Scottish Independence

[JeMeSouviens]

Monster raving loony party?


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It's McWolfie! :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Monster raving loony party?


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I thought he was making a decent point about Robertson being parachuted into the seat.... until I did a piece of basic research and found that AR was brought up in Edinburgh and went to Broughton. :rolleyes: Middle-class ****** indeed.

I've watched a few of his videos, and he comes across as someone who is quite well-balanced; he has a chip on each shoulder. :greengrin His "critique" of the Festival had me reaching for the pitchfork.

[The Modfather]

Lost me at the middle class rant, given he cannae pronounce Dalry like most non-middle class edinburgh people, I'm guessing that's what he is. What's Disneyfication when it's at home?? lol. Seems to have a lot of support in the comments.

Out of interest, how should Dalry be pronounced/what’s wrong with how he said it? I genuinely can’t think of different ways it can be pronounced.

[Santa Cruz]

Out of interest, how should Dalry be pronounced/what’s wrong with how he said it? I genuinely can’t think of different ways it can be pronounced.

I and everyone I know would pronounce it Dul-ry (not in a slagging it off way). He accentuated the Dal in ry. Tbh I don't think I've ever had a discussion about Dalry with anyone with a middle class air about them, so maybe a good few do pronounce it that way.

[The Modfather]

I and everyone I know would pronounce it Dul-ry (not in a slagging it off way). He accentuated the Dal in ry. Tbh I don't think I've ever had a discussion about Dalry with anyone with a middle class air about them, so maybe a good few do pronounce it that way.

I’ve only ever heard it pronounced Dal-ry, but can now see how others might call it Dul-ry.

I’m of Lochend stock, and live in Balerno. Not sure if that means I’m pronouncing it right or wrong :greengrin

[Santa Cruz]

I’ve only ever heard it pronounced Dal-ry, but can now see how others might call it Dul-ry.

I’m of Lochend stock, and live in Balerno. Not sure if that means I’m pronouncing it right or wrong :greengrin

:greengrin

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/163601749_1503269856544972_8034637228508622370_n.p ng?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=buNDMnKbMFUAX_tOj8O&_nc_oc=AQnT1fP63-DJehQbMemLT7CR1tV34cz8pLSvJc2Aq97B6e--gOb02slIdTlKU1K-XdU&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=9e72b6602cbc2108003c420a32f8a922&oe=6080AB2C


how good would this be, no state TV....balanced reporting, jeezo what a progressive society we would have

[Ozyhibby]

https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/03/has-yes-stayed-in-lead-all-along.html?m=1


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[Bristolhibby]

Today @lornagreens and I replied to a constituent of mine called James, who is really keen to have a local Green candidate in May. Thanks for your enthusiasm James, don't forget to Vote Like Your Future Depends On It!! https://t.co/iipbg5QbgD



🤣🤣🤣🤣

SNP 1
Green 2

James, you know it makes sense.

J

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s640x640/164487211_3642660745832685_9035418973600822257_o.j pg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=RfekoILpp9wAX8Bj7gW&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&tp=7&oh=93b51d269d7242fbcee90a6149c440e0&oe=607F5715



yaaay vote for a Conservative & Labour unionist coalition, two cheeks

[allmodcons]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s640x640/164487211_3642660745832685_9035418973600822257_o.j pg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=RfekoILpp9wAX8Bj7gW&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&tp=7&oh=93b51d269d7242fbcee90a6149c440e0&oe=607F5715



yaaay vote for a Conservative & Labour unionist coalition, two cheeks

I wonder why they decided to go with red, white and blue?

Maybe they love All Mod Cons too.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I wonder why they decided to go with red, white and blue?

Maybe they love All Mod Cons too.


in preparation of their expected official amalgamation :) i' first suggested this three years ago, they have the same manifesto...erm um stop independence

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/164822413_3783290575100146_8414120675808382233_o.j pg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=jqSygAmdJs4AX8RjpdS&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=2d09dfef3b877b1490abbbc4e62907a8&oe=607FC3A7

[Alex Trager]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/163601749_1503269856544972_8034637228508622370_n.p ng?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=buNDMnKbMFUAX_tOj8O&_nc_oc=AQnT1fP63-DJehQbMemLT7CR1tV34cz8pLSvJc2Aq97B6e--gOb02slIdTlKU1K-XdU&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=9e72b6602cbc2108003c420a32f8a922&oe=6080AB2C


how good would this be, no state TV....balanced reporting, jeezo what a progressive society we would have

Ironically having no state media would lead to more of the powerful owning the media and pushing their agenda.

The BBC is a good thing, not in it’s current guise mind you

[Alex Trager]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/164822413_3783290575100146_8414120675808382233_o.j pg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=jqSygAmdJs4AX8RjpdS&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=2d09dfef3b877b1490abbbc4e62907a8&oe=607FC3A7

Anyone know the validity of this?

And better yet the constituency breakdowns

[cabbageandribs1875]

Anyone know the validity of this?

And better yet the constituency breakdowns



looks fairly accurate from graphs i've saw over the last few months, though i thought Edinburgh would be SNP 1 & 2, Glasgow/west definitely SNP 1 & Greens there's literally dozens of graphs out there in facebook land with far more detailed lists

[Ozyhibby]

Anyone know the validity of this?

And better yet the constituency breakdowns

It’s close to my understanding of the situation but couldn’t say for sure. If polls stay roughly as they are now then I’d say that it probably right.


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[Alex Trager]

Probably best to revisit closer to the time

[Ozyhibby]

looks fairly accurate from graphs i've saw over the last few months, though i thought Edinburgh would be SNP 1 & 2, Glasgow/west definitely SNP 1 & Greens there's literally dozens of graphs out there in facebook land with far more detailed lists

Lothian list seats last time.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210323/c9ca73474ef332f528d4bb1d8e21f154.jpg

Polls just now have SNP predicted to do at least as well as last time in the constituency vote so it will be difficult for them to get list mp’s.
It was the same in 2011. Lothian is very much an area where it’s best to vote SNP 1 Green 2 if Indy is a priority or even if you just want to keep Tories out.


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[heretoday]

What do you do if she goes, or decides one day she's had enough? Who steps in for her with that level of leadership skills? I've yet to see anyone come remotely close in her Cabinet.

Too right. It's Nicola and the rest. An uninspiring bunch. But hey they're our ane folk!

[The Harp Awakes]

What do you do if she goes, or decides one day she's had enough? Who steps in for her with that level of leadership skills? I've yet to see anyone come remotely close in her Cabinet.

I suspect Kate Forbes may be in the succession planning, albeit she's still very early on in her political career.

She speaks very well and has been a decent Finance secretary in difficult circumstances, particularly when you consider she was thrown in at the deep end hours after McKay's exit. She certainly needs to build more gravitas, but she'll learn a lot from working alongside NS.

[DaveF]

Too right. It's Nicola and the rest. An uninspiring bunch. But hey they're our ane folk!

I've no idea who is in the SNP talent pool but I'm pretty certain someone as anti Indy as you absolutely has no clue. Unless you want to prove me wrong and critique those who may be in the succession planning....

[lapsedhibee]

What do you do if she goes, or decides one day she's had enough? Who steps in for her with that level of leadership skills? I've yet to see anyone come remotely close in her Cabinet.

Talent pool is not just Holyrood cabinet though, it's all the MPs at Westminster as well. (Noone as good as Sturegon, certainly.)

[Peevemor]

Talent pool is not just Holyrood cabinet though, it's all the MPs at Westminster as well. (Noone as good as Sturegon, certainly.)

If Scotland does become independent Scottish politics will change beyond recognition.

Will the SNP remain a major force? They'll become far more fragile once their main aim is achieved.

Would we see an independent Scottish Labour party veer to the left and reclaim lost voters?

Would a Scottish Conservative (but not unionist) party be more palatable away from London control?

We could be in for some very interesting machinations.

[lapsedhibee]

If Scotland does become independent Scottish politics will change beyond recognition.

Will the SNP remain a major force? They'll become far more fragile once their main aim is achieved.

Would we see an independent Scottish Labour party veer to the left and reclaim lost voters?

Would a Scottish Conservative (but not unionist) party be more palatable away from London control?

We could be in for some very interesting machinations.

Mibbes, yes, yes, yes. :agree:

[Just Alf]

If Scotland does become independent Scottish politics will change beyond recognition.

Will the SNP remain a major force? They'll become far more fragile once their main aim is achieved.

Would we see an independent Scottish Labour party veer to the left and reclaim lost voters?

Would a Scottish Conservative (but not unionist) party be more palatable away from London control?

We could be in for some very interesting machinations.You've pretty much summed up how I hope it would go.

I'm West Edinburgh so it'll be SNP 1 Green 2 until a referendum has happened.

Assuming a yes, I can easily see Greens becoming a major force, they appear to act much more grown up in parliament than the others and despite not being in power have managed to influence governmental policy already.



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[Renfrew_Hibby]

If Scotland does become independent Scottish politics will change beyond recognition.

Will the SNP remain a major force? They'll become far more fragile once their main aim is achieved.

Would we see an independent Scottish Labour party veer to the left and reclaim lost voters?

Would a Scottish Conservative (but not unionist) party be more palatable away from London control?

We could be in for some very interesting machinations.

Wherever Cons raise their heads anywhere I am always repulsed.

[Stick]

Anyone know the validity of this?

And better yet the constituency breakdowns

This pretty much matches with the figures that I posted recently.
Mrs Stick has a degree in mathematics, and worked in IT, and calculated the projections based on the 2016 results. Posted results on her web site:- Scotland what if.weebly.com

Decisions on how to vote don’t just depend on figures though. Do you feel loyalty to the snp. Do you like the Greens? Do you feel it’s more important that the one party has most votes to persuade Boris? Do you feel the total indie vote is the important thing? Do you trust one of the new indie parties?

[SHODAN]

I suspect Kate Forbes may be in the succession planning, albeit she's still very early on in her political career.

She speaks very well and has been a decent Finance secretary in difficult circumstances, particularly when you consider she was thrown in at the deep end hours after McKay's exit. She certainly needs to build more gravitas, but she'll learn a lot from working alongside NS.

Forbes has some strong social conservative views that I and others would not be comfortable with.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Forbes has some strong social conservative views that I and others would not be comfortable with.

Too much of a goody two shoes for my liking, always wary of those types.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Talent pool is not just Holyrood cabinet though, it's all the MPs at Westminster as well. (Noone as good as Sturegon, certainly.)

From the green benches, David Linden, Drew Hendry, Philippa Whitford and Neil Gray have impressed me, not as assured as Sturgeon but there is potential there.

[Moulin Yarns]

This pretty much matches with the figures that I posted recently.
Mrs Stick has a degree in mathematics, and worked in IT, and calculated the projections based on the 2016 results. Posted results on her web site:- Scotland what if.weebly.com

Decisions on how to vote don’t just depend on figures though. Do you feel loyalty to the snp. Do you like the Greens? Do you feel it’s more important that the one party has most votes to persuade Boris? Do you feel the total indie vote is the important thing? Do you trust one of the new indie parties?

