Scottish Independence

[James310]

That's a full copy and paste from the Isle of man government


A wee island in the Irish sea has its own central Bank

Have you got a link to it? I thought it never but obviously I am mistaken.

[archie]

That's a full copy and paste from the Isle of man government


A wee island in the Irish sea has its own central Bank
The reason I ask is I thought it issued notes on the same basis as Scottish banks do.The text doesn't say they have a central bank.

[J-C]

The reason I ask is I thought it issued notes on the same basis as Scottish banks do.The text doesn't say they have a central bank.


The Scottish pound is only acceptable within the UK, similar to the NI notes but try using them down south in Englandshire and you'll be laughed at. An Independant Scottish pound will be acceptable all over the world.

[Stairway 2 7]

The Scottish pound is only acceptable within the UK, similar to the NI notes but try using them down south in Englandshire and you'll be laughed at. An Independant Scottish pound will be acceptable all over the world.

Soon enough people will only pay with cards anyway. Probably means you'll have to pay an exchange fee when buying something down south though.

[CropleyWasGod]

The reason I ask is I thought it issued notes on the same basis as Scottish banks do.The text doesn't say they have a central bank.

It doesn't.

It issues notes that can't be spent in the UK, unlike Scottish notes.

[James310]

It doesn't.

It issues notes that can't be spent in the UK, unlike Scottish notes.

So the wee island in the Irish Sea actually doesn't have a Central Bank. So the Crown Dependency tax haven of the Isle of Man is nothing like what Scotland wants to become. Almost the opposite infact.

[Jones28]

Unlikely as it's not in Scotland's gift alone to specify border arrangements.

If the UK gov came out and said “yes to all” on the question of the border would that help?

[Jack]

If we weren't already part of this union would anyone vote to join it?

[CropleyWasGod]

So the wee island in the Irish Sea actually doesn't have a Central Bank. So actually the Crown Dependency tax haven of the Isle of Man is nothing like what Scotland wants to become. Almost the opposite infact.

Not sure why you're saying this to me.

[WhileTheChief..]

If we weren't already part of this union would anyone vote to join it?

That doesn't make sense. There wouldn't be a union in a such a mess to join, we'd be starting from scratch!!

If the chaos the UK Gov has created can't get the Yes vote to grow to nearer to 60%, what will?

I can't think of how things could get any worse for the UK, yet the desire for Indy doesn't appear to gaining much traction throughout all of this.

There's been months / years of turmoil yet the polls have barely moved, the country is still pretty much split 50/50.

How do the SNP increase their vote from here?

[Kato]

If we weren't already part of this union would anyone vote to join it?Single, ex-empire, 1000yo. Looking for fun. Ardent monarchist, hobbies inc. gaslighting and rinsing the poor. Must have good SoH/own economy. No time wasters.
PO Box 1066.

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[archie]

If the UK gov came out and said “yes to all” on the question of the border would that help?
Help who? It's not in thr UK Government interest to say anything on this. As the Brexeteers found, the EU held a lot of the cards and played them to their advantage. They might agree to lots of things, but prior to any negotiation they are never going to offer these up. Also, it's possible that arrangements would be put in place after independence that would be revisited if Scotland went into the EU. In any event, this would happen over a number of years, so what would happen when in relation to borders would be uncertain.

[J-C]

Soon enough people will only pay with cards anyway. Probably means you'll have to pay an exchange fee when buying something down south though.

What? People use cards here all the time and prices don't change because they're from abroad.

[JeMeSouviens]

Help who? It's not in thr UK Government interest to say anything on this. As the Brexeteers found, the EU held a lot of the cards and played them to their advantage. They might agree to lots of things, but prior to any negotiation they are never going to offer these up. Also, it's possible that arrangements would be put in place after independence that would be revisited if Scotland went into the EU. In any event, this would happen over a number of years, so what would happen when in relation to borders would be uncertain.

Which, in a nutshell, is why Scotgov is caught between a rock and a hard place. "You must provide certainty" demand the same group who know they can withhold certainty.

So you get aspiration and vagueness. At least there was no magical thinking in the Scotgov paper - I did worry they would try to pretend we could get a version of the NI Protocol or something.

[Stairway 2 7]

What? People use cards here all the time and prices don't change because they're from abroad.

But there bank will often charge a fee or give a crap rate. People could top up a revolut card ect if they are wanting a decent rate when in England

[JeMeSouviens]

That doesn't make sense. There wouldn't be a union in a such a mess to join, we'd be starting from scratch!!

If the chaos the UK Gov has created can't get the Yes vote to grow to nearer to 60%, what will?

I can't think of how things could get any worse for the UK, yet the desire for Indy doesn't appear to gaining much traction throughout all of this.

There's been months / years of turmoil yet the polls have barely moved, the country is still pretty much split 50/50.

How do the SNP increase their vote from here?

UK gov chaos makes the political argument for Indy easier. But rUK outside EU, oil price since 2015, energy crisis/Russia situation all make it a scarier short term economic prospect. Also, a Lab government is now on the horizon. Are they going to be transformative? Maybe not - but they should at least allow some breathing space from the absolute evil ****show we've been living through. For some potentially indy minded folk a little bit of wait and see while things stabilise and hopefully economic conditions improve a bit, might be in order.

Over the longer term, the Yes vote is growing - from 45/55 at ref1 to close to 50/50, maybe a point or 2 behind now. If you look inside the opinion poll numbers at "did not votes" in ref1, ie. chiefly those too young in 2014, they usually break roughly 2:1 for Yes. There is, as far as can be discerned, no UK gov strategy to convince Scots to buy into Project Brexit Britain. If tub-thumping imperial nostalgia doesn't float your boat, there's precious little else.

SNP/Yes's biggest enemy is fracturing due to impatience.

[WhileTheChief..]

UK gov chaos makes the political argument for Indy easier. But rUK outside EU, oil price since 2015, energy crisis/Russia situation all make it a scarier short term economic prospect. Also, a Lab government is now on the horizon. Are they going to be transformative? Maybe not - but they should at least allow some breathing space from the absolute evil ****show we've been living through. For some potentially indy minded folk a little bit of wait and see while things stabilise and hopefully economic conditions improve a bit, might be in order.

Over the longer term, the Yes vote is growing - from 45/55 at ref1 to close to 50/50, maybe a point or 2 behind now. If you look inside the opinion poll numbers at "did not votes" in ref1, ie. chiefly those too young in 2014, they usually break roughly 2:1 for Yes. There is, as far as can be discerned, no UK gov strategy to convince Scots to buy into Project Brexit Britain. If tub-thumping imperial nostalgia doesn't float your boat, there's precious little else.

SNP/Yes's biggest enemy is fracturing due to impatience.

In other words, wait for older unionists to die and for kids to reach voting age! That's pretty much the strategy from here on out?!

My guess is that Labour will recover a lot of their vote in Scotland at the next GE. That could also filter through to the next Scottish Elections if Labour are then seen as credible.

Can't then see the SNP getting anywhere near the same vote as now in future years.

[Ozyhibby]

In other words, wait for older unionists to die and for kids to reach voting age! That's pretty much the strategy from here on out?!

My guess is that Labour will recover a lot of their vote in Scotland at the next GE. That could also filter through to the next Scottish Elections if Labour are then seen as credible.

Can't then see the SNP getting anywhere near the same vote as now in future years.

Not much evidence of Labour taking votes from the SNP in any recent polls?


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[ronaldo7]

Strong, stable, and broad shoulders of the union, crumbling before our eyes...once again

[WhileTheChief..]

Not much evidence of Labour taking votes from the SNP in any recent polls?


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I've no idea, just my gut instinct that if Starmer is PM, the labour vote in Scotland will have increased substantially.

When the Labour vote in Scotland collapsed, they went mostly to the SNP, in a similar way the red wall votes went to the Conservatives.

It's not a natural home for them though so I expect them to return.

Just my thoughts on the matter, nothing to get alarmed about. I've no evidence of anything.

[JeMeSouviens]

In other words, wait for older unionists to die and for kids to reach voting age! That's pretty much the strategy from here on out?!

My guess is that Labour will recover a lot of their vote in Scotland at the next GE. That could also filter through to the next Scottish Elections if Labour are then seen as credible.

Can't then see the SNP getting anywhere near the same vote as now in future years.

No, the strategy is keep building Scotland as a state in waiting. The new-voters-to-Yes was more a comment pointing out the failure of Unionism to address its longstanding problem: not enough Scots identify as British. Unless/until they do that then indy is all but inevitable in the longer term.

Labour's recent increase has come from the Tories. Ultra-unionists switching to what they see as their best bet.

[Since90+2]

That doesn't make sense. There wouldn't be a union in a such a mess to join, we'd be starting from scratch!!

If the chaos the UK Gov has created can't get the Yes vote to grow to nearer to 60%, what will?

I can't think of how things could get any worse for the UK, yet the desire for Indy doesn't appear to gaining much traction throughout all of this.

There's been months / years of turmoil yet the polls have barely moved, the country is still pretty much split 50/50.

How do the SNP increase their vote from here?

Just my hunch, but if the vote was tomorrow I think Yes would win probably along broadly similar lines to the 45/55 but reversed, possibly a bit more.

Pretty much every opinion poll had Leave losing prior to the Brexit vote, so they don't always give a true indication.

Again, just a hunch based on nothing more than gut instinct.

The problem for the SNP/Yes is I think that suppor may slide slightly if Labour and Starmer are elected and offer atleast some stability and normality to Westminster.

[JeMeSouviens]

I've no idea, just my gut instinct that if Starmer is PM, the labour vote in Scotland will have increased substantially.

When the Labour vote in Scotland collapsed, they went mostly to the SNP, in a similar way the red wall votes went to the Conservatives.

It's not a natural home for them though so I expect them to return.

Just my thoughts on the matter, nothing to get alarmed about. I've no evidence of anything.

You know, you could always look for evidence sometimes rather than relying on your famous gut. :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

Does Truss leave office without even having a phone call with NS?


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[WhileTheChief..]

You know, you could always look for evidence sometimes rather than relying on your famous gut. :wink:

I don't know how to do that?

How do I find out how people who voted SNP in the GE a few years ago, would vote for if Starmer wins a GE now? Or in 2 years?

Point me to where I can check and I'll report back :greengrin

Why don't you ask Indy supporters for evidence whenever they post their thoughts / opinions?

[WhileTheChief..]

Just my hunch, but if the vote was tomorrow I think Yes would win probably along broadly similar lines to the 45/55 but reversed, possibly a bit more.

Pretty much every opinion poll had Leave losing prior to the Brexit vote, so they don't always give a true indication.

Again, just a hunch based on nothing more than gut instinct.

The problem for the SNP/Yes is I think that suppor may slide slightly if Labour and Starmer are elected and offer atleast some stability and normality to Westminster.

I'm absolutely fine with that :greengrin

i like reading people's thoughts on the matter. Feels more real than a cold survey of a sample of 1584 people or whatever.

[Jones28]

I'm absolutely fine with that :greengrin

i like reading people's thoughts on the matter. Feels more real than a cold survey of a sample of 1584 people or whatever.

Does the shambles we’ve seen in Westminster do nothing to move your needle towards independence?


I really genuinely understood the case for the union in the past but now? It just offers me absolutely nothing.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't know how to do that?

How do I find out how people who voted SNP in the GE a few years ago, would vote for if Starmer wins a GE now? Or in 2 years?

Point me to where I can check and I'll report back :greengrin

Why don't you ask Indy supporters for evidence whenever they post their thoughts / opinions?

Opinion polls are all published online, you only need to find them. :wink:

On your last question, I don't think I've ever claimed not to be biased. :wink:

[WhileTheChief..]

It's easy to say that because of the state of the UK Gov just now, that I should be more inclined to want Indy.

But this is short term. I know it's crazy, mental, banana republic stuff, but there will be an election soon, and a new Gov will take over.

I know you won't get this, but I don't equate good / bad UK Gov with no / yes for Indy.

Indy to me is a totally separate thing. If the argument was "it's not as bad as Westminster", it wouldn't really be a ringing endorsement would it?!!

There are lot of things that put me off Indy. What's going on in Westminster isn't one of them but I do accept the whole situation there just now is ridiculous. I've not tried to defend the UK Gov one iota since Boris was kicked out.

[weecounty hibby]

As we are going with non scientific analysis it is my take that based on conversations with folk in the last few weeks a yes vote will win. Some who are now in the yess camp have genuinely surprised me. Some are folk who I'd have put my mortgage on being supporters of the union but no more it appears.

[Jones28]

As we are going with non scientific analysis it is my take that based on conversations with folk in the last few weeks a yes vote will win. Some who are now in the yess camp have genuinely surprised me. Some are folk who I'd have put my mortgage on being supporters of the union but no more it appears.

I wish I could see it but I still don’t see Indy winning.

There are too many people tied to the union for reasons that make **** all sense to me but seems to be enough for them.

