Scottish Independence

[HNA12]

Wow, ten posts from 'you know who' on one page!


He's getting more and more obsessed with independence

:greengrin

This sneering at other posters via a third party isn’t on. At least have the decency to debate the points directly. It looks like low level bullying.

[James310]

You are missing the WHOLE point. If we don't get a s30, then we're effectively prisoners in the union. Any union you're not allowed to leave is no longer a union, it's a prison. Did the UK need to obtain (the equivalent of) a s30 in order to leave the EU?

No, they didn't, and nor should we.

And you say that an advisory referendum is meaningless. But the EU referendum was an advisory one?

As explained the EU referendum was run with the support of all parties and the political will, like the first Scottish Independence referendum.

The simple answer is when the SNP can convince a majority of people Indy is the answer then it will happen, and I am not going to explain that all over again.

If Indy is so wonderful why is Yes behind in like 30 of the last 35 polls.

I will leave you all to it for now, the fact Skol knows what I means is enough for me for now. I will take that. 🤣

[Kato]

Nobody claimed the Brexit referendum would have no effect on Brexit.

See how silly it sounds, but that's what the SNP are saying, a referendum on Scottish Independence would have no impact on Scottish Independence. It's daft.It was formulated as an advisory referendum. At some point in the process a decision was made that it would be binding.

There was a process. Every referendum has gone through a process. Given we are at the embryonic stages of the process for this one second guessing what shape the process is going take seems a bit too early for nitpickery.

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[weecounty hibby]

As explained the EU referendum was run with the support of all parties and the political will, like the first Scottish Independence referendum.

The simple answer is when the SNP can convince a majority of people Indy is the answer then it will happen, and I am not going to explain that all over again.

If Indy is so wonderful why is Yes behind in like 30 of the last 35 polls.

I will leave you all to it for now, the fact Skol knows what I means is enough for me for now. I will fake that. 🤣
Where was the proof pre brexit referendum that there was a majority in support if brexit? That makes no sense at all. Only hold a referendum when you already know the answer?

[James310]

This sneering at other posters via a third party isn’t on. At least have the decency to debate the points directly. It looks like low level bullying.

It's all a bit pathetic. Like being at school.

[Hibrandenburg]

As explained the EU referendum was run with the support of all parties and the political will, like the first Scottish Independence referendum.

The simple answer is when the SNP can convince a majority of people Indy is the answer then it will happen, and I am not going to explain that all over again.

If Indy is so wonderful why is Yes behind in like 30 of the last 35 polls.

I will leave you all to it for now, the fact Skol knows what I means is enough for me for now. I will fake that. 🤣

Freudian slip?

[James310]

Freudian slip?

Lol, just auto correct. Fixed it now.

[Kato]

None, we have already been told this week that scotlands democratically elected FM will be ignored and that under no circumstances will England allow a referendum. Key word being allow, let that sink in. No matter what, we need England to allow us to decide for ourselves. I can't get my head round anyone thinking that is normalIt is normal. Look back through history and you'll see crumbled empires desperately clinging onto any remaining part of "its" real estate.

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[grunt]

Before you get too excited if you cut through all the waffle then it also says the SNP expect IndyRef2 would not "have any affect on the Union". And that the holding of a vote would have no more “than a loose or consequential connection with any reserved matter" and that a win for Yes “is not an act of secession.”

So what's the point?


As usual, you are taking this section out of context. This part of the intervention is about whether the Scottish Government has power to hold a referendum. One of the arguments against that is if the SG was taking powers which are reserved to UKGov. The section you have quoted states this is not the case; SG is not trying to usurp UKG.

The point is that if we hold a referendum, which we think we're entitled to do, and the result is in favour of independence, how then does UKG respond?

So the point you make above is not about whether there is any point in holding a referendum - clearly there is a big political point in doing so. The bit you quote is justification for holding it in the first place.

IMO.

[grunt]

If Indy is so wonderful why is Yes behind in like 30 of the last 35 polls.

If support for indy is so poor why are UKG so scared of "allowing" us to hold one?

[Moulin Yarns]

I will hold my hands up, they don't use the exact word meaningless in their submission, so my apologies.

But they do infer that as and this is a direct quote from their submission

"Put short, the holding of a consultative referendum does not result in a reduction in
the scope of the powers of the UK Parliament and nor does it, of itself, have any effect
on the Union"

If has no "effect on the Union" then what's the point of it? What me and Skol are saying is they say that now, but assuming there was an advisory referendum and Yes wins by a small margin then do we really believe the SNP go well there you go, it has no effect on the Union. Of course not, nobody believes that.

We have been over this so many times already.

The referendum has no effect on the union, the negotiations after the yes vote is what changes the union.

[Moulin Yarns]

It would be so much easier if people understood what the SNP are arguing for and stopped asking questions! It seems to be a right challenge for some.

At last!!! You agree with me at last. It's about time you understood what is in the submission to the supreme courts.

Any ideas what the union has submitted yet?

[James310]

At last!!! You agree with me at last. It's about time you understood what is in the submission to the supreme courts.

Any ideas what the union has submitted yet?

I asked you politely a few weeks ago to just basically leave me alone, along with another poster I believe as well who requested the same. Do us both a favor and take that advice, I can't obviously stop you posting replies to me but as long as you persist with your schoolboy jokes and remarks I just won't reply.

Is that enough negative vampire energy for you? Bye.

Edit: some emojis and YouTube links or something like that.

[Skol]

We have been over this so many times already.

The referendum has no effect on the union, the negotiations after the yes vote is what changes the union.

But those negotiations are based on a referendum that has no impact on the union.

[J-C]

Got to give it to James310, he's the only poster I can see against Independence, with multiple posters firing back at him, yet he still tries hard to change our minds.

Independence is the only way Scotland can become the country we all want it to become, lets keep all the money raised here instead of giving a third to Westminster, lets get back into the EU and reap the benefits from it, lets get away from the corruption of Westminster and the antiquated House of Lords. We've been ignored as a people and country for far too long, treated like 2nd class citizens by the Tories and the right wing Labour for far too long, it needs to happen.

[Berwickhibby]

Got to give it to James310, he's the only poster I can see against Independence, with multiple posters firing back at him, yet he still tries hard to change our minds.

Independence is the only way Scotland can become the country we all want it to become, lets keep all the money raised here instead of giving a third to Westminster, lets get back into the EU and reap the benefits from it, lets get away from the corruption of Westminster and the antiquated House of Lords. We've been ignored as a people and country for far too long, treated like 2nd class citizens by the Tories and the right wing Labour for far too long, it needs to happen.

Right wing Labour 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 really

[James310]

Got to give it to James310, he's the only poster I can see against Independence, with multiple posters firing back at him, yet he still tries hard to change our minds.

Independence is the only way Scotland can become the country we all want it to become, lets keep all the money raised here instead of giving a third to Westminster, lets get back into the EU and reap the benefits from it, lets get away from the corruption of Westminster and the antiquated House of Lords. We've been ignored as a people and country for far too long, treated like 2nd class citizens by the Tories and the right wing Labour for far too long, it needs to happen.

I am not looking to change anyone's minds and don't believe for a minute I will. As previously stated I have not seen one credible piece of analysis that's says Independence makes us all better off, we would have less money for our public services and be giving up the highest spending on these public services in the UK and for what? Flags? The whole Brexit thing has shown us what putting up barriers with your neighbors and trading partners does yet like Brexit most Scottish nationalists seem to be happy to ignore it and think like the Brexiteers it will all work out. As for the EU I just find it odd we seem to have so much in common with 27 other European countries yet are desperate to break away from the one country next to us who we have family and friends in.

As for money going to Westminster well we get more back than we put in, sure taxes are collected but if you get more back why is that a bad thing? Why would you give up billions of pounds a year that is used to fund things like the NHS in Scotland? If we join the EU why are you happy to send money to Brussels? I assume we would be a net contributer to the EU.

https://theferret.scot/claim-scotland-pays-out-more-than-gets-back-false/

https://fullfact.org/economy/scotland-finances-whisky-tax/

The case for Indy seems to be built on fake Facebook memes and gifs for some and I would just like some realism, that's all. I am not saying everyone is saying it will all be wonderful though.

Let's see what October brings and take it from there.

[OldEast]

Right wing Labour 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 really

The right wing OF the Labour party surely?

[Berwickhibby]

The right wing OF the Labour party surely?

And that is ….where …who …:confused:

[Mon Dieu4]

I am not looking to change anyone's minds and don't believe for a minute I will. As previously stated I have not seen one credible piece of analysis that's says Independence makes us all better off, we would have less money for our public services and be giving up the highest spending on these public services in the UK and for what? Flags? The whole Brexit thing has shown us what putting up barriers with your neighbors and trading partners does yet like Brexit most Scottish nationalists seem to be happy to ignore it and think like the Brexiteers it will all work out. As for the EU I just find it odd we seem to have so much in common with 27 other European countries yet are desperate to break away from the one country next to us who we have family and friends in.

As for money going to Westminster well we get more back than we put in, sure taxes are collected but if you get more back why is that a bad thing? Why would you give up billions of pounds a year that is used to fund things like the NHS in Scotland? If we join the EU why are you happy to send money to Brussels? I assume we would be a net contributer to the EU.

https://theferret.scot/claim-scotland-pays-out-more-than-gets-back-false/

https://fullfact.org/economy/scotland-finances-whisky-tax/

The case for Indy seems to be built on fake Facebook memes and gifs for some and I would just like some realism, that's all. I am not saying everyone is saying it will all be wonderful though.

Let's see what October brings and take it from there.

The difference is you consistently equate "better off" in monetary terms, you can also be better off when you get to make your own decisions about self determination, you can be better off without a right wing Tory government you didn't vote for, you can be better off in the EU with freedom of movement, you can be better off knowing that Scotland can't be made to do something against its will because other parts of the UK want it that way, it's not all down to money

[OldEast]

And that is ….where …who …:confused:

I was just having a go at interpreting what he meant. 😃

[Ozyhibby]

I am not looking to change anyone's minds and don't believe for a minute I will. As previously stated I have not seen one credible piece of analysis that's says Independence makes us all better off, we would have less money for our public services and be giving up the highest spending on these public services in the UK and for what? Flags? The whole Brexit thing has shown us what putting up barriers with your neighbors and trading partners does yet like Brexit most Scottish nationalists seem to be happy to ignore it and think like the Brexiteers it will all work out. As for the EU I just find it odd we seem to have so much in common with 27 other European countries yet are desperate to break away from the one country next to us who we have family and friends in.

As for money going to Westminster well we get more back than we put in, sure taxes are collected but if you get more back why is that a bad thing? Why would you give up billions of pounds a year that is used to fund things like the NHS in Scotland? If we join the EU why are you happy to send money to Brussels? I assume we would be a net contributer to the EU.

https://theferret.scot/claim-scotland-pays-out-more-than-gets-back-false/

https://fullfact.org/economy/scotland-finances-whisky-tax/

The case for Indy seems to be built on fake Facebook memes and gifs for some and I would just like some realism, that's all. I am not saying everyone is saying it will all be wonderful though.

Let's see what October brings and take it from there.

All the small Indy countries close to us are richer than us. That’s no coincidence. It’s because they take decisions that are in their best interests. All govts do. The problem we have is that our govt takes decisions that are in the best interests of the SE of England.
Scotland becoming independent in the EU and opening direct trade routes with the continent will prosper. Edinburgh will prosper as countries open up embassies and companies open up offices here.
We can start to openly lobby multi-nationals to set up here, giving them access to the EU and an educated English speaking workforce.
We can change employment law to give workers some of the rights enjoyed by workers within the EU and start to address the inequality that is holding Scotland back.
We can turn Rosyth, Grangemouth and Leith back into thriving ports dealing with EU trade. Yes it’s longer sailing times but when you allow for the 8 hours drive time to Dover, ten hour Q when you get there and all the paperwork then it’s going to be competitive.
We can start to reduce the prices in the shops that have went up since brexit which make us all poorer.
We can bring in young educated EU workers again to help power our economy and help fund the retirements of our ageing population.
Independence made sense when the UK was in the EU, now it’s a no-brainer.
Will it be easy? No, of course not. Nothing worthwhile ever is. Which is why unionist are managing to convince people it’s not possible. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the wealth of Ireland. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the inequality levels of Denmark. Scotland couldn’t possibly organise our own affairs. I think it’s time to stop listening to the people who say we can’t do things and start thinking about what we can do ourselves. Waiting on London to start thinking about Scotland’s needs has made us poorer than every other nation close to us (except the other ones run from London).

Scotland could and should be doing better than it is. We vote every time to try make that happen but find out every time that we don’t get what we vote for.
We get what The south of England voted for. And lo and behold, it’s them who are getting wealthier. Funny that.

If you want analysis rather than examples then your mind is closed to the possibilities and there is not much to help you.


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[Berwickhibby]

I was just having a go at interpreting what he meant. 😃

Greatly appreciated :greengrin it’s akin to the better together wing of the SNP

[James310]

All the small Indy countries close to us are richer than us. That’s no coincidence. It’s because they take decisions that are in their best interests. All govts do. The problem we have is that our govt takes decisions that are in the best interests of the SE of England.
Scotland becoming independent in the EU and opening direct trade routes with the continent will prosper. Edinburgh will prosper as countries open up embassies and companies open up offices here.
We can start to openly lobby multi-nationals to set up here, giving them access to the EU and an educated English speaking workforce.
We can change employment law to give workers some of the rights enjoyed by workers within the EU and start to address the inequality that is holding Scotland back.
We can turn Rosyth, Grangemouth and Leith back into thriving ports dealing with EU trade. Yes it’s longer sailing times but when you allow for the 8 hours drive time to Dover, ten hour Q when you get there and all the paperwork then it’s going to be competitive.
We can start to reduce the prices in the shops that have went up since brexit which make us all poorer.
We can bring in young educated EU workers again to help power our economy and help fund the retirements of our ageing population.
Independence made sense when the UK was in the EU, now it’s a no-brainer.
Will it be easy? No, of course not. Nothing worthwhile ever is. Which is why unionist are managing to convince people it’s not possible. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the wealth of Ireland. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the inequality levels of Denmark. Scotland couldn’t possibly organise our own affairs. I think it’s time to stop listening to the people who say we can’t do things and start thinking about what we can do ourselves. Waiting on London to start thinking about Scotland’s needs has made us poorer than every other nation close to us (except the other ones run from London).

