Scottish Independence

[The Tubs]

That doesn't show me how Scotland would perform after Independence. Sure it shows the UK performing badly, but if you believe the impact of Independence is going to make us worse off then actually the UK performing badly makes Independence seem like an even worse prospect. If you follow my logic.

It shows that joining the EU helped reduce the UK's relative decline with regard to comparable EU nations. The UK is no longer part of the EU.

The lovechild of JM Keynes and Milton Friedman couldn't show you how Scotland will perform after independence. They would, however, probably tell you that the UK's going to get poorer.

[grunt]

... I asked a few days ago to see one piece of credible analysis that's shows we will be better off after Independence, not a single person has produced anything. That's quite something. Like Brexit why would I want something that makes me and and family worse off? There is a smattering of hypocrisy in saying all the Brexiteers were stupid voting to make themselves worse off, but it seems acceptable to vote for Independence to make ourselves worse off.
My crystal ball is away at the cleaners, so you'll need to wait for me to provide accurate forecasts!

Seriously though, I think I was like you in 2014. All I could see was the economic risk, and the "better together" message of being part of a larger union was persuasive.

The step change came with the Brexit vote, and the sudden lurch towards bigotry, xenophobia and inward looking Little England policies and perspectives that followed. Suddenly, for me, the economic argument took second place, to be replaced by the consideration that England was becoming a place that did not reflect my personal values. Their approach to immigration, and asylum seekers in particular, made me sick to my stomach.

I simply do not want to live in a country where such xenophobic opinions are in the majority.


I also look at the current SNP government and think in no way I want them in charge of setting up a new country, some competency in government would definitely help. This makes me laugh, sadly. By any measure, how can you possibly look at the relative performance of the UK and the Scottish Governments and conclude that the UK is demonstrating greater competency? I can't understand this view. In every way, in every area, the Scottish Government is doing things better - and more compassionately - than the UK Government. Have you seen what the runners and riders for the next PM are saying? And you prefer them over Sturgeon??

[WeeRussell]

My crystal ball is away at the cleaners, so you'll need to wait for me to provide accurate forecasts!

Seriously though, I think I was like you in 2014. All I could see was the economic risk, and the "better together" message of being part of a larger union was persuasive.

The step change came with the Brexit vote, and the sudden lurch towards bigotry, xenophobia and inward looking Little England policies and perspectives that followed. Suddenly, for me, the economic argument took second place, to be replaced by the consideration that England was becoming a place that did not reflect my personal values. Their approach to immigration, and asylum seekers in particular, made me sick to my stomach.

I simply do not want to live in a country where such xenophobic opinions are in the majority.

This makes me laugh, sadly. By any measure, how can you possibly look at the relative performance of the UK and the Scottish Governments and conclude that the UK is demonstrating greater competency? I can't understand this view. In every way, in every area, the Scottish Government is doing things better - and more compassionately - than the UK Government. Have you seen what the runners and riders for the next PM are saying? And you prefer them over Sturgeon??

Very good post. A lot of the reasoning and observations ring true with me, albeit I’ve always been a YES voter.

[James310]

My crystal ball is away at the cleaners, so you'll need to wait for me to provide accurate forecasts!

Seriously though, I think I was like you in 2014. All I could see was the economic risk, and the "better together" message of being part of a larger union was persuasive.

The step change came with the Brexit vote, and the sudden lurch towards bigotry, xenophobia and inward looking Little England policies and perspectives that followed. Suddenly, for me, the economic argument took second place, to be replaced by the consideration that England was becoming a place that did not reflect my personal values. Their approach to immigration, and asylum seekers in particular, made me sick to my stomach.

I simply do not want to live in a country where such xenophobic opinions are in the majority.

This makes me laugh, sadly. By any measure, how can you possibly look at the relative performance of the UK and the Scottish Governments and conclude that the UK is demonstrating greater competency? I can't understand this view. In every way, in every area, the Scottish Government is doing things better - and more compassionately - than the UK Government. Have you seen what the runners and riders for the next PM are saying? And you prefer them over Sturgeon??

So let's pretend Labour win the next election as predicted, is England ok again?

Most of the services that impact me and I rely on are devolved and managed by the Scottish Government. Or do the Scottish Government take no responsibility at all?

[Ozyhibby]

So let's pretend Labour win the next election as predicted, is England ok again?

Most of the services that impact me and I rely on are devolved and managed by the Scottish Government. Or do the Scottish Government take no responsibility at all?

Labour win? Without Tony Blair? [emoji23][emoji23]


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[WeeRussell]

So let's pretend Labour win the next election as predicted, is England ok again?

Most of the services that impact me and I rely on are devolved and managed by the Scottish Government. Or do the Scottish Government take no responsibility at all?

The Scottish government are responsible for a great deal. And they are not perfect.

But the question was about their relative competency with Westminster as you were concerned about the prospect of the SNP being in charge.

[James310]

Labour win? Without Tony Blair? [emoji23][emoji23]


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Not sure what point you are making here.

[James310]

The Scottish government are responsible for a great deal. And they are not perfect.

But the question was about their relative competency with Westminster as you were concerned about the prospect of the SNP being in charge.

Have I not said I think the current lot in Westminster are useless, and the same can be said for the ones in Holyrood.

It would be a fair point if I was harping on about how great the government in Westminster was, but I am not. Both can be useless.

The main day to day stuff that impacts me is devolved.

[Moulin Yarns]

My family come first in all circumstances. My posts generally reflect the economics of Independence as I don't think it works, I asked a few days ago to see one piece of credible analysis that's shows we will be better off after Independence, not a single person has produced anything. That's quite something. Like Brexit why would I want something that makes me and and family worse off? There is a smattering of hypocrisy in saying all the Brexiteers were stupid voting to make themselves worse off, but it seems acceptable to vote for Independence to make ourselves worse off.

You will rarely see me commenting on how British I feel or what it means to be British etc as I am not really bothered by that stuff.

Graphs of Norway and Sweden might do it for some but I want more details, none of that is forthcoming and 8 years after IndyRef1 and the SNP basically in constant campaign mode it's quite telling they still have no answers to the big questions.

I also look at the current SNP government and think in no way I want them in charge of setting up a new country, some competency in government would definitely help. Some might say after Indy we can vote for whatever government we want, but being realistic the SNP will be the party shaping the new country, and issues such as currency, deficits, borders etc. won't go away with new people in charge.

Go back a few days to read the common Weal link I posted!!!!

[James310]

Go back a few days to read the common Weal link I posted!!!!

Lol, in now way is what the SNP proposing anything like what Common Weal is suggesting. The Growth Commission paper was written by ex RBS banker and Fred Goodwin aide Andrew Wilson. It's a paper the Tory's would be proud of with its reliance on big banks and the London financial sector. With the added bonus of austerity.

Even the author of the article agrees with me.

https://sourcenews.scot/robin-mcalpine-the-green-new-deal-and-the-growth-commission-are-from-different-planets-literally/

"At the SNP’s Spring Conference the only planet on the agenda is the planet of comfortable bankers. The planet where we work together to transform ourselves will become alien."

If the SNP have a different plan please share.

[grunt]

Have I not said I think the current lot in Westminster are useless, and the same can be said for the ones in Holyrood.

Please provide examples of policies where the Scottish Govt are as useless as the UK Govt.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lol, in now way is what the SNP proposing anything like what Common Weal is suggesting. The Growth Commission paper was written by ex RBS banker and Fred Goodwin aide Andrew Wilson. It's a paper the Tory's would be proud of with its reliance on big banks and the London financial sector. With the added bonus of austerity.

Even the author of the article agrees with me.

https://sourcenews.scot/robin-mcalpine-the-green-new-deal-and-the-growth-commission-are-from-different-planets-literally/

"At the SNP’s Spring Conference the only planet on the agenda is the planet of comfortable bankers. The planet where we work together to transform ourselves will become alien."

If the SNP have a different plan please share.

I'm not an snp supporter. I did say that I would rather have common Weal run the campaign

[James310]

Please provide examples of policies where the Scottish Govt are as useless as the UK Govt.

Education, standards falling across the board. If I remember correctly the English results under PISA were rising, while before the Scottish Government pulled us out they were declining.

Remember Nicola Sturgeon wanted to be judged on Education, what's your judgement? Fail or pass?

[Ozyhibby]

Education, standards falling across the board. If I remember correctly the English results under PISA were rising, while before the Scottish Government pulled us out they were declining.

Remember Nicola Sturgeon wanted to be judged on Education, what's your judgement? Fail or pass?

Attainment gap falling, results improving. Pass.


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[James310]

Attainment gap falling, results improving. Pass.


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Desperate stuff, if the rich kids do worse that's not exactly a rousing success.

It's nowhere near what was promised and has been dropped.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-56489714

You seriously think Education under the SNP has been a success story? So you would give Nicola Sturgeon a pass? Probably the only one to do so.

[ronaldo7]

My family come first in all circumstances. My posts generally reflect the economics of Independence as I don't think it works, I asked a few days ago to see one piece of credible analysis that's shows we will be better off after Independence, not a single person has produced anything. That's quite something. Like Brexit why would I want something that makes me and and family worse off? There is a smattering of hypocrisy in saying all the Brexiteers were stupid voting to make themselves worse off, but it seems acceptable to vote for Independence to make ourselves worse off.

You will rarely see me commenting on how British I feel or what it means to be British etc as I am not really bothered by that stuff.

Graphs of Norway and Sweden might do it for some but I want more details, none of that is forthcoming and 8 years after IndyRef1 and the SNP basically in constant campaign mode it's quite telling they still have no answers to the big questions.

I also look at the current SNP government and think in no way I want them in charge of setting up a new country, some competency in government would definitely help. Some might say after Indy we can vote for whatever government we want, but being realistic the SNP will be the party shaping the new country, and issues such as currency, deficits, borders etc. won't go away with new people in charge.


4 minutes of your life.

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/02/17/can-scotland-afford-to-be-independent/

[He's here!]

Attainment gap falling, results improving. Pass.


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That's not the case at all. The attainment gap between pupils from the most deprived and least deprived areas in Scotland is at its highest level on record.

Sturgeon pledged in 2016 that closing the gap over the next decade was her 'defining mission' but that pledge was dropped earlier this year (though largely slipped under the radar amid the ongoing rancour at Westminster).

Sure, the pandemic didn't do children's education any favours, but I think it's fair to have expected better than this more than six years on from such a key pledge.

[ronaldo7]

That's not the case at all. The attainment gap between pupils from the most deprived and least deprived areas in Scotland is at its highest level on record.

Sturgeon pledged in 2016 that closing the gap over the next decade was her 'defining mission' but that pledge was dropped earlier this year (though largely slipped under the radar amid the ongoing rancour at Westminster).

Sure, the pandemic didn't do children's education any favours, but I think it's fair to have expected better than this more than six years on from such a key pledge.

Some reading for you. :aok:

https://www.gov.scot/news/closing-the-attainment-gap-3/

Good progress is being made towards closing the poverty-related attainment gap, a new report has found.

The study examines improvements made through the Scottish Attainment Challenge, and wider education policies, towards closing the attainment gap during this Parliamentary term.

The report highlights a number of key strengths in the education system, including a systemic change in culture and ethos, improved learning and teaching, strengthened collaboration, work with families and communities and a focus on health and wellbeing.

The findings show:

the gap between the proportion of primary pupils (P1, P4 and P7 combined) from the most and least deprived areas achieving the expected level in literacy and numeracy has narrowed since 2016-17
the gap between the proportion of S3 pupils from the most and least deprived areas who achieved their expected level in numeracy narrowed between 2016-17 and 2018-19
the participation gap between those who live in the most deprived and least deprived areas has narrowed year-on-year between 2016-17 and 2019-2020
96% of headteachers felt that they had a good awareness of the range of approaches that can help close the poverty-related attainment gap
90% of headteachers reported they had seen an improvement in closing the gap in their schools in the past five years
88% of headteachers expect to see improvements in closing the gap over the next five years

[James310]

4 minutes of your life.

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2021/02/17/can-scotland-afford-to-be-independent/

Richard Murphy? 🤣

His analysis is ripped apart time after time.

https://chokkablog.blogspot.com/2021/08/richard-murphy-on-gers-perpetually.html


Interesting though he is the same guy though that says the SNP policy of sterlingisation would be an economic disaster, is that something you agree with him on as well?

[James310]

Some reading for you. :aok:

https://www.gov.scot/news/closing-the-attainment-gap-3/

Good progress is being made towards closing the poverty-related attainment gap, a new report has found.

The study examines improvements made through the Scottish Attainment Challenge, and wider education policies, towards closing the attainment gap during this Parliamentary term.