The table in your wife's website makes it a lot clearer 👍

[Peevemor]

Nice...

https://talkingupscotlandtwo.com/2021/03/24/latest-stunning-12-point-lead-for-yes-in-large-scale-poll/

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/whatscotsthink/status/1374292410600153088?s=21

I see two of the polls that showed a decline for Yes have had to be corrected.


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[JimBHibees]

https://twitter.com/whatscotsthink/status/1374292410600153088?s=21

I see two of the polls that showed a decline for Yes have had to be corrected.


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Wonder how common an occurrence that is with polls assume quite low as you would assume they would be checked and checked again to ensure integrity of them. Seems to have been a few in a very short space of time and all as far as I am aware only being mistakes in the one direction which does tend to make me cynical that they weren't actually mistakes at all but more an attempt to show a trend which either wasnt there or wasn't as big as was being presented.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210324/493ba8146fabcaa1d3ed4915e6a80aa6.jpg
Johnson having to tell people he is PM of Scotland. We’ve come a long way.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Lothian list seats last time.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210323/c9ca73474ef332f528d4bb1d8e21f154.jpg

Polls just now have SNP predicted to do at least as well as last time in the constituency vote so it will be difficult for them to get list mp’s.
It was the same in 2011. Lothian is very much an area where it’s best to vote SNP 1 Green 2 if Indy is a priority or even if you just want to keep Tories out.


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Neil Findlay retiring, i take it Andy Wightman will be standing as an independent ? i wonder if he will take all the green votes with him

[Mon Dieu4]

Lothian list seats last time.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210323/c9ca73474ef332f528d4bb1d8e21f154.jpg

Polls just now have SNP predicted to do at least as well as last time in the constituency vote so it will be difficult for them to get list mp’s.
It was the same in 2011. Lothian is very much an area where it’s best to vote SNP 1 Green 2 if Indy is a priority or even if you just want to keep Tories out.


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If you blank out the party names, 100% of people could pick out the Tories no problem at all on that list

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210324/493ba8146fabcaa1d3ed4915e6a80aa6.jpg
Johnson having to tell people he is PM of Scotland. We’ve come a long way.


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he couldn't even remember dross's name the other day, it was either douglas murray or murray ross

i can't remember which one either :(

[CropleyWasGod]

Neil Findlay retiring, i take it Andy Wightman will be standing as an independent ? i wonder if he will take all the green votes with him

Wightman is standing in a Highland constituency this time.

[Ozyhibby]

Wightman is standing in a Highland constituency this time.

I think he has close to zero chance of returning.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

Wightman is standing in a Highland constituency this time.


ta

:aok:

[cabbageandribs1875]

I think he has close to zero chance of returning.


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btw here's another view on list votes etc, it's a long read


‘Tactical Voting’ in the Scottish Parliament Election: a mass delusion deconstructed. | by ListVoteSense | Medium (https://listvotesense.medium.com/tactical-voting-in-the-scottish-parliament-election-a-mass-delusion-deconstructed-ceb65e64754e)

[JeMeSouviens]

Wightman is standing in a Highland constituency this time.

I think he's standing for the Highland Regional list. In the same way Margo MacDonald used to in Lothian.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1374705906194202632?s=21


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[Ozyhibby]

btw here's another view on list votes etc, it's a long read


‘Tactical Voting’ in the Scottish Parliament Election: a mass delusion deconstructed. | by ListVoteSense | Medium (https://listvotesense.medium.com/tactical-voting-in-the-scottish-parliament-election-a-mass-delusion-deconstructed-ceb65e64754e)

I agree with that. Only the Greens are a viable tactical option for electing pro Indy list MSP’s. The two tiny parties that have sprung up will disappear without a trace but may just get enough votes to let a Tory win a seat. They are a very bad idea.
For unionists I suggest lending your list vote to All for Unity. They look a solid bet.[emoji106]


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[JeMeSouviens]

btw here's another view on list votes etc, it's a long read


‘Tactical Voting’ in the Scottish Parliament Election: a mass delusion deconstructed. | by ListVoteSense | Medium (https://listvotesense.medium.com/tactical-voting-in-the-scottish-parliament-election-a-mass-delusion-deconstructed-ceb65e64754e)

Fantastic piece which deserves to be shared widely!

Coincidentally echoes my views pretty much exactly. :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

I think he's standing for the Highland Regional list. In the same way Margo MacDonald used to in Lothian.

Yep, you're right.

[Danderhall Hibs]

he couldn't even remember dross's name the other day, it was either douglas murray or murray ross

i can't remember which one either :(

I’m sure he done similar in PMQs today when not answering Blackfords question.

[Moulin Yarns]

Neil Findlay retiring, i take it Andy Wightman will be standing as an independent ? i wonder if he will take all the green votes with him

I gather Andy is standing in Highlands as an independent

[lapsedhibee]

I agree with that. Only the Greens are a viable tactical option for electing pro Indy list MSP’s. The two tiny parties that have sprung up will disappear without a trace but may just get enough votes to let a Tory win a seat. They are a very bad idea.


I think that article's saying it's not necessarily a good idea to vote SNP 1 Green 2 though.

[cabbageandribs1875]

I think that article's saying it's not necessarily a good idea to vote SNP 1 Green 2 though.


it does, i should have stated "alternative" viewpoint :) there's a plethora of different viewpoints out there unfortunately

[cabbageandribs1875]

I’m sure he done similar in PMQs today when not answering Blackfords question.


he never does answer Q's fully or at least without a snide comment, as many point out Hoyle doesn't step in and ask him to answer a question


a mate told me once again johnson said the scottish nationalist party, Hoyle dropped his chin this time and smirked, i really didn't want Hoyle to get the gig in the first place, not after he nearly burst the blood vessels in his neck screaming at Joanna Cherry a few years back, i wish Bercow hadn't left, a tory but at least he did bring some respect to the speakers seat and wasn't slow in checking those in the nasty party

[Alex Trager]

https://twitter.com/lbc/status/1374705906194202632?s=21


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Was that from today?
I will relisten if so

[Alex Trager]

Was that from today?
I will relisten if so

Yes it is

[Ozyhibby]

I think that article's saying it's not necessarily a good idea to vote SNP 1 Green 2 though.

Just read it properly. Bugger, I’m back to both vote SNP.


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[Keith_M]

My opinion of The Guardian newspaper has just gone down even further.

It's bad enough that they've been importing the US culture wars since their takeover in 2014(?), they've now sunk to a new low, printing an article by Katy Balls attacking Sturgeon.


"With Nicola Sturgeon safe, the battle for the union is back on"
Katy Balls (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/24/nicola-sturgeon-union-scottish-independence)



Jumping in bed with a right-wing Telegraph and Spectator writer. What happened to your much vaunted principles, you bunch of hypocrites?

:rolleyes:

[Kato]

My opinion of The Guardian newspaper has just gone down even further.

It's bad enough that they've been importing the US culture wars since their takeover in 2014(?), they've now sunk to a new low, printing an article by Katy Balls attacking Sturgeon.


"With Nicola Sturgeon safe, the battle for the union is back on"
Katy Balls (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/24/nicola-sturgeon-union-scottish-independence)



Jumping in bed with a right-wing Telegraph and Spectator writer. What happened to your much vaunted principles, you bunch of hypocrites?

:rolleyes:


It's quite a detailed article though, and a good way to look how the right-wing are looking at things.


This....

In the meantime, work is under way on what can be done to strengthen emotional attachments to the UK. Research is taking place into what makes a person feel Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and British.

..seems pathetic on face value but that is the area in which they operate. Brexit was all to do with emotions, pride and umbrage mainly, so it'll be interesting to look at the product from that report - things on the sides of buses probably.


Tory MPs anxious about the situation argue that the union needs to be put on the same footing as the government’s levelling-up agenda. “We need to treat it like levelling up – it has to be a guiding principle of this government’s agenda,” says one involved.


The question then would be what are the "levelling policies" in England that are being put into practice? Or was it just another slogan to repeat when being interviewed?

[cabbageandribs1875]

My opinion of The Guardian newspaper has just gone down even further.

It's bad enough that they've been importing the US culture wars since their takeover in 2014(?), they've now sunk to a new low, printing an article by Katy Balls attacking Sturgeon.


"With Nicola Sturgeon safe, the battle for the union is back on"
Katy Balls (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/24/nicola-sturgeon-union-scottish-independence)



Jumping in bed with a right-wing Telegraph and Spectator writer. What happened to your much vaunted principles, you bunch of hypocrites?

:rolleyes:


she a new addition to the guardian ?

i saw this on fb last week, don't know how old the list is but i think the guardian do a decent job(considering that list) at holding the tories to account and certainly haven't been calling for nicola sturgeon hangings :dunno: i haven't actually bought a paper for well over 10 years and there's only three online news outlets i read, the National(that i pay a subscription for), and the Guardian and Daily Heil english editions, the daily heil may sound an odd choice but i don't think it's bad for news, one thing i learnt pretty quickly was absolutely do NOT look at their comment sections, especially anything to do with SNP/Nicola sturgeon, even the day before the committee meeting there were several anti NS articles with absolutely disgraceful titles which i didn't even read so i can only imagine the comments, the day after the announcement there was just ONE article...funny that

24476

[degenerated]

This will show those jock nats that the Brits mean businesshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210324/5269ada7b0de6fe105af922318fe6437.jpg

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[Ozyhibby]

This will show those jock nats that the Brits mean businesshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210324/5269ada7b0de6fe105af922318fe6437.jpg

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Woohoo. Scotland will start looking like East Belfast. [emoji849]


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[Future17]

It's quite a detailed article though, and a good way to look how the right-wing are looking at things.


This....

In the meantime, work is under way on what can be done to strengthen emotional attachments to the UK. Research is taking place into what makes a person feel Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and British.

..seems pathetic on face value but that is the area in which they operate. Brexit was all to do with emotions, pride and umbrage mainly, so it'll be interesting to look at the product from that report - things on the sides of buses probably.


Tory MPs anxious about the situation argue that the union needs to be put on the same footing as the government’s levelling-up agenda. “We need to treat it like levelling up – it has to be a guiding principle of this government’s agenda,” says one involved.


The question then would be what are the "levelling policies" in England that are being put into practice? Or was it just another slogan to repeat when being interviewed?

My understanding of the levelling up policy in practice is more cash for areas which vote Tory.

[weecounty hibby]

This will show those jock nats that the Brits mean businesshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210324/5269ada7b0de6fe105af922318fe6437.jpg

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It's all gone a bit 1930s Germany!!

[degenerated]

Woohoo. Scotland will start looking like East Belfast. [emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWhereas Belfast appears to be missing out on this particular Union dividend

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[Ozyhibby]

https://news.stv.tv/politics/uk-government-may-stop-holyrood-bills-from-becoming-law?top&amp&__twitter_impression=true

Tories opposing rights for children and undermining the Scottish parliament.