Scotland could and should be doing better than it is. We vote every time to try make that happen but find out every time that we don’t get what we vote for.
We get what The south of England voted for. And lo and behold, it’s them who are getting wealthier. Funny that.

If you want analysis rather than examples then your mind is closed to the possibilities and there is not much to help you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The stats can generally paint what ever picture you want, or whatever picture the SNP want you to see. You champion Ireland on here but Ireland has a lower actual individual consumption per capita than the UK. That means they have a lower standard of living than people in the UK, why would you want us to be like that?

Their GDP per Capita is boosted by the fact Facebook, Apple and Google etc use Ireland as a tax haven, but the actual people of Ireland see little benefit of that and have a lower standard of living than people in the UK. They don't have a NHS to fund as well.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/articles/actualindividualconsumptionperheadintheuk/2020


That's something you won't ever see in a SNP booklet about Ireland is it.

[Kato]

All the small Indy countries close to us are richer than us. That’s no coincidence. It’s because they take decisions that are in their best interests. All govts do. The problem we have is that our govt takes decisions that are in the best interests of the SE of England.
Scotland becoming independent in the EU and opening direct trade routes with the continent will prosper. Edinburgh will prosper as countries open up embassies and companies open up offices here.
We can start to openly lobby multi-nationals to set up here, giving them access to the EU and an educated English speaking workforce.
We can change employment law to give workers some of the rights enjoyed by workers within the EU and start to address the inequality that is holding Scotland back.
We can turn Rosyth, Grangemouth and Leith back into thriving ports dealing with EU trade. Yes it’s longer sailing times but when you allow for the 8 hours drive time to Dover, ten hour Q when you get there and all the paperwork then it’s going to be competitive.
We can start to reduce the prices in the shops that have went up since brexit which make us all poorer.
We can bring in young educated EU workers again to help power our economy and help fund the retirements of our ageing population.
Independence made sense when the UK was in the EU, now it’s a no-brainer.
Will it be easy? No, of course not. Nothing worthwhile ever is. Which is why unionist are managing to convince people it’s not possible. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the wealth of Ireland. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the inequality levels of Denmark. Scotland couldn’t possibly organise our own affairs. I think it’s time to stop listening to the people who say we can’t do things and start thinking about what we can do ourselves. Waiting on London to start thinking about Scotland’s needs has made us poorer than every other nation close to us (except the other ones run from London).

Scotland could and should be doing better than it is. We vote every time to try make that happen but find out every time that we don’t get what we vote for.
We get what The south of England voted for. And lo and behold, it’s them who are getting wealthier. Funny that.

If you want analysis rather than examples then your mind is closed to the possibilities and there is not much to help you.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHe's not listening. He thinks it's about flags.

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[Berwickhibby]

The stats can generally paint what ever picture you want, or whatever picture the SNP want you to see. You champion Ireland on here but Ireland has a lower actual individual consumption per capita than the UK. That means they have a lower standard of living than people in the UK, why would you want us to be like that?

Their GDP per Capita is boosted by the fact Facebook, Apple and Google etc use Ireland as a tax haven, but the actual people of Ireland see little benefit of that and have a lower standard of living than people in the UK. They don't have a NHS to fund as well.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/articles/actualindividualconsumptionperheadintheuk/2020


That's something you won't ever see in a SNP booklet about Ireland is it.

James you have been warned before about providing facts and truth that fly against the general consensus of the Holy Ground ….pack it in 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Ozyhibby]

The stats can generally paint what ever picture you want, or whatever picture the SNP want you to see. You champion Ireland on here but Ireland has a lower actual individual consumption per capita than the UK. That means they have a lower standard of living than people in the UK, why would you want us to be like that?

Their GDP per Capita is boosted by the fact Facebook, Apple and Google etc use Ireland as a tax haven, but the actual people of Ireland see little benefit of that and have a lower standard of living than people in the UK. They don't have a NHS to fund as well.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/articles/actualindividualconsumptionperheadintheuk/2020


That's something you won't ever see in a SNP booklet about Ireland is it.

And yet Ireland consistently tops quality of life surveys done by multiple organisations.
Are you suggesting Ireland doesn’t have healthcare?


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[Ozyhibby]

The stats can generally paint what ever picture you want, or whatever picture the SNP want you to see. You champion Ireland on here but Ireland has a lower actual individual consumption per capita than the UK. That means they have a lower standard of living than people in the UK, why would you want us to be like that?

Their GDP per Capita is boosted by the fact Facebook, Apple and Google etc use Ireland as a tax haven, but the actual people of Ireland see little benefit of that and have a lower standard of living than people in the UK. They don't have a NHS to fund as well.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/articles/actualindividualconsumptionperheadintheuk/2020


That's something you won't ever see in a SNP booklet about Ireland is it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220804/13a3d766b1651eeb9e71992e1999ecfd.jpg

No healthcare in Ireland.[emoji849]


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[James310]

And yet Ireland consistently tops quality of life surveys done by multiple organisations.
Are you suggesting Ireland doesn’t have healthcare?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, where did I suggest that? It doesn't have a NHS to fund is what I said.

If you want Scotland to be a tax haven for Amazon and Google etc with low rates of corporation tax then it goes against pretty much what most other Indy supporters want. I get it's a broad church but slashing taxes for big business is a Tory policy.

Let's see what October brings, see you then.

[CropleyWasGod]

No, where did I suggest that? It doesn't have a NHS to fund is what I said.

If you want Scotland to be a tax haven for Amazon and Google etc with low rates of corporation tax then it goes against pretty much what most other Indy supporters want. I get it's a broad church but slashing taxes for big business is a Tory policy.

Let's see what October brings, see you then.

Wasn't aware that was the case, but happy to be corrected.

Low rates of CT, particularly relative to our neighbours, is a sensible policy IMO. Attracting investment that might otherwise go elsewhere, brings with it increased employment, tax, NI, VAT,spending and all the other things that can grow an economy.

[grunt]

No, where did I suggest that? It doesn't have a NHS to fund is what I said.

So what did you mean by "doesn't have an NHS to fund" if you weren't talking about healthcare provision?

[grunt]

All the small Indy countries close to us are richer than us. That’s no coincidence. It’s because they take decisions that are in their best interests. All govts do. The problem we have is that our govt takes decisions that are in the best interests of the SE of England.
Scotland becoming independent in the EU and opening direct trade routes with the continent will prosper. Edinburgh will prosper as countries open up embassies and companies open up offices here.
We can start to openly lobby multi-nationals to set up here, giving them access to the EU and an educated English speaking workforce.
We can change employment law to give workers some of the rights enjoyed by workers within the EU and start to address the inequality that is holding Scotland back.
We can turn Rosyth, Grangemouth and Leith back into thriving ports dealing with EU trade. Yes it’s longer sailing times but when you allow for the 8 hours drive time to Dover, ten hour Q when you get there and all the paperwork then it’s going to be competitive.
We can start to reduce the prices in the shops that have went up since brexit which make us all poorer.
We can bring in young educated EU workers again to help power our economy and help fund the retirements of our ageing population.
Independence made sense when the UK was in the EU, now it’s a no-brainer.
Will it be easy? No, of course not. Nothing worthwhile ever is. Which is why unionist are managing to convince people it’s not possible. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the wealth of Ireland. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the inequality levels of Denmark. Scotland couldn’t possibly organise our own affairs. I think it’s time to stop listening to the people who say we can’t do things and start thinking about what we can do ourselves. Waiting on London to start thinking about Scotland’s needs has made us poorer than every other nation close to us (except the other ones run from London).

Scotland could and should be doing better than it is. We vote every time to try make that happen but find out every time that we don’t get what we vote for.
We get what The south of England voted for. And lo and behold, it’s them who are getting wealthier. Funny that.

If you want analysis rather than examples then your mind is closed to the possibilities and there is not much to help you.

You said this a lot better than I could.

[grunt]

As for money going to Westminster well we get more back than we put in, sure taxes are collected but if you get more back why is that a bad thing? Why would you give up billions of pounds a year that is used to fund things like the NHS in Scotland? If we join the EU why are you happy to send money to Brussels? I assume we would be a net contributer to the EU.


You're making the same mistake I did back in 2014. It's not all about the money. It's about what sort of country we want to be. Do we want to live in a low tax country, where the poor and the needy are left to get by on low quality or non existent public services? Do we want to live in a country that shuts its doors to foreigners and demonises them? Do we want to live in a right wing fascist country where the rich get richer and the poor die sooner? Do we want to live in a country where humans rights are worthless?

And as for the "send money to Brussels" comment!! And you accuse us of being taken in by Facebook memes??

I don't.


Let's see what October brings and take it from there.Are you suggesting we close this thread until October 2023?

[ronaldo7]

The stats can generally paint what ever picture you want, or whatever picture the SNP want you to see. You champion Ireland on here but Ireland has a lower actual individual consumption per capita than the UK. That means they have a lower standard of living than people in the UK, why would you want us to be like that?

Their GDP per Capita is boosted by the fact Facebook, Apple and Google etc use Ireland as a tax haven, but the actual people of Ireland see little benefit of that and have a lower standard of living than people in the UK. They don't have a NHS to fund as well.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/articles/actualindividualconsumptionperheadintheuk/2020


That's something you won't ever see in a SNP booklet about Ireland is it.

Ozy mentioned one country out of many around us, and you try and decry that country. Most are better off than Scotland in the union, not only one.

When was the last time you were there? Ireland is buzzing with enthusiasm, and life. You should try it some time.

[James310]

You're making the same mistake I did back in 2014. It's not all about the money. It's about what sort of country we want to be. Do we want to live in a low tax country, where the poor and the needy are left to get by on low quality or non existent public services? Do we want to live in a country that shuts its doors to foreigners and demonises them? Do we want to live in a right wing fascist country where the rich get richer and the poor die sooner? Do we want to live in a country where humans rights are worthless?

And as for the "send money to Brussels" comment!! And you accuse us of being taken in by Facebook memes??

I don't.

Are you suggesting we close this thread until October 2023?

According to the posts above yes some do want to live in a low tax country.like Ireland but then want to be like high taxed Denmark at the same time.

All countries in the EU are net contributers or net recipients of EU money. That's how it works.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/1025/1255818-eu-auditors-report/


How did you think it worked?

No, just I am not going to post much more (you will be delighted to hear) until October and we get the results from the Supreme Court.

[lapsedhibee]

All countries in the EU are net contributers or net recipients of EU money. That's how it works.


All net contributors to the EU are also net beneficiaries of being in the EU. That's also how it works.

[grunt]

How did you think it worked?
I can't believe you're posting this, I had you down as an intelligent poster. It has been shown over the last six years that the benefits we accrued from being a member of the EU outweighed the financial cost many times over. For one thing, just look at the huge drop in GDP that we've suffered in the last two years, from making it difficult to trade with our nearest market. Just look at the number of businesses that have either gone bust or relocated to the EU. Brexit is killing us.

And to preempt you saying that independence will close us from our nearest market in the UK; that remains to be seen. There are ways of managing borders between different markets, and the UK has chosen the hardest break. It will be open for negotiation as to how we trade with rUK. England will still buy our whisky, they just might have to pay a bit more for it.

[James310]

For one thing, just look at the huge drop in GDP that we've suffered in the last two years, from making it difficult to trade with our nearest market.

Lol. That's exactly what Independence does.

[He's here!]

All the small Indy countries close to us are richer than us. That’s no coincidence. It’s because they take decisions that are in their best interests. All govts do. The problem we have is that our govt takes decisions that are in the best interests of the SE of England.
Scotland becoming independent in the EU and opening direct trade routes with the continent will prosper. Edinburgh will prosper as countries open up embassies and companies open up offices here.
We can start to openly lobby multi-nationals to set up here, giving them access to the EU and an educated English speaking workforce.
We can change employment law to give workers some of the rights enjoyed by workers within the EU and start to address the inequality that is holding Scotland back.
We can turn Rosyth, Grangemouth and Leith back into thriving ports dealing with EU trade. Yes it’s longer sailing times but when you allow for the 8 hours drive time to Dover, ten hour Q when you get there and all the paperwork then it’s going to be competitive.
We can start to reduce the prices in the shops that have went up since brexit which make us all poorer.
We can bring in young educated EU workers again to help power our economy and help fund the retirements of our ageing population.
Independence made sense when the UK was in the EU, now it’s a no-brainer.
Will it be easy? No, of course not. Nothing worthwhile ever is. Which is why unionist are managing to convince people it’s not possible. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the wealth of Ireland. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the inequality levels of Denmark. Scotland couldn’t possibly organise our own affairs. I think it’s time to stop listening to the people who say we can’t do things and start thinking about what we can do ourselves. Waiting on London to start thinking about Scotland’s needs has made us poorer than every other nation close to us (except the other ones run from London).

Scotland could and should be doing better than it is. We vote every time to try make that happen but find out every time that we don’t get what we vote for.
We get what The south of England voted for. And lo and behold, it’s them who are getting wealthier. Funny that.

If you want analysis rather than examples then your mind is closed to the possibilities and there is not much to help you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

'All the small indy countries close to us'. Who are they?

[grunt]

Lol. That's exactly what Independence does.


