Scottish Independence

[CapitalGreen]

They obviously lost, but the claim all England vote for far right parties is obviously baseless when over 10M voted for Labour and Jeremy Corbyn to be PM.

Who claimed all of England vote for far right parties?

[James310]

Who claimed all of England vote for far right parties?

Ok, the general perception is people in England don't vote for left leaning parties. Over 10M in England voted for a manifesto that was way more left than anything the SNP offer. So the claim England people have been brainwashed doesn't really add up when 10M people voted for Jeremy Corbyn to become Prime Minister.

[James310]

You wouldn't necessarily have to move job either if you didn't want to.

Berwick to Edinburgh on the train is 40 minutes. Not a bad commute if you live and work close enough to either station. Another expense to factor in to the decision though!

A 40 minute commute would be a dream for some people in London.

I don't see vast numbers of people moving so I don't think the SNP will cut the rate in the next few weeks, especially as discussed Labour win the next GE and likely reverse it in 2 years time.

[James310]

If theirs one thing we don't need, it's the Tories. Tired right wing tropes linked to the old firm who aren't really a thing anymore due to the Rangers being a new entity are so last decade.

Glad you've now moved to 50% as a win. 👍

50% is always a win, the thing is if the SNP get 50% then what do they need? Yep a referendum, the same thing they need today. If they get 49% then they have "lost" IndyRef2. That's why it's a big gamble to frame the GE as the de facto referendum.

[Jack]

Ok, the general perception is people in England don't vote for left leaning parties. Over 10M in England voted for a manifesto that was way more left than anything the SNP offer. So the claim England people have been brainwashed doesn't really add up when 10M people voted for Jeremy Corbyn to become Prime Minister.

About 2.5m less than voted for him in the previous election.

What went wrong?

[ronaldo7]

50% is always a win, the thing is if the SNP get 50% then what do they need? Yep a referendum, the same thing they need today. If they get 49% then they have "lost" IndyRef2. That's why it's a big gamble to frame the GE as the de facto referendum.

30 seats will be enough then. 👍

[degenerated]

A 40 minute commute would be a dream for some people in London.

I don't see vast numbers of people moving so I don't think the SNP will cut the rate in the next few weeks, especially as discussed Labour win the next GE and likely reverse it in 2 years time.Probably the same numbers as piled over the borders to buy cut price alcohol in Berwick and Carlisle.

[Ozyhibby]

Probably the same numbers as piled over the borders to buy cut price alcohol in Berwick and Carlisle.

Or went to England for New Years.


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[degenerated]

Or went to England for New Years.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI'd make anyone who did that enjoy the same level of benefits as those south of the border do. Charged for prescriptions, fees for further education, no free dental care for their kids...etc

They want parity, let them have it.

[Stairway 2 7]

I'd make anyone who did that enjoy the same level of benefits as those south of the border do. Charged for prescriptions, fees for further education, no free dental care for their kids...etc

They want parity, let them have it.
Bit extreme tbf

[degenerated]

Bit extreme tbfI don't think so, why should people who engineer their tax base to avoid paying for the better level of services expect to receive them.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/mcbrain-drain-to-england-will-be-a-costly-wake-up-call-brian-monteith-3855909

A Mcbrain drain.[emoji849]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/top-scottish-lawyer-roddy-dunlop-kc-would-consider-move-to-england-after-chancellors-mini-budget-tax-cuts

And more.

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[Stairway 2 7]

I don't think so, why should people who engineer their tax base to avoid paying for the better level of services expect to receive them.

You replied to someone saying went to England at new year. It seemed you were wanting them stripped of benefits. Do you mean people who moved to Berwick, because surely they wouldn't get free prescriptions ect anyway as living in England

[degenerated]

You replied to someone saying went to England at new year. It seemed you were wanting them stripped of benefits. Do you mean people who moved to Berwick, because surely they wouldn't get free prescriptions ect anyway as living in EnglandBased on my reply to you, what do you think I meant.

[Stairway 2 7]

Based on my reply to you, what do you think I meant.

I'm unsure as people paying tax down south surely wouldn't get the benefits of free prescriptions and university ect?

[James310]

About 2.5m less than voted for him in the previous election.

What went wrong?

Thanks for reminding me, so nearly 13M people voted for Jeremy Corbyn to be PM in 2017 so strengthens the claim that England is brainwashed voting for right parties is baseless.

[Stairway 2 7]

Thanks for reminding me, so nearly 13M people voted for Jeremy Corbyn to be PM in 2017 so strengthens the claim that England is brainwashed voting for right parties is baseless.

It's just used by nationalistic people who think their nation is superior. Scotland is more left leaning in general to England. But there is tories here and millions of left wing people in England. Its like when some couldn't accept that more Scots polled want the monarchy than don't, it goes against there utopian view

[James310]

30 seats will be enough then. ��

Well that's not the case, as John Swinney has said (after the obligatory gaffe)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/29/john-swinney-sows-confusion-over-snp-claims-on-independence-mandate


I don't think the SNP has ever got 50% or higher, even at peak SNP when they got 56 seats out of 59 in 2015 they just missed 50%. At the next GE they got less than 40%. It's a big gamble framing the GE as the next referendum.

[Jack]

Thanks for reminding me, so nearly 13M people voted for Jeremy Corbyn to be PM in 2017 so strengthens the claim that England is brainwashed voting for right parties is baseless.

As a trend I'd suggest it's the opposite, the Corbyn effect was just a blip and England are now back to their right wing tory norm.

[Ozyhibby]

As a trend I'd suggest it's the opposite, the Corbyn effect was just a blip and England are now back to their right wing tory norm.

We are all agreed that he lost, right?


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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-63032601?xtor=AL-72-%5Bpartner%5D-%5Bbbc.news.twitter%5D-%5Bheadline%5D-%5Bnews%5D-%5Bbizdev%5D-%5Bisapi%5D&at_custom3=%40BBCPolitics&at_custom2=twitter&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_campaign=64&at_medium=custom7&at_custom4=twitter

SG already saying they won’t match the Tory tax cuts. Good news.


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[ronaldo7]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/mcbrain-drain-to-england-will-be-a-costly-wake-up-call-brian-monteith-3855909

A Mcbrain drain.[emoji849]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/top-scottish-lawyer-roddy-dunlop-kc-would-consider-move-to-england-after-chancellors-mini-budget-tax-cuts

And more.

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It's that the same Brian Monteith who lives in France. 👀

[ronaldo7]

Well that's not the case, as John Swinney has said (after the obligatory gaffe)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/29/john-swinney-sows-confusion-over-snp-claims-on-independence-mandate


I don't think the SNP has ever got 50% or higher, even at peak SNP when they got 56 seats out of 59 in 2015 they just missed 50%. At the next GE they got less than 40%. It's a big gamble framing the GE as the next referendum.

The rules have been set for years. Whoever gets more seats wins. Whatever's said prior to the result is chaff. 😱

We've seen rules change over the years, so it's not beyond the wit of man to change them again.

[James310]

We are all agreed that he lost, right?


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I never said he won, but twice over 10M people in England voted for Jeremy Corbyn to be PM. That's not the actions of a country brainwashed into voting far right. I know it makes people feel better about themselves to label English people as some far right mob but the reality is and the facts prove otherwise. But if it makes you happy crack on.

[James310]

The rules have been set for years. Whoever gets more seats wins. Whatever's said prior to the result is chaff. 😱

We've seen rules change over the years, so it's not beyond the wit of man to change them again.

You need to take it up at your next branch meeting then, the communication must be getting confused as both Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney are saying a victory is only 50% or more of the vote share, not seats. They could not be more clear.

[Zambernardi1875]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/mcbrain-drain-to-england-will-be-a-costly-wake-up-call-brian-monteith-3855909

A Mcbrain drain.[emoji849]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/top-scottish-lawyer-roddy-dunlop-kc-would-consider-move-to-england-after-chancellors-mini-budget-tax-cuts

And more.

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Mr Dunlop said: “I’ve lived in Scotland all my days. I love this place. I do not want to leave. But if there is this level of tax difference, I’d have to consider it. Northumberland is nice, apparently.”

But I don’t want to contribute to a better fairer country and help, with my huge wages, the poor and less fortunate. Only cements the argument that these unionists are all “I’m alright jacks” and screams look at me I’m a ******

[Moulin Yarns]

I'd make anyone who did that enjoy the same level of benefits as those south of the border do. Charged for prescriptions, fees for further education, no free dental care for their kids...etc

They want parity, let them have it.

Why should people who go to England during a national holiday (new year) have to do that??


1 hate new year and have been going South at the end of December for a number of years. It's great, things are open!

[Zambernardi1875]

I never said he won, but twice over 10M people in England voted for Jeremy Corbyn to be PM. That's not the actions of a country brainwashed into voting far right. I know it makes people feel better about themselves to label English people as some far right mob but the reality is and the facts prove otherwise. But if it makes you happy crack on.

6 years ago and those numbers fell dramatically in the next election and would no doubt be lower again. Even the 3 wise monkeys know the direction England is heading and already has

[Moulin Yarns]

Well that's not the case, as John Swinney has said (after the obligatory gaffe)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/29/john-swinney-sows-confusion-over-snp-claims-on-independence-mandate


I don't think the SNP has ever got 50% or higher, even at peak SNP when they got 56 seats out of 59 in 2015 they just missed 50%. At the next GE they got less than 40%. It's a big gamble framing the GE as the next referendum.

It might be easier to get the 50% when all the tories migrate south to benefit from lower taxes, and commute 80 miles a day ( cost of which will negate any tax savings)

[James310]

6 years ago and those numbers fell dramatically in the next election and would no doubt be lower again. Even the 3 wise monkeys know the direction England is heading and already has

So why are Labour ahead in all the polls?

[Kato]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/mcbrain-drain-to-england-will-be-a-costly-wake-up-call-brian-monteith-3855909

A Mcbrain drain.[emoji849]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/top-scottish-lawyer-roddy-dunlop-kc-would-consider-move-to-england-after-chancellors-mini-budget-tax-cuts

And more.

Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWhat a load of Barry White.

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[Kato]

Mr Dunlop said: “I’ve lived in Scotland all my days. I love this place. I do not want to leave. But if there is this level of tax difference, I’d have to consider it. Northumberland is nice, apparently.”

But I don’t want to contribute to a better fairer country and help, with my huge wages, the poor and less fortunate. Only cements the argument that these unionists are all “I’m alright jacks” and screams look at me I’m a ******He can beat it.

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[Zambernardi1875]

So why are Labour ahead in all the polls?

You were speaking about Corbyn

[James310]

You were speaking about Corbyn

In the context of England is brainwashed and all support far right parties, they don't and the basic facts confirm this.

