Scottish Independence

[James310]

So Nicola Sturgeons bogeyman is away, funnily enough Boris Johnson made the case for Independence and now he is away guess what, it also makes the case for Independence. And I am sure the next PM will also make the case for Independence.

I would maybe expect a short burst of support for Independence but I don't see it lasting. One thing Nicola Sturgeon is not good at is speaking to No voters, she rallys her troops and the people already convinced get more convinced but what the shambles in Westminster doesn't do is answer the outstanding questions on currency, borders, deficit, how to join the EU etc. Maybe if she can do that she will finally get some No voters on side. Now is her chance and let's face it she will never have an opportunity like this again (well maybe)

[WeeRussell]

So Nicola Sturgeons bogeyman is away, funnily enough Boris Johnson made the case for Independence and now he is away guess what, it also makes the case for Independence. And I am sure the next PM will also make the case for Independence.

I would maybe expect a short burst of support for Independence but I don't see it lasting. One thing Nicola Sturgeon is not good at is speaking to No voters, she rallys her troops and the people already convinced get more convinced but what the shambles in Westminster doesn't do is answer the outstanding questions on currency, borders, deficit, how to join the EU etc. Maybe if she can do that she will finally get some No voters on side. Now is her chance and let's face it she will never have an opportunity like this again (well maybe)

For someone that isn’t in the least bit worried and doesn’t think anyone has changed their mind re independence, you don’t half haver on like someone that is trying to convince himself.

Why are you so obsessed if it’s clearly never happening anytime soon?

[James310]

For someone that isn’t in the least bit worried and doesn’t think anyone has changed their mind re independence, you don’t half haver on like someone that is trying to convince himself.

Why are you so obsessed if it’s clearly never happening anytime soon?

My sincere apologies for offering a view.

[WeeRussell]

My sincere apologies for offering a view.

No apology necessary - it was (still is) a genuine question.

[Moulin Yarns]

For someone that isn’t in the least bit worried and doesn’t think anyone has changed their mind re independence, you don’t half haver on like someone that is trying to convince himself.

Why are you so obsessed if it’s clearly never happening anytime soon?

It's been incredibly quiet from the Tories today 🤔

[James310]

No apology necessary - it was (still is) a genuine question.

I take an interest in the future of Scotland, sorry about that. Probably like you and the others?

[James310]

It's been incredibly quiet from the Tories today 🤔

Really, looks kinda like a busy day.

[Smartie]

So Nicola Sturgeons bogeyman is away, funnily enough Boris Johnson made the case for Independence and now he is away guess what, it also makes the case for Independence. And I am sure the next PM will also make the case for Independence.

I would maybe expect a short burst of support for Independence but I don't see it lasting. One thing Nicola Sturgeon is not good at is speaking to No voters, she rallys her troops and the people already convinced get more convinced but what the shambles in Westminster doesn't do is answer the outstanding questions on currency, borders, deficit, how to join the EU etc. Maybe if she can do that she will finally get some No voters on side. Now is her chance and let's face it she will never have an opportunity like this again (well maybe)

What punctures the case for independence more than anything is a competent Westminster government whose actions benefit the majority of the people of Scotland the majority of the time (you'll never please all of the people all of the time).

I realise I'm describing a rainbow coloured unicorn (ie it exists in the imagination and not reality) but can you not accept that the current cluster**** situation makes a stronger case for the validity of Scotland governing itself?

I can certainly accept that if the current shambles gives way to stability and competence of any sort then it makes the case for independence weaker.

[Hibrandenburg]

So Nicola Sturgeons bogeyman is away, funnily enough Boris Johnson made the case for Independence and now he is away guess what, it also makes the case for Independence. And I am sure the next PM will also make the case for Independence.

You're finally smelling the coffee.

[James310]

What punctures the case for independence more than anything is a competent Westminster government whose actions benefit the majority of the people of Scotland the majority of the time (you'll never please all of the people all of the time).

I realise I'm describing a rainbow coloured unicorn (ie it exists in the imagination and not reality) but can you not accept that the current cluster**** situation makes a stronger case for the validity of Scotland governing itself?

I can certainly accept that if the current shambles gives way to stability and competence of any sort then it makes the case for independence weaker.

Absolutely, I am not denying that and that's what I am saying. If you are a soft No then you look at the events of the last few days and you think what a shambles. I am saying this is a great opportunity for the SNP to answer the questions and maybe soft No voters can be convinced. I don't think there will be a better opportunity than this.

[Smartie]

Absolutely, I am not denying that and that's what I am saying. If you are a soft No then you look at the events of the last few days and you think what a shambles. I am saying this is a great opportunity for the SNP to answer the questions and maybe soft No voters can be convinced. I don't think there will be a better opportunity than this.

My concern is that the opportunity was probably the past 2 years. Maybe 5 years.

If they haven't made serious inroads into changing people's minds then maybe they never will?

You'd have to expect that at some point they'll get their act together at Westminster.

And then you hear Steve Baker prattling on about how popular he is and how suited to the role he'd be, so maybe there's a bit to go yet.

[weecounty hibby]

Anyone remember when unionists were getting excited cos they thought NS would have to resign? Now there getting excited cos Johnsin has resigned. The desperation is unbelievable

[James310]

Anyone remember when unionists were getting excited cos they thought NS would have to resign? Now there getting excited cos Johnsin has resigned. The desperation is unbelievable

I am delighted he has resigned, I have been consistent in saying I think he has been a terrible PM and man.

I have changed my mind about Nicola Sturgeon, hope she stays for a while yet.

[Ozyhibby]

Next three months of Tory candidates trying to outdo each other on how they’ll stick it to the Scots by denying them democracy won’t hurt.[emoji106]


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[James310]

My concern is that the opportunity was probably the past 2 years. Maybe 5 years.

If they haven't made serious inroads into changing people's minds then maybe they never will?

You'd have to expect that at some point they'll get their act together at Westminster.

And then you hear Steve Baker prattling on about how popular he is and how suited to the role he'd be, so maybe there's a bit to go yet.

You might be onto something. Maybe the opportunity has gone.

https://twitter.com/ballotboxmedia/status/1545082450967203840?t=6GFnIcklO6CWd7GcJ4RI6A&s=19


I am guessing the Scottish results are a sub sample of the UK poll though.

[The Modfather]

So Nicola Sturgeons bogeyman is away, funnily enough Boris Johnson made the case for Independence and now he is away guess what, it also makes the case for Independence. And I am sure the next PM will also make the case for Independence.

I would maybe expect a short burst of support for Independence but I don't see it lasting. One thing Nicola Sturgeon is not good at is speaking to No voters, she rallys her troops and the people already convinced get more convinced but what the shambles in Westminster doesn't do is answer the outstanding questions on currency, borders, deficit, how to join the EU etc. Maybe if she can do that she will finally get some No voters on side. Now is her chance and let's face it she will never have an opportunity like this again (well maybe)

I think her true chance is when the campaigning and debates begin and this time she can ask as many questions as the No side last time. “answer the outstanding questions on currency, borders, deficit, how to join the EU etc”, those are all valid questions and even as a yes voter things I’d like to see proper answers on.

However, I’d also like to see what the post Brexit UK looks like in the short, medium and long term. How do we get out of the cost of living crisis and try to safeguard it happening again in the future. How does the rest of the UK get more of a voice and more control of local and regional affairs rather than a one size fits all cater to London and the SE approach etc.

[Moulin Yarns]

You might be onto something. Maybe the opportunity has gone.

https://twitter.com/ballotboxmedia/status/1545082450967203840?t=6GFnIcklO6CWd7GcJ4RI6A&s=19


I am guessing the Scottish results are a sub sample of the UK poll though.

More likely a poll that has extrapolated the voting intentions ignoring the elephant in the room of independence.

[James310]

More likely a poll that has extrapolated the voting intentions ignoring the elephant in the room of independence.

How does a poll on who you are voting for in Westminster ignore Independence?

[Just Alf]

How does a poll on who you are voting for in Westminster ignore Independence?It's a UK wide poll, often the number of respondants isn't reflected closely in the various areas around the UK.

[degenerated]

More likely a poll that has extrapolated the voting intentions ignoring the elephant in the room of independence.They polled 120 people in Scotland :hilarious

[Keith_M]

Querulant



Moi?


:greengrin

[James310]

It's a UK wide poll, often the number of respondants isn't reflected closely in the various areas around the UK.

Yes that's what I said, it is probably a sub sample.

If that's what he means you said it in a way that makes sense.

[ronaldo7]

They polled 120 people in Scotland :hilarious

Whatever fits the narrative. 😆

Mair folk in the barbers.

[Keith_M]

Yes that's what I said, it is probably a sub sample.

If that's what he means you said it in a way that makes sense.


If the numbers polled in Scotland genuinely are as low as somebody suggested, then it's not too informative for us

I'd imagine the swing from Tory to Labour over the UK as a whole is fairly believable, though.

[Ozyhibby]

What gives some people the impression that all Scottish people want is a Labour govt? What about our recent voting pattern suggests this?


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[Paul1642]

I don’t think many of the hardcore pro independence voters would be put off voting yes no matter what sturgeon or any other SNP leader said or done. It’s people like me who are absolutely sick of the current Westminster lot yet aren’t convinced by the case for independence that they need to target.

I want realistic economic forecasts (I appreciate this one is tricky),Info on currency, If, how and when we would rejoin the EU, trade, how we would adjust our spending once we had full control, desired legalities changes that aren’t possible under Westminster, foreign policy, solution to potential border issues with England (and NI) if we did rejoin EU (see Ireland at the moment and tell me how we would avoid a worse situation).

There’s a sizeable percentage of would be No voters who would be willing to vote yes if they liked the answers, but a get Indy then figure it out approach isn’t good enough for me. I need a well throughout blueprint that I can understand.

Whether you agree or disagree with me, it’s people like me who are open to changing their mind if properly convinced that are going to decide the next referendum whenever that may be.

[Kato]

I take an interest in the future of Scotland, sorry about that. Probably like you and the others?We know what the future is. Cling onto the union and hope the English finance based economy keeps making money. Chuck in a bit managed decline as our population falls.

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[Skol]

We know what the future is. Cling onto the union and hope the English finance based economy keeps making money. Chuck in a bit managed decline as our population falls.

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That’s your view and you have a right to hold it. It’s complete made up tosh though.

[Ozyhibby]

That’s your view and you have a right to hold it. It’s complete made up tosh though.

What’s your view?


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[xyz23jc]

We know what the future is. Cling onto the union and hope the English finance based economy keeps making money. Chuck in a bit managed decline as our population falls.

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We know what the future is. Cling onto the union and hope the UK finance based economy keeps PRINTING money under the guise of ECONOMIC NECESSITY/QUANATATIVE EASING ETC. Chuck in a bit managed UNDERFUNDING OF BASIC STATUATORY HUMAN RIGHTS & SOCIAL OBLIGATIONS and watch as we decline as our population falls, all the while, WATCHING STUPIFIED open mouthed! :agree:

PS. MODIFIED THAT FOR YA!

[LewysGot2]

What gives some people the impression that all Scottish people want is a Labour govt? What about our recent voting pattern suggests this?


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That's an interesting question. Especially as there's a fair bit of rhetoric around an independent Scotland and folk "holding their nose" to vote SNP and being able to vote for other parties afterwards. I can't see how that would happen. It's more likely that folk would do here what folk did down south that wanted Brexit- they'd reward the vehicle at the next election.

We've also just seen the voting population move from Labour to SNP. Folk used to say you could put a red rosette on a chimp and it would get elected. Often wondered if voting patterns haven't changed all that much.

Be interesting to know if anyone voting SNP Green or Alba would vote differently post Scexit? Labour under Corbyn had a more progressive manifesto and were more left of centre than the SNP who are pretty centrist. So the appetite wasn't there in the last GE. 🤔

[Paul1642]

That's an interesting question. Especially as there's a fair bit of rhetoric around an independent Scotland and folk "holding their nose" to vote SNP and being able to vote for other parties afterwards. I can't see how that would happen. It's more likely that folk would do here what folk did down south that wanted Brexit- they'd reward the vehicle at the next election.

We've also just seen the voting population move from Labour to SNP. Folk used to say you could put a red rosette on a chimp and it would get elected. Often wondered if voting patterns haven't changed all that much.

Be interesting to know if anyone voting SNP Green or Alba would vote differently post Scexit? Labour under Corbyn had a more progressive manifesto and were more left of centre than the SNP who are pretty centrist. So the appetite wasn't there in the last GE. 🤔

I do wonder what will happen post Sturgeon. I feel like the party’s image and popularity is much more tied to its leader than any other party in living memory.

[James310]

We know what the future is. Cling onto the union and hope the UK finance based economy keeps PRINTING money under the guise of ECONOMIC NECESSITY/QUANATATIVE EASING ETC. Chuck in a bit managed UNDERFUNDING OF BASIC STATUATORY HUMAN RIGHTS & SOCIAL OBLIGATIONS and watch as we decline as our population falls, all the while, WATCHING STUPIFIED open mouthed! :agree:

PS. MODIFIED THAT FOR YA!

Having a Central Bank and being able to do things like quantative easing is a significant benefit, it paid for things like furlough and billions of pounds of free testing.

[LewysGot2]

I do wonder what will happen post Sturgeon. I feel like the party’s image and popularity is much more tied to its leader than any other party in living memory.

I think because of the circus down south folk have maybe lost sight of the lack of strength and depth in any party. The cult of personality is strong in UK wide and much of Western politics.

[The Modfather]

I don’t think many of the hardcore pro independence voters would be put off voting yes no matter what sturgeon or any other SNP leader said or done. It’s people like me who are absolutely sick of the current Westminster lot yet aren’t convinced by the case for independence that they need to target.

I want realistic economic forecasts (I appreciate this one is tricky),Info on currency, If, how and when we would rejoin the EU, trade, how we would adjust our spending once we had full control, desired legalities changes that aren’t possible under Westminster, foreign policy, solution to potential border issues with England (and NI) if we did rejoin EU (see Ireland at the moment and tell me how we would avoid a worse situation).

There’s a sizeable percentage of would be No voters who would be willing to vote yes if they liked the answers, but a get Indy then figure it out approach isn’t good enough for me. I need a well throughout blueprint that I can understand.

Whether you agree or disagree with me, it’s people like me who are open to changing their mind if properly convinced that are going to decide the next referendum whenever that may be.