And to preempt you saying that independence will close us from our nearest market in the UK; that remains to be seen. There are ways of managing borders between different markets, and the UK has chosen the hardest break. It will be open for negotiation as to how we trade with rUK. England will still buy our whisky, they just might have to pay a bit more for it.

"To preempt your reply ... "

You're just not trying any more.

[grunt]

Think what Scotland could do with this money ...

https://www.agcc.co.uk/news-article/exclusive-north-sea-tax-receipts-now-22million-per-day


Research by Aberdeen & Grampian Chamber of Commerce has found that offshore operators and licensees have been paying an average of £22.1million in tax per day since the start of the year.

[J-C]

Right wing Labour 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 really


Do you seriously think the Labour party represents the working class it was started for?

They have been right of centre for many years now.

[James310]

Think what Scotland could do with this money ...

https://www.agcc.co.uk/news-article/exclusive-north-sea-tax-receipts-now-22million-per-day

Who cares about kids in Liverpool or Newcastle, just the kids in Scotland should benefit from this. Sorry that's just pure out nationalism. Basing who benefits from something based on their ethnicity. That's not progressive caring politics.

[grunt]

Who cares about kids in Liverpool or Newcastle, just the kids in Scotland should benefit from this. Sorry that's just pure out nationalism. Basing who benefits from something based on their ethnicity. That's not progressive caring politics.
You just said "why would we give money to Brussels" and then you criticise me for pointing out we give money to Westminster!! :confused:

[grunt]

Sorry that's just pure out nationalism. The clue is in the title, The Scottish National Party.


Basing who benefits from something based on their ethnicity. That's not progressive caring politics.And of course you are wrong here too. The SNP argument is that independence is for those who decide to call Scotland home. It is absolutely NOT based on ethnicity. You're mistaking us for the fascists in Westminster. Big mistake.

[The Modfather]

Who cares about kids in Liverpool or Newcastle, just the kids in Scotland should benefit from this. Sorry that's just pure out nationalism. Basing who benefits from something based on their ethnicity. That's not progressive caring politics.

That’s a poor and reductive post. Disappointing that you’re choosing to go down this petty route and talk about Facebook memes rather than engage with the likes of CWG. Who started a constructive and polite conversation about the pros and cons of tax rates in terms of the context of differing visions of how to manage them.

[Since90+2]

Who cares about kids in Liverpool or Newcastle, just the kids in Scotland should benefit from this. Sorry that's just pure out nationalism. Basing who benefits from something based on their ethnicity. That's not progressive caring politics.

I don't think you know what ethnicity means.

[Zambernardi1875]

You just said "why would we give money to Brussels" and then you criticise me for pointing out we give money to Westminster!! :confused:

:greengrin:top marks

[lapsedhibee]

Got to give it to James310, he's the only poster I can see against Independence, with multiple posters firing back at him, yet he still tries hard to change our minds.

Indefatigability alone probably not enough to change any minds on this topic.

[grunt]

Low rates of CT, particularly relative to our neighbours, is a sensible policy IMO. Attracting investment that might otherwise go elsewhere, brings with it increased employment, tax, NI, VAT,spending and all the other things that can grow an economy.
No you're wrong. They tried this in Ireland, and although it attracted a range of global companies to set up there ...


... the actual people of Ireland see little benefit of that and have a lower standard of living than people in the UK.

[Ozyhibby]

No you're wrong. They tried this in Ireland, and although it attracted a range of global companies to set up there ...

James is the only person in the world who thinks that Ireland is poorer than Scotland.[emoji23]


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[Kato]

Who cares about kids in Liverpool or Newcastle, just the kids in Scotland should benefit from this. Sorry that's just pure out nationalism. Basing who benefits from something based on their ethnicity. That's not progressive caring politics.Most voters in England don't care about kids in Liverpool or Newcastle.

Haven't you noticed?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Kato]

The clue is in the title, The Scottish National Party.

And of course you are wrong here too. The SNP argument is that independence is for those who decide to call Scotland home. It is absolutely NOT based on ethnicity. You're mistaking us for the fascists in Westminster. Big mistake.I don't think he's making a mistake. Wrong, yes but very carefully worded.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[Berwickhibby]

Do you seriously think the Labour party represents the working class it was started for?

They have been right of centre for many years now.

As a paid up member of the Labour Party I think you are posting nonsense…left of Centre most definitely..more Centre than I would like, definitely… but Right wing ��

[Stairway 2 7]

As a paid up member of the Labour Party I think you are posting nonsense…left of Centre most definitely..more Centre than I would like, definitely… but Right wing ��

Anti strikers, pro keeping brexit and mild on Rwanda ect, hardly left

[Berwickhibby]

Anti strikers, pro keeping brexit and mild on Rwanda ect, hardly left

Don’t always agree on policy or decisions but in essence a working class party with the majority of members still holding socialist values …. Hardly right wing …. The same can certainly not be said for other Parties

[Jones28]

Don’t always agree on policy or decisions but in essence a working class party with the majority of members still holding socialist values …. Hardly right wing …. The same can certainly not be said for other Parties

All meaningless when the party leadership are anti-strike.

[stoneyburn hibs]

All the small Indy countries close to us are richer than us. That’s no coincidence. It’s because they take decisions that are in their best interests. All govts do. The problem we have is that our govt takes decisions that are in the best interests of the SE of England.
Scotland becoming independent in the EU and opening direct trade routes with the continent will prosper. Edinburgh will prosper as countries open up embassies and companies open up offices here.
We can start to openly lobby multi-nationals to set up here, giving them access to the EU and an educated English speaking workforce.
We can change employment law to give workers some of the rights enjoyed by workers within the EU and start to address the inequality that is holding Scotland back.
We can turn Rosyth, Grangemouth and Leith back into thriving ports dealing with EU trade. Yes it’s longer sailing times but when you allow for the 8 hours drive time to Dover, ten hour Q when you get there and all the paperwork then it’s going to be competitive.
We can start to reduce the prices in the shops that have went up since brexit which make us all poorer.
We can bring in young educated EU workers again to help power our economy and help fund the retirements of our ageing population.
Independence made sense when the UK was in the EU, now it’s a no-brainer.
Will it be easy? No, of course not. Nothing worthwhile ever is. Which is why unionist are managing to convince people it’s not possible. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the wealth of Ireland. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the inequality levels of Denmark. Scotland couldn’t possibly organise our own affairs. I think it’s time to stop listening to the people who say we can’t do things and start thinking about what we can do ourselves. Waiting on London to start thinking about Scotland’s needs has made us poorer than every other nation close to us (except the other ones run from London).

Scotland could and should be doing better than it is. We vote every time to try make that happen but find out every time that we don’t get what we vote for.
We get what The south of England voted for. And lo and behold, it’s them who are getting wealthier. Funny that.

If you want analysis rather than examples then your mind is closed to the possibilities and there is not much to help you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well said.
What's not to like from that.

[archie]

James is the only person in the world who thinks that Ireland is poorer than Scotland.[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThe issue of how wealthy Ireland is not straightforward. It has a high GDP, but much of this is due to economic policies that attracted foreign companies through a very business friendly tax system. This is very distorting as much of the profit is offshored to the company's home country. In addition, much of the 'wealth' is tied up in high property values. But in practice this makes accessing housing extremely expensive, hence the growth in 40 year mortgages. In addition, access to social and health provision is patchy - with costs to accessesing health care for example. This is an interesting (and neutral) article on the issue https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-gdp-growth-multinationals-misleading/ It's a complex issue not really befitting laughing emojis.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's vile how little tax these behemoths pay, I hope Scotland wouldn't help that.

[Ozyhibby]

It's vile how little tax these behemoths pay, I hope Scotland wouldn't help that.

Ireland collect more corporation tax than Scotland does.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Ireland collect more corporation tax than Scotland does.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because they have companies like apple and big pharma companies. They take a smaller % per company and its horrid. Capitalism at its worst.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's vile how little tax these behemoths pay, I hope Scotland wouldn't help that.

According to RTE Amazon paid €15.7m corporation tax in Ireland last year. In the UK in 2020 it paid £18.3m according to the guardian.

I don't know what the trading profits were in Ireland compared to the UK, but it seems that they pay a similar amount of corporation tax in both countries.

Happy for a financial expert to be a bit more informative.

[archie]

I really don't want to get involved in the constitution rammys on here, but I can't let this pass.


All the small Indy countries close to us are richer than us. That’s no coincidence. It’s because they take decisions that are in their best interests. All govts do. The problem we have is that our govt takes decisions that are in the best interests of the SE of England.

What does richer mean in this context? These comparisons are often very misleading. What are decisions in the best interests of Scotland? All political decisons favour only some parts of society. So framing them as best decisons for Scotland is a highly controversial statement.

Scotland becoming independent in the EU and opening direct trade routes with the continent will prosper. Edinburgh will prosper as countries open up embassies and companies open up offices here. How? What is the mechanism by which this will happen. What trade will happen that doesn't happen now?

We can start to openly lobby multi-nationals to set up here, giving them access to the EU and an educated English speaking workforce. This is about a race to the bottom on tax. Google won't be lobbied - they'll come here if it's cheaper. Is that really what you want - a race to the bottom? In any event, tax harmonisation is very much on the EU agenda. The Irish Times called it a bigger threat than Brexit.


We can change employment law to give workers some of the rights enjoyed by workers within the EU and start to address the inequality that is holding Scotland back. So how do we address this 'inequality'. What are you actually proposing?

We can turn Rosyth, Grangemouth and Leith back into thriving ports dealing with EU trade. Yes it’s longer sailing times but when you allow for the 8 hours drive time to Dover, ten hour Q when you get there and all the paperwork then it’s going to be competitive. Maybe, but Rosyth services collapsed before. What trade will this be?

We can start to reduce the prices in the shops that have went up since brexit which make us all poorer. How? Inflation is a worldwide problem. It's not all due to Brexit. You don't effectively curtail the world economy for two years and expect supply chains to seamlessly return.

We can bring in young educated EU workers again to help power our economy and help fund the retirements of our ageing population. Again how - I have visited 4 EU countries this year - the Netherlands and Ireland in particular have chronic labour shortages? One business I spoke to in Ireland said that covid restrictions meant people just went home and moved on to other things.

Independence made sense when the UK was in the EU, now it’s a no-brainer. Fine, but that's just opinion.

Will it be easy? No, of course not. Nothing worthwhile ever is. Which is why unionist are managing to convince people it’s not possible. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the wealth of Ireland. Scotland couldn’t possibly have the inequality levels of Denmark. Scotland couldn’t possibly organise our own affairs. I think it’s time to stop listening to the people who say we can’t do things and start thinking about what we can do ourselves. Waiting on London to start thinking about Scotland’s needs has made us poorer than every other nation close to us (except the other ones run from London). I don't think raising questions is invalid here. Things might well get better. But they might not. The idea that there are no income disparities and inequalities across other countries is fanciful. this is a pretty balanced view on the complexities around this https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/income-inequality-in-ireland-the-devil-is-in-the-detail-1.4653255

Scotland could and should be doing better than it is. We vote every time to try make that happen but find out every time that we don’t get what we vote for.
We get what The south of England voted for. And lo and behold, it’s them who are getting wealthier. Funny that. Who is the 'they' in this context?

If you want analysis rather than examples then your mind is closed to the possibilities and there is not much to help you. What on earth does that mean - if you want analysis your mind is closed!


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[Ozyhibby]

Because they have companies like apple and big pharma companies. They take a smaller % per company and its horrid. Capitalism at its worst.

They take more money though. Surely it is more important to take the most amount of money that you can rather than focus on the percentage?
They also have all the very high paid jobs that come with it. The west coast of Ireland is now a pharmaceutical powerhouse globally. And they have built that whole industry up in 20 years. All those highly paid workers pay high rates of income tax as well.
What Ireland have done over the last 40 years has been nothing short of fantastic. I don’t see the downside to it at all.
If Scotland doesn’t move soon, we are going to have a lot of catching up to do. MIT would not surprise me at all now if there were more Scot’s moving to Ireland than the other way round, in search of greater opportunity.


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[allmodcons]

Who cares about kids in Liverpool or Newcastle, just the kids in Scotland should benefit from this. Sorry that's just pure out nationalism. Basing who benefits from something based on their ethnicity. That's not progressive caring politics.

This from a right wing British Nationalist.

[CropleyWasGod]

This might help.

https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/ireland/corporate/taxes-on-corporate-income

As ever, comparisons aren't always easy. Tax on trading profits is lower, non-trading profits higher, and CGT much higher.

[He's here!]

The issue of how wealthy Ireland is not straightforward. It has a high GDP, but much of this is due to economic policies that attracted foreign companies through a very business friendly tax system. This is very distorting as much of the profit is offshored to the company's home country. In addition, much of the 'wealth' is tied up in high property values. But in practice this makes accessing housing extremely expensive, hence the growth in 40 year mortgages. In addition, access to social and health provision is patchy - with costs to accessesing health care for example. This is an interesting (and neutral) article on the issue https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-gdp-growth-multinationals-misleading/ It's a complex issue not really befitting laughing emojis.

All good points. Little more than a decade since Ireland was saved from bankruptcy by a €70 billion loan. Even now there are large numbers of young people who have failed to benefit from its recovery (largely, as you say, thanks to dearth of housebuilding) and homelessness remains a major issue.

[Stairway 2 7]

They take more money though. Surely it is more important to take the most amount of money that you can rather than focus on the percentage?
They also have all the very high paid jobs that come with it. The west coast of Ireland is now a pharmaceutical powerhouse globally. And they have built that whole industry up in 20 years. All those highly paid workers pay high rates of income tax as well.
What Ireland have done over the last 40 years has been nothing short of fantastic. I don’t see the downside to it at all.
If Scotland doesn’t move soon, we are going to have a lot of catching up to do. MIT would not surprise me at all now if there were more Scot’s moving to Ireland than the other way round, in search of greater opportunity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We'd have to go lower than Ireland. Till eventually someone says big billionaires don't have to pay tax just please let us have your company. Anyway as has been said if the EU regulates tax as expected then its all mute. Ireland will have one of the biggest falls in gdp ever seen

[Ozyhibby]

All good points. Little more than a decade since Ireland was saved from bankruptcy by a €70 billion loan. Even now there are large numbers of young people who have failed to benefit from its recovery, while homelessness remains a major issue.

