Scottish Independence

[JeMeSouviens]

Do the out of date multipliers not just exaggerate/increase the benefit that would still exist? I agree though that it plays a part in the overall position we find ourselves in and I should have referenced it.

If we leave then we sure as hell better at least get EU membership in return. :greengrin

European alternative sounds good on paper for sure, how it would work in practice though is a mystery. I'm not sure we could reliably estimate how many businesses are actively looking to relocate but just haven't yet and whether it would outweigh those who would then wish to leave Scotland. I suspect arguements for both are exaggerated, but at least the Yes movement have some retort in that argument now that wasn't there in 2014.

If (and I think it's a very big if if you remove the pressure that the threat of Scottish independence creates) the Barnett formula remains unchanged and the population levels remain the same, then we'll always get 115% of England's identifiable per-capita spend. But 115% of a small and decreasing number is a fairly small and decreasing number. And though I accept it's hypothetical, I'd be personally amazed if No wins indyref2/Yes movement dies and Barnett remains unchanged, but if you've got faith in UK largesse then fair enough. If your aim is to maximise Barnett income from the UK then you really want to preserve the current political stalemate for ever. UK gov can't risk a Barnett recalculation.

[JeMeSouviens]

Hurry up and give us a referendum!

I can’t wait for the tears and snotters when they lose again and to see the back of Sturgeon for good!

Well, that was constructive. Thanks for your contribution.

[Jones28]

:confused:

Are we expecting post-ref tectonic movement? :greengrin

Might be quite nice to have a Grand Canyon separating the country. It would make up for all tourism money we would lose when the queen gets told to get tae

[Mcbizz1998]

Well, that was constructive. Thanks for your contribution.

Never knew French Canadians did sarcasm.

[James310]

It appears that the position of those against independence is that yes, we are poorer than all the local independent countries but it’s possible that Scotland just isn’t capable of becoming as rich as those countries and therefore we should just accept our lot?


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Poorer on that one specific measure on the countries that are hand picked, then yes.

Richer than lot's of other independent countries on the same measure.

Let's hope these papers explain how Scotland of 2022 gets to be like Switzerland for example where health insurance is mandatory, or Finland and Sweden that have the highest tax rates in Europe, or Ireland that has no NHS and you pay to see a GP and has become a tax haven for large conglomerates like Amazon and Facebook. Why not Scotland indeed.

[archie]

That’s as good an argument as any for the union. I never have a problem with that. For some people that’s enough and they don’t mind us being poorer.


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So is your argument that Scotland will be richer with independence?

[Stairway 2 7]

Might be quite nice to have a Grand Canyon separating the country. It would make up for all tourism money we would lose when the queen gets told to get tae

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19402727.scotland-vote-keep-monarchy-independence-poll-suggests/

Think we'll keep them for a good while

[WhileTheChief..]

Might be quite nice to have a Grand Canyon separating the country. It would make up for all tourism money we would lose when the queen gets told to get tae

Kinda the opposite to how the two countries were formed back in the day!

Scotland was part of Canada, England part of Africa.

Then boom, we got joined together.

3.5 billion years of British history, beautifully put :greengrin

[Mcbizz1998]

Wealth distribution is a cracker. [emoji23]

The others have been answered. If this is all you've got we're cooking with Scottish gas.

You forgot the nonce in the castle, and all those lords we have to pay for.

Wow, nationalists talking about nonces.

Some brass neck [emoji23]

[cabbageandribs1875]

Wow, nationalists talking about nonces.

Some brass neck [emoji23]



wondered when you would find your way back here again :agree:


come on, let it all out now you know you want to

[Mcbizz1998]

wondered when you would find your way back here again :agree:


come on, let it all out now you know you want to

Bit weird mate but I’ll take it as a compliment. Glad you were thinking of me.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The SNP have a mandate for the referendum, and I hope it happens. I voted No last time, but Brexit is a game changer for me. Scotland and England are on different paths, with very different visions of the society they want to be. I do think we've reached the point where a divorce, due to irreconcilable differences would be best for both of us. The Next time I will be first in to vote Yes.

[Glory Lurker]

The issue for the SNP is they Sturgeon apart there is very little genuine talent in the party.

I've been told I'm a bit of a looker, actually.

[archie]

It appears that the position of those against independence is that yes, we are poorer than all the local independent countries but it’s possible that Scotland just isn’t capable of becoming as rich as those countries and therefore we should just accept our lot?


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That's your take on it, but s the SG paper acknowleges some of the metrics are controversial. The obvious one is using GDP as a measure of 'richness' particularly in relation to Ireland.

[ronaldo7]

I'd suggest you've never stopped since 2014.

Irrespective of how little you may respect the source, here's a potted guide to the number of times the 'starting gun' has been fired on a new indepdence drive since then:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/firing-blanks/

You can suggest all you like mate. I've been trying to live my life since 2014 in the knowledge that I never know what's round the corner from one day to the next with this UK GOV.

Brexit for about 5 years.
Parties whilst the rest of us adhered to the rules.
**** in the shires.
Setting fire to Northern Ireland.
Grenfell families still waiting.

All the while the Sax Cobergs lord it up on the peasants pennies.

Oh, and when you say starting gun, didn't you mean to say the smoking gun you've been trying to get Nicola with. :aok:

[archie]

Show me evidence that Scotland would be worse off and don't bother trying to use the perceived deficit, the UK runs at a deficit currently but that's always ignoredShow the evidence that Beyonce wouldn't go on a date with me and don't bother pointing out that I'm old, poor and ugly!

[ronaldo7]

It seems quite straight forward. Can any Unionist voter explain why it's changed?


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220614/4c5592a1850fe9f8828a1514dc9bc42f.jpg

Well said James Cook.


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Just one answer would be good. Come on boys and girls. Pipe up.

[James310]

That's your take on it, but s the SG paper acknowleges some of the metrics are controversial. The obvious one is using GDP as a measure of 'richness' particularly in relation to Ireland.

Why bother with the small print though when it shows a great graph.

"The unsuitability of GDP as a measure of both the size of the Irish economy and its rate of growth has been well documented for over 20 years. The problems with using GDP in an Irish context were brought into sharp focus in 2016, when CSO National Accounts data recorded an increase in GDP for 2015 of just under 26 per cent, a year in which employment grew by 3.4 per cent. Since 2015, there is evidence of a widening gap between measured GDP, in the official National Accounts published by the CSO, and what could be considered as Underlying domestic economic activity – i.e. economic activity conducted in Ireland that affects the employment and incomes of Irish residents. In 2021, GDP is likely to overstate the underlying rate of growth in the Irish economy by around threefold."

What's holding back the likes of Belgium being like Ireland?

[Since90+2]

Ok, all three of the poorest countries in Northern Europe are in the UK. Probably just a coincidence.


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So in other words, you just made it up. I'm a independence supporter, but coming out with "facts" then simply brushing them off when challenged on them is not going to help the cause.

We have a lot of independence supporters on here, which is good, but the loudest are those who don't actually help the cause.

I'm sure they know who they are.

[degenerated]

What's holding back the likes of Belgium being like Ireland?

The British haven't invaded and partitioned their country? Do I win £5

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1536710057626415105

[Hibernia&Alba]

When it comes to economic arguments, I'm most interested in whether an independent Scotland would result in a more or less equal society. Given that most Scots support social democratic parties, I think over the long run it would be more equal. It would be a chance to break with forty-odd years of neoliberalism/Thatcherism which has caused an explosion in inequality and insecurity, combined with a decline in social mobility. These issues concern me far more than whether the economy would grow at three per cent or two per cent. How would the rewards of that growth be shared? Would the poorest be better off? Would inequality fall? Besides, Brexit has destroyed UK growth for now at least.

Let's not get bogged down in short term numbers but instead concentrate upon the long term direction of society - economic, political and social.

[archie]

When it comes to economic arguments, I'm most interested in whether an independent Scotland would result in a more or less equal society. Given that most Scots support social democratic parties, I think over the long run it would be more equal. It would be a chance to break with forty-odd years of neoliberalism/Thatcherism which has caused an explosion in inequality and insecurity, combined with a decline in social mobility. These issues concern me far more than whether the economy would grow at three per cent or two per cent. How would the rewards of that growth be shared? Would the poorest be better off? Would inequality fall? Besides, Brexit has destroyed UK growth for now at least.

Let's not get bogged down in short term numbers but instead concentrate upon the long term direction of society - economic, political and social. That's fine to a point, but the short term numbers are actually extremely important. It's like you don't want to talk about them

[Hibernia&Alba]

That's fine to a point, but the short term numbers are actually extremely important. It's like you don't want to talk about them

I don't mind anyone discussing numbers, but it isn't the most important thing to me. I'm more interested in the impact of those numbers on human lives. It's outcomes that interest me.

I think having an economy that grows at five percent where the wealth is shared out as evenly as possible, is better than growth of ten per cent which goes entirely to the richest. Numbers are fine, but what do they result in? Which lives do they change and in what way?

[danhibees1875]

If (and I think it's a very big if if you remove the pressure that the threat of Scottish independence creates) the Barnett formula remains unchanged and the population levels remain the same, then we'll always get 115% of England's identifiable per-capita spend. But 115% of a small and decreasing number is a fairly small and decreasing number. And though I accept it's hypothetical, I'd be personally amazed if No wins indyref2/Yes movement dies and Barnett remains unchanged, but if you've got faith in UK largesse then fair enough. If your aim is to maximise Barnett income from the UK then you really want to preserve the current political stalemate for ever. UK gov can't risk a Barnett recalculation.

I think you could be right with regards to the political stalemate being the best position for Barnett consequentials - although not sure how long it's been skewed and if independence has always been a threat. I think they're also unintentionally justified as Scotland has a more sparse population and therefore services are more costly to provide - not the intention behind the disparity but hey ho.

The Barnett flaw might be to blame for a disproportionate flow to Scotland based on spend in England, but there's the additional factor of that original spend also being higher - the indirect bits that get uplifted via Barnett, and the direct stuff. This means that overall the budget allocated to Scotland increases - bringing about the notional deficit we see each year.

[hibsbollah]

When it comes to economic arguments, I'm most interested in whether an independent Scotland would result in a more or less equal society. Given that most Scots support social democratic parties, I think over the long run it would be more equal. It would be a chance to break with forty-odd years of neoliberalism/Thatcherism which has caused an explosion in inequality and insecurity, combined with a decline in social mobility. These issues concern me far more than whether the economy would grow at three per cent or two per cent. How would the rewards of that growth be shared? Would the poorest be better off? Would inequality fall? Besides, Brexit has destroyed UK growth for now at least.

Let's not get bogged down in short term numbers but instead concentrate upon the long term direction of society - economic, political and social.

:agree: Very good post.

People like certainty. But in an economic sense we really are rolling a dice, even more so these days. Anyone on either side of the debate who tries to tell you with certainty the fiscal and economic environment that will follow the five years the other side of Scottish independence isn’t being truthful.

[Paul1642]

When it comes to economic arguments, I'm most interested in whether an independent Scotland would result in a more or less equal society. Given that most Scots support social democratic parties, I think over the long run it would be more equal. It would be a chance to break with forty-odd years of neoliberalism/Thatcherism which has caused an explosion in inequality and insecurity, combined with a decline in social mobility. These issues concern me far more than whether the economy would grow at three per cent or two per cent. How would the rewards of that growth be shared? Would the poorest be better off? Would inequality fall? Besides, Brexit has destroyed UK growth for now at least.

Let's not get bogged down in short term numbers but instead concentrate upon the long term direction of society - economic, political and social.

I’m 100% all for a more equal society but only if it’s by the poor getting richer rather than those above them just getting poorer.

I’m still 50/50 on the independence issue and want to see answers to currency and budgets before I make up my mind. I’m also concerned that since last vote Brexit has happened. It may have been a stupid decision and one that we didn’t want, but in reality it has happened and we now run the risk that if we become independent and join the EU that we create a hard border which would be our problem to resolve this time. That would be damaging beyond measure and I don’t know what could be done about it?

[Hibernia&Alba]

:agree: Very good post.

People like certainty. But in an economic sense we really are rolling a dice, even more so these days. Anyone on either side of the debate who tries to tell you with certainty the fiscal and economic environment that will follow the five years the other side of Scottish independence isn’t being truthful.

