Scottish Independence

[Ozyhibby]

Economic partnerships are fine.... Poltical unions with a country 10 x your size (and all voters treated as 1 group) never will make any sense for me

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Yes, the EU is a much better model for an economic partnership. It’s also a far bigger market for us.


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[Moulin Yarns]

In short term I think it would be best if the Tory's lost the next General Election, they have been in power too long and Brexit has been handled really badly. They need a period in opposition to sort themselves out.

I don't think the UK is perfect, no country is but I genuinely don't believe what the SNP is offering (well we don't know what it is yet do we) gives me any hope it would make us all better off and happier. I haven't seen on credible piece of analysis that shows how extracting yourself from a modern interconnected economic partnership benefits us, if anything Brexit shows how these things can end up.

I am out for the rest of the day now!

You need to realise that the vision that the SNP has for Scotland isn't the only one, although it appears that the other parties don't have any vision to put forward.


Imagine what a Labour government in Scotland could achieve.

I think that if independence was proposed by anyone other than the SNP then we would be much more likely to accept it because it wouldn't be seen as a political issue.

We are being restricted in what we can do in Scotland because of policies enacted in Westminster, such as immigration that I think everyone agrees should be different in Scotland.

Anyways, because independence is inextricably linked to the SNP there are many people who will never accept that it may be a good thing.

[Berwickhibby]

Knight/damehood, not peerage.

I stand corrected

[Stairway 2 7]

You need to realise that the vision that the SNP has for Scotland isn't the only one, although it appears that the other parties don't have any vision to put forward.


Imagine what a Labour government in Scotland could achieve.

I think that if independence was proposed by anyone other than the SNP then we would be much more likely to accept it because it wouldn't be seen as a political issue.

We are being restricted in what we can do in Scotland because of policies enacted in Westminster, such as immigration that I think everyone agrees should be different in Scotland.

Anyways, because independence is inextricably linked to the SNP there are many people who will never accept that it may be a good thing.

Yep very good post

[Just Alf]

You need to realise that the vision that the SNP has for Scotland isn't the only one, although it appears that the other parties don't have any vision to put forward.


Imagine what a Labour government in Scotland could achieve.

I think that if independence was proposed by anyone other than the SNP then we would be much more likely to accept it because it wouldn't be seen as a political issue.

We are being restricted in what we can do in Scotland because of policies enacted in Westminster, such as immigration that I think everyone agrees should be different in Scotland.

Anyways, because independence is inextricably linked to the SNP there are many people who will never accept that it may be a good thing.I sometimes wonder what an iScotland parliament would look like... I've said before I'd expect the SNP to win any honeymoon election .... I'd also hope that they'd involve all the parties in the various committees negotiating the new rUK - iScotland relationship in exactly the same way as the Tories didn't with Brexit.

I can easily imagine a Labour government with a very strong Tory opposition (hopefully the Scottish version would be quite different to what we have now to enable it! )

[Stairway 2 7]

I sometimes wonder what an iScotland parliament would look like... I've said before I'd expect the SNP to win any honeymoon election .... I'd also hope that they'd involve all the parties in the various committees negotiating the new rUK - iScotland relationship in exactly the same way as the Tories didn't with Brexit.

I can easily imagine a Labour government with a very strong Tory opposition (hopefully the Scottish version would be quite different to what we have now to enable it! )

Probably lots of coalitions or voting or particular policies, due to PR

I'd see Scottish socialist like party, greens, Labour, tories, snp all getting seats. Maybe a crazy dup like hun rejoin uk party. Labour and tories would jump more to the left I presume

[He's here!]

Like it or not that's exactly how many people see the relationship between Westminster and Scotland. And judging by your posts its clearly hit a nerve.

That's nonsense IMHO.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yep very good post

Thanks, but it's noticeable that none of the defenders of the status quo have found anything to argue about. 🤔😉

[WhileTheChief..]

Not looking for an argument but disagree with most of your post.

Imagine what Labour could do in an Indy Scotland? No thanks. It gives me the absolute fear.

There are no circumstances where Independence wouldn't be considered a political issue.

What would the Scottish gov like to do in future that they can't do now? What is Westminster preventing them from doing?

You only need just over half the country to think it's a good thing. Should be easily achievable if we go by all the positives you share on here.

Why is it even a close thing? You guys should be scooshing it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not looking for an argument but disagree with most of your post.

Imagine what Labour could do in an Indy Scotland? No thanks. It gives me the absolute fear.

There are no circumstances where Independence wouldn't be considered a political issue.

What would the Scottish gov like to do in future that they can't do now? What is Westminster preventing them from doing?

You only need just over half the country to think it's a good thing. Should be easily achievable if we go by all the positives you share on here.

Why is it even a close thing? You guys should be scooshing it.

So, where is your vision for Scotland 10 years from now?

[ronaldo7]

So, where is your vision for Scotland 10 years from now?

Wait...I was just opening the popcorn

[Moulin Yarns]

Wait...I was just opening the popcorn

I'm sure you will enjoy it 😁


What would an independent Scotland under Scottish Conservative government look like 🤔

[Stairway 2 7]

Not looking for an argument but disagree with most of your post.

Imagine what Labour could do in an Indy Scotland? No thanks. It gives me the absolute fear.

There are no circumstances where Independence wouldn't be considered a political issue.

What would the Scottish gov like to do in future that they can't do now? What is Westminster preventing them from doing?

You only need just over half the country to think it's a good thing. Should be easily achievable if we go by all the positives you share on here.

Why is it even a close thing? You guys should be scooshing it.

It's a spot on post because many do think of independence is about the snp as a party. It isn't, for most they are a vehicle to independence. I'm sure they will do well post, but I'm also sure many might drift away to other parties after their main focus is achieved.

Also saying what labour can achieve also goes for the tories or any other party. The tories will be tailored to what the view is up here, less focus on brexit and immigration ect.

Think about getting shot of fptp. The greens got over 800,000 but had 1 mp, that's ridiculous.

It's harder to get change than keep things as they are. No voters were weighed heavily on the older vote. Pensions played a huge part I believe. But also younger voters have been brought up with a Scottish parliament and a belief it can be different I think. I think it is inevitable one day seeing how heavily under 30s vote yes

[The_Exile]

I'm sure they will do well post, but I'm also sure many might drift away to other parties after their main focus is achieved.

I think like a vast number of folk, I will continue to vote for the SNP until independence is achieved. But I personally wouldn't want them anywhere near governance of the country afterwards.

[Glory Lurker]

I think like a vast number of folk, I will continue to vote for the SNP until independence is achieved. But I personally wouldn't want them anywhere near governance of the country afterwards.

That's me, too.

[StevieC]

What would the Scottish gov like to do in future that they can't do now? What is Westminster preventing them from doing?

Immigration and Renewables are two that immediately jump out .. and both are huge for the future of Scotland.



Why is it even a close thing? You guys should be scooshing it.

Fear of change?

[James310]

So looks like Nicola Sturgeon is going for a massive opinion poll that only her supporters will take part in.

https://twitter.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1538212385793748993?t=KKecM0bj0hOG-t_y3LVeQA&s=19


NEW:

"Nicola Sturgeon is prepared to hold an ‘advisory referendum’ on Scottish independence in Autumn 2023 if the UK government refuses to grant an S30 order for an official referendum."

There must surely be Indy supporters who also think this is the wrong path to take? When Yes win with 95% on a turnout of maybe 40% what does it prove? Would she try and negotiate Independence on the back of it? Would it be the will of the people of Scotland?

Is she really going to do it?

[Ozyhibby]

So looks like Nicola Sturgeon is going for a massive opinion poll that only her supporters will take part in.

https://twitter.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1538212385793748993?t=KKecM0bj0hOG-t_y3LVeQA&s=19


NEW:

"Nicola Sturgeon is prepared to hold an ‘advisory referendum’ on Scottish independence in Autumn 2023 if the UK government refuses to grant an S30 order for an official referendum."

There must surely be Indy supporters who also think this is the wrong path to take? When Yes win with 95% on a turnout of maybe 40% what does it prove? Would she try and negotiate Independence on the back of it? Would it be the will of the people of Scotland?

Is she really going to do it?

I very much doubt that is the plan.


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[James310]

I very much doubt that is the plan.


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I would beg to differ, she has said there will be a referendum in 2023. No way is the UK Gov agreeing to one in the next few months, so the only thing she can have in mind is an advisory referendum.

If she did go for that do you think it's a good move?

[James310]

I very much doubt that is the plan.


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https://twitter.com/SundayTimesSco/status/1538215265569234945?t=DPUm5pbWFKzlayNqYnohzA&s=19


One source said the SNP leadership regards a consultative referendum as “win, win”, rejecting the idea that it would be in any way “unofficial” or a “wildcat” vote.

[Ozyhibby]

I would beg to differ, she has said there will be a referendum in 2023. No way is the UK Gov agreeing to one in the next few months, so the only thing she can have in mind is an advisory referendum.

If she did go for that do you think it's a good move?

Unless the plan is to legislate for a legal referendum and wait for it to be challenged in court. At which point Scotland then has no legal route to independence. That will be an important point in the debate. The point where it’s made clear to all Scots that there is no way out of this union. That no matter what we vote for, we will never be allowed control over our own destiny again. That we belong to London in perpetuity. I think that is an important point to reach in its own right.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I would beg to differ, she has said there will be a referendum in 2023. No way is the UK Gov agreeing to one in the next few months, so the only thing she can have in mind is an advisory referendum.

If she did go for that do you think it's a good move?

If they refuse, do you think its a bad move for them. You can say she's asked before but there has been nothing like this. I didn't even know they had before, but everyone is talking about this

[Stairway 2 7]

I wish they didn't listen to the advisory brexit referendum

[James310]

Unless the plan is to legislate for a legal referendum and wait for it to be challenged in court. At which point Scotland then has no legal route to independence. That will be an important point in the debate. The point where it’s made clear to all Scots that there is no way out of this union. That no matter what we vote for, we will never be allowed control over our own destiny again. That we belong to London in perpetuity. I think that is an important point to reach in its own right.


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You can't legislative for one as the Lord Advocate would not approve it, hence why you have never seen one. All bills in the Scottish Parliament need law officers approval, the Lord Advocate is not going to give her approval for it. I don't think it will even end up at the Supreme Court.

Do you not think we would have seen the bill by now when Nicola Sturgeon said in January it would be announced "within weeks".

This is plan B.

If she goes ahead do you think it's a good idea?

[James310]

If they refuse, do you think its a bad move for them. You can say she's asked before but there has been nothing like this. I didn't even know they had before, but everyone is talking about this

It's already been refused and with only 23% of people wanting a referendum in 2023 then it has the majority support.

Will it be a bad move? How would you feel when Yes wins with 95% on a turnout of about half of the last referendum? Would you be celebrating a historic victory?

[Ozyhibby]

It's already been refused and with only 23% of people wanting a referendum in 2023 then it has the majority support.

Will it be a bad move? How would you feel when Yes wins with 95% on a turnout of about half of the last referendum? Would you be celebrating a historic victory?

No formal request has been made yet?


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[James310]

No formal request has been made yet?


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https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-rules-out-indyref2_uk_62a86121e4b0cdccbe552ebe


I guess a formal request like last time is maybe still to come, but we all know what the answer is as we have it.

I guess you don't want to answer if you think it's a good idea or not if she goes down this road?

[Stairway 2 7]

It's already been refused and with only 23% of people wanting a referendum in 2023 then it has the majority support.

Will it be a bad move? How would you feel when Yes wins with 95% on a turnout of about half of the last referendum? Would you be celebrating a historic victory?

No we'll be saying uk government isn't letting Scotland have a legitimate vote and then it's the beginning of the end.

[Stairway 2 7]

You can't legislative for one as the Lord Advocate would not approve it, hence why you have never seen one. All bills in the Scottish Parliament need law officers approval, the Lord Advocate is not going to give her approval for it. I don't think it will even end up at the Supreme Court.

Do you not think we would have seen the bill by now when Nicola Sturgeon said in January it would be announced "within weeks".

This is plan B.

If she goes ahead do you think it's a good idea?

In January just before the biggest spike of covid we've had and a full scale war in Europe, that January

[WhileTheChief..]

Immigration and Renewables are two that immediately jump out .. and both are huge for the future of Scotland.



Fear of change?

Or people don't think things are nearly as bad as is being made out constantly by the SNP?

We've been getting told how bad things are for 10+ years. You would think everyone would be champing at the bit for change and embracing it, not running scared from it?

The UK as a whole is massive on renewables and will only get bigger in this area.

Immigration is huge in what way? I'm all for it, but in what way is it more important for Scotland than any other European country?

[Moulin Yarns]

I would beg to differ, she has said there will be a referendum in 2023. No way is the UK Gov agreeing to one in the next few months, so the only thing she can have in mind is an advisory referendum.

If she did go for that do you think it's a good move?

But but, Johnson said, quite explicitly, that the people of the Falkland island, a British overseas dependancy, should decide their own future, but you think an equal partner in the UK should be denied the same opportunity!!!?

[Moulin Yarns]

Funny how I ask the question of how people of different persuasion see a future independent Scotland in 10 years time and all we get is " your not allowed"!!

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-rules-out-indyref2_uk_62a86121e4b0cdccbe552ebe


I guess a formal request like last time is maybe still to come, but we all know what the answer is as we have it.

I guess you don't want to answer if you think it's a good idea or not if she goes down this road?

I think anything that is not legal is a bad idea.


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[James310]

No we'll be saying uk government isn't letting Scotland have a legitimate vote and then it's the beginning of the end.

But they said that twice, it made no difference at all.

[James310]

I think anything that is not legal is a bad idea.


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But it will be legal, but not legally binding as it has no S30. That's her way around it. It's a big opinion poll basically which is what Brexit was, but that had the agreement of all parties and both sides engaged.

We already have councils saying they won't be supporting it so who will open up polling stations and count the votes etc? Would the Electoral commission be part of the process, would the police take part etc.

It's a massive gamble as already the opposition parties have said they will boycott it.

[Ozyhibby]

But they said that twice, it made no difference at all.

When? There hasn’t been a request yet?


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[Stairway 2 7]

But they said that twice, it made no difference at all.

As I've said before I had no idea and I think oz said similar that official letters had been sent. Not a chance it had the same publicity as now, its everywhere. If they go full pelt now give dates ect then cancel when the government say no it will be a bad move for England.

[ronaldo7]

In short term I think it would be best if the Tory's lost the next General Election, they have been in power too long and Brexit has been handled really badly. They need a period in opposition to sort themselves out.

I don't think the UK is perfect, no country is but I genuinely don't believe what the SNP is offering (well we don't know what it is yet do we) gives me any hope it would make us all better off and happier. I haven't seen on credible piece of analysis that shows how extracting yourself from a modern interconnected economic partnership benefits us, if anything Brexit shows how these things can end up.

I am out for the rest of the day now!

🙏🌞

[James310]

When? There hasn’t been a request yet?


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I am referring to the two previous times, which I linked to a few days ago. 2 formal requests were made.

[James310]

As I've said before I had no idea and I think oz said similar that official letters had been sent. Not a chance it had the same publicity as now, its everywhere. If they go full pelt now give dates ect then cancel when the government say no it will be a bad move for England.

It won't, only 23% of people want a referendum next year. We have Indy supporters on here who don't want a referendum next year.

It's a last throw of the dice I reckon.