[JeMeSouviens]

I wish I could see it but I still don’t see Indy winning.

There are too many people tied to the union for reasons that make **** all sense to me but seems to be enough for them.

There are a hardcore of existential Unionists for sure but if there was an indy campaign tomorrow the No campaign would be just like the last one, fully focused on exploiting hesitancy due to concerns* people have for their own financial situations.

Since we're all going on gut instincts today, :wink: I think Scotland is now an indy minded country just waiting for the right time (actually this isn't really gut instinct, it's what Better Together took from the focus group work they did before their 2014 campaign and will only be more so now). The trouble is there will never be a right time. If we collectively want the reward we will have to at some point take the risk.


* perfectly reasonable and understandable concerns.

[weecounty hibby]

I wish I could see it but I still don’t see Indy winning.

There are too many people tied to the union for reasons that make **** all sense to me but seems to be enough for them.

When we get into campaigning proper and the no side can't use the arguments they did in 2014 then we will see a shift. Everything they argued would happen in an independent Scotland has happened as part if the UK. There is no argument. The big one that they will cling to is the currency but dozens of countries have gained their independence and managed through that. Some as recently as the 90s. But it's another of those things that Scotland uniquely won't manage according to unionists. Borders, currency, pensions etc all things that were used last time.
27 new borders later, with the pound tanked and pension schemes having to be propped up by the BoE well well well. Who'd have thunk it. Soft Nos are seeing all of this. The hardliners will never change but hopefully when indy happens they'll get on board and help make it the success that a lot of us know it can be

[Del Boy]

I would estimate that in 2014 70% of my friends and family were yes and 30% no. From speaking to friends and family recently I don’t know anyone who would now change from yes to no, however pretty much everyone who was no is now either yes or undecided. Obviously this is very small scale but if it’s reflective of country as a whole then there could be a big swing to Yes.

I should counter this by saying I have no friends or family who are dyed in the wool GSTQ loyalists who would never consider voting yes as they are proper rangers men.

[wookie70]

Just my hunch, but if the vote was tomorrow I think Yes would win probably along broadly similar lines to the 45/55 but reversed, possibly a bit more.

Pretty much every opinion poll had Leave losing prior to the Brexit vote, so they don't always give a true indication.

Again, just a hunch based on nothing more than gut instinct.

The problem for the SNP/Yes is I think that suppor may slide slightly if Labour and Starmer are elected and offer atleast some stability and normality to Westminster.


Had a similar discussion with a mate today. My feeling is the best time for a referendum is when the Tories are in power. If that is Johnson or some complete idiot like Truss or her successor then all the better. If Labour are in and look set for more than a single term will make the undecided think twice.

[Keith_M]

I would estimate that in 2014 70% of my friends and family were yes and 30% no. From speaking to friends and family recently I don’t know anyone who would now change from yes to no, however pretty much everyone who was no is now either yes or undecided. Obviously this is very small scale but if it’s reflective of country as a whole then there could be a big swing to Yes.

I should counter this by saying I have no friends or family who are dyed in the wool GSTQ loyalists who would never consider voting yes as they are proper rangers men.


Pretty much my experience as well.


What a chance we missed to get out of this madhouse.

[greenlex]

Does Truss leave office without even having a phone call with NS?


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Aye but to her credit she said she would ignore her. Possibly the only thing she didn’t U Turn on.

[James310]

Pretty much my experience as well.


What a chance we missed to get out of this madhouse.

Does this poll not suggest the opposite, more people going from Yes to No, than No to Yes?

It also suggests the Yes vote is not as strong as the No vote, nearly 30% would switch from Yes to No if they thought Indy would increase cost of living.

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1583376790688788481?t=UAvmPHeNb1nkA6zdp-bEXw&s=19

[archie]

There are a hardcore of existential Unionists for sure but if there was an indy campaign tomorrow the No campaign would be just like the last one, fully focused on exploiting hesitancy due to concerns* people have for their own financial situations.

Since we're all going on gut instincts today, :wink: I think Scotland is now an indy minded country just waiting for the right time (actually this isn't really gut instinct, it's what Better Together took from the focus group work they did before their 2014 campaign and will only be more so now). The trouble is there will never be a right time. If we collectively want the reward we will have to at some point take the risk.


* perfectly reasonable and understandable concerns.I think you are right. There's hard core 'nationalist' and 'unionist' cohorts who will vote their way come what may. The battleground is the large group who are neither, which is where the focus of effort is and will be.

[GlesgaeHibby]

UK gov chaos makes the political argument for Indy easier. But rUK outside EU, oil price since 2015, energy crisis/Russia situation all make it a scarier short term economic prospect. Also, a Lab government is now on the horizon. Are they going to be transformative? Maybe not - but they should at least allow some breathing space from the absolute evil ****show we've been living through. For some potentially indy minded folk a little bit of wait and see while things stabilise and hopefully economic conditions improve a bit, might be in order.

Over the longer term, the Yes vote is growing - from 45/55 at ref1 to close to 50/50, maybe a point or 2 behind now. If you look inside the opinion poll numbers at "did not votes" in ref1, ie. chiefly those too young in 2014, they usually break roughly 2:1 for Yes. There is, as far as can be discerned, no UK gov strategy to convince Scots to buy into Project Brexit Britain. If tub-thumping imperial nostalgia doesn't float your boat, there's precious little else.

SNP/Yes's biggest enemy is fracturing due to impatience.

I don't really get that argument. Since 2016 we've now had around 6 years of instability caused by Brexit, a global pandemic, tory infighting, cost of living crisis. (You could make a case for arguing instability / tough times go back further to the 2008 crash and aftermath of austerity). If things settle in a few years, I think soft no or yes voters would be more likely to vote for the status quo to avoid more instability / upheaval. The first few years of independence will be tricky and a massive adjustment. Best to get it done whilst everything else is a mess anyway imo.

[Moulin Yarns]

Something to read


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jacobites-Name-Third-Future-Edinburgh-ebook/dp/B07Q15TPGL?fbclid=IwAR3tmfTimS1YgyCYZZxbHNWSBXhWrR VuqLKjy_08O88IAUdpDDk_VZYNqII




Edinburgh 2025. Six years after Brexit. The New Georgian wing of the Tories is in firm control at Westminster and determined to take the UK back to the 1700s. To avert a second independence referendum they have overruled the Scottish Parliament and appointed a Viceroy to run Scotland. Thousands of police from other regions of the UK are being flown in to assert his authority. Things look bleak for the independence movement but the Viceroy has reckoned without the intervention of Professor Harmatia McTavish and her colleagues at Edinburgh University who are incensed by the latest round of Tory cuts to their research budgets.

Can a well funded secret society led by brilliant academics with skills in biotechnology, lasers, computer science and pharmacology defeat the Viceroy's army and stage a third Jacobite rebellion? Science fiction mixes with political satire and occasional heresy in a lighthearted romp with more jokes than Dan Brown and less swearing than Irvine Welsh

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/roryscomm/status/1584439197058076674?s=46&t=H6gyD14eLfgJFAyFtXtijg

Tories now admitting Britain is now in decline.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1584599476563546117?s=46&t=H6gyD14eLfgJFAyFtXtijg

Right on Q. Massie predicts that Sunak’s arrival is curtains for the SNP.
You have to admire his ability to get paid for this stuff.


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[degenerated]

https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1584599476563546117?s=46&t=H6gyD14eLfgJFAyFtXtijg

Right on Q. Massie predicts that Sunak’s arrival is curtains for the SNP.
You have to admire his ability to get paid for this stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMassie and his circle jerk of public schoolboy chums in the media have essentially written the same article every week since 2014. Easy money if you can get it.

[Kato]

https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1584599476563546117?s=46&t=H6gyD14eLfgJFAyFtXtijg

Right on Q. Massie predicts that Sunak’s arrival is curtains for the SNP.
You have to admire his ability to get paid for this stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHe patently wrong too. Johnson was massive next Rishi, who is a short arse with less meat on him than a sausage makers hems.


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[Skol]

Did you read massie yesterday?

[archie]

Posted without comment - http://robinmcalpine.org/if-unity-is-impossible-then-there-must-be-variety/

[grunt]

Posted without comment - http://robinmcalpine.org/if-unity-is-impossible-then-there-must-be-variety/Cannot conceal his hatred for Sturgeon.

[marinello59]

Cannot conceal his hatred for Sturgeon.

He disagrees with her.
Im not seeing hatred at all. Thankfully.

[marinello59]

Posted without comment - http://robinmcalpine.org/if-unity-is-impossible-then-there-must-be-variety/

He argues his case well. I’m not in agreement with all of it but I can’t be the only one who after having digested last weeks economic statement from the First Minister who is feeling distinctly underwhelmed by it all.

[JeMeSouviens]

Posted without comment - http://robinmcalpine.org/if-unity-is-impossible-then-there-must-be-variety/

I think if Scotgov's plan for iScotland was use sterling unofficially in perpetuity his argument would have a lot more weight. So he is ignoring completely that it's a transitional thing and Scotgov does want to get to the monetary flexibility of our own currency. Also in his critique of existing countries he ignores the Eurozone. Its members have effectively given up the flexibility to (at least unilaterally) print there way out of a crisis and hence given themselves much less fiscal room for manoeuvre. As seen in Greece.

But an iScotland in transition wouldn't have the monetary freedom to allow that fiscal freedom anyway. You can't just fire up the (virtual) printing presses before you've established your track record. This is why leftists like RMc hate the growth commission report. It bakes in multiple years of tight fiscal discipline.

[Ozyhibby]

I think if Scotgov's plan for iScotland was use sterling unofficially in perpetuity his argument would have a lot more weight. So he is ignoring completely that it's a transitional thing and Scotgov does want to get to the monetary flexibility of our own currency. Also in his critique of existing countries he ignores the Eurozone. Its members have effectively given up the flexibility to (at least unilaterally) print there way out of a crisis and hence given themselves much less fiscal room for manoeuvre. As seen in Greece.

But an iScotland in transition wouldn't have that monetary freedom anyway. You can't just fire up the (virtual) printing presses before you've established your track record. This is why leftists like RMc hate the growth commission report.

I’m not sure why people on both sides of the debate find translation arrangements so hard to understand? Unless of course they don’t want to understand?


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[James310]

He argues his case well. I’m not in agreement with all of it but I can’t be the only one who after having digested last weeks economic statement from the First Minister who is feeling distinctly underwhelmed by it all.

Another Sturgeon hater I guess (actually a friend of hers)

https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,nicola-sturgeons-case-for-independence-is-more-about-wishful-thinking-than-economic-reality


This bit rings true:

"Independence will always be about hope, heart, and negotiation but there are 92 references to “could” in this latest prospectus and frankly, that vagueness encapsulates the flimsiness of the work and has dangerous echoes of Brexit.

It is simply not good enough to point to a political basket case at Westminster and argue that it is making the case for independence for you. That is a job for Sturgeon to do. And if she can’t turn the tide now, in such hellish days when the political ammunition is there for her clear disposal, then when?"

[He's here!]

Another Sturgeon hater I guess (actually a friend of hers)

https://www.holyrood.com/editors-column/view,nicola-sturgeons-case-for-independence-is-more-about-wishful-thinking-than-economic-reality


This bit rings true:

"Independence will always be about hope, heart, and negotiation but there are 92 references to “could” in this latest prospectus and frankly, that vagueness encapsulates the flimsiness of the work and has dangerous echoes of Brexit.

It is simply not good enough to point to a political basket case at Westminster and argue that it is making the case for independence for you. That is a job for Sturgeon to do. And if she can’t turn the tide now, in such hellish days when the political ammunition is there for her clear disposal, then when?"

Spot on. It's arguably no bad thing for Sturgeon that the hoped-for headlines around her 'new' economic prospectus on independence failed to materialise and were buried by the Downing Street drama. It struck me as just a broad brush affair, devoid of detail and failing to make a logical economic case for Scotland cutting ourselves off from our established monetary base while also putting up trade barriers with our biggest trading market. Bewildering stuff and something that deserved more flak than it got, bearing in mind she was trying to sell such uncosted policies at the same time as she was heaping scorn on Trussonomics!

[James310]

Spot on. It's arguably no bad thing for Sturgeon that the hoped-for headlines around her 'new' economic prospectus on independence failed to materialise and were buried by the Downing Street drama. It struck me as just a broad brush affair, devoid of detail and failing to make a logical economic case for Scotland cutting ourselves off from our established monetary base while also putting up trade barriers with our biggest trading market. Bewildering stuff and something that deserved more flak than it got, bearing in mind she was trying to sell such uncosted policies at the same time as she was heaping scorn on Trussonomics!

And to think there is more to come to fill in the large gaps. I heard it will be in paper number 132 version 5.

[grunt]

And to think there is more to come to fill in the large gaps. I heard it will be in paper number 132 version 5.
You were complaining about there being no plan last week.