Would society be more or less equal?
Would we have more or fewer hospitals and would care improve or not?
Would we have more or fewer homeless sleeping rough?
Would have more or fewer people in poor quality housing?
Would working people have stronger or weaker rights?
Would asylum seekers be sent to Rwanda?
Would we be inside or outside the EU?
Would education standards improve or decline?
Would crime increase or decrease?
Would we have another fifteen years of austerity?
Would there be more or fewer food banks?

These are the kind of issues that would help me decide, not whether the economy would grow at four per cent or two percent for the first five years. That doesn't tell me much at all.

If the economy grows at four per cent, but none of the above issues improve, that's pointless for me. If the economy grows at two per cent but quality of life for the majority, especially for the least amongst us, improves, I would rather have that. It's outcomes I want to know about.

[Since90+2]

Would society be more or less equal?
Would we have more or fewer hospitals and would care improve or not?
Would we have more or fewer homeless sleeping rough?
Would have more or fewer people in poor quality housing?
Would working people have stronger or weaker rights?
Would asylum seekers be sent to Rwanda?
Would we be inside or outside the EU?
Would education standards improve or decline?
Would crime increase or decrease?
Would we have another fifteen years of austerity?
Would there be more or fewer food banks?

These are the kind of issues that would help me decide, not whether the economy would grow at four per cent or two percent for the first five years. That doesn't tell me much at all.

If the economy grows at four per cent, but none of the above issues improve, that's pointless for me. If the economy grows at two per cent but quality of life for the majority, especially for the least amongst us, improves, I would rather have that. It's outcomes I want to know about.

Nobody with any real certainty can answer your last sentence. They can tell you what they think, but if it's absolutely certainty you're after it won't be forthcoming.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Nobody with any real certainty can answer your last sentence. They can tell you what they think, but if it's absolutely certainty you're after it won't be forthcoming.

Okay, but I don't accept that economic growth is an end itself. That's neoliberalism. Economists can tell us the numbers; it's the role of politics to provide meaning to them.

[archie]

Would society be more or less equal?
Would we have more or fewer hospitals and would care improve or not?
Would we have more or fewer homeless sleeping rough?
Would have more or fewer people in poor quality housing?
Would working people have stronger or weaker rights?
Would asylum seekers be sent to Rwanda?
Would we be inside or outside the EU?
Would education standards improve or decline?
Would crime increase or decrease?
Would we have another fifteen years of austerity?
Would there be more or fewer food banks?

These are the kind of issues that would help me decide, not whether the economy would grow at four per cent or two percent for the first five years. That doesn't tell me much at all.

If the economy grows at four per cent, but none of the above issues improve, that's pointless for me. If the economy grows at two per cent but quality of life for the majority, especially for the least amongst us, improves, I would rather have that. It's outcomes I want to know about.These are all unanswerable. It's not just the economics, who knows what the post independence electorate will want? And there's a lot that we wouldn't control. The assumption seems to be that we'd jump into the EU. Would we? And on what terms? Do you accept the direction of the EU governance? There are real strains in the EU over Hungary and Poland. Are we OK with that? I think Brexit was a colossal mistake, but I don't agree with he magical thinking that Scotland joining will be straightforward or without pain

[archie]

Okay, but I don't accept that economic growth is an end itself. That's neoliberalism. Economists can tell us the numbers; it's the role of politics to provide meaning to them.
But what does that actually mean? The prevailing argument on here today is that Scotland would be richer if independent. Are you saying it doesn't matter to you if it's richer or poorer?

[Hibernia&Alba]

But what does that actually mean? The prevailing argument on here today is that Scotland would be richer if independent. Are you saying it doesn't matter to you if it's richer or poorer?

If who is richer or poorer exactly? 'Scotland' would be richer. Again that tells me nothing. Everybody would be richer, especially those at the bottom? Great, I'm all for it.

[CropleyWasGod]

But what does that actually mean? The prevailing argument on here today is that Scotland would be richer if independent. Are you saying it doesn't matter to you if it's richer or poorer?

I think the point is equality.

If the economy, however you measure that, is more evenly shared out than it is just now, the intention should that the average person will be better off. That should hold even if the economy is smaller overall than it is now.

[archie]

If who is richer or poorer exactly? 'Scotland' would be richer. Again that tells me nothing. Everybody would be richer, especially those at the bottom? Great, I'm all for it.I:m sorry, I don't get the point.

[archie]

I think the point is equality.

If the economy, however you measure that, is more evenly shared out than it is just now, the intention should that the average person will be better off. That should hold even if the economy is smaller overall than it is now.OK how - higher taxation? More benefits?

[CropleyWasGod]

OK how - higher taxation? More benefits?

That's for greater minds than mine.

But I think we have a better shot at social justice and equality in an IS than we do in the UK. Our ruling parties tend to be more to the left, and our Parliament more democratic and accountable.

[Hibernia&Alba]

We need a sense of direction, IMHO. I would want to see an independent Scotland have a written Bill of Rights, guaranteeing in law the things every citizen must have as a minimum. I'm thinking of the Second Bill of Rights Franklin Roosevelt had in mind for America: the right to a decent home, the right to a job and a trade union, the right to medical treatment, the right to an education, the right to a fair trial etc etc.

That would given a direction of travel that would be a clear break from Tory Britain, and I think would really enthuse most voters in Scotland. We need some big ideas which demonstrate how any economic gains would be put into effect.

James Connolly said that Irish independence and democratic socialism were inseparable because replacing British capitalists with Irish capitalists would be a meaningless exercise. What difference would it make if the new is the same as the old but for a different accent, he asked. For me, Scottish independence cannot just mean replacing UK neoliberalism with Scottish neoliberalism. I think we need a proper conversation about the type of society we would want to create and how it would be different/better than what we have now. A Saltire flying where a Union Flag once flew is neither here nor there to me.

I think there is a severe lack of imagination in the independence debate.

[WhileTheChief..]

If who is richer or poorer exactly? 'Scotland' would be richer. Again that tells me nothing. Everybody would be richer, especially those at the bottom? Great, I'm all for it.

Surely it's about getting the poorest a higher standard of living? If that means a widening of the equality gap, so what?

Give everyone earning >£12,000 pa an extra £1,000 and the earnings gap stays the same.

Or give everyone a 10% rise and the least well off get £1,200 instead of £1,000 but the earnings gap has now widened.

I'm 100% in favour of the latter.

The earnings gap means nothing. Jeff Bezos's neighbour could complain about it!

[archie]

We need a sense of direction, IMHO. I would want to see an independent Scotland have a written Bill of Rights, guaranteeing in law the things every citizen must have as a minimum. I'm thinking of the Second Bill of Rights Franklin Roosevelt had in mind for America: the right to a decent home, the right to a job and a trade union, the right to medical treatment, the right to an education, the right to a fair trial etc etc.

That would given a direction of travel that would be a clear break from Tory Britain, and I think would really enthuse most voters in Scotland. We need some big ideas which demonstrate how any economic gains would be put into effect.

James Connolly said that Irish independence and democratic socialism were inseparable because replacing British capitalists with Irish capitalists would be a meaningless exercise. What difference would it make if the new is the same as the old but for a different accent, he asked. For me, Scottish independence cannot just mean replacing UK neoliberalism with Scottish neoliberalism. I think we need a proper conversation about the type of society we would want to create and how it would be different/better than what we have now. A Saltire flying where a Union Flag once flew is neither here nor there to me.

I think there is a severe lack of imagination in the independence debate.Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I:m sorry, I don't get the point.

You said people are saying "Scotland would be richer." Others are saying "Scotland would be poorer." Scotland isn't a person. WHO would be richer and WHO would be poorer and by how much, and what would change as a consequence?

Thatcher used to say, and the Tories still say, it's fine if the richest get richer by ten per cent, provided the poorer get richer by one per cent i.e. growing inequality isn't a problem. Well it is a problem, economically, politically and socially. An ever greater concentration of wealth at the top isn't just an economic issue. This is where statistics can become meaningless. "Scotland grew by five per cent last year." Okay, and how were lives changed by that, and whose lives changed? That's the real issue.

[lapsedhibee]

If the economy, however you measure that, is more evenly shared out than it is just now, the intention should that the average person will be better off. That should hold even if the economy is smaller overall than it is now.

A pedant writes:

Don't think the average person can be better off if the economy is smaller (and the country is worse off). :na na:

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61797726

Decent summary by the BBC of the document that appears to indicate the the SG is probably favouring a more Nordic model rather the Irish model. I think given Scottish voting patterns, that is inevitable anyway.


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[Hibernia&Alba]

Surely it's about getting the poorest a higher standard of living? If that means a widening of the equality gap, so what?

Give everyone earning >£12,000 pa an extra £1,000 and the earnings gap stays the same.

Or give everyone a 10% rise and the least well off get £1,200 instead of £1,000 but the earnings gap has now widened.

I'm 100% in favour of the latter.

The earnings gap means nothing. Jeff Bezos's neighbour could complain about it!

It does matter and not just economically, that's my point. Massive concentrations of wealth and power are also a threat to democracy, as we can see in the UK right now. Social mobility is falling all the time, so that today a child born poor is more likely to die poor than at any time since the 1920s. Ten individuals give the Conservative Party the bulk of its funding. They don't do it for charity; they get the kind of policies they want. They set up think tanks, own the newspapers and set the agenda. Look at the £12 billion missing from the NHS as a consequence of the government giving massive contracts to their cronies. One half of all British prime ministers attended the same school! Of course growing inequality matters; and, if we're just going to follow the same path in an independent Scotland, I don't see the point. We need to replace the UK society with something much better.

[He's here!]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20208923.no-second-independence-referendum-2039-says-uk-minister/

This sounds about right 😉

[Jack]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20208923.no-second-independence-referendum-2039-says-uk-minister/

This sounds about right 😉

It sounds very normal.

An Englishman deciding what Scotland can or cannot do.

[grunt]

Not really, do you think there will be a referendum next year? I do find it amusing how Nicola Sturgeon can launch new "campaigns" almost yearly and seems totally immune to criticism from within her own party.

I'm glad you find the Tory trashing of Scotland and its people, and of the futures of our children to be "amusing".

[Mon Dieu4]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20208923.no-second-independence-referendum-2039-says-uk-minister/

This sounds about right 😉

Would be a huge own goal, don't want to tell them how to run their campaign but letting another generation grow up disenfranchised with the union would be a huge own goal, especially when the older generation that feel more British won't be about to vote

[James310]

I'm glad you find the Tory trashing of Scotland and its people, and of the futures of our children to be "amusing".

I never said that though, that's your interpretation.

As I stated and was pretty clear I think I do find it amusing how a new Independence campaign or blueprint or roadmap is launched nearly every year and every year it turns into nothing. Maybe this time it will be different.

[He's here!]

The return of unionists posting Wing links.[emoji122][emoji122][emoji122][emoji23]


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I've never warmed to the guy but, like Salmond, he's an inconvenient irritant to the yes movement who once hung on his every word. He seems to have become the Nat version of Dominic Cummings, a once valuable ally but now regularly putting the boot into Saint Nicola with some uncomfortable truths.

[Hibby Bairn]

That's for greater minds than mine.

But I think we have a better shot at social justice and equality in an IS than we do in the UK. Our ruling parties tend to be more to the left, and our Parliament more democratic and accountable.

I think that is probably true. But politicians in Scotland (mainly SNP and Greens) struggle to explain how and where taxation income will come from to achieve their spending aims. And if they are explaining this then I haven't seen it.

I think we (they) are good at the spending side (some good policies) but I think they struggle with the economic growth side. Which in a country with high public sector employment and large land mass with very concentrated population density is something that needs a very clear plan.

[James310]

I've never warmed to the guy but, like Salmond, he's an inconvenient irritant to the yes movement who once hung on his every word. He seems to have become the Nat version of Dominic Cummings, a once valuable ally but now regularly putting the boot into Saint Nicola with some uncomfortable truths.

He used to be really popular here, and his wee blue book was distributed by many on here no doubt and many senior SNP politicians used to hand them out as well.

[James310]

I would add the debate has been good so far, the lack of personal attacks and abuse makes a difference.

[CropleyWasGod]

A pedant writes:

Don't think the average person can be better off if the economy is smaller (and the country is worse off). :na na:

I knew that was the wrong word when I typed it. 🤤

Like I say, greater minds than mine....

[grunt]

There's so much more to being part of the UK than political vitriol...culturally (music, theatre, literature...), geographically, on a sporting front...Are you suggesting you want to see a UK football team, instead of a Scotland team?