[Zambernardi1875]

In the context of England is brainwashed and all support far right parties, they don't and the basic facts confirm this.

Who said all?

[Rumble de Thump]

If England attracts the greediest and most unethical members of society like moths to a flame it's not going to be a very nice place to live.

[Keith_M]

Apparently there's mass protests in the streets in Germany because the Government is yet to follow it's UK counterpart and remove the top tax rate of 45%

Loads of them are now considering moving to England....

[James310]

Who said all?

Ok, nobody said all. But as S27 says there is a tendency to chuck whole groups of people into stereotype personas when it's way more complicated than that.

[ronaldo7]

You need to take it up at your next branch meeting then, the communication must be getting confused as both Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney are saying a victory is only 50% or more of the vote share, not seats. They could not be more clear.

They don't make the rules. They have an opinion on them.

If we all took what politicians said as gospel, Boris would be dead in a ditch.

[James310]

They don't make the rules. They have an opinion on them.

If we all took what politicians said as gospel, Boris would be dead in a ditch.

Erm...there are no rules for a de facto referendum as it doesn't exist! Your leaders are being very clear, it's 50% of votes not seats. Unless you don't believe them.

It's the SNP that is taking the gamble, it's totally at odds with the patient approach some seemed to be happy with.

[Ozyhibby]

Erm...there are no rules for a de facto referendum as it doesn't exist! Your leaders are being very clear, it's 50% of votes not seats. Unless you don't believe them.

It's the SNP that is taking the gamble, it's totally at odds with the patient approach some seemed to be happy with.

Your the only person who ever mentions it. There is a court case, a couple of years and probably another couple of prime ministers to work our way through first. Relax and see what happens.[emoji23]


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[ronaldo7]

Erm...there are no rules for a de facto referendum as it doesn't exist! Your leaders are being very clear, it's 50% of votes not seats. Unless you don't believe them.

It's the SNP that is taking the gamble, it's totally at odds with the patient approach some seemed to be happy with.

It's got nothing to do with whether I believe them. If we have a manifesto saying we'll have independence if we win in Scotland. That's it done. 😉

That's all dependent on the independence referendum of course.

[James310]

It's got nothing to do with whether I believe them. If we have a manifesto saying we'll have independence if we win in Scotland. That's it done. 😉

That's all dependent on the independence referendum of course.

What do you mean "that's it done"? If the SNP win 50.1% of the vote are you saying they declare Independence on the back of that, basically UDI?

If not what do you think will happen if the SNP win 50.1% of the vote? They will ask for.... another referendum, the exact same thing they want today.

What's the official party line on what happens next if the SNP win 50.1% of the vote? Seems really unclear.

[James310]

Your the only person who ever mentions it. There is a court case, a couple of years and probably another couple of prime ministers to work our way through first. Relax and see what happens.[emoji23]


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The leader of the SNP and First Minister announced it in Parliament. I am not surprised very few SNP supporters want to talk about it though, seems nobody knows what the actual strategy is.

[CapitalGreen]

In the context of England is brainwashed and all support far right parties, they don't and the basic facts confirm this.

To be honest if I was in your shoes John, I’d probably rather just pretend I’d been brainwashed rather than admit that I actually considered all options with a clear mind and decided that Boris Johnson’s Tory party were the right choice for me, my family and the country.

[James310]

To be honest if I was in your shoes John, I’d probably rather just pretend I’d been brainwashed rather than admit that I actually considered all options with a clear mind and decided that Boris Johnson’s Tory party were the right choice for me, my family and the country.

I was pretty clear he would be a disaster and I was correct.

I guess some nationalists don't like people questioning things, all a bit awkward. Best people like me just stay quiet.

I can feel the abuse is about to start so will drop out for now.

[marinello59]

The leader of the SNP and First Minister announced it in Parliament. I am not surprised very few SNP supporters want to talk about it though, seems nobody knows what the actual strategy is.

The strategy is a mess. No one party can dictate to everybody that a general election is only about one issue. Surely it’s not for any politician to decide which issue over rides all others. Covid (mismanagement) the economy, tax levels, the NHS, education, Government incompetence etc could all be candidates for the most important issue for many of us.
For me I will vote on what I see at the time as the best way of removing the Tories from power in Westminster so all UK citizens can enjoy a brighter future. I won’t be the only Independence supporter doing that.

[James310]

The strategy is a mess. No one party can dictate to everybody that a general election is only about one issue. Surely it’s not for any politician to decide which issue over rides all others. Covid (mismanagement) the economy, tax levels, the NHS, education, Government incompetence etc could all be candidates for the most important issue for many of us.
For me I will vote on what I see at the time as the best way of removing the Tories from power in Westminster so all UK citizens can enjoy a brighter future. I won’t be the only Independence supporter doing that.

This free thinking stance really will make you stand out you know. It is a mess though, but you will be hard pressed to find many SNP supporters admit it.

[ronaldo7]

This free thinking stance really will make you stand out you know. It is a mess though, but you will be hard pressed to find many SNP supporters admit it.

The only mess is where people don't respect democracy. You sounding off on whether a de facto referendum is legitimized is another level though. 👍

You said you weren't around until the October decision in the courts.

How things change eh.

[ronaldo7]

The strategy is a mess. No one party can dictate to everybody that a general election is only about one issue. Surely it’s not for any politician to decide which issue over rides all others. Covid (mismanagement) the economy, tax levels, the NHS, education, Government incompetence etc could all be candidates for the most important issue for many of us.
For me I will vote on what I see at the time as the best way of removing the Tories from power in Westminster so all UK citizens can enjoy a brighter future. I won’t be the only Independence supporter doing that.

Political parties can put whatever they want in their manifesto. Whether you vote for it is another matter.

Democracy.

[Stairway 2 7]

Political parties can put whatever they want in their manifesto. Whether you vote for it is another matter.

Democracy.

A general election can't be called a defacto referendum, that's just daft and I think they know that. They have a mandate to push for a referendum though and I hope the court sees that

[James310]

The only mess is where people don't respect democracy. You sounding off on whether a de facto referendum is legitimized is another level though. 👍

You said you weren't around until the October decision in the courts.

How things change eh.

I can't help myself when I see some of the ridiculous stuff that's posted.

It's a mess, it doesn't even stand up to basic scrutiny.

[marinello59]

Political parties can put whatever they want in their manifesto. Whether you vote for it is another matter.

Democracy.

I don’t disagree with that. What they can’t do is tell us a multi issue election only comes down to answering one question.
I am rather looking forward to seeing a one sentence manifesto from the SNP though, even Swinney will be hard pressed to go off message with that one. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

I don’t disagree with that. What they can’t do is tell us a multi issue election only comes down to answering one question.
I am rather looking forward to seeing a one sentence manifesto from the SNP though, even Swinney will be hard pressed to go off message with that one. :greengrin

I don’t think it will happen. It will be a GE just like all the others. Eventually though, there will be a second referendum.


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[ronaldo7]

I don’t disagree with that. What they can’t do is tell us a multi issue election only comes down to answering one question.
I am rather looking forward to seeing a one sentence manifesto from the SNP though, even Swinney will be hard pressed to go off message with that one. :greengrin

Just one line printed a thousand times. 😂

Nice to see some folk have fallen for the tory line of now is not the time.

[ronaldo7]

I can't help myself when I see some of the ridiculous stuff that's posted.

It's a mess, it doesn't even stand up to basic scrutiny.

As I said the ridiculous stuff is not respecting democracy.

[Hibrandenburg]

In the context of England is brainwashed and all support far right parties, they don't and the basic facts confirm this.

I don't know who said that they all vote far right parties, could it be you're making things up again James? Unless of course you consider the Tories to be a far right party, in that case there's an element of truth in your imaginary statement.

As for brain washing, I think it's perfectly fair to describe decades of lies and deceit from the right-wing press and political parties that resulted in Brexit and Boris Johnson winning red wall seats and gaining a massive majority in the house as brainwashing.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/mcbrain-drain-to-england-will-be-a-costly-wake-up-call-brian-monteith-3855909

A Mcbrain drain.[emoji849]

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/top-scottish-lawyer-roddy-dunlop-kc-would-consider-move-to-england-after-chancellors-mini-budget-tax-cuts

And more.

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I don't think Roddy has thought this one through. Move to England with many associated costs. Two years later the government changes to reinstate the tax regime. 😂

Maybe he'd move to Ireland then.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think Roddy has thought this one through. Move to England with many associated costs. Two years later the government changes to reinstate the tax regime. [emoji23]

Maybe he'd move to Ireland then.

Amazes me he had the brain power to become a top lawyer?


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[marinello59]

I don’t think it will happen. It will be a GE just like all the others. Eventually though, there will be a second referendum.


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:agree:

[marinello59]

Nice to see some folk have fallen for the tory line of now is not the time.

Maybe you should say that directly to who you think have done that. I have no idea why that is part of your reply to me.

[ronaldo7]

Maybe you should say that directly to who you think have done that. I have no idea why that is part of your reply to me.

😊

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.snp.org/the-snps-supreme-court-submission-on-the-independence-referendum/

SNP representation for up coming court case.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I can't help myself when I see some of the ridiculous stuff that's posted.

It's a mess, it doesn't even stand up to basic scrutiny.

You should try going on the main board to see what ridiculous stuff is posted, mind you, someone will need to show you where it is 🤔

[James310]

You should try going on the main board to see what ridiculous stuff is posted, mind you, someone will need to show you where it is 🤔

If you are anywhere near it no thanks.

[Moulin Yarns]

If you are anywhere near it no thanks.

Why not? You might learn something about hibs for a change.

[James310]

Why not? You might learn something about hibs for a change.

I know plenty thanks. Maybe you should post more here and you might learn some basic things about how things like funding under devolution works.

[ronaldo7]

https://www.snp.org/the-snps-supreme-court-submission-on-the-independence-referendum/

SNP representation for up coming court case.


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Covered all bases. From the Chagos to the Malvinas. 👍

[Ozyhibby]

Covered all bases. From the Chagos to the Malvinas. [emoji106]

Seems to focus on where international law clashes with domestic law which was kind of the way I thought it would go. I think although the case may be lost, the UK govt will have to concede there has to be a pathway to self determination in order to not risk losing the case. Although who knows, legal cases always seem to go in directions that don’t seem to follow logic.


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[Ozyhibby]

I don't think Roddy has thought this one through. Move to England with many associated costs. Two years later the government changes to reinstate the tax regime. [emoji23]

Maybe he'd move to Ireland then.

https://twitter.com/kennyaberdeen/status/1573598442429059073?s=46&t=ShVH2tVtbAW6m_kPiwrqzA

Someone who gets it.