[grunt]

He disagrees with her.He seems to disagree with everybody? Nothing is ever good enough, he just seems to continually criticise from the sidelines. IMO.

[Ozyhibby]

He seems to disagree with everybody? Nothing is ever good enough, he just seems to continually criticise from the sidelines. IMO.

People on the fringes of the Indy debate are the unionist hero’s. It would be like us constantly putting up the ramblings of the Orange order.


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[archie]

People on the fringes of the Indy debate are the unionist hero’s. It would be like us constantly putting up the ramblings of the Orange order.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkInteresting that Robin McAlpine and Commonweal are seen as being on the fringes.

[grunt]

Interesting that Robin McAlpine and Commonweal are seen as being on the fringes.McAlpine was sacked from Commonweal, no?

[James310]

McAlpine was sacked from Commonweal, no?

No.

"Robin McAlpine is the founder of Common Weal and now our Head of Strategic Development. He has worked for 25 years in journalism, public affairs, political strategy and policy. He writes for a wide range of sources on Scottish politics and is the author of several books."

I think he did have a different position but he dared criticise Nicola Sturgeon so I think was moved into a different role.

[Ozyhibby]

No.

"Robin McAlpine is the founder of Common Weal and now our Head of Strategic Development. He has worked for 25 years in journalism, public affairs, political strategy and policy. He writes for a wide range of sources on Scottish politics and is the author of several books."

I think he did have a different position but he dared criticise Nicola Sturgeon so I think was moved into a different role.

You live in some fantasy world.[emoji23]


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[James310]

You live in some fantasy world.[emoji23]


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Eh? That's copied from the Commonweal Website.

He wrote an article about Nicola Sturgeon and the "set up" of Alex Salmond.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/director-pro-independence-think-tank-steps-down-after-controversial-article-criticising-nicola-sturgeon-3107413


"The director of the think-tank Common Weal has stepped down from his post following the fall-out from an opinion piece which criticised Nicola Sturgeon and her role in allegations of sexual harassment against Alex Salmond"

What's fantasy about what I said?

[grunt]

No.

I think he did have a different position but he dared criticise Nicola Sturgeon so I think was moved into a different role.

Not sacked in the least. No sir. Not at all. Nope. No way.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/director-pro-independence-think-tank-steps-down-after-controversial-article-criticising-nicola-sturgeon-3107413

[Ozyhibby]

Eh? That's copied from the Commonweal Website.

He wrote an article about Nicola Sturgeon and the "set up" of Alex Salmond.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/director-pro-independence-think-tank-steps-down-after-controversial-article-criticising-nicola-sturgeon-3107413


"The director of the think-tank Common Weal has stepped down from his post following the fall-out from an opinion piece which criticised Nicola Sturgeon and her role in allegations of sexual harassment against Alex Salmond"

What's fantasy about what I said?

You claimed it was because he criticised her but when I clicked your link, it turns out he made false allegations against her?
Slightly different, no?


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[James310]

Not sacked in the least. No sir. Not at all. Nope. No way.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/director-pro-independence-think-tank-steps-down-after-controversial-article-criticising-nicola-sturgeon-3107413
Lol, you just quoted the same article as me and I was accused of being in fantasy land.

But it's in The Scotsman a unionist paper so I am surprised you believe a word of it.

Here is it from the horses mouth.

https://robinmcalpine.org/why-i-stepped-down-as-director/

[James310]

You claimed it was because he criticised her but when I clicked your link, it turns out he made false allegations against her?
Slightly different, no?


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So he wasn't sacked as he still works there. He was critical of Nicola Sturgeon and stepped down due to the flak he got.

[Kato]

So he wasn't sacked as he still works there. He was critical of Nicola Sturgeon and stepped down due to the flak he got."Critical"? Going by the article he made some serious allegations.

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[grunt]

So he wasn't sacked as he still works there. He was critical of Nicola Sturgeon and stepped down due to the flak he got.

Removed as Director from the organisation he founded. But no, not "sacked". Oh to live in your simple world.

[James310]

Removed as Director from the organisation he founded. But no, not "sacked". Oh to live in your simple world.

"As a result, Robin has asked to step down from his position as Common Weal Director. He will focus on a new role dedicated to policy development while a new director will lead the whole team.”

Sacked himself did he? 😂

[James310]

Something to read


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jacobites-Name-Third-Future-Edinburgh-ebook/dp/B07Q15TPGL?fbclid=IwAR3tmfTimS1YgyCYZZxbHNWSBXhWrR VuqLKjy_08O88IAUdpDDk_VZYNqII




Edinburgh 2025. Six years after Brexit. The New Georgian wing of the Tories is in firm control at Westminster and determined to take the UK back to the 1700s. To avert a second independence referendum they have overruled the Scottish Parliament and appointed a Viceroy to run Scotland. Thousands of police from other regions of the UK are being flown in to assert his authority. Things look bleak for the independence movement but the Viceroy has reckoned without the intervention of Professor Harmatia McTavish and her colleagues at Edinburgh University who are incensed by the latest round of Tory cuts to their research budgets.

Can a well funded secret society led by brilliant academics with skills in biotechnology, lasers, computer science and pharmacology defeat the Viceroy's army and stage a third Jacobite rebellion? Science fiction mixes with political satire and occasional heresy in a lighthearted romp with more jokes than Dan Brown and less swearing than Irvine Welsh

I missed this. And I get accused of living in some fantasy world. People would buy this?

[Moulin Yarns]

I missed this. And I get accused of living in some fantasy world. People would buy this?

A fictional book set in the future, I think that would be a good idea for fantasy, unless it's prophetic 😉

[Smartie]

I missed this. And I get accused of living in some fantasy world. People would buy this?

It probably depends on what the reader understands by the word "lighthearted" in the description.

My understanding is that this book is not exactly a blueprint of the future.

[marinello59]

He seems to disagree with everybody? Nothing is ever good enough, he just seems to continually criticise from the sidelines. IMO.

He does seem to be a bit of a contrarian. To say the least. :greengrin
That wasn’t my point though. I don’t see hatred there. We can all disagree politically with out it. Thankfully the majority of us do.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/10/uk-economy-disaster-degrowth-brexit/671847/

Depressing.


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[hibee]

https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/10/uk-economy-disaster-degrowth-brexit/671847/

Depressing.


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Sadly we’ve not learned from this so now we’ve finished offshoring industry in favour of finance we’re pushing ahead with offshoring finance in favour of lower wages, no pension payments and a general reduction in employment conditions.

Edinburgh will be losing thousands more finance jobs to Tata and others over the next few years and the way it’s being done we can’t ever get them back.

[Smartie]

https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/10/uk-economy-disaster-degrowth-brexit/671847/

Depressing.


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Very bleak but a lot I could recognise in there.

There often seems to be a bit of denial about the state of play in our country, and our progress relative to other nations.

We need to get our **** together.

[James310]

This is a blow for Nicola Sturgeon following her comments about the Euro last week.

"An independent Scotland will be denied entry to the EU unless Nicola Sturgeon commits to joining the euro, senior figures in Brussels have insisted

A clear message per four separate sources, crystallised by one: "No euro, no membership"

https://archive.ph/WaQu8

(I await it's in The Times so it's not going to be true)

[Callum_62]

This is a blow for Nicola Sturgeon following her comments about the Euro last week.

"An independent Scotland will be denied entry to the EU unless Nicola Sturgeon commits to joining the euro, senior figures in Brussels have insisted

A clear message per four separate sources, crystallised by one: "No euro, no membership"

https://archive.ph/WaQu8

(I await it's in The Times so it's not going to be true)Hasn't that always been the case but it's taken some countries forever/a long time to get to the actual adoption?

As I said before I think on here I've been to Croatia 3 times since 2016 and each time I used Kuna

They were members of the EU then

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[James310]

Hanst that always been the case but it's taken some countries forever/a long time to get tontye actual adoption?

As I said before I think on here I've been to Croatia 3 times since 2016 and each time I used Kuna

They were members of the EU then

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I think Croatia joins the Euro next year.

[Ozyhibby]

I think Croatia joins the Euro next year.

When is Sweden joining?


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[James310]

When is Sweden joining?


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Sweden was in the EU before the Euro. But the main jist as the article states is that there is a hardening approach in the EU about joining the Euro.

"EU member states are understood to have become more ardently opposed to new applicants who reject the single currency since the 2016 Brexit vote."

It's not a great starting point for joining the EU is it? Saying we love the EU and we are desperate to join but we really hate that flagship policy you have called the Euro, the main thing that binds many EU countries together. Again as the article states it would not be looked on favourably if you are rejecting it for purely political reasons.

But you are correct Scotland could play the Sweden card but of course the circumstances are different as Scotland would be a brand new applicant so not sure that would be looked on with much favour at the EU. But it would be then up to the SNP to explain how we could be a successful new EU nation while remaining outside the Euro.

[archie]

Presumably that would also apply in the unlikely event that UK applied to rejoin? One of the many impacts of Brexit was end of the opt outs we had

[Callum_62]

I think Croatia joins the Euro next year.Yep, but it took them 10 years of membership to get there



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[Bristolhibby]

This is a blow for Nicola Sturgeon following her comments about the Euro last week.

"An independent Scotland will be denied entry to the EU unless Nicola Sturgeon commits to joining the euro, senior figures in Brussels have insisted

A clear message per four separate sources, crystallised by one: "No euro, no membership"

https://archive.ph/WaQu8

(I await it's in The Times so it's not going to be true)

Sign up to the Euro then. Fine by me.

19 countries use it successfully.

Don’t know why there’s such fear.

Don’t see how this changes anything said.

Sterling for a bit, then Scottish pound, then ascension back into EU, then Euro.

You telling me the EU hasn’t planned for a new member that has become independent joining the EU? It’s literally what it is there for, to grow with new members.

J

[Hibrandenburg]

This is a blow for Nicola Sturgeon following her comments about the Euro last week.

"An independent Scotland will be denied entry to the EU unless Nicola Sturgeon commits to joining the euro, senior figures in Brussels have insisted

A clear message per four separate sources, crystallised by one: "No euro, no membership"

https://archive.ph/WaQu8

(I await it's in The Times so it's not going to be true)

Great, I've been happily using the Euro for 20 years, I can buy things from a bunch of other countries without having to worry about exchange rates or exchange rate fees. Win win for consumer and supplier.

[danhibees1875]

Great, I've been happily using the Euro for 20 years, I can buy things from a bunch of other countries without having to worry about exchange rates or exchange rate fees. Win win for consumer and supplier.

I'm not against the euro per se, but that's what the plan should be if that's the reality. I can see why they don't want to go down the rabbit hole of talking about GBP to ScP to Euro transitions though.

All those things you don't have to worry about are the new things iScotland would have to worry about with our biggest trading partner -rUK- if we moved from GBP. That's going to have an impact on our imports and exports, as well on people traveling either direction (tourism is a rather big market that we'd be putting a lot of pressure on with the switch).
A "lose lose for consumer and supplier" in other words.

[Since90+2]

Great, I've been happily using the Euro for 20 years, I can buy things from a bunch of other countries without having to worry about exchange rates or exchange rate fees. Win win for consumer and supplier.

Why do you think the SNP are reticent to mention a switch to the Euro? It's not about how easy it is for the consumer.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's suicide for snp to say whether we'll eother stick pegged to the pound or join euro. There will be lots of undecided that don't want either decision. Just say we'll decide post independence then you don't anger either group.

I'd be happy with euro but not nieve to think it won't cause difficulties. Exchange rate fees when buying from our biggest trading partner and only land border a major one. Poll from last year but gives an idea

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19499617.poll-independence-support-fall-scotland-set-adopt-euro/
Almost 40 per cent of Scots are less likely to back independence if separation plans appeared on course for the country adopting the euro currency, a new poll has revealed

[James310]

Great, I've been happily using the Euro for 20 years, I can buy things from a bunch of other countries without having to worry about exchange rates or exchange rate fees. Win win for consumer and supplier.

The Euro is a big vote loser, if the SNP switched policy to adopt the Euro support for Independence would plummet. It would also mean 3 different currencies in a short space of time meaning lose x3 for consumers and businesses with costs and inconvenience.

I think a poll for favored currency option showed support for the Euro was on about 10%.

[James310]

Sign up to the Euro then. Fine by me.

19 countries use it successfully.

Don’t know why there’s such fear.

Don’t see how this changes anything said.

Sterling for a bit, then Scottish pound, then ascension back into EU, then Euro.

You telling me the EU hasn’t planned for a new member that has become independent joining the EU? It’s literally what it is there for, to grow with new members.

J

Support for Independence plummets if the SNP announced they were adopting the Euro, hence why you won't see them do it. This is in the article as well, rejecting it for purely political reasons would not be looked on favourably.