Britain was also saved from bankruptcy at the time by borrowing large sums of money.[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

We'd have to go lower than Ireland. Till eventually someone says big billionaires don't have to pay tax just please let us have your company. Anyway as has been said if the EU regulates tax as expected then its all mute. Ireland will have one of the biggest falls in gdp ever seen

It’s already happened and Ireland signed up to it. They moved their tax rate up to 15% and the big multi nationals said fine, we’ll stay anyway because we have a good set up here with high quality workforces and access to the EU single market.
Eu decisions are taken with Ireland being part of the process and it has a veto on that issue. That’s what is good about being in charge of your own affairs.


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[Stairway 2 7]

It’s already happened and Ireland signed up to it. They moved their tax rate up to 15% and the big multi nationals said fine, we’ll stay anyway because we have a good set up here with high quality workforces and access to the EU single market.
Eu decisions are taken with Ireland being part of the process and it has a veto on that issue. That’s what is good about being in charge of your own affairs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ireland and Hungary opossed the deal but were heavy armed. It's not started it might not in time for 2023, it will then be slowly brought in for the next decade after.

[Stairway 2 7]

According to RTE Amazon paid €15.7m corporation tax in Ireland last year. In the UK in 2020 it paid £18.3m according to the guardian.

I don't know what the trading profits were in Ireland compared to the UK, but it seems that they pay a similar amount of corporation tax in both countries.

Happy for a financial expert to be a bit more informative.

Amazon made €67 billion profit from the Irish company and paid €15 million in corporation tax. Bezos approves

[He's here!]

Got to give it to James310, he's the only poster I can see against Independence, with multiple posters firing back at him, yet he still tries hard to change our minds.

Independence is the only way Scotland can become the country we all want it to become, lets keep all the money raised here instead of giving a third to Westminster, lets get back into the EU and reap the benefits from it, lets get away from the corruption of Westminster and the antiquated House of Lords. We've been ignored as a people and country for far too long, treated like 2nd class citizens by the Tories and the right wing Labour for far too long, it needs to happen.

He's not the only one. He's just in the minority on here. I'm passionately anti-independence and upbeat about being British (largely for reasons which transcend politics) and as such I can't stand the divisive, grievance-driven miserablism of the SNP. I take my hat off to James for his exhaustive, polite and largely reasoned efforts. I just don't have the time or energy to do likewise, especially as the arguments tend to revert to a circular pattern.

[Moulin Yarns]

Amazon made €67 billion profit from the Irish company and paid €15 million in corporation tax. Bezos approves

What did Amazon make in the UK in relation to the £18+m corporation tax?

[CropleyWasGod]

Amazon made €67 billion profit from the Irish company and paid €15 million in corporation tax. Bezos approves

67 million profit 😉

[archie]

Britain was also saved from bankruptcy at the time by borrowing large sums of money.[emoji23]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't understand why you keep posting laughing emojis. This is extremely serious. A number of decisions and actions over the next few years, including constitutional issues, will have huge implications for generations to come. Actions have consequences. It's not a game.

[Stairway 2 7]

67 million profit 😉

No sadly billion unbelievably
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/apple-s-irish-subsidiary-doubles-pretax-profits-to-64bn-1.4871203

[He's here!]

Britain was also saved from bankruptcy at the time by borrowing large sums of money.[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not the same. Ireland, alongside Greece, Portugal (and possibly Spain?) were the eurozone member states which actually crashed.

[Stairway 2 7]

What did Amazon make in the UK in relation to the £18+m corporation tax?

£32 million profits
https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2022/07/apples-uk-retail-tax/

[CropleyWasGod]

No sadly billion unbelievably
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/apple-s-irish-subsidiary-doubles-pretax-profits-to-64bn-1.4871203

Amazon, not Apple. 67 million

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0415/1292567-profits-at-main-amazon-irish-operation-doubled-in-2021/#:~:text=New%20accounts%20show%20that%20Amazon,m%2 0to%20%E2%82%AC67.2m.

[Stairway 2 7]

Amazon, not Apple. 67 million

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0415/1292567-profits-at-main-amazon-irish-operation-doubled-in-2021/#:~:text=New%20accounts%20show%20that%20Amazon,m%2 0to%20%E2%82%AC67.2m.

Sorry got my conglomerates wrong. As a lawyer said I paid more tax than apple who made billions

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/business-53416206.amp

[Stairway 2 7]

These companies pay a pathetic amount in the uk too, they just make sure they make small profits

[archie]

They take more money though. Surely it is more important to take the most amount of money that you can rather than focus on the percentage?
They also have all the very high paid jobs that come with it. The west coast of Ireland is now a pharmaceutical powerhouse globally. And they have built that whole industry up in 20 years. All those highly paid workers pay high rates of income tax as well.
What Ireland have done over the last 40 years has been nothing short of fantastic. I don’t see the downside to it at all.
If Scotland doesn’t move soon, we are going to have a lot of catching up to do. MIT would not surprise me at all now if there were more Scot’s moving to Ireland than the other way round, in search of greater opportunity.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSeriously - no downside at all. OK how about rampant property price growth followed by a collapse leading to negative equity and ghost estates. A cycle that looks to be repeating itself.

[Kato]

I can't stand the divisive, grievance-driven miserablism.

You voted Tory, right?

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

Sorry got my conglomerates wrong. As a lawyer said I paid more tax than apple who made billions

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/business-53416206.amp

The final case has yet to be heard. That's in October.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/2022/07/18/irish-officials-expect-hearings-on-apple-tax-appeal-in-autumn/

On your wider point, IMO it's wrong to look at CT rates in isolation. A few years ago, I had to present a paper on so-called tax "sweetheart deals" at Edinburgh Uni's Business School. There are many parallels with the debate over CT rates. The over-riding conclusion was that there are so many other factors that have to be considered, such as:-

Job creation, hence IT and NI take, and increasing spending in the wider economy
VAT generation
The cost of "not doing it" eg higher Social Security costs
Political views
Morality
Contribution by the company to society in non-financial ways

... and others, most of which I have forgotten :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

As a paid up member of the Labour Party I think you are posting nonsense…left of Centre most definitely..more Centre than I would like, definitely… but Right wing ��

So left wing, they've gone right around and landed on the other side, picking up a few tory colleagues on the way, whilst passing them top jobs in councils all over Scotland.

[grunt]

... I can't stand the divisive, grievance-driven miserablism of the SNP.
You're absolutely right. We're far better off with the divisive, grievance-driven miserablism of the Tories, which we didn't even vote for.

[marinello59]

You're absolutely right. We're far better off with the divisive, grievance-driven miserablism of the Tories, which we didn't even vote for.

Along with half of the country I didn’t vote for the SNP either so I’ve got to put up with two doses of miserablism I can’t be blamed for. And I already had plenty of my own. :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

So left wing, they've gone right around and landed on the other side, picking up a few tory colleagues on the way, whilst passing them top jobs in councils all over Scotland.

Whatever ….believe what you like …it’s pish but you carry on

[Ozyhibby]

Seriously - no downside at all. OK how about rampant property price growth followed by a collapse leading to negative equity and ghost estates. A cycle that looks to be repeating itself.

Lucky we don’t have rampant property price growth.[emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grunt]

Along with half of the country I didn’t vote for the SNP either so I’ve got to put up with two doses of miserablism I can’t be blamed for. And I already had plenty of my own. :greengrin
On top of that, we're Hibs fans, right? Plenty miserabilism to go round on this forum!

[Berwickhibby]

On top of that, we're Hibs fans, right? Plenty miserabilism to go round on this forum!

Only if you mention Newall, Campbell, Doidge and 22 others lol 🇳🇬🇳🇬🇳🇬🇳🇬🇳🇬:flag:

[Moulin Yarns]

🎙️ Policy Podcast 🎙️

Joining @thecommongreen, today, are past Common Weal team members, @Ben_Wray1989 & James Foley to talk about their book @twosoulsindy which spotlights pro-independence politics post-Brexit & pandemic.

Check back here for the episode later today 👀 https://t.co/yc20SxcclC


A heads up for what should be a good listen.

Here is a link to the podcast. about 50 minutes long. In no way are they sucking up to the SNP. As I've said before, they have other, possibly better ideas, and slate the Growth Commission.

https://commonweal.scot/podcast/the-common-weal-policy-podcast-episode-136/

[ronaldo7]

Whatever ….believe what you like …it’s pish but you carry on

Don't let the facts hit you in the back of the head now.

Labour are in bed with the Tories in several councils. You may want to turn a blind eye to it, but it's happening.

[ronaldo7]

Along with half of the country I didn’t vote for the SNP either so I’ve got to put up with two doses of miserablism I can’t be blamed for. And I already had plenty of my own. :greengrin

Cough, greens.

[degenerated]

Liz truss doubling down

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1555278854738124801?t=ZzeJau-Kik4uQhvTHBc76A&s=19

[grunt]

Liz truss doubling down

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1555278854738124801?t=ZzeJau-Kik4uQhvTHBc76A&s=19

As expected. Sadly this will be supported by unionists in Scotland who delight in seeing their country ridiculed in this way.

[Stairway 2 7]

Liz truss doubling down

https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1555278854738124801?t=ZzeJau-Kik4uQhvTHBc76A&s=19

She's a spiv and it's frightening she will be in charge and her cabinet will be made up of many of the buffoons that have been at the helm of this disaster

[degenerated]

She's a spiv and it's frightening she will be in charge and her cabinet will be made up of many of the buffoons that have been at the helm of this disasterIt frightens me that someone that has the IQ of a crisp is going to be in charge of a country going into recession, energy prices going through the roof, inflationary pressures not seen since the 70s and heightening global instability.

I can't fathom why anyone in their right mind would think we're better off in the UK anymore.

[Skol]

As expected. Sadly this will be supported by unionists in Scotland who delight in seeing their country ridiculed in this way.

I did laugh when I heard her say it. However, whilst I laughed it was an incredibly stupid thing to say and of course she cannot back down now. It shows everything that is wrong about the union and just gives more ammunition to the separatists and does nothing to support the union. It’s almost like the tories want to aid independence which is really quite a sad place to be.

[Hibrandenburg]

It frightens me that someone that has the IQ of a crisp is going to be in charge of a country going into recession, energy prices going through the roof, inflationary pressures not seen since the 70s and heightening global instability.

I can't fathom why anyone in their right mind would think we're better off in the UK anymore.

Because of our musical culture and erm.....Blue passports?

[Hibrandenburg]

I did laugh when I heard her say it. However, whilst I laughed it was an incredibly stupid thing to say and of course she cannot back down now. It shows everything that is wrong about the union and just gives more ammunition to the separatists and does nothing to support the union. It’s almost like the tories want to aid independence which is really quite a sad place to be.

If you're Scottish, then the Tories and their support tolerate you at best. If you sing along to their song then you're a useful idiot.

[grunt]

It’s almost like the tories want to aid independence which is really quite a sad place to be.

The Tories' MO is to create division, setting up enemies for their base to froth and get angry about. Whether it's the immigrants, the EU, woke universities or Remainers, their playbook is to create enemies so that they can keep their supporters focused on being angry and not paying attention to the systematic removal of their rights.

Truss has continued Johnson's work in adding Sturgeon and the wider Scots population to that list of targets for their anger. They could care less about you and me.

And listen to the Tory audience reaction. It works.

[He's here!]

As expected. Sadly this will be supported by unionists in Scotland who delight in seeing their country ridiculed in this way.

It's Sturgeon and her demands for another referendum she has it in for, not Scotland as a country.

Not saying it's a move which won't backfire on Truss but there are plenty folk who would be happy to put all that on 'ignore'. More often than not I'll switch the TV off or change channel when Sturgeon appears to talk about it.

[Skol]

The Tories' MO is to create division, setting up enemies for their base to froth and get angry about. Whether it's the immigrants, the EU, woke universities or Remainers, their playbook is to create enemies so that they can keep their supporters focused on being angry and not paying attention to the systematic removal of their rights.

Truss has continued Johnson's work in adding Sturgeon and the wider Scots population to that list of targets for their anger. They could care less about you and me.

And listen to the Tory audience reaction. It works.


They have a lot in common with the snp then. Shame there is no credible alternative to either.

[Hibrandenburg]

The Tories' MO is to create division, setting up enemies for their base to froth and get angry about. Whether it's the immigrants, the EU, woke universities or Remainers, their playbook is to create enemies so that they can keep their supporters focused on being angry and not paying attention to the systematic removal of their rights.

Truss has continued Johnson's work in adding Sturgeon and the wider Scots population to that list of targets for their anger. They could care less about you and me.

And listen to the Tory audience reaction. It works.

It frustrates me that fellow countrymen, not just Scots, don't see this. The Tories don't give a **** about struggling families in Liverpool, Middlesbrough, Cardiff or Scotland but people keep voting for them. I detest everything the Tories stand for and those who elect them. I have no, zilch, nada respect for anyone who has ever ticked the box next to a Tory candidates name. Rich or poor they're either deluded of selfish.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's Sturgeon and her demands for another referendum she has it in for, not Scotland as a country.

Not saying it's a move which won't backfire on Truss but there are plenty folk who would be happy to put all that on 'ignore'. More often than not I'll switch the TV off or change channel when Sturgeon appears to talk about it.

Aye, it's only Sturgeon that wants Scotland to unshackle itself from Westminster exploitation.