If we can have a separate Scotland football team why can't we have a separate Scotland?

[Mon Dieu4]

He used to be really popular here, and his wee blue book was distributed by many on here no doubt and many senior SNP politicians used to hand them out as well.

Jimmy Savile used to be popular too, now not so much, you are allowed to find out things about people you don't like and change your mind

He used to be a talented politician now he seems to have gone more crackpot and have a vendetta

[Ozyhibby]

He used to be really popular here, and his wee blue book was distributed by many on here no doubt and many senior SNP politicians used to hand them out as well.

He’s still popular on here.[emoji6][emoji23]


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[grunt]

I never said that though, that's your interpretation.

As I stated and was pretty clear I think I do find it amusing how a new Independence campaign or blueprint or roadmap is launched nearly every year and every year it turns into nothing. Maybe this time it will be different.You said it was amusing how Sturgeon continues to bring up the subject of independence, clearly implying that you find the suggestion risible. I think it's somewhat more serious than that.

[grunt]

Not my words below but a good summary, that I know 99% will disagree with though!

"Every single time any sort of argument is made for leaving the UK, the case isn’t made with reference to the Scottish economy, Scottish trade, Scottish public services, or Scottish jobs. They can’t talk about the Scottish economy because when they open the books, leaving the UK makes no sense. So instead they open their atlas and take us on a fanciful journey."
Of course you know that's simply not true. I can't believe you posted that and believe it to be true?

[James310]

He’s still popular on here.[emoji6][emoji23]


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Hardly, that's the first link in months.

[James310]

Of course you know that's simply not true. I can't believe you posted that and believe it to be true?

Oops. Sorry replied to the wrong thing.

[James310]

Of course you know that's simply not true. I can't believe you posted that and believe it to be true?

The paper today on the future of Scotland had no figures that were actually about Scotland, they were all UK figures. If you are doing a paper about the future of Scotland it would be reasonable to have data and figures about Scotland.

I would need to check but not one single graph or bar chart has Scotland in it, all UK.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1536728984809086977?t=8YZpD6zUXQYcP_JqbhznTg&s=19

New poll today.

Yes 45%
No 55%

28% think there should be a referendum in 2023.

Only 16% think Independence is in the top 3 priorities for Scotland.

I will wait for the it's YouGov so it's obviously biased etc!

[grunt]

New poll today.

Yes 45%
No 55%

28% think there should be a referendum in 2023.


I'm not saying it's biased, I have no idea if it is or not. But I do know those results do not make any sense to me. If no one wanted another ref why did everyone vote for parties proposing a ref in their manifestos?

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not saying it's biased, I have no idea if it is or not. But I do know those results do not make any sense to me. If no one wanted another ref why did everyone vote for parties proposing a ref in their manifestos?

Actual election results don’t count as much as Yougov polls when the Yougov poll gives you the result you want.[emoji6]


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[ronaldo7]

Actual election results don’t count as much as Yougov polls when the Yougov poll gives you the result you want.[emoji6]


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That'll be it all off then, as nobody reached 60%

[James310]

I'm not saying it's biased, I have no idea if it is or not. But I do know those results do not make any sense to me. If no one wanted another ref why did everyone vote for parties proposing a ref in their manifestos?

'Everyone' voted for parties that had a referendum in their manifesto? Wasn't it split pretty much 50/50 if you looked at the votes across parties that supported Independence against those that don't.

[Ozyhibby]

That'll be it all off then, as nobody reached 60%

And it’s not even 2039!


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[JeMeSouviens]

A pedant writes:

Don't think the average person can be better off if the economy is smaller (and the country is worse off). :na na:

Is a pedant someone who doesn’t understand that average doesn’t always mean mean? :wink:

[Paul1642]

I'm not saying it's biased, I have no idea if it is or not. But I do know those results do not make any sense to me. If no one wanted another ref why did everyone vote for parties proposing a ref in their manifestos?

I think the reason for this is that anyone who wants Indy is near guaranteed to vote for an independence supporting party, whereas there are a fair few out there who do not want Indy / are not sure, but can’t quite bring themselves to vote for the current labour / conservative party’s. Let’s not forgot that SNP have already lost one referendum despite having been in power for quite some time.

I suspect more people vote green due to eco concerns rather than independence for example.

[James310]

I suspect the SNP will act today.


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They have suspended him from the party, wait for it, for a whole 2 days. That will teach him.

https://news.stv.tv/politics/former-snp-chief-whip-patrick-grady-suspended-from-party-and-commons-over-sexual-misconduct


Patricia Gibson up next for sexual misconduct as well I believe, perhaps on the same teenager.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the reason for this is that anyone who wants Indy is near guaranteed to vote for an independence supporting party, whereas there are a fair few out there who do not want Indy / are not sure, but can’t quite bring themselves to vote for the current labour / conservative party’s. Let’s not forgot that SNP have already lost one referendum despite having been in power for quite some time.

I suspect more people vote green due to eco concerns rather than independence for example.

That’s a shame. We live in a partial democracy though and if you want or don’t want a referendum then you need to vote accordingly.


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[Col2]

I have never been a fan of Sturgeon or the SNP. I just don’t think they have done enough in 14 years.

I have been open minded to independence (as you can divorce the two) but felt with Brexit and pandemic disasters, timing was not right for another vote. I am a numbers guy and like data - and have never seen a clear business case to underpin the key financial aspects (even with ranges).

However I can’t help get drawn into the emotional pull of todays announcements. Our country is truly screwed IF it has to live in what is turning into an exteme right wing facist insular populist GB.

Do I want a progressive, open, healthy, happier, wealthier country for my kids and future generations? Absolutely. We live in an amazing country, we have natural resources, innovation and a history that other countries don’t even come close to matching.

I am now in the camp of being far more on board than I was IF the FM can deliver a proper financial plan with credibility.

[Ozyhibby]

I have never been a fan of Sturgeon or the SNP. I just don’t think they have done enough in 14 years.

I have been open minded to independence (as you can divorce the two) but felt with Brexit and pandemic disasters, timing was not right for another vote. I am a numbers guy and like data - and have never seen a clear business case to underpin the key financial aspects (even with ranges).

However I can’t help get drawn into the emotional pull of todays announcements. Our country is truly screwed IF it has to live in what is turning into an exteme right wing facist insular populist GB.

Do I want a progressive, open, healthy, happier, wealthier country for my kids and future generations? Absolutely. We live in an amazing country, we have natural resources, innovation and a history that other countries don’t even come close to matching.

I am now in the camp of being far more on board than I was IF the FM can deliver a proper financial plan with credibility.

We also have great people. We are one of the best educated populations in Europe. I’m sure once we put our mind to it we will have the smarts to improve on the current arrangements.


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[lapsedhibee]

Is a pedant someone who doesn’t understand that average doesn’t always mean mean? :wink:

:grr: :panic:

[danhibees1875]

That’s a shame. We live in a partial democracy though and if you want or don’t want a referendum then you need to vote accordingly.


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Can people vote accordingly for their desire on other topics, or should they just base their vote on the question of a referendum?

I understand why people would vote green, or even SNP, without wanting a referendum. Same goes for any number of topics that that any party stands for - chances are you aren't going to agree unilaterally with everything a party stands for and just have to pick the one which is most compatible.

Do I want to go down the rabbit hole of asking why you've put "partial" before democracy, or should I have a coffee first? :greengrin

[He's here!]

Are you suggesting you want to see a UK football team, instead of a Scotland team?

If we can have a separate Scotland football team why can't we have a separate Scotland?

No I'm not suggesting that. The home nations events across various sports are an integral aspect of British sport. Just pointing out how richly Scottish sportsmen and women have contributed to British sporting success down the years.

[He's here!]

Just one answer would be good. Come on boys and girls. Pipe up.

The 'mandate' for this latest attempt was cobbled together by enabling Patrick Harvie to put himself front and centre at yesterday's launch. That alone should be reason enough to see the whole thing kicked into touch.

[grunt]

No I'm not suggesting that. The home nations events across various sports are an integral aspect of British sport. Just pointing out how richly Scottish sportsmen and women have contributed to British sporting success down the years.
I agree. But I'm not sure it's an argument for the continuation of the Union. I'd expect an independent Scotland to continue to contribute to home nations events.

[Ozyhibby]

Can people vote accordingly for their desire on other topics, or should they just base their vote on the question of a referendum?

I understand why people would vote green, or even SNP, without wanting a referendum. Same goes for any number of topics that that any party stands for - chances are you aren't going to agree unilaterally with everything a party stands for and just have to pick the one which is most compatible.

Do I want to go down the rabbit hole of asking why you've put "partial" before democracy, or should I have a coffee first? :greengrin

I gave my list vote to the greens last time out even though there are a few things like rent control that I think are totally mad ideas that will make matters worse for tenants. I accept though that it was in their manifesto and they have a right to try pursue it.
Partial democracy isn’t really contentious when you have the House of Lords and the Monarchy.


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[ronaldo7]

The 'mandate' for this latest attempt was cobbled together by enabling Patrick Harvie to put himself front and centre at yesterday's launch. That alone should be reason enough to see the whole thing kicked into touch.


Not good enough. Sorry. Both parties had a referendum in their manifestos. We have a majority in parliament. Why is it different now, if it was good enough in 2012, or, is the UK parliament the only one to have two parties have a majority, and be allowed to "cobble together" to govern. See Cameron, and Clegg, or May, and the DUP.

[Santa Cruz]

The 'mandate' for this latest attempt was cobbled together by enabling Patrick Harvie to put himself front and centre at yesterday's launch. That alone should be reason enough to see the whole thing kicked into touch.

Re: this dude. Never really payed attention to him before, did hear him and the FM get asked about their opposing views on economic growth. Just want to check I took in his answer correctly that the Greens don't support economic growth? If this is correct, can anyone explain how the country becomes richer and improves quality of life for all citizens, more importantly lifting the most disadvantaged out of poverty. I don't understand how that is possible without economic growth. If they don't both agree, how do they resolve that disagreement.

[Moulin Yarns]

Re: this dude. Never really payed attention to him before, did hear him and the FM get asked about their opposing views on economic growth. Just want to check I took in his answer correctly that the Greens don't support economic growth? If this is correct, can anyone explain how the country becomes richer and improves quality of life for all citizens, more importantly lifting the most disadvantaged out of poverty. I don't understand how that is possible without economic growth. If they don't both agree, how do they resolve that disagreement.

I think what he said was economic growth is unsustainable as it leads to environmental degradation.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/120515/infinite-economic-growth-finite-planet-possible.asp#:~:text=Key%20Takeaways,that%20econom ic%20growth%20is%20unsustainable.

[Santa Cruz]

I think what he said was economic growth is unsustainable as it leads to environmental degradation.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/120515/infinite-economic-growth-finite-planet-possible.asp#:~:text=Key%20Takeaways,that%20econom ic%20growth%20is%20unsustainable.

Thanks MY. Still none the wiser about improving quality of life without economic growth, but perhaps that's down to my limited knowledge on the subject. :aok:

[Ozyhibby]

Re: this dude. Never really payed attention to him before, did hear him and the FM get asked about their opposing views on economic growth. Just want to check I took in his answer correctly that the Greens don't support economic growth? If this is correct, can anyone explain how the country becomes richer and improves quality of life for all citizens, more importantly lifting the most disadvantaged out of poverty. I don't understand how that is possible without economic growth. If they don't both agree, how do they resolve that disagreement.

They resolve it by Harvie accepting the Greens are very much the junior partner in the coalition so have to accept that the SNP policy is the one that is followed.


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[Stairway 2 7]

I gave my list vote to the greens last time out even though there are a few things like rent control that I think are totally mad ideas that will make matters worse for tenants. I accept though that it was in their manifesto and they have a right to try pursue it.
Partial democracy isn’t really contentious when you have the House of Lords and the Monarchy.


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Same they got my second vote due to independence but half of their policies are awful and in fairyland. I'm happy with someone in parliament pushing a green agenda though.

[Santa Cruz]

They resolve it by Harvie accepting the Greens are very much the junior partner in the coalition so have to accept that the SNP policy is the one that is followed.


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It was in their manifesto presumably, you said in an earlier post they have a right to pursue their manifesto pledges. Why would they ditch this one? Surely you would apply the same logic to all their pledges. no?

[Ozyhibby]

It was in their manifesto presumably, you said in an earlier post they have a right to pursue their manifesto pledges. Why would they ditch this one? Surely you would apply the same logic to all their pledges. no?