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[Jack]

Any unionists care to illustrate a strong and stable uk and how wonderful the British pound is?

[Stairway 2 7]

Does scot gov want to stick with the pound post independence, genuine question. Surely it will tank post yes

[Ozyhibby]

Does scot gov want to stick with the pound post independence, genuine question. Surely it will tank post yes

Think official policy is for Scottish pound but will be pegged to sterling in order for a smooth transition. Eventually peg will be removed once new currency and central bank are established.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Think official policy is for Scottish pound but will be pegged to sterling in order for a smooth transition. Eventually peg will be removed once new currency and central bank are established.


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Sounds a nightmare, I'd fire to euro as soon as possible. That's not a vote winner so would do post independence

[James310]

Think official policy is for Scottish pound but will be pegged to sterling in order for a smooth transition. Eventually peg will be removed once new currency and central bank are established.


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I don't think it is. Andrew Wilson author of the Sustainable Growth Commission.

"We had actually begun our work *determined to recommend the early adoption of a Scottish currency pegged 1:1 with sterling. But when we subjected that to scrutiny and criticism the risks associated with doing that loomed large in our mind. In short, a peg would be *extremely difficult to defend with *limited inherited reserves so the Government would have to borrow big to boost the central bank balance sheet early if it wanted to do so."

In the Institute for Government report on the currency options for an Independent Scotland the pegging option was deemed by far the riskiest option due to the requirement to defend the peg.

I think the next paper on Indy is about currency though, so maybe more details soon.

[Hibrandenburg]

Any unionists care to illustrate a strong and stable uk and how wonderful the British pound is?

I'd prefer using the Tattie Scone as currency after the union breaks up, Scotland leaving the UK would be the final nail in the coffin of the pound.

[Stairway 2 7]

Thing is the euro has dropped almost as much against the dollar, its absolutely tanked this year. So the same arguments against pound has to be against euro too, can we not ask to join the dollar post independence 😆

[archie]

Thing is the euro has dropped almost as much against the dollar, its absolutely tanked this year. So the same arguments against pound has to be against euro too, can we not ask to join the dollar post independence 😆
This is a key point. The Fed in the US has gone very aggressively to dampen inflation through rate rises. That's why the dollar is gaining against most other countries. As oil is priced in dollars that is also a factor. That's not to excuse the crazy UK Government decisions, but there is awider story here.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220927/2b36234b614ebdc58830949c0e9d87ae.jpg

Strong pound = Scotland’s needs to stay in the union.
Weak pound = let that lesson for you Scotland, you can’t do this on your own.

Unionists are shameless.[emoji23]


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[Skol]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220927/2b36234b614ebdc58830949c0e9d87ae.jpg

Strong pound = Scotland’s needs to stay in the union.
Weak pound = let that lesson for you Scotland, you can’t do this on your own.

Unionists are shameless.[emoji23]


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You probably should read the full article as it overall takes a different stance and says the uk government action aids independence.

[Ozyhibby]

https://news.sky.com/story/spending-cuts-made-necessary-by-mini-budget-could-finish-nhs-former-bank-of-england-deputy-governor-sir-charlie-bean-says-12706584

Scotland won’t be able to protect our NHS when they wreck theirs.

https://twitter.com/devomatters/status/1574700439102259201?s=46&t=EMcTIMs-yfzyleJZqid0MQ

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[Stairway 2 7]

https://mobile.twitter.com/TorstenBell/status/1574859016416727048

TorstenBell
The bluntness of the
@IMFNews
criticism of UK economic policy is nearly as unorthodox as the policy itself
- don’t do large untargeted fiscal splurges
- don’t increase inequality (calls on govt to reverse the 45p cut)
Never read anything like it
https://reuters.com/world/uk/imf-says-uk-fiscal-measures-will-likely-increase-inequality-urges-rethink-2022-09-27/

[archie]

I don't think Roddy has thought this one through. Move to England with many associated costs. Two years later the government changes to reinstate the tax regime. 😂

Maybe he'd move to Ireland then.I notice he clarified his point. The issue isn't so much people leaving but people not coming because of the tax regime. Cumulatively that could be bad for the economy. Whatever your view on tax policy the differential is a legitimate issue.

[Ozyhibby]

I notice he clarified his point. The issue isn't so much people leaving but people not coming because of the tax regime. Cumulatively that could be bad for the economy. Whatever your view on tax policy the differential is a legitimate issue.

Are you saying the SG should follow Kwarting and Truss?


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[grunt]

I notice he clarified his point. The issue isn't so much people leaving but people not coming because of the tax regime. Cumulatively that could be bad for the economy. Whatever your view on tax policy the differential is a legitimate issue.
With the greatest respect I disagree.

[archie]

Are you saying the SG should follow Kwarting and Truss?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNot at all, but it would be foolish not to consider consequences, unintended or otherwise.

[archie]

With the greatest respect I disagree.
Disagree to what? That it is an issue or s legitimate issue?

[wookie70]

Think official policy is for Scottish pound but will be pegged to sterling in order for a smooth transition. Eventually peg will be removed once new currency and central bank are established.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The way it is going we could use Prison Currency as a pound will have the worth of a single cigarette. I saw a meme suggesting a currency based on Tattie Scones as they may likely be more stable than the Pound.

I'd far rather Peg against the Euro myself and also ditch the Royal Family but it is understandable why those things are being left to post indi.

[grunt]

Disagree to what? That it is an issue or s legitimate issue?It's a personal view, but if someone makes a decision about where to live based primarily on how much or how little they are asked to contribute to social taxes which are designed to help those who are less well off, then frankly I'd rather they didn't live in my country.

[Kato]

It's a personal view, but if someone makes a decision about where to live based primarily on how much or how little they are asked to contribute to social taxes which are designed to help those who are less well off, then frankly I'd rather they didn't live in my country.Agreed 100%

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[archie]

It's a personal view, but if someone makes a decision about where to live based primarily on how much or how little they are asked to contribute to social taxes which are designed to help those who are less well off, then frankly I'd rather they didn't live in my country.
Really? So if we need oncologists you wouldn't look at ways to attract them and address barriers to them coming?

[Ozyhibby]

The way it is going we could use Prison Currency as a pound will have the worth of a single cigarette. I saw a meme suggesting a currency based on Tattie Scones as they may likely be more stable than the Pound.

I'd far rather Peg against the Euro myself and also ditch the Royal Family but it is understandable why those things are being left to post indi.

I personally would move to the euro but I can understand why it’s not policy just now. I think that’s what we’ll do though once Indy is secure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

Really? So if we need oncologists you wouldn't look at ways to attract them and address barriers to them coming?
:confused:

[WhileTheChief..]

Any unionists care to illustrate a strong and stable uk and how wonderful the British pound is?

Are you looking for folk to argue with since pretty much everyone on this thread recently is in agreement?

[degenerated]

Really? So if we need oncologists you wouldn't look at ways to attract them and address barriers to them coming?The average salary for oncologists in Scotland appears to be around 75k, the extra tax of 2 and a bit grand is not going to be much of a barrier when you factor in house prices, council tax, better services, free tuition for their kids etc.

I would think that the UKs immigration policy is probably a bigger barrier to people wanting to live and work in Scotland than the extra 6p tax band on the 1% that earn over 150k a year.

[WeeRussell]

Are you looking for folk to argue with since pretty much everyone on this thread recently is in agreement?

We’re all agreed on independence? What have I missed 😁

Presumably King James 03 has left the building?

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/BBCScotNine/status/1574856328308264978

Someone needs to tell Ian Murray that his party have already done a deal with Plaid Cymru.

MARK Drakeford has defended Welsh Labour’s co-operation agreement with the pro-independence Plaid Cyrmu.

Following last year’s election, the two parties thrashed out a three year deal to "address issues which take the greatest political and policy effort to resolve".

Wales's First Minister said that while they did not agree on everything, they focussed "on those areas where progressive parties can agree."

He told delegates at Labour's conference in Liverpool that "no party has a monopoly on good or progressive ideas.”

But it comes just weeks after rumours that Sir Keir Starmer was going to change the party’s constitution to permanently rule out a coalition with the SNP.

[archie]

The average salary for oncologists in Scotland appears to be around 75k, the extra tax of 2 and a bit grand is not going to be much of a barrier when you factor in house prices, council tax, better services, free tuition for their kids etc.

I would think that the UKs immigration policy is probably a bigger barrier to people wanting to live and work in Scotland than the extra 6p tax band on the 1% that earn over 150k a year.
So not an issue then? Btw, every policy has unintended consequences. I support free tuition and student grants. But the consequence of the current position is that places for students from Scotland are limited as foreign students pay more. Is that ok?

[archie]

:confused:????

[degenerated]

So not an issue then? Btw, every policy has unintended consequences. I support free tuition and student grants. But the consequence of the current position is that places for students from Scotland are limited as foreign students pay more. Is that ok?I'm glad we seem to agree that the tax isn't the issue you thought it was. :Greengrin

[ronaldo7]

It looks like things are taking a nasty turn with our Unionist faction. Nasty nationalists.

A CAMPAIGN trailer owned by an independence activist has been burned down outside his home.

Ian McNeil was woken by fire engines outside his house in Glasgow at half-past four on the morning of September 18, the eighth anniversary of the 2014 referendum on Scottish independence.

[archie]

I'm glad we seem to agree that the tax isn't the issue you thought it was. :Greengrin

It was a question - but you knew that.

[archie]

It's a personal view, but if someone makes a decision about where to live based primarily on how much or how little they are asked to contribute to social taxes which are designed to help those who are less well off, then frankly I'd rather they didn't live in my country.I've been reflecting on your post. This implies that you think someone coming to live here must agree with the Government. Is that right?

[grunt]

I've been reflecting on your post. This implies that you think someone coming to live here must agree with the Government. Is that right?
No.

[Kato]

I've been reflecting on your post. This implies that you think someone coming to live here must agree with the Government. Is that right?I agreed with grunt. I don't see it as having agreeing with the Govt but they should be invested in having some sort of social contract and be happy to contribute to that.

If people move to England for low taxation purposes does that mean they have to agree with the Govt.

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[archie]

No.
So how does that square with your earlier comment?

[archie]

I agreed with grunt. I don't see it as having agreeing with the Govt but they should be invested in having some sort of social contract and be happy to contribute to that.

If people move to England for low taxation purposes does that mean they have to agree with the Govt.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

So how do we enter in to this 'social contract's?

[Ozyhibby]

Countries with more progressive taxation system than Scotland, seem to have no problem attracting immigrants?
And since when we’re the right interested in attracting immigrants anyway?