All fair points and definitely food for thought for the yes campaign. Out of interest, what are you looking to hear from the No campaign? Surely there must also be a vision and plan put forward by the No side. They can’t campaign based solely on picking fault with independence and when that’s achieved it’s back to continuing on with how things are today post Brexit.

[Ozyhibby]

Having a Central Bank and being able to do things like quantative easing is a significant benefit, it paid for things like furlough and billions of pounds of free testing.

Paying for it now though with runaway inflation. We have yet to see how bad that gets.


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[xyz23jc]

Having a Central Bank and being able to do things like quantative easing is a significant benefit, it paid for things like furlough and billions of pounds of free testing.

I GIVE YOU, PRINTING MONEY UNDER THE GUISE OF... A CENTRAL BANK (SOVERIENGTY HAHA), TRILLIONS OF DEBT, ALL PAID FOR, not by GORDON BROWN, a SCOTSMAN & LABOUR, but the GULLIBLE UK TAXPAYER, waves Union Jack & MENTIONS PUTIN..Etc..Etc OLDESTY DEMOCRACY blah, blah, blah Glastonbury BBC JoWhiley#! :yawn:

[Stairway 2 7]

Paying for it now though with runaway inflation. We have yet to see how bad that gets.


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Yep obviously a huge cost to furlough, lockdown and testing but the hit was necessary. The estimates are inflation nearing 11 in autumn before massively dropping over the next 5 years

[James310]

Paying for it now though with runaway inflation. We have yet to see how bad that gets.


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It's not just like it's the UK suffering from inflation though is it. Spain has just hit a 37 year high for inflation, over 10% for first time since 1985.

[xyz23jc]

It's not just like it's the UK suffering from inflation though is it. Spain has just hit a 37 year high for inflation, over 10% for first time since 1985.

Only dead fish go with the flow! :agree::wink:

[Ozyhibby]

It's not just like it's the UK suffering from inflation though is it. Spain has just hit a 37 year high for inflation, over 10% for first time since 1985.

Spain has better economic growth though to help deal with it.


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[Kato]

Having a Central Bank and being able to do things like quantative easing is a significant benefit, it paid for things like furlough and billions of pounds of free testing.Nice. Seriously. You could have prudent management, regulation, fair diligent tax collection and a robust anti-fraud agency but maybe not in the context of how Westminster dishes out its cash.

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[James310]

Nice. Seriously. You could have prudent management, regulation, fair diligent tax collection and a robust anti-fraud agency but maybe not in the context of how Westminster dishes out its cash.

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It's widely recognised an Independent Scotland would need a Central Bank, I don't know anyone who is suggesting otherwise. Apologies if that's not what you are saying.

You need one if you want to join the EU for a start.

[StevieC]

Having a Central Bank and being able to do things like quantative easing is a significant benefit, it paid for things like furlough and billions of pounds of free testing.

I thought we had already got the ball rolling on that particular “project fear” line?

SNIB?

[James310]

I thought we had already got the ball rolling on that particular “project fear” line?

SNIB?

What's project fear about a fact?

SNIB isn't a bank and is nothing like a Central Bank.

"The Scottish National Investment Bank (‘the Bank’) is a development finance company established by the Scottish Government under the Scottish National Investment Bank Act 2020. The Bank is a public limited company, registered in Scotland with Company number SC677431 and is wholly owned by the Scottish Ministers. The Bank and its subsidiary companies are not authorised or regulated by the Prudential Regulatory Authority (PRA) or the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) and are not banking institutions and do not operate as such. This means that neither the Bank, nor its subsidiaries, accept deposits"

[He's here!]

All fair points and definitely food for thought for the yes campaign. Out of interest, what are you looking to hear from the No campaign? Surely there must also be a vision and plan put forward by the No side. They can’t campaign based solely on picking fault with independence and when that’s achieved it’s back to continuing on with how things are today post Brexit.

Presumably there will only be a No campaign if there's an independence referendum? If, as expected, the Supreme Court knocks back Sturgeon we're left with her 'General Election counts as a referendum' plan, which, if there's no snap election before then, could be well over two years away.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/everywoman61/status/1542453901986865157?t=ZvSydndEj8t9pAJ2-B01OQ&s=19

I'm reposting this as I expected more to be made of it, but then I suppose it got lost in maelstrom of tory resignations 😁

[StevieC]

What's project fear about a fact?

SNIB isn't a bank and is nothing like a Central Bank.

The project fear aspect is the suggestion that Scotland wouldn’t be able to set up a central bank. Part of the too wee, too stupid narrative.

The reality is that there is no reason why Scotland couldn’t set up a central bank (unless you can provide some insurmountable reason why they couldn’t?).

Clearly the SNIB isn’t a central bank, starting the ball rolling was simply pointing out that they have already started to create financial institutions (backed by the Scottish government and separate from the UK).

[James310]

The project fear aspect is the suggestion that Scotland wouldn’t be able to set up a central bank. Part of the too wee, too stupid narrative.

The reality is that there is no reason why Scotland couldn’t set up a central bank (unless you can provide some insurmountable reason why they couldn’t?).

Clearly the SNIB isn’t a central bank, starting the ball rolling was simply pointing out that they have already started to create financial institutions (backed by the Scottish government and separate from the UK).

Who said Scotland could not set up a Central Bank? Not me. I thought you were suggesting SNIB was akin to a Central Bank, apologies.

That too wee and too poor narrative is a John Swinney saying.

[Ozyhibby]

Presumably there will only be a No campaign if there's an independence referendum? If, as expected, the Supreme Court knocks back Sturgeon we're left with her 'General Election counts as a referendum' plan, which, if there's no snap election before then, could be well over two years away.

I’m no Lawyer but I don’t think the Supreme Court case is the slam dunk most think it will be. The Scotland act is pretty clear but with law, there are other laws which may also come into play such as the right of self determination etc.
There is also precedence. Last time Indy had a majority in parly, a s30 was granted.
I don’t think the de-facto GE will be what happens. I think that the Supreme Court will ask UK’s lawyers exactly what they think the criteria is for a referendum and things will move from there. I think by the end, the Supreme Court will rule that it’s in Westminsters power but they will concede a referendum anyway.
I doubt the UK lawyers stand up and say there can never be an indyref again. They will have to, by the end of this process put a mechanism in place. I think that is the goal here.


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[HNA11]

It's totally ridiculous that after posting a similar warning only yesterday I am having to do this again. However it seems the gentle approach simply isn't working with some posters.

To be clear any posts hounding other posters, attempting to mock or goad them when they aren't actively engaged in a conversation and repeatedly aiming the same jibes at them over and over again is not acceptable. It's even worse when there is a pack mentality to these actions. whether it is coordinated or not is neither here nor there, multiple posters engaging in a pile on is akin to bullying and has never and will never be acceptable on here.

If debates can't be carried out in a civil manner then threads will be closed. We are primarily a football forum yet a disproportionate amount of admin time is spent monitoring and policing this non football forum, often dealing with posters who rarely use the site for it's primary purpose of discussing Hibs and football.

To repeat what was said yesterday. Anyone engaging in any of the behaviours describe above will get no more friendly warnings on threads. The infraction system will be used and nothing, up to and including bans, is off the table. We are all adults here so try and act like it.

Thank you.

[DaveF]

Who is being hounded?

There are some very tender Tories if this level of debate is seen like anything described in the post above.

I'll skip this forum if this is how it's being run.

[The Modfather]

Who is being hounded?

There are some very tender Tories if this level of debate is seen like anything described in the post above.

I'll skip this forum if this is how it's being run.

To be fair there are some unconstructive and childish posts on the last page or two. Although I also don’t think some posters help themselves by responding to each and every post except ones that ask them anything about the here and now, even if it’s asked in a civil and constructive manner.

I’ll leave it there before I end up with a telling off from admin.

[He's here!]

Who is being hounded?

There are some very tender Tories if this level of debate is seen like anything described in the post above.

I'll skip this forum if this is how it's being run.

On the issue of independence in particular, I think it's fair to say that the majority of posters on here are fairly entrenched in their stance and rather than constructive debate the exchanges quickly become more of a circular argument which every so often becomes an ongoing spat between certain posters.

My own approach on here is to make my opinions clear but not get dragged into a time-consuming and ultimately fruitless tit for tat type exchange. Mind you, even that approach has attracted a couple of rather venomous PMs which I chose not to respond to or report...we're talking about a forum which on an average day attracts, at most, a couple of dozen Hibs fans with differing political viewpoints. Hardly something which is going to set the world to rights or to get too steamed up over.

[He's here!]

I’m no Lawyer but I don’t think the Supreme Court case is the slam dunk most think it will be. The Scotland act is pretty clear but with law, there are other laws which may also come into play such as the right of self determination etc.
There is also precedence. Last time Indy had a majority in parly, a s30 was granted.
I don’t think the de-facto GE will be what happens. I think that the Supreme Court will ask UK’s lawyers exactly what they think the criteria is for a referendum and things will move from there. I think by the end, the Supreme Court will rule that it’s in Westminsters power but they will concede a referendum anyway.
I doubt the UK lawyers stand up and say there can never be an indyref again. They will have to, by the end of this process put a mechanism in place. I think that is the goal here.


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You might be right, who knows? I'm just pointing out that at present we look to be a long way from anything that could be categorised as a No campaign, whereas the SNP is effectively an endless Yes campaign.

[ronaldo7]

You might be right, who knows? I'm just pointing out that at present we look to be a long way from anything that could be categorised as a No campaign, whereas the SNP is effectively an endless Yes campaign.

I'd argue that the British state is in a constant no campaign as evidenced by their, now is not the time stance, and refusal to sanction a section 30, after previously doing so in the same circumstances 10 years ago.

[Ozyhibby]

You might be right, who knows? I'm just pointing out that at present we look to be a long way from anything that could be categorised as a No campaign, whereas the SNP is effectively an endless Yes campaign.

Yip, that’s not wrong. There will be a campaign though because I’m certain it will happen. The ‘No’ campaign will be very interesting this time out, that’s for sure. The last 8 years has really devastated the amount of unionist politicians available to staff the campaign. They have a very small pool to pick from. I suspect they will also try to have separate Labour and Tory campaigns as well which could be problematic.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Who is being hounded?

There are some very tender Tories if this level of debate is seen like anything described in the post above.

I'll skip this forum if this is how it's being run.

There was an ongoing joke about going to the shop and getting the last lurpak at £9 which seems to have hit some nerves. If that's what Admins was referring to.

[Moulin Yarns]

Will the supreme Court take this into account???



“That this House endorses the principles of the Claim of Right for Scotland, agreed by the Scottish Constitutional Convention in 1989 and by the Scottish Parliament in 2012, and therefore acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs.”


What does it mean for an independent Scotland, governed by holyrood, not Westminster and Holyrood?

Does it just mean we get to vote for the government, wherever it sits?

Or does it mean that we get to choose which government we want to govern? Westminster or holyrood, or Westminster and Holyrood?

[James310]

I’m no Lawyer but I don’t think the Supreme Court case is the slam dunk most think it will be. The Scotland act is pretty clear but with law, there are other laws which may also come into play such as the right of self determination etc.
There is also precedence. Last time Indy had a majority in parly, a s30 was granted.
I don’t think the de-facto GE will be what happens. I think that the Supreme Court will ask UK’s lawyers exactly what they think the criteria is for a referendum and things will move from there. I think by the end, the Supreme Court will rule that it’s in Westminsters power but they will concede a referendum anyway.
I doubt the UK lawyers stand up and say there can never be an indyref again. They will have to, by the end of this process put a mechanism in place. I think that is the goal here.


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I reckon it's highly unlikely one of the first things a newly appointed PM will do is give a S30 to the Scottish Parliament.

We will probably get to the General Election and it will be interesting to see how the SNP and Greens manage campaigning on a single issue, I guess that means no manifesto and the answer to everything is Independence. Especially hard for the Greens who are supposed to be a party concerned about the environment yet will have nothing in it's manifesto about the environment.

I am second guessing how it will work, but if you are going to campaign on a single issue then I guess you have no other policies, otherwise you aren't campaigning on a single issue.

[Ozyhibby]

I reckon it's highly unlikely one of the first things a newly appointed PM will do is give a S30 to the Scottish Parliament.

We will probably get to the General Election and it will be interesting to see how the SNP and Greens manage campaigning on a single issue, I guess that means no manifesto and the answer to everything is Independence. Especially hard for the Greens who are supposed to be a party concerned about the environment yet will have nothing in it's manifesto about the environment.

I am second guessing how it will work, but if you are going to campaign on a single issue then I guess you have no other policies, otherwise you aren't campaigning on a single issue.

I don’t think we get that far. I think the UK govt is going to have to set out a procedure for achieving a s30 order before their lawyers go into the court. I doubt they send them in empty handed.


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[ronaldo7]

I reckon it's highly unlikely one of the first things a newly appointed PM will do is give a S30 to the Scottish Parliament.

We will probably get to the General Election and it will be interesting to see how the SNP and Greens manage campaigning on a single issue, I guess that means no manifesto and the answer to everything is Independence. Especially hard for the Greens who are supposed to be a party concerned about the environment yet will have nothing in it's manifesto about the environment.

I am second guessing how it will work, but if you are going to campaign on a single issue then I guess you have no other policies, otherwise you aren't campaigning on a single issue.

How did Johnson do it in 2019?

Get Brexit done. With some add ons?

I'm with Oz though, along with the claim of right, which will no doubt be brought to the fore by the SG.

[ronaldo7]

Northern Ireland economic output now at a 15 year high.

Just shows what you can do when still in the single market, and aligned one of the biggest trading blocks in the world.

[James310]

How did Johnson do it in 2019?

Get Brexit done. With some add ons?

I'm with Oz though, along with the claim of right, which will no doubt be brought to the fore by the SG.

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50524262


Brexit was a major factor but there was a 59 page manifesto with numerous policies. So not just a single issue.

Nicola Sturgeon seems to be suggesting it will be Independence only, if she produces a manifesto with numerous policies then it's not a single issue election.

Maybe she needs to be clearer what she actually means.

I will admit I know very little about the Claim of Right, but would ask why it has not been used before? What would the process entail?

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50524262


Brexit was a major factor but there was a 59 page manifesto with numerous policies. So not just a single issue.

Nicola Sturgeon seems to be suggesting it will be Independence only, if she produces a manifesto with numerous policies then it's not a single issue election.