[Stairway 2 7]

It won't, only 23% of people want a referendum next year. We have Indy supporters on here who don't want a referendum next year.

It's a last throw of the dice I reckon.

Your running with one poll of less than 1000 people as the will of the people, over Scottish parliamentary votes in the millions. Must admit that looks daft

[Stairway 2 7]

Polls can show what you want, load eh pish. I wouldn't take any as more than a snapshot of a few people, including bellow

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/voters-split-5050-on-scottish-independence-new-poll-suggests-3717141

Voters split 50/50 on Scottish independence, new poll suggests
A new poll has suggested voters are split 50/50 on whether they would back Scottish independence in a new referendum, while 50 per cent want another vote by 2026

[James310]

Your running with one poll of less than 1000 people as the will of the people, over Scottish parliamentary votes in the millions. Must admit that looks daft

It's more than one poll but I get your point. But the world has changed significantly even since last year. I am not sure people are up for another referendum at this time. Let's see what happens, more twists and turns no doubt to come.

[James310]

Polls can show what you want, load eh pish. I wouldn't take any as more than a snapshot of a few people, including bellow

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/voters-split-5050-on-scottish-independence-new-poll-suggests-3717141

Voters split 50/50 on Scottish independence, new poll suggests
A new poll has suggested voters are split 50/50 on whether they would back Scottish independence in a new referendum, while 50 per cent want another vote by 2026

Polls can show what you want? Well not really they show what the results are. I respect they will be different nearly every time.

[Stairway 2 7]

It's more than one poll but I get your point. But the world has changed significantly even since last year. I am not sure people are up for another referendum at this time. Let's see what happens, more twists and turns no doubt to come.

Ukraine and covid will unfortunately lose the publics interest, maybe has already. Brexit is going to keep smashing us. I think independence will be the next thing to fill the papers. It's clearly a very close race

[James310]

Ukraine and covid will unfortunately lose the publics interest, maybe has already. Brexit is going to keep smashing us. I think independence will be the next thing to fill the papers. It's clearly a very close race

How will it look when there is a televised debate and Nicola Sturgeon is standing there on her own when the other parties don't take part? It's going to be a strange time. The only result is a massive win for Yes on a really low turnout of under 50%.

A poll for independence supporters to see if they want Independence.

[Stairway 2 7]

How will it look when there is a televised debate and Nicola Sturgeon is standing there on her own when the other parties don't take part? It's going to be a strange time. The only result is a massive win for Yes on a really low turnout of under 50%.

A poll for independence supporters to see if they want Independence.

Would probably be the death knell for the parties that refused to go on stage. Tories are already damaged beyond repair in Scotland, but others are swaying on the ropes

[Moulin Yarns]

How will it look when there is a televised debate and Nicola Sturgeon is standing there on her own when the other parties don't take part? It's going to be a strange time. The only result is a massive win for Yes on a really low turnout of under 50%.

A poll for independence supporters to see if they want Independence.

Remember " there's only one team in Tallinn"? You've got to be in it to win it 🤔😂

[James310]

Remember " there's only one team in Tallinn"? You've got to be in it to win it 🤔😂

Crack on if you think it's a great idea.

I see no way the likes of the EU the UN etc would even entertain what is basically an opinion poll of independence supporters asking if they want Independence as any kind of basis for declaring Independence. Internationally it will be likely ignored.

How did the EU react to Catalonia?

[Hibernian Verse]

Crack on if you think it's a great idea.

I see no way the likes of the EU the UN etc would even entertain what is basically an opinion poll of independence supporters asking if they want Independence as any kind of basis for declaring Independence. Internationally it will be likely ignored.

How did the EU react to Catalonia?

The way you make up hypothetical situations and quote polls that suit you stinks of fear.

[Ozyhibby]

Crack on if you think it's a great idea.

I see no way the likes of the EU the UN etc would even entertain what is basically an opinion poll of independence supporters asking if they want Independence as any kind of basis for declaring Independence. Internationally it will be likely ignored.

How did the EU react to Catalonia?

You treating an unattributed article in the times like it’s fact.[emoji23]


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[James310]

You treating an unattributed article in the times like it’s fact.[emoji23]


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No I am not, I am speculating what might happen as does pretty much everyone else on here do.

[degenerated]

I think anything that is not legal is a bad idea.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkIf only the British government shared those values.

[Ozyhibby]

No I am not, I am speculating what might happen as does pretty much everyone else on here do.

I think the FM has made clear that any ref would need to be legal but you keep speculating.[emoji106]


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[James310]

I think the FM has made clear that any ref would need to be legal but you keep speculating.[emoji106]


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As explained it can still be legal, but not legally binding. A big difference obviously. An advisory referendum or basically a big opinion poll.

That's why it's being described as a "legal wheeze".

Who knows maybe that's not the plan and Boris Johnson will agree to a S30 despite rejecting it a few days ago. Unlikely I would say.

[Ozyhibby]

As explained it can still be legal, but not legally binding. A big difference obviously.

That's why it's being described as a "legal wheeze".

Who knows maybe that's not the plan and Boris Johnson will agree to a S30 despite rejecting it a few days ago. Unlikely I would say.

There is zero chance Johnson agrees a s30. He won’t be there forever though and others may find denying democracy a little more awkward. Think it’s important for the SG to get the request in soon though so that the refusal is banked.


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[stoneyburn hibs]

No I am not, I am speculating what might happen as does pretty much everyone else on here do.

The Tories thread, give us your chat on that.
You've got plenty to say, let's hear it.

[James310]

The Tories thread, give us your chat on that.
You've got plenty to say, let's hear it.

Why? Will it add anything, I want the Tory's to lose the next election as much as you.

Why not ask me to chat on the Cryptocurrency thread as well?

[Since90+2]

If the vote is not approved by Westminster the Unionist parties will just simply not engage. No debates, no TV interviews, no campaigning, they'll sell it as getting on with their day job.

Unless a section 30 is granted the vote will be utterly meaningless. I think NS knows that but really has nowhere else to go with it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Why? Will it add anything, I want the Tory's to lose the next election as much as you.

Why not ask me to chat on the Cryptocurrency thread as well?

You can't see a correlation between tory brexit threads and independence. If you are 61, in the years since you can vote you've had tory governments. The only exception was brown/Blair on the right of Labour.

What kind of masochist wants more of that. No left wing government will be in power in the uk in my life. The press, big business and fptp will see to that.

[The Modfather]

Why? Will it add anything, I want the Tory's to lose the next election as much as you.

Why not ask me to chat on the Cryptocurrency thread as well?

Or chat on the football forum. I still think it’s bizarre that a Hibs fan has no actual interest in talking about Hibs on a Hibs forum.

I’ve no issue with your views on independence, other than wishing you would also talk up the union and put foreword a positive case for its future. You almost solely exist on here to talk about independence or the SNP. Most of those discussions are circular and don’t add anything new but you’re happy to continue posting on those two threads anyway.

[James310]

Or chat on the football forum. I still think it’s bizarre that a Hibs fan has no actual interest in talking about Hibs on a Hibs forum.

I’ve no issue with your views on independence, other than wishing you would also talk up the union and put foreword a positive case for its future. You almost solely exist on here to talk about independence or the SNP. Most of those discussions are circular and don’t add anything new but you’re happy to continue posting on those two threads anyway.

I posted about 5 times in a year before a few weeks ago, now I am posting again because it's interesting but yes maybe time for a backseat again if the personal stuff is coming back. Thanks for the reminder.

[Jack]

So looks like Nicola Sturgeon is going for a massive opinion poll that only her supporters will take part in.

https://twitter.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1538212385793748993?t=KKecM0bj0hOG-t_y3LVeQA&s=19


NEW:

"Nicola Sturgeon is prepared to hold an ‘advisory referendum’ on Scottish independence in Autumn 2023 if the UK government refuses to grant an S30 order for an official referendum."

There must surely be Indy supporters who also think this is the wrong path to take? When Yes win with 95% on a turnout of maybe 40% what does it prove? Would she try and negotiate Independence on the back of it? Would it be the will of the people of Scotland?

Is she really going to do it?

Do you know who British Electoral Politics is?

[The Modfather]

I posted about 5 times in a year before a few weeks ago, now I am posting again because it's interesting but yes maybe time for a backseat again if the personal stuff is coming back. Thanks for the reminder.

Do you never find any of the Hibs or football related part of the board interesting? Up to you if you want a break. I tried to engage with you constructively about the positives of the union and how it could look but you weren’t really interested in that either. You only want to talk down independence or the SNP by proxy. Which doesn’t add as much to the forum as it could, but your choice what to post about or not post about.

[Since90+2]

I posted about 5 times in a year before a few weeks ago, now I am posting again because it's interesting but yes maybe time for a backseat again if the personal stuff is coming back. Thanks for the reminder.

I don't agree with your views on independence but I've always found you respectful and a decent poster. I can't always say the same about my fellow independence supporters.

[Jack]

25966

[ronaldo7]

Crack on if you think it's a great idea.

I see no way the likes of the EU the UN etc would even entertain what is basically an opinion poll of independence supporters asking if they want Independence as any kind of basis for declaring Independence. Internationally it will be likely ignored.

How did the EU react to Catalonia?

There you go, conflating a region of Spain, with an actual country.

Scotland is a country in a union by way of an international treaty.

Your argument would hold weight if Scotland was a region of England, but it isn't.

[Moulin Yarns]

No I am not, I am speculating what might happen as does pretty much everyone else on here do.

So, if you want to speculate, again, please give me a vision of Scotland in 10 years time where independence is in place and the party of your choice is in government and the SNP no longer has independence as their main aim?

What policies would you like to be front and foremost in an independent Scotland of the future, because just saying that the SNP can't have a referendum is a bit wearing.

[PeeJay]

It's a joke on the scandal this month with you gov being owned by a tory donor and Zahawi phoning him to keep the polling Conservative, he said the call was only a joke. Hibsbollah is your man on the subject though, alot over my head

Ah - joke, missed that completely - went right over the top of my head ...:embarrass

[James310]

Do you never find any of the Hibs or football related part of the board interesting? Up to you if you want a break. I tried to engage with you constructively about the positives of the union and how it could look but you weren’t really interested in that either. You only want to talk down independence or the SNP by proxy. Which doesn’t add as much to the forum as it could, but your choice what to post about or not post about.

I talk about stuff that makes you feel uncomfortable, apologies for that.

Feel free to ignore me, that's what the button is for. I think I will do similar then we are both happy.

I appreciate the couple of PMs I got, let's see what happens.

[James310]

So, if you want to speculate, again, please give me a vision of Scotland in 10 years time where independence is in place and the party of your choice is in government and the SNP no longer has independence as their main aim?

What policies would you like to be front and foremost in an independent Scotland of the future, because just saying that the SNP can't have a referendum is a bit wearing.

Probably like most people, a good thriving economy, good education system, a good health service etc. No different to what everyone else probably wants.

[James310]

I don't agree with your views on independence but I've always found you respectful and a decent poster. I can't always say the same about my fellow independence supporters.

Thanks.

[Moulin Yarns]

Probably like most people, a good thriving economy, good education system, a good health service etc. No different to what everyone else probably wants.

Good to hear, so let's get on with the people making the Democratic decision on how we should be governed and who should be governing Scotland. 👍

[Since90+2]

Good to hear, so let's get on with the people making the Democratic decision on how we should be governed and who should be governing Scotland. 👍

I can see both sides of the argument for the referendum. If the SNP keep winning elections and in their manifesto it states they will hold a referendum do we literally keep having them every 4 years? Because that's how I understand some people think about it. That would just be incredibly disruptive for everyone.

I think we need a referendum now after Brexit to let the people of Scotland decide what direction we want to go in. If the people decide staying in the Union is the best option for continuity and it being perceived as the safer bet , personally I don't have a problem with that. I hope it's a yes but whatever the result is it needs to be final and if no wins another referendum needs to be off the table for generation.

[Hibrandenburg]

If the vote is not approved by Westminster the Unionist parties will just simply not engage. No debates, no TV interviews, no campaigning, they'll sell it as getting on with their day job.

Unless a section 30 is granted the vote will be utterly meaningless. I think NS knows that but really has nowhere else to go with it.

She's too clever to fall into that trap, in fact I think she's setting a trap for the UK government. They will probably refuse to grant permission for an independence referendum banking that Sturgeon will then call a wild-card election. My money is on Sturgeon then just using the refusal as political dynamite to win support for independence by exposing Westminster as undemocratic.

[Ozyhibby]

I can see both sides of the argument for the referendum. If the SNP keep winning elections and in their manifesto it states they will hold a referendum do we literally keep having them every 4 years? Because that's how I understand some people think about it. That would just be incredibly disruptive for everyone.

I think we need a referendum now after Brexit to let the people of Scotland decide what direction we want to go in. If the people decide staying in the Union is the best option for continuity and it being perceived as the safer bet , personally I don't have a problem with that. I hope it's a yes but whatever the result is it needs to be final and if no wins another referendum needs to be off the table for generation.

Without Brexit I don’t think we’d be anywhere close to another referendum yet. It was a game changer.
I’m pretty sure the 2016 Scottish election the SNP did not have a 2nd referendum promise, just that it would only be considered if there was a material change in circumstances.
I don’t agree anything should ever be final. There always has to be a democratic route to achieving anything. Otherwise the crazies get involved and before you know it things turn violent.
I wouldn’t be against having the 7 year rule that they have for NI though. That seems like a reasonable suggestion.


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[The Modfather]

I talk about stuff that makes you feel uncomfortable, apologies for that.

Feel free to ignore me, that's what the button is for. I think I will do similar then we are both happy.

I appreciate the couple of PMs I got, let's see what happens.

I tried to engage with you in a constructive and positive conversation about the benefits of the union and what shape you would like to see it take. You said someone else to win the election and then went straight into questioning independence. As you’ll see from my posting history I’ve started threads about being apathetic to politics and positives of the union. I’m more of a reader than a poster, but more than happy to see and engage in constructive debate from both sides of the argument.

You on the other hand post almost exclusively on two threads, independence and the SNP. Does Brexit and the long-standing Tories thread not interest you either like the football forum doesn’t? You’re free to post on what you want, and in fairness you are generally good at remaining civil despite being in a minority, I just don’t understand why you only want to talk down independence and the SNP. If those are the only two subjects that interest you, fair enough, but why refuse to get involved in a positive and constructive case for the union. Surely that goes hand in hand alongside questioning independence as there are undoubtedly benefits to the union.

[Since90+2]

She's too clever to fall into that trap, in fact I think she's setting a trap for the UK government. They will probably refuse to grant permission for an independence referendum banking that Sturgeon will then call a wild-card election. My money is on Sturgeon then just using the refusal as political dynamite to win support for independence by exposing Westminster as undemocratic.

I'm not sure to be honest, you could be right but she has repeatedly said she made a pledge to hold a referendum and she will keep to that pledge.

I think the course of action you describe is possibly the best one, but I'm not sure that's the road she'll go down.

[Ozyhibby]

She's too clever to fall into that trap, in fact I think she's setting a trap for the UK government. They will probably refuse to grant permission for an independence referendum banking that Sturgeon will then call a wild-card election. My money is on Sturgeon then just using the refusal as political dynamite to win support for independence by exposing Westminster as undemocratic.

Is it possible she could wind up the Scottish Parliament and call another Scottish Election? Democracy has to find a way here.