I’m sure they did pursue it in the negotiations and would vote for it in parliament but sometimes there are fights you just can’t win.


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[Santa Cruz]

I’m sure they did pursue it in the negotiations and would vote for it in parliament but sometimes there are fights you just can’t win.


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Like a Nick Clegg type scenario, understood. Ta for explaining.

[James310]

Angus Robertson this morning on the radio.

"The First Minister made clear yesterday that she intends to make an announcement to the Scottish Parliament in the forthcoming weeks about a route map towards a referendum which we intend to hold next October,"

Why can he tell us today it's October 2023 but Nicola Sturgeon couldn't tell us yesterday at the press conference?

Weird.

[Ozyhibby]

Angus Robertson this morning on the radio.

"The First Minister made clear yesterday that she intends to make an announcement to the Scottish Parliament in the forthcoming weeks about a route map towards a referendum which we intend to hold next October,"

Why can he tell us today it's October 2023 but Nicola Sturgeon couldn't tell us yesterday at the press conference?

Weird.

I don’t think there is anybody out there that doesn’t know they are aiming for Autumn 2023? The date isn’t as important as the how.


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[JeMeSouviens]

It does matter and not just economically, that's my point. Massive concentrations of wealth and power are also a threat to democracy, as we can see in the UK right now. Social mobility is falling all the time, so that today a child born poor is more likely to die poor than at any time since the 1920s. Ten individuals give the Conservative Party the bulk of its funding. They don't do it for charity; they get the kind of policies they want. They set up think tanks, own the newspapers and set the agenda. Look at the £12 billion missing from the NHS as a consequence of the government giving massive contracts to their cronies. One half of all British prime ministers attended the same school! Of course growing inequality matters; and, if we're just going to follow the same path in an independent Scotland, I don't see the point. We need to replace the UK society with something much better.

Great post.

https://hbr.org/2016/01/income-inequality-makes-whole-countries-less-happy

[WhileTheChief..]

Ok, so let’s take half the wealth off the very wealthiest in society.

The gap is now drastically reduced but those at the bottom aren’t a penny better off.

How is that in any way better?

[CropleyWasGod]

Ok, so let’s take half the wealth off the very wealthiest in society.

The gap is now drastically reduced but those at the bottom aren’t a penny better off.

How is that in any way better?

It depends what that extra money is spent on, no?

If it's spent on improving health, education and other public services,the ones that directly affect those on lower incomes, that has to be a good thing.

[Ozyhibby]

Ok, so let’s take half the wealth off the very wealthiest in society.

The gap is now drastically reduced but those at the bottom aren’t a penny better off.

How is that in any way better?

Sometimes it’s not about just taking money off people directly. Why do you think we are so unequal compared to other European countries? It’s not because of one big policy. It’s lots of little things. Better workers rights, workers involved in boardrooms of companies, access to affordable childcare, improvement in schools. There is no magic bullet and it would take time to bring Scotland up to the standards of Denmark, Sweden etc but we will never get there unless we actually start. The UK govt does not even have it as a goal so it will never start. We have to do this ourselves.


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[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/alanferrier/status/1453313934241505283?t=cav-jET_ozPvZb1U7XS97w&s=19


Get that man signed up to lead the campaign

[Berwickhibby]

I missed PMQ’s …did the shouty wee man demand Patrick Grady’s resignation for being a sex pest :confused:

[Ozyhibby]

I missed PMQ’s …did the shouty wee man demand Patrick Grady’s resignation for being a sex pest :confused:

Your developing a wee obsession with him.[emoji23]


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[Berwickhibby]

Your developing a wee obsession with him.[emoji23]


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No just wondering, if there would be any outrage at a sex pest in the work place …obviously not

[Ozyhibby]

No just wondering, if there would be any outrage at a sex pest in the work place …obviously not

What did he do in the workplace?


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[grunt]

I missed PMQ’s …did the shouty wee man demand Patrick Grady’s resignation for being a sex pest :confused:
As I understand it, this case has been reviewed by an independent panel of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, who has issued their findings. Are you suggesting that the independent probe into the case arrived at the wrong conclusion? And if they did, how is this the fault of Ian Blackford?

[James310]

As I understand it, this case has been reviewed by an independent panel of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, who has issued their findings. Are you suggesting that the independent probe into the case arrived at the wrong conclusion? And if they did, how is this the fault of Ian Blackford?

What has Ian Blackford done about it though? So far it seems his punishment is a 2 day suspension from the party. Is that sufficient?

Nicola Sturgeon was going on about a zero tolerance approach to sexual misconduct.

If a Tory had been found guilty of sexual misconduct with a teenage member of their staff would you be calling for him/her to resign?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-accused-shamefully-weak-punishment-27240915

[Moulin Yarns]

I missed PMQ’s …did the shouty wee man demand Patrick Grady’s resignation for being a sex pest :confused:

I missed it as well, but I think Stumper concentrated on the quality of the coffee. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

What did he do in the workplace?


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:agree::agree:

[WhileTheChief..]

Sometimes it’s not about just taking money off people directly. Why do you think we are so unequal compared to other European countries? It’s not because of one big policy. It’s lots of little things. Better workers rights, workers involved in boardrooms of companies, access to affordable childcare, improvement in schools. There is no magic bullet and it would take time to bring Scotland up to the standards of Denmark, Sweden etc but we will never get there unless we actually start. The UK govt does not even have it as a goal so it will never start. We have to do this ourselves.


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Taking petrol prices as an example, Iceland, Finland, Denmark and Norway occupy 4 of the top 5 most expensive slots for a litre of petrol in the world.

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/

Meanwhile we're moaning non stop about the cost of living crisis, and fuel in particular.

You'll not find the perfect country anywhere. Denmark and Sweden may be good at some things, but they're not Utopia.

The UK does have a goal. You just don't agree with it or like it or think it's real!

[Ozyhibby]

Taking petrol prices as an example, Iceland, Finland, Denmark and Norway occupy 4 of the top 5 most expensive slots for a litre of petrol in the world.

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/

Meanwhile we're moaning non stop about the cost of living crisis, and fuel in particular.

You'll not find the perfect country anywhere. Denmark and Sweden may be good at some things, but they're not Utopia.

The UK does have a goal. You just don't agree with it or like it or think it's real!

Wages in those countries are also a lot higher. A danish mcdonalds worker earns about 80% more than a UK McDonald’s worker.


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[Since90+2]

Wages in those countries are also a lot higher. A danish mcdonalds worker earns about 80% more than a UK McDonald’s worker.


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Do we know what the average Danish worker earns and how much they take home after tax? It would then give a direct comparison as to the cost of living directly to the UK.

[WhileTheChief..]

Wages in those countries are also a lot higher. A danish mcdonalds worker earns about 80% more than a UK McDonald’s worker.


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And a Big Mac costs a lot more than here n the UK.

So, yeah, they get paid more but also have to pay more!

[James310]

Wages in those countries are also a lot higher. A danish mcdonalds worker earns about 80% more than a UK McDonald’s worker.


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So you will agree with Boris Johnson when he talks about a "high wage and high skill" economy? You may think he will never deliver it but you agree with his goal?

[Ozyhibby]

So you will agree with Boris Johnson when he talks about a "high wage and high skill" economy? You may think he will never deliver it but you agree with his goal?

I don’t believe it’s even his goal. It’s just a line he throws out.


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[James310]

I don’t believe it’s even his goal. It’s just a line he throws out.


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But you agree with the sentiment? He has said it many times as a Tory policy.

[JeMeSouviens]

Do we know what the average Danish worker earns and how much they take home after tax? It would then give a direct comparison as to the cost of living directly to the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage

[Stairway 2 7]

£16 an hour minimum wage in Norway but not sure of take home pay. Didn't think it was too expensive when I was there, although maybe because I'm used to Edinburgh prices

[Kato]

But you agree with the sentiment? He has said it many times as a Tory policy.How is he going about achieving this? It was just a line he said at a time when he was under pressure. No one had heard it before and no one knew which levers he was pulling to help this happen. The first thing he could have done was ban zero hours contracts, hasn't happened.

Words are great but inaction makes his words empty. He'd say the moon lived in his basement if it bought him 5 seconds in an interview. An absolute blether.

Or maybe you can point out the actual actions which are going to make this happen?

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[Since90+2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage

So overall the UK is doing not too badly if it's 14rh highest in the world. Effectively the same as Ireland.

[Ozyhibby]

So overall the UK is doing not too badly if it's 14rh highest in the world. Effectively the same as Ireland.

Except our average is skewed by the fact the a small number of people earn really massive wages, mostly in London.
The average wage in Scotland will be nowhere near that UK figure.
Unless you really believe the average wage in Scotland is £47k?


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[Since90+2]

Except our average is skewed by the fact the a small number of people earn really massive wages, mostly in London.
The average wage in Scotland will be nowhere near that UK figure.
Unless you really believe the average wage in Scotland is £47k?


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I'm not sure if that's an argument for or against independence to be honest.

[CropleyWasGod]

Isn't this chat about comparing wages and cost of living a bit redundant?

When comparing societies, is it not better to compare the relative satisfactions in each country, in terms of quality of life? After all, life isn't just about the cost of beer.

From memory, the Nordic countries regularly are near the top of those surveys for the "best" places to live.

[danhibees1875]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage

I'm clearly missing something...

$47k... after tax?

I thought our average wage was about £30k ($36k), and before tax. That would be £24k ($29k) after tax which this appears to be.

Or is the jump from $29k to the $47k reflective of better purchasing power in the UK? :confused:

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm clearly missing something...

$47k... after tax?

I thought our average wage was about £30k ($36k), and before tax. That would be £24k ($29k) after tax which this appears to be.

Or is the jump from $29k to the $47k reflective of better purchasing power in the UK? :confused:

On that page, the average is a mean whereas quoted average wages are usually median. So a larger number of high earners which the UK has v Denmark would skew things somewhat. I'm not sure what difference the PPP adjustments make, tbh.

[James310]

How is he going about achieving this? It was just a line he said at a time when he was under pressure. No one had heard it before and no one knew which levers he was pulling to help this happen. The first thing he could have done was ban zero hours contracts, hasn't happened.

Words are great but inaction makes his words empty. He'd say the moon lived in his basement if it bought him 5 seconds in an interview. An absolute blether.

Or maybe you can point out the actual actions which are going to make this happen?

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I don't think he will, he can't do pretty much anything. It wasn't just a line though, it was a pretty major policy announcement.

I was asking if the poster agreed with the sentiment though.

[JeMeSouviens]

Isn't this chat about comparing wages and cost of living a bit redundant?

When comparing societies, is it not better to compare the relative satisfactions in each country, in terms of quality of life? After all, life isn't just about the cost of beer.

From memory, the Nordic countries regularly are near the top of those surveys for the "best" places to live.

https://hbr.org/resources/images/article_assets/2016/01/W151228_DENEVE_NATIONALWELLBEING.png

[lapsedhibee]

I don't think he will, he can't do pretty much anything. It wasn't just a line though, it was a pretty major policy announcement.

I was asking if the poster agreed with the sentiment though.

Don't. Be. Daft.

[CropleyWasGod]

https://hbr.org/resources/images/article_assets/2016/01/W151228_DENEVE_NATIONALWELLBEING.png

Thanks.

So is that not where the conversation should be centred?

[Hibs90]

Can't wait for independence. One day, whether next year on in the future. It's going to happen.

Interesting account for people to follow; https://twitter.com/msm_monitor

Explains how the media manipulates and pushes propaganda very well. Better than I could put it.

[Stairway 2 7]

Hard to judge standards of life but Scandinavian countries pretty much always above us. We do come high in all of them though. We obviously are very fortunate in where we were born and many of our complaints are first world problems. We take for granted things that people in other countries can only dream of. That doesn't mean we shouldn't push for more equality and a better life

https://ceoworld.biz/2021/06/20/the-worlds-best-countries-for-quality-of-life-2021/

11th

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

14th

Numbeo qli has us at 21st

[James310]

Don't. Be. Daft.

Believe what you want but it was announced at the party conference. While we agree it won't happen let's not pretend it isn't a "thing" they said they would do.

As I say I was just asking if the poster agreed with the sentiment, that's all.

[Jack]

Taking petrol prices as an example, Iceland, Finland, Denmark and Norway occupy 4 of the top 5 most expensive slots for a litre of petrol in the world.

https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/

Meanwhile we're moaning non stop about the cost of living crisis, and fuel in particular.