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[degenerated]

It's all gone a bit 1930s Germany!!How long before they start wearing uniforms [emoji23]

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[lord bunberry]

It's all gone a bit 1930s Germany!!
We’ll have huge banners with BJ’s face all over the country before long. How people can look at all this and not be a bit worried is beyond me.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/163349370_1864716070352009_590986794808438295_n.jp g?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=DWWuMGzwQL8AX9wtgab&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=c45ac2e0c6712eb479e7741ff7550121&oe=6080E497


oh it's coming alright, just wait until that indy2 is out of the way,and if it's a No, hell mend us, they're hanging fire as much as they can until then

[cabbageandribs1875]

Woohoo. Scotland will start looking like East Belfast. [emoji849]


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unfortunately i had to drive through Whitburn cross yesterday, it was like the last night of the proms


i said within months of moving to Bathgate 30 years ago i would never move any further west than here

[Ozyhibby]

How long before they start wearing uniforms [emoji23]

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And Union Jack arm bands.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/119988379_10217135268551166_5751490165832116238_n. jpg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=NXeCMD2ZorMAX8B9kX-&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=fe40690ca71513a7438f9a3e02c16c73&oe=6081B6C6

[Killiehibbie]

Woohoo. Scotland will start looking like East Belfast. [emoji849]


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Some parts have looked like that for decades with union jacks and red hand flags displayed all year round.

[heretoday]

Some parts have looked like that for decades with union jacks and red hand flags displayed all year round.

After Indy we could see some very colourful decor in sections of Glasgow especially.

[Mon Dieu4]

Flag debate on .net, what could possibly go wrong :greengrin

[Jones28]

he couldn't even remember dross's name the other day, it was either douglas murray or murray ross

i can't remember which one either :(

I could have sworn he mumbled “whatshisname” in reference to the Linesman today at PMQ’s.

[cabbageandribs1875]

BBC One Set to Debut ‘The Union Jack Hour’ (openinggambit.media) (https://openinggambit.media/2021/03/24/bbc-one-set-to-debut-the-union-jack-hour/?fbclid=IwAR0XEgO6bJTxhtejULw20_HTsTDR2rzE5wZ0GUqj QTzR6ZXSC0aVojYNKLM)


The BBC has announced that it will be debuting its new flagship show ‘The Union Jack Hour’, next Monday on BBC One.

[DaveF]

BBC One Set to Debut ‘The Union Jack Hour’ (openinggambit.media) (https://openinggambit.media/2021/03/24/bbc-one-set-to-debut-the-union-jack-hour/?fbclid=IwAR0XEgO6bJTxhtejULw20_HTsTDR2rzE5wZ0GUqj QTzR6ZXSC0aVojYNKLM)


The BBC has announced that it will be debuting its new flagship show ‘The Union Jack Hour’, next Monday on BBC One.

Haha 🤣

[Jones28]

BBC One Set to Debut ‘The Union Jack Hour’ (openinggambit.media) (https://openinggambit.media/2021/03/24/bbc-one-set-to-debut-the-union-jack-hour/?fbclid=IwAR0XEgO6bJTxhtejULw20_HTsTDR2rzE5wZ0GUqj QTzR6ZXSC0aVojYNKLM)


The BBC has announced that it will be debuting its new flagship show ‘The Union Jack Hour’, next Monday on BBC One.

It at least beats the One Show

[Stick]

it does, i should have stated "alternative" viewpoint :) there's a plethora of different viewpoints out there unfortunately




Interesting article, I agree with some parts but not others.
Agree that voting for the new indie parties is a wasted vote. Don’t agree with his thoughts on the greens vote.
The author, not named, probably snp supporter, started with the premise that snp both was best and set out to prove it. I have read similarly detailed articles which have shown the opposite result. Even Campbell ( I know), before he went crazy, posted a very detailed examination of why not to vote snp both, and his calculations made sense. No doubt in the coming weeks we will be deluged with similar information from all viewpoints.
You know what they say about lies, dam lies, and statistics.
Voting both snp maximises snp seats, voting snp with green list vote maximises the indie seats.
Even that article agrees.
quote:-

“We see that, despite the supposed handicap of having an all but a clean sweep of the constituency seats (70 out of 73), the SNP is still able to gain seats, as its list percentage increases, albeit not quite enough to match the loss of Green seats.”

Although snp 70 or 73 seats seems improbable.
I would also mention that he has based his projections on one particular panelbase poll,(which was a high yes one), if he had chosen an earlier or later poll, his results would have been different.
It’s not just about increasing the indie seats it’s also about reducing the unionists seats.

The bottom line is that we all have to make up our own minds, read all viewpoints, but be suspicious of all of them, go with your common sense and gut feeling.
I have looked at my region and there is no way that the snp can gain any more seats, so it’s snp and greens for me.

If you want a clear explanation of how the voting system works go to - Scotlandwhatif.weebly.com.
Page” how it works”.
The first two pages show possibilities based on the actual 2016 results.
Work out the figures for your own region and make up your own mind.

[Ozyhibby]

https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/03/survation-poll-provides-more-evidence.html?m=1


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[degenerated]

I look forward to our police car sirens in an independent Scotland

https://twitter.com/OFalafel/status/1375027132947165185?s=19

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[silverhibee]

After Indy we could see some very colourful decor in sections of Glasgow especially.

Looks like it has started in Drylaw pavements painted & UJs all over the place.

[SHODAN]

BBC One Set to Debut ‘The Union Jack Hour’ (openinggambit.media) (https://openinggambit.media/2021/03/24/bbc-one-set-to-debut-the-union-jack-hour/?fbclid=IwAR0XEgO6bJTxhtejULw20_HTsTDR2rzE5wZ0GUqj QTzR6ZXSC0aVojYNKLM)


The BBC has announced that it will be debuting its new flagship show ‘The Union Jack Hour’, next Monday on BBC One.

Until I clicked the link I honestly believed this.

[ronaldo7]

Until I clicked the link I honestly believed this.

It's not your fault. It's the way they've been heading for a while. Watch out for the next big show of who's got the biggest pole on the biggest building with the biggest flag.

Flag ****gers for Britain.

[Pretty Boy]

https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/03/survation-poll-provides-more-evidence.html?m=1


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I'm always curious about the don't knows in these types of polls. I honestly struggle to understand how anyone can't have a position on independence given all that the last decade has thrown up.

I'm increasingly downbeat about what an independent Scotland will look like. I've gone from believing we would be looking at something quite radical to accepting it will be some New Labouresque vision minus the wars. I'd still vote yes if a vote was held tomorrow though because I have seen the alternative.

I can't think of encountering anyone over the last few years who is undecided. I know 1 person who has switched from no to yes but everyone else has their opinion and is entrenched in it. There are obviously those who are soft yes or no who may change their mind when campaigning starts (if it ever really stopped) but surely people who genuinely don't know are miniscule in number?

[Ozyhibby]

I'm always curious about the don't knows in these types of polls. I honestly struggle to understand how anyone can't have a position on independence given all that the last decade has thrown up.

I'm increasingly downbeat about what an independent Scotland will look like. I've gone from believing we would be looking at something quite radical to accepting it will be some New Labouresque vision minus the wars. I'd still vote yes if a vote was held tomorrow though because I have seen the alternative.

I can't think of encountering anyone over the last few years who is undecided. I know 1 person who has switched from no to yes but everyone else has their opinion and is entrenched in it. There are obviously those who are soft yes or no who may change their mind when campaigning starts (if it ever really stopped) but surely people who genuinely don't know are miniscule in number?

I think the remain voting no voters from last time are the biggest swing group for the next indyref. Win them over and you win I think.


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[JeMeSouviens]

I'm always curious about the don't knows in these types of polls. I honestly struggle to understand how anyone can't have a position on independence given all that the last decade has thrown up.

I'm increasingly downbeat about what an independent Scotland will look like. I've gone from believing we would be looking at something quite radical to accepting it will be some New Labouresque vision minus the wars. I'd still vote yes if a vote was held tomorrow though because I have seen the alternative.

I can't think of encountering anyone over the last few years who is undecided. I know 1 person who has switched from no to yes but everyone else has their opinion and is entrenched in it. There are obviously those who are soft yes or no who may change their mind when campaigning starts (if it ever really stopped) but surely people who genuinely don't know are miniscule in number?

Remember you're only talking about the starting point. I mean the UK has gone from a New Labouresque vision (inc wars) to something very radical but not in a good way in a little over 10 years. So the possibility is there, albeit I don't think there is as much appetite for radicalism as many Scots like to think there is.

tbh, just being a fairly sane social democracy would be a radical departure from today's UK.

[SHODAN]

Remember you're only talking about the starting point. I mean the UK has gone from a New Labouresque vision (inc wars) to something very radical but not in a good way in a little over 10 years. So the possibility is there, albeit I don't think there is as much appetite for radicalism as many Scots like to think there is.

tbh, just being a fairly sane social democracy would be a radical departure from today's UK.

If we ended up like a Finland or Sweden I'd be ecstatic.

[Kato]

tbh, just being a fairly sane social democracy would be a radical departure from today's UK.


Was going to say when reading your first paragraph - treading water and not going full-on flag waving loony is radical at the moment.

[Pretty Boy]

If we ended up like a Finland or Sweden I'd be ecstatic.

From the position we are in I would classify that as fairly radical.

[hibsbollah]

If we ended up like a Finland or Sweden I'd be ecstatic.

Have you been to Finland? Free education, tiny wage disparities between executives and menial workers, high taxes high public spending? It’s way to the ideological left of what Corbyns Labour was proposing, it would be a massive massive cultural and ideological shift from where we are now.

[Mon Dieu4]

Have you been to Finland? Free education, tiny wage disparities between executives and menial workers, high taxes high public spending? It’s way to the ideological left of what Corbyns Labour was proposing, it would be a massive massive cultural and ideological shift from where we are now.

You had your chance to go haha

[hibsbollah]

You had your chance to go haha

How did you know that?
I give away way too much of my life on here :faf:

[Mon Dieu4]

How did you know that?
I give away way too much of my life on here :faf:

Sure we spoke about it in the boozer or something before, I had an epiphany when you said that earlier

[cabbageandribs1875]

on this day in 1306: Robert The Bruce was crowned King of Scots at Scone

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p526x296/164668198_10159396515288559_7084042636375700144_o. jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=2c4854&_nc_ohc=Tui1BGrlkuQAX9fRBVF&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&tp=6&oh=9e56ed46e3e90d57214c281899f00abb&oe=6082EED2

[hibsbollah]

Sure we spoke about it in the boozer or something before, I had an epiphany when you said that earlier

Thanks for paying attention :greengrin Another Harp and Castle blur...

[Ozyhibby]

Have you been to Finland? Free education, tiny wage disparities between executives and menial workers, high taxes high public spending? It’s way to the ideological left of what Corbyns Labour was proposing, it would be a massive massive cultural and ideological shift from where we are now.

Finland is also a free market economy. Business thrives there.
Scotland would do well to copy a lot of what all our near neighbours do as they are all doing better than us.


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[hibsbollah]

Finland is also a free market economy. Business thrives there.
Scotland would do well to copy a lot of what all our near neighbours do as they are all doing better than us.


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Yep, a free market mixed economy. I don’t think any politician in the western world is suggesting anything else.

I know your politics Ozy, you’d be on the first plane out of Finland when you looked at their income taxes :faf: You’d be happier under Boris’ yoke, trust me.