[Mr Grieves]

Sigh, I feel like this argument has been had before hundreds of pages ago. To use the Euro, EU countries have to participate in ERM for at least 2 years. Participation in the ERM is voluntary, hence why 8 EU countries have had the option not to adopt the Euro

https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/euro/enlargement-euro-area/adoption-fixed-euro-conversion-rate/erm-ii-eus-exchange-rate-mechanism_en#:~:text=Participation%20in%20ERM%20II %20is%20voluntary%20although%2C%20as,before%20it%2 0can%20qualify%20to%20adopt%20the%20euro.

[CropleyWasGod]

Support for Independence plummets if the SNP announced they were adopting the Euro, hence why you won't see them do it. This is in the article as well, rejecting it for purely political reasons would not be looked on favourably.

You're ignoring the fact that it's not the SNP's call. That it would be up to the government of the day, backed up by the electorate, to decide on whether to apply for EU membership with all that that entails.

[degenerated]

Sigh, I feel like this argument has been had before hundreds of pages ago. To use the Euro, EU countries have to participate in ERM for at least 2 years. Participation in the ERM is voluntary, hence why 8 EU countries have had the option not to adopt the Euro

https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/euro/enlargement-euro-area/adoption-fixed-euro-conversion-rate/erm-ii-eus-exchange-rate-mechanism_en#:~:text=Participation%20in%20ERM%20II %20is%20voluntary%20although%2C%20as,before%20it%2 0can%20qualify%20to%20adopt%20the%20euro.To be fair it's about all they have left in the armoury. Everything else that they threatened would happen to an independent Scotland has happened as a result of us staying in the union.

[James310]

Sigh, I feel like this argument has been had before hundreds of pages ago. To use the Euro, EU countries have to participate in ERM for at least 2 years. Participation in the ERM is voluntary, hence why 8 EU countries have had the option not to adopt the Euro

https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/euro/enlargement-euro-area/adoption-fixed-euro-conversion-rate/erm-ii-eus-exchange-rate-mechanism_en#:~:text=Participation%20in%20ERM%20II %20is%20voluntary%20although%2C%20as,before%20it%2 0can%20qualify%20to%20adopt%20the%20euro.

Not sure you read the article, the EU are saying they are taking a hardening stance.

"The EU’s membership terms are very clear: “All EU member states, except Denmark, are required to adopt the euro and join the euro area.” Speaking to The Times, a senior source was equally unambiguous: “No euro, no membership.”

It's also the optics, we love the EU and really want to join but we hate the Euro.

“Most EU figures would simply assume that, if proponents of Scottish independence were truly ‘pro-EU’, they would embrace joining the euro as well. In turn, they are surprised to discover the contrary.”

[Jack]

Sigh, I feel like this argument has been had before hundreds of pages ago. To use the Euro, EU countries have to participate in ERM for at least 2 years. Participation in the ERM is voluntary, hence why 8 EU countries have had the option not to adopt the Euro

https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/euro/enlargement-euro-area/adoption-fixed-euro-conversion-rate/erm-ii-eus-exchange-rate-mechanism_en#:~:text=Participation%20in%20ERM%20II %20is%20voluntary%20although%2C%20as,before%20it%2 0can%20qualify%20to%20adopt%20the%20euro.

I know eh!

I'm sure the unionist media have a list of go to staunch €file EU folk (as they do for other subjects) and every now and again will go to them to spread a little more doubt - quite often in the face of overwhelming evidence of contrary facts.

[James310]

You're ignoring the fact that it's not the SNP's call. That it would be up to the government of the day, backed up by the electorate, to decide on whether to apply for EU membership with all that that entails.

Independence in Europe is the current SNP sales pitch, so it's fair to challenge what that means and the implications of it.

[James310]

Some Scottish nationalists have really become their Brexiteer cousins, any challenges or concerns are immediately dismissed as untrue or it's all just project fear etc. Experts are dismissed as being bias or having an agenda and so on.

It's really quite something.

[Jack]

Not sure you read the article, the EU are saying they are taking a hardening stance.

"The EU’s membership terms are very clear: “All EU member states, except Denmark, are required to adopt the euro and join the euro area.” Speaking to The Times, a senior source was equally unambiguous: “No euro, no membership.”

It's also the optics, we love the EU and really want to join but we hate the Euro.

“Most EU figures would simply assume that, if proponents of Scottish independence were truly ‘pro-EU’, they would embrace joining the euro as well. In turn, they are surprised to discover the contrary.”

The dates of that EU page go back to 2020 so it's not new news, more the unionists regurgitating the same stuff over and over and over and over again.

[Jack]

Some Scottish nationalists have really become their Brexiteer cousins, any challenges or concerns are immediately dismissed as untrue or it's all just project fear etc. Experts are dismissed as being bias or having an agenda and so on.

It's really quite something.

I'm not sure you quoted any experts.

[Mr Grieves]

Not sure you read the article, the EU are saying they are taking a hardening stance.

"The EU’s membership terms are very clear: “All EU member states, except Denmark, are required to adopt the euro and join the euro area.” Speaking to The Times, a senior source was equally unambiguous: “No euro, no membership.”

It's also the optics, we love the EU and really want to join but we hate the Euro.

“Most EU figures would simply assume that, if proponents of Scottish independence were truly ‘pro-EU’, they would embrace joining the euro as well. In turn, they are surprised to discover the contrary.”

A times article with quotes from unnamed sources trumps the European commission when it comes to rules for joining the EU right enough.

It's there in black and white -

Participation in ERM II is voluntary although, as one of the convergence criteria for entry to the euro area, a country must participate in the mechanism without severe tensions and without devaluing its central rate against the euro on its own initiative for at least two years before it can qualify to adopt the euro.

The evidence is the 8 EU countries not in the eurozone.

[CropleyWasGod]

Independence in Europe is the current SNP sales pitch, so it's fair to challenge what that means and the implications of it.

And it's fair to repeat the reality of the situation. It's not their call.

[ronaldo7]

A times article with quotes from unnamed sources trumps the European commission when it comes to rules for joining the EU right enough.

It's straight out of the leave UK playbook.

[Ozyhibby]

Happy enough to adopt the Euro. Pretty sure we have to go to a Scottish pound first though. Don’t see the problem really.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Happy enough to adopt the Euro. Pretty sure we have to go to a Scottish pound first though. Don’t see the problem really.


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But your a person not the electorate, many don't want the euro. Snp won't touch it as they don't have to pre independence.

[ronaldo7]

Anthony Salamone, who has been instrumental in the Times article is managing director of European merchants think tank. They're based in Edinburgh and say they have no political allegiance.

They've also written this about Scotland and the EU.

Scotland’s path will be determined by the form of currency arrangement it chooses post-independence. If it did not have its own state currency by the point of accession, then “special arrangements” would have to be made.

While this is possible, it’s likely the EU would “seek accompanying guarantees”, Salamone added.

He said: “Such conditions could include a detailed plan from Scotland for the establishment of its own currency, including the sequencing of monetary conversion.

“It would want evidence on the economic, fiscal and monetary implications of this plan. It would surely want assurances that the plan would ensure the stability of the Scottish economy and likewise not affect the stability of the EU Single Market.”

But Scotland would not be obliged to join the euro at the point of accession, but instead a “general obligation” to complete the stages of the Economic and Monetary Union and to join the euro area eventually.

“That point could be never, if Scotland so decided,” Salamone added.

Salamone also provided analysis of the border issue following separation from the UK.


EU rules mean that an independent Scotland would have an obligation to implement the bloc’s laws at its borders, which would mean that though there would be free movement of people through the Common Travel Area (CTA) with the UK, it would not be the same for goods.

“Trade in goods between Scotland and the UK would be subject to border checks and controls, just like trade between the UK and any other EU Member State,” he said.

In the event of independence, Scotland would have to construct its own infrastructure for border controls on trade in goods, whether it joins the EU or not – unless a deal was brokered to form a customs union with the UK.

Salamone added: “Once an EU member, Scotland would have no standing to negotiate directly with the UK on matters under the EU-UK relationship.”


This is not new. It's something we've known for years.

[Kato]

the EU are saying



Sure they are.

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[archie]

The Euro is a cornerstone of the European project. One of the key issues is free movement of capital and wider trade is the transaction costs and risks around currency. That's one reason why very few people in Britain have mortgages denominated in euros. So while it's true that new entrants don't have to join the euro right away (indeed they might not be allowed to) they do have to act on convergence criteria. This is not trivial. But it's true that we would not be required to adopt the euro on entry. But on the other hand, the idea that the EU would turn a blind eye to the current clear statement that we won't join the euro is just fanciful.

[James310]

Sure they are.

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Classic Brexiteer tactics, just dismiss it as made up or not true.

[Ozyhibby]

Classic Brexiteer tactics, just dismiss it as made up or not true.

Can you source it then?


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[Moulin Yarns]

Can you source it then?


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It's in the Times, and that's all you need to know.

[James310]

Can you source it then?


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You can choose to either believe it or not believe it and dismiss it as lies or untrue, it's your choice. But the parallels with Brexiteers immediately dismissing or questioning any story that doesn't paint the positive picture they want are all there.

[archie]

I think people are looking at this the wrong way. SG support for joining the EU isn't a strategy for Scotland - it's a tactic for any referendum. The idea is to anchor people who want to be in the EU to a yes vote. Why do I think this? The SNP has had a range of views on the EU. It has moved from ferocious opposition to almost slavish adherence. The shift was, in my view, tactical as 'independence in Europe' seemed less risky as many of the issues concerning people such as free movement etc. wouldn't come in to play. This was. of course, before the euro. And Brexit changed all that. There are other pointers to this being a tactic rather than a strategy:

- FM has said there won't be a vote on EU entry, but this isn't in FMs gift
- The timeframe is extremely fuzzy - if Scotland has a transition period towards independence then it can only apply after independence. Negotiations take around five years, so it could be in the 2030s before we would be members
- What terms would we join on? Would we be happy to be a net contributer? Would EU want a new member who would be a recipient of funding?
- How would we meet the convergence criteria and what would this mean for Scotland?
- How real is the notion that we could enter the EU and not have a programme to adopt the Euro?
- What about other emerging trends, such as an EU common security and defence policy - would we be happy to sign up to these?
- What about Schengen?

None of these have really been addressed. I accept that some of this is difficult, especially as the EU won't get into any discussion until Scotland was able to do so. But some indicator of what EU membership might mean would be helpful. The reality for me is that both sides of the independence debate get stuck in their positions and there is little debate. Could Scotland join the EU - of course. Would it be pain free - no. Both sides need to acknowledge that.

The fact there is little debate on what joining the EU would mean in practice suggests to me that this is not a serious strategy.

[archie]

It's in the Times, and that's all you need to know.What does it tell us?

[grunt]

But some indicator of what EU membership might mean would be helpful. Access to the four freedoms, the single market and customs union. That'll do me.

[archie]

Anthony Salamone, who has been instrumental in the Times article is managing director of European merchants think tank. They're based in Edinburgh and say they have no political allegiance.

They've also written this about Scotland and the EU.

Scotland’s path will be determined by the form of currency arrangement it chooses post-independence. If it did not have its own state currency by the point of accession, then “special arrangements” would have to be made.

While this is possible, it’s likely the EU would “seek accompanying guarantees”, Salamone added.

He said: “Such conditions could include a detailed plan from Scotland for the establishment of its own currency, including the sequencing of monetary conversion.

“It would want evidence on the economic, fiscal and monetary implications of this plan. It would surely want assurances that the plan would ensure the stability of the Scottish economy and likewise not affect the stability of the EU Single Market.”

But Scotland would not be obliged to join the euro at the point of accession, but instead a “general obligation” to complete the stages of the Economic and Monetary Union and to join the euro area eventually.

“That point could be never, if Scotland so decided,” Salamone added.

Salamone also provided analysis of the border issue following separation from the UK.


EU rules mean that an independent Scotland would have an obligation to implement the bloc’s laws at its borders, which would mean that though there would be free movement of people through the Common Travel Area (CTA) with the UK, it would not be the same for goods.

“Trade in goods between Scotland and the UK would be subject to border checks and controls, just like trade between the UK and any other EU Member State,” he said.

In the event of independence, Scotland would have to construct its own infrastructure for border controls on trade in goods, whether it joins the EU or not – unless a deal was brokered to form a customs union with the UK.

Salamone added: “Once an EU member, Scotland would have no standing to negotiate directly with the UK on matters under the EU-UK relationship.”


This is not new. It's something we've known for years.Just to pick up the CTA point. The CTA is made up on non-Schengen counties. If Scotland was to join Schengen then the CTA wouldn't stand.

[archie]

Access to the four freedoms, the single market and customs union. That'll do me.At any cost? Despite what the economic ramifications might be in making the transition? Using the Euro? Hard border with England and Wales? Being a net contributer? The EU common defence and security policy? Etc. Etc.?