You'll not find the perfect country anywhere. Denmark and Sweden may be good at some things, but they're not Utopia.

The UK does have a goal. You just don't agree with it or like it or think it's real!

The UK has a goal!!!

Pray tell. Other than feathering their own nests I can't think of one.

[JeMeSouviens]

The UK has a goal!!!

Pray tell. Other than feathering their own nests I can't think of one.

The Johnson administration is entirely devoted to keeping Johnson in office. The goal is whatever his donors/the ERG/focus groups say is most likely to achieve that on any given day.

[JeMeSouviens]

Thanks.

So is that not where the conversation should be centred?

Well, it would be novel.

tbh, just living in a country that doesn't do ****** heartless ******* things to its own poor or those fleeing the result of its previous foreign policies seems like enough to be going on with.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Ok, so let’s take half the wealth off the very wealthiest in society.

The gap is now drastically reduced but those at the bottom aren’t a penny better off.

How is that in any way better?

I take it you mean use a progressive income tax so that the very wealthiest contribute more?

Well, what would that money be spent on? Those at the bottom are better off, if that revenue is used to build/provide every homeless person with shelter. Those at the bottom are better off, if it's used to increase welfare and in work benefits, such as Working Families Tax Credits. Those at the bottom are better off, if it's used to reduce classroom sizes and hospital waiting times. There are so many ways it could be used to make those at the bottom better off.

Then there's the wider consequences of progressive taxation. Vast concentrations of wealth means vast concentrations of power, which is a threat to a functioning democracy. A more equal society will, by definition, have greater social mobility, and isn't equality of opportunity meant to be the aim? We're told we want everyone to achieve by their hard work, but you can't have equality of opportunity in very unequal societies in which a massively wealthy elite can buy the best of everything whilst public services are slashed for everyone else. Massive hereditary wealth is the opposite of equality of opportunity. The beneficiaries of that system will set the agenda for society, which will be an agenda of protecting their own position. This is how we end up in a position where half of British prime ministers attended the same school. It's as if accident of birth is more important than hard work and talent. Wealthy parents equals a far better chance of success. If you're born into poverty, good luck.

[Kato]

I don't think he will, he can't do pretty much anything. It wasn't just a line though, it was a pretty major policy announcement.

I was asking if the poster agreed with the sentiment though.

What was the follow through to the "major policy announcement"?

The sentiment is great but just having a politician say the words doesn't mean a thing.

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[WhileTheChief..]

I take it you mean use a progressive income tax so that the very wealthiest contribute more?

Well, what would that money be spent on? Those at the bottom are better off, if that revenue is used to build/provide every homeless person with shelter. Those at the bottom are better off, if it's used to increase welfare and in work benefits, such as Working Families Tax Credits. Those at the bottom are better off, if it's used to reduce classroom sizes and hospital waiting times. There are so many ways it could be used to make those at the bottom better off.

Then there's the wider consequences of progressive taxation. Vast concentrations of wealth means vast concentrations of power, which is a threat to a functioning democracy. A more equal society will, by definition, have greater social mobility, and isn't equality of opportunity meant to be the aim? We're told we want everyone to achieve by their hard work, but you can't have equality of opportunity in very unequal societies in which a massively wealthy elite can buy the best of everything whilst public services are slashed for everyone else. Massive hereditary wealth is the opposite of equality of opportunity. The beneficiaries of that system will set the agenda for society, which will be an agenda of protecting their own position. This is how we end up in a position where half of British prime ministers attended the same school. It's as if accident of birth is more important than hard work and talent. Wealthy parents equals a far better chance of success. If you're born into poverty, good luck.

Decent post, I can't argue with any of it.

I've said before that I'm in favour of taxing wealth before income, especially hereditary.

Not sure how it would work in practise and I assume it's not easy to do or it would be popular throughout the world?

I would add though, that if you're born into poverty in the UK you can still make something of yourself. Plenty do. I'll bet a fair few on here could say it of themselves.

[James310]

What was the follow through to the "major policy announcement"?

The sentiment is great but just having a politician say the words doesn't mean a thing.

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Well nothing obviously, but again the point being there is talk of an Indy Scotland being a high wage high skilled economy, now like it or not that's a Tory party policy. That's basically Denmark and Norway.

Inflation at the rate it has gone to has changed things, even the Scottish Government were saying wage increases need to be tempered at this time.

[He's here!]

Re: this dude. Never really payed attention to him before, did hear him and the FM get asked about their opposing views on economic growth. Just want to check I took in his answer correctly that the Greens don't support economic growth? If this is correct, can anyone explain how the country becomes richer and improves quality of life for all citizens, more importantly lifting the most disadvantaged out of poverty. I don't understand how that is possible without economic growth. If they don't both agree, how do they resolve that disagreement.

He's a tool of the highest order. His party's views on the trans issue are downright dangerous. Thoroughly poisonous individual who will (hopefully) do more damage to the independence movement than good.

[Keith_M]

Boris Johnson has already stated that a decision was made in 2014 and that you don't renege on previous decisions.


And I can't think of a greater authority on such moral matters than Boris Johnson

[Kato]

Well nothing obviously, but again the point being there is talk of an Indy Scotland being a high wage high skilled economy, now like it or not that's a Tory party policy. That's basically Denmark and Norway.

Inflation at the rate it has gone to has changed things, even the Scottish Government were saying wage increases need to be tempered at this time.It means hee haw if its Tory policy. He might as well increase immigration to attract the best and most intelligent Daleks or push the success Peppa Pig as a major player in the UK...oh wait...40 hospitals, a nuclear power plant built every year, 200,000 new houses, 300,000 new houses....its all fluff because we know that no matter what they say their remit is to please their paymasters from here and abroad.

Sentiment schmentiment.

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[James310]

He's a tool of the highest order. His party's views on the trans issue are downright dangerous. Thoroughly poisonous individual who will (hopefully) do more damage to the independence movement than good.

His comrade Ross Greer was proud to be called a communist. They would close down big business and ban profits if they could get away with it.

"The enemy is profit" was something he tweeted and I am pretty sure in an Indy Scotland we would quite like businesses to make profit and generate taxes?

The Greens are dangerous, they oppose economic growth the very thing a newly independent Scotland would need in spades.

[Hibernia&Alba]

His comrade Ross Greer was proud to be called a communist. They would close down big business and ban profits if they could get away with it.

"The enemy is profit" was something he tweeted and I am pretty sure in an Indy Scotland we would quite like businesses to make profit and generate taxes?

The Greens are dangerous, they oppose economic growth the very thing a newly independent Scotland would need in spades.

Perpetual economic growth is probably impossible on a planet of finite resources, and it's when capitalism falters that it's really challenged e.g. 1929 and 2008. If one day economic growth is no longer possible, people will then protest and get angry. There might well come a day when we are forced to realise growth is no longer possible and it's more a question of how we distribute what we have. No system in history has lasted forever and there is no reason to presume capitalism will be the exception.

[Ozyhibby]

Perpetual economic growth is probably impossible on a planet of finite resources, and it's when capitalism falters that it's really challenged e.g. 1929 and 2008. If one day economic growth is no longer possible, people will then protest and get angry. There might well come a day when we are forced to realise growth is no longer possible and it's more a question of how we distribute what we have. No system in history has lasted forever and there is no reason to presume capitalism will be the exception.

When did capitalism begin?


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[James310]

Perpetual economic growth is probably impossible on a planet of finite resources, and it's when capitalism falters that it's really challenged e.g. 1929 and 2008. If one day economic growth is no longer possible, people will then protest and get angry. There might well come a day when we are forced to realise growth is no longer possible and it's more a question of how we distribute what we have. No system in history has lasted forever and there is no reason to presume capitalism will be the exception.

It's the only show in town for the moment though, it's what makes the jobs and brings in the taxes. I saw your previous posts and this tweet from Jonathon Shafi from yesterday came to mind, not sure if you are aware if him but I reckon he is on your wavelength i.e. wants Indy but wants a different kind of Indy that the SNP seem to be pursuing.

https://twitter.com/Jonathon_Shafi/status/1536659551671529474?t=_ssvX9p7v-TX9VR-EcVRAA&s=19


"The line that says "let's have a different economic model to the UK" is skin deep. The SNP embrace neoliberalism, sell off assets via foreign capital and outsource on a grand scale. UK financial institutions are to retain economic power over Scotland under the SNP plan too"

[Hibernia&Alba]

When did capitalism begin?


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Modern capitalism as we know it is dated to around the 16th century. So that's around 500 years from 100,000 years of human beings. At some point capitalism won't be around. Then again, at some point human beings won't be around, though the earth will continue - provided we don't destroy it first. Will humans be around to see the end of capitalism?

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's the only show in town for the moment though, it's what makes the jobs and brings in the taxes. I saw your previous posts and this tweet from Jonathon Shafi from yesterday came to mind, not sure if you are aware if him but I reckon he is on your wavelength i.e. wants Indy but wants a different kind of Indy that the SNP seem to be pursuing.

https://twitter.com/Jonathon_Shafi/status/1536659551671529474?t=_ssvX9p7v-TX9VR-EcVRAA&s=19


"The line that says "let's have a different economic model to the UK" is skin deep. The SNP embrace neoliberalism, sell off assets via foreign capital and outsource on a grand scale. UK financial institutions are to retain economic power over Scotland under the SNP plan too"

I agree, the SNP is only mildly social democratic. Then again, I've never voted SNP. Their policies are for their members to decide.

[Ozyhibby]

It's the only show in town for the moment though, it's what makes the jobs and brings in the taxes. I saw your previous posts and this tweet from Jonathon Shafi from yesterday came to mind, not sure if you are aware if him but I reckon he is on your wavelength i.e. wants Indy but wants a different kind of Indy that the SNP seem to be pursuing.

https://twitter.com/Jonathon_Shafi/status/1536659551671529474?t=_ssvX9p7v-TX9VR-EcVRAA&s=19


"The line that says "let's have a different economic model to the UK" is skin deep. The SNP embrace neoliberalism, sell off assets via foreign capital and outsource on a grand scale. UK financial institutions are to retain economic power over Scotland under the SNP plan too"

What assets have the SNP been selling off?


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[Stairway 2 7]

It's the only show in town for the moment though, it's what makes the jobs and brings in the taxes. I saw your previous posts and this tweet from Jonathon Shafi from yesterday came to mind, not sure if you are aware if him but I reckon he is on your wavelength i.e. wants Indy but wants a different kind of Indy that the SNP seem to be pursuing.

https://twitter.com/Jonathon_Shafi/status/1536659551671529474?t=_ssvX9p7v-TX9VR-EcVRAA&s=19


"The line that says "let's have a different economic model to the UK" is skin deep. The SNP embrace neoliberalism, sell off assets via foreign capital and outsource on a grand scale. UK financial institutions are to retain economic power over Scotland under the SNP plan too"

Agree with what he says. Snp are verging on new Labour. But they are clearly the road to independence. It will be a multiple times easier to change Scotland post independence than in the uk.

[Stairway 2 7]

I think Joanne cherry is going to have to come out of the sidelines ,as will be a very strong asset to the legal referendum push

Joanna Cherry QC
@joannaccherry
·
Note to scaremongering unionist politicians on #indyref2.
@theSNP
has never proposed an “illegal” referendum. Instead the party adopted my suggestion based on a body of respectable legal opinion that
@ScotParl
might competently legislate for one

[James310]

What assets have the SNP been selling off?


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You would need to ask him as he said it, but I suspect he was meaning the sell off of the offshore wind farm seabed to companies of the likes of BP and Shell. His argument was they should have been held in public hands.

[Santa Cruz]

I think Joanne cherry is going to have to come out of the sidelines ,as will be a very strong asset to the legal referendum push

Joanna Cherry QC
@joannaccherry
·
Note to scaremongering unionist politicians on #indyref2.
@theSNP
has never proposed an “illegal” referendum. Instead the party adopted my suggestion based on a body of respectable legal opinion that
@ScotParl
might competently legislate for one

Told you's. She's the clever cookie in the party. I'd want her front and centre if I wanted Independence. So, so obvious. Side-lined as viewed as a leadership threat imo.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Agree with what he says. Snp are verging on new Labour. But they are clearly the road to independence. It will be a multiple times easier to change Scotland post independence than in the uk.