The report highlights a number of key strengths in the education system, including a systemic change in culture and ethos, improved learning and teaching, strengthened collaboration, work with families and communities and a focus on health and wellbeing.

The findings show:

the gap between the proportion of primary pupils (P1, P4 and P7 combined) from the most and least deprived areas achieving the expected level in literacy and numeracy has narrowed since 2016-17
the gap between the proportion of S3 pupils from the most and least deprived areas who achieved their expected level in numeracy narrowed between 2016-17 and 2018-19
the participation gap between those who live in the most deprived and least deprived areas has narrowed year-on-year between 2016-17 and 2019-2020
96% of headteachers felt that they had a good awareness of the range of approaches that can help close the poverty-related attainment gap
90% of headteachers reported they had seen an improvement in closing the gap in their schools in the past five years
88% of headteachers expect to see improvements in closing the gap over the next five years

Scottish Government praise the work of erm...the Scottish Government. What a shock!

https://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/news/attainment-gap-remains-wide-and-better-education-data-needed

[ronaldo7]

Richard Murphy? 🤣

His analysis is ripped apart time after time.

https://chokkablog.blogspot.com/2021/08/richard-murphy-on-gers-perpetually.html


Interesting though he is the same guy though that says the SNP policy of sterlingisation would be an economic disaster, is that something you agree with him on as well?

Ah, you don't like the guy because he's telling a different story to other financial figures. Doesn't suit your narrative that we can't go it alone as it'll be too difficult.

Gotcha. :aok:

[grunt]

Richard Murphy? 🤣 His analysis is ripped apart time after time.Don't like Richard Murphy?


Scottish Government praise the work of erm...the Scottish Government. What a shock!Don't like the official report from the Scottish Govt?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-56489714But you do agree with BBC Scotland.

You seem to choose your sources in the same way as many others. Sadly there's a growing suspicion that you're just here for the trolling.

Time to put you back on ignore.

[ronaldo7]

Scottish Government praise the work of erm...the Scottish Government. What a shock!

https://www.audit-scotland.gov.uk/news/attainment-gap-remains-wide-and-better-education-data-needed

From the link you've posted.

A joint report by the Auditor General for Scotland and the Accounts Commission found that exam performance and other attainment measures at the national level have improved. However, progress since 2013-14 has been inconsistent. And there are large variations in local authority performance, with some councils' performance getting worse on some measures

It looks to me like it's improved.

We know about the inconsistencies over the country (Scotland), these are due to the poverty levels in some local authority areas.

[James310]

Ah, you don't like the guy because he's telling a different story to other financial figures. Doesn't suit your narrative that we can't go it alone as it'll be too difficult.

Gotcha. :aok:

I don't think he is credible, as the link shows he is all over the place.

But do you agree with him on his assessment that sterlingisation would be an economic disaster for Scotland?

[James310]

Don't like Richard Murphy?

Don't like the official report from the Scottish Govt?

But you do agree with BBC Scotland.

You seem to choose your sources in the same way as many others. Sadly there's a growing suspicion that you're just here for the trolling.

Time to put you back on ignore.

Great, you won't reply to any of my posts anymore then. We both win.

You sure you had me on ignore, you replied to nearly everything I posted. 🤣

Now obviously you won't reply to this, as you have me on ignore.

[James310]

This is rather sad. It seems you really don't want to engage, so once again, I'll leave you to it.

Come back when you have something credible, not from a one man band like Richard Murphy or Business for Scotland.

You linked to the LSE on the Brexit thread, something like that would be worth reading.

[ronaldo7]

Come back when you have something credible, not from a one man band like Richard Murphy or Business for Scotland.

You linked to the LSE on the Brexit thread, something like that would be worth reading.

Credible? :faf:

[James310]

Credible? :faf:

So if you think Richard Murphy is credible, and I guess you do, will you answer if you agree with his analysis that sterlingisation would be an economic disaster for Scotland? Yes or No?

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/07/01/sterlingisation-is-how-to-destroy-hope-for-an-independent-scotland/

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/05/30/sterlingisation-would-be-a-disaster-for-scotland/


Look same link, same person.

[Ozyhibby]

So if you think Richard Murphy is credible, and I guess you do, will you answer if you agree with his analysis that sterlingisation would be an economic disaster for Scotland? Yes or No?

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/07/01/sterlingisation-is-how-to-destroy-hope-for-an-independent-scotland/

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/05/30/sterlingisation-would-be-a-disaster-for-scotland/


Look same link, same person.

Do you think the Tories have a credible plan for the UK?


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[Kato]

Brexit doesn't matter. Don't discuss that.

Wilful austerity on the poor, mmm doesn't matter.

Democracy, can't be discussed as we've had our ration.

Toxic, exceptionalist Nationalism, let's not discuss that.

Rotten arguments from the Unionists on here recently.



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[The Tubs]

Richard Murphy? 🤣

His analysis is ripped apart time after time.

https://chokkablog.blogspot.com/2021/08/richard-murphy-on-gers-perpetually.html


Interesting though he is the same guy though that says the SNP policy of sterlingisation would be an economic disaster, is that something you agree with him on as well?

Having read this blog, the criticism seems valid and Richard Murphy seems fairly lazy in his analysis. I look forward to having some time to understand this accounting myself one day.

Wealth creation is something that Scotland does have to be concerned about. It does also have to bear in mind the cost of any wealth creation and who actually benefits from it.

[The Tubs]

Having read this blog, the criticism seems valid and Richard Murphy seems fairly lazy in his analysis. I look forward to having some time to understand this accounting myself one day.

Wealth creation is something that Scotland does have to be concerned about. It does also have to bear in mind the cost of any wealth creation and who actually benefits from it.


Murphy may have been correct if he had been referring to earlier editions o GERS:

The Cuthberts’ analysis found a range of errors, amounting to billions of pounds at the UK level and hundreds of millions of pounds at the Scottish level. Errors were in both directions, but in the main the findings pointed to GERS over-allocating significant amounts of public expenditure for Scotland each year. For example, they found numerous instances where expenditure on functions like prisons, court services and nature conservation had been assigned as ‘non-identifiable’ in England, but expenditure on the same services in Scotland was ‘identifiable’. The result being that Scotland was allocated a per capita share of English spending in the GERS accounts as well as 100% of its own spending in these areas. In total, over £4 billion of such mis-allocation was identified for the UK as a whole, equivalent to over £500 million for Scotland. Other errors included misallocation of spending by function, so comparisons between different parts of the UK on relative spending priorities were inaccurate. The impact of the work of Jim and Margaret Cuthbert still resonates today. It helped to usher in a fundamental review of the entire GERS methodology to make it more fit- for-purpose.

This seems like a reasonable introduction to the topic (p. 8):
https://strathprints.strath.ac.uk/78926/1/Roy_Spowage_SA_2021_Government_expenditure_and_rev enue_in_Scotland_GERS.pdf

[degenerated]

Don't like Richard Murphy?

Don't like the official report from the Scottish Govt?

But you do agree with BBC Scotland.

You seem to choose your sources in the same way as many others. Sadly there's a growing suspicion that you're just here for the trolling.

Time to put you back on ignore.I think its wings over Scotland they like to quote these days, all very confusing.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/penny-mordaunt-claims-she-will-break-through-snp-yellow-wall-in-scotland-if-she-replaces-boris-johnson-as-prime-minister-3764620
Hard to take her seriously after this.[emoji23]


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[Kato]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/penny-mordaunt-claims-she-will-break-through-snp-yellow-wall-in-scotland-if-she-replaces-boris-johnson-as-prime-minister-3764620
Hard to take her seriously after this.[emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkShe's not speaking to us, only about us. Just a soundbite for Tory MPs/Members.

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[lapsedhibee]

She's not speaking to us, only about us. Just a soundbite for Tory MPs/Members.


:agree: Absolutely astonishing (but not really), that she thinks ("When asked about a referendum, you'll hear me answer instead about people's real priorities, such as how we can put more of your hard earned money back in your pocket") deliberately deflecting from serious questions is something to boast about. It looks like being outside Johnson's cabinet has not prevented leadership contenders from being tainted by his MO.

[Ozyhibby]

:agree: Absolutely astonishing (but not really), that she thinks ("When asked about a referendum, you'll hear me answer instead about people's real priorities, such as how we can put more of your hard earned money back in your pocket") deliberately deflecting from serious questions is something to boast about. It looks like being outside Johnson's cabinet has not prevented leadership contenders from being tainted by his MO.

Listening to Starmer, being outside his party has not stopped him from being tainted by his MO.


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[ronaldo7]

So if you think Richard Murphy is credible, and I guess you do, will you answer if you agree with his analysis that sterlingisation would be an economic disaster for Scotland? Yes or No?

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/07/01/sterlingisation-is-how-to-destroy-hope-for-an-independent-scotland/

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/05/30/sterlingisation-would-be-a-disaster-for-scotland/


Look same link, same person.

🙈

I posted a 4 minute blog about someone who thinks we can afford to become an independent nation.

It seems you don't think we can, and would rather stay shackled to UKIP on stilts currently ravaging the UK, never mind Scotland.

Sore head this morning?

[ronaldo7]

Listening to Starmer, being outside his party has not stopped him from being tainted by his MO.


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Starmer in 2020, it's for the people of Scotland to decide.

Starmer in 2022, no referendums whatever the case.

[Kato]

:agree: Absolutely astonishing (but not really), that she thinks ("When asked about a referendum, you'll hear me answer instead about people's real priorities, such as how we can put more of your hard earned money back in your pocket") deliberately deflecting from serious questions is something to boast about. It looks like being outside Johnson's cabinet has not prevented leadership contenders from being tainted by his MO.She is baw deep in with the Brexit crew. Shes been busily creating "Free Ports" and "Charter Cities" which are tax free zones within our borders. Probably planning for when their little Magic Island Banks are under the water.

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[James310]

🙈

I posted a 4 minute blog about someone who thinks we can afford to become an independent nation.

It seems you don't think we can, and would rather stay shackled to UKIP on stilts currently ravaging the UK, never mind Scotland.

Sore head this morning?

I have never once said Scotland can't be Independent, another little box for you to put people in that disagree with you. Like how you assume all No voters are Orange Order Union Jack waving fanatics. It gives you some kind of comfort blanket rather than facing the real reasons, like I posted last night.

As I say it just makes me laugh as the longer people like you think like that and put people in these comfortable little boxes the longer Independence will take if at all.

[Keith_M]

Come back when you have something credible, not from a one man band like Richard Murphy or Business for Scotland.

You linked to the LSE on the Brexit thread, something like that would be worth reading.


I presume credibility is based on whether you agree with them or not.

It's quite a common point of view, I suppose.

[JeMeSouviens]

Unionists - "we never said you were too wee, too poor, too stupid"

Also Unionists - "you'll get run over by Putin"

Also Unionists - "it'll be an economic catastrophe"

Also Unionists - "you can't even build a ferry"

[ronaldo7]

I have never once said Scotland can't be Independent, another little box for you to put people in that disagree with you. Like how you assume all No voters are Orange Order Union Jack waving fanatics. It gives you some kind of comfort blanket rather than facing the real reasons, like I posted last night.

As I say it just makes me laugh as the longer people like you think like that and put people in these comfortable little boxes the longer Independence will take if at all.

Who's putting words into others mouths now.

I think I've posted about actual unionists being in the Orange order on the Labour thread. Those facts you don't seem to like.

I posted a 4 minute blog from someone who thinks Scotland could be a thriving independent nation, an Englishman, and you went on rant about how he's not credible. He's allowed an opinion.

Not sure the route you're taking in trying to discredit one expert over another is a good look for you, but crack on if it makes you feel good.

Ive found a decent group for you to take a look at, I'll post up the details when I'm back in the house.

Have a good day now. 👍

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcphilipsim/status/1546821047562997767?s=21&t=VBpMMMFK7tO31EczRDKCLg

The benefit of last months move by NS. The UK govt has had to join the case directly rather than leave it to a proxy.


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[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/bbcphilipsim/status/1546821047562997767?s=21&t=VBpMMMFK7tO31EczRDKCLg

The benefit of last months move by NS. The UK govt has had to join the case directly rather than leave it to a proxy.


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Sounds as though there's a chance the Supreme Court will not even get involved:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62138075

[Ozyhibby]

Sounds as though there's a chance the Supreme Court will not even get involved:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62138075

Not content with denying Scots democracy, they want to deny us access to the law.