[Kato]

Classic Brexiteer tactics, just dismiss it as made up or not true.You named an unknown source from a UK paper which is never going to support self determination for Scotland.

Other sources available and posted subsequently seem to say something different.

I'm open minded.

Your claim that "the EU said" is a distortion of what the article actually contains given its one source with no name or providence.

If anyone is putting forward twisted information, which was a tactic of brexiters, it's you.


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[grunt]

At any cost? Despite what the economic ramifications might be in making the transition? Using the Euro? Hard border with England and Wales? Being a net contributer? The EU common defence and security policy? Etc. Etc.?
All of the above. I no longer care. I want away from Westminster so much I'd agree to having to speak German if necessary. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Just to pick up the CTA point. The CTA is made up on non-Schengen counties. If Scotland was to join Schengen then the CTA wouldn't stand.

It's a moving picture just like the currency. We're not picking a position today for the future. After independence it'll be up to political parties of the day to decide the path, put it in a manifesto and we all decide. The CTA was re hashed in 2019. Did it affect the movement of people within the area? The answer was no. It's still in place because governments were pragmatic, and know that folk are still wanting to move around the British Isles freely. I was visiting Dublin recently(a European member) and you can actually get there without a passport. Ireland is not in schengen, and seems to be able to get along with their lot.

It seems those that don't want independence are trying the old tactic of dis information for the sake of their own position, it was always going to happen, and we'll see it now more and more.

It's like they don't think we're capable of running our own affairs.

The points above are not reflective of your personal viewpoint.

[ronaldo7]

At any cost? Despite what the economic ramifications might be in making the transition? Using the Euro? Hard border with England and Wales? Being a net contributer? The EU common defence and security policy? Etc. Etc.?

Are their any positives in your mind regarding joining the EU?

[Kato]

Are their any positives in your mind regarding joining the EU?He listed them there.

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[JeMeSouviens]

I think people are looking at this the wrong way. SG support for joining the EU isn't a strategy for Scotland - it's a tactic for any referendum. The idea is to anchor people who want to be in the EU to a yes vote. Why do I think this? The SNP has had a range of views on the EU. It has moved from ferocious opposition to almost slavish adherence. The shift was, in my view, tactical as 'independence in Europe' seemed less risky as many of the issues concerning people such as free movement etc. wouldn't come in to play. This was. of course, before the euro. And Brexit changed all that. There are other pointers to this being a tactic rather than a strategy:

- FM has said there won't be a vote on EU entry, but this isn't in FMs gift
- The timeframe is extremely fuzzy - if Scotland has a transition period towards independence then it can only apply after independence. Negotiations take around five years, so it could be in the 2030s before we would be members
- What terms would we join on? Would we be happy to be a net contributer? Would EU want a new member who would be a recipient of funding?
- How would we meet the convergence criteria and what would this mean for Scotland?
- How real is the notion that we could enter the EU and not have a programme to adopt the Euro?
- What about other emerging trends, such as an EU common security and defence policy - would we be happy to sign up to these?
- What about Schengen?

None of these have really been addressed. I accept that some of this is difficult, especially as the EU won't get into any discussion until Scotland was able to do so. But some indicator of what EU membership might mean would be helpful. The reality for me is that both sides of the independence debate get stuck in their positions and there is little debate. Could Scotland join the EU - of course. Would it be pain free - no. Both sides need to acknowledge that.

The fact there is little debate on what joining the EU would mean in practice suggests to me that this is not a serious strategy.

I think this latest dose of targeted cynicism is about 30 years out of date. The SNP and the indy movement generally is fully committed to EU membership. We (the Scottish electorate) are painfully aware of what in-EU/out-EU looks like thanks to Brexit.

While it is true to say accession would be years post-indy, we could join the EEA and have full single market access on day 1 of indy quite feasibly.

As for today's latest flurry of negativity, nothing has changed from what has been discussed here about 12 million times. Expect 12 million and 1 any day - can't wait. :rolleyes:

Would iScotland have to commit in principle to Eurozone membership? Yes. Would there be any pressured timescale to achieve this? If the experience of the countries that have joined the EU since Maastricht (the treaty that mandated Eurozone membership) is anything to go by - no.

Anyway, the whole point of any indy economic strategy has to be to move from an rUK oriented economy to an EU oriented one, as Ireland has done very successfully since 1973. While a transitional arrangement obviously mandates sticking close to sterling, in the longer term if we're going to peg, or stabilise a floating currency to or actually use another currency, then it has to be the Euro. Now, with the total bollox that the Tories are making of sterling, would be the ideal time to articulate that politically, imo.

Of your other points, I don't think anyone thinks Scotland will get special conditions of membership opt outs like the UK/Ireland/Denmark did with the possible exception of the Schengen area. In that one regard, we are actually a bit of a special case (well, same as Ireland) in having a land border with rUK and sea borders with everyone else. Ireland is a practical example of how that would operate so there's no magical thinking required, just some political willingness. It may even suit the other Schengen members from a security pov to not have a piece of Schengen territory on an island shared with non-Schengen rUK.

[Ozyhibby]

One drawback will be the number of people in England with Scottish parents and grandparents applying for Scottish nationality in order to get their hands on a Scottish EU passport. The system in Ireland is creaking big time with the amount of applications and it now takes about three years.
We’ll need to make sure we set up an effective system for this.


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[JeMeSouviens]

At any cost? Despite what the economic ramifications might be in making the transition? Using the Euro? Hard border with England and Wales? Being a net contributer? The EU common defence and security policy? Etc. Etc.?

The UK economy has declined from 90-ish% the size of Germany's to 70-ish% thanks to Brexit according to Mark Carney (who did back it up with figures).

People who cling to Scotland-as-a-region because of Barnett make the assumption that the UK continues and will continue to be one of the dominant European economies. The evidence tends to be against this as the longer term trend.

Your net contributor point is interesting. Are BetterTogether2 getting a red bus? :wink: Post-brexit shows net contribution is a very fair exchange for single market access.

EU common defence and security policy is a big plus for me. And ought to be for anyone who actually takes the time to think about it, imo.

[Stairway 2 7]

We will need to have massive austerity to get membership I think. UK is running a deficit of 6% per year, Scotland 12%. Eu membership requires 3% max, so like Greece we'll need to tighten

[James310]

It was only 2007 the SNP wanted a referendum on leaving the EU.

SNP MP Angus Robertson said: "We'll trust the people while Gordon Brown will not trust the people. We are honour-bound to support a referendum."

Nothing wrong whatsoever with changing strategy to attract who you think will vote for it, but the SNP were nowhere near as pro EU as they seem to want to make out they are.

[ronaldo7]

It was only 2007 the SNP wanted a referendum on leaving the EU.

SNP MP Angus Robertson said: "We'll trust the people while Gordon Brown will not trust the people. We are honour-bound to support a referendum."

Nothing wrong whatsoever with changing strategy to attract who you think will vote for it, but the SNP were nowhere near as pro EU as they seem to want to make out they are.

I hope you're not wearing the same clothes you were 15 years ago. 😱

We've had 6 prime ministers since then.

[James310]

I hope you're not wearing the same clothes you were 15 years ago. 😱

I still have my Hibs Whyte & Mackay shirt but yes it's a bit tight now.

[archie]

It's a moving picture just like the currency. We're not picking a position today for the future. After independence it'll be up to political parties of the day to decide the path, put it in a manifesto and we all decide. The CTA was re hashed in 2019. Did it affect the movement of people within the area? The answer was no. It's still in place because governments were pragmatic, and know that folk are still wanting to move around the British Isles freely. I was visiting Dublin recently(a European member) and you can actually get there without a passport. Ireland is not in schengen, and seems to be able to get along with their lot.

It seems those that don't want independence are trying the old tactic of dis information for the sake of their own position, it was always going to happen, and we'll see it now more and more.

It's like they don't think we're capable of running our own affairs.

The points above are not reflective of your personal viewpoint.I travel to Dublin regularly. I agree re pragmatism, but there is a question as to whether an independent Scotland would be able to show this, given EU views on Schengen. It's a bit like opt outs on the Euro. Would new members have the option that existing members have?

[ronaldo7]

I still have my Hibs Whyte & Mackay shirt but yes it's a bit tight now.

And we're no longer advertising Whyte & Mackay, if you get my drift.

Things change.

[archie]

Are their any positives in your mind regarding joining the EU?Loads. Lack of a major war in Western Europe for 75 years. Ability to act as a bloc against huge companies, particularly tech companies. Having structures that allow Ireland issues to be managed etc. etc. I voted remain and would like to vote to join, but it would depend on the terms. I wouldn't support joining the Euro

[ronaldo7]

I travel to Dublin regularly. I agree re pragmatism, but there is a question as to whether an independent Scotland would be able to show this, given EU views on Schengen. It's a bit like opt outs on the Euro. Would new members have the option that existing members have?

I think you underestimate the strength of feeling for an independent Scotland in Europe.

What do you mean by the EU views on Shengen?

Bulgaria, Cyprus, Ireland, Romania, and Croatia all need to know.

[JeMeSouviens]

We will need to have massive austerity to get membership I think. UK is running a deficit of 6% per year, Scotland 12%. Eu membership requires 3% max, so like Greece we'll need to tighten

EU membership will likely require a plan to get to 3%. Not 3% on day 1.

But you're right that our current level of deficit is unsustainable and therefore we need to grow revenues by raising tax and/or increasing the tax base and/or cutting spending over the long term.

Or we could stick with the UK's baked in decline and just be happy to have 115% of UK per-capita spending. Hey, we'll always be better off than N England so that's fine right? Unless the UK gov feels confident enough to pull away the Barnett rug from under us of course. But then, they wouldn't do that, would they?

[ronaldo7]

Loads. Lack of a major war in Western Europe for 75 years. Ability to act as a bloc against huge companies, particularly tech companies. Having structures that allow Ireland issues to be managed etc. etc. I voted remain and would like to vote to join, but it would depend on the terms. I wouldn't support joining the Euro

I was happy with loads. 😊

[archie]

I think this latest dose of targeted cynicism is about 30 years out of date. The SNP and the indy movement generally is fully committed to EU membership. We (the Scottish electorate) are painfully aware of what in-EU/out-EU looks like thanks to Brexit.

While it is true to say accession would be years post-indy, we could join the EEA and have full single market access on day 1 of indy quite feasibly.

As for today's latest flurry of negativity, nothing has changed from what has been discussed here about 12 million times. Expect 12 million and 1 any day - can't wait. :rolleyes:

Would iScotland have to commit in principle to Eurozone membership? Yes. Would there be any pressured timescale to achieve this? If the experience of the countries that have joined the EU since Maastricht (the treaty that mandated Eurozone membership) is anything to go by - no.

Anyway, the whole point of any indy economic strategy has to be to move from an rUK oriented economy to an EU oriented one, as Ireland has done very successfully since 1973. While a transitional arrangement obviously mandates sticking close to sterling, in the longer term if we're going to peg, or stabilise a floating currency to or actually use another currency, then it has to be the Euro. Now, with the total bollox that the Tories are making of sterling, would be the ideal time to articulate that politically, imo.

Of your other points, I don't think anyone thinks Scotland will get special conditions of membership opt outs like the UK/Ireland/Denmark did with the possible exception of the Schengen area. In that one regard, we are actually a bit of a special case (well, same as Ireland) in having a land border with rUK and sea borders with everyone else. Ireland is a practical example of how that would operate so there's no magical thinking required, just some political willingness. It may even suit the other Schengen members from a security pov to not have a piece of Schengen territory on an island shared with non-Schengen rUK.

There's nothing cynical about it. These are hard questions that have to be addressed. As for the independence movement supports it, that's a bit of a sweeping statement. How can you claim support for an aspiration that has no details attached to it whatsoever. I'd like to join the EU, but not at any cost. I suspect that will be the case for many people.

[Ozyhibby]

EU membership will likely require a plan to get to 3%. Not 3% on day 1.

But you're right that our current level of deficit is unsustainable and therefore we need to grow revenues by raising tax and/or increasing the tax base and/or cutting spending over the long term.

Or we could stick with the UK's baked in decline and just be happy to have 115% of UK per-capita spending. Hey, we'll always be better off than N England so that's fine right? Unless the UK gov feels confident enough to pull away the Barnett rug from under us of course. But then, they wouldn't do that, would they?

I think growing the economy by encouraging young people from the EU to come to Scotland to study and work should be the way we proceed. That will bring economic growth, which is the easiest way of reducing a deficit.
Scotland needs young people to increase its tax base and needs to reduce its deficit. This solves both problems.


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[archie]

I think you underestimate the strength of feeling for an independent Scotland in Europe.

What do you mean by the EU views on Shengen?