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[Kato]

So how do we enter in to this 'social contract's?Errm, by paying any tax due to be paid which then allows the govt to put it back into society.

I realise it's been a while since such fanciful notions were invoked in this country but I didn't realise the actual concept had been forgotten.

Do you need me to explain "society" to you?

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[grunt]

So how does that square with your earlier comment?I think my earlier comment was quite clear.

[archie]

Errm, by paying any tax due to be paid which then allows the govt to put it back into society.

I realise it's been a while since such fanciful notions were invoked in this country but I didn't realise the actual concept had been forgotten.

Do you need me to explain "society" to you?

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkThat's a really kind offer. I'd welcome that thanks.

[Kato]

That's a really kind offer. I'd welcome that thanks.Google is friend Archie.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[archie]

Google is friend Archie.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkI don't mind if you use google - it's fine!

[archie]

I think my earlier comment was quite clear.
If I can paraphrase, you don't want people in 'your' country who don't share your views on taxation. As taxes are set by a government, it implies that you don't want people to come here who don't agree with the government. Now your later statement imples it's not the disagreeing with the government but a wider 'values' based view. Is that right?

[Kato]

I don't mind if you use google - it's fine!What exactly is it you are cracking on about?

Do you not like paying tax?

Do you have to agree with the govt of the country you might come to live in?

Do you think there should be a social contract between money earners and the population of the country the live in?

The cryptic sh*t above isn't funny BTW.

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[archie]

What exactly is it you are cracking on about?

Do you not like paying tax?

Do you have to agree with the govt of the country you might come to live in?

Do you think there should be a social contract between money earners and the population of the country the live in?

The cryptic sh*t above isn't funny BTW.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkOk - you cited the social contract - a philosphical notion that was developed to justify autocratic rule in the 17th century. Now the Hobbesian stuff was later refined by other thinkers, notably Locke. But the underlying point is that we give up freedoms in return for protections etc. That probably reflects a reality of how we live, but has been critiqued on a number of levels. We don't sign up - by the act of being born we enter into the social contract. So validation has to come another way. I suspect that you would say that came from elections. I think that's true, but there are a number of issues which test that. The poll tax was legitimate in that it was implemented by a legitimately elected government. But it was widely opposed, as evidenced by the 'don't pay' campaign. Under what appears to be your thinking the poll tax protesters were wrong, because of the expression of the social contract through elections. You could argue that the poll tax breached the social contract, but how do we know that? As it happens I think that people should pay tax and I agree with a progressive tax system. But it is legitimate to question judgements that governments makeand I don't think you can silence criticism by citing 'the social contract' without a clearer exposition of what you actually mean.

As for the 'cryptic sh*t' maybe don't patronise people just because you don't agree with them?

[Kato]

Ok - you cited the social contract - a philosphical notion that was developed to justify autocratic rule in the 17th century. Now the Hobbesian stuff was later refined by other thinkers, notably Locke. But the underlying point is that we give up freedoms in return for protections etc. That probably reflects a reality of how we live, but has been critiqued on a number of levels. We don't sign up - by the act of being born we enter into the social contract. So validation has to come another way. I suspect that you would say that came from elections. I think that's true, but there are a number of issues which test that. The poll tax was legitimate in that it was implemented by a legitimately elected government. But it was widely opposed, as evidenced by the 'don't pay' campaign. Under what appears to be your thinking the poll tax protesters were wrong, because of the expression of the social contract through elections. You could argue that the poll tax breached the social contract, but how do we know that? As it happens I think that people should pay tax and I agree with a progressive tax system. But it is legitimate to question judgements that governments makeand I don't think you can silence criticism by citing 'the social contract' without a clearer exposition of what you actually mean.

As for the 'cryptic sh*t' maybe don't patronise people just because you don't agree with them?Aye, cheers.

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[grunt]

If I can paraphrase, you don't want people in 'your' country who don't share your views on taxation. That's not what I said. See below.


As taxes are set by a government, it implies that you don't want people to come here who don't agree with the government. That's not what I said. See below.


I've been reflecting on your post. This implies that you think someone coming to live here must agree with the Government. Is that right?That's not what I said. See below.


Now your later statement imples it's not the disagreeing with the government but a wider 'values' based view. Is that right?That's not exactly what I said. See below. But actually, now you've made me revisit this discussion, this is closer to what I was saying.


It's a personal view, but if someone makes a decision about where to live based primarily on how much or how little they are asked to contribute to social taxes which are designed to help those who are less well off, then frankly I'd rather they didn't live in my country.Oh, and it's a personal view which I don't ask or expect others to agree with.

[Zambernardi1875]

I’d go a step further and if you’re voting tory in Scotland you shouldn’t be allowed all the benefits living here gives you. No free prescription, bus pass, free education etc etc.

[archie]

I’d go a step further and if you’re voting tory in Scotland you shouldn’t be allowed all the benefits living here gives you. No free prescription, bus pass, free education etc etc.
Seriously - even though their taxes help pay for these things?

[archie]

That's not what I said. See below.

That's not what I said. See below.

That's not what I said. See below.

That's not exactly what I said. See below. But actually, now you've made me revisit this discussion, this is closer to what I was saying.

Oh, and it's a personal view which I don't ask or expect others to agree with.Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[Zambernardi1875]

Seriously - even though their taxes help pay for these things?

I’d say tories were more of a hindrance than a help

[archie]

I’d say tories were more of a hindrance than a helpI know this isn't serious, but that's nearly 600,000 voters you would deny services to. What next, no services for people who don't pay tax?

[Zambernardi1875]

I know this isn't serious, but that's nearly 600,000 voters you would deny services to. What next, no services for people who don't pay tax?

If they vote Tory they can pay for it

[James310]

I know this isn't serious, but that's nearly 600,000 voters you would deny services to. What next, no services for people who don't pay tax?

I think he is serious.

[archie]

If they vote Tory they can pay for itBut they are paying for it!

[archie]

If they vote Tory they can pay for itAnd how would you know? You're at the wind up!

[Stairway 2 7]

I’d go a step further and if you’re voting tory in Scotland you shouldn’t be allowed all the benefits living here gives you. No free prescription, bus pass, free education etc etc.

Pretty fascist opinions you have. Vote my way or no benefits, weird.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/business/consumer/cost-of-living/fifth-of-scots-in-serious-financial-difficulty-amid-housing-crash-3860351

Scotsman reporting that Scotland is being hit harder than England by the cost of living squeeze.


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[Paul1642]

I’d go a step further and if you’re voting tory in Scotland you shouldn’t be allowed all the benefits living here gives you. No free prescription, bus pass, free education etc etc.

Very extreme opinion. Only those who vote the correct way shall receive anything from this government. Putin would be proud of a policy like that.

[StevieC]

Really? So if we need oncologists you wouldn't look at ways to attract them and address barriers to them coming?

Are you in an oncologists WhatsApp group where this has been discussed? 🤔

[degenerated]

https://www.scotsman.com/business/consumer/cost-of-living/fifth-of-scots-in-serious-financial-difficulty-amid-housing-crash-3860351

Scotsman reporting that Scotland is being hit harder than England by the cost of living squeeze.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHow can that be with those broad shoulders of the union.

[archie]

Are you in an oncologists WhatsApp group where this has been discussed? 🤔No.

[Zambernardi1875]

Very extreme opinion. Only those who vote the correct way shall receive anything from this government. Putin would be proud of a policy like that.

It’s easy for pensioners to vote Tory in Scotland but not succumb to the hardships tory policy brings. Easy picking up there free prescriptions and bud travel though.

[CropleyWasGod]

It’s easy for pensioners to vote Tory in Scotland but not succumb to the hardships tory policy brings. Easy picking up there free prescriptions and bud travel though.

So, based on your previous suggestion, should we round up all pensioners and transport them somewhere?

Asking for a few on here 😀

[archie]

It’s easy for pensioners to vote Tory in Scotland but not succumb to the hardships tory policy brings. Easy picking up there free prescriptions and bud travel though.Why do you think pensioners are not subject to 'hardships tory policy brings'?

[Zambernardi1875]

Why do you think pensioners are not subject to 'hardships tory policy brings'?

Are you unintentionally being thick or just trying so hard to disagree you’re not reading the posts. Look I get the Tory voters on here will just jump in with words like fascism and putin because they can’t construct a decent argument against the statements as they know deep down I have a valid point.

[Moulin Yarns]

Are you unintentionally being thick or just trying so hard to disagree you’re not reading the posts. Look I get the Tory voters on here will just jump in with words like fascism and putin because they can’t construct a decent argument against the statements as they know deep down I have a valid point.

I take issue with the assertion that pensioners in Scotland voted tory, as someone who is in that demographic I have never, and never will, vote tory!!!

[Zambernardi1875]

I take issue with the assertion that pensioners in Scotland voted tory, as someone who is in that demographic I have never, and never will, vote tory!!!

I absolutely did not say every pensioner in Scotland vote Tory 😂

[archie]

Are you unintentionally being thick or just trying so hard to disagree you’re not reading the posts. Look I get the Tory voters on here will just jump in with words like fascism and putin because they can’t construct a decent argument against the statements as they know deep down I have a valid point.I'm certainly not being intentionally thick. And I'm not a tory voter. But the idea that pensioners are somehow insulated from Tory policy because of bus passes and free prescriptions is frankly odd. Some of the issues some pensioners face include:

- fixed incomes which leave them vulnerable to price shocks, such as inflation
- pensioners tend to be at home a lot more than working people and may have health conditions, which means they use more energy. With energy prices exploding and a fixed income that puts pensioners incomes under more stress.
- while pensioners who have bought their home most likely don't have a mortgage, council tax is not related to income for most people. This can be a real issue for people when they retire as income falls and council tax liability remains.
- Pensioners inevitably have more health issues than the general population, which again can add to costs - need for more heating etc.

It's not just me saying it: https://www.ageuk.org.uk/scotland/latest-news/2022/march/new-figures-reveal-same-sad-story-of-pensioner-poverty-in-scotland/

I'm surprised this is seen as controversial or stupid.

[James310]

Are you unintentionally being thick or just trying so hard to disagree you’re not reading the posts. Look I get the Tory voters on here will just jump in with words like fascism and putin because they can’t construct a decent argument against the statements as they know deep down I have a valid point.

You are actually being serious then?

Let's take your "valid point" further then, so a woman in her 30s is diagnosed with cancer, she has 2 young children under 5. She also voted Tory at the last election, she cannot afford the life saving operation she needs or the cancer treatment as well as it costs tens of thousands, despite being a tax payer herself your point is she should just die and her children be left without a mother because she voted Tory? How would you have identified her as Tory, maybe some kind of marking or badge she has to wear?