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[Since90+2]

Is it possible she could wind up the Scottish Parliament and call another Scottish Election? Democracy has to find a way here.


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I had not thought of that previously but you could be onto something with that. It would require the Unionist parties to engage and if the SNP win again it reinforces the argument for independence and a referendum.

[The_Exile]

Do you never find any of the Hibs or football related part of the board interesting?

Just wanted to touch on this, I've been using this site since the old rivals day so god knows how long that was ago? 15-20 years? I don't really post much on the main football/Hibs part of the site these days as I find it a real slog getting through so much negativity about the team. I do read quite a bit of it at times but I find it increasingly difficult to become fully engaged with discussions about the club and the general state of the game as it's not an entirely good experience I would say. I don't think Hibs.net is unique in that respect, I frequent a few other teams message boards that I take an interest in and it's broadly the same experience. However, what I do find really good about Hibs.net is the fact there are such wide ranging discussions on a variety of subjects. We've got some really learned and clearly well educated people who contribute to non-football stuff and I think a lot of us that have likely been round since the good old days probably follow my routine of reading a bit of the football stuff but only really contribute to The Holy Ground. I mean where else would you find the incredible depression and anxiety thread alongside threads about Icelandic fish farming? :greengrin

[StevieC]

Or people don't think things are nearly as bad as is being made out constantly by the SNP?

No, because the narrative is never “we don’t need Independence” it’s always “what about the currency/pensions/borders” etc.
That suggests that people might be more open to Independence, but are worried about the certainty of things they have now, rather than they are happy with the status quo.



The UK as a whole is massive on renewables and will only get bigger in this area.

Renewable investments in Scotland have been drastically cut back, and promises broken, by the UK government.



Immigration is huge in what way? I'm all for it, but in what way is it more important for Scotland than any other European country?

I never said it was more important for Scotland than other countries?? I said it was a huge part of its future.
And it is.
A UK wide immigration policy doesn’t work for Scotland, it has specific needs in specific industries and requires flexibility.

[Since90+2]

No, because the narrative is never “we don’t need Independence” it’s always “what about the currency/pensions/borders” etc.
That suggests that people might be more open to Independence, but are worried about the certainty of things they have now, rather than they are happy with the status quo.



Renewable investments in Scotland have been drastically cut back, and promises broken, by the UK government.



I never said it was more important for Scotland than other countries?? I said it was a huge part of its future.
And it is.
A UK wide immigration policy doesn’t work for Scotland, it has specific needs in specific industries and requires flexibility.

On your last paragraph - how would that work in practically? If Scotland was to become independent then the right to travel and work freely between Scotland and England would surely remain open to the entire population.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

You can't see a correlation between tory brexit threads and independence. If you are 61, in the years since you can vote you've had tory governments. The only exception was brown/Blair on the right of Labour.

What kind of masochist wants more of that. No left wing government will be in power in the uk in my life. The press, big business and fptp will see to that.

Having the Independence vote was a no brainer for The Tories, If Scotland voted Yes then they were instantly guaranteed a Tory Government for years to come due to the number of winning seats Labour would've instantly missed out on, when Labour announced they were supporting The Union and Scotland ended up voting no, most of those same seats were instantly lost by Labour too, win-win for The Blues really.

[StevieC]

Or chat on the football forum. I still think it’s bizarre that a Hibs fan has no actual interest in talking about Hibs on a Hibs forum.

I would defend him on this.
For a number of years I’ve been posting more on here than on the main forum.

Despite the controversial topics that sprung up on here, I often find it less confrontational here than commenting on a players performance or your view of tactics adopted by a manager 😂

[StevieC]

On your last paragraph - how would that work in practically? If Scotland was to become independent then the right to travel and work freely between Scotland and England would surely remain open to the entire population.

Yes, and that may create problems in England.
But at the moment it’s creating problems in Scotland, and without wanting to sound too selfish, my focus is on resolving the problems in Scotland not worrying about any knock on effect in England 😉

[The Modfather]

I would defend him on this.
For a number of years I’ve been posting more on here than on the main forum.

Despite the controversial topics that sprung up on here, I often find it less confrontational here than commenting on a players performance or your view of tactics adopted by a manager 😂

I don’t disagree with the general points about the main forum. I’m more likely to post on the PM forum than the main forum. I was merely commenting on the fact that in 4 years and a couple of thousand posts it’s unique behaviour for almost all of those posts to be about independence and the SNP and almost none about Hibs. Particularly in a time where we have been bought by a new, American, owner.

Anyway, I’ve made my points and it will become personal if I keep on making them so I’ll leave it there.

[Since90+2]

Yes, and that may create problems in England.
But at the moment it’s creating problems in Scotland, and without wanting to sound too selfish, my focus is on resolving the problems in Scotland not worrying about any knock on effect in England 😉

I think Brexit is both a blessing and a curse for independence. IMO it makes the case for having a referendum unarguable but it has also shown people the issues with breaking up unions and potential border issues, especially if Scotland is in the EU.

It's a strange one as if England had voted to remain the move to independence would be far smoother but at the same time the vote would be even less likely to take place.

[Since90+2]

I don’t disagree with the general points about the main forum. I’m more likely to post on the PM forum than the main forum. I was merely commenting on the fact that in 4 years and a couple of thousand posts it’s unique behaviour for almost all of those posts to be about independence and the SNP and almost none about Hibs. Particularly in a time where we have been bought by a new, American, owner.

Anyway, I’ve made my points and it will become personal if I keep on making them so I’ll leave it there.

Some people are only nominal Hibs fans, not saying that's the case in this instance as I don't know the poster, so might enjoy debating societal issues instead. That's good for the forum IMO, more the merrier.

[James310]

I don’t disagree with the general points about the main forum. I’m more likely to post on the PM forum than the main forum. I was merely commenting on the fact that in 4 years and a couple of thousand posts it’s unique behaviour for almost all of those posts to be about independence and the SNP and almost none about Hibs. Particularly in a time where we have been bought by a new, American, owner.

Anyway, I’ve made my points and it will become personal if I keep on making them so I’ll leave it there.

I follow the team and go to what I would class the big games, had a season ticket for decades and followed them to Europe. Went to Athens in 2001 to find the game was cancelled when I arrived, member of HSL and have my Frank points etc. I just find Scottish football pretty boring now, I don't think people would find what I had to say about Hibs that interesting or different to what everyone else is saying. I would say I have quite a unique view compared to many on this board though. Sorry I disappoint you by not posting what you want me to though. Have a great day.

[Ozyhibby]

On your last paragraph - how would that work in practically? If Scotland was to become independent then the right to travel and work freely between Scotland and England would surely remain open to the entire population.

Same way it works for Ireland I guess?


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[Ozyhibby]

I think Brexit is both a blessing and a curse for independence. IMO it makes the case for having a referendum unarguable but it has also shown people the issues with breaking up unions and potential border issues, especially if Scotland is in the EU.

It's a strange one as if England had voted to remain the move to independence would be far smoother but at the same time the vote would be even less likely to take place.

The hardest part about Brexit by far is the trade negotiations. If Scotland become independent there will be no need for trade negotiations as we will move to the same deal the EU has with the UK. There will need to be checks on freight coming into Scotland but it seems that the UK don’t seem to mind having no checks the other way so that’s good.


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[Eaststand]

I follow the team and go to what I would class the big games, had a season ticket for decades and followed them to Europe. Went to Athens in 2001 to find the game was cancelled when I arrived, member of HSL and have my Frank points etc. I just find Scottish football pretty boring now, I don't think people would find what I had to say about Hibs that interesting or different to what everyone else is saying. I would say I have quite a unique view compared to many on this board though. Sorry I disappoint you by not posting what you want me to though. Have a great day.

Serious question for you or any other Pro Union folks.

What would you say if our Scottish Government decided to no longer recognise the 1707 Act of Union as it just doesn't serve our needs anymore.

Then held an independence referendum within our own country and just chose to ignore what Westminsters opinion was on the topic.

I'm thinking, Scotland being a sovereign country, will of our people and all that.


GGTTH

[James310]

Serious question for you or any other Pro Union folks.

What would you say if our Scottish Government decided to no longer recognise the 1707 Act of Union as it just doesn't serve our needs anymore.

Then held an independence referendum within our own country and just chose to ignore what Westminsters opinion was on the topic.

I'm thinking, Scotland being a sovereign country, will of our people and all that.


GGTTH

I am not really sure of the ins and outs of the Act of Union. Would that action get the support of the majority of people in Scotland? Highly unlikely I would say. Is it legal? Who would Independence be negotiated with if Westminster did not recognise it? Would the EU and UN recognise it?

So to be honest I don't know, just more questions.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am not really sure of the ins and outs of the Act of Union. Would that action get the support of the majority of people in Scotland? Highly unlikely I would say. Is it legal? Who would Independence be negotiated with if Westminster did not recognise it? Would the EU and UN recognise it?

So to be honest I don't know, just more questions.

I don't know everything about the act of union either, but as far as I recall it was based on the claims on the crown along religious lines, Catholic James against protestant William in 1680s.

The act of union in 1707 was agreed to prevent further claims from the Stuart dynasty. This is the Parcel of Rogues that sold Scotland for English Gold. The signatories rewarded with titles and land.


I've now gone down the rabbit hole!!!

Wait for it, tories of the time opposed the union. 😂

[Eaststand]

I am not really sure of the ins and outs of the Act of Union. Would that action get the support of the majority of people in Scotland? Highly unlikely I would say. Is it legal? Who would Independence be negotiated with if Westminster did not recognise it? Would the EU and UN recognise it?

So to be honest I don't know, just more questions.

Aye, I'd agree it certainly does raise lots of questions.
I'm no expert on this, but my understanding is that there was no vote for the 1707 act of Union, both the Scottish and English parliament's with lots of influence from Royalty and associated hangers on simply deciding to dissolve the Scottish Parliament to enable the act of union. With lots of bribery, land and titles given to a very select few who signed away Scotland's government, much like the way today's Westminster Government operates.

So although I'll admit to raising this question in a slightly playful manner, it strikes me as possible we can simply decide the act is so old and outdated it no longer meets the needs of Scotland's people.
It is surely odd to most fair minded people that the Westminster Parliament can choose which International Treaties or agreements can be broken by them at a whim, and which are thought to be cast in stone forever.

Personally, I see no reason why we Scots should need to ask another Parliament for any right to hold a referendum when we have our own Pro independence Scottish Parliament governing our Country.

GGTTH

[Kato]

Imagine what Labour could do in an Indy Scotland? No thanks. It gives me the absolute fear.





What are you scared of?

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[Killiehibbie]

I don't know everything about the act of union either, but as far as I recall it was based on the claims on the crown along religious lines, Catholic James against protestant William in 1680s.

The act of union in 1707 was agreed to prevent further claims from the Stuart dynasty. This is the Parcel of Rogues that sold Scotland for English Gold. The signatories rewarded with titles and land.


I've now gone down the rabbit hole!!!

Wait for it, tories of the time opposed the union. 😂

The story we were told at school was Darien left us skint and we've been living off charity ever since.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/288924848_1972493296271646_3717513257484421675_n.j pg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=Lz81zyUH_4IAX-XquCy&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=00_AT_kRi_jo0e37dfkJSshO8NycaHqVX4ai6vkmQaGv61q 1g&oe=62B3E36B



well said, some just can't grasp it :agree:

Dr Lee John Curley on Twitter: "I was no in 2014! I was a kid born in 92, brought up in a time of Cool Britannia! In 2023, I will vote yes! It no longer makes sense to be in a union that does not respect Scotlands wishes, it’s people or it’s potential." / Twitter (https://twitter.com/Psycurlogy/status/1538544291898875906?s=19&fbclid=IwAR1YF_WBLsJg2Jd82C3mgwQlrTfq-PAyqjU9NNmTI6tqy-78cCdLHTvWXok)

[The Tubs]

Aye, I'd agree it certainly does raise lots of questions.
I'm no expert on this, but my understanding is that there was no vote for the 1707 act of Union, both the Scottish and English parliament's with lots of influence from Royalty and associated hangers on simply deciding to dissolve the Scottish Parliament to enable the act of union. With lots of bribery, land and titles given to a very select few who signed away Scotland's government, much like the way today's Westminster Government operates.

So although I'll admit to raising this question in a slightly playful manner, it strikes me as possible we can simply decide the act is so old and outdated it no longer meets the needs of Scotland's people.
It is surely odd to most fair minded people that the Westminster Parliament can choose which International Treaties or agreements can be broken by them at a whim, and which are thought to be cast in stone forever.

Personally, I see no reason why we Scots should need to ask another Parliament for any right to hold a referendum when we have our own Pro independence Scottish Parliament governing our Country.

GGTTH

That's totally how I see it. The English should have the right to do exactly the same. The only problem I see is the Scots' lack of faith in their own abilities.

[Just Alf]

Aye, I'd agree it certainly does raise lots of questions.
I'm no expert on this, but my understanding is that there was no vote for the 1707 act of Union, both the Scottish and English parliament's with lots of influence from Royalty and associated hangers on simply deciding to dissolve the Scottish Parliament to enable the act of union. With lots of bribery, land and titles given to a very select few who signed away Scotland's government, much like the way today's Westminster Government operates.

So although I'll admit to raising this question in a slightly playful manner, it strikes me as possible we can simply decide the act is so old and outdated it no longer meets the needs of Scotland's people.
It is surely odd to most fair minded people that the Westminster Parliament can choose which International Treaties or agreements can be broken by them at a whim, and which are thought to be cast in stone forever.

Personally, I see no reason why we Scots should need to ask another Parliament for any right to hold a referendum when we have our own Pro independence Scottish Parliament governing our Country.

GGTTH
That's totally how I see it. The English should have the right to do exactly the same. The only problem I see is the Scots' lack of faith in their own abilities.Sorry to put a dampner on it. I'm sure I read that subsequent treaties and legislation built on the original act so in and of itself it doesn't have a bearing on the current UK situation.

Sorry!

(A bit the magna Carter no longer underpinning current law)

Ps... tried to do a quick Google and can't find it :-/

[JeMeSouviens]

That's totally how I see it. The English should have the right to do exactly the same. The only problem I see is the Scots' lack of faith in their own abilities.

Too simplistic.

About 10% of our population was born elsewhere in the UK and they are understandably heavily pro-Union. Another big chunk is existentially British. They may have a regional pride in Scotland ("I'm a proud Scot but ...") but their country is Britain and there's nothing anyone could say or do that would change that. Those 2 groups probably account for 1/3 or so of the electorate that are a built in guaranteed NO vote.

So for Yes to get a majority, you're talking achieving 50/67 = about 75% of actually susceptible voters. For a comfortable majority, even more. It's quite a tall order.

[Berwickhibby]

Perhaps this time ..all Scots living in the UK will get the opportunity to vote.

[Steven79]

Perhaps this time ..all Scots living in the UK will get the opportunity to vote.Why should they get to vote if they don't live in Scotland?



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[Berwickhibby]

Why should they get to vote if they don't live in Scotland?



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Because a lot of Scots are down South due better employment opportunities, so the likes of John McGinn cannot vote on their future.

[SHODAN]

Perhaps this time ..all Scots living in the UK will get the opportunity to vote.

And everyone of voting age within Scotland too?

[Just Alf]

Why should they get to vote if they don't live in Scotland?