[Steven79]

It frustrates me that fellow countrymen, not just Scots, don't see this. The Tories don't give a **** about struggling families in Liverpool, Middlesbrough, Cardiff or Scotland but people keep voting for them. I detest everything the Tories stand for and those who elect them. I have no, zilch, nada respect for anyone who has ever ticked the box next to a Tory candidates name. Rich or poor they're either deluded of selfish.Or a bit of both.

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[Steven79]

It frightens me that someone that has the IQ of a crisp is going to be in charge of a country going into recession, energy prices going through the roof, inflationary pressures not seen since the 70s and heightening global instability.

I can't fathom why anyone in their right mind would think we're better off in the UK anymore.Me either.

You are either brainwashed or brain dead if up want to remain part of this.

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[Kato]

They have a lot in common with the snp then. Shame there is no credible alternative to either.I've never heard Sturgeon attack immigrants or the EU. I don't hear even that type of rhetoric when they are attacking the Tories in Govt. Whereas its a central plank, day in day out, of the way the Tories operate.


When they want elected by the country they talk about bringing people together and uniting the nation, whereas when they want elected by their members it all goes a bit Nuremberg. Speaks volumes.

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[grunt]

They have a lot in common with the snp then.
The Tories have nothing in common with the SNP.

[grunt]

It's Sturgeon and her demands for another referendum she has it in for, not Scotland as a country.

As you well know, Sturgeon is the FM of Scotland, elected by the Scottish people under an explicit manifesto pledge to hold a second referendum. By ignoring Sturgeon, Truss is ignoring the express will of the Scottish people, democratically determined via election. That democratically expressed will is supported by (what seems to be) a majority of posters on the political threads on here, too. In ignoring Sturgeon, Truss is effectively ignoring Scottish democracy. You may not think so, but Truss is ignoring you too.

Sad to see people in Scotland supporting this criminal Tory fascist coup.

[degenerated]

It's Sturgeon and her demands for another referendum she has it in for, not Scotland as a country.

Not saying it's a move which won't backfire on Truss but there are plenty folk who would be happy to put all that on 'ignore'. More often than not I'll switch the TV off or change channel when Sturgeon appears to talk about it.The Scottish electorate demanded a referendum.

Don't kid yourself, Liz Truss and those little England types that were cheering along to that despise Scottish unionists just as much as they despise those who want Scotland to be a normal country.

[lapsedhibee]

The Scottish electorate demanded a referendum.

Don't kid yourself, Liz Truss and those little England types that were cheering along to that despise Scottish unionists just as much as they despise those who want Scotland to be a normal country.

I doubt whether Truss despises Scottish unionists, and doubt whether she despises Scots of any hue. She's just understood that the people she needs to approve her getting in to power are stupid, and lies accordingly. She'll be prime minister for two years during which time no-one will hold her properly accountable for her continual lying and then even if she gets chucked out at that point she'll be rich for the rest of her life, by giving after dinner speeches to stupid people. A bit less rich than Johnson, since he has irresistible charisma, but rich nonetheless.

[J-C]

I've said it for so long now but if Scotland is a burden to the English, why then are they so determined to keep us in a union many don't want.

[Ozyhibby]

They have a lot in common with the snp then. Shame there is no credible alternative to either.

That statement says a lot about you.


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[Jack]

I've said it for so long now but if Scotland is a burden to the English, why then are they so determined to keep us in a union many don't want.

Me too.

These mercenary torys would get rid of us in a shot if net balance was less than 1p.

They've thrown the UK industries, the NHS and its employees, the sick, the poor (which more of us are becoming), the disabled and many more under a bus. If anyone thinks Scotland and its sponging population is any different they're as thick as Truss!

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/paulcolgan/status/1555184764675653633?s=21&t=G31t4DHQZxf0f9bOMoW3OQ

There is another way.


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[Eaststand]

I've said it for so long now but if Scotland is a burden to the English, why then are they so determined to keep us in a union many don't want.

It's only our many natural assets that they want.

We the Scottish population are only bearable to those little England types as they can continue to claim our assets as their own.

GGTTH

[Jones28]

I've said it for so long now but if Scotland is a burden to the English, why then are they so determined to keep us in a union many don't want.


Oil and water.


Our two biggest natural resources.

Boris Johnson floated (pun intended) plans for a national water grid not so long ago - can you guess why?

[degenerated]

Oil and water.


Our two biggest natural resources.

Boris Johnson floated (pun intended) plans for a national water grid not so long ago - can you guess why?Interesting clip in this tweet.

https://twitter.com/GlasgowBhoy8/status/1555212502593638401?t=oKFSyuUoxFC6uA8DeV2DUA&s=19

[grunt]

Interesting clip in this tweet.

Richard Tice, Brexit Party Chairman and ****.

[Jones28]

Richard Tice, Brexit Party Chairman and ****.

Thats how things like this start. Look at Brexit, once the dream of right wing nut jobs, it seeped in to the mainstream and has now happened.

I genuinely think that the next 15-20 years will see pipelines built to carry water down to the south west of England from the highlands if we don't break away from the UK.

[Ozyhibby]

Thats how things like this start. Look at Brexit, once the dream of right wing nut jobs, it seeped in to the mainstream and has now happened.

I genuinely think that the next 15-20 years will see pipelines built to carry water down to the south west of England from the highlands if we don't break away from the UK.

So long as we are independent then I’ve no problem with selling water to people south of the border who need it.


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[Skol]

That statement says a lot about you.


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What does it say about me. Original statement was along lines of the tories being divisive and creating enemies for their supporters. That the snp all over as well

[James310]

So long as we are independent then I’ve no problem with selling water to people south of the border who need it.


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Doesn't this say a lot about you? If we aren't Independent, which is now, you do have a problem sharing water with England if they need it? Why?

And if we were Independent then you seem to be suggesting some people might have a problem even selling water to England. Why would anyone have a problem with that?

[Ozyhibby]

Doesn't this say a lot about you? If we aren't Independent, which is now, you do have a problem sharing water with England if they need it? Why?

And if we were Independent then you seem to be suggesting some people might have a problem even selling water to England. Why would anyone have a problem with that?

I’m in favour of exporting rather than just giving things away. [emoji106]


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[Berwickhibby]

What does it say about me. Original statement was along lines of the tories being divisive and creating enemies for their supporters. That the snp all over as well

Now now Mr Skol… you must know by now you cannot criticise the Ess Enn Pee on the Holy Ground … :greengrin

[James310]

I’m in favour of exporting rather than just giving things away. [emoji106]


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But why would anyone have a problem selling water to England after Independence?

[Zambernardi1875]

But why would anyone have a problem selling water to England after Independence?

Could we not trade water for something England have which we need like….erm..

[Ozyhibby]

But why would anyone have a problem selling water to England after Independence?

No idea, I certainly don’t.


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[grunt]

No idea, I certainly don’t.
This conversation has taken a strange turn this afternoon. :confused:

[Stairway 2 7]

Are we not net gainers from Barnet

[ronaldo7]

This conversation has taken a strange turn this afternoon. :confused:

I thought it was on hold until October 12th. :rolleyes:

[Jones28]

Doesn't this say a lot about you? If we aren't Independent, which is now, you do have a problem sharing water with England if they need it? Why?

And if we were Independent then you seem to be suggesting some people might have a problem even selling water to England. Why would anyone have a problem with that?

Sharing, as in giving away, or selling as in exporting for money?

[weecounty hibby]

Sharing, as in giving away, or selling as in exporting for money?

Sharing. Probably in the same way that Wales shares her water with England via Severn Trent water. 243 billion litres per year. ST water make huge profits, none if which see their way back to Wales

[Kato]

What does it say about me. Original statement was along lines of the tories being divisive and creating enemies for their supporters. That the snp all over as wellWhich enemies has she created?

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[CropleyWasGod]

Are we not net gainers from Barnet

David Stephens.

Gain or loss? Discuss.

[Moulin Yarns]

David Stephens.

Gain or loss? Discuss.

Appears to have got better after leaving, so I'll go for loss :greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

said for years now i wouldn't mind paying extra tax to help all in society, now and after Independence, Tories would be horrified helping towards those less fortunate :agree:

behind a paywall so........

Thursday August 04 2022, 12.01am, The Times

A majority of Scots would be happy for the nation’s benefits system to be more generous even if it meant they paid higher taxes, according to research published today.
A report also found 79 per cent were in favour of a minimum income guarantee (MIG) being introduced.
Researchers from IPPR Scotland, a think tank, also called for the introduction of free bus travel and childcare grants for anyone in receipt of low- income benefits.

An MIG would see the state ensuring no households fell below a certain level of income. The policy idea has been gaining traction in recent years, with the Scottish government initially looking at a universal basic income which would have applied to every adult in the country.
However, analysis by the Fraser of Allander Institute warned income tax rates in Scotland would have to increase to between 58 and 85 per cent to provide a basic income of £11,000 to working-age adults.

The SNP has since shifted to favour an MIG, which would be a means-tested method more targeted at lower- income households and groups, such as single parents or disabled people, who are generally at higher risks of poverty.
The income could be provided through a range of areas including benefits and tax relief as well as services such as childcare and transport.
IPPR Scotland, in the Towards a Living Income report released today, suggests a minimum monthly income of £1,521 for a lone parent family and £2,348 for couples with children.
Polling of almost 1,100 people conducted for the think tank found 55 per cent would be in favour of benefits and social security being more generous even if that meant a slight increase in their own personal taxes.

There were 72 per cent who supported an increase in benefits to people with disabilities even if it left them with a higher tax bill. Fifty-nine per cent were happy to pay more tax if larger benefits were paid to lone parents.
IPPR Scotland would also like to see eligibility for the Scottish child payment widened to cover young people aged 16 to 19 while in education or training. The think tank also wants agencies to work more closely to ensure anyone in receipt of devolved benefits can be fast-tracked towards other help such as employment support.
Philip Whyte, the director of the think tank, said: “Today IPPR Scotland set out practical, realistic steps . . . that the Scottish government can start implementing quickly using existing powers to further boost incomes through social security, help people to access secure and well-paid work, and reducing costs through the services they use.
Mubin Haq, chief executive of Abrdn Financial Fairness Trust, said: “By committing to delivering a Minimum Income Guarantee the Scottish government has pledged to shore up living standards.

[stoneyburn hibs]

said for years now i wouldn't mind paying extra tax to help all in society, now and after Independence, Tories would be horrified helping towards those less fortunate :agree:

behind a paywall so........

Thursday August 04 2022, 12.01am, The Times

A majority of Scots would be happy for the nation’s benefits system to be more generous even if it meant they paid higher taxes, according to research published today.
A report also found 79 per cent were in favour of a minimum income guarantee (MIG) being introduced.
Researchers from IPPR Scotland, a think tank, also called for the introduction of free bus travel and childcare grants for anyone in receipt of low- income benefits.

An MIG would see the state ensuring no households fell below a certain level of income. The policy idea has been gaining traction in recent years, with the Scottish government initially looking at a universal basic income which would have applied to every adult in the country.
However, analysis by the Fraser of Allander Institute warned income tax rates in Scotland would have to increase to between 58 and 85 per cent to provide a basic income of £11,000 to working-age adults.

The SNP has since shifted to favour an MIG, which would be a means-tested method more targeted at lower- income households and groups, such as single parents or disabled people, who are generally at higher risks of poverty.
The income could be provided through a range of areas including benefits and tax relief as well as services such as childcare and transport.
IPPR Scotland, in the Towards a Living Income report released today, suggests a minimum monthly income of £1,521 for a lone parent family and £2,348 for couples with children.
Polling of almost 1,100 people conducted for the think tank found 55 per cent would be in favour of benefits and social security being more generous even if that meant a slight increase in their own personal taxes.

There were 72 per cent who supported an increase in benefits to people with disabilities even if it left them with a higher tax bill. Fifty-nine per cent were happy to pay more tax if larger benefits were paid to lone parents.
IPPR Scotland would also like to see eligibility for the Scottish child payment widened to cover young people aged 16 to 19 while in education or training. The think tank also wants agencies to work more closely to ensure anyone in receipt of devolved benefits can be fast-tracked towards other help such as employment support.
Philip Whyte, the director of the think tank, said: “Today IPPR Scotland set out practical, realistic steps . . . that the Scottish government can start implementing quickly using existing powers to further boost incomes through social security, help people to access secure and well-paid work, and reducing costs through the services they use.
Mubin Haq, chief executive of Abrdn Financial Fairness Trust, said: “By committing to delivering a Minimum Income Guarantee the Scottish government has pledged to shore up living standards.


I'd personally give up going out with friends and family, cut down on my spending and definitely cut back on the heating for Independence.
Looking for tips on what I'm already doing.

[Glory Lurker]

Paying tax is a patriotic duty.

[Skol]

Which enemies has she created?

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Yoons

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11085515/Liz-Trusss-vow-ignore-Nicola-Sturgeon-verbal-warfare-SNP-craves-warns-GORDON-BROWN.html

Broon certainly knows where his base is these days. The article itself is absolute drivel as well. He was once capable of so much better.


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[grunt]

Sunak wades in, completely oblivious to how democracy works.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZeGd4nWIAU8TZl?format=jpg&name=large

[Ozyhibby]

Sunak wades in, completely oblivious to how democracy works.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZeGd4nWIAU8TZl?format=jpg&name=large

They love that union flag.[emoji106]


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[archie]

Paying tax is a patriotic duty.Yes - so much so that you are not a patriot if you do not take a second job so you can pay more tax!

[Kato]

YoonsIs that it?

There is no comparison. The Tories would cause a fight in an empty hoose and have the spoons hating the forks.

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[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/how-to-be-an-independent-country-scotlands-choices/id1632206170?i=1000575084182

This weeks Scotsman podcast on independence. This one is all about currency. Really good listen.


