demographics suggest they will, the British establishment could play their final and most venal card, foment hate.


Yeah, that only works when you try and portray Scotland as colonised and airbrush the fact that 'they British' are 'we British'.


The only people who call Scottish voters 'stupid' etc on here are Nats. It's like you never got over being rejected in 2014, and you can't stop the grievance oozing out. Your choice of language betrays you.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fo3S9H0XwBUSHvP?format=jpg&name=large

[Kato]

Yeah, that only works when you try and portray Scotland as colonised and airbrush the fact that 'they British' are 'we British'.

I wasn't portraying Scotland as colonised and you are completely avoiding history and the cultural reality. And as a point of history the whole island of Ireland was British up until a hundred years or so ago.

You were the one waving the big "you better watch out" stick with the lessons of the former Yugoslavia. There was an argument against and a scenario showing a possibility.

How would you go about avoiding sectarian division in a post independent Scotland?

What factors do you think could play out?

Why, in a supposed enlightened 21st century, is an obvious sectarian problem allowed to go on with almost no comment.


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[James310]

The only people who call Scottish voters 'stupid' etc on here are Nats.

It's like you never got over being rejected in 2014, and you can't stop the grievance oozing out.

Your choice of language betrays you.

They can keep it going for as long as they want. It advances Independence not an inch, can't see the undecided group thinking I like the look of that, where do I sign up.

[hibsbollah]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fo3S9H0XwBUSHvP?format=jpg&name=large

He’s not a man who exists in a vacuum. An entitled English nationalism which found its zenith in the rioting of hundreds of racists in Liverpool at the weekend, and which seems to not to be of interest to our media. Stoked by the Express and the Mail for the last 20 years or more. Scotland has plenty of problems and it’s fair share of intolerance but we don’t have this kind of normalisation of extremism.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fo3S9H0XwBUSHvP?format=jpg&name=large

That's a parody piece in the guardian

[hibsbollah]

That's a parody piece in the guardian

The John Crace piece? The scary thing about is was it all completely believable coming from that character.

[grunt]

That's a parody piece in the guardian


The John Crace piece? The scary thing about is was it all completely believable coming from that character.
I'm sorry. I'm usually better at spotting these. At a low ebb.

[James310]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fo3S9H0XwBUSHvP?format=jpg&name=large

That's not actually real.

Here is what fake Lee had to say about the BBC.

"We’ve had more than enough of the so-called British Broadcasting Corporation. It may have once served a purpose, but now all it does is talk England down..."

Now remove the word England and replace it with Scotland and many on here would probably agree with fake Lee.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'm sorry. I'm usually better at spotting these. At a low ebb.

Nothing to be sorry about its a great funny is depressing article as hibsbollah says, the point is that it could be his bile.

I think it's disgusting that the tories oxbridge lot think this is the man that will win back the working class.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64587011

Imagine what we could do with all the tax levers.


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[Glory Lurker]

That's not actually real.

Here is what fake Lee had to say about the BBC.

"We’ve had more than enough of the so-called British Broadcasting Corporation. It may have once served a purpose, but now all it does is talk England down..."

Now remove the word England and replace it with Scotland and many on here would probably agree with fake Lee.

Bet he's using England as meaning the UK!

[LewysGot2]

Nothing to be sorry about its a great funny is depressing article as hibsbollah says, the point is that it could be his bile.

I think it's disgusting that the tories oxbridge lot think this is the man that will win back the working class.

Hes their useful idiot and doesn’t realise. And that’s being kind.

[ronaldo7]

There is a path which will echo MA's fears. If the polls change, which demographics suggest they will, the British establishment could play their final and most venal card, foment hate. They have performed this trick many times to destabilise countries seeking a break from their rule. Whip up the British Nationalist faction, while at the same time encouraging the Braveheart Bams against them. Not so much Balkanisation as NoSurrenderisation. Any scoffers can just look over the water.

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They're on full attack mode at the moment. You only need to read a few of the media outlets and listen to the likes of James naughtie telling his listeners that the FM is looking tired and asks whether she should step aside.

In tandem you'll get billboards in the central belt going up from a group calling themselves the majority with a resign sturgeon message.

The British nationalists are in full flow at the moment.

[hibsbollah]

They're on full attack mode at the moment. You only need to read a few of the media outlets and listen to the likes of James naughtie telling his listeners that the FM is looking tired and asks whether she should step aside.

In tandem you'll get billboards in the central belt going up from a group calling themselves the majority with a resign sturgeon message.

The British nationalists are in full flow at the moment.

I listened to the R4 programme and naughties piece was very balanced to be fair. It’s justifiable as a news story because polling HAS shown she’s becoming less popular.

[grunt]

https://t.co/mGXkFJ98UK

Cancer Research UK is to end funding for Scottish and Welsh clinical trials units. They continue to fund seven sites in England including a new site in Oxford.

[Skol]

They're on full attack mode at the moment. You only need to read a few of the media outlets and listen to the likes of James naughtie telling his listeners that the FM is looking tired and asks whether she should step aside.

In tandem you'll get billboards in the central belt going up from a group calling themselves the majority with a resign sturgeon message.

The British nationalists are in full flow at the moment.


You made that all up didn’t you? And of course you need to get the British nationalist jibe in as well.

[He's here!]

You made that all up didn’t you? And of course you need to get the British nationalist jibe in as well.

The billboards are real. Drove past one on Ferry Road. Looks great. Not aware of any 'British nationalist' connection though. Why not members of the Scottish electorate fed up with the SG's incompetence as they lurch from one policy blunder to another? No wonder she's looking tired.

[James310]

They're on full attack mode at the moment. You only need to read a few of the media outlets and listen to the likes of James naughtie telling his listeners that the FM is looking tired and asks whether she should step aside.

In tandem you'll get billboards in the central belt going up from a group calling themselves the majority with a resign sturgeon message.

The British nationalists are in full flow at the moment.

Isn't that a constant state though, you pretty much think these "British Nationalists" whoever they are are always on full on attack.

To be honest at the moment they can sit back and relax, the SNP are doing their work for them.

[Ozyhibby]

The billboards are real. Drove past one on Ferry Road. Looks great. Not aware of any 'British nationalist' connection though. Why not members of the Scottish electorate fed up with the SG's incompetence as they lurch from one policy blunder to another? No wonder she's looking tired.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230214/6b00af0e44824dc66c0f8703fad0a91b.jpg
A Scottish govt that is delivering for the poorest in society every single day. A Scottish govt that is the most progressive in the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64587011

Scotland now has the lowest inequality in the UK. And it’s the SNP that is delivering that for the Scottish people. Which other party could do that?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/gordon-brown-report-future-uk-29207177

Splits in Labour Party opening up.


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[James310]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230214/6b00af0e44824dc66c0f8703fad0a91b.jpg
A Scottish govt that is delivering for the poorest in society every single day. A Scottish govt that is the most progressive in the UK.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64587011

Scotland now has the lowest inequality in the UK. And it’s the SNP that is delivering that for the Scottish people. Which other party could do that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It can do that because of redistribution across the UK, there is a large fiscal transfer each year that covers the difference between what Scotland raises in revenue and what it spends. This allows Scotland to make different choices and the freedom to do so, devolution working as it should. You are highlighting one of the benefits of the Union and saying it's a positive thing while at the same time campaigning to end it.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-budget-guide/

If you want to present an alternative plan where the current level of spending is maintained after Independence please do so.

[ronaldo7]

You made that all up didn’t you? And of course you need to get the British nationalist jibe in as well.

Which part?

The majority, run by Mark and Mary Devlin are most definitely British nationalists. They ran a crowd fund receiving £5700 from 152 donations to put up the billboards.

James Naughtie is real. He does a show on the wireless.