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[Moulin Yarns]

I have never once said Scotland can't be Independent, another little box for you to put people in that disagree with you. Like how you assume all No voters are Orange Order Union Jack waving fanatics. It gives you some kind of comfort blanket rather than facing the real reasons, like I posted last night.

As I say it just makes me laugh as the longer people like you think like that and put people in these comfortable little boxes the longer Independence will take if at all.

So, now I'm getting confused.

You say Scotland can be independent, you just don't want it to be. Have I got this right?

[James310]

So, now I'm getting confused.

You say Scotland can be independent, you just don't want it to be. Have I got this right?

I know you are easily confused. Could Scotland be Independent, of course it could. Do I think it's a good idea based on what is being proposed, no.

Was it that confusing?

[James310]

Not content with denying Scots democracy, they want to deny us access to the law.


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I am not sure what denying access to the law even means? The law is the law.

If the Scottish Lord Advocate who sits in Nicola Sturgeons cabinet is refusing to sign off a bill then what can the Supreme Court rule on, there is no Bill to rule on. That's not their fault.

[Moulin Yarns]

I know you are easily confused. Could Scotland be Independent, of course it could. Do I think it's a good idea based on what is being proposed, no.

Was it that confusing?

OK, so now we have established you accept the right of Scotland being an independent nation, what is your case for continuing with the current set up of an international government in Westminster and a domestic government in Scotland? What exactly makes the two governments set up up better than a single government, based in Edinburgh?

[Bristolhibby]

Not content with denying Scots democracy, they want to deny us access to the law.


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That is outrageous.

How can we achieve independence if the route to even ask the question of the courts is shut down. This is a hostage situation.

Totally unreasonable but plays to the Tory (and Unionist) Party faithful.

J

[James310]

OK, so now we have established you accept the right of Scotland being an independent nation, what is your case for continuing with the current set up of an international government in Westminster and a domestic government in Scotland? What exactly makes the two governments set up up better than a single government, based in Edinburgh?

What are you going on about, I have never said Scotland could not be Independent.

The idea of devolution as originally proposed was a good idea, unfortunately it's been hijacked and doesn't work as I would like it to. The two governments should be working together, not against each other. As I have said a million times the prospect of a single Edinburgh based government on the proposals I have seen doesn't do it for me. I can repeat the same thing over and over for you in lots of different ways if you like.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am not sure what denying access to the law even means? The law is the law.

If the Scottish Lord Advocate who sits in Nicola Sturgeons cabinet is refusing to sign off a bill then what can the Supreme Court rule on, there is no Bill to rule on. That's not their fault.

There is a draft bill, published the same day as sturgeon announcement. That's what they will consider in the supreme courts.

[James310]

There is a draft bill, published the same day as sturgeon announcement. That's what they will consider in the supreme courts.

As you say it's a draft bill, it has to go through Parliament and will be amended. The Supreme Court could say come back when you have a final Bill, which we won't as the Lord Advocate won't sign it off.

[Moulin Yarns]

What are you going on about, I have never said Scotland could not be Independent.

The idea of devolution as originally proposed was a good idea, unfortunately it's been hijacked and doesn't work as I would like it to. The two governments should be working together, not against each other. As I have said a million times the prospect of a single Edinburgh based government on the proposals I have seen doesn't do it for me. I can repeat the same thing over and over for you in lots of different ways if you like.

Take the SNP plan out of the equation, I've said umpteen times I believe there are better options, for example those put forward by the non party think tank Common Weal. 10 years post independence the SNP won't exist in the same form as it does today, it will be up to scottish labour, Liberal Democrats, Greens, whatever the SNP has become and, heaven forbid the Scottish tories to shape Scotland's future.


So, again, defend the current situation of 2 governments which are as far apart politically which cannot agree on much rather than a single government working together, presumably as a parliament with no majority for a single party.

[Bristolhibby]

Take the SNP plan out of the equation, I've said umpteen times I believe there are better options, for example those put forward by the non party think tank Common Weal. 10 years post independence the SNP won't exist in the same form as it does today, it will be up to scottish labour, Liberal Democrats, Greens, whatever the SNP has become and, heaven forbid the Scottish tories to shape Scotland's future.

So, again, defend the current situation of 2 governments which are as far apart politically which cannot agree on much rather than a single government working together, presumably as a parliament with no majority for a single party.

The new way of working is there to be taken. It will send shockwaves through the rUK political system also.

Bring it on!

Carpe Diem.

J

[James310]

Take the SNP plan out of the equation, I've said umpteen times I believe there are better options, for example those put forward by the non party think tank Common Weal. 10 years post independence the SNP won't exist in the same form as it does today, it will be up to scottish labour, Liberal Democrats, Greens, whatever the SNP has become and, heaven forbid the Scottish tories to shape Scotland's future.


So, again, defend the current situation of 2 governments which are as far apart politically which cannot agree on much rather than a single government working together, presumably as a parliament with no majority for a single party.

I can't take the SNP out of it as they are the driving force behind Independence. The Common Weal paper has 0% chance of being implemented.

The issues go beyond whatever parties are in charge. The currency issue, the border issues etc. don't care what party is in charge, they will still be issues and problems for any party.

[Moulin Yarns]

I can't take the SNP out of it as they are the driving force behind Independence. The Common Weal paper has 0% chance of being implemented.

The issues go beyond whatever parties are in charge. The currency issue, the border issues etc. don't care what party is in charge, they will still be issues and problems for any party.

You are ignoring the Democratic process. The SNP can't be in government for ever, surely you agree with that. In which case, in the future Scotland other parties will have to work on policies for the Scottish people and have to work together because a single party with a majority is unlikely to happen again, so future governance in Scotland will not be only SNPs policies.


So, let's assume 2030, Scotland has achieved independence, against your wishes, what do you think we should do to improve things for you and your family?


The alternative is for the current impasse between Westminster and Holyrood.

[Ozyhibby]

What are you going on about, I have never said Scotland could not be Independent.

The idea of devolution as originally proposed was a good idea, unfortunately it's been hijacked and doesn't work as I would like it to. The two governments should be working together, not against each other. As I have said a million times the prospect of a single Edinburgh based government on the proposals I have seen doesn't do it for me. I can repeat the same thing over and over for you in lots of different ways if you like.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220712/2425a36714400b904e753ac943cd949e.jpg
Thank goodness it’s been hijacked.


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[James310]

You are ignoring the Democratic process. The SNP can't be in government for ever, surely you agree with that. In which case, in the future Scotland other parties will have to work on policies for the Scottish people and have to work together because a single party with a majority is unlikely to happen again, so future governance in Scotland will not be only SNPs policies.


So, let's assume 2030, Scotland has achieved independence, against your wishes, what do you think we should do to improve things for you and your family?


The alternative is for the current impasse between Westminster and Holyrood.

As I said and you ignored the issues go beyond any party though.

If in 2030 and we are Independent then it's the same things I would say are important now, are my kids being educated well, is the economy in a good state, is the NHS being well managed etc. I am sure most people would say the same.

[The Tubs]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220712/2425a36714400b904e753ac943cd949e.jpg
Thank goodness it’s been hijacked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just as long as my kids are okay. But isn't nationalism appalling?

[Moulin Yarns]

As I said and you ignored the issues go beyond any party though.

If in 2030 and we are Independent then it's the same things I would say are important now, are my kids being educated well, is the economy in a good state, is the NHS being well managed etc. I am sure most people would say the same.

So how would you think that the status quo is going to improve the things that are important to you?

[James310]

So how would you think that the status quo is going to improve the things that are important to you?

Like everyone else you hope those in charge are competent. If they aren't you vote them out and let someone else try.

[James310]

Just as long as my kids are okay. But isn't nationalism appalling?

But this also kind of makes my point, as part of the UK we have the lowest child poverty? Great isn't it. Why would we risk losing that? Devolution is not all bad, I maybe overplayed that card in my previous post. It allows Scotland to make different choices and offer things like free prescriptions, free tuition, doubling of benefits etc. All done today as part of the UK, will these all remain if we get Independence? Who knows? Maybe or maybe not, they are there today though.

[The Tubs]

But this also kind of makes my point, as part of the UK we have the lowest child poverty? Great isn't it. Why would we risk losing that? Devolution is not all bad, I maybe overplayed that card in my previous post. It allows Scotland to make different choices and offer things like free prescriptions, free tuition, doubling of benefits etc. All done today as part of the UK, will these all remain if we get Independence? Who knows? Maybe or maybe not, they are there today though.

I'd say the greatest risk to any measure of Scottish autonomy in decision making is remaining in the union.

[WeeRussell]

Like everyone else you hope those in charge are competent. If they aren't you vote them out and let someone else try.

Us in Scotland have been trying to vote these *******s out for a long time with no joy. Any other democratic options?

[James310]

Us in Scotland have been trying to vote these *******s out for a long time with no joy. Any other democratic options?

Well if we had voted Yes in 2014 you would have your way, but the SNP failed to convince people.

[The Tubs]

Well if we had voted Yes in 2014 you would have your way, but the SNP failed to convince people.

Who are you calling *******s, James?

[ronaldo7]

But this also kind of makes my point, as part of the UK we have the lowest child poverty? Great isn't it. Why would we risk losing that? Devolution is not all bad, I maybe overplayed that card in my previous post. It allows Scotland to make different choices and offer things like free prescriptions, free tuition, doubling of benefits etc. All done today as part of the UK, will these all remain if we get Independence? Who knows? Maybe or maybe not, they are there today though.

It's costing us £700 million to mitigate the policies being implemented in England. We're at the mercy of a UK Gov cutting all before them.

If only they'd butt out of our devolution settlement and let us get on with things we'd be even better.

Farmers, and fishermen are suffering because of the UK Gov, and their meddling.

Another way is possible.

[Callum_62]

It's costing us £700 million to mitigate the policies being implemented in England. We're at the mercy of a UK Gov cutting all before them.

If only they'd butt out of our devolution settlement and let us get on with things we'd be even better.

Farmers, and fishermen are suffering because of the UK Gov, and their meddling.

Another way is possible.You misunderstand

Good Results - because of UK

Bad Results - because of SNP

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[lapsedhibee]

Good Results - because of UK
Bad Results - because of SNP


So, to cut down on the typing, maybe just shorten all that to, let's say, "SNP bad"? Wonder why no-one's ever thought of presenting things that way before, all nice and streamlined.

[James310]

It's costing us £700 million to mitigate the policies being implemented in England. We're at the mercy of a UK Gov cutting all before them.

If only they'd butt out of our devolution settlement and let us get on with things we'd be even better.

Farmers, and fishermen are suffering because of the UK Gov, and their meddling.

Another way is possible.

The £700M is not a fact, it's a figure Kate Forbes came up with. But that's a political choice the SNP have made and under the settlement can make that choice. They even have the powers to increase benefits if they want, but choose not to.

I assume this £700M would remain in any Independent Scotland as they won't be cutting benefits, so where would this extra cash come from? Nobody knows.

[The Tubs]

The £700M is not a fact, it's a figure Kate Forbes came up with.

In the spirit of the blog you posted yesterday, can you please provide evidence before questioning someone's professional integrity?

[Keith_M]

What are you going on about, I have never said Scotland could not be Independent.

The idea of devolution as originally proposed was a good idea, unfortunately it's been hijacked and doesn't work as I would like it to. The two governments should be working together, not against each other. As I have said a million times the prospect of a single Edinburgh based government on the proposals I have seen doesn't do it for me. I can repeat the same thing over and over for you in lots of different ways if you like.


So, to summarize... your view is that Scotland has every right to independence but you think it's a bad idea.

Is that about right?

:dunno:

[Ozyhibby]

So, to summarize... your view is that Scotland has every right to independence but you think it's a bad idea.

Is that about right?

:dunno:

Yes, but to make sure it doesn’t ever happen, he wants to cancel democracy.


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[StevieC]

They even have the powers to increase benefits if they want, but choose not to.

They have the power to increase a lot of things, but you do understand that increasing spending in some areas means that they have to decrease spending in others because it’s a fixed budget.

[WeeRussell]

Well if we had voted Yes in 2014 you would have your way, but the SNP failed to convince people.

Okay I can accept that. But if other people and circumstances have now convinced people, is there anything wrong with the people of Scotland having their way.. democratically?

I know of people (no voters in 2014) who haven’t been persuaded at all by the SNP on anything. But the last few years and the tories have persuaded them that a YES vote is now the way forward. And the only way.

[Ozyhibby]

They have the power to increase a lot of things, but you do understand that increasing spending in some areas means that they have to decrease spending in others because it’s a fixed budget.

A fixed budget? That seems a terrible way to run a country?