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[Smartie]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-11085515/Liz-Trusss-vow-ignore-Nicola-Sturgeon-verbal-warfare-SNP-craves-warns-GORDON-BROWN.html

Broon certainly knows where his base is these days. The article itself is absolute drivel as well. He was once capable of so much better.


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I actually think he makes a fair few good points in there, alongside some drivel.

[Kato]

I actually think he makes a fair few good points in there, alongside some drivel.A co-operation council would be a good idea.

Include reps from the UKs larger cities, the specialist regions, agriculture, industry, trade unions, academia - wherever really. The country is in a sorry, panicy, unconfident place and a step towards tangible ideas to face the CoL crisis, the new tariffs we imposed on ourselves and energy change could work.

Its not as though the UK hasn't faced crisis before and it has always been specialists and experts that have dragged us clear.

What's the point though, you know what I mean?

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[Glory Lurker]

Yes - so much so that you are not a patriot if you do not take a second job so you can pay more tax!

No, but calling for tax cuts when the national debt is through the roof is madness. This should be on the Tory thread of course.

[archie]

No, but calling for tax cuts when the national debt is through the roof is madness. This should be on the Tory thread of course.

As it happens I agree re tax cuts. It just the notion of 'patriotic duty' sounds almost Stalinist. It implies a moral failing if people don't pay enough tax. Was it a patriotic duty to pay the poll tax?

[Glory Lurker]

As it happens I agree re tax cuts. It just the notion of 'patriotic duty' sounds almost Stalinist. It implies a moral failing if people don't pay enough tax. Was it a patriotic duty to pay the poll tax?

Local duty, aye.

[He's here!]

Sunak wades in, completely oblivious to how democracy works.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZeGd4nWIAU8TZl?format=jpg&name=large

Truss enrages the SNP by saying she'll ignore them. Sunak says he certainly won't ignore them yet also enrages them...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62447465

[Ozyhibby]

Truss enrages the SNP by saying she'll ignore them. Sunak says he certainly won't ignore them yet also enrages them...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62447465

There are lots of other ways this Tory govt enrages me.


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[grunt]

Truss enrages the SNP by saying she'll ignore them. Sunak says he certainly won't ignore them yet also enrages them...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62447465

"The former chancellor said his future reforms would ensure "every single" government department operates UK-wide, despite key policy areas like education and health having been in the control of Holyrood since devolution in 1999."

And you wonder why we're enraged? He's trampling all over the devolution settlement. But I guess you don't mind him acting illegally because he's doing something that suits you. It won't be the same when he acts illegally and it affects you in a way you don't agree with.

[Skol]

Is that it?

There is no comparison. The Tories would cause a fight in an empty hoose and have the spoons hating the forks.

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Topical

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/liberal-democrat-councillor-shaken-after-27680171.amp

[Ozyhibby]

Topical

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/liberal-democrat-councillor-shaken-after-27680171.amp

The venom from ACH.[emoji23]


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[danhibees1875]

The venom from ACH.[emoji23]


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That's an interesting take on that story...

[Skol]

That's an interesting take on that story...

I guess that tells us a lot about the poster. Rather than call it out for what it is, unacceptable behaviour, there is a rather odd retort instead.

[Kato]

I guess that tells us a lot about the poster. Rather than call it out for what it is, unacceptable behaviour, there is a rather odd retort instead.It is unacceptable behaviour.

Is linking it to Sturgeon any better?

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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220808/d8b88ce9aaed945768690dd57e21f7f3.jpg


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[danhibees1875]

It is unacceptable behaviour.

Is linking it to Sturgeon any better?

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Has he linked it to Sturgeon? ACH said this:

"Completely unacceptable. I’ve spoken with Kevin and this was a politically motivated assault by an SNP supporter.
The guy in question can now explain his particular brand of civic and joyous nationalism to Police Scotland.”

If you're asking whether saying those words is better than assaulting someone on the street... Yes, probably.

[Ozyhibby]

Stuffing leaflets back down the shirt of politicians should be condemned by all.
We have to be very careful about what replaces democracy when it is withdrawn. History tells us it’s not usually good.


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[Kato]

Has he linked it to Sturgeon? ACH said this:

"Completely unacceptable. I’ve spoken with Kevin and this was a politically motivated assault by an SNP supporter.
The guy in question can now explain his particular brand of civic and joyous nationalism to Police Scotland.”

If you're asking whether saying those words is better than assaulting someone on the street... Yes, probably.Skol linked her to it.

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[lapsedhibee]

Has he linked it to Sturgeon? ACH said this:

"Completely unacceptable. I’ve spoken with Kevin and this was a politically motivated assault by an SNP supporter.
The guy in question can now explain his particular brand of civic and joyous nationalism to Police Scotland.”

If you're asking whether saying those words is better than assaulting someone on the street... Yes, probably.

Unless it's SNP policy to stuff other parties' leaflets down people's shirts, Cole-Hamilton might have been better to condemn the behaviour and hope that the perp gets help with his/her mental health issue. Talking about 'politically motivated assaults' doesn't seem quite right.

[Ozyhibby]

Unless it's SNP policy to stuff other parties' leaflets down people's shirts, Cole-Hamilton might have been better to condemn the behaviour and hope that the perp gets help with his/her mental health issue. Talking about 'politically motivated assaults' doesn't seem quite right.

Especially when your talking about an old age pensioner.


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[ronaldo7]

Has he linked it to Sturgeon? ACH said this:

"Completely unacceptable. I’ve spoken with Kevin and this was a politically motivated assault by an SNP supporter.
The guy in question can now explain his particular brand of civic and joyous nationalism to Police Scotland.”

If you're asking whether saying those words is better than assaulting someone on the street... Yes, probably.

I'd have though ACH would be keeping his head down when this type of thing comes up, considering his behaviour towards a female MSP.

I'm sure the local party could have dealt with this, and just told the assailant to **** off.

As has been said earlier, when you deny democracy, some folk take things into their own hands. Let's hope people try and keep a lid on things.

[Skol]

Skol linked her to it.

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No I didn’t

[Stairway 2 7]

Won't be a problem for us as we will retain some army and join nata, will surely have to a pact with the uk also.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40934678.html

Is Ireland in danger of becoming a de facto British protectorate

[Ozyhibby]

Won't be a problem for us as we will retain some army and join nata, will surely have to a pact with the uk also.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40934678.html

Is Ireland in danger of becoming a de facto British protectorate

I’d say the Atlantic Ocean is Ireland biggest defence. Beside’s, the only country to ever invade it was Britain.


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[ronaldo7]

Especially when your talking about an old age pensioner.


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65 year old pensioner arrested, and subsequently set free without charge.

[Kato]

No I didn’tApologies. What did you mean by what you said in post 20034?

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[Ozyhibby]

65 year old pensioner arrested, and subsequently set free without charge.

ACH will be gutted the pensioner was not jailed.


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[degenerated]

ACH will be gutted the pensioner was not jailed.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDid the guy not just grab Lang and shove his leaflet down his shirt.

Kevin Lang is an arrogant ******** who was fortunate not to get his leaflet shoved up his erse at my door when he was out canvassing for council elections. Not that I am advocating people assaulting him though.

[Ozyhibby]

Did the guy not just grab Lang and shove his leaflet down his shirt.

Kevin Lang is an arrogant ******** who was fortunate not to get his leaflet shoved up his erse at my door when he was out canvassing for council elections. Not that I am advocating people assaulting him though.

It appears that’s exactly what the OAP done but as ACH is a very vindictive angry entitled little man, he jumped on the chance to portray this as the start of a military wing of the SNP.


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[The Modfather]

Did the guy not just grab Lang and shove his leaflet down his shirt.

Kevin Lang is an arrogant ******** who was fortunate not to get his leaflet shoved up his erse at my door when he was out canvassing for council elections. Not that I am advocating people assaulting him though.

It’s not a normal reaction though is it. I get all manner of junk leaflets through the door and they go straight in the recycling. I wouldn’t think to “just” grab whoever put it through the door and shove it down their shirt.

Kevin Lang might be a cretin, I’ve never heard of him until today, but it sounds like the cretin in this story is the pension.

[He's here!]

It’s not a normal reaction though is it. I get all manner of junk leaflets through the door and they go straight in the recycling. I wouldn’t think to “just” grab whoever put it through the door and shove it down their shirt.

Kevin Lang might be a cretin, I’ve never heard of him until today, but it sounds like the cretin in this story is the pension.

Agreed.

[Skol]

Apologies. What did you mean by what you said in post 20034?

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I don’t see a post of that number?

[DaveF]

65 year old pensioner arrested, and subsequently set free without charge.

You sure he was released without charge, as reporting Scotland just said there was an assault and he was arrested.

[degenerated]

It’s not a normal reaction though is it. I get all manner of junk leaflets through the door and they go straight in the recycling. I wouldn’t think to “just” grab whoever put it through the door and shove it down their shirt.

Kevin Lang might be a cretin, I’ve never heard of him until today, but it sounds like the cretin in this story is the pension.He was a smug condescending erse when I spoke to him on my doorstep. He was actually quite rude and was trying to make a snide remark as he walked off. Now I'm quite a mild mannered person so I just got the final word in and left it but not everyone is going to take well to his unfortunate manner.

On that basis I'd like to hear both sides of the story before taking the word of the likes of Cole Hamilton as gospel.

[Kato]

I don’t see a post of that number?

This one. Where you link our somewhat scattered conversation about Sturgeon creating as many enemies out of thin air to the recent leaflet-attack on a LibDem.




Topical

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/liberal-democrat-councillor-shaken-after-27680171.amp



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[Kato]

He was a smug condescending erse when I spoke to him on my doorstep. He was actually quite rude and was trying to make a snide remark as he walked off. Now I'm quite a mild mannered person so I just got the final word in and left it but not everyone is going to take well to his unfortunate manner.

On that basis I'd like to hear both sides of the story before taking the word of the likes of Cole Hamilton as gospel.Had the same from him. A chippy blowhard who thought he was the smartest person in the conversation, he turned out to be wrong.

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[ronaldo7]

You sure he was released without charge, as reporting Scotland just said there was an assault and he was arrested.

STV, Scotsman, evening news all saying the same. It wouldn't be BBC shortbread if it wasn't out of step.

[StevieC]

Did the guy not just grab Lang and shove his leaflet down his shirt.

Kevin Lang is an arrogant ******** who was fortunate not to get his leaflet shoved up his erse at my door when he was out canvassing for council elections. Not that I am advocating people assaulting him though.

To be fair, canvassing at election time can be a dangerous game .. I had more than one red faced Tory chasing me down the street waving a leaflet that I’d just popped through their letterbox. 😉

[Ozyhibby]

To be fair, canvassing at election time can be a dangerous game .. I had more than one red faced Tory chasing me down the street waving a leaflet that I’d just popped through their letterbox. [emoji6]

You need to wear a lose neck shirt to make it easier for them to stuff it down.[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220808/0862e098c1875a53f269a0528645c276.jpg


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[Moulin Yarns]

65 year old pensioner arrested, and subsequently set free without charge.

How is the guy a pensioner? If he is 65 then he will have to wait until he is 66 for his state pension!

[Moulin Yarns]

STV, Scotsman, evening news all saying the same. It wouldn't be BBC shortbread if it wasn't out of step.

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/man-arrested-after-lib-dem-councillor-kevin-lang-attacked-on-dundas-avenue-south-queenferry-released

Confirms that.

[Moulin Yarns]

To be fair, canvassing at election time can be a dangerous game .. I had more than one red faced Tory chasing me down the street waving a leaflet that I’d just popped through their letterbox. 😉

That's Caledonian Crescent residents for you 😂

[Ozyhibby]

UK govt have submitted their case to Supreme Court. It’s not published yet.


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[Moulin Yarns]

UK govt have submitted their case to Supreme Court. It’s not published yet.


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I've had a sneak preview, quite short.






Not at this time.

[grunt]

I've had a sneak preview, quite short.

Not at this time.
"Now is not the time".

[JeMeSouviens]

Previously lukewarm Yes supporter Neil Mackay in the Herald:


SOMETHING broke in me the other day. Ping! I could hear it snap. It took me a while to work out it was a sense of hope shattering. Not generic ‘hope’, about life and the world, in a Dante’s Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here type of way. But hope about this country. And when I say this country, I mean the United Kingdom.

I now simply feel a sad sense of resignation that Britain is irredeemably ruined as a project. And that’s what the UK has always been – a project, an idea, a bit like a cut-price America, attempting to bring disparate groups of people together under one unifying concept of ‘Britishness’. But Britishness is done – Britain can’t be fixed – and it’s Westminster which killed it.

For years, I’ve been what I termed a ‘moderate, pragmatic’ supporter of independence. Moderate in that I hate flags, I detest nationalism of all stripes, and I’ve no time for exceptionalism. Scotland isn’t special to me. Nowhere is special. We’re all just people. It’s political systems which are problematic. And pragmatic in the sense that the pros of splitting with England have to outweigh the cons – that the Yes movement, and the SNP in particular, must make cast iron the case for separation.

However, I now see independence as a necessity. I maintain my moderation – I still detest flags and nationalism, and all that ‘wha’s like us’ nonsense. But I struggle to find pragmatic conditions any more which militate against independence.

Unionists claim voters like me risk making Scotland poorer with our Yes votes. That’s important to me as, really, the only issue that’s ever motivated me politically is the desire to make life fairer and more equal for the weakest in society. But economically, the UK is now ruined. Why should I wish to be part of a nation which can no longer feed its citizens, or keep its children warm?

Westminster, with its suicidal adherence to Brexit, has slit the UK’s throat. Labour, so thoroughly coopted by the right, fears even to say the B word. In fact, Brexit is the new political correctness: question this form of English nationalism, English separatism, and you’re heretical. Why would I wish to stick around for the final act of Britain dying alone on the stage?