Anyway, off topic!

[Jack]

I'm always curious about the don't knows in these types of polls. I honestly struggle to understand how anyone can't have a position on independence given all that the last decade has thrown up.

I'm increasingly downbeat about what an independent Scotland will look like. I've gone from believing we would be looking at something quite radical to accepting it will be some New Labouresque vision minus the wars. I'd still vote yes if a vote was held tomorrow though because I have seen the alternative.

I can't think of encountering anyone over the last few years who is undecided. I know 1 person who has switched from no to yes but everyone else has their opinion and is entrenched in it. There are obviously those who are soft yes or no who may change their mind when campaigning starts (if it ever really stopped) but surely people who genuinely don't know are miniscule in number?

Maybe the don't knows are mostly No telling you!

[Ozyhibby]

Yep, a free market mixed economy. I don’t think any politician in the western world is suggesting anything else.

I know your politics Ozy, you’d be on the first plane out of Finland when you looked at their income taxes :faf: You’d be happier under Boris’ yoke, trust me.

Anyway, off topic!

Income tax I’m ok with. [emoji6]


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[SHODAN]

Have you been to Finland? Free education, tiny wage disparities between executives and menial workers, high taxes high public spending? It’s way to the ideological left of what Corbyns Labour was proposing, it would be a massive massive cultural and ideological shift from where we are now.

I have; I've considered moving there.

[hibsbollah]

I have; I've considered moving there.

Finland Hibs supporters club lost potential TWO members then :boo hoo:

[Keith_M]

If we ended up like a Finland or Sweden I'd be ecstatic.


If we ended up like Germany, I'd be over the moon.

[Smartie]

I think being anything other than the bit bolted onto England whilst it goes through this far right nationalist phase would be an improvement on the status quo.

[Hibrandenburg]

If we ended up like Germany, I'd be over the moon.

Nah, like Norway would be much better. The beauty of being an independent wee country as opposed to an independent big country is that the gulf between the majority on any particular subject and the minority is numerically much smaller, resulting in the need for cooperation and concession on nearly everything and thus creating a society that is used to coalition democracy and give and take.

[Glory Lurker]

Nah, like Norway would be much better. The beauty of being an independent wee country as opposed to an independent big country is that the gulf between the majority on any particular subject and the minority is numerically much smaller, resulting in the need for cooperation and concession on nearly everything and thus creating a society that is used to coalition democracy and give and take.

Without the whaling, though.

[Moulin Yarns]

Tommy Sheridan standing for action for independence party

[Ozyhibby]

Tommy Sheridan standing for action for independence party

He’ll do as well as he done in 2016


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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/165709605_3651650978266995_3643476121558739857_o.j pg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=luI5YxCagAoAX-nEB0Q&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=d9d241e72bb603c902ce3d0a2390e9f1&oe=6083CE73

[cabbageandribs1875]

24499

[Crunchie]

Nah, like Norway would be much better. The beauty of being an independent wee country as opposed to an independent big country is that the gulf between the majority on any particular subject and the minority is numerically much smaller, resulting in the need for cooperation and concession on nearly everything and thus creating a society that is used to coalition democracy and give and take.
We'd never be like Norway though, the SNP are hell bent on joining the EU.

[Hibrandenburg]

We'd never be like Norway though, the SNP are hell bent on joining the EU.

Even better :wink:

[Alex Trager]

We'd never be like Norway though, the SNP are hell bent on joining the EU.

Are the SNP the party that would decide our future?

Surely we would go into another election period as soon as Indy was delivered to decide who leads us.

In that instance, I’d expect SNP numbers to plummet

[Ozyhibby]

Are the SNP the party that would decide our future?

Surely we would go into another election period as soon as Indy was delivered to decide who leads us.

In that instance, I’d expect SNP numbers to plummet

On the back of a referendum win I’d expect the SNP to triumph. It’s only in the long term the SNP might fade after Indy. The party infrastructure is still very strong and they are not going to just give up that centre left ground they occupy.


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[Alex Trager]

On the back of a referendum win I’d expect the SNP to triumph. It’s only in the long term the SNP might fade after Indy. The party infrastructure is still very strong and they are not going to just give up that centre left ground they occupy.


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Fair enough.

I’m fairly confident that their performance in other sectors is playing a huge part in people’s reluctance to vote them, I include myself in that.

They’re a means to an end.

[Ozyhibby]

Fair enough.

I’m fairly confident that their performance in other sectors is playing a huge part in people’s reluctance to vote them, I include myself in that.

They’re a means to an end.

Is there a reluctance to vote for them? They are currently polling at about 48-50%? That’s better than any result they have had previously? The party are more popular than they have ever been, to the point opponents are whining about one party state?


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[Just Alf]

Is there a reluctance to vote for them? They are currently polling at about 48-50%? That’s better than any result they have had previously? The party are more popular than they have ever been, to the point opponents are whining about one party state?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI agree with AT on this one, people say they're holding their nose while placing their X in the SNP box, IF independence is delivered then the focus will entirely be on their policies and past performance.

Also agree they'll likely romp the honeymoon election.

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[Keith_M]

Fair enough.

I’m fairly confident that their performance in other sectors is playing a huge part in people’s reluctance to vote them, I include myself in that.

They’re a means to an end.


I agree with this, as a number of people have stated similar views (people who would normally vote Labour, for instance).

IF independence happens, it would be interesting to see how those in other parties, such as Labour, the Lib-Dems and the Conservatives, reorganise themselves. They're currently members of UK parties and would have to form new, independent versions of those parties, or start from scratch.

[Alex Trager]

Is there a reluctance to vote for them? They are currently polling at about 48-50%? That’s better than any result they have had previously? The party are more popular than they have ever been, to the point opponents are whining about one party state?


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As I said I think they are a means to an end.

So you’re right to point out they are polling well, I just think a lot of that is because of Indy.

I personally think they will drop off, probably not in the first election as has been pointed out, but beyond that.

They’ll certainly not be as popular (I hope) as they are now.
Which is a great thing.

We want all corners of society represented in the house, and I (reluctantly) include the tories in that.

Right now, everything is caught up on independence. Every party is talking about it, and has since brexit.
Hopefully it happens and we can take leaps and bounds forward as a democratic society.

[Alex Trager]

I agree with this, as a number of people have stated similar views (people who would normally vote Labour, for instance).

IF independence happens, it would be interesting to see how those in other parties, such as Labour, the Lib-Dems and the Conservatives, reorganise themselves. They're currently members of UK parties and would have to form new, independent versions of those parties, or start from scratch.

It will be interesting to watch actually. I never considered this myself.

I’d like to think we can move on and establish worthwhile parties in the country. Right now it is vote for indy (snp) or vote to remain (tory).

[Smartie]

If it wasn’t for independence, people would be getting tired with the SNP by now.

They’ve been a decent government, many good achievements, the odd blot along the way. People get fed up with more of the same eventually and it gets easier for opposition to make a positive case for change.

It’s all about independence though, and the opposition being who the opposition are, it is very hard for them to make a positive case for anything.

Independence is the only issue that is of any significance and one way or another it needs put to bed because it isn’t a healthy situation for us all to be relatively unconcerned about all the other important stuff.

FWIW - I view the SNP as a means to an end and would want them to disband at some point after independence. I relish the thought of new politics in Scotland with politics of alliance and coalition between new, re-branded political parties from all parts of the political spectrum.

[Jack]

On the back of a referendum win I’d expect the SNP to triumph. It’s only in the long term the SNP might fade after Indy. The party infrastructure is still very strong and they are not going to just give up that centre left ground they occupy.


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I agree. I think it might take 3 or 4 elections before the SNP start to fade, depending on how well they're doing obviously.

I don't know how many Scottish politicians there are, off the top of my head, or how many seats there will be in an Independent Scottish Parliament but it will certainly be fewer than the number of current sitting members. And then there's 3 or 4 times that many hopefuls. Interesting times ahead.

I also think there's more than a few who will look to swap parties, mainly away from the SNP and where will they fit in in the hierarchy of their new party.

Do we know what will happen to Scottish Lords? Those with heritable seats and those that thought they had jobs for life?

[Alex Trager]

If it wasn’t for independence, people would be getting tired with the SNP by now.

They’ve been a decent government, many good achievements, the odd blot along the way. People get fed up with more of the same eventually and it gets easier for opposition to make a positive case for change.

It’s all about independence though, and the opposition being who the opposition are, it is very hard for them to make a positive case for anything.

Independence is the only issue that is of any significance and one way or another it needs put to bed because it isn’t a healthy situation for us all to be relatively unconcerned about all the other important stuff.

FWIW - I view the SNP as a means to an end and would want them to disband at some point after independence. I relish the thought of new politics in Scotland with politics of alliance and coalition between new, re-branded political parties from all parts of the political spectrum.

Much more eloquently put than I achieved.

I mirror Mr Smart’s views.
Particularly the end.

That is the dream!

[cabbageandribs1875]

Henrik Hjortshoj in Denmark

24502


lovely to see the Saltire :agree: i saw a main road in Holland a few months back that has all the EU flags hoisted...a Saltire instead of the Apron looked lovely as well

[cabbageandribs1875]

Madison kens the score

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/165480808_1650410188479960_7103484988687182502_o.j pg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=WEqHBX6OSYsAX8eZcrB&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=b85cfd7b646b23dc44fa1640ec9883de&oe=60867167

[Colr]

I have; I've considered moving there.

Would they have us? Do they speak good English ‘cos my Finnish begins and ends with “Paatelainen”

[Colr]

Tommy Sheridan standing for action for independence party

I work with him way back. He was a really decent, intelligent guy.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/165797699_268680078200202_6902108321261847472_n.jp g?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=VrYUcO2RNnoAX8OhXlZ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=548cc943b8b47eef31abc7e61dbb3f9d&oe=608483A0

[cabbageandribs1875]

Fine we know it Mr Major, try telling it to Scots who just can't understand/accept that :agree: over 60 nations that escaped this so called GREAT Britain, and not one begs to come back, must be something wrong there.


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/165614911_1132926263787432_3891077611420174136_n.j pg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=MQBCNkBRZUkAX-tn65l&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=1dc8532b29aadeaa7927ac0ee28e8238&oe=608394CB

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210328/0b5f504fb144b45c859d04f7aa8879c8.jpg
Can they do this in Scotland?


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[Glory Lurker]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210328/0b5f504fb144b45c859d04f7aa8879c8.jpg
Can they do this in Scotland?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't think so, fortunately.

[Keith_M]

A totally scandalous article in the Herald has referred to the Tories, Labour and Lib-Dems as the 'Unionist parties'.


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19193392.unionist-parties-squabble-respond-salmonds-alba/


One or two posters on here are definitely going to be upset about them using the 'U' word.

:wink:

[StevieC]

A totally scandalous article in the Herald has referred to the Tories, Labour and Lib-Dems as the 'Unionist parties'.


https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19193392.unionist-parties-squabble-respond-salmonds-alba/


One or two posters on here are definitely going to be upset about them using the 'U' word.