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[ronaldo7]

The £700M is not a fact, it's a figure Kate Forbes came up with. But that's a political choice the SNP have made and under the settlement can make that choice. They even have the powers to increase benefits if they want, but choose not to.

I assume this £700M would remain in any Independent Scotland as they won't be cutting benefits, so where would this extra cash come from? Nobody knows.

Let's hope any of your family never has to pay for having a third bedroom if they're ever on benefits.

Hard hearted Tories get those benefits in Scotland too

[James310]

They have the power to increase a lot of things, but you do understand that increasing spending in some areas means that they have to decrease spending in others because it’s a fixed budget.

How is the budget fixed when the SNP has tax raising powers? They could put income tax up tomorrow if they wanted to.

[Hibrandenburg]

A fixed budget? That seems a terrible way to run a country?


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My 13 year old has a fixed budget.

[James310]

Yes, but to make sure it doesn’t ever happen, he wants to cancel democracy.


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I have literally posted about 20 times the way I see Scotland getting another referendum and possibly Independence. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean I never said it. 🤣

I know it's your trump card and maybe it will work, we will see.

[James310]

In the spirit of the blog you posted yesterday, can you please provide evidence before questioning someone's professional integrity?

It was a question in Parliament and Kate Forbes listed things like £63M on equality and Human Rights, I have no idea what that means and what thee money was spent on. Happy to be pointed to this information.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/nicolasturgeon/status/1546863982434291714?s=21&t=1yk1nE3uoxN0fY3riQpRDw


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220712/ea5df0eaf1a668f8a97666a64f31a673.jpg

[James310]

https://twitter.com/nicolasturgeon/status/1546863982434291714?s=21&t=1yk1nE3uoxN0fY3riQpRDw


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220712/ea5df0eaf1a668f8a97666a64f31a673.jpg

How does making us worse off, which seems to be the acceptance now after Independence, help combat child poverty? Isn't having the lowest in the UK a good thing and why are we wanting to risk that?

[He's here!]

That is outrageous.

How can we achieve independence if the route to even ask the question of the courts is shut down. This is a hostage situation.

Totally unreasonable but plays to the Tory (and Unionist) Party faithful.

J

Nobody's shutting down the route. The difficulty for the Supreme Court, however (and apologies if this has already been made clear earlier in the thread), is that without a referendum bill having been introduced at Holyrood yet there's nothing for them to legislate on. The bigger potential problem for Sturgeon is that the Lord Advocate has already stated in her referral to the Supreme Court that she doesn't have confidence that such a bill is within the Scottish Parliament's powers.

[The Tubs]

It was a question in Parliament and Kate Forbes listed things like £63M on equality and Human Rights, I have no idea what that means and what thee money was spent on. Happy to be pointed to this information.

This is not evidence that she fabricated numbers. You’re sounding very Richard Murphyish.

By the way, who are the *******s you referred to?

[James310]

This is not evidence that she fabricated numbers. You’re sounding very Richard Murphyish.

By the way, who are the *******s you referred to?

You have no idea what equality and human rights are. I’d recommend looking them up.

? I just see *******s

Lol, I know what equality and human rights are, I have no clue what £63M was spent on though. As I say happy to be educated.

[The Tubs]

? I just see *******s

Lol, I know what equality and human rights are, I have no clue what £63M was spent on though. As I say happy to be educated.

Neither do I. Hopefully it was well spent.

Anyway, rather than talking about an affirmation, I’d be grateful if you could deal with the two outstanding questions.

[lapsedhibee]

Neither do I. Hopefully it was well spent.

Anyway, rather than talking about an affirmation, I’d be grateful if you could deal with the two outstanding questions.
On the thing with the asterisks, think he was just quoting someone else.

[James310]

Neither do I. Hopefully it was well spent.

Anyway, rather than talking about an affirmation, I’d be grateful if you could deal with the two outstanding questions.

Sorry, I don't know what they are?

[Since90+2]

It was a question in Parliament and Kate Forbes listed things like £63M on equality and Human Rights, I have no idea what that means and what thee money was spent on. Happy to be pointed to this information.

You love your facts so I'm assuming you can back up the claim that Kate Forbes said that?

[James310]

You love your facts so I'm assuming you can back up the claim that Kate Forbes said that?

Sure.

https://www.kennethgibson.org/single-post/mitigating-tory-policies-costs-snp-government-594-million-annually


"In answer to a parliamentary question from Kenneth Gibson MSP, a breakdown on spending provided by Scotland’s finance secretary Kate Forbes MSP shows the SNP Government is spending £594 million per year to mitigate a number of UK Government policies. It includes:


£83 million on discretionary housing payments in order to mitigate the bedroom tax, introduced in 2013.

£102 million on improving digital connectivity infrastructure in Scotland, with telecoms - a reserved power.

£198 million on energy efficiency and industries, renewable and community energy and the low carbon economy, a sum of is allocated due to energy also being reserved to Westminster.

£63 million on equalities and human rights, £56 million on Fair Start Scotland, employability and workforce skills, whilst £39 million is spent on enterprise zones."

I picked the £63M on equalities and human rights, but could easily have asked what does £39M spent on Enterprise Zones mean and what policy was it mitigating?

[CropleyWasGod]

Sure.

https://www.kennethgibson.org/single-post/mitigating-tory-policies-costs-snp-government-594-million-annually


"In answer to a parliamentary question from Kenneth Gibson MSP, a breakdown on spending provided by Scotland’s finance secretary Kate Forbes MSP shows the SNP Government is spending £594 million per year to mitigate a number of UK Government policies. It includes:


£83 million on discretionary housing payments in order to mitigate the bedroom tax, introduced in 2013.

£102 million on improving digital connectivity infrastructure in Scotland, with telecoms - a reserved power.

£198 million on energy efficiency and industries, renewable and community energy and the low carbon economy, a sum of is allocated due to energy also being reserved to Westminster.

£63 million on equalities and human rights, £56 million on Fair Start Scotland, employability and workforce skills, whilst £39 million is spent on enterprise zones."

I picked the £63M on equalities and human rights, but could easily have asked what does £39M spent on Enterprise Zones mean and what policy was it mitigating?

This is what it is being spent on.

https://www.gov.scot/policies/supporting-business/enterprise-areas/

That bit took 2 minutes to find.

[James310]

This is what it is being spent on.

https://www.gov.scot/policies/supporting-business/enterprise-areas/

That bit took 2 minutes to find.

I don't see any references to the £39M and what policy it was supposed to be mitigating there. What UK Gov policy was it mitigating against?

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't see any references to the £39M and what policy it was supposed to be mitigating there. What UK Gov policy was it mitigating against?

I'd presume lack of decent investment in Scottish businesses.

If you want a detailed breakdown, you could ask any of your MSPs,or do a FOI request.

[James310]

I'd presume lack of decent investment in Scottish businesses.

If you want a detailed breakdown, you could ask any of your MSPs,or do a FOI request.

That's a pretty generic answer, so we don't really know.

[CropleyWasGod]

That's a pretty generic answer, so we don't really know.

But you could know if you wanted. It's not that difficult to find out.

[James310]

But you could know if you wanted. It's not that difficult to find out.

If I have to submit a FOI to get the answer it obviously is difficult to find out. 🤣

[James310]

Nobody's shutting down the route. The difficulty for the Supreme Court, however (and apologies if this has already been made clear earlier in the thread), is that without a referendum bill having been introduced at Holyrood yet there's nothing for them to legislate on. The bigger potential problem for Sturgeon is that the Lord Advocate has already stated in her referral to the Supreme Court that she doesn't have confidence that such a bill is within the Scottish Parliament's powers.

There was a case last year brought by an Indy supporter called Martin J Keatings, in the case the Scottish Government lawyers argued that the court could not make a ruling as it was hypothetical and no bill had been presented to the courts. The Scottish Government is now arguing the exact opposite. If the ruling in the first case is used as the precedent then the only people to blame will be the Scottish Government. Could be a massive own goal.

[CropleyWasGod]

If I have to submit a FOI to get the answer it obviously is difficult to find out. 🤣

You missed the bit about asking one of your MSPs. I'm not sure where you live, but you'll have a choice.

I'm trying to be helpful here.

[Ozyhibby]

How does making us worse off, which seems to be the acceptance now after Independence, help combat child poverty? Isn't having the lowest in the UK a good thing and why are we wanting to risk that?

Accepted only by you.[emoji23]


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[StevieC]

How is the budget fixed when the SNP has tax raising powers? They could put income tax up tomorrow if they wanted to.

😂

They did put the tax up .. in order to lower the tax for those with less money.
And what was the outcome .. SNP good helping those that need it most?
No, it was SNP bad because Scotland has highest tax rate in the UK!

If you want an excuse to knock the Scottish government you’ll find it, doesn’t mean you’re right though.

[James310]

Accepted only by you.[emoji23]


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Really? Quite a few pro Indy posters have accepted that after Independence we will be worse off in the short term, how long that lasts we don't know. If you have any evidence we will be immediately better off please share.

So I can ask again, how does making ourselves worse off help children in poverty?

[James310]

😂

They did put the tax up .. in order to lower the tax for those with less money.
And what was the outcome .. SNP good helping those that need it most?
No, it was SNP bad because Scotland has highest tax rate in the UK!

If you want an excuse to knock the Scottish government you’ll find it, doesn’t mean you’re right though.

Right, so no fixed budget then.

[The Modfather]

Really? Quite a few pro Indy posters have accepted that after Independence we will be worse off in the short term, how long that lasts we don't know. If you have any evidence we will be immediately better off please share.

So I can ask again, how does making ourselves worse off help children in poverty?

We’re getting worse off with each passing day in the current set up. We are in the midst of a cost of living crisis now. Independence will require some tough decisions, but there’s a clear path towards re-joining the EU.

Can you give any insight into what the clear path is from the cost of living crisis and economic projections as a result of Brexit without independence? Or will you just ignore this post but continue to respond to all others that allow you to criticise the SNP or independence.

[Ozyhibby]

We’re getting worse off with each passing day in the current set up. We are in the midst of a cost of living crisis now. Independence will require some tough decisions, but there’s a clear path towards re-joining the EU.

Can you give any insight into what the clear path is from the cost of living crisis and economic projections as a result of Brexit without independence? Or will you just ignore this post but continue to respond to all others that allow you to criticise the SNP or independence.

Right now we’re on a sinking ship. We have a life raft available but James doesn’t want to get on because we might have to paddle a bit first.


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[James310]

Right now we’re on a sinking ship. We have a life raft available but James doesn’t want to get on because we might have to paddle a bit first.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's a fair analogy if you believe that, but you are jumping off your sinking ship into ship with a bigger hole in the hope you might be able to fix it after X number of years.

It still doesn't answer the question if we are going to be immediately worse off how does that help child poverty in Scotland, if you don't accept we are going to be worse off after Independence then you must believe the opposite and we will be better off, but at the moment that's a baseless claim with no evidence to back it up.

[Mon Dieu4]

That's a fair analogy if you believe that, but you are jumping off your sinking ship into ship with a bigger hole in the hope you might be able to fix it after X number of years.

It still doesn't answer the question if we are going to be immediately worse off how does that help child poverty in Scotland, if you don't accept we are going to be worse off after Independence then you must believe the opposite and we will be better off, but at the moment that's a baseless claim with no evidence to back it up.

If we are short then could always borrow money, you know, like the UK government consistently does

[Ozyhibby]

That's a fair analogy if you believe that, but you are jumping off your sinking ship into ship with a bigger hole in the hope you might be able to fix it after X number of years.

It still doesn't answer the question if we are going to be immediately worse off how does that help child poverty in Scotland, if you don't accept we are going to be worse off after Independence then you must believe the opposite and we will be better off, but at the moment that's a baseless claim with no evidence to back it up.

I’m thinking that no matter what hardship we might face, we choose to protect the children? This isn’t the UK govt we are talking about.


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[James310]

If we are short then could always borrow money, you know, like the UK government consistently does

It's not that straight forward.

Significantly harder with no central bank. The BoE bought hundreds of billions of UKG debt, that wouldn't be possible without a central bank. If sterlingisation is the plan then that's a non starter.

For other types of borrowing then the rate offered would likely have to be quite high to attract financial institutions to take up the offer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50504151.amp


How does the government borrow money?

The government borrows money by selling bonds.

A bond is a promise to make payments to whoever holds it on certain dates. There is a large payment on the final date - in effect, the repayment.

Interest is also paid to whoever owns the bond in the meantime. So it's basically an interest-paying "IOU".

The buyers of these bonds, or "gilts", are mainly financial institutions, like pension funds, investment funds, banks and insurance companies.

Private savers also buy some.