Is that your valid point?

[Zambernardi1875]

You are actually being serious then?

Let's take your "valid point" further then, so a woman in her 30s is diagnosed with cancer, she has 2 young children under 5. She also voted Tory at the last election, she cannot afford the life saving operation she needs or the cancer treatment as well as it costs tens of thousands, your point is she should just die and her children be left without a mother because she voted Tory? How would you have identified her as Tory, maybe some kind of marking or badge she has to wear?

Is that your valid point?

Before getting cancer she would’ve already seen the imposes hardships on herself by voting Tory when having kids so no doubt would’ve changed.

[James310]

Before getting cancer she would’ve already seen the imposes hardships on herself by voting Tory when having kids so no doubt would’ve changed.

I am not sure that answer makes much sense.

Anyway, despite paying her taxes should she just be left to die because she voted Tory?

Is this the new and welcoming inclusive country you want to build?

[CropleyWasGod]

Before getting cancer she would’ve already seen the imposes hardships on herself by voting Tory when having kids so no doubt would’ve changed.

If she changes her vote, does she get to have the treatment?

[Zambernardi1875]

I am not sure that answer makes much sense.

Anyway, despite paying her taxes should she just be left to die because she voted Tory?

Is this the new and welcoming inclusive country you want to build?

Ah fantastic so now we finally get somewhere with you.

Vote Tory and a unionist which brings untold death destruction and misery to millions of people in the uk. Yet you get on the moral high horse about a woman with 2 kids and cancer.

What you do by voting Tory and no is continue to heap misery to millions of people just like that woman.

Not nice is it.

So next time you and the rest of the unionists on here bleat and moan about the snp just remember that woman and what you’re vote does to people not as fortunate as yourself

Because the way the Tory’s and the uk are going the next thing to be scrapped is the nhs so everyone will have to pay for treatment.

[James310]

Ah fantastic so now we finally get somewhere with you.

Vote Tory and a unionist which brings untold death destruction and misery to millions of people in the uk. Yet you get on the moral high horse about a woman with 2 kids and cancer.

What you do by voting Tory and no is continue to heap misery to millions of people just like that woman.

Not nice is it.

So next time you and the rest of the unionists on here bleat and moan about the snp just remember that woman and what you’re vote does to people not as fortunate as yourself

You are not answering the question, I was taking your "valid point" further. I suspect you would be quite happy for her to die because of how she voted. I am still intrigued as to how you would identify Tory voters by the way.

Luckily you are an extremist, very few Independence supporters will support such an extreme opinion. Have political differences by all means but I see very few people (well none) advocating the kind of extremist policies you are suggesting.

[archie]

Ah fantastic so now we finally get somewhere with you.

Vote Tory and a unionist which brings untold death destruction and misery to millions of people in the uk. Yet you get on the moral high horse about a woman with 2 kids and cancer.

What you do by voting Tory and no is continue to heap misery to millions of people just like that woman.

Not nice is it.

So next time you and the rest of the unionists on here bleat and moan about the snp just remember that woman and what you’re vote does to people not as fortunate as yourself

Because the way the Tory’s and the uk are going the next thing to be scrapped is the nhs so everyone will have to pay for treatment.This is unhinged. No voters deserve to die! I'm sure that you are angry and frustrated, but this isn't really winning friends and influencing people. If people came on here and argued that every yes voter deserved what they got because they would have wrecked Scotland had yes won then they would rightly be shot down. By all means debate the issues,but this? BTW, the NHS is devolved to Scotland.

[marinello59]

Before getting cancer she would’ve already seen the imposes hardships on herself by voting Tory when having kids so no doubt would’ve changed.

You are doing a great job of uniting Yes and No voters on this thread. . :greengrin

[ACLeith]

I take issue with the assertion that pensioners in Scotland voted tory, as someone who is in that demographic I have never, and never will, vote tory!!!

Z1875 needs to step away for a bit. I find myself in agreement with James310 on this and as an independence voting republican who has never voted Tory in the 55 years since i got the vote, I am very confused.

[Zambernardi1875]

You are not answering the question, I was taking your "valid point" further. I suspect you would be quite happy for her to die because of how she voted. I am still intrigued as to how you would identify Tory voters by the way.

Luckily you are an extremist, very few Independence supporters will support such an extreme opinion. Have political differences by all means but I see very few people (well none) advocating the kind of extremist policies you are suggesting.

You’re completely, maybe intentionally, missing the point.

See you’re woman with 2 kids and cancer. She’s effected by people like you, in the future she won’t be a minority case, everyone will have to pay for treatment. So when you come on here moaning about the snp and Scottish independence just remember what consequences voting Tory and no involves because up till now it’s been all about
“**** everyone else I’m alright Jack”

[Zambernardi1875]

You are doing a great job of uniting Yes and No voters on this thread. . :greengrin

😂

[Stairway 2 7]

Are you unintentionally being thick or just trying so hard to disagree you’re not reading the posts. Look I get the Tory voters on here will just jump in with words like fascism and putin because they can’t construct a decent argument against the statements as they know deep down I have a valid point.

Your a rude man eh. For someone who's argument here is the silliest ive seen here in years and probably disagreed by almost everyone I bet, you are some man to be throwing out accusations of who is dim

[archie]

You are doing a great job of uniting Yes and No voters on this thread. . :greengrinI'm seeing a trend on discussion fora that if anyone questions or challenges a view then they are called thick or mendacious. I guess it's linked to over two years of personal and economic stress. It appears to be getting worse at the moment. Maybe too much bad news sending people over the edge?

[ACLeith]

You are doing a great job of uniting Yes and No voters on this thread. . :greengrin

He is. Where can I get help?

[James310]

You’re completely, maybe intentionally, missing the point.

See you’re woman with 2 kids and cancer. She’s effected by people like you, in the future she won’t be a minority case, everyone will have to pay for treatment. So when you come on here moaning about the snp and Scottish independence just remember what consequences voting Tory and no involves because up till now it’s been all about
“**** everyone else I’m alright Jack”

That's a reasonable point about the future of the NHS, it deserves wider debate. But it still doesn't get away from the fact you are advocating an extremist policy of withholding life saving treatment and lots of other things for Scottish tax paying citizens all because of who they voted for.

As I say how would you identify Tory voters to enact this policy?

You don't have to answer, maybe let's just leave it there for now.

[Stairway 2 7]

That's a reasonable point about the future of the NHS, it deserves wider debate. But it still doesn't get away from the fact you are advocating an extremist policy of withholding life saving treatment and lots of other things for Scottish tax paying citizens all because of who they voted for.

As I say how would you identify Tory voters to enact this policy?

You don't have to answer, maybe let's just leave it there for now.

Blue star on the jacket

[James310]

Blue star on the jacket

What if they just rip the star off, something more permanent maybe? Can't think what though.

[Zambernardi1875]

That's a reasonable point about the future of the NHS, it deserves wider debate. But it still doesn't get away from the fact you are advocating an extremist policy of withholding life saving treatment and lots of other things for Scottish tax paying citizens all because of who they voted for.

As I say how would you identify Tory voters to enact this policy?

You don't have to answer, maybe let's just leave it there for now.

Finally, that’s is my whole point James,

the next stage of play for the tories is to dis abandon the nhs.

You you now see the actions on what voting Tory and no has on people, like the hypothetical woman with cancer? Of course she gets the treatment, no people won’t be made to wear badges. I’m just sick of Unionist on here going on and on about how bad independence will be, when as you’ve just unintentionally walked into you’re own trap, this is the reality of the future of the uk if you keep voting Tory and no.

[Jack]

I think Zambernardi1875 has a point but maybe badly made. Or he has reeled in the unionists hook, line and sinker! Job well done 😉

Tory voters are enabling a tory government that is decimating public services and it will get to point where only those that can afford to pay privately will be able to get health treatment, be able to travel and such other luxuries like eating that we take for granted, or at least used to. Zambernardi1875 is just jumping the gun a bit.

[Berwickhibby]

That's a reasonable point about the future of the NHS, it deserves wider debate. But it still doesn't get away from the fact you are advocating an extremist policy of withholding life saving treatment and lots of other things for Scottish tax paying citizens all because of who they voted for.

As I say how would you identify Tory voters to enact this policy?

You don't have to answer, maybe let's just leave it there for now.

Got my tailor knocking up a red Star of David ✡️ (being a Labour voter) will I still receive treatment?

[James310]

Got my tailor knocking up a red Star of David ✡️ (being a Labour voter) will I still receive treatment?

50% discount for Labour voters.

[CropleyWasGod]

50% discount for Labour voters.

That sounds pro-Semitic to me.

Starmer out.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think Zambernardi1875 has a point but maybe badly made. Or he has reeled in the unionists hook, line and sinker! Job well done 😉

Tory voters are enabling a tory government that is decimating public services and it will get to point where only those that can afford to pay privately will be able to get health treatment, be able to travel and such other luxuries like eating that we take for granted, or at least used to. Zambernardi1875 is just jumping the gun a bit.

Nah defending people not getting benefits and treatments due to who they vote for is a bad look, be less partizan step back and realise its ******g vile

[archie]

I think Zambernardi1875 has a point but maybe badly made. Or he has reeled in the unionists hook, line and sinker! Job well done 😉

Tory voters are enabling a tory government that is decimating public services and it will get to point where only those that can afford to pay privately will be able to get health treatment, be able to travel and such other luxuries like eating that we take for granted, or at least used to. Zambernardi1875 is just jumping the gun a bit.But is is more nuanced than that and we need the debate. If you put Fergus Ewing and Alex Neil in a room, then beyond independence I doubt they would agree on anything. Both served in the Cabinet. The current president if the SNP advocated NHS privatisation. Politics in Scotland aren't as one dimensional as some would claim.

[James310]

But is is more nuanced than that and we need the debate. If you put Fergus Ewing and Alex Neil in a room, then beyond independence I doubt they would agree on anything. Both served in the Cabinet. The current president if the SNP advocated NHS privatisation. Politics in Scotland aren't as one dimensional as some would claim.

The President of the SNP Mike Russell may have changed his mind but this is a quote from his book, Grasping the Thistle.

"We would encourage the private sector to compete with established NHS hospitals, clinics and other services. We would encourage NHS management and staff to buy out existing NHS facilities and services under favourable financial terms and join the private sector we would require NHS facilities that remained in government ownership to be run at a profit however modest. Those that failed to maintain profitability over a reasonable time period would be privatised.”

The President of the SNP?

Wait until you hear what he had to say about the civil service and education!