Maybe she needs to be clearer what she actually means.

I will admit I know very little about the Claim of Right, but would ask why it has not been used before? What would the process entail?

At the risk of stating the obvious, the SNP manifesto will be very similar to previous manifestos with independence and all the other policies but, and this is just my guess, with the vision of a future independent Scotland to the fore.


The Claim of Right is what I've posted 3 times in the past 2 days, but it's been ignored so far. See my post today at 11:47



For information, the claim of right was debated and agreed at Westminster. I discovered that the minutes, as recorded in Hansard, for the debate had been deleted from the records but someone noticed and forced it to be reinstated. I wonder why, and by whom, it was removed just before the supreme Court sit to decide if Scotland can decide its own future????

[Moulin Yarns]

https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/scottish-independence-referendum-no-campaign-scotland-leaving-uk-1722576


So no single better together campaign.

[James310]

At the risk of stating the obvious, the SNP manifesto will be very similar to previous manifestos with independence and all the other policies but, and this is just my guess, with the vision of a future independent Scotland to the fore.


The Claim of Right is what I've posted 3 times in the past 2 days, but it's been ignored so far. See my post today at 11:47



For information, the claim of right was debated and agreed at Westminster. I discovered that the minutes, as recorded in Hansard, for the debate had been deleted from the records but someone noticed and forced it to be reinstated. I wonder why, and by whom, it was removed just before the supreme Court sit to decide if Scotland can decide its own future????

So exactly like all the other SNP manifestos then, since when was Independence not a feature of one. The fact we are "guessing" means it's not very clear.

I read it but still none the wiser what it is and what it means.

Who is "someone" in the context you refer? A random person or the street or someone else? Sounds like a conspiracy theory in all honesty.

[Ozyhibby]

https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/scottish-independence-referendum-no-campaign-scotland-leaving-uk-1722576


So no single better together campaign.

Interesting to see it start to be talked about now. That is a big change following Sturgeon’s announcement.


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[ronaldo7]

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50524262


Brexit was a major factor but there was a 59 page manifesto with numerous policies. So not just a single issue.

Nicola Sturgeon seems to be suggesting it will be Independence only, if she produces a manifesto with numerous policies then it's not a single issue election.

Maybe she needs to be clearer what she actually means.

I will admit I know very little about the Claim of Right, but would ask why it has not been used before? What would the process entail?

From what I can remember, getting Brexit done was the only issue. It'll be the same for us in 2024 if we ever get there.

I'm sure when we get there, if we do, we'll have a clear line to put to the people.

You only have to go back to 1989 to find out about the claim of right. It was used by the people to re-instate our Parliament.

[Moulin Yarns]

So exactly like all the other SNP manifestos then, since when was Independence not a feature of one. The fact we are "guessing" means it's not very clear.

I read it but still none the wiser what it is and what it means.

Who is "someone" in the context you refer? A random person or the street or someone else? Sounds like a conspiracy theory in all honesty.

https://twitter.com/everywoman61/status/1542453901986865157?t=UQeYVX-x7es7jUiUJAOlHA&s=19

Feel free to tell her she is just a random person in the street. She obviously has her head screwed on.

[Moulin Yarns]

From what I can remember, getting Brexit done was the only issue. It'll be the same for us in 2024 if we ever get there.

I'm sure when we get there, if we do, we'll have a clear line to put to the people.

You only have to go back to 1989 to find out about the claim of right. It was used by the people to re-instate our Parliament.

Reinstate the Westminster Parliament when Johnson tried to prorogue it 😂

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting to see it start to be talked about now. That is a big change following Sturgeon’s announcement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nice pic in that article: the 3 stooges emerge from hell. :greengrin

https://i.inews.co.uk/content/uploads/2022/07/SEI_113023658-760x541.jpg

[James310]

https://twitter.com/everywoman61/status/1542453901986865157?t=UQeYVX-x7es7jUiUJAOlHA&s=19

Feel free to tell her she is just a random person in the street. She obviously has her head screwed on.

I have no idea who Diana in Lithgae is, if you are basing an independence campaign on what she says then that's great.

[He's here!]

I'd argue that the British state is in a constant no campaign as evidenced by their, now is not the time stance, and refusal to sanction a section 30, after previously doing so in the same circumstances 10 years ago.

The issue of Scottish independence isn't the relentless drag on the UK government that it is on Scottish politics though, even if they're obliged to make some sort of response every time Sturgeon & co raise the volume.

I accept that for those who passionately believe independence is the way forward for Scotland, making maximum noise about it goes with the territory. However, for every Scottish voter who laps up everything Sturgeon proclaims about independence there's another who is sick to the back teeth of it. That, I think, can be easily overlooked due to the fact that, as I've already said, there's no truly sizeable organisation which provides a counterbalance to the SNP. Folk who remain content to be part of the UK don't tend to take to the streets en masse to proclaim that.

A way of illustrating how fed up No voters are with the way this issue has strangled Scottish politics for the best part of a decade might be to imagine that the result had gone the other way in 2014, yet in its immediate aftermath a new, heavily resourced party called something like Reunion had sprung up and lobbied incessantly for a fresh referendum to rejoin the UK. How much respect do we think the SNP would have accorded them? Accusations of a lack of respect for the result might just have been thrown their way...

Sure, whoever succeeds Boris Johnson is going to have to make a much better fist of showing an understanding of what's at stake in Scotland, but outrageous as it may seem to Yes voters the current stance that now is not the time for another referendum is one most No voters will endorse. Sturgeon's talk of material changes (Brexit) and fresh 'mandates' (cobbled together by bringing the heinous Scottish Greens on board) tend to wash over those same No voters who are yet to see her 'strong and consistent evidence' that voters are now in favour of independence.

[Moulin Yarns]

I have no idea who Diana in Lithgae is, if you are basing an independence campaign on what she says then that's great.

You are hard work today.

As a chief information officer who spotted that hansard had removed minutes of parliamentary business related to the Claim of Right, coincidentally before the supreme Court was about to consider exactly the subject of the minutes suggests to me, and presumably her, that someone in Westminster is worried about the court outcome.

It's not who she is or what she said that the case is based on, rather, it's the claim of right that has been used to overturn the prorogation and what it says that is important.

[Ozyhibby]

The issue of Scottish independence isn't the relentless drag on the UK government that it is on Scottish politics though, even if they're obliged to make some sort of response every time Sturgeon & co raise the volume.

I accept that for those who passionately believe independence is the way forward for Scotland, making maximum noise about it goes with the territory. However, for every Scottish voter who laps up everything Sturgeon proclaims about independence there's another who is sick to the back teeth of it. That, I think, can be easily overlooked due to the fact that, as I've already said, there's no truly sizeable organisation which provides a counterbalance to the SNP. Folk who remain content to be part of the UK don't tend to take to the streets en masse to proclaim that.

A way of illustrating how fed up No voters are with the way this issue has strangled Scottish politics for the best part of a decade might be to imagine that the result had gone the other way in 2014, yet in its immediate aftermath a new, heavily resourced party called something like Reunion had sprung up and lobbied incessantly for a fresh referendum to rejoin the UK. How much respect do we think the SNP would have accorded them? Accusations of a lack of respect for the result might just have been thrown their way...

Sure, whoever succeeds Boris Johnson is going to have to make a much better fist of showing an understanding of what's at stake in Scotland, but outrageous as it may seem to Yes voters the current stance that now is not the time for another referendum is one most No voters will endorse. Sturgeon's talk of material changes (Brexit) and fresh 'mandates' (cobbled together by bringing the heinous Scottish Greens on board) tend to wash over those same No voters who are yet to see her 'strong and consistent evidence' that voters are now in favour of independence.

I’m sure that ‘now is never the time’ is also something most No voters could get behind.


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[ronaldo7]

The issue of Scottish independence isn't the relentless drag on the UK government that it is on Scottish politics though, even if they're obliged to make some sort of response every time Sturgeon & co raise the volume.

I accept that for those who passionately believe independence is the way forward for Scotland, making maximum noise about it goes with the territory. However, for every Scottish voter who laps up everything Sturgeon proclaims about independence there's another who is sick to the back teeth of it. That, I think, can be easily overlooked due to the fact that, as I've already said, there's no truly sizeable organisation which provides a counterbalance to the SNP. Folk who remain content to be part of the UK don't tend to take to the streets en masse to proclaim that.

A way of illustrating how fed up No voters are with the way this issue has strangled Scottish politics for the best part of a decade might be to imagine that the result had gone the other way in 2014, yet in its immediate aftermath a new, heavily resourced party called something like Reunion had sprung up and lobbied incessantly for a fresh referendum to rejoin the UK. How much respect do we think the SNP would have accorded them? Accusations of a lack of respect for the result might just have been thrown their way...

Sure, whoever succeeds Boris Johnson is going to have to make a much better fist of showing an understanding of what's at stake in Scotland, but outrageous as it may seem to Yes voters the current stance that now is not the time for another referendum is one most No voters will endorse. Sturgeon's talk of material changes (Brexit) and fresh 'mandates' (cobbled together by bringing the heinous Scottish Greens on board) tend to wash over those same No voters who are yet to see her 'strong and consistent evidence' that voters are now in favour of independence.

Glasgow was teaming with no voters last week, others will be out tomorrow.

If a political party had sprung up from a yes vote, Im sure as democrats, if they succeeded in getting a mandate for a referendum to rejoin the rUK, we'd all accept that. Wouldn't we?


For relentless drag, read democracy.

[Bristolhibby]

The issue of Scottish independence isn't the relentless drag on the UK government that it is on Scottish politics though, even if they're obliged to make some sort of response every time Sturgeon & co raise the volume.

I accept that for those who passionately believe independence is the way forward for Scotland, making maximum noise about it goes with the territory. However, for every Scottish voter who laps up everything Sturgeon proclaims about independence there's another who is sick to the back teeth of it. That, I think, can be easily overlooked due to the fact that, as I've already said, there's no truly sizeable organisation which provides a counterbalance to the SNP. Folk who remain content to be part of the UK don't tend to take to the streets en masse to proclaim that.

A way of illustrating how fed up No voters are with the way this issue has strangled Scottish politics for the best part of a decade might be to imagine that the result had gone the other way in 2014, yet in its immediate aftermath a new, heavily resourced party called something like Reunion had sprung up and lobbied incessantly for a fresh referendum to rejoin the UK. How much respect do we think the SNP would have accorded them? Accusations of a lack of respect for the result might just have been thrown their way...

Sure, whoever succeeds Boris Johnson is going to have to make a much better fist of showing an understanding of what's at stake in Scotland, but outrageous as it may seem to Yes voters the current stance that now is not the time for another referendum is one most No voters will endorse. Sturgeon's talk of material changes (Brexit) and fresh 'mandates' (cobbled together by bringing the heinous Scottish Greens on board) tend to wash over those same No voters who are yet to see her 'strong and consistent evidence' that voters are now in favour of independence.

I guess the real rub (and we won’t know until we test it) are how many of the (and I’ll use the 2014 term) “shy no’s” have jumped ship to Yes?

They were the block that got away from the Yes campaign and will be vital in securing independence.

Has all this nonsense with Brexit and the Tories in Westminster enough to move them to try something different?

My uncle being a key one. If he’s changed position, it’s in the bag.

J

[degenerated]

The issue of Scottish independence isn't the relentless drag on the UK government that it is on Scottish politics though, even if they're obliged to make some sort of response every time Sturgeon & co raise the volume.

I accept that for those who passionately believe independence is the way forward for Scotland, making maximum noise about it goes with the territory. However, for every Scottish voter who laps up everything Sturgeon proclaims about independence there's another who is sick to the back teeth of it. That, I think, can be easily overlooked due to the fact that, as I've already said, there's no truly sizeable organisation which provides a counterbalance to the SNP. Folk who remain content to be part of the UK don't tend to take to the streets en masse to proclaim that.

A way of illustrating how fed up No voters are with the way this issue has strangled Scottish politics for the best part of a decade might be to imagine that the result had gone the other way in 2014, yet in its immediate aftermath a new, heavily resourced party called something like Reunion had sprung up and lobbied incessantly for a fresh referendum to rejoin the UK. How much respect do we think the SNP would have accorded them? Accusations of a lack of respect for the result might just have been thrown their way...

Sure, whoever succeeds Boris Johnson is going to have to make a much better fist of showing an understanding of what's at stake in Scotland, but outrageous as it may seem to Yes voters the current stance that now is not the time for another referendum is one most No voters will endorse. Sturgeon's talk of material changes (Brexit) and fresh 'mandates' (cobbled together by bringing the heinous Scottish Greens on board) tend to wash over those same No voters who are yet to see her 'strong and consistent evidence' that voters are now in favour of independence.I'm sure I asked the other day if there was any precedent for countries and colonies securing their independence from Britain and asking to return.

[The Tubs]

The issue of Scottish independence isn't the relentless drag on the UK government that it is on Scottish politics though, even if they're obliged to make some sort of response every time Sturgeon & co raise the volume.

What's their excuse for failing the UK?

[grunt]

Sturgeon's talk of material changes (Brexit) and fresh 'mandates' (cobbled together by bringing the heinous Scottish Greens on board) tend to wash over those same No voters who are yet to see her 'strong and consistent evidence' that voters are now in favour of independence.
Are you suggesting that Brexit is NOT a material change from 2014? Feels pretty material to me.

[James310]

I'm sure I asked the other day if there was any precedent for countries and colonies securing their independence from Britain and asking to return.

How many were part of the UK? I can think of Ireland 100 years ago, no more.

Are you thinking Scottish Independence is like say Botswana Independence from the UK empire in 1966? I see very little similarities myself.

[ronaldo7]

How many were part of the UK? I can think of Ireland 100 years ago, no more.

Are you thinking Scottish Independence is like say Botswana Independence from the UK empire in 1966? I see very little similarities myself.

100% Strike rate for those who were in the UK. Sounds good to me. 😊

[Moulin Yarns]

How many were part of the UK? I can think of Ireland 100 years ago, no more.

Are you thinking Scottish Independence is like say Botswana Independence from the UK empire in 1966? I see very little similarities myself.

https://www.worldatlas.com/amp/articles/former-british-colonies.html

Some pretty big hitters in the list of 84 former British territories there. Here's hoping Scotland can be like Bermuda, Barbados or Hong-Kong, if for nothing else than their favourable climate 😉

[grunt]

How many were part of the UK? I can think of Ireland 100 years ago, no more.