So again...which part was made up?

[ronaldo7]

Isn't that a constant state though, you pretty much think these "British Nationalists" whoever they are are always on full on attack.

To be honest at the moment they can sit back and relax, the SNP are doing their work for them.

Those two most definitely are. Ably supported by folk with more money than sense.

[ronaldo7]

So 2 people are on full on attack, do you think it makes much difference? I guess it's maybe the equivalent of people that fund Wings and Craig Murray etc. I am sure some on here funded Alex Salmond as well!

I thought you were all about facts.

Are we not allowed to post these things on here these days?

You'll have proof of people funding Alex Salmond.

Let's see it. 👀

[HNA11]

Unfortunately we are here again with multiple people refusing to tone down their rhetoric on an admittedly emotive issue and using both language and tone that is quite evidently inflammatory and provocative.

There have been enough polite requests and firm warnings posted publicly so we have had to take more decisive action and hand out formal warnings, infractions and regrettably a temporary ban.

It's not something we enjoy doing so please make our jobs easier and the board more enjoyable for everyone by thinking before you post.

[Zambernardi1875]

It can do that because of redistribution across the UK, there is a large fiscal transfer each year that covers the difference between what Scotland raises in revenue and what it spends. This allows Scotland to make different choices and the freedom to do so, devolution working as it should. You are highlighting one of the benefits of the Union and saying it's a positive thing while at the same time campaigning to end it.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-budget-guide/

If you want to present an alternative plan where the current level of spending is maintained after Independence please do so.

Do you genuinely believe Westminster would give Scotland back more
Then it generates out the goodness of their heart without any ulterior motive. Come on

[James310]

Do you genuinely believe Westminster would give Scotland back more
Then it generates out the goodness of their heart without any ulterior motive. Come on

I only go by what the Scottish Government tells me.

If you think the Scottish Government figures are wrong then feel free to explain how and what the correct figures are.

It's not out of the goodness of their heart, it's the way the UK works.

If the figures are wrong or inaccurate why do the SNP government publish them year after year.

[Ozyhibby]

Do you genuinely believe Westminster would give Scotland back more
Then it generates out the goodness of their heart without any ulterior motive. Come on

The extra money comes from the higher rates of tax paid by the wealthy in Scotland.


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[Zambernardi1875]

The extra money comes from the higher rates of tax paid by the wealthy in Scotland.


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Without any digging, any links to articles any research himself he blindly believes what the Scottish government says because it suits his narrative.

[James310]

Without any digging, any links to articles any research himself he blindly believes what the Scottish government says because it suits his narrative.

So are you saying the Scottish Government are publishing figures they know to be wrong? Big news if true.

What are the real figures then?

[degenerated]

Which part?

The majority, run by Mark and Mary Devlin are most definitely British nationalists. They ran a crowd fund receiving £5700 from 152 donations to put up the billboards.

James Naughtie is real. He does a show on the wireless.

So again...which part was made up?They have British nationalist, racist and sectarian bigot David Griffiths involved with them too.

Devlin is a bit of a grifter into the bargain from what I've read

https://twitter.com/gavmacn/status/1368203843373330432?t=YcPKRJs8jrNHx-SmVpFDDQ&s=19

2646526466

[archie]

Without any digging, any links to articles any research himself he blindly believes what the Scottish government says because it suits his narrative.Do you seriously believe that the Scottish Government is lying about this?

[James310]

The extra money comes from the higher rates of tax paid by the wealthy in Scotland.


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The fiscal transfer is in the billions, the tax rises don't cover that or touch the surface.

I see we are back to saying GERs is a load of rubbish again. I will make a prediction and I bet the next set of GERs will have people going how they make the case for Independence as the significantly increased oil revenues will be weaved through this time.

Come August all the people saying GERs is nonsense will suddenly be a fan.

[Zambernardi1875]

So are you saying the Scottish Government are publishing figures they know to be wrong? Big news if true.

What are the real figures then?

That’s not my point,

like the Celtic fans who email 120 other FA asking about VAR, find out where the ref who didn’t give them a penalty gran went to school, youre on here 24/7 day after day searching through SNP bins, catch and riffle through Nicolas jobbies just to get any shred of info to hopefully justify you’re point.

But Scottish gov put up figures you agree with. Bosh, feet up, yip that’s true.

Funny folk

[archie]

That’s not my point,

like the Celtic fans who email 120 other FA asking about VAR, find out where the ref who didn’t give them a penalty gran went to school, youre on here 24/7 day after day searching through SNP bins, catch and riffle through Nicolas jobbies just to get any shred of info to hopefully justify you’re point.

But Scottish gov put up figures you agree with. Bosh, feet up, yip that’s true.

Funny folk

I know things have been a bit febrile here lately, but I'm stuggling with this one.

[James310]

That’s not my point,

like the Celtic fans who email 120 other FA asking about VAR, find out where the ref who didn’t give them a penalty gran went to school, youre on here 24/7 day after day searching through SNP bins, catch and riffle through Nicolas jobbies just to get any shred of info to hopefully justify you’re point.

But Scottish gov put up figures you agree with. Bosh, feet up, yip that’s true.

Funny folk

Let's stick to the topic shall we?

So if you think they are wrong what's the correct figures?

You are implying they are wrong but you can't say how or why.

As a reminder:

The decision to publish the GERS report is the Scottish Government's alone.

GERS is compiled by the Scottish Government's own team of statisticians and economists (in St Andrew's House, Edinburgh) using methodologies and assumptions they have chosen following years of extensive consultation

GERS is an accredited National Statistics publication and carries the quality mark to prove it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Let's stick to the topic shall we?

So if you think they are wrong what's the correct figures?

You are implying they are wrong but you can't say how or why.

As a reminder:

The decision to publish the GERS report is the Scottish Government's alone.

GERS is compiled by the Scottish Government's own team of statisticians and economists (in St Andrew's House, Edinburgh) using methodologies and assumptions they have chosen following years of extensive consultation

GERS is an accredited National Statistics publication and carries the quality mark to prove it.


GERS comes with the caveat that they are the fiscal situation while Scotland is under the rule of a Westminster Government, not a projection of where an independent Scotland would be.

[Berwickhibby]

GERS comes with the caveat that they are the fiscal situation while Scotland is under the rule of a Westminster Government, not a projection of where an independent Scotland would be.

Did Salmond and one of his economists suggest that Scotland would only need £200m to set up an independent Scotland 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 some projection

[Ozyhibby]

GERS comes with the caveat that they are the fiscal situation while Scotland is under the rule of a Westminster Government, not a projection of where an independent Scotland would be.

GERS also relies on UK govt figures on spending they do on behalf of Scotland.

Like this:-
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230214/e3321ef482295a410eb9ed4753854f78.jpg
Lucky us.[emoji106]


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[James310]

GERS comes with the caveat that they are the fiscal situation while Scotland is under the rule of a Westminster Government, not a projection of where an independent Scotland would be.

You have to start somewhere though. The below from the Fraser of Allander Institute is a reasonable summary.

What does this tell us about independence?

Setting aside the noise that will no doubt accompany GERS today, there are essentially two key issues, that need to be considered together.

GERS takes the current constitutional settlement as given. If the very purpose of independence is to take different choices about the type of economy and society that we live in, then it is possible that these a set of accounts based upon the world today could look different, over the long term, in an independent Scotland.

That said, GERS does provide an accurate picture of where Scotland is in 2022. In doing so it sets the starting point for a discussion about the immediate choices, opportunities and challenges that need to be addressed by those advocating new fiscal arrangements. And here the challenge is stark, with a likely deficit far in excess of the UK as a whole, other comparable countries or that which is deemed to be sustainable in the long-term. It is not enough to say ‘everything will be fine’ or ‘look at this country, they can run a sensible fiscal balance so why can’t Scotland?’. Concrete proposals and ideas are needed."