Some also end up being bought by the Bank of England as part of its current attempts to boost spending and investment in the economy.

Under this policy - known as "quantitative easing" - the Bank has so far bought £875bn of government bonds and £20bn of UK corporate bonds.

Government bonds appeal to investors as they are seen as essentially safe - with little risk that the money won't be paid.

You won't lose your money and you know precisely when and how much the payments will be.

[James310]

I’m thinking that no matter what hardship we might face, we choose to protect the children? This isn’t the UK govt we are talking about.


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That's a fair point, but it just means something else won't be funded appropriately like the NHS or local service etc.

[Moulin Yarns]

That's a fair point, but it just means something else won't be funded appropriately like the NHS or local service etc.

Because we have a fixed budget 🤔

Actually, I agree, just like Zahawi with his plan to cut 20% off every government department if elected as tory leader.

The Scottish government has little wriggle room at the moment because there are limits to how much it can raise through taxation over and above what comes from Westminster. An independent Scotland would be able to be a bit more flexible in how it raises money because there would be no strings attached.

A central bank you say? I'm sure I read a while ago that it and the other institutions necessary to be an independent country are already in the process of being set up. The Scottish government would be daft not to be preparing for the first step in being a proper nation.

[James310]

Because we have a fixed budget 🤔

Actually, I agree, just like Zahawi with his plan to cut 20% off every government department if elected as tory leader.

The Scottish government has little wriggle room at the moment because there are limits to how much it can raise through taxation over and above what comes from Westminster. An independent Scotland would be able to be a bit more flexible in how it raises money because there would be no strings attached.

A central bank you say? I'm sure I read a while ago that it and the other institutions necessary to be an independent country are already in the process of being set up. The Scottish government would be daft not to be preparing for the first step in being a proper nation.

We were talking after Independence, so there will be no fixed budget.

As far as I am aware there is nothing at all being done to set up a new Central Bank, infact it would be quite outrageous if there was considering people voted No to Independence.

But again if you have evidence that it's happening please share, otherwise its baseless nonsense. I am pretty confident you won't find any.

[CropleyWasGod]

We were talking after Independence, so there will be no fixed budget.

As far as I am aware there is nothing at all being done to set up a new Central Bank, infact it would be quite outrageous if there was considering people voted No to Independence.

But again if you have evidence that it's happening please share, otherwise its baseless nonsense. I am pretty confident you won't find any.

Again, it took a few minutes.

https://www.ft.com/content/dcce1bc8-9461-44a3-a017-999fd458610e

You're welcome.:greengrin

[James310]

Again, it took a few minutes.

https://www.ft.com/content/dcce1bc8-9461-44a3-a017-999fd458610e

You're welcome.:greengrin

Lol, SNP members voting for work to begin on a central bank is a million miles away from the Scottish Government making serious preparation for a Central Bank.

What progress has been made since this was a vote a number of years ago?

There is a significant difference between party and government, although these days it is blurry.

SNP members vote for lots of things, that doesn't mean the actual Government do anything.

[Ozyhibby]

Lol, SNP members voting for work to begin on a central bank is a million miles away from the Scottish Government making serious preparation for a Central Bank.

What progress has been made since this was a vote a number if years ago?

There is a significant difference between party and government, although these days it is blurry.

But you agree the intention is to set up a central bank?


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[CropleyWasGod]

Lol, SNP members voting for work to begin on a central bank is a million miles away from the Scottish Government making serious preparation for a Central Bank.

What progress has been made since this was a vote a number if years ago?

There is a significant difference between party and government, although these days it is blurry.

It was November 2021.

As for the progress, there has probably been little as the vote was in the session just ended. You could, though, ask your MSP (ibid).

[James310]

But you agree the intention is to set up a central bank?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It wasn't the first time around was it.

Now I don't know, Ian Blackford saying sterling will be used for years.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20157543.independent-scotland-keep-british-pound-years-ian-blackford-says/

It's really unclear.

To join the EU you need one but it's conflicting information, on the one hand Ian Blackford says keep the pound for years on the other it's we will join the EU in a few years. See how it's conflicting information.

Ultimately yes I would imagine. Within the first period of Indy looks unlikely.

[Moulin Yarns]

We were talking after Independence, so there will be no fixed budget.

As far as I am aware there is nothing at all being done to set up a new Central Bank, infact it would be quite outrageous if there was considering people voted No to Independence.

But again if you have evidence that it's happening please share, otherwise its baseless nonsense. I am pretty confident you won't find any.

https://www.reservebank.scot/

Happy to oblige, 1 minute to find 😁

[James310]

It was November 2021.

As for the progress, there has probably been little as the vote was in the session just ended. You could, though, ask your MSP (ibid).

I was thinking of this, it's maybe changed again.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48069470

[CropleyWasGod]

https://www.reservebank.scot/

Happy to oblige, 1 minute to find 😁

That's not a bank.

"Please note, the Scottish Reserve Bank is not legally a bank. Its purpose is to promote an independent Scottish currency in an independent Scotland and to provide factual information about a Scottish currency and related economic questions."

[James310]

https://www.reservebank.scot/

Happy to oblige, 1 minute to find 😁

Lol, seriously?

This is what frustrates me about the Yes side, that's one man who set up a website and called it the Reserve Bank of Scotland. The man is called Tim Rideout and he is currently suspended by the SNP for racist comments.

It's not a bank and never has been.

If this is where you take your information from then that explains a lot.

[James310]

That's not a bank.

"Please note, the Scottish Reserve Bank is not legally a bank. Its purpose is to promote an independent Scottish currency in an independent Scotland and to provide factual information about a Scottish currency and related economic questions."

Unfortunately some people actually believe it is.

[CropleyWasGod]

I was thinking of this, it's maybe changed again.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-48069470

They are 2 distinct things. The 2019 vote is about the currency. The 2021 vote is about the bank.

[grunt]

That's a fair point, but it just means something else won't be funded appropriately like the NHS or local service etc.
This is the WHOLE point about independence. It means that we can direct the funding and the support towards things that we consider require them. In Scotland we choose to support children, in England they seem to support bankers and oil companies. It's a question of choice. A choice that is being denied to those in Scotland.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.economicsobservatory.com/currency-choice-of-an-independent-scotland-what-role-for-the-central-bank

Seeing as we are discussing the financial situation for an independent Scotland

[grunt]

How does making us worse off, which seems to be the acceptance now after Independence, help combat child poverty? Isn't having the lowest in the UK a good thing and why are we wanting to risk that?
The reason we have the lowest (albeit still worrying) levels of child poverty in the UK is because we decided it was something we wanted to deal with so we put in place policies to address it. The whole issue of being able to put in place policies to deal with our agenda is why we want independence; because the Tory UK Govt is spending on things we don't see as a priority.

So being independent would not risk our approach to child poverty, it would enable it and support it.

You're going to reply saying that we'll have less money going forward. We might do, we might not. The future under independence is uncertain. But what is certain is that if we continue to be governed by the Tories (who I'll remind you we never vote for), then we certainly will be worse off, because their policies are to shrink the social services, the NHS and other support services that people need in this 21st century. I want a kinder Government, one that looks after its people, not one that leaves them to die on the streets and live in poverty. Independence will allow us to choose that, as we can't choose it right now.

[Ozyhibby]

The current chancellor wants to cut the NHS and education by 20% and James thinks we will be better off sticking with them.[emoji849]


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[Kato]

their policies are to shrink the social services, the NHS and other support services that people need in this 21st century. I want a kinder Government, one that looks after its people, not one that leaves them to die on the streets and live in poverty.

They also drone on about being anti-woke, are actively looking for trouble on the international stage and continually gaslight their supporters. Like that guy Trump and the other guy Putin. Same language, same seeking of division.

If that is the direction of the UK let's get out.

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[James310]

The reason we have the lowest (albeit still worrying) levels of child poverty in the UK is because we decided it was something we wanted to deal with so we put in place policies to address it. The whole issue of being able to put in place policies to deal with our agenda is why we want independence; because the Tory UK Govt is spending on things we don't see as a priority.

So being independent would not risk our approach to child poverty, it would enable it and support it.

You're going to reply saying that we'll have less money going forward. We might do, we might not. The future under independence is uncertain. But what is certain is that if we continue to be governed by the Tories (who I'll remind you we never vote for), then we certainly will be worse off, because their policies are to shrink the social services, the NHS and other support services that people need in this 21st century. I want a kinder Government, one that looks after its people, not one that leaves them to die on the streets and live in poverty. Independence will allow us to choose that, as we can't choose it right now.

Aren't you ignoring me? That never lasted long.

[grunt]

Aren't you ignoring me? That never lasted long.
I was. But since you post on this thread many times a day, trying to read the thread with you on ignore is like reading a book with every other sentence hidden. I'm sure it won't last long, and soon I'll need to hide you again to protect my sanity and blood pressure! :wink:

[James310]

The current chancellor wants to cut the NHS and education by 20% and James thinks we will be better off sticking with them.[emoji849]


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No I don't, repeating myself again I don't want the Tory's to win the next GE.

Why do I have to repeat the same answers over and over.

[He's here!]

There was a case last year brought by an Indy supporter called Martin J Keatings, in the case the Scottish Government lawyers argued that the court could not make a ruling as it was hypothetical and no bill had been presented to the courts. The Scottish Government is now arguing the exact opposite. If the ruling in the first case is used as the precedent then the only people to blame will be the Scottish Government. Could be a massive own goal.

Good point. I'd forgotten about him:

https://www.judiciary.scot/home/sentences-judgments/judgments/2021/04/30/martin-keatings

[Ozyhibby]

No I don't, repeating myself again I don't want the Tory's to win the next GE.

Why do I have to repeat the same answers over and over.

But if they do then it’s a price worth paying?


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[The Tubs]

No I don't, repeating myself again I don't want the Tory's to win the next GE.

Why do I have to repeat the same answers over and over.

Wanting isn't enough, James. In Scotland, as Russell mentioned before, what you vote for and what you get are different things.

[Moulin Yarns]

Wanting isn't enough, James. In Scotland, as Russell mentioned before, what you vote for and what you get are different things.

Please don't open this can of worms where the answer is always " I didn't get the government I voted for in Scotland" 🙄

[James310]

Wanting isn't enough, James. In Scotland, as Russell mentioned before, what you vote for and what you get are different things.

Scotland voted to remain in the UK, we therefore voted to keep taking part in UK elections. If we didn't like that we would have voted Yes in 2014.

And yes you don't always get who you vote for, that's democracy.

[Ozyhibby]

But if they do then it’s a price worth paying?


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No reply?


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[Moulin Yarns]

Scotland voted to remain in the UK, we therefore voted to keep taking part in UK elections. If we didn't like that we would have voted Yes in 2014.

And yes you don't always get who you vote for, that's democracy.

And we all need a second chance 👍

[grunt]

Scotland voted to remain in the UK, we therefore voted to keep taking part in UK elections. If we didn't like that we would have voted Yes in 2014.This is trolling behaviour. How many times have we discussed the fact that there has been a material change since the 2014 referendum, which requires another vote? You know the answer to this yet you continue to post about it. That's trolling.


And yes you don't always get who you vote for, that's democracy.We can NEVER get the Government we vote for. That's not democracy.

[James310]

No reply?


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To yourself?

An outsider in the race for the PM said it and it looks like it was misinformation as well. He won't win and if he did it's not what you think it was.

https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1546400938906247168?t=raiHmw3Nhqp7ivIoVA-AQg&s=19

[James310]

This is trolling behaviour. How many times have we discussed the fact that there has been a material change since the 2014 referendum, which requires another vote? You know the answer to this yet you continue to post about it. That's trolling.

We can NEVER get the Government we vote for. That's not democracy.

If I am trolling the Admins will ban me, it's just an answer you don't like. Sorry about that.

We get the government we vote for in the Scottish Elections and we get the UK Government the UK votes for in UK elections, all facts. If we never wanted to take part in the UK elections ever again we would have voted to leave the UK, we never.

Stick me on ignore again.

[grunt]

If I am trolling the Admins will ban me, it's just an answer you don't like. Sorry about that.
I explained why I didn't like your answer - it's because it has been discussed on here a thousand times and you are ignoring the obvious response.

Stick me on ignore again.Are you deliberately provoking me or am I annoying you?

[Zambernardi1875]

Scotland voted to remain in the UK, we therefore voted to keep taking part in UK elections. If we didn't like that we would have voted Yes in 2014.

And yes you don't always get who you vote for, that's democracy.

have you watched undeclared war on ch4?

[grunt]

We get the government we vote for in the Scottish Elections and we get the UK Government the UK votes for in UK elections, all facts.