That's a very interesting reply, which made me think quite a bit, so thank you for posting.

Looking at the list of countries which have gained independence, it seems that many of them have indeed gained independence from the UK. It seems that the UK collected countries a lot in olden days, and recent history has seen much of that reversed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_that_have_gained_independence_fr om_the_United_Kingdom

[Stairway 2 7]

That's a very interesting reply, which made me think quite a bit, so thank you for posting.

Looking at the list of countries which have gained independence, it seems that many of them have indeed gained independence from the UK. It seems that the UK collected countries a lot in olden days, and recent history has seen much of that reversed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_that_have_gained_independence_fr om_the_United_Kingdom

That says none were a part of the uk.

[James310]

That's a very interesting reply, which made me think quite a bit, so thank you for posting.

Looking at the list of countries which have gained independence, it seems that many of them have indeed gained independence from the UK. It seems that the UK collected countries a lot in olden days, and recent history has seen much of that reversed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_that_have_gained_independence_fr om_the_United_Kingdom

You are welcome, how many were part of the UK? From your list I see one.

[grunt]

That says none were a part of the uk.
I think you're splitting hairs, and I understand why. For me, the description below is enough. There can be no disputing that they have gained independence from UK rule?


Below are lists of the countries and territories formerly ruled or administered by the United Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) or part of the British Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire) (including military occupations that did not retain the pre-war central government), with their independence days (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Day). Some countries did not gain their independence on a single date, therefore the latest day of independence is shown with a break down of dates further down. A total of 65 countries have claimed their independence.

[James310]

https://www.worldatlas.com/amp/articles/former-british-colonies.html

Some pretty big hitters in the list of 84 former British territories there. Here's hoping Scotland can be like Bermuda, Barbados or Hong-Kong, if for nothing else than their favourable climate ��

Again, only one was part of the UK. Scotland is not a colony, here is a SNP MSPs take on that, I would agree with him. Shame he suffered such abuse from his own side.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-msp-faces-online-abuse-23379754

[grunt]

You are welcome, how many were part of the UK? From your list I see one.Why does this make a difference to you? Is there something magical about being part of the UK that means countries cannot gain independence?

Why do you wish to distinguish "part of the UK" from "subject to UK rule"?

[James310]

Why does this make a difference to you? Is there something magical about being part of the UK that means countries cannot gain independence?

You see no difference between a country in Africa getting Independence and a country that is physically part of the UK and shares borders and currency and various other cross UK institutions. If you want to think it's the same thing carry on, we can disagree.

[lapsedhibee]

Why does this make a difference to you? Is there something magical about being part of the UK that means countries cannot gain independence?

Why do you wish to distinguish "part of the UK" from "subject to UK rule"?

Presumably because unlike those other, subjugated, countries Scotland is part of a voluntary union which it can leave at any time? :dunno:

[Moulin Yarns]

Why does this make a difference to you? Is there something magical about being part of the UK that means countries cannot gain independence?

Why do you wish to distinguish "part of the UK" from "subject to UK rule"?

You don't need to bother asking that question!!


Just accept that former colonial rule had nothing to do with former great Britain. 🙄

[James310]

I am really surprised the SNP party don't campaign on this theme, Botswana got Independence so too can Scotland then, it's really similar.

Maybe there is a reason they have never done so.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/barbados-becomes-a-republic/#:~:text=A%20referendum%20on%20becoming%20a,as%20i ts%20head%20of%20state.


How to become a Republic, in one easy lesson. 😉


I wonder why they weren't refused permission from London?

[grunt]

I am really surprised the SNP party don't campaign on this theme, Botswana got Independence so too can Scotland then, it's really similar.

Maybe there is a reason they have never done so.You're funny.


https://www.yes.scot/the-evidence-is-overwhelming-independence-works/

[Stairway 2 7]

Are people saying Scotland is a colony. Or is it that there is similarities to nations with some links to one's that are completely linked it most aspects of life, including physical border, parliament, military and central bank.

[grunt]

You see no difference between a country in Africa getting Independence and a country that is physically part of the UK and shares borders and currency and various other cross UK institutions. If you want to think it's the same thing carry on, we can disagree.
I suppose I'm trying to understand the principle of why you think it's ok for some countries to gain independence from UK rule, but not others? The things you mention - currency, borders, etc - can all be dealt with if the will is there.

[James310]

I suppose I'm trying to understand the principle of why you think it's ok for some countries to gain independence from UK rule, but not others? The things you mention - currency, borders, etc - can all be dealt with if the will is there.

I supported the referendum 8 years ago, so not sure the claim I support some and not others is true. We had our say on Independence and I fully supported that at the time.

[James310]

You're funny.


https://www.yes.scot/the-evidence-is-overwhelming-independence-works/

Only Ireland 100 years ago is the country she mentions that was on that list. Denmark, Norway etc were never part of the UK or colonies of the UK as far as I know.

Sure make comparisons to Norway etc but I think the general gist was comparisons to ex colonies.

[Moulin Yarns]

I supported the referendum 8 years ago, so not sure the claim I support some and not others is true. We had our say on Independence and I fully supported that at the time.

And democracy doesn't work like that. It doesn't stop once you vote otherwise parliament is a single vote and you are stuck with it.

Glad you cleared that up!

[Moulin Yarns]

Only Ireland 100 years ago is the country she mentions that was on that list. Denmark, Norway etc were never part of the UK or colonies of the UK as far as I know.

Sure make comparisons to Norway etc but I think the general gist was comparisons to ex colonies.

I choose Barbados!

[grunt]

I suppose I'm trying to understand the principle of why you think it's ok for some countries to gain independence from UK rule, but not others? The things you mention - currency, borders, etc - can all be dealt with if the will is there.


I supported the referendum 8 years ago, so not sure the claim I support some and not others is true. We had our say on Independence and I fully supported that at the time.
I don't think you've answered my question?

[James310]

I don't think you've answered my question?

I did, you just never liked the answer.

[He's here!]

Are people saying Scotland is a colony. Or is it that there is similarities to nations with some links to one's that are completely linked it most aspects of life, including physical border, parliament, military and central bank.

I'm assuming you have to have been colonised to be a colony?

Only the more extreme indy factions would give credence to such nonsense.

[Moulin Yarns]

I supported the referendum 8 years ago, so not sure the claim I support some and not others is true. We had our say on Independence and I fully supported that at the time.

Can you explain what has changed that you don't support a referendum in 2023 but did in 2014?

[Just Alf]

I'm sure I asked the other day if there was any precedent for countries and colonies securing their independence from Britain and asking to return.I see the 'discussion' has been morphed into whether Scotland is a colony etc... all very neatly side stepping answering your original post that started the whole discussion off.

Wonder how many there were.

In fact open it up, how many from any country want to rejoin the organisation they left? Might be an American state or so in the mix but that's largely like countries wanting to join the EU. (Except in those US cases they have to give up a whole lot more sovereignty than if they joined the EU!)

[James310]

Can you explain what has changed that you don't support a referendum in 2023 but did in 2014?

I was happy Scotland had a say on its future, we did. We had that say in the biggest democratic exercise in our history. Pretty simple really.

That's about it.

[Moulin Yarns]

I was happy Scotland had a say on its future, we did. We had that say in the biggest democratic exercise in our history. Pretty simple really.

That's about it.

Right, so basically just because you have changed your mind nobody else is allowed to!

There it is, the Democratic deficit in a single post.

All those other countries that left the British empire did so, on the whole, without the say of their Lords and masters in London but because Scotland asked it is told you've had your chance, now shut up and take it lying down!

[James310]

Right, so basically just because you have changed your mind nobody else is allowed to!

There it is, the Democratic deficit in a single post.

All those other countries that left the British empire did so, on the whole, without the say of their Lords and masters in London but because Scotland asked it is told you've had your chance, now shut up and take it lying down!

Wow, calm down there.

I never said anyone else can change their minds, you asked for my view. If support shoots up then it's inevitable it will happen. At the moment that's not happening.

All this Lords and Masters in London chat is hilarious, just makes me laugh as only the nationalists think like that.

If only you thought like me you would see the truth! That's kind of what you are saying.

[weecounty hibby]

I was happy Scotland had a say on its future, we did. We had that say in the biggest democratic exercise in our history. Pretty simple really.

That's about it.

Please stop saying that we had democracy once but we're not allowed to have it again! Can you not see how silly that sounds? We've had elections since then and time after time the party who has at its heart the push for Scottish independence, has it as a manifesto pledge as well, keep on winning. Democracy moves on and isn't a one time thing. If it was we could still have Whigs in power. When we become independent and a party stand on a rejoin the UK platform and win an election, guess what, we can have another referendum. Democracy. But has been pointed out it is incredibly unusual for any country anywhere that has gained independence to ever go back

[Glory Lurker]

Good Guys, we need to win the arguments that the Bad Guys want to have with us head on. Deflective analogies won't shift a vote.

[James310]

Please stop saying that we had democracy once but we're not allowed to have it again! Can you not see how silly that sounds? We've had elections since then and time after time the party who has at its heart the push for Scottish independence, has it as a manifesto pledge as well, keep on winning. Democracy moves on and isn't a one time thing. If it was we could still have Whigs in power. When we become independent and a party stand on a rejoin the UK platform and win an election, guess what, we can have another referendum. Democracy. But has been pointed out it is incredibly unusual for any country anywhere that has gained independence to ever go back

Sorry my answers don't tally with your way of thinking, as explained I see a difference between referendums and elections.

[weecounty hibby]

Sorry my answers don't tally with your way of thinking, as explained I see a difference between referendums and elections.

So are you saying that referendums aren't democracy? Can you tell us how Scotland could get itself out of the union even if we could show that 100% of the country wanted it. Sounds as though its nit voluntary and not equal

[Ozyhibby]

So are you saying that referendums aren't democracy? Can you tell us how Scotland could get itself out of the union even if we could show that 100% of the country wanted it. Sounds as though its nit voluntary and not equal

I suspect the UK govt lawyers will have to explain that to the Supreme Court soon.


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[The Modfather]

Sorry my answers don't tally with your way of thinking, as explained I see a difference between referendums and elections.

If a party was to put their head above the parapet and put in their manifesto to hold a referendum on re-joining the EU now that we know what Brexit looks like and it’s impact, and if that party or parties made a majority government world you still be of the opinion we’ve already had our say on Brexit and be against another referendum?

[Bristolhibby]

Again, only one was part of the UK. Scotland is not a colony, here is a SNP MSPs take on that, I would agree with him. Shame he suffered such abuse from his own side.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-msp-faces-online-abuse-23379754

The British Empire was great at making up administrative titles to give (and more importantly restrict) “native” rights.

Crown territory
Crown dependency
Colony
Crown Colony
Chartered company (East India Company & Hudson Bay Company)
Free State
Protectorate
Dominion
The Commonwealth

There can be no doubt, Scotland was the first “colony” or protectorate, or whatever you want to call it if the English Empire.

That then morphed as Scotland became the integral part of the United Kingdom, assimilated if you will. Again, no denying England was the dominant partner in terms of culture, policy and creating the concept of “Britishness”.

J

[James310]

So are you saying that referendums aren't democracy? Can you tell us how Scotland could get itself out of the union even if we could show that 100% of the country wanted it. Sounds as though its nit voluntary and not equal

I never said that, where did I say referendums are not democracy? I said the opposite in that the referendum of 2014 was the biggest democratic exercise in our history. Go back and check.

If 100% of people wanted it then we would see the SNP getting 100% vote share and polls all showing 100% for Yes, in this circumstances I think everyone would agree a referendum should happen.

[James310]

The British Empire was great at making up administrative titles to give (and more importantly restrict) “native” rights.

Crown territory
Crown dependency
Colony
Crown Colony
Chartered company (East India Company & Hudson Bay Company)
Free State
Protectorate
Dominion
The Commonwealth

There can be no debate, Scotland was the first “colony” or protectorate, or whatever you want to call it if the English Empire.

We then became the integral part of the United Kingdom, assimilated if you will. Again, no denying England was the dominant partner in terms of culture, policy and creating the concept of “Britishness”.

J

If you want to call Scotland a colony and think it helps Independence that's great. I don't agree though and I am sure many pro Indy people agree with me as well.

[weecounty hibby]

I never said that, where did I say referendums are not democracy? I said the opposite in that the referendum of 2014 was the biggest democratic exercise in our history. Go back and check.

If 100% of people wanted it then we would see the SNP getting 100% vote share and polls all showing 100% for Yes, in this circumstances I think everyone would agree a referendum should happen.

I know what you called it, but you have also said that you don't want to allow it again. You didn't answer the question which was how would Scotland get out of the union if it wanted to? Forget vote share % etc just a straight forward answer to whether Scotland can or can't get out of the union if it so desired. And if the answer is by asking for Westminster permission then that is indeed a colony. Collins dictionary defines a colony as "a country that is controlled by a more powerful country" not my definition, not my words but it would seem to fit.

[Stairway 2 7]

There's been 7 PMs in my life one born in Edinburgh and another Kirkcaldy. We had a vote in the last decade and we chose to stay as a group.

There has to be a mechanism for Independence though. I think brexit is a big enough change to warrant a referendum. But there should normally be a decent time in between them or we could be in out in. If things get tough post independence do we have a vote to rejoin, although I don't think it will

[Bristolhibby]

If you want to call Scotland a colony and think it helps Independence that's great. I don't agree though and I am sure many pro Indy people agree with me as well.

A cultural colony, an act of complicit assimilation.

But if the word colony offends what would we use to describe the act of being absorbed?

Anschluss?

J

[James310]

I know what you called it, but you have also said that you don't want to allow it again. You didn't answer the question which was how would Scotland get out of the union if it wanted to? Forget vote share % etc just a straight forward answer to whether Scotland can or can't get out of the union if it so desired. And if the answer is by asking for Westminster permission then that is indeed a colony. Collins dictionary defines a colony as "a country that is controlled by a more powerful country" not my definition, not my words but it would seem to fit.

You certainly like putting words into my mouth, when did I say I would not allow it again, it's not up to me. You asked for my opinion and I gave it.

I will happily repeat myself again when I say I will take Nicola Sturgeons advice. How does the statement below tally up with me saying I would not allow one again?!

In a speech in October 2015, Nicola Sturgeon said we should pursue a second independence referendum only if there is "strong and consistent evidence that people have changed their minds and that independence has become the choice of a clear majority in this country".