:wink:

Even worse .. Murray Ross Murray Douglas Murray referred to them as “fellow unionist parties!

“Scottish Tory leader Douglas Ross hit out at his fellow Unionist parties“

[Just Alf]

Fine we know it Mr Major, try telling it to Scots who just can't understand/accept that :agree: over 60 nations that escaped this so called GREAT Britain, and not one begs to come back, must be something wrong there.


https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/165614911_1132926263787432_3891077611420174136_n.j pg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=MQBCNkBRZUkAX-tn65l&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=1dc8532b29aadeaa7927ac0ee28e8238&oe=608394CBI wondered why the media were trying to trash his name, reading this I now get why.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/164652507_10158426384609527_9104751233040355118_n. jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=EMzKVf1uPggAX_N3xBd&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=ab445cb624751d16d31dc1bc56a75130&oe=608642D2

[cabbageandribs1875]

I wondered why the media were trying to trash his name, reading this I now get why.


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missed that, what they saying :greengrin

[Keith_M]

Nah, like Norway would be much better. The beauty of being an independent wee country as opposed to an independent big country is that the gulf between the majority on any particular subject and the minority is numerically much smaller, resulting in the need for cooperation and concession on nearly everything and thus creating a society that is used to coalition democracy and give and take.


I was actually setting a very low bar, as in... 'even being like Germany would be a better option'.


We really need a sarcasm tag to make things more obvious ;-)

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/166726802_954219645115315_280697172821938255_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=7LtFZttG8yYAX9F4XEF&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=3ea3c712a454048ae05cd4aae7669f08&oe=6089627C

[cabbageandribs1875]

all the very best to her/them

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/166574898_2921906631463236_7514646239692447533_o.j pg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=IpAO8Wrto5gAX9m4yys&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=569933a925de1e6ab887e76f591f8bb1&oe=608768A8

[Future17]

all the very best to her/them

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/166574898_2921906631463236_7514646239692447533_o.j pg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=IpAO8Wrto5gAX9m4yys&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=569933a925de1e6ab887e76f591f8bb1&oe=608768A8

You can never be too careful with a person's pronouns these days. :agree:

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210330/d2e3c07302f6e3b684af1ca4438562e0.jpg

Yes back up to 52%


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[Keith_M]

...

Yes back up to 52%




I've always thought that was likely once the Salmond case was over.

[Peevemor]

I've always thought that was likely once the Salmond case was over.

Regardless of the opinion polls, I think levels have stayed pretty much the same.

I really hope that Salmond and his bunch of bampots carry on as they're doing so they get as few votes as possible in the election.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210330/d2e3c07302f6e3b684af1ca4438562e0.jpg

Yes back up to 52%


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You can’t really say “back up”, it’s a new pollster who have never done an indy poll afaik.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/55731019_354861091816980_7506605803994873856_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=2uLlyoQoQp8AX847GuL&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=5177da8140b15ffc32fcba4ad613d397&oe=60891A6A




not just Germany Amy, Holland/France and others :agree: it's something we won't get in the Tory British press, it's the Scots that loathe our country i feel sad for

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/721dd03c-916c-11eb-930d-e9e6e3751f8f?shareToken=34fcded17315f8ee956c256e9c 8ccc46

I agree with all of this. Salmond is undermining the parliament and the independence movement.


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[JeMeSouviens]

A useful summary of the likely state of play post-Indy on iScot-EU-UK relations.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publications/scottish-independence-eu-border

I doubt there's much there the denizens of the HG don't know already. :greengrin

One thing I think is absolutely imperative is that the Yes side don't make stupid Brexiter style pronouncements that everything's magically going to be frictionless, leaving the UK an open goal of saying, "no, we won't agree :na na:".

The message should be that, yes, there will be a potentially painful few years of transition, but it will be well worth it.

[Bristolhibby]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/721dd03c-916c-11eb-930d-e9e6e3751f8f?shareToken=34fcded17315f8ee956c256e9c 8ccc46

I agree with all of this. Salmond is undermining the parliament and the independence movement.


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Hmmm, not sure. You can only piss with the cock you’ve got, springs to mind. If this is the system that Scotland uses to elect MSPs then that’s the system.

We are in danger of mixing our metaphors. If there is a majority of MSPs who want an Independence vote, it should be given. If that’s SNP on their own, or with the Greens or with Alba, it’s the current rules of the game. It’s not as if the Tories are reflective of their 80 FPTP seat majority in Westminster, but turns the rules of the game.

Doesn’t matter how it’s made up. Remember Unionist parties are able to run as constituent MSPs. It’s not the SNPs fault they by and large will get skelped.

The big “crisis” will come when the Westminster Tory Parliament refuses a vote. What will be Scotland’s route to independence. Most normal countries would just need a majority in their parliament. But the chance to ask the question must be allowed.

J

[Bristolhibby]

A useful summary of the likely state of play post-Indy on iScot-EU-UK relations.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publications/scottish-independence-eu-border

I doubt there's much there the denizens of the HG don't know already. :greengrin

One thing I think is absolutely imperative is that the Yes side don't make stupid Brexiter style pronouncements that everything's magically going to be frictionless, leaving the UK an open goal of saying, "no, we won't agree :na na:".

The message should be that, yes, there will be a potentially painful few years of transition, but it will be well worth it.

Just had a squiz, Scotland would not be in the Schengen. I would see Scotland having an Ireland like border, one that can allow for people to pass and goods to be checked.

I would also imagine lots of dual passported people on the island of Great Britain, effectively having the best of both worlds.

I’m sure there’s many Scots born in England and vice versa, added to the Scots (me) who live in England.

J

[JeMeSouviens]

Just had a squiz, Scotland would not be in the Schengen. I would see Scotland having an Ireland like border, one that can allow for people to pass and goods to be checked.

I would also imagine lots of dual passported people on the island of Great Britain, effectively having the best of both worlds.

I’m sure there’s many Scots born in England and vice versa, added to the Scots (me) who live in England.

J

Yes, I think that's most likely too.

[Ozyhibby]

Just had a squiz, Scotland would not be in the Schengen. I would see Scotland having an Ireland like border, one that can allow for people to pass and goods to be checked.

I would also imagine lots of dual passported people on the island of Great Britain, effectively having the best of both worlds.

I’m sure there’s many Scots born in England and vice versa, added to the Scots (me) who live in England.

J

I think the EU would be comfortable with us retaining the common travel area just as Ireland has but who knows how the UK will act.
We do need to be honest with people about the border with England though. They seem determined to shut themselves of from the rest of Europe and if we go to the EU side then trade with England will become more difficult. The EU is much bigger though and the opportunities that will bring will be huge.
And I’m totally comfortable with us adopting the Euro.


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[danhibees1875]

I think the EU would be comfortable with us retaining the common travel area just as Ireland has but who knows how the UK will act.
We do need to be honest with people about the border with England though. They seem determined to shut themselves of from the rest of Europe and if we go to the EU side then trade with England will become more difficult. The EU is much bigger though and the opportunities that will bring will be huge.
And I’m totally comfortable with us adopting the Euro.


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Adopting the euro might not be the worst idea - is there an agreed upon direction of travel on the currency question yet?

I'm also not sure where we are in terms of likelihood of joining the EU. I think there would be sufficient political desire from an iScotland to do so but we might face issues with either a) being voted in (i'd be fairly confident but there's a couple of hurdles there anyway), or b) meeting necessary criteria even if voted in. Again on b, I'd be relatively confident on most areas with the exception of working towards a significantly lower deficit (with more strict criteria on that if the Euro was the currency of choice) - a path we're not exactly charging down.

[Jack]

I think the EU would be comfortable with us retaining the common travel area just as Ireland has but who knows how the UK will act.
We do need to be honest with people about the border with England though. They seem determined to shut themselves of from the rest of Europe and if we go to the EU side then trade with England will become more difficult. The EU is much bigger though and the opportunities that will bring will be huge.
And I’m totally comfortable with us adopting the Euro.


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I don't see Westminster continuing with the current arrangements with the EU much longer. It will capitulate big time in the face of the export difficulties we currently have and the import difficulties that are about to be experienced.

The NI issues will have also been mostly resolved.

By the time Scotland joins the EU the UK/Westminster will be well used to be doing what's its telt!

[wookie70]

Adopting the euro might not be the worst idea - is there an agreed upon direction of travel on the currency question yet?

I'm also not sure where we are in terms of likelihood of joining the EU. I think there would be sufficient political desire from an iScotland to do so but we might face issues with either a) being voted in (i'd be fairly confident but there's a couple of hurdles there anyway), or b) meeting necessary criteria even if voted in. Again on b, I'd be relatively confident on most areas with the exception of working towards a significantly lower deficit (with more strict criteria on that if the Euro was the currency of choice) - a path we're not exactly charging down.

I agree with adopting the Euro. I want as many questions that were unanswered properly last time answered. I couldn't give a flying what currency we use, I'd rather lose the monarchy and if I need a Passport to get into England then I will use one. SNP and other Indi parties need to get the script right and not be afraid. I have no issue with a prediction of there being short term economic difficulties for longer term benefits. If that tit Reece Mogg can predict 50 years worth of financial pain then surely we can make a reasonable prediction. It can also be balanced by some economic principals a new Scotland if led by the SNP for instance could adopt such as UBI and pensions based on percentages of average wage etc. Even if the country is poorer it doesn't necessarily mean the bulk of citizens will be. The cake can be cut more equally>

I don't think the numbers for an Indi vote allowed politicians to be honest about the immediate future at least in any detail. I think more detail could be given this time and could help why those who cannot deal with the uncertainty. Independence may come at a cost initially but like an expensive pair of walking boots they are well worth it in the long run

[SHODAN]

Count me in the "adopt the Euro" brigade. The pound isn't exactly doing well.

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/167638973_3647083662080102_5349691266860921837_n.j pg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=F7QrkSDkNMgAX82rdcY&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=6527c2f77e517087436c2ac0fd93ae47&oe=608AC5EC

[cabbageandribs1875]

Boris Johnson's unofficial Deputy has spoken

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes back in front with Survation: Y51 N49

[Northernhibee]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/167638973_3647083662080102_5349691266860921837_n.j pg?_nc_cat=101&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=F7QrkSDkNMgAX82rdcY&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=6527c2f77e517087436c2ac0fd93ae47&oe=608AC5EC

It's scary how much of an open goal the SNP are getting here.

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes back in front with Survation: Y51 N49

Is that the one for DC Thompson? Alba 3% and no seats

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/84594645_2744701878953090_7853140906650632192_n.jp g?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=dii2NyifYVoAX87ByY6&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=bad8aa7bf7e9bb96e771257e0e993bd5&oe=608BFEEF


John Jappy was a retired civil servant sadly no longer with us, i watched a video of him at a(i think) local SNP group meeting last year but managed to delete the link, it was quite revealing how Westminster treat Scotland.

[cabbageandribs1875]

It's scary how much of an open goal the SNP are getting here.



he doesn't like Democracy much, unless it suits him

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210401/3a2010a35fc3d98349a59e88f6f3db7e.jpg
Rifkind is a decent writer. Will be delighted if he switches sides. Or even if he just goes neutral.