Good to see you're finally understanding our dilemma. We'll have you voting for independence before long.

[degenerated]

If I am trolling the Admins will ban me, it's just an answer you don't like. Sorry about that.

We get the government we vote for in the Scottish Elections and we get the UK Government the UK votes for in UK elections, all facts. If we never wanted to take part in the UK elections ever again we would have voted to leave the UK, we never.

Stick me on ignore again.Your commitment to the defence of the union is admirable and must be time consuming, it's like a full time job.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

have you watched undeclared war on ch4?

It's certainly quite thought provoking when it comes to what can ever truly be construed as "the truth".

[StevieC]

Right, so no fixed budget then.

Still a fixed budget .. but the ability to take additional money out of the pockets of the Scottish people. Budget from UK government stays fixed.

[StevieC]

No I don't, repeating myself again I don't want the Tory's to win the next GE.

Why do I have to repeat the same answers over and over.

Because you don’t get to personally choose the next government?

By stating you want to remain in the union you surely have to concede that you would be accepting whatever government was elected as the better option, and that means you are arguing that a Tory government with their proposed 20% cuts is the better option?

[James310]

I explained why I didn't like your answer - it's because it has been discussed on here a thousand times and you are ignoring the obvious response.
Are you deliberately provoking me or am I annoying you?


You didn't like my answer? Well sorry about that shall I give you an answer you like instead?

Just because someone disagrees with you it's not trolling. I have a different opinion that's all. It stands out as it's different to about 90% of the people on here. You sound like are you saying if only you thought like me you would see the light.

Imagine if I replied to people saying I don't like your answer so you are wrong!?!

[grunt]

You didn't like my answer? Well sorry about that shall I give you an answer you like instead?

Just because someone disagrees with you it's not trolling. I have a different opinion that's all. It stands out as it's different to about 90% of the people on here. You sound like are you saying if only you thought like me you would see the light.

Imagine if I replied to people saying I don't like your answer so you are wrong!?!Now you're just being silly. All I'm saying is that the point you made has been made on here many times, with a perfectly clear explanation as to why it won't wash. Yet you persist in posting it as if it's brand new information.

[danhibees1875]

The current chancellor wants to cut the NHS and education by 20% and James thinks we will be better off sticking with them.[emoji849]


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When was that announced? :confused:

Edit: it does appear to be reported that way actually. I'd read it as headcount cuts of the staff within the department as opposed to wholesale cuts of the budget for each department when I'd read it previously.

[Ozyhibby]

When was that announced? :confused:

Edit: it does appear to be reported that way actually. I'd read it as headcount cuts of the staff within the department as opposed to wholesale cuts of the budget for each department when I'd read it previously.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nadhim-zahawi-threatens-20-cuts-27448217.amp


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[Moulin Yarns]

When was that announced? :confused:

Edit: it does appear to be reported that way actually. I'd read it as headcount cuts of the staff within the department as opposed to wholesale cuts of the budget for each department when I'd read it previously.

Every day since September 19 2014. Assuming you were asking about the last bit 😉

[danhibees1875]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nadhim-zahawi-threatens-20-cuts-27448217.amp


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That does seem to be the headline everywhere is leading with.

I was sure I'd seen otherwise though so had a wee dig and found this article:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nadhim-zahawi-tory-leadership-tax-cuts-spending-b2120177.html

Which I think explains where the mix-up has came from:

But after Mr Zahawi’s interview was aired, his campaign team told The Independent the chancellor was referring to an existing controversial policy unveiled by Boris Johnson to reduce the civil service headcount.

I'm not sure which he was actually referring to now. It would surely seem unlikely though that the proposal is to cut full HNS and Education budgets by 20%... maybe not for the Tories though. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Who are the two men in the video?

https://twitter.com/jim45cotland/status/1547045271498022912

[CropleyWasGod]

Who are the two men in the video?

https://twitter.com/jim45cotland/status/1547045271498022912

The balls are on the blonde.

[lapsedhibee]

The balls are on the blonde.

Can feel the steam coming oot her ears while she listens.

[The Tubs]

Scotland voted to remain in the UK, we therefore voted to keep taking part in UK elections. If we didn't like that we would have voted Yes in 2014.

And yes you don't always get who you vote for, that's democracy.

Rousseau, for example, would be horrified by Westminster's form of democracy.

I'd hope that an independent Scotland could create a living democracy that would evolve towards his ideals and than the ossified one that we currently suffer.

[ronaldo7]

Love this. So much in there which can be translated to us Scots.

"The Pied Piper of Britishness marched us all down to the river, and left us there"

https://twitter.com/OwsWills/status/1407335110521901070

[Keith_M]

Scotland voted to remain in the UK, we therefore voted to keep taking part in UK elections. If we didn't like that we would have voted Yes in 2014.

And yes you don't always get who you vote for, that's democracy.


"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be."

[James310]

Odd, the day Nicola Sturgeon publishes her second paper on Independence and democracy in particular and not one single comment. But over 50 and counting on the Tory thread.

I guess it's the same stuff we have heard before?

[The Tubs]

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be."

"Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?"

[WeeRussell]

Odd, the day Nicola Sturgeon publishes her second paper on Independence and democracy in particular and not one single comment. But over 50 and counting on the Tory thread.

I guess it's the same stuff we have heard before?

I was just sitting waiting patiently for your thorough, balanced, and credible analysis on it, if I’m honest.

[James310]

I was just sitting waiting patiently for your thorough, balanced, and credible analysis on it, if I’m honest.

To be honest I was waiting to see what people thought of it, obviously very little. Seems nobody was listening to her today.

[Ozyhibby]

To be honest I was waiting to see what people thought of it, obviously very little. Seems nobody was listening to her today.

Everything in it made perfect sense and there was nothing contentious.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Everything in it made perfect sense and there was nothing contentious.


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I like all the quotes in the first section, hopefully used in any argument to the supreme Court.

[degenerated]

To be honest I was waiting to see what people thought of it, obviously very little. Seems nobody was listening to her today.That probably accounts for the lack of traffic then, given that you account for around 90% of the posts on this thread.

[grunt]

To be honest I was waiting to see what people thought of it, obviously very little. Seems nobody was listening to her today.

Why on Earth would you assume that the lack of comment meant that people thought little of it or weren't listening? It's a bizarre conclusion to arrive at.

Could it be that we all listened and thought, "yeah, that's exactly right. No more needs to be said. "

Or perhaps we were all just waiting on your pearls of wisdom.

[He's here!]

Odd, the day Nicola Sturgeon publishes her second paper on Independence and democracy in particular and not one single comment. But over 50 and counting on the Tory thread.

I guess it's the same stuff we have heard before?

Yes just a rehash of the usual indignation. Don't think it even made the main news bulletins.

[grunt]

Don't think it even made the main news bulletins.

As if that's an indication of anything other than how much it embarrasses the Tories.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes just a rehash of the usual indignation. Don't think it even made the main news bulletins.

If you put out something uncontentious then it’s not going to make the news.
Maybe if someone from the unionist camp had pointed out how outraged her claims were then maybe it might have made the news?
However most Scot’s, believe in our right to choose no matter which side of the debate they are on.


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[lapsedhibee]

Yes just a rehash of the usual indignation. Don't think it even made the main news bulletins.

See here:
Man bites dog (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_bites_dog#:~:text=Bogart%20(1848%E2%80%931921) %3A%20%22,Dana%20(1819%E2%80%931897))

[grunt]

https://t.co/ghWvCaLz8D


Rishi Sunak will circumvent Holyrood to implement key policies if he becomes prime minister because "we cannot trust the SNP to act in the best interests of the Scottish people", his most prominent supporter north of the border [Andrew Bowie] has said.

[degenerated]

https://t.co/ghWvCaLz8DThe unionists will be along soon to tell us how that would be a good thing, I'm sure.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-07-15/revealed-secret-plan-to-pack-lords-with-tory-loyalists?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1657904397-1

UK democracy in action.


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[weecounty hibby]

The unionists will be along soon to tell us how that would be a good thing, I'm sure.

Both Tories and Labour will continue to erode the Holyrood parliament. None of them really want Scotland to have any kind of say in how Scotland is run. They will do the same in Wales. Even though the Senedd is run by Labour, even the Labour leader can see what Westminster wants to do to the devolved nations

Edit. And yes I know that Labour were in power when the Scottish Parliament was set up. But times change and the Labour Party is a shadow of its firmer socialist, internationalist self

[WeeRussell]

The unionists will be along soon to tell us how that would be a good thing, I'm sure.

Only if it made the bbc main bulletins.

[James310]

The unionists will be along soon to tell us how that would be a good thing, I'm sure.

It's in The Times, we are allowed to just dismiss any articles and polls we want because of who publishes it, that's how it works here yes? That's what normally happens.

[Glory Lurker]

Both Tories and Labour will continue to erode the Holyrood parliament. None of them really want Scotland to have any kind of say in how Scotland is run. They will do the same in Wales. Even though the Senedd is run by Labour, even the Labour leader can see what Westminster wants to do to the devolved nations

Edit. And yes I know that Labour were in power when the Scottish Parliament was set up. But times change and the Labour Party is a shadow of its firmer socialist, internationalist self

More importantly they expected to be the main party by miles for, er, generations.

The two question referendum was justified as a way of bulwarking any positive result against any future resistance at Westminster. That resistance has been in play for the last couple of years without the Labour midwives of devolution saying anything. What Bowie is talking about might not happen, but I'm surprised Labour isn't all over it saying "decisive referendum, settled will", etc.

[lapsedhibee]

Reasons for Scotland to go its own way and become a 21st century democratic republic #2956983:

Dorries will be involved in UK law making for the rest of her life.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/16/johnson-plan-peerages-early-byelections-nadine-dorries-nigel-adams

[Ozyhibby]

https://thecritic.co.uk/how-to-nix-the-nats/


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[lapsedhibee]

https://thecritic.co.uk/how-to-nix-the-nats/


Spoof? :dunno:

[Rumble de Thump]

Jon Stanley is a researcher for the Bow Group, which describes itself as the world's oldest Conservative think tank. The article is basically just another Tory press release.

[Jack]

Spoof? :dunno:

Scots bashing competition among the torys.

[degenerated]

Spoof? :dunno:I got to the 2nd paragraph before I got bored and gave up.

[lucky]

Both Tories and Labour will continue to erode the Holyrood parliament. None of them really want Scotland to have any kind of say in how Scotland is run. They will do the same in Wales. Even though the Senedd is run by Labour, even the Labour leader can see what Westminster wants to do to the devolved nations

Edit. And yes I know that Labour were in power when the Scottish Parliament was set up. But times change and the Labour Party is a shadow of its firmer socialist, internationalist self

That’s just a lazy view and one in my opinion that does not stand up, you can’t blame Labour for taking power from Holyrood or the Senedd when they’ve not had any in years.

Are you actually claiming that this Labour Party are more right wing than New Labour? We’ve just had the Corbyn years and a lot of left wing MPs elected. I get there is a massive support for independence on this board but sometimes some of the comments that are made against staying in the U.K. or non SNP parties just aren’t credible.

[Ozyhibby]

That’s just a lazy view and one in my opinion that does not stand up, you can’t blame Labour for taking power from Holyrood or the Senedd when they’ve not had any in years.

Are you actually claiming that this Labour Party are more right wing than New Labour? We’ve just had the Corbyn years and a lot of left wing MPs elected. I get there is a massive support for independence on this board but sometimes some of the comments that are made against staying in the U.K. or non SNP parties just aren’t credible.

The Labour Party were the biggest block against any meaningful powers being handed to the Scottish Parliament from the Smith commission.


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[ronaldo7]

That’s just a lazy view and one in my opinion that does not stand up, you can’t blame Labour for taking power from Holyrood or the Senedd when they’ve not had any in years.

Are you actually claiming that this Labour Party are more right wing than New Labour? We’ve just had the Corbyn years and a lot of left wing MPs elected. I get there is a massive support for independence on this board but sometimes some of the comments that are made against staying in the U.K. or non SNP parties just aren’t credible.

Labour voted for Brexit, which has now allowed the Tories to implement the internal market bill in Westminster which is currently undermining the Scottish Parliament. Labour won't countenance a return to the EU whatsoever, with the current leader saying the policy is forever.

[Smartie]

I reckon Labour probably now regret devolution.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/britain-s-sclerotic-state-is-killing-prosperity

Britain is sinking fast, stick with us Scotland.


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[lucky]

Labour voted for Brexit, which has now allowed the Tories to implement the internal market bill in Westminster which is currently undermining the Scottish Parliament. Labour won't countenance a return to the EU whatsoever, with the current leader saying the policy is forever.