I don't think that has happened.

As I say I don't buy all this colony chat, but if you think that's the case then I will disagree.

[lapsedhibee]

If 100% of people wanted it then we would see the SNP getting 100% vote share and polls all showing 100% for Yes, in this circumstances I think everyone would agree a referendum should happen.
Yes let's wait till 100% agree. That seems reasonable.

[Bristolhibby]

There's been 7 PMs in my life one born in Edinburgh and another Kirkcaldy. We had a vote in the last decade and we chose to stay as a group.

There has to be a mechanism for Independence though. I think brexit is a big enough change to warrant a referendum. But there should normally be a decent time in between them or we could be in out in. If things get tough post independence do we have a vote to rejoin, although I don't think it will

Agreed, a Union where you cannot leave is not a union. I guess the forefathers had no comprehension that at least half of Scotland would want to leave the U.K. at some point. That and for nations built on Bureaucracy we have an awful habit of leaving the important things unwritten. Constitution for example, also how to get a PM out of Number 10 who simply refuses to leave.

J

[James310]

Yes let's wait till 100% agree. That seems reasonable.

Lol, I was asked that question. Not something I suggested.

[cabbageandribs1875]

something to look forward to for our grandkids etc

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/291019761_159799479900599_4519807068652978352_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=eXDy73fF43gAX9djnhG&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT_S_4nEmu8uwZlAGBDQICBXZrI0xNyZ8sv6YqAOqxxF-A&oe=62CC8A3C

[Stairway 2 7]

something to look forward to for our grandkids etc

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/291019761_159799479900599_4519807068652978352_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=eXDy73fF43gAX9djnhG&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT_S_4nEmu8uwZlAGBDQICBXZrI0xNyZ8sv6YqAOqxxF-A&oe=62CC8A3C

Lovely austerity here we come, rishi will be happy

[cabbageandribs1875]

Lovely austerity here we come, rishi will be happy



and auld Gogs Broon will be getting dragged out of his Cryogenic Chamber to tell everyone we're better sharing all Englands debt together

[The Tubs]

Agreed, a Union where you cannot leave is not a union. I guess the forefathers had no comprehension that at least half of Scotland would want to leave the U.K. at some point. That and for nations built on Bureaucracy we have an awful habit of leaving the important things unwritten. Constitution for example, also how to get a PM out of Number 10 who simply refuses to leave.

J

They had no idea the plebs would have a say. They would probably have preferred the end of humanity. The union was created before the US declaration of independence and their constitution.

[Keith_M]

This thread has really gone downhill.

Mostly by a small, obsessive handful of posters


:rolleyes:

[weecounty hibby]

This thread has really gone downhill.

Mostly by a small, obsessive handful of posters


:rolleyes:

I can only apologise 😔

[Callum_62]

Now she said tonight that there would have top be some material change, not just the passage of time before she would countenance putting out a promise in the manifesto for that early referendum.

"She gave the example of Britain quitting the European Union against Scottish opinion - but that is scheduled for 2017. She has to take a decision on that manifesto in 2016.

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[Keith_M]

I can only apologise 😔


You're not quite who I had in mind.... but apology accepted :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

So to summarise the current situation of how
Scotland can democratically gain independence:

1. By electing a pro-independence government to Holyrood whose pre-election manifesto promised another referendum? Our survey says......XXX

2. The democratically elected Scottish Government requesting a S30 order from Westminster? Our survey says......XXX

We are rapidly running out of democratic options, if all avenues are closed to a democratic solution, that leaves a very dangerous vacuum.

[Moulin Yarns]

something to look forward to for our grandkids etc

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/291019761_159799479900599_4519807068652978352_n.jp g?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=eXDy73fF43gAX9djnhG&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT_S_4nEmu8uwZlAGBDQICBXZrI0xNyZ8sv6YqAOqxxF-A&oe=62CC8A3C

An interesting article about a different kind of economy

https://commonweal.scot/its-time-for-a-new-kind-of-economy/


Apart from the Tories every party is represented by Common Weal. I would like to see the YES campaign run along similar lines to it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Anecdotal evidence from my better half that the tide is turning.


Had a local customer in, she voted yes in 2014, her English husband, son and Czech daughter inlaw believed the lies and voted no. Now all 4 yes. As she said, they can't be the only family like that.

[ronaldo7]

An interesting article about a different kind of economy

https://commonweal.scot/its-time-for-a-new-kind-of-economy/


Apart from the Tories every party is represented by Common Weal. I would like to see the YES campaign run along similar lines to it.

Different kind of economy you say. 🙈

Tories won't be discussing that any time soon.

[Ozyhibby]

Tom Tugenhat first out the block with denial of an indyref. He’s not getting into hypotheticals even though it’s not hypothetical. Moron.


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[ronaldo7]

Tom Tugenhat first out the block with denial of an indyref. He’s not getting into hypotheticals even though it’s not hypothetical. Moron.


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I think the Labour party of Sir keir starmer was first this week.

Hunt, and Javid, saying another 10 years.

We're down the proverbial cul-de-sac, having been blocked for a while now.

They all claim to know what Scotland wants without actually living here, and having a limited amount of MPs.

Tugenhat also said the union is voluntary, but you need a section 30 to leave, and you're not getting one. That's tory/labour democracy for you.

[He's here!]

Starmer: Labour government would block independence referendum for ever

https://www.scotsman.com/

[James310]

At the risk of stating the obvious, the SNP manifesto will be very similar to previous manifestos with independence and all the other policies but, and this is just my guess, with the vision of a future independent Scotland to the fore.


The Claim of Right is what I've posted 3 times in the past 2 days, but it's been ignored so far. See my post today at 11:47



For information, the claim of right was debated and agreed at Westminster. I discovered that the minutes, as recorded in Hansard, for the debate had been deleted from the records but someone noticed and forced it to be reinstated. I wonder why, and by whom, it was removed just before the supreme Court sit to decide if Scotland can decide its own future????

I saw this about the Claim of Right, same thing you are talking about?

https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1545908178831003648?t=MNK1AZMHerftczjzlIYsfA&s=19


"Stand alone tweet, in an effort to avoid having to repeat myself ad infinitum.

The Claim of Right 1689 contains nothing that assists in the move for independence.

If you disagree, reply here specifying the clause you contend works, & we can discuss."

So looks like a dead end. Apparently it's also extremely anti Catholic and bigoted.

[grunt]

Apparently it's also extremely anti Catholic and bigoted.
It was written in 1689, after William of Orange had invaded. Did you expect it to have clauses about Twitter and mobile phones?

[ronaldo7]

I saw this about the Claim of Right, same thing you are talking about?

https://twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1545908178831003648?t=MNK1AZMHerftczjzlIYsfA&s=19


"Stand alone tweet, in an effort to avoid having to repeat myself ad infinitum.

The Claim of Right 1689 contains nothing that assists in the move for independence.

If you disagree, reply here specifying the clause you contend works, & we can discuss."

So looks like a dead end. Apparently it's also extremely anti Catholic and bigoted.

A wee update since then.

In 2018, in the house of commons, a motion was passed without division, that asserted the claim of right.

The motion read as follows: That this house endorses the principles of the claim of right for Scotland, agreed by the Scottish constitutional convention in 1989, and by the Scottish Parliament in 2012, and therefore acknowledges the sovereign right of the Scottish people to determine the form of government best suited to their needs.

Quite simple really.

[Moulin Yarns]

The claim of right, 1989 and 2012 as agreed by both the Scottish Constitutional Convention and the Scottish Parliament.

As debated in Westminster on 4th July 2018


Sorry about the very long read. But read the opening motion then scroll down to the very last bit.


https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-07-04/debates/18070455000001/ClaimOfRightForScotland

Link to the final resolution for ease

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-07-04/debates/18070455000001/ClaimOfRightForScotland#contribution-1C713E64-029A-409C-B6C4-2B05983458BE

Edit
I see Ronaldo has posted the motion

Edit 2, looks like our learned friend is referring to the original and not the current claim of right 😂

[weecounty hibby]

Starmer: Labour government would block independence referendum for ever

https://www.scotsman.com/

As I posted before, a colony then. Go and look at the d
ictionary definition of a colony and sadly that is exactly where Scotland is right now. No route to even being asked the question about independence never mind actually starting tye process if becoming an independent country. Sad that Labour are just pretty much parroting everything the Tories say on pretty much every subject. And that is why the Tories will get elected again, may as well just vote full on Tory than the pretend version that Starmer has turned Labour into. Brexit, happy to keep going. Striking low paid workers, dont support them. All this from the party with 1, one, MP in Scotland and who were claiming a success in the local elections because it wasnt as bad as last time!! Self awareness is sadly lacking.

[Ozyhibby]

Essentially it comes down to ‘are Scottish people allowed a say on independence or not’. If you think not then you will always be able to find an reason for denying democracy.


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[James310]

Who to believe? The Dean of the Faculty of Advocates and a QC or Hibs.net.

[Ozyhibby]

Who to believe? The Dean of the Faculty of Advocates and a QC or Hibs.net.

I don’t really care what the legal situation is. You are making all the arguments for the union about its ability to prevent Scotland choosing. It may be able to do that for now but eventually I have faith the democracy will prevail and laws will have to change.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Who to believe? The Dean of the Faculty of Advocates and a QC or Hibs.net.

Or what was debated and agreed to in the house of commons?

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-62113321?at_custom2=twitter&at_campaign=64&at_custom3=%40BBCScotlandNews&at_custom4=98E3934A-0048-11ED-B2C5-846396E8478F&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_medium=custom7

10 years. 40 years. They just keep throwing out numbers.
I hope they give their lawyers in the court case a better idea, rather than send them in with that.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220710/cb7683c5189e4e1764e3daf421168db8.jpg

This the way we want Scotland to go?


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[Just_Jimmy]

Who to believe? The Dean of the Faculty of Advocates and a QC or Hibs.net.You were the kid at school that ran away with your ball cos the other kids were better eh?

I'm neither pro or against indy but I am very much against one country being told what to do by another. Especially when they're supposed to be equal partners in a union.

I very much think this will be their downfall... the old Scottish attitude of "oh you think you're telling us what to do do you?"

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[Hibrandenburg]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220710/cb7683c5189e4e1764e3daf421168db8.jpg

This the way we want Scotland to go?


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That's the way with fascism, they keep having to outdo each other in a grotesque downward spiral caused by the need to find new imaginary causes of all our woes. They have no need to win your heads and hearts, all they have to do is to convince you there's a bogey man and only they and you can see him.

[Moulin Yarns]

This thread has really gone downhill.

Mostly by a small, obsessive handful of posters


:rolleyes:

About to start again. 🤔

[James310]

You were the kid at school that ran away with your ball cos the other kids were better eh?

I'm neither pro or against indy but I am very much against one country being told what to do by another. Especially when they're supposed to be equal partners in a union.

I very much think this will be their downfall... the old Scottish attitude of "oh you think you're telling us what to do do you?"

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I am not understanding, who is better than who?

As I said and I know you and others don't like it but I don't feel that way, I don't look at the English or whoever as my masters and bowing down to them etc, it's embarrassing nonsense. I know it's a comfortable little box for nationalist to put non believers in but it doesn't wash with me or the majority of people.

Maybe you are going to be proven correct and we will now see an upsurge in support for independence, if we do then let's have another referendum.

[Just_Jimmy]

I am not understanding, who is better than who?

As I said and I know you and others don't like it but I don't feel that way, I don't look at the English or whoever as my masters and bowing down to them etc, it's embarrassing nonsense. I know it's a comfortable little box for nationalist to put non believers in but it doesn't wash with me or the majority of people.

Maybe you are going to be proven correct and we will now see an upsurge in support for independence, if we do then let's have another referendum.

It's the attitude that a Tory politician unelected by Scotland, can sit in Westminster and deny a pro indy scottish parliament a referendum. If you're all so sure that you're on the right side of the debate let's have the debate in public and we'll vote at the end...

But no... it's our ball is the attitude.

I don't particularly want independence, I said that. I'm not against it either, I do have an issue with some unelected tory prime minister, because that's what we'll have in a few weeks... telling scotland what they can and can't decide on their own future. 0.15% of UK voting public will decide the next prime minister, the policy and the direction of the country and we won't be getting an election to decide their legitimacy or otherwise for 2 years. Is that democracy?

I don't look at the English as my master either, I live in England. It should never ever be down to one country to dictate when another country can decide self determination. If that's every 10 years, once in a generation or every 6 months and I suspect a court will support that view when it gets tested.

Anyway that aside, I admire the fact you keep fighting your corner despite being in the minority on this board. I don't think we'll ever agree on the fact the Scottish government should be able to call referendums how often they like as long as they win elections on a pro indy mandate... so I'll bow out for now.



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[grunt]

Anyone who thought that Johnson going (if and when he goes) would be damaging to the Independence cause can rest easy.

It seems that all the contenders are even more bat**** crazy than he was.

We have got to get out of this union.

[Since90+2]

I am not understanding, who is better than who?

As I said and I know you and others don't like it but I don't feel that way, I don't look at the English or whoever as my masters and bowing down to them etc, it's embarrassing nonsense. I know it's a comfortable little box for nationalist to put non believers in but it doesn't wash with me or the majority of people.

Maybe you are going to be proven correct and we will now see an upsurge in support for independence, if we do then let's have another referendum.

Your argument falls down immediately when you consider Scotland overwhelmingly voted to remain in the EU but as England voted leave almost all of the Scottish population lost their EU citizenship. The English electorate decided the outcome for the people of Scotland.

If that's not the definition of a country telling another what to do then I really don't know what is.

[James310]

Your argument falls down immediately when you consider Scotland overwhelmingly voted to remain in the EU but as England voted leave almost all of the Scottish population lost their EU citizenship. The English electorate decided the outcome for the people of Scotland.

If that's not the definition of a country telling another what to do then I really don't know what is.

Doesn't your argument fall down when we voted as the UK? On the paper you ticked did it say Scotland should Remain or Leave the EU? Or did it say the UK? Now if you answer you will say the UK, as that's a fact and you can't deny that. So unfortunately the UK left.

We voted in 2014 to remain in the UK, we voted in 2016 as the UK.

Cue incoming.....

Also you were happy to leave the EU in 2014 with a No vote.

[Since90+2]

Doesn't your argument fall down when we voted as the UK? On the paper you ticked did it say Scotland should Remain or Leave the EU? Or did it say the UK? Now if you answer you will say the UK, as that's a fact and you can't deny that. So unfortunately the UK left.