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Because a lot of Scots are down South due better employment opportunities, so the likes of John McGinn cannot vote on their future.I can see the thinking from both sides... on balance though I personally feel that anyone who's living in Scotland gets to vote, those that don't.. don't.
In the example above JM will likely come back but there's many (half my family!) will never consider moving back to Scotland and I don't think it's fair they could have an impact on those that do live here.

[Berwickhibby]

I can see the thinking from both sides... on balance though I personally feel that anyone who's living in Scotland gets to vote, those that don't.. don't.
In the example above JM will likely come back but there's many (half my family!) will never consider moving back to Scotland and I don't think it's fair they could have an impact on those that do live here.

I worked most of my adult life outside Scotland but always with the intention to return.

[Since90+2]

I worked most of my adult life outside Scotland but always with the intention to return.

How would that even work in practical terms? There will be Scottish born people all over the world.

[degenerated]

That's totally how I see it. The English should have the right to do exactly the same. The only problem I see is the Scots' lack of faith in their own abilities.That's the effect of 300 plus years of conditioning.

[Berwickhibby]

How would that even work in practical terms? There will be Scottish born people all over the world.

That’s why I suggested UK …I believe if people are Scottish they should be able to apply to vote, should there be another referendum

[Ozyhibby]

That’s why I suggested UK …I believe if people are Scottish they should be able to apply to vote, should there be another referendum

It’s not going to happen. The franchise was set last time and any attempt to gerrymander it to gain a favourable result for either side will be seen for what it is.
Would you be in favour of only people born in Scotland getting to vote? If that had been the case in 2014 then Yes would have won and we would be independent now.


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[Berwickhibby]

It’s not going to happen. The franchise was set last time and any attempt to gerrymander it to gain a favourable result for either side will be seen for what it is.
Would you be in favour of only people born in Scotland getting to vote? If that had been the case in 2014 then Yes would have won and we would be independent now.


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I don’t doubt what you say, but it’s a first that I have heard that ‘No Thanks’ relied on immigrant voters to get the result.

[Just Alf]

I don’t doubt what you say, but it’s a first that I have heard that ‘No Thanks’ relied on immigrant voters to get the result.I'd heard it but not seen anything backing it up.....

I mentioned my family earlier, did a little thinking on it.. 8 are pro indy despite having no desire to return (even if Scotland was independent)

...... and 3 are totally rabid remainers ... they live in the North East and voted FOR Brexit... any discussions I've had about it with them is that they don't want an English/Scottish border.. that's it, they don't seem to have anything positive or negative to say on the matter otherwise.

Edit: and they totally hate the SNP/"nippy" because they want Scottish independence... don't think I've ever heard them mention her name... ever... as I say... 'rabid'!

[JeMeSouviens]

I don’t doubt what you say, but it’s a first that I have heard that ‘No Thanks’ relied on immigrant voters to get the result.

https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/scottishreferendumstudy/files/2015/03/Scottish-Referendum-Study-27-March-2015.pdf

According to that (and it should be reasonably accurate, the sample size is large) Scots born voted 53-47 for Indy. I'm very glad that nobody has tried to make a big deal out of it and I'm much more comfortable with people that live here getting a say versus some kind of ethnicity test.

[Stairway 2 7]

https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/scottishreferendumstudy/files/2015/03/Scottish-Referendum-Study-27-March-2015.pdf

According to that (and it should be reasonably accurate, the sample size is large) Scots born voted 53-47 for Indy. I'm very glad that nobody has tried to make a big deal out of it and I'm much more comfortable with people that live here getting a say versus some kind of ethnicity test.

Would a % of non Scots born be from rest of the uk

[Stairway 2 7]

Would a % of non Scots born be from rest of the uk

Checked one source has it at. 800,000 non Scots born living in Scotland. Non-Scottish UK-born population 513,522

Everyone living in Scotland should get a vote obviously. But if the tories can make up stuff without proof and put in on a bus. I'm sticking, the English cost us the independence vote, on the side of the next lrt I see

[Ozyhibby]

https://blogs.sps.ed.ac.uk/scottishreferendumstudy/files/2015/03/Scottish-Referendum-Study-27-March-2015.pdf

According to that (and it should be reasonably accurate, the sample size is large) Scots born voted 53-47 for Indy. I'm very glad that nobody has tried to make a big deal out of it and I'm much more comfortable with people that live here getting a say versus some kind of ethnicity test.

Absolutely. It should always be a matter for the people who live here. Bringing in ethnicity to either side of this debate would be a disgrace.


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[Stairway 2 7]

If the Greens and the SNP get over the line and can make a coalition, make a majority, get the votes in the Parliament, then they’ll vote through a referendum, and that’s what democracy’s all about. It’s perfectly simple.”

—Ruth Davidson MSP, Scottish Tory Leader, 2011.

[ronaldo7]

That's us told then...Just suck it up and go with the programme.

THE Scottish Secretary has told SNP MP Deidre Brock to “suck it up and go with the programme” as she expressed concerns over Westminster bypassing the devolution settlement.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20223362.alister-jack-tells-snp-mp-suck-up-uk-bypasses-scottish-parliament/

[grunt]

THE Scottish Secretary has told SNP MP Deidre Brock to “suck it up and go with the programme” as she expressed concerns over Westminster bypassing the devolution settlement.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20223362.alister-jack-tells-snp-mp-suck-up-uk-bypasses-scottish-parliament/
Just came here to post the same thing. That's the UK Gov Secretary of State for Scotland there, telling the elected representative of the Scottish Government to "suck it up" when she criticised the UK Gov for providing funds direct to Edinburgh Council, over the heads of the Scottish Gov.

Completely ignoring Scottish devolution.

#YouYesYet?

[JimBHibees]

Just came here to post the same thing. That's the UK Gov Secretary of State for Scotland there, telling the elected representative of the Scottish Government to "suck it up" when she criticised the UK Gov for providing funds direct to Edinburgh Council, over the heads of the Scottish Gov.

Completely ignoring Scottish devolution.

#YouYesYet?

Incredible. Is Edinburgh council led by a Labour Tory coalition?

[Ozyhibby]

Incredible. Is Edinburgh council led by a Labour Tory coalition?

Yes


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[James310]

Incredible. Is Edinburgh council led by a Labour Tory coalition?

SNPs Adam McVey who was council leader at the time the funding was announced.

Council leader Adam McVey said:

"We are pleased to see this funding to help support our vision for a new Granton waterfront. Our plans will enhance the City’s coastline and deliver sustainment development with culture, green space and local education and employment at its heart. Restoring the gas holder for public use will undoubtedly help attract future investment to regenerate the area and the Council is committed to continue to work with both The UK and Scottish Governments as well and other key partners in delivering the maximum benefit for our communities.

Do any posters live in Granton? Are they outraged that money is being spent improving and regenerating the area? Do they really care where it comes from?

[Ozyhibby]

SNPs Adam McVey who was council leader at the time the funding was announced.

Council leader Adam McVey said:

"We are pleased to see this funding to help support our vision for a new Granton waterfront. Our plans will enhance the City’s coastline and deliver sustainment development with culture, green space and local education and employment at its heart. Restoring the gas holder for public use will undoubtedly help attract future investment to regenerate the area and the Council is committed to continue to work with both The UK and Scottish Governments as well and other key partners in delivering the maximum benefit for our communities.

Do any posters live in Granton? Are they outraged that money is being spent improving and regenerating the area? Do they really care where it comes from?

You happy to see the end of devolution?


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[James310]

You happy to see the end of devolution?


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Well funnily enough not everyone sees it like that, like the SNPs Adam McVey who welcomed the money.

Do you think the people of Granton will be out protesting at the end of devolution and asking for the millions of pounds being spent in their local area to be immediately stopped? No, me neither.

[Ozyhibby]

Well funnily enough not everyone sees it like that, like the SNPs Adam McVey who welcomed the money.

Do you think the people of Granton will be out protesting at the end of devolution and asking for the millions of pounds being spent in their local area to be immediately stopped? No, me neither.

Just because Granton is a winner doesn’t mean it’s the right decision. Maybe there are other areas of Scotland who need it more than Granton. The fact is, we voted in 1997 for decision like this to be taken locally at Holyrood so that it was the people who lived here decided where our priorities lie.


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[hibsbollah]

That's us told then...Just suck it up and go with the programme.

THE Scottish Secretary has told SNP MP Deidre Brock to “suck it up and go with the programme” as she expressed concerns over Westminster bypassing the devolution settlement.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20223362.alister-jack-tells-snp-mp-suck-up-uk-bypasses-scottish-parliament/

Leaving aside the politics, it’s just complete wanton destruction of the English language :boo hoo: Even if he was using modern American office lingo it’s ‘get with the programme’, not ‘go with the programme’, and ‘suck it up’ means to tolerate a specifically unpleasant situation, according to the urban dictionary. Jack was trying to argue the opposite. But more fundamentally, only fannies use terms like that.

[Steven79]

If the Greens and the SNP get over the line and can make a coalition, make a majority, get the votes in the Parliament, then they’ll vote through a referendum, and that’s what democracy’s all about. It’s perfectly simple.”

—Ruth Davidson MSP, Scottish Tory Leader, 2011.Wasn't that from 2007?

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[James310]

Just because Granton is a winner doesn’t mean it’s the right decision. Maybe there are other areas of Scotland who need it more than Granton. The fact is, we voted in 1997 for decision like this to be taken locally at Holyrood so that it was the people who lived here decided where our priorities lie.


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My understanding is it was the council who requested the funds so the decision was still made locally and they decided it was a priority. The UK Gov never solely identified Granton themselves and did it alone.

https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/13345/council-leaders-welcome-uk-government-levelling-up-funding-to-help-unlock-further-investment-in-1-3bn-new-sustainable-coastal-town

You could argue the local council are closer to the needs of the local people that the Scottish Parliament.

[Ozyhibby]

My understanding is it was the council who requested the funds so the decision was still made locally and they decided it was a priority. The UK Gov never solely identified Granton themselves and did it alone.

https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/13345/council-leaders-welcome-uk-government-levelling-up-funding-to-help-unlock-further-investment-in-1-3bn-new-sustainable-coastal-town

The council would not be doing their job if they didn’t grab every penny available to them. It maybe that the SG would have decided that the money might have been better spent in Midlothian though. And that’s the system of govt we voted for in 1997. If we wanted London deciding how to allocate this money then we would have voted accordingly in 1997.


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[ronaldo7]

My understanding is it was the council who requested the funds so the decision was still made locally and they decided it was a priority. The UK Gov never solely identified Granton themselves and did it alone.

https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/13345/council-leaders-welcome-uk-government-levelling-up-funding-to-help-unlock-further-investment-in-1-3bn-new-sustainable-coastal-town

You could argue the local council are closer to the needs of the local people that the Scottish Parliament.

The Scottish Government are closer than the Westminster Government. :aok:

We're now supposed to rejoice in the money being replaced from the Eu structural funds, which, if the Tories have their way will not replace the full amounts.

The Scottish Government have been consulting on these issues for years, but all of a sudden, the Internal market bill comes forth, and runs through the devolution settlement.

Take a look at this map in the link and see where the priority places are in Scotland for the Community renewal funds. Granton isn't one of them.

This is not only happening in Scotland. The Welsh government are up in arms about it too.

https://spice-spotlight.scot/2021/06/02/what-is-happening-with-the-new-shared-prosperity-fund/

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1538104090739322880?s=12

Interesting clip of Murdo Fraser talking about the things ‘we’ll lose’ if we become independent. What he really means is things UK will lose. Maybe he’s switching to Yes?


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[Kato]

The council would not be doing their job if they didn’t grab every penny available to them. It maybe that the SG would have decided that the money might have been better spent in Midlothian though. And that’s the system of govt we voted for in 1997. If we wanted London deciding how to allocate this money then we would have voted accordingly in 1997.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkDemocratic decisions? That's the old way of doing things. Now it's a grab bag of favouritism, bribery and "get in the queue". Makes it easier for grifts like the VIP contracts and "just let forget that 9 billion that's gone missing" type stuff.

Get with the sucking it up programme.

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[Stairway 2 7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61887144?at_custom2=facebook_page&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_campaign=64&at_custom4=43693E10-F189-11EC-81B2-1EC731EBDC67&at_medium=custom7&at_custom3=BBC+Scotland+News

Nicola Sturgeon is to set out details next week of how she plans to hold a second referendum on Scottish independence.

The first minister will make a statement in the Scottish Parliament on Tuesday 28 June.

[JeMeSouviens]

Free e-book on indy with lots of analysis from people who potentially know wtf they're talking about. Probably won't catch on. :rolleyes:

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2021-03/Scotlands-New-Choice.pdf

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61887144?at_custom2=facebook_page&at_custom1=%5Bpost+type%5D&at_campaign=64&at_custom4=43693E10-F189-11EC-81B2-1EC731EBDC67&at_medium=custom7&at_custom3=BBC+Scotland+News

Nicola Sturgeon is to set out details next week of how she plans to hold a second referendum on Scottish independence.

The first minister will make a statement in the Scottish Parliament on Tuesday 28 June.

SNP’s dirty secret: it needs Tories for victory | Scotland | The Times (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dfc9adb0-f1a4-11ec-b7b8-d1bfbe7f1c7e?shareToken=d55d4ab2e0fc772c8ba73e76ea 9acaf3)

Not so sure it's a 'dirty secret', but it certainly feels like they're trying to engineer some sort of vote before the next general election. I'm also not so sure either Johnson or Starmer will be the leaders of their respective parties by then though.

[Callum_62]

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMNjheAh7/?k=1

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[James310]

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMNjheAh7/?k=1

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Shame most of what she says in utter garbage.

For a start the grid in Scotland is not owned by a company in London, it's owned by SSE and Scottish Power. SSE is Scottish based and Scottish Power is owned by Spanish company Iberdrola.

England produced 3 times as much renewable energy than Scotland in 2020. We are also not paying the highest standing charges in the UK, they are in the SW of England.

I get that misinformation is on both sides of the debate and I am unsure if she has done this deliberately or just doesn't know.

[Berwickhibby]

Shame most of what she says in utter garbage.

For a start the grid in Scotland is not owned by a company in London, it's owned by SSE and Scottish Power. SSE is Scottish based and Scottish Power is owned by Spanish company Iberdrola.

England produced 3 times as much renewable energy than Scotland in 2020. We are also not paying the highest standing charges in the UK, they are in the SW of England.

I get that misinformation is on both sides of the debate and I am unsure if she has done this deliberately or just doesn't know.

James you have been warned before about applying facts and truth’s …. Pack it in :greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

[Since90+2]

James you have been warned before about applying facts and truth’s …. Pack it in :greengrin:greengrin:greengrin

Let's see if what is being claimed is correct. The independence debate needs to the remove emotional reactions and centre on actual facts.

I've no idea if what the poster has claimed is correct or not, but I'm sure the person who originally posted along the link will be along to back up the claims, or withdraw then if not. That's the only basis that this debate can give people the actual factual information they need to make a reasoned choice.

[Callum_62]

Shame most of what she says in utter garbage.

For a start the grid in Scotland is not owned by a company in London, it's owned by SSE and Scottish Power. SSE is Scottish based and Scottish Power is owned by Spanish company Iberdrola.

England produced 3 times as much renewable energy than Scotland in 2020. We are also not paying the highest standing charges in the UK, they are in the SW of England.