[TrumpIsAPeado]

I only go by what the Scottish Government tells me.

If you think the Scottish Government figures are wrong then feel free to explain how and what the correct figures are.

It's not out of the goodness of their heart, it's the way the UK works.

If the figures are wrong or inaccurate why do the SNP government publish them year after year.

If you're referring to the GERS figures, those figures are generated from a methodology report. The figures are based on economic assumptions as the UK Government does not supply the Scottish Government with the necessary figures in order to generate an accurate report.

The reason the Scottish Government publishes GERS every year is because it's the only thing they can publish. There are no alternative methods without accurate figures to work with.

But i'm pretty certain that you already know all of this.

[James310]

If you're referring to the GERS figures, those figures are generated from a methodology report. The figures are based on economic assumptions as the UK Government does not supply the Scottish Government with the necessary figures in order to generate an accurate report.

The reason the Scottish Government publishes GERS every year is because it's the only thing they can publish. There are no alternative methods without accurate figures to work with.

But i'm pretty certain that you already know all of this.

Here again from the Fraser of Allander Institute:

And please guys… dodge the myths!

We have produced a detailed guide to GERS which goes through the background of the publication and all of the main issues around its production, including some of the odd theories that emerge around it. A couple of years ago, we also produced a podcast which you can enjoy at your leisure.

In summary though, to go through the main claims usually made about GERS:

GERS is an accredited National Statistics produced by statisticians in the Scottish Government (so is not produced by the UK Government) and is a serious attempt to understand the key fiscal facts under the current constitutional arrangement.

Some people look to discredit the veracity of GERS because it relies – in part – on estimation. Estimation is a part of all economic statistics and is not a reason to dismiss the figures as “made up”.
Will the numbers change if you make different reasonable assumptions about the bits of GERS that are estimated? In short, not to any great extent.

As for alternative figures what happened to this?

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18161170.derek-mackay-launch-pro-independence-gers-report-alternative/

[archie]

If you're referring to the GERS figures, those figures are generated from a methodology report. The figures are based on economic assumptions as the UK Government does not supply the Scottish Government with the necessary figures in order to generate an accurate report.

The reason the Scottish Government publishes GERS every year is because it's the only thing they can publish. There are no alternative methods without accurate figures to work with.

But i'm pretty certain that you already know all of this.

Are you sure about that? I'd be very surprised if Scottish Government statisticians signed off on such a flawed process

[James310]

Are you sure about that? I'd be very surprised if Scottish Government statisticians signed off on such a flawed process

It's a strategy to deflect from the economic facts.

There is no way the Scottish Government would publish figures they knew to be wrong that would allow their political opponents to attack them with, it makes no sense.

There are plenty of quotes from Senior SNP figures telling us GERs is the gold standard and make the case for Independence etc.

The whole 2014 White Paper written by the SNP was based on GERs!

[archie]

GERS comes with the caveat that they are the fiscal situation while Scotland is under the rule of a Westminster Government, not a projection of where an independent Scotland would be.

Oddly phrased, but the general point is absolutely true. We can't know what choices (good or bad) a future Scottish Government might make. We can't know what economic shocks might happen in the future. But the idea that they tell us nothing is ridiculous. It's like starting a journey. Knowing where you are at the start doesn't tell you where you will end up. But it shows what you need to do to get there.

[grunt]

Oddly phrased, but the general point is absolutely true. We can't know what choices (good or bad) a future Scottish Government might make. We can't know what economic shocks might happen in the future. But the idea that they tell us nothing is ridiculous. It's like starting a journey. Knowing where you are at the start doesn't tell you where you will end up. But it shows what you need to do to get there.
But we only have a vague knowledge of where we are. The GERS website explains the level of estimation that goes into the figures. Depending on your viewpoint, you'll either decide this is fine, or you'll treat the figures with some wariness.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-gers-2021-22/


Revenue

Public sector revenue is estimated where a financial burden is imposed on residents and enterprises in Scotland.

In general, the way in which revenue is collected means that separate figures for each country and region of the UK are not available for most revenues, although following increased devolution in recent years, more Scottish data have become available. As a result, Scottish public sector revenue is estimated by considering each revenue stream separately. Where Scottish data are unavailable, GERS estimates revenue using a set of apportionment methodologies, refined over a number of years following consultation with and feedback from users. The methodology note on the GERS website provides a detailed discussion of the methodologies and datasets used.

Expenditure

Public sector expenditure is estimated on the basis of spending incurred to provide services for residents of Scotland. That is, a particular public sector expenditure is apportioned to a region if the outcome of the expenditure is thought to provide a public service which benefits residents of that region.

This is a different measure from total public expenditure in Scotland. For most expenditure, spending for or in Scotland will be similar. For example, the vast majority of health expenditure by NHS Scotland occurs in Scotland and is for patients resident in Scotland. Therefore, the in and forapproaches should yield virtually identical assessments of expenditure. However, for expenditure where the service provided is more collective in nature, such as defence, an assessment of 'who the service is for' depends upon the nature of the specific type of expenditure being assessed. Where there are differences between the for and in approaches, GERS estimates Scottish expenditure using a set of apportionment methodologies, refined over a number of years following consultation with and feedback from users.

The for approach considers the location of the recipients of services or transfers that public sector expenditure finances, irrespective of where the expenditure takes place. For example, with respect to defence expenditure, as the service provided is a national 'public good', the for methodology operates on the premise that the entire UK population benefits from the provision of a national defence service. Accordingly, under the for methodology, national defence expenditure is apportioned across the UK on a population basis.

Estimates of spending in Scotland are used in some Scottish Government publications, such as the Quarterly National Accounts. However, these do not provide a complete measure of spending, as some types of spending, such as welfare spending, are not reported. The Scottish Government is currently reviewing the potential to provide users with estimates of spending in Scotland, and information on how this would differ from spending for Scotland.

[Stairway 2 7]

Needs to get sorted pronto. Scotland will now be the only place allowing forced pre payment metres

In Scotland alone, there were 32,000 forced entry warrant requests from energy companies in 2022

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scotland-still-allows-force-fitting-of-prepayment-meters-ljg3nmh3s

[TrumpIsAPeado]

Here again from the Fraser of Allander Institute:

And please guys… dodge the myths!

We have produced a detailed guide to GERS which goes through the background of the publication and all of the main issues around its production, including some of the odd theories that emerge around it. A couple of years ago, we also produced a podcast which you can enjoy at your leisure.

In summary though, to go through the main claims usually made about GERS:

GERS is an accredited National Statistics produced by statisticians in the Scottish Government (so is not produced by the UK Government) and is a serious attempt to understand the key fiscal facts under the current constitutional arrangement.

Some people look to discredit the veracity of GERS because it relies – in part – on estimation. Estimation is a part of all economic statistics and is not a reason to dismiss the figures as “made up”.
Will the numbers change if you make different reasonable assumptions about the bits of GERS that are estimated? In short, not to any great extent.

As for alternative figures what happened to this?

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18161170.derek-mackay-launch-pro-independence-gers-report-alternative/

I never said it was produced by the UK Government. So I'm not sure why you're quoting my post with such a response.

The statisticians who generate the report do so using various methodologies, not true economic figures.

[Ozyhibby]

Needs to get sorted pronto. Scotland will now be the only place allowing forced pre payment metres

In Scotland alone, there were 32,000 forced entry warrant requests from energy companies in 2022

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/scotland-still-allows-force-fitting-of-prepayment-meters-ljg3nmh3s

Is this the correct thread? There are lots of things need sorted regarding pre payment meters, especially the fact that they are charged premium prices.
Not sure, but is it a devolved issue?