We voted in 2014 to remain in the UK, we voted in 2016 as the UK.

Cue incoming.....

Also you were happy to leave the EU in 2014 with a No vote.

It only falls down if you don't see Scotland as a country, which you clearly don't, but it most definitely is.

Scotland and it's population voted to remain EU citizens. England voted to leave and a fundamental fabric of the Scottish populations rights were lost because of that decision.

I'm pretty sure that you know that, but you'll never admit it because if you do your argument falls to bits.

[James310]

It only falls down if you don't see Scotland as a country, which you clearly don't, but it most definitely is.

Scotland and it's population voted to remain EU citizens. England voted to leave and a fundamental fabric of the Scottish populations rights was lost because of that decision.

I'm pretty sure that you know that, but you'll never admit it because if you your argument falls to bits. Which it has.

Not sure that comes into it, we voted to remain in the UK, that's a fact and nobody will deny that. The referendum you voted in had should the UK leave or remain the EU, not Scotland. Again a fact nobody can deny. I will stick to the facts.

[Since90+2]

Not sure that comes into it, we voted to remain in the UK, that's a fact and nobody will deny that. The referendum you voted in had should the UK leave or remain the EU, not Scotland. Again a fact nobody can deny. I will stick to the facts.

Scotland voted to remain. England voted to leave, therefore the people of Scotland are no longer EU citizens because of the wishes of voters in England. That is an undeniable fact.

If you like facts, you'll like them.

[James310]

Scotland voted to remain. England voted to leave, therefore the people of Scotland are no longer EU citizens because of the wishes of voters in England. That is an undeniable fact.

If you like facts, you'll like them.

I agree, but that's not on the basis we voted is it, we knew we were voting as the UK, the UK we had just voted to remain in. You can't change the rules after the result because you didn't like it.

We will just go around in circles here.

[Since90+2]

I agree, but that's not on the basis we voted is it, we knew we were voting as the UK, the UK we had just voted to remain in. You can't change the rules after the result because you didn't like it.

We will just go around in circles here.

You could have just said the first two words and left the rest out.

Scotland is out of the EU because of voters south of the border. You may not like that being said as it destroys your argument, but it's the truth.

[lapsedhibee]

I agree, but that's not on the basis we voted is it, we knew we were voting as the UK, the UK we had just voted to remain in. You can't change the rules after the result because you didn't like it.


I distinctly remember checking before I went into the booth, because I didn't want to make a mistake under pressure, and just vote for what was the best outcome. I reminded myself, sternly, that I was voting as the UK, and not as an individual at all.

[Ozyhibby]

I’m pretty sure the SG asked before the referendum for the result only to be honoured if all four nations voted for it. This was turned down by London. They wanted to make sure that the wishes of English voters were what mattered.


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[grunt]

I agree, but that's not on the basis we voted is it, we knew we were voting as the UK, the UK we had just voted to remain in. You can't change the rules after the result because you didn't like it.
I know you're a details guy, so you won't mind me reminding you that prior to the 2016 referendum Salmond asked to amend the guidance to require a Leave vote from all four constituent parts of the Union. We were told that would not be necessary as the referendum was advisory in nature.

So they lied to us then, and they're lying to us now.

Which is why we need out.

[grunt]

I’m pretty sure the SG asked before the referendum for the result only to be honoured if all four nations voted for it. This was turned down by London. They wanted to make sure that the wishes of English voters were what mattered.
Sorry didn't see this when I posted the same thing.

[He's here!]

I know you're a details guy, so you won't mind me reminding you that prior to the 2016 referendum Salmond asked to amend the guidance to require a Leave vote from all four constituent parts of the Union. We were told that would not be necessary as the referendum was advisory in nature.

So they lied to us then, and they're lying to us now.

Which is why we need out.

Did he really do that? I've no recollection of it. Plenty of bombast about Scotland potentially being 'dragged out of he EU against its will' but that's all I recall. Happy to be proved wrong but I still wouldn't agree with him. As with general elections we vote as one UK. It would be like insisting all constituencies/council areas in Scotland vote yes before independence was granted.

[Ozyhibby]

Did he really do that? I've no recollection of it. Plenty of bombast about Scotland potentially being 'dragged out of he EU against its will' but that's all I recall. Happy to be proved wrong but I still wouldn't agree with him. As with general elections we vote as one UK. It would be like insisting all constituencies/council areas in Scotland vote yes before independence was granted.

We didn’t leave as one UK though, did we? NI is still in the SM and CU?
Some parts of our union of equals gets listened to more than others.


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[grunt]

Did he really do that? I've no recollection of it.

https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/972239717281554432?s=21&t=LEsWC8WEguY3OH1Ec4SKBg

[He's here!]

It only falls down if you don't see Scotland as a country, which you clearly don't, but it most definitely is.

Scotland and it's population voted to remain EU citizens. England voted to leave and a fundamental fabric of the Scottish populations rights were lost because of that decision.

I'm pretty sure that you know that, but you'll never admit it because if you do your argument falls to bits.

Scotland didn't have its own membership of the EU though. It was the UK which was the member hence the vote as one UK.

[He's here!]

https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/972239717281554432?s=21&t=LEsWC8WEguY3OH1Ec4SKBg

Cheers. Don't remember that being a big deal but having watched the clip I agree with Lidington.

[Kato]

You can't change the rules after the result because you didn't like it.

We will just go around in circles here.

You can change the rules.

The UK signed an agreement with the EU to allow NI to stay in. Although they voted to stay in and the UK voted to leave, the rules were changed for them. Saying that the UK is actively seeking to break that agreement so they can change the rules again and bring NI out.

The reasons for this constitutional hokey-cokey are beyond me but it shows the situation is in a state of flux, despite being "done", and that we might as well chuck an arm and leg around.

I agree it's going round in circles but that seems to be what it's all about. Brexit that is.



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[wee_cooper]

Did he really do that? I've no recollection of it. Plenty of bombast about Scotland potentially being 'dragged out of he EU against its will' but that's all I recall. Happy to be proved wrong but I still wouldn't agree with him. As with general elections we vote as one UK. It would be like insisting all constituencies/council areas in Scotland vote yes before independence was granted.

It was passed as SNP policy at a conference in Perth in 2014(after the indyref). Salmond had stood down at that point but the resolution was unanimously voted through.

[grunt]

Cheers. Don't remember that being a big deal but having watched the clip I agree with Lidington.

Of course you do. Except it wasn't advisory, was it, because the Govt decided to be bound by the result? So he was lying.

[Skol]

So when Scotland next votes on independence will all parts have to vote yes for an overall yes outcome?

[Ozyhibby]

So when Scotland next votes on independence will all parts have to vote yes for an overall yes outcome?

I’d say nations are slightly different from local authority areas. Which is why NI is still in the SM and CU.


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[Since90+2]

I’d say nations are slightly different from local authority areas. Which is why NI is still in the SM and CU.


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It seems supporters of the Union essentially see Scotland as an area in that union as opposed to being a country.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1546376012572811264?s=21&t=vjEOl9G1UqAt-xYklfGO3Q

20% cut to Scotland’s NHS anyone?


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[Jack]

https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1546376012572811264?s=21&t=vjEOl9G1UqAt-xYklfGO3Q

20% cut to Scotland’s NHS anyone?


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A 20% cut to Scotland's NHS. A 20% cut to Scotland's total budget I'd assume. And a 20% cut on what Westminster spends on Scotland's behalf. When GERS is published do we think there will be a 20% cut in the alleged deficit?

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcdouglasf/status/1546402492338081793?s=21&t=vjEOl9G1UqAt-xYklfGO3Q

Even the BBC pointing out the madness of it.


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[ronaldo7]

You can change the rules.

The UK signed an agreement with the EU to allow NI to stay in. Although they voted to stay in and the UK voted to leave, the rules were changed for them. Saying that the UK is actively seeking to break that agreement so they can change the rules again and bring NI out.

The reasons for this constitutional hokey-cokey are beyond me but it shows the situation is in a state of flux, despite being "done", and that we might as well chuck an arm and leg around.

I agree it's going round in circles but that seems to be what it's all about. Brexit that is.



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Unfortunately for us in Scotland. They change the rules to suit their own benefits in England.

The devolution settlement which the Tories were never in favour of, has been changed time and again.

It'll be interesting if an argument will be put up against your NI situation. I'd doubt it.

[grunt]

The reasons for this constitutional hokey-cokey are beyond me but it shows the situation is in a state of flux, despite being "done", and that we might as well chuck an arm and leg around.

Three incompatible Tory Brexit promises. You can't keep all three promises, and any promise not met will upset someone.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCfFkpnXMAoxds_?format=jpg&name=large

[He's here!]

Of course you do. Except it wasn't advisory, was it, because the Govt decided to be bound by the result? So he was lying.

Might be wrong, but aren't all referendums in the UK 'advisory'? And if so, when has a government decided not to be bound by the result? The potential public uproar which would have ensued had David Cameron said after the Brexit vote that he wasn't legally obliged to honour it presumably 'advised' his thinking. Ditto had the 2014 Scottish independence referendum result gone the other way.

I've never been convinced by the 'dragged out of Europe' line as a particularly strong argument for independence. It didn't carry any clout when Sturgeon thought it was her trump card back in 2017, yet the SNP ended up losing a third of their seats at the general election. Sure, the fact that Brexit's aftermath remains as chaotic as the near four-year battle to 'get it done', means it's a card the SNP will continue to play but really, how genuinely outraged were most Scottish voters after the 2016 result? I was stunned, no question, that the leave side won, but not appalled in the way I was when Trump got elected US President the same year. It also seems to get overlooked that there was a not insignificant minority of voters in Scotland (not far off 40%) who voted leave. Considering that the yes vote for Scottish independence in 2014 was just under 45% you could argue that some significant minorities carry more clout with the Scottish Government than others.

[Smartie]

Might be wrong, but aren't all referendums in the UK 'advisory'? And if so, when has a government decided not to be bound by the result? The potential public uproar which would have ensued had David Cameron said after the Brexit vote that he wasn't legally obliged to honour it presumably 'advised' his thinking. Ditto had the 2014 Scottish independence referendum result gone the other way.

I've never been convinced by the 'dragged out of Europe' line as a particularly strong argument for independence. It didn't carry any clout when Sturgeon thought it was her trump card back in 2017, yet the SNP ended up losing a third of their seats at the general election. Sure, the fact that Brexit's aftermath remains as chaotic as the near four-year battle to 'get it done', means it's a card the SNP will continue to play but really, how genuinely outraged were most Scottish voters after the 2016 result? I was stunned, no question, that the leave side won, but not appalled in the way I was when Trump got elected US President the same year. It also seems to get overlooked that there was a not insignificant minority of voters in Scotland (not far off 40%) who voted leave. Considering that the yes vote for Scottish independence in 2014 was just under 45% you could argue that some significant minorities carry more clout with the Scottish Government than others.

I don't think "dragged out of Europe" is as valid as the nuanced take that Brexit undermines the legitimacy of the last referendum.

What were the main grounds for debate? Currency was huge and the SNP didn't convince enough people that they had suitable answers on that. EU membership was another though - "the only way to guarantee EU membership is to remain part of the union" etc. People will have been strongly persuaded by that reasonable argument, only for it to be out the window a short time later.

[Skol]

It seems supporters of the Union essentially see Scotland as an area in that union as opposed to being a country.

This reply just shows the pointless nature of any debate. This started by Independence supporters wanting Scotland being treated as a region of the UK for the Brexit vote. When I point out that this is not how the SNP would hold an Independence vote, its turned round to be me looking at Scotland as a region of the UK. That is not in any way what I said.

[degenerated]

I don't think "dragged out of Europe" is as valid as the nuanced take that Brexit undermines the legitimacy of the last referendum.

What were the main grounds for debate? Currency was huge and the SNP didn't convince enough people that they had suitable answers on that. EU membership was another though - "the only way to guarantee EU membership is to remain part of the union" etc. People will have been strongly persuaded by that reasonable argument, only for it to be out the window a short time later.Introducing EVEL the day after being asked to vote No and lead then country is another. Scottish MPs effectively locked out of debates and votes on things that ultimately affect how much of our money we get back for public services.

[WeeRussell]

Might be wrong, but aren't all referendums in the UK 'advisory'? And if so, when has a government decided not to be bound by the result? The potential public uproar which would have ensued had David Cameron said after the Brexit vote that he wasn't legally obliged to honour it presumably 'advised' his thinking. Ditto had the 2014 Scottish independence referendum result gone the other way.

I've never been convinced by the 'dragged out of Europe' line as a particularly strong argument for independence. It didn't carry any clout when Sturgeon thought it was her trump card back in 2017, yet the SNP ended up losing a third of their seats at the general election. Sure, the fact that Brexit's aftermath remains as chaotic as the near four-year battle to 'get it done', means it's a card the SNP will continue to play but really, how genuinely outraged were most Scottish voters after the 2016 result? I was stunned, no question, that the leave side won, but not appalled in the way I was when Trump got elected US President the same year. It also seems to get overlooked that there was a not insignificant minority of voters in Scotland (not far off 40%) who voted leave. Considering that the yes vote for Scottish independence in 2014 was just under 45% you could argue that some significant minorities carry more clout with the Scottish Government than others.

If you don’t think Brexit is a legitimate case for Scottish people wanting independence then there aren’t many reasons you will accept, which I’ll give you and quite believe.

You must be having a laugh if you’re trying to tell us you don’t think a significant amount of people who voted no/remainers weren’t outraged at the lies they were fed across both campaigns though. Only anecdotal but the first person I spoke to when the brexit result came through was a co-worker who announced she was sorry and wanted Nicola Sturgeon to give her another chance. Absolutely no doubt that plenty remainers in Scotland were upset/outraged/disgusted at the ongoing Brexit saga.

Trump getting elected was a mental one too, arguably more predictable when the polls opened, albeit irrelevant. But I said at the time people of our ‘country’ would be capable of doing the same thing. We’ve pretty much already proved it. If you’re more annoyed at what the U.S people vote for that’s entirely your right, but I think more Scottish people are concerned at the tragic state of politics in this country, and in particular the incompetent, self-serving, entitled, right-wing, charlatan *******s that dominate it.