I get that misinformation is on both sides of the debate and I am unsure if she has done this deliberately or just doesn't know.You've obviously found the figures somewhere but what changed in 2020 from the below?

IMPACT ON RENEWABLES
During 2019, renewable generation reached 37% of total generation for the UK as a whole, representing:

33% in England;
61% in Scotland;
27% in Wales; and
45% in Northern Ireland.
This meant that in 2019 Scotland, with approximately 8% of the UK’s population, produced 25% of its renewable electricity. Scotland is, therefore, currently leading the way in terms of renewables generation, particularly with respect to wind power.

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[James310]

Let's see if what is being claimed is correct. The independence debate needs to the remove emotional reactions and centre on actual facts.

I've no idea if what the poster has claimed is correct or not, but I'm sure the person who originally posted along the link will be along to back up the claims, or withdraw then if not. That's the only basis that this debate can give people the actual factual information they need to make a reasoned choice.

All debunked on this Twitter thread.

https://twitter.com/staylorish/status/1537740276189601792?t=qNhckOAxIjfaK-MHHlQECA&s=19


Again on here there is a tendency to see who wrote an article or who tweeted some information and immediately dismiss it because of who tweeted it. So yes the guy that tweeted this is against Independence, he works for a UK think tank. But that's then his job to dispel the nationalist myths. So I expect some will choose to ignore because it's from this guy but he backs up everything he says with facts and evidence.

[Since90+2]

You've obviously found the figures somewhere but what changed in 2020 from the below?

IMPACT ON RENEWABLES
During 2019, renewable generation reached 37% of total generation for the UK as a whole, representing:

33% in England;
61% in Scotland;
27% in Wales; and
45% in Northern Ireland.
This meant that in 2019 Scotland, with approximately 8% of the UK’s population, produced 25% of its renewable electricity. Scotland is, therefore, currently leading the way in terms of renewables generation, particularly with respect to wind power.

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I've noticed you've only responded to one of the points raised. Is it because you don't actually know or what the poster has claimed is correct in relation to them?

[James310]

You've obviously found the figures somewhere but what changed in 2020 from the below?

IMPACT ON RENEWABLES
During 2019, renewable generation reached 37% of total generation for the UK as a whole, representing:

33% in England;
61% in Scotland;
27% in Wales; and
45% in Northern Ireland.
This meant that in 2019 Scotland, with approximately 8% of the UK’s population, produced 25% of its renewable electricity. Scotland is, therefore, currently leading the way in terms of renewables generation, particularly with respect to wind power.

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No idea where those figures come from. But looking at the government documents referenced in the tweet I don't see it. It could be measuring different things?

I suspect like most things these statistics can say what you want them to say. But I don't think Lesley Riddoch knows what she is talking about.

[Stairway 2 7]

You've obviously found the figures somewhere but what changed in 2020 from the below?

IMPACT ON RENEWABLES
During 2019, renewable generation reached 37% of total generation for the UK as a whole, representing:

33% in England;
61% in Scotland;
27% in Wales; and
45% in Northern Ireland.
This meant that in 2019 Scotland, with approximately 8% of the UK’s population, produced 25% of its renewable electricity. Scotland is, therefore, currently leading the way in terms of renewables generation, particularly with respect to wind power.

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I think that just means Scotland produced a higher % of its energy from renewables than the rest. But England produced more as a total

[James310]

I think that just means Scotland produced a higher % of its energy from renewables than the rest. But England produced more as a total

Could be yes, in that video she says "we produce the most renewable energy" when we clearly don't.

[Callum_62]

I've noticed you've only responded to one of the points raised. Is it because you don't actually know or what the poster has claimed is correct in relation to them?On the standing charge

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/average-cost-electricity-kwh-uk#:~:text=Residents%20of%20North%20Scotland%20pay ,how%20much%20energy%20you%20use.

Standing (Fixed) Charges for Electricity in the UK
Residents of North Scotland pay the highest standing charges in the UK: £99.28 per year, which is 17.3% more than the UK average. A standing charge is like the line charge on your telephone—it's a fixed cost you'll pay regardless of how much energy you use.

The 2nd highest standing charges are in Yorkshire (£92.36) and the North East (£90.00).

Northern Ireland is the only area in the UK where you don't pay a standing charge on standard electricity contracts (however, time-of-use contracts like Economy 7 may have a standing charge in NI).


*



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[Callum_62]

Could be yes, in that video she says "we produce the most renewable energy" when we clearly don't.I think that's Likely actually

Producing 25 percent (or so) of the UKs renewables with 8 percent of the population ain't bad going

Leading the way some may say [emoji6]



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[James310]

On the standing charge

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/average-cost-electricity-kwh-uk#:~:text=Residents%20of%20North%20Scotland%20pay ,how%20much%20energy%20you%20use.

Standing (Fixed) Charges for Electricity in the UK
Residents of North Scotland pay the highest standing charges in the UK: £99.28 per year, which is 17.3% more than the UK average. A standing charge is like the line charge on your telephone—it's a fixed cost you'll pay regardless of how much energy you use.

The 2nd highest standing charges are in Yorkshire (£92.36) and the North East (£90.00).

Northern Ireland is the only area in the UK where you don't pay a standing charge on standard electricity contracts (however, time-of-use contracts like Economy 7 may have a standing charge in NI).


*



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There are different types of standing charges, standard tariffs, prepayment tariffs etc.

As I say you can splice and dice this but what Lesley Riddoch says doesn't come with this kind of context, she just says things as though they are all facts and true but as we can see it's never as simple as that.

[James310]

I think that's Likely actually

Producing 25 percent (or so) of the UKs renewables with 8 percent of the population ain't bad going

Leading the way some may say [emoji6]



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I am not denying Scotland is a world leader, just that what she said wasn't true.

[Callum_62]

There are different types of standing charges, standard tariffs, prepayment tariffs etc.

As I say you can splice and dice this but what Lesley Riddoch says doesn't come with this kind of context, she just says things as though they are all facts and true but as we can see it's never as simple as that.The text says
'Residents of North Scotland pay the highest standing charges in the UK:'

The video says

'Scots are paying the highest standing charges in Britain'

Is that not a fact then?

You are ofcourse correct in that stats can be altered and cut to suit the argument you are pushing

40 new hospitals and counting staff who don't leave as new nurses for example

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[James310]

The text says
'Residents of North Scotland pay the highest standing charges in the UK:'

The video says

'Scots are paying the highest standing charges in Britain'

Is that not a fact then?

You are ofcourse correct in that stats can be altered and cut to suit the argument you are pushing

40 new hospitals and counting staff who don't leave as new nurses for example

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Which tariff we talking about? Standard? Prepayment etc. If Standard then no, as the referenced documents show.

Agreed you can be selective and pick what suits your narrative. Unfortunately all politicians and all parties do it, as your other example shows.

[lapsedhibee]

Which tariff we talking about? Standard? Prepayment etc. If Standard then no, as the referenced documents show.

Agreed you can be selective and pick what suits your narrative. Unfortunately all politicians and all parties do it, as your other example shows.

His other example is not so much about being selective with statistics, but rather about being a lying ******* .

[cabbageandribs1875]

just imagine if..eh

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FV4Zn_QXgAQka_4?format=jpg&name=900x900

[cabbageandribs1875]

well said prof.

(1) Independent Voices ������������������ on Twitter: "PROFESSOR MARK BLYTH ‘I keep getting asked about my views on Scottish independence. So here it is. I'm for it. Why? Because the UK growth model is unsustainable and Scotland can do better than simply subsist on inter-regional transfers.' #indyref2 https://t.co/xbzl1xv7Ip" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/Celebs4indy/status/1539973998687137794?s=19&fbclid=IwAR3OzrBvOp6TQu9JsdsDA3vz6kfIh1r3wTmLP3obl mwwfsWSV4QQnf3wtWE)

‘I keep getting asked about my views on Scottish independence. So here it is. I'm for it. Why? Because the UK growth model is unsustainable and Scotland can do better than simply subsist on inter-regional transfers.'

[Ozyhibby]

well said prof.

(1) Independent Voices ������������������ on Twitter: "PROFESSOR MARK BLYTH ‘I keep getting asked about my views on Scottish independence. So here it is. I'm for it. Why? Because the UK growth model is unsustainable and Scotland can do better than simply subsist on inter-regional transfers.' #indyref2 https://t.co/xbzl1xv7Ip" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/Celebs4indy/status/1539973998687137794?s=19&fbclid=IwAR3OzrBvOp6TQu9JsdsDA3vz6kfIh1r3wTmLP3obl mwwfsWSV4QQnf3wtWE)

‘I keep getting asked about my views on Scottish independence. So here it is. I'm for it. Why? Because the UK growth model is unsustainable and Scotland can do better than simply subsist on inter-regional transfers.'

I think he’s a bit of a heavy weight in the world of economics so that’s a great endorsement.


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[James310]

well said prof.

(1) Independent Voices ������������������ on Twitter: "PROFESSOR MARK BLYTH ‘I keep getting asked about my views on Scottish independence. So here it is. I'm for it. Why? Because the UK growth model is unsustainable and Scotland can do better than simply subsist on inter-regional transfers.' #indyref2 https://t.co/xbzl1xv7Ip" / Twitter (https://twitter.com/Celebs4indy/status/1539973998687137794?s=19&fbclid=IwAR3OzrBvOp6TQu9JsdsDA3vz6kfIh1r3wTmLP3obl mwwfsWSV4QQnf3wtWE)

‘I keep getting asked about my views on Scottish independence. So here it is. I'm for it. Why? Because the UK growth model is unsustainable and Scotland can do better than simply subsist on inter-regional transfers.'

If you really rate Mark Blyth I wonder if you agree with some of this other comments?

Like Scottish Independence would be Brexit x 10.

"If your argument that we need to do this is because of Brexit, then Scotland separating from England is the biggest Brexit in history… it’s Brexit times ten.”

He also says on Independence winning on a very narrow vote.

"You'll have massive capital flight out of Scotland, .. economically it will be very damaging, trying to do Independence under those conditions is a really bad idea"

On the border.

"Your about to put barriers in between that (trade) for 60% of your exports, that's going to hurt "

And then he thinks there is 20 years of economic upheaval after Independence.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19561664.nicola-sturgeons-economic-adviser-warns-20-year-economic-transition-independence/?ref=twtrec

[James310]

I think he’s a bit of a heavy weight in the world of economics so that’s a great endorsement.


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I certainly admire his honesty and the realism he brings to the debate.

[Ozyhibby]

If you really rate Mark Blyth I wonder if you agree with some of this other comments?

Like Scottish Independence would be Brexit x 10.

"If your argument that we need to do this is because of Brexit, then Scotland separating from England is the biggest Brexit in history… it’s Brexit times ten.”

He also says on Independence winning on a very narrow vote.

"You'll have massive capital flight out of Scotland, .. economically it will be very damaging, trying to do Independence under those conditions is a really bad idea"

On the border.

"Your about to put barriers in between that (trade) for 60% of your exports, that's going to hurt "

And then he thinks there is 20 years of economic upheaval after Independence.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19561664.nicola-sturgeons-economic-adviser-warns-20-year-economic-transition-independence/?ref=twtrec

Good article and not much to disagree about. There will be a transition and it might take 20 years but it will be very much worth it.[emoji106]


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[James310]

Good article and not much to disagree about. There will be a transition and it might take 20 years but it will be very much worth it.[emoji106]


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It a different approach to 2014 where it was nearly all sunshine and light and everything would be better. It sounds a bit Brexity to say we will have economic upheaval and it might last a few decades but it will be worth it. I would question if people and families with jobs and bills to pay would think that upheaval is worth it. At what point do you question the course of action you are taking if it means dealing with a couple of decades of pain.

Not expecting an answer, just an observation.

[ronaldo7]

It a different approach to 2014 where it was nearly all sunshine and light and everything would be better. It sounds a bit Brexity to say we will have economic upheaval and it might last a few decades but it will be worth it. I would question if people and families with jobs and bills to pay would think that upheaval is worth it. At what point do you question the course of action you are taking if it means dealing with a couple of decades of pain.

Not expecting an answer, just an observation.

The last 12 years of Tory austerity have gone swimmingly though.

Let's not have another 12.

Just an observation.

[Just Alf]

It a different approach to 2014 where it was nearly all sunshine and light and everything would be better. It sounds a bit Brexity to say we will have economic upheaval and it might last a few decades but it will be worth it. I would question if people and families with jobs and bills to pay would think that upheaval is worth it. At what point do you question the course of action you are taking if it means dealing with a couple of decades of pain.

Not expecting an answer, just an observation.Fair comment,

I look to Northern Ireland and see how they're performing, most successful area in the UK other than London.
They're part of the UK with good access to the EU.

Assuming (I know I know!) an iScotland gets back into the EU... or even the common trading area then i can easily imagine Scotland performing similarly.

As an aside, I can't believe there's folks in NI want to derail that prosperity purely for political reasons.

[James310]

The last 12 years of Tory austerity have gone swimmingly though.

Let's not have another 12.

Just an observation.

Well if the Scottish Government Growth Commission is still the plan then it will be.

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/13072


Maybe yet another plan is on it's way in these series of papers we are promised.

[Ozyhibby]

It a different approach to 2014 where it was nearly all sunshine and light and everything would be better. It sounds a bit Brexity to say we will have economic upheaval and it might last a few decades but it will be worth it. I would question if people and families with jobs and bills to pay would think that upheaval is worth it. At what point do you question the course of action you are taking if it means dealing with a couple of decades of pain.

Not expecting an answer, just an observation.

The good thing is there won’t be that much in the way of trade negotiation. That’s all handled by the EU. It’s more just a divvying up of assets and separation of govt functions. Individual companies will have costs associated with the process as well.
A bonus will be that moving back into the SM will offset a lot of these costs. There is no status quo anymore. The UK is on a downward spiral right now. We can possibly minimise that by moving back into the EU and then gradually start to bring our living standards up to those of our neighbours.


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[James310]

The good thing is there won’t be that much in the way of trade negotiation. That’s all handled by the EU. It’s more just a divvying up of assets and separation of govt functions. Individual companies will have costs associated with the process as well.
A bonus will be that moving back into the SM will offset a lot of these costs. There is no status quo anymore. The UK is on a downward spiral right now. We can possibly minimise that by moving back into the EU and then gradually start to bring our living standards up to those of our neighbours.


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Ok, but that's contradictory to what Mark Blyth was saying, someone you called an economic heavy weight 20 minutes ago. I guess you believe the things you like he says but dismiss the things you don't like.he says.

[ronaldo7]

Well if the Scottish Government Growth Commission is still the plan then it will be.

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/13072


Maybe yet another plan is on it's way in these series if papers we are promised.

Still waiting on that positive case for the union. 😁

[James310]

Still waiting on that positive case for the union. 😁

Nice change of subject.

I believe I gave some a few pages back, things like shared currency and central bank, open and free trade with our largest trading neighbors, highest public spending in the UK etc.

[ronaldo7]

Nice change of subject.

I believe I gave some a few pages back, things like shared currency and central bank, open and free trade with our largest trading neighbors, highest public spending in the UK etc.


Sorry, must have missed it. It was so comprehensive.

😂😂

[Since90+2]

Nice change of subject.

I believe I gave some a few pages back, things like shared currency and central bank, open and free trade with our largest trading neighbors, highest public spending in the UK etc.