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

Are you sure about that? I'd be very surprised if Scottish Government statisticians signed off on such a flawed process

Why? It was the only process that was made available. It was either GERS (based on methodologies), or nothing at all. There were no other options.

[degenerated]

Is this the correct thread? There are lots of things need sorted regarding pre payment meters, especially the fact that they are charged premium prices.
Not sure, but is it a devolved issue?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDon't think it is within the scope of Scottish Government

https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https://inews.co.uk/news/prepayment-meters-grant-shapps-wales-scotland-nicola-sturgeon-2109915?ico=in-line_link

[Stairway 2 7]

Is this the correct thread? There are lots of things need sorted regarding pre payment meters, especially the fact that they are charged premium prices.
Not sure, but is it a devolved issue?


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It's not devolved but labour are asking Scottish government to ask the Scottish courts to change this. I'm not saying this is a criticism of either the government or courts tbh its the energy companies, but everyone needs to do as much as they can to change it quick

[James310]

I never said it was produced by the UK Government. So I'm not sure why you're quoting my post with such a response.

The statisticians who generate the report do so using various methodologies, not true economic figures.

All economic forecasts are done using estimates.

As it says though....

Some people look to discredit the veracity of GERS because it relies – in part – on estimation.

Estimation is a part of all economic statistics and is not a reason to dismiss the figures as “made up”.
Will the numbers change if you make different reasonable assumptions about the bits of GERS that are estimated? In short, not to any great extent.

[degenerated]

It's not devolved but labour are asking Scottish government to ask the Scottish courts to change this. I'm not saying this is a criticism of either the government or courts tbh its the energy companies, but everyone needs to do as much as they can to change it quickThe legislative powers around utility warrants are not devolved either. So I'm not sure what Labour think the Scottish government can do.

[Ozyhibby]

It's not devolved but labour are asking Scottish government to ask the Scottish courts to change this. I'm not saying this is a criticism of either the government or courts tbh its the energy companies, but everyone needs to do as much as they can to change it quick

Surely the courts can only apply the law?


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[TrumpIsAPeado]

All economic forecasts are done using estimates.

As it says though....

Some people look to discredit the veracity of GERS because it relies – in part – on estimation.

Estimation is a part of all economic statistics and is not a reason to dismiss the figures as “made up”.
Will the numbers change if you make different reasonable assumptions about the bits of GERS that are estimated? In short, not to any great extent.

You're quite right. That is indeed "short". It conveniently ignores the many nuances that make up the entirety of the report. Regardless of how you personally view GERS, there's no denying that there are better alternatives that the UK Government could make available for the Scottish Government to base their economic forecasts on. But for some reason, the UK Government isn't interested in providing better alternatives. It's almost as if the vague nature of GERS suits them somehow.

[archie]

Why? It was the only process that was made available. It was either GERS (based on methodologies), or nothing at all. There were no other options.
But the Scottish Government chooses to publish it. When Scottish Ministers called GERS the gold standard were they wrong?

[archie]

You're quite right. That is indeed "short". It conveniently ignores the many nuances that make up the entirety of the report. Regardless of how you personally view GERS, there's no denying that there are better alternatives that the UK Government could make available for the Scottish Government to base their economic forecasts on. But for some reason, the UK Government isn't interested in providing better alternatives. It's almost as if the vague nature of GERS suits them somehow.
What are these alternatives?

[James310]

You're quite right. That is indeed "short". It conveniently ignores the many nuances that make up the entirety of the report. Regardless of how you personally view GERS, there's no denying that there are better alternatives that the UK Government could make available for the Scottish Government to base their economic forecasts on. But for some reason, the UK Government isn't interested in providing better alternatives. It's almost as if the vague nature of GERS suits them somehow.

Has the Scottish Government asked for these alternative? What are they?

It puzzles me why so many SNP politicians are praising GERs then and why they would base something as fundamental such as the 2014 White Paper and the Growth Commission papers on GERs if they believed there was better alternatives out there.

It's almost as if the GERs are positive they are to believed and if not so positive then they are not valid or relevant. Weird eh!

[archie]

I never said it was produced by the UK Government. So I'm not sure why you're quoting my post with such a response.

The statisticians who generate the report do so using various methodologies, not true economic figures.
What do you mean by 'true economic figures'?

[Stairway 2 7]

Surely the courts can only apply the law?


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Not really the Lord Justice put a halt to them in England and Wales after pressure. There's a campaign for the Scottish courts to do the same. Scot gov say they won't tell the courts what to do. This is the first time in a while they won't put their opinions to the court

[grunt]

Will the numbers change if you make different reasonable assumptions about the bits of GERS that are estimated? In short, not to any great extent.
How can you possibly makes this assertion?

[archie]

But we only have a vague knowledge of where we are. The GERS website explains the level of estimation that goes into the figures. Depending on your viewpoint, you'll either decide this is fine, or you'll treat the figures with some wariness.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/government-expenditure-revenue-scotland-gers-2021-22/
Your presenting this as if it's a gotcha because of estimation. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with this approach. I think the vagueness you allude to is wildly overstated. I suppose my question to you is, if these were the gold standard that underpinned the 2014 White Paper, did you contest them then and what do you think has changed about them?

[archie]

How can you possibly makes this assertion?
It's the Fraser of Allender institute making the assertion.

[grunt]

Not really the Lord Justice put a halt to them in England and Wales after pressure. There's a campaign for the Scottish courts to do the same. Scot gov say they won't tell the courts what to do. This is the first time in a while they won't put their opinions to the court
That seems to be an unnecessarily biased take on the situation. The SG takes issues to court for the court to decide. This case is significantly different, here the court has decided and the SG is not telling them what to do. Your usual clear thinking has deserted you here, I fear.

[James310]

How can you possibly makes this assertion?

I never, the Fraser of Allander Institute did.

I reckon they know a thing or two about these things.

[Stairway 2 7]

That seems to be an unnecessarily biased take on the situation. The SG takes issues to court for the court to decide. This case is significantly different, here the court has decided and the SG is not telling them what to do. Your usual clear thinking has deserted you here, I fear.

My last line probably unfair and I'm actually not blaming scot gov the blame is 100% down to energy companies and the Scottish courts, probably better in the energy thread but stuck here as its our courts inaction. It's not that our courts have made a decision, its they have chosen not to yet make the decision they have in England.

I do feel scot gov should be applied pressure to the Lord Justice, they may be are privately. I'm sure the decision will come due to pressure, helped by Mercedes Villalba today

[Ozyhibby]

My last line probably unfair and I'm actually not blaming scot gov the blame is 100% down to energy companies and the Scottish courts, probably better in the energy thread but stuck here as its our courts inaction. It's not that our courts have made a decision, its they have chosen not to yet make the decision they have in England.

I do feel scot gov should be applied pressure to the Lord Justice, they may be are privately. I'm sure the decision will come due to pressure, helped by Mercedes Villalba today

Let’s be clear, this is a reserved matter and the only real power to deal with this is in London. The SG have asked Grant Shapps to change law. So far there has been no reply.
If the UK govt wants to devolve this then I’m sure it will be dealt with promptly.
And also let’s be clear that the issue is not solved in England and Wales, the have merely paused new forced installs. That does not solve the issue for those already installed.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Let’s be clear, this is a reserved matter and the only real power to deal with this is in London. The SG have asked Grant Shapps to change law. So far there has been no reply.
If the UK govt wants to devolve this then I’m sure it will be dealt with promptly.
And also let’s be clear that the issue is not solved in England and Wales, the have merely paused new forced installs. That does not solve the issue for those already installed.