[Ozyhibby]

Might be wrong, but aren't all referendums in the UK 'advisory'? And if so, when has a government decided not to be bound by the result? The potential public uproar which would have ensued had David Cameron said after the Brexit vote that he wasn't legally obliged to honour it presumably 'advised' his thinking. Ditto had the 2014 Scottish independence referendum result gone the other way.

I've never been convinced by the 'dragged out of Europe' line as a particularly strong argument for independence. It didn't carry any clout when Sturgeon thought it was her trump card back in 2017, yet the SNP ended up losing a third of their seats at the general election. Sure, the fact that Brexit's aftermath remains as chaotic as the near four-year battle to 'get it done', means it's a card the SNP will continue to play but really, how genuinely outraged were most Scottish voters after the 2016 result? I was stunned, no question, that the leave side won, but not appalled in the way I was when Trump got elected US President the same year. It also seems to get overlooked that there was a not insignificant minority of voters in Scotland (not far off 40%) who voted leave. Considering that the yes vote for Scottish independence in 2014 was just under 45% you could argue that some significant minorities carry more clout with the Scottish Government than others.

You’ll never be convinced of any argument that leads to independence. There is a large block of voters in the middle who can be convinced though.


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[grunt]

I've never been convinced by the 'dragged out of Europe' line as a particularly strong argument for independence.
Obviously I can't speak for you, but for me personally the Brexit vote had a huge impact on my thinking on independence. I DO feel that I was dragged out of Europe against my will, and what makes it worse it was for the flimsiest reasons many of which were clearly and blatantly outright lies. I think there were enormous benefits - both to me as an individual and for the country as a whole - in being part of the EU, none of which have been remotely mitigated by events since. So it's a huge issue for me.

And not only Brexit, but I think Brexit is a signifier of the direction of travel of this Tory Government. We are heading towards major austerity, huge cuts to our social services and NHS, and a culture of "everyone for themselves". There will be a growing gulf between those who have money and power and those who don't. That's not at all the kind of country I want to live in.

[Steven79]

Obviously I can't speak for you, but for me personally the Brexit vote had a huge impact on my thinking on independence. I DO feel that I was dragged out of Europe against my will, and what makes it worse it was for the flimsiest reasons many of which were clearly and blatantly outright lies. I think there were enormous benefits - both to me as an individual and for the country as a whole - in being part of the EU, none of which have been remotely mitigated by events since. So it's a huge issue for me.

And not only Brexit, but I think Brexit is a signifier of the direction of travel of this Tory Government. We are heading towards major austerity, huge cuts to our social services and NHS, and a culture of "everyone for themselves". There will be a growing gulf between those who have money and power and those who don't. That's not at all the kind of country I want to live in.

Exactly!

How many people would have voted back yes back in 2014 if they knew what going to happen on the back of a no vote.

The UK they voted to remain in dosen't exist anymore and Scotland needs to get off the sinking ship...

[Kato]

This reply just shows the pointless nature of any debate. This started by Independence supporters wanting Scotland being treated as a region of the UK for the Brexit vote. When I point out that this is not how the SNP would hold an Independence vote, its turned round to be me looking at Scotland as a region of the UK. That is not in any way what I said.It's started as treating Scotland as a nation within the UK, not as a region.

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[James310]

Obviously I can't speak for you, but for me personally the Brexit vote had a huge impact on my thinking on independence. I DO feel that I was dragged out of Europe against my will, and what makes it worse it was for the flimsiest reasons many of which were clearly and blatantly outright lies. I think there were enormous benefits - both to me as an individual and for the country as a whole - in being part of the EU, none of which have been remotely mitigated by events since. So it's a huge issue for me.

And not only Brexit, but I think Brexit is a signifier of the direction of travel of this Tory Government. We are heading towards major austerity, huge cuts to our social services and NHS, and a culture of "everyone for themselves". There will be a growing gulf between those who have money and power and those who don't. That's not at all the kind of country I want to live in.

But you were happy to vote Yes in 2014 and leave the EU? On the basis you thought Scotland would apply to join as soon as it was Independent, but still comfortable to leave the EU.

Austerity may or may not be coming but under the SNP Growth Commission plan it's definitely coming, if that is still the blueprint, who knows these days.

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/13072

But I guess it would be "our austerity" so that's better.

[Steven79]

It's started as treating Scotland as a nation within the UK, not as a region.

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What always gets me is when English MP's talking the UK as a "Country" then talk about "Up North" as Manchester or Leeds.

[He's here!]

Obviously I can't speak for you, but for me personally the Brexit vote had a huge impact on my thinking on independence. I DO feel that I was dragged out of Europe against my will, and what makes it worse it was for the flimsiest reasons many of which were clearly and blatantly outright lies. I think there were enormous benefits - both to me as an individual and for the country as a whole - in being part of the EU, none of which have been remotely mitigated by events since. So it's a huge issue for me.

And not only Brexit, but I think Brexit is a signifier of the direction of travel of this Tory Government. We are heading towards major austerity, huge cuts to our social services and NHS, and a culture of "everyone for themselves". There will be a growing gulf between those who have money and power and those who don't. That's not at all the kind of country I want to live in.

If that's the way you felt than fair enough, I respect that. Until the Brexit vote, though, I was just never under the impression that UK voters were especially invested in us being EU members. The European Parliamentary elections here used to be tacked on to local council elections, turnout was rarely much more than 30% and I'd imagine most would have been unable to name their MEP. The final European Parliamentary elections to be held in the UK saw UKIP emerge victorious (including, IIRC, an MEP in Scotland) which indicated that those voters eager to leave the EU were significantly more invested in the elections that those who were (pre-Brexit) largely indifferent.

As I said, Brexit strikes me as a useful tool for the SNP but, bearing in mind that a significant faction of its members voted leave, I remain sceptical about the rhetoric they deploy around it.

[Since90+2]

If that's the way you felt than fair enough, I respect that. Until the Brexit vote, though, I was just never under the impression that UK voters were especially invested in us being EU members. The European Parliamentary elections here used to be tacked on to local council elections, turnout was rarely much more than 30% and I'd imagine most would have been unable to name their MEP. The final European Parliamentary elections to be held in the UK saw UKIP emerge victorious (including, IIRC, an MEP in Scotland) which indicated that those voters eager to leave the EU were significantly more invested in the elections that those who were (pre-Brexit) largely indifferent.

As I said, Brexit strikes me as a useful tool for the SNP but, bearing in mind that a significant faction of its members voted leave, I remain sceptical about the rhetoric they deploy around it.

I don't think you can compare folk not bothering to vote in EU elections against actually losing their actual EU citizenship and the benefits that come with it.

It's a lazy argument to say you didn't vote in the elections don't complain if you have your citizenship stripped.Remember after all, we were told in 2014 the only way to keep that citizenship was to vote no.

Brexit isn't a "tool", it's the removal of people's rights by a right wing government in Westminster dictated by voters in England. It's absolutely fundamental and shows the democratic unbalance of the Union.

[Moulin Yarns]

I(including, IIRC, an MEP in Scotland) .

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Coburn_(politician)#:~:text=David%20Adam%20C oburn%20(born%2011,July%202014%20until%20December% 202018.

This upstanding character 🙄

[grunt]

But you were happy to vote Yes in 2014 and leave the EU? On the basis you thought Scotland would apply to join as soon as it was Independent, but still comfortable to leave the EU.
I voted No in 2014. To my eternal, bitter regret. I won't make that mistake again.

[grunt]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Coburn_(politician)#:~:text=David%20Adam%20C oburn%20(born%2011,July%202014%20until%20December% 202018.

This upstanding character 🙄https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Coburn_(politician)

[Steven79]

I voted No in 2014. To my eternal, bitter regret. I won't make that mistake again.

Many peope since 2014 feel the same way I think more than a few woke up the day after and felt regret and like you they won't make the same mistake again.

I could see why many were in the situation where the heart said yes but the head said no due to worries about things like EU Membership, currency and pensions.

We have a chance to leave a better Scotland for the younger generations and those to come and we have to get over the line this time.

[ronaldo7]

But you were happy to vote Yes in 2014 and leave the EU? On the basis you thought Scotland would apply to join as soon as it was Independent, but still comfortable to leave the EU.

Austerity may or may not be coming but under the SNP Growth Commission plan it's definitely coming, if that is still the blueprint, who knows these days.

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/13072

But I guess it would be "our austerity" so that's better.

Austerity has been here since 2010, courtesy of your party along with the lib dems.

[James310]

Austerity has been here since 2010, courtesy of your party along with the lib dems.

So Austerity with Independence and Austerity without, what a choice.

[Ozyhibby]

So Austerity with Independence and Austerity without, what a choice.

Might as well take the independence when you put it like that.


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[Since90+2]

So Austerity with Independence and Austerity without, what a choice.

May aswell take the austerity then with a chance to rejoin the EU than austerity and not.

[The Modfather]

So Austerity with Independence and Austerity without, what a choice.

Short term there will be a hit whether we stay or go. Mid-long term there looks to be a more positive future direction than the the path the UK is on IMO. Independence won’t be a Utopia but it will be a more positive progressive direction, again IMO.

[grunt]

So Austerity with Independence and Austerity without, what a choice.That's not the choice, though, is it? There are many other factors to be taken into account. Control of our own destiny is an important one, I think. There's even a handy 3 word slogan already in place, "Take Back Control". I'll have some of that.

[ronaldo7]

So Austerity with Independence and Austerity without, what a choice.

:faf:

We don't have the choice currently, and have Austerity. Time to break free. Welcome aboard. :aok:

[Hibrandenburg]

So Austerity with Independence and Austerity without, what a choice.

Cutbacks and savings for Scotland's or the UK's benefit, :hmmm: let me have a think about that.

[James310]

:faf:

We don't have the choice currently, and have Austerity. Time to break free. Welcome aboard. :aok:

I don't see it like that, at the moment austerity is guaranteed with Independence. The Growth Commission and joining the EU with its excessive debt procedure, while it's all speculation in terms UK austerity.

So you want to break free for guaranteed austerity. No thanks.

[James310]

That's not the choice, though, is it? There are many other factors to be taken into account. Control of our own destiny is an important one, I think. There's even a handy 3 word slogan already in place, "Take Back Control". I'll have some of that.

Indeed Take Back Control was a favourite Nigel Farage saying. Could easily apply to Scottish Independence.

Nigel Farage also said the people of the UK are best placed to make decisions about the future of the UK. Nicola Sturgeon said the people of Scotland are best placed to make decisions about the future of Scotland.

Lots of similar comparisons. But it will be worth it in the end, like the Brexiteers say.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't see it like that, at the moment austerity is guaranteed with Independence. The Growth Commission and joining the EU with its excessive debt procedure, while it's all speculation in terms UK austerity.

So you want to break free for guaranteed austerity. No thanks.

It’s not speculation. The govt are telling us that austerity is on the way.


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[James310]

Cutbacks and savings for Scotland's or the UK's benefit, :hmmm: let me have a think about that.

This is one aspect of nationalism I dislike, caring and sympathy ends for some at the border. It proves nationalism and socialism or "progressive" politics can't exist side by side.

Who cares about struggling families in Darlington, as long as families in Dundee are ok.

[ronaldo7]

I don't see it like that, at the moment austerity is guaranteed with Independence. The Growth Commission and joining the EU with its excessive debt procedure, while it's all speculation in terms UK austerity.

So you want to break free for guaranteed austerity. No thanks.

This is the Office for budget responsibility.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/07/uk-unsustainable-debt-set-to-reach-320-of-gdp-in-50-years-obr-warns

The Office for Budget Responsibility said that if economic shocks continue to hit the public finances, debt is on course to reach almost 320% of annual national income (GDP) in 50 years’ time – up from 96% now – unless successive governments raise revenues to offset rising costs.

Good luck with that. :aok:

[James310]

It’s not speculation. The govt are telling us that austerity is on the way.


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I have noticed a significant change in the realisation that Independence won't be the land of utopia I think some in the past have claimed. In the past if I had posted that an Independent Scotland would face austerity there would have been claims of lies or project fear. It's good to see some realism these days.

[Kato]

I don't see it like that, at the moment austerity is guaranteed with Independence. The Growth Commission and joining the EU with its excessive debt procedure, while it's all speculation in terms UK austerity.

So you want to break free for guaranteed austerity. No thanks.You think ordinary people are going to thrive in the UK with s Tory govt? It's austerity all the way even when there is a boom.

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[ronaldo7]

This was Alisdair Darling in 2014, saying we've already had 6 years of Austerity. Still counting Alisdair.

A fourth factor is austerity, which rankles in a country where the real political fight is between the Scottish National party and Labour, and where there is only one Conservative MP. Darling accepts that this is a factor helping the yes camp. "There have been six years of austerity and people are looking for an escape. They think that with independence we won't have any of these problems."

Westminster-dictated austerity will continue even if Ed Miliband emerges victorious in next year's UK general election. Pat Rafferty, general secretary of the Unite union in Scotland, says: "Better Together shouldn't underestimate how people are looking ahead to the 2015 election and thinking that even if Labour wins the austerity will go on."

[Kato]

This is one aspect of nationalism I dislike, caring and sympathy ends for some at the border. It proves nationalism and socialism or "progressive" politics can't exist side by side.

Who cares about struggling families in Darlington, as long as families in Dundee are ok.So where does the ever increasing aspect of English Nationalism fit in the UK?

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[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1546556757845184512?s=21&t=HSLLGZ63TGo4tEufDZ-Edg

The UK is about to lurch even further to the right.


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[Skol]

It's started as treating Scotland as a nation within the UK, not as a region.

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Look at my comment again and look at the reply. I raised the difference in approach snp except between brexit and independence.

It isn’t possible to have any meaningful debate without someone taking it down the predictable route.

[James310]

So where does the ever increasing aspect of English Nationalism fit in the UK?

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It fits in badly, all nationalism should be frowned upon.

Any group that defines itself by national identity is automatically alienating anyone that doesn't share the same sense of nationhood.

I don't really want to turn this into a what does nationalism mean discussion. Point I was making was if you call yourself progressive and a socialist why does that seemingly end at the border.

[The Tubs]

I don't see it like that, at the moment austerity is guaranteed with Independence. The Growth Commission and joining the EU with its excessive debt procedure, while it's all speculation in terms UK austerity.

So you want to break free for guaranteed austerity. No thanks.

Your opinion of the EDP is more speculative than that of UK austerity.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1546556757845184512?s=21&t=HSLLGZ63TGo4tEufDZ-Edg

The UK is about to lurch even further to the right.