Bulgaria, Cyprus, Ireland, Romania, and Croatia all need to know.I can assure you that the EUs views on Scottish accession will have no sentiment whatsoever. It will be a hard nosed negotiation. In Schengen the point was what if you have to join Schengen to accede to the EU.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think growing the economy by encouraging young people from the EU to come to Scotland to study and work should be the way we proceed. That will bring economic growth, which is the easiest way of reducing a deficit.
Scotland needs young people to increase its tax base and needs to reduce its deficit. This solves both problems.


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I agree and would add we should make a special point of attracting pro-EU folk from rUK. Businesses too. Us and Ireland are ideally placed to attract them.

[archie]

EU membership will likely require a plan to get to 3%. Not 3% on day 1.

But you're right that our current level of deficit is unsustainable and therefore we need to grow revenues by raising tax and/or increasing the tax base and/or cutting spending over the long term.

Or we could stick with the UK's baked in decline and just be happy to have 115% of UK per-capita spending. Hey, we'll always be better off than N England so that's fine right? Unless the UK gov feels confident enough to pull away the Barnett rug from under us of course. But then, they wouldn't do that, would they?Baked in decline is a big assertion. What do you base this on?

[archie]

I agree and would add we should make a special point of attracting pro-EU folk from rUK. Businesses too. Us and Ireland are ideally placed to attract them.And how would you do that?

[archie]

I think growing the economy by encouraging young people from the EU to come to Scotland to study and work should be the way we proceed. That will bring economic growth, which is the easiest way of reducing a deficit.
Scotland needs young people to increase its tax base and needs to reduce its deficit. This solves both problems.


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Why can we grow our economy my educating and empowering young people already here?

[ronaldo7]

I can assure you that the EUs views on Scottish accession will have no sentiment whatsoever. It will be a hard nosed negotiation. In Schengen the point was what if you have to join Schengen to accede to the EU.

Are you now saying the Irish will have to join Shengen?

Where do you get the asumption that we'll have to join schengen?

[James310]

I think growing the economy by encouraging young people from the EU to come to Scotland to study and work should be the way we proceed. That will bring economic growth, which is the easiest way of reducing a deficit.
Scotland needs young people to increase its tax base and needs to reduce its deficit. This solves both problems.


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What stopped us doing that for decades of free movement of people across the EU? Why did so many more choose to settle in England?

[archie]

Are you now saying the Irish will have to join Shengen?No, because they have a pre existing opt out. The tension is whether new members would have access to opt outs

[Stairway 2 7]

And how would you do that?

Hopefully not a race the bottom on corporation tax. They would chose Ireland over us at present rates. I've seen people on here both say we should copy Ireland cutting corporation tax and also slamming the tories for trying to cut corporation tax mind

[Ozyhibby]

Why can we grow our economy my educating and empowering young people already here?

We can and do do that? We have the best educated population in Europe.
We also have very poor demographics. We have a very low birth rate which is threatening our ability to be able to fund our ageing population. We need to encourage people to have more children (free childcare, education, child support) but can also help this problem by encouraging young people to come and live and work here.


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[Ozyhibby]

Hopefully not a race the bottom on corporation tax. They would chose Ireland over us at present rates. I've seen people on here both say we should copy Ireland cutting corporation tax and also slamming the tories for trying to cut corporation tax mind

I doubt we would follow Irelands model. More likely to follow what the Dane’s do. We will find our own way.


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[Since90+2]

We can and do do that? We have the best educated population in Europe.
We also have very poor demographics. We have a very low birth rate which is threatening our ability to be able to fund our ageing population. We need to encourage people to have more children (free childcare, education, child support) but can also help this problem by encouraging young people to come and live and work here.


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Do we still have the best educated people in Europe?

[Ozyhibby]

What stopped us doing that for decades of free movement of people across the EU? Why did so many more choose to settle in England?

A question for Westminster surely? Why do people flock to the south of England more than the rest of the UK?


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[ronaldo7]

No, because they have a pre existing opt out. The tension is whether new members would have access to opt outs

And that's where pragmatism comes in. Scotland within the CTA would have Ireland as a friend, or do you think the Irish would want to have to show their passports to get into an independent Scotland?

[Ozyhibby]

Do we still have the best educated people in Europe?

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/international-figures-show-scotland-europes-190832481.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ 2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAG4xF1599wOwA3vSgA8ArEVvnQZ-ju9fpG3PmILlT5qKp-JZ0ECpPcDVxwdyS2i3ism8OSL_9k2ioQGJdrGuqGi30YpR-Y3SOKocV78HmuGYc5QqVVX8h3pG0UA_DhKG6ywuVNlLLuUtNUe VkfRx6pZXMkKZyD_SixgoTon2EGeF

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/scotland-the-best-educated-country-in-europe-claims-ons-report-9497645.html?amp

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[archie]

Youth unemployment Scotland https://www.gov.scot/news/labour-market-statistics-for-young-people-16-to-24-years-scotland/.

[archie]

Youth unemployment EU. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Youth_unemployment#:~:text=In%20th e%20EU%2C%20in%202021,EU%20unemployment%20ratio%20 of%207.1%20%25.

[archie]

And that's where pragmatism comes in. Scotland within the CTA would have Ireland as a friend, or do you think the Irish would want to have to show their passports to get into an independent Scotland?

Of course not. But we can't assume that pragmatism will trump accession criteria. I genuinely don't think that Scotland would have so much sway that it could pick and mix accession criteria. I have no doubt we'd we welcome, but not at the price of weakening the EU project, especially by creating precedent.

[Kato]

It was only 2007 the SNP wanted a referendum on leaving the EU.

SNP MP Angus Robertson said: "We'll trust the people while Gordon Brown will not trust the people. We are honour-bound to support a referendum."

Nothing wrong whatsoever with changing strategy to attract who you think will vote for it, but the SNP were nowhere near as pro EU as they seem to want to make out they are.Whoa, whoa whoa. Are you skipping to a fresh old set of obstacles here?

Earlier you posted that "the EU" would insist on Scotland using the Euro, whereas it turned out it was a quote in a UK establishment paper from a source who didn't have the guts to put his name to it. When posters on here showed scepticism you branded everyone "the same as the brexiteers".

Before you just ignore replies can you tell everyone, did "the EU" claim that Scotland would have to use the Euro? Or was a random anonymous quote?

Then you can take the brexiteery accusations back.



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[archie]

Whoa, whoa whoa. Are you skipping to a fresh old set of obstacles here?

Earlier you posted that "the EU" would insist on Scotland using the Euro, whereas it turned out it was a quote in a UK establishment paper from a source who didn't have the guts to put his name to it. When posters on here showed scepticism you branded everyone "the same as the brexiteers".

Before you just ignore replies can you tell everyone, did "the EU" claim that Scotland would have to use the Euro? Or was a random anonymous quote?

Then you can take the brexiteery accusations back.



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From the horse's mouth:

https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/euro/enlargement-euro-area/who-can-join-and-when_en#:~:text=All%20EU%20Member%20States%2C%20ex cept,known%20as%20%27convergence%20criteria%27.&text=Why%20are%20there%20conditions%20for%20entry% 20to%20the%20euro%20area%3F

[Kato]

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Youth_unemployment#:~:text=In%20th e%20EU%2C%20in%202021,EU%20unemployment%20ratio%20 of%207.1%20%25.....and?

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[archie]

....and?

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Because youth unemployment is higher in the EU then likely people would come to Scotland. Also cheaper than Ireland. But the underlying issue is why youth unemployment is a persistent issue in EU.

[JeMeSouviens]

And how would you do that?

Join the EU, perhaps?

[archie]

Join the EU, perhaps?

Well it implies a visa scene for rUK residents and an attractive tax system for business and individuals.

[Kato]

Because youth unemployment is higher in the EU then likely people would come to Scotland. Also cheaper than Ireland. But the underlying issue is why youth unemployment is a persistent issue in EU.

I wasn't part of the conversation which you are imagining I was part of.

Reply to those people please.

Just because their are several posters who are in favour indepence it doesn't mean they have a hive mind or have a monolithic set of opinions.

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[Santa Cruz]

Youth unemployment Scotland https://www.gov.scot/news/labour-market-statistics-for-young-people-16-to-24-years-scotland/.

That's 2020 stats you've linked. Youth employment rates have increased since then. (Page 2 gives percentages)


https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/statistics/2022/09/labour-market-statistics-for-16-to-24-year-olds-scotland-and-uk---july-2021-to-june-2022/documents/labour-market-statistics-for-16-to-24-year-olds-scotland-and-uk---july-2021-to-june-2022/labour-market-statistics-for-16-to-24-year-olds-scotland-and-uk---july-2021-to-june-2022/govscot%3Adocument/Labour%2BMarket%2BStatistics%2Bfor%2B16%2Bto%2B24% 2Byear%2Bolds%2B-%2BJ21J22.pdf

[ronaldo7]

Of course not. But we can't assume that pragmatism will trump accession criteria. I genuinely don't think that Scotland would have so much sway that it could pick and mix accession criteria. I have no doubt we'd we welcome, but not at the price of weakening the EU project, especially by creating precedent.

Having watched the EU in recent years in negotiations with the UK Gov, where things have chopped and changed. Rules seem to be able to be changed at a whim, but I've no doubt they'd follow the accession criteria. Saying that, I have every faith that a negotiation with Scotland will go swimmingly.

We've a bit to do before we get there though.

[archie]

Having watched the EU in recent years in negotiations with the UK Gov, where things have chopped and changed. Rules seem to be able to be changed at a whim, but I've no doubt they'd follow the accession criteria. Saying that, I have every faith that a negotiation with Scotland will go swimmingly.

We've a bit to do before we get there though.

I think the EU difference was due to being a member prior to many of the new requirements. Also, I suspect they were trying to keep us in. As for negotiations, just don't let grunt lead them.

[JeMeSouviens]

Well it implies a visa scene for rUK residents and an attractive tax system for business and individuals.

You don't necessarily have to undercut on tax if you are offering a route to EU citizenship for individuals and SM access for businesses.

[archie]

That's 2020 stats you've linked. Youth employment rates have increased since then. (Page 2 gives percentages)


https://www.gov.scot/binaries/content/documents/govscot/publications/statistics/2022/09/labour-market-statistics-for-16-to-24-year-olds-scotland-and-uk---july-2021-to-june-2022/documents/labour-market-statistics-for-16-to-24-year-olds-scotland-and-uk---july-2021-to-june-2022/labour-market-statistics-for-16-to-24-year-olds-scotland-and-uk---july-2021-to-june-2022/govscot%3Adocument/Labour%2BMarket%2BStatistics%2Bfor%2B16%2Bto%2B24% 2Byear%2Bolds%2B-%2BJ21J22.pdf

Thanks.

[archie]

You don't necessarily have to undercut on tax if you are offering a route to EU citizenship for individuals and SM access for businesses.
I guess it depends on personal commitment and a cost benefit analysis.

[Kato]

...

[ronaldo7]

Baked in decline is a big assertion. What do you base this on?

Only the Bank of England governor.

The UK is sliding towards a recession. Only six months ago, a strong recovery was expected, but the impact of the pandemic, the slow return to pre-Covid work patterns and soaring inflation driven by the Ukraine invasion have depressed the economy.

Last week the governor of the Bank of England, Andrew Bailey, warned that Britons are likely to suffer a deeper and longer downturn than other major industrialised nations. He also said inflation would be more severe and persistent.

Unique to the British experience is Brexit, which has imposed extra costs and restrictions on exporters to the EU and limited the supply of skilled labour. And after 10 years of austerity, publicly funded organisations entered the pandemic in a weak position and are now in an even worse state as they grapple with the rocketing cost of living and a shortage of workers.

But these are not the only reasons why the situation in the UK is so particularly bad. These charts illustrate the many overlapping issues that are holding the country back

[JeMeSouviens]

I guess it depends on personal commitment and a cost benefit analysis.

Well indeed. I'm not trying to suggest we attract all 60M+.

[archie]

I wasn't part of the conversation which you are imagining I was part of.

Reply to those people please.

Just because their are several posters who are in favour indepence it doesn't mean they have a hive mind or have a monolithic set of opinions.

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A wee bit aggressive there. I think I posted the wrong link then changed it.This is a fast moving thread.

[Kato]

From the horse's mouth:

https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/euro/enlargement-euro-area/who-can-join-and-when_en#:~:text=All%20EU%20Member%20States%2C%20ex cept,known%20as%20%27convergence%20criteria%27.&text=Why%20are%20there%20conditions%20for%20entry% 20to%20the%20euro%20area%3F

Post #21750


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[archie]

Well indeed. I'm not trying to suggest we attract all 60M+.

I know. But the benefits of being in the single market will have to outweigh being in rUK. I do think tax will be significant.

[Kato]

A wee bit aggressive there. I think I posted the wrong link then changed it.This is a fast moving thread.Ok. Sorry. I just got mixed up myself

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[grunt]

I think the EU difference was due to being a member prior to many of the new requirements. Also, I suspect they were trying to keep us in. Similarly, I suspect they'd be very keen to get a newly independent Scotland into the EU.