[grunt]

The President of the SNP Mike Russell may have changed his mind ...
:greengrin

[James310]

:greengrin

It's quite a turnaround though you have to admit. On education he said direct funding of schools, colleges and universities would be replaced by a voucher system where “the consumer” would “be able to force new provision onto the market by means of their purchasing power.” A key benefit of this would be that parents "may find that the choice of private education easier to afford.”

He wanted massive tax cuts, abolishing inheritance and corporation tax and cutting income tax by a quarter.

It's all in here.

Grasping the Thistle: How Scotland Must React to the Three Key Challenges of the Twenty First Century https://amzn.eu/d/fkHLzIu

Hard to believe he had these views not that long ago and of course thinks the total opposite now....

[Ozyhibby]

All this denial of services chat is nonsense. Everyone is entitled to any service in Scotland no matter who you voted for.
Keep voting Tory and there will be a lot less services in the first place, mind you. It’s personal choice though.


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[archie]

But is is more nuanced than that and we need the debate. If you put Fergus Ewing and Alex Neil in a room, then beyond independence I doubt they would agree on anything. Both served in the Cabinet. The current president if the SNP advocated NHS privatisation. Politics in Scotland aren't as one dimensional as some would claim.Just to add, on this board Ozyhibby is a keen proponent of a low tax economy, something that would be firmly opposed by other yes supporters.

[Ozyhibby]

It's quite a turnaround though you have to admit. On education he said direct funding of schools, colleges and universities would be replaced by a voucher system where “the consumer” would “be able to force new provision onto the market by means of their purchasing power.” A key benefit of this would be that parents "may find that the choice of private education easier to afford.”

He wanted massive tax cuts, abolishing inheritance and corporation tax and cutting income tax by a quarter.

It's all in here.

Grasping the Thistle: How Scotland Must React to the Three Key Challenges of the Twenty First Century https://amzn.eu/d/fkHLzIu

Hard to believe he had these views not that long ago and of course thinks the total opposite now....

The SNP ( like most parties) has people out with the mainstream of the party.
Unlike other parties, we don’t put them in charge.


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[Jack]

The President of the SNP Mike Russell may have changed his mind but this is a quote from his book, Grasping the Thistle.

"We would encourage the private sector to compete with established NHS hospitals, clinics and other services. We would encourage NHS management and staff to buy out existing NHS facilities and services under favourable financial terms and join the private sector we would require NHS facilities that remained in government ownership to be run at a profit however modest. Those that failed to maintain profitability over a reasonable time period would be privatised.”

The President of the SNP?

Wait until you hear what he had to say about the civil service and education!

When the SNP came to power all those years ago they made it virtually impossible for the creeping privatisation of the NHS we see in England.

NHS Scotland do/did use private facilities to help clear waiting lists but it's nothing on the scale of England.

[James310]

The SNP ( like most parties) has people out with the mainstream of the party.
Unlike other parties, we don’t put them in charge.


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Mike Russell was the Cabinet Secretary for Education from 2009 to 2014, he was the Cabinet Secretary for Constitution Affairs and Government Business from 2018 to 2020. He also held various other posts like Minister for Environment and he was voted as SNP President in 2020.

[ronaldo7]

I'm seeing a trend on discussion fora that if anyone questions or challenges a view then they are called thick or mendacious. I guess it's linked to over two years of personal and economic stress. It appears to be getting worse at the moment. Maybe too much bad news sending people over the edge?

Bayonetting nationalists was all the rage at a time in the not too distant past, (see labour MPs)

Unionists have moved on to burning trailers these days.

It's getting angrier by the week.

[archie]

Bayonetting nationalists was all the rage at a time in the not too distant past, (see labour MPs)

They've moved on to burning trailers these days.

It's getting angrier by the week.Labour MPs have been burning trailers - wow!

[Zambernardi1875]

Nah defending people not getting benefits and treatments due to who they vote for is a bad look, be less partizan step back and realise its ******g vile

Jack knows 😉. You still are clueless to the point I was making, it had nothing to do with not getting treatment if voting Tory. But he fell for it and hung himself

[grunt]

It's quite a turnaround though you have to admit.
A. Man changes his mind.

Or:

B. Man has senior role in political party whose clearly stated policies don't reflect something he wrote about 16 years ago.

I'm not sure what the story is here.

[Ozyhibby]

Mike Russell was the Cabinet Secretary for Education from 2009 to 2014, he was the Cabinet Secretary for Constitution Affairs and Government Business from 2018 to 2020. He also held various other posts like Minister for Environment and he was voted as SNP President in 2020.

So not in charge then?


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[James310]

When the SNP came to power all those years ago they made it virtually impossible for the creeping privatisation of the NHS we see in England.

NHS Scotland do/did use private facilities to help clear waiting lists but it's nothing on the scale of England.

The NHS is always a key battle ground, I may be alone but I have always thought that it would be political suicide to start charging at the point of use, any party doing this would surely be voted out of office pretty quickly and the opposition party would offer to restore any services and win a landslide victory.

NHS funding across Scotland and England is I believe at record highs. £153BN in England and £16BN in Scotland, in Scotland that's a rise of 5.3% on the previous year.

[James310]

So not in charge then?


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Well as Cabinet Secretary of his department yes he was. Isn't the Cabinet Secretary of Education in charge of Education?

[ronaldo7]

Labour MPs have been burning trailers - wow!

Edited. 😆

[James310]

A. Man changes his mind.

Or:

B. Man has senior role in political party whose clearly stated policies don't reflect something he wrote about 16 years ago.

I'm not sure what the story is here.

He was in the SNP when he wrote the book. I am sure he very likely believes a considerable amount of what he wrote.

[ronaldo7]

So not in charge then?


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Is Annie Wells in charge of the Tories then. 😂

[grunt]

He was in the SNP when he wrote the book. I am sure he very likely believes a considerable amount of what he wrote.
Still not sure what your point is. How does this affect the SNP's current policies on health and education which seem to have nothing to do with what he wrote about 16 years ago. Are you suggesting that the SNP has a secret agenda to privatise the NHS in Scotland?

[James310]

Still not sure what your point is. How does this affect the SNP's current policies on health and education which seem to have nothing to do with what he wrote about 16 years ago. Are you suggesting that the SNP has a secret agenda to privatise the NHS in Scotland?

No, just following up on the point Archie was making about how it's not as black and white as it seems. That's all. 👍

[grunt]

FMQs


https://youtu.be/ko2FYh0MAkM

[archie]

Bayonetting nationalists was all the rage at a time in the not too distant past, (see labour MPs)

Unionists have moved on to burning trailers these days.

It's getting angrier by the week.
Of course we don't know that. There was a Tory councillor who kept getting firebombed. The finger was pointed at nationalists, but it seems there was a planning dispute behind it. But I guess we see what we want to see.

[archie]

Edited. 😆You're slipping. I thought you would have said how can you find one!

[archie]

Still not sure what your point is. How does this affect the SNP's current policies on health and education which seem to have nothing to do with what he wrote about 16 years ago. Are you suggesting that the SNP has a secret agenda to privatise the NHS in Scotland?But the other point is that there is a very wide range of views in the yes movement. I cited alex Neil and Fergus Ewing as those with left and right leaning views.

[Jack]

The SNP is a broad church and has been for decades. It's not surprising individuals have had views and opinions that are outside the box so to speak.

It's not unique to SNP either and is not necessarily a bad thing.

Labour used to be a fairly broad church and was when it had its more successful runs in power.

I'm not sure the torys ever have. In my lifetime its always been about fleecing the poor to line their pockets.

[ronaldo7]

You're slipping. I thought you would have said how can you find one!

To busy deflecting the bayonets 😂

[archie]

The SNP is a broad church and has been for decades. It's not surprising individuals have had views and opinions that are outside the box so to speak.

It's not unique to SNP either and is not necessarily a bad thing.

Labour used to be a fairly broad church and was when it had its more successful runs in power.

I'm not sure the torys ever have. In my lifetime its always been about fleecing the poor to line their pockets.Isn't the point that when people who have served in government have such diametrically opposed views (apart from independence) that it's harder to get a coherent narrative as to what they actually believe?

[Moulin Yarns]

Z1875 needs to step away for a bit. I find myself in agreement with James310 on this and as an independence voting republican who has never voted Tory in the 55 years since i got the vote, I am very confused.

I know, weird, isn't it 😁

[Jack]

Isn't the point that when people who have served in government have such diametrically opposed views (apart from independence) that it's harder to get a coherent narrative as to what they actually believe?

How long have the SNP been in power?

I'd humbly suggest it's the diversity within the party as a whole keeps them nimble on their feet. The fact that some people within the party don't think the machine is nimble enough probably serves to keep their eye on the prize.

[grunt]

Isn't the point that when people who have served in government have such diametrically opposed views (apart from independence) that it's harder to get a coherent narrative as to what they actually believe?
Are you suggesting that you are unclear about what SNP policies are?

[archie]

Are you suggesting that you are unclear about what SNP policies are?More the post independence vision.

[grunt]

More the post independence vision.
Happy to help.

https://www.snp.org/policies/

[Ozyhibby]

More the post independence vision.

I would say from experience that the SNP have a vision of Scotland post Indy that is close to Denmark or Norway’s model rather than what Ireland have done. That’s not to say that that’s what happens of course. There will be regular elections which could of course change the direction of travel. Anas Sarwar could become first minister and who knows what his vision for it will be? But if you want an idea of what the SNP want then I would say look over the North Sea rather than the Irish Sea.


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[archie]

Happy to help.

https://www.snp.org/policies/>Is that the post independence vision? How does the Growth Comission fit with this?

[grunt]

>Is that the post independence vision? How does the Growth Comission fit with this?

Suggest you ask your local SNP MP / MSP.

[ronaldo7]

I would say from experience that the SNP have a vision of Scotland post Indy that is close to Denmark or Norway’s model rather than what Ireland have done. That’s not to say that that’s what happens of course. There will be regular elections which could of course change the direction of travel. Anas Sarwar could become first minister and who knows what his vision for it will be? But if you want an idea of what the SNP want then I would say look over the North Sea rather than the Irish Sea.


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It's the Irish sea for Anas. Bowler hats and sashes.

[J-C]

It's a personal view, but if someone makes a decision about where to live based primarily on how much or how little they are asked to contribute to social taxes which are designed to help those who are less well off, then frankly I'd rather they didn't live in my country.

👏

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/hmtreasury/status/1575493522265759744?s=46&t=7_pJfwl6_I45_55wdvxRDQ

It’s all about London for the UK govt.


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[Jones28]

https://twitter.com/hmtreasury/status/1575493522265759744?s=46&t=7_pJfwl6_I45_55wdvxRDQ

It’s all about London for the UK govt.