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[JeMeSouviens]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210401/3a2010a35fc3d98349a59e88f6f3db7e.jpg
Rifkind is a decent writer. Will be delighted if he switches sides. Or even if he just goes neutral.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

His Dad will be spewing (hopefully :wink:).

[JimBHibees]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/84594645_2744701878953090_7853140906650632192_n.jp g?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=dii2NyifYVoAX87ByY6&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=bad8aa7bf7e9bb96e771257e0e993bd5&oe=608BFEEF


John Jappy was a retired civil servant sadly no longer with us, i watched a video of him at a(i think) local SNP group meeting last year but managed to delete the link, it was quite revealing how Westminster treat Scotland.

Think there was a civil service report which was hushed up in the 1970s which outlined due to the oil boom that Scotland could have been the 3rd richest country in the world.

[Jack]

Think there was a civil service report which was hushed up in the 1970s which outlined due to the oil boom that Scotland could have been the 3rd richest country in the world.

The McCrone Report.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17461406.westminster-doesnt-want-read-mccrone-report-full/

It suggested Westminster keep Scotland sweet otherwise the wealth from North Sea oil would fuel Scottish independence.

It also said if managed properly, taking the oil from the sea slowly so that proper infrastructure could be put in place to benefit Scotland and the UK more generally would be the best way forward. Instead Westminster has been extracting the oil as fast as it possibly can to maximise revenue.

Etc.

[JeMeSouviens]

"While Scottish independence would have immediate economic costs, history suggests there are long-term benefits"

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/scottish-independence-cost/

Article temporarily down. Is someone at the LSE getting their knuckles well and truly rapped. :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

That LSE article: I whisked it out of google's cache, pasted below. :wink:


Check the 2nd author though, no wonder he's getting his knuckles rapped. :faf:

Looking forward to comparing the new version if it comes back. :hmmm:


About the Authors

Richard Mackenzie-Gray Scott is a Research Fellow at the Bingham Centre for the Rule of Law, British Institute of International and Comparative Law.

Geoffrey Chapman is an Economic Adviser at the Department for International Trade, UK Government.



By contrasting Scotland and England to the Slovak Republic and Czech Republic’s ‘Velvet Divorce’, and Geoffrey Chapman suggest that an independent Scotland will continue growing real GDP per capita despite higher trade costs.

In light of the ongoing challenges facing the UK, the idea of Scottish independence seems unpalatable to many, but the news implies strong support. The Scottish government has recently published draft legislation for the holding of another referendum. Numerous polls suggest that a majority vote for independence would occur should this referendum go ahead. Although polls do not necessarily reflect what people will actually vote for at a particular moment in time, the political momentum for another referendum is growing. This pressure will be amplified should the SNP win a majority in the upcoming Scottish Parliamentary elections.

While this remains unclear, the Scottish Parliament may have the constitutional authority to legislate for another referendum without the involvement of the UK government and Parliament. This question can only be definitively settled with a ruling from the UK Supreme Court, one that might not come. Litigating this matter is not necessarily desirable. The courts afford deference to the Scottish Parliament, and there are reasons for being hesitant towards becoming entangled with, and potentially hindering, the legislative process of a democratically elected parliament.

If the current UK government opposes such a course of action, the ways in which the law may prevent the Scottish Parliament alone from legislating for a (non-binding) referendum will need to be clearly articulated. This would be a challenging case to make, because arguing that holding another referendum affects the UK assumes the potential result, which cannot be known in advance. The result of a referendum cannot retroactively determine the legality of holding it. And even if favouring independence, the force of such a result would be more political than legal. This is because the UK Parliament would need to become involved in order to give legal effect to that result, similar to how it was necessary in order to give legal effect to the EU referendum result.

Scotland could also attempt unilateral secession from the UK, which would arguably flout constitutional law and make the applicable international law more relevant. At present, Scotland satisfies all the international legal criteria for statehood, with one exception: it lacks the formal authority to enter into foreign relations, even though it has the literal ability to do so. Consequently, if Scotland demonstrated independence from UK authority in the course of conducting international relations, Scotland would be more likely recognised as a state by other states and international organisations. Furthermore, if voting at the UN General Assembly is anything to go by, we see no immediate reasons why other states would side with a UK position (assuming it opposed secession).

While becoming independent would have immediate economic costs, the long-term view suggests there are benefits. By contrasting Scotland and England to the Slovak Republic and Czech Republic’s ‘Velvet Divorce’, our research suggests that an independent Scotland will continue growing real GDP per capita despite higher trade costs. Following the ‘Velvet Divorce’ in 1993, the Czech and Slovak Republics faced additional border costs in their bilateral trade, not least because the Czech Republic kept the Czech Koruna, whereas the Slovak Republic adopted the Euro. By analysing the bilateral comprehensive trade costs from the ESCAP-World Bank Trade Cost Database, we note that for the Czech Republic, the Slovak Republic’s trade costs have always been lower than Germany’s (which becomes the largest trading partner for both states post-independence). In 1995, trade costs between the Czech Republic and Slovak Republic were equivalent to 35%, whereas between the Czech Republic and Germany, trade costs were equivalent to 56%. The Slovak Republic presents with similar patterns in that trade costs between the Slovak Republic and Czech Republic have always been lower than trade costs between the Slovak Republic and Germany.

In the years post-independence, it is apparent that the Czech Republic substituted their exports and imports away from the Slovak Republic; the Slovak Republic did the same, substituting their exports and imports away from the Czech Republic, both in favour of Germany. Despite international trade rebalancing in favour of Germany, a trade partner with higher trade costs, real GDP per capita continued growing. It is contextually important to note that for the economically smaller state, the Slovak Republic quite quickly (over six or so years) substituted away from what was its much larger, more significant, export partner to what was a much smaller partner. That is to say, the Slovak Republic’s exports to Germany were nearly three times less than to the Czech Republic in 1993, but as of 2019, the Slovak Republic’s exports to Germany were nearly two times greater than to the Czech Republic. While the change was less significant regarding the Slovak Republic’s imports, the same shift occurred.

Extrapolating the above to England and Scotland, we look at key indicators of macroeconomic policy for Scotland (see Table 1) compared to the Czech and Slovak Republics. Where Scottish estimates could not be found or calculated, we include UK data as a proxy, included in square brackets. According to official statistics, Scotland’s current GDP increased steadily between 1998 and 2019, climbing from £85,204 million to £177,106 million (equivalent to 107.9% growth for the period, or 5% annually).



Regarding the available trade data between 2002 and 2018, Scotland’s export shares are relatively stable. In 2002, Scotland exported 23% to the EU, 18% to non-EU, and 58% to the rest of the UK. The rest of the UK’s share peaked in 2007 at 67%, when the EU received 16% and non-EU 17%. However, the rest of the UK’s share has tapered off since and as of 2018, was standing at 60% (with the EU receiving 19% and non-EU 21%). Since 2007, counterbalancing the downward trajectory of the rest of the UK’s share has been an increasing trend in Scotland’s non-EU trade, rising from 17% to 21% in 2018. Scotland’s top five international export destinations accounted for £15.1 billion of all exports in 2018, with the top five markets being the US, France, Netherlands, Germany and Belgium. The US remains Scotland’s top international export destination, accounting for an estimated £5.5 billion in 2018.

Moreover, Scotland’s exports to the EU grew by an average of 4% per year over the last five years, and since 2010, growth to the EU outpaced growth to the rest of the world and the rest of the UK by a significant margin. Scotland is not only becoming more economically integrated with the EU (see here), but seemingly also with non-EU partners. Scotland’s historic economic performance has been strong, which bodes well for a small, open and independent Scotland. With modest population growth alongside good GDP growth, supported by stable participation in international trade, it seems Scotland is in a far better initial condition than either the Czech or Slovak Republics, and can therefore expect similar (if not better) post-independence outcomes.

In light of long-run economic growth and stability, it might be worthwhile for Scotland to attempt entering into foreign relations with other states and international organisations if there was no cooperation from the UK to take forward another referendum result favouring independence. A key factor is that if the UK did not respect any future referendum result favouring independence, unilateral Scottish secession would become more legitimate, meaning international recognition of Scotland as an independent state would arguably be more likely. Although the UK currently respects the right of Scots to self-determination, this would no longer be the case if the UK did not take the appropriate steps to implement a referendum result favouring independence.

With regional stability in the interests of all parties, any referendum favouring Scottish independence should be enacted through a staged approach to secession in compliance with constitutional law to minimise the economic cost on the UK and Scotland. The rule of law should be at the heart of any Scottish secession to allow for the best possible economic outcomes for people in Scotland and the UK. Such a process also depends on the politics between the UK and Scottish governments being cooperative, open-minded, and transparent. Nevertheless, although political amicability between the UK and Scotland is preferable, it is not indispensable for Scotland to become independent and continue prospering thereafter, particularly if Scotland negotiates access to the EU single market.

Considering Scotland has all the necessary machinery in place to become an independent state, we see no obvious reasons why Scotland would not succeed economically if it were to do so, especially if achieved within the bounds of the law. Although our findings might be controversial to some, we hope to show that Scottish independence, while not inevitable, is far more nuanced a matter than many have claimed. There exist several options worth pursuing for the parties to this debate.

[lapsedhibee]

Looking forward to comparing the new version if it comes back. :hmmm:

Looking forward to comparing the new version of DfIT adviser. :hmmm:

[Just Alf]

That LSE article: I whisked it out of google's cache, pasted below. :wink:


Check the 2nd author though, no wonder he's getting his knuckles rapped. :faf:

Looking forward to comparing the new version if it comes back. :hmmm:Interesting read... so unless an iScotland is a basket case then there would be light at the end of an economic tunnel which would be around ten times shorter than rees-mogs 50 years for a Brexit benefit.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting read... so unless an iScotland is a basket case then there would be light at the end of an economic tunnel which would be around ten times shorter than rees-mogs 50 years for a Brexit benefit.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

It is and is the sort of thing that those "without a dog in the fight" generally say about Scottish Indy. The fact that it comes from a UK gov adviser is :shocked::greengrin

[CloudSquall]

The point of the potential growth in trade with the EU and a weakening of the "reliance" on rUk trade is definitely a point that needs promoted a lot more from the Yes side, especially given Ireland's transition away from trade with the UK to trade with the EU.

The challenge is convincing people the potential short term economic shock is worth it.

[Hibrandenburg]

I just keep hearing unionists not arguing the case for the union, instead they're just arguing why the people of Scotland shouldn't have the right to choose. This is what will win the day for independence parties.

[ronaldo7]

I just keep hearing unionists not arguing the case for the union, instead they're just arguing why the people of Scotland shouldn't have the right to choose. This is what will win the day for independence parties.

In fairness, the question about the case for the union has only been asked on here a zillion times. Maybe they're all doing their chores.

[Jack]

In fairness, the question about the case for the union has only been asked on here a zillion times. Maybe they're all doing their chores.

The case for the union is that it needs Scotlands input financially to survive.