That’s respecting democracy! The people of U.K. voted to leave. I know your a big independence supporter but the vote was not Scotland’s alone to make. I voted to remain but I won’t necessarily vote rejoin if Scotland is an independent country and want to rejoin. We need to look at what’s on offer at that time.

Labour are attempting to woo voters in England and get Scots onboard but our nation is split 50/50 on independence so 1 party gets the indie vote and 3 jostle for the other 50%. In a first past the post election it’s unlikely that’s going to change anytime soon. So the SNP will return a large amount of MPs who will have a choice to make if the U.K. Parliament is hung. I really want the Scottish people to decide on our constitutional future and believe the right to call a referendum should be taken at Holyrood.

[James310]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/britain-s-sclerotic-state-is-killing-prosperity

Britain is sinking fast, stick with us Scotland.


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Hard right Andrew Neil's hard right Spectator magazine is fast becoming the favourite magazine on here.

[Smartie]

Hard right Andrew Neil's hard right Spectator magazine is fast becoming the favourite magazine on here.

It’s very useful insight into the mindset of those who choose our governments for us.

[The Modfather]

Hard right Andrew Neil's hard right Spectator magazine is fast becoming the favourite magazine on here.

Any comments on the content of the article?

[ronaldo7]

That’s respecting democracy! The people of U.K. voted to leave. I know your a big independence supporter but the vote was not Scotland’s alone to make. I voted to remain but I won’t necessarily vote rejoin if Scotland is an independent country and want to rejoin. We need to look at what’s on offer at that time.

Labour are attempting to woo voters in England and get Scots onboard but our nation is split 50/50 on independence so 1 party gets the indie vote and 3 jostle for the other 50%. In a first past the post election it’s unlikely that’s going to change anytime soon. So the SNP will return a large amount of MPs who will have a choice to make if the U.K. Parliament is hung. I really want the Scottish people to decide on our constitutional future and believe the right to call a referendum should be taken at Holyrood.

Fair stance.

The trouble with accepting democracy some time, and not at other times leaves the party rather shallow, hence their position in Scotland. Ian Murray was telling everyone that a democracy fails to be a democracy if the public can't change their minds, and yet stifles Scottish democracy.

[Just Alf]

Any comments on the content of the article?Never are ??

[Skol]

Never are ??

It is behind a pay wall so I couldn’t read the article.

[The Modfather]

It is behind a pay wall so I couldn’t read the article.

It wasn’t earlier otherwise I’d not have been able to read it either.

[lucky]

Fair stance.

The trouble with accepting democracy some time, and not at other times leaves the party rather shallow, hence their position in Scotland. Ian Murray was telling everyone that a democracy fails to be a democracy if the public can't change their minds, and yet stifles Scottish democracy.

Spot on and that’s why Labour are wrong to be against another referendum. Democracy should always be at the heart of our politics but too many politicians want to be at the heart of our nation rather than the people.

[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/scotlands-choice/id1568727664?i=1000569617258

Fascinating interview with an Irish TD on the massive advantages Ireland enjoys being an independent nation and why they are performing so far ahead of us.


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[Callum_62]

THE UK Government’s effort to have the Supreme Court case for a Scottish independence referendum thrown out without even receiving evidence on it has been rejected, The National can reveal.

It marks a victory for the Scottish Government in the first major legal battle in the Supreme Court showdown.

The development is a “significant step forward” in the process of having the full case heard and securing a referendum, the SNP have said.

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[The Modfather]

“UK living standards fall at record rate as inflation soars”, sure others will be able to give a more comprehensive and articulate analysis on this article than I can. However it does make grim reading. What’s the answer and way forward if it’s not independence?

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/19/uk-living-standards-fall-inflation-cost-of-living-crisis-prices

[The_Exile]

“UK living standards fall at record rate as inflation soars”, sure others will be able to give a more comprehensive and articulate analysis on this article than I can. However it does make grim reading. What’s the answer and way forward if it’s not independence?

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/19/uk-living-standards-fall-inflation-cost-of-living-crisis-prices

Universal Basic Income. Although my choice would be Universal Basic Income in an independent Scotland.

[Ozyhibby]

Universal Basic Income. Although my choice would be Universal Basic Income in an independent Scotland.

UBI is a bit like MMT. I’ve never seen it work anywhere but it sounds good.
I think there is a lot can be done that is short of that and that is proven to work. We should be looking closely and the countries we might wish emulate and take ideas from them that will increase the standard of living here. You can’t copy everything from one country but you can pick and choose the ideas that suit our needs. And given that most of the countries around us are doing better than we are, there should be lots of little things that we can do to improve our lot. It doesn’t have to be one big idea that we can stick on a bus, just lots of incremental improvements in the way we structure our society.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/analysis/id267300806?i=1000570377382

Even the BBC recognise the country is sinking. Well worth a listen.


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[James310]

Kenny Farquharson saying pretty much what I have been saying regards another referendum. It should only be when there is a sustainable increase in support for Independence and it should be used basically as confirmation that it is indeed the will of the people. I know many would take a 50.1% victory tomorrow but that would be IMO a disastrous way to start a new country, much better one side wins and wins by a prominent margin.

So over to the SNP to convince the majority of people that Independence is the best option, something they have failed to do.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kenny-farquharson-new-pm-must-grab-sturgeons-compromise-dmgvkdlms


"Within Whitehall there is already recognition that “now is not the time” has a shelf life as a blocking mechanism. If support for breaking up Britain reached 60 per cent it is hard to see how any UK government could credibly hold out against it. Is Scotland’s presence within the Union voluntary? If so, there has to be a legal exit route, whether or not Scots choose to take it.

Any such offer would not be uncontroversial. Diehard unionists would cry treachery. However, I believe a majority of the country would see this for what it was: a bold, generous offer from a prime minister prepared to make the big calls on the big issues.

How could Sturgeon refuse? After all, these were the terms she herself laid down when she came to power after the 2014 vote. Her aides briefed that the trigger for a new vote would be 60 per cent support for independence sustained over a year.

In fact, I believe the SNP leadership would be somewhat relieved to concede the principle that a referendum’s purpose was confirmatory, rather than a mechanism to manufacture a majority. Far better to start life as an independent nation with a healthy proportion of the population willing it to work."

[Ozyhibby]

Kenny Farquharson saying pretty much what I have been saying regards another referendum. It should only be when there is a sustainable increase in support for Independence and it should be used basically as confirmation that it is indeed the will of the people. I know many would take a 50.1% victory tomorrow but that would be IMO a disastrous way to start a new country, much better one side wins and wins by a prominent margin.

So over to the SNP to convince the majority of people that Independence is the best option, something they have failed to do.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kenny-farquharson-new-pm-must-grab-sturgeons-compromise-dmgvkdlms


"Within Whitehall there is already recognition that “now is not the time” has a shelf life as a blocking mechanism. If support for breaking up Britain reached 60 per cent it is hard to see how any UK government could credibly hold out against it. Is Scotland’s presence within the Union voluntary? If so, there has to be a legal exit route, whether or not Scots choose to take it.

Any such offer would not be uncontroversial. Diehard unionists would cry treachery. However, I believe a majority of the country would see this for what it was: a bold, generous offer from a prime minister prepared to make the big calls on the big issues.

How could Sturgeon refuse? After all, these were the terms she herself laid down when she came to power after the 2014 vote. Her aides briefed that the trigger for a new vote would be 60 per cent support for independence sustained over a year.

In fact, I believe the SNP leadership would be somewhat relieved to concede the principle that a referendum’s purpose was confirmatory, rather than a mechanism to manufacture a majority. Far better to start life as an independent nation with a healthy proportion of the population willing it to work."

More made up rules. If the Scottish Parliament votes for a referendum then there should be a referendum.


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[grunt]

If support for breaking up Britain reached 60 per cent it is hard to see how any UK government could credibly hold out against it. Is Scotland’s presence within the Union voluntary? If so, there has to be a legal exit route, whether or not Scots choose to take it.
So how did he arrive at the 60% figure? Or did he just pluck a number out of the air and write it in The Times? Is this number set out in any official guidance or statute? (No, it's not).

All of these articles fail to appreciate that the SNP fought an election campaign on a manifesto promise to hold a referendum and they won. I know that keeping manifesto pledges is anathema to the Tory party, but it's a practice I'm personally quite happy with.

Next?

[Smartie]

Kenny Farquharson saying pretty much what I have been saying regards another referendum. It should only be when there is a sustainable increase in support for Independence and it should be used basically as confirmation that it is indeed the will of the people. I know many would take a 50.1% victory tomorrow but that would be IMO a disastrous way to start a new country, much better one side wins and wins by a prominent margin.

So over to the SNP to convince the majority of people that Independence is the best option, something they have failed to do.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kenny-farquharson-new-pm-must-grab-sturgeons-compromise-dmgvkdlms


"Within Whitehall there is already recognition that “now is not the time” has a shelf life as a blocking mechanism. If support for breaking up Britain reached 60 per cent it is hard to see how any UK government could credibly hold out against it. Is Scotland’s presence within the Union voluntary? If so, there has to be a legal exit route, whether or not Scots choose to take it.

Any such offer would not be uncontroversial. Diehard unionists would cry treachery. However, I believe a majority of the country would see this for what it was: a bold, generous offer from a prime minister prepared to make the big calls on the big issues.

How could Sturgeon refuse? After all, these were the terms she herself laid down when she came to power after the 2014 vote. Her aides briefed that the trigger for a new vote would be 60 per cent support for independence sustained over a year.

In fact, I believe the SNP leadership would be somewhat relieved to concede the principle that a referendum’s purpose was confirmatory, rather than a mechanism to manufacture a majority. Far better to start life as an independent nation with a healthy proportion of the population willing it to work."

I actually think there are some reasonable points here, and I’m in favour of independence.

[James310]

So how did he arrive at the 60% figure? Or did he just pluck a number out of the air and write it in The Times? Is this number set out in any official guidance or statute? (No, it's not).

All of these articles fail to appreciate that the SNP fought an election campaign on a manifesto promise to hold a referendum and they won. I know that keeping manifesto pledges is anathema to the Tory party, but it's a practice I'm personally quite happy with.

Next?

He said how, it was suggested that was the SNPs own figure.

[James310]

More made up rules. If the Scottish Parliament votes for a referendum then there should be a referendum.


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So if the next PM offered that compromise you would say no thanks?

[Mon Dieu4]

Kenny Farquharson saying pretty much what I have been saying regards another referendum. It should only be when there is a sustainable increase in support for Independence and it should be used basically as confirmation that it is indeed the will of the people. I know many would take a 50.1% victory tomorrow but that would be IMO a disastrous way to start a new country, much better one side wins and wins by a prominent margin.

So over to the SNP to convince the majority of people that Independence is the best option, something they have failed to do.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kenny-farquharson-new-pm-must-grab-sturgeons-compromise-dmgvkdlms


"Within Whitehall there is already recognition that “now is not the time” has a shelf life as a blocking mechanism. If support for breaking up Britain reached 60 per cent it is hard to see how any UK government could credibly hold out against it. Is Scotland’s presence within the Union voluntary? If so, there has to be a legal exit route, whether or not Scots choose to take it.

Any such offer would not be uncontroversial. Diehard unionists would cry treachery. However, I believe a majority of the country would see this for what it was: a bold, generous offer from a prime minister prepared to make the big calls on the big issues.

How could Sturgeon refuse? After all, these were the terms she herself laid down when she came to power after the 2014 vote. Her aides briefed that the trigger for a new vote would be 60 per cent support for independence sustained over a year.

In fact, I believe the SNP leadership would be somewhat relieved to concede the principle that a referendum’s purpose was confirmatory, rather than a mechanism to manufacture a majority. Far better to start life as an independent nation with a healthy proportion of the population willing it to work."

What mechanism would you use to see that 60% favoured independence? An opinion poll? If so then which one? Would that be more valid than the independence parties romping(so much so it's not even close) every single election since 2014

[Ozyhibby]

He said how, it was suggested that was the SNPs own figure.

It was the SNP’s own internal figure before brexit. A political decision based on nothing having changed since 2014.
Why not allow a vote with the caveat that 10 years must pass before another vote? That’s a compromise that I think people could live with.
In the end, you can’t go making up rules now which make it harder to have a vote. And any rule changes need agreed with the SG.


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[Ozyhibby]

What mechanism would you use to see that 60% favoured independence? An opinion poll? If so then which one? Would that be more valid than the independence parties romping(so much so it's not even close) every single election since 2014

Not just any independence poll. It would need to be one of Scotland in Union’s polls.