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The first reply to that tweet absolutely destroys it anyway.

[heretoday]

Oh balls to independence. Martin Lewis should be PM of the whole UK and he'll sort everything out.
It's about the economy.

[cabbageandribs1875]

just some of protests/marches from various groups around the UK today Edinburgh=indy, Cardiff=indy, Dublin= conference on irish reunification

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/309210885_416295517330446_5072318463122034954_n.jp g?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=YHwE4ekVdAoAX-Ezph3&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT9WKtxT2GiZf0w_DVw0o985SDFanVEaKOnN9gNqwfg-xg&oe=633D1C2A

[J-C]

just some of protests/marches from various groups around the UK today Edinburgh=indy, Cardiff=indy, Dublin= conference on irish reunification

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/309210885_416295517330446_5072318463122034954_n.jp g?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=YHwE4ekVdAoAX-Ezph3&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT9WKtxT2GiZf0w_DVw0o985SDFanVEaKOnN9gNqwfg-xg&oe=633D1C2A


Nothing at all on the BBC web page about the rally for independence in Edinburgh yesterday, it's as if it didn't happen.

[Moulin Yarns]

just some of protests/marches from various groups around the UK today Edinburgh=indy, Cardiff=indy, Dublin= conference on irish reunification

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/309210885_416295517330446_5072318463122034954_n.jp g?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=YHwE4ekVdAoAX-Ezph3&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT9WKtxT2GiZf0w_DVw0o985SDFanVEaKOnN9gNqwfg-xg&oe=633D1C2A

Where did the Edinburgh march start and finish?


Reason I ask is the photo is the march heading up the high St whereas the video has them heading down.


https://twitter.com/AUOBNOW/status/1576179564115791873?t=yJmJsr5yW4tSFWy6vwBywg&s=19


7,000 according to AUOB

[Stairway 2 7]

Where did the Edinburgh march start and finish?


Reason I ask is the photo is the march heading up the high St whereas the video has them heading down.


https://twitter.com/AUOBNOW/status/1576179564115791873?t=yJmJsr5yW4tSFWy6vwBywg&s=19


7,000 according to AUOB

All grouped at Johnson terrace and went down the mile

[degenerated]

Where did the Edinburgh march start and finish?


Reason I ask is the photo is the march heading up the high St whereas the video has them heading down.


https://twitter.com/AUOBNOW/status/1576179564115791873?t=yJmJsr5yW4tSFWy6vwBywg&s=19


7,000 according to AUOBDecent turnout considering that AUOB became so entwined with the Albanauts. Their visceral hatred of the SNP has had a negative impact on turnouts at these marches.

[SHODAN]

When's the next opinion poll? Will be interesting to see if it's taken a Liz bounce too.

[gbhibby]

https://twitter.com/hmtreasury/status/1575493522265759744?s=46&t=7_pJfwl6_I45_55wdvxRDQ

It’s all about London for the UK govt.


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If SNP do the same in Scotland it will help more people per capita. Have you looked at the house prices in the central belt.

[Moulin Yarns]

When's the next opinion poll? Will be interesting to see if it's taken a Liz bounce too.

There were 2 published on Friday.

Labour 46% cons 27%

And

Labour 55% cons 23%

[makaveli1875]

When's the next opinion poll? Will be interesting to see if it's taken a Liz bounce too.

Of course it has , I’m probably 1 of the least likely yes voters on here and even I’m seriously considering it .

[J-C]

There were 2 published on Friday.

Labour 46% cons 27%

And

Labour 55% cons 23%


I think he means independence poll.

[superfurryhibby]

Nothing at all on the BBC web page about the rally for independence in Edinburgh yesterday, it's as if it didn't happen.

Incredibly poor coverage from the BBC. They can ram their claims of impartiality.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Nothing at all on the BBC web page about the rally for independence in Edinburgh yesterday, it's as if it didn't happen.

had a look at the BBC main page earlier, nothing so i thought i would look at the Scotland page, nothing, looked at the BBC Wales page and there's an article on the YES Wales march


Where did the Edinburgh march start and finish?


Reason I ask is the photo is the march heading up the high St whereas the video has them heading down.


https://twitter.com/AUOBNOW/status/1576179564115791873?t=yJmJsr5yW4tSFWy6vwBywg&s=19


7,000 according to AUOB


yeah from the other photos/vids they were definitely going down the High street, all the ones i've saw were starting from outside st giles...i think


there's been a huge reduction since the Albanites went to one gathering with their idiotic anti-snp placards

[grunt]

Even if the Supreme Court OK a referendum, Liz Truss will block it. What now, Scottish Govt?

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1576970611297234944?s=20&t=-EvCzsFlnnfn4Hqbdo7cuQ

[Steven79]

Even if the Supreme Court OK a referendum, Liz Truss will block it. What now, Scottish Govt?

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1576970611297234944?s=20&t=-EvCzsFlnnfn4Hqbdo7cuQ
It's time they showed some fight as we appear toothless.

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[Ozyhibby]

It's time they showed some fight as we appear toothless.

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That’s it knackered because she would never u-turn.[emoji849]


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[Keith_M]

Even if the Supreme Court OK a referendum, Liz Truss will block it. What now, Scottish Govt?

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1576970611297234944?s=20&t=-EvCzsFlnnfn4Hqbdo7cuQ



Liz Turnaround?

[DaveF]

Even if the Supreme Court OK a referendum, Liz Truss will block it. What now, Scottish Govt?

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1576970611297234944?s=20&t=-EvCzsFlnnfn4Hqbdo7cuQ


I thought all the unionists on here used the 'generation' thing against Salmond? Now Truss is claiming it very clearly. She is an absolute trumpet.

[James310]

It's time they showed some fight as we appear toothless.

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Don't look at the SNP. The SNP Conference takes place on Saturday and it's the things not on the agenda rather than what's on it that is most interesting. Nothing at all on Independence, currency, Central Banks, borders and trading and joining the EU. The conference of a party expecting a referendum in 12 months time?

[Moulin Yarns]

Don't look at the SNP. The SNP Conference takes place on Saturday and it's the things not on the agenda rather than what's on it that is most interesting. Nothing at all on Independence, currency, Central Banks, borders and trading and joining the EU. The conference of a party expecting a referendum in 12 months time?



I don't suppose you have considered some of the things that are on the agenda?



resolutions on homelessness, renewable energy, domestic energy savings, and raising the school starting age



I think that's called doing the day job 😁


BTW, Independence is discussed on Sunday, I take it you didn't get that far 🙄

[James310]

I don't suppose you have considered some of the things that are on the agenda?



resolutions on homelessness, renewable energy, domestic energy savings, and raising the school starting age



I think that's called doing the day job 😁

That's great and all very worthwhile, just find it odd that the SNPs aim and the reason it was formed was for Independence and despite being supposedly 12 months away from another referendum they are not debating and discussing what will be the main talking points. If SNP and Indy supporters are comfortable with that then great.

[Moulin Yarns]

That's great and all very worthwhile, just find it odd that the SNPs aim and the reason it was formed was for Independence and despite being supposedly 12 months away from another referendum they are not debating and discussing what will be the main talking points. If SNP and Indy supporters are comfortable with that then great.

See my edit. 😁

[ronaldo7]

Don't look at the SNP. The SNP Conference takes place on Saturday and it's the things not on the agenda rather than what's on it that is most interesting. Nothing at all on Independence, currency, Central Banks, borders and trading and joining the EU. The conference of a party expecting a referendum in 12 months time?

We're supposed to listen to a tory telling us how and what to discuss at conference. 😂😂😂

Get your own house in order.

[James310]

We're supposed to listen to a tory telling us how and what the discuss at conference. 😂😂😂

Get your own house in order.

Tory's are a shambles, I would be delighted if they all resigned and had a General Election next month.

But this thread is about Independence.

[ronaldo7]

Tory's are a shambles, I would be delighted if they all resigned and had a General Election next month.

But this thread is about Independence.

Sure you would. 😂

[Jack]

That's great and all very worthwhile, just find it odd that the SNPs aim and the reason it was formed was for Independence and despite being supposedly 12 months away from another referendum they are not debating and discussing what will be the main talking points. If SNP and Indy supporters are comfortable with that then great.

Are you ragin? 😆

[James310]

Are you ragin? 😆

Delighted, shows they are not really serious about it. Surely it should be Indy supporters raging, but oddly they all seem quite happy and again won't dare critise.

[Ozyhibby]

Delighted, shows they are not really serious about it. Surely it should be Indy supporters raging, but oddly they all seem quite happy and again won't dare critise.

There is a court case pending. Why would we be anything other than patient and wait and see the outcome? There are no shortcuts. We stand by the rule of law. Let the unionists defend the denial of democracy.


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[James310]

There is a court case pending. Why would we be anything other than patient and wait and see the outcome? There are no shortcuts. We stand by the rule of law. Let the unionists defend the denial of democracy.


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And if the court case fails it's into de facto referendum time, an election could be called at anytime.

But as I say if Indy supporters are comfortable and judging by the reaction on here they are then👍

I just thought some Indy supporters might be a bit miffed about a SNP Conference not talking and debating what were the main reasons they lost IndyRef1 and what will be the main talking points in any future referendum.

[Just Alf]

And if the court case fails it's into de facto referendum time, an election could be called at anytime.

But as I say if Indy supporters are comfortable and judging by the reaction on here they are then[emoji106]

I just thought some Indy supporters might be a bit miffed about a SNP Conference not talking and debating what were the main reasons they lost IndyRef1 and what will be the main talking points in any future referendum.I get a feeling that if they'd not done what every other party does (day job stuff) and left it all.to the end and the supporting fringe meetings rather than putting indy related stuff there you'd have complained about that as well.... you have mentioned 'getting on with the day job' on here previously.

[Ozyhibby]

I get a feeling that if they'd not done what every other party does (day job stuff) and left it all.to the end and the supporting fringe meetings rather than putting indy related stuff there you'd have complained about that as well.... you have mentioned 'getting on with the day job' on here previously.

I think having the best public services in the UK has left James with nothing else to complain about other than lack of progress on Indy. I guess there is a couple of late boats but when it comes to wasting money, that’s not in the same league as the UK govt.


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[James310]

I think having the best public services in the UK has left James with nothing else to complain about other than lack of progress on Indy. I guess there is a couple of late boats but when it comes to wasting money, that’s not in the same league as the UK govt.


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Having the best public services is kind of expected when you have by far the best funded public services in the UK. I am not sure all public services are better, but they should be, Education stats I think show England performing better than Scotland. But why would you want to give up having the best funded public services in the UK, up to 20% higher a few years ago and give up billions of pounds that help fund things like our NHS etc. If there is some plan to replace the billions in lost revenue then I have yet to see one.