I agree, and though the SNP are far from perfect, I would much rather have mild social democracy than more Thatcherism on steroids. It seems to me that Scotland and England are on divergent paths that aren't going to be unified. It was Brexit that made my mind up. Prior to that, I had hoped there was a way forward; what the Tories have done since Brexit has convinced me the gap is widening.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Let's inject some sense into the debate via GB News. :greengrin


https://youtu.be/p84qckYYTcI

[Ozyhibby]

Told you's. She's the clever cookie in the party. I'd want her front and centre if I wanted Independence. So, so obvious. Side-lined as viewed as a leadership threat imo.

Think it more to do with the fact that she doesn’t play nice with her colleagues. Legally though she is definitely an asset for the SNP although I’m sure they are not short of good lawyers.


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[Santa Cruz]

Think it more to do with the fact that she doesn’t play nice with her colleagues. Legally though she is definitely an asset for the SNP although I’m sure they are not short of good lawyers.


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She has a voice and uses it. Nowt wrong with that, only those who feel threatened by people like that oppose it. You said in an earlier post she does nothing for her Constituents, what does the FM do for her's? Genuinely curious to know.

[James310]

Think it more to do with the fact that she doesn’t play nice with her colleagues. Legally though she is definitely an asset for the SNP although I’m sure they are not short of good lawyers.


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A free thinker, can't be having that. The SNP have an impressive hold over their MPs and especially the MSPs. You will never survive in the modern SNP unless you tow the line from Nicola Sturgeon and her CEO husband (which I think is still an odd set up,. husband and wife running the most powerful party in Scotland)

[Santa Cruz]

A free thinker, can't be having that. The SNP have an impressive hold over their MPs and especially the MSPs. You will never survive in the modern SNP unless you tow the line from Nicola Sturgeon and her CEO husband (which I think is still an odd set up,. husband and wife running the most powerful party in Scotland)

100% this. The husband and wife combo, how do you challenge that. At least in WM, they have the Lords (although also dislike they are not elected) and other big influential Gov Depts who will challenge and disagree with the PM's office. There's nobody able to do that with the SNP.

[He's here!]

His comrade Ross Greer was proud to be called a communist. They would close down big business and ban profits if they could get away with it.

"The enemy is profit" was something he tweeted and I am pretty sure in an Indy Scotland we would quite like businesses to make profit and generate taxes?

The Greens are dangerous, they oppose economic growth the very thing a newly independent Scotland would need in spades.

And how about Harvie's sidekick Slater who thinks kids should take puberty blockers while they mull over what gender they want to be? I'd laugh her off as just a bit glaikit but she's got a seat in the Scottish cabinet. Terrifying.

[wookie70]

His comrade Ross Greer was proud to be called a communist. They would close down big business and ban profits if they could get away with it.

"The enemy is profit" was something he tweeted and I am pretty sure in an Indy Scotland we would quite like businesses to make profit and generate taxes?

The Greens are dangerous, they oppose economic growth the very thing a newly independent Scotland would need in spades.

They oppose growth that will kill the planet. Fairly sensible if you ask me. They also want working life to be fairer and Unions stronger and growth to be built on a Greener Planet. Basically what Corbyn wanted for the most part and really the only way to save the world as we know it. Growth just for the sake of growth and particularly when much is based on throwaway items is the opposite of what I want in any country I live in. I've never been convinced growth actually benefits your average citizen anyway. Greer appears to be a socialist from what I can see and he certainly matches my view of the world more than any SNP politician does and I would wager most Independent favouring Scots are a good deal to the left of the SNP.

[Ozyhibby]

A free thinker, can't be having that. The SNP have an impressive hold over their MPs and especially the MSPs. You will never survive in the modern SNP unless you tow the line from Nicola Sturgeon and her CEO husband (which I think is still an odd set up,. husband and wife running the most powerful party in Scotland)

I’m sure Joanna Cherry is heartened by all the concern for her career.
She has absolutely zero chance of leading the SNP. None. Zilch. Nada. It is never happening.
I’m she knows this and seems to be comfortable with it. She would probably like a return to the front bench but for that to happen she will need to spend some time building bridges with her colleagues.


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[James310]

They oppose growth that will kill the planet. Fairly sensible if you ask me. They also want working life to be fairer and Unions stronger and growth to be built on a Greener Planet. Basically what Corbyn wanted for the most part and really the only way to save the world as we know it. Growth just for the sake of growth and particularly when much is based on throwaway items is the opposite of what I want in any country I live in. I've never been convinced growth actually benefits your average citizen anyway. Greer appears to be a socialist from what I can see and he certainly matches my view of the world more than any SNP politician does and I would wager most Independent favouring Scots are a good deal to the left of the SNP.

Do you share the view that we should arrest the CEO of Shell and BP as Ross wants? Close them down and make thousands unemployed and lose billions in tax.

[He's here!]

What has Ian Blackford done about it though? So far it seems his punishment is a 2 day suspension from the party. Is that sufficient?

Nicola Sturgeon was going on about a zero tolerance approach to sexual misconduct.

If a Tory had been found guilty of sexual misconduct with a teenage member of their staff would you be calling for him/her to resign?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-accused-shamefully-weak-punishment-27240915

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61811605

The apology from Sturgeon is curious. Sorry that the incident happened but not a direct apology to the accuser. And the pledge to 'reflect' on their feelings...not exactly hard-hitting. Makes you wonder whether they're sceptical about the allegations despite the findings.

[James310]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61811605

The apology from Sturgeon is curious. Sorry that the incident happened but not a direct apology to the accuser. And the pledge to 'reflect' on their feelings...not exactly hard-hitting. Makes you wonder whether they're sceptical about the allegations despite the findings.

Is this the zero tolerance approach to sexual misconduct she has stated, except it seems flexible when it's someone in her inner circle. But she did say his apology was genuine so that makes it alright does it.

[Since90+2]

Is this the zero tolerance approach to sexual misconduct she has stated, except it seems flexible when it's someone in her inner circle. But she did say his apology was genuine so that makes it alright does it.

Probably more a discussion for the SNP thread rather than this one. Doesn't matter a jot in relation to the decision as to whether Scotland should be an independent nation or not.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-61811605

The apology from Sturgeon is curious. Sorry that the incident happened but not a direct apology to the accuser. And the pledge to 'reflect' on their feelings...not exactly hard-hitting. Makes you wonder whether they're sceptical about the allegations despite the findings.

The findings seem to be spot on as you say. The SNP have accepted them 100% and have implemented the recommendations 100%.
This was all done by an independent advisors not connected with the party at all.
What punishment do you think there should be for an employee who makes a pass at another employee in a pub outside of work hours?


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[JimBHibees]

Let's inject some sense into the debate via GB News. :greengrin


https://youtu.be/p84qckYYTcI

:faf::faf:

Wow get an illiterate Jock on to have a go.

[degenerated]

:faf::faf:

Wow get an illiterate Jock on to have a go.That's the halfwit that argues for the right to be able to hit children, probably best ignored.

[Berwickhibby]

:faf::faf:

Wow get an illiterate Jock on to have a go.

I would wager she can read and write

[Ozyhibby]

http://scottishelections.ac.uk/2022/06/15/is-there-a-mandate-for-indyref2-evidence-from-the-scottish-election-study/

Excellent article on the mandate for a second Indy ref. Highlights the danger for those who wish to deny democracy as a large majority of the don’t knows believe the SG has a mandate.


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[Jones28]

:faf::faf:

Wow get an illiterate Jock on to have a go.

Greetin' because her born and raised English children who have never lived in Scotland can't go to a Scottish Uni for free, after saying she's spent longer living in England than she has Scotland?

As good an example of an Anglofied Scot as ever seen.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1537330386254061570?s=21&t=IP2bwHeNH11SHQwFWuVj2A

Ruth Davidson on the mandate for a new indyref.


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[Since90+2]

https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1537330386254061570?s=21&t=IP2bwHeNH11SHQwFWuVj2A

Ruth Davidson on the mandate for a new indyref.


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I suppose it was 15 years ago, she could argue that's been long enough for her to change her mind.....a bit like the country voting on independence.

[Ozyhibby]

I suppose it was 15 years ago, she could argue that's been long enough for her to change her mind.....a bit like the country voting on independence.

It’s clear they’ve have all changed their mind on democracy these days.


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[WeeRussell]

Douglas Ross is such a little weasel.

I know we already knew that.

[ronaldo7]

The FM wiped the floor once again with Douglas Ross, but especially Anas Sarwar.

What a state the opposition parties have got themselves into, if the leaders are so inept, they don't know who sets the budget for audit Scotland.

Basics.

[WhileTheChief..]

What punishment do you think there should be for an employee who makes a pass at another employee in a pub outside of work hours?


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That used to be the norm and how many people met their future spouses.

Personally I don’t think there should be any consequences and the complainant should grow a set.

However, it’s changed days these days and you can barely ‘chat someone up’ without fear of being reported to someone for something.

[Ozyhibby]

The FM wiped the floor once again with Douglas Ross, but especially Anas Sarwar.

What a state the opposition parties have got themselves into, if the leaders are so inept, they don't know who sets the budget for audit Scotland.

Basics.

While it’s difficult to not conclude that they are both useless, you do have to have some sympathy for them in having to come out and argue against democracy all the time. That can’t be easy week after week.


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[superfurryhibby]

:faf::faf:

Wow get an illiterate Jock on to have a go.

She has lived more of her life in London than she has in Scotland, but........stopped watching it there.

I'm growing to dislike the SNP more and more for their failure to deliver (social housing, land reform, cheaper energy, as well as Independence)) for people in Scotland. However, I have even less doubt about the wisdom of independence than ever before. Westminster's neo-liberal agenda couldn't be more blatant and still folk can't see what is happening.

[WhileTheChief..]

What does neo-liberal mean?

Seen it mentioned a few times in the last few pages but I haven’t got a clue.

I’m guessing it’s not nice and kinda applies to folk with views similar to me?!

[Since90+2]

She has lived more of her life in London than she has in Scotland, but........stopped watching it there.

I'm growing to dislike the SNP more and more for their failure to deliver (social housing, land reform, cheaper energy, as well as Independence)) for people in Scotland. However, I have even less doubt about the wisdom of independence than ever before. Westminster's neo-liberal agenda couldn't be more blatant and still folk can't see what is happening.

That's pretty much where I am. I don't get the SNP love in at all but independence seems like a slightly better option than staying in the Union.

I would say though that it is a gamble and other people would prefer the status quo. Some independence supporters should be mindful that everyone is entitled to an opinion and it doesn't make someone the devil if they support the union.

[Just Alf]

That's pretty much where I am. I don't get the SNP love in at all but independence seems like a slightly better option than staying in the Union.I think there's many like that, I know it's not scientific at all but anytime its been discussed with friends and family I'm sure more than half that want to have independence won't vote SNP.

Personally I've said I'd vote for them in the honeymoon election for continuity but I'm a bit 50/50 on that these days.

[superfurryhibby]

What does neo-liberal mean?

Seen it mentioned a few times in the last few pages but I haven’t got a clue.

I’m guessing it’s not nice and kinda applies to folk with views similar to me?!

Unless you are an extremely wealthy industrialist, I very much doubt it. Neo-liberalism has dominated the political agenda of western "democracies" since the time of Thatcher and Reagan. My brief definition would include words like greed motivated and already ridiculously rich , pulling the wool over the eyes of suckers who vote for their political puppets via manipulation from mainstream media outlets. Ring any bells?

[ronaldo7]

Ferries ferries they shout.

Ok. Ferry link from Rosyth to zeebrugge to be reinstated. 😂

[Hibernia&Alba]

That's the halfwit that argues for the right to be able to hit children, probably best ignored.

I don't even know who she is, but that's the tone of the debate on GBeebies. You don't even want to know what they're saying about the Rwandan deportation plan.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't even know who she is, but that's the tone of the debate on GBeebies. You don't even want to know what they're saying about the Rwandan deportation plan.

I never go on it and never click a link to it. I think my life will be better for it.


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[Stairway 2 7]

Ferries ferries they shout.

Ok. Ferry link from Rosyth to zeebrugge to be reinstated. 😂

Surprised. I thought ryanair et al had killed this as cheaper and half a day travelling either way saved. I do fancy taking the motor and travelling round a few countries, so will check the price

[Ozyhibby]

Surprised. I thought ryanair et al had killed this as cheaper and half a day travelling either way saved. I do fancy taking the motor and travelling round a few countries, so will check the price

Might be that freight from there is now a better option than sitting in a q in Dover for 12 hours?