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How's that? What is it she has said that makes you think that? Not a trick question, as I haven't read all the different proposals. Would you not say that about all the candidates?

[The Tubs]

It fits in badly, all nationalism should be frowned upon.

Any group that defines itself by national identity is automatically alienating anyone that doesn't share the same sense of nationhood.

I don't really want to turn this into a what does nationalism mean discussion. Point I was making was if you call yourself progressive and a socialist why does that seemingly end at the border.

To me, Scottish independence is a question of subsidiarity. It may well give the English a jolt so that they will have a look at their own democracy. I actually see it as a win-win.

[Since90+2]

I have noticed a significant change in the realisation that Independence won't be the land of utopia I think some in the past have claimed. In the past if I had posted that an Independent Scotland would face austerity there would have been claims of lies or project fear. It's good to see some realism these days.

I agree.

People can make a balanced and reasoned choice, do we want austerity and Westminster or austerity but with the prospect of a fairer and better society for our kids and grandkids.

I absolutely believe people in Scotland will see that and make their own choice.

[Hibrandenburg]

This is one aspect of nationalism I dislike, caring and sympathy ends for some at the border. It proves nationalism and socialism or "progressive" politics can't exist side by side.

Who cares about struggling families in Darlington, as long as families in Dundee are ok.

Who cares about struggling families in Darlington, Liverpool, Glasgow or Dundee as long as families in the Home Counties are OK? That is the current status quo, you say you dislike nationalism but you're happy to turn a blind eye to British nationalism which most people in Scotland find repugnant.

You're all over any SNP or Independence threads but I don't think I've seen you on the Tories or Labour threads. That speaks volumes and sums up the no side nicely, happy to dish out negativity about independence but unable to defend the current status quo.

[7 Up]

This is one aspect of nationalism I dislike, caring and sympathy ends for some at the border. It proves nationalism and socialism or "progressive" politics can't exist side by side.

Who cares about struggling families in Darlington, as long as families in Dundee are ok.

That's a fair enough analysis as far as it goes, but unionists rarely make similar criticisms of the United Kingdom as it actually exists. Brexit Britain can hardly be said to be a country that exemplifies caring and altruistic internationalism.

[WeeRussell]

Until the Brexit vote, though, I was just never under the impression that UK voters were especially invested in us being EU members.

I agree. I think the benefits were taken for granted by many of us. I for one never expected the state of affairs to get that bad that Cameron would trigger such a referendum and the far right would be able to appeal to so many racists that we’d even be discussing it now.

But it happened. It all happened very quickly. A lot of lies were told, and here we are. In an even worse situation with an even worse bunch of corrupt tory ****bags.

And yet some still mock Scottish people for wanting away from all this.

[James310]

Who cares about struggling families in Darlington, Liverpool, Glasgow or Dundee as long as families in the Home Counties are OK? That is the current status quo, you say you dislike nationalism but you're happy to turn a blind eye to British nationalism which most people in Scotland find repugnant.

You're all over any SNP or Independence threads but I don't think I've seen you on the Tories or Labour threads. That speaks volumes and sums up the no side nicely, happy to dish out negativity about independence but unable to defend the current status quo.

Why do you assume I am happy with the current state of affairs? I have been consistent in saying the current government are the worst I have ever known, I predicted Boris Johnson would be a dreadful PM and I was right. I won't defend something I don't agree with, who would.

I would be delighted with a Labour victory at the next GE, preferably with an overall majority.

And I said all nationalism should be frowned up, Scottish or British nationalism.

Why does you sympathy end at the border though?

[Hibrandenburg]

Why do you assume I am happy with the current state of affairs? I have been consistent in saying the current government are the worst I have ever known, I predicted Boris Johnson would be a dreadful PM and I was right. I won't defend something I don't agree with, who would.

I would be delighted with a Labour victory at the next GE, preferably with an overall majority.

And I said all nationalism should be frowned up, Scottish or British nationalism.

Why does you sympathy end at the border though?

My sympathy doesn't end at the border, it just starts north of the border. You're not seriously accusing the independence movement as being anti-internationalist? You just have to look at the reactions from the UK government and the Scottish government after the Brexit vote, the Scottish government were immediate in their assurance to foreign born Scots that they were welcome to stay in their adopted country whereas the UK government delayed making any commitments towards EU citizens living in the UK and instead used them as pawns in the Brexit negotiations. In your eyes it seems you equate Scots wanting the best for Scotland and all who live there to be anti English, but I don't believe you believe that yourself, it's just a useful stick to beat those who want independence with.

[grunt]

I don't really want to turn this into a what does nationalism mean discussion. Point I was making was if you call yourself progressive and a socialist why does that seemingly end at the border.
Simple. Because try as we might, we can't influence the UK Tory Government. We tried to tell them how to Brexit without causing major economic problems, they responded within seconds of receiving the document to demonstrate they hadn't even read it.

So spare me the sob story about caring for the people of Darlington.

[James310]

My sympathy doesn't end at the border, it just starts north of the border. You're not seriously accusing the independence movement as being anti-internationalist? You just have to look at the reactions from the UK government and the Scottish government after the Brexit vote, the Scottish government were immediate in their assurance to foreign born Scots that they were welcome to stay in their adopted country whereas the UK government delayed making any commitments towards EU citizens living in the UK and instead used them as pawns in the Brexit negotiations. In your eyes it seems you equate Scots wanting the best for Scotland and all who live there to be anti English, but I don't believe you believe that yourself, it's just a useful stick to beat those who want independence with.

I am just saying nationalism and so called progressive politics doesn't seem to go hand in hand.

[grunt]

How's that? What is it she has said that makes you think that? Feast your eyes.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24938/penny_mordaunt/portsmouth_north/votes

[grunt]

I am just saying nationalism and so called progressive politics doesn't seem to go hand in hand.Rubbish.

[James310]

Rubbish.

Why?

[James310]

Feast your eyes.

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24938/penny_mordaunt/portsmouth_north/votes

I asked why her in particular was a lurch even more to the right compared to all the other candidates? That's why I said would you not same that about them all.

[Hibrandenburg]

I am just saying nationalism and so called progressive politics doesn't seem to go hand in hand.

I agree with that, I just don't agree that the Scottish independence movement unlike British Nationalism is about nationalism in the blood and soil interpretation of the word.

[The Tubs]

Why?

26026
26027

[Keith_M]

But you were happy to vote Yes in 2014 and leave the EU? On the basis you thought Scotland would apply to join as soon as it was Independent, but still comfortable to leave the EU.

Austerity may or may not be coming but under the SNP Growth Commission plan it's definitely coming, if that is still the blueprint, who knows these days.

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/13072

But I guess it would be "our austerity" so that's better.


I presume you were trying to make a logical argument that would convince people that your view is correct but all you've actually done is highlight the irony of listening to Project Fear.


2014: "Be warned, vote for Scottish Independence and you'll be ejected from the EU!"

2016: "By the way, old chap, now we're all leaving the EU"


Oh how we all laughed at the irony....

[Just Alf]

Why do you assume I am happy with the current state of affairs? I have been consistent in saying the current government are the worst I have ever known, I predicted Boris Johnson would be a dreadful PM and I was right. I won't defend something I don't agree with, who would.

I would be delighted with a Labour victory at the next GE, preferably with an overall majority.

And I said all nationalism should be frowned up, Scottish or British nationalism.

Why does you sympathy end at the border though?
I am just saying nationalism and so called progressive politics doesn't seem to go hand in hand.You've been consistent in being anti SNP, anti independence etc, you also do occasionally say 'and I hate Boris' etc ... but this is never backed up by any in depth discussion on the relevant threads.
The SNP related threads have instances where Indy or SNP supporters have shown displeasure at SNP/Sturgeon etc

Maybe that's why politics feels more 'grown up' in Scotland and another reason why independence is a route worth taking?

And on the 2nd point, I agree .... although I do think it's a shame that some folks conflate wanting to have closer control over your own destiny as being 'anti' other people.

[James310]

I presume you were trying to make a logical argument that would convince people that your view is correct but all you've actually done is highlight the irony of listening to Project Fear.


2014: "Be warned, vote for Scottish Independence and you'll be ejected from the EU!"

2016: "By the way, old chap, now we're all leaving the EU"


Oh how we all laughed at the irony....

It was a fact if you voted Yes in 2014 then Scotland would have to apply to join the EU from scratch. The EU confirmed this. At the time in 2014 yes people said vote No to stay in the EU (as a Yes vote was a guaranteed leave the EU) and unfortunately the Brexit referendum came soon after and unfortunately people voted to leave.

[Ozyhibby]

You've been consistent in being anti SNP, anti independence etc, you also do occasionally say 'and I hate Boris' etc ... but this is never backed up by any in depth discussion on the relevant threads.
The SNP related threads have instances where Indy or SNP supporters have shown displeasure at SNP/Sturgeon etc

Maybe that's what politics feels more 'grown up' in Scotland and another reason why independence is a route worth taking?

Anyone the 2nd point, I agree .... although I do think it's a shame that some folks conflate wanting to have closer control over your own destiny as being 'anti' other people.

James is a unionist to his core. Perfectly reasonable position to take. There is no limit to how bad the UK govt could run Scotland that would change his mind. There is no point trying to convince him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

James is a unionist to his core. Perfectly reasonable position to take. There is no limit to how bad the UK govt could run Scotland that would change his mind. There is no point trying to convince him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My family come first in all circumstances. My posts generally reflect the economics of Independence as I don't think it works, I asked a few days ago to see one piece of credible analysis that's shows we will be better off after Independence, not a single person has produced anything. That's quite something. Like Brexit why would I want something that makes me and and family worse off? There is a smattering of hypocrisy in saying all the Brexiteers were stupid voting to make themselves worse off, but it seems acceptable to vote for Independence to make ourselves worse off.

You will rarely see me commenting on how British I feel or what it means to be British etc as I am not really bothered by that stuff.

Graphs of Norway and Sweden might do it for some but I want more details, none of that is forthcoming and 8 years after IndyRef1 and the SNP basically in constant campaign mode it's quite telling they still have no answers to the big questions.

I also look at the current SNP government and think in no way I want them in charge of setting up a new country, some competency in government would definitely help. Some might say after Indy we can vote for whatever government we want, but being realistic the SNP will be the party shaping the new country, and issues such as currency, deficits, borders etc. won't go away with new people in charge.

[Keith_M]

It was a fact if you voted Yes in 2014 then Scotland would have to apply to join the EU from scratch. The EU confirmed this. At the time in 2014 yes people said vote No to stay in the EU (as a Yes vote was a guaranteed leave the EU) and unfortunately the Brexit referendum came soon after and unfortunately people voted to leave.


And 'unfortunately' for unionists, Brexit is the thing that changed the whole landscape in regards to whether or not a second independence referendum is justified.

And even more 'unfortunately'... despite the tactical voting that HH mentioned earlier that reduced the SNP's highest ever number of MPs to only the second highest number ever... the people of Scotland have consistently voted them back into power in Holyrood, and they still have way more MPs than any other party in the Scottish 'region' of the UK.

[The Tubs]

My family come first in all circumstances. My posts generally reflect the economics of Independence as I don't think it works, I asked a few days ago to see one piece of credible analysis that's shows we will be better off after Independence, not a single person has produced anything. That's quite something. Like Brexit why would I want something that makes me and and family worse off? There is a smattering of hypocrisy in saying all the Brexiteers were stupid voting to make themselves worse off, but it seems acceptable to vote for Independence to make ourselves worse off.



26029

I was actually quite proud of myself for coming up with this. I feel disappointed that you weren't impressed, James.

As I have little faith in quantitative economic forecasts in which there are many moving parts (trademark, Lee Johnson), the best I can do is consider how poorly the UK performs, especially when outside the EU.

[James310]

Was more meant as a light-hearted dig at the old negativity on the main board. I didn’t meant to offend and will delete the post as don’t want things to go off-track or be taken in the wrong way 👍

Thank you, it's appreciated.

[LewysGot2]

My family come first in all circumstances. My posts generally reflect the economics of Independence as I don't think it works, I asked a few days ago to see one piece of credible analysis that's shows we will be better off after Independence, not a single person has produced anything. That's quite something. Like Brexit why would I want something that makes me and and family worse off? There is a smattering of hypocrisy in saying all the Brexiteers were stupid voting to make themselves worse off, but it seems acceptable to vote for Independence to make ourselves worse off.

You will rarely see me commenting on how British I feel or what it means to be British etc as I am not really bothered by that stuff.

Graphs of Norway and Sweden might do it for some but I want more details, none of that is forthcoming ans 8 years after IndyRef1 and the SNP basically in constant campaign mode it's quite telling they still have no answers to the big questions.

I also look at the current SNP government and think in no way I want them in charge of setting up a new country, some competent government would definitely help. Some might say after Indy we can vote for whatever government we want, but being realistic they SNP will be the party shaping the new country, and issues such as currency, deficits, borders etc. won't go away with new people in charge.

I think you're representative of a number of folk who will definitely look at this issue through a prism of how much financial risk they're personally able or prepared to take. I think you're just being honest with people. With the winter we're about to have there's going to be more people feeling the squeeze and how willing they are to add to that will be part of the equation.

Yes need to learn from what folk like you are saying to be honest. It can't be dismissed as nay saying negativity - just IMHO.

[James310]

26029

I was actually quite proud of myself for coming up with this. I feel disappointed that you weren't impressed, James.

As I have little faith in quantitative economic forecasts in which there are many moving parts (trademark, Lee Johnson), the best I can do is consider how poorly the UK performs, especially when outside the EU.

That doesn't show me how Scotland would perform after Independence. Sure it shows the UK performing badly, but if you believe the impact of Independence is going to make us worse off then actually the UK performing badly makes Independence seem like an even worse prospect. If you follow my logic.

[James310]

I think you're representative of a number of folk who will definitely look at this issue through a prism of how much financial risk they're personally able or prepared to take. I think you're just being honest with people. With the winter we're about to have there's going to be more people feeling the squeeze and how willing they are to add to that will be part of the equation.

Yes need to learn from what folk like you are saying to be honest. It can't be dismissed as nay saying negativity - just IMHO.

I am quite happy when people dismiss me as negative or a nay sayer. It's proven that the key reason given for voting NO was fear for the future – of the economic uncertainty and risk that Independence would bring. So don't give away the secret, people should just keep calling me negative and dismiss my fears.