To admit that would be to admit that Scotland has been lied to for decades, maybe centuries, and fuel the case for independence even more.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210403/7c1de40db3dde3212b6e0e2fe0de4f0a.jpg


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[Ozyhibby]

https://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/html5/reader/get_clipping.aspx?edid=25c3af48-7e18-47b1-be7a-84be1523f91b&pnum=10&timestamp=20210404091717749


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[cabbageandribs1875]

it's maybe a comic but i agree absolutely 110%, come on engerlund do the right thing, go on, dare ya


https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/169310159_1656596161194696_7284350972971809491_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=DQ26oPCoXHQAX_pf7hr&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=41c76fca578d1b2301c5f3e0711f35ac&oe=608E9433

[Bostonhibby]

it's maybe a comic but i agree absolutely 110%, come on engerlund do the right thing, go on, dare ya


https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/169310159_1656596161194696_7284350972971809491_n.j pg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=DQ26oPCoXHQAX_pf7hr&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=41c76fca578d1b2301c5f3e0711f35ac&oe=608E9433Well, if it's an expert AND the Express we're talking about that's it the end is nigh.

Who are they going to blame for the shambles next, my guess would be Covid, already being wheeled out by the apologists whenever a brexit mess is mentioned.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[CloudSquall]

Fully agree, time for those south of the border to finally get rid of those whingeing scrounging sweaty socks.

[cabbageandribs1875]

state TV would be relentless, they didn't have one article about PoS Johnson last weekend, not ONE

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/169123183_1138239196589472_2512517254507852971_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=tHS2p-1onAAAX_H9Q51&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=b275965f27d958fc47300e36a7d1de67&oe=6092A4E3

[Kato]

"Compliant Media"

[Jones28]

"Compliant Media"

I’d go one further and suggest the majority of our print media are co-conspirators.

[cabbageandribs1875]

our wonderful first minister visiting Sunny Leith this morning

https://i.ibb.co/16bs0M0/168879377-3943049992418469-4258439741937547299-n.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[lapsedhibee]

our wonderful first minister visiting Sunny Leith this morning

https://i.ibb.co/16bs0M0/168879377-3943049992418469-4258439741937547299-n.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Who's the boy with one leg a foot longer than the other? :dunno:

[Callyballybe]

Who's the boy with one leg a foot longer than the other? :dunno:

Ben MacPherson - MSP for Edinburgh North/Leith.

[nairn hibee]

Who's the boy with one leg a foot longer than the other? :dunno:
Looks like she’s got her begging bowl out again

[cabbageandribs1875]

Who's the boy with one leg a foot longer than the other? :dunno:


:hilarious

[lapsedhibee]

Ben MacPherson - MSP for Edinburgh North/Leith.
:aok:

[heretoday]

Who's the boy with one leg a foot longer than the other? :dunno:

Alex McShortie - local factory owner.

[Keith_M]

our wonderful first minister visiting Sunny Leith this morning

https://i.ibb.co/16bs0M0/168879377-3943049992418469-4258439741937547299-n.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)


Was her journey considered essential?


I'm a bit disappointed that she's swanning around the banks of TWoL, spreading the Weegie Variation of Covid.

:tsk tsk:

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1611550/8253387-towards-a-more-relaxed-union-britishness-in-a-changing-world-with-alex-massie?client_source=twitter_card&player_type=full_screen


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[Jack]

Was her journey considered essential?


I'm a bit disappointed that she's swanning around the banks of TWoL, spreading the Weegie Variation of Covid.

:tsk tsk:

I take it you've not been reading recent posts on this thread or be aware that there's a number of Scottish Government office buildings, where she has a base within a mile or two from where the photo was taken.

[Keith_M]

I take it you've not been reading recent posts on this thread or be aware that there's a number of Scottish Government office buildings, where she has a base within a mile or two from where the photo was taken.


Actually, it was a joke.

[StevieC]

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1611550/8253387-towards-a-more-relaxed-union-britishness-in-a-changing-world-with-alex-massie?client_source=twitter_card&player_type=full_screen


Jeez, that boy can slaver for fun!

[Jack]

actually, it was a joke.

ok :-)

[JeMeSouviens]

Today's Ipsos MORI had Y52 N48.

[Colr]

Today's Ipsos MORI had Y52 N48.

And Bojo the Clown contends that 52% is a clear and unassailable vote in favour, as I recall.

[ballengeich]

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/19216973.douglas-ross-says-world-cup-final-held-hampden-part-joint-uk-bid/

That'll show these separatists.

[Jones28]

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/19216973.douglas-ross-says-world-cup-final-held-hampden-part-joint-uk-bid/

That'll show these separatists.

On what planet are they going to choose Hampden to host the final over Wembley, or even the Principality in Cardiff? Both stadiums are bigger and better.

[lapsedhibee]

On what planet are they going to choose Hampden to host the final over Wembley, or even the Principality in Cardiff? Both stadiums are bigger and better.

Murray Ross in 'slavering out loud' shock.

[Killiehibbie]

On what planet are they going to choose Hampden to host the final over Wembley, or even the Principality in Cardiff? Both stadiums are bigger and better.

It wouldn't be in the top 20. Maybe make the top 3 in Glasgow.

[JeMeSouviens]

On what planet are they going to choose Hampden to host the final over Wembley, or even the Principality in Cardiff? Both stadiums are bigger and better.

Presumably the planet where it's a "union of equals", "family of nations", etc. :rolleyes:

Chances of it being in Cardiff absolutely zero too, btw.

Although even if it were a UoE, nobody in their right mind would choose Hampden anyway, because it's small and crap.

[Hibs90]

Is there a 'English Independence Party'?

Perhaps someone should start one...you know since Scotland is such a drain on England's finances. :wink:

[Hiber-nation]

Is there a 'English Independence Party'?

Perhaps someone should start one...you know since Scotland is such a drain on England's finances. :wink:

https://twitter.com/englishindparty

[JeMeSouviens]

Opinium Y51 N49

After the brief flurry of polls with No in the lead, Yes has definitely retaken it, albeit it's small margins.

If you look at recent polls and include the Don't Knows, No support didn't increase when they had the lead. There was a bit of Y-DK that has gone back to Y.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210408/85069f08a4dd11da7c50f819b2727d2a.jpg

Unionists now advocating partitioning Scotland like they did Ireland.


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[SHODAN]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210408/85069f08a4dd11da7c50f819b2727d2a.jpg

Unionists now advocating partitioning Scotland like they did Ireland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aye I mind when Galloway said Scotland should be able to remain in the EU.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210408/85069f08a4dd11da7c50f819b2727d2a.jpg

Unionists now advocating partitioning Scotland like they did Ireland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That was always going to be on the cards. Look what happened within the former Yugoslavia. Who knows how extremist Unionists will react to being separated from what they see as their government and country. The potential for unrest is very real.

[hibsbollah]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210408/85069f08a4dd11da7c50f819b2727d2a.jpg

Unionists now advocating partitioning Scotland like they did Ireland.


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It’s not a bad idea really. We could ‘Do a Crimea’ and annexe Fife. That should please Salmond and his 2% anyway.

[Keith_M]

This is just a repetition of something similar from the last referendum, where Project Fear kept putting out stories of the Shetland Islands right... and desire... to remain in the UK in the event of Scottish Independence.

The biggest problem with that was that there had been a couple of Polls taken in Shetland that showed overwhelming support for remaining a part of Scotland (as they have been for over 500 years).

[Rumble de Thump]

Is that hat glued to his head?

[weecounty hibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210408/85069f08a4dd11da7c50f819b2727d2a.jpg

Unionists now advocating partitioning Scotland like they did Ireland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

From a man who was a huge advocate for Irish unification. Although that may not be paying as well these days as his current paymasters. Fud of a man

[Kato]

From a man who was a huge advocate for Irish unification. Although that may not be paying as well these days as his current paymasters. Fud of a manHe's now a man who is a huge advocate of causing arguments in empty houses.

The sound of his own voice is the most important thing in his life.

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[Bostonhibby]

Is that hat glued to his head?I just can't help thinking he's poor old Penelope Pitstops nemesis The Hooded Claw.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210408/777b66360169d289f0d01a7e3588ae0e.jpg

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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/drowning-the-sorrows-of-scotlands-virulent-nationalism/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Hard to know where to start?


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[DaveF]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/drowning-the-sorrows-of-scotlands-virulent-nationalism/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Hard to know where to start?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can only assume the boy drank the full bottle before writing that horse****.

[Ozyhibby]

I can only assume the boy drank the full bottle before writing that horse****.

Dangerous stuff when the Spectator is openly contemplating Sturgeon’s death.


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[Peevemor]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/drowning-the-sorrows-of-scotlands-virulent-nationalism/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Hard to know where to start?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's awful! I only scanned it and read 2-3 sentences - that was enough.

[JeMeSouviens]

Dangerous stuff when the Spectator is openly contemplating Sturgeon’s death.


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They are also carrying a whingeathon from English nationalist Simon Heffer that refers to the “Maoist SNP”. Actual LOLZ. :faf:

[Smartie]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/drowning-the-sorrows-of-scotlands-virulent-nationalism/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Hard to know where to start?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That article is a disgrace.

I accept and respect that some people may have reservations about independence, that some people might not not really rate us and that some folk might reasonably ultimately come to a different conclusion re independence.

For anyone to carry around that amount of self-loathing however is just frightening.

Utter garbage which, of course, the English nationalist audience would lap up.

Virulent nationalism indeed.

[CloudSquall]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/drowning-the-sorrows-of-scotlands-virulent-nationalism/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Hard to know where to start?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It would be hard to find more ultimate self loathing cringe than that, hoepfully a part of the unioinist mindset that we lose upon independence that currently holds us back.

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/drowning-the-sorrows-of-scotlands-virulent-nationalism/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Hard to know where to start?


Didn't really find that any worse than most/all the other Spectator articles on Scotland you've linked to recently. I get that it's sound practice to listen to all sides, however fanciful, but the Spectator has just been relentlessly pumping out nonsense about Scotland. Best ignored.

[lapsedhibee]

They are also carrying a whingeathon from English nationalist Simon Heffer that refers to the “Maoist SNP”. Actual LOLZ. :faf:
I'm not up on far flung dictatorships from history. Is that worse than, or not as bad as, the previous "Stalinist" description? :dunno:

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/drowning-the-sorrows-of-scotlands-virulent-nationalism/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Hard to know where to start?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I lost count of the amount of times I cringed whilst reading that. Problem is that that sort of thing gets lapped up by some.

[Kato]

That's awful! I only scanned it and read 2-3 sentences - that was enough.If anyone can wade through to end there is a wee explanation on how Thatcher was good for Scotland.

On another planet this guy.

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[Jones28]

Didn't really find that any worse than most/all the other Spectator articles on Scotland you've linked to recently. I get that it's sound practice to listen to all sides, however fanciful, but the Spectator has just been relentlessly pumping out nonsense about Scotland. Best ignored.

I’ve read a fair few spectator articles linked to this site. That one is by far and away the worst.

The most out of touch, patronising, sanctimonious ***** I think I’ve ever read on the subject of independence.

Talk about reading the room: shall we start off with a £90 bottle of whisky?

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210410/4d04741f7d5a78d02e7a4cad591117e4.jpg

All about priorities I suppose.