So I ask myself: might currency, borders, and trade with England hurt Scotland after a Yes vote? Well, perhaps, maybe even very likely. But will remaining in the UK be any better? I don’t believe so. In truth, I believe that remaining in the UK will make life worse for Scottish people. Perhaps – and there’s no guarantees – re-entry into Europe would actually improve life for Scotland in comparison to the rest of the UK. Some may accuse me of jumping from a sinking ship into a leaking lifeboat. Fair enough. Who wouldn’t?

What Westminster offers today is life under the hard right. So I’m being asked to support the impoverishment of myself, and the rest of Britain, under a system which I consider morally abhorrent. I’d prefer to be poor and keep some decency alive, than be poor and suffer the destruction of my values under an extremist political system.

The sense of hope which snapped in me was really the last remaining vestiges of belief that Westminster could be reformed. As I’m neither a nationalist nor someone who thinks Scotland is special nor wraps themselves in the Saltire, why would I wish unnecessarily to break the union if I believed Westminster could be fixed and made to work for the people rather than the powerful? If Westminster was fixable, I may even find myself capable of supporting the Union. But Westminster is far past redemption.

The unbelievable is happening: Tories are shaping up to give us a worse Prime Minister than Boris Johnson. The feather on the scale for me – the events which tipped me from moderate pragmatism, towards the belief that independence is a necessity – has been the conduct of Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak.

When Sunak boasted that he’d deliberately moved money from the poorest to the richest – like some ghastly Sheriff of Nottingham; when Truss sneered that she’d give no ‘handouts’ to the poor (this from a woman who takes monthly handouts from British taxpayers in the form of her enormous salary), I just gave up any hope that Britain can be made better. The words of the old song will now play forever in Westminster: ‘One thing’s sure and nothing’s surer, the rich get rich and the poor get poorer’.

Sunak says he'll target people as extremists if they dare ‘vilify' Britain; Truss vows to clamp down on the right to protest – even more than Conservatives have already clamped down. Tories plan to destroy trade unions. While Britain collapses, Johnson holidays. We’ve no effective government any more. This isn’t lazy, it’s criminal.

If my views on independence have hardened, that doesn’t mean I’ll go soft on the Scottish Government. I’ll remain the harshest possible critic of a weak, ineffectual, overweening, arrogant and hypocritical SNP, and the Greens they’ve coopted.

In fact, I’ll be harsher than before as neither party has put a convincing case to undecideds that independence will work for Scotland. The only way to convince undecideds is to govern Scotland well – something the SNP and Greens have failed at spectacularly. So there’ll be no disgraceful ‘wheest for indy’ from me. In truth, though, Holyrood’s sins are gnats compared to the monsters of Westminster.

My hope is that if – when – Scotland ever leaves the Union (and that’s obviously a big ‘if’ currently) the SNP and Greens will be booted from power, and the nation can vote for genuine, transformative social democracy.

It’s Tory corruption and extremism, together with Labour’s sheer bloody uselessness, which makes the case for independence – not the SNP. If even a scintilla of hope remained that unionists wanted to reform Britain, then I wouldn’t be where I am now politically. But we all know reform won’t happen, so why pretend? Thus I’m left here at this juncture: with all belief in Britain gone, yet enough hope lingering – just – that perhaps, Scotland can set a better course on her own.

[grunt]

Previously lukewarm Yes supporter Neil Mackay in the Herald:
Thanks for posting. Interesting article, much of which I agree with. In many ways his argument is the same as mine.

I think he gets a wee bit tangled up in his anti SNP comments towards the end, complaining that they're weak but at the same time their downsides are as nothing compared to Westminster. So which is it?

[Jones28]

Thanks for posting. Interesting article, much of which I agree with. In many ways his argument is the same as mine.

I think he gets a wee bit tangled up in his anti SNP comments towards the end, complaining that they're weak but at the same time their downsides are as nothing compared to Westminster. So which is it?

Both those statements can apply can’t they?

[grunt]

Both those statements can apply can’t they?
Well yes of course they can, I just think it weakens the good argument he makes in the previous 12 paragraphs about the Tories.
"I've had a lightbulb moment and I now think that independence is ok", followed by, "of course the SNP and the Greens are still awful".
It's almost as though he remembered right at the end that he doesn't like the SNP either, and felt he had to include that in the article.

Just my reading of it.

[Ozyhibby]

Well yes of course they can, I just think it weakens the good argument he makes in the previous 12 paragraphs about the Tories.
"I've had a lightbulb moment and I now think that independence is ok", followed by, "of course the SNP and the Greens are still awful".
It's almost as though he remembered right at the end that he doesn't like the SNP either, and felt he had to include that in the article.

Just my reading of it.

I think the default statement from unionists and media, especially media south of the border is to say that the SNP is failing. There is never any evidence produced to show how much better England is doing of course. It’s just that the SNP is failing. And the reason is that they said so.


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[Smartie]

Well yes of course they can, I just think it weakens the good argument he makes in the previous 12 paragraphs about the Tories.
"I've had a lightbulb moment and I now think that independence is ok", followed by, "of course the SNP and the Greens are still awful".
It's almost as though he remembered right at the end that he doesn't like the SNP either, and felt he had to include that in the article.

Just my reading of it.

I don't think it's an unreasonable stance.

You can support independence, accept that the SNP/ greens are a vehicle to get there yet be constructively critical of aspects of their performance in government.

I find it more credible a position to hold than those who defend every single thing that the SNP do to the tiniest little detail.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think it's an unreasonable stance.

You can support independence, accept that the SNP/ greens are a vehicle to get there yet be constructively critical of aspects of their performance in government.

I find it more credible a position to hold than those who defend every single thing that the SNP do to the tiniest little detail.

I’m in the middle of that. I think the SNP are a govt who never take risks and I understand why. Would be nice if they did a lot more but I know that their central aim of independence requires them at all times to project stability. I also think they have got lucky in that there isn’t another govt in the UK performing better so there are no alternatives out there.
The SNP are far from perfect but let’s face it, when it comes to running the SG, there are no credible alternatives.
I think the situation in Westminster will prove unsustainable to Scots in ever larger numbers going forward.


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[JeMeSouviens]

I don't think it's an unreasonable stance.

You can support independence, accept that the SNP/ greens are a vehicle to get there yet be constructively critical of aspects of their performance in government.

I find it more credible a position to hold than those who defend every single thing that the SNP do to the tiniest little detail.

Agreed.

Although I think ...

"The only way to convince undecideds is to govern Scotland well – something the SNP and Greens have failed at spectacularly."

is way over the top, personally.

[Just Alf]

I don't think it's an unreasonable stance.

You can support independence, accept that the SNP/ greens are a vehicle to get there yet be constructively critical of aspects of their performance in government.

I find it more credible a position to hold than those who defend every single thing that the SNP do to the tiniest little detail.That's how I see it as well, I'm still fairly sure they'll (snp) make up the 1st post indy government but I also strongly suspect a lot of voters, and SNP members, even politicians will quite quickly gravitate towards parties that are a more natural "fit" for their political ideology.

Big question remains if that'll be a revitalised Scottish Labour or Conservative party or something new.

[Moulin Yarns]

Well yes of course they can, I just think it weakens the good argument he makes in the previous 12 paragraphs about the Tories.
"I've had a lightbulb moment and I now think that independence is ok", followed by, "of course the SNP and the Greens are still awful".
It's almost as though he remembered right at the end that he doesn't like the SNP either, and felt he had to include that in the article.

Just my reading of it.

To be honest, I agree, independence is the best option, but are the SNP the best vehicle for it.

[He's here!]

Previously lukewarm Yes supporter Neil Mackay in the Herald:

I guess he's got a word count to meet, but that's a long-winded way of saying 'things have got so bad I guess I might as well vote SNP'.

[Ozyhibby]

I guess he's got a word count to meet, but that's a long-winded way of saying 'things have got so bad I guess I might as well vote SNP'.

Independence. It’s independence he now supports, not the SNP.


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[He's here!]

Agreed.

Although I think ...

"The only way to convince undecideds is to govern Scotland well – something the SNP and Greens have failed at spectacularly."

is way over the top, personally.

Bit early perhaps to be putting the boot into the Greens, although I guess handing them a seat at the top table with their toxic gender views is a good example of unsound governance by the SNP.

One aspect of the SNP's governance where I would concede they've been ticking the right boxes is in their approach to child poverty. Otherwise they represent, for me, the worst aspects of 'Scottishness'. Dour, crabbit, chippy and endlessly nursing a grievance. Anything negative can be blamed on Westminster while anything positive can be framed along the lines of 'look how much better we could be doing if freed from Westminster shackles'. The reason the SNP get so agitated by the level of flak which has come their way over the ferries scandal is because they have nowhere to turn over a spectacular blunder which was entirely of their own making. Ditto the catalogue of ****-ups which lead to the Salmond High Court fiasco, while the mind-boggling drugs deaths stats on Sturgeon's watch can't be explained away by a lack of devolved powers.

Now we appear to have reached a stage where all pretence at sound governance is to be jettisoned in favour of fighting a general election as a 'de facto' referendum - as though such a thing actually exists.

Politics in the UK has been at a desperately low ebb for a number of years now, but is voting for the least worst option really the best we can do?

On a more general note, I do sometimes wonder what rational person would actually want to become a politician these days. Perhaps the scarcity of such MPs/MSPs reflects that and accounts for the current rather depressing landscape.

[grunt]

The reason the SNP get so agitated by the level of flak which has come their way over the ferries scandal is because they have nowhere to turn over a spectacular blunder which was entirely of their own making. "Spectacular blunder"? Pales somewhat into insignificance when you compare it to buying £12bn of PPE and then chucking £10bn of it away? I think you've been reading too much of the Scottish red top rubbishy papers.


Politics in the UK has been at a desperately low ebb for a number of years now, but is voting for the least worst option really the best we can do?I don't know. Maybe it IS the best we can do. (Not that I think the SNP is the least worst - I think their successes make them a clear choice in Scotland). What do you think?

[Ozyhibby]

Bit early perhaps to be putting the boot into the Greens, although I guess handing them a seat at the top table with their toxic gender views is a good example of unsound governance by the SNP.

One aspect of the SNP's governance where I would concede they've been ticking the right boxes is in their approach to child poverty. Otherwise they represent, for me, the worst aspects of 'Scottishness'. Dour, crabbit, chippy and endlessly nursing a grievance. Anything negative can be blamed on Westminster while anything positive can be framed along the lines of 'look how much better we could be doing if freed from Westminster shackles'. The reason the SNP get so agitated by the level of flak which has come their way over the ferries scandal is because they have nowhere to turn over a spectacular blunder which was entirely of their own making. Ditto the catalogue of ****-ups which lead to the Salmond High Court fiasco, while the mind-boggling drugs deaths stats on Sturgeon's watch can't be explained away by a lack of devolved powers.

Now we appear to have reached a stage where all pretence at sound governance is to be jettisoned in favour of fighting a general election as a 'de facto' referendum - as though such a thing actually exists.

Politics in the UK has been at a desperately low ebb for a number of years now, but is voting for the least worst option really the best we can do?

On a more general note, I do sometimes wonder what rational person would actually want to become a politician these days. Perhaps the scarcity of such MPs/MSPs reflects that and accounts for the current rather depressing landscape.

Is that it? A botched procurement process and a mistake by the procurator fiscal? No wonder they keep winning.[emoji23]


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[ronaldo7]

Bit early perhaps to be putting the boot into the Greens, although I guess handing them a seat at the top table with their toxic gender views is a good example of unsound governance by the SNP.

One aspect of the SNP's governance where I would concede they've been ticking the right boxes is in their approach to child poverty. Otherwise they represent, for me, the worst aspects of 'Scottishness'. Dour, crabbit, chippy and endlessly nursing a grievance. Anything negative can be blamed on Westminster while anything positive can be framed along the lines of 'look how much better we could be doing if freed from Westminster shackles'. The reason the SNP get so agitated by the level of flak which has come their way over the ferries scandal is because they have nowhere to turn over a spectacular blunder which was entirely of their own making. Ditto the catalogue of ****-ups which lead to the Salmond High Court fiasco, while the mind-boggling drugs deaths stats on Sturgeon's watch can't be explained away by a lack of devolved powers.

Now we appear to have reached a stage where all pretence at sound governance is to be jettisoned in favour of fighting a general election as a 'de facto' referendum - as though such a thing actually exists.

Politics in the UK has been at a desperately low ebb for a number of years now, but is voting for the least worst option really the best we can do?

On a more general note, I do sometimes wonder what rational person would actually want to become a politician these days. Perhaps the scarcity of such MPs/MSPs reflects that and accounts for the current rather depressing landscape.

The worst aspects of "scottishness" are of those who continue talking Scotland down. Some of them don't even know that Birmingham is in a different country. 😲

I'll continue to fight to get us out of a union, where governments of both persuasions can't get their act together, and would rather leave people destitute, and fighting to stay alive. This winter is going to be a bleak one.

Their continued lackadaisical approach to Russian money flooding into especially the Tories, and Labour's failure to stand with the workers, and refusing to nationalise industries. The pledges purged from the labour leaders lips doesn't fill me with confidence that we can't do better than both of them.

That's all before we start with the waste of money filling Tories bank accounts during the pandemic.

Sometimes we need to lift our eyes to see what we're actually achieving.

[Kato]

the worst aspects of 'Scottishness'. Dour, crabbit, chippy and endlessly nursing a grievance.





Blimey.


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[Ozyhibby]

Blimey.


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It’s how some people see us I guess? A weird world view if you happen to be Scottish right enough.[emoji51]


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[Kato]

It’s how some people see us I guess? A weird world view if you happen to be Scottish right enough.[emoji51]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIt's a kailyard stereotype. A Music Hall trope that gathered pace and stuck with English hacks.