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[ronaldo7]

Surprised. I thought ryanair et al had killed this as cheaper and half a day travelling either way saved. I do fancy taking the motor and travelling round a few countries, so will check the price

Motorbikes, motor homes, caravans, would all benefit. Looks like it's going to be freight to start with, but they are looking for passengers later.

More to come Im sure.

[WhileTheChief..]

Unless you are an extremely wealthy industrialist, I very much doubt it. Neo-liberalism has dominated the political agenda of western "democracies" since the time of Thatcher and Reagan. A brief definition would include words like greed motivated and already ridiculously rich , pulling the wool over the eyes of suckers who vote for their political puppets via mainstream media outlets. Ring any bells?

I Googled it. They have a slightly different take on it.....

adjective: neo-liberal



favouring policies that promote free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending.







noun: neo-liberal



an advocate or supporter of free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending.







I think it does apply to me, doesn't sound too bad at all.

[Stairway 2 7]

Motorbikes, motor homes, caravans, would all benefit. Looks like it's going to be freight to start with, but they are looking for passengers later.

More to come Im sure.

That's a pretty small market I'd think. 20 hours is a long journey. Freight seems a good idea especially with independence in mind

[James310]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2022/06/why-nicola-sturgeon-gambling-on-scottish-independence-referendum

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2022/06/why-nicola-sturgeon-gambling-on-scottish-independence-referendum

Chris Deerin. [emoji849][emoji23] I often wonder if him and Alex Massie look back on their whole careers and think maybe they could have done a little bit more than write about one woman the whole time. Still, it’s a living I suppose.


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[lapsedhibee]

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2022/06/why-nicola-sturgeon-gambling-on-scottish-independence-referendum

"Joining the EU is not the same thing as getting a cub scout badge sewn on your jumper because you’ve completed a virtuous task."

Well that's me lost to the Yes cause. Up till now I'd been convinced that the EU and the cubs were pretty much identical. :bitchy:

[Ozyhibby]

"Joining the EU is not the same thing as getting a cub scout badge sewn on your jumper because you’ve completed a virtuous task."

Well that's me lost to the Yes cause. Up till now I'd been convinced that the EU and the cubs were pretty much identical. :bitchy:

A better future for Scotland is just too hard so we shouldn’t even bother trying seems to be the new mantra.
I guess when you can’t deny that things are going really terribly, that’s all you have left.


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[James310]

Chris Deerin. [emoji849][emoji23] I often wonder if him and Alex Massie look back on their whole careers and think maybe they could have done a little bit more than write about one woman the whole time. Still, it’s a living I suppose.


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Scottish politics journalist writes about Scottish politics shock.

Is there any writer out there that you actually like or they all baddies because they write stuff you don't like?

[Ozyhibby]

Scottish politics journalist writes about Scottish politics shock.

Is there any writer out there that you actually like or they all baddies because they write stuff you don't like?

I actually think Massie is a decent writer. He admits himself though that writing about Sturgeon is just too lucrative to turn down. There is strong demand in the Spectator and Times for anti-sturgeon material. Think only Meghan Markle pays more.


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[Kato]

Neo-Liberalism could be summed up with Thatcher's phrase "There is no such thing as society." - i.e. the free market is everything. There fore constant austerity, no public libraries, no public health service, no subsidies for public transport, the very idea of community gone, no rights for workers, no health and safety rules, disabled and old people are worthless and anything that doesn't bring profit to the already rich deemed useless. Syphon money upwards and "ordinary" humans just a means to increase profit and if they don't do so they are the enemy.

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[Hibernia&Alba]

Neo-Liberalism could be summed up with Thatcher's phrase "There is no such thing as society." - i.e. the free market is everything. There fore constant austerity, no public libraries, no public health service, no subsidies for public transport, the very idea of community gone, no rights for workers, no health and safety rules, disabled and old people are worthless and anything that doesn't bring profit to the already rich deemed useless. Syphon money upwards and "ordinary" humans just a means to increase profit and if they don't do so they are the enemy.

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There is an excellent book by David Harvey called 'A Brief History of Neoliberalism', which gives a concise account of what's been happening since the 1970s. Highly recommended to those wanting to learn more about the world we live in today.

[James310]

This is why the calls of Unionist are scared and "smell the fear" etc are wide of the mark.

https://jonathonshafi.substack.com/p/something-doesnt-add-up

"In short, this scene setter didn’t set the scene. It failed to present the big picture. It didn’t even give an overview of the context, global or local, in which the independence debate is being had. Given how many years the SNP have had to prepare for the launch of what is supposed to be the last chance to secure independence, it was alarming to see the sum of their thinking for this momentous occasion. Working up some graphs and rehashing the same arguments is quite honestly a few weeks worth of work at most."

It just wasn't a very good attempt by the SNP to set things off. If the other papers are more of the same then I think quite a few Indy supporters will be disappointed.

Couple of neoliberalism references in there as well for those interested.

[degenerated]

Seems to cover the unionist media argument quite comprehensively

https://twitter.com/shiny02/status/1537351774939402240?t=Yt-AriM1VRFHXBqAHuEiTQ&s=19

[ronaldo7]

This is not the BNP. It's not even UKIP. This is the British Labour party.

This is a once in a lifetime vote for Wakefield. That'll be that then. :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/simonlightwood/status/1537378311906594816

[James310]

Seems to cover the unionist media argument quite comprehensively

https://twitter.com/shiny02/status/1537351774939402240?t=Yt-AriM1VRFHXBqAHuEiTQ&s=19

He is quite funny and not afraid to take the p**s out of both sides. We need more of this in Scotland, politicians should be ridiculed if they say and do ridiculous things. There is a lack of satire in Scottish politics.

https://twitter.com/shiny02/status/1519634762218024962?t=tumGV03IejcMX_VtxlOwnw&s=19

[Ozyhibby]

This is not the BNP. It's not even UKIP. This is the British Labour party.

This is a once in a lifetime vote for Wakefield. That'll be that then. :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/simonlightwood/status/1537378311906594816

Once in a lifetime? [emoji102]


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[Berwickhibby]

This is not the BNP. It's not even UKIP. This is the British Labour party.

This is a once in a lifetime vote for Wakefield. That'll be that then. :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/simonlightwood/status/1537378311906594816

Just watched the video … never mentions once in a life time time … wants rid off Bozo and wants Wakefield to send a message…. Don’t understand your issue.

[Moulin Yarns]

Once in a lifetime? [emoji102]


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Well, I suppose if you think that it's the first time since 1932 that Labour has a chance to take Wakefield back from the Conservatives, then aye once in a lifetime 😉

[James310]

Just watched the video … never mentions once in a life time time … wants rid off Bozo and wants Wakefield to send a message…. Don’t understand your issue.

Too many Union Jack's?

But on the Scottish Indy marches (are they still a thing these days) there is a sea of flags.

But let's not start a flag debate.

[Berwickhibby]

Too many Union Jack's?

But on the Scottish Indy marches (are they still a thing these days) there is a sea of flags.

But let's not start a flag debate.

Ah ok so it’s now offensive to fly your own Nations flag in your own country….

[Moulin Yarns]

Ah ok so it’s now offensive to fly your own Nations flag in your own country….

I thought the union flag had been replaced by the St George's Cross as the flag of choice in England, but it appears that better together is still a thing in west Yorkshire. 🤔

[Stairway 2 7]

My nationalism is OK, yours isn't. Flag ****gers from all countries are nutters

[James310]

My nationalism is OK, yours isn't. Flag ****gers from all countries are nutters

You can't eat a flag was the quote from John Hume.

Your father once said to you, you can’t eat a flag, what did he mean by that?

John Hume: You see, what he meant by that was it was on the streets of the time elections were taking place as they always did with both sides waving flags. And young people getting all excited. And my father was standing watching this with me and he tapped me on the shoulder and he says “Don’t you get involved in that stuff, son”. I say “Why not, dad?”. And he says “You can’t eat a flag”. In other words what he was saying is real politics is about the living standards, about social and economic development. It’s not about waving flags at one another.

[Ozyhibby]

You can't eat a flag was the quote from John Hume.

Your father once said to you, you can’t eat a flag, what did he mean by that?

John Hume: You see, what he meant by that was it was on the streets of the time elections were taking place as they always did with both sides waving flags. And young people getting all excited. And my father was standing watching this with me and he tapped me on the shoulder and he says “Don’t you get involved in that stuff, son”. I say “Why not, dad?”. And he says “You can’t eat a flag”. In other words what he was saying is real politics is about the living standards, about social and economic development. It’s not about waving flags at one another.

He wasn’t wrong. And our living standards are falling behind our independent neighbours. And the situation is getting worse.


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[ronaldo7]

Just watched the video … never mentions once in a life time time … wants rid off Bozo and wants Wakefield to send a message…. Don’t understand your issue.

Take a look at his tweet. SECOND LINE DOWN. :wink:

I remember the last time Labour were lead by a Keir, they used to fly a red flag, now it's red white and blue.

Nothing wrong with flying flags, we all do it. The movement away from the red flag to the Union flag is a sign the new Keir is a SIR. The move to british nationalism is nearly complete.

[Berwickhibby]

Take a look at his tweet. SECOND LINE DOWN. :wink:

I remember the last time Labour were lead by a Keir, they used to fly a red flag, now it's red white and blue.

Nothing wrong with flying flags, we all do it. The movement away from the red flag to the Union flag is a sign the new Keir is a SIR. The move to british nationalism is nearly complete.

You must really auld if you remember Kier Hardie…he died in 1915. Kier Starmer is not a hereditary peer, he got it as part of his employment as head of CPS as does everyone who holds that position. I think it’s refreshing that Labour are using the Union Flag as you rightly pointed out it has been hijacked by the right for far to long.

[ronaldo7]

You must really auld if you remember Kier Hardie…he died in 1915. Kier Starmer is not a hereditary peer, he got it as part of his employment as head of CPS as does everyone who holds that position. I think it’s refreshing that Labour are using the Union Flag as you rightly pointed out it has been hijacked by the right for far to long.


I'd say it's heading back to the right.

The guy standing is a place man. The local party selection committee resigned en masse, when he was selected.

Labour democracy in action. Far right style. :greengrin

Did you read the second line down btw?

[Moulin Yarns]

https://twitter.com/Iblogtoglasgow/status/1537515054207205380?t=HCxIfbF4kHHc8EEL4yzyWw&s=19


Johnson says people everywhere have a right to decide their own future.

#nowISthetime

[degenerated]

Just watched the video … never mentions once in a life time time … wants rid off Bozo and wants Wakefield to send a message…. Don’t understand your issue.You'll find the "once in a lifetime" quote in the second sentence of the labour candidates tweet, that you linked [emoji6]

[Berwickhibby]

You'll find the "once in a lifetime" quote in the second sentence of the labour candidates tweet, that you linked [emoji6]

I never linked it…and you are correct the quote is there…I just watched the video if honest … stupid comment which regardless will bit him in the arse

[Hibernian Verse]

https://twitter.com/Iblogtoglasgow/status/1537515054207205380?t=HCxIfbF4kHHc8EEL4yzyWw&s=19


Johnson says people everywhere have a right to decide their own future.

#nowISthetime

Hahahaha you can see him click just before he says it. Utter moron reciting a speech written by either another moron or undercover genius.

[wookie70]

After watching Question time I want away from England as soon as possible. It is incredible how an invisible border can have peoples so different living on either side. The Teeside audience is possible the thickest I have ever seen on an episode of QT with a large chunk of racism thrown in. Their Tory MP was a typical deflecting and self loving a hole. It is amazing that folk blame Labour for the last 12 years of utter misery and seem to think it is absolutely fine for Johnson to be a liar and corrupt as we knew he was when we voted for him. My brother is in the Wakefield constituency and there are so many Little Englander it is unreal.

[Moulin Yarns]

Hahahaha you can see him click just before he says it. Utter moron reciting a speech written by either another moron or undercover genius.

I had to watch again, and I'm going for undercover genius :greengrin

[Stairway 2 7]

Decent of HSBC to be putting up pro independence billboards 👏

25963

[Stairway 2 7]

Looking forward to Douglas Ross spending the next year telling us we're better off led by someone he thinks should resign

[James310]

Decent of HSBC to be putting up pro independence billboards 👏

25963

Not sure a Union where the majority or Scots voted to stay in and continue to support according to the polls is the same as domestic abuse which is a very serious thing. Not a great analogy.