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This can be stopped today in Edinburgh if the court choses to, as has been seen in England and Wales. I doesn't solve prepaid metres that have already been installed but that's unlikely I've never heard a party mention wanting that. There will be 90 forced prepay metres put in in Scotland today and none in England. Westminster aren't going to do anything but the Scottish courts can today

[grunt]

It's the Fraser of Allender institute making the assertion.


I never, the Fraser of Allander Institute did.Ok, I guess they should know. It is of course in their interest to talk up the accuracy of such forecasts. After all, it is how they make their money. So they're hardly likely to say anything different.

There's still a huge amount of expenditure that is allocated to us that we might not in future choose to spend.

[grunt]

This can be stopped today in Edinburgh if the court choses to, as has been seen in England and Wales.
So why aren't they? Is this another unionist ploy to make SG look bad? :wink:

[Stairway 2 7]

So why aren't they? Is this another unionist ploy to make SG look bad? :wink:

I don't think it makes sg look bad more the energy companies and the courts. For the reason they aren't stopping it god knows, it will never affect people like them I suppose

[grunt]

Back on topic I saw this quote this morning and thought it was interesting:


Scotland is trying to decide the merits of moving home. But we debate the probable costs of the removals van instead.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think it makes sg look bad more the energy companies and the courts. For the reason they aren't stopping it god knows, it will never affect people like them I suppose

It’s a political issue. The courts are not there to decide policy. They are there to administer the law.
I’m not comfortable with the SG putting pressure on the judiciary. That’s a slippery slope.
To really stop this requires the law to be changed.


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[Stairway 2 7]

It’s a political issue. The courts are not there to decide policy. They are there to administer the law.
I’m not comfortable with the SG putting pressure on the judiciary. That’s a slippery slope.
To really stop this requires the law to be changed.


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What's your explanation for English courts putting the ban, are they not administering the law and being political. I agree this needs political change but that's not coming any time soon with that government in charge. We're not wanting Scottish courts to choose to do anything that England hasn't already done. I'm sure they will pretty soon so it's no really worth half of these posts

[marinello59]

So why aren't they? Is this another unionist ploy to make SG look bad? :wink:

This is being pushed hard by Mercedes Villalba, a committed socialist who genuinely puts people first. MSPs from all parties would do well to learn from her what politics is really all about.
She is right to keep the pressure on the Scottish Government, where there is a will there is a way.

[Ozyhibby]

What's your explanation for English courts putting the ban, are they not administering the law and being political. I agree this needs political change but that's not coming any time soon with that government in charge. We're not wanting Scottish courts to choose to do anything that England hasn't already done. I'm sure they will pretty soon so it's no really worth half of these posts

It might happen like you say. Just don’t think SG can get involved. They can’t be telling the courts which UK laws they want them to ignore. Tempting though that might be.


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[He's here!]

Which part?

The majority, run by Mark and Mary Devlin are most definitely British nationalists. They ran a crowd fund receiving £5700 from 152 donations to put up the billboards.

James Naughtie is real. He does a show on the wireless.

So again...which part was made up?

'British nationalists' as in members of the BNP? That's the obvious association most would make re such terminology. Ditto reference to 'the Scottish nationalists' being members of the SNP. Or are they, like the vast majority of no voters, simply members of the Scottish electorate who aren't interested in independence and are fed up with Sturgeon?

[James310]

'British nationalists' as in members of the BNP? That's the obvious association most would make re such terminology. Ditto reference to 'the Scottish nationalists' being members of the SNP. Or are they, like the vast majority of no voters, simply members of the Scottish electorate who aren't interested in independence and are fed up with Sturgeon?

I don't think you will get a reply to that one....

[Ozyhibby]

'British nationalists' as in members of the BNP? That's the obvious association most would make re such terminology. Ditto reference to 'the Scottish nationalists' being members of the SNP. Or are they, like the vast majority of no voters, simply members of the Scottish electorate who aren't interested in independence and are fed up with Sturgeon?

Do you need to be a member of the SNP to be a Scottish nationalist?


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[J-C]

Do you need to be a member of the SNP to be a Scottish nationalist?


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Probably better to call them unionists seeing as they want to preserve the union that exists.

[grunt]

This is being pushed hard by Mercedes Villalba, a committed socialist who genuinely puts people first. MSPs from all parties would do well to learn from her what politics is really all about.
She is right to keep the pressure on the Scottish Government, where there is a will there is a way.My post was a (poor) joke.

But you say she is pressurising the SG, when I thought it was the Scottish Courts that were refusing to move? Genuine question, I don't understand who is stopping this from happening in Scotland.

[Moulin Yarns]

Do you need to be a member of the SNP to be a Scottish nationalist?


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I've said before, I'm not a member of the SNP but I identify as a Scottish Internationalist. In other words I am outwards looking to our continental neighbours rather than inward looking, like a British national who believed in Brexit.

[James310]

I've said before, I'm not a member of the SNP but I identify as a Scottish Internationalist. In other words I am outwards looking to our continental neighbours rather than inward looking, like a British national who believed in Brexit.

Is leaving a Union and your largest trading partners inward or outward looking?

[grunt]

'British nationalists' as in members of the BNP? That's the obvious association most would make re such terminology. Ditto reference to 'the Scottish nationalists' being members of the SNP. Or are they, like the vast majority of no voters, simply members of the Scottish electorate who aren't interested in independence and are fed up with Sturgeon?Not the BNP, but David Griffiths was a candidate for George Galloway's Alliance for Unity party. He is a former director of a Rangers fan organisation (surprise!) and generally seems a nice chap.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/candidate-george-galloways-party-linked-22599669

[grunt]

Is leaving a Union and your largest trading partners inward or outward looking?Really?? I can't believe after all these years posting on this topic you're coming out with this guff.

In answer to your question, the SNP and people voting for Scottish independence are outward looking. As you well know.

[James310]

Really?? I can't believe after all these years posting on this topic you're coming out with this guff.

In answer to your question, the SNP and people voting for Scottish independence are outward looking. As you well know.

Thanks for telling me what I know and think....

I would of course respectfully disagree, most types of nationalism are inward looking. As always it's all about opinions and at the moment the majority of people agree with me and are rejecting Independence.

[Kato]

'British nationalists' as in members of the BNP? That's the obvious association most would make re such terminology. Ditto reference to 'the Scottish nationalists' being members of the SNP. Or are they, like the vast majority of no voters, simply members of the Scottish electorate who aren't interested in independence and are fed up with Sturgeon?What a strange post.

You don't have to be a member of anything to be either a British nationalist or Scottish nationalist.

Your "obvious association most would make" is on your head.

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[grunt]

I would of course respectfully disagree, most types of nationalism are inward looking. As always it's all about opinions and at the moment the majority of people agree with me and are rejecting Independence.Which party wants to close our borders? Which party wants to stop inward immigration and send "illegal" immigrants back .... somewhere? Which party is developing plans to send migrants and refugees to a Central African country? Does the SNP want to do any of these things?

Tell me which is the outward looking party in the UK.

[Moulin Yarns]

Is leaving a Union and your largest trading partners inward or outward looking?

Whisky export record and salmon export the largest food export from the UK, all products of Scotland!!!!


The European Union is a better place for Scottish exporters!

[Moulin Yarns]

Thanks for telling me what I know and think....

I would of course respectfully disagree, most types of nationalism are inward looking. As always it's all about opinions and at the moment the majority of people agree with me and are rejecting Independence.

Which is why I identify myself as an internationalist!!

[He's here!]

I've said before, I'm not a member of the SNP but I identify as a Scottish Internationalist. In other words I am outwards looking to our continental neighbours rather than inward looking, like a British national who believed in Brexit.

A 'Scottish internationalist'? Puts me in mind of those who've represented Scotland at sport.