I personally don't recognise those things as Scottish at all.

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[degenerated]

It's a kailyard stereotype. A Music Hall trope that gathered pace and stuck with English hacks.

I personally don't recognise those things as Scottish at all.

Sent from my SM-A528B using TapatalkI think it's a symptom of Jockholm Syndrome

[lapsedhibee]

the worst aspects of 'Scottishness'. Dour, crabbit, chippy and endlessly nursing a grievance.

Mibbe time to start hanging out with some new pals? :dunno:

[Kato]

Are the SNP policies, outwith them wanting Scotland to be independent, grievence driven?

They describe themselves as having a progressive outlook so, is there much grievence even in the rhetoric of their actual policies?

Which party in the UK does have grievence driven policies? I think the answer might be obvious.

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[Glory Lurker]

HH's description is applicable to me, but thankfully I'm not representative of our population as a whole :-)

[greenlex]

I guess he's got a word count to meet, but that's a long-winded way of saying 'things have got so bad I guess I might as well vote SNP'.
You should actually read it.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcphilipsim/status/1557299336668659714?s=21&t=d_VWBU3lFuzD4rKYETIAdQ

UK govt legal arguments against self determination are up.


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[Col2]

I have not voted previously for independence and felt the timing of a new vote was wrong (post COVID) but I would now rather take my chances on our and future generations as an independent country with huge natural resources, innovation etc than continue with being part of Englands fascist corrupt, insular and self distructive agenda and direction.

I am ashamed to be part of the UK. It is completely broken and will never recover.

[Ozyhibby]

I have not voted previously for independence and felt the timing of a new vote was wrong (post COVID) but I would now rather take my chances on our and future generations as an independent country with huge natural resources, innovation etc than continue with being part of Englands fascist corrupt, insular and self distructive agenda and direction.

I am ashamed to be part of the UK. It is completely broken and will never recover.

Welcome aboard. [emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]


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[He's here!]

I have not voted previously for independence and felt the timing of a new vote was wrong (post COVID) but I would now rather take my chances on our and future generations as an independent country with huge natural resources, innovation etc than continue with being part of Englands fascist corrupt, insular and self distructive agenda and direction.

I am ashamed to be part of the UK. It is completely broken and will never recover.

??

[He's here!]

Is that it? A botched procurement process and a mistake by the procurator fiscal? No wonder they keep winning.[emoji23]


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Bit bemused that you would see them as laughing matters bearing in mind it's you and I who are footing the bills.

[He's here!]

You should actually read it.

I did and that was my summary of it.

[Ozyhibby]

Bit bemused that you would see them as laughing matters bearing in mind it's you and I who are footing the bills.

[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/xanderescribe/status/1557322196363747328?s=21&t=QQOLPq_gRqu_gKMDV0IqGg
Thread on NS appearance at festival today.


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[He's here!]

Mibbe time to start hanging out with some new pals? :dunno:

I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

[lapsedhibee]

I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

SNP stoking up hatred. Seriously.

[Mantis Toboggan]

I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

Do you see much compromise coming from Westminster at the moment ?

[Just Alf]

I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.Your piece on holidays reflects what me and many others feels as well, it in no way conflicts with my desire for a Scottish Government to be making choices rather than Westminster though.

On the 2nd part, some sort of federal system was many folks preferred option, it was talked about but never progressed by the UK government so wasn't an option in a previous referendum. With regards to compromise, Westminster have made it clear in both word (ignore elected Scottish minister's) and action (introducing legislation that negatively impacts devolved powers) that they are not interested in entertaining any and unfortunately compromise needs both sides to participate.

[Ozyhibby]

I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

There are 50 American states with more power than Scotland.

I’m sure an independent Scotland won’t ban holiday’s in Yorkshire.


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[Kato]

I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

If your emotional enthusiam for the Union could be monetised the cost of living crisis would be over. But it can't. Nothing to stop you going to the next games if Scotland were independent.

You also seem tone deaf to the actual Party who is stoking hatred and who have the media clout to make that hatred palpable. After their "victory" against the EU their next target is the civil service, the judiciary and anyone who wants a social contract.

Sitting watching people jump and run is all well and good but ignoring the countries ruling Party which actually does spread hatred as a core of their policies, while pointing the finger at another makes your posts look wooly and slanted beyond the pale.

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[degenerated]

I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.Put down the spade and step away from the hole.

[JeMeSouviens]

There are 50 American states with more power than Scotland.

I’m sure an independent Scotland won’t ban holiday’s in Yorkshire.


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The wording is clever : "if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's".

That might be true, although the Basque Autonomous Community has more I think. But it cunningly gets round the fact that there are loads of federal countries where the federal states have more power. Unionists are banking on the fact that most people don't know the difference between a top-down unitary state with devolved regions where the centre has complete control and a bottom-up federation where the states come together via a constitution to empower a central government to act on their behalf in some areas.

Since "power devolved is power retained" and can be withdrawn by a simple majority in the Westminster parliament at any time, arguably *every* federal state in the world has more power than Scotland.

[Moulin Yarns]

There are 50 American states with more power than Scotland.

I’m sure an independent Scotland won’t ban holiday’s in Yorkshire.


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Aye, but an independent Yorkshire would ban Scots 😉

[weecounty hibby]

I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.
Everything you accuse the Scottish government if is actually diametrically opposite where they actually are. Insular being probably the biggest example. Who chose to cut themselves off from the worlds most successful trading block? Who chose to limit freedom of movement both in and out of the uk?
Why would it be the SNPs fault if unionists can’t behave and follow normal democratic principles?
Federal and confederal? Now you’re just making stuff up. Federalism will never take place in the uk. Westminster simply won’t allow it as it takes control away from them. The uk is a busted flush. Whether you want independence or not it is a complete basket case. The uk government trumpets how fantastic the trade deals they have with Australia and New Zealand but actually the real beneficiaries are Aus and NZ.
Tories and their donors and pals all getting richer while people are choosing between eating and heating. There is a crisis in other countries as well but they are doing something to help. France for example have nationalised energy and capped price rises to 4%. Would never ever happen in the uk. It’s not even Labour Party policy now to nationalise industry. In fact Ofgem who should be helping have basically become an enabler by continuing to raise the price cap
Scotland can be different given the chance but sadly unionists don’t want to allow that as they see only the union and nothing else

[ronaldo7]

I did make clear I saw those as the worst traits, not a catch-all description of Scots.

I've outlined more than once that my anti-independence stance does not have politics at its heart. To put that into some sort of context, this summer we've had a family holiday in Yorkshire (possibly my favourite part of the UK), spent a few days in London, attended the Commonwealth Games in Birmingham and the Open golf at St Andrews. Personally I love London. It's an endlessly exciting city, where many a Scot has made their mark, and I enjoy the fact it's becoming ever quicker to get there from Scotland. The Commonwealth Games were a joy to attend, sport for sport's sake with none of the tribalism which accompanies (men's) football. What was especially noticeable was the loud support from fans of all the home nations for UK competitors. Had I not been fortunate enough to come by complimentary tickets I'd have given the vastly overpriced Open a miss, but it was nevertheless a great spectacle, with the world's sporting eyes on golf's most prestigious venue. A brilliant month, taking in just a fraction of what the UK has to offer from a geographical, cultural and sporting aspect. There's a pride to be had there. Why would I not want to feel part of that?

From a political point of view, I'd be surprised if there's a devolved government in the world with more powers than Scotland's, which is why I find the SNP's insular approach, where nothing less than independence is acceptable, so utterly negative and wearisome. Its complete rejection of of both English and Scottish unionists can, at an extreme, stoke up the rhetoric of hatred and has, for a number of years now, split Scotland in two. There are surely better, more widely acceptable ways forward than breaking up the UK (a greater focus on federalism - perhaps even a confederal system - would be my favoured option), but they would require a level of compromise that it's impossible to imagine the one-track SNP acceding to.

You do try, but branding the SNP "insular" is way out of bounds, even for you at St Andrews.

The only party that's got a way back into the European family of nations, whilst the rest of them want to "make Brexit work".

Nothing you've written in your first paragraph can't be done after independence. You're looking for excuses to fly a flag.

[grunt]

I have not voted previously for independence and felt the timing of a new vote was wrong (post COVID) but I would now rather take my chances on our and future generations as an independent country with huge natural resources, innovation etc than continue with being part of Englands fascist corrupt, insular and self distructive agenda and direction.

I am ashamed to be part of the UK. It is completely broken and will never recover.


??

Liz Truss: "I will legislate to make sure we can’t be disrupted by militant trade unions”.

I think Col2 is spot on. This is a criminal, corrupt, fascist Tory Government.

[He's here!]

You do try, but branding the SNP "insular" is way out of bounds, even for you at St Andrews.

The only party that's got a way back into the European family of nations, whilst the rest of them want to "make Brexit work".

Nothing you've written in your first paragraph can't be done after independence. You're looking for excuses to fly a flag.

I'm not looking for any excuses. The point is that I am, always have felt and always will feel British and Scottish. A minority feeling on here but far from out of the ordinary among Scots. Maybe the fact I've spent so much of my life in all corners of the nation gives me a broader perspective, but losing that part of who I am would be a big deal for me, irrespective of who's in power at Westminster. Not hard to see why I'm opposed to a party whose raison d'etre is breaking up the UK.

[grunt]

Not hard to see why I'm opposed to a party whose raison d'etre is breaking up the UK.You're talking about the Tories here, right?

[degenerated]

I'm not looking for any excuses. The point is that I am, always have felt and always will feel British and Scottish. A minority feeling on here but far from out of the ordinary among Scots. Maybe the fact I've spent so much of my life in all corners of the nation gives me a broader perspective, but losing that part of who I am would be a big deal for me, irrespective of who's in power at Westminster. Not hard to see why I'm opposed to a party whose raison d'etre is breaking up the UK.What will stop you being British, nobody is proposing removing Scotland from the British isles.

[lapsedhibee]

You're talking about the Tories here, right?

That's the party that introduced a border between Britain and Northern Ireland, so he must be. :agree:

[Kato]

I'm not looking for any excuses. The point is that I am, always have felt and always will feel British and Scottish. A minority feeling on here but far from out of the ordinary among Scots. Maybe the fact I've spent so much of my life in all corners of the nation gives me a broader perspective, but losing that part of who I am would be a big deal for me, irrespective of who's in power at Westminster. Not hard to see why I'm opposed to a party whose raison d'etre is breaking up the UK.Seems like you prefer a party who are breaking the people's backs for the sake of a bits of paper and a flag. England and Wales will still exist if Scotland cecedes, mate. I'm sure we will all get the same welcome we do now when we visit.

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[ronaldo7]

I'm not looking for any excuses. The point is that I am, always have felt and always will feel British and Scottish. A minority feeling on here but far from out of the ordinary among Scots. Maybe the fact I've spent so much of my life in all corners of the nation gives me a broader perspective, but losing that part of who I am would be a big deal for me, irrespective of who's in power at Westminster. Not hard to see why I'm opposed to a party whose raison d'etre is breaking up the UK.

Who's taking that feeling of being British and Scottish from you?

[Skol]

I am probably different again in that I am 100% Scottish and it bugs me when I have to select British. When forms were filled in by hand I always wrote Scottish.

Only during olympics and particularly 2012 do I have a feeling of being British.

[Stairway 2 7]

Nationalism is a load of pish whether that is Scottish or British. I feel more kinship to a good person from Bangkok, Berlin or Birmingham than I do a sectarian ******** from Bellshill. Flag ****gers are the worst

[He's here!]

Seems like you prefer a party who are breaking the people's backs for the sake of a bits of paper and a flag. England and Wales will still exist if Scotland cecedes, mate. I'm sure we will all get the same welcome we do now when we visit.

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Why all these references to flags? My one and only clear memory of waving a flag was when I took a home-made Hibs one (fashioned from old Subbuteo pitch!) to the 1985 League Cip final. As far as I'm aware the only significant body of Scots who are passionate about waving the Union Jack are Rangers fans and their brand of unionism is far removed from mine. In fact until 'unionist' became a catch-all term of disdain used by independence supporters I'd never have recognised it as applying to me.

I do find it distasteful that the Saltire has been appropriated as a symbol of independence, while the way Labour seem to have adopted the Union Jack as their party flag is a tad bizarre.

[Moulin Yarns]

Why all these references to flags? My one and only clear memory of waving a flag was when I took a home-made Hibs one (fashioned from old Subbuteo pitch!) to the 1985 League Cip final. As far as I'm aware the only significant body of Scots who are passionate about waving the Union Jack are Rangers fans and their brand of unionism is far removed from mine. In fact until 'unionist' became a catch-all term of disdain used by independence supporters I'd never have recognised it as applying to me.

I do find it distasteful that the Saltire has been appropriated as a symbol of independence, while the way Labour seem to have adopted the Union Jack as their party flag is a tad bizarre.

I think Labour like the red bit. 😉

[Kato]

Why all these references to flags? My one and only clear memory of waving a flag was when I took a home-made Hibs one (fashioned from old Subbuteo pitch!) to the 1985 League Cip final. As far as I'm aware the only significant body of Scots who are passionate about waving the Union Jack are Rangers fans and their brand of unionism is far removed from mine. In fact until 'unionist' became a catch-all term of disdain used by independence supporters I'd never have recognised it as applying to me.

I do find it distasteful that the Saltire has been appropriated as a symbol of independence, while the way Labour seem to have adopted the Union Jack as their party flag is a tad bizarre.What I mean is that the piece of paper which binds the UK together and its flag are emotional symbols which match your purely emotional attachment to the Union. Symbolic not actual.

Those symbols seem to mean more to you than the actual state of the UK, how it is being led, the direction in which it is being led and the downward slope of living conditions being imposed on its population.



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