You certainly seem to be running rings around a few independence supporters I'll give you that

[ronaldo7]

You certainly seem to be running rings around a few independence supporters I'll give you that

Sure is. It's like reading the times. Wealth distribution has gone off the radar. 😆

[Ozyhibby]

Ok, but that's contradictory to what Mark Blyth was saying, someone you called an economic heavy weight 20 minutes ago. I guess you believe the things you like he says but dismiss the things you don't like.he says.

Nobody can tell exactly how Scotland will look after independence. Not me, not Mark Blyth, not Nicola Sturgeon, not Boris Johnson or Douglas Ross and definitely not you. And all those people would struggle to tell you how the Uk will look in 20 years either.
All independence give us is the right to choose our own path and access to the worlds biggest trading block. That might turn out to be bad thing but we won’t know until we try. Might be that trade is a bad thing?


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[Ozyhibby]

You certainly seem to be running rings around a few independence supporters I'll give you that

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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[James310]

Nobody can tell exactly how Scotland will look after independence. Not me, not Mark Blyth, not Nicola Sturgeon, not Boris Johnson or Douglas Ross and definitely not you. And all those people would struggle to tell you how the Uk will look in 20 years either.
All independence give us is the right to choose our own path and access to the worlds biggest trading block. That might turn out to be bad thing but we won’t know until we try. Might be that trade is a bad thing?


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Change a few words and you could be advocating Brexit, putting up barriers with your biggest trading partner might work out who knows, let's try it and see, it might be painful at first but it will be worth it in the end. Take back control etc.

Could be a speech from Jacob Rees Mogg.

[Since90+2]

Change a few words and you could be advocating Brexit, putting up barriers with your biggest trading partner might work out who knows, let's try it and see, it might be painful at first but it will be worth it in the end. Take back control etc.

Could be a speech from Jacob Rees Mogg.

Personally, I believe that independence is the best route for Scotland to go down but it's not without its risks or challenges.

IMO there would be economic hardship whilst the country adjusted to living within its means but ultimately it will be worth it for future generations. It could take 10 years, but as someone who has a young daughter I believe making our own decisions would lead to a better and fairer society.

It will be the moderate Yes voters who win the argument, not the lunatic fringe. Although I don't agree with your politics it's exactly what we need so people can make an informed decision.

Keep doing what you are doing and a proper debate can emerge. There is no land of milk and honey in an iScotland, but it would, IMO, allow the country to prosper.

[Ozyhibby]

Change a few words and you could be advocating Brexit, putting up barriers with your biggest trading partner might work out who knows, let's try it and see, it might be painful at first but it will be worth it in the end. Take back control etc.

Could be a speech from Jacob Rees Mogg.

There is no doubt there will be changes. When I was young Ireland did 90% of its trade with the UK, now it is 11%. Was it worth it for Ireland to make these changes? Absolutely. Would a single person in Ireland want to go back to those days? The fact that 60% of Scotland’s trade is with the UK is nothing to brag about. It shows how poorly Scotland is performing.


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[Kato]

Change a few words and you could be advocating Brexit, putting up barriers with your biggest trading partner might work out who knows, let's try it and see, it might be painful at first but it will be worth it in the end. Take back control etc.

Could be a speech from Jacob Rees Mogg.So we are already living in a scenario which you are warning against.

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[James310]

So we are already living in a scenario which you are warning against.

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Yes, if only some people had listened to economic experts who were saying it would turn out badly. Unfortunately they were ignored or dismissed because they wrote for or worked for organisation X or Y and must be bias etc. See the similarities?

[James310]

There is no doubt there will be changes. When I was young Ireland did 90% of its trade with the UK, now it is 11%. Was it worth it for Ireland to make these changes? Absolutely. Would a single person in Ireland want to go back to those days? The fact that 60% of Scotland’s trade is with the UK is nothing to brag about. It shows how poorly Scotland is performing.


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You must be a grand age as it was 90% at the time of Irish Independence in the 1920s. It has fallen over time as you would expect, it was about 40% at the end of the 80s and has fallen more. So I guess it's taken about 100 years to get from 90% to where it is now.

I suspect nobody in Ireland wants to go back to the 1920s no.

[Smartie]

Yes, if only some people had listened to economic experts who were saying it would turn out badly. Unfortunately they were ignored or dismissed because they wrote for or worked for organisation X or Y and must be bias etc. See the similarities?

I acknowledge the irony, the hypocrisy and the double standards involved in the Scottish independence vs Brexit vote. I'll happily be convinced by one on one side yet find it ridiculous on the other, so I hold up my hands to conflicted beliefs.

Can you say likewise? Obviously you're against Scottish independence, but can you accept that many of the arguments you put forward fall down in the face of the Brexit argument? That's what we've got now, we've severed trading with a bigger partner etc etc. Whilst we might want to get back to that, we'll have to lose another partner.

Do you have any acceptance of the position that the status quo post Brexit is a bit pish, even if you still believe (as is your right) that it would still be better than Scottish independence and an attempt to get back into Europe?

[James310]

I acknowledge the irony, the hypocrisy and the double standards involved in the Scottish independence vs Brexit vote. I'll happily be convinced by one on one side yet find it ridiculous on the other, so I hold up my hands to conflicted beliefs.

Can you say likewise? Obviously you're against Scottish independence, but can you accept that many of the arguments you put forward fall down in the face of the Brexit argument? That's what we've got now, we've severed trading with a bigger partner etc etc. Whilst we might want to get back to that, we'll have to lose another partner.

Do you have any acceptance of the position that the status quo post Brexit is a bit pish, even if you still believe (as is your right) that it would still be better than Scottish independence and an attempt to get back into Europe?

I voted remain and would rejoin the EU tomorrow again. If you extract yourself from a union even a fairly immature Union like the EU then it's going to cause economic and personal upheaval. Yes the arguments I make are exactly because Brexit has been such a disaster, but all the analysis I have seen shows me extracting yourself from a mature union where we have far greater connectivity, even more so than the UK/EU relationship, will lead to similar and likely worse problems.

Yes it might be worth it in a few decades time, but that's exactly what the Brexiteers say. Let Scotland take back control, the people of Scotland are the best people to make the decisions for Scotland etc are all arguments made for Brexit but substitute Scotland for the UK.

As we saw with Brexit though people don't care, they want X or Y and nothing will convince them otherwise.

[The Modfather]

I voted remain and would rejoin the EU tomorrow again. If you extract yourself from a union even a fairly immature Union like the EU then it's going to cause economic and personal upheaval. Yes the arguments I make are exactly because Brexit has been such a disaster, but all the analysis I have seen shows me extracting yourself from a mature union where we have far greater connectivity, even more so than the UK/EU relationship, will lead to similar and likely worse problems.

Yes it might be worth it in a few decades time, but that's exactly what the Brexiteers say. Let Scotland take back control, the people of Scotland are the best people to make the decisions for Scotland etc are all arguments made for Brexit but substitute Scotland for the UK.

As we saw with Brexit though people don't care, they want X or Y and nothing will convince them otherwise.

What do you think can be done in the short and medium term to improve the post Brexit union we live in today? What’s the possible ways forward from where we are now?

[The Tubs]

I voted remain and would rejoin the EU tomorrow again. If you extract yourself from a union even a fairly immature Union like the EU then it's going to cause economic and personal upheaval. Yes the arguments I make are exactly because Brexit has been such a disaster, but all the analysis I have seen shows me extracting yourself from a mature union where we have far greater connectivity, even more so than the UK/EU relationship, will lead to similar and likely worse problems.

Yes it might be worth it in a few decades time, but that's exactly what the Brexiteers say. Let Scotland take back control, the people of Scotland are the best people to make the decisions for Scotland etc are all arguments made for Brexit but substitute Scotland for the UK.

As we saw with Brexit though people don't care, they want X or Y and nothing will convince them otherwise.

Of course it was far easier to make the argument for independence before Brexit, especially the hard one that has been imposed on us. However, Scotland's future is now even more locked into a union whose course is determined by swing voters in certain English constituencies. Before Brexit, the EU placed some limits on Conservative maliciousness. Why would you choose to submit your nation to such a situation?

I'd say that the way Brexit came about demonstrates why Scottish independence is required, exactly for the reasons you have stated. While the Brexit campaign fabricated stories about the harm the EU imposed on the UK, we have clear evidence that this same mendacity and malevolence that was used to remove the UK from the EU is also being used to make sure that the Scottish economy and, ergo, Scottish devolution will fail. If you thought Scotland got the ****ty end before, it's only going to get worse.

Over the course of my life, I have seen Scotland consistently being ripped off by the Conservatives. Can you give me a reason to hope that this will come to an end? Or do you prefer an insidious advance towards stagnation and backwardness? Could you explain why Brexit might be a good thing in 20 years?

[Kato]

Yes, if only some people had listened to economic experts who were saying it would turn out badly. Unfortunately they were ignored or dismissed because they wrote for or worked for organisation X or Y and must be bias etc. See the similarities?Of course. Apart from getting away from a pathological cocaoracy is the result of winning independence. At the moment watching them syphon cash evermore upwards is getting a bit dull after 35 years.

The UK is suffering and will be for the next 10-15 years, if it survives.. If ever there was a time for going through economic pain it's now. I'd rather come out the other end separated from what passes as a ruling class in southern England. Obviously Starmer might win but he's just slightly to the right of John Major, so a more polite version of siphoning money upwards is just as unapalatable.


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[James310]

Of course it was far easier to make the argument for independence before Brexit, especially the hard one that has been imposed on us. However, Scotland's future is now even more locked into a union whose course is determined by swing voters in certain English constituencies. Before Brexit, the EU placed some limits on Conservative maliciousness. Why would you choose to submit your nation to such a situation?

I'd say that the way Brexit came about demonstrates why Scottish independence is required, exactly for the reasons you have stated. While the Brexit campaign fabricated stories about the harm the EU imposed on the UK, we have clear evidence that this same mendacity and malevolence that was used to remove the UK from the EU is also being used to make sure that the Scottish economy and, ergo, Scottish devolution will fail. If you thought Scotland got the ****ty end before, it's only going to get worse.

Over the course of my life, I have seen Scotland consistently being ripped off by the Conservatives. Can you give me a reason to hope that this will come to an end? Or do you prefer an insidious advance towards stagnation and backwardness? Could you explain why Brexit might be a good thing in 20 years?

When you say Scotland is being ripped off by the conservatives what exactly do you mean? Like financially? Are we paying in more to the UK and getting less back out? I don't think that's true.

https://theferret.scot/claim-scotland-pays-out-more-than-gets-back-false/


Do I prefer an insidious advance to stagnation and backwardness, well funnily enough no, who would prefer that?

Can I explain why Brexit might be good in 20 years? No I can't, but I have never claimed it would be.

[Kato]

Of course it was far easier to make the argument for independence before Brexit, especially the hard one that has been imposed on us. However, Scotland's future is now even more locked into a union whose course is determined by swing voters in certain English constituencies. Before Brexit, the EU placed some limits on Conservative maliciousness. Why would you choose to submit your nation to such a situation?

I'd say that the way Brexit came about demonstrates why Scottish independence is required, exactly for the reasons you have stated. While the Brexit campaign fabricated stories about the harm the EU imposed on the UK, we have clear evidence that this same mendacity and malevolence that was used to remove the UK from the EU is also being used to make sure that the Scottish economy and, ergo, Scottish devolution will fail. If you thought Scotland got the ****ty end before, it's only going to get worse.

Over the course of my life, I have seen Scotland consistently being ripped off by the Conservatives. Can you give me a reason to hope that this will come to an end? Or do you prefer an insidious advance towards stagnation and backwardness? Could you explain why Brexit might be a good thing in 20 years?Said the same as me but better, Tubs. Atrocious that people are pretending to themselves that this Govt are trying to make things better for the general populace. They do nothing but grift, lie, steal and gaslight. Their supporters in Scotland, who only support them on one issue, are gaslighting themselves.

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[The Tubs]

When you say Scotland is being ripped off by the conservatives what exactly do you mean? Like financially? Are we paying in more to the UK and getting less back out? I don't think that's true.

https://theferret.scot/claim-scotland-pays-out-more-than-gets-back-false/


Do I prefer an insidious advance to stagnation and backwardness, well funnily enough no, who would prefer that?

Can I explain why Brexit might be good in 20 years? No I can't, but I have never claimed it would be.

With regard to being ripped off, I didn't refer specifically to the present but to memories during the course of my life, the most vivid of which is the sacrifice of Scottish communities under Thatcher.

I don't feel capable of discussing GERS figures as I do not reside in the UK so don't have a reasonable grasp of how they are calculated. During my next holidays, I might study their calculation and get back to you. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting that the amount they claim that Scotland benefits from has been decreasing in recent years. When will this stop? I have a feeling that it's going to get a lot worse.

Who would prefer that? A masochist perhaps.

You did say that people said Brexit might bring benefits in a few decades. I apologise for putting 20 years into your mouth. Can you explain why people say Brexit might be good for the UK? Do you agree with these arguments?

Now that I have responded to your two questions, would you be able to give me a reason to believe that Scotland will stop being mistreated by the Conservatives?

[James310]

With regard to being ripped off, I didn't refer specifically to the present but to memories during the course of my life, the most vivid of which is the sacrifice of Scottish communities under Thatcher.

I don't feel capable of discussing GERS figures as I do not reside in the UK so don't have a reasonable grasp of how they are calculated. During my next holidays, I might study their calculation and get back to you. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting that the amount they claim that Scotland benefits from has been decreasing in recent years. When will this stop? I have a feeling that it's going to get a lot worse.

Who would prefer that? A masochist perhaps.

You did say that people said Brexit might bring benefits in a few decades. I apologise for putting 20 years into your mouth. Can you explain why people say Brexit might be good for the UK? Do you agree with these arguments?

Now that I have responded to your two questions, would you be able to give me a reason to believe that Scotland will stop being mistreated by the Conservatives?

So if Scotland benefits financially as you seem to be agreeing, why would you want that to come to an end? You want less money for our public services like the NHS?

People like Jacob Rees Mogg say things like Brexit will be worth it in 50 years or words to that effect, I am simply drawing comparisons to people who say the same about Independence. As far as I can see there seems to be very little benefit at all so I am not going to defend something I think was a mistake and never voted for. You would need to ask the people who voted for Brexit and think it will bring benefits that question.

Your final question is an opinion you hold, so it's hard to argue back on that. This current Tory government are probably the worst in living memory and I have said on other posts I hope they are out of power soon, so that final question is probably best asked to someone that supports this current UK government.

[Ozyhibby]

The thought that people in Scotland want to keep living on handouts from the rest of the UK gives me the boak.


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[The Tubs]

So if Scotland benefits financially as you seem to be agreeing, why would you want that to come to an end? You want less money for our public services like the NHS?

People like Jacob Rees Mogg say things like Brexit will be worth it in 50 years or words to that effect, I am simply drawing comparisons to people who say the same about Independence. As far as I can see there seems to be very little benefit at all so I am not going to defend something I think was a mistake and never voted for. You would need to ask the people who voted for Brexit and think it will bring benefits that question.

Your final question is an opinion you hold, so it's hard to argue back on that. This current Tory government are probably the worst in living memory and I have said on other posts I hope they are out of power soon, so that final question is probably best asked to someone that supports this current UK government.