[He's here!]

What a strange post.

You don't have to be a member of anything to be either a British nationalist or Scottish nationalist.

Your "obvious association most would make" is on your head.

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As in on your head be it?

I think most would make that association. No voters have never been commonly referred to as British nationalists.

[Ozyhibby]

As in on your head be it?

I think most would make that association. No voters have never been commonly referred to as British nationalists.

I think the popularity of British nationalism among political leaders at Westminster have made it more common. Constantly draping yourself in the union flag will do that.


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[James310]

I think the popularity of British nationalism among political leaders at Westminster have made it more common. Constantly draping yourself in the union flag will do that.


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Have you seen the Independence marches of the last 5 years? You can't see the people from the flags. Admittedly not these days as the numbers are so low.

You can't eat a flag!

[danhibees1875]

Whisky export record and salmon export the largest food export from the UK, all products of Scotland!!!!


The European Union is a better place for Scottish exporters!

Scotland exports over 3 times more to rUK than it does to the EU.

Not quite sure how an EU sale is better than any other sale? :confused:

[Ozyhibby]

Scotland exports over 3 times more to rUK than it does to the EU.

Not quite sure how an EU sale is better than any other sale? :confused:

Is that physical exports or services?


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[danhibees1875]

Is that physical exports or services?


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Combined, I believe.

[grunt]

Scotland exports over 3 times more to rUK than it does to the EU.

And we'll continue to export to rUK after independence.

[Ozyhibby]

Combined, I believe.

Because it’s only physical exports that are affected by the Brexit deal and I’m sure I read we export more elsewhere than to the uk when it comes to physical exports.


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[Moulin Yarns]

A 'Scottish internationalist'? Puts me in mind of those who've represented Scotland at sport.

I'm sure Doddie Weir's family will love your sentiment!!! 🙄

Read my previous post which explains exactly what I feel and stop being an excuse for the tories!

[archie]

I'm sure Doddie Weir's family will love your sentiment!!! 🙄

Read my previous post which explains exactly what I feel and stop being an excuse for the tories!

I'm glad you edited it. Not sure it's much better though.

[danhibees1875]

And we'll continue to export to rUK after independence.

Here was me thinking that Brexit was meant to have been bad for business. It's the same situation - just on a larger scale (well, relatively). :dunno:

[James310]

I'm sure Doddie Weir's family will love your sentiment!!! 🙄

Read my previous post which explains exactly what I feel and stop being an excuse for the tories!

What's this got to do with a man who tragically died.of MND?

[grunt]

Because it’s only physical exports that are affected by the Brexit deal and I’m sure I read we export more elsewhere than to the uk when it comes to physical exports.
That's really not quite correct is it? The lack of freedom of movement and potential regulatory change are having a significant impact on services. Why do you think all those bankers moved to Frankfurt?

[James310]

Here was me thinking that Brexit was meant to have been bad for business. It's the same situation - just on a larger scale (well, relatively). :dunno:

The Brexiteers used to say of course we will still export to the EU. Not sure it worked out how they planned.

[grunt]

Here was me thinking that Brexit was meant to have been bad for business. It's the same situation - just on a larger scale (well, relatively). :dunno:
It has been bad for business. Very bad. But that comes down to the deal agreed - which in the case of Brexit is a bad deal for the UK. We'll agree something better.

[danhibees1875]

Because it’s only physical exports that are affected by the Brexit deal and I’m sure I read we export more elsewhere than to the uk when it comes to physical exports.


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I'd be surprised if that was true, but you never know!

If services shouldn't be included it would probably at least reduce the "3x greater" figure I quoted though.

Were services unaffected by Brexit though?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/30/brexit-uk-exports-fall-eu-goods-services

[danhibees1875]

It has been bad for business. Very bad. But that comes down to the deal agreed - which in the case of Brexit is a bad deal for the UK. We'll agree something better.

Are you saying that EU businesses have good deals when dealing with the UK?

I'd have thought the consequences would have been the same both ways. :dunno:

[James310]

We'll agree something better.

How is that, because Scottish Government officials like Lorna Slater and Patrick Harvie are more competent?

[HNA12]

Let’s clarify something .
No terms are specifically banned here. However if you use a blanket term simply to antagonise those who oppose you , that’s not debate. If you do it after the Admin team has asked you not to then we will delete the post. If you have done it after a previous warning you will find yourselves in the sin bin for a week or so. This applies equally to posters of all political persuasions and any action taken is discussed by the entire team. It’s not an exact science but it is fairly obvious when someone is at it.
We’ve said it often enough, we are getting heartily sick of having to waste our time dealing with this place and the nasty wee digs at us on here or by PM that some think are acceptable. We are football fans not political adjudicators.

[grunt]

Are you saying that EU businesses have good deals when dealing with the UK?
No I'm not saying that.


I'd have thought the consequences would have been the same both ways. :dunno:EU businesses have 26 other countries they can very easily do business with, so it's far easier for them to make up any deficit. The EU is a huge market for the UK. The UK is a relatively small market for the EU.

[Ozyhibby]

Are you saying that EU businesses have good deals when dealing with the UK?

I'd have thought the consequences would have been the same both ways. :dunno:

Actually they do have a better deal because we have not implemented any of the checks on goods coming into the UK, where as the EU has.


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[He's here!]

I'm sure Doddie Weir's family will love your sentiment!!! 🙄

Read my previous post which explains exactly what I feel and stop being an excuse for the tories!

I read your post but I've never heard of anyone refer to themselves as a Scottish internationalist in that context before. If I heard someone described as that my initial assumption would be they'd played for Scotland at international level, as would most people.

[Mibbes Aye]

I read your post but I've never heard of anyone refer to themselves as a Scottish internationalist in that context before. If I heard someone described as that my initial assumption would be they'd played for Scotland at international level, as would most people.

I'm familiar with the term 'internationalist'. It's a well-established term in socialist theory to describe a view that seeks to rise above the narrow inward perspective of nationalism. In fact, classical Marxism goes as far as to dismiss nationalism as a 'bourgeoisie phenomenon'

Possiby one of the best-known internationalists was Albert Einstein - he described nationalism as "an infantile disease, the measles of the mind".

So in that respect, 'Scottish internationalist' does dound a bit contradictory.

[Smartie]

I'm familiar with the term 'internationalist'. It's a well-established term in socialist theory to describe a view that seeks to rise above the narrow inward perspective of nationalism. In fact, classical Marxism goes as far as to dismiss nationalism as a 'bourgeoisis phenomenon'

Possiby one of the best-known internationalists was Albert Einstein - he described nationalism as "an infantile disease, the measles of the mind".

So in that respect, 'Scottish internationalist' does dound a bit contradictory.

I mean, everyone wants to believe that they’re the goodies and have virtue and the intelligentsia on their side but it’s nuanced enough that I can understand why some may be attracted to the idea of Scottish independence as being a way to repair relationships with a large number of European neighbours rather than be tethered to a relationship with a dying empire that’s hell bent on isolating and making life as difficult as possible for itself.

If you are truly an “internationalist” then where can you stand on the binary question of Scottish independence?

It’s a shame the debate has ended up where it has in recent years as I still find there are people I agree with pretty much every step of the way until the last moment when they end up jumping onto the other side of the fence.

[The Tubs]

I'm familiar with the term 'internationalist'. It's a well-established term in socialist theory to describe a view that seeks to rise above the narrow inward perspective of nationalism. In fact, classical Marxism goes as far as to dismiss nationalism as a 'bourgeoisie phenomenon'

Possiby one of the best-known internationalists was Albert Einstein - he described nationalism as "an infantile disease, the measles of the mind".

So in that respect, 'Scottish internationalist' does dound a bit contradictory.