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[Mon Dieu4]

Not just any independence poll. It would need to be one of Scotland in Union’s polls.


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Could just do a poll on Follow Follow:greengrin

[James310]

What mechanism would you use to see that 60% favoured independence? An opinion poll? If so then which one? Would that be more valid than the independence parties romping(so much so it's not even close) every single election since 2014

Probably the same way the SNP was going to do it when they had 60% as their target.

[James310]

It was the SNP’s own internal figure before brexit. A political decision based on nothing having changed since 2014.
Why not allow a vote with the caveat that 10 years must pass before another vote? That’s a compromise that I think people could live with.
In the end, you can’t go making up rules now which make it harder to have a vote. And any rule changes need agreed with the SG.


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So before Brexit how would the SNP have worked out support was at 60%? If the method was good enough then why it's not any good now?

[Ozyhibby]

So before Brexit how would the SNP have worked out support was at 60%? If the method was good enough then why it's not any good now?

You serious?


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[Just Alf]

Kenny Farquharson saying pretty much what I have been saying regards another referendum. It should only be when there is a sustainable increase in support for Independence and it should be used basically as confirmation that it is indeed the will of the people. I know many would take a 50.1% victory tomorrow but that would be IMO a disastrous way to start a new country, much better one side wins and wins by a prominent margin.

So over to the SNP to convince the majority of people that Independence is the best option, something they have failed to do.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kenny-farquharson-new-pm-must-grab-sturgeons-compromise-dmgvkdlms


"Within Whitehall there is already recognition that “now is not the time” has a shelf life as a blocking mechanism. If support for breaking up Britain reached 60 per cent it is hard to see how any UK government could credibly hold out against it. Is Scotland’s presence within the Union voluntary? If so, there has to be a legal exit route, whether or not Scots choose to take it.

Any such offer would not be uncontroversial. Diehard unionists would cry treachery. However, I believe a majority of the country would see this for what it was: a bold, generous offer from a prime minister prepared to make the big calls on the big issues.

How could Sturgeon refuse? After all, these were the terms she herself laid down when she came to power after the 2014 vote. Her aides briefed that the trigger for a new vote would be 60 per cent support for independence sustained over a year.

In fact, I believe the SNP leadership would be somewhat relieved to concede the principle that a referendum’s purpose was confirmatory, rather than a mechanism to manufacture a majority. Far better to start life as an independent nation with a healthy proportion of the population willing it to work."He has some good points but, for me, misses the key element.

The Scottish electorate voted to be given the option of making the choice, that's a completely different argument as to whether Scotland should be independent or not.

At the moment many (Westminster etc) are arguing to deny democracy.

The discussion on actual independence is a separate issue and the issues discussed in the article are interesting... whoever polled 49.9% could quite legitimately argue that there's no mandate for such a change.

Mind you I argued similar for how we, as the UK voted for Brexit meant that numbers wise we should be heading towards a soft version I ended getting shot down by Brexit supporters on here saying it was a binary decision and the yes/no% was irrelevant.

[James310]

You serious?


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You said yourself it was the SNP target before Brexit, so how would the SNP have judged support at 60%? Yes, a serious question.

[James310]

He has some good points but, for me, misses the key element.

The Scottish electorate voted to be given the option of making the choice, that's a completely different argument as to whether Scotland should be independent or not.

At the moment many (Westminster etc) are arguing to deny democracy.

The discussion on actual independence is a separate issue and the issues discussed in the article are interesting... whoever polled 49.9% could quite legitimately argue that there's no mandate for such a change.

Mind you I argued similar for how we, as the UK voted for Brexit meant that numbers wise we should be heading towards a soft version I ended getting shot down by Brexit supporters on here saying it was a binary decision and the yes/no% was irrelevant.

On Brexit you were correct, and the lesson to be learnt is it's almost impossible to deliver change when the margins are so fine. At 60% it's big enough where even the most committed supporters would accept it and it would make the transition significantly easier.

[Just Alf]

On Brexit you were correct, and the lesson to be learnt is it's almost impossible to deliver change when the margins are so fine. At 60% it's big enough where even the most committed supporters would accept it and it would make the transition significantly easier.I assume this means you agree the precedent has been set despite the undoubted issues?

[Ozyhibby]

You said yourself it was the SNP target before Brexit, so how would the SNP have judged support at 60%? Yes, a serious question.

As it was an internal SNP political decision they could have done it any way they liked. One poll at 60%? And they could drop it any time they liked.
With the scheme suggested here there would need to be a far more robust methodology.
And why should we accept a change in the rules now which make an indyref harder to achieve? A change like this can’t be introduced unilaterally so it needs the backing of the SG. That’s not going to happen. If you want to codify the grounds for future referendum then it need to be with the agreement of the SG. You are only getting that as part of a s30 order.
The article itself says that there is a limited shelf life for ‘now is not the time’. They will need to come up with a better offer than that.


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[Ozyhibby]

And a simple majority in any referendum will always be enough. Always.


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[James310]

I assume this means you agree the precedent has been set despite the undoubted issues?

No, I am saying a referendum should only be held when a clear margin in favour for either side is there, that's the lesson. Let's not repeat mistakes, just because the mistake might favour your side this time.

It would be hypocrisy if you said a Yes victory of 50.1% meant full blown Independence. If you thought it meant a soft Brexit then you would also think it would mean a soft Independence, whatever that is.

[James310]

As it was an internal SNP political decision they could have done it any way they liked. One poll at 60%? And they could drop it any time they liked.
With the scheme suggested here there would need to be a far more robust methodology.
And why should we accept a change in the rules now which make an indyref harder to achieve? A change like this can’t be introduced unilaterally so it needs the backing of the SG. That’s not going to happen. If you want to codify the grounds for future referendum then it need to be with the agreement of the SG. You are only getting that as part of a s30 order.
The article itself says that there is a limited shelf life for ‘now is not the time’. They will need to come up with a better offer than that.


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Why is persuading 60% of people that Independence is the way forward such a difficult thing to do? If it's a great proposal then 60% should be achievable.

[Ozyhibby]

Why is persuading 60% of people that Independence is the way forward such a difficult thing to do? If it's a great proposal then 60% should be achievable.

You’d think the union would be able to achieve that after 300 years.[emoji849]


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[James310]

And a simple majority in any referendum will always be enough. Always.


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It will win yes, but it will do the country no favours at all. I know you like the economist Mark Blythe and called him a heavyweight, he said the following on Independence winning with 51%.

"you will have massive capital flight, economically it's very damaging and you just won't bring the people with you".

[James310]

You’d think the union would be able to achieve that after 300 years.[emoji849]


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It got close at 55% not that long ago. Clearly 60% would have been better but as I say when it's so close it really makes anything below 60% not decisive.

[Ozyhibby]

It got close at 55% not that long ago. Clearly 60% would have been better but as I say when it's so close it really makes anything below 60% not decisive.

So until one side gets to 60% we need to keep having referendums?


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[Keith_M]

Just of interest, how many Kings of Scotland (pre Union of the Crowns) were called James?

There's somebody that obsessively posts on this thread and I'm beginning to wonder if it's because he's secretly hoping to be the next one.


:wink:

[James310]

So until one side gets to 60% we need to keep having referendums?


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Lol, I think you know that's not what I said. Wasn't I clear in the previous posts and all the other times I have said it? You have the referendum when it's clear one side is at 60% and it should just be the confirmation of what we already know. I think I have been pretty clear on that.

Like in the article I referenced.

"that a referendum’s purpose was confirmatory, rather than a mechanism to manufacture a majority. Far better to start life as an independent nation with a healthy proportion of the population willing it to work."

[James310]

Just of interest, how many Kings of Scotland (pre Union of the Crowns) were called James?

There's somebody that obsessively posts on this thread and I'm beginning to wonder if it's because he's secretly hoping to be the next one.


:wink:

To be fair I post once and get about 10 replies, even from people ignoring me. If I don't reply then I get accused of ignoring the questions! I can't really win can I? 🤣

[Keith_M]

To be fair I post once and get about 10 replies, even from people ignoring me. If I don't reply then I get accused of ignoring the questions! I can't really win can I? 🤣


Of course not, your Majesty.


:greengrin

[The Modfather]

Lol, I think you know that's not what I said. Wasn't I clear in the previous posts and all the other times I have said it? You have the referendum when it's clear one side is at 60% and it should just be the confirmation of what we already know. I think I have been pretty clear on that.

Like in the article I referenced.

"that a referendum’s purpose was confirmatory, rather than a mechanism to manufacture a majority. Far better to start life as an independent nation with a healthy proportion of the population willing it to work."

How do you gauge the public opinion is 60% either way?

If (when) opinion polls creep up towards 60% of people being unhappy with the Brexit that was delivered. Should we have another referendum at that point? Or can we not look at opinion polls until another generation has passed? There’s some good points about referendums that aren’t decisive and neverendums etc, which I agree with a lot of. However it does feel like the goalposts are ever changing.

[Just Alf]

To be fair I post once and get about 10 replies, even from people ignoring me. If I don't reply then I get accused of ignoring the questions! I can't really win can I? [emoji1787]Lol, I do feel for you sometimes :greengrin

You hold your own tho.


Anyways were you not pushing Sturgeon to hold the referendum next year as promised in the snp manifesto?

(Apologies if it was he's here!)

[DaveF]

Lol, I do feel for you sometimes :greengrin

You hold your own tho.


Anyways were you not pushing Sturgeon to hold the referendum next year as promised in the snp manifesto?

(Apologies if it was he's here!)

He could always go to the shops for a week break.

[Just Alf]

He could always go to the shops for a week break.:greengrin

[James310]

He could always go to the shops for a week break.

These jokes were tiresome last week and even more so this week.

[grunt]

To be fair I post once and get about 10 replies, even from people ignoring me. If I don't reply then I get accused of ignoring the questions! I can't really win can I? [emoji1787]

By definition if someone replies to you they can't be ignoring you, can they?

[DaveF]

These jokes were tiresome last week and even more so this week.

Well maybe you can stop digging up grunt for the ignore thing which is even more tiresome.

[James310]

Well maybe you can stop digging up grunt for the ignore thing which is even more tiresome.

I have no idea what this means.

Much better if we stick to the topic though, then we will all be happy.

[ronaldo7]

I have no idea what this means.

Much better if we stick to the topic though, then we will all be happy.

Are you seriously saying we should trust the UK Gov polling?
Maybe you could ask Michael Gove to release his polling information he's been sitting on for the last couple of years. We could maybe use that.

[James310]

Are you seriously saying we should trust the UK Gov polling?
Maybe you could ask Michael Gove to release his polling information he's been sitting on for the last couple of years. We could maybe use that.

How would the SNP have done it? I would suggest the same way they had in mind.

Maybe a poll every 6 months that the Scottish Government and UK Government agree the terms on, something like that. I don't know but I am sure both parties could come together and agree something if the will was there.

Is that the Michael Gove poll that has Yes at 70%? I think even you don't believe that.

I get that nationalists don't like the idea as they know getting 60% of people to support Independence under the SNP in its current make up is really quite difficult. But if it's such a great proposal then 60% should be a realistic target.

[Moulin Yarns]

No, I am saying a referendum should only be held when a clear margin in favour for either side is there, that's the lesson. Let's not repeat mistakes, just because the mistake might favour your side this time.

It would be hypocrisy if you said a Yes victory of 50.1% meant full blown Independence. If you thought it meant a soft Brexit then you would also think it would mean a soft Independence, whatever that is.

How do you discover whether there is a majority one way or the other? Hold a referendum.

Polling is a guide but open to abuse.

[wee_cooper]

How would the SNP have done it? I would suggest the same way they had in mind.

Maybe a poll every 6 months that the Scottish Government and UK Government agree the terms on, something like that. I don't know but I am sure both parties could come together and agree something if the will was there.

Is that the Michael Gove poll that has Yes at 70%? I think even you don't believe that.

I get that nationalists don't like the idea as they know getting 60% of people to support Independence under the SNP in its current make up is really quite difficult. But if it's such a great proposal then 60% should be a realistic target.

That would be called a referendum.

[James310]

How do you discover whether there is a majority one way or the other? Hold a referendum.

Polling is a guide but open to abuse.

I am not into conspiracy theories though, if the SG and UK Governments came together and agreed a process I am sure it could be done. Then the referendum is basically the confirmation of what we should in theory already know.

As I say getting 60% under the current SNP is going to be very hard, so I get the reluctance to adopt this. Maybe with a new fresh leadership with a different approach it might be different and with a winning proposal 60% could be achieved.