I think you have interpreted my ignorance of GERS as an agreement that Scotland benefits financially from being in the UK. As a rule, I favour subsidiarity. Despite it being impossible to prove — though I'm sure some economists would believe they could — I find it hard not to believe that the opportunity cost of being in the union since 1979 has been huge for Scotland.

Due to the nature of democracy in the UK, you, unwittingly as it may be, tacitly support the right of the Conservatives to dictate policy in Scotland by opposing independence. Since 1979, I cannot imagine any one organisation has had a bigger impact on Scotland's wellbeing than the Conservatives. We should cut our losses as soon as possible.

[Smartie]

The thought that people in Scotland want to keep living on handouts from the rest of the UK gives me the boak.


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It's the idea that living on hand outs from a shower of ***** is anything like sustainable that gets me.

Watch Question Time from tonight and get a feel for the direction of travel.

There's a bit about Mick Lynch's recent performance that really makes you think twice about stuff. There are still decent folk down South, there still does sometimes feel like there's some sort of collectiveness between the constituent parts of the UK and something to fight for.

But then you just realise that they're swimming against a tide of effluent and the only regrettable conclusion can be that we really just need to get out.

[James310]

The thought that people in Scotland want to keep living on handouts from the rest of the UK gives me the boak.


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We have talked about this before. I don't see it as a handout or begging etc as you frame it.

Do you believe Scotland pays it's way as part of the UK? That we pay our population share of taxes? I assume you do think that, if so why is it a handout? Unless you think Scotland doesn't pay it's fair share?

This is our share of UK funding and you want us to give it up. You want us to give up billions of pounds that help fund our public services like the NHS (best funded in the UK remember, the cost of funding the NHS won't suddenly half after Independence)

[The Tubs]

We have talked about this before. I don't see it as a handout or begging etc as you frame it.

Do you believe Scotland pays it's way as part of the UK? That we pay our population share of taxes? I assume you do think that, if so why is it a handout? Unless you think Scotland doesn't pay it's fair share?

This is our share of UK funding and you want us to give it up. You want us to give up billions of pounds that help fund our public services like the NHS (best funded in the UK remember, the cost of funding the NHS won't suddenly half after Independence)

How do you see it?

If things continue as they are, the Barnett formula, or at least any benefit we derive from it, will be gone in 10 years.

I can honestly imagine that, under this scenario, the blue wall will surround the east end of Glasgow in 20 years.

[Hibrandenburg]

You must be a grand age as it was 90% at the time of Irish Independence in the 1920s. It has fallen over time as you would expect, it was about 40% at the end of the 80s and has fallen more. So I guess it's taken about 100 years to get from 90% to where it is now.

I suspect nobody in Ireland wants to go back to the 1920s no.

Some in Northern Ireland might.

[James310]

How do you see it?

If things continue as they are, the Barnett formula, or at least any benefit we derive from it, will be gone in 10 years.

I can honestly imagine that, under this scenario, the blue wall will surround the east end of Glasgow in 20 years.

Can't see it, it would undoubtedly drive support for Independence if they scrapped Barnett so on that basis I don't see it happening.

I just find it an odd arguement that 'handouts' are a problem that needs fixed, if they are a problem that needs fixed you are arguing that higher public spending in Scotland is a problem that needs fixed. You are basically basing your argument on Independence by saying we should cut public spending.

[Hibernian Verse]

Can't see it, it would undoubtedly drive support for Independence if they scrapped Barnett so on that basis I don't see it happening.

I just find it an odd arguement that 'handouts' are a problem that needs fixed, if they are a problem that needs fixed you are arguing that higher public spending in Scotland is a problem that needs fixed. You are basically basing your argument on Independence by saying we should cut public spending.

Boris & the Tories have driven support for Independence numerous times recently, I'm not sure why you'd suddenly start trusting them to do good by Scotland now?

[James310]

Boris & the Tories have driven support for Independence numerous times recently, I'm not sure why you'd suddenly start trusting them to do good by Scotland now?

Apart from a spell during the pandemic then there is little evidence support for Independence has increased in any significant way. I think of the last 40 polls Yes has been in the lead in about 4 of them.

The way things are going we will have a Labour government in the next few years, this would be hard for the SNP and I don't see a UK Labour government driving support for Independence either.

But there is a referendum next year, so we are told.

[The Modfather]

What do you think can be done in the short and medium term to improve the post Brexit union we live in today? What’s the possible ways forward from where we are now?

James, did you miss my post above?

[Hibernian Verse]

Apart from a spell during the pandemic then there is little evidence support for Independence has increased in any significant way. I think of the last 40 polls Yes has been in the lead in about 4 of them.

The way things are going we will have a Labour government in the next few years, this would be hard for the SNP and I don't see a UK Labour government driving support for Independence either.

But there is a referendum next year, so we are told.

Yes you keep referencing these polls as though it is your comfort blanket. Ipsos Mori had it at 50/50 on 31st May, which is a change from 55/45 in the YouGov the week before. That doesn't mean that 5% 272,500 people have suddenly swung their vote in a week so take them with a pinch of salt as they canvas a small amount of people.

I know from speaking to friends, family & customers that Partygate, Brexit, Boris in general, Rwanda and more is making people veer towards independence when previously they were very much in favour of keeping the status quo. Many other posters on here have said they have the same experiences.

Your point re: Labour is interesting. What gives you the confidence that Starmer can galvanise the UK when he can't even beat Boris in a single round of PMQs?

[Moulin Yarns]

This is our share of UK funding and you want us to give it up. You want us to give up billions of pounds that help fund our public services like the NHS (best funded in the UK remember, the cost of funding the NHS won't suddenly half after Independence)


This is the crux for me. Scotland, and the tax paying public are funding things that are of no interest or benefit to Scotland. The Elizabeth line, HS2 are 2 of the biggest, but we have no say in the decision making for how our money is spent in the UK.

I would rather that Scotland was in the position to decide on all fiscal requirements. We would be able to make different decisions on defence, immigration, foreign policy etc. Things that are determined in Westminster for the benefit of England.

[James310]

Yes you keep referencing these polls as though it is your comfort blanket. Ipsos Mori had it at 50/50 on 31st May, which is a change from 55/45 in the YouGov the week before. That doesn't mean that 5% 272,500 people have suddenly swung their vote in a week so take them with a pinch of salt as they canvas a small amount of people.

I know from speaking to friends, family & customers that Partygate, Brexit, Boris in general, Rwanda and more is making people veer towards independence when previously they were very much in favour of keeping the status quo. Many other posters on here have said they have the same experiences.

Your point re: Labour is interesting. What gives you the confidence that Starmer can galvanise the UK when he can't even beat Boris in a single round of PMQs?

With polls you look at the trends, the trend now is very much No is back in the lead and Labour in the lead. I accept polls are not perfect though.

Very few people will watch PMQs, they won't vote based on his performance at PMQs.

[Stairway 2 7]

This is the crux for me. Scotland, and the tax paying public are funding things that are of no interest or benefit to Scotland. The Elizabeth line, HS2 are 2 of the biggest, but we have no say in the decision making for how our money is spent in the UK.

I would rather that Scotland was in the position to decide on all fiscal requirements. We would be able to make different decisions on defence, immigration, foreign policy etc. Things that are determined in Westminster for the benefit of England.

We get money back in the Barnet formula for hs2 and Elizabeth line. We should have gone for high speed in Scotland with it.

I agree with the rest immigration, foreign policy ect

[James310]

This is the crux for me. Scotland, and the tax paying public are funding things that are of no interest or benefit to Scotland. The Elizabeth line, HS2 are 2 of the biggest, but we have no say in the decision making for how our money is spent in the UK.

I would rather that Scotland was in the position to decide on all fiscal requirements. We would be able to make different decisions on defence, immigration, foreign policy etc. Things that are determined in Westminster for the benefit of England.

We have already dispelled the myth Scotland pays for HS2, we get Barnett funding back. That's not me saying that, it's the Scottish Government saying that. See below from a FOI.

"HS2 is wholly funded by the UK Government. At Spending Review 2020, the Department
for Transport’s settlement included £22.6bn for HS2 over the period 2021/22 – 2024/25.

As the Statement of Funding Policy document sets out, the Scottish Government receives Barnett consequentials from UK Government spending on HS2 in the normal way for heavy rail spending in England and Wales.

At Spending Review 2020, the Scottish Government received Barnett consequentials of £276m in 2021/22 as a result of changes in the Department for Transport’s overall budget."

Nigel Farage said the people of the UK are best placed to make the decisions for the UK, substitute UK for Scotland and you seem to be agreeing with him. Do you want to take back control as well.

[The Tubs]

Can't see it, it would undoubtedly drive support for Independence if they scrapped Barnett so on that basis I don't see it happening.

I just find it an odd arguement that 'handouts' are a problem that needs fixed, if they are a problem that needs fixed you are arguing that higher public spending in Scotland is a problem that needs fixed. You are basically basing your argument on Independence by saying we should cut public spending.

I think you missed my question too, James. To be helpful, I'll repeat it. How do you see what Ozy described and I paraphrase as "boak inducing"?

As far as I can gather, the current fiscal arrangements for Scotland mean funding can and is being strangled without having to alter the Barnett formula.

[Stairway 2 7]

Apart from a spell during the pandemic then there is little evidence support for Independence has increased in any significant way. I think of the last 40 polls Yes has been in the lead in about 4 of them.

The way things are going we will have a Labour government in the next few years, this would be hard for the SNP and I don't see a UK Labour government driving support for Independence either.

But there is a referendum next year, so we are told.

Bookies still have the tories ahead in the next election and the favourite for year of election is 2024

[The Tubs]

Bookies still have the tories ahead in the next election and the favourite for year of election is 2024

James will be delighted with that news.

[Stairway 2 7]

James will be delighted with that news.

It's close odds, but still pretty pathetic by labour

[James310]

I think you missed my question too, James. To be helpful, I'll repeat it. How do you see what Ozy described and I paraphrase as "boak inducing"?

As far as I can gather, the current fiscal arrangements for Scotland mean funding can and is being strangled without having to alter the Barnett formula.

I am being asked multiple questions across multiple posts now, I can't keep up. My fault for engaging!

I don't get what question you are asking and the reference to boak inducing. I have made my point about so called handouts a couple of times now. If Scotland finds its not getting it's fair share of spending then I am sure that will lead to an increase in support for Independence. At the moment we are about 8% of the population of the UK but get about 9% of spending, seems like a good deal.

I will leave it at that for now.

[Berwickhibby]

James will be delighted with that news.

Why would James be delighted? He despises the Tories

[James310]

James will be delighted with that news.

Why, I have said multiple times I don't want the Tory's to win? Go back and check.

[The Tubs]

I am being asked multiple questions across multiple posts now, I can't keep up. My fault for engaging!

I don't get what question you are asking and the reference to boak inducing. I have made my point about so called handouts a couple of times now. If Scotland finds its not getting it's fair share of spending then I am sure that will lead to an increase in support for Independence. At the moment we are about 8% of the population of the UK but get about 9% of spending, seems like a good deal.

I will leave it at that for now.

It may seem like a good deal but is it fair? Would you not call it a handout if we undeservingly benefit?

[The Tubs]

Why, I have said multiple times I don't want the Tory's to win? Go back and check.

You may repeat multiple times that you don't want the Conservatives to win, but you didn't dispute the fact the opposing Scottish independence is equivalent to accepting the Conservatives as the primary arbiter of Scotland's future. Due to Labour's poor electoral record, this is unlikely to change.

[James310]

It may seem like a good deal but is it fair? Would you not call it a handout if we undeservingly benefit?

No, because over the years we have been contributers. The argument that it's a bad thing now is in my opinion odd, as I say it's the same as arguing against higher public spending in Scotland and saying it's a bad thing, in what world is higher public spending a bad thing.

I feel like I am repeating myself over and over now so will bow out for the time being.

[The Tubs]

No, because over the years we have been contributers. The argument that it's a bad thing now is in my opinion odd, as I say it's the same as arguing against higher public spending in Scotland and saying it's a bad thing, in what world is higher public spending a bad thing.

I feel like I am repeating myself over and over now so will bow out for the time being.

When were we contributors?

[Stairway 2 7]

Some of the most left wing people I know don't want Independence. They don't agree with Starmer but they believe in the uk Labour movement. Some thought Thatcher side by side in Yorkshire and have the scars from the met to prove it.

I disagree with them and want Independence, but labelling them tories ect it just stupid.

40%+ is probably set in stone. It's the moderates and Labour voters that need won over. Just defaming them will mean another no vote

[ronaldo7]

Why would James be delighted? He despises the Tories

Does he? I thought I read on here that he voted for them. People change their minds though.

[James310]

When were we contributors?

Quite a number of times, normally when oil revenue was high. John Swinney from 2009.

"Mr Swinney said: “The GERS figures show Scotland in current budget surplus at a time when the UK current budget was in deficit. To illustrate, in family budget terms, Scotland’s current account is in surplus, while the UK is in overdraft.

“Scotland has been in current budget surplus now for three years, to the tune of almost £2.3 billion. The GERS figures confirm that Scotland stands on a firm financial footing - firmer than the UK as a whole.”

[Just Alf]

Quite a number of times, normally when oil revenue was high. John Swinney from 2009.

"Mr Swinney said: “The GERS figures show Scotland in current budget surplus at a time when the UK current budget was in deficit. To illustrate, in family budget terms, Scotland’s current account is in surplus, while the UK is in overdraft.

“Scotland has been in current budget surplus now for three years, to the tune of almost £2.3 billion. The GERS figures confirm that Scotland stands on a firm financial footing - firmer than the UK as a whole.”I truly hope you're typing on a PC and not your phone... well done for sticking in there!

[Moulin Yarns]

We have already dispelled the myth Scotland pays for HS2, we get Barnett funding back. That's not me saying that, it's the Scottish Government saying that. See below from a FOI.

"HS2 is wholly funded by the UK Government. At Spending Review 2020, the Department
for Transport’s settlement included £22.6bn for HS2 over the period 2021/22 – 2024/25.

As the Statement of Funding Policy document sets out, the Scottish Government receives Barnett consequentials from UK Government spending on HS2 in the normal way for heavy rail spending in England and Wales.

At Spending Review 2020, the Scottish Government received Barnett consequentials of £276m in 2021/22 as a result of changes in the Department for Transport’s overall budget."

Nigel Farage said the people of the UK are best placed to make the decisions for the UK, substitute UK for Scotland and you seem to be agreeing with him. Do you want to take back control as well.

We get money back, but would it not make more sense not to spend it on projects that do not benefit Scotland and just keep the money in the first place.

[Moulin Yarns]

Quite a number of times, normally when oil revenue was high. John Swinney from 2009.

"Mr Swinney said: “The GERS figures show Scotland in current budget surplus at a time when the UK current budget was in deficit. To illustrate, in family budget terms, Scotland’s current account is in surplus, while the UK is in overdraft.

“Scotland has been in current budget surplus now for three years, to the tune of almost £2.3 billion. The GERS figures confirm that Scotland stands on a firm financial footing - firmer than the UK as a whole.”

If only we could have kept it 😉

[Mon Dieu4]

Some of the most left wing people I know don't want Independence. They don't agree with Starmer but they believe in the uk Labour movement. Some thought Thatcher side by side in Yorkshire and have the scars from the met to prove it.

I disagree with them and want Independence, but labelling them tories ect it just stupid.