Everyone is from somewhere. Place defines the outlook of the vast majority of individuals on this planet. It probably always has, even going back to hunter-gatherers.

[Kato]

I'm familiar with the term 'internationalist'. It's a well-established term in socialist theory to describe a view that seeks to rise above the narrow inward perspective of nationalism. In fact, classical Marxism goes as far as to dismiss nationalism as a 'bourgeouis phenomenon'

Possiby one of the best-known internationalists was Albert Einstein - he described nationalism as "an infantile disease, the measles of the mind".

So in that respect, 'Scottish internationalist' does dound a bit contradictory.Would you agree that there are degrees of nationalism?

I would use the term "British Nationalist" to describe a particular set of people (none of whom I believe post on here) who have extreme views. The correct term should maybe be "British Far Right", you never hear "French Nationalist" or "German Nationalist" its nearly always with the suffix "Far Right".

If the SNP were called the "Scottish Indepence Party" they would sound a bit more benign but given some of their roots were most definitely in the more sinister version of "Nationalist" they seem stuck with it.

It has given rise to a weird juxtaposition given their use of the word next to their wishes to create a country which is outward looking, wants to create close relationships with their neighbours and is in favour of welcoming foreigners as opposed to the UK version of hating on the "papes"/EU/French/refugees/anybody the redtops tell them to/the "woke"/minorities of most sorts.

The attempt to equate to two versions as anything like resembling each is pretty weak, no?

Einstein could be a right prick, btw. But he lived in different times.

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[Mibbes Aye]

Everyone is from somewhere. Place defines the outlook of the vast majority of individuals on this planet. It probably always has, even going back to hunter-gatherers.

I partly agree but i would say that it is not place that defines, it is the idea of place. That's why this thread is currently the most popular in this part of the forum - because that idea is contested.

Your hunter-gtherers defined their place as their own shelter, and over centuries and centuries that evolved. The idea of Scotland as expressed by the majority of nationalists on here is a remarkably new construct in the grand scheme of things. And how association with that place is defined is also contested - we have posters on here who are vehemently pro-independence but live in another country. We have many people born in other countries who live and work in Scotland, some who are for, some who are against independence. What is their idea of place.

And place is only one small part of an identity. For the majority f my life Hibs have not been the football club I lived nearest to, but I support them. I've not lived in Edinburgh for years but when people ask me where I'm from I feel compelled to add '...but originally I'm from Edinburgh' onto the end of my response.

Hundreds upon hundreds of millions of people identify themselves according to a faith, far more than those who live in the same post code as st Peter's Square or Mecca.

I think you get all this - place, or the dea of place is only one way of defining ourselves. And it has inherent contradictions, even at just an individual level.

[Kato]

A conversation with a pal on identity politics and how restrictive it can be sticks with me. For example I don't know one person who identifies solely as one facet of their personage, its always far more complex.

We listed the top five aspects which we associated ourselves with.

Mine: would define myself as.

1 coming from Edinburgh
2 being a Hibby
3 being involved in an artistic community ( in both our cases we worked and socialised with people, of many nationalities, in house music.)
4 being of the left
5 Scottish

His first 3 were the same as me except he put house music first ( deeper in than me, his fourth was being of Pakistani descent and his fifth was being Scottish.

The current version of identity politics likes to blunt nuance in identities as it easier to polarise people. Shouldn't wash with anyone. Yer nationality is just a product of political and legal constructs, its not actually you.

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[Skol]

Would you agree that there are degrees of nationalism?

I would use the term "British Nationalist" to describe a particular set of people (none of whom I believe post on here) who have extreme views. The correct term should maybe be "British Far Right", you never hear "French Nationalist" or "German Nationalist" its nearly always with the suffix "Far Right".

If the SNP were called the "Scottish Indepence Party" they would sound a bit more benign but given some of their roots were most definitely in the more sinister version of "Nationalist" they seem stuck with it.

It has given rise to a weird juxtaposition given their use of the word next to their wishes to create a country which is outward looking, wants to create close relationships with their neighbours and is in favour of welcoming foreigners as opposed to the UK version of hating on the "papes"/EU/French/refugees/anybody the redtops tell them to/the "woke"/minorities of most sorts.

The attempt to equate to two versions as anything like resembling each is pretty weak, no?

Einstein could be a right prick, btw. But he lived in different times.

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Good post

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm glad I started a different conversation on this thread after the ****storm that it's been for ages.

I consider myself to be scottish, but I'm waiting for the results of my 23 and me dna analysis 😁


Born in Haddington, brought up in Edinburgh, of Fife born parents, now living in Perthshire. Can't wait to find out I'm 90% British 🙄

[archie]

Well this thread has taken an interesting turn. Really thought provoking thread. It is a very complex area that, as Kato says, not that amenable to nuance. Funnily enough I was talking about this recently in relation to family friends of my parents. Their house was a celebration of Scottishness. Tartan carpets, Scottish music, pipe bands and so on. They were defined to me by their Scottishness, but also were total royalists, probably Tories ( we didn't discuss politics) and would be totally supportive of the Union. What's the point of this? Nothing really, beyond that it is messy and complicated to unpack, and the way that the debate is often framed doesn't give the space for that complexity.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well this thread has taken an interesting turn. Really thought provoking thread. It is a very complex area that, as Kato says, not that amenable to nuance. Funnily enough I was talking about this recently in relation to family friends of my parents. Their house was a celebration of Scottishness. Tartan carpets, Scottish music, pipe bands and so on. They were defined to me by their Scottishness, but also were total royalists, probably Tories ( we didn't discuss politics) and would be totally supportive of the Union. What's the point of this? Nothing really, beyond that it is messy and complicated to unpack, and the way that the debate is often framed doesn't give the space for that complexity.

Interestingly, I have relatives from Essex and Yorkshire, and I can't find any common ground with them, but when I talk to people locally who work in landscaping or hospitality who are Eastern European it's like we can get a lot of things that are in common. In a way that's what I meant by being international, we have more in common than we have with people in England that we are supposed to be closer to.

[Ozyhibby]

For me it’s not about being Scottish as such. More about governance. I could very easily be swayed by a proper level on devolution. The Indy part isn’t so much the important thing as the fact I prefer decisions to be made reasonably locally. The current system is leaving Scotland falling behind similar size countries in Europe. This could easily be fixed within the union with the right level of devolution but nobody is offering that. Gordon Brown’s recent review was a bit of an embarrassment and there already signs of dissent in Scottish Labour in how weak it was. If Labour were to come up with a proper offer then there are people who currently favour Indy who’s votes are there to be won. Unfortunately that offer isn’t there so I’ll stick with independence for now.


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[James310]

Interestingly, I have relatives from Essex and Yorkshire, and I can't find any common ground with them, but when I talk to people locally who work in landscaping or hospitality who are Eastern European it's like we can get a lot of things that are in common. In a way that's what I meant by being international, we have more in common than we have with people in England that we are supposed to be closer to.

You say "we" but you meant you. You can't speak for all Scottish people. I have lots in common with my English colleagues who I speak to on a daily basis. I also know a number of people from different countries and get on equally as well with them. Everyone will be different.

[archie]

Interestingly, I have relatives from Essex and Yorkshire, and I can't find any common ground with them, but when I talk to people locally who work in landscaping or hospitality who are Eastern European it's like we can get a lot of things that are in common. In a way that's what I meant by being international, we have more in common than we have with people in England that we are supposed to be closer to.

There's so many things at play here. I think that the danger of extrapolation of anecdotal evidence into a broader world view.