(And no Scotland doesn't pay for things like HS2 and Crossrail etc)

My point on lack of progress is an observation, I thought Indy supporters would not be particularly happy that the SNP don't seem to want to discuss the things that lost them IndyRef1 and will be big talking points in any IndyRef2 if it happens, looks like I am wrong here and majority seem comfortable with largely ignoring it.

[Ozyhibby]

Having the best public services is kind of expected when you have by far the best funded public services in the UK. I am not sure all public services are better, but they should be, Education stats I think show England performing better than Scotland. But why would you want to give up having the best funded public services in the UK, up to 20% higher a few years ago and give up billions of pounds that help fund things like our NHS etc. If there is some plan to replace the billions in lost revenue then I have yet to see one.

(And no Scotland doesn't pay for things like HS2 and Crossrail etc)

My point on lack of progress is an observation, I thought Indy supporters would not be particularly happy that the SNP don't seem to want to discuss the things that lost them IndyRef1 and will be big talking points in any IndyRef2 if it happens, looks like I am wrong here and majority seem comfortable with largely ignoring it.

Public services are better funded in our small independent neighbours than they are in Scotland. Being better than England isn’t the limit of our ambition.

Personally I would say the Yes campaign is looking better prepared for indyref 2 than better together 2.


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[Bostonhibby]

I think having the best public services in the UK has left James with nothing else to complain about other than lack of progress on Indy. I guess there is a couple of late boats but when it comes to wasting money, that’s not in the same league as the UK govt.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYou can buy an awful lot of ferries for £65bn.

Maybe that's what will happen with that money when Kwakers and Liz start recovering it from their hedge fund pals?

Given the time Kwakers spends with them it shouldn't be too hard.

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[James310]

Public services are better funded in our small independent neighbours than they are in Scotland. Being better than England isn’t the limit of our ambition.

Personally I would say the Yes campaign is looking better prepared for indyref 2 than better together 2.


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Ah, the Denmark/Norway/Ireland card again. Fair enough but again I don't see any plan that says here is Scotland in 2022, to be like Norway we will do X,Y and Z (likely significantly raising taxes as these countries have way higher taxes than us) and if we do these things we will be like Denmark/Norway/Ireland or whoever is the favourite on that particular day. Also it completely ignored the question after Indy how is the gap of losing billions of pounds that fund public services being filled. Tax increases in an independent Scotland to fund the gap? Spending cuts? The Growth Commission report was advocating spending cuts as it was saying Government spending should be 1% below GDP growth, if Yes had won in 2014 and we followed that plan we would have had austerity on stilts in Scotland, way worse than the Tory's austerity plans.

There is no Better Together 2 as there is no referendum. And I am more convinced than ever before there won't be one.

[Mon Dieu4]

Ah, the Denmark/Norway/Ireland card again. Fair enough but again I don't see any plan that says here is Scotland in 2022, to be like Norway we will do X,Y and Z (likely significantly raising taxes as these countries have way higher taxes than us) and if we do these things we will be like Denmark/Norway/Ireland or whoever is the favourite on that particular day. Also it completely ignored the question after Indy how is the gap of losing billions of pounds that fund public services being filled. Tax increases in an independent Scotland to fund the gap? Spending cuts? The Growth Commission report was advocating spending cuts as it was saying Government spending should be 1% below GDP growth, if Yes had won in 2014 and we followed that plan we would have had austerity on stilts in Scotland, way worse than the Tory's austerity plans.

There is no Better Together 2 as there is no referendum. And I am more convinced than ever before there won't be one.

As opposed to how the UK government has lived within its means the last 12 years you mean?

[James310]

As opposed to how the UK government has lived within its means the last 12 years you mean?

I am talking about the future plans for Scotland, if every reply is ah but the Tory's or ah but look at Denmark/Norway/Ireland then fair enough but it doesn't answer the questions about Scotland.

[Mon Dieu4]

I am talking about the future plans for Scotland, if every reply is ah but the Tory's or ah but look at Denmark/Norway/Ireland then fair enough but it doesn't answer the questions about Scotland.

I'd imagine if there was a shortfall we would borrow the money until there wasn't a shortfall, like every other country in the world does

[grunt]

Having the best public services is kind of expected when you have by far the best funded public services in the UK.This is not the criticism you might think it is.


... Education stats I think show England performing better than Scotland. Do you have evidence to support this assertion?

[James310]

I'd imagine if there was a shortfall we would borrow the money until there wasn't a shortfall, like every other country in the world does

So again this raises the question of currency as what currency would you be borrowing in. It's all related and has an impact.

This is from the Institute for Government.

"Whatever currency arrangement it chose, Scotland’s ability to borrow would be restricted by what international investors were willing to lend. The implicit Scottish deficit was over 8% of GDP before coronavirus. No advanced economy – especially no small, advanced economy – has consistently borrowed anything like that much in normal times. A sustainable medium-term deficit would be closer to 3%. But this gap cannot be closed by spending less on defence or – at least initially – through higher growth, so some tax increases or spending cuts would be necessary.

Even a deficit of around 3% per year would see Scotland pay higher interest on its debt than the UK does. In the current low interest rate environment, the IfG estimates that Scotland’s premium over UK rates would be 0.4 to 0.9 percentage points. Initially, this borrowing premium would reflect a lack of a track record of repaying debts. In the medium term, it would mainly be because all smaller countries tend to pay more to borrow than large ones, and because Scotland’s tax base would be more volatile than the UK’s due to its greater reliance on oil and financial services. Scotland would therefore need to spend more on debt interest, requiring lower spending elsewhere or higher taxes"

As ever it's not as simple as just saying we will borrow. Also that's what the UK Gov are doing and are getting heavily criticised for and the markets punished them for not having a credible plan.

The last few weeks has shown us you need a credible plan for borrowing, currency, Central Banks etc or the markets will punish you. All the things not being debated at the moment it seems.

[James310]

This is not the criticism you might think it is.

Do you have evidence to support this assertion?

Only the PISA rankings as that's the only index used to compare.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50642855.amp

[Ozyhibby]

So again this raises the question of currency as what currency would you be borrowing in. It's all related and has an impact.

This is from the Institute for Government.

"Whatever currency arrangement it chose, Scotland’s ability to borrow would be restricted by what international investors were willing to lend. The implicit Scottish deficit was over 8% of GDP before coronavirus. No advanced economy – especially no small, advanced economy – has consistently borrowed anything like that much in normal times. A sustainable medium-term deficit would be closer to 3%. But this gap cannot be closed by spending less on defence or – at least initially – through higher growth, so some tax increases or spending cuts would be necessary.

Even a deficit of around 3% per year would see Scotland pay higher interest on its debt than the UK does. In the current low interest rate environment, the IfG estimates that Scotland’s premium over UK rates would be 0.4 to 0.9 percentage points. Initially, this borrowing premium would reflect a lack of a track record of repaying debts. In the medium term, it would mainly be because all smaller countries tend to pay more to borrow than large ones, and because Scotland’s tax base would be more volatile than the UK’s due to its greater reliance on oil and financial services. Scotland would therefore need to spend more on debt interest, requiring lower spending elsewhere or higher taxes"

As ever it's not as simple as just saying we will borrow. Also that's what the UK Gov are doing and are getting heavily criticised for and the markets punished them for not having a credible plan.

The last few weeks has shown us you need a credible plan for borrowing, currency, Central Banks etc or the markets will punish you. All the things not being debated at the moment it seems.

Stick with the UK for financial stability.[emoji23]


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[Moulin Yarns]

Delighted, shows they are not really serious about it. Surely it should be Indy supporters raging, but oddly they all seem quite happy and again won't dare critise.

You still think that independence isn't on the agenda, even after I pointed out that you were wrong?!

[James310]

Stick with the UK for financial stability.[emoji23]


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Again, ah but look at the UK/Tory's. Zero answers on a future Scotland.

Sure the last few weeks have been a shambles, but there is global issues at play. The Euro is massively down against the Dollar, average inflation in the EU is higher than the UK and in countries like Denmark it's expected to hit 10% so on a par with the UK. In the Netherlands it's 17%.

[Moulin Yarns]

And if the court case fails it's into de facto referendum time, an election could be called at anytime.

But as I say if Indy supporters are comfortable and judging by the reaction on here they are then👍

I just thought some Indy supporters might be a bit miffed about a SNP Conference not talking and debating what were the main reasons they lost IndyRef1 and what will be the main talking points in any future referendum.

Blah blah blah
Motion on the way forward to campaign for independence to be discussed on the Sunday. You need to get your facts right before doubling down.

[Steven79]

So again this raises the question of currency as what currency would you be borrowing in. It's all related and has an impact.

This is from the Institute for Government.

"Whatever currency arrangement it chose, Scotland’s ability to borrow would be restricted by what international investors were willing to lend. The implicit Scottish deficit was over 8% of GDP before coronavirus. No advanced economy – especially no small, advanced economy – has consistently borrowed anything like that much in normal times. A sustainable medium-term deficit would be closer to 3%. But this gap cannot be closed by spending less on defence or – at least initially – through higher growth, so some tax increases or spending cuts would be necessary.

Even a deficit of around 3% per year would see Scotland pay higher interest on its debt than the UK does. In the current low interest rate environment, the IfG estimates that Scotland’s premium over UK rates would be 0.4 to 0.9 percentage points. Initially, this borrowing premium would reflect a lack of a track record of repaying debts. In the medium term, it would mainly be because all smaller countries tend to pay more to borrow than large ones, and because Scotland’s tax base would be more volatile than the UK’s due to its greater reliance on oil and financial services. Scotland would therefore need to spend more on debt interest, requiring lower spending elsewhere or higher taxes"

As ever it's not as simple as just saying we will borrow. Also that's what the UK Gov are doing and are getting heavily criticised for and the markets punished them for not having a credible plan.

The last few weeks has shown us you need a credible plan for borrowing, currency, Central Banks etc or the markets will punish you. All the things not being debated at the moment it seems.

The SNP plan to use the pound is utter folly as if the £ is retained as our currency then economic growth will be limited and places our economy at high risk.

I also agree that the lack of talk of talk about Independence dosen't sit easy with me and it sounds like numbers attending aren't great.

[James310]

The SNP plan to use the pound is utter folly as if the £ is retained as our currency then economic growth will be limited and places our economy at high risk.

I also agree that the lack of talk of talk about Independence dosen't sit easy with me and it sounds like numbers attending aren't great.

Watch out, with talk like that you will be labelled an Alba supporter, or worse a Yoon.