40%+ is probably set in stone. It's the moderates and Labour voters that need won over. Just defaming them will mean another no vote

40% as you put it won't be set in stone forever, I would already state that the majority of younger people are fed up with the status quo, add in the lack of being able to own their own home, get a decent job, Brexit, lack of a decent pension and they won't have as much to lose as the older generations that aren't willing to take a punt due to the fear of losing these things, not saying it would happen in the next referendum but Scotland will be independent at some point in the not too distant future in my opinion

[The Tubs]

Quite a number of times, normally when oil revenue was high. John Swinney from 2009.

"Mr Swinney said: “The GERS figures show Scotland in current budget surplus at a time when the UK current budget was in deficit. To illustrate, in family budget terms, Scotland’s current account is in surplus, while the UK is in overdraft.

“Scotland has been in current budget surplus now for three years, to the tune of almost £2.3 billion. The GERS figures confirm that Scotland stands on a firm financial footing - firmer than the UK as a whole.”

Thank you for the reply.

[ronaldo7]

I suppose this is something like the US system.

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/scottish-tourists-to-be-charged-fee-for-entry-to-eu-under-etias-visa-waiver-scheme?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1656011570-1

Scottish travellers will have to pay a fee for entry to the European Union under a new scheme expected to come into force next year.

The European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS) will require a payment of £6 before travel to any EU states, to allow a security check created to “identify security, irregular migration or high epidemic risks posed by visa-exempt visitors” into Schengen member states.

Since the UK left the EU after Brexit, Scottish citizens hoping to visit the Schengen zone will have to apply for a travel authorisation through the ETIAS system prior to their trip.

ETIAS is expected to launch next year after having first been proposed in 2016, before the UK had voted to leave the EU in 2018.

The system is not to be confused with a Schengen visa – described instead as a “visa waiver”, the system will conduct checks against EU information systems for borders and security and issue a travel authorisation within minutes.

[danhibees1875]

We get money back, but would it not make more sense not to spend it on projects that do not benefit Scotland and just keep the money in the first place.

Depends what you mean by sense I guess, but presumably the numbers work something along the lines of:

We threw £10 into the mix, UK paid £100 (£10 of ours, £90 rUK), then said "right, you'll not get much benefit from that, so here's £11 of consequentials"

:dunno:

Perhaps slightly muddied as I believe I once read that Scotland would benefit as trains from Edinburgh/Glasgow to London etc would use a part of the line and so have slightly quicker journeys - not sure if that was factored in.

[Stairway 2 7]

I suppose this is something like the US system.

https://news.stv.tv/scotland/scottish-tourists-to-be-charged-fee-for-entry-to-eu-under-etias-visa-waiver-scheme?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1656011570-1

Scottish travellers will have to pay a fee for entry to the European Union under a new scheme expected to come into force next year.

The European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS) will require a payment of £6 before travel to any EU states, to allow a security check created to “identify security, irregular migration or high epidemic risks posed by visa-exempt visitors” into Schengen member states.

Since the UK left the EU after Brexit, Scottish citizens hoping to visit the Schengen zone will have to apply for a travel authorisation through the ETIAS system prior to their trip.

ETIAS is expected to launch next year after having first been proposed in 2016, before the UK had voted to leave the EU in 2018.

The system is not to be confused with a Schengen visa – described instead as a “visa waiver”, the system will conduct checks against EU information systems for borders and security and issue a travel authorisation within minutes.

6 quid every 3 years is the least of our problems, pay much more for turkey or the uk. Our gdp shrinking because of Brexit not bit more troublesome

[Stairway 2 7]

We get money back, but would it not make more sense not to spend it on projects that do not benefit Scotland and just keep the money in the first place.

Big infrastructure projects are quite left wing and we can spend it on what we want. High speed rail is long overdue in this country

[Stairway 2 7]

40% as you put it won't be set in stone forever, I would already state that the majority of younger people are fed up with the status quo, add in the lack of being able to own their own home, get a decent job, Brexit, lack of a decent pension and they won't have as much to lose as the older generations that aren't willing to take a punt due to the fear of losing these things, not saying it would happen in the next referendum but Scotland will be independent at some point in the not too distant future in my opinion

I think the direction of travel is towards independence, but it would take a number of years if just relying on age. Consistently across the world people move more right wing as they age. That's also in nations where home ownership is low. More you earn as you age equals higher tax and the want to keep it, is one suggestion for it

[Moulin Yarns]

Big infrastructure projects are quite left wing and we can spend it on what we want. High speed rail is long overdue in this country

I know there are railway people on here so they can maybe confirm this.

Network rail had negotiations with Perth and Kinross Council about selling the sidings/ Marshalling yard in Perth for housing until someone realised that the railways north of Perth wasn't electrified so they were still needed for the diesel units. Even then, the line to Inverness is a single track apart from the stations meaning any trains delayed has a knock on effect on others because they have to wait in stations for the line to clear.

[The_Exile]

I think the direction of travel is towards independence, but it would take a number of years if just relying on age.

Agree with this. Young people don't vote in the numbers needed to force change, I thought after the last vote in 2014 there would be a real upsurge in young people wanting to be engaged and that did seem to happen for a couple of years but also seems to have fallen away again. That's the beginning, middle and end of it really, if we can't get young folk into the voting booth then we won't make progress. I'm sure I've said it before but I would actually make voting mandatory and fine anybody that didn't do it. You don't even need to leave your house to vote these days so there's no excuse.

[Stairway 2 7]

I know there are railway people on here so they can maybe confirm this.

Network rail had negotiations with Perth and Kinross Council about selling the sidings/ Marshalling yard in Perth for housing until someone realised that the railways north of Perth wasn't electrified so they were still needed for the diesel units. Even then, the line to Inverness is a single track apart from the stations meaning any trains delayed has a knock on effect on others because they have to wait in stations for the line to clear.

Hs2 from London to Midlands is on a new high speed track. What your saying above is more reason for new lines built

[Ozyhibby]

I think the direction of travel is towards independence, but it would take a number of years if just relying on age. Consistently across the world people move more right wing as they age. That's also in nations where home ownership is low. More you earn as you age equals higher tax and the want to keep it, is one suggestion for it

In nations where home ownership is low it’s not so much a problem but in this country, people are really resenting the fact that their generation can’t buy a house.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Hs2 from London to Midlands is on a new high speed track. What your saying above is more reason for new lines built

A direct route between Edinburgh and Perth would be a start.

I wonder if Scotland received any Barnet consequencials for HS1?

[Stairway 2 7]

In nations where home ownership is low it’s not so much a problem but in this country, people are really resenting the fact that their generation can’t buy a house.


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I don't think home ownership will factor much in the independence debate, its risen in each of the last 5 years. Brexit is obviously the huge one. But while it might anger the young it might worry the older voters, who can be made to fear over pensions.

I think we need to win over the middle with positivity. Negativity against them that voted no last time won't win them over

[Stairway 2 7]

A direct route between Edinburgh and Perth would be a start.

I wonder if Scotland received any Barnet consequencials for HS1?

Yep that's shocking as is no route to Carlisle. Problem is having limited control over our finances. Things that should be a standard like free prescriptions and university has to be found.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think home ownership will factor much in the independence debate, its risen in each of the last 5 years. Brexit is obviously the huge one. But while it might anger the young it might worry the older voters, who can be made to fear over pensions.

I think we need to win over the middle with positivity. Negativity against them that voted no last time won't win them over

I don’t think it will be a talked about issue, I just think that people are expecting young people to move to the right or to the union as they get older as they become more risk averse might be in for a surprise. People become more risk averse when they have assets to protect but the generation coming through now are not going to have those assets to the same degree. I don’t believe that that won’t have consequences.


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[ronaldo7]

6 quid every 3 years is the least of our problems, pay much more for turkey or the uk. Our gdp shrinking because of Brexit not bit more troublesome

If only I could think of way to save that £470 a year I'll be losing because of brexit. I just might be able to afford a holiday. :wink:

Britain is becoming a more closed economy due to Brexit, with damaging long-term implications for productivity and wages which will leave the average worker 470 pounds ($577) a year poorer by the end of the decade, a study forecast on Wednesday.

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-will-cost-uk-workers-470-pounds-year-study-predicts-1701115

[Stairway 2 7]

If only I could think of way to save that £470 a year I'll be losing because of brexit. I just might be able to afford a holiday. :wink:

Britain is becoming a more closed economy due to Brexit, with damaging long-term implications for productivity and wages which will leave the average worker 470 pounds ($577) a year poorer by the end of the decade, a study forecast on Wednesday.

https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/brexit-will-cost-uk-workers-470-pounds-year-study-predicts-1701115

Craig Tara. Actually, petrol is too dear. Just stay home and be thankful we are serving our masters well

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220624/78394d8609a5c732a670a09e51e83464.jpg


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[cabbageandribs1875]

i pray we free ourselves from that lot

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/288540735_5022308094534603_798587406096341773_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=8HM_abNLRnEAX8J8s7t&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=00_AT8oVV2fFq1t_ftqh6b0pUg31sVHcopq0Hv2i-Ci5TWwpA&oe=62BB91FB

[Stairway 2 7]

As expected from Ross really

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61942213

Douglas Ross will not take part in 'pretend' independence referendum

[James310]

As expected from Ross really

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61942213

Douglas Ross will not take part in 'pretend' independence referendum

Would Independence supporters take a full and active part knowing it would be boycotted by potentially half the country? It would be a weird campaign with no opposite side.

A referendum that would have no legal status, not be recognised by the EU and UN as a means of changing the constitution.

I expect it to be challenged in the Scottish courts as well.

If this is the announcement on Tuesday how would Independence supporters feel? Would you welcome it as a positive step forward?

[Ozyhibby]

Would Independence supporters take a full and active part knowing it would be boycotted by potentially half the country? It would be a weird campaign with no opposite side.

A referendum that would have no legal status, not be recognised by the EU and UN as a means of changing the constitution.

I expect it to be challenged in the Scottish courts as well.

If this is the announcement on Tuesday how would Independence supporters feel? Would you welcome it as a positive step forward?

I think once the request has been put in and rejected it’s incumbent on the unionists to explain Scotlands democratic pathway to Indy. If there is not one then it will go to court.
At that point the Scotland act is clear but of course other laws may not be compatible with that like the human right of self determination. It will be gold for the lawyers.


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[James310]

I think once the request has been put in and rejected it’s incumbent on the unionists to explain Scotlands democratic pathway to Indy. If there is not one then it will go to court.
At that point the Scotland act is clear but of course other laws may not be compatible with that like the human right of self determination. It will be gold for the lawyers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When I say court I mean private citizens in Scotland challenging the advisory referendum. So Scottish people versus the Scottish Government.

I don't see it ever ending up in the Supreme Court as for that to happen a bill has to be passed via the Scottish Parliament that implies a legally binding referendum is taking place in Scotland. We have not seen such a bill as the Lord Advocate would not sign it off, we would have seen such a bill by now if that was the case. So a Scotland Government versus the big bad Westminster government in court will not happen.

[Skol]

I think once the request has been put in and rejected it’s incumbent on the unionists to explain Scotlands democratic pathway to Indy. If there is not one then it will go to court.
At that point the Scotland act is clear but of course other laws may not be compatible with that like the human right of self determination. It will be gold for the lawyers.


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I think that’s a good point on the democratic route needing to be clear to Scot’s.

I do think brexit is a game changer that should open up the possibility, but from there what next though. I know some will point to the last holyrood election but sturgeon was clear that voting for her was about covid recovery.

They key point for me is if sturgeon makes a formal request. If she does I believe it should be approved, but I don’t believe that is the route that will be taken and instead we will have some kind of a fudge.

We just need to wait and see what Tuesday brings.

[He's here!]

As expected from Ross really

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61942213

Douglas Ross will not take part in 'pretend' independence referendum

Soon to be branded a pretendarendum by the tabloids.

[wookie70]

Soon to be branded a pretendarendum by the tabloids.

You would have to be more than half-daft to listen to the tabloids though. I agree with the other poster. Scots need a democratic way to make a choice. I would actually be against a second referendum if Brexit hadn't happened but that was the biggest lie, among many, and in a fairly close race could have been a deciding factor.

We need another vote though and hopefully it will be more grown up as we have seen how our own destiny has been taken out of our hands from the pandemic to Brexit and we need to know if more people who reside in Scotland wish that to be the way we continued to be governed or want a change.

I feel the economy is screwed with the government we have or will have, regardless of the next election result in Westminster, so we ay as well go it alone and try and get back in the EU. My main reason though is the way England is heading in following America to an Alt-Right(fascist/Nazi) future combined with Scots having no democratic way to change that. I'm a Public Servants so have been getting poorer for over a decade. I voted SNP once and won't again. I actually think they are probably doing as much harm as good in terms of the Independence movement but they are the only show in town to get the referendum.

[lapsedhibee]

it’s incumbent on the unionists to explain Scotlands democratic pathway to Indy

And Murray Ross is just the man to do it. https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=239708454569424

[Moulin Yarns]

You would have to be more than half-daft to listen to the tabloids though. I agree with the other poster. Scots need a democratic way to make a choice. I would actually be against a second referendum if Brexit hadn't happened but that was the biggest lie, among many, and in a fairly close race could have been a deciding factor.

We need another vote though and hopefully it will be more grown up as we have seen how our own destiny has been taken out of our hands from the pandemic to Brexit and we need to know if more people who reside in Scotland wish that to be the way we continued to be governed or want a change.

I feel the economy is screwed with the government we have or will have, regardless of the next election result in Westminster, so we ay as well go it alone and try and get back in the EU. My main reason though is the way England is heading in following America to an Alt-Right(fascist/Nazi) future combined with Scots having no democratic way to change that. I'm a Public Servants so have been getting poorer for over a decade. I voted SNP once and won't again. I actually think they are probably doing as much harm as good in terms of the Independence movement but they are the only show in town to get the referendum.

Your last point is one I've mentioned before. Whilst the SNP, and Greens, had a referendum in their manifestos I would much rather have an independence campaign headed by non party members, something more akin to the Common Weal which is a left leaning assembly but without party affiliations.

Common weal has members of almost all parties, apart from the Tories and the slightly further right.


Let's get something like common weal leading the next Yes campaign and allow the politicians get on with running the countries.

[wookie70]

Your last point is one I've mentioned before. Whilst the SNP, and Greens, had a referendum in their manifestos I would much rather have an independence campaign headed by non party members, something more akin to the Common Weal which is a left leaning assembly but without party affiliations.

Common weal has members of almost all parties, apart from the Tories and the slightly further right.


Let's get something like common weal leading the next Yes campaign and allow the politicians get on with running the countries.

That would be brilliant if possible. Independence has little to do with Party Politics. The only part of Independence that I feel has to do with party Politics is that Scotland ends up with a different party in government to the one we vote for more often than not, at least in my lifetime. Even when we get the same one it can be diluted in that we voted heavily Labour but they just scraped a result in the UK. Rarely do Scots vote exactly the same way as the English vote and we basically get our Democracy forced down our throats by English voters. First past the post being emptied may actually soften my views on Independence but it is never happening now.

[James310]

I would be delighted if the Common Weal was fronting any Yes campaign.

Ex head of Common Weal thinks Alex Salmond was set up by Nicola Sturgeon and now works for Alba.

They would be far too left for the middle ground and the people that need to be persuaded. If anything they would drive up the No vote.