[Stairway 2 7]

Interestingly, I have relatives from Essex and Yorkshire, and I can't find any common ground with them, but when I talk to people locally who work in landscaping or hospitality who are Eastern European it's like we can get a lot of things that are in common. In a way that's what I meant by being international, we have more in common than we have with people in England that we are supposed to be closer to.
Generalisations are brutal patter. You'll find ****bags and great people from every colour or culture in the world. As someone says you need to see you rather than wee. Some of the best kindest people I know are from England and Gary mackay comes from Scotland so nothing is clear cut

[Stairway 2 7]

For me it’s not about being Scottish as such. More about governance. I could very easily be swayed by a proper level on devolution. The Indy part isn’t so much the important thing as the fact I prefer decisions to be made reasonably locally. The current system is leaving Scotland falling behind similar size countries in Europe. This could easily be fixed within the union with the right level of devolution but nobody is offering that. Gordon Brown’s recent review was a bit of an embarrassment and there already signs of dissent in Scottish Labour in how weak it was. If Labour were to come up with a proper offer then there are people who currently favour Indy who’s votes are there to be won. Unfortunately that offer isn’t there so I’ll stick with independence for now.


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I'm similar in some ways. I've voted snp for years and will do going forward for independence. Although I'm not arsed about nationality it's all nonsense.

I want independence because the majority of my life I'll be ruled by the tories and corrupt Westminster. Hollyrood lot have many problems but it's not the same world as Westminster

[Smartie]

I reckon independence could be killed, stone dead, by some proper political reform at Westminster.

Ditch FPTP, no more House of Lords and get a better representation of the diverse groups that exist all over the UK whether that is based on nationality, faith, social outlook or whatever.

What we currently have suits a very narrow group of people and it isn't healthy. They get away with it because of the system and the fact that the silent majority down South don't have a great grasp of who their friends and enemies really are.(I guess the same could be said of us in Scotland though as we bicker, split right down the middle with the constitutional question never really being answered definitively).


Although nobody really seems to want this change, it will never happen and therefore we look for alternatives.

[danhibees1875]

You say "we" but you meant you. You can't speak for all Scottish people. I have lots in common with my English colleagues who I speak to on a daily basis. I also know a number of people from different countries and get on equally as well with them. Everyone will be different.

I used to think that I had a strong shared world view with people up and down the UK due to shared experiences and comparable cultures and upbringing, the friendships and real world experiences I've acquired backed that view up... Until now, I see now that I was wrong because Moulin doesn't get on with someone in Essex. It's funny how the world works. :greengrin

[The Tubs]

Generalisations are brutal patter. You'll find ****bags and great people from every colour or culture in the world. As someone says you need to see you rather than wee. Some of the best kindest people I know are from England and Gary mackay comes from Scotland so nothing is clear cut

Stephen Hendry, Wallace Mercer, Craig Levein. I think we're onto something here.

[Moulin Yarns]

You say "we" but you meant you. You can't speak for all Scottish people. I have lots in common with my English colleagues who I speak to on a daily basis. I also know a number of people from different countries and get on equally as well with them. Everyone will be different.


See, there you go making assumptions, again!!

I said WE as in myself and the workers from Eastern Europe!!!

[The Tubs]

I partly agree but i would say that it is not place that defines, it is the idea of place. That's why this thread is currently the most popular in this part of the forum - because that idea is contested.

Your hunter-gtherers defined their place as their own shelter, and over centuries and centuries that evolved. The idea of Scotland as expressed by the majority of nationalists on here is a remarkably new construct in the grand scheme of things. And how association with that place is defined is also contested - we have posters on here who are vehemently pro-independence but live in another country. We have many people born in other countries who live and work in Scotland, some who are for, some who are against independence. What is their idea of place.

And place is only one small part of an identity. For the majority f my life Hibs have not been the football club I lived nearest to, but I support them. I've not lived in Edinburgh for years but when people ask me where I'm from I feel compelled to add '...but originally I'm from Edinburgh' onto the end of my response.

Hundreds upon hundreds of millions of people identify themselves according to a faith, far more than those who live in the same post code as st Peter's Square or Mecca.

I think you get all this - place, or the dea of place is only one way of defining ourselves. And it has inherent contradictions, even at just an individual level.

Text-based faith, nationality, poltical movements and football teams are all fairly recent inventions. I'd say place is a far more fundamental aspect of who we are.

[Moulin Yarns]

I used to think that I had a strong shared world view with people up and down the UK due to shared experiences and comparable cultures and upbringing, the friendships and real world experiences I've acquired backed that view up... Until now, I see now that I was wrong because Moulin doesn't get on with someone in Essex. It's funny how the world works. :greengrin

I didn't say I don't get on with them, I said I had less in common with them than someone from Eastern Europe!!

[Kato]

Personally if I'm dealing with someone whose behaviour or opinions I find abhorrent it doesn't really matter to me what their roots are or nationality. A clown is a clown.

You have to take note of people "acting out" cultural traits that are supposed to define them. My, English, wife moved to Scotland just as Braveheart came out. Some utter clowns around then. Pretty rare now.

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[danhibees1875]

I didn't say I don't get on with them, I said I had less in common with them than someone from Eastern Europe!!

My apologies Moulin, I can see how your words could also have meant what you explained in your other reply. The final "we" threw me, as at that point no-one would claim that Eastern Europeans were supposed to be closer culturally to English people and so I figured it meant all the we's were therefore about all Scottish people as opposed to how you intended it.

It wouldn't have been the first time I had read a generalisation of the type I thought you were making, but I apologise if you weren't infact making that comment and only speaking of your own experiences.

[J-C]

I always feel the test is being on holiday and when someone asks if you're English and you reply, naw I'm Scottish. I'm about40% Irish from granddads and the rest Scottish, I feel more Scottish than British, never really thought myself as being British, yes the group of countries are called either Britain or the UK but I've always thought as myself as being Scottish 1st and then British 2nd because that's on my passport.

Never had a problem with English folk and have many friends down south, my political views are based on what I think is best for the country and nothing more.

[J-C]

Personally if I'm dealing with someone whose behaviour or opinions I find abhorrent it doesn't really matter to me what their roots are or nationality. A clown is a clown.

You have to take note of people "acting out" cultural traits that are supposed to define them. My, English, wife moved to Scotland just as Braveheart came out. Some utter clowns around then. Pretty rare now.

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I was talking to a punter yesterday and this conversation popped up, talking about religion and the fact I don't get it especially the bigotry bit, I said an arse is an arse no matter what religion they are and are best ignored. We agreed that the best religion was to just be nice to each other and he was a Hindu, nice we tip I got from him too. :greengrin

[danhibees1875]

I always feel the test is being on holiday and when someone asks if you're English and you reply, naw I'm Scottish. I'm about40% Irish from granddads and the rest Scottish, I feel more Scottish than British, never really thought myself as being British, yes the group of countries are called either Britain or the UK but I've always thought as myself as being Scottish 1st and then British 2nd because that's on my passport.

Never had a problem with English folk and have many friends down south, my political views are based on what I think is best for the country and nothing more.

What's that a test for? :confused:

[hibsbollah]

. I'm about40% Irish from granddads.

This has baffled me :greengrin

[James310]

I always feel the test is being on holiday and when someone asks if you're English and you reply, naw I'm Scottish. I'm about40% Irish from granddads and the rest Scottish, I feel more Scottish than British, never really thought myself as being British, yes the group of countries are called either Britain or the UK but I've always thought as myself as being Scottish 1st and then British 2nd because that's on my passport.

Never had a problem with English folk and have many friends down south, my political views are based on what I think is best for the country and nothing more.

If anyone asks me I would say I am Scottish, what test have I passed?

[J-C]

What's that a test for? :confused:

Have you been on holiday and a local asks if you're English, do you say no I'm British or no I'm Scottish.

[J-C]

This has baffled me :greengrin

Fat fingers 50%