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[Jones28]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210410/4d04741f7d5a78d02e7a4cad591117e4.jpg

All about priorities I suppose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s all good, think of the Barnett consequential; we might be able to fund a spliff for all Scots on Fridays at 4:20

[Ozyhibby]

It’s all good, think of the Barnett consequential; we might be able to fund a spliff for all Scots on Fridays at 4:20

Unfortunately because of all the benefits Scotland will get from the big boat, there won’t be any Barnett consequentials.


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[Jones28]

Unfortunately because of all the benefits Scotland will get from the big boat, there won’t be any Barnett consequentials.


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Oh well.

Yay big boat 🙄

[Bostonhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210410/4d04741f7d5a78d02e7a4cad591117e4.jpg

All about priorities I suppose.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLet's hope he doesn't use the same consultants he employed for the London garden Bridge for this vanity project or the royals will be rowing their own dinghy.

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[Crunchie]

I lost count of the amount of times I cringed whilst reading that. Problem is that that sort of thing gets lapped up by some.
I thought it was a good read :aok:

[Hibrandenburg]

I thought it was a good read :aok:

Quelle surprise!

[DaveF]

I thought it was a good read :aok:

Lol. Yep, that's just the sort of thing an ex SNP, now Tory right winger would lap up.

You'll have to forgive me for thinking that anything you type is a load of old *****.

[Crunchie]

Lol. Yep, that's just the sort of thing an ex SNP, now Tory right winger would lap up.

You'll have to forgive me for thinking that anything you type is a load of old *****.
I didn't say I agreed with it all of it did I ? but thanks for the input, Dave :aok:

[Kato]

I didn't say I agreed with it all of it did I ? but thanks for the input, Dave :aok:

Which part did you disagree with?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Lol. Yep, that's just the sort of thing an ex SNP, now Tory right winger would lap up.

You'll have to forgive me for thinking that anything you type is a load of old *****.


i'm sure no one fell for that one :)

[Keith_M]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/drowning-the-sorrows-of-scotlands-virulent-nationalism/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Hard to know where to start?


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That's unbelievable that a Scotsman would write that.

What's his name; Uncle Tom McLickarse?

[Keith_M]

I thought it was a good read :aok:


Lord Haw-Haw's still here, I see.

[MartinfaePorty]

So many generalisations and fantasies in there I don't know where to start. Another right-winger harking back to the good old days of the Empire.

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[Keith_M]

Union In Peril

'The pandemic has seeded the idea of a prime minister “who speaks for England alone” as relations between the four nations of the UK deteriorate amid “deep-rooted complacency”, a senior former civil servant has warned.

There is widespread ignorance towards the union, meaning ministers can be kept in the dark about major reforms with little consideration for the four nations, Philip Rycroft, the permanent secretary to the Brexit department until 2019, says in a report.'


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/apr/12/union-in-peril-as-pm-speaks-for-england-alone-former-civil-servant-warns

[JeMeSouviens]

Interesting from former high ranking UK gov civil servant ...


. Denying a referendum will change the Union

Despite assertions that the UK is a voluntary partnership, No 10 refuses to let the people decide again on independence

Ciaran Martin
Tuesday April 13 2021, 12.01am, The Times


In the middle of the noisiest election since the establishment of the Scottish parliament, there is one crucial, overlooked fact.

The position of the United Kingdom government is that there is no lawful, democratic path to achieving Scottish independence for an unspecified number of decades.

That’s regardless of how Scotland votes next month or beyond. Various ministers have speculated about the length of “quarantine” that must elapse from 2014 before Scotland is allowed to choose its future again.

For the Scotland secretary, it’s not until at least 2039, a quarter of a century from 2014. For the prime minister, it should be the same gap as between the two votes on Europe, taking us to 2055.

This marks an extraordinary change in our understanding of the Anglo-Scottish union. It was forged in pre-democratic times. But since at least the departure of most of Ireland a century ago, there’s been an implicit, and more recently explicit, understanding that any part of the British union could leave if it wants.

In 2011 David Cameron’s coalition was faced with a pro-referendum majority in the Scottish parliament, even though the issue did not feature much in the election campaign. Cameron wrote in his memoirs that a “referendum was unavoidable: people had voted for it; we would deliver it”. Thus came an agreement between London and Edinburgh. The key measure — a Section 30 order — is now treated as some sort of constitutional tablet of stone.

In fact, it was a hastily improvised arrangement to avoid Westminster imposing the rules of a referendum, or, worse, the whole thing ending up in court. What the deal reflected was a profound understanding that the historic Union was an equal partnership based on consent.

Tragically, Westminster lost interest in the Union the moment Scotland narrowly consented to remain in the UK. It might have been expected that London would pursue some agreed — or even imposed — rules about what staying in the Union meant, as Canada did after its own near-death experience with Quebec in 1995. But attention turned instead to England’s disquiets: first, on the day of the referendum result, with the announcement of English votes for English laws and then, fatefully, to Brexit.

Britain’s delicate constitutional balance has subsequently shattered. After 2014 it was briefly fashionable to describe the UK as”‘quasi-federal”. This nonsense was exploded by the Brexit vote which showed that a large majority of Scots could and would be overruled and ignored on a critically important issue.


The UK’s negotiating mandate was not a UK-wide one; it was what Downing Street could get past its English backbench MPs. The restraint with which England has historically treated its dominant position within the Union was abandoned.

The post-Brexit constitutional settlement is thus a “Greater England” one. It has demonstrated the impossibility of true federalism in the UK at a time when the core political arrangements that have sustained the Union over the centuries are collapsing. Just 20 years ago, the Blair cabinet contained a record number of Scottish MPs. Now, because of the SNP’s dominance, neither major UK party has a leading figure sitting for a Scottish constituency.

There’s no rulebook for what happens now. To resist a referendum, UK ministers are relying on the Yes campaign’s “once in a generation” soundbite from 2014. But that was just a slogan, with about as much constitutional standing as the £350 million for the NHS on the Brexit bus. It doesn’t bind today’s voters.

The best measure we have of Scotland’s consent for the Union remains its parliamentary elections. If there is a pro-referendum majority (and this is absolutely not the same thing as an SNP majority), there is no good reason to resist one. Nor is there any reason to alter a set of rules that commanded the confidence of both sides in 2014. Fear of a different result isn’t a reason to ignore Scotland’s election result.

What should be different is any referendum campaign. If nationalists again try to assert that independence means little change, voters should show their derision. Independence inevitably means some form of border with England, a different currency, a wait to join the EU, a huge fiscal challenge, and significant administrative disruption. The challenge for nationalists is to convince sceptics that joining the ranks of small, successful northern European states will be worth it. But voters should be equally dismissive of any repeat of Unionist assertions that an independent Scotland would be perpetually broke or alone.

Much would depend on choices made by Scottish voters and a sovereign Scottish government after independence. Demands that voters must know “exactly” what independence will mean are designed to be impossible to meet. Any major constitutional change involves risk, opportunity, certainty and unknowables, as this government knows better than most. Scottish voters will know enough to make an informed decision.

The more pressing question is whether Scotland is allowed to make this choice at all. If you support independence, you have always known that there is a path to it if you convince enough people to vote for it. That is what the UK government proposes to change. London can block a referendum even if Scotland votes for one.

But that changes the Union we know, based on consent, to one that survives only through force of law. Some democracies, such as Spain, do not allow votes on break-up. Spain does not claim to be a voluntary partnership of willing nations. Britain does. But is it?

Prof Ciaran Martin was the UK government’s lead civil servant during the negotiation of the Edinburgh Agreement talks which paved the way for the 2014 Scottish Independence referendum. He is professor of Practice in the Management of Public Organisations at Oxford University.

[Moulin Yarns]

Interesting from former high ranking UK gov civil servant ...

👍

[Ozyhibby]

Interesting from former high ranking UK gov civil servant ...

I really hope Johnson refuses the referendum. It will still happen because that’s an unsustainable position but the refusal will be worth its weight in gold.


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[SHODAN]

I really hope Johnson refuses the referendum. It will still happen because that’s an unsustainable position but the refusal will be worth its weight in gold.


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A refusal will be issued the minute the SNP win a majority. It's how long that lasts that will be interesting.

[Ozyhibby]

A refusal will be issued the minute the SNP win a majority. It's how long that lasts that will be interesting.

I’m not so sure. There are some senior people around him that will be smart enough to know how dumb a move it will be. It’s whether he takes their advice.


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[BSEJVT]

As someone who would likely vote now for Independence though, who wouldn't have before, the one thing that sits uneasily with me over this IndyRef2 now argument is how regularly can this battle be fought?

It is not something IMO that should be fought regularly as it is hugely disruptive and destabilising both for the people of the country and its economy and government.

What happens if 5 years down the line after independence folk think WTF and want to go back?

I think it was 40 years between referendums the last time?

That is too long but 20 seems a bit more realistic to me personally.

It is a huge huge deal far different to a change in a political party running the same country

[JeMeSouviens]

As someone who would likely vote now for Independence though, who wouldn't have before, the one thing that sits uneasily with me over this IndyRef2 now argument is how regularly can this battle be fought?

It is not something IMO that should be fought regularly as it is hugely disruptive and destabilising both for the people of the country and its economy and government.

What happens if 5 years down the line after independence folk think WTF and want to go back?

I think it was 40 years between referendums the last time?

That is too long but 20 seems a bit more realistic to me personally.

It is a huge huge deal far different to a change in a political party running the same country

It's a thorny one. I don't think you can legislate a fixed length of time between referendums when nothing else in the UK constitution is fixed. For example, the UK could repeal the Scotland act and abolish the Scottish parliament the day after any ref if it wanted to. Essentially, as Brexit has shown, if you have any majority in the House of Commons, you can ultimately do anything you like.

I think it would be unreasonable to try and hold a second referendum without going back to the people at an election and winning a majority in parliament on a clear manifesto commitment. Ultimately, if it keeps failing, then people will get tired of it and move on.

As for what happens if people want to go back. If re-Unionism exists and can do the same thing, ie. put it in a manifesto, win an election and then win a referendum, then they will have won the right to go back to rUK and attempt to negotiate a way back. I can't see that ever happening, and obviously rUK may very well either tell Scotland to gtf or attempt to impose punitive terms, but that would be democracy, I guess. :dunno:

[Jack]

As someone who would likely vote now for Independence though, who wouldn't have before, the one thing that sits uneasily with me over this IndyRef2 now argument is how regularly can this battle be fought?

It is not something IMO that should be fought regularly as it is hugely disruptive and destabilising both for the people of the country and its economy and government.

What happens if 5 years down the line after independence folk think WTF and want to go back?

I think it was 40 years between referendums the last time?

That is too long but 20 seems a bit more realistic to me personally.

It is a huge huge deal far different to a change in a political party running the same country

Interesting.

If the people of Scotland keep voting for a party with an independence referendum in its manifesto and then not voting for independence come the vote this could go on forever!

If following independence a reunionist party came to power with rejoining the UK in its manifesto then so be it. Off we go again lol. I'm not aware of it ever happening anywhere else in the world though!