As for negotiations, just don't let grunt lead them.Hey! :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

You can choose to either believe it or not believe it and dismiss it as lies or untrue, it's your choice. But the parallels with Brexiteers immediately dismissing or questioning any story that doesn't paint the positive picture they want are all there.

There are similarities, but ours is an open minded and progressive leap. With teams of information. Brexit was a narrow, insular decision, made in the dark, with massive swathes of all out racism.

I’ve sure you’ve said in the past that things like this are often a leap of faith.

I know which way I’d like to jump.

J

[Kato]

Seems like Dougie Ross was using the same Times article as James in a feeble attempt to outfox Sturgeon.

Has he ever outfoxed anyone?

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1585592113433034752?t=1Uzv9Z70AZQmiTSF1f5tJw&s=19

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[Jack]

Seems like Dougie Ross was using the same Times article as James in a feeble attempt to outfox Sturgeon.

Has he ever outfoxed anyone?

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1585592113433034752?t=1Uzv9Z70AZQmiTSF1f5tJw&s=19

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It would seem there are more Douglas Ross's ignoring the evidence than meets the eye!

[Ozyhibby]

Seems like Dougie Ross was using the same Times article as James in a feeble attempt to outfox Sturgeon.

Has he ever outfoxed anyone?

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1585592113433034752?t=1Uzv9Z70AZQmiTSF1f5tJw&s=19

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Douglas Ross or James?[emoji6]


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[Kato]

Douglas Ross or James?[emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkTo give him his due James seems far more on the ball than the official Rangers linesman.

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[James310]

Seems like Dougie Ross was using the same Times article as James in a feeble attempt to outfox Sturgeon.

Has he ever outfoxed anyone?

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1585592113433034752?t=1Uzv9Z70AZQmiTSF1f5tJw&s=19

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Jeezo, The National? Not sure I can take anything seriously from a newspaper that clearly is so biased. That's how it works these days?

The problem for Sturgeon was she kept quoting countries already in the EU. I mean ultimately it comes down to what the EU rules are for *NEW* applications, they are pretty clear.

https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/joining-eu_en


"Any country that satisfies the conditions for membership can apply. These conditions are known as the ‘Copenhagen criteria’ and include a stable democracy and the rule of law, a functioning market economy and the acceptance of all EU legislation, including of the euro."

The SNP plan is saying they won't have to make any commitments, which is plainly wrong.

You know what though, it won't actually matter as there won't be a referendum anytime soon.

[Kato]

Jeezo, The National? Not sure I can take anything seriously from a newspaper that clearly is so biased. That's how it works these days?



Have The National created a fake video?

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[James310]

Have The National created a fake video?

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You obviously know I am just parroting the responses on here from people who seem to object to every single publication or organisation that is not spreading the message they want to hear.

[Ozyhibby]

Jeezo, The National? Not sure I can take anything seriously from a newspaper that clearly is so biased. That's how it works these days?

The problem for Sturgeon was she kept quoting countries already in the EU. I mean ultimately it comes down to what the EU rules are for *NEW* applications, they are pretty clear.

https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-history/joining-eu_en


"Any country that satisfies the conditions for membership can apply. These conditions are known as the ‘Copenhagen criteria’ and include a stable democracy and the rule of law, a functioning market economy and the acceptance of all EU legislation, including of the euro."

The SNP plan is saying they won't have to make any commitments, which is plainly wrong.

You know what though, it won't actually matter as there won't be a referendum anytime soon.

Wasn’t the Copenhagen criteria introduced in the 90’s long before a lot of these countries joined?


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[JeMeSouviens]

Wasn’t the Copenhagen criteria introduced in the 90’s long before a lot of these countries joined?


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:agree:


These membership criteria were laid down at the June 1993 European Council in Copenhagen, Denmark, from which they take their name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_criteria

[James310]

Wasn’t the Copenhagen criteria introduced in the 90’s long before a lot of these countries joined?


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Again though the point being Nicola Sturgeon has just signalled to the EU in her paper and again today she isn't serious about joining the Euro, one of the main building blocks and principals of the EU, and it of course being a criteria of joining the EU. The EU in the past has maybe not been as strict for members already in place, but won't be for *new* member applications.

I can't see many EU officials looking on today and thinking what great commitment there is from Scotland when she is telling them already she has zero intentions of fulfilling the criteria, not even pretending to maybe somehow fulfil the criteria but never actually do it. Not sure that was a wise strategic move if it came to any kind of negotiations. Already telling them you won't do it.

As I say it's all likely moot, there won't be a referendum anytime soon.

[Ozyhibby]

The EU in the past has maybe not been as strict for members already in place, but won't be for *new* member applications.



Source?


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[grunt]

I can't see many EU officials looking on today and thinking what great commitment there is from Scotland when she is telling them already she has zero intentions of fulfilling the criteria, not even pretending to maybe somehow fulfil the criteria but never actually do it. Not sure that was a wise strategic move.It's amazing how you come up with these insights into what the EU will think about SG announcements, while Sturgeon and her (presumed) army of advisers completely miss the potential impact. How can they be so dumb? We are blessed to have your input on our humble thread.


As I say it's all likely moot, there won't be a referendum anytime soon.If you're going to post this every time you mention the referendum, it might be easier to add it as your signature in your profile? Just a suggestion.

[James310]

Source?


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Source for having to join the Euro? It's in the rules. I am not saying anything that isn't in the rule book, unless you think Scotland will get a special deal.

But "experts" like Kirsty Hughes who is an Independence supporter has said Scotland would need to adopt the Euro, she repeated it again this morning. She also said Scotland would not get an opt out.

It's in the rules, and I thought maybe at least the SNP might have made some weak commitments to show they were serious about joining the EU, but no they have ruled it out completely and signalled it to the EU.

[Ozyhibby]

Source for having to join the Euro? It's in the rules. I am not saying anything that isn't in the rule book, unless you think Scotland will get a special deal.

But "experts" like Kirsty Hughes who is an Independence supporter has said Scotland would need to adopt the Euro, she repeated it again this morning. She also said Scotland would not get an opt out.

It's in the rules, and I thought maybe at least the SNP might have made some weak commitments to show they were serious about joining the EU, but no they have ruled it out completely and signalled it to the EU.

Where in the rules does it say that new applicants are to be treated differently from those already in?


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[James310]

It's amazing how you come up with these insights into what the EU will think about SG announcements, while Sturgeon and her (presumed) army of advisers completely miss the potential impact. How can they be so dumb? We are blessed to have your input on our humble thread.

If you're going to post this every time you mention the referendum, it might be easier to add it as your signature in your profile? Just a suggestion.

You think it's sensible to tell the EU you have no intention of meeting one of the main requirements for joining the EU before you even submit an application?

[James310]

Where in the rules does it say that new applicants are to be treated differently from those already in?


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Where in the rules does it say you don't need to adopt the Euro? (I can help you, it doesn't)

[Ozyhibby]

Where in the rules does it say you don't need to adopt the Euro? (I can help you, it doesn't)

Pretty sure it says in the rules that countries won’t be forced into the euro before they are ready.


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[JeMeSouviens]

Where in the rules does it say that new applicants are to be treated differently from those already in?


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They are literally the same rules that all the non-Euro EU members except Denmark are bound by.

[James310]

Pretty sure it says in the rules that countries won’t be forced into the euro before they are ready.


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Yes but what other new EU member has already stated it has zero intention of adopting the Euro? There is a difference between committing to it and never actually doing it and just plain dismissing it as something you will never do.

Have any of the current counties applying for EU membership said they have no intentions of adopting the Euro?

[Ozyhibby]

Yes but what other new EU member has already stated it has zero intention of adopting the Euro? There is a difference between committing to it and never actually doing it and just plain dismissing it as something you will never do.

Have any of the current counties applying for EU membership said they have no intentions of adopting the Euro?

Scotland will do whatever is needed to rejoin the EU. The people will demand it.


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[grunt]

You think it's sensible to tell the EU you have no intention of meeting one of the main requirements for joining the EU before you even submit an application?
You think the SG hasn't thought about this?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Dross is brilliant, keep him i say FMQs: Nicola Sturgeon destroys claim that Scotland must join the euro to get into EU | The National (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23082005.fmqs-nicola-sturgeon-destroys-claim-scotland-must-join-euro-get-eu/)

[Moulin Yarns]

FWIW, I don't think it is the dealbreaker some people think it is to adopt the Euro. I also don't see how difficult it would be to have your own currency in an independent Scotland while also accepting the Euro at the same time.

The hospitality industry would probably be over the moon if they were able to accept both currencies.

[Hibrandenburg]

But your a person not the electorate, many don't want the euro. Snp won't touch it as they don't have to pre independence.

The way the pound has fallen against the Euro since the last referendum makes me wonder why it's considered a difficult sell to the electorate.

[James310]

Scotland will do whatever is needed to rejoin the EU. The people will demand it.


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So that will be no other countries then.

[J-C]

Source for having to join the Euro? It's in the rules. I am not saying anything that isn't in the rule book, unless you think Scotland will get a special deal.

But "experts" like Kirsty Hughes who is an Independence supporter has said Scotland would need to adopt the Euro, she repeated it again this morning. She also said Scotland would not get an opt out.

It's in the rules, and I thought maybe at least the SNP might have made some weak commitments to show they were serious about joining the EU, but no they have ruled it out completely and signalled it to the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_the_eurozone#:~:text=All%20EU%20mem bers%20which%20have%20joined%20the%20bloc,the%20pr ovisions%20on%20the%20euro%20binding%20on%20the


Maybe a wee read at this eh?

[Hibrandenburg]

The Euro is a cornerstone of the European project. One of the key issues is free movement of capital and wider trade is the transaction costs and risks around currency. That's one reason why very few people in Britain have mortgages denominated in euros. So while it's true that new entrants don't have to join the euro right away (indeed they might not be allowed to) they do have to act on convergence criteria. This is not trivial. But it's true that we would not be required to adopt the euro on entry. But on the other hand, the idea that the EU would turn a blind eye to the current clear statement that we won't join the euro is just fanciful.

One reason but the main reason is pretty obvious as to why most mortgages are denominated in Sterling. I'm not sure how many mortgages in Denmark are denominated in Pounds.

[archie]

It's amazing how you come up with these insights into what the EU will think about SG announcements, while Sturgeon and her (presumed) army of advisers completely miss the potential impact. How can they be so dumb? We are blessed to have your input on our humble thread. My view is that the SG messaging isn't aimed at the EU at all. It's aimed at anchoring possible yes voters.

[archie]

One reason but the main reason is pretty obvious as to why most mortgages are denominated in Sterling. I'm not sure how many mortgages in Denmark are denominated in Pounds.
Exactly. There needs to be widespread adoption of the Euro to make the single market work.

[archie]

FWIW, I don't think it is the dealbreaker some people think it is to adopt the Euro. I also don't see how difficult it would be to have your own currency in an independent Scotland while also accepting the Euro at the same time.

The hospitality industry would probably be over the moon if they were able to accept both currencies.
They can do that now. What do you think would be different?

[Moulin Yarns]

One reason but the main reason is pretty obvious as to why most mortgages are denominated in Sterling. I'm not sure how many mortgages in Denmark are denominated in Pounds.

I remember someone on here who didn't want independence because they had a mortgage with Skipton Building Society and didn't want to have to exchange their scottish money to pay the mortgage!

I bank with Santander and don't have to save or pay in euros

[James310]

FWIW, I don't think it is the dealbreaker some people think it is to adopt the Euro. I also don't see how difficult it would be to have your own currency in an independent Scotland while also accepting the Euro at the same time.

The hospitality industry would probably be over the moon if they were able to accept both currencies.

Currency is way more than what money you use at a till.

[James310]

I remember someone on here who didn't want independence because they had a mortgage with Skipton Building Society and didn't want to have to exchange their scottish money to pay the mortgage!

I bank with Santander and don't have to save or pay in euros

😂 Tell me you don't understand a subject without telling me you don't understand a subject.

[Moulin Yarns]

They can do that now. What do you think would be different?

I dare you to turn up at Fishers Hotel in pitlochry and try to hand over a bundle of euros for your room or hetties tea room for a cuppa 😂😂😂

[Since90+2]

FWIW, I don't think it is the dealbreaker some people think it is to adopt the Euro. I also don't see how difficult it would be to have your own currency in an independent Scotland while also accepting the Euro at the same time.

The hospitality industry would probably be over the moon if they were able to accept both currencies.

By the time Scotland actually becomes independent cash will be almost obsolete. It's a total red herring.

[Jack]

FWIW, I don't think it is the dealbreaker some people think it is to adopt the Euro. I also don't see how difficult it would be to have your own currency in an independent Scotland while also accepting the Euro at the same time.

The hospitality industry would probably be over the moon if they were able to accept both currencies.

I'm pretty certain they can.

There's a lot of larger stores, like M&S, can do so already.