I am not sure how Scotland is the victim when we benefit to the tune of billions of pounds.

Yesterday it was a handout or begging for money, now we are being short-changed, it's confusing keeping up with the different angles on the same thing.

[Ozyhibby]

Not sure a Union where the majority or Scots voted to stay in and continue to support according to the polls is the same as domestic abuse which is a very serious thing. Not a great analogy.

I am not sure how Scotland is the victim when we benefit to the tune of billions of pounds.

Yesterday it was a handout or begging for money, now we are being short-changed, it's confusing keeping up with the different angles on the same thing.

So it’s ok for a husband to abuse his wife if it’s him that earns the money?


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[James310]

So it’s ok for a husband to abuse his wife if it’s him that earns the money?


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Eh? Where have I said abuse is ok? How is Scotland the same as a domestic abuse partner? Do tell us.

I am saying domestic abuse is a very serious offence and it should not be used to describe the current constitutional debate especially when the majority of Scots voted to stay in the relationship and according to the polls still do.

[Ozyhibby]

Eh? Where have I said abuse is ok? How is Scotland the same as a domestic abuse partner? Do tell us.

I am saying domestic abuse is a very serious offence and it should not be used to describe the current constitutional debate especially when the majority of Scots voted to stay in the relationship and according to the polls still do.

So if someone who is abused doesn’t leave their partner then it’s no longer abuse?


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[Hibrandenburg]

I'd say it's heading back to the right.

The guy standing is a place man. The local party selection committee resigned en masse, when he was selected.

Labour democracy in action. Far right style. :greengrin

Did you read the second line down btw?

Hmm, socialists with nationalist emblems.

[Berwickhibby]

So it’s ok for a husband to abuse his wife if it’s him that earns the money?


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As someone who has had to deal with more domestic violence and abuse than I care to recall …I think this analogy is pretty crass

[James310]

So if someone who is abused doesn’t leave their partner then it’s no longer abuse?


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Who is being abused? Explain?

[Ozyhibby]

Everyone feigning mock offence this morning.[emoji23]


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[James310]

As someone who has had to deal with more domestic violence and abuse than I care to recall …I think this analogy is pretty crass

Having done a little work and fundraising with domestic abuse charities as well I find it inappropriate.

[Berwickhibby]

Everyone feigning mock offence this morning.[emoji23]


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Not feigning mock anything…I have stated many times I abhor violence especially domestic violence, I have seen the damage to victims first hand and sights you could not imagine, injuries one human can inflict on another on a person they allegedly love. So if I think that using this analogy is not right I think I have good reason

[Stairway 2 7]

Not sure a Union where the majority or Scots voted to stay in and continue to support according to the polls is the same as domestic abuse which is a very serious thing. Not a great analogy.

I am not sure how Scotland is the victim when we benefit to the tune of billions of pounds.

Yesterday it was a handout or begging for money, now we are being short-changed, it's confusing keeping up with the different angles on the same thing.

Due to benefits freezes and cuts 400,000 more people will be in poverty thanks to the tories in Westminster. We aren't joking we are ****ing furious. I don't find kids starving funny either. We are controlled in a million ways by down south. Its not about gdp for the top 10% it's how you treat the bottom that counts. Don't give me mock concern, if you had a heart you'd want us as far away from that vile government as possible

[James310]

Due to benefits freezes and cuts 400,000 more people will be in poverty thanks to the tories in Westminster. We aren't joking we are ****ing furious. I don't find kids starving funny either. We are controlled in a million ways by down south. Its not about gdp for the top 10% it's how you treat the bottom that counts. Don't give me mock concern, if you had a heart you'd want us as far away from that vile government as possible

You can make your points in many ways, I just don't believe the domestic abuse analogy is the best way especially when the majority of Scots voted to stay in the relationship and if there was a vote tomorrow the polls suggest they would continue to do so.

[Stairway 2 7]

You can make your points in many ways, I just don't believe the domestic abuse analogy is the best way especially when the majority of Scots voted to stay in the relationship and if there was a vote tomorrow the polls suggest they would continue to do so.

Is the average person that replies to polls the average person. It used to be they were older and more right wing

[Ozyhibby]

You can make your points in many ways, I just don't believe the domestic abuse analogy is the best way especially when the majority of Scots voted to stay in the relationship and if there was a vote tomorrow the polls suggest they would continue to do so.

Your complaining about one analogy while making another that doesn’t ring true in that context.


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[James310]

Is the average person that replies to polls the average person. It used to be they were older and more right wing

They would not be representative samples then, which is the whole point of polls.

[Stairway 2 7]

They would not be representative samples then, which is the whole point of polls.

But most are commissioned by right wing think tanks and the polls are owned by right wing persons mostly in the uk. How you ask and who you ask. They say they average it out but there is just no way they are getting a certain section of society to answer.

It will undoubtedly be close no probably ahead, but the tories are surely helping week by disgusting week. Who knows how it will go. Bookies have it tied

[James310]

But most are commissioned by right wing think tanks and the polls are owned by right wing persons mostly in the uk. How you ask and who you ask. They say they average it out but there is just no way they are getting a certain section of society to answer.

It will undoubtedly be close no probably ahead, but the tories are surely helping week by disgusting week. Who knows how it will go. Bookies have it tied

Is that except the ones where Yes was leading about 20 times in a row?

[superfurryhibby]

You must really auld if you remember Kier Hardie…he died in 1915. Kier Starmer is not a hereditary peer, he got it as part of his employment as head of CPS as does everyone who holds that position. I think it’s refreshing that Labour are using the Union Flag as you rightly pointed out it has been hijacked by the right for far to long.

Keir Starmer got his knighthood because he is an arse licking establishment stooge and there is great irony in mentioning the union flag being hijacked by the right for too long and the Labour Party in the same sentence.

[Stairway 2 7]

Is that except the ones where Yes was leading about 20 times in a row?

I admit public is probably even erring on no just now but it's obviously right down the middle pretty much.

[Jack]

You can make your points in many ways, I just don't believe the domestic abuse analogy is the best way especially when the majority of Scots voted to stay in the relationship and if there was a vote tomorrow the polls suggest they would continue to do so.

Like it or not that's exactly how many people see the relationship between Westminster and Scotland. And judging by your posts its clearly hit a nerve.

[PeeJay]

But most are commissioned by right wing think tanks and the polls are owned by right wing persons mostly in the uk. How you ask and who you ask. They say they average it out but there is just no way they are getting a certain section of society to answer.



How did you verify that most polls are commissioned by right-wing think tanks and owned by right wingers? "Most" as in what "51% - 60%, 80%" - can you back this up? Just doesn't sound right to me ... from afar I must admit? :confused:

[The Modfather]

Is that except the ones where Yes was leading about 20 times in a row?

James, as someone not very active on this thread, so hopefully not someone looking to petty point score with you or ask loaded questions. Genuinely interested to hear what direction you, speaking simply as one person, would like the union to go in, in the short-mid term.

I’m on the yes side, as much emotionally as anything else, but probably apathetic to all political parties and politicians than anything else. Not looking for any particular in-depth analysis, mainly because short of headline tickets like getting rid of nuclear weapons, investing in renewables, re-joining the EU etc I’m not placed to offer much meat on the bones myself.

The union isn’t all bad, would genuinely be interested to hear ideas as to how it could be improved.

[Berwickhibby]

Keir Starmer got his knighthood because he is an arse licking establishment stooge and there is great irony in mentioning the union flag being hijacked by the right for too long and the Labour Party in the same sentence.

Wrong … he was head of CPS a position like a few others where a knighthood comes with the position. No irony it’s my opinion as a Labour voting citizen.

[Stairway 2 7]

How did you verify that most polls are commissioned by right-wing think tanks and owned by right wingers? "Most" as in what "51% - 60%, 80%" - can you back this up? Just doesn't sound right to me ... from afar I must admit? :confused:

It's a joke on the scandal this month with you gov being owned by a tory donor and Zahawi phoning him to keep the polling Conservative, he said the call was only a joke. Hibsbollah is your man on the subject though, alot over my head

[Stairway 2 7]

Keir Starmer got his knighthood because he is an arse licking establishment stooge and there is great irony in mentioning the union flag being hijacked by the right for too long and the Labour Party in the same sentence.

Indeed. I'm unsure how saying Starmer gets it just for climbing up the police ladder isnt establishment privilege. Why just some jobs. Did Cressida Dick get it the same way even though she was hopeless. Sort of tarnishes knighthood for people who earn them no

[James310]

James, as someone not very active on this thread, so hopefully not someone looking to petty point score with you or ask loaded questions. Genuinely interested to hear what direction you, speaking simply as one person, would like the union to go in, in the short-mid term.

I’m on the yes side, as much emotionally as anything else, but probably apathetic to all political parties and politicians than anything else. Not looking for any particular in-depth analysis, mainly because short of headline tickets like getting rid of nuclear weapons, investing in renewables, re-joining the EU etc I’m not placed to offer much meat on the bones myself.

The union isn’t all bad, would genuinely be interested to hear ideas as to how it could be improved.

In short term I think it would be best if the Tory's lost the next General Election, they have been in power too long and Brexit has been handled really badly. They need a period in opposition to sort themselves out.

I don't think the UK is perfect, no country is but I genuinely don't believe what the SNP is offering (well we don't know what it is yet do we) gives me any hope it would make us all better off and happier. I haven't seen on credible piece of analysis that shows how extracting yourself from a modern interconnected economic partnership benefits us, if anything Brexit shows how these things can end up.

I am out for the rest of the day now!

[Berwickhibby]

Indeed. I'm unsure how saying Starmer gets it just for climbing up the police ladder isnt establishment privilege. Why just some jobs. Did Cressida Dick get it the same way even though she was hopeless. Sort of tarnishes knighthood for people who earn them no

Every Head of CPS,Metropolitan Police, Army, Navy, Airforce get a peerage with their post. Not saying I agree, just stating a fact.

[The Modfather]

In short term I think it would be best if the Tory's lost the next General Election, they have been in power too long and Brexit has been handled really badly. They need a period in opposition to sort themselves out.

I don't think the UK is perfect, no country is but I genuinely don't believe what the SNP is offering (well we don't know what it is yet do we) gives me any hope it would make us all better off and happier. I haven't seen on credible piece of analysis that shows how extracting yourself from a modern interconnected economic partnership benefits us, if anything Brexit shows how these things can end up.

I am out for the rest of the day now!

I agree on parties in power, and think Scotland suffers like Westminster for not having a credible alternative. To relate it back to football, I don’t think either Man City or Liverpool would have reached the levels they have over the last few years without the other. A strong alternative is needed for any party in power, particular when in power for a long time.

I genuinely wasn’t trying to set you up or catch you out, so please don’t take it as such. However your reply contained more about what the SNP/independence isn’t, valid points in their own right, in a post asking about how you would like the union to look. Would be good to hear you talk up the union more and the potential of the union as someone from the other side IMO.

[degenerated]

In short term I think it would be best if the Tory's lost the next General Election, they have been in power too long and Brexit has been handled really badly. They need a period in opposition to sort themselves out.

I don't think the UK is perfect, no country is but I genuinely don't believe what the SNP is offering (well we don't know what it is yet do we) gives me any hope it would make us all better off and happier. I haven't seen on credible piece of analysis that shows how extracting yourself from a modern interconnected economic partnership benefits us, if anything Brexit shows how these things can end up.

I am out for the rest of the day now!You haven't really made much of a case for the union there, other than a bit of wishful thinking that England decides to vote a different way.

[lapsedhibee]

Every Head of CPS,Metropolitan Police, Army, Navy, Airforce get a peerage with their post. Not saying I agree, just stating a fact.
Knight/damehood, not peerage.

[Callum_62]

In short term I think it would be best if the Tory's lost the next General Election, they have been in power too long and Brexit has been handled really badly. They need a period in opposition to sort themselves out.

I don't think the UK is perfect, no country is but I genuinely don't believe what the SNP is offering (well we don't know what it is yet do we) gives me any hope it would make us all better off and happier. I haven't seen on credible piece of analysis that shows how extracting yourself from a modern interconnected economic partnership benefits us, if anything Brexit shows how these things can end up.

I am out for the rest of the day now!Economic partnerships are fine.... Poltical unions with a country 10 x your size (and all voters treated as 1 group) never will make any sense for me

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