[Moulin Yarns]

By the time Scotland actually becomes independent cash will be almost obsolete. It's a total red herring.

I know, I've been meaning to check the percentage of cash transactions I had with my small business.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm pretty certain they can.

There's a lot of larger stores, like M&S, can do so already.

I get that, but I mean universal, in the corner shop or rural pub.

[archie]

I remember someone on here who didn't want independence because they had a mortgage with Skipton Building Society and didn't want to have to exchange their scottish money to pay the mortgage!

I bank with Santander and don't have to save or pay in eurosSantander will have a UK subsidiary.

[Stairway 2 7]

The way the pound has fallen against the Euro since the last referendum makes me wonder why it's considered a difficult sell to the electorate.

Either do I but I'm not the electorate. In the poll I put up 40% of yes voters were less likely to vote yes if we needed the euro. People with pensions and mortgages will be worried, I believe obviously unduly obviously.

People also won't want exchange fees when buying or selling from or purchasing whilst in England.

Best move is to just say we'll decide when independent, mental to touch a vote harmer now

[Stairway 2 7]

By the time Scotland actually becomes independent cash will be almost obsolete. It's a total red herring.

Not really you pay a conversion fee or a poor rate in most transactions when you purchase in a foreign currency

[archie]

By the time Scotland actually becomes independent cash will be almost obsolete. It's a total red herring.It's totally not a red herring.It's a fundamental underpinning of the economy.

[archie]

I get that, but I mean universal, in the corner shop or rural pub.

What do you mean? Business can accept any currency they like. The point is the exchange rate they set for that. You will see transaction costs factored into the exchange rate offered.

[archie]

I dare you to turn up at Fishers Hotel in pitlochry and try to hand over a bundle of euros for your room or hetties tea room for a cuppa 😂😂😂

Why? Because it's a foreign currency and they face transaction costs to turn it into sterling, which they need to pay their UK suppliers.

[Ozyhibby]

Why? Because it's a foreign currency and they face transaction costs to turn it into sterling, which they need to pay their UK suppliers.

Most importantly, tax is collected in Sterling. That’s what really underpins any currency.
It will be the same for the Scottish pound.


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[archie]

The way the pound has fallen against the Euro since the last referendum makes me wonder why it's considered a difficult sell to the electorate.
Around 12% I think. It's a difficult sell because people have mortgages in sterling. Either they refinance the morgage with a euro lender or they face risk and transaction fees. There is no requirement on their lender to accept any other currency than sterling.

[archie]

Most importantly, tax is collected in Sterling. That’s what really underpins any currency.
It will be the same for the Scottish pound.


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Tax is collected in the currency people are paid in.

[archie]

Where in the rules does it say that new applicants are to be treated differently from those already in?


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This is from the EU https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/euro/enlargement-euro-area/who-can-join-and-when_en#:~:text=All%20EU%20Member%20States%2C%20ex cept,known%20as%20%27convergence%20criteria%27.&te xt=Why%20are%20there%20conditions%20for%20entry%20 to%20the%20euro%20area%3F

[Ozyhibby]

This is from the EU https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/euro/enlargement-euro-area/who-can-join-and-when_en#:~:text=All%20EU%20Member%20States%2C%20ex cept,known%20as%20%27convergence%20criteria%27.&te xt=Why%20are%20there%20conditions%20for%20entry%20 to%20the%20euro%20area%3F

I read it. I can’t see where it says Scotland will be treated differently?


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[archie]

I read it. I can’t see where it says Scotland will be treated differently?


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All accession states must have a strategy to join the Euro. Do you seriously think that the EU will give Scotland a wink and say don't bother? The reason it's not automatic is that the EU won't let you join if it would put the Euro at risk.

[Stick]

I seem to remember from years ago that the EU president said that immediate acceptance of the Euro was not required, just that working towards adopting it was required, no time limit was made.

This is on the EU website, terms and conditions of membership:-

Member States are expected to co-ordinate their economic policies and are subject to the Stability and Growth Pact on fiscal surveillance. New Member States are also committed to complying with the criteria laid down in the Treaty in order to be able to adopt the euro in due course after accession. Until then, they will participate in the Economic and Monetary Union as a Member State with a derogation from the use of the euro and shall treat their exchange rates as a matter of common concern.

[James310]

I seem to remember from years ago that the EU president said that immediate acceptance of the Euro was not required, just that working towards adopting it was required, no time limit was made.

This is on the EU website, terms and conditions of membership:-

Member States are expected to co-ordinate their economic policies and are subject to the Stability and Growth Pact on fiscal surveillance. New Member States are also committed to complying with the criteria laid down in the Treaty in order to be able to adopt the euro in due course after accession. Until then, they will participate in the Economic and Monetary Union as a Member State with a derogation from the use of the euro and shall treat their exchange rates as a matter of common concern.

Correct, so saying straight up you have no intention of ever using the Euro doesn't really equate with the position you detail above.

[Kato]

Correct, so saying straight up you have no intention of ever using the Euro doesn't really equate with the position you detail above....and it also shows your post from earlier today was plain wrong.

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[Keith_M]

I seem to remember from years ago that the EU president said that immediate acceptance of the Euro was not required, just that working towards adopting it was required, no time limit was made.

This is on the EU website, terms and conditions of membership:-

Member States are expected to co-ordinate their economic policies and are subject to the Stability and Growth Pact on fiscal surveillance. New Member States are also committed to complying with the criteria laid down in the Treaty in order to be able to adopt the euro in due course after accession. Until then, they will participate in the Economic and Monetary Union as a Member State with a derogation from the use of the euro and shall treat their exchange rates as a matter of common concern.


That was my understanding as well, but happy to accept I'm wrong if they've changed their PoV on this one.

[Stick]

Correct, so saying straight up you have no intention of ever using the Euro doesn't really equate with the position you detail above.

Except being realistic, something any politician says, possibly many years before an application is made to the EU isn’t cast in stone. If it was then the Westminster government would be unworkable. So when we do eventually make an application to join, an undertaking to work towards acceptance of the Euro with no time limit would no doubt be acceptable. It might even be the case that we would indeed want to join the Euro at that time, especially the direction that the pond is now heading. The EU, are let’s be honest, pragmatic about what is realistic, and would be unlikely to block our entry because of any statements made years before.

[ronaldo7]

Except being realistic, something any politician says, possibly many years before an application is made to the EU isn’t cast in stone. If it was then the Westminster government would be unworkable. So when we do eventually make an application to join, an undertaking to work towards acceptance of the Euro with no time limit would no doubt be acceptable. It might even be the case that we would indeed want to join the Euro at that time, especially the direction that the pond is now heading. The EU, are let’s be honest, pragmatic about what is realistic, and would be unlikely to block our entry because of any statements made years before.

Spot on. 👍

[James310]

Except being realistic, something any politician says, possibly many years before an application is made to the EU isn’t cast in stone. If it was then the Westminster government would be unworkable. So when we do eventually make an application to join, an undertaking to work towards acceptance of the Euro with no time limit would no doubt be acceptable. It might even be the case that we would indeed want to join the Euro at that time, especially the direction that the pond is now heading. The EU, are let’s be honest, pragmatic about what is realistic, and would be unlikely to block our entry because of any statements made years before.

Don't disagree with any of that. As shown before any support for the Euro now means an immediate drop in support for Independence, but in the unlikely event of Independence that stance may well change as the vote will be over and done with.

Would be nice if Sturgeon was honest about it though.

[archie]

Except being realistic, something any politician says, possibly many years before an application is made to the EU isn’t cast in stone. If it was then the Westminster government would be unworkable. So when we do eventually make an application to join, an undertaking to work towards acceptance of the Euro with no time limit would no doubt be acceptable. It might even be the case that we would indeed want to join the Euro at that time, especially the direction that the pond is now heading. The EU, are let’s be honest, pragmatic about what is realistic, and would be unlikely to block our entry because of any statements made years before.

Yeah, but you still have to work towards it. They're not stupid. And there's all the other accession criteria.

[archie]

It's interesting all the 'debate' here. But the reality is that it's not about the EU. It's about an independence referendum. SG can't commit to anything around the EU. And that's so cynical it's almost painful

[Keith_M]

It's interesting all the 'debate' here. But the reality is that it's not about the EU. It's about an independence referendum. SG can't commit to anything around the EU. And that's so cynical it's almost painful


Took me two minutes to find this....


"What is the SNP’s position on rejoining the EU?
The SNP believe that EU membership delivers many social, economic and cultural benefits for individuals, businesses and communities across Scotland. We believe that the best way to build a more prosperous and equal Scotland is to be a full independent member of the EU.

On 23 June the people of Scotland voted decisively to remain within the European Union and we firmly believe that EU membership is the best option for Scotland.

Brexit undoubtedly changes the way that Scotland engages with the EU, but it will not change the EU’s importance to Scotland, nor our commitment to rejoining the EU as soon as possible.

By rejoining the EU we will create jobs and regain full access to the European Single Market, which is seven times the size of the UK.
We will prepare to rejoin the EU by keeping a close relationship with Europe. We will strengthen our Brussels base and make Scotland House the hub of our diplomatic representation across Europe."

https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-is-the-snp-s-position-on-rejoining-the-eu/

[archie]

Took me two minutes to find this....


"What is the SNP’s position on rejoining the EU?
The SNP believe that EU membership delivers many social, economic and cultural benefits for individuals, businesses and communities across Scotland. We believe that the best way to build a more prosperous and equal Scotland is to be a full independent member of the EU.

On 23 June the people of Scotland voted decisively to remain within the European Union and we firmly believe that EU membership is the best option for Scotland.

Brexit undoubtedly changes the way that Scotland engages with the EU, but it will not change the EU’s importance to Scotland, nor our commitment to rejoining the EU as soon as possible.

By rejoining the EU we will create jobs and regain full access to the European Single Market, which is seven times the size of the UK.
We will prepare to rejoin the EU by keeping a close relationship with Europe. We will strengthen our Brussels base and make Scotland House the hub of our diplomatic representation across Europe."

https://www.snp.org/policies/pb-what-is-the-snp-s-position-on-rejoining-the-eu/
And what does that add?

[xyz23jc]

All accession states must have a strategy to join the Euro. Do you seriously think that the EU will give Scotland a wink and say don't bother? The reason it's not automatic is that the EU won't let you join if it would put the Euro at risk.

Why would anyone in their right mind want to pick such a 'basket case' as Scotland.... FFS?

Let's see..!

:saltireflag:sauzee::giruy2::greengrin

[archie]

Why would anyone in their right mind want to pick such a 'basket case' as Scotland.... FFS?

Let's see..!

:saltireflag:sauzee::giruy2::greengrin
What does this mean?

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1585592113433034752?t=rFthX7olJoqKGl6B0MRi_g&s=19

Direct quote James on hibs net [emoji23]

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[Stairway 2 7]

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1585592113433034752?t=rFthX7olJoqKGl6B0MRi_g&s=19

Direct quote James on hibs net [emoji23]

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Groundhog day

[James310]

https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1585592113433034752?t=rFthX7olJoqKGl6B0MRi_g&s=19

Direct quote James on hibs net [emoji23]

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What are you talking about?

[Moulin Yarns]

Why? Because it's a foreign currency and they face transaction costs to turn it into sterling, which they need to pay their UK suppliers.

Right, so the answer is no. Outside of major stores in London you are unlikely to be able to spend euros to purchase anything.

Thanks for clearing that up

[archie]

Right, so the answer is no. Outside of major stores in London you are unlikely to be able to spend euros to purchase anything.

Thanks for clearing that up

But you didn't explain what you were wanting?

[Moulin Yarns]

But you didn't explain what you were wanting?

It was very clear from the examples I gave!!

A hotel room and a cup of tea in a hotel and tea room in pitlochry. I was very specific!! 🙄

[archie]

It was very clear from the examples I gave!!

A hotel room and a cup of tea in a hotel and tea room in pitlochry. I was very specific!! 🙄

I think what you are saying that you want two currencies running in parallel?

[Jack]

I think what you are saying that you want two currencies running in parallel?

Which already happens in many countries around the world. Particularly those close to the USA. So its not impossible and is unlikely to be very difficult.

[Stairway 2 7]

Which already happens in many countries around the world. Particularly those close to the USA. So its not impossible and is unlikely to be very difficult.

It really is, probably why it's not being suggested by anyone. We'll have either the Scottish pound pegged or not or the euro. I believe they said last month they weren't looking at euro and Scottish pound is the preference

[Ozyhibby]

It really is, probably why it's not being suggested by anyone. We'll have either the Scottish pound pegged or not or the euro. I believe they said last month they weren't looking at euro and Scottish pound is the preference

Pretty sure you have to go Scottish pound first before Euro anyway. And even if we do have to give commitment to join Euro, it appears the timetable for introduction is entirely in Scotland’s hands. We can stall it as long